The May 16 Interview

Rory McCarthy and Luke Harding
Wednesday May 16, 2001
The Guardian

The Guardian: You have said before that sometimes as a leader it's lonely at the top.Given the seemingly intractable nature of the problems that Pakistan seems to face do youever regret having taken power?

General Musharraf: No never. First of all I didn't take power, power was thrust onme. But I think as it stands with hindsight it was good for Pakistan that this happened. Ido not regret it, because irrespective of how much pressure there is on me for Pakistan,one is prepared to do anything, to face any kind of hardships and face any kind ofsolitude. When I say "lonely" I mean really for any leader at any level there isan extent of loneliness on top because decision-making is an individual process, and themore you are supposed to take decisions the more alone you feel, because you can have adiscussion all right - but as you go higher the decisions are that much more difficult.And therefore irrespective of any amount of discussion you have, the ultimate decision andits outcome rests on your shoulders. Therefore one is always apprehensive whether one hastaken the correct decision in national interest or not. That remains an anxiety in one'smind, I would say. That is why I said it is lonely but I don't at all regret whatever ishappening in Pakistan.

Do you intend to become president of Pakistan? If so, when would that happen? And whowould you like to have as your prime minister under the civilian government that is comingin the future?

That is a very, very direct question which I wouldn't be able to answer in such adirect manner, although I always believe in giving very, very direct answers. But this isone on which maybe I am unable to give a direct answer.

I just would say that on the political scene we are in the process of devolving powerto the grass-root level in which this local government plan is going on very well onschedule. We then have to come on to the provincial aspects of politics, where we want tosee maximum autonomy being given to the provinces and then we come to the centre.

Now, in the centre we have to ensure a few things. And these are that first of allthere has to be continuity and sustainability of whatever we are doing. All therestructuring and the reforms that we are carrying out will not be reversed there is nodoubt in my mind and I will go to any extent of ensuring that.

The second is that we have to ensure better provincial harmony and third is that wemust ensure that national interest always remains supreme over government interest. Andwhen I say government interest in Pakistan, unfortunately over the last decade - thedecade of disaster, as I call it - government interest has been personal interest,unfortunately. It shouldn't be like that but it has been. It has been personal interest ofthe leader, of the prime minister.

So we will ensure that national interest remains supreme over government interest if itconflicts with national interest. And lastly we would like to ensure that there is abalance of power between the power brokers of Pakistan. These are the elements of whateverwe want to do.

And I will leave it at that, that now we haven't taken any decisions and we areconsidering how to achieve these four - and if there is a role for me in achieving thesefour, I will have to take it on. Yes, I will have to. If it is in the national interestthat I have a role to play in ensuring these four then I certainly won't hesitate inplaying my role.

There is another part of your question: who would I like to have as prime minister?First of all, prime minister will be elected by the people of Pakistan. There is noquestion of nomination of a prime minister.

Who would you not like as prime minister?

Well I certainly think that the two ex-prime ministers outside have no place for primeminister ship in Pakistan, none whatsoever.  

The British government has made available a lot of documentation to do with BenazirBhutto. Were you pleased that you finally got these papers from the British government andhave they been useful evidentially?

Frankly there is such a voluminous paper. We are grateful to the British governmentthat we got these papers. There are about nine or 11 crates filled with papers so it isnot easy to go through them and really sift them and see their legal value so frankly I amnot current on the subject. They are being studied. I wouldn't be able to comment on howuseful they are. I am sure they'll be useful.

You clearly don't feel that Benazir Bhutto has got any future role to play inPakistani politics.

Well, certainly she has been prime minister twice and she has completely mismanaged thecountry and also corrupted the country. So therefore really I would like to ask her: hasthis nation ever given so much opportunity to anybody and that person failed twice and yettries to come a third time to do the same? And she expects the people to repeat thisfolly?

If she does come back, which she has been threatening to do, my understanding isthat she will be arrested because of the outstanding corruption cases against her. Is thatcorrect?

Legal action will be taken against her, certainly, absolutely. She is accountable tothis nation for all her misdeeds in her two tenures. She better answer them and certainlylegal action will be taken.

Would you have a retrial in the SGS case after the supreme court decision?

Yes, certainly it will be retried. She is talking all around the place that she hasbeen acquitted. She has not been acquitted. She is trying to create this misunderstandingand trying to project her innocence through the supreme court judgement. Unfortunatelythat is not the case. Any person who understands the judgement, who has gone through thejudgement would understand it. She has not been acquitted at all. She is to be retried,absolutely - and I have no doubt in my mind that there is so much wrong in that case thatthey have done.

