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Suddenly there's the anxious desire of European seminarians to know how we co-exist, so they too might learn


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Digression
1
Feb 11, 2013
Jogged Memory

Mani Shankar Aiyar’s Venice Diary (Jan 28) reminded me of a visit to the Museum of Islamic Art in Doha, where a copy of the Ramayan written in Arabic (or was it Persian?) was on display.

Sushil Prasad, on e-mail
Order by HAVE YOUR SAY
1/D-45
Jan 19, 2013
03:09 PM

This dyed in the wool secularists does not want to even mention the word Hindu anywhere,lest he be called communal.Mani Shankar Iyer is surely a shallow fellow to talk of non-existent things like Prophet through Bhakti movement.Is there a single Muslim who respects,a bhakti movement saint like Sant Kabir?The stupidest thing about his presentation is that he wants to paper over one of the greatest massacres in human history that was committed by Muslims when millions of Hindus were killed to get their Pakistan.This Mani Shankar Iyer might have passed his IFS,but surely he has no depth in writing on subjects like this which only an Arun Shourie can do with his vast research approach. His presentation is sheer propaganda as an academic has rightly said.He must be ashamed not to give credit to Hindus anywhere in his presentation.

S.S.Nagaraj
Bangalore, India
2/D-79
Jan 19, 2013
07:13 PM

 Before retirement he was in the Indian Falana  service and now he is is Indian Fools Service. Mani Bakwas Iyer

gajanan
Sydney, Australia
3/D-80
Jan 19, 2013
07:20 PM

 The Joke is on Mani Shankar Aiyar


http://www.firstpost.com/india/india-pakistan-why-the-joke-is-on-mani-shankar-aiyar-590270.html

gajanan
Sydney, Australia
4/D-118
Jan 19, 2013
11:50 PM

The title of this piece should have been Mani's diary.

Rajeev
Delhi, India
5/D-19
Jan 20, 2013
03:41 AM

> "the anxious desire of European seminarians to know how we cope"

They could cope when they were the colonial masters in Asia and Africa, but they can't cope as equal co-citizens in their home countries!

Anwaar
Dallas, United States
6/D-71
Jan 20, 2013
12:43 PM

Don't cope. Send them back and save your land and people.

A. Alagappan
Chennai, India
7/D-93
Jan 20, 2013
02:59 PM

 Anwaar >> They could cope when they were the colonial masters in Asia and Africa, but they can't cope as equal co-citizens in their home countries!

leave aside coping, when was the last time Hindoos, or Sikhs were treated as equal co-citizens in the Islamic Republic of pakistan and bangladesh?? Can you enlighten us on that?

Ramki
Delhi, India
8/D-94
Jan 20, 2013
03:01 PM

 Gajanan >>  The Joke is on Mani Shankar Aiyar

MS Aiyar is a old, tiring paid spokesperson of the Nehru-Indira-Rajiv-Sonia-Rahul cult . He is just another spokesperson like countless others like say Digvijay Singh , but the problem is this guy is such a pampered , perverted feudal peddler that he has not even a fraction of the sense of humour that the likes of Shri Digvijay Singh possess. That explains why even professional left liberals of India find this man, MS Aiyer a professional bore. If you are a sleep deprived person needing therapy, get time to read to his words or hear his speeches. it can have an amazing effect.

Ramki
Delhi, India
9/D-134
Jan 20, 2013
07:49 PM

 This Mani chap is just too full of himself.

His arrogance coexists seemlessly with slavery of the dynasty.

Pradip Singh
STAFFORD, United Kingdom
10/D-135
Jan 20, 2013
07:50 PM

Dear Sir,

Now the Europeans are and will continue getting a taste of living with Islam!

There will be friction, undoubtedly - but then they will gradually begin to admire the Indian State for its diversity.

Navin Malhotra
New Delhi, India
11/D-137
Jan 20, 2013
07:55 PM

 I wrote this elsewher, but it is more appropriate here.

What Mani Shankar Aiyar says is of no interest to anyone except himself. Some people admire themselves in a mirror. Aiyar probably records his own bombast so he can listen to it over and over again.

Bonita
Chennai, India
12/D-2
Jan 21, 2013
12:06 AM

 Hi Mani we all miss you.Do you know you have quite a following.You must use the internet more to get us all and act in s constructive way.

Do not bother about these RSS diehards who are very strong in the west and are radicalizing  all Indian Hindus who land on the shore.Keep up your good work and we are behind you.

Nasar Ahmed
Karikkudi, India
13/D-6
Jan 21, 2013
01:12 AM

Usually Mr Aiyar is full of himself. This was quite a sober article from him compared to his usual colonial minded fooling ramblings. Last time when he wrote something about America, he was was complaining that he was not considered as a 'social superior' and even a socially inferior train guard talked to him looking into his eye.

I hope he got a good treatment in Italy.  Oh Italy...he sure must have got a royal treatment!!

Emperor
NY, United States
14/D-23
Jan 21, 2013
06:24 AM

Ramki,

>> when was the last time Hindoos, or Sikhs were treated as equal co-citizens in the Islamic Republic of pakistan and Bangladesh.

I know, but is this discussion an occasion for you to go a . .-licking the white sahibs? Is every discussion going to be used by you for your anti-Muslim hate peddling?

Anwaar
Dallas, United States
15/D-61
Jan 21, 2013
10:37 AM

Mani is schizophrenic. On one hand, his high IQ and high caste entitles him to be arrogant, and on the other, he has to lick arse of the Gandhi family whose collective IQ is less than his. This would addle anybody’s brain. It has certainly done his. I pity him.

Kiran Bagachi
mumbai, India
16/D-99
Jan 21, 2013
02:49 PM

@ Kiran Bagachi mumbai, India 15/D-61
Mani is schizophrenic. On one hand, his high IQ and high caste entitles him to be arrogant, and on the other, he has to lick arse of the Gandhi family whose collective IQ is less than his. This would addle anybody’s brain. It has certainly done his. I pity him.

This amazes me also.
A person of very high IQ indeed, and good speaker when he is not shouting.
I just can't get it, what happens to him when it comes to dynasty.

Just like VM, he too is a year younger to my father. I am bringing that because, otherwise absolutely gentle father of mine, he get all worked up if anything against Nehru is told in front of him.

So I think it is something to do with the kids growing in that 50s and 60s era. I read somewhat similar expression from Narayan Murthy.

Unlike my father, who has very limited knowledge and influence span, I don't get it, why people with vast exposure and experience, like ManiSA do that?
No-no, I am not talking about being Congressee or opposing right-wing. I am talking about dynasty worship.

Perhaps something to do with lack of few types of intelligence, as suggested in Vedic knowledge system.
-> Paariveshik (Environmental Intelligence)
-> Baudhik (Cognitive Intelligence)
-> Bhavatmak (Emotional Intelligence)
-> Naitik (Moral Intelligence)
-> Samajik (Social Intelligence)
-> Aadhyatmik (Spiritual Intelligence)

Where Mani possess enormous "Cognitive Intelligence"; some other areas seems to be missing. :D

Santosh Gairola
Hsinchu, Taiwan
17/D-40
Jan 22, 2013
05:37 AM

 Mr Randy Macdonald , thanks for the statistics. Yes , you are right . here it is in France it is 9.52% and Germany it is 4.87%. This Indian politician is from Congress Party, These guys always jack up figures of everything.  When they ask for 15-16 % money  when they are in govt for approval of projects, it means they aks straight 6% to 11 to 12 % as bribe. This is the way these Congi guys work.  Corruption is in the subconcious  of a Congi person that even when he is calculating population numbers he or she goes back to his corruption numbers embedded in his or her conciousness. This fellow who has written this article , is Foreign  (Fools a better word) service person, You can imagine others from his party. 

gajanan
Sydney, Australia
18/D-43
Jan 22, 2013
06:24 AM

//Hence, the anxious desire of European seminarians to know how we cope//
With great difficulty!!
 

Just Joe King
Gotham, India
19/D-44
Jan 22, 2013
06:27 AM

If there are europeans reading this, let me tell you that we cope by digging our head into the sand when confronted by muslim extremists and allow them a free uninterrupted run for deacdes, like Zakir naik while banning all non muslims that attempt similiar expression of opinion.
We also provide haj subsidies, bribe the islamic elite, pander to jihadists, allow moth balled 1400 year old sharia law in the case of civil law through the All India Muslim Personal Law Board and the All India Shia Muslim Personal Law Board while Hindus and christians are subject to modern law.
We do much much more.
Salute!!

