"Dirty Game Being Played In UP'

Full transcript of the BBC Hindi specialprogramme Aapki Baat BBC Ke Saath -- with the leader of Bahujan Samaj Party (BSP) in the parliament, and theparty spokesman, Rashid Alvi. The topic for the programme was - Can the rights of poor and downtrodden be onlyprotected by political manoeuvrings of the BSP?

Nagendar Sharma: Was political manoeuvering the only way by which the BSP could safeguard the rights of thedowntrodden in Uttar Pradesh?

Rashid Alvi : After the last assembly polls in February 2002 in UP, the BSP could not have done anythingalone. We waited for two months, so that the parties which call themselves secular, could come together on acommon platform but they did not do so. We were then forced to go with the BJP. It was a compulsion in thegiven circumstances.

Nagendar Sharma: You are saying that the BSP was compelled to go with the BJP as there was no alternative left. Youcontest elections on an anti-BJP plank and your party has aligned thrice with that party. How do you defend it?

Rashid Alvi : I have no hesitation in saying that the alliance with the BJP was a mistake. But when we hadsought the support of the BJP, we had made it clear to its leaders that we would not tolerate any interferencein the functioning of the government. We had said in the beginning that it would be a government led byMayawatiji. When BJP wanted to pressure the government on the Ayodhya issue, we walked out of the government.

BBC listener from Kanpur : Former chief minister Mayawati decided on her own to recommend the dissolutionof the assembly, when she was in a coalition , should not she have consulted her alliance partner, the BJP ?

Rashid Alvi : No, you are mistaken. It was a unanimous decision of the cabinet, in which BJP ministersincluding their senior leader Lalji Tandon were present. What the governor did was totally wrong andunconstitutional. You look at the horse-trading of MLAs going on these days- it was to prevent this that theBSP leadership had recommended the dissolution of the house.

Nagendar Sharma: But Mr Alvi, when your alliance with the BJP was there, both the parties were talking of along-lasting alliance and even fighting the next Lok Sabha elections together. Now when the alliance hascollapsed, why is there trading of charges ?

Rashid Alvi : No decision about your alliance partner can be taken in a day. Different leaders of the BJPwere talking in differing tones. There was a talk of a looming split in the BJP, some were talking aboutAyodhya, their state unit president was planning to take out a rath yatra. Alliances cannot work like this!There has to be sincerity of purpose for an alliance to work.

When this looked impossible, we decided to sacrifice power, and we kicked the BJP. There are not manyexamples today when a particular political party sacrifices power, but we did that.

Nagendar Sharma: You have spoken about pressure being put on the BSP led government by the BJP on the Ayodhya issue.But it was the Mayawati government that withdrew the charge of criminal conspiracy against the top BJPleaders, who were accused in the case?

Rashid Alvi : No it is not so. The Mayawati government only spoke about the court in which the case wouldbe tried. The BSP government did not take back any charge. Even now when the Deputy Prime Minister L K Advanihas been discharged from the case, we have demanded that the CBI should go for an appeal.

BBC listener from J P Nagar (UP) : BSP speaks about downtrodden and Muslims and still aligns with the BJP,isn’t it sheer opportunism for the sake of power?

Rashid Alvi : See, I want to make it clear that after the last elections there was a hung house in UP, thenthe parties which call themselves secular did not come forward on a common platform. We were then forced to gowith the BJP. But after almost a year and a half, we did not allow the BJP to impose its agenda. BJP had nocontrol over the decisions taken by Mayawati government.

And in politics, there are two ways of destroying the evil - by making friends with it and then striking,and the second is by declaring enmity. We made friends with the BJP and today the minority communities in thiscountry will appreciate that we have considerably weakened the BJP.

It is Mulayam Singh Yadav who is strengthening the BJP since last ten years by talking about Muslims andMandir-masjid.

Nagendar Sharma: Mr Alvi you have launched a tirade against the BJP, but it is your party which again and againaligns with the BJP, you have done it thrice in the past. Would you ever again have an alliance with the BJPin future ?

Rashid Alvi : This question does not arise at all. BSP will not go with the BJP again, and there is noquestion of any alliance between the BJP and the BSP.

