'The Reaction Has Been So Minimal Among The Urban Educated'

Subhoranjan Dasgupta: Your first book Jhansir Rani (The Queen ofJhansi) was published in1956. Itsformat was conventional -- that of a biographical novel. Since then you havebeen ceaselessly productive and have broken new ground with novels like Araneyer Adhikar (The Right to the Forest) and Titu Mir where your political and human commitmenthas found eloquent expression. How would you describe this evolution, thisprogress?
Mahasweta Devi: I do not believe in describing the evolution myself.But first Ishould say that Jhansir Rani was not a novel in the accepted sense of theterm. It was my feeble attempt to write a biography based on historicalresearch. Moreover, for the first time, I utilized oral tradition here assource-material of history and this I have been doing ever since. In fact,in order to write Jhansir Rani, I went to the people of the region, Icollected the local ballads and folklore. After this first attempt, myother texts came where I tried to trace -- what you might say -- the 'man-graph'.This was an unbroken process. My interest in human history deepenedthough it was different from the interest professed by conventionalhistorians. I tried to examine the impact of history on human beings.Awareness of history leads to the enquiry of moving human patterns,documentation of time, struggles and revolts. All these constitute historyand I am a part of it.

And that is how 'Araneyer Adhikar' and 'Titu Mir' came intobeing?
Not only these two novels but also so many other stories andworks of fiction. For example, my creative account of Sidho-Kano'srebellion and my narrative of the first Santhal revolt of Baba Tilkamajhi,my stories in Gram Bangla (Rural Bengal) -- and many others. Even the very recent defianceof Suraj Ragrai who tried to stop the construction of a dam that would haveevicted tribals in the eighties should be mentioned in this context. Iwrote on this defiance as well.

You are constantly writing, so it is very difficult to singleout a novel which could be described as the watershed, as a turning point.But many still regard your classic Araneyer Adhikar as such. Do youagree?
Araneyer Adhikar is, indeed, very important. Though this doesnot mean that I am minimizing the importance of texts like Amritasanchay (CollectingAmbrosia)and Adharmanik (Jewel in the Dark) You see, Araneyer Adhikar is different in tone andtenor, it revolves around the revolt of the tribal hero Birsa Munda. Iwrote this novel with a clear purpose and because I nursed a soregrievance. Nowhere in the conventional history-writing of our freedommovement has tribal revolt been given its due importance. The clearanti-imperialistic nature of this revolt has not been recognised -- tribalshave been ignored by historians. I wanted to correct this very, very bigmistake and, of course, my first-hand knowledge of the place and the peopleconcerned helped me a lot. I really do not understand this silence. BirsaMunda died in 1900, he soon turned into a legend, a myth and inspiredfreedom fighters for a long time.

You have been deeply involved with the Adivasis -- with their lives,their problems,their aspirations. What draws you so inexorably to the Adivasis? Thisquestion is important because you have also said that you did not go tothem to seek mere material for your fiction.
Subho, I cannot explain. I can only say that I chose, that Iopted for them ignoring the mainstream. I did not go to the Ganga andJamuna, I went to the unknown rivers and hills deliberately, to the junglestreams. You know why? The tribals roused my sense of respect for them,great respect and deep love. Let me declare -- I have not seen till date sucha civilized community. Tribal society in this country is much morecivilized, sophisticated and knowledgeable than others. I went to them tolearn, not to teach. I went to them to seek inspiration.

Your bypassing the mainstream and going to the margin isintrinsically connected with your concept and vision of history. Do you atall think that the real history of the Indian people has been written?
There is absolutely no doubt that there are yawning gaps in ourconventional historiography. I am aware of it but this painful awarenessdid not lead me in a conscious manner to the tribals. I just went to themand the more my age advances the more I want to strengthen my bonds withthat society-with their oral tradition, system of knowledge, memory. I amreally shocked at the ignorance of many. By tribals these many would implyonly Santhals, even in West Bengal. Though there are so many other tribeswho are not Santhals.

