Madhu Kishwar’s piece The Kettle Hits Back is a succour for people like me who aren’t really happy with Narendra Modi’s perceived anti-Muslim shades but still believe he must be given a chance to counter the feudal, crony order of the G clan.
Kumar Rakesh, Chandigarh
Madhu Kishwar, you’re a fearless, honest writer who tells it like it really is.
Krishan Chhibbar, Lorton, US
Can’t agree more with this tweet Kishwar put up once: ‘Congress darjanon riots hazam kar gayi, Modi ek bhi nahin kar paya. Secularism ka mukhauta laga lo, to sab maaf (The Congress could digest a dozen riots; Modi, not even one. Wear the mask of secularism, and all’s forgiven).”
Gurkirat Singh, Delhi
Were Outlook editors on holiday or what?
Jainarayan K., Chennai
Madhu Kishwar is either incredibly stupid or wilfully blind to the fact that once communal parties come to power and stay there, there will be no need for communal violence as the minorities will be terrorised and marginalised. Look only at Pakistan, there is no Hindu-Muslim violence as could conceivably have been the case. While healthy debate should be encouraged, Kishwar does not belong to a forum like Outlook unless she writes as a Modi representative and not as a columnist.
H.M. Siddhanti, Richmond, US
Congress is the biggest communal party in India, because it is anti-Hindu.
Bi Saroja
Did you find out simple figure as to how many Hindi rioters were killed in Police firings in India ??
Take guidance of Nakli -Asli Seculars if you desire .
Otherwise all of you kindly stop your hate prachar which is actually aimed at to increase the divide between the Races and spread communal hatred in India and drag it on the Path of destruction like Pakistan??
200 to 20000 Sikhs Killed''
Be read 2000 to 20000 Sikhs killed by Hindu rioters and Srcu POLICE killed NIL Hindu Rioter.
As per Gujarat Govt figures, about 1200 people were were killed in 2002. Out of this 950 were muslims. The number of people killed in police firing was 170.- 77 hindus and 93 muslims. ""
I give you your piyari Secular Govt's final figures against whom you are very angry now a days like all pro Jihadi elements are due your Guru's hanging.
" Gujarat riots killed 254 Hindus, 790 Muslims
The Central government on Wednesday informed the Rajya Sabha that 254 Hindus and 790 Muslims were killed in the post Godhra riots in Gujarat.'
Minister of State for Home Affairs Sriprakash Jaiswal said a total of 223 people were reported missing, 2,548 sustained injuries during the riots in 2002. '"
www.rediff.com/news/2005/may/11guj.htm
NOW YOU DOUBT WHAT HOME MINISITER OF CONGRESS Sarkar said in Sarkar ???
Incidentally Bi Saroja the figure of the Congress Sarkar just are above the HT link on Google you gave to hoodwink us.
The number of people killed in police firing was 170.- 77 hindus and 93 muslims. -BI Saroja you say . OK : So when
Gujarat Police killed 170 Rioter :: HINDUS 77 & 93 Muslims.
Dhule Mahrastra Police killed :: Hindus ZERO & 6 Muslims
1984 Police killed :: HINDUS NIL & 1200 to 20000 Sikhs Killed
In 67Years Secu Rule Police killed :: Hindus ZERO &Muslim 60000
I have not taken in the count figures of Sikhs killed during Panjab Insurgency nor 1948 Hyderabad .
OK now what you say in 2002 Muslism killed 950 and 250 Hindus killed
Where as during Secular Rule how many Hindus parished ??
BI SAROJA I SIMPLY COMPARED THE WORST FIGURES YOU Anti Modi brigade quote.
Still Secus' record is fiendish !
Take help of your Secu Guru ,Nakli Secu Brigade ,Teesta your Guruani etc to slove how come Modi is far far better that your Secu Sarkars.
You all just telling lies . Hom to bail out ?? Because all your unbaalnced ,unsubtantiated and false rants and raves are just hurting Muslims more and more .
You are the real enemies of Muslisms .
2 And mind it is you Zihadi Babe who said two days back that like Ansal Palza killings of innocents BJP stage managed Parliament attack to hang Afzal Guru.
"...yes, one of the many hats that I wear"
Too many hats spoils the brain!!
Bonita,
I came across Bal's article as I was hunting for transcript of Shahid Siddiqui's speech. Both Kishwar's and Bal's articles are polemical. Polemics is usually not my style and through experience, I know that it clouds the brain and heart. Of course I place Madhu's article as being far superior to Bal's.
She raises important issues about lack of depth in the media over virtually everything. As a farmer (yes, one of the many hats that I wear), I am very well aware of how drip irrigation was subsidized in Tamil Nadu even many years ago. My farm has black cotton soil, and though I have not gone for cotton cultivation, I have keenly followed all controversies over Bt-cotton. So the issues are not one sided as Madhu paints, but that is only emphasises the need for in depth coverage of these issues in the media.
Where I really saw red was attack on activists working for riot victims. I am perfectly aware of slander campaign that has been going on and I try my bit to counter that.
The figures that I quote are a take on Madhu Kishwar's assertion that Muslims constitute 10% of Police in Gujarat. Crime Bureau statistics for 2011 do not support that. I must thank everyone in this forum for making me learn about Crime Bureau etc. Now I have some more tools at my hand.
I am not saying that Gujarat is at the bottom. It is an average performing state of India. You do not have anyone from better performing states staking a claim to PM ship. I don't know on what basis Modi for PM campaign is being run.
In this heat, debate on "legalizing Prostitution" is being missed news.outlookindia.com/items.aspx . As I shall be travelling extensively for the next few weeks, I may not be able to join the debate. But I have put a female and feminist perspective on that and hope someone here keeps alive that perspective.
Saroja,
Any way, I should have done more research before.
That's more like it. Now you have contested Madhu Kishwar's figures with figures of your own rather than regurgitating Bal's rubbish.
PS.Assuming that your figures are correct, does that mean that Gujarati Muslims are too cowardly to join the police or are they being kept out by the administration?
Recently, the Times of India reported that Gujarat with a 9 % Muslim population has 10% Muslim personnel in its police stations. No other state matches this figure.
Here is what I found from Frontline of 2006 that Muslim population in Gujarat as about 9% while in Police the figure was under 6% as per National Crime Records Bureau Record for 2004; www.frontlineonnet.com/fl2324/stories/20061215002503300.htm So Muslim representation in Police force in Gujarat had jumped to 10 or 11% under the beniegn rule of Modi! I was impressed. But knowing of Times of India's record for planted stories, paid news etc, decided to do some independent investigation.
As per National Crime Records Bureau, ncrb.nic.in/ during the year 2011 the total police personnel in Gujarat was 71670 out of which muslims constituted 3087 making 4.3% of the total. Andhra Pradesh during 2011 had 8933 muslim police personnel out of a total of 89404 making a total of 10% of the total while in the general population as per 2001 census muslims constituted 9.17% of the population. Of course there are other states with worse figure; Gujarat is not at the bottom, it is not at the top. It is one of the average states.
Times of India and Economic Times had earlier come up with stories of Teesta Spicing up Gujarat atrocity stories. The rebuttal lawandotherthings.blogspot.in/2009/04/expose-of-activism-and-truth.html has not been given enough publicity and even after verdict in Naroda Patiya case, there are sites which repeat the TOI story.
BRILLIANT ARTICLE
I forgot to thank you for the link to Hartosh Bal's article. He has exposed himself as not being anti-Modi (which is a position he is entitled to take) but anti-Gujarat as well. Is the latter position because the people of Gujarat do not share his antipathy to Modi.
Now we have links to Haritosh Bal's article to refute Madhu Kishwar. Bal is a total idiot and I had exposed him in these forums when he tried to pick holes in the SIT report. But my efforts were unnecessary as anyone following the Gujarat election coverage on Times Now would realize that Bal only needed to open his mouth to show everybody that he is an idiot who thrives on Modi hate.
>>I did not have to hunt around too much.
I asked you what part of the interview you found damning and you provide me with Open Magazine links to the opinion of the interviewer? Saroja, take some effort, go through the interview and point out what you found damning.
*Teesta Setalvad and Dr.Subramanian Swamy are both loudmouths. The difference is, Dr.Swamy is intelligent,intellectual,well-read,hygeinic(imp because sometimes looking at arundhati roy or Teesta setalvad can create acute nausea) & Dr.Swamy's home was attacked right after the state reduced his security. His daughter Suhasini Haider was alone in the house and had men shouting slogans in favour of their gods-Rahul & Sonia- barge in after throwing stones and luckily Dr.Swamy was in the states. I can only imagine what would have happened to him if he was at home. They must have felt real macho after looking to go and bully a 70+ year old man. So it's not just poor Teesta-who likes to lie about trishuls and foetuses-other folks also have security anxiety!
//The fact of your thinking for yourself still eludes me.// Not surprising. Everyone's thoughts elude you. You live on BS mountain. //Well, in 2002, the Muslims of the force were confined to police stations, and the 10 per cent figure is a reflection of an overall Gujarati reluctance to join the police. Why doesn’t Madhu Purnima Kishwar ask of this state, so given to patriotism, how many Gujarati soldiers have died defending Indian borders? // Kutchis are tough. Extremely tough! And I don't use the term extreme that often. In any case there is a fundamental flaw here that the muslim over there in gujarat, is ALSO gujarati!! They didn't appear one day out of somewhere! Ahmedabad was ruled by hindu AND muslim rajputs. Jinnah was gujarati too.Gujarati is a language, an ethnicity and well, a linguistic ethnicity hence. Irfan Pathan and Munaf Patel are Gujarati. //If you are a liberal or a libertan or whatever, I am not that. I think Ayn Rand is junk. And I would have thought better of economic freedom US style --but what about US farm subsidies which cause so much heart burns everywhere? // Yes, you don't bother do you.Economic freedom and a nation state's prosperity doesn't matter to you.'US style' is wrong.Hong Kong style, or Singapore style or even New Zealand/Australia style would be more appropriate.The US is not nearly as free as it used to be.Anyway how does Ayn Rand get into the discussion?She doesn't really represent libertarianism(maybe slightly) & didn't like being called one either. I bet you haven't even read her. Much better than most collectivists who abuse the term liberal, the classical interpretations of which I have explained earlier.
And what about the US style farm subsidies? What exactly are you pointing at within the larger US farm subsidies based discussion? //It does not need any fearlessness to take on seculars. We don't kill. FYI Teesta has round the clock security on the orders of Supreme court.// Ahem....Stalin? Pol Pot? Mao? No? Good job embarassing yourself! Communist cadres in India, with their OVERT distorted indian style 'secularism', bashing up any dissenting voice.Their perpetuation of poverty didn't 'kill' people? Those hungry, miserable poor people who , well, stayed exactly where they were for decades? And really, what is the meaning of that term? A bunch of neanderthals have hijacked that wonderfully noble term and claim it as their own in India. Indian style secularism is not secularism at all. In any case, those who aren't 'religous' in the classical sense and claim secularism in India as their copyright have unleashed enough violence for everyone to see. It is the state that is their omnipotent interventionist god.Just like the loons on the right do what they do for god, the loons on the left kill for power and to hold on the state.Indira Gandhi's death triggered violence because she had become god & was being compared with the pauranik depictions of 'God' in the feminine. How do you manage to score own goals so often? Tch Tch!!
//I have never lived in Gujarat though I have Gujarati friends. Are there not enough good schools there? In my housing society there are many children whose parents are in Gujarat, but are staying with relatives to study in Mumbai schools.// This is a cheapshot but I can handle it. I was raised very very lower middle class so no, I didn't get to go to wonderful schools.I studied social studies in Hindi medium for 3 years because that particular central government school had no english language speaking or understanding teachers(including the 'english' teachers who would teach english in hindi for all practical purposes). Boo Hoo!! I however worked harder than most lazy,flabby/fat upper/upper middle class children & now frequent their 'areas' and 'hotspots'. I'll tell you this, gujaratis are nicer & smell much better than that armpit of a city called Mumbai. I'm not too tall at 6 ft 2 but Mumbai seems like Liliput nagar to me.A smelly,crowded version of it where I can't spread my arms without knocking a couple of midgets(mental & physical) down.last time I went, it smelt like the entire city farted constantly. By the time the next state elections happen in Gujarat, quite a few top economists believe it may either overtake or close down the gap with maharashtra & kerala in per capita income, which is a necessary part of improving living standard and prosperity. Which is shameful for states as long-industrialised and rich in resouces as Maharashtra and kerala respectively. The Mormons in the states had nothing.They had squat. Tumbleweed! They are some of the most prosperous people there now.They were discriminated against by the rest and had to go to the end of civilisation in north america to live.They civilised that place. The UK(except wales) isn't that resource rich either.Some people are more pragmatic, think differently and move ahead.Gujarat will be India's most prosperous large state.The people will ensure than more than the government. And let me tell you this, the schools & colleges are getting pretty good too now. You may apply for a PHD in 'Logical Consistency'!! Regards
Ms. Saroja,
I have been reading your posts since many days and was highly impressed by your
knowledge and the way you stood up almost single handedly against many other
regulars of this website who have opposing views than yours. However, your views
on Gujaratis being non patriot becuase of thier lack or less representation in army
is completely off the mark. Even if not even one Gujarati joins the army, does that
make them less patriot than others? Is only joining the army and fighting at the borders
makes one patriot. Is being a businessman not patriotic. They create
jobs, make money, pay taxes to the government who use that money to build the
nation. I had lot of respect for you but your this view about Gujaratis - is it because you
hate Modi - has broought that respect a notch lower .
Do you agree with the various quotes you have pasted
the 10 per cent figure is a reflection of an overall Gujarati reluctance to join the police
Are Gujarati Muslims different from others? If the administration could fill 90% of the vacancies with Hindus, why not 91 or 92? Can you produce any figures to show that not enough Hindus applied for the police, forcing the administration to resort to recruitment of Muslims?
Why doesn’t Madhu Purnima Kishwar ask of this state, so given to patriotism, how many Gujarati soldiers have died defending Indian borders?
The implication is that Gujaratis are somehow lesser Indians, less patriotic and more cowardly than others. Do you agree with Hartosh Bal?
army officials cite only strictly off the record, is that Gujaratis, unlike some other Indian groups, are not a martial race
If a person is unwilling to be quoted he is a coward. The "martial race" theory has long been discredited. It was a British policy to restrict recruitment to only those sections who were deemed to be supportive of British Raj. Ask any army officer you know.
Incidentally, you are guilty of the same intellectual dishonesty of which you accuse Madhu Kishwar by omitting key elements of the article viz. comments of the interviewee and producing some unnamed journalist's quotes from some unnamed army official. Here are some of the missing answers from a named army officer - Gen Shankar Prasad.
What about Gujarat? Gujarat is well-represented in the army. They have a fixed percentage in the Maratha, Grenadiers, Guards, Mahar and other regiments. But is it true that Gujaratis, considered a business community, dont generally want to join the army? I dont think so. The martial race concept was introduced by the British. The army does not believe in it. What it requires to join the troops is a tenth- standard certificate and prescribed physical standards. In the 33-week-long training that we give, we make sure the recruit becomes martial. But what about the percentage? Yes, that can be raised.
What about Gujarat? Gujarat is well-represented in the army. They have a fixed percentage in the Maratha, Grenadiers, Guards, Mahar and other regiments.
But is it true that Gujaratis, considered a business community, dont generally want to join the army? I dont think so. The martial race concept was introduced by the British. The army does not believe in it. What it requires to join the troops is a tenth- standard certificate and prescribed physical standards. In the 33-week-long training that we give, we make sure the recruit becomes martial.
But what about the percentage? Yes, that can be raised.
Now to some of the other issues which your unnamed journalist has raised and you have seen fit to share with us
Army sources said Gujaratis in the army are known for their high rate of desertions and AWOL (absence without leave).
Wow. I didn't know the army maintained such statewise statistics. Can you enighten us on the comparative rate of such offenders for Gujarati's vis-a-vis say Tamilians and Punjabis.
Also, according to army officials, those Gujaratis who do not desert early usually seek retirement after completing the 15 to 18-year mandatory period that entitles a service man to benefits.
Wow again. In the unlikely event that a Gujarati does not desert, he somwhow manages to complete his engagement and take an honourable discharge.
Most seek retirement at the earliest to enjoy re-employment benefits provided by the state governments and the private sector. At the same time, they enjoy an ex-servicemans benefits, said an official.
