#46/D-125 @Santhosh " ... someone walking into an army chief’s room and offering a bribe is something that i still find surreal."
It is not just 'someone' walking into the army chief's room. It was someone from his own fraternity, and a senior (I believe he was already retired). So the reason for visit could easily have been camouflaged.
Offer/Demand of bribe is rarely done explicitly. It is always subtle to the extent that it can be interpreted in any way.
Whatever, noted. Just a couple of clarifications.
(1) While there are differing opinions on whether or not precise knowledge about our defence preparedness (or lack of it) should be part of the public domain, i believe that such knowledge should (or not) be placed in public domain by the concerned civilian authority – in this case the DM or the PM. It cannot be the case that because the civilian authority is weak (or not forthcoming), this chain of command is violated. It is an unhealthy precedent that has been going on for a while -- the army informing the public through the media that force reduction in Kashmir is harmful while a political consensus was being attempted, their open opposition to the AFSPA in the North-East, and a few other instances. It could be reasonably argued that the army might have a point, but by echoing its grievances in public it encroaches upon and second-guesses what essentially ought to be a political decision. It is something that can only bring harm in the long-run, and needs to be clamped down by the political establishment, no matter how badly we feel let down by them and no matter what their role has been in bringing things to such a sorry state.
(2) ‘It is beyond belief…’. – While most of us aware of all the fixing and looting, someone walking into an army chief’s room and offering a bribe is something that i still find surreal. Imagine the dialogue that would have gone on! No Bollywood scriptwriter can improve on it.
Hilarious post! white, yellow, blue, and pink copies!
While we are at it, could someone confirm if we really have the nuclear "bums" or was that an elaborate hoax too?? I am inclined to believe that they just gathered in the desert, exploded a few diwali crackers and announced that we had the "bum" at last!
Apparently, Pakistanis are full of glee at our sorry plight. They should feel sorry for themselves. Without firing a single shot (we don't have one), we made them buy expensive arms and ammunition. That's so not cool.
@ Santosh Samuel
"What good came out of an army chief getting in touch with the public directly? Should serving army men be giving interviews of this nature to the media? No answers."
Well, you and I are sleeping peacefully with the notion that our borders are being protected by our able and well-equipped armed forces. The truth appears to be that we have tanks with no ammunition, special forces that do not have the right equipment, fighter planes dropping out of the sky etc etc. unfortunately, this is not a situation where "what you dont know, will not hurt you" does not apply. It was absolutely right for this entire sordid episode to come out into public domain so that people can ask where our billion dollar defence spendings are going.
"Why did the general not give the complaint in writing?"
Agree on this. The chief should have given a written complaint - in quadruplicate. White copy to the minister, yellow copy for the minister to stamp acknowledgment that he received the white copy, blue copy for army records and pink copy for his personal confidential files. Procedures must be followed.
"Why did his boss (Antony) not pursue the matter further and insist on a written complaint?"
As mentioned above, procedures must be followed. so antony was waiting for white and yellow copies.
"It is beyond belief that someone could walk into the room of a serving chief of army and offer a bribe, unless having complete confidence that he can get away or unless it is common knowledge (in such circles) that there are prior instances of this having happened. Any which way a scary thought. No answers."
Really?? Beyond belief?? After all the "coalition compulsions" related excuses being dished out, you find it beyond belief? Ministers/ministries are being fixed, coffers are being looted, lands are being encroached.... and you find this beyond belief??
"And finally the leaked letter. Who did it? From all accounts it seems that the army was not responsible for this leak. A confidential letter from the chief to the PM in public domain! A field day for the media and politicians. From calling for the chief’s sacking (narrated as casually as asking someone to buy groceries from the neighbourhood store) to Vaylar Ravi accusing the chief of being frustrated, our MPs have not shown the necessary seriousness that this issue required."
Probably the politicians thought thay could use the same tactics as they did for Anna Hazare and Ramdev. Discredit the chief. Ascribe motives. They should probably call him a sanghi - now that he has visited Mata Vaishno Devi's temple.
"And the PM and the DM allowing matters to drift to such an extent."
The PM has let a lot of this drift for a long time. we are bound to be in drift mode till the next elections, whenever they may be.
