'Only Americans Are Afraid Of Saddam Hussien Outside Iraq'

SchNEWS Interview

Mark Thomas: If we can start with US foreign policy in relation to Iraq and the War on Terror, what do you think is goingon at the moment?

Noam Chomsky: First of all I think we ought to be very cautious about using the phrase 'War on Terror'. There can't be aWar on Terror. It's a logical impossibility. The US is one of the leading terrorist states in the world. Theguys who are in charge right now were all condemned for terrorism by the World Court. They would have beencondemned by the U.N. Security Council except they vetoed the resolution, with Britain abstaining of course.These guys can't be conducting a war on terror. It's just out of the question. They declared a war on terror20 years ago and we know what they did. They destroyed Central America. They killed a million and a halfpeople in southern Africa. We can go on through the list. So there's no 'War on Terror'.

There was a terrorist act, September 11th, very unusual, a real historic event, the first time in historythat the west received the kind of attack that it carries out routinely in the rest of the world. September11th did change policy undoubtedly, not just for the US, but across the board. Every government in the worldsaw it as an opportunity to intensify their own repression and atrocities, from Russia and Chechnya, to theWest imposing more discipline on their populations.

This had big effects - for example take Iraq. Prior to September 11th, there was a longstanding concern ofthe US toward Iraq - that is it has the second largest oil reserves in the world. So one way or another the USwas going to do something to get it, that's clear. September 11th gave the pretext. There's a change in therhetoric concerning Iraq after September 11th - 'We now have an excuse to go ahead with what we're planning.'

It kinda stayed like that up to September of this year when Iraq suddenly shifted... to 'An imminent threatto our existence.' Condoleeza Rice [US National Security Advisor] came out with her warning that the nextevidence of a nuclear weapon would be a mushroom cloud over New York. There was a big media campaign withpolitical figures - we needed to destroy Saddam this winter or we'd all be dead. You've got to kind of admirethe intellectual classes not to notice that the only people in the world who are afraid of Saddam Hussien areAmericans. Everybody hates him and Iraqis are undoubtedly afraid of him, but outside of Iraq and the UnitedStates, no one's afraid of him. Not Kuwait, not Iran, not Israel, not Europe. They hate him, but they're notafraid of him.

In the United States people are very much afraid, there's no question about it. The support you see in USpolls for the war is very thin, but it's based on fear. It's an old story in the United States. When my kidswere in elementary school 40 years ago they were taught to hide under desks in case of an atom bomb attack.I'm not kidding. The country is always in fear of everything. Crime for example: Crime in the United States isroughly comparable with other industrial societies, towards the high end of the spectrum. On the other hand,fear of crime is way beyond other industrial societies...

It's very consciously engendered. These guys now in office, remember they're almost entirely from the1980s. They've been through it already and they know exactly how to play the game. Right through the 1980sthey periodically had campaigns to terrify the population.

To create fear is not that hard, but this time the timing was so obviously for the Congressional campaignthat even political commentators got the message. The presidential campaign is going to be starting in themiddle of next year. They've got to have a victory under their belt. And on to the next adventure. Otherwise,the population's going to pay attention to what's happening to them, which is a big assault, a major assaulton the population, just as in the 1980s. They're replaying the record almost exactly. First thing they did inthe 1980s, in 1981, was drive the country into a big deficit. This time they did it with a tax cut for therich and the biggest increase in federal spending in 20 years.

This happens to be an unusually corrupt administration, kind of like an Enron administration, so there's atremendous amount of profit going into the hands of an unusually corrupt group of gangsters. You can't reallyhave all this stuff on the front pages, so you have to push it off the front pages. You have to keep peoplefrom thinking about it. And there's only one way that anybody ever figured out to frighten people and they'regood at it.

So there's domestic political factors that have to do with timing. September 11th gave the pretext andthere's a long term, serious interest [in Iraq]. So they've gotta go to war... my speculation would be thatthey would like to have it over with before the presidential campaign.

