'A Worker Has A Right Within The Rules'

Full transcript of the BBC Hindi Special Programme, Aapki Baat BBC Ke Saath with Sahib Singh Verma on:"Is strike a right of the needy or an evil creating hurdles in the nation's development"

BBC : What do you have to say about the strikes and political bandhs, given the judicial activism beenshown by the courts recently, especially after the Supreme Court observation on government employees strikeand Kolkata High Court’s on general processions?

Sahib Singh Verma : I feel that for any worker, if his prayer is not listened to by the authorities or ifhe has exhausted all channels of grievance redressal, then in such circumstances, a worker has a right withinthe rules to protest. The Industrial Disputes Act, 1947, has a provision for it.

BBC listener from Muzaffarpur : Now the right to strike of employees and workers is gone . What is thegovernment doing to keep their rights safe ?

Sahib Singh Verma :The Supreme Court decision is restricted to government employees and does not include workersin general. As I have said earlier that if workers do not get justice, in accordance with the provisions of the IndustrialDisputes Act, they have a right to strike.

For government employees, there is a strong mechanism for their grievance redressal. Even then if they donot get justice, what do they do? I feel that as a last resort the right to strike should remain .

BBC listener from Delhi : The Supreme Court’s decision is a welcome step. Many people want this decisionto be changed, but what is the government doing to implement the court verdict ?

Sahib Singh Verma : Many employers like you do not want any strikes, I am also not in favour of strikes. But thequestion remains that working people feel that they are not getting justice by any other means. Then as a lastresort, they can go on strike, you cannot snatch away their rights.

BBC : As the Labour Minister of the country, do you accept that the Central government was silent on theSupreme Court decision since the major trade unions have alleged that the government has in fact supported thedecision?

Sahib Singh Verma : The Supreme Court never said that everything must be done according to existing rules.Government employees never had any legal right to strike, but on the basis of practice, employees were goingon strikes. Therefore there was no constitutional right, but over the years, it had become a practical right.

This is what the Supreme Court has said, but the impression that has been created by this observation isthat there can be no strike in the country. As I have been saying, workers have a right under the IndustrialDisputes Act . This is a misunderstanding based on the impression created by the Supreme Court observation, this is notfactual .

BBC : But Mr Verma, this entire controversy was generated on the strike of Tamil Nadu governmentemployees. Four thousand of these employees are still out of their jobs, facing government action. Has theLabour Ministry done anything in this regard?

Sahib Singh Verma : See this sort of a labour matter is a concurrent matter. We have left it on the stategovernments. Unfortunately in this case of the Tamil Nadu strike, the employees did not approach the Centralgovernment. I had said in the beginning also, had they come we would have talked to the state government. Isay that even now if they make a representation, we can think of taking up the matter with the Chief Minister.

BBC listener from Delhi : I think that the strikes and bandhs put the public to a lot of inconvenience, andthe recent Supreme Court order on it is welcome. But what is the government doing to protect the workers’rights? Why does the government not act before the strikes actually begin so that such situations do not arise?

Sahib Singh Verma :I think you are right and nobody actually benefits from strikes and lockouts. So far as thegovernment’s action is concerned, being the Labour Minister of the country, I can tell you from my experience,that the Labour Secretary and the Chief Labour Commissioner have been intervening to avert strike situationsand I am proud of the fact that lakhs of man hours have been saved, which could have been wasted in strikes.

Recently, a situation was emerging in CPWD, Delhi, which could have led to a strike, but I personallyintervened to see that this did not happen. But in all this, it has to be kept in mind, that a worker needs justice, a worker is weak as compared tothe government and the bureaucracy - they must not try to crush the workers rights. Had the employees and the government handled the situation better, and had they settled the issue, thematter would not have gone to the Court, and such comments would not have come.

BBC listener from Surat : The Supreme Court has said, that employees have no legal, moral right to strike,it could be partially right to say this. But what about the rights of the employees in states like Bihar,where the government does not listen, what do employees do there to make their voice heard. Even the AttorneyGeneral Soli Sorabjee has criticised the verdict. Is the Central government filing a review petition?

Sahib Singh Verma :As I have said earlier, for workers, under the Industrial Disputes Act, 1947, they have aright to strike after giving a month’s notice. Now for employees’ rights, this Supreme Court verdict mentions about the ideal situation, meaning aresponsive government; a definitive mechanism of grievance redressal. In such situations, the Supreme Courthas said there should not be strikes.

But you are right, what happens in states like Bihar? I feel that strikes should be a last resort. The governments and the employee unions, organisations should try for such situations to be averted.