"All pointers to a deep malaise that needs to be addressed judiciously, firmly and urgently."
I once again, agree. But looking at this government, it's just wishful thinking. My nephew, who goes to first grade, addresses issues more firmly and urgently - and judiciously too.
The Congress and its lackeys are clearly insinuating that the leak was engineered by VK Singh. However, given the number of times he has been getting under the skin of the Congress, it is more likely that the leak was done by the Congress itself. After all, only post the leak, the allies demanded his resignation. Anyway, instead of speculating, we should focus on the paper that first published the leak. According to my friend, it was first published in DNA by a noted journalist SAIKAT DUTTA. Anyone who knows Saikat Dutta would know the hatchet job he did for Outlook on the VSNL disinvestment scam on the instructions of Kapil Sibal. Now I have no doubt that the leak was engineered by the Congress!
Are you saying that Antony, by virtue of being a Keralite, one of the most virtuous of human species, can express genuine shock as compared to Gen Singh's (feigned) shock since he hails from the "dark middle ages" North? It's another matter that it was Singh who was shocked and Antony merely slapped his head in frustration of a man who had seen it before. But why let facts get in the way of such exquisite arguements.
The last time I checked TN was in South. No?
An unedifying episode that has shown everyone involved in a negative light, and a sad day for all of us. First the age controversy, which despite the SC ruling, i’m not sure who erred. Looks like both the general and the defence ministry were at fault. Incomplete answers.
Then the bribe interview to the Hindu. What was the purpose of such an exercise? What good came out of an army chief getting in touch with the public directly? Should serving army men be giving interviews of this nature to the media? No answers.
Why did the general not give the complaint in writing? Why did his boss (Antony) not pursue the matter further and insist on a written complaint? It is beyond belief that someone could walk into the room of a serving chief of army and offer a bribe, unless having complete confidence that he can get away or unless it is common knowledge (in such circles) that there are prior instances of this having happened. Any which way a scary thought. No answers.
And finally the leaked letter. Who did it? From all accounts it seems that the army was not responsible for this leak. A confidential letter from the chief to the PM in public domain! A field day for the media and politicians. From calling for the chief’s sacking (narrated as casually as asking someone to buy groceries from the neighbourhood store) to Vaylar Ravi accusing the chief of being frustrated, our MPs have not shown the necessary seriousness that this issue required. And the PM and the DM allowing matters to drift to such an extent. Add to it the shrillness of the media, and we have a circus that saddens most of us.
All pointers to a deep malaise that needs to be addressed judiciously, firmly and urgently.
>> Why was it allowed to get into such a bad shape?
Maybe more letter shall be leaked to let us know who allowed it to get in such a bad shape, and who tried to take action towards it, or stall actions against it.
Till then, keep your trap shut.
>>I have given the example of TN Seshan. Incredibly, exactly the same set of arguments were floated against him.
Oh yeah, the election commision suddenly dusts its books when Laloo, Mulayam and other Yadavs start winning and claiming their rightful place in nation's polity (given the total Yadav population in 4 adjoining northern states, it is somewhat puzzling why they have been almost invisible through the first 5-6 decades of purported democracy. Their lack of education and political awareness could be one reason but as you said, I am somewhat cynical).
One personal observation is that I find that Southern Indian states are much more progressive and modernized (aka westernized) and in sync with the world (literacy, healthcare etc in A K Anthony's homestate Kerala) compared to dark middle ages in the north and northeast.
So, instinctually I am inclined to believe that Anthony could possibly be shocked by the brazenness of north Indian corruption; unless he can get some schooling from A Raja and other pros from South.
Fine. Being an idiot is still better than being a congress lackey, especially of Amul baby and co. I feel ashamed when my overseas friends ask me about him. The best they come up for him is that he is cute and has a nice smile (and dimples, of course). Maybe that's what keeps you devoted to the family. Hmm...
That's a very cynical view. The general has his faults, but can anyone disregard his message? It's all very well to say that even though he is decent and honest man, he couldn't have risen through the ranks without knowing that shady deals go on and on. That, in effect, puts the onus of cleansing the system to the lowest Jawan because by the premise of this argument, no one above the rank of a jawan is qualified to pitch stones at others. Real world, mercifully, doesn't operate like that. I have given the example of TN Seshan. Incredibly, exactly the same set of arguments were floated against him.