Unlike other government servants who can coast at public expense till they are 60, jawans are thrown out after 15 years, at the age of 35 or soon thereafter and left to fend for themselves. Now someone who decides to jump before being thrown overboard is being condemned for this. Does it mean that non-Gujarati soldiers are so incompetent that they cling to their sarkari job till the day they are evicted?
I am afraid that the comments of the unnamed journalist who quotes unnamed sources is defamatory of Gujaratis in general. Does it not attract the provisions of some section of the IPC or the other?
While on the subject of martial races are you aware that not very long ago the non officer cadre of Indian merchant ships was exclusively demarcated by region and religion. All seamen (deck crew) were Gujarati Hindus, engine crew were Konkani Muslims and saloon crew (cooks and stewards) were Goan/Mangalorean Catholics. Does that mean that the rest of India were the non-nautical races and were unable or unwilling to work on ships? It may astound you to know that today, ships are manned by people from all over India including non coastal states.
I must admit I am extremely disappointed that someone of your obvious erudition has chosen to rebut Madhu Kishwar's facts with such bogus quotes. If nothing else, they expose the biases of the authors.
>> Btw are you a lawyer?
No. I actually graduated in Physics :-) Which is one reason I had brought up your background in earlier threads. I was saddened by the lack of logic and consistency in your posts.
Anyway, before I respond to your post quoting "unnamed sources" speaking off the record, would like to know YOUR position. Do you agree with these "sources"? Do you also agree with Bal, regarding patriotism being measured by the number of people who died while defending the country, and other things he mentions (like Muslims amongst the police being confined to the stations)?
Also, is your post 169 your entire response to my posts 164 and 167, or do you have anything to add? Those were pretty voluminous posts, talking about lot of things. While you don't have to respond, I just want to clarify that you are not chickening out of the discussion by responding to a part of the discussion, and that too, by just quoting some unnamed sources, and not revealing YOUR position on the issue. Don't hide behind Bals and unnamed sources or rebuttals from Teesta.
Let us know what YOU think about the issues? Do you think it was okay for Teesta to take money from Congress, and if so, how is Kishwar dishonest in mentioning it (and other things, that you chose to ignore).
Once I hear from you, I'll respond to 169, and hopefully, to YOUR responses to my posts.
>>>Madhu Kishwar brings her liberal credentials to right wing causes.
That only raises the bar for seculars. Not really a bad thing is it?
>>>I wonder if you shall even answer this post, and if you shall be honest about it, or try to divert the issue on a tangent.
It is fun answering your posts if only to get in response the out of the world superb logic of yours. I love expressions of yours like"sickulars and other assorted anti nationals".
Btw are you a lawyer?
Now answer to your queries and hope you keep your reputation with your response --
......army officials cite only strictly off the record, is that Gujaratis, unlike some other Indian groups, are not a martial race but mainly businessmen. Army sources said Gujaratis in the army are known for their high rate of desertions and AWOL (absence without leave). Also, according to army officials, those Gujaratis who do not desert early usually seek retirement after completing the 15 to 18-year mandatory period that entitles a service man to benefits. Most seek retirement at the earliest to enjoy re-employment benefits provided by the state governments and the private sector. At the same time, they enjoy an ex-servicemans benefits, said an official.
......army officials cite only strictly off the record, is that Gujaratis, unlike some other Indian groups, are not a martial race but mainly businessmen.
www.mid-day.com/news/2004/feb/76160.htm
The above quotes are off the record whatever that means.Here is another source maintaining the underrepresentation of Gujaratis, tamils etc in army without giving any motives for that escapefromindia.wordpress.com/2007/03/06/muslims-in-the-indian-army-only-2/
Madhu Kishwar brings her liberal credentials to right wing causes. That undermines her previous supporters.
>> Since I cannot think for myself, I shall cut-paste --- Hartosh Bal in Open
The deception of the sickulars is growing with their desperation.
Quoting or cut-pasting each other is not evidence.
Bal makes stupid statements, and worse, tries to divide the army too in regionalism. Let's examine some of his stupidities
>> Well, in 2002, the Muslims of the force were confined to police stations
So he doesn't deny Kishwar's figures. He doesn't bother to find out the percentage of Muslims in the force in 2002, to suggest that there might not have been any increase during Modi's time (I have no idea). He doesn't give any evidence that Muslims were asked to restrict themselves to stations, and only Hindus were out. He utters some stupidities, and you faithfully reproduce them.
>> and the 10 per cent figure is a reflection of an overall Gujarati reluctance to join the police
And on what basis does Bal make this stupid assertion. Why would Gujaratis be reluctant to join the police compared to other places? Does it pay less, is it more dangerous, are there better avenues available in Gujarat that are not in other states (but saying that would be a saying something nice about the state, which is anathema to him), is there less corruption (again, positive thing). He gives no data, no evidence, no logic or arguments. Just a stupid assertion.
>> Why doesn’t Madhu Purnima Kishwar ask of this state, so given to patriotism, how many Gujarati soldiers have died defending Indian borders?
He wants Kishwar to be as stupid as him? Only seculars can do that job, by cutting/pasting his filth.
What is the percentage of Gujarati soldiers in the army? If it is less than their percentage of population, what are the reasons? How many are in conflict zones? If less, why? Is Modi responsible for this assignment? Have any Gujaratis turned down an order to serve in conflict zones, or proven unworthy?
How many Gujaratis does Bal want to die before he gives them his certificate of patriotism? How about you? What do you think is a fair number, before you allow them to make claims to patriotism.
And while you are at it, do you want to limit your answer to Gujaratis in general, or drill down to religion and caste based data? Do we start insisting that unless enough members of a community die while defending the country, they can't claim to be patriotic. Will you make the same demands of Muslims?
I wonder if you shall even answer this post, and if you shall be honest about it, or try to divert the issue on a tangent.
Since I cannot think for myself, I shall cut-paste --- Hartosh Bal in Open
Which is why, when Madhu Purnima Kishwar argues in Outlook (‘The Kettle Hits Back’ , issue dated 25–31 December 2012) that ‘anti-Modi protestors run their rabid campaigns blindfolded’, she cherry-picks data to make her point. For example, she writes, ‘Recently, The Times of India reported that Gujarat with a nine per cent Muslim population has in its police stations a law-keeping force, 10 per cent of which is Muslim. No other state matches this figure. If this is not proof of inclusive governance, what is?’ Well, in 2002, the Muslims of the force were confined to police stations, and the 10 per cent figure is a reflection of an overall Gujarati reluctance to join the police. Why doesn’t Madhu Purnima Kishwar ask of this state, so given to patriotism, how many Gujarati soldiers have died defending Indian borders?
Which is why, when Madhu Purnima Kishwar argues in Outlook (‘The Kettle Hits Back’ , issue dated 25–31 December 2012) that ‘anti-Modi protestors run their rabid campaigns blindfolded’, she cherry-picks data to make her point. For example, she writes, ‘Recently, The Times of India reported that Gujarat with a nine per cent Muslim population has in its police stations a law-keeping force, 10 per cent of which is Muslim. No other state matches this figure. If this is not proof of inclusive governance, what is?’
Well, in 2002, the Muslims of the force were confined to police stations, and the 10 per cent figure is a reflection of an overall Gujarati reluctance to join the police. Why doesn’t Madhu Purnima Kishwar ask of this state, so given to patriotism, how many Gujarati soldiers have died defending Indian borders?
www.openthemagazine.com/article/nation/those-who-do-not-want-to-bury-modi
>>I also like doing something that may have eluded you-Thinking for myself.
The fact of your thinking for yourself still eludes me.
>>CM Modi has been acquitted
Really? When was he tried?
>>If you had any credibility at all over here, say goodbye to it with that post.
I need certification from a Modi apologist? If you are so sure of your position, why not post under your name so that after a couple of years you can look back at your immortal idiocy?I am not the one to run away from facing uncomfortable facts. Fact is justice has come for the first time on such a scale because of activists and a section of our state still functioning.
And it is not Teesta only. What about Jan Sangharsh Morcha of Mukul and Nirjhari Sinha, whose work was crucial in nailing down Maya Kodnani? Or Ashish Khetan's sting operations?
It does not need any fearlessness to take on seculars. We don't kill. FYI Teesta has round the clock security on the orders of Supreme court.
If you are a liberal or a libertan or whatever, I am not that. I think Ayn Rand is junk. And I would have thought better of economic freedom US style --but what about US farm subsidies which cause so much heart burns everywhere?
I have never lived in Gujarat though I have Gujarati friends. Are there not enough good schools there? In my housing society there are many children whose parents are in Gujarat, but are staying with relatives to study in Mumbai schools.
>> Was the money misused for any other purpose than for which it was sought
This is what Kishwar wrote
The most unforgivable crime attributed to Modi is that he orchestrated the “ethnic cleansing” of Muslims in 2002. He is alleged to be a man with a fascist mindset with Muslims of Gujarat supposedly living as an endangered minority in perpetual fear and insecurity. Interestingly this charge is most loudly and aggressively levelled by NGO activists who have received massive support—financial material and political form the Congress party and its governments as well as powerful international donor agencies.
She never suggested that the money was used for some purpose other than what it was sought for. Why are you suggesting that she did? Isn't it dishonest on your part?
Moreover, Kishwar is saying much more. She is suggesting other forms of support too from Congress, something you are completely glossing over. One small example is someone like Harsh Mander getting selected to NAC.
Sikand, another "liberal", had admitted that the NGO industry had been an extremely "rewarding career" for him and many others of his ilk. Kishwar is saying the same. You are making spurious charges against her, and blaming her for things she clearly never said. Frankly, you are coming across as a dishonest liar, something expected out of Anwaars and other assorted jehadis. Had expected better of you.
>> Manushi was entirely run on donations from well wishers and subscriptions. Now it has folded up
Don't know what your point is. Some businesses succeed, while others fail, for a variety of reasons. I don't know if Manushi's fold up was due to financial reasons, and if so, what could have been done to prevent it. Do you suggest she should have compromised with her basic principles to continue it?
>> Has their position been compromised wrt Congress, CPI, CPM etc ?
You and I can have different opinions on it. I feel that, compared to BJP, she is extremely soft on these parties. Do you believe otherwise?
Whether you agree with me or not, there is no way for me to prove that her softness is due to ideological alignment, intellectual dishonesty, or monetary and political support. Nor does it matter. The fact is that she took money from the political opponents of BJP to run a series of ads against it. Any halfway honest person would see it as a conflict of interest.
RSM,
I did not have to hunt around too much.
" it was also an opportunity for me as the editor of an Urdu newspaper to ask him questions that millions of Indians, Hindus and Muslims, have about Modi. When I asked Modi about his blood-stained record of 2002, he showed no remorse, tried to avoid the realities and gave answers that I consider lies. Answers, which, as I see them, reveal something about the man and his ideas. I asked him whether he wanted to turn India into a Hindu Rashtra and he never said ‘no’. He evaded the question by talking about his dream of a strong India. We need to read both the silences and evasions, not just the answers on tape. Modi might escape the courts of law, but he won’t get bail in the court of history. When I raised the question of reservation for the poor Muslims of India in government jobs and educational institutions, Modi again showed his true colours, dismissing the idea as “very dangerous”.
"In my build-up to speaking more directly about the question of reservation for Muslims, I used the analogy of a family where one child is weak and, therefore, a laggard. “Shouldn’t the family give some special attention to the child who is left behind for a variety of reasons?” I asked. Modi’s response is revealing. He understood it as a reference to Muslims and while I had referred to a “weak child”, he turned the reference into a “mentally sick child”. The phrase he used in his reply was, “Maan lijiye ek zehni taur pe kamzor bachcha hai.” That reveals how Modi views Muslims; it doesn’t promote him. Anyone who reads the text of my interview carefully or listens to the audio clip can hear those words."
www.openthemagazine.com/article/nation/no-regrets-about-interviewing-modi
"Claiming that he strongly objects to any statement to the effect that what happened in 1984 in Delhi can be used to absolve events elsewhere, he promptly goes on to compare and contrast his response with what happened in Delhi under the Congress in 1984. While correctly indicting the Congress for what happened then (it is difficult for anyone to say a word in the Congress’ defence for the murder carried out by its cadres), he uses this to try and whitewash his own failings.
"Some of his replies are clearly evasive, others are a brazen denial of the truth. All of course refer to himself in the third person. While defending the decision to transport the bodies of those who died in Godhra to Ahmedabad, he evades the crucial issue of why curfew was imposed only after funeral processions had wound their way through town, stoking tension. As for the selective and targeted killing of Muslims and the burning and loot of Muslim property, Modi goes on to deny that such a thing ever happened. Maybe he should once again revisit what happened at the Gulbarg society or for that matter in numerous other incidents in the city and the state. But then it is not as if he does not know this.
Expectedly, he repeatedly uses the SIT report prepared under directions of the Supreme Court in his defence. The tone and tenor of the report is directed towards minimising the impact of what happened, at times going beyond the facts to offer Modi a clean chit. This is now being used by Modi with great skill to make his case.
"It is only towards the end of the interview that the pretension drops. Claiming that secularism is intrinsic to this country, he says at one time, Afghanistan, Bangladesh and Pakistan were also part of this secular ethos but when the ‘jamat’ (community) to whom secularism comes naturally declined in numbers, these areas lost their tradition of secularism. In India, there is no such fear because the jamat that believes in secularism is well entrenched. The implications need not be spelt out, but it is clear from what follows when he blatantly tells Siddqui, “You people find your mouth watering today, it is because the combined number of Muslims in Pakistan, Bangladesh and Afghanistan can come together, and with the help of Indian Muslims, create tension in India. This is motive for the new movement for Akhand Bharat in Pakistan.” "
www.openthemagazine.com/article/nation/in-fact-people-should-ask-forgiveness-of-modi
//I can give some perspectives to drip irrigation and subsidies there of in TN// You need to rethink the meaning of the term liberal before applying it to yourself. Where will the noble 'subsidies' , money, come from? What impact will that have on the larger economy? Can we even afford european style policies when we are a miserably poor country? And also explain why we don't have drought resistance breeding or perhaps more imp, genetic engineering? In terms of economic freedom, Gujarat in 2012 is second to none. I actually lived in Kutch pre Modi. Travelled around to different parts of the state. I have been there since & around the different parts of the state too. I know a little bit more than you here, madam!! A 'liberal' understands the implications of 'liberty'.They understand that there is NO political freedom without economic freedom & max free enterprise. I am reasonably aware of your economic gyaan levels, so let me give you a small,simple 60 second video to watch-http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66PZv7Vtw3I Liberals, put Freedom(Capital F) above everything, including 'Equality'! Except on a couple of issues I am largely liberal. Real Liberal!! I have always felt & stated BEFORE Madhu Kishwar wrote this article that I admired fearless women like her. I also felt that she was a libertarian. Well, apparently she is! Swaminathan Aiyar is a libertarian and even he takes a more balanced, nuanced stand on Modi than most people in the media who refer to themselves as liberal. This doesn't mean he is a Modi lover. Certainly not! But he is fine with giving credit where it's due! Along with 'secular', liberal and progressive are the most misused terms in Indian politics today. Every tom,dick and harry use these words to describe themselves without reading about their respective history and their significance in the indian context(which can often be different to the traditional western meaning)
//I may not particularly agree with your putting yourself with "us".// Really? And you read the article? If you agree with that article you are much smarter than I thought. Now if only you could think a litle harder more often you could become a real liberal that is inherently worried about large statism. Even so, most indians do not identify with that line of thinking. //Manushi was entirely run on donations from well wishers and subscriptions. Now it has folded up. * Has their position been compromised wrt Congress, CPI, CPM etc ? // If you had any credibility at all over here, say goodbye to it with that post. //hear a denoement in a couple of months from Madhu Kishwar herself because you will give credence to her.Or hear it from the courts.// Nah, I don't have blind faith in either, even though we have to go along with the courts as law abiding citizens. Which is exactly the primary point of this article. We can't have street justice and witch-hunts & CM Modi has been acquitted. I also like doing something that may have eluded you-Thinking for myself.
#155 R.Saroja: So what? //Till I read Madhu Kishwar's write up in Outlook, I did not even link up her opposition to NBA with Modi// Tch Tch SMH!! Everything that you highlighted in that post, has been taken into account & adhered to. Pathetic that you disown and dump people like a hot potato for objectively analysis. Really poor! We all don't become Modi fans by acknowleding the immense stupidity, ifnot naivete of the NBA.
