'A Silent Revolution'

Transcript of BBC Hindi special programme, Aapki Baat BBC Ke Saath with thepanchayati raj minister Mani Shankar Aiyar

Nagendar Sharma: Has the world’s largestdemocracy been able to decentralise powers to the ground level by empowering thepanchyati raj institutions?

ManiShankar Aiyar: Well, the panchayatiraj has been established in India, however the decentralisation of powers has not been complete. Let me give yousome facts which are amazing – we have around 2,50,000 electedpanchayats in the country, for which more than 32 lakh electedrepresentatives are working. Out of these 12 lakh elected representativesare women. Now, the number of elected representatives in panchayati rajinstitutions is more than the population of Norway. There is a silent revolution taking place in rural India, very little is known about this is in urban India- neither the policy makers, northe media or the opinion makers have paid attention to this revolution.

Listener from Mumbai: Mr Aiyar, it is no doubt nothing less than a revolution,but I have noted dome major weaknesses in the working of these institutions ofgrass root democracy – for example since financial powers have been given topanchayat pradhans, it has led to corruption and violence even leading tomurders in some parts. Also the reservation for women in panchayats has merelyled to dummy representatives. What does this show?

ManiShankar Aiyar: It seems as if you and me do not live in the same country, as myexperiences are totally different than yours. I have been to 15 states ofthe country so far to study the working of panchayati raj institutions in thecountry. I have been interacting with the elected representatives directly, rightfrom the panch level to intermediate panchayat level – which are called bydifferent names in different parts of the country – these are called union inTamil Nadu and regional committeesin some other states. Yes, some of the points raised by you are correct to anextent in some states, but it does not at all mean that this system is wrong –I do not agree with you.

Listener from Jharkhand: Sir, my question relates to the effectiveness of womenas elected representatives. My experience is that either their husbands or theirparents/guardians rule by proxy. The real transfer of power has not takenplace. Is there is a way to fix this problem?

ManiShankar Aiyar: If what you are saying were to be true, then, tell me, would ithave been possible that where 33 percent seats were reserved for womenin panchayats, the percentage of elected women representatives at the nationallevel is 41 percent. A separate study on Karnataka shows that thispercentage is between 44 and 47. Just have a look atyour neighbouring state, Bihar, where chief minister Nitish Kumar in the recently held panchayat electionsgave 50 percent reservation for women in panchayats. Therefore, I do not agreewith the fundamentals of your question and yes please convince your stategovernment to hold panchayat elections in your state.

Listener from Jharkhand continues: Sir that is precisely my next question toyou – why does the centre not put pressure on state governments to holdpanchayat elections? You can withhold the central grants to states which do nottransfer power to the grass-roots...

ManiShankar Aiyar: Well, Jharkhand is the only state of the country, where nopanchayat elections has been held since it came into existence and the reasonfor this is that the matter is subjudice, it is pending in Ranchi HighCourt. The central government has submitted before the court that similar directionsto that which were given by Patna High Court should be given here.Our plea is that elections be held and related matters should be solved in duecourse of time. Now so far as the question of money is concerned – please bearin mind that panchayats have very limited financial powers, we want them toincrease their say in this matter. It is up to the state governments to see howthe funds are utilised. So far as the centre is concerned, we are planning tochange the way these funds are utilised.

Listener from Panchkula: Sir, I find there is a major flawin the way panchayatiraj institutions work, especially in cases where the elected representativesbelong to weaker sections of the society. Is the government planning to changethe way of training the panchayat representatives?

ManiShankar Aiyar: It is veryimportant to impart training to the elected representatives. I am dissatisfiedwith the way this has been happening in the last decade and a half. Theuse of modern technology is crucial in this purpose. We are going to make use ofsatellites for distant training purpose, which has been effectively used byKarnataka government. E-governance of the UPA government would also be used forthis purpose. We are hopeful of getting international aid for the use ofsatellites in training panchayat representatives through the method of distancelearning. This would also encourage state governments to show more progress onthis front.

Listener from Bihar: Sir, you have said that panchayati raj institutions are effective, but whatabout the self-styled caste-based panchayats which have been functioning sincecenturies and passing diktats spreading poison in the society?

ManiShankar Aiyar: There is no relation between the so-called Khap panchayats andthe panchayati raj institutions set-up in accordance with the country’sconstitution. I want that these Khap panchayats should not be allowed to use thename panchayat. The work of panchayati raj institutions is to ensure economicprogress and social justice, therefore such illegal khap panchayats cannot beallowed to spread hatred in the name of caste and community. The law of thecountry and all legal enforcement agencies should come down hard on the inhumanactivities of such traditional bodies which are poisoning the rural areas.

Nagendar Sharma:Is the centre planning to act in this matter?

ManiShankar Aiyar: I would be taking up this matter with the union law ministry tofind out the legal provisions which would enable us to put an end to suchpractices which are bringing disrepute to the panchayati raj institutions of thecountry. We would find out the ways under which the union government could actin this matter as at the moment we are not clear whether the centre could act onits own in this matter.

Listener from Orissa: Sir,whatever be the sincerity of central government in implementation of panchayatiraj in the country, it has not reached the desired level even after six decadesof independence. Why ?

ManiShankar Aiyar: The success of panchayati raj institutions depends on thepolitical will of the state governments. The states of Kerala, Karnataka and Sikkim are doing very well in panchayati raj. However some state governments have notbeen performing up to the mark. I have no hesitation in saying that in UttarPradesh, the panchayati raj institutions are working much better than thedirectionless state government. Similarly in Jharkhand, the state government hasfailed to hold even the first panchayat elections, since the state came intoexistence six years back. Similarly,you would be surprised that till recently in Orissa, orders and circulars forpanchayats were being issued in English, I objected to it and now it haschanged. So what I am saying is that several state governments need to pay moreattention towards these institutions of grass-root democracy.

Listener from Karnal: Mr Aiyar, the UPA government claims many steps have beentaken for the betterment of rural India, why are these not visible till now?

ManiShankar Aiyar: Well, it has taken 12 years to establish these institutionsin the country, and it would take at least a decade to ensure their smoothfunctioning. I am willing to wait, I am not saying that we have a magic wandwhich would have panchayati raj up and running in a minute, but I am willing towait as we are making progress and there would be results. TheUPA government has given top priority to panchayats in major programmes such asNational Rural Employment Guarantee Programme, Right to Information Act andNational Rural Health Mission.