'We Want Actual Action'

Shivshankar Menon: Thank you for coming.

As you know, earlier today we handed over to the Pakistani High Commissionerhere in New Delhi, and in Islamabad to the Pakistani Foreign Secretary, materialthat has emerged from the investigation into the terrorist attacks in Mumbai.This material includes material from the interrogation of Mohammed Ajmal Kasab,the Pakistani national who is in our police custody; details of theterrorists’ communication links with elements in Pakistan during the Mumbaiattack; details of the recovered weapons and equipment and of other articlesthat we have recovered from the boat, from the sites where the attack tookplace; and details of data that we have recovered from the GPS instrument andthe satellite telephones that we have recovered. This material, as you know, islinked to elements in Pakistan.

We have told the Pakistani authorities that it is our expectation that asPakistan is obliged to, under the various bilateral commitments which she hasundertaken and the international commitments that she has, that Pakistan willinvestigate this material, follow the evidence wherever it may lead, and sharethe results with us and extend to us legal assistance so that we can bring theperpetrators to Indian justice. We have also said that we would hope thatPakistan would implement her various commitments not to permit terrorism in anymanner from any territory under its control against India.

We have also today begun the process of briefing friendly governments. TheExternal Affairs Minister has written a letter to his counterparts around theworld along with a detailed brief on the events in Mumbai. We started theprocess of briefing friendly governments today in Delhi by briefing therepresentatives of countries who had lost their nationals in the Mumbai attacks,this afternoon at 3:30 in MEA. We will continue this process with other friendlygovernments tomorrow.

We have also the Chinese Vice Foreign Minister Mr. He Yafei in Delhi at thismoment for discussions on bilateral relations, on the preparations for themeeting of G20 leaders in London in April on the financial crisis. And naturallyhe briefed us on his discussions in Pakistan where he was the end of last month.And we also briefed him on the material that is with us that has emerged fromour investigation.

I must make it clear that this is still an ongoing investigation and it is notas though this investigation is over. But we feel that we are at the point whereit is clear that the crime might have been committed in India but the conspiracybehind the crime was in Pakistan, and hence our request to Pakistan to fulfillher commitments to us. It is also our feeling that terrorism of this sort is athreat to the entire international community. And this is why we are briefingour friends because it is really time that the world acted to eliminate thisthreat.

I will be very happy to answer any questions which you might have.

Question (Ms Sara Sidner, CNN): How long has this evidence been in thehands of Indian authorities? And is this the first time that Pakistan is gettinghard evidence from India?

Shivshankar Menon: As far as the Mumbai attack is concerned, this isevidence that we have developed since the attack began on the 26th of November.Bits and pieces of it have been developed over time. At that time itself we hadmentioned to Pakistan that all the indications that we had were that the attackhad come from Pakistan. The External Affairs Minister had spoken to hiscounterpart on the 28th (November), we had then made a demarche on the 1st(December). We had high level contacts as well. The Pakistani side had informedus that they were undertaking their own investigation, and that they would seewhat they found on their side. We have now shared with them some of the resultsof what we have discovered as a result of, as I said, an ongoing investigation.And we would hope that they would now follow these leads in Pakistan and seewhere they lead, and help us to bring the perpetrators to justice.

Question (Ms Sara Sidner, CNN): Is this the first time they have hadevidence?

Shivshankar Menon: We have given evidence in previous cases. Forinstance, after the attack on our Embassy in Kabul we held a special session ofthe Joint Anti Terror mechanism where we had given some evidence to Pakistanwhich suggested that there were elements in Pakistan who were involved in thatattack. In several cases in the past we have shared evidence. But we are hopingthat the previous pattern is not repeated in this case.

Question (Ms Sara Sidner, CNN): So, this is the first time since 26thNovember.

Shivshankar Menon: I think you have to give somebody else a chance.

Question (Mr Javed Khan, Pakistan Broadcasting Corporation): Mr. Menon,the evidence which you just mentioned, like Thuraya telephone calls and the GPSdata, was there right with the Indian authorities in the beginning. Why Indiadid not share it with Pakistan then?

Secondly, why has India not responded to Pakistan’s offer of a jointinvestigation into the Mumbai incident?

Shivshankar Menon: I think we needed to be sure of what we had collected.We needed to go through the process of investigation. This is normal. I mean thePakistan side was doing what they could on their side, we had to do what we didon our side. We have now shared what we have found with Pakistan. We wouldexpect that Pakistan would do the same in return, and would share what theyhave.

You asked why we have not chosen to respond to the idea of a jointinvestigation. I think the law is quite clear. Jurisdiction rests with thecountry whose territory the crime is committed on. In this case it is a crime inIndia with a conspiracy in Pakistan. So, we will investigate in India; we expectPakistan to investigate in Pakistan, and to render legal assistance to us, asshe is obliged to under the various Conventions that exist. We have existingmechanisms. But so far as the history of attacks shows they have not beensuccessful in preventing such attacks. So, I think it is naturally incumbent onus now to try and make sure that they work. And we hope to do so.