You have referred to the role of the oral tradition and theimpact of collective memory. Your close friend and writer AkhtaruzzamanElias of Bangladesh who died some years ago also attached a lot ofimportance to memory as you do. Why?
Memory is so crucial, past is so crucial. Tell me, what is ourpresent other than a continuation and product of the past. Similarly, ourfuture is born out of our present. So, in order to understand our presentand visualize our future we have to go back to our past with the help ofmemory. The more I am growing old, the more I realize that the past needs amuch better documentation. We have to do this otherwise the past could getobliterated. Think of the present Bengali middle-class -- does its youngmembers recall ever how their grandparents lived. The same is happeningwith tribal life. The influence and impact of the pressing 'Outside' isdisturbing its nature, system, tradition and beliefs. If no effort is madeto preserve these, a big erosion might take place. This is the time to goto them and help them in their act of preservation, in their retaining thecrux of the tribal experience. This urgency on my part is reflected in myshort story The Last Shamanin, which I consider to be very important inthis respect.

Well, in many such texts women with their courage, fortitudeand bravery play a pivotal role. In Rudali and Gohumani for example.With these stories in mind, some claim you are an integral part of thefeminist movement. Now , do you regard this movement, this women struggleas an integral part of the total socio-economic fight for emancipation ?
Women's fight and women's assertion is not something entirelydistinct. It is very much a part of the broader struggle. You have justreferred to Rudali and Gohumani -- these have emerged from my engagementin Palamau, the poorest district in Bihar, where class-based feudaloppression crushes the deprived-men, women, children. The women fightagainst this oppression because they have to live, they win and they live.I have a special weakness for Gohumani. Though bonded-labour wasabolished by law in 1976, it still survives in Palamau. Well, in 1979-80, the bonded labourers there began their fight, for the first time inIndia. I was present there and Gohumani is an outcome of that experienceand struggle. Hence, it has to be stressed and restressed that the women'sfight is an indispensable part of the bigger fight.

This intense involvement with the tribes -- with the Lodhas,Sabars and others -- has taken a lot of your time. As a result, your time forcreativity has been reduced. Has this reduction affected the literary oraesthetic quality of your work?
Let me answer this briefly. Point one, I do not think thatliterature should be measured with the separate yardsticks of style, structure, expressiveness, technique. Any worthwhile evaluation of literatureshould take into account the message and perspective. The question shouldbe -- has the style or structure been able to convey the message or create thehuman cum historical perspective.

Point two, I know that my activism has demanded a lot of time but this timeI have given willingly. Because this process of activism has deepened myexperience, given it concrete shapes, defined the nucleus of my commitment.I have been a professional writer since I wrote Jhansir Rani , that is, Idepend on my earnings as a writer for my living and I am once again back tomy vocation in real earnest. Only last year I wrote the novel --Budhan-ekti Raat Kahani which is a depiction of brutish reality as well asan example of magic realism. Without this element of magic realism, youcannot explain the tribals. I shall be writing the sequel or second partthis year-I have kept notes in detail and this would be a really ambitiousventure. Raat kahani refers to the narration of stories at night and itincludes legends, tales, recollections -- all a part of the rich oraltradition of the tribals. It is the source of magic realism.

Would then this be the epic which you desired to write on thelife of the tribals?
Perhaps, could be. Budhan, a tribal, was killed in 1998. Seeking justice we went to the High Court and won. Budhan belonged to a denotified(ex-criminal) tribe and for the last twenty years I have been fighting for these denotified tribes. I have written so many articles on their plight but the reaction has been so minimal among the urban educated. So many Lodhas had been killed, Chuni Kotal committed suicide but so few are aware of these happenings. I mean, so few of the middle-class. Lodhas and Sabars are killed just because they are born into these denotified tribes while much greater criminals romp away scot free. Even the enlightened Bengali middle-class did not react. But, fortunately, the tribals themselves have responded and helped and with the cooperation of the Sabar community we are active in Purulia. The tribals regard me as their own. Will you believe, at this moment, 60 million in our country are members of such denotified tribes who neither have ration cards nor voting rights. They are simply forgotten. So, I think, by narrating the story of Budhan I shall be writing the story of these 60 million, of their deprivation and their struggle.

