'Both Sides Would Have To Make Sacrifices'

Full transcript of BBC Hindi and Urdu Joint Special Programme Aapki Baat BBC Ke Saath with the PrimeMinister of Pakistan, Mir Zafarullah Khan Jamali. Listeners from India, Pakistan, Gulf, Europe and Americaparticipated.

BBC Listener from Delhi : There is great hope from the fresh peace initiative from the Indian Prime minister and then yourreciprocation by calling him back. But why did you not come to Delhi in the Lahore bus, as was done by MrVajpayee four years ago, when he went to Lahore? This would have led to strong relations between bothcountries.

Mir Zafarullah Khan Jamali : When I spoke to Prime Minister Vajpayee on the phone, I had invited him to come to Pakistan, and Ihad also told him that if he cannot come to Pakistan, I am willing to travel to India. I have not left anystone unturned in initiating good relations with India.

BBC listener : Well, there is talk of normalising relations, but still both the countries are levellingallegations on each other on different issues and there are reports of frequent firing along the Line ofControl (LoC) ?

Mir Zafarullah Khan Jamali : There has been steady progress in normalisation of relations, but to reach the destination, thisprocess would have to be step-by-step. At the moment both the countries have appointed their highcommissioners and are saying that we want better relations, the bus service has also started. The firstmeeting for restoring air links is taking place on the 27th of August. We also hope that the SamjhautaExpress would start soon. We are moving step by step.

So far as the Line of Control is concerned, the policy of Pakistan is absolutely clear, that there is notrouble from our side, we are not sending anybody and we have no dual policy that on one hand we talk aboutpeace and on the other, violate the LoC. This is not in our nature.

Nagendar Sharma, BBC: But why has there been a delay in the air link, is it from your side or from theIndian side ?

Mir Zafarullah Khan Jamali : There has been no delay from our side, in fact we have taken the initiative and decided the 27thAugust meeting. There has been a delay from the Indian side, not ours.

BBC listener : Talks between India and Pakistan are not taking place for the first time. In the last 50years, both countries have signed so many declarations and agreements. But instead of having better relations,they worsened. After Lahore, it was Kargil. Gen Musharraf ‘s visit to Agra was followed by war. What formulado you have to achieve that which could not be done in 50 years ?

Mir Zafarullah Khan Jamali : I have sincerity of purpose, and an urge to succeed. Personally I am convinced that this can beachieved. This is the intention of Prime Minister Vajpayee also. With the grace of god, we are trying, and ifone is sincere, god helps him.

Nagendar Sharma, BBC :  The Indian Prime Minister extended a hand of friendship on April 18, afterwhich you telephoned him. These two steps were widely welcomed throughout the world. But about four monthshave passed since the hand of friendship was extended, why is the friendship vehicle moving so slowly ?

Mir Zafarullah Khan Jamali : Well at the moment this process is on the bus, and the bus moves slowly. When the planes wouldbegin to run and fly, then I hope that the things would move with that speed. At the moment let the bus move.

Nayeema Ahmed, BBC  : People of both Kashmirs also want a bus, is there any chance of that ?

Mir Zafarullah Khan Jamali : Step by step everything can be achieved, I think with the direction and the process which we arefollowing this could be possible.

BBC listener from Dubai : India has been mainly accusing Pakistan of infiltration. Why don’t you talk oninfiltration and take sincere steps, so that this dispute could be resolved ?

Mir Zafarullah Khan Jamali : The reason why we do not talk on infiltration is because we are not responsible for anyinfiltration. When we are not doing any particular thing, we ignore the talk on that. We are moving sincerelytowards a good purpose, you also pray to god that we succeed and all issues of dispute are solved amicably.

BBC listener from Germany : Well , it is known to the world, that Al Qaeda and other major terroristnetworks were born in Pakistan. The proof is that majority of Al Qaeda operatives arrested so far have hadlinks with Pakistan. International media and Pakistan have repeatedly said that Pakistan is the epicenter ofterrorism. How and when would you finish these terrorist bases since only this would normalise relations withIndia ?

Mir Zafarullah Khan Jamali : My brother, this all is an issue of differences in understanding the problem. Taliban ruled inAfghanistan and not Pakistan. The bases of Al Qaeda were in that country, where America bombarded them. So faras Pakistan is concerned, those who by mistake or misunderstanding entered Pakistan have been handed toAmerica. If this movement had been in Pakistan, why would we have taken these steps ?

Al Qaeda came into focus only after the bombing of Afghanistan. Pakistan had no role or interference in it.We have helped the anti-terrorism alliance, the allied forces. There are no bases in Pakistan. If anybodycomes here, we are taking action in accordance with the law. This allegation against us is totally wrong.

Nagendar Sharma, BBC : Since the time of Mr Vajpayee’s peace initiatives and your response, there havebeen statements from the Pakistan govt that the infiltrators crossing the border do not seek permission fromthe government, but don’t you admit that these organisations are active and operating from Pakistan ?