RSM >>>>and I thought his interview was extremely damning of Modi
>What part?
I will see if I can get a transcript/translation. Or I will do one and post a link to it even if it takes me the rest of the night.
Just Joe King --#146 R.Saroja: //Look around, you will see very many// Did you even read the link I put up in that post? There is a reason why I put that link up there right next to the conclusion you felt the need to comment upon. Most Indians would & indeed do, have a very different kind of economic ideology!
I did not feel any beed to comment on Madhu Kishwar's ET article because I entirely agree with her. I may not particularly agree with your putting yourself with "us".
As for her being dishonest, perhaps a bit of self-projectuon on your part? This is a bit like all those SIT lovers who suddenly dumped the same SIT like a hot potato, when they gave CM Modi a clean chit. Really, people don't become mass-murderers because they don't seem to fit your ideology!
I have only called dishonest her attack on attackers of Modi (NGOs working with riot victims etc). The rest of the article is thought provoking. Since I have some rural/agricultural background, I can give some perspectives to drip irrigation and subsidies there of in TN. BT cotton I thought was well known. There were issues with the cotton seeds being toxic while used as cattle feed. But there is hardly any coverage of Agriculture in English media, though we are an agricultural country.
As far mass murders etc, hear a denoement in a couple of months from Madhu Kishwar herself because you will give credence to her.Or hear it from the courts.
>>> How is Kishwar dishonest for highlighting it?
*Was the money misused for any other purpose than for which it was sought?
* Manushi was entirely run on donations from well wishers and subscriptions. Now it has folded up.
* Has their position been compromised wrt Congress, CPI, CPM etc ?
#146 R.Saroja: //Look around, you will see very many// Did you even read the link I put up in that post? There is a reason why I put that link up there right next to the conclusion you felt the need to comment upon. Most Indians would & indeed do, have a very different kind of economic ideology! As for her being dishonest, perhaps a bit of self-projectuon on your part? This is a bit like all those SIT lovers who suddenly dumped the same SIT like a hot potato, when they gave CM Modi a clean chit. Really, people don't become mass-murderers because they don't seem to fit your ideology!
RSM >>
>>But there are points in this write up which are plain dishonest and I have pointed them out. That her opposition to NBA was long before Modi? This is your definition of dishonesty?
>>But there are points in this write up which are plain dishonest and I have pointed them out.
That her opposition to NBA was long before Modi? This is your definition of dishonesty?
Till I read Madhu Kishwar's write up in Outlook, I did not even link up her opposition to NBA with Modi. Looking back, I realise that her opposition to NBA was strong only in 2000s. This is what she had written in 2000 (before Modi) --
Sardar Sarovar Project which has been embroiled in a fiery controversy for more than a decade. Opinion is sharply divided. The pro-Dam lobby projects it as a big boon whereas the anti-Dam group has dubbed it as a monumental disaster. Those who have tried to take more balanced or nuanced positions based on the extensive information now available have been effectively marginalized. Even the Supreme Court has failed to resolve the stalemate because the Court can at best grant temporary stay orders but is not in a position to terminate construction of the dam. Numerous international agencies have got involved in the anti-Dam Campaign, leading to still greater confusion and polarization. The two sides have hurled endless accusations through the press but have seldom been brought together to work out a plausible solution except through bureaucratic committees where each side reiterates its position and charges. The stalemate however continues. Despite extensive media coverage of the issue, even highly educated, technically qualified people have been unable to figure out whose claims are more genuine—the environmental concerns, or whether the relief and rehabilitation packages being offered are adequate or unjust. In fact, even journalists are divided along pro-dam and anti-dam lines. Therefore, the coverage has been equally polarized. Articles in the media can be neatly divided into pro NBA (Narmada Bachao Andolan) and pro-SSP (Sardar Sarovar Project) positions.
And she continues in her article --
Those who wish to be counted among the problem solvers of India need to: * Keep an open mind, especially with regard to facts, no matter how convinced one is about the correctness of one’s own position.
*One must guard against the tendency to simply trash and reject outright the views of those who are taking an opposing position.
*Avoid the temptation to stick to or seek out only like minded people for debate and discussion.
*Be willing to concede the legitimate grievances of even those they consider political opponents. It is only when one displays the ability to distinguish between legitimate and illegitimate grievances and has the political courage to accede to the legitimate demands of even the most unreasonable groups, that one earns the moral right to take a firm, unyielding stance against their unreasonable demands. *Have a realistic appreciation of what solutions can actually be carried through while bridging the gap between conflicting groups.
Her 2006 position on NBA is here --www.indianexpress.com/news/twenty-years-on-the-banks-of-the-narmada/2887 Again Modi does not figure here.
>> The funding from Congress,CPI, CPM and about 10 prominent individuals was over an ad campaign in 1999 and an one time one
So you also agree that they received funds.
How is Kishwar dishonest for highlighting it? To me, it seems that YOU are the one who is dishonest in blaming her for mentioning it.
Regarding your post against Pioneer, I don't see what that has to do with the article. Kishwar is not accusing Teesta or CJP of violating FCRA. The fight between CJP/Teesta and Pioneer/Mitra is a separate issue, that can be discussed in another thread. How is it relevant to Kishwar's article, or your allegations of dishonesty against her?
Again, I see it as a deliberate, dishonest attempt by you to obfuscate the issue.
You made spurious allegations against Kishwar, and now are unable to back them up, leading you to bring in entirely unrelated issues in the discussion. Was hoping to see some honesty from you.
>> "malicious campaign once again launched by the Pioneer..."
By now both the CJP and Teesta Setalvad must be quite used to Pioneer's malicious campaigns.
The Citizens for Justice and Peace (CJP), a Mumbai based registered trust strongly rebuts the malicious campaign once again launched by the Pioneer a newspaper edited by Rajya Sabha Member of Parliament of the Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP), Chandan Mitra. In a story laced with outright falsehoods the newspaper has alleged that the CJP has violated the law, namely the Foreign Contribution Regulation Act (FCRA). Since we work in the public domain we place the following facts for your information while emphasising that what the Pioneer has been resorting to since 2010 constitutes unprofessional journalism: not once were we contacted before this or other stories was carried. In October 2010 we had through our lawyers issued a legal notice to the newspaper (pasted below) following a spate of articles which visibly toned down that newspaper’s coverage after the notice. This time too legal action will follow. The CJP has not violated any law or rule and has collected donations for its primarily legal rights work from national and international sources through lawful means. The Pioneer deliberately picks out CJP’s Secretary Teesta Setalvad for its remarks on violations when it is not her but a Board of Trustees that have been functioning collectively and supporting this work. Teesta is deliberately being projected as recipient with malicious intent. CJP provides legitimate legal aid to help victims of mass crimes to access justice, a Constitutional mandate supported by international human rights standards. Bringing perpetrators of violence to justice – is being deliberately dubbed as mala fide activity. “Seeking donations in the name of helping riot victims” is a vague generalization. Different donors made contributions for specific purposes and not something as vague as “helping riot victims”. The donations received by CJP were for two very specific objectives: (1) Legal Aid to victims of the mass crimes: We emphatically state that the foreign contributions received by CJP for legal aid were accordingly earmarked and used for that very purpose. (2) Aid for Two Ambulances for Mumbai City: In the wake of the 26/11 terror attack on Mumbai, a need was felt for a citizens’ initiative to augment the existing ambulance service in Mumbai. This was in view of the fact that very many people who received bullet injuries at the Chatrapati Shivaji Terminus simply bled to death because they were not enough ambulances to rush the injured to hospitals. We again emphatically state that the foreign contributions received by CJP for legal aid were accordingly earmarked and used for that very purpose. Two ambulances purchased with such contributions have been in service in Mumbai since 2009. Donations from international music personalities and groups including Jethro Tull through his manager Ian Anderson, Naomi Campbell, Chatwals (through the IMG Lakme group) were received to run these two ambulances that even today run in Mumbai. (3) The foreign contribution received from Ford Foundation was for “Peace building activities in Gujarat & Maharashtra”. We affirm that the money was earmarked and utilized accordingly. It was a grant received for a period of 3 years, received in three annual instalments after submission and approval by Ford Foundation of annual narrative and financial reports.Teesta Setalvad and Javed Anand are only two of the 6 trustees of Sabrang Trust. Since 2010, the United Nations Voluntary Fund for Victims of Torture (UNVFT) has been supporting our legal work and the amount received from them has been utilized for legal aid alone as per the itemized budget approved by UNVFVT (United Nations Voluntary Fund for Victims of Torture). It is a matter of great pride for CJP that its legal efforts to bring justice to the victims of the communal carnage in Gujarat is supported by UN agency and administered by the United Nations Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights, Geneva. The CJP would like to emphasise that the accounts of both CJP and Sabrang Trust are audited annually within the stipulated time every financial year and the audited accounts along with the auditor’s report are submitted regularly in the prescribed format to the Income Tax Department, the Charity Commissioner’s Office and the FCRA department of the Union ministry of Home Affairs.
#150 Whatsinaname
>> But there are points in this write up which are plain dishonest and I have pointed them out And you were wrong.www.outlookindia.com/feedbacks.aspx >> The funding is in the public domain and is no secret Kishwar never said it's secret. She said they received funds, they agree they received funds, you agree they received funds. It seems to me that everyone agrees that Teesta and Javed received funds from foreign donors and Congress. One can disagree whether it was ethical for them to receive these while talking against Modi, but how does stating a fact that everyone agrees on disgrace Kishwar? Don't know about you or Phoolka, but I would find it crude to accept money from the perpetrators of 84, while claiming to fight communal violence, particularly of the state sponsored variety.
>> But there are points in this write up which are plain dishonest and I have pointed them out
And you were wrong.www.outlookindia.com/feedbacks.aspx
>> The funding is in the public domain and is no secret
Kishwar never said it's secret. She said they received funds, they agree they received funds, you agree they received funds.
It seems to me that everyone agrees that Teesta and Javed received funds from foreign donors and Congress. One can disagree whether it was ethical for them to receive these while talking against Modi, but how does stating a fact that everyone agrees on disgrace Kishwar?
Don't know about you or Phoolka, but I would find it crude to accept money from the perpetrators of 84, while claiming to fight communal violence, particularly of the state sponsored variety.
The funding from Congress,CPI, CPM and about 10 prominent individuals was over an ad campaign in 1999 and an one time one. This was before Modi or Gujarat 2002. From an interview of Teesta Setalvad and Javed Anand --
The 1999 elections saw a new entrant in the political ad war arena. Communalism Combat, a magazine committed to opposing both majority and minority communalism, came out with a flurry of 18 ads pitched against the Sangh Parivar. The ads appeared in publications all over the country... In the 1998 elections NRI groups placed ads in select newspapers like Indian Express, Mahanagar and Combat, asking people to vote for a secular democracy. In the 50th year of Independence also, ad space was used to convey secular messages. With that in mind we approached political parties that are opposed to the BJP ideology..For the first time large sections of what had been the third front were moving in droves to the BJP. This was paralleled by the ominous and dangerous attempt of the BJP trying to communalise the armed forces post-Kargil as they'd done with the police. Sending rakhis to soldiers, draping bodies of martyrs in saffron flags. Till then they'd been operating at the level of society, now they were acting at the level of state as well. Last October Murli Manohar Joshi had the effrontery to prepare a new educational agenda for the nation. It couldn't be carried through because the chief ministers stormed out of that meeting. But UP and Gujarat which had BJP governments have seen the saffronisation of every educational/cultural institution in the last two years. While secular liberals keep hoping they'll get tamed while they're in power in Gujarat, it's become impossible for anyone from a minority community to even express anguish. Not just in cities but in rural areas as well. Not just Muslims but now even Christians are being targetted. A few days ago even as Vajpayee was being sworn in as the new prime minister there was a spate of attacks on Christians in Gujarat. Five-seven incidents in a single day. They've decided to unleash their venom and are doing it. They're getting emboldened all the time. So their talk of postponement of the Hindutva agenda is limited to two-three mosques, the uniform civil code and Article 370 on Kashmir. But as far as targetting of minorities goes it continues. >>What you're saying is that the visible agenda appears to have been postponed but the invisible agenda continues<< It's not even invisible any more. It's blatant if only you look around to see. Unfortunately the media is not supporting us. Reportage is fragmented, exchange of information is fragmented. So things aren't widely known. When I was in UP I was horrified at the kind of saffronisation that's taken place in educational and cultural institutions. In Orissa incidents were unfolding -- the burning down of Rehman and the murder of Father Doss -- even while the election process was on. Let alone the rhetoric of securlarism, even the right to life and property of minorities is under threat. It's against this backdrop that we approached political parties saying we had shared concerns and could offer them three concepts to strategise their electoral approach. The first was providing fact-sheets or backgrounders in three or four areas like dalits, women, a state-wise break-up on threats to life and property of minorities, state level break-up on how much work political parties have put in in the last three years. The second was a media monitor, a daily look at how the media is covering the election from which tips could be drawn for secular political parties, how the BJP was being covered, the kind of issues they were throwing up. Since the BJP was identified as the main enemy we suggested ways for other parties to work out their strategies. And the third concept was the ad campaign. >>The ad campaign is reported to have cost approximately 1.5 crores. Who funded it?<< The Congress, CPI, CPM and about ten prominent individuals. >>Don't you think accepting money from political parties compromises your independence?<< We're quite certain it will not. And we're not just saying this in conversation but in the next issue of Communalism Combat we're openly telling our readers what we've done and why. Not just that the campaign happened but the whole process. Our rationale for linking with the Congress/CPI/CPM to politicallty isolate the BJP. It's a waste of time to speculate on whether we've compromised ideals by associating with the Congress. Only our future issues will prove whether we're becoming soft on the Congress or whether we remain as independent as we've always been.
And you were wrong.
www.outlookindia.com/feedbacks.aspx
>>and I thought his interview was extremely damning of Modi
What part?
>>>Thsi is the untouchability associated with Namo in this nation. Shahid Siddiqui....
I don't know/care about SP's stand. Shahid Siddiqui is a founder member of Muslims for Secular Democracy and I thought his interview was extremely damning of Modi That a section of "seculars" thought that it was supportive of Modi only means that a section of "seculars" is as brainless as that they think they oppose
#144 Just Joe King,
You may carefully read what I have written about Madhu Kishwar in this forum over the past several months. That she is an important thinker and that her style is abrasive.And she has been an important element in my own development and I will never disown that But there are points in this write up which are plain dishonest and I have pointed them out. That shocked me, because that is something new. It is for her to set that right.
I did not trash Madhu Trehan though I did trash Prashant Pandey. I do not think Trehan would have written the same article today, and I have pointed a Newslaundry video where she is countered by Barkha and she seemed to be all ears, you know what I mean? The best of us sometimes lose perspective. I will be very very surprised if she writes something endorsing her earlier stand.
>>She is a genuine liberal. I didn't think there were too many of us!
Look around, you will see very many.
From chaiwalla, running around to serve tea to CM of a State to now PM candidate, a truly inspirational story for the aam admi - the middle class/lower class folk. Leave out those persons who came from privileged backgrounds and put Narendrabhai's story on school textbooks, the students will connect to his situation and look at it within a realistic prism,something they can relate to ....
Along with Kamaraj, the only other leader of this stature from a very humble background is Narendrabhai.
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/opinion/guest-writer/delhi-gang-rape-case-some-important-lessons-from-anti-rape-agitation/articleshow/17761070.cms?intenttarget=no She is a genuine liberal. I didn't think there were too many of us!
>> Madhu Kishwar has become a weatherwane. She will kick you if you are down. She will jump on your bandwagon if you seem to be rising
By contrast, jehadis like you are so consistent in their hate.
Maybe you want Kishwar to be more like you.
Madhu Kishwar has become a weatherwane. She will kick you if you are down. She will jump on your bandwagon if you seem to be rising.
Madhu Kishwar
I am amazed at your intellectual honesty.
It gave me a kind of hope from Journalists and writers.
Great piece of writing
Mere the fact that Modi is being watched on his every action 24/7/365 by a Hostile eavesdropping Media, NGOs, Central Govt, Judiciary, So-Called Intellects & Activists for 10 long years does not bring out anything incriminating against him, is enough to conclude India has finally got that ONE ultra-clean Visionary leader we all were hoping for.
