'It Was The Common Man'

The full transcript of the BBC Hindi special programme Aapki BaatBBC Ke Saath with the All India Congress Committee general secretary SalmanKhursheed and senior BJP leader Ravi Shankar Prasad. Topic for the programme:Would the Maharashtra elections have an impact on the national politicalscenario?

Nagendar Sharma: Mr Khursheed, would Maharastra Vidhan Sabha electionshave an impact on the national scenario?

Salman Khursheed: Yes, the UPA government at thecentre hasemerged stronger and more stable. Those who wanted a change at the centre, andwere trying for it through illegal means, would have to put all their plans inthe cold storage now.

Ravi Shankar Prasad : Well, had the Maharashtra results beendifferent, Salmanji would have said that the state results make no difference atthe centre. Let me make it clear: we have no plans to dislodge the centralgovernment by illegal means, but this alliance has so many contradictions, letus see till when it works. We would continue to do our work as an oppositionseriously.

Nagendar Sharma: Sonia Gandhi and Sharad Pawar have held a meeting, whowould be the next chief minister of the state?

Salman Khursheed: Both the top leaders have had a good meeting. Now boththe Patels – Ahmed Patel from Congress and Praful Patel from the NCP have beengiven the responsibility to arrive at a conclusion. Respecting the verdict andthe feelings of the electorate, in a day - by Monday evening, we should have thefinal decision about the Chief Minister.  

Nagendar Sharma: But last time, since the Congress had more MLAs, thereforeNCP conceded that you could have the Chief Minister;  why don’t you now follow thesame formula?

Salman Khursheed: At the moment we have neither said yes nor no. At themoment talks are on, and the picture would have to be seen in totality. Todayyou have a Dalit chief minister in that state and we are proud that a Congressruled state had a Dalit chief minister. Let us wait how the NCP reacts. Thefinal decision would be taken after considering all aspects.    

BBC listener: What do both the guests have to say about the peoplelike Arun Gawli and Pappu Yadav being elected? They would now be a part of lawmaking process. What sort of a signal is this for the democracy?

Ravi Shankar Prasad: It is unfortunate for democracy. The political parties would have to think very seriously and with allsincerity about this as certain such elements are ministers today. Salman bhai, myself andboth the major national political parties would have to rise above politics andnew laws would be required to stop such elements from entering the parliamentand state legislatures.   

Salman Khursheed: This is an issue to worry about. During thelast 10-15 years, we have seen these retrograde changes, and all of us areresponsible for this. I agree with Ravi that it is the collective responsibilityof all of us now. But what happens is that it gets down to the caste issue finally.No alleged criminal -- or any person under a question mark -- gets elected withoutthe support of their caste or community. If we could put an end to thispractice, then perhaps we would be successful to end this menace. I do not thinkthat by acting legally we would be able to prevent anyone from contesting theelections on the premise that they face charges -- it would become an endlessbattle. By bringing the caste equation problem under check only can we checkthis.

BBC listener: The Maharashtra assembly elections show that boththe Congress and BJP have been relegated to second places in their respectivealliances, by NCP and Shiv Sena. Are you both slowly losing out to regionalparties? 

Nagendar Sharma:  It is important, even more so Mr Khursheed, nowthat youralliance is trying hard to sort out the CM issue.

Salman Khursheed: Well, being behind by a couple of seats nowheremeans that the party is losing appeal. We were given more seats to contest inthe alliance, but if you look closely at the Congress-NCP alliance, there aretwo parties who have a similar history, and when they come together, one of themdoes well in one area and the other partner in different other areas. Theimportant point is that we contested in an alliance and have done well. It is ourcollective victory, and to read anything more than that into it would be a mereexaggeration. Whatever issues are being talked about Maharashtra, were takenseriously before the elections and would be taken seriously now also by the newgovernment.

Nagendar Sharma: Mr Prasad, why did the BJP-Shiv Sena fail to beat theincumbent government? And why was BJP behind Shiv Sena ?

