Why No Protests On Capitation Fees?

The full transcript of the BBC Hindi special programme Aapki Baat BBC KeSaath with well-known social-scientist Yogendra Yadav and Dr K.K. Aggarwal president ofFederation of National Capital Territory Doctor Association (FOND) on.

Nagendar Sharma : Is reservation helping the backward classes of society or isit merelydividing the society?

Dr KK Aggarwal : To discuss the very foundation and basics of reservation, Iwould like to take you into the history of hundreds of years and not merely theperiod since independence. It finds a mention in Bhagwad Gita, where Krishnatold Arjun that classification of the society into four groups is according towork and not birth. Those who attained education were Brahmins, those inpolitics and administration were Kshatriyas, those in business Vaishnavs andthose doing other types of works were Shudras. It is a similar classification inBrahmasutras. Historically also there was no question of identifying people bycastes. Now, come to modern days: nobody is opposed to helping any section of thesociety, or providing them all kinds of assistance, including financialassistance, till class XII. But after that they should be able to compete on merit. In a countrywhich wants rapid development, you cannot have doctors and professionals fromamong those people who score 40 percent marks. Give free and compulsoryeducation to students belonging to the OBCs, but they would have to compete atsome time in their lives, would you let those who have forty percent marksbecome pilots?

Yogendra Yadav : I am surprised and disappointed the way educated andotherwise wise people of the country have been talking on reservation. Itappears as if they have limited or no knowledge about this society, thiscountry, its history, its reality and about its figures. I feel both sides needto agree on two minimum things, and unfortunately that is not happening. Firstis, yes, merit is important and should be there. But merit is not merely scoringgood marks in exams. In my view, merit is the gap covered by you in life sinceyour starting point, it is where you are today from the point of yourbeginning.

Second is social justice, it is the fundamental basis and is enshrined in theconstitution. Those who have a complaint with the Constitution, should findother ways of disagreeing with it. Reservation is one of the ways ofimplementing social justice - of course, it is not the only way. Better methods ofsocial justice to replace reservation should be found, but the kind of vehementprotest that has been launched against reservation by an urban, educated andwell-to-do minority of the country has infact ended all scope for a healthydebate on this complex issue and this is a reason for my disappointment.

BBC listener from Shillong : I want to know from both the guests whetherreservation is a solution to really removing discrimination from the country oris it adding to the divide? Why do politicians who have crossed the age ofseventy be allowed to play havoc with the future of this country? Yogendraji,you are a Yadav, do you need reservation for your children?

Yogendra Yadav : I have no objection to your calling me by my caste, thoughthe presenter has objected. You have asked about my child. My daughter does notneed reservation by virtue of her birth and other virtues she has in life. Alsolet me tell you that as per the existing laws of the country, we are notentitled for reservation -- remember there is already a Supreme Court judgement oncreamy layer.

Your question about future of the country has surprised me, because you aretalking about a nation of the 21st Century without talking about justice forall. What would be the future of a country which cannot ensure social justice? Do you want a 21st century nation which has poverty, illiteracy, malnourishmentand a nation which denies opportunities to all sections of the society? I failto understand how would such a nation move forward?

Dr KK Aggarwal : Well, what I want to say is that if the latest reservationproposal for the OBCs is implemented, it would take the reservation to almostfifty percent. This means you have already kept half of the seats out of purviewfor the general category -- now out of the remaining seats for the generalcategory, you say those who do not want reservation can compete in the opencategory, so you are allowing a luxury for some, while you are denying rights ofothers. If this continues, then this country would not be ever able to check thebrain drain. People, especially professionals leave the country when merit isnot honoured. On one hand you want a death sentence for fake medicines andeverybody is careful about contaminated blood, but when it comes to the rightsof those carrying out essential services you talk like this.

Nagendar Sharma : But Dr Aggarwal, the government has already assured striking medicalstudents that general category seats would not be reduced, even if reservationfor OBCs is implemented.

Dr KK Aggarwal : That is not the answer. What would happen after two years? Seethey are talking about fifty-fifty. The increase in number of seats is for OBCs,there is no solution when you increase seats for a particular community.