Just Joe King
Gotham, India
20/D-45
Jan 22, 2013
06:43 AM

IN the mullah placating brigade's world, the Bhakti movement is rather important. Thsi is seen as the proof that indian muslims and hindus lived peacefully together in south asian utopia.
The truth is there is no 1 islam, since islam is not monolithic. Sadly, it is becoming more and more so now in India and that is worrying.
The central asian warlords and barbarians don't represent any beauty or intellectual sophistication. They represent a primitive agenda even by medieval standards and come across as neanderthals living with anatomically modern humans. Destroying universities of higher learning, the buddhist priesthood, the hindu temples, imposing large taxes o the infidel and constructing lavish self indulgent pathetic tombs while ill treating fellow muslims of ethnic indian descent is what the central asian cultural descent warlords in medieval India stand for.
In the Mullah placating world that Maulana Mani comes from he is compelled to be a negationist denying the record of central asian islam in India.
Mughals fought with hindu rajputs, they also fought with muslim rajputs. Native culture following muslims were nto having a fun time in disneyland either. they suffered just like our infidel ancestors. Maulana Mani is right up there with the holocaust denying rednecks in America when it comes to medieval India. Mughal emperors chronicled themselves quite well and anyone that denies the ytremendous battering that our continuing, evolving civilisation took is a pathetic miserable puke. We must learn from history.
So if any europeans are reading this, this is how we deal with islam. We stand up for anything and everything islamic including all the violence that it has perpetrated on the world & our part of the world. Apparently centuries of slavery and lakhs of women being taken as se slaves in harems and being sold around central and south asia, 'Enriched' us.
Or perhaps it was the other way around? Our arts, sciences, philosophy, value systems enriched islam?? Maybe?? Maybe this is why you have muslims singing and dancing and largely following a sufi lifestyle in India indirectly or directly?? This is changing now. The Indian islam that was created in india is being replaces with the arabised wahabi nutter bulldust and it is happening quite fast in south, south west & eastern India. Meanwhile Maulana Mani recites his Kalma while keeping his blinkers firmly on- La ilaha illela Communism, Marx ur-rasul Communism!!

Just Joe King
Gotham, India
21/D-57
Jan 22, 2013
07:26 AM

Just Joe King,

>> we cope by digging our head into the sand when confronted by muslim extremists.

Shouldn't that be, "we cope by digging our head into the sand when confronted by muslim and hindu extremists"?

Anwaar
Dallas, United States
22/D-59
Jan 22, 2013
07:32 AM

Just Joe King,

>> Destroying universities of higher learning, the buddhist priesthood, the hindu temples, imposing large taxes....

No mention of course of Hindu destruction of Buddhism! Granted that Muslim rulers played havoc, but your dramatization ignores the fact that even after 700 years of Muslim rule,  Hindu religion, Hindu culture and Hindu populace are basically in tact.

Anwaar
Dallas, United States
23/D-74
Jan 22, 2013
09:03 AM

>>No mention of course of Hindu destruction of Buddhism!

There was no Hindu destruction of Buddhism. Please don't spread Paki website based canards.

RSM
Delhi, India
24/D-75
Jan 22, 2013
09:22 AM

RSM,

>> There was no Hindu destruction of Buddhism. Please don't spread Paki website based canards.

"According to the historian S. R. Goyal, the decline of Buddhism in India is the result of the hostility of the Hindu priestly caste of Brahmans. The Hindu Saivite ruler Shashanka of Gauda (590–626) destroyed the Buddhist images and Bo Tree, under which Siddhartha Gautama is said to have achieved enlightenment. Pusyamitra Sunga (185 BC to 151 BC) was hostile to Buddhism, he burned Sutras, Buddhists shrines and massacred monks.[13] With the surge of Hindu philosophers like Adi Shankara, along with Madhvacharya and Ramanuja, three leaders in the revival of Hindu philosophy, Buddhism started to fade out rapidly from the landscape of India.....Much of what we know about the state of Buddhism in the second half of the first millennium CE comes from the 7th century Chinese pilgrim Xuanzang, who traveled widely and documented his journey.....During the reign of the Chalukya dynasty, Xuanzang reported that numerous Buddhist stupas in regions previously ruled by the Buddhist sympathetic Andhras and Pallavas were "ruined and deserted". These regions came under the control of the Vaishnavite Eastern Chalukyas, who were not favorable to Buddhism and did not support the religion.[52] Xuanzang's report also mentions that in the 7th Century, Shashanka of the Kingdom of Gouda (Bengal) was expanding his influence in the region in the aftermath of the fall of the Gupta Empire. He is blamed by Xuanzhang and other Buddhist sources for the murder of Rajyavardhana, a Buddhist king of Thanesar." (Wikipedia)

Anwaar
Dallas, United States
25/D-82
Jan 22, 2013
10:17 AM

Ah, back to those stories of Bodhi tree destruction, Harsha, Shashankha which have been refuted so many times on this forum itself.

But the following is one of the examples of how jihadi fabricators work:

"During the reign of the Chalukya dynasty, Xuanzang reported that numerous Buddhist stupas in regions previously ruled by the Buddhist sympathetic Andhras and Pallavas were "ruined and deserted"."

But no evidence of being 'ruined and deserted' because of Hindus!

"These regions came under the control of the Vaishnavite Eastern Chalukyas, who were not favorable to Buddhism and did not support the religion."

Not supporting a religion does not amount to destruction of the religion. But this is a standard practice of creating narratives of "Hindu destruction of Buddhism"

It does not occur to these thick heads that hostility does not mean violence and destruction. There were hostilities between every sect in India, even between Shaivites and Vaishnavites. The writings about each other used to be extremely polemical. Buddhists were not benevolent to Hindus either.But only jihadis will construe this as destruction.

RSM
Delhi, India
26/D-112
Jan 22, 2013
12:24 PM

>> According to the historian S. R. Goyal

Jehadis quoting Goyal!

Guess Mayans were right, albeit a bit late.

Do you plan to post any other fake links on the topic as you once had earlier?

Whats InAName
San Francisco, United States
27/D-115
Jan 22, 2013
12:44 PM

>> According to the historian S. R. Goyal

BTW, can you post the wikipedia link where Goyal makes these claims. I checked the Wiki page regarding history of Buddhism in India

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Buddhism_in_India

It has no reference to Goyal. In fact, regarding the effect of Hinduism on its decline, it says

It has been asserted, simplistically and without much historical evidence, that Hinduism became a more "intelligible and satisfying road to faith for many ordinary worshippers" than it had been because it now included not only an appeal to a personal god, but had also seen the development of an emotional facet with the composition of devotional hymns.[40]

The period between the 400 CE and 1000 CE saw gains by Brahmanism and local cults at the expense of Buddhism

By contrast, it says the following regarding Islamic invasions

The Muslim conquest of the Indian subcontinent was the first great iconoclastic invasion into South Asia.[41] The resulting occasional and sporadic destruction of temples did not affect Hinduism, but for Buddhism the destruction of the stupas has been attributed with a rapid and almost total disappearance from North India.[42] Additionally, more academic forms of Indian Buddhism relied on patronage by kings and merchants and this change in rulership coupled with the economic integration with the Islamic world and thus the growing domination of long-distance trade by the Muslim merchant class eroded these sources of patronage resulting in an absorption into either Hinduism or Islam

If anything, it blames the Islamic invasion for the decline of Buddhism in India, suggesting that while Hindu rulers patronised it, Islamic rulers vandalised it.

On what basis do you claim

No mention of course of Hindu destruction of Buddhism

Any Hindu role in its destruction, if at all, was miniscule compared to the Islamic role. But of course, a Paki loving anti-national jehadi like you is not expected to have the honesty to say so.

Whats InAName
San Francisco, United States
28/D-120
Jan 22, 2013
01:34 PM

RSM,

Can you read English? Did you read these sentences in the Wikipedia article?

"The Hindu Saivite ruler Shashanka of Gauda (590–626) destroyed the Buddhist images and Bo Tree, under which Siddhartha Gautama is said to have achieved enlightenment".

" Pusyamitra Sunga (185 BC to 151 BC) was hostile to Buddhism, he burned Sutras, Buddhists shrines and massacred monks."

"Xuanzang's report also mentions that in the 7th Century, Shashanka of the Kingdom of Gouda (Bengal) was expanding his influence in the region in the aftermath of the fall of the Gupta Empire. He is blamed by Xuanzhang and other Buddhist sources for the murder of Rajyavardhana, a Buddhist king of Thanesar."

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decline_of_Buddhism_in_India

Although you guys do not like Vinay Lal, his article is very informative. He says, "The “sword of Islam” thesis remains controversial, at best, and many reputable historians are inclined to dismiss it outright. Islam was, moreover, a late entrant into India, and Buddhism was showing unmistakable signs of its decline long before Islam became established in the Gangetic plains, central India, and the northern end of present-day Andhra and Karnataka."

He adds, "Nearly 20 years ago the historian S. R. Goyal wrote that "according to
many scholars hostility of the Brahmanas was one of the major causes of the decline of Buddhism in India." The Saivite king, Shashanka, invariably appears in such histories as a ferocious oppressor of the Buddhists, though the single original source for all subsequent narratives about Shashanka’s ruinous conduct towards Buddhists remains Hsuan Tsang. Shashanka is reported to have destroyed the Bodhi tree and ordered the destruction of Buddhist images. Hindu nationalists appear to think that many Muslim monuments were once Hindu temples, but partisans of Buddhism are inclined to the view that Hindu temples were often built on the site of Buddhist shrines."

cms.outlookindia.comdocs.google.com/viewer

Anwaar
Dallas, United States
29/D-143
Jan 22, 2013
03:52 PM

Mani is easily our most erudite politician, but unfortunately lacks the gravitas of a 70+ year old. He still thinks at stake are the brownie points of the debating societies of Oxford/Cambridge/St Stephens.