Ravi Shankar Prasad: Let me make one thing clear -- the Congresscontested more seats and won less, whereas BJP contested lesser seats than ShivSena. What was the role played by NCP leader Sharad Pawar during elections? Entire media hasreflected it and I hope Salmanji is aware of that. Now it is up to them to run the government, and, before that,to form it first.

We are saying that the state government of Maharashtra had donenothing notable to have been re-elected again, but we honour the people’sverdict --  in a democracy their decision is final. However, one aspect is gainingstrength and this discussion would gather momentum in the coming days and thatis: how is performance linked to elections? Do those who work well for thepeople get their votes in the elections? Does performance of the governmentreally matter? This question is not restricted to Maharastra alone -- this has tobe asked in states like UP and Bihar also.

Nagendar Sharma: But, Mr Prasad, why did the people not get attracted to theBJP-Shiv Sena alliance, which was in opposition and it was your alliance’s jobto expose the government...

Ravi Shankar Prasad: We exposed the misdeeds of the government withsincerity. Whether it was roads, electricity, debts of one thousand crore rupeeson the state, and so forth. But we now accept the verdict of the people. If you aretalking about issues such as Savarkar and Tiranaga (tricolour), then what ManiShankar Aiyar and the Karnataka government did on these two issues is in frontof the nation. But these are national issues, and that is why we did not makethem election issues.

BBC listener: But Mr Prasad, Shiv Sena, your partner in Maharastra,does not look effective in the state anymore. What are your future plans for thestate?

Ravi Shankar Prasad: The BJP alliance with Shiv Sena is quite old, and ourrelationship with them dates back to pre 1995 days, and do not forget they werethe first to become a part of the NDA. BJP has stable relations with them, wehave shared power in the state with them. This time we were hopeful of winningagain, but could not. However, both of us would play the role of constructive butaggressive opposition in the state.

Salman Khursheed : What I find odd is that on the onehand BJPsays it honours the public verdict, but, on the other, they say it is wrong andthe voters’ decision is not linked to performance. They should at least watchthe governments both at the centre and in Maharashtra for a year or two and thenanalyse why the people of the country decided to vote the way they did --  meaning,against them. It is strange they want to attack from the word go, and inMahrastra the government has not even been formed yet.

Nagendar Sharma: Salmanji, what does the Congress central leadership thinkled to party-led alliance’s victory in Maharashtra?

Salman Khursheed: We are clear on one thing, that when a particularparty is in power, it s bound to be attacked by the opposition. At times, theopposition campaign clicks and at times, as has happened now, the people, thesociety of Maharastra,  reject the opposition campaign and claims. Nowthe BJP saying that the government had not worked well during the past fiveyears is an insult to the people of the state. In Maharashtra, there is a traditional Congress vote, which in thepast was split between NCP and Congress --  however, this time we were together andthis helped the alliance.

BBC listener: Mr Prasad, you have pointed out that the Maharashtragovernment did not work well during the past five years, but has been returnedto power, so is it a vote against casteist and divisive forces?

Ravi ShankarPrasad: To say that the voters of Maharashtra have votedagainst a particular caste and in favour of another is not fair. The electorateof that state has been deciding above all these small issues, and in lines withcaste combinations that is a part of all elections. I feel that with the Congressled UPA government now at the centre, their campaign that development of thestate would be faster with the same combination at the state could have been afactor. The Union Agriculture Minister Sharad Pawargave a Rs 500 crore package to the state as a sop as well.  These things have an impact.

Nagendar Sharma: Mr Khursheed, did the central government have an impact onthe state elections?

Salman Khursheed: There are many reasons for an election victory andmany for a defeat --  it could be one of them.  If BJP today says thatthis wasthe reason, then I can counter by saying that merely a year back, the BJP won instates like Madhya Pradesh and Rajasthan, simply because it had the centralgovernment. It is not as simple as that; there are many factors. The people of Maharashtra had seen that during the past five years,the BJP-led NDA government had not provided proper support to Maharasthra, andthe difference was visible when UPA came to power.

Nagendar Sharma: Mr Prasad, the Congress-NCP alleged during the campaignthat NDA had discriminated against the state on political considerations. 