There is one other Pakistani politician in the UK at the moment, Altaf Hussain, whohas just been given a British passport while he is facing several criminal cases in thiscountry. What was your reaction when you heard the news?

I certainly wouldn't say that I am too happy about it, because Britain must understandthat such political asylums being given to people who maybe have worked against or areworking against the interest of Pakistan should be given more serious thought beforetaking such action.

Will you make an effort to bring him back to Pakistan to face trial?

I haven't given this a thought really. I don't think he has any place in Pakistanipolitics. I would like to stabilise the political environment in Pakistan, and in thiseffort certainly Karachi and Sindh need the stability which is going on at the moment, soI don't want to create waves in the waters at all.

NMD is very much a topic of the moment. Do you think NMD is a good idea?

Frankly, I think it will lead to resumption of nuclear and missile race. Pakistanreally is not concerned but maybe indirectly it may get pulled into some kind of aresponse because this NMD by the United States I wonder what the response by China andRussia is going to be. And once that happens, and if we enter into a new nuclear missilerace, I would like to see what the Indian response will be. And if that happens, thencertainly we are drawn into the milieu. We haven't considered to that extent but that isthe indirect impact that it may have on Pakistan.

One of the interesting things has been the enormous enthusiasm from India for thisscheme. What do you think of India's sudden enthusiasm for NMD?

I think these are new geo-strategic developments in the region and Indo-US collusion -understanding, shall we say, not really collusion in this - and Indo-US warming up that istaking place. Although basically it appears it is for economic reasons. One has to seewhether this develops further into a strategic relationship. If that happens now that isthe area where one would see with a little bit of anxiety.

You have just had a successful visit from the Chinese prime minister. It does appearas if two distinct camps are emerging: India and the US are pro-NMD, and China, who arebitterly critical, and yourselves. Do you see things dividing down those lines or not?

I hope not. But Pakistan's concern is very obvious. There is a strategic balance in theregion. There has to be strategic balance universally and regionally. In the region thereis a strategic balance. Now, if this strategic balance gets disturbed it certainlydisturbs Pakistan. I only hope that this does not happen. We have very old relationshipswith the United States, in fact we have had a strategic relationship with the UnitedStates throughout our independence, the last 53 years.

So this strategic relationship ought to remain and it should not be disturbed. If itgets disturbed and if it gets disturbed, tilts in favour of India - which should not bethe case, and the latest statements by the US government certainly is extremely balanced Iwould say in their attitudes towards the South Asian region which is very encouraging forPakistan. So it would cause anxiety to us if this strategic balance was to tilt in favourof India but I only hope that the new US administration understands the implication ofthis strategic balance which requires to be maintained in South Asia.

But there has been no envoy from the Bush administration explaining the implicationsof this policy to Pakistan. Why do you think that is?

Well our foreign minister has been invited to the United States. I am very glad becausewe will be able to exchange views and project our views in the region and what ishappening also domestically. I hope this paves the way for closer association betweenPakistan and the United States and a closer understanding of our compulsions andanxieties.

And when I say closer, I mean closer than the Clinton administration, certainly. Thepeople of Pakistan are laying a lot of hopes on the Bush administration and President Bushhimself. Each and every individual Pakistani was in favour of his winning, each and everyone. I don't think there could be a single Pakistani who was against him I would say. Heenjoyed the support of every Pakistani.

Why do you say that so confidently?

Generally it has been seen that Republican governments have been more balanced towardstheir approaches to the South Asian region and towards Pakistan. The previousadministration, I would say, was drifting one-sidedly towards India and therefore there ishope and in the future one feels that the Bush administration will balance out thisrelationship. And the initial indications are very positive, and I look forward to thisimproved relationship. I hope the visit of our foreign minister will certainly balance outthe visit of the Indian foreign minister to the United States and the United States'under-secretary of state's visit to India.

Since October 1999, you have spoken regularly about the devolution of power and theimportance you place on trying to rebuild democracy from the bottom up, from thegrass-roots level. How do you reconcile this with some of the actions that your governmenthas taken - like the arresting of ARD protestors in Karachi and Lahore in the last fewweeks, of the strong police reaction to the protests in Karachi over water shortages andthen the less forceful approach to some of the demands by the religious groups stagingsit-ins or road blocks demanding Shariah law, the closing of girls schools. How do youreconcile these two things with your calls for a rebirth of democracy in Pakistan?