It is not the "big problems" we currently have that refutes Composite Culture. It is the Pakistan movement culminating in the creation of Pakistan that long ago did it. How can you talk about "Composite culture" as if the Partition never happened?

Prashanth
Bangalore, India
30/D-146
Jan 22, 2013
04:02 PM

>>Can you read English? Did you read these sentences in the Wikipedia article?

Jihadis will never sleep until they successfully peddle their lies. And their idea establishing a point is just copy pasting discredited arguments repeatedly.

Only idiots will believe Hsuen Tsang’s hearsay story that Shashanka cut the Bodhi tree. In fact a large tree was in existence when Tsang visited the place. According to him, a replanted sapling grew into a full size tree after the it was cut just few years prior to his arrival. The only source of the persecutions of Buddhists by Shashanka is in stories of Hsuen Tsang which itself has been shown to be inconsistent and fictitious. Yet the morons, commies and jihadis who periodically dismiss Ibn Batuta’s accounts lap up Tsang's mythical stories as gospel since it helps to prove Hinduism destroyed Buddhism!

About Pushyamitra Sungha, the source of commie canard is Ashokavadana and Divyavadana, both written about 300 years after Pushyamitra’s so called acts. According to these accounts, Pushyamitra is said to have offered money for heads of Buddhist monks. What the commies suppress is that some powerful arahant managed to create many heads through magic and gave them to people to collect the money promised. So the commies and jihadis rely on this fiction. Moreover both Ashokavadana and Divyavadana despite being Buddhist supporting documents show Ashoka in much poorer light than Pushyamitra. In reality, Pushyamitra patronized Buddhist monasteries and universities during his reign.

But the commies, jihadis and Paki lovers have an agenda here. Very soon, in another thread, they will repeat the same lies of Hinduism destroying Buddhism!
 

RSM
Delhi, India
31/D-150
Jan 22, 2013
04:34 PM

>>Jehadis quoting Goyal!

This is not Sitaram Goel. The day jihadis quote Goel, pigs will fly.

RSM
Delhi, India
32/D-194
Jan 22, 2013
08:37 PM

 "Nearly 20 years ago the historian S. R. Goyal wrote that "according to
many scholars hostility of the Brahmanas was one of the major causes of the decline of Buddhism in India."

I checked the page and no reference was posted for SR Goel. I did however check his book and see what he had to say on the subject. It comes in Appendix of Hindu Temples Vol 2. Here is what he says

"As regards her statement that Buddhism eventually fled the country and Jainism was effectively confined to few pockets as a result of Hindu persecution in pre-Islamic days, one simply feels flabbergasted in the face of such colossal ignorance on the part of a professor of history. As regards Buddhism, we are quoting what Dr. B.R. Ambedkar has to say on the subject. After observing that the Persian word but meaning idol is derived from Buddha, He writes: Thus the origin of the word indicates that in the Muslim mind idol worship had come to be identified with the religion of Buddha. To the Muslims they were one and the same thing. The mission to break idols thus became the mission to destroy Buddhism. Islam destroyed Buddhism not only in India but wherever it went. Bactria, Parthia, Afghanistan, Gandhara and Chinese Turkestan in all these countries Islam destroyed Buddhism. More precisely: The Muslim invaders sacked the Buddhist universities of Nalanda [etc.] They razed to the ground Buddhist monasteries with which the country was studded. The monks fled away in thousands A very large number were killed outright by the Muslim commanders.8 D.D. Kosambi, a historian of her own Marxist school, confirms that Nalanda was sacked by a handful of Muslim raiders under Mohammed bin Bakhtyar Khalji about AD 1200 and that the tremendous complex at Sarnath which had grown up on the site of the first Buddhist sermon was wrecked beyond recovery, thus ending a continuous tradition of refuge and meeting-place for ascetics which went back to the centuries before Buddha."

And he concludes 

"1) Buddhism was flourishing all over the country when the Islamic invaders arrived on the scene; 2) both Buddhism and Jainism were being patronised by kings whom the Marxist lable as Hindus; 3) Buddhist monks fled to Nepal and Tibet only after thousands of them were massacred, and their monasteries destroyed by the Islamic marauders; 4) Buddhism continued to flourish all over Andhra Pradesh, Maharashtra, and Karnataka till attacked by the armies of Islam in the fourteenth century; 5) Buddhism did not survive the Islamic assault because, unlike Brahmanism and Jainism, it was centred round monasteries and monks; 6) Jainism has continued to flourish till today all over north India, Karnataka, Maharashtra and Gujarat as it did in the pre-Islamic period, in spite of prolonged Islamic persecution; and 7) there is evidence of a large number of Jain temples being destroyed in the Muslim invasions of southern Bihar and Jharkhand as well as of western and northern Bengal, during the thirteenth and subsequent centuries."

Rakhal
Philadelphia, United States
33/D-195
Jan 22, 2013
08:38 PM

 Wikipedia is pure garbage. Anyone can edit any entries they want. To cite it as a proof to show what Goel was thinking, when his own words are available online shows a sloppy research and blatant disregard for truth.

From Anwaar, this is no surprise. He can scarcely read something in the original.

Rakhal
Philadelphia, United States
34/D-207
Jan 22, 2013
09:11 PM

Anwaar surely has a great research bent. He prefers J Sharma's words over to what Vivekananda said. And he prefers an entry in Wiki to quote Sita Ram Goel when Sita Ram Goel's own words are available online and which completely contradicts what is said in wiki.

What a great regard for truth!!!!!!!!!!!!

Rakhal
Philadelphia, United States
35/D-232
Jan 22, 2013
11:22 PM

Aiyar Saheb, I have heard you several times ... you are an eloquent speaker, but a very verbose and garrulous one at that as well as yacking like an abnoxious idiot at times ... Ok you are learned enough to realise "India’s synthesis of her extant faiths with the message of the Prophet (sufisim if I may say more acceptable), particularly through the Bhakti movement" and "contrast this to the nil impact on Christendom of the comparable period of 680 years of Muslim rule in Andalusia"

Now now, sir, surely you can not be more hypocritical. Dont you think it was crusaders who what ever the reason saved European civilisation and its contribution to the humanity. If not, Basilica di San Marco would have been converted into mosque, Piazza di San Marco into a Naaz congregation, leaning towers of Pisa in to a minaret etc. etc.

And what saved India's civilisation ?? I think you know but won't have the courage to admit it, like when you feigned the earphone failure when last night the anchor on AajTak put it to you "where is the proof" on your 1 lakh percent supyouport for home minister Shinde claim on RSS/BJP running "Hindu Terrorist camps".

I put it to you, Mani, you are a fake and a diabolical liar ...

The Contrarian
London, United Kingdom
36/D-233
Jan 22, 2013
11:27 PM

correction: Piazza di San Marco into a NAMAAZ congregation

The Contrarian
London, United Kingdom
37/D-23
Jan 23, 2013
03:01 AM

RSM,

>> Jihadis will never sleep until they successfully peddle their lies.....The day jihadis quote Goel, pigs will fly.

If you had an argument, you would not need such low-bred hate polemics!

Anwaar
Dallas, United States
38/D-24
Jan 23, 2013
03:09 AM

 Simple! The europeans to manage multiculture if there is one,should start abusing their majority and brand them as terrorist,then everybody will be happy till the minorities take over europe and rule them without the crusades

harish naik
bangalore, India
39/D-25
Jan 23, 2013
03:13 AM

Rakhal,

>> Wikipedia is pure garbage.

It is garbage when the information is not to our liking. It is good when it agrees with us. And regarding the S.R.Goyal quote, google "Buddhism’s Disappearance from India - Vinay Lal".

 

Anwaar
Dallas, United States
40/D-30
Jan 23, 2013
03:39 AM

 India copes by electing seculars who know how to make an offer to extremists and terrorists even they are finding it hard to react ..

This is the offer they put on the table to the seculars -

1. You keep yours , we will share ours  -

2. you want your own country , take it. You want to share our country ?ofcourse you have the first claim to our resources 

3. you want to stay here but cant follow our laws , no problem - you can have your own laws , we will overturn even supreme court rulings to keep you happy.

4. you want your own schools and dont want to integrate ? you have it .. we will give you special status and give subsidy .   

5. you want to go to pilgrimage ? we will subsidize and take you there .. you dont like hindus performing  pilgrimage which are recently islamized ? no problem we will restrict access and withhold facilities - hopefully all those that want to do so will die in a few decades   - couple of hundred a year  

6. We will grant you land and money to run your religious organizations and will take over temple lands to give to the landless poor .  

7.  we will ensure you dont get bad press , if one of you is caught red handed threatening to kill a 100 crore hindus , we will ensure hindus get bad press as the actual terrorists making wild allegations of their involment in blasts which we wont solve 

How does one react to this offer ? what do you do if you go to hit someone and to your shock you see him hitting himself much harder than what you inteneded to ? islamic extremists are in a simlar state of shock looking at what the hindu( secular) politicians are doing to their country .

pradeep
chennai, India
41/D-32
Jan 23, 2013
03:49 AM

pls read as below

  India copes by electing seculars who know how to make an offer to extremists and terrorists that even the terrorists are finding it hard to decide how to react ..

This is the offer they put on the table to the minority extremists :

1. You keep yours , we will share ours -

2. You want your own country , take it. You want to share our country? Of course you have the first claim to our resources

3. you want to stay here but cant follow our laws , no problem - you can have your own laws , we will overturn even supreme court rulings to keep you happy.