Question (Mr Simon Daniel, Reuters): Do you have solid evidence of thecomplicity of current or recently former members of the ISI in these attacks?And have you presented such evidence to Pakistan?

Shivshankar Menon: We will follow the evidence wherever it leads. It ishard to believe that something of this scale that took so long in thepreparation, and of this nature which amounts really to a commando attack, couldoccur without anybody anywhere in the establishment knowing that this washappening. And that actually beggars the imagination. Wherever the evidenceleads we will follow it. But we are at this stage, as I said, in an ongoinginvestigation. We are not going to say yes or no, this is where the line ends.We cannot, because we still have to continue with this investigation, and mostof it now has to be done in Pakistan.

Question (Mr Sanjay Majumder, BBC News): Mr. Menon, will you accept theresults of any investigation conducted by Pakistan, or you are also asking foryour own investigation teams? And since you are sharing this information withother governments, are you hoping that organizations such as the FBI will begiven access based on the information you have provided and can, therefore,carry out some investigations on your behalf in Pakistan?

Shivshankar Menon: You are asking me for several blank cheques, all atthe same time. I cannot say whether I will accept something that I have not evenseen, that has not even been offered, that I have not heard of! This is purelyhypothetical. Every part of your question is hypothetical. So, please do not askme to say, "Yes, I will accept; I will not accept", what somebody may atsome stage in the future offer or give me.

Question (Mr Sanjay Majumder, BBC News): But you said you asked for legalassistance. Can you amplify what kind of legal assistance? Would that meanaccess to your investigation teams?

Shivshankar Menon: I think there is an accepted international legalobligation to render legal assistance. Under the SAARC convention it is quiteclear what kind of legal assistance that is. It extends up to and it includesextradition.

Question (Mr Mathew Rosenberg, Associated Press): Pakistan has arrestedseveral senior Lashkar leaders and cracked down on the charities that are linkedto Lashkar. What other concrete steps does Pakistan need to take to satisfyIndia? And you mentioned bringing the perpetrators to Indian justice. Does thatmean that India wants Pakistan to hand them over to be tried here in India?

Shivshankar Menon: As of now I have your word that some people have beenarrested. Nobody has told us this officially yet from Pakistan. Secondly, wehave seen a similar thing when Lashkar was declared a terrorist organizationafter the attack on the Indian Parliament in December 2001. And within threemonths they were back in business. Jamaat-ud-Dawa, which was declared aterrorist organization early in December, is still functioning as far as we cansee. It is updating its website. Several of its organizations are still working.So, frankly, what we have seen so far does not impress us. Our goals are quiteclear. What we want, as I said over and over again, is to bring the perpetratorsto Indian justice, and to guarantee that there are no terrorist attacks fromPakistan on India. I think that is our goal.

Question (Mr Mathew Rosenberg, Associated Press): Does Indian justicemean being tried in India?

Shivshankar Menon: Where else is there Indian justice?

Question (Ms Caren, ABC News): I just want a follow up. You said on 11/28and the 1st of December that there was contact. Is that regarding evidence whereyou were able to say we have this evidence, and now this is the officialevidence you are giving? So, there has been communication back and forthregarding what you found and what you burnt?

Shivshankar Menon: Let us be careful in the words we use. We have giventhem material that has come out from our investigation.

Question (Ms Caren, ABC News): Along the way.

Shivshankar Menon: Evidence is what a court accepts under the law. Thereis an Evidence Act and so on. So that is not a word I will use right now. What Iwould use right now is we have given them the material that has come out of theinvestigation that leads to Pakistan. All of the material we have given them islinked to Pakistan, elements in Pakistan. We expect them to investigate, lookinto it, share the results with us. And we will take it from there.

Question (Ms Parrull Malhotra, CNN-IBN): Do you see any value in Indianinvestigators questioning Pakistani suspects in Pakistan? Secondly, yourthoughts on the FBI not getting access to suspects and places?

Shivshankar Menon: Same question, same answer. Hypothetical. As of now,all we have seen is denial or confusing, contradictory statements. So, whetheror not Indians go there, who else gives us what information, frankly, all thatis hypothetical.

Question (Mr Rajiv Sharma, Free Press Journal): Though there is noextradition treaty between India and Pakistan, would you say that it is reallynot so much mundane because Pakistan is signatory to so many internationalconventions including some UN Resolutions which demand that any terrorist crimecommitted on the soil of a country, that obligates that country to extradite thesuspects behind? Secondly, does the evidence you have shared with Pakistaninclude the DNA samples of Kasab?