The problem is that when you're in a war, you don't know what's going to happen. The chances are it'll be apushover, it ought to be, there's no Iraqi army, the country will probably collapse in two minutes, but youcan't be sure of that. If you take the CIA warnings seriously, they're pretty straight about it. They'resaying that if there's a war, Iraq may respond with terrorist acts.

US adventurism is just driving countries into developing weapons of mass destruction as a deterrent - theydon't have any other deterrent. Conventional forces don't work obviously, there's no external deterrent. Theonly way anyone can defend themselves is with terror and weapons of mass destruction. So it's plausible toassume that they're doing it. I suppose that's the basis for the CIA analysis and I suppose the Britishintelligence are saying the same thing.

But you don't want to have that happen in the middle of a presidential campaign... There is the problemabout what to do with the effects of the war, but that's easy. You count on journalists and intellectuals notto talk about it. How many people are talking about Afghanistan? Afghanistan's back where it was, run bywarlords and gangsters and who's writing about it? Almost nobody. If it goes back to what it was no one cares,everyone's forgotten about it.

If Iraq turns into people slaughtering each other, I could write the articles right now. 'Backward people,we tried to save them but they want to murder each other because they're dirty Arabs.' By then, I presume, I'mjust guessing, they [the US] will be onto the next war, which will probably be either Syria or Iran.

The fact is that war with Iran is probably underway. It's known that about 12% of the Israeli airforce isin south eastern Turkey. They're there because they're preparing for the war against Iran. They don't careabout Iraq. Iraq they figure's a pushover, but Iran has always been a problem for Israel. It's the one countryin the region that they can't handle and they've been after the US to take it on for years. According to onereport, the Israeli airforce is now flying at the Iranian border for intelligence, provocation and so on. Andit's not a small airforce. It's bigger than the British airforce, bigger than any NATO power other than theUS. So it's probably underway. There are claims that there are efforts to stir up Azeri separatism, whichmakes some sense. It's what the Russians tried to do in 1946, and that would separate Iran, or what's left ofIran, from the Caspian oil producing centres. Then you could partition it. That will probably be underway atthe time and then there'll be a story about how Iran's going to kill us tomorrow, so we need to get rid ofthem today. At least that's been the pattern.

Campaign Against Arms Trade: How far do you see the vast military production machine that is America requiring war as an advertisement fortheir equipment?

Noam Chomsky: You have to remember that what's called military industry is just hi-tech industry. The military is a kind ofcover for the state sector in the economy. At MIT [Massachusetts Institute of Technology] where I am,everybody knows this except maybe for some economists. Everybody else knows it because it pays theirsalaries. The money comes into places like MIT under military contract to produce the next generation of thehi-tech economy. If you take a look at what's called the new economy - computers, internet - it comes straightout of places like MIT under federal contracts for research and development under the cover of militaryproduction. Then it gets handed to IBM when you can sell something.

At MIT the surrounding area used to have small electronics firms. Now it has small biotech firms. Thereason is that the next cutting edge of the economy is going to be biology based. So funding from thegovernment for biology based research is vastly increasing. If you want to have a small start-up company thatwill make you a huge amount of money when somebody buys it someday, you do it in genetic engineering,biotechnology and so on. This goes right through history. It's usually a dynamic state sector that getseconomies going.

One of the reasons the US wants to control the oil is because profits flow back, and they flow in a lot ofways. Its not just oil profits, it's also military sales. The biggest purchaser of US arms and probablyBritish arms is either Saudi Arabia or United Arab Emirates, one of the rich oil producers. They take most ofthe arms and that's profits for hi- tech industry in the Unites States. The money goes right back to the UStreasury and treasury securities. In various ways, this helps prop up primarily the US and British economies.

I don't know if you've looked at the records, but in 1958 when Iraq broke the Anglo-American condominium onoil production, Britain went totally crazy. The British at that time were still very reliant on Kuwaitiprofits. Britain needed the petrodollars for supporting the British economy and it looked as if what happenedin Iraq might spread to Kuwait. So at that point Britain and the US decided to grant Kuwait nominal autonomy,up to then it was just a colony. They said you can run your own post office, pretend you have a flag, thatsort of thing. The British said that if anything goes wrong with this we will ruthlessly intervene to ensuremaintaining control and the US agreed to the same thing in Saudi Arabia and the Emirates.