4. you want your own schools and don't want to integrate ? you have it .. we will give you special status and give subsidy .

5. you want to go on pilgrimage? we will subsidize and take you there .. you dont like hindus performing pilgrimage in areas which are recently islamized? no problem we will restrict access and withhold facilities - hopefully all those that want to do so will die in a few decades - couple of hundred a year

6. We will grant you land and money to run your religious organizations and will take over temple lands to give to the landless poor .

7. we will ensure you dont get bad press , we will call your terrorists young boys / college girls ., if one of you is caught red handed threatening to kill a 100 crore hindus , we will ensure hindus get bad press as the actual terrorists making wild allegations of their involvement in blasts which we wont solve .. when we make references to Osamaji and Saeed saheb we will do so respectfully

How does one react to this offer ? what do you do if you go to hit someone and to your shock you see him hitting himself much harder than what you intended to ? islamic extremists are in a similar state of shock looking at what the hindu (secular) politicians are doing to their country .

pradeep
chennai, India
42/D-36
Jan 23, 2013
05:34 AM

>> Wikipedia is pure garbage

Um, no.

It's a great resource. I use it extensively, and am thankful to the thousands of contributors who devote their time to help maintain and grow this great resource.

That said, there is always a scope for manipulation of an open resource like this. For example, take the current case. The jehadi takes a supposed quote from Goyal, and tries to project as if Hindus were responsible for decline of Buddhism in India. Let's examine in some details (which the sickos will never do).

Here is the link of the article quoted by the jehadi

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decline_of_Buddhism_in_India

Interestingly, their is no primary reference to the quote supposedly made by Goyal. There is a link to another article, which make this claim.

Well, I dutifully followed that article

www.asiantribune.com/news/2012/06/09/why-buddhism-prospered-asia-died-india

As expected, it's a crap piece. But more importantly, it does not give reference to the said quote by Goyal again.

So, did Goyal say the words ascribed to him? I digged some more. Found an article by the jehadi's hero Vinay Lal

www.google.com/url

Here is what he says

Nearly 20 years ago the historian S. R. Goyal wrote that "according to
many scholars hostility of the Brahmanas was one of the major causes of the decline of Buddhism in India."

He continues on about the Saivite king Shashanka, but that part is not in quotes. So, per my understanding at least, Goyal never said that.

So, it seems that Goyal's statement about hostility of Brahmans towards Buddhism (what's wrong with that?), has been extrapolated by one Ms Shenali Waduge to suggest that Goyal talks aout persecution of Buddhists by Hindus, and the consequent decline of the religion.

This is another fake link moment for the jehadi. If he had any shame, he would have tatooed LIAR on his forehead, and roamed around on the streets of Dallas. Expect him to hide in his hell hole though, and not respond to the fact that he lied (yet again).

Whats InAName
San Francisco, United States
43/D-37
Jan 23, 2013
05:39 AM

BTW, thanks to the resident jehadi's outpourings of hate against Hinduism in this article, I finally read the article (Outlook should give him a raise).

When Mani talks about Islam's influence on India, and one poster suggests that Mani's analysis is not correct, why the jehadi ass itch so much so as to start lying about Hinduism? You are free to spread hatred against Hinduism, but why is another poster required to talk about Hinduism's supposed prosecution of Buddhism in an article that talks about Islam?

Whats InAName
San Francisco, United States
44/D-38
Jan 23, 2013
05:47 AM
Whats InAName
San Francisco, United States
45/D-53
Jan 23, 2013
09:11 AM

>>If you had an argument,

The arguments were present in the subsequent two paras about Shashanka and Pushyamitra Sunga. But you would have noticed them only of you took time out from the despicable campaign you are running to blame Hinduism from destruction of Buddhism.

RSM
Delhi, India
46/D-54
Jan 23, 2013
09:13 AM

Rakhal and Whatsinaname, the SR Goyal Anwaar quotes is not Sitatam Goel.

RSM
Delhi, India
47/D-55
Jan 23, 2013
09:28 AM

RSM,

>> the despicable campaign you are running to blame Hinduism from destruction of Buddhism.

It is you guys who have been running this despicable game of blaming Muslims even for what you did to the Buddhism  (just as you almost succeeded in doing even now in Malegaon, Ajmer and Samjhauta Express). And you get so upset if anyone challengers your lies!

Anwaar
Dallas, United States
48/D-57
Jan 23, 2013
09:34 AM

>> Rakhal and Whatsinaname, the SR Goyal Anwaar quotes is not Sitatam Goel

Yeah. Did some research, and apparently, it's some guy name "Sri Rama Goyal".

Know nothing about the guy, except that his name is close enough to get confused, and that the sickos have been deliberately misquoting him. Putting it simply, they have been lying.

And as for flying pigs, these jehadis will happily ride these flying pigs if it fills their hate agenda of criticizing Hinduism. They are not humans. Normal concepts of shame and honor don't apply to them.

Whats InAName
San Francisco, United States
49/D-58
Jan 23, 2013
09:35 AM

>> It is you guys who have been running this despicable game of blaming Muslims even for what you did to the Buddhism

That's a lie. We never blamed Muslims for patronizing Buddhism.

Whats InAName
San Francisco, United States
50/D-59
Jan 23, 2013
09:38 AM

>> And you get so upset if anyone challengers your lies!

You are not smart, decent or honest enough to get us upset.

You are contemptible enough for our hate though.

Whats InAName
San Francisco, United States
51/D-71
Jan 23, 2013
10:27 AM

>>It is you guys who have been running this despicable game of blaming Muslims even for what you did to the Buddhism

Jihadi, stick to the frigging topic. You were spreading lies about Hinduism and I countered that. Which part of my post talks about Muslims and Buddhims? Don't you have any shame?

RSM
Delhi, India
52/D-72
Jan 23, 2013
10:34 AM

>>It is you guys who have been running this despicable game of blaming Muslims even for what YOU did to the Buddhism

What the f**k is YOU?? What did WE do to Buddhism? What a hate filled lowlife! Keeps on chanting 'today's Muslims are not responsible' but holds US responsible. You are just capable of spreading hate amongst your jihadi brethren!

RSM
Delhi, India
53/D-86
Jan 23, 2013
12:33 PM

@Anwaar: My good sire, who in India ignores Hindu extremists?
I have never seen the media dodge this issue. I am no RSS sympathiser either. But when has the media ignored them? The media on the other hand does largely ignore the Islamic 'research' foundation. & 'Dr.' Zakir Naik for example. There are other popular misogynistic, death for apostates screaming mullahs too. Many!

//No mention of course of Hindu destruction of Buddhism! Granted that Muslim rulers played havoc, but your dramatization ignores the fact that even after 700 years of Muslim rule,  Hindu religion, Hindu culture and Hindu populace are basically in tact.//

Sir, there are a few things wrong with this line of thinking. One is that you feel the need to defend, indirectly or directly a bunch of neanderthals even when judged by medieval standards, who as you say, 'played havoc'. They don't represent you, or me. Muslim Rajputs also fought against the Mughals in different parts of India. Ahmedabad for example. Urdu was looked down upon by the Mughals for the longest time who spoke persian in their courts. The destruction of temples is not just an anti religion act, it is also an act of looting of material wealth and culture. Quite normal too. Destruction of universities and what did they build with all that wealth? I like the Islamic 'mystics', I am sorry I can't bring myself to see the beauty of a holocaust like situation and do not see how it enriched us.
Second, I find it offensive that you after, indirectly or directly identifying with the medieval warlords, as if that wasn't bad enough, go on to claim that their benevolence and 'tolerance' is illustrated by the mere existence of the pagan Hindoos. That is a shocking statement. The Buddhism related point I will come to and that is a genuine question but this......This is a shocking statement. It is like saying Hitler deserves credit because look, Jews still exist!! Woo Hoo!! let's celebrate then and forget about what happened to them. lets nto learn from history. The resilience, sheer numbers, diversity, guerrilla warfare, massive forest tribal support, the martialisation of certain ethnic groups like the sikhs and the marathas & our native culture changing the turco mongols for the better are all reasons why we survived. Not central asian cultural benevolence! This is a horrid statement to make.
Third, and Last, the Hinduism destroyed Buddhism statement or question. Since this is a genuine question it doesn't bother me. If I am not wrong even Madam Thapar doesn;t push this theory anymore. But any way, Dr.Ambedkar would disagree with you and he along with several neo buddhists blamed the central asian invaders who came to be the enemy of the 'But' which he claimed is a corruption of Buddha. He, along with a lot of other scholars believe that Buddhism was ended because of the eliminationof the buddhist priesthood which happened under the Muslim Invading armies. You don't have to feel sorry about it. You ddin't do it. So please don't throw around statements like 'You people destroyed buddhism' at others. This is ahuge problem that you feel the need to defend a bunch of violent hicks.
The orthodox and heterodox indian philosophies lived together side by side and argued, as civilised people do, with each other looking to prove their intellectual superiority. The Nyaya school came into existence primarily to intellectually battle the Atheistic Buddhism. The heterodox and the orthodox philosophical schools inspired and 'enriched' each other. They influenced each other. The biggest dent was made however by the Advaitan scholar, Adi Shankara who went all around India establishing Advaitan 'centres' by debating Buddhist philosophical schools, ethnic and regional. And winning those debates. It was called Shaastraarth. They lived with each other for millenia and this part of the world BTW was largely Buddhist until Adi Shankara. It had become so, because of the intellectual dominance of Buddhism. They were smarter. Until Shankara convinced several hordes of buddhists about the similiarity b/w advaita and buddhism. It is for this reason Ramanujacharya, who followed and made famous 'Vishishta' Advaita, a specific brand of Advaita, with a few qualifications, called Shankara straight up,flat out, a closet Buddhist. That is how similiar, the value systems were. This false 'balancing' act doesn't work. The Dalai Lama doesn't think the Buddhists were tortured in India. And Pushyamitra's iconoclasm, alleged iconoclast behaviour, has been refuted and it's proponents don't even believe it now.
Moreover, have you been to the Buddha's birthplace and the area around the Nepal Bihar border where he was educated and later attained parinirvana(parinibbana in pali)??
They don't even distinguish b/w what is called Hinduism and what is called Buddhism over there. Almost all the conditions the astika schools agree on, buddhism agrees on as well. Except vedic authority. The Mauryas were buddhist,astika and jain at different times.
Every single example that you have given I can refute but I will stop here right now.
I just want you to know, that unlike some hindu fanatics I don't feel you are responsible for what the central asian invaders did. You don't have to personally apologise for it. EVEN if you directly descend from those chaps, which is practically impossible, Your ancestors were probably struggling under central asian cultural rule as well. Let's stay coherent sir.
Regards
 

