'The Mother Of All CBMs'

The full transcript of the BBC Hindi special programme Aapki Baat BBC KeSaath with Mehbooba Mufti, President of the ruling People's Democratic Party (PDP)and Syed Ali Shah Geelani, Chairman of the breakaway faction of the All PartyHurriyat Conference (APHC).

Nagendar Sharma: Would the Srinagar-Muzaffarabad bus be able to serve as a steppingstone in resolving outstanding issues of dispute between India and Pakistan?

Mehbooba Mufti : It definitely helps when you try to work to fulfil people’saspirations. With this bus service, people-to-people contact would increasewhich would change many perceptions, and eventually the public support wouldhelp the establishments of both countries and they would be able to adopt a flexibleapproach from their stated positions.

Syed Ali Shah Geelani : So far as the Kashmir issue is concerned, thebus service cannot be of any help at all in terms of any solution. Till the timeIndian government adopts a realistic approach, an issue which has beenoutstanding for more than 57 years now cannot be resolved. Thousands ofKashmiris have sacrificed for their cause, and they need a real solution to theproblem. Merely opening roads and running buses is no solution.

BBC listener from Anantnag (J&K) : Mehbooba ji, by starting theSrinagar-Muzaffarabad bus , your party has fulfilled one of the electoralpromises, but what about the solution to Kashmir problem, as your party the PDPis neither in agreement with the Indian point of view nor the Pakistani? Youdisagree with the militants as well, then what is your solution?

Mehbooba Mufti : The solution to the problem would come from dialogue.Talks with Pakistan have been progressing well during the past two years. We saythat talks should also be held with those sections which feel alienated in Kashmir.Ever since our government came to power in October 2002, our Common MinimumProgramme has emphasised on this. Things began moving in the right direction, thethen Prime Minister Vajpayee visited Kashmir, and the Hurriyat held two rounds ofunconditional talks with former Deputy Prime Minister Advani.

Now, the presentUPA government also is very serious about continuing the dialogue with all sections.The Hurriyat leaders have expressed the desire to travel to Muzaffarabad to talkto leaders that side, I think Centre would consider this request sympatheticallywith all seriousness. For us, the bus is not merely the mode of transport, itwould act as a bridge between the people of both sides to meet their near anddear ones and remove all misgivings. Our effort is that the ongoing dialogueprocess between President Musharraf and our Prime Minister should reach thecommon masses.

Syed Ali Shah Geelani : Our clear view is that the parameters for the solution have to beclear. Let there be a referendum: if the majority wants to stay with India, wewould accept that, but if the majority wants to go with Pakistan then that hasto be allowed. People of Kashmir have been living a life of uncertainty since 57years, and have been suffering atrocities since 16 years. More than a million armed forces in the state have been given unfettered powers, and human rightsviolations are going on unchecked. India and Pakistan have been talking to eachother for more than a year now -- what change has it made to the situation onthe ground? Has the situation changed even by an inch? We do not oppose talksnor the sports being played, but what is changing?

Nagendar Sharma:Mehboobaji, how do you respond to the allegations of human rightviolations and no change in the situation?

Mehbooba Mufti : During the past year and a half, since PDP-Congress governmentcame to power in the state, look at our track record. Geelani sahib was lodgedin Ranchi jail, he was freed; so were other leaders like Yasin Malik -- all thosewho did not face serious criminal offences were allowed to lead normal lives.They are free to go and do whatever they want. A serious check is being kept onhuman rights violations, whether by security forces or others. The ceasefire onthe borders, which was agreed by both countries, has made lives of people livingon the borders at least tolerable. Recently held civic elections show people arecoming out to vote, and the percentage has been appreciably higher. Now if allthis is not a change on the ground then what is a change, could Mr Geelani tellme? Had there been no change in the situation, could people have turned out inthousands to welcome the bus passengers, and participate in the celebrations?

Syed Ali Shah Geelani : I would like to ask Mehbooba beti, could she please tell me has thegovernment headed by her party fulfilled any of the electoral promises they madeduring the October 2002 assembly elections? They had promised to release alldetenus languishing in jails of the state. Even today 1511 people are lodged indifferent jails of the state, and also in Delhi and Jodhpur.

