A long and winding drive takes us to the residence of Pakistan Prime MinisterShaukat Aziz, located on an elevation in Islamabad. The elegant residence is farmore sophisticated and plush than the home of his Indian counterpart. Over a cupof tea and snacks, the former banker and finance minister, projected as the faceof modern Pakistan, spoke to Saba Naqvi Bhaumik for close to an hour both ontape and off the record. Full text of the interview, excerpts from which appearin print magazine:
India has called off the peace process after the Mumbai blasts and pointeda finger at Pakistan.
Terrorism in general is something we all have to fight. It knows noborders. The world has realised we have to fight this scourge together. It candamage all humanity today and tomorrow. The incidents in Mumbai are deplorableand the president and I immediately gave statements condemning this. Theauthorities in India and here are investigating and we have said that if youwant Pakistan to help in any way all, please tell us. But I am sure they are atit and these things are complicated and need thorough investigation. As regardspointing fingers, with the investigation just having got off the ground, it isdifficult to point fingers at anybody.
But your own president regularly talks about growing extremism andconservatism. There is a belief that Pakistan has become a jihad factory.
Pakistan is a peaceful country. It is a fast growing economy. The Pakistanof today and tomorrow is not the Pakistan of yesterday. But clearly we have lotsmore to do. People practice their faith no matter where you are in the world, andevery faith has seminaries which teach people to practice and propagate theirfaith. So I think this is a bit overstated.
The events going back severaldecades to the war in Afghanistan and the take-over by the Soviets, changed theparadigm in the entire region. Young Muslims were recruited from all overthe world by major powers and trained to fight the Soviets. The Sovietswithdrew, the occupation of Afghanistan ended, and the people who brought theseyouth to take part in the struggle left faster than anybody. That was the sowingof the seeds of certain elements that felt disenfranchised, and wronged. Andwhen everybody left, Afghanistan became a free for all. These fighters didn'twant to go back and got refuge in Afghanistan. People in this part of the worldare very hospitable. Even in Pakistan we had millions of refugees. We still havethree million, even today. That was the seeds of Al Qaeda and the world startednoticing what is going on in these parts only after 9/11.
Since then all of ushave tried to deal with the situation, to look at why people behave in a certainway. The world also realised the intensity and globality of the challenge. Andif you look at the history of the world, you will see that extreme behaviourmanifests itself in many forms. And to link it to a particular faith orgeography is, frankly, simplistic. There are root causes we need to look at. Beingnext to Afghanistan, Pakistan has had a fallout and has tried to manage it. Thenumber of strikes in Pakistan has come down dramatically. It has taken hardwork, and very good policing. Yesterday I had all the police chiefs of the countryin my conference room down the hall. We talked about the mind-set that causespeople to do certain things.
Do you dispute that there may be groups in Pakistan that hate India?
In my view the security of any country is the responsibility of thecountry. These are all speculative views. You may have a view about a country,but that does not mean you will go and do what happened in Mumbai. We are a veryopen country and people have many views. There may be people here or in theregions with different views about India but that means nothing.
You have been attacked once, two attempts on President Musharaff...
That was many years ago. If something happens in Pakistan, we tell oursecurity services to find out, get to the bottom of it, investigate, find. Wedon't blame anyone else. Karachi has had so much strife: sectarian andreligious. I have never been to Mumbai so I don't know the dynamics of thecity. From what I've seen in the press, the Mumbai thing was different.Synchronised blasts in trains. I think the answer lies in Mumbai. I'm sure theIndian government will get to the bottom of it.
There's a lot of talk in India about the Lashkar-e-Toiba (LeT) and itscurrent avatar, Jamaat-ud-Daawa. What is your understanding of thesegroups?
There is a lot of talk. We have said we will act if there is concreteevidence. These are people who have a view on Kashmir, always have. The LeT is abanned organisation. We don't see any evidence of their activity that isprejudicial. We've done a lot to transform some of these people. TheJammat-ud-Daawa did a lot of work after the earthquake.
You have met Manmohan Singh many times. Do you think he was keen on thepeace process before the Mumbai blasts? Or do you think India was looking for anexcuse to get out of it?
No, I don't think so. Look, a peace process only works when bothcountries see the benefit. Certainly, I can tell you about Pakistan. We feelthat peace and solution of the Kashmir problem will transform South Asia, wheremore people live below the poverty line than in Africa. So if we can get peace,we will be much better off than we are. But I believe you must have a passionfor peace. We in Pakistan, President Musharaf and I, have a passion for peace. Ihave yet to see this passion on the part of India. The real issue is thatPakistan wants peace.
Indian diplomacy complains that Pakistan hinges everything on Kashmir....
We think discussion on Kashmir is critical for sustainable peace. We havesuggested several ideas for discussion. We have also pursued a broad agenda. Westarted things such as the buses, LoC crossings and the trains. We never stoppedthem either, by the way. India stopped them at some point. Then they said, let'sstart. We said we are always ready. It takes two to tango.
You don't think India is tangoing?
No, they are, but they havetheir own domestic considerations. Having said that, there is progress. We havejust relaxed our visa policies. I think Indians also are included, as group tourscan come. We welcome Sikh and Hindu pilgrims. We are trying to build bridges. Indians are also moving but things have to move in tandem. They movesometimes, sometimes they get derailed.
There's again focus on a nuclear reactor in Pakistan....
There's nothing new about it. The Washington Post just found out. Ournuclear programme is a reaction to India's. We only started our programme tomaintain a balance in South Asia. We are not in an arms race. Our defenceexpenditure in the percentage of GDP is coming down.
Do you think people in Pakistan now believe in a clash of civilisations?
No I don't believe that civilisations can clash. But the gulf betweenvarious people is widening because of lack of trust, and fear. No religionpreaches hate or violence. It is our responsibility to stop this or we would bedoing a disservice to coming generations.
If India was to give you alist of terrorists would you act? President Musharaff has promised to help.
Every intelligence agency can give you lists. Let us talk and see what we cando to help each other. Lists are neither here nor there.