Just Joe King
Gotham, India
54/D-91
Jan 23, 2013
12:52 PM

RSM,

>> Jihadi, stick to the frigging topic.

What an ill-bred idiot! BTW, my comment is 100% topical. Your rudeness comes out every time you have no answer.

Anwaar
Dallas, United States
55/D-92
Jan 23, 2013
01:01 PM

 Honorable Diplomat-turned-Politician-turned-Academic MSA,

are you also going to write a research paper on "how fish learns to swim?"

Might as well, otherwise they might think you are also on a venetian vacation and start serenading you :) 

hitesh brahmbhatt
san diego, United States
56/D-97
Jan 23, 2013
01:12 PM

>>What an ill-bred idiot! BTW, my comment is 100% topical. Your rudeness comes out every time you have no answer.

Imbecile mullah, you comment will be topical only within the four walls of a hate spewing madrassa.

RSM
Delhi, India
57/D-102
Jan 23, 2013
01:19 PM

>> You are just capable of spreading hate amongst your jihadi brethren

Wrong.

He is capable of spreading hate anywhere.

Whats InAName
San Francisco, United States
58/D-108
Jan 23, 2013
01:30 PM

Just Joe King,

>> The media on the other hand does largely ignore the Islamic 'research' foundation.
 

Not when it comes to reporting the ridiculous fatwas of Deobandi maulanas! Zakir Naik does get a lot of negative notice on Muslim websites. And the press loves to report on Imam Bukhari.

>>  a bunch of neanderthals even when judged by medieval standards.

You are as much a victim of the barrage of RSS propaganda as anybody else.

>>  the beauty of a holocaust like situation and do not see how it enriched us.

Those who perpetrate holocausts do not rule for 700 years. Views on how the Muslim rule enriched us may differ.

>>  go on to claim that their benevolence and 'tolerance' is illustrated by the mere existence of the pagan Hindoos.

When you add so much mirchi to what I had said, my straight-forward comment gets distorted beyond recognition.

>>  like saying Hitler deserves credit because look, Jews still exist.

Hitler decimated German Jewery. Your analogy is odious.

>>  the need to defend a bunch of violent hicks.

Hindu hicks had done the major part of destroying Buddhism. Muslim hicks finished the job. Hindus however have always been good at whitewashing their history.

>> I don't feel you are responsible for what the central asian invaders did.

That is good of you, but demonizing Muslims and glorifying Hindus is not doing much for communal harmony in India. Hindutva revisionist historians in India, just like the neanderthal revisionist historians in Pakistan, should not be allowed to prevail.

Anwaar
Dallas, United States
59/D-110
Jan 23, 2013
01:34 PM

"I just want you to know, that unlike some hindu fanatics I don't feel you are responsible for what the central asian invaders did."

You are 100% correct sir, but this argument has fallen on deaf ears time and again. I really dont understand this compulsion of nearly all Muslims to defend/whitewash fanatic and bigoted muslim rulers just because they were muslims.

Why even today they take offence of a poem written by a victim of molestation just because the fellows she is targeting in her poem happen to be muslims, never mind if they were the uneducated, fanantic, and anti-national goonda kind! Even 'cultured' and 'secular' muslims like Javed Akhtar take that position.

Thats why a Javed Anand pats the police on the back because the police DIDNT take action against these goondas who happened to be muslims!!

Kiran Bagachi
mumbai, India
60/D-115
Jan 23, 2013
01:54 PM

“Hindus however have always been good at whitewashing their history.”

For more than 50 years, the history taught in Indian schools through government approved boards and curriculum was written by leftist historians who, in the guise of ‘maintaining communal harmony’ whitewashed mughal history. But then the mullah believes that a lie repeated thousand times becomes a truth!

“Demonizing Muslims and glorifying Hindus is not doing much for communal harmony in India.”

The Mullah doesn’t realize that glorifying Muslim rulers for last 50 years has not done much for communal harmony in India either! Such blatant whitewashing does not hide scars! Truth has the nasty habit of entering from the door when thrown out of a window.

An honest historian would’ve presented facts along with opinions from both sides. But then leftists and jehadi apologists are not exactly known for their honesty, are they?

Kiran Bagachi
mumbai, India
61/D-128
Jan 23, 2013
02:45 PM

//Not when it comes to reporting the ridiculous fatwas of Deobandi maulanas! Zakir Naik does get a lot of negative notice on Muslim websites. And the press loves to report on Imam Bukhari.//
Naik gets talked about and cussed at by Shia extremists! Because he 'praised' Yazeed. If you listen to what he says it is hardly praise but the baggage that exists is quite clear to anyone that can think. Why should trivial things like this even matter? But no, he 'praised' yazeed, so lets put a fatwa on him. I can name several other 'peaceful' maulanas as well apart from Naik.  Indians don't have uniform civil law. Hindus are subject to(like christians) modern 20th and 21st century law. Muslims(except possibly, in Goa) are not. Criminal law is the same, civil law isn't. That is by definition, ANTI-Secularism.

//Those who perpetrate holocausts do not rule for 700 years. Views on how the Muslim rule enriched us may differ.//

They didn't! Bahadur Shah Zafar had squat in terms of power. The Vijaynagar kingdom under krishna dev rai had a pretty large kingdom if you want to call it that, too. The 'Islamic' rule, affected sections of India and continued over centuries. But wherever they did rule, for whatever time period, they battered & brutalised the prevailing civilisation and sent scores of ethnic groups scurrying for cover into the forests. Ther reasons for this civilisation surviving this 'holocaust', I have already made clear in the last post.

//You are as much a victim of the barrage of RSS propaganda as anybody else.//
Mughal propoganda, my friend. I have read all their accounts and travellers accounts apart from modern day accounts on them. They chronicled themselves very well. And I think the RSS is a bunch of hicks who are only slightly more relevant than my mucous. Is that enough RSS condemnation for you? Farrukh Dhondy is hardly an RSS sympathiser. Everyone that disagrees with you is not pro RSS.

//When you add so much mirchi to what I had said, my straight-forward comment gets distorted beyond recognition.//
We shall let the rest of posters on this thread decide what you said and if my response was appropriate. Is that allright, then?

//Hitler decimated German Jewery. Your analogy is odious.//
Right! And there was no 'decimation in the central asian barbarians area of influence for centuries? Dara Shikoh, was an exception. Wherever a large section of these scum ruled, decimation did indeed happen. Hitler wasn't stopping at Germany, was he? He wanted domination over all of europe. That didn't happen. Jews, specifically ran left, right and centre. Exactly the same happened to the natives over here, of all religions.

//Hindu hicks had done the major part of destroying Buddhism. Muslim hicks finished the job. Hindus however have always been good at whitewashing their history.//
Shankara, was a bit more than a hick. He alongwith the Buddha are easily the two most influential life philosophy spreaders in the world. I can quote passages from vedantist philsophy like the ashtavakra gita, or various works of shankara or even buddhist philosophers and their works on human consciousness are still relevant in the 21st century. These debates were important & are largely found in the various scriptures. India had shaiva vaishnava wars down south later. No whitewashing here, buddy. Buddhist hindu violence on the other hand, is a bit like Santa Claus in most cases. Imaginary! All their basic beliefs except one, are the same as mentioned in the last post.

//That is good of you, but demonizing Muslims and glorifying Hindus is not doing much for communal harmony in India. Hindutva revisionist historians in India, just like the neanderthal revisionist historians in Pakistan, should not be allowed to prevail.//
Anyone that has a different opinon doesn't become a Hindutva revisionist historian. I have read Thapar and the Habib brothers. Have you or have you not? You would look quite silly if you said no. There was a concerted effort, a campaign to whitewash medieval indian history, push blatantly racist concepts like the AIT. There was negationism and invader's records were concealed. It is easy to just dismiss someone as a chauvinist and conveniently ignore their facts.

