'India And Pakistan Have To Make The Decisions, Not The US'

Rumsfeld: Good afternoon. Mr. Fernandes and I have had good discussionstoday. It is not our first meeting. We met in India some months back.

Needless to say, I thank the minister for the very strong support that India hasprovided for the war on terrorism since September 11th. Both of our nations knowfirsthand about terrorism. We have a common interest in defeating terrorism inAfghanistan. And needless to say, the United States' stand against terrorism isprincipled. We think about terrorism against India in the same terms that wewant India to think about terrorism in the United States.

We discussed the crisis and the tension in the region between India andPakistan. President Musharraf's speech last Saturday and the actions he's takingto implement the steps that were outlined in the speech, we are certainlyhopeful will go a long way towards lowering tensions and promoting aconstructive dialogue between India and Pakistan. President Bush, of course, hasbeen in touch with the prime minister of India and the president of Pakistan.Secretary Powell has just arrived, I think, right now in India --

Fernandes: Yes.

Rumsfeld: -- and will be conducting meetings there and have forcefullyexpressed the hopes of the United States that the tensions will be reduced andthat discussions will take place.

Today Minister Fernandes and I signed a U.S.-India Bilateral General Security ofMilitary Information Agreement, paving the way for greater technologycooperation between the United States and India. And we discussed the goodprogress that our two countries are making in our security relationships.

We began -- I began, with the Bush administration, my contacts with India inFebruary, less than a month after I arrived at the Pentagon, and there have beena series of meetings since at all levels -- ministers of defence, foreignministers and at various other levels of the two departments. In the comingmonths, we have an ambitious schedule of meetings on counter-terrorism, onservice-to-service exercises, further strengthening the friendship andcooperation between the two -- the world's two largest democracies.

Mr. Minister, welcome.

Fernandes: Thank you.

Well, I'm grateful to Secretary Rumsfeld for his gracious invitation and for theintensive discussions our delegations just had. The purpose of my visit has beento discuss the issues of defence and security cooperation between India and theUnited States, which has not only been revived but expanded considerably overthe last one year. My delegation has found our discussions today very fruitfuland an important milestone in this expanding relationship.

Today this relationship is qualitatively different from the days of the ColdWar. After Secretary Rumsfeld's visit to India in November, 2001 we held asuccessful meeting of the Defence Policy Group. And this meeting took placeafter a break of four years. We expect to continue these meetings in the timesto come. And we believe that we are on a forward movement insofar asstrengthening our relations and also insofar as dealing with all the challengesthat we are both facing in our respective areas of concern.

Secretary Rumsfeld just mentioned about his visit to India, which was a verybrief visit -- not even a full day, he spent half a day. He just came. He satwith us. We had a very serious interaction on various issues, and he left. So Ihave -- (laughter).

Rumsfeld: It's the story of my life. (Laughter.) Many of these peoplewere with us on that trip, and -- it was, I think, six countries in three daysor something.

Fernandes: Yeah, I know. And so, I have today extended a formalinvitation to him and suggested that he should visit India at the earliestpossible opportunity. And I leave the decision about the date to SecretaryRumsfeld.

Rumsfeld: Thank you very much.

Fernandes: Thank you.

Rumsfeld: Charlie, we'll start with you, and then we'll come over.

Question: Mr. Minister, might I ask, as Defence minister are you doinganything, or is anybody doing anything to stop or back away from your militarybuild-up on the border with Pakistan? And are you disappointed all in UnitedStates pressure on Israel not to transfer AWACS and other weapons to you for thetime being?

Fernandes: Well, I do not think that the United States had put anypressure on Israel as far as I am aware. Just before I left to Delhi, I wasconfronted with this question by the media, because of some report which theysaid had appeared in the Washington Post. When coming here, I was told that theWashington Post didn't have any such story. And who has ever used that as somesort of an anchor to give credibility to it was doing disservice both to theUnited States and to India, and also, for that matter, to Israel. So there isn'tany substance as far as I am concerned in this report.