Shivshankar Menon: Our understanding of the law is quite clear that underseveral international instruments, with or without a bilateral extraditiontreaty, in terrorist offences of this nature Pakistan is obliged to extraditethe criminals. Otherwise, if we were told - as we have heard some people say -that Pakistan will never extradite anybody, then in effect we are saying that aPakistani national who commits a crime in India and manages to get back toPakistan has immunity. That is what it would amount to. Our understanding, forinstance, is that under the SAARC Convention against Terrorism there is anobligation to extradite. In fact, that convention was written the way it is inorder to avoid the fact of a bilateral demand, and it actually makes somemultilateral obligation of it. And that is why that Convention was written theway it was. There are other international instruments as well, and we canmention a long list of them. But that is our understanding of the legalsituation.

Question (Mr Rajiv Sharma, Free Press Journal): Have DNA samples of Kasabbeen given?

Shivshankar Menon: No, we have not. But it is available; we have made itknown to them that it is available.

Question (Mr Manish Chand, INS): Sir, you just spoke about severalmechanisms not working in the past. Now what about this Anti Terror Mechanism?In the light of what has happened, denials and the rest coming from Pakistanafter Mumbai attacks, are we planning to continue with this Anti TerrorMechanism or is there a move to scrap it? Also, when you talk about some peoplein the Pakistani establishment being in the know about the Mumbai attacks whoare you referring to? Are we talking about the ISI here?

Shivshankar Menon: As far as mechanisms are concerned, frankly, we are nolonger interested in words, in mechanisms. We want actual action against theperpetrators. I think if we are to believe in sincerity and to see a wayforward. I think what we expect now is action. We have gone through thisprocess, for a long period, of showing evidence, of going through the variousmechanisms. So, as far as we can see, the answer is not whether we scrap amechanism, or add a new mechanism, or tinker with all this. This is form ratherthan substance. The substance of it is we would like action on the material thatwe have shared with Pakistan so that we can bring the perpetrators to justice.That is it.

Question (Mr Amit Barua, The Hindustan Times): Mr. Menon, sincethe 26/11 attacks, how would you assess the response of key players in theinternational community? There has been a lot of public support, but do youthink that enough is being done by them to actually tell Pakistan that they needto be serious this time? We had a similar situation after the attack on ourEmbassy in Kabul when there was a lot of support and a lot of statements weremade, some meetings took place. But do you believe that the internationalcommunity is doing a sufficient amount to press Pakistan on this occasion?

Shivshankar Menon: I think we have seen an unprecedented level ofinternational support and the international response has been very hearteningfrom our point of view. The international community responded immediately bydeclaring Jamaat-ud-Dawa a terrorist organization. The kind of support anddetailed assistance that we have received from several friendly countries isactually very heartening. Whether this is sufficient to induce Pakistan to dowhat she should, I do not know. That frankly is between them and Pakistan. Thatis not for me to say. I think we have made it clear what we expect. But theprimary responsibility here - because the links lead back into Pakistan, they donot lead into other countries – is for Pakistan to act. We will continue towork with our friends in the international community to see that that happens tothe extent it can.

Question (Mr Siddharth Varadarajan, The Hindu): Mr. Menon, doesthe material that you have handed over to Pakistan include the names of handlersor people at the other end of the telephone line who either are in or haverecently been part of the ISI? Secondly, are you not interested in access topeople arrested either now or in the future? For example, you are saying it is ahypothetical question but, there is an announcement by the Pakistani Governmentthat bank accounts have been frozen. Would you like to see for example detailsof some of these accounts, what have the recent transactions been? Have you madea request of this kind to the Pakistani authorities?

Shivshankar Menon: It is quite clear that what we would like from thePakistani authorities is all the information related to this crime. So, it isnot a question of our making a specific request for one bit of information oranother. We want to know how this conspiracy was formed; how it was carried out;how the training, the planning, the organization and the actual handling whichwent on right through the crime was done. That is what we would like to know. Wewould like to know it all. So, it is not just one part or the other. And thatgeneral request is available. That is why the general request for legalassistance. I think that is quite clear because it includes everything,including the results of investigation, but also goes beyond that all the way upto extradition, as I said. From what we have given them, frankly I cannot answerwhere those leads end or how far they go.

Question (Mr Siddharth Varadarajan, The Hindu): Have you named thepeople?

Shivshankar Menon: We have named those people whom we identified on thebasis of the interrogation or on other bases that we knew of.

Question (Mr Siddharth Varadarajan, The Hindu): Have you named theISI or Lashkar?

Shivshankar Menon: Frankly, the relationship that Lashkar-e-Toiba hasenjoyed with the ISI in the past is a matter of history. It is a very fine lineto draw between who is ISI, who is not ISI, and so on. So, I do not want to getinto saying so and so is, so and so is not, so and so did, so and so worked forthem, so and so did not work form them, so and so was supported, I do not wantto get into that at all.