I still don't understand why anyone would feel the need to identify with or defend a bunch of primitive warlords who really were only skilled at war!
I shall let others carry this conversation forward

Just Joe King
Gotham, India
62/D-129
Jan 23, 2013
02:47 PM

 Anwaar >> It is you guys who have been running this despicable game of blaming Muslims even for what you did to the Buddhism

We keep hearing from professional leftist (of all hues) that hindoos in authority crushed buddhist faith in india well before islam came into India.

All right, even if  we agree that this were true (despite the lack of evidence for this), i just have a question here..

If one believes that the sudden death of buddhism and sudden vanishing of buddhist places of worship in India was due to some cruel genocide of hindoos of medevial India, can we also say that the sudden rise of buddhism from 300 BC (during the rule of emperor ashoka) to become the supreme religion of India came on the back of cruel genocides perpetrated by the buddhist rulers of the times on the non buddhist population, and an authoritarian regime that collaborated to destroy hindoo places of worship?

Moral of the tale - History cannot be built on some flimsy assumptions made to suit the gaps on the side of one's ideology. 

Ramki
Delhi, India
63/D-131
Jan 23, 2013
02:55 PM

 Leaving aside the professional leftist, and islamofascist rabblerousers, the real reason why buddhism vanished in India is something different from the usual conspiracy theories..

The fact is, just before Islam arrived into India (from NW india or present day pakistan), hinduism went through a massive upheaval through a bhakthi movement that was itself a long work in progress and that reconstructed a new faith out of the ritual vedic based hinduism and this bhakti hinduism went far ahead in spreading the name and fame of hindoo gods to the previously neglected and ignored sections of Indian society.

At same time, buddhism itself as a faith , was more than 1400 years old by 1100 AD and had shown over generations that as a faith it heavily depended on "Official/GOvernment/Institutional support" and was way too centralized and also refused to accept minor/regional gods/godheads/godpersons and focussed too much on philosophical angle at the neglect or some basic rituals that were understandable to the lay person..

So we had a Buddhism and Hinduism, one centralised, governing authority backed, rigid faith in competition with another totally decentralized, localized faith that was totally driven by elements outside the government..

Once islamic rulers conquered India it was very obvious that the former lost out in the battle. 

This is not just in India. Buddhism was a thriving faith in indonesia too, but after 1400 AD, islam came in and buddhism withered away and is now a minor faith there. It is not to argue here for any cruelty on part of islam. In Indonesia, islam's spread was not so violent and was gradual and benign. The point is buddhism as a faith declined in the absence of official support , in all places.

The proof for same is illustrated in that where-ever Islamic rulers did not come,  buddhism flourished and has been a dominant faith till date..

Examples - Sri Lanka, Ladakh, parts of NE India, bhutan, Myanmar, Thailand , Japan..

Ramki
Delhi, India
64/D-140
Jan 23, 2013
03:48 PM

 Mani Shankar Aiyar, talking about the increase of Muslim population in Europe, terms it as "the single most disturbing civilisational challenge facing the Europeans." Yet, without batting an eyelid, he insists that the Islamic phase of Indian history was a harmonious phase which had only a positive impact on Indian civilisation!

A man who proudly flaunts a Brahmin surname and yet hates everything about Hinduism, someone who takes his orders from an Italian, is asked to lecture the Italians on the virtues of secularism-Indian style;  what a delicious irony. He treats them to a sopoforic fairy tale of "a syncretic civilisational framework within which it is possible to devise solutions". Did he tell them that one of the solutions devised by his givernment was the principle that minorities have "the first claim on a nation's resources?"

Islam and Christianity share a lot in common; the most important difference is in the hold exerted on the masses. Whereas amongst European Christians, the Church exerts a marginal influence on their lives and no influence whatsoever on their political behaviour, the same cannot be said about the Muslims. Unless the Europeans understand the political behaviour of their Muslim population, they will find it hard to cope with the changing demography of their countries.

An audience, possibly completely ignorant of Indian history, politely applauds and Aiyar takes it as a huge, 'fulsome' compliment. It reminds me of "gondoliers serenading bewildered Japanese couples to the strains of La Paloma."

D.L.Narayan
Visakhapatnam, India
65/D-172
Jan 23, 2013
08:08 PM

I apologise for an unintended typo in my previous post. It should read soporific instead of what was typed in the second paragraph.

D.L.Narayan
Visakhapatnam, India
66/D-180
Jan 23, 2013
09:12 PM

 "Rakhal and Whatsinaname, the SR Goyal Anwaar quotes is not Sitatam Goe"

I should have known. When I saw that statement, I was confident that Sita Ram Goel would not have made that statement about Buddhism. I went to his book and checked and sure enough-he did not say it. He said the complete opposite.

I am eagerly waiting for Anwaar to quote Shikari Sambu next.

Rakhal
Philadelphia, United States
67/D-8
Jan 24, 2013
01:35 AM

Just Joe,

>> Naik gets talked about and cussed at by Shia extremists!

Not true! He is condemned by many non-Shia Muslims, mainly for his disrespect for other religions, for other sects and for women, and for his rigid literalism.
 


 

>> Indians don't have uniform civil law.... That is by definition, ANTI-Secularism.

UCC would be good, but its absence is not anti-secularism. British courts and German courts too accept Jewish and Islamic civil laws.

>> they battered & brutalised the prevailing civilisation and sent scores of ethnic groups scurrying for cover into the forests.

Gross exaggeration! If they had done so, they would not have lasted 700 years.

>> Mughal propoganda, my friend. I have read all their accounts and travellers accounts apart from modern day accounts on them. They chronicled themselves very well.

This was discussed extensively only recently in this forum. Muslim writers of the period are false witnesses because they wrote what they thought would please their masters and readers, namely exaggerations of how the "infidels" were dealt with.

>> Wherever a large section of these scum ruled, decimation did indeed happen.

Not true. These are the inventions of the revisionists.

>> Shankara, was a bit more than a hick.

Agree! But many others, kings as well as monks, were involved in the destruction of Buddhism.

>> Anyone that has a different opinon doesn't become a Hindutva revisionist historian.

Purposeful revisionism is foul, no matter who practices it.

This is a good note to end this dialogue, which has been repeated umpteen times already.

Anwaar
Dallas, United States
68/D-9
Jan 24, 2013
01:37 AM

Ramki,

>> History cannot be built on some flimsy assumptions made to suit the gaps on the side of one's ideology.

Good advice for yourself!

Anwaar
Dallas, United States
69/D-12
Jan 24, 2013
01:52 AM

D.L.Narayan,

>> Did he tell them that one of the solutions devised by his givernment was the principle that minorities have "the first claim on a nation's resources?"

A popular but mean-spirited Sanghi distortion of the PM's noble sentiment expressed in the wake of the depressive Sachar report.

Anwaar
Dallas, United States
70/D-30
Jan 24, 2013
07:08 AM

 >> Did he tell them that one of the solutions devised by his givernment was the principle that minorities have "the first claim on a nation's resources?" - DL Narayan

A popular but mean-spirited Sanghi distortion of the PM's noble sentiment expressed in the wake of the depressive Sachar report. - Anwaar

Like it or not Man Mohan Singh DID make the statement. Those living in denial can spin it anyway they like. His exact words as reported in Outlook in 'The First Claim on Resources'

"We will have to devise innovative plans to ensure that minorities, particularly the Muslim minority, are empowered to share equitably in the fruits of development. They must have the first claim on resources." - Dr Manmohan Singh at National Developement Council 2006 (emphasis added).

Bonita
Chennai, India
71/D-31
Jan 24, 2013
07:28 AM

Bonita,

I did not deny MMS said it. The mean-spirited spin of the Sanghis on the PM's positive statement in the immediate aftermath of the shocking Sachar Report is somewhat typical.

Anwaar
Dallas, United States
72/D-33
Jan 24, 2013
08:15 AM

 Anwaar,

So what exactly is the PM's noble sentiment.

The moment you start to identify deprivation on the basis of caste or creed, you are playing the divisive game. We have enough of that as it is. Is a poor member of a minority community any worse off than a poor majorit? To put this to reductio ad absurdem - If you have just enough to feed ONE poor person and you have to choose between a minority person and a majority person, would you apply the PM's logic in deciding which one to feed?

We have the argument that the continued special benefits to some sections is a recompense for centuries (or millenia) of ill treatment, ignoring the fact that those who have long moved beyond the deprived or ill treated continue to have first claim on these benefits at the expense of their less fortunate brethren. Which minority in India can claim that it too has centuries of deprivation to make up. 

This is an endless debate, but triggered by the blatant use of the communal card NOT noble sentiments. Call me a sanghi if you wish, but I believe that all Indians irrespective of caste or creed are the same and should be treated similarly and (sore point) subject to the same laws.

Bonita
Chennai, India
73/D-35
Jan 24, 2013
09:09 AM

Bonita ,

The PM was not going to take anything from the Sanghis and give it to the Muslims. Any words of commiseration for Muslims would be anathema for the saffronites. They become one more opportunity to badmouth MMS!