A Whiff of Fresh air in a room full of Filthy Farts by Libtards.
I am amazed at the people who claim to be liberals, sudden disowning of Madhu Kishwar!! I have always felt & stated earlier on past threads on this website as well, that I believed she was a real liberal. I called her a closet libertarian & expressed admiration for her fearlessness, while disagreeing with some of her ideas. However, some fairly regular posters here, who absolutely loved her to bits, have suddenly dumped her like a hot potato. Thsi is the untouchability associated with Namo in this nation. Shahid Siddiqui, Vastanvi(I don't know if I spelt that correctly) & even Amitabh Bachchan. Now it is Madhu Kishwar's turn!
Bowenpalle,
>> "Swami Vivekananda once said : when all human beings convert to one religion, it should be the end of the world. I think it is true of one nation also. We must learn from Pakistan at least. Even stupid teach us a lesson by their downfall."
Good point.
''If those 33% or 35% Hindus had remained in Pakistan , today these Hindus could have made a great difference to Pakistan’s politics, to its education and to its very nature, its culture , its ethos and off course to its economy. Pakis Islam might have become stronger actually.''
B VG Rao
Appreciable and honest views on India and Pak .Thanks
@ CHARAN DEWRY@ 131D/36
After reading many of your comments after many months , I get a feeling that you think as if India can live peacefully or exist much better way if there were no Muslims. May be I am wrong in my impression ; nevertheless I want to write my opinion. India cannot exist without Muslims. You will most probably disagree, I know. In the same manner some two thousand years ago Buddhists , at least some of them , might have thought that India would exist , much better without these orthodox, yajgna performing, animal sacrificing Hindus !!
Pakistan idiots thought that Pakistan would be much better without Hindus and nearly 33% Hindus in Pakistan nearly disappeared. They are now, insignificantly low, just about 2% of Pakistan population. Now Pakistan's existence itself is a big question mark. It may soon end up as another Afghanistan where masses move from one place to another along with their huts , animals and wives !! If those 33% or 35% Hindus had remained in Pakistan , today these Hindus could have made a great difference to Pakistan’s politics, to its education and to its very nature, its culture , its ethos and off course to its economy. Pakis Islam might have become stronger actually.
Now any thinking Pakistani, should repent. One does not need big political philosophers to tell this simple fact to them and yet even today the remaining Hindus are tormented, their girls are abducted, raped , forced to marry but the girls agony do not end here even after embracing Islam. They are finally sold in the houses of prostitutes. Most of them commit suicides. Nazim Sethi, a Pakistani intellectual is saying this on TV ( see YouTube) . So Pakistan has not yet learned as to where it went wrong. It may not do any course correction and its days as a coherent nation is coming to a close.
In this same manner Christian evangelists think and may be Indian Islamic fanatics think independently of each other that only their religion save a human soul. God knows it. But while alive one must not live in hell.
Swami Vivekananda once said : when all human beings convert to one religion, it should be the end of the world. I think it is true of one nation also. We must learn from Pakistan at least. Even stupid teach us a lesson by their downfall.
Anwaar,
[[The general rule is: "What I say is objective and what you say is irrational."]]
By now, we've got used to your focusing on the trivia and ignoring the substance. Thanks for living up to it.
>>Don't worry. He won't!
I know he won't. He will rightfully leave it to Aurangzeb's fan boys.
Dewry,
>> The difference is that MAJORITY of MUSLIMS are FANATICS
Yes, many Muslims are just like you.
<<< Muslim writers and bloggers, including many columnists in Pakistan's newspapers, have been condemning lack of democracy, >>>
The difference is that MAJORITY of MUSLIMS are FANATICS while MAJORITY of Hindus are Secular. Given a FREE CHOICE MUSLIMS will opt for ISLAMIC RULE - may commence with libreral ISLAMIC Laws but gradually will adopt more violent ISLAMISM. PAKISTAN was "conceptualised as a secular country with Muslim majority" and what it is today does is all too evident. Egypt is following on the foot steps of Pakistan and has just taken the first step with the manipulated voting to adopt Islamic Laws. ----------------------------- A MUSLIM can not be ever secular as a MUSLIM has to remain within the limits of strict 7th Century laws to remain a Muslim. While in minority Muslims will demand "SECULARISM & DEMOCRACY" from everyone else but will propmtly impose ISLAMIC LAWS on everyone the moment MUSLIMS become MAJORITY.
Two years after the 74,266 km long irrigation network was to be completed in 2010, only 27 per cent or 19,885 km has been constructed, and extremely few of the field channels that must take water to the fields are in place. In the last two years, less than 300 km of canals have been constructed.
I am not sure whther Open Magazine is worried about project not been completed in 2 years as per targted or what he is worried about Tax payers money?
Mami searching a PSU's website is free it wont you cost anything, atleast you should have done that before posting this long article..
http://www.sardarsarovardam.org/Client/ContentPage.aspx
Request you to do summation of the canal completion in km of all different Branch canal from different part of Gujarat and you can see the figure in km crosses what has been provided by Open Magazine if found incorrect if so much worried about tax payesr money please file RTI and get information. As far as Gujarat is concern it is not worried about completion in 2 years becuase already congress regime had consmed enough time on it. So progress of work is more important and let it get completed as and when time comes it is like first let us appear for exam and then lets talk of grade, based on our performance .
Request you to read para on Rehabilitataion work as well if found the contents are falsified ask missinary Medha Patkar to file case she will do it after all money comes from US only for this groups.
Alakshyendra,
>> There is something called objective and then there is something called irrational.
The general rule is: "What I say is objective and what you say is irrational."
>> Gautier is not required to display 'nice' things about Aurangzeb.
Don't worry. He won't!
Another sickular bashing of the cult of NaMo www.openthemagazine.com/article/nation/the-cult-of-namo
Only when seen in the light of a cult that defies reason does the hype around NaMo’s claims of development make sense. No amount of careful analysis seems to dissuade his supporters that his performance was by no means extraordinary, that rather, the growth of Gujarat during his tenure was comparable to that of states such as Maharashtra and Tamil Nadu where chief ministers had not been so hyped and which had actually done better on human development indicators.
They are even willing to disbelieve the evidence in existence before their eyes. The largest planned disaster in the history of Independent India has been unfolding under NaMo’s regime. The Narmada main canal that flows through the state passes not far from Gandhinagar. It is the largest irrigation canal in the world, and also just a very expensive alternate route for the Narmada water to reach the sea. Ninety per cent of the water in the canal goes waste. Two years after the 74,266 km long irrigation network was to be completed in 2010, only 27 per cent or 19,885 km has been constructed, and extremely few of the field channels that must take water to the fields are in place. In the last two years, less than 300 km of canals have been constructed.
The Sardar Sarovar website places the project’s benefits at Rs 1,600 crore annually by way of higher agricultural production, once it is completed. As a result of an inordinate delay, at least 90 per cent of that money is being lost right now. While losses will reduce as the project nears completion, cost overruns will add up. Even if we expect the project to be ready by 2025, which is an optimistic timeframe, a ballpark estimate would put the cumulative setback at Rs 30,000 crore.
So much for an efficient chief minister. Confronted with this reality, NaMo’s innumerable supporters brush it aside as ‘pseudo-secular propaganda’. Online, an unthinking horde that owes its origin to Shashiranjan Yadav’s work is quick to descend on any such claim, much as it is quick to dismiss any mention of the 2002 riots. This horde claims that NaMo does not discriminate among citizens of Gujarat, and that everyone is a beneficiary of his genius for governance.
It is a disingenuous claim, as is obvious from a visit to NaMo’s Maninagar constituency. In the heart of this constituency, it is easy to spot Millatnagar. This is where the famed roads of Gujarat trail off, where the sewers don’t reach. It also happens to be inhabited by 20,000 Muslims. In his ten years as MLA, Modi has never visited the area even once. Only in the past year or so, after a few Congress Corporators were elected from the area, have residents of Millatnagar seen a glimmer of Gujarat’s much vaunted development. It is no wonder that the entire locality is dotted with Congress flags.
NaMo does discriminate against Muslims. It is just that he often has no way of setting up a power grid that tells a Muslim apart from a Hindu. Observers who visit Gujarat and are impressed by its factories et al are being taken in by ‘development’ as sugarcoating a much harsher reality.
It is a reality that Gujarat seems to have accepted, even applauded.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Accept it, We sickulars have a sense of humour. We don't curse and swear once every two sentences.
Modi Sworn in today-26Dec2012-the siege of delhi for "justice to the rape victim" ends all of a sudden.
If the siege was truly a genuine spontaneous reaction of people, why did it not happen in other cases which were equally heinous? the difference in current situation is that the girl was brutalized in an animalistic fashion. So in case of animalistic brutalization only, the so called "justice mongers" will get out there. For what? "to get justice" and how do they propose to do it? 1. flood all streets of capital 2. create a aura of mass strike 3. protest protest and protest.
But remember the "justice mongers" only are awakened when something happens in delhi. That too when the focus of the entire nation was on Modi's spectacular victory.
"justice mongers" of dehi, ensured that their show in delhi, took away focus from Modi's victory.
If not for the "justice mongers", the media would have been forced to focus on;
1] His victory, the man that he is, that he refused when asked to take up the CM's chair in 2001,
2] that it was he who plotted advani's rath yatra and Murli joshis kashmir to kanya kumari yatra,
3] that he relinquised the post of gujarat bjp org head in 1996, pained by the machinations of shanker singh vaghela,
4] that he took "ajeevan brahmacharya" when he was 17 and went to the himalayas and also travelled to kailash manasarovar and after returning his bag had only an extra set of clothes and photo of his mother.
5] that he was the only politician to have said "minimum government, maximum governance"
6] that his administration has facilitated speedy justice delivery and shortly gujarat intends to achieve a average "2 year" period for all court cases in the state
7] that his administration has built the largest solar park in india, soon to be the worlds largest solar park. that his solar park is attracting greater investment despite central solar park schemes giving higher rates for power generated...
there are so many points to write, the list is endless.
If it wasnt for the "bloody justice mongers of delhi", the media would have been forced to focus on the above achievements. It would have raised modi's stature to such heights, that no one would have the guts to spew any more non-sense against him any more.
But no, the "justice mongers" ensured that focus was shifted from gujarat by their freak show.
Obviously the central government, media-presstitutes and the justice mongers were in this freakshow in a collaborative fashion.
There can be no doubt.
( ) secular-pro terrorists (naksal), Pro zihadi and religious riot marketeers hate Modi because he does not allow their riot industry to function in and from Gujrat. Poor fellows, they have to play their favourite game where they never wanted to, in Assam. No break in regular exercise is allowed!
"In this forum I have seen how much love he inspires in Anwaar who is a Gujarati."
That's because Anwaar Miyan is no Gujarati. He is not even an Indian, not even technically. He is a Muslim first and last.
[[Nor do I expect a Hindutva right winger like you to understand how Muslims feel about Modi.]]
There is something called objective and then there is something called irrational. The Muslim distrust of Modi borders on the paranoid, never mind the fact that Gujarat has a significant Muslim population and many of them are thriving (I'm sure as a Gujju, you know Gujarati Muslims are significantly better off than Muslims elsewhere in India) and the discrimination they face is no more or no less than what they face in the other states, notably Congress-ruled ones which Muslims consider utopia. Why does not one make fuss of the fact that in Congress-ruled Maharashtra, Muslims find it difficult to rent apartments in Mumbai, supposedly the most cosmopolitan city in India? Congress-ruled states have seen some of the worst riots over the years, many of which had more Muslim casualties than what Gujarat witnessed; what is significant to note is that none of them had as many Hindu casualties as Gujarat. Which goes to show that Muslims inflicted significant retaliatory damage (almost a fourth of those killed) or that the police did their job, none of which paints the pseculars' allegations against Modi in a favorable light. Something for you to ponder.
Gautier is not required to display 'nice' things about Aurangzeb just like secular drivel about Modi only focuses on displaying hate for the man.
>> Actually Gautier himself said that he had some material favorable to Aurangzeb but did not display it on account of lack of space in his exhibit.
Moron.
You keep making this stupid statement from time to time, but never bother to think as to why Gautier is obliged to display this material.
It's HIS exhibition. He shall display what HE wants. He is NOT obliged to present a "balanced" picture, just to satisfy your jaundiced, jehadi instincts.
Are Teesta and Arundhati required to write "balanced" articles? If they have the FOE to write and say what they want, why must it be demanded of Gautier to display material that he considers less important, and might bother displaying if he has more space, or not even then.
Aleksyandra,
>> That is honesty for you. Something Islamists will never understand and think is a sign of weakness.
Actually Gautier himself said that he had some material favorable to Aurangzeb but did not display it on account of lack of space in his exhibit. I do not defend Aurangzeb. As I said he was a religious nut. Nor do I expect a Hindutva right winger like you to understand how Muslims feel about Modi. We can leave it at that.
[[Indian Muslims should not think well of him any more than Hindus should think well of Modi.]]
OK, Aurangzeb equals Modi, case closed. Never mind the fact that Aurangzeb destroyed several temples, slaughtered several Hindus, forcibly converted lakhs of Hindus, and reduced the remaining to second-class citizens by imposing Jiziya, a feat that can never be matched by Modi.
[[I once quoted the story of Aurangzeb rebuilding a temple as told by Ram Puniyani in his book, but I do not know if it is true.]]
You couldn't vouch for the authenticity of the story, yet went ahead and posted it. Anyone who knows about Ram Puniyani knows very well the extent to which he would go to defame anything Hindu.
[[It is however true that the anti-Muslim hate pracharak Francois Gautier, who once had an exhibit to defame Aurangzeb, admitted that he did have exhibits which showed Aurangzeb in good light, but could not put them up in his exhibit because he did not have space!]]
That is honesty for you. Something Islamists will never understand and think is a sign of weakness.
"What we should be debating is how coalition politics should be played so that a Mamta Banerjee cannot ruin Railways or a A. Raja cannot loot with impunity."
First of all I am not a great fan of cooalition politics.
I copied that link just to let you know how Nitish is manipulating things that too for what?
Rahul VS Modi is media's debate and their headache to project Rahul as PM but certainly Rahul is not peoples choice.
Jaykumar #115,
In Bihar it is Nitish vs Laloo, in UP, it is SP vs BSP,.. In most states, Congress and BJP are fighting for 3rd and 4th places and we have these endless debates on Rahul vs Modi. What is going to happen is every state will elect credible local leaders, and may be in 2014 new post election alliances will be forged. What we should be debating is how coalition politics should be played so that a Mamta Banerjee cannot ruin Railways or a A. Raja cannot loot with impunity.
"I will settle for Nitish Kumar or some other person who may appear on the scene.Modi or Rahul are no where in the picture."
What is keeping Nitish so busy at present...Read this below article.
http://www.vigilonline.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1782&Itemid=1
"An officer working in the Intelligence Bureau says that the new demographic survey is expected to show that Bihar's Muslim population has increased much more than the national average. That means the caste card will become less effective and obviously, the Modi card will become potent electorally."
#113
There is at least one Indian Muslim who very likely did not love Auragzeb and that was before he brutally and publicly murdered him.
Dara Shikoh.
Ghai,
>> Indian Muslims too love Aurangzeb.
He was a religious nut and more cruel than the kings of that time. Indian Muslims should not think well of him any more than Hindus should think well of Modi. I once quoted the story of Aurangzeb rebuilding a temple as told by Ram Puniyani in his book, but I do not know if it is true. It is however true that the anti-Muslim hate pracharak Francois Gautier, who once had an exhibit to defame Aurangzeb, admitted that he did have exhibits which showed Aurangzeb in good light, but could not put them up in his exhibit because he did not have space!
The biggest cause of trouble in the world today is that the stupid people are so sure about things and the intelligent folks are so full of doubts. - Bertrand Russell
The biggest cause of trouble in the world today is that the stupid people are so sure about things and the intelligent folks are so full of doubts.
- Bertrand Russell
This is bad. It should have been the other way round.
Wait. Then the so-sure--of-themselves would have become stupid and the full-of-doubt ones would have become intelligent. And the whole reversal would have to start again!
Russell was very good at paradoxical thinking. I wonder why he did not point out the paradox of his own thinking. Was he temporarily so sure of himself, before he becalmed himself and became intelligent again?
Conclusion: The trouble with the world will never end! Why, even the world will never end!