Your first question was about our troops being in the front lines. It is truethat troops on both sides are on the front lines. We -- in light of whathappened on the 13th of December, when there was this attack on our parliamenthouse -- and that attack was not on the structure of the parliament house alone,that attack, we have absolutely no doubt whatsoever, was designed to eliminatethe entire political leadership of the country, whether of the ruling coalitionor the opposition. And it is luck or providence, I believe, that saved us. Andnot just saved us, but saved the country, because the implications of this axisof that suicide mission would have been impossible to really imagine theconsequences of it for the entire country and, for that matter, for the entiresubcontinent.

So against the backdrop of that, one had to take some really strong steps. Andagain, we had noticed earlier also that the Pakistani army after doing someexercises had chosen to stay in some of the areas which they considered as softareas for us. And in the aftermath of that 13 December incident we decided thatwe need to immediately safeguard our frontiers, and we prepared for anyeventuality. And that's where both sides are at the moment.

Question: Mr. Secretary, is --

Rumsfeld: What I'd like to do, we only have about 15 minutes. And ratherthan people ask two questions at once, if we could do one question, and I'mgoing to alternate between the U.S. side and others, if I can.

Question: Mr. Secretary?

Rumsfeld: Yes.

Question: First of all, sir, I just want you to know that you are doing agreat job. There's no question about it.

Rumsfeld: Thank you, sir.

Question: And number -- my question is that -- are you asking India orhave you asked Mr. Minister to remove the Indian forces from the tension border,where both forces are aiming at each other and clouds of wars are still there?

And finally, the future of India-U.S. military relationships, sir.

Rumsfeld: Let me respond this way: I think the United States and Indiahave a growing and healthy relationship on a military-to-military basis, which Ivalue and I know that India values. And we look forward to seeing it evolve overthe years.

With respect to the situation on the Afghan-Pakistan border, which is of coursesomething that is of considerable interest to us, because we are most anxious tosee that the terrorists in the Taliban and the al Qaeda do not escape out ofAfghanistan into Pakistan, I don't think it's in anybody's interest that thosefolks end up in Pakistan, whether -- it's not in Pakistan's interests, it's notin our interest, it's not in Afghan -- Afghanistan's interest, because they cancome right back across that border, and it's certainly not in India's interest.

So it is correct that the United States at various levels -- and certainly theminister and I have discussed this subject from time to time, and I'm sure theminister and his government is sensitive to that, just as we are and -- now,from the U.S. side. Yes, Bob?

Question: Can I ask you a question about Guantanamo Bay and the detentionsituation there? Those who are not -- those detainees who are not put before amilitary tribunal -- will they be held there indefinitely, then, or will they bereturned to their home countries? Have you decided that?

Rumsfeld: The situation is that there are people who have been fightingand killing people in Afghanistan, who are now being held, in some cases, inPakistan, where they have crossed the border into Pakistan and Pakistan hascaptured them; in some cases, in Afghanistan, in two or three locations,including Kandahar, where the largest detention center is; and increasingly inGuantanamo Bay, Cuba, with a couple of exceptions aboard ship -- U.S. ships, fora variety of reasons, medical or whatever.

The issue as to what happens to those people will follow the interrogations andthe process of getting as much information out of them as we can, so that we canstop other terrorist attacks.

Then a decision will be made as to their disposition. Some may or may not end upin a military commission. Others conceivably could end up in the U.S. criminalcourt system. Others could be returned to their countries of nationality and endup being prosecuted there.

It's conceivable some could be kept in detention for a period while additionalintelligence information is gathered, or if they simply are dangerous -- andthere's no question -- there are a number down in Guantanamo Bay who, every timeanyone walks by, threaten to kill Americans the first chance they get; these arequite dangerous people -- they may just be kept in detention for a period. Andthose issues are all being sorted out by lawyers and experts and peopleknowledgeable about international law and conventions, which I'm not.