Anwaar
Dallas, United States
74/D-42
Jan 24, 2013
09:58 AM

 Anwaar,

The PM was not going to take anything from the Sanghis and give it to the Muslims

Your logic is flawed. The nation's resources are finite. If someone has first call, then obviously the rest have to take what's left over. In a family would you accept that one child based on gender - male or female, take your pick - has first claim over the household's reources. If the father (or mother) made such a statement,  would not the other children have reason to be aggrieved.

PS. Are you now using Sanghis as a synonym for Hindus, who happen to be the non-minority community in this country.

Bonita
Chennai, India
75/D-43
Jan 24, 2013
10:02 AM

>> So what exactly is the PM's noble sentiment

Tum mujhe vote do. Main Hinduon ke resources tumhe doonga.

Whats InAName
San Francisco, United States
76/D-46
Jan 24, 2013
10:06 AM

>> Your logic is flawed

Not his fault. It was a banned subject at his Madrassa, where he learned only jehad and hate for the kafirs.

No wonder he equates the entire Muslim community with his Azad Maidan brethren.

Whats InAName
San Francisco, United States
77/D-48
Jan 24, 2013
10:16 AM

The very fact that votaries of secularism see something noble in out PM's 'first claim' statement shows how distorted and perverse our understanding of secularism has become.

RSM
Delhi, India
78/D-55
Jan 24, 2013
10:59 AM

>>The PM was not going to take anything from the Sanghis and give it to the Muslims

Actually it is not Sonia's family treasure which PM distributes to Muslims - it is the taxpayers money. And according to Sachar, Muslims are not participating in the recent growth which means it is Hindu tax payer money.

RSM
Delhi, India
79/D-57
Jan 24, 2013
11:08 AM

>> The very fact that votaries of secularism see something noble in out PM's 'first claim' statement shows how distorted and perverse our understanding of secularism has become

The easiest way to hate this "secularism" is to talk to some "seculars".

Whats InAName
San Francisco, United States
80/D-70
Jan 24, 2013
01:22 PM

>>  If someone has first call .....

A symbolic way of empathizing, not to be taken literally.

Anwaar
Dallas, United States
81/D-79
Jan 24, 2013
02:12 PM

 "We have a syncretic civilisational framework within which it is possible to devise solutions" - Mani Shankar Aiyar

"We will have to devise innovative plans to ensure that minorities, particularly the Muslim minority, are empowered to share equitably in the fruits of development. They must have the first claim on resources." - Dr Manmohan Singh

@Anwaar - Where is the spin when I juxtapose the two statements by Aiyar and Dr. Singh? Both are talking of devising solutions and I have posed a relevant question. 

Of what use are "noble sentiments" when they make no difference whatsoever? Have any concrete steps been taken to address the underlying reasons for backwardness? In the absence of such steps, the conclusion is inevitable that Muslims are being treated as a vote bank and these so-called political parties have a vested interest in keeping them backward and promote a sense of insecurity in them.

I am not a Sanghi or an apologist for them. Being of a truly liberal, secular and democratic disposition, their brand of politics as well as that of the Congress are equally abhorrent. to me. Most Hindus are like me otherwise,given the overwhelming demographic profile, there would have been no barrier to the imposition of a Hindu theocracy in India. 

The problem with the Muslim Indians is that they lack a credible forward looking leadership that can overcome the stranglehold of the mullahs on their mindset. They are led only by the Owaisis, the Congress, the Mulayams and the Laloos who collaborate with the mullahs instead of challenging them. Nobody tries to make them join the mainstream and submerge their sub-identities into a larger identity as Indians. Those who have joined the mainstream ahve done exceedingly well. Religion has never been a hurdle for Azeem Premji, the Khans of Bollywood, innumerable sportsmen and women and millions like them. The ranks of the poor are not the exclusive domain of Muslims; there is a proportional number of Hindus and Christians as well. 

Can Islam ever be syncretic for long? Look at what has happened to Sufism and see how Wahabbism and Tablighism are destroying the syncretic framework by reverting to an uncompromisingly intolerant and puritan version of Islam. An Akbar is always succeeded by an Aurangzeb.

Of course, Mani Shankar Aiyar, for all his erudtion, is just a lackey of the dynasty. He cannot go beyond making the right noises about syncretic civilisational framework and innovative solutions. The ground reality remains that the sway of the mullahdom remains unchallenged and unless it mounted from within, I see no hope.

D.L.Narayan
Visakhapatnam, India
82/D-80
Jan 24, 2013
02:32 PM

D.L.Narayan,

  The PM's remark about empowering the minorities was a sincere attempt to show empathy in the aftermath of the Sachar Report which had portrayed the Muslim economic decline to be grim. The remark has been made into a political football by the RSS/BJP parivaris. I have not seen secular or liberal Hindus joining in on this hounding of the PM. It has become like one of those code words coined by the BJP sloganeers such as "pseudo-secular", "appeasement", "vote bank" etc.

Anwaar
Dallas, United States
83/D-84
Jan 24, 2013
02:41 PM

 Errata: "these so-called political parties" in the above post should read - these so-called "secular" political parties. 

D.L.Narayan
Visakhapatnam, India
84/D-89
Jan 24, 2013
03:08 PM

@Anwaar:

The fact remains that poverty alleviation should be top priority for any Government. The first call on a nation's resources should rightfully go to the poor, irrespective of their religion.

In what way is a person's religion or ethnicity a valid determinant of economic status? Any unbiased person would see a shameless pandering to communal sensibilities to derive political mileage without taking concrete steps for poverty alleviation.

Maybe you think that symbolism is preferable to actual measures; I don't. The fact remains that in Narendra Modi's Gujarat, Muslims are better off than their counterparts in the rest of India.This is an important finding of the Sachar report. Dr. Singh's comments should be seen in this context. You can read the full article below and it is on a Pakistani site, not Sanghi propaganda.

"http://www.thenews.com.pk/Todays-News-2-133721-Modi-emerging-as-popular-leader-of-Muslims-in-Gujarat

D.L.Narayan
Visakhapatnam, India
85/D-97
Jan 24, 2013
03:47 PM

"They must have the first claim on resources." - PM

In a truly secular country, the PM would be put behind bars for dividing society on the basis of religion.

K.Suresh
Bangalore, India
86/D-100
Jan 24, 2013
04:12 PM

"A symbolic way of empathizing..."

Yeah! And if the fools are happy with just symbolic way of empathizing, why do anything more? MMS and congress has understood it perfectly that not only uneducated muslims but even the so called 'educated' and 'liberal' ones are happy with just that. 

Both want to maintain the status quo and keep the ordinary muslim uneducated, stupid, and angry. 

Kiran Bagachi
mumbai, India
87/D-123
Jan 24, 2013
06:11 PM

 Anwaar,

A popular but mean-spirited Sanghi distortion of the PM's noble sentiment - #69

I did not deny MMS said it - #71

The PM was not going to take anything from the Sanghis and give it to the Muslims - #74

A symbolic way of empathizing, not to be taken literally - #80

The PM's remark about empowering the minorities was a sincere attempt to show empathy - #82

Give it up. You are tying yourself in knots as your own chain of comments shows. First you denounced the first claim on resources comment as a sanghi distortion of facts. Then you admit he said it (so it was not a distortion?)  but was a noble sentiment. Then you go on to say that the PM had no intention of giving minorities anything but was just empathising.

The comment that the statement that was not meant to be taken lterally, means that in effect the PM was being economical with the truth or to put it simply lying. Ergo he is cynically playing the communal card for electoral benefit. Is this what you call secularism?

Bonita
Chennai, India
88/D-130
Jan 24, 2013
08:15 PM

 @ Bonita - "The PM was being economical with the truth or to put it simply lying. Ergo he is cynically playing the communal card for electoral benefit."

According to the Sachar Committee, the Muslims of Gujarat are doing better than Muslims in the rest of India on all parameters. The same Gujarat which is lead by the Congress' arch rival, Narendra Modi.

Faced with this factual challenge, Dr.Manmohan Singh was trying to reclaim lost ground with his famous "first call" speech. He had no intention of walking the talk. Even Anwaar seems to agree.

D.L.Narayan
Visakhapatnam, India
89/D-135
Jan 24, 2013
08:42 PM

Is it s coincidence that all the historical Budhhist temples have brahmin priests ?

kishoredasmunshi
Kolkatta, India
90/D-14
Jan 25, 2013
02:59 AM

D.L.Narayan,

>> In what way is a person's religion or ethnicity a valid determinant of economic status?

The shoe is on the other foot! Hindu Dalits are entitled to reservations. Dalits who converted to Buddhism are entitled to reservations. But Dalits who converted to Islam are not!

Anwaar
Dallas, United States
91/D-15
Jan 25, 2013
03:06 AM

Bonita,

>> First you denounced the first claim on resources comment as a sanghi distortion of facts. Then you admit he said it (so it was not a distortion?) but was a noble sentiment. Then you go on to say that the PM had no intention of giving minorities anything but was just empathizing.

There is no inconsistency. If an innocent and empathetic comment is abused to malign the PM, that is distortion.

Anwaar
Dallas, United States
92/D-16
Jan 25, 2013
03:09 AM

D.L.Narayan,

>> According to the Sachar Committee, the Muslims of Gujarat are doing better than Muslims in the rest of India.