There is no rebuilding of democracy, frankly - it is the building of democracy. Therehas never been true democracy in Pakistan, and I am very sure of that. I am saying thiswith all the strength of conviction that I have. There has never been democracy inPakistan, real democracy, because democracy is certainly not having elected governments.

That is my sad observation on especially the Commonwealth leaders, who are moreconcerned with having elected governments functioning in a country and then least botheredabout how that government is dispensing democracy in that country. The more important ishow an elected government behaves, whether it is democratic in its dispensation. That iswhat is democracy.

I am very sad to say there is a total wrongly placed emphasis on elected governmentsand not then seeing how that elected government is behaving. That elected government andthat elected prime minister may have been the biggest autocrat.

In Pakistan, Mr Zulfikar Ali Bhutto in the 1970s, he was elected. He was the biggestdictator of Pakistan. So we must see what is the environment in a country. If theCommonwealth is bothered about democracy, they must see: is there democracy in thecountry? Is the government democratic in its behaviour? It is dispensation and not just besatisfied with just an elected government, an elected prime minister and they are veryhappy.

I would say that I am not an elected man yes but there is democracy in Pakistan. Ichallenge anyone to dispute this, I challenge anyone from the Commonwealth to come and seethe reality on the ground and then conclude whether there is democracy or no democracyhere. So I would like to ask whether democracy is only an elected government and thenautocratic rule or real democracy where power is with the people.

I am sorry for the longer answer. We are introducing democracy to Pakistan, realdemocracy at the grassroots level. So there is no reconciling. I was reconciled right fromthe beginning. On day one, when I gave my seven-point agenda, one of them was thedevolution of power. That is what I am doing in this one and a half years. I haven'tchanged at all. My stance is absolutely clear. There is devolution of power going on. Itwill be done because that is real democracy. I will bring it.

And actually, the so-called political forces in Pakistan with whom maybe the west ormaybe the Commonwealth feel very at home and very happy, they are the ones who are notinterested really in democracy, I am sorry to say. They are the ones who are opposing thisreal democracy in Pakistan, those who probably the Commonwealth would be happy with ifthey were elected and they were sitting in the assemblies.

Now I am changing all that and there is a devolution process going on. There is noreconciliation. We are totally convinced that real democracy has to be introduced inPakistan in its true essence. That is what I am doing.

Now other irritants, these irritants of the ARD: frankly, I know for sure if I sit athome and sleep and I tell all the law-enforcement agencies go to sleep and don't doanything, I am sure they won't be able to have any support. They will be in some form orother, there will be a couple of hundred people around.

So why arrest 2,000 of them?

We have decided that there will be no outdoor political activity. The moment you allowthis then we will start with all kinds of political activity outside by everyone.

But isn't that the essence of democracy?

A: Yes it is. But at the moment until October 2002, the mandate given to us by thesupreme court, the focus is very clear. I will not allow anything happening in Pakistanwhich disturbs us or which takes us away from our main aim. And the main aim is therevival of the economy of Pakistan, bringing good governance to Pakistan and the politicalrestructuring we are doing.

We don't want to get involved in running around on the streets and hooliganism on thestreets. I am sorry again you are from the west, your perception is different. Maybe yourprocessions are very well organised and they are very disciplined. Here, you allow 400people they will break all the window panes, they will break all your street lights, theywill break all the traffic lights, and this kind of activity is hooliganism.

So we need to learn to be more disciplined. So I wouldn't like to allow any kind ofactivity which has a chance of distracting us from our main objective until October 2002.After that there will be an elected government which we will ensure is also democratic sothere will be true democracy with an elected government and true democracy and then letpolitical activity go on. We will allow it.

And what do you think of the religious groups? Are they an "irritant" too?

A: Religious groups are there, they have their point of view. Pakistan is an Islamiccountry. But I am very clear that Pakistan is a moderate Islamic country. There is noteven 1% religious extremists. Ninety-nine per cent of Pakistanis are moderate, butunfortunately it is this 1% that holds the 99% hostage. I am not disturbed. I certainly amconvinced that with the economic revival of Pakistan, with good governance in Pakistanbeing restored, these negative forces, whether they are religious or political, they willall remain under control. I am not really worried.

Everyone has a right to have his or her viewpoint. But quite clearly, the results ofthe local government which we are analysing, almost 40 districts in which elections havebeen held very clearly only about 1% of the people elected have some kind of affiliationwith a religious organisation. That is the support they enjoy. It is very clear to mewhere they stand.