So sad, too bad, bye bye - as the Training Sergeant prematurely tells cadet Mahoney says in the movie Police Academy. And it happened to the Mayans too!
a nice article by some Venkatesh on rediff: http://www.rediff.com/news/column/gujarat-election-modi-has-arrived-but-is-india-ready/20121225.htm
This answers the people in Media who are crying all the time that Modi is coming to Delhi. I think that too.
Congress goes down. BJP doesn't make the kill, Buffoons of third front gang up and make the mess, again.
Then there is a chance that people will look for someone to stabilize things for them.
Modi is ready, but is India ready? Not yet.
[[Modi is loved by the saffronites for the same reason that Aurangzeb is loved by Pakistanis.]]
Faruki
You too used to quote a link glorifying Aurangzeb as the link stated that the Kashi Visha Nath Temple was decrated by the Hindu Pujaries who raped an Queen and the Shansah Auranzeb the all mercifull one funded rebuilding the temple being descrated by the Pujaries !
Indian Muslims too love Aurangzeb .Even Secu sarkar has dedicated a Road in Delhi to the memory of Aurangzeb
C'mon now, be honest. You love Aurangzeb too for the plight he reduced Hindus to. It is just that in a forum full of "Hindutvavadis", you'd rather not admit it.
>> We are talking 2000 people....
Typical Ramki argument!
D.L.Narayan
>> doesn't the present Federal Government and its previous avatar, the UPA-1 meet all the criteria suggested by you for "majoritarian dictatorship". No! With the opposition blocking parliamentary proceeddings on a daily basis, the government not even having a majority in the Rajya Sabha, with major government bills getting defeated, and the government having to keep the coalition partners in tandem, it cannot be called majoritarian dictatorship. Happy holidays!
>> How far should we stretch these allegations...
When the Raghavan SIT and the Nanavaty Commission become impassioned defendents of someone they are required to investigate, the allegations will persist.
>>Modi's alleged complicity in a pogrom will prompt ...
This alleged complicity in a 'pogrom' seems to have takers only in the Gujarat riot scavenging industry. Nobody believes such nonsense anymore.
Saroja Mami,
[[In this forum I have seen how much love he inspires in Anwaar who is a Gujarati.]]
If Anwaar is representative of Gujaratis here, will you concede that the overwhelmingly "Hindutvavadi" opinions aired here (which favor Modi as the PM) are representative of all (or at the least most) Indians?
I agree with Just Joe King. Hey secular CON party apologists, whenever you compare the Gujarat 2002 riots with Nazi Genocide of Jews during WW2, get some sense of history. We are talking 2000 people (including 250+ hindus) dead in Guj 2002 riots, VERSUS 6MILLION PLUS , (That is 600 0000 plus) dead jews during Nazi pogroms of WW2.
2000 IS NOT EQUAL TO SIX MILLION BY ANY STRETCH. Unless your arithmetic skills match with International Geninus Katju So if you want real perspective, compare with similar scale of deaths..
Like for example 2000 People who die every year in the Suburban Rail tracks of Mumbai thanks to rank incompetence by those who ran the Railway Ministry in last 65 years, and 50 out of those 65 years were served by ministers who worked for well being of one dynasty over the safety of passengers..
Now do you call every railway minister from 1947 as a Hitler? Please, please answer dear secular CON party apologists ....
>> What do you mean by majoritarian dictatorship? A government without the checks and balances necessary to prevent governmental arbitrariness and excess...Anwaar
>> What do you mean by majoritarian dictatorship?
A government without the checks and balances necessary to prevent governmental arbitrariness and excess...Anwaar
Sir, doesn't the present Federal Government and its previous avatar, the UPA-1 meet all the criteria suggested by you for "majoritarian dictatorship".
Arbitrariness (issuing laws through ordinances instead of legislation, arguing that executive action like approval of FDI in retail is an executive action which does not need to be approved by the Parliament, etc etc): YES Excesses: In maintaining law and order by excessive use of force (Baba Ramdev, anti-rape protestors, against practically every peaceful demonstration): YES
Arbitrariness (issuing laws through ordinances instead of legislation, arguing that executive action like approval of FDI in retail is an executive action which does not need to be approved by the Parliament, etc etc): YES
Excesses: In maintaining law and order by excessive use of force (Baba Ramdev, anti-rape protestors, against practically every peaceful demonstration): YES
Have they not flouted the spirit of democracy by giving precedence to numeric authority over democratic consensus? Earlier, during Vaypayee's premiership, the posts of speaker and deputy speaker, for example used to be shared between the ruling and opposition parties. Important appointments were made on the basis of consensus. If this isn't "majoritarian dictatorship", I do not know what is. Have they ever tried to reach out to the opposition and try to solve problems instead of resorting to their numerical strength, thanks to "efficient political management" of key allies/non-allies like the DMK. SP and BSP?
As they Congress has been saying of late, what matters in a democracy is numbers. Numbers. Majority. The people's role in a democracy, according to the Congress, ends with casting their vote. Whoever gets the right numbers is given a license to assume dictatorship for the next five years. The people can only watch helplessly as they get looted and raped and killed. A monarchy strutting about as a democracy. A real travesty. In our political lexicon, words like democracy and secularism put on grotesque masks and after a while, all that remains is the mask.
Finally, glad to know that my previous make you laugh, even though it was totally unintentional. Laughter is the best medicine especially for Indians who have little cause to laugh and be happy. Season's greetings to you, Anwaar Saheb and to all readers of Outlook and hope that the coming year will see an increase in goodwill, brotherhood and mutual trust. May the Almighty, doesn't matter by what name we refer to God, give the long suffering humanity a break from all the violence and pain that it has gone through for far too long. May we see the dawn of a new harmonious era of peaceful co-existence, for the world in general and for India in particular.
//There goes the "balanced perspective" spin.// What is this article by Madhu Kishwar called, again? Something to do with a kettle! //That is rubbish! Secularism or no secularism, Modi's alleged complicity in a pogrom will prompt some to make that analogy despite differences in dimensions.// Well, it is the 'alleged' in the alleged complicity that I am pointing to and emphasising. How far should we stretch these allegations and how seriously should we take Tehelka stings? The SIT was an angelic wonderful cute little organism until they absolved CM Modi of any involvement in the Gulberg massacre. If you actually read the report, they don't find anything to conclude that he deliberately delayed police action or that he ordered or orchestrated these riots. Non-Muslims died too! Muslims hatemongers also existed in those mobs. This pretence that we are all riot virgins and this was the first and only time a state has miserably failed in efficiently controlling a religious riot, is annoying. The Hitler comparison being thrown around trivialises the horrific crimes against the Jews.That was indeed a genocide. The KP being driven out of the valley was ethnic cleansing. Neither of those two ethnic groups were found post massacre in Kashmir and sections of europe(large).
>>> because CM Modi has been exonerated over and over again of various charges.
There goes the "balanced perspective" spin.
>> In the self-proclaimed Indian 'secularist'(pronounced succularvaadee) world, it is essential for Modi to be seen as an incarnation of Hitler. That is rubbish! Secularism or no secularism, Modi's alleged complicity in a pogrom will prompt some to make that analogy despite differences in dimensions.
In the self-proclaimed Indian 'secularist'(pronounced succularvaadee) world, it is essential for Modi to be seen as an incarnation of Hitler. Also note, Indian secularism basically amounts to calling others communal and claiming a secular character for oneself. I for one, would be happy to see real secularism in this country too. So no, I am not an anti-secularist at all. The whole agenda is sadly only based on the premise that CM Modi either allowed the riots to happen quite 'deliberately' or indeed 'deliberately' ordered & orchestrated them. This sadly doesn't quite work out now because CM Modi has been exonerated over and over again of various charges. There are other areas where we can rightly criticise him but their argument rests on this and only this. Hence, this behaviour will sadly continue and we will continue to see more balanced points of view like Madhu Kishwar's getting drowned out.
Alakshyendra>> Gujaratis have shown how much they love him.
In this forum I have seen how much love he inspires in Anwaar who is a Gujarati.
77D,
Talking about Tehelka is sheer waste of time. Tehelka is just one of the important Paid Media outlets that works for the Nehru-Indira-Rajiv-Sonia dynasty cult. That is it. Anyone who takes Tehelka seriously is someone who worships the dynasty cult daily and thinks that Saint Sonia is the avtar of Mother India and Rahul Baba is the Jesus Christ of 21st century sent to rescue India from distress.
Arun Maheswari >> I always knew - there is not much to chose between the Congress and BJP
So in your world SIX = SIXTY?
In that case, there is nothing to choose btw India and Pakistan as well i guess..
[[A leader should be decisive, able to inspire, make people take pride in what they want to be without being divisive.]]
Modi is nothing if not the above. His rule has been decisive, inspirational and Gujaratis have shown how much they love him. The "taint" of the 2002 riots is something even Gujarat's Muslims do not buy any more going by how they voted for him even in the riot-affected areas.
[[I will settle for Nitish Kumar or some other person who may appear on the scene.Modi or Rahul are no where in the picture.Congress may stand a chance if they settle for someone like PC or Shiela Dikshit.]]
That's your opinion. Rahul is worthless as a politician, Sheila Dikshit maybe a good administrator but corrupt. Only Modi has proved himself as both a good administrator and honest.
No effective opposition in the legislature, no bicameral division of power, constant harrassment of and challenge to the authority of the governor, impeding the appointmnet of lokayukta, subversion of investigative bodies.
You really make every laugh at your comment..Governor about whom you are lecturing is already been investigated by Rajasthan police from court directive, so your Governor is no clean to teach Gujarat a lesson on currpotion by appinting Lokayuktha and get rid of it by one night...
http://www.niticentral.com/2012/12/gujarat-governor-should-immediately-resign.html
You can add one more name M B Shah in the list of Nanavathay and Ragavan for giving clean chit to Modi Govt..
http://www.niticentral.com/2012/10/what-mb-shah-commission-says-about-modi.html
D.L.Narayan,
>> What do you mean by majoritarian dictatorship? A government without the checks and balances necessary to prevent governmental arbitrariness and excess. No effective opposition in the legislature, no bicameral division of power, constant harrassment of and challenge to the authority of the governor, impeding the appointmnet of lokayukta, subversion of investigative bodies.
>> Neither the Nanavaty commission or the Raghavan SIT have performed in a malafide or biased manner.
You make me laugh!
Drewry,
>> In other words WE MUSLIMS are BAD.
Muslim writers and bloggers, including many columnists in Pakistan's newspapers, have been condemning lack of democracy, secularism and free speech in Muslim countries for years. How come you are so ignorant? Or do you know only what the RSS propaganda machine allows you to know?
FedUp #89,
Thanks for the news clip. I am saving it.
"In this forum, one writer DC made an assertion that it was the targetted violence against hindus by Khalistanis that had fuelled hindu anger against Sikhs in Delhi. His post was well liked by others, though as far as I remember, pulling hindu passengers out of bus & killing them in Punjab started much later [after Operation Bluestar: Fedup]. " Saroja
I have not researched the Bhindranwala stuff from the 80's but a Google search turned up lots of data that contradicts this assertion, including this article from Khushwant Singh:
http://www.countercurrents.org/comm-khushwantsing071104.htm
"..Did the Sikhs deserve to be taught a lesson? I pondered over the matter for many days and many hours and reluctantly admitted that Hindus had some justification for their anger against Sikhs. The starting point was the emergence of Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale as a leader. He used vituperative language against the Hindus. He exhorted every Sikh to kill 32 Hindus to solve the Hindu-Sikh problem. Anyone who opposed him was put on his hit list and some eliminated. His hoodlums murdered Lala Jagat Narain, founder of the Hind Samachar group of papers. They killed hawkers who sold their papers. The list of Bhindranwale's victims, which included both Hindus and Sikhs, was a long one..."
*********************
http://astro.temple.edu/~bstavis/courses/215-punjab-violence.htm
"May 23, 1984 [FedUp: Operation Bluestar was June 3-8, 1984] Sikh Terrorists Kill 13 In Northern India State
Sikh terrorists in the northern Indian state of Punjab killed 13 people and wounded more than 20 late Monday night. The worst incident involved four Hindu travelers who were killed Monday night near Moga, about 175 miles northwest of New Delhi, after six gunmen hijacked a bus and fired at its Hindu occupants. At least 10 others were wounded in the incident, several of them seriously. Meanwhile, the authorities placed the township of Mansa under curfew after Hindu mobs rioted in the streets during the funeral procession of a Hindu leader who was assassinated by extremists Monday night.... "
*******************************************
There is a pattern to these things in India - a religious minority will start an agitation over an issue, politicians of all communities will fish in these troubled waters, the minority leaders will target Hindus to polarize the communities, Hindus watch silently for a while and then take their anger out in mob violence, the minority community suffers disproportionately because they are fewer in number, and presto - a new bunch of victims and a new cause are created. The Gujarat riots of 2002 were triggered by Muslims burning alive 59 Hindu kar-sevaks at Godhra, the Bhindranwala problem from 1984 became a communal problem when Sikh terrorists deliberately targeted Hindus, the Kandhamal riots from 2008 started when Swami Saraswati and four of his associates were killed by a Christian mob.
Violence started by Hindus is usually directed against Dalits, so we are hardly blameless in this, but to solve a problem, you have to understand it first.
After 9/11 attacks in America
Hitesh
You still belive that it was an attack?
>> Like lot of good it has done to you
I'm doing a selfless public service :-).
I don't seek anything in return.
#84
>>I'm just helping them by telling them that they are idiots.
Like lot of good it has done to you.
#76
I do sometimes envy people "so sure about things" (not just for blissful their ignorance but their ability to impact the world), while rest of us get to vote for them.
>> I don't know when you first heard this line but seems to have stuck with you like a lyric of an earworm
The reason it has stuck with me is that unfortunately there are lot of idiots on this forum.
I'm just helping them by telling them that they are idiots.
#80
>>For example, Pakistan does not have communal violence between Hindus and Muslims either and Gujarat in this respect is like Pakistan.
Gujarat is certainly headed in that direction.
Just for counter-argument,
After 9/11 attacks in America, Colin Powell issues ultimatum to Pakistani military brass (with us or against us) and after Mumbai terrorist attacks, Shinde can't even assertively refute lot of the nonsensical claims made by visiting Rehman Malik.
Pakistan's problem has always been military junta and religious fundamentalism while India's has been a barely functioning incompetence (just google Delhi) masquaerading as a beacon of secular, liberal, and modern state.
#71
>>That's because you are an idiot.
I don't know when you first heard this line but seems to have stuck with you like a lyric of an earworm.
>>Yet it was very crucial in nailing down the culprits in Naroda Patiya case. Wake up.
No it was not! Your statement is nothing but pure BS.
The author is either incredibly stupid or wilfully blind to the fact that once the communal parties come to power and stay in power, there is no need for communal viloence as soon as the minorities are totally terrorized and marginalized. We just have to look around the world where religious fanatics have taken over to see this fact. For example, Pakistan does not have communal violence between Hindus and Muslims either and Gujarat in this respect is like Pakistan. While healthy debates should be encouraged and are part of a democracy, this author does not belong to a serious forum like Outlook unless she writes or comments as a Modi surrogate or a representatvie of Modi (and not as a columnist).
"Our Constitution is our safeguard against majoritarian dictatorship. Hence the importance of the Supreme Court. Debasement of these safeguards by agencies such as the Nanavaty Commission or the Raghavan SIT is the greatest threat to our Constitutional system of government"...Anwaar
1. What do you mean by majoritarian dictatorship? Isn't the UPA in power because it has a majority in the Lok Sabha? Isn't blackmailing the likes of Mulayam Singh and Mayawati, instead of prosecuting them, subversion of democracy and the constitution? If you mean dictatorship by the Hindus, persih the thought. There is no majority in India; we are all minorities and the largest minority, by far, is the Muslim community.
2. "Debasement of these safeguards.....did it not happen on a much larger scale and beyond reasonable doubt during Indira Gandhi's period, when she declared the emergency, when she superceded judges, when she transferred judges to other high courts, when she used IB and CBI as political weapons, when she tried to change the very nature of the Constitution, etc etc? The rot set in during her period and it has continued unabated in the subsequent years.
Neither the Nanavaty commission or the Raghavan SIT have performed in a malafide or biased manner nor did they exceed their brief. The biggest danger to the Constitution comes from the very political party you support so vehemently.