Nagendar Sharma: But the BSP had said similar things when its alliance with the BJP had fallen apart, and then youwent again with the same party. What is the guarantee that what you are saying this time can be trusted ?

Rashid Alvi : See I am telling you that the alliance this time was a mistake and it had many inherentshortcomings. But it would have to be appreciated, that despite an alliance with the BJP, our party did notgive up its ideology and agenda.

BSP government worked on its agenda and when we realised that the BJP is trying to impose its agenda, wedecided to give up power. We walked out of the alliance rather than follow the BJP agenda.

Nagendar Sharma: But the kind of alliances that BSP has been making clearly shows that for the want of power andpractical politics, it has been compromising with its basic ideology ?

Rashid Alvi : Our leader Mayawati has said many times, that BSP had no ideological alliance with the BJP.Their ideology is different and ours is different. Forming a government with the BJP was a compulsion, as noother political party in UP wanted to form a government with the BSP.

We wanted to protect the rights of the Bahujan Samaj and to do that we formed the government. But wefollowed our agenda and did not buckle under any pressure.

Nagendar Sharma: Mr Alvi, you have said there would be no alliance with the BJP. But your party president Mayawatihas repeatedly said that for the benefit of Bahujan samaj there can be an alliance with anybody again... 

Rashid Alvi : No, Mayawati ji has categorically said there would be no alliance with the BJP again. Thisshe has said in clear words and terms.

BBC listener from Saudi Arabia : You have already admitted that going into an alliance with the BJP was amistake. How is it that you fight elections on an anti-BJP plank and then join hands with them ?

Rashid Alvi : I think you would appreciate that during the tenure of the BSP led government there was noteven a single riot in the state .

Nagendar Sharma: Bu Mr Alvi, this is the very statement given by BJP and they give the same example for the statesin which they rule... 

Rashid Alvi : BJP leaders do not speak the truth. In the history of India, Gujarat witnessed the worstriots, and on the dead bodies of the innocents, BJP tried to play politics. How can they defend this ?

Nagendar Sharma: But your leader Mayawati campaigned for the BJP after the riots. What do you have to say on that ?

Rashid Alvi : No, that was under different circumstances and I do not want to comment on that.

But so far as the riots were concerned, in the Lok Sabha I had warned the top BJP leadership including theDeputy Prime Minister L K Advani that by such riots, an industry for militancy is being created. My speech inthe parliament was a clear condemnation of Gujarat violence.

BBC listener from Hathras (UP) : Your party talks about Dalits, but gives tickets to forward castes. And itis these people from forward castes who then desert your party. I think that in the name of justice youindulge in opportunism and in the appeasement of Dalits?

Rashid Alvi : I feel that you are not aware of the truth. In the last assembly elections, we had given 40percent tickets to the Dalits and in the house of 400, 88 of our candidates were Muslims.

But at the same time, I would like to make it clear that it is not possible for us to deny tickets to theforward caste people .

Nagendar Sharma: But recently 40 odd MLAs have deserted the BSP in UP, they are those who were ideologically notwith your party, but had joined it to win the elections ?

Rashid Alvi : I would agree with you partially. But you would have to look at the picture in totality. Whywas Mulayam Singh Yadav given 14 days by the governor to prove the majority? It was only to ensure that hebreaks the BSP. There is a dirty game going on to lure away the BSP MLAs. Have you seen any example in the world, where the ruling party has about 60 percent majority in the house,but still the speaker is from the opposition? There is much more than what meets the eye.

Nagendar Sharma: If the speaker is from the opposition, is this not a healthy sign for the democracy? When you werewith the BJP, you supported all acts of the governor and the speaker, even when the governor did not invitethe Samajwadi Party (SP) to form the government, despite the fact that it was the single largest party ?

Rashid Alvi : See what I am saying is that you would not find such an example like that of the UP assembly. The BJP which is in opposition has its speaker in place. Why don’t the BJP and the SP come clean on this. Why don’t they say that both these parties are workingtogether. How is it possible that one party has a majority in the house and the other, in opposition has its speaker.This is what I want to say. There is a dirty game being played in UP. Government machinery, administration,money power, pressure -- all were used to break the BSP. This is what BSP was opposed to - the horse-trading. Look what is happening today in the state. Six ministers were sworn-in, they have not been allocatedportfolios so far, there has been no expansion of the ministry. What is happening ?

