'Politicians Are Not Sensitive To Religious Feelings'

The full transcript of the BBC Hindi special programme Aapki BaatBBC Ke Saath with the 'International President' of the Vishwa Hindu Parishad (VHP),Vishnu Hari Damiya and the chairman of the National Commission for Minorities, (NCM),Tarlochan Singh. The subject for the programme: Why is there a clash between religionand law in India?

Nagendar Sharma: Why is the clashbetween religion and law increasing in India?

Vishnu Hari Dalmiya : Itappears that the clash is there and increasing, even though it should not bethere at all.

Nagendar Sharma: But why is ithappening these days?

Vishnu Hari Dalmiya : Politicians are not sensitive to religious feelings and are not givingdue respect as the public of the country does. For gaining political advantage,they do not respect the feelings which leads to the clash you are talking about.

Tarlochan Singh: Thereis nothing in the law of the country which could clash with religion, butsometimes those in power do create a situation, which leads to this clash.

BBC listener from Varanasi : I would like to ask Mr Tarlochan Singh, what is the NCM doing so that allreligions are treated equally in India and the repeat of incidents like Godhraand the Best Bakery massacre does not happen?

Tarlochan Singh : Inthe Indian Constitution there is no provision for special treatment towards anyparticular religion. The Constitution is clear that all religions are equal, andeveryone has a right to worship according to the faith. It is upto thegovernments of the day to exercise restraint, take care that in acquiring landsthey should be patient with religious affairs. But there cannot be a specialprovision for any religion. We do not treat anybody likea criminal before the trial.

Nagendar Sharma: Mr Dalmiya,when the constitution of the country gives freedom to all the citizens topractice the faith of their choice, then why do organisations like yours wish topromote a particular religion?

Vishnu Hari Dalmiya : There isnothing in the Constitution to give preference to one religion over theother, but it happens due to vote bank politics, therefore we are notresponsible, as we do not initiate anything on our own -- it is the politicianswho do so and we just talk in accordance with the feelings of the people.

Nagendar Sharma: But after the recentarrest of the Shankaracharya of Kanchi, it was the VHP which called for acountry wide bandh -- weren’t you objecting the course of legal process ?

Vishnu Hari Dalmiya : It is not aquestion of objecting to the legal procedure. Look at the way the Shankaracharyawas arrested -- on the Diwali night, at around two-two thirty in the night. Pleasetell me whether any prominent political leader would have been arrested in thesame way. If political leaders could be kept in guest houses, what was wrong inkeeping the Shankaracharya in confinement in the math? It would have helped thelaw as well as others. He could have been questioned there itself and the legalprocedure would have been duly followed.

Nagendar Sharma: Mr Singh, what doesthe NCM say in these matters? Is it right to protest outside when the matter isbeing heard in the court?

Tarlochan Singh : There has beensome misunderstanding in this matter. No political party or organisation hassaid anything against the law. It is the manner in which the entire thing wascarried out which has created resentment. The state government should have beena bit more sensitive. I would like to give you an example -- even the Britisherskept Mahatma Gandhi in Aga Khan Fort in Pune to ensure that he was accorded proper treatment. Thelaw should take its own course -- there is nobody against it, but care should betaken that nothing provocative is done in which a feeling of hatred spreads - which would be against the law and society both- and the situation takes a badturn.

BBC listener from Sharjah : Mr Singh, why is there a talk of Constitution and the law only when a religiousleader is arrested? Tell me, where was the law when thousands of Sikhs werekilled in the 1984 riots? Where are the constitutional bodies when themilitants kill innocents? Why is there a hue and cry when militants are killed?

Tarlochan Singh : Ireiterate that there is equality for all before the law. In 1984 riots, it wasthe government of the day which wrongly used the official machinery, there wasnothing wrong in the law. You cannot blame the Constitution for the mistakesmade by the government. In 1984 it was the government which committed themistake and the entire country paid the price for it.

Vishnu Hari Dalmiya : Our view is thatthe law does not give the government any authority to give a preferential statusto any religion, but in practice the political parties have been doing so. Nowtell me what wrong would have happened if the Tamil Nadu government had put theShankaracharya under house arrest in the math itself ?

Nagendar Sharma: So in this particularmatter you were primarily annoyed with the Jayalalitha government?

Vishnu Hari Dalmiya : Mainly thestate government is responsible for this. But we are not ready to believe thatthe state government could have taken such a major step without consulting theCentre, and for that matter the arrest took place in Andhra Pradesh, where thestate government is of Congress party. Tamil Nadu police could not have made thearrest without the cooperation of Andhra government.

Nagendar Sharma: But Mr Dalmiya do youagree with the cultural policing being done by your sister organisations?Recently Bajrang Dal leaders threatened that if Hindu girls marry Muslim boys,their noses would be chopped off?