The general may have his personal score to settle. Maybe he is an anarchist, or a rabble rouser, or a politician in disguise. The fundamental issue still remains: is his message irrelevant? Even his worst detractors have conceded that he has done more than the others to cleanse the system: ref. Sukhna scam, Adarsh scam.
Should we always wait for Jesus before we start cleaning the system?
I like your balanced approach.
>> He has been writing letters to ministry for the past few years.
I don't know about that. He is no doubt an honest man but now he is personally embroiled with the civilian government, so he would be even less effective than he was before.
>> Behind all your cleverly disguised reasoning, you are, I am afraid to say, a congress lackey.
And you are an idiot! My last post in this thread.
let me be the self-appointed referee of this tit-for-tat.
(1) There are no angels in this or any of the dozens of corruption scams. People in South Asia have lived with it almost forever (possibly even before modern nation states and governments were invented). They would only like it to be contained to tolerable levels.
(2) When V. P. Singh uncovered skeletons in every cupboard he opened, there wasn't much enthusiasm for him; primarily because of his solid secular and pro-reservation stance. Instead, Narsimha Rao and company went on with-hunting using fake St. Kitts accounts.
(3) General reports, Defense Minister suggests formal complaint, General demurs. Kinda does take the edge off the matter.
(4) Having risen through the ranks, General couldn't have discovered the corruption in procurement overnight (right before his retirement). From HDW submarines to Bofors Guns, this Tatra thing kinda pales in comparison.
(5) Everyone likes to politely mention how PM ManMohan Singh himself or MoD A K Anthony himself or General himself is a man of integrity. Average Indian knows fully well, it is impossible to survive (let alone rise to any position of significance anywhere) in India without being at least somewhat tolerant to corruption.
So, yes General has made his trip to Vaishno Devi and decided he is gonna go out with a Bang and some fireworks. If Anthony is going to be stickler about his DoB then he is going to be thorn in his side until it hurts.
Nothing more, nothing less.
The tank fleet didn't become depleted of ammunition in the last two months. I remember, during the Kargil war, we went on an emergency buying spree of bofors shells. It intrigued me at that time as to how it's possible to have a gun and not have the bullets. But I was very young and I thought maybe there was some complicated thing behind it. I now know the answer.
Thank you Gen. Singh. The nation is proud of you. Better to have one honest lion, even if a loose cannon, than have a thousand coward Mir Jaffars.
I gave you such epithets after a long period of following your arguments. Behind all your cleverly disguised reasoning, you are, I am afraid to say, a congress lackey. In your eyes, the congress can do no harm. In anyone criticizes the congress, he/she is either a sanghi or a depraved character. I saw your dishonest intellectual jugglery when it came to lokpal.
this general is next in line to Singh's successor and is due on 2014 not in June 2012 . my apologies for the incorrect information .. got one singh confused with the other .
He has been writing letters to ministry for the past few years. This is not the first time he has done that. He has only 2 months left in the service. Having failed to move the dunderheads in the ministry, what course he has left? Better to do something than to keep quiet and walk into the sunset. As for the age row, do you honestly think that one guy can go to such lengths to burn all the boats on just that issue? Does it invalidate his criticisms?
We'd prefer to have more such honorable men in service. I remember, in his time, Sheshan faced the same sort of criticisms. Now, we don't get tired of giving him accolades.
>> People like you who always loudly claim to have interests of the nation at heart are liars of the worst stripe.
You truly are an idiot, blinded by your hate. You try to engage me in a conversation and then show me your true gutter origin.
>> the Chief has referred a case against another general to the CBI.
After the Defence Minister asked him to take action! "Acknowledging General Singh had complained against Lt-Gen Suhag some months ago, the minister said, "I immediately told him to take action if there was any specific complaint. But the Army headquarters on March 22 sent a proposal to promote him (Lt-Gen Suhag) as an Army commander
(of one of the six regional commands). In fact, the file has now come to me after the defence secretary cleared it.""