They always did. Khojas, Bohras and Memons of Gujarat have for long been known for their enterprise.

Anwaar
Dallas, United States
93/D-23
Jan 25, 2013
05:23 AM

>> They always did. Khojas, Bohras and Memons of Gujarat have for long been known for their enterprise.

It's much more than enterprise.

Per Wikipedia
Even in terms of employment Gujarat had a better share of Muslims in government jobs (5.4%) than compared to states like West Bengal (2.1%) and New Delhi (3.2%).

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sachar_Committee_Report

And AFAIK, Gujarat has around 10% Muslims, while WB around 30%. So, the difference is around 2 times, but closer to 7 times.

Whats InAName
San Francisco, United States
94/D-26
Jan 25, 2013
05:39 AM

>> The shoe is on the other foot! Hindu Dalits are entitled to reservations

This is true. Muslim and Christian Dalits should be entitled to reservations.

As much as I abhor reservations, particularly along caste lines, it is unfair to deny it to people based on religion. Religion should be a personal choice. The principle of reservation is based on social and educational backwardness, which (particularly the latter) does not get eradicated by conversion.

Whats InAName
San Francisco, United States
95/D-38
Jan 25, 2013
10:40 AM

"The shoe is on the other foot! Hindu Dalits are entitled to reservations."

There is no foot here. Muslims and Christians dont have the concept of dalit. Period. 

Kiran Bagachi
mumbai, India
96/D-39
Jan 25, 2013
10:43 AM

>>This is true. Muslim and Christian Dalits should be entitled to reservations.

There is no concept of Muslim and Christian Dalits. Hence they should not be entitled unless it is accepted by these two religions that Dalits and their mistreatment is a social problem and not a religious one OR that these religions too practice caste discrimination. You can’t have the cake and eat it too.

>>As much as I abhor reservations, particularly along caste lines, it is unfair to deny it to people based on religion.

Reservation is not denied on the basis of religion. Muslims are entitled to reservation in our country as backwards.
 

RSM
Delhi, India
97/D-49
Jan 25, 2013
12:43 PM

RSM,

>> There is no concept of Muslim and Christian Dalits.

The RSS machine puts out a bogus explanation and everyone repeats it! Is it the "concept" that gets you reservations or  is it a compensation for 2000 years of psychological, social and economic deprivation, subjugation and humiliation?

Anwaar
Dallas, United States
98/D-55
Jan 25, 2013
01:56 PM

>>The RSS machine puts out a bogus explanation and everyone repeats it!

Our resident jihadi just cant frame a sentence without getting RSS in it. If such explanations are put by the RSS, why don't you get your Mullah brethren to claim that casteism exists in Islam too!

>>Is it the "concept" that gets you reservations or is it a compensation for 2000

Then first establish that Islam has been engaging in 2000 years of psychological, social and economic deprivation, subjugation and humiliation before barfing here.

RSM
Delhi, India
99/D-56
Jan 25, 2013
02:04 PM

@ Anwaar: I said valid indicator of ECONOMIC status, not social. 

The fact that the prosperous Gujarati Muslims have continued to prosper during Modi's stewardship proves that his government is not inimical to Muslims. There has been neither flight of capital, nor relocation of businesses or migration to other states. 

My question to you is: What concrete steps has the Manmohan Singh government taken in light of the Sachar report, other than articulating the ridiculous "first call" doctrine? Please name at least one step for addressing the root cause of Muslim backwardness.

D.L.Narayan
Visakhapatnam, India
100/D-59
Jan 25, 2013
02:24 PM

RSM,

>>  first establish that Islam has been engaging in 2000 years of psychological, social and economic deprivation, subjugation and humiliation.

Dalits who converted to Islam were subjected to 2000 years of psychological, social and economic deprivation, subjugation and humiliation before their conversion, just as Dalits who did not convert, or Dalits who converted to Buddhism were. Are you retarded?

 

Anwaar
Dallas, United States
101/D-61
Jan 25, 2013
02:38 PM

D.L.Narayan,

>> I said valid indicator of ECONOMIC status, not social.

I addressed economic status too.

>> What concrete steps has the Manmohan Singh government taken in light of the Sachar report.

With the BJP's overtly hostile attitude to the Sachar Report, it would be political suicide to implement the Sachar Report. We get no action, but good intentions do trump hostility!

Anwaar
Dallas, United States
102/D-66
Jan 25, 2013
03:02 PM

 Anwaar,

With the BJP's overtly hostile attitude to the Sachar Report, it would be political suicide to implement the Sachar Report. We get no action, but good intentions do trump hostility!

With every post on this subject you make it clearer and clearer that there was no noble sentiment or empathy only cynical political calculation to garner a vote bank.

Bonita
Chennai, India
103/D-68
Jan 25, 2013
03:10 PM

Bonita,

>>  there was no noble sentiment or empathy only cynical political calculation to garner a vote bank.

I am not surprised you see it that way!

Anwaar
Dallas, United States
104/D-69
Jan 25, 2013
03:23 PM

>>Dalits who converted to Islam were subjected to 2000 years of psychological, social and economic deprivation, subjugation and humiliation before their conversion,

Moron, were they subjected to such humiliation after conversion is the damn question. And if they were, why did they convert? The fathers of our constitution were clear why reservation were not to be extended to Islam and Christianity. So stop peddling bloody fiction here, twerp.

RSM
Delhi, India
105/D-70
Jan 25, 2013
03:38 PM

>>With the BJP's overtly hostile attitude to the Sachar Report, it would be political suicide to implement the Sachar Report.

Such is the logic of jihadis. It would be political suicide to implement SR because of BJP hostility but it would not be political suicide to make 'symbolic' fist claim communal statements. After all, a Muslim's stomach can be filled with just symbolism.

RSM
Delhi, India
106/D-83
Jan 25, 2013
05:04 PM

>>Dalits who converted to Islam were subjected to 2000 years of psychological, social and economic deprivation, subjugation and humiliation before their conversion.

It took a long 2000 years of psychological, social and economic deprivation, subjugation and humiliation for Dalits to convert to Islam.

But Dalits who were converted to Islam did not need that long a time, nor sundry excuses.

K.Suresh
Bangalore, India
107/D-105
Jan 25, 2013
10:37 PM

 Mr Aiyar

You usurped the Rajya Sabha seat clainign you were writer. Well all the fiction you write about the Gandy parivar, make you a real fiction writer.

Except that you are the shah of blah... about your own greatness that is...

sanjay
delhi, india
108/D-15
Jan 26, 2013
04:19 AM

RSM,

>> were they subjected to such humiliation after conversion is the damn question.

Intergenerational scars of 2000 years of subjugation and humiliation put a people at a competitive disadvantage, but that will never enter that thick skull of yours.

Anwaar
Dallas, United States
109/D-17
Jan 26, 2013
04:22 AM

RSM,

>>  It would be political suicide to implement SR because of BJP hostility but it would not be political suicide to make 'symbolic' fist claim communal statement.

Only an imbecile would make such an obviously stupid comment.

Anwaar
Dallas, United States
110/D-33
Jan 26, 2013
07:30 AM

>>  Is it the "concept" that gets you reservations or is it a compensation for 2000 years of psychological, social and economic deprivation, subjugation and humiliation?

It is neither. It is just a bunch of pusillanimous idiots, who are unable to gather courage to do the right thing, and abolish the entire reservations program. National interest has been sacrificed on the altar of political correctness and fear of losing votes.

Whats InAName
San Francisco, United States
111/D-34
Jan 26, 2013
07:36 AM

>> Reservation is not denied on the basis of religion. Muslims are entitled to reservation in our country as backwards.

Reservation is denied on the basis of religion to Dalit Muslims and Christians. If they are competing in OBC category, that's not really fair.

I don't like the concept of reservations. I can also understand the argument that these "egalitarian religions" don't have caste, so caste based reservations for these groups are silly to some extent.

However, I've always believed, and said so earlier on these boards, that reservations, if given, should go to the genuinely needy. By allowing rich/second generation Hindu Dalits, who have had the benefit of a good school education, to avail the benefits of reservation, while denying it to a Muslim dalit, who suffers from genuine deprivation, is grossly unfair, in my opinion.

Whats InAName
San Francisco, United States
112/D-36
Jan 26, 2013
07:46 AM

One has to hand it to the resident jehadi though. He successfuly baits many of us to spin the discussion the way he wants.

Look at the article. It has nothing about Hinduism, caste, Buddhism, reservations, etc. But if you see the discussion, one would assume that that's all the article is about.

He employs a fairly simple, effective strategy. Make some outrageous statements, backed by no, or little evidence of extremely dubious quality. He shall pretend that he is attacking RSS, but shall often extend it to attack Hinduism. He shall refrain from answering any questions. e.g., regarding his lies about the actual statement of "Goyal".

Similarly,,he shall ignore other issues. e.g., regarding "first claim", the entire discussion is around reservations for Dalits. Not one word about special privileges available to Muslims, that are denied to Hindus. Why does the govt take funds from Hindu temples to pay Mullahs and Muzzeins? Why should Hindu funds be used to support Madrassa education, and anti-national centers like AMU?

It's the same plot each time. When it comes to Syed, we should foc