'Go Join The Congress'

Veteran RSS and BJP leader Bhai Mahavir joined the RSS in 1942.Apart from being a pracharak, he was the vice-president of the Jana Sanghin the 1960s. Between 1968-1978 he was a member of the Rajya Sabha. From 1996-1998Bhai Mahavir was a member of the BJP's working committee and president of thecentral disciplinary committee. During the NDA regime he was the governor ofMadhya Pradesh. A descendant of freedom fighter Bhai Parmanand, the veteranleader is irked by the undermining of ideology within the BJP. Speaking to OutlookSaptahik's senior special correspondent he said if the partyleadership wanted to give up its ideology, it should go join the Congress. Excerptsfrom the interview:

What is your opinion on Advani's remarks on Jinnah?

The Jinnah speech Advani was referring to, was nothing but crocodiletears because when a crocodile swallows a fish it sheds tears. Similarly, Jinnahwanted something and when he got it, he behaved like a crocodile.

But why did Advani praise Jinnah?

I am perplexed by Advaniji's statement praising Jinnah, though Jinnah was moresecular than Gandhi when he opposed the Khilafat Movement. Later he understoodthat Muslims could be instigated into doing anything and he embarked on the samepath. To term Jinnah as someone who creates history is beyond my understanding. For me, nationbuilders like Ashoka and the creator of modern India, Sardar Patel, are creatorsof history,  but now Jinnah has also become one. If persons responsible for dividing thenation are considered creators of history, then Bhindranwale is close to becomingone as well as all those leaders in the northeast who want to secede fromthe country.

Is the BJP also afflicted by the greed for power?

After Emergency when the Janata Party government was formed, members of theJana Sangh also were part of it. For the first time, they tasted power at the centre.After coming to power, efforts commenced to stay in office -- and there isno limit to how far a person can go in this endeavour. That is how coteries and groupsget formed. From the time of the Janata Party government, this started in the JanaSangh and the danger greatly increased in the BJP during the NDA government.

Did the BJP's basic character change after the formation of the NDAgovernment?

The BJP did not learn any lessons from staying in power. The failure to forma government again at the centre did not reflect well in the behaviour of the partyleadership, as it should have. After the electoral defeat, it would have beenbetter if the party had marshalled all its resources and used themsuccessfully. But that did not happen. The leaders have lost  contact withworkers at the grass root level. The party started functioning as if it was alimited company. During elections, messages are being sent on the telephone,several lakh calls would be made and the people would only hear Atalji's words.The leaders have forgotten that man has not become a part of the machine whichwould start working at the press of a button. People became disillusioned withthe party and started asking what the difference is between the BJP and others.

Why doesn't the BJP take your advice?

The party could have availed of my experience. It could have consulted me onthis. Even out of courtesy, things could have been discussed but nobody did so. (SundarSingh) Bhandariji and Vishnu Kant Shastri too had the same grievance.During the past two-two-and-half years, I asked so many times if I was in theparty or not, if I had a place in the party or had been removed. If anydisciplinary action had been taken then it should be revealed when, why and whohad done it. Nobody speaks to me.

Why is the BJP is such a state?

When coteries are formed and a select few people surround leaders, the situationdeteriorates. People within the party talk about Atalji and Advanijion the sly but no one has the courage to come out in the open and say it.Leaders should ensure that their followers should have the courage to point outtheir mistakes on their face.

What are the lessons learnt by the BJP from the defeat in the Lok Sabhapolls?

There was a chintan baithak in Mumbai to contemplate on thereasons for the electoral defeat. The baithak was held in a seven-starhotel where there were different types of restaurants and various types ofdelicacies were on offer. Ajournalist remarked if this was how the party mourned after defeat, how would itcelebrate after victory. The party's first session was held under tarpaulin inan open maidan with durries spread on the ground. Where has that spiritgone? There were corruption charges against leaders but the party kept quiet.Neither did it say that the charges would be probed nor did it ask the accusedfor clarification. These are ominous signs for any party's health. There islittle hope of improving the future.

To what extent are the party's top leaders to blame?

Those who get maximum accolades when the party succeeds should takeresponsibility when it goes wrong. If the BJP does not survive there will be noopposition in India. All talks of a Third Front is rubbish. There is no hopefrom the Communists.

Advani believes that sticking to ideology is not practical. What is youropinion?

I had also read that he said to come to power a compromise with ideology wasrequired. He needs to be asked if his ideal is to come to power or strengthenhis ideology? Advaniji is the president and if the president says weneed to compromise with our ideology, then they should all go join the Congress and thematter ends there. If you're preparing for "national harakiri" then this is the rightpath. If there is no ideology, on what manifesto will the NDA contest elections?If such is the hunger for power then the ideals that you created -- Dr Mukherjee'sviews, which even Deen Dayal Upadhayay worked for -- all should be immersedin the Ganga at Har ki Pauri!

Are some BJP leaders trying to veer away the party from the Sangh's basicideology?

It seems so. The way two-three leaders reacted sharply to theSarsanghchalak's remarks! Creating such a situation does not befit the partyleadership. They should then say they have nothing to do with the RSS, that they don't believe inthese ideals, that whatever they were saying so far was rubbish and that now true knowledgehas dawned.

Who is responsible for the five-star culture within the BJP?

Those who are promoting it should be asked. In our country, it is not indulgence butsacrifice that is worshipped. Krishna did not become the king of Mathura afterslaying Kansa. After slaying Bali and Ravana, Rama did not rule theirkingdoms. Now if you're not placing Rama and Krishna as ideals before yourself,then Aurangzeb, Shahjahan and Jahangir should be ideals. For power, kill yourfather, imprison him, have him crushed under an elephant's feet. Power is thebiggest thing.

Are the BJP's ideals similar?

The language is such. It would be better if they themselves provide the meaning oftheir language when they say that the party should change its ideology so that it cancome to power. If the party was created for power, then it'd be sheer destiny. I don'tknow how those who created the party -- Deen DayalUpadhyayji and Shyama Prasad Mukherjeeji -- would how feel, or howhappy their souls would be, whereverthey are. But I find this situation very humiliating and painful.