Mir Zafarullah Khan Jamali : See, activists of different organisations are present in different countries. Look at America,Europe and other countries. How many activists of different organisations are active there? How do you know,who is doing what in big countries ?

So far as Pakistan is concerned, we have undertaken a mission of goodwill - and everything depends on this.People speak against Pakistan and think that this alone is true. But please listen to us also and believe thatto be true.

BBC listener : You also have one part of Kashmir under your control. Another partition would be injusticewith the people of this region. Either you should accept the Shimla agreement or fight another war and decideonce and for all with whom should Kashmir be ? Do you have any other solution ?

Mir Zafarullah Khan Jamali : I only have the message of goodwill. The Shimla agreement was signed by Bhutto sahib. Lahore wasbetween Nawaz Sharif and Vajpayee ji, and Agra between Musharraf sahib and Vajpayee sahib. War is no solution.In these times who can talk about war ? This is against humanity. We do not want this. We want the welfare ofthe people. Nobody can even think of war and I think this is impossible for the two neighbours. We have nointention of any war. Our message is of peace and goodwill.

BBC listener : There is hunger and people are in a bad position. The best thing to get out of thissituation is to have good relations with the neighbouring country. You can do this if you want. But both thecountries are increasing their defence expenditure and attaining nuclear capabilities to enhance threatperceptions. Please talk and solve this ?

Mir Zafarullah Khan Jamali : We are trying at all levels and with all our energy. If you have a better solution, please writeto me. So far as we are concerned, we want our people to be educated, we want development in Pakistan. As faras the defence expenditure is concerned, remember we are doing only what is required for the security of thecountry. This is important for Pakistan, and this is not done out of choice or with happiness, it is only forself-defence.

BBC listener : There is no political stability in Pakistan, if there is any agreement between yourself andMr Vajpayee, would it be acceptable in future or would it be reversed later. History tells us that in Pakistansuch agreement could be rejected ?

Mir Zafarullah Khan Jamali : Agreements are signed between governments and are known as government to government agreements,there are no personal agreements. So far as the parliament is concerned, there is opposition everywhere.Before speaking to Vajpayee sahib, I had taken the opposition parties and the parliament into confidence.Therefore I had the support, and it was on the basis of this that I had gone ahead.

BBC listener : Democracy in Pakistan came later than India, where it has been from the beginning. Analystsfeel that all political parties in Pakistan should run the country. The tug of war that is going on -- GenMusharraf has left the public with no hope. What you are doing would not yield results, since many parties arenot with you...

Mir Zafarullah Khan Jamali : Had there been no hope the world would have come to an end many years ago. The entire world moveson hope only.

So far as the controversy on the rights of Gen Musharraf is concerned, despite the speaker’s ruling, wehave taken the opposition into confidence on what ever amendments are being done in the constitution. This isour internal matter and we would resolve it.

BBC listener : Tashkent, Shimla, Lahore and Agra- in the past 55 years these agreements were signed forpeace, but it eluded us. What is different this time, which could give hope to the people of both thecountries? Should we keep less hopes this time, so that there is no disappointment later on ?

Mir Zafarullah Khan Jamali : You have mentioned the four major agreements from Tashkent to Agra. Now, this is the 21st century.Situation and times have changed now. For about 1.25 billion of this region, there is no other way than tolive in peace. We cannot fight wars now, we cannot destroy humanity. I feel that those times are over now. The leaders of both the countries should be happy to agree, if they don’t then under compulsion also theywould have to agree.

Nagendar Sharma, BBC : You are saying that there would have to be an agreement. But for an agreement,the core issue is Kashmir as Pakistan says. How many concessions are you ready to give on that ?

Mir Zafarullah Khan Jamali : Absolutely, the core issue is Kashmir. Well, India occupies the larger territory of Kashmir, andit has to make concessions. We have to ask for concessions for the Kashmiris from India. Therefore this would depend on the attitude of all sides. We are watching for how many concessions is Indiaready.

Nayeema Ahmed, BBC : But it is being said that both the countries would have to give and take onKashmir. If there is give and take on Azad Kashmir, would you be ready for this ?

Mir Zafarullah Khan Jamali : You would have to see Kashmir as one. You cannot divide Kashmir into two and then see the matter.You would have to see who occupies what part of Kashmir and in whose favour is which part. Which is the biggerand the powerful country ? It is the bigger country that has to sacrifice.

BBC listener : You have admitted in the programme that the core issue is Kashmir. The UN solution was thatlet there be a referendum on Kashmir. Why don’t you allow the Kashmiris to choose where and with whom youwant to be by their referendum ? As far as give and take is concerned, are only Kashmiris left in the world ?

Mir Zafarullah Khan Jamali : Well if there could be a referendum in accordance with the UN resolutions, what better solutioncan be there than that ? We have been saying this since the last 50 years. The right of the Kashmiris has beenrecognised by the UN also. I hope that every international body is able to fulfil its obligations, I would behappy.