Ravi Shankar Prasad: Atal Bihari Vajpayee government did not leave any stoneunturned in helping any state government. I say this categorically because I wasmyself a minister in that government. Vajpayeeji had himself visitedMaharashtra many times -- whether it was the problem of sugarcane growers, or anyother problem. All states were treated equally -- there was a single case of AjitJogi, who came and court arrested in Delhi, but that was totally political.

Nagendar Sharma: I feel that BJP-Shiv Sena lost as they had no issue.On theother hand, Cong-NCP also were issueless, but they were a shade better as theylooked after the poor and downtrodden. The BJP has forgotten Ram temple as wellas common man’s issues and is confused at the moment.

Ravi ShankarPrasad: I think this is totally your personal opinion. To say thatwe ignored poor people during our regime is completely unfair. Our democracyis maturing at the moment and we honour whatever role has been given to us by thepeople of the country. Whatever shortcomings are there, would be removed.

Salman Khursheed: But some issues might have been there. They went intogeneral elections with ‘India Shining’ and we went into elections askingabout the plight of the common man. Now had this not been directly linked withthe public, we would not have been elected. The BJP was lost so much in economicliberalisation and globalisation, that they forgot the common man was left outof all this, and that is precisely why we have been given the  position bythe common man to think about them once again. They tried to go to the commonman in the Maharasthra assembly elections, look at their joint manifesto -- but wewere successful as we were telling the people that it is our plank already. TheConstitution gives five years time to a government and we would do our best towork for the common man.

Ravi Shankar Prasad: But the way the government is functioning, and giving usissues everyday, we would be happy to keep raising them. So far as Salmanji hasmentioned liberalisation and globalisation, everyone is seeing the way thegovernment and the Left are in a continuous struggle. We promise to continuespeaking about the common man with all vigour.

BBC listener: Salmanji, you might have won Maharashtra, but inthe byelections in Uttar Pradesh, your party failed to even open the account. Doyou think that the statements of Rahul Gandhi in the recent past are damagingyour party in the biggest state of the country, and you want to rule byresorting to terror and threats?

Salman Khursheed: Well, the people of the country know who rules by suchtactics. It is before the world to see what happened in Gujarat, and what thepeople saw there, not only the minority but the majority community was also notleft untouched there. To expose all this is our duty and we would continue doingso.

Now coming to your question about UP, the caste combinations in thestate today are such that the traditional vote of the Congress is being divided.Coming to the recent byelections,  we have performed well but could notwin. I have no hesitation in saying that we need a long term plan forUP, then would we be able to bring about a change in that state. So far as thestatements of Rahul Gandhi are concerned, it is his right to speak as a memberof the parliament for the people whom he represents.

Ravi Shankar Prasad: I say that is incorrect to say the BJP rules by terrortactics. What happened in Gujarat was totally wrong. But Congressmenconveniently forget that during Congress governments in Gujarat at least 48 riotshave taken place, therefore just to blame others is not right. During Vajpayeeji’s tenure we worked for the country and abovepolitics -- people of Pakistanhave also seen that. Now we have to look after people’s interests by being awatchful opposition, and we shall do that. 

Nagendar Sharma: But UP is a big headache for both national parties,Congress and the BJP now -- both of you are reduced to almost non-players in thefight between Samajwadi Party and the BSP. What are your plans?

SalmanKhursheed: After the demolition of the Babri Masjid, theallegation that Congress faced was that we did not do what was required to stop thisact. This allegation, which was untrue, has led to certain people drifting away fromus, people were misled by this campaign against us. On this, the BJP also closes itseyes when Congress is attacked. If they think what  is happening in UP today is not right, then they shouldunderstand that they helped the movements and allegations to weaken the Congressin UP, and should at least take corrective measures now. This has been the mainreason for the rise of casteist forces in that state.

Ravi Shankar Prasad: I have no hesitation in accepting that our performance in UP has been disappointing.  It is a weakness, and the national partiesneed to rethink about this crucialstate. If we do not go to the past, it is better, otherwise Salmanbhai would dowell to remember who ordered the opening of locks of the mandir shrine