Many artistes and directors belonging to other creative spheres have returned to your stories time and again for their ventures: Usha Ganguly, Govind Nihalani ...
As for Usha, she is always ready to choose brave and unconventional themes for her productions. I shall never forget her Court-Martial -- it was excellent.

Why is your fiction most translated from Bengali to other languages, Indian as well as foreign?
This question you should put to the translators. Ask them. Let me mention an interesting detail. My Araneyer Adhikar received the Academy Award after it had been translated into Hindi. Well, I receive letters every day from non-Bengali readers. They have read my work in their languages and say that my texts are very Indian, in the sense they reflect the Indian reality faithfully and they can identify themselves with this reality.

From Sahitya Akademy to Magasaysay, you have won so many awards. How do you react to these?
In spite of all these awards, I simply remain what I am. I should say that these awards do not stir me deeply, they do not touch my inside. I am sorry to say this.

Adivasis, whom you love and live with, are now the target of the Sangh Parivar. They are being converted or as the Parivar says 'brought back' to Hinduism....
I had been protesting against this for quite some time. The programme of the Sangh Parivar began in the eighties and I saw it in operation in Jamshedpur and nearby -- tribals being used for RSS parades and to ignite communal riots. You see, Adivasis are nature-worshippers, basically. They are also very simple and therefore can be won over easily. This is very very unfortunate, the role and activity of the RSS.

You grew up in a Communist atmosphere, your husband was the famous dramatist Bijan Bhattacharjee who was a party-member. But somehow you broke off from the conventional Communist orbit of the proletariat and the middle-class and reached the marginal people. How could you effect this break?
Somenath Hore, Reba Hore and I were discussing this very point recently. It is true that I grew up in a Communist atmosphere and Bijan was my husband. But I, myself, was not a member of the Party. When I was a student I worked during the Bengal Famine as a Left volunteer but later I have not been much involved. When I was with Bijan I was primarily a housewife. I attended to my son and tried to earn. It is this distance or non-involvement that helped me to proceed beyond the Leftist orbit to the marginal people.

I believe you have quite a few favourite authors -- Advaita Mallabarman, Satinath Bhaduri, Akhtaruzzaman Elias. But who has exercised the greatest influence on you?
To answer this question, I have to go back to our poet of the Middle Ages -- Kabikankan Mukundaram Chakravarti. To him I have paid my homage in texts like Bene-bou(Goldsmith's wife), Kabi Bandaghati Gainer Jiban OMrityu (The Life and Death of Kabi Bandaghati Gain). Mukundaram opened my eyes, he revealed to me the tremendous potential of the language of the people, to the turns of phrases and expressions rooted to the soil.

Do you have any special love for any of your story or novel?
I have to say that I do not regard Hazar Churasir Ma (Mother of 1084) as a masterpiece. People shower it with praise, I keep silent. I regardPterodactyl as a much more meaningful work. Of all the novels I have written I consider the following as important, they deserve a special mention : Araneyer Adhikar, Amritasanchay, Adharmanik, Kabi Bandhaghati Gainer Jiban O Mrityu, Sri Sri Ganesh Mahima.

And now, to the last query which perhaps sums up your quest and aspiration, activism and commitment. From Jhansir Rani onwards, repeatedly, you have recalled the revolts and rebellions of theoppressed -- Birsa Munda, Titu Mir, Majnu Shah, right down till the Naxalites. What lesson have you drawn from these abortive uprisings? Why do you go back to these figures again and again?
I object to the word 'abortive ' because the defeats of these rebels have been more glorious than victory. Take specific instances -- the Sepoy Mutiny, tribal rebellions -- yes, the rebels lost but they were glorious in their defeat. I see the past in that way. Naxalites fascinated me as well-their bravery and sacrifice. Hazar Churasir Ma had to be written because I saw with my eyes what was happening all around and I had to record it.