"May be i am dumb" ....Michael Lopes
Going by your posts on various topics, it is neither fallacious nor specious to assume that your speculation is fairly accurate. Merry Christmas, brother and a very happy New Year. Peace..
I always knew - there is not much to chose between the Congress and BJP - they all drink from the same watering holes at night anyways. Koi baath nahi, AAP koo try karenge next elections mein. Waise bhi, ek taraf Rahul babalog (yaa phir continuation of Maun Mohan Singh), ek taraf Modi (yaa phir chameleon like Advani) - apni tho waat lagne kaa poora andesha hai.
Gaana yaad aa gaya - arj kiya - "Apni tho jaise taise, kaath jayegi, aap kaa kya hoga janebe aali".
>>>> Is this what you want to emulate? It seems there is so little difference between Sanghis and Pakistanis! <<<<<
In other words WE MUSLIMS are BAD. Don't EMULATE us even though we will kick you whenever/ whereever we become majority. ----------------------------------------------- PAKI MUSLIMS were INDIAN MUSLIMS till 14-8-1947 who were part of the "SUPPOSEDLY" glorious ISLAMIC "SECULAR" RULE of India. So if the PAKI MUSLIMS have become the FOUNTAINHEAD of ISLAMIC VIOLENCE in just 65 years of independence how can those who opted to stay back in India be trusted to be any different. ------------------------------ But what about Syria, Libya, Egypt, Beharine, Somalia, Nigeria,Yemen, Sudan etc etc
>>>RSM __ For the last time, Tehelka sting has no value in a court of law.
Yet it was very crucial in nailing down the culprits in Naroda Patiya case. Wake up.
>>>For the last time, Tehelka sting has no value in a court of law.
:D thanks
I am having laughter club on chrismas eve. Would you like to join
>> I cannot understand
That's because you are an idiot.
Second, cash transfers to tribals contributed handsomely to Modi’s victory. Modi has used the cash transfer scheme efficiently to his political advantage.
Much before Finance Minister P Chidambaram boasted about it, the Modi government transferred more than Rs 900 crore (Rs 9 billion) to poor people all over Gujarat.
http://www.rediff.com/news/slide-show/slide-show-1-gujarat-election-analysis-narendra-modi-at-the-doorsteps-of-new-delhi/20121220.htm#4
Click next, next , next and see the write up and the extract quoted above. Why is Cheatambaram boasting about magic. They are copying Modi
//In my humble opinion, (I do not understand big business), given peace, people will find solutions to their problems in their own way.// @R.Saroja: It is generally the other way around.Note, the reduction in the number of supporters for the janambhoomi movement. Most young people want to improve their living standard asap. On another thread in the same issue, I have pointed out the pragmaticism that is a fundamental part of largely free enterprise. When people are given the freedom to, pursue self-interest legally & without coercion, it generally leads to reduction of sectarian/ethnic conflicts.
Post $ 67, No mate, I don't speak incoherentese or moronese!
Post # 64
Completely bows down before the King
Cannot you write in simple understandable language. May be i am dumb enough to understand your lang. But i doubt whether others may understand it either. May be i need a tution under Jaswantsingh.
>>What about the tehelka sting that established witnesses were manufactured?
For the last time, Tehelka sting has no value in a court of law. Stop clutching at straws.
> An honest article by a secular in Outlook!.....Whatsinaname (writing from Jhumri Tallaiyya)
Joker
Cannot you see her lie has been caught in the very first sentence.
She is hybrid. Communal secular. I always felt that women should not support parivar and its products. Parivar is anti-woman. I cannot understand why this kishwar is doing 'bharatnatyam' with her wordings in favour of parivar.
R.Saroja: You will stop quoting Madhu Kishwar from now on, I presume! This will be seen as a 'black mark' against her by you, just like Madhu Trehan's piece condemning the monkeys who survive on distorting secularism to mean something quite distant from it's originial wonderfully noble meaning, right??
"Shanta Baria was shot dead by police for rioting."
In Bombay in 1993
A lot of people talk that Gujarat has not done well in HDI and like. Such people refuse to accept a basic commonsense truth - things like HDI are not improved in a short span (5-10 years) but over long duration of 20-30 years.
The simple fact is if Kerala or TN have high HDI it is due to visionary leaders they had in 1950-1980 period and thanks to their efforts, today these states enjoy high HDI.
Gujarat has had selfish, fraudulent corrupt leaders , all of them Congress from the period 1947 to 1995. We had criminal divisive leaders (KHAM concept inventor Solanki ) and ultra corrupt ones (Gali Mein chor hai, Chiman Bhai Chor hai) and they have ruined the state over the 50 years of CON Party rule and working only for benefit of partymen of CON party and the CON party high command aka dynasty cult.
Namo is in power only last 11 years and it will take 2025- and beyond before we judge his rule in terms of HDI and aspects like women empowerment, malnutrition and like..
Meanwhile let us try to use same objective standards and ask why Maharashtra, a state ruled for 59 years by CON party is having so poor HDI ? Some of the poorest and dirtiest urban indian localities are in Mumbai. Why? Why is Delhi, a state ruled by CON party leader and Saint Sonia cult disciple Smt Sheela Dixit for last 14+ years such an unsafe place for women? And what about 30+ years of left ruled West Bengal, why is it still having so much poverty, squalour and illteracy?
Can the apologists for the dynasty dare answer these questions first?
Madhu Kishwar>>Those pillorying Modi for 2002, display total amnesia over the fact that Congressmen and women had gleefully joined VHP/BJP goons in the 2002 massacre as well. It has consistently projected 2002 riots as a one way massacre of Muslims by Hindus. But as per figures given by the Congress party’s minister of state for home Shri Prakash Jaiswal on 11 May 2005 in Parliament, those killed included 790 Muslims and 254 Hindus while 223 persons were reported missing. But anti- Modi brigade routinely overstates the case by talking of “thousands of Muslims” being butchered without every acknowledging Hindu casualties.
As you have reported extensively on anti sikh pogrom in Delhi, the mob of congress goons pulled out sikhs from their homes and set them afire after assauting them. Only when the mob was large, did they dare to enter sikh localities, as the sikhs fought back valiently. It was this size of mob that enabled the goons to enter sikh localities and kill. Neighbours did not kill neighbours.
In Bombay in 1993, similarly hindutva mobs would collect over maha arti and then attack muslim houses in the hindu - muslim border areas. They would enter muslim areas only if they were numerically strong, which they often were after maha artis. That explains the muslim casualties and large numbers who fled their homes.
But there were hindus in muslim majority areas also. Even when they were not attacked by large muslim mobs, they were not safe from being stabbed by small muslim groups as they passed by. A large number of hindu deaths was due to stabbings and the body being dumped into nearby gutter. So often there was no eye witness.
Almost of the victims , hindu or muslims were poor slum dwellers - most of them men. Even during the peak riot activity, it was safer for women to move around.
Both Bombay riots and Gujarat carnage was a fall out of Ayodhya movement.
I hold no brief for coverage of hindu or muslim victims by media, Since there has been some convictions of muslim rioters, clearly they had attacked in mobs the vulnerable hindus and were identified.. I would not be surprised if the vast majority of hindu deaths were due to "anonymous" stabbings. About Congress participation, one congress corporator Shanta Baria was shot dead by police for rioting.
Why Modi is personally being targetted is because of the meeting called on 27th Feb evening where instructions were given to let hindus express their anger. Corroborative evidence -- preventive custody of only 2 -6 (from different accounts: detained were muslims) in Ahmedabad compared to 8000 arrests in Mumbai. With Bajrang Dal office in every slum, Mumbai was in a precarious position. Yet nothing happened here. Police were everywhere. The group of activists who are after Modi are also the same who were campaigning for implementation of SriKrishna Commission recommendations. Here also you had eyewitness accoint of Thackeray directing the riots. He was given State funeral by the Congress Govt.
R Saroja >> According to 2011 report, Tamil Nadu ranks 8 in HDI with Kerala leading the list. Gujarat is #11. Per Capita income Gujarat ranks 9th as 2010-11 figures.How come you do not hear 8 other states boasting about theit PCI or 10 other states about their HDI?
Reg HDI, TN's High HDI has everything to do with 1) Excellent Leader CMs that TN as a state had in Kamarajar and MGR, both of whom invested early in high education. In contrast Congress CMs of gujarat from 1947 to 1995 invested in the well being of theirs and their high command. So, trying to dodge from basic fact that Gujarat's low HDI has everything to do with decades of your favourite CON party misrule is nothing but rank dishonesty.
R Saroja >>You are very fond of lecturing to the leftist R.Saroja. Last time I was arguing for no subsidies for LPG, instead subsidize solar cookers.
How exactly solar cookers are going to work in the slums of Dharavi (and 30% urban India) where space is premium and much cooking happens in night time, is something yet unexplained. And for rural India, dont see why people are going to use solar cookers unless the alternative (cheap, adulterated kerosene) is removed. And I never saw you asking for removing subsidies on Kerosene (90% of which never reaches the poor).
R Saroja >> About wind mills in TN, the govt has a buy back agreement with the wind mill owners.My understandind was, when there is "overproduction", the fear of grid instability has resulted in the power not being utilized.
You do not understand the technical impossiblity of using Wind power, a volatile source of power that is utterly useless in a state like TN. Wind power has been successful in such places in world (US, Denmark, UK etc) where there is a backup way of Natural Gas fired Thermal power plants, that can be switched off and on every minute when wind velocity is high or low . TN has all its power plants as coal fired plants (and there is no NG available to TN, thanks to UPA's disastrous handling of KG Field issues) and coal fired plants cannot be switched off and on at wish without damaging the grid. So pls understand that you cannot push for a solution without understanding the inherent complexities.
And yes, solar power will work well in TN provided people are ready to pay high prices for the solar power. In a state that destroyed its SEB through free power for farmers, this is not going to happen. So there are no alternatives right now except for more thermal and nuclear power plants .
>> Where ever MUSLIMS get adequate numbers they become the biggest DICTATORS.
Is this what you want to emulate? It seems there is so little difference between Sanghis and Pakistanis!
>> Nor is the death of 59 Hindus burnt to death at Godhra railway station ever treated with the same seriousness. In fact, many among the Modi-bashers brazenly allege that the Godhra train massacre was a VHP/BJP conspiracy, even though several known Congressmen have been convicted by the courts for that mass murder.---- Madhu Kishwar
Some observations---
1 Not all relatives of victims were happy with the prosecution in Gujarat and had wanted the case to be transferred outside Gujarat .www.rediff.com/news/2003/oct/05godh.htm www.hindu.com/2003/10/06/stories/2003100605011100.htm
2. What about the tehelka sting that established witnesses were manufactured? --
The prosecution’s conspiracy theory against Godhra Muslims rested primarily on five sets of witnesses 1. Nine BJPmen who claimed to be eyewitnesses to the carnage These men accused 41 Muslims who spent nine years in jail. A TEHELKA sting caught two of these BJP men admitting on camera they were actually at home that day and the police fabricated their statements. They went along to “serve the cause of Hindutva”. The judge has now discarded all nine testimonies 2. Ajay Baria, a Hindu vendor, forced into the plot; saw it all Judge Patel has relied hugely on Baria’s account. But why would Muslim conspirators pick a Hindu man at the last minute to help load the petrol and burn the train? TEHELKA tried to track him but failed. His mother said he had been coerced into becoming a police witness and lived under constant police surveillance. 3. Two petrol pump attendants who claim they sold 140 litres of fuel to some Muslims on 26 Feb Ranjitsinh and Pratapsinh Patel had first told the police that they had not sold any loose petrol that crucial night. In a shocking turnaround, six months later, they changed their version. However, TEHELKA caught Ranjitsinh admitting on camera that he and Pratap had been bribed Rs. 50,000 by police officer Noel Parmar to do that. He also tutored them to identify particular Muslims in court as being the buyers 4. Jabir Bahera, a petty criminal, who first named Maulvi Umarji as a mastermind Bahera claimed it was Umarji who picked coach S-6 as the target, but also said Umarji was not at any conspiracy meetings. He later retracted everything 5. Sikandar Siddique, another petty criminal, said he had pulled the chain the second time Siddique is an obvious unreliable witness. Besides Umarji, he had said Maulvi Punjabi had incited the mob. But Punjabi was not even in the country that day Two of these — Murli Mulchandani and Kakul Pathak — were caught on camera telling the TEHELKA reporter that both of them were actually sleeping at home when the incident occurred. Shockingly, they said not only them but the other seven BJP ‘eyewitnesses’ had also not been present at Godhra station (see boxes on pages 36 and 40). Pathak also confessed that though all nine were from the BJP, the police had passed them off as VHP members to justify their presence at the railway station. (The call for the Ayodhya karseva had been given by the VHP). TEHELKA had also laid out in great detail the pre-existing political and business rivalries that had guided the testimonies of these nine BJP men. These nine witnesses were a critical link in the prosecution’s theory. Forty-one Muslims had stayed behind bars for the last nine years as previous judges had denied bail based on these testimonies. By calling them unreliable now, Judge Patel has validated both TEHELKA’s findings and the assertions of the Muslim accused that the Gujarat police had manufactured evidence and tutored witnesses. <b>But more importantly, the discrediting of these nine BJP men is proof that there was a deliberate conspiracy by the Modi dispensation to implicate innocent Muslims.</b> Not only were they asked to put up false testimonies, the police then deliberately failed to produce their call data — something that could have easily nailed their exact location at the time of the incident. Kakul Pathak, in fact, had told this reporter that the police had drafted his testimony in advance. All he did was give his consent and sign. Stop for a moment and let the full implication of all this sink in. Now combine it with Judge Patel’s own findings. There were other crucial pieces in the prosecution’s case that the judge has discarded. For one, the police had claimed that 15 of the accused were arrested from the scene of crime immediately after the incident and made to squat near Cabin A, guarded by armed police personnel. According to them, a Muslim mob which included Kalota and a few other local Muslim leaders had then descended upon Cabin A and attacked the police personnel to free their arrested co-conspirators. The judge set this assertion aside as baseless.......
The prosecution’s conspiracy theory against Godhra Muslims rested primarily on five sets of witnesses 1. Nine BJPmen who claimed to be eyewitnesses to the carnage These men accused 41 Muslims who spent nine years in jail. A TEHELKA sting caught two of these BJP men admitting on camera they were actually at home that day and the police fabricated their statements. They went along to “serve the cause of Hindutva”. The judge has now discarded all nine testimonies 2. Ajay Baria, a Hindu vendor, forced into the plot; saw it all Judge Patel has relied hugely on Baria’s account. But why would Muslim conspirators pick a Hindu man at the last minute to help load the petrol and burn the train? TEHELKA tried to track him but failed. His mother said he had been coerced into becoming a police witness and lived under constant police surveillance. 3. Two petrol pump attendants who claim they sold 140 litres of fuel to some Muslims on 26 Feb Ranjitsinh and Pratapsinh Patel had first told the police that they had not sold any loose petrol that crucial night. In a shocking turnaround, six months later, they changed their version. However, TEHELKA caught Ranjitsinh admitting on camera that he and Pratap had been bribed Rs. 50,000 by police officer Noel Parmar to do that. He also tutored them to identify particular Muslims in court as being the buyers 4. Jabir Bahera, a petty criminal, who first named Maulvi Umarji as a mastermind Bahera claimed it was Umarji who picked coach S-6 as the target, but also said Umarji was not at any conspiracy meetings. He later retracted everything 5. Sikandar Siddique, another petty criminal, said he had pulled the chain the second time Siddique is an obvious unreliable witness. Besides Umarji, he had said Maulvi Punjabi had incited the mob. But Punjabi was not even in the country that day Two of these — Murli Mulchandani and Kakul Pathak — were caught on camera telling the TEHELKA reporter that both of them were actually sleeping at home when the incident occurred. Shockingly, they said not only them but the other seven BJP ‘eyewitnesses’ had also not been present at Godhra station (see boxes on pages 36 and 40). Pathak also confessed that though all nine were from the BJP, the police had passed them off as VHP members to justify their presence at the railway station. (The call for the Ayodhya karseva had been given by the VHP). TEHELKA had also laid out in great detail the pre-existing political and business rivalries that had guided the testimonies of these nine BJP men. These nine witnesses were a critical link in the prosecution’s theory. Forty-one Muslims had stayed behind bars for the last nine years as previous judges had denied bail based on these testimonies. By calling them unreliable now, Judge Patel has validated both TEHELKA’s findings and the assertions of the Muslim accused that the Gujarat police had manufactured evidence and tutored witnesses. <b>But more importantly, the discrediting of these nine BJP men is proof that there was a deliberate conspiracy by the Modi dispensation to implicate innocent Muslims.</b> Not only were they asked to put up false testimonies, the police then deliberately failed to produce their call data — something that could have easily nailed their exact location at the time of the incident. Kakul Pathak, in fact, had told this reporter that the police had drafted his testimony in advance. All he did was give his consent and sign.
