'Beginning Of An End'?

The full transcript of the joint BBC Hindi and Urdu special programme, Aapki Baat BBC Ke Saath, with thePresident of Pakistan, General Pervez Musharraf on the subject: Can India and Pakistan defeat militancywithout being friends? broadcast on the night of December 1. 

BBC: The process of dialogue between India and Pakistan seems to be moving forward once again, but can you say thatAgra would not be repeated this time?

Musharraf: I hope so and everyone should hope in the same direction, that the process of dialogue moves forward. But Iwould like to tell all of you that there should be no room for complacency. I think some people are thinkingthat everything has been achieved and there is peace all around, but it is not so. Remember it is thebeginning of an end.

We would have to be extremely careful, and with sincerity we should move forward in this process ofdialogue.

BBC listener from Canada : Today both India and Pakistan are facing numerous problems. Why don’t both countries sit down and sort outthe problems, instead of making themselves a laughing stock before the Western world. Till when would theycontinue fighting over Kargil and Kashmir?

Musharraf : Absolutely, you are talking about Kargil and Kashmir, but you have forgotten about Siachen, we will have toput all this, including Siachen also behind now. I am confident that if we have the sincerity, then we canmove forward leaving all this behind.

If there has been bitterness in the past, it is better to forget it and move ahead. Let us think forward.Let me also say that it has been said widely from the Indian side that, I say something else and do somethingelse. This is wrong, I do not believe in double standards.

This is a misunderstanding on their part. See,  I am a soldier and I do what I say. I believe in astraight talk and straight-forward deeds. Instead, look at your own media and your own leaders. Pleaseremember, when I make a verbal commitment, it is final .

BBC listener from Islamabad : Who has the final authority on Kashmir, President or the National Assembly?

Musharraf : This would definitely be the decision of the National Assembly, because it represents the aspirations of thepublic. So whatever be the decision on Kashmir, it would be of the Assembly, but the President can contribute,there should be no doubt about it.

I am surprised, why such questions come, since the President is also a part of Pakistan. The President canalso have an opinion, he cannot sit with his mouth stitched. Therefore the opinion of the President has to bethere, and the opinion of the public is through the National Assembly.

BBC Listener from Larkana (Sindh) : The bus from Wagah border has been started, and now the airlink restoration date has also been announced. Butwhat is the difficulty in opening the Khokhrapar border?

Musharraf : There is no problem. By the grace of Allah, we would be starting that also. We thought that the number ofthose coming and going via Wagah is quite large. I am fully aware that the transport link through Khokhraparis required, but the rail track there is in a bad condition, it requires repairs. However there is no majorproblem and I accept your demand.

BBC listener from Srinagar: If the Great Wall of Berlin could be demolished, why don’t India and Pakistan learn anything from history ?Why are not Kashmiris from both sides of the border allowed to meet each other, what are you doing to make usmeet ? What about the Muzaffarabad-Srinagar bus ?

Musharraf : You are right. I am making all possible efforts in this direction, and my best wishes are with you. I wantthat your problems should be minimised.

We are sitting comfortably, and it is the Kashmiris, who are facing hardships. You are speaking fromSrinagar, and I am fully aware of the problems.

So far as the bus is concerned, we have agreed that the bus between Srinagar and Muzaffarabad would run. Weare trying to reduce the travel restrictions for Kashmiris, so that you don’t have any trouble in travelling.We have approved this, and by the grace of Allah, as the process of dialogue moves ahead, we will see how totake this forward to finally reach a solution for peace in Kashmir. It is our endeavour, that this issue besolved.

BBC: India says Pakistan promotes cross border terrorism in Kashmir, some of the ministers of the presentgovernment in Pakistan have said that their country provides moral support to the struggle of Kashmiris. Todayyou are yourself saying it is an indigenous struggle. How would the process of dialogue move forward in such ascenario?