CAAT: There's also the suggestion that it's a way of America controlling Europe and the Pacific rim.

Noam Chomsky: Absolutely. The smarter guys like George Kennen were pointing out that control over the energy resources ofthe middle east gives the US what he called 'veto power' over other countries. He was thinking particularly ofJapan. Now the Japanese know this perfectly well so they've been working very hard to try to gain independentaccess to oil, that's one of the reasons they've tried hard, and succeeded to an extent, to establishrelations with Indonesia and Iran and others, to get out of the West-controlled system.

Actually one of the purposes of the [post World War II] Marshall Plan, this great benevolent plan, was toshift Europe and Japan from coal to oil. Europe and Japan both had indigenous coal resources but they switchedto oil in order to give the US control. About $2bn out of the $13bn Marshall Plan dollars went straight to theoil companies to help convert Europe and Japan to oil based economies. For power, it's enormously significantto control the resources and oil's expected to be the main resource for the next couple of generations.

The National Intelligence Council, which is a collection of various intelligence agencies, published aprojection in 2000 called 'Global Trends 2015.' They make the interesting prediction that terrorism is goingto increase as a result of globalisation. They really say it straight. They say that what they callglobalisation is going to lead to a widening economic divide, just the opposite of what economic theorypredicts, but they're realists, and so they say that it's going to lead to increased disorder, tension andhostility and violence, a lot of it directed against the United States.

They also predict that Persian Gulf oil will be increasingly important for world energy and industrialsystems but that the US won't rely on it. But it's got to control it. Controlling the oil resources is more ofan issue than access. Because control equals power.

Mark Thomas: How do you think the current anti-war movement that's building up compares with Vietnam? What do you think wecan achieve as people involved in direct action and protest? Do you think there's a possibility of preventinga war from occurring?

Noam Chomsky: I think that's really hard because the timing is really short. You can make it costly, which is important.Even if it doesn't stop, it's important for the war to be costly to try to stop the next one.

Compared with the Vietnam War movement, this movement is just incomparably ahead now. People talk about theVietnam War movement, but they forget or don't know what it was actually like. The war in Vietnam started in1962, publicly, with a public attack on South Vietnam - air force, chemical warfare, concentration camps, thewhole business. No protest... the protest that did build up four or five years later was mostly about thebombing of the North, which was terrible but was a sideshow. The main attack was against South Vietnam andthere was never any serious protest against that.

This time there's protest before the war has even got started. I can't think of an example in the entirehistory of Europe, including the United States, when there was ever protest of any substantial level before awar. Here you've got massive protest before war's even started. It's a tremendous tribute to changes inpopular culture that have taken place in Western countries in the last 30 or 40 years. It's just phenomenal.

SchNEWS: It sometimes seems that as soon as protest breaks out of quite narrow confines, a march every six monthsmaybe, you get attacked. People protesting against the war recently in Brighton were pepper sprayed andbatoned for just sitting down in a street.

Noam Chomsky: The more protest there is the more tightening there's going to be, that's routine. When the Vietnam Warprotests really began to build up, so did the repression. I was very close to a long jail sentence myself andit was stopped by the Tet Offensive. After the Tet Offensive, the establishment turned against the war andthey called off the trials. Right now a lot of people could end up in Guantanamo Bay and people are aware ofit.

If there's protest in a country then there's going to be repression. Can they get away with it? - itdepends a lot on the reaction. In the early 50s in the US, there was what was called Macarthyism and the onlyreason it succeeded was that there was no resistance to it. When they tried the same thing in the 60s itinstantly collapsed because people simply laughed at it so they couldn't do it. Even a dictatorship can't doeverything it wants. It's got to have some degree of popular support. And in a more democratic country,there's a very fragile power system. There's nothing secret about this, it's history. The question in all ofthese things is how much popular resistance there's going to be.

Text Courtesy, Znet