BBC listener from Florida: There is no denying the fact that social justiceshould be there, but why have reservation continuing for generations? Also whyare we averse to the economic criterion? Actually isn’t the present set-up leading to social injustice towards those who really need it ?

Yogendra Yadav : I broadly agree with your question, but would just like toadd that along with economic status, you should also consider caste. Poverty is aninjustice, and caste adds to it. I agree that creamy layer should not be there -but it would be justified if the protests against this came from those among theDalits and OBCs who were getting adversely affected dueto this. When others point this out,it smacks of ulterior considerations. We can point out the flaws in reservation,but to say that the entire mechanism should be scrapped - that is totallyunjustified.

Dr KK Aggarwal : Here I would like to say something on the economic criterion. What ishappening in the country is that rich people have also created a reservation forthemselves by the way of capitation fees colleges

Yogendra Yadav : I would like to interrupt you because I would like to knowfrom you why have those who are holding anti-reservation banners not spokenanything against capitation fees? Can you tell me how many protests have youdone in past years against this donation menace?

Dr KK Aggarwal : I am saying on behalf of my organisation and doctors communitythat we are opposed to capitation fees. We are saying that those who needassistance should be given all that is possible, but whether rich or poor, nonecan be, and should not be, allowed to kill merit. We want poor students to come tomedical colleges and become good doctors, but on merit.

BBC listener from Patiala : Yogendraji, I agree with you that social justiceshould be there, but why should people get the benefit of reservation in jobpromotions also, since they already availed it for taking admissions?

Yogendra Yadav: I am aware that there are issues and concerns about reservationsin promotions. But we would have to look at all the facts. It appears thatreserved category candidates move upwards very fast in departmental promotions,and many times higher than the people of general category. The real reason forthis is that so many seats of reserved category are vacant in so manydepartments. For example, out of a total number of seven hundred professors inDelhi University, there are a mere four dalit professors! Till the time seatsof reserved categories remain vacant, a handful of those belonging to reservedcategories would move fast upwards. It is time that the nation decided suchseats should be filled. I think that is the solution!

Nagendar Sharma : But Mr Yogendra Yadav, it has been seen in professional colleges thatstudents belonging to reserved categories remain totally silent and in manycolleges even their hostels are separate. So isn’t their identity creatingtrouble for them and doesn't it seem as if reservation, instead of helping them, isproving counterproductive for them?

Yogendra Yadav : It is a very sad fact, but due to this I would not concludethat it is a loss for them. What happens is that when a dalit comes to urbanareas, he/she face discrimination at every step. I am not saying thisdiscrimination is about a glass of water, but it is the blunt verbaldiscrimination, it is the discrimination of calling them SCs. It is thediscrimination of not talking to them and not being friendly with them. A lothas been written about it, but I fail to understand as to why the well-to-doupper caste section insensitive on this issue. It is a harsh life for those whobelong to reserved categories, but due to this harshness, I am not in favour ofwithdrawing the little benefit they get.

Dr KK Aggarwal : Here I would like to point to the other side of thepicture. For example, take a medical class of 100 students, here some are whohave come after securing 90 percent marks and there are others who have comewith 40 percent marks. Now those 90 percenters are happy with what is beingtaught in the class, whereas those with lower marks certainly say the lecturesare not proper as they are not able to follow what is being taught. Even if theywere to become doctors, what kind of doctors would they be?

Nagendar Sharma : But Dr Aggarwal, why is the entire merit discussion confined only toreserved category candidates? Even if they seek admission on a separate list,during five years of medical studies, they pass the same exam as others do.

Dr KK Aggarwal : Well, this argument is given by a lot of people. But see thosewho get in through donation seats and NRI quotas, thrive on their money power in laterstages of life also. They pass exams through corrupt practices and those whocome through reserved seats pass the exams on sympathy grounds.

Yogendra Yadav : I find a major contradiction in what Dr Aggarwal is saying.Who are those professors who are passing candidates through corrupt practicesand on sympathetic considerations? They are professors who are a creation ofthe great merit criterion which has been decided by a handful of forward casteurban Indians. If they are doing such things then they are unethical and needto be brought to book for deceiving their profession as well as the country..