'If I'd Been Like Hitler, You Wouldn't Have Dared To Come And Interview Me'

Of course, there were stages. Twice there was a break. I left the Free Press Journal and then I was called back. I continued till 1959 as a staff cartoonist along with R.K. Laxman. Then finally I left. After a short journalistic venture which had to be wound up because of lack of finance, I started my own cartoon weekly, Marmik . And slowly I started getting complaints that we Maharashtrians were not getting jobs in what is now Mumbai. I just tried my best to ventilate the thing—that's all. But I never knew it was going to turn into this big organisation.

The Shiv Sena started as a sons-of-the-soil movement. But in the mid-'80s it acquired a pro-Hindu, anti-minority identity. What changed things?

It was there right from the beginning but it was not anti-anybody. There was no shift as such in my political thinking. You must understand I started my organisation to see the rights of the sons of soil are protected. Initially, we used to take morchas to mantralaya. A delegation would meet the chief minister over tea and biscuits. And whether there was a promise or not, you had to pretend to the audience that we got the promise. The usual nonsense in your democratic process. I found these tactics had their own limitations.

As for the mid-'80s shift, at that time we found that atrocities on Hindus were actually increasing in our own nation. It wasn't so much as it is today i.e. sabotage from ISI. But Pakistan started having some hand in our politics and internal affairs. And I found that the Centre was helpless, as it was before and even now. So I took it up. That's how we entered a major arena.

The Shiv Sena has never had organisational elections. What do you plan to do about the Election Commission directive that all parties must hold such polls?

I oppose somebody forcing parties to do things. I don't think it's the EC's job. We have our own way of doing things and democracy and democratic processes are not going to help us. They only lead to groupism and I have my own way of avoiding groupism. I've given an option—that's an open thing. As long as you accept me, I'm going to protect you. If you reject me, I'll just leave it. I won't sit in the chair like Narasimha Rao.

The Sena has always been dominated by the personality of Balasaheb Thackeray. Your workers give you a demigod status. What after Balasaheb? Can the Sena survive?

Have you ever dared to ask such a question to Rao, Sharad Pawar, Deve Gowda, Indira Gandhi, Rajiv? The question during Nehru's time was: after Nehru who? Then came Shastri, then came Indira Gandhi and so on. We have so much of population, we don't produce anything except this. Somebody will come.

You were recently said to be contemplating retirement...

That was because of the tamasha in the assembly. Only four days of the session were left. The agenda was complete. Why should we have continued and wasted people's money? That was the idea behind (the adjournment). But they said it was because of this Kini thing. Sine die, Sine die! As if the Shiv Sena was afraid of the opposition! It is a politically motivated thing, this Kini murder case, and we Thackerays are not afraid of that at all.

We are honestly trying to give a good government. But they charge (us) with corruption. That fellow Khairnar is coming up again. What happened to that truckload of corruption charges? It split into a briefcase, then it split into his own pocket and then it came out from the pant, all these foolish things. How can you prove all this? I have no proof. Somebody is doing his job very honestly and has absolutely no stakes. Otherwise, I would have become the chief minister. Keep me aside and I'm happy. I would have asked my son to become a minister with a good portfolio, if not the CM. I didn't. Iam the kind of a person who would like to retire and be asked why I retired rather than stick on and be asked why I'm not retiring.

Do you any time-frame in mind?

I may do it at any time. When your airways and trains don't run on schedule, why should I announce a schedule?

The Shiv Sena's militant style has invited charges of fascism. Now that you're in power, there's talk of goonda raj.

I have nothing to say. I must thank people who have given these compliments.

Once you'd expressed admiration for certain facets of Hitler...comparison was inevitable.

I have not sent anybody to the gas chamber. If I'd been like that, you wouldn't have dared to come and interview me.

You now want to contest polls in UP and other states. What takes the Sena outside Maharashtra?

The Shiv Sena is not restricted to Mumbai or Maharashtra. It's spread all over the country, right up to Jammu and Kashmir. One of our workers in UP was arrested some months back and there was nobody who could even ask a question. After seeing that, we are asking for representation in UP, MP or Gujarat and Rajasthan...wherever you're going to have elections.

Will you have an alliance with the BJP outside too, like you have in Maharashtra?

I don't think we will have any alliance with anybody. We would like to prove that we do have some status in other states also.

But the BJP enjoys power in Maharashtra on the basis of the Shiv Sena's strength...

(Laughs) Mr Mahajan (Pramod Mahajan) is not going to accept (that). But we can test it out. I don't mean with alliances. But just the Sena and BJP. This BJP has too many alliances, too many parties. If they fight us together, we may lose. But I'm confident about my manpower if there's a one-to-one fight.

Since the Sena came to power, many allegations have been flung at it—extortion, links with the Kini murder.

They've been instigated by Pawar. I openly make the statement and I don't care for all that. They often meet to chalk out the pro-gramme. Now, about the extortion charges. We've given advertisements in Marathi and Gujarati papers. The latter are more concerned. They're the jewellers, shopkeepers, the business community. We've said 'whoever comes to you asking for any kind of a donation...even if he has a receipt book, please hand him to the police'. Raj (Thackeray) recently came with a box. He said somebody is taking money in my name in Pune, you hand them over to the police. Why should we hand them to the police if they're our people? That clearly shows we have no bloody thing. Yesterday we had to send a person...he was brought here. He'd forged a letter with a rubber stamp in the name of Rajan Sharma, who works with me, for some admission. We handed the case to the police. You can check up. I handed over the damn thing to the police.

Your name has a value in the market today and people want to cash in. Suppose somebody goes and says: 'Dekho hum Balasaheb ke aadmi hai'... tho ho gaya. Acha, mujhe kya pata tha woh mera naam isthemal kar rahe hain wahan. With such a huge population in Maharashtra, we don't know who is doing what. You take things for granted. That's the whole problem. My anger is against a particular section of the people. Why don't you clarify things, suppose you get some news, why don't you telephone me, why don't you telephone Raj, why don't you telephone Udhav? And what is this Kini case? Whether it's a murder, whether he died naturally. You know the heart attack is due to heavy drinking. You know how he went to the theatre, how he went to Pune. He has got a railway pass he has got two wives. One is here, another is in Pune. He wasn't getting on well with this wife...we don't want to get involved. But with that background, you are using him just to malign us because we have power. And do you think you'll get the power back with these tactics. These are all Sharad Pawar-motivated conspiracies. I openly say that.

Then somebody sends a letter to the counsel for Kini's wife and says he has the proof. What is that proof? That anonymous letter? And that can be taken as evidence. If some people found they were dragging him, pushing him in the car and taking him to Pune. He says he was a clerk in Saamna and was scared to reveal his identity. You know Udhav made a very nice comment on this letter business. He said if I knew clerks in Saamna who could write English like that, we could have started an English edition of the paper!