>> I hope you haven't missed the latest news that the Chief has referred a case against another general to the CBI.
Not just any General - the one who is next in line - it seems the General brought up the issue with Action-king Antony and he as usual was shocked for two minutes and did not do anything , except to nominate him as Singh's successor 3 month's before the current Cheif's retirement date
Now the secular crowd wont care that the General is referring this to a body under civilian control and will act as their political masters want , but would still blame the General is acting in frustration that he didnt get his 1 year extension worth 5 -10 lakhs , so he can keep refusing 14 crore bribe offers .
I hope you haven't missed the latest news that the Chief has referred a case against another general to the CBI. Well, now he has done it, taken an action. I hope you applaud his move.
People like you who always loudly claim to have interests of the nation at heart are liars of the worst stripe. You cannot see beyond the interests of a party that is knee deep in corruption and that too only because that party is supposedly secular. In that, you are no different from the laloos and rajas. That SOB who looted the state exchequer has the temerity to cast aspersions on the integrity of a honest general. Shame on you and your ilk.
>> In our country, a general goes to public only when he has no choice left.
Did he have to wait until just before his retirement? Did he have to wait until our tank fleet was devoid of critical ammunition to defeat enemy tanks, and until our air defence was 97% obsolete? Did he have to wait until he lost his age battle?
I think you have been reading too many Pakistani newspapers. Generals there are in the limelight all the time. In our country, a general goes to public only when he has no choice left. General Singh is a brave soldier and we should be indebted to him for his courage.
You are also mistaken in your belief that the General should have taken care of the pitiable state of our preparedness. Once again, I must remind you that in contrast to Pakistan, where a general has to juggle hundreds of tasks: toppling the elected govt., secure land deals, manage a cereal factory, manage a bank, oversee training of bombers to expand their strategic objectives, manage foreign relations, our generals are in a more classical mould. They are soldiers, first and foremost. Their task is not procurement of ammunition. For that the goofy idiots in the ministry of defence are responsible. Please understand this simple sequence of steps before rattling off your nonsense.
Also, as you always bring comparisons with the system in the US, it must not have escaped your rapidly shrinking attention that generals in the US periodically give full length interviews to the mass media without any visible impugn on their integrity or their professionalism. So why this kolaveri di?
In fact, it's a credit to the Army that it nutures people like Gen Singh, who in any other place would have been lauded for his plain speak and courage instead of the shameful treatment he has received from the dyed-in-wool sycophants like you who cannot see beyond the chappals of Rahul baba and his mummyji.
>> It is a classic case of shooting a messenger.
Nationally vital messages should not be the pre-retirement swan songs sung after loss of face in the SC.
>> It is mind boggling to see that the defence ammunition is in such a bad shape.
Why was it allowed to get into such a bad shape? Does the Chief of the Army have nothing to do with the quality of defence ammunitions?
>> Deobandy folks who also like to compete for headlines, this time they have cross over to insanity.
Read a Joke last week.
In India, Government decides on age of a General. In Pakistan, General decides on the age of the Government.
“Seems the general wants to see his name in the headlines everyday until he retires or is fired!”
Any comment on Deobandy folks who also like to compete for headlines, this time they have cross over to insanity. Read the link, and judge for yourself. I have a feeling that you probably won’t comment on this one…
Talaq Said in Drunken State Over Phone Valid: Deoband
>> It is mind boggling to see that the defence ammunition is in such a bad shape when India is one of the largest imports of arms.
India is THE largest importer of arms - not "one of the"
"Seems the general wants to see his name in the headlines everyday until he retires or is fired!"
It is a classic case of shooting a messenger. But nothing else is expected from a congress lacky.
It is mind boggling to see that the defence ammunition is in such a bad shape when India is one of the largest imports of arms. Speaks volume about the corruption.
>> He has embarrassed the Government on two occasions which were surely avoidable.
So it the altar boy's fault now that he has embarrassed the church by complaining to the archbishoop that the pastor is sodomizing him ? strange ways how secular mnd works .