Nayeema Ahmed, BBC : Do you think that the UN resolutions are still relevant ?

Mir Zafarullah Khan Jamali : Well the UN resolutions are still there, they are dormant but not redundant. I think that this isone of the longest outstanding UN resolutions in history.

BBC listener : The Pakistan foreign ministry has been saying that the jehadis crossing the border are notunder their control. But if talks with India begin they can influence them. Don’t you feel that Pakistan issupporting terrorism, knowing fully well that these elements kill innocents. On the name of moral support isthis right ? Won’t the ISI and Pakistan army listen to the heart beat of Baby Noor who has just returnedfrom India after a successful operation ?

Mir Zafarullah Khan Jamali : My friend, Pakistan has never supported terrorism and we have never appreciated it as well.Pakistan itself has been a victim of terrorism. We have supported the allied forces in fight againstterrorism. We do not patronise such elements.

The problem is that you people only listen to one way traffic, think and talk in that manner. This is a two way traffic and thinking in that manner.So far as controlling terrorism is concerned, you have an army of about seven-eight lakh soldiers on theborder why don’t you control it ?

This is an indigenous movement. We have no interference in it at all !

Nagendar Sharma, BBC : Mr Jamali if it is an indigenous movement, then why are the offices oforganisations like Lashkar in Pakistan ?

Mir Zafarullah Khan Jamali : My friend if there were any such offices at all in Pakistan, they have been closed and sealed. Wecan prove that we are not in favour of such activities, despite the fact that there is a reaction against us.But we face it, tolerate it, and want to assure you that we do not support any such activity. Why does theworld not understand this ? They should listen to us.

Nagendar Sharma, BBC :  Mr Jamali you have said that you do not support ongoing militancy in Kashmir, butif and when India and Pakistan talk, are you ready to appeal to the militants to give up violence in Kashmir ?

Mir Zafarullah Khan Jamali : For the betterment of humanity we are ready to go to any extent, I want to assure you about this.

Nayeema Ahmed, BBC : Till what extent Mr Prime Minister ?

Mir Zafarullah Khan Jamali : Madam, there is no limit in sincerity. We can appeal and we would do that also. But my request isthat when you are moving in a particular direction, there should be no conditions attached. If you attachconditions and say do this -- then we will move forward. I am sorry to say that then nothing would beachieved. We should talk with an open mind .

Nagendar Sharma, BBC : Mr Prime Minister, there is no doubt that sincere efforts have been made by you andMr Vajpayee. You had said some time back that you could meet Mr Vajpayee on the sidelines of UN generalassembly. When are you two going to meet ?

Mir Zafarullah Khan Jamali : I am an open minded person. I have said that whenever and at which ever level, India wants to meet- we are ready to talk to them. We have never said no and would never say so, because I feel that this is astep towards betterment.

BBC listener : India has flatly refused to any third party mediation on Kashmir. Would you be ready to talkon issues other than Kashmir ? Would you accept the wish of the Kashmiri people, when they decide and wouldyou accept LoC as the border ?

Mir Zafarullah Khan Jamali : See, Kashmir is the core issue, to reach that and decide on it, you have to look for a way. It isbeing rightly said that 55 years have passed, but there is hope and efforts will not end. Human beings have tostrive and work hard, and it is this which bears fruit. We are working hard for the two countries to somehow reach an understanding. You should appreciate the factthat despite all hardships, we have been making an effort and have reached this level.

Nayeema Ahmed, BBC : But Mr Jamali, by which way would the two countries reach an understanding ?

Mir Zafarullah Khan Jamali : See, there are two things - how to go about it and get it done, the other is how it would be done.Our effort is how to go about it, and we are moving forward. For this the crucial thing is sincerity ofpurpose, if it is not there, nothing can be done. I do not wish to go into the details of all that, as boththe countries have passed a very difficult time. We cannot leave things for the future, we have to decide. As I have said earlier, for this both sides wouldhave to make sacrifices, without which the issues cannot be resolved.

Nagendar Sharma, BBC : You said earlier that India is a big country, and it would have to giveconcessions, but for solving the issue, both sides would have to sacrifice?

Mir Zafarullah Khan Jamali : I agree with you my friend. Both sides would have to make sacrifices, and in this, if the bigcountry makes a concession of say one hundred rupees, the smaller one can also make a concession of a rupeeand a half. But both sides would have to make sacrifices.

Nagendar Sharma, BBC : Mr Prime Minister which are the concrete steps that would improve relationsbetween the two countries ?

Mir Zafarullah Khan Jamali : Well, so far as concrete steps are concerned, the first one has already been taken, that theprocess of dialogue has begun after two years. I think this is a big breakthrough. Remember there are hawks within both the governments - that is India and Pakistan, but India has strongerhawks, we have comparatively less strong hawks. The key thing is that we have now embarked on the path of peace, everybody knows that, but where we take abreak, you cannot ignore that.