Stop for a moment and let the full implication of all this sink in. Now combine it with Judge Patel’s own findings.
There were other crucial pieces in the prosecution’s case that the judge has discarded. For one, the police had claimed that 15 of the accused were arrested from the scene of crime immediately after the incident and made to squat near Cabin A, guarded by armed police personnel. According to them, a Muslim mob which included Kalota and a few other local Muslim leaders had then descended upon Cabin A and attacked the police personnel to free their arrested co-conspirators. The judge set this assertion aside as baseless.......
>>> Our Constitution is our safeguard against majoritarian dictatorship.<<<
AND NO PROTECTION AGAINST MINORITY DICTATORSHIP. Where ever MUSLIMS get adequate numbers they become the biggest DICTATORS. Comment #27 highlightsit. The INDIAN UNION MUSLIM LEAGUE (IUML) has been part of Kerala Govt with CPM & Congress from 1957 but never ever had a HINDU MINISTER even when SC HINDUS have been elected as IUML MLAs. Presently all the 22 IUML MLAs and 5 Ministers in Congress led UDF Govt of Kerala are Muslims and since with out the support of the 22 Muslims MLAs Congress led Govt will be reduced to minority of just 50 MLAs in 140 member Assembly IUML is give a free hand in doing anything as they please in Kerala by Congress. --------------- AIUDF leadership of Assam also had declared that they would hold KING MAKER role in Assam after 2011 elections but the people of Assam prevented it by giving a single party majority to Congress even though congress had become unpopular having been in power continiously with same CM for TEN YEARS from 2001 as BJP & AGP contesting each other couldn't ensure to keep AIUDF out.
Madhu Kishwar seems to first decide which way the wind is blowing before writing an article. When Manmohan Singh is down, she decides to kick him. When Hazare is in the ascendancy, she jumps on his bandwagon. When Sonia and Rahul are bearing the heat, she fans the flames. When Modi gets a hat-trick she rushes to be in the forefront of his apologists!
>> Modi is loved by the saffronites for the same reason that Aurangzeb is loved by Pakistanis
The sicular-jehadi dream of equating Indian and Paki societies is alive and kicking.
Fedup,
>> Hate is what Hindus, Sikhs and other religious minorities are subjected.
True! You should know hate because you too are a seasoned practitioner of it.
Our Constitution is our safeguard against majoritarian dictatorship. Hence the importance of the Supreme Court. Debasement of these safeguards by agencies such as the Nanavaty Commission or the Raghavan SIT is the greatest threat to our Constitutional system of government.
I salute Madhu Kishwar for speaking the entire truth! glad such sane voice found some space in this one sided modi batter Magazine!
>>>The anti-Sikh massacre of 1984 saw Congressmen lead killer-mobs who gang raped Sikh women, looted and burnt innumerable Sikh homes and properties, and roasted alive thousands of Sikh men in broad day light with the police merrily assisting the gangsters. Not a single Hindu rioter died at the hands of Sikhs or in police firing. The massacre was not confined to Delhi. Similar mode of butchery took place in several north Indian cities and towns. Uncounted Sikhs were pulled out of trains and set on fire. For three long days and nights the police either stood and watched the fun or actively assisted hired assassins. No Hindu homes were burnt in retaliatory violence by Sikhs. No Hindu had to go and live in refugee camps --Madhu Kishwar
In this forum, one writer DC made an assertion that it was the targetted violence against hindus by Khalistanis that had fuelled hindu anger against Sikhs in Delhi. His post was well liked by others, though as far as I remember, pulling hindu passengers out of bus & killing them in Punjab started much later.
In my observation, after violence against sikhs many people started hating them. At a personal level, I broke off some friendships after they asserted that what happened in Delhi was necessary for secularism.
Like you made a list of what you expected seculars to stand for, make a similar list for muslims.Let me modify your words etc, so that both you and Anwaar accept it. Try.
"What a hateful post!" Anwaar
- Hate is what Hindus, Sikhs and other religious minorities are subjected to in every part of the Indian subcontinent - Afghanistan, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Kashmir - where Muslims are a majority. Hindus and others have been killed by the millions, ethnically cleansed and forcibly converted to a point where all these countries are 99% Muslim except for Bangladesh which is 93% Muslim and rising.
- Hate is demanding the right to convert Hindus to Islam while killing Muslims who convert to other religions and threatening/jailing/killing pastors or priests who proselytize Muslims (this happens in "secular" India - see below).
http://www.christianpost.com/news/accused-pastor-in-kashmir-india-given-reprieve-69830/
- Hate is demanding the right for Muslim men to marry Hindu women and convert them, while killing any Hindu man who marries a Muslim woman - this happens in "secular" India.
http://islamicterrorism.wordpress.com/2008/08/07/vijaywada-muslims-rampage-as-hindu-boy-weds-muslim-girl/
- Hate (self-hate) is what sickulars are guilty of when they know that a Muslim mob burned alive 59 Hindus in Godhra but dismiss it as an "accident".
- Hate (self-hate) is what sickulars are guilty of when they call the killing of 1000 Muslims in Gujarat "genocide" while staying silent about the millions of Hindus who were killed in East Pakistan in 1971 or about the epidemic of murder/rape/forced conversions of the last remaining Hindus and Sikhs that is going on *today* in the Islamic Republic of Pakistan.
- Pointing these things out and demanding that Islam reform itself is not hate.
- Pointing out the utter hypocrisy of sickulars, like Ms. Kishwar has in this article, is not hate.
D.L.Narayan expressed my views perfectly:
"I look forward to the day when we are Indians first and all our sub-identities are incidental and do not detract from our primary identity as children of Mother India, the cradle of civilisation and home to unity in diversity."
Really refreshing to see an article on Modi that is different from the usual congress propaganda and puts thing in proper perspective. Maybe the outlook editors were on holiday. Otherwise they would not have published this.
"How the Hindus of India are being manipulated by Modi is the real problem. How some seculars like Madhu Kishwar succumb to this seduction is a tragedy."...Anwaar
With due respect, Mr. Anwaar, the Hindus of India are not a monothic voting block to be manipulated by anyone. The Hindus are divided by caste, language and region. While there are schisms with the Muslims too, when it comes to voting, the will sink their differences and join the ranks. Which is why an Ebrahim Sulaiman Sait from Gujarat who knew no Malayalam can win several elections from Kerala on an IUML ticket and a Mohammed Azharuddin from AP can win elections from UP. Modi's appeal to is not because of the 2002 riots but because of his track record as an excellent administrator.
As for Madhu Kishwar, she is no simpleton to be 'seduced' by Modi's 'charms'. Nor is she having a closed mind like many so-called secular intellectuals who wear ideological blinkers and cannot see beyond their nose. If Ms. Kishwar cannot differentiate between truth and hype, I do not know who can.
Clearly all those Modi bashers should reexamine their perceptions/convictions, of necessary by comaparing notes with fellow travelers.Of course they can continue as they are as ten years of their rantings have had zilch effect !A labour of love(should I say hate?) unmindful of rewards. I am not so sure of the rewards bit as several NGOs are surviving on this industry!But ten years is a long time to be at a poinless endeavour.That a whole set of such 'commentators' can pretend that the events mentioned in this article never happened and still persist in brainwashing the mangoes is a measure of their obduracy and pigheaded attitudes.By now people have a good sense about such commentators and avoid their idiotic write-ups.As long as there is some remuneration such paid news/views will find its way into the print and visual media, to be avoided like the plague.
Could the developments in Gujarat in the wake of Godra carnage not be a spontaneous backlash of the long suffering Hindu majority to the vote bank politics and politics of appeasement practised by the congress and the shocked response of the community to the cruel end of the 59 karsevaks in the bogey inferno?
"Congress darjano riots hajam kr gyi, Modi ek bhi nahi kr paaya. Seculirism ka makhota lagalo toh sab maaf. " Madhu purnima Kishor in one of her tweets.
The entire media in India are just the pimps of this Italian family.So also are the social activists like Arundhati Roy,Teesta Setalvad etc who are additionally the prime anti-Hindu forces in the country.One can switch off the TV when Gujarat politics is discussed with anchors like Barkha Dutt,Sagarika or Rajdeep Sardesai.You will never see an N.Ram,or Vinod Mehta or their likes commenting on the utter limitations in Sonia and Rahul Gandhi.It is high time that Arvind Kejriwal does an indepth analysis of the links between the Sonia family and the English media in gneral.
Economic development has never brought any leader as much adulation as Modi commands among his admirers. Let us face it. Modi is loved by the saffronites for the same reason that Aurangzeb is loved by Pakistanis. So let us drop all these pretentious rationalizations of development.
A leader should be decisive, able to inspire, make people take pride in what they want to be without being divisive. I will settle for Nitish Kumar or some other person who may appear on the scene.Modi or Rahul are no where in the picture.Congress may stand a chance if they settle for someone like PC or Shiela Dikshit.
No leader in India can survive with just one communal riot. Look at Congress , they engineered communal riots in AP,UP,ASSAM and elsewhere but had probably won only one election or did not win any .
That is ,even if we were to consider that Mr.Modi actively connived at pestering the communal riot in the after math of Godhra mass killings. However, indicting the highest authority of the state is extremely difficult ( anywhere), even if had personal prejudices as a human being. Never before a head of a state was investigated like the way Modi was investigated.
The idea was to bury his popularity as quickly as possible and to build a permanent “Samadhi” forever to BJP as well as to Modi.. Congress party was right in their assessment but were clearly wrong in their strategy to finish him. I think BJP party lost at least 10 seats just by about 2000 votes margin only. The tally could have been 125 !! So, to win thrice, you must have something in you. In south for example , NTR could not come back in the very next elections and Jayalalitha was no different. Except Jyothi Basu, I think there was hardly anyone ( at CM level) who could win thrice in a row all on his own , without a mixed Govt.
The winning factor is the negative propaganda. It is social science , which proves a theory that a negative propaganda can be more powerful than any positive factors not just in elections but even in commercial advertisements to sell a product. A “kichdi” Janatha Govt. came to power because of a negative vote against Indira Gandhi. Even BJP came to power at Centre largely through a negative vote. NTR first time , came to power due to a negative vote against Congress.
In Modi's case, it was negative for the Congress to witch hunt Modi's faults if any ,during a communal riots 10 years ago. If Congress and its paid media and foreign agents go with this witch hunt and continue their propaganda, it will only strengthen Mr.Modi. Modi on the other hand trying desperately to get rid of this albatross around his neck. He proved that by doing good work like for example , appointing highest number of Muslim police constables in Gujarat compared to any state even Kerala. We have a very high number of Telugu people in Gujarat ,mostly weavers but also others like hotels and pharmaceuticals etc., Telugu women in TV interviews say that they feel very safe in the streets because people here are afraid to look at women. All most all of them openly said they would vote for Modi.( BJP is immaterial.)
One can observe what happens to a leader if he remains non-corrupt, and play decisive politics. MJ Akbar said Mr.Modi played decisive politics whether good or for bad. If Indira Gandhi were to contest elections today, she would win 450 seats. He was also able administrator, decisive and personally very simple living and a honest person. That has won him the victory. In today's world people are fed up with corrupt politicians.
>> it is for a million Modis all over India to root out these Islamists and sickulars
What a hateful post! Rooting out people with such hateful communalist views would be a lot better for India.
Ramki,
According to 2011 report, Tamil Nadu ranks 8 in HDI with Kerala leading the list. Gujarat is #11. Per Capita income Gujarat ranks 9th as 2010-11 figures.How come you do not hear 8 other states boasting about theit PCI or 10 other states about their HDI?
You are very fond of lecturing to the leftist R.Saroja. Last time I was arguing for no subsidies for LPG, instead subsidize solar cookers.
About wind mills in TN, the govt has a buy back agreement with the wind mill owners.My understandind was, when there is "overproduction", the fear of grid instability has resulted in the power not being utilized.
[[No one in TN is tom toming about the next the PM being Karunanidhi or Jayalalitha.]]
What a ridiculous comparison! First of all, has either of them been able to retain power even once? We see a change of government every 4 years in TN. While Jayalalitha is a very capable administrator, the fact is that even she hasn't been able to rule TN for two successive terms. How then can either one of them (although I do feel Jayalalitha is PM material) be talked about in the same breath as Modi?
R Saroja >> No one in TN is tom toming about the next the PM being Karunanidhi or Jayalalitha.
Leave aside Jayalalitha, the fact is from 1996 till now (2013), that is in last 17 years, for 16 years the DMK of Mr Karunanidhi has been part of every, I repeat every government at delhi and has owned plum, portfolios that coudl have made real difference to the people of TamilNadu. And DMK has also been such a critical part of every government that its exit would have even meant the end of government ... And maybe next to CON-gress party, the party that has been longest duration in Government @ Delhi has been DMK !!
So it is not about judging Namo as a PM candidate vs Karunanidhi not harbouring PM candidate aspirations. It is also about how much has been delivered to people of a state by leaders of the party.
You can feel unhappy with Namo's record as Guj CM (despite a hostile govt at delhi ) but what about the record of DMK as partner of governments@ delhi last 17 years !! How much has it benefitted the people of TN? That is the objective criteria which you will not discuss about ...
Hitting the nail of the coffin, Madhuji?. You will soon be branded as a farcist, a hitler etc. I hope your emploers wont fire you. In the last 10 years this is the first time i have come across a pro Modi article. Thank you.
R Saroja >> In my humble opinion, (I do not understand big business), given peace, people will find solutions to their problems in their own way. Tamil Nadu has serious power crisis. But that has also forced people to look at solar energy alternatives.
You are wrong. TAMILNADU has not been able to look at Solar Energy alternatives. Because, SOLAR energy is not an alternative, if you are interested in a "STATIST, COMMUNIST" Economic model where the "STATE" is expected to give freebies and run the budgets of citizens and fund the same by selling liquor to the same citizens.
TamilNadu's Energy Picture is in shambles. This is for a state, that is most urbanised state of India, which is having perhaps most established industrialization dating back to 100 years, which is more industrialized than every big state except Gujarat.
Last 3 decades of investment in wind energy has ruined TamilNadu, because people are unable to take to simple truth that Wind energy is such a useless, volatile, unreliable source of power that simply wont work to power up its industries...
Solar Energy works only where people are ready to pay high rates of electricity to allow utilities to invest insolar power. It is working in Germany. It wont work in socialist state of Tamilnadu, till people agree to pay for their electricity. And R Saroja and other leftists should first understand this basic truth.
All I can say is ... Thank you Ms.Madhu for this honest apprisal of the current situation and the reality check. Constant vilification campain against Mr.Modi who is increasing proving his mettle as a leader is unbecoming of the media pushing more and more into his league of supporters. Not just that, as you've rightly pointed out, the targetting and tarring of the ppl who see something positive of his state is also a factor which the pseudo vermins donot understand inspite of repeated assertions. Many have seen through the activities and funding of these ngos which are feasting on the communal divide.
Some points worth noting....
