'The Riots Were Taken So Lightly...'

One of the senior most and committed BJP and RSS leaders, Sunder SinghBhandari, 84, is extremely unhappy over the current state of affairs in the BJPand its future prospects. Apart from being a RSS pracharak, Jan Sangh general-secretary, andformer BJP vice-president, he also played a significant role in strengtheningthe BJP in many states across the country. After the BJP came to power, heserved first as the governor of Bihar and then of Gujarat at the time of Godhraand the subsequent violence. Despite holding high offices, he is known for his spartanlifestyle. Bhandari spoke to Outlook Saptahik's Narendra Bhalla about thecurrent state of affairs in the party and the blot of the Gujarat riots.Excerpts from the interview

As an experienced leader of the RSS, the Jan Sangh and the BJP, what would you say about the currentstate of affairs in the BJP?

Earlier, care used to be taken while choosing allies before the elections,but gradually this consideration was abandoned. We compromised and madeadjustments even for such people about whom it is not possible to speak withconfidence. They are extremely selfish people engaged in illegal activities thatthe party does not generally condone. And then there was a scramble to choosesuch a president who could draw a large crowd. The trouble was that, in the lastfew years, this "crowd-pulling" tendency also crept into theorganisation. People lacking ideological and organisational skills becamedominant in the party. 

Do you think that in the past 10-15 years, many people who have got nothing to do with Sangh’s ideology, or ideals, have started crowding theBJP?

Absolutely. They neither they felt the necessity nor did the central leadershiphave any time. A training camp does not make anyone a party man.

Do you feel that the BJP too erred in its pursuit of power?

Yes, of course. As I said, the party was caught up in power-play. After that,many top leaders also commented that the party was formed in pursuit of power and thatthat ideology-shideology could take a back seat. 'Ideology first' wasturned on its head. Staying in power became paramount and politics is reduced tomanipulations -- fixing -- just that. BJP too has become just like any other party.

So who is responsible for that? The present senior leadership or Pramod Mahajan type second generation of leaders?

I don’t take names. After all, a party works collectively, and so the partycollectively is responsible for it. Now the situation is such that there is ascramble to make people of one's choice as MPs and MLAs.

Do you think that the five-star culture has begun to dominate the party?

I would emphasise that if we talk about the common man, our own behaviour andlife-style should also be like the average Indian's. The party leaders haveincreased this gulf after coming to power. Now, this five-star culture, hotel culture, corporate culture,sermonising etc. can pull a lot of crowd, but they do not a party make. Largegatherings are organised, but nobody has the guts to go and talk to the people. Today, victory and defeat have become the prime objective in the party, and the real objectives havebeen sidelined. The ideals and ideology of the Sangh has been marginalised. Now a person is loyal to the party as long as he is given someoffice, a ticket or some position. Otherwise he would start looking for place inanother party. Commitment is gone.

Is there no body other than Advani capable enough to become the party president?

That's what I am saying. Advani was president many years ago. After him, threeor four presidents followed for short intervals. For six months, or a year. Andnow again Advani has became the president. It's become an  ‘Advani to Advani’ race.Even now, if there was need for a change (after Venkaiah Naidu), someone newshould have been brought. Otherwise, it  seems as if the party has gone ‘out-of-stock’.There used to be lot of talk that a second-rank leadership  was ready. Now people ask:Where has that second rank gone? People who ask this question are absolutely right.

But those who are in this second rank are also busy in factionalism and pulling eachother down?

If each and every one of them is analysed individually, you will find lack of commitmenta major factor. But, in the end, it is the seniors who have to take a decision.Let them once decide that so and so will take the party forward. I wouldsay that the party should give up its obsession of coming back to power in the next elections, given the current state offactionalism in the party. Now is the time to take the BJP forward. And if powercomes, along the way, it's great. It would be satisfying too.

Is there no charismatic leader in the party other than Vajpayee who can become the Prime Minister?