Musharraf: See, the point of view has to be futuristic. We have to look for a solution, which is for the future. India isstill talking about the past and the present. I am saying let us move forward, let us sit and talk and looktowards the future. This is a four step process: first of all let us talk, then let us accept that Kashmir isa problem which as to be solved and then have a composite dialogue which includes Kashmir.

The third step is that the solutions which are unacceptable to India, Pakistan and the Kashmiris, could beleft apart.

Finally, the solutions which are acceptable --  in fact ten to twelve people have already given somesolutions, all of us can select a mutually acceptable one. This would be a win-win situation for India,Pakistan and the Kashmiris. This is a step-by-step way of solving the problem.

Coming back to your question, that India and Pakistan have a widely different point of view, I say forfuture there should not be differences, India should understand and so should we.

BBC: Do you think that after September 11, 2001, there is no future of the armed struggles going on in Kashmir andother parts of the world?

Musharraf : See what is happening in Kashmir is an indigenous struggle. I think that it would end only when the process ofdialogue starts and we start heading towards a solution. The process has not even started at the momentbetween India and Pakistan. Just confidence building has started. Let us sit and talk, but the problem isIndia does not talk on Kashmir, and that is why both of us are stuck where we were long ago. What is requiredis that the talks begin, which include Kashmir also. Then whatever is happening there would slow down andfinally come to an end.

BBC: The Prime Minister of Pakistan recently announced a unilateral ceasefire, which as been accepted by India. Iwould draw your attention to what the Indian Deputy Prime Minister Lal Krishan Advani has said today (1stDec).

Advani clip: "Cross-border terrorism has not stopped. Even though the cease-fire is not meant to end cross-border terrorism, we have accepted it. However, the favourable reaction [to the cease-fire] should not in any way make us complacent, because terrorism is still continuing. A lot of infiltration has already taken place and the infiltrators now sitting inside India do not hesitate to kill innocent people."

BBC: Gen Musharraf what do you have to say on this? What is your reaction?

Musharraf: Well, they start saying anything and keep on changing their statements frequently.

The armed forces fire on the Line of Control (LoC), since there is a ceasefire now, therefore no firing istaking place. We had proposed this three months before, these people rejected it at that time. Now they haveaccepted it, they say something at one point and something else at the other time.

Let me tell you another thing, they used to say earlier that infiltration takes place under the cover offiring by Pakistani forces. Now when there is no firing on the LoC, so how is the infiltration taking placenow? [Winter has set in, the situation on the ground is different -- Ed, outlookindia.com]

They had already been levelling such allegations. Even if two birds fly, they would say infiltration istaking place. I say what is happening in Kashmir is an indigenous struggle, they should accept this thatwhatever is happening there is an internal creation. Take the peace process forward, then only can things berectified.

BBC listener from Germany: There is a list of 20 terrorists wanted by India, who are also on the most wanted list of INTERPOL. India saythey are in Pakistan, a list has also been given. What do you say ?

Musharraf : India has given a list of 20, I can send a list of 50. See there is no shortage of lists. I was given a list,which includes the name of Advani sahib. I can send that list to India, but till where would we keep onfighting on such lists ?

This is no solution, let us think towards the future. If you have any misunderstanding, then let me tellyou that militant acts are not taking place there only. The bomb explosions which are taking place inPakistan, in many cases we are certain that the Indian intelligence agencies are behind these blasts!

The list given by them has no evidence behind it, we would take action only on the basis of evidence.

BBC: You have said Indian leaders have been changing their statements frequently, but on Saturday the President ofAfghanistan Hamid Karzai said Taliban leader Mullah Mohammad Omar has been spotted in Pakistan. So are allyour neighbours lying ?

Musharraf : Karzai sahib gave this statement sitting comfortably in Kabul. If he knew where Mullah Omar is, why did he notpass the information to us, so that we could have nabbed him.