BBC : But is the government filing a review petition/appeal on this verdict of a division bench of theSupreme Court ?

Sahib Singh Verma : We have held a few meetings on the issue, but we have not reached a final decision on thematter yet .

BBC listener from Muscat : Government employees are banned from going on strikes. They are being told thatworking beyond the stipulated hours should be the style of protest. Meaning work more when you have a reasonfor protest . Is there any meaning of minimum wages and working hours decided by the Labour Ministry ?

Sahib Singh Verma : The Indian Labour Conference is taking place on 16th, 17th and 18th of this month, thisissue would be discussed there. It is to be attended by representatives of all state governments. Central government employees andemployers will also be there. I feel that workers should get justice and we should avoid strikes for the development of the nation.I hope we can arrive at some consensus on this issue, in this conference.

BBC : Your party, the BJP is the main constituent of the NDAgovernment, and the BJP is considered a strongsupporter of policies of liberalisation. There is a talk of changes in the Labour laws, is it due to pressurefrom MNCs ?

Sahib Singh Verma : This government does not work under pressure. There is only one pressure on this government,and that is the pressure of the Indian people. We do not accept any pressure from outside.

Yes, we are amending the Labour laws for the betterment of the workers . Some of them have been finalised.For example, out of our 40 crore work force in this country, 37 crore workers are in the unorganised sector.They are those who work in numerous small sectors, and majority of them work in the private sector, suchworkers have no social security. The Labour Ministry’s law for their social security is ready, it has beencleared by the Group of Ministers. Within the next three-four days, it will be cleared by the Cabinet and thenwe will have a law enacted by the Parliament.

BBC : But does the Labour Ministry have sufficient machinery to keep a proper record of the contributionsbeing made the unorganised workers towards their pension as social security ?

Sahib Singh Verma : Labour Ministry has a nationwide network. For employees in the organised sector we haveoffices throughout the country for managing their EPF (Employees Provident Fund); these offices maintain therecords of workers employed in those areas. Similar is the position with the Employees insurance offices andthe Labour Ministry offices. You would be surprised to know that anywhere in the world, it would take 20 to 30per cent administrative cost in putting the structure for such a large number of people - but since we havethe infrastructure in place, the cost of government of India would rise by only one percent - for the socialsecurity in unorganised sector.

BBC listener from Chattisgarh : Poor labourers from Chattisgarh are lured away by contractors to differentstates, then they are not paid wages and are exploited and in some cases even beaten up and made bondedlabourers. Is there anything the Centre would do ?

Sahib Singh Verma : It is not a question of Chattisgarh alone . It is a serious matter. If labourers from anypart of the country go to other parts and are exploited, it is intolerable.  There is a complete ban on bonded labour throughout the country, and it has to be implemented by the stategovernments. If it is brought to the notice of the Centre, we ask the state governments to take action and if need bethe Centre takes appropriate steps. I have myself been speaking to various Chief Ministers in this regard. But so far I have not heard about any case of bonded labour from Chattisgarh, if you could tell me, I willtake action.

BBC : But you would agree that historically, bonded labour has been a problem in India, and strong stepsare required ?

Sahib Singh Verma : It is not a problem in India alone . Let us take a worldwide view - even in America - and anyother part of the world - the poor, the weak are exploited by the rich and powerful. For removing this evil, it would take time and a collective effort .

BBC : Talking about amending Labour Laws, it is being said that your government is thinking abouthire and fire policy in the name of these amendments?

Sahib Singh Verma : I do not agree with this term hire and fire first of all, and I oppose it. There is noquestion of hire and fire in India. If some elements do not work either for the betterment of employees or the employer, then they have noright to be in the job. Our priority has to be the productivity and the protection of employees' /workers'rights and nothing else. Even the trade unions are now saying that workers should work for increased productivity and disruptiveelements should be weeded out . However their rights have to be protected .

BBC : So no hire and fire in India.

Sahib Singh Verma : Not at all.

BBC : What changes are being brought about in the Contract Labour Law ?

Sahib Singh Verma : In contract labour, work in the industry is the main activity. Other is the side activity -work in the canteen, cleaning, security and other similar jobs; contracts for such works can be allowed, weare making provisions for this (contract labour for side jobs) - because it has been seen that for smallthings the main industry suffers. We are saying that the main job would not be on contract, but the side onescould be. At the same time, we would see that this contract labour has social security like the permanentstaff.

Transcript courtesy, BBC Hindi Radio