Yes?

Question: Mr. Minister, there is a report in the -- for both of you,there is a report in the Wall Street Journal today that while some action hasbeen taken against terrorists in Pakistan, no action whatever has been taken inPakistan-occupied Kashmir, what they call Azad Kashmir, and also -- (inaudible)-- training have not been closed down. And I want to ask both of you whetheryou're committed to what Nawaz Sharif and President Clinton signed, namely, thesanctity of the Line of Control.

Fernandes: Well, such action -- call it terrorist action, call it by anyother name -- is something that we have been living with for a long, long time.We are a part of the global coalition today, and as a part of this coalition, wehave been cooperating with each other in addressing this particular problem.

As far as the border itself is concerned, nothing has changed. This morning whenI was about to leave my hotel to proceed to Arlington, I got this piece of newswhich said that yesterday in Jammu the same terrorists attacked civilians with-- by exploding a bomb -- one person died -- a report which I get almost on atwice daily basis when I am back home. So we have this problem, and what wasagreed with Nawaz Sharif may not hold with the establishment that Pakistan hastoday. But against a backdrop of the recent developments, I have reason tobelieve that sooner or later these issues will now be on the way to resolution.

Rumsfeld: We have two more minutes. We'll take two questions. We'll taketwo questions. And the questions can be of either of us, but not both --(laughter) -- and can be one question. We'll start with you.

Question: Mr. Minister, as the U.S.-India military relationship expands,would India like to buy U.S. military equipment, and are you optimistic thatSecretary Rumsfeld would approve that?

Fernandes: Yes, we have had that kind of relationship with the UnitedStates for many, many years. Unfortunately for a brief interregnum, if I may usethat term, that had come to more or less a standstill. I am very happy thattoday we have been able to revive that -- today meaning not as in date, but muchearlier -- we have been able to revive that relationship, and we look forward tomuch greater cooperation between the United States military and our military,and also procuring such of these items that we need to procure from here.

Question: Could you list a few items?

Fernandes: Well, I can't just now spell out the various items that wewould like to have -- (laughter) -- but we need -- I'll make a point. We starteda project together, the Light Combat Aircraft project, together almost twodecades ago. And we need the engines for that. We were to have gone aheadtogether on this project. But then we parted company, and now we have againjoined hands. That's just one of the many that one can cite. But this to me is avery, very important one.

Rumsfeld: And last would be someone from the Indian press, possibly? Yes.

Question: This is for Secretary Rumsfeld. Well, you have given veryhandsome praise to General Musharraf's speech, saying that everything would bechanging. But after having faced 10 years of proxy war and having lost 53,000innocent lives, do you think that there is reason enough for India to dismantleits military buildup?

Rumsfeld: Well, I generally leave these questions to the president of theUnited States and the secretary of State, Colin Powell. And so to reallyparaphrase them, the United States, needless to say, did feel that PresidentMusharraf's speech was forthcoming. And I believe that the comments I've heardfrom senior officials of the Indian government suggest that they, too, feltthat, and that the next step, then, is for actions to take place, and that -- Iam personally persuaded that General Musharraf is moving within his governmentto take actions, to follow up on the speech that he made.

The long and the short of it is that India and Pakistan have to make thesedecisions. It's not the United States that makes these decisions. It's not anyother country. I do not believe it is in either of their interests to stay for along period at a state of high mobilization. I think the tension is unhelpful tothem, unhelpful to the world, and I'm hopeful that the leadership of those twocountries will continue on the path they seem to be on to attempt to find waysto either directly or indirectly discuss these matters, and that over the comingweeks and days we will see a relaxation of that tension and some dialogue takeplace that will lead to a peaceful resolution of the variety of issues thatstand between those two countries.

Question: What kind of action, Mr. Secretary? What --

Rumsfeld: We -- we -- we thank all of you for being here. (Laughter.)We're going to excuse ourselves.

Fernandes: And thank you.

Rumsfeld: Thank you, sir.