BBC listener from Purnea : Indian politics has been reduced to charges and counter-charges. When theVajpayee government lost the confidence vote in 1999, Mayawati had said it is a revenge for UP. Now when theMayawati govt is gone, if Mr Vajpayee says it is a revenge for Delhi. How would you react to it ?

Rashid Alvi : See how much the Prime Minister was involved in all this, I do not want to go into it. Buthere the question was not of BJP withdrawing support, It was Mayawati ji, who herself quit the government .To say that it was the BJP which withdrew support from the government, is wrong and there is no truth inthis.

Nagendar Sharma: As you have said that there would be no alliance with the BJP in future. For the coming assemblypolls in Madhya Pradesh, Rajasthan, Delhi and Chattisgarh, will the BSP have an alliance with the Congress?

Rashid Alvi : No in these states, we will have no alliance and we will fight on our own.

Nagendar Sharma: But recently, Mayawati has met the Congress President Sonia Gandhi for more than an hour. Is thatany indication of things to come ?

Rashid Alvi : Soniaji is a cultured leader. She had visited Kanshi Ramji in hospital and enquired abouthis health. I think there should be no political motive to that visit and her meeting with Mayawatiji there.

Nagendar Sharma: What would be the future politics of the BSP, would you have no alliance of any sort with any partyfor the coming polls?

Rashid Alvi : No, for the coming assembly polls, we are preparing to fight on our own, we would like to goit alone. As for the next general elections, there is a lot of time to go. We would decide on that after theseassembly polls.

BBC listener from Sangrur : Can BSP be trusted anymore ? You came together with the BJP thrice and deceivedthem. Why should other political parties have faith in BSP ?

Rashid Alvi : If BSP is to have faith in any other political party, then why should it exist at all ?All should appreciate the fact that BSP refused to buckle under pressure from the BJP on the Ayodhya issue.If BJP thought it could pressure the BSP on this matter and for the sake of power, BSP would do anythingthen the BJP was mistaken.

If we wanted, Mayawati could have remained the Chief Minister for five years. But we were firm on ourprinciples, and decided not to come under any pressure.

Nagendar Sharma: If that was the case, why did Mayawati not quit, when she went to meet the Prime Minister and hesaid he could not accept her demands. Why did Mayawati wait for the cabinet meeting and recommend dissolution?

Rashid Alvi : At that time, Mayawatiji had gone to discuss about the Union Tourism Minister Jagmohan andnothing else was discussed at that point.

Nagendar Sharma: But it is said that the Mayawati government fell on the Taj Corridor issue ?

Rashid Alvi : After the Jagmohan episode, BJP leadership thought that Mayawati ji could be brought underpressure and she could be forced to do certain illegal things like Ayodhya. But she refused to do that and sacrificed the chair .

BBC listener from Saudi Arabia : Why do you align with the BJP time and again and get deceived ? Why doesn’tBSP leadership learn any lessons ?

Rashid Alvi : You are right. From now on there would be no alliance with the BJP and you would not have tocomplain again .

Nagendar Sharma: Mr Alvi, the BSP and SP seem natural ideological allies, and the alliance both these parties had in1993 appeared invincible. But don’t you think that personal egos of leaders of both the parties have harmedthe cause of backwards and downtrodden ?

Rashid Alvi : It was not a question of ego. It was the Samajwadi Party which tried to break the BSP, sothat it could have had the majority on its own, and then the whole world knows about the murderous assault onMayawatiji on 6th June 1995. Who could have tolerated all that in the name of alliance .

Nagendar Sharma: BSP talks of Bahujan samaj, but whenever, BSP comes to power in UP, the government work is onlyconfined to construction of new parks and renaming of districts ?

Rashid Alvi : This is not correct. You are speaking from London, how many parks are there and they havebeen named after whom, some leader might have constructed them and parks might have been named after someone. In the entire country parks are named after political leaders, but why is there is hue and cry when a parkis named after a BSP forefather. There is a negative propaganda against the BSP government. Its works arenot projected properly.

Transcript courtesy, BBC Hindi Radio