But that is not all. You have to endeavour to create such a perception andposition. Now Advani too has to be brought into that position. Though people have startedlistening to Advani now, he has already created many controversies. You have tobe able to draw people to yourself by your conduct. That is important.

Who do you find most suitable in the second-level leadership?

Many of these ‘projections’ were made in the past five-six years. I am not a party office bearer since 1998 and haven’tinteracted with them. All these people have come into prominence only after 1998.Unless it is collectively analysed as to what were the basis, or compulsions,for bringing them into the forefront, it would not be appropriate to comment.

Do you agree with Sarsanghchalak K.S. Sudershan that Vajpayee and Advani should hand over the reins of the party to the younger generation?

This question too has arisen because leadership emerges on its own as a natural process in the organisation. If the organisation is working well, thenone needn't go out with a lamp in search of leaders. A person emerges as aleader because of his work and other people also realise that he or she is the right person to lead the party. But today, when the organisation has become weak, and so has its vision, you will not be able to find a capable person even if yousearch with thousand watt bulbs, leave alone a lamp.

Ideological differences among the party leaders are apparent?

The habit of collectively sitting together is vanishing from the party. Now people sit in separate groups.

But the party could also be revived by the second generation of leadership?

Of course, but that's why the recent infighting over names. Which is why therecent face-off between my-man versus your-man. You are betting on him? Here'smy horse. So now they stand, confronting each other. 

You were the governor of Gujarat during the post-Godhra riots. Why did it allhappen?

I had only one complaint: whatever action the government should have taken, was delayed. Iftimely action had been taken, a lot of things would not have happened.

Did you express your objections to the government?

When I spoke to the chief minister in the morning, I was told that action hadbeen initiated. But I maintained that it should have begun at night itself,which it wasn't. Four-six crucial hours were lost. There was a delay, and it wasmonumental. Now it has become a blot on the party. If the central leadership had reacted immediately,the situation wouldn't have so deteriorated. The central leadership took too much time to react. Removing Narendra Modi from chief ministership was one option but other optionstoo could have been explored. The riots were taken so lightly, which is why they caused a deep wound. Now try to healthat wound! The way Gandhi assassination case continued for fifty years, people will continue to remember Godhra for a long time. Ifthe situation had been controlled immediately, we would not have to face thissituation today. It was not projected correctly, and because of delayed action, riots continued for two more days. Otherwise, they would haveended on the first day itself. It would have been better if action had beeninitiated in the evening of the first day itself.

Is there any way the BJP can revive itself?

The party should throw out those with the ‘yes men’ image. The party shouldimmediately get rid of the people who are there only for their own self interest,who are not concerned with the party interest. There is no cause for concern ifa few people are angry because of  it. Today, there are a hundred people in the executive who justsit there, yawn, sleep, eat and then go away. You need a living structure. The party’s working committeemeet has been reduced to a mere outing.

But the Sangh chief Sudershan did caution Vajpayee on the working of Brajesh Mishra when the BJP was inpower...

Brajesh Mishra is "tiny talks". His importance is in running corruption, where is he in running the party?  You may keep ten such Brajesh Mishras,and nobody would stop you but first take control of yourself. Learn to stand up straight.Learn to be bold and express yourself. If ten people take advantage of that, then let them. Sudershanjiaimed and hit at a wrong place; there was no need to go into such detail. Whatcame out of this blame-game? Sudershanji has only weakened his position inpublic.

But after all Pramod Mahajan also arranges funds for the party?

It is not just Pramod Mahajan. We also collected crores of rupees during elections. But we kept record of each and every paisa. Which state and which candidate got howmuch -- it was all properly accounted for. And details of the expenditure werealways asked for and obtained. Today nobody knows who took how much money in thename of the party or who brought how much for the party. But if it becomes acase of  'he is my man, so I would give him 10 crores', it is not easy tomaintain records. Those who are in charge are more concerned with 'my men' thanabout maintaining accounts.