It is utter stupidity to compare what General Singh has done with military coups happened in neighbouring countries. The General has followed proper Chain of Commands (COC) keeping in mind full well that in a democracy the civilians leaders are the ultimate decision makers. It is naive to believe that when that fails, the military officers should keep mum at the detriment of our country's welfare.
The issue involving Army Chief Gen. V. K. Singh appears extraordinary and should taken with serious concern. He has embarrassed the Government on two occasions which were surely avoidable.
The civilian control of the unformed services is the essense of democracy. In the neighbourshood of India, demomcracy has repeatedly been crushed under the military boots, making a mockery of the system itself. Therefore, the Chief of Indian Army deserves to be shown the doors along with a dingified rebuke. Several prominent and influential quarters have espoused the cause of Gen Singh, which also should be brashed aside with disdain it merits. The country can ill afford to succumb to the logic and arguments of the Army Chief for the mischief he proposed to promote.
>> Seems the general wants to see his name in the headlines everyday until he retires or is fired!
Now I know why PM Singh doesnt open his mouth even when everything is on fire all around him - he just doesnt want to see his name in the headlines ..
Why not have Shivanand Tiwari as defence chief?
He has the experience of working with Neetish, then Laloo and again with Neetish.
And we could have A Raja as the PM, and Laloo as President.
A.K.Antony belongs to the innermost circle of Sonia Gandhi's cotery,where only Muslims and Christians are allowed.So,he can never be found fault with.So,Congress party is frantically trying to throw the muck on V.K.Singh and protect A.K.Antony lest the scandal should lead to Sonia Gandhi's doorsteps.Remember Rajiv Gandhi was called Mr Clean,till his role in Bofors scandal got exposed
In the eyes of our parliamentarians who are so united in their sanctimonious concern about discipline, confidentiality etc. corruption and poor state of defence services are not particularly important.
They all have their hands in the till.
[RELATED WIRES: US Military, Pak Army Discuss Security Issues] ... what security issues? India? we dont even have shells to fire! dont waste your time guys, go have fun in California or somewhere nice :-)
@Saxena, 'V K Leaks" - LOL
So we have our own ViKky Leaks.
It is becoming fashionable to wave top secret documents on TV to make a point. Until such time as the Official Secrets Act is rescinded and we evolve sufficiently as a direct democracy for the governance of this country to be conducted in the open from the Boat Club lawns, perhaps all of us should respect government confidentiality.
This Antony chap should attend primary school to learn the English language.
Or, he should stick to speaking in Malayalam assuming his grasp of Malayalam is not equally atrocious.
Seems the general wants to see his name in the headlines everyday until he retires or is fired!
Outlook India : Leakage of Letter to PM High Treason: Gen Singh
PTI | New Delhi | Mar 29, 2012
"V K Leaks" are good for the country. I salute the General for exposing the truth. My hunch is that the Army Chief's letter to PM, must have been leaked deliberately by "someone" to embarrass the Army Chief. But such misconducts are bound to boomerang on the culprits.
The speed and regularity with which the General is throwing the bombshells day after day, may compel the GOI to force Gen V K Singh to proceed on leave preparatory to retirement. This will aggravate the situation irrevocably. Worse, sacking the General would be fraught with dangerous implications within the Armed Forces. The Military Intelligence ,IB and the RAW must stay alert about the breaking of an unsavoury controversy within the Armed Forces ,just, in case, an immature decision is taken by the political executive in collusion with incompetent Defence bureaucracy..
The Congress spokespersons must be advised to keep their mouths shut. Similar advisories must be issued by other political parties to their leaders. Let us not politicise the matter beyond the point of no return.
Country's security and defence preparedness are more important than any thing else. These can't be compromised with corruption at any cost.
A K SAXENA (A retired civil servant)
Antony, MMS, and Sonia are out to destroy the nation
What is so difficult about it? Work backwards, catch the media and get at the truth. Unless you feel you need to hold Katju in preventive detention till you get the info from media.
>> Gen V K Singh today said that the leak of his letter to the Prime Minister presenting a grim picture of the force's defence preparedness should be treated as "high treason" and the source of leakage dealt with "ruthlessly."
Don't tell it to jehadi scoundrels who are already blaming you for the leak by labeling you a publicity hound.