BBC listener from Uttar Pradesh : Mehboobaji, it is a good thing that thebus has been started, but what about the thousands of innocent Kashmiri Panditswho have been forced to live out of the state since decades now? Is yourgovernment doing anything for them, or have they been left at god’s mercy?

Mehbooba Mufti : We are very clear, Kashmiri Pandits are an important part ofKashmir, and without them we can never claim that the state is ours. Eversince our government came to power in the state in October 2002, we have beentrying to create an environment in which the Kashmiri Pandits voluntarily andhappily decide on their own to return to their homes. The sign of improvement isclear from the fact that Tulmul, a sacred place for the Kashmiri Pandits, whichused to see a gathering in hundreds earlier, now sees a gathering in thousands.

Nagendar Sharma: But does the PDP-Congress government have any policy for their return?

Mehbooba Mufti : Yes, there is a definite policy for the return of Kashmiri Pandits,we have decided to build houses for Kashmiri Pandits in different parts of thestate, and more than two thousand Kashmiri Pandits have informed that they areready to voluntarily return to the state at any cost. They only need security,and this being a delicate matter, we do not want to publicise the whole issue,as whenever a serious effort is made to make our Kashmiri brothers return, thevested interests try to sabotage the efforts by hitting somewhere. Till the timeKashmiri Pandits return to the state, we would not be able to say that normalcyhas returned to the state.

BBC listener from Peshawar (Pakistan): Mr Geelani, your son was given anMBBS seat by Farooq Abdullah government, and the present Mufti government hasspent lakhs on your treatment. Separatist leaders like Abdul Ghani Lone andMirwaiz Farooq, who were more pro-India were killed by Indian security forces,how have you been surviving? Do you take money from Pakistan as well ?

Syed Ali Shah Geelani : All I can say is that your allegations are based on hearsay and aretotally baseless. My son got an MBBS seat on merit, I was on Haj pilgrimage,when he was selected. So far as my treatment is concerned, I was suffering fromKidney cancer, while in Ranchi jail, so I is the duty of those who arrest you totreat the prisoner. There have been fourteen attacks on my life, so kindlycorrect your facts.

Nagendar Sharma: Mr Geelani, other separatist organisations in Kashmir have startedsaying that Pakistan is abandoning them, what is your view on Pakistan agreeingto the bus?

Syed Ali Shah Geelani : Pakistan should not have okayed the bus without keeping Kashmir asthe core issue, it should have done the way General Musharraf did during hisAgra visit, and later while addressing the both houses of Azad KashmirAssembly. The decision of both countries to start the bus without giving full attentiontowards the core issue of Kashmir, is giving rise to apprehensions that thestatus quo may well be accepted as the final solution. As things stand, the fearis that LoC may be accepted as the final line of partition.

BBC listener from Oman : How do you see present UPA government’s Kashmirpolicy?

Syed Ali Shah Geelani : The recent statement of Indian Foreign Minister Natwar Singh thatIndia is ready to talk on any issue without redrawing of borders, clearly showsIndia 's unrealistic attitude, and with such a stand there can be no hope forthe solution of the problem continuing since last 57 years.

Those who are saying that the bus service would lead to great people-peoplecontact, should just look at facts. For example, the bus which came fromMuzaffarabad had some passengers who had to go to Rajouri and Poonch to meettheir relatives. Now first they came to Srinagar , then went to Jammu and finallyto Rajouri and Poonch, when both these places are at a stone's throw distance fromthe border. Why then the poor people had to travel hundreds of milesunnecessarily?

BBC listener from Delhi : Mehbooba ji, do you really think one bus servicecan help solve this contentious issue?

Mehbooba Mufti : The opening of Srinagar-Muzaffarabad bus is the mother of allConfidence Building Measures. If people of Jammu and Kashmir have got anythingduring the last 57 years, if something has been done for them, it is this route.There is no readymade solution to the Kashmir issue, we hope that in the comingdays, the solution to the problem would come through such measures.