Karzai said he was reading Namaz in a mosque, if Karzai knows so much sitting in Kabul, why does he nottell us ? He should know that we are against terrorism, and we have achieved maximum success againstterrorism. No country can claim to have done more against terrorism than Pakistan! How can someone say that weare doing nothing.

As a President it is extremely annoying for me – let him tell us what has his government done against theterrorists, that he is accusing us? On our part we have nabbed and killed 600 terrorists. No one should talkin this way, let us all worry about our countries

BBC listener from Belgaum Karnataka : Many years back, the Pakistan government had conferred the honour of NISHAN-E-PAKISTAN to the former IndianPrime Minister Morarji Desai. Do you think that Pakistan would like to give it to someone in India today. Isanyone worthy of it in your view ?

Musharraf : I would like to nominate Vajpayee sahib for it if we move forward towards solving the Kashmir issue. If thereis an achievement, which is significant from Pakistan’s point of view, we would like to honour anyone.

BBC: You have been saying Kashmir is an indigenous struggle, India does not accept this. How would both thecountries move forward for a dialogue ? What is the solution ?

Musharraf : What do you mean by what is the solution? There is no solution because the struggle is going on.

How would the struggle end, you are in fact talking the opposite, I say when you move towards the solution,then would the struggle end. It is not as if the solution is not taking place because of the struggle, seethis is a political issue and we would do our best to find a political solution. The solution would have to beone, which is acceptable to India, Pakistan and the Kashmiris. Once such a solution is found, the strugglewould end.

BBC listener from Rajasthan : Mr President, you have been talking about the Kashmir struggle, and the government of Pakistan has been sayingit provides moral support to Kashmiri struggle. Why don’t you remove Pakistani forces from Pakistanadministered Kashmir, how serious are you about it?

Musharraf : I have not heard such a question in my life .India has seven lakh soldiers in Kashmir, whereas Pakistan hasonly fifty thousand. Ask the Indian government, if they are ready to remove their seven lakh forces, we willremove our fifty thousand tomorrow .

BBC: Some time back, you had said that any leader of Pakistan who tries to give up Kashmir, cannot remain theleader of the country. India is not ready to give up Kashmir, and Pakistan is not ready to accept anythingless than Kashmir. Why are politicians on both sides using this as a political issue to save their chairs ?

Musharraf : This is a wrong perception, please look at the reality. Kashmiris are a part of the society of Pakistan. Thatis there in Azad Kashmir, and in our entire country. It is their feelings, emotions and expectations.

My joint chief of staff is a Kashmiri. The Information Minister is a Kashmiri, and there are many Kashmirisaround me. Kashmir issue has been going on since 50 years, how can we all of a sudden say that we can forgetabout this?

This is totally unrealistic and dangerous and this cannot be done. A militant action could take placeagainst any government in Pakistan. More than that, there are some principles of a government,there are national interests of Pakistan and there can be no compromise with the national interests.

If any leader does give up the issue, I would say he will be a very weak leader. I think that nonation in the world, would compromise with the national interest. Also remember the UN resolutions of 1948.

BBC : What are your expectations from the SAARC summit scheduled to be held in Islamabad early next year ?

Musharraf : We have high expectations from the summit. First of all I am very hopeful of the summit taking place asscheduled. Earlier, it was uncertain whether the summit would take place at all. Next, we hope that PrimeMinister Vajpayee sahib will participate.

I also hope that Vajpayee sahib will meet with all the leaders here. I am also hopeful that maybe talkstake place, and whatever talks take place, they would be effective, useful and point to a good future.

BBC: Are you meeting Prime Minister Vajpayee ?

Musharraf : Yes, if he wants to meet me, I will meet him. See, I am saying he should not get an impression, that since Ihave been saying this time and again, I am desperate to meet him. Let me tell you, I am living here andsitting comfortably, there is no problem. I would meet him only if he wants.

The programme was presented by Nagendar Sharma for BBC Hindi and Shai Naqie Jamie for BBC Urdu. NayeemaAhmad was with President Musharraf in Rawalpindi.