Vishnu Hari Dalmiya : No this is notright. The local level Bajrang Dal leaders who made such statements were wrong,they should consult their central leadership before speaking on such importantissues. At times when people speak in provocation they go wrong and we do notconsider it right. It is not a work of cultural policing, it should be donethrough persuasion.

Nagendar Sharma: Mr Singh what is theNCM stand on cultural policing?

Tarlochan Singh : Any campaign thatspreads hatred should be outrightly condemned, but care should be taken that anyact of an individual should not be treated as an act of his/her community.Before linking any act with one’s community we should be careful to check theindividual concerned. The major weakness in our country is the lack ofdialogue between the different communities. We preach dialogue to the world, buthow often do the majority and minorities talk to each other in India ? It isunfortunate that in the last 20-25 years no major efforts have been made in thisdirection. Only the National Commission of Minorities last year made an effortto bring the Hindu and Muslim leaders on the negotiating table -- it began well,but then the religious leaders backtracked. But we should not be disheartened.The thrust should be on dialogue, it would solve many problems.

BBC listener from Jaunpur : Why do organisations like the VHP cry about Hindutva only when forward caste leadersare arrested? I would like to remind Mr Dalmiya that the late Mahant RamchandraParamhans refused to take shiladaan from former UP CM Guptaji saying hewas nota Brahmin. Could you tell me what Hindutva you talk about?

Vishnu Hari Dalmiya : It is your wronginference that we stand only for forward castes -- we stand and speak for theentire Hindu society. You would be surprised to know that during a meeting ofDharamacharyas in Kashi we decided to have our meals at the homes of lower castepeople. The shilanayas of Ram Janambhoomi was done by a non-Brahmin, therefore Ireject this allegation.

Nagendar Sharma: Mr Singh, the presentUPA government is bringing a law against communal violence -- what is the view ofthe National Commission for Minorities?

Tarlochan Singh : It is very clear. Wehad recently called a meeting of the Commission on the issue and have welcomedthe government proposal for the reason that in our country those guilty forcommunal riots are not punished. Look at the case of 1984 anti-Sikh riots. Somay Sikhs were massacred and till date, 20 years after the riots, not a singleperson has been convicted. The Indian law takes a long time and because of thedelay involved, the rioters get away without any punitive action. We havewelcomed this as we want early decision on all the communal riot cases.

BBC listener from Delhi : What is your stand on the Central government’s proposal for a Commission todeal with Communalism, as your body did nothing during Gujarat riots?

Tarlochan Singh : So far as the Gujaratriots are concerned, the work of NCM is tabulated in a 800 page volume. What wedid for the riot victims was appreciated by them -- anyone can come to our officeand have a look at our work.

Nagendar Sharma: Mr Dalmiya what isthe VHP view?

Vishnu Hari Dalmiya : Any law againstcommunal violence would be of useful only if it is implemented totally withoutany discrimination, but if there is discrimination, then any such lawwould not be of any use. We have nothing to say against this proposed lawat the moment, what we are saying is that it should be applied equally to allcommunities, and not against any community in particular, that is all.

BBC listener from UAE : Whydo religious leaders think they are above the law? That is the root cause ofthe entire problem.

Vishnu Hari Dalmiya : It is amisconception that religious leaders are above law. But they cannot be treatedlike criminals even before trial. They should be treated in accordancewith their status. The law clearly says that the accused is innocent till provenguilty.

Nagendar Sharma: Mr Dalmiya, the BJPis a party which is ideologically closest to you, then why are you annoyed withit?

Vishnu Hari Dalmiya : Till the timeBJP was in power, it did not do anything for the Hindus which it can mentiontoday. The BJP did not do anything on the issues which it calledcontroversial, but it also did not do anything on the non-controversial issueseither. That was the major weakness of the BJP, which has led to a clashbetween them and us.

Nagendar Sharma: What are yourrelations with the BJP today?

Vishnu Hari Dalmiya : We have noexpectations from them now, when they were in power we had some expectationsfrom them, but now we know that those who did not do anything when in power,what can they do now?

Nagendar Sharma: Despite whatyou are saying, the VHP workers campaigned for the BJP in the last generalelections in May.

Vishnu Hari Dalmiya : There isa lot of difference between working wholeheartedly and just completing theformality halfheartedly without being involved.

Nagendar Sharma: But they wereasked to work for the BJP?

Vishnu Hari Dalmiya : Workersin individual capacity may have worked half-heartedly for them, but at theorganisational level, we did not tell them to work for any party, and theresults are there for everyone to see what fate the BJP met in these elections.

Nagendar Sharma: So still therelationship with BJP would continue ?

Vishnu Hari Dalmiya : It would depend onwhat BJP does and the line it takes towards Hindutva and Hindus. They are sayingthey would be doing, but till today they have done nothing, and therefore it isa bit difficult to trust BJP straightway.