But as per figures given by the Congress party’s minister of state for home Shri Prakash Jaiswal on 11 May 2005 in Parliament, those killed included 790 Muslims and 254 Hindus while 223 persons were reported missing. But anti- Modi brigade routinely overstates the case by talking of “thousands of Muslims” being butchered without every acknowledging Hindu casualties. Nor is the death of 59 Hindus burnt to death at Godhra railway station ever treated with the same seriousness. In fact, many among the Modi-bashers brazenly allege that the Godhra train massacre was a VHP/BJP conspiracy, even though several known Congressmen have been convicted by the courts for that mass murder But in Ahmedabad, thousands of Hindus, a large number of them Dalits, had to take shelter in refugee camps. There were several instances of Muslim attacks on Hindu homes and shops. 34 Muslims have been sentenced by courts in Gujarat. But this is never mentioned even in passing in media discussion on 2002
But as per figures given by the Congress party’s minister of state for home Shri Prakash Jaiswal on 11 May 2005 in Parliament, those killed included 790 Muslims and 254 Hindus while 223 persons were reported missing. But anti- Modi brigade routinely overstates the case by talking of “thousands of Muslims” being butchered without every acknowledging Hindu casualties. Nor is the death of 59 Hindus burnt to death at Godhra railway station ever treated with the same seriousness. In fact, many among the Modi-bashers brazenly allege that the Godhra train massacre was a VHP/BJP conspiracy, even though several known Congressmen have been convicted by the courts for that mass murder
But in Ahmedabad, thousands of Hindus, a large number of them Dalits, had to take shelter in refugee camps. There were several instances of Muslim attacks on Hindu homes and shops. 34 Muslims have been sentenced by courts in Gujarat. But this is never mentioned even in passing in media discussion on 2002
Adding to that the perpetuation of victimhood among the minorities where as the incidents such as the plight of kashmiri hindus/ or the reaction of muslims to BM demolition and the rioting of mimand congie goons in hyd are, as we are told, mere "reactions". If some jihadi idiots bombs and kills ppl or set fire to trains, our media crooks start justifying it under the pretext of "kashmir"/2002/bm. In fact they vie with eachother in giving very sophisticated excuses, where the evidence runs 180 deg to those excuses. Case in point. ... Godhra train burning. And these (coupled with the victimhood feeling even where the minorities are the aggressors) do provide the canon fodder for the jihadi factory. no ? Lastly, the communal violence bill if enacted would be devastating to the nation if not properly revised instead of being blatantly biased against the so called majority
By contrast BJP tried harvesting only one crop—that too in collaboration with the Congress party
Forget about the "crop harvesing" by the bjp, what were the congies upto ... the "hand"s role (and not just complicity) had not been investigated thoroughly into the Godhra train burning case too
Even the highly partisan Sachar committee report
Thanks for reaffirming my own views on it
My comment #29. Madhu Kishwar has a point that media are demonising only Modi over Gujarat 2002. I do not see why Congress should get away with Delhi 1984 or its role in Ram Janma Bhoomi movement or other riots.
In my humble opinion, (I do not understand big business), given peace, people will find solutions to their problems in their own way. Tamil Nadu has serious power crisis. But that has also forced people to look at solar energy alternatives. The media is guilty of downplaying the misdeeds of Congress. Media has very short term memories. They hop from issues to issues.
Where some people have stuck to one issue and have been successful in bringing justice, it is Madhu Kishwar who is demonising the activists. Without the activism of Citizens for Justice and Peace, or Jan Sangarsh Manch or CDs of Rahul Sharma or their analysis by JSM, intervention of National Human Rights commission or Supreme court or Tehelka Sting, Gujarat would have gone the way of others.
I am no apologist for Congress. And I am no supporter of "intellectuals" like Girilal Jain who whitewashed and justified everything that is rotten in our country. Intelligentia should be objective and probing. I am not willing to give that title to runners of media empire. Ours is a vast country, with no dearth of people who can lead. The current churning that is going on, whether over mega scams or rape, will hopefully throw up some leader with vision. Or may be we will plod along without any "Leader".
Madhu kishwar: You are fearless honest writer who can look thru the telescope and wrote a truthfull artical about Mr. Modi.In india every one compare him with Hitler.That is another mystry to me. A man has done so good to India.I can say a bravo.Everyone Knows: Center buys votes with money and rule through accusing opposition with the same charges which they faces by the highest court of India.They get the votes from poor people and from educated also by divide and rule.People are helpless and can't face so many different parties and their agenda.Center wins.Congress will do utmost to make Rahul Gandhi as PM.This government will not change, unless the modification of Indian constituion happen.I wish like most of us some kind of miracle may happen to save poor indians.Rich and corrupt people are ok.They have nothing to fear. They have no need to go any where else.
Madhu Kishwar >>Moreover, Gujarat government is providing 90% subsidy for drip irrigation in order to being about efficient water utilisation.
Now in Tamil Nadu as far as drip irrigation is concerned,
"While 100 per cent subsidy (maximum of Rs.43,816 per acre) is given to small and marginal farmers, other farmers would be able to get 75 per cent subsidy to adopt drip irrigation to cultivate crops like long staple cotton, maize, groundnut and sugarcane." www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp-national/tp-tamilnadu/article3773858.ece
About recharging ground water, Gujarat is in a better position because of Narmada. But other states are not lagging behind as far as check dams etc are concerned. twadboard.gov.in/twad/check_dam.aspx
No one in TN is tom toming about the next the PM being Karunanidhi or Jayalalitha.
Madhu Kishwar >> Gulati also explains that Bt Cotton has produced an economic miracle in Gujarat. Cotton yields have gone up by 80% in Gujarat while pesticide consumption has come down dramatically. Gujarat government made it easy for its farmers to access high yielding sturdy seeds whereas the UPA government under pressure from ill-informed NGOs is putting all manners of hurdles in farmers acquiring better seeds. As per Gulati’s estimates, Bt cotton has created a Rs 10,000 cr export potential per year. However, in Maharashtra Bt cotton is comparatively less successful; it has even led to farmer suicides and economic distress. This is because over 50% of the cotton crop area in Gujarat is irrigated while Vidarbha is growing cotton with less than 5% area under irrigation. Bt cotton can’t grow without assured irrigation.
There is very sparse coverage of rural news in Main stream English media. However about Bt cotton story in Gujarat -
After eight years of uninterrupted success, Bt Cotton seems to have run into trouble in Gujarat. Scientists of Monsanto, the multinational giant that developed Bt Cotton in India with Mahyco, have detected unusual survival of pink bollworm (a pest) while monitoring the 2009 cotton crop in Gujarat.
Pink bollworm was found in the cotton crop of Amreli, Bhavnagar, Junagarh and Rajkot districts. These districts had reportedly started using Bt Cotton illegally since 1998, four years before the genetically modified variety of cotton was launched for commercial use in the country.
Scientists have found unusual survival of pink bollworm to first-generation single-protein Bollgard cotton. Testing was conducted to assess resistance to Cry1Ac, the Bt protein in Bollgard cotton. Similarly pink bollworm resistance to Cry1Ac was confirmed in the four districts. www.dnaindia.com/india/report_resistant-bt-cotton-gives-away-to-pest-in-gujarat_1355817
Also, escalating costs and other problems have reduced the percentage of farmers growing GM crops in Gujarat. While 80 per cent of Khedbrahma’s farmers were known to be growing Bt cotton till recently, of late the figure has reduced to 10 to 15 per cent. Arvind Bhai, a leading Bt farmer in earlier days, said with exasperation, “I tried all kinds of treatments, spent a lot of money, but my Bt cotton crop did not recover. So I decided to give up this crop.” A similar experience was shared by other farmers of the village like Ashok Bhai.
www.thehindu.com/life-and-style/society/a-call-against-bt-cotton/article3784160.ece
But then the paid news aspect of Bt- cotton success story is well known . I am not aware of anyone trashing Sainath siory on that.
To be fair, Madhu Kishwar has pointed out the importance of irrigation for the success of Bt.cotton. Opinions are still divided over it. It is not a simple case of bigotted NGOs on one hand and a progressive CM on the other.
I'm frankly surprised, but if Madhu Kishwar writes something, it is worth considering seriously.
On the other SECULAR SIDE
-- All the SEVEN MLAs of Majlis-e-Ittehadul Muslimeen (MIM) of Hyderabad are Muslims. -- All except SC MLAs of AIUDF of Assam are Muslims. -- The only RULING MUSLIM PARTY in any state- Indian Union MUSLIM LEAGUE (IUML) of Kerala has NEVER EVER had a non-MUSLIM Minister from 1957-2012. Presently all FIVE MINISTERS and 22 MLAs of IUML in CONGRESS led UDF GOVT of Kerala are Muslims.
-- AND the Congress led UPA Govt is VERY SECULAR accepting support from MPs of all above MUSLIM PARTIES and making ONE IUML MUSLIM MP from Kerala a Minister in UPA GOVT.
One of the recurring themes in Indian history is the uncanny ability of Hindus to grab defeat from the jaws of victory.
The Battle of Tallikota in 1564 should have been an easy victory for Vijaynagar, but just as the battle was turning in their favour, an arrow hit the elephant of Rama Raya, the king of Vijaynagar, and the wounded elephant ran away from the battle. Seeing this, the Hindu troops panicked and were routed. The armies of the Deccan sultanates then entered Vijaynagar and razed it to the ground after slaughtering everyone in the city, ending a glorious kingdom which had served as the focal point of Hindu resistance for 250 years.
This was not the first time in Indian history that wounded elephants turned the tide of the battle against us. Al Beruni records that when Muslims first encoutered war elephants in India, they were terrified of these huge beasts, but soon realized that by wounding these animals, they could be made to run amuck and trample on their own troops. The smart thing for Hindus to do would have been to give up war elephants at that point - if kings needed to have war elephants to stay above the battle, they should have had a large of very visible leaders all over the battlefield to make sure that there was no "single point of failure" as we say in systems engineering. But then, the Hindoo has a sense of the past but no sense of history, so learning from history is difficult for us.
As much as we celebrate the victory of Modi, we must remember that like at Tallikota, we are one lucky sniper shot or bomb blast away from being leaderless once again. The need of the hour is not for one Modi or ten Modis - it is for a million Modis all over India to root out these Islamists and sickulars who have been eating our country and our people, and to transform all of India, not just Gujarat.
An honest article by a secular in Outlook!
Probably this is what the Mayans meant by the end of the world.
Thank you Madhu kishwar for writing an unbiased article about Narendra modi. I did not expect such an article from you as i have seen you many times debating same as other pseudo-secularists do on tv channels. but you should be appreciated for being non-biased in your views.
the Gujarat riots of 2002 converted Modi bashing into an extremely rewarding career advancement strategy for media persons, NGO activists, academics and sundry intellectuals.
This is probably the most important sentence in this well-written article. Krishna Prasad and VM will be looking for escape routes after letting this article publish. Someone should have been asleep at the wheel in letting this slip through.
Today Muslims of Gujarat are clearly scripting a new role for themselves......
They could do that??? What happens to India's secularism if they are allowed to develop like every other citizen of this country?
>> "The day the Muslims of India see how they are being manipulated......"
How the Hindus of India are being manipulated by Modi is the real problem. How some seculars like Madhu Kishwar succumb to this seduction is a tragedy.
>> Modi became the darling of the media and a section of the population only after Gujarat 2002.
That is the absolute truth. To say anything different is a deliberate lie and Madhu Kishwar should know it.
now madhu keeshwar will branded as a fascist by looney seculars, fact is, NAMO towers above all. paid news media like OUTLOOK will only look more and more idiot and fool as NAMO goes on on on ...
"Today Muslims of Gujarat are clearly scripting a new role for themselves and a new equation not just with Modi but also those who want to keep scratching their wounds and encashing their real and imaginary vulnerabilities. They are letting the world know that they can speak for themselves and manage their affairs without the help of manipulative mediators."
The day the Muslims of India see how they are being manipulated, become political aware of how their vulnerabilities, both real and perceived, are being exploited at the altar of political expediency, that is the day when true secularism will triumph over latent communalism, and divisive politics get totally eradicated from the political landscape of our country.
I look forward to the day when we are Indians first and all our sub-identities are incidental and do not detract from our primary identity as children of Mother India, the cradle of civilisation and home to unity in diversity. The first nails have gone into the coffin of pseudo-secularism. RIP.
"I have just logged in. Wait. Assuming you meant me" R. Saroja.
For once, you are spot on. I do think it was intended for you. RSM beat me to it, lol.
>>The systematic demonisation of Narendra Modi in the media began with Medha Patkar’s Narmada Bachao Andolan.
Modi became the darling of the media and a section of the population only after Gujarat 2002. Even before Modi was anywhere in the picture, Madhu Kishwar had serious reservations with NBA. Madame, it was through Manushi, I learnt about the nature of communalism in India, how communal violence is enacted. It was through your writing, I learnt to read Arun Shourie, what he writes and what he misses. You were the lone voice in media to never forget Delhi 1984. Through you I also got a perspective on calls for Uniform Civil Code. You visited us in Bombay in the aftermath of the communal violence and saw the devastation with your own eyes,and wrote about it too. I have learnt a lot from you, and nothing can take away that. I shall reply to you in a day or two,.
But the very first line of your article is not exactly honest, is it?
... have gone so overboard in demonizing Modi that even people like me who have been consistent critics of BJP feel revolted enough to say: “This has gone too far. Please don’t manipulate us beyond our tolerance limit.”
Precisely the point. Salman Rushdie said in some interview regarding his book Satanic Verses; (something like): "Now the book is living the normal life it deserve, which was denied for long. Just as any other book, it has its good and bad." Same thing goes with Modi. As a human being, and an administrator to top that, it is impossible for anyone to be perfect. The normal criticism, as well as praise, he deserves, has been denied by pseudo brigade for far too long. Some of the BS of this brigade is so appalling that jaw drops in disbelieve. The "idea of India" is in danger, some are saying. Who the F authorize you to draft that idea anyway?
One has to give credit to this man. Imagine a olympic race; where everyone is running on normal track, but one player is given a track with all hurdles and ditches. Yet he is the one keep winning. Kuchh baat to hai.
One thing that is missed out here wrt Gujrat that came up during Gujrat election discussions on TV is security of women. Some girls talked about how secure they feel at night during navaratri in Gujrat. It is very relevent specially in the context of epidemic rape crimes in other parts of India.
RSM >>The biggest fan of Madhu Kishwar on this forum is surprisingly silent.
I have just logged in. Wait. Assuming you meant me.
Isn't it ironical that the people who lost all credibility with their ten year vicious propaganda are today worried about Madhu Kishwar losing her credibility?
The biggest fan of Madhu Kishwar on this forum is surprisingly silent.
We were groping all these years to read something credible,be it Tavleen sings,or shekhar guptas.et al.this article from ms MADHU PURNIMA KISHWAR is about the best article candidly written and presented,we have all seen how ms madhu kishwar used to be muzzled by the media anchors,whenever she tried to make her point,It is so refreshing ms kishwar to read your non biased artilce.
thank you once again madhuji
Finally, some justice is being done to Modi. A weaker man would have succumbed to such a sustained vilification campaign carried by the Congress and its sidekick, the Indian media. But every insult hurled at Modi has only strengthened him. My respect for the man has multiplied manifold, not just because he has tolerated such vile opponents, but also because he hasn't let such a campaign affect him and his state. The result is there for everyone to see; Gujarat zips ahead and others can only envy it.
The article is an eye opener for readers like me who have been far long being brain washed by false propoganda. Modi deserves praise for his commitments to his people.
Briillant article. Too good an article to be published in outlook.
Well said Ma'am.
In fact, many among the Modi-bashers brazenly allege that the Godhra train massacre was a VHP/BJP conspiracy, even though several known Congressmen have been convicted by the courts for that mass murder.
There indeed should be as extensive a probe into this ffrom a political angle as there was to the riots that succeeded it. Also the dubious role of the earlier Enquiry commissions which ruled the now proved arson to have actually been an accident should be investigated as alo the mandate provided to them by the then Railway Minister Laloo Prasad Yadav & accountability fixed for the erronous conclusions.
Dear Sir,
I often wonder why everybody - the politicians, media and all form of bleeding heart NGOs are so scared of Mr. Modi's rise to power again and again?
Do they not see the inclusive development and progress in his State over the last decade - and without any communal riots - while other States have had their share of these riots?
Perhaps they fear a change in the order will upset their cosy mutual back scratching arrangements!
Francois Gautier exposes Medha Patkar's explosive agenda!!
http://bhagatsinghkrantisena.blogspot.sg/search?q=NBA
>>His widely alleged complicity in the Muslim massacre - Anwaar
u did not say what you think of ethnic cleansing in Kashmir!!!
As is true of many of Madhu Kishwar's recent articles, this one too is slanted and polemical. She is clearly out to whitewash all of Modi's sins and give him a certificate of being a haloed super administrator. His widely alleged complicity in the Muslim massacre, his lies, deceptions and shameless cultivation of cult of personality are all given short shrift. She is putting her own credibility to risk with such hack jobs.
An extremely interesting and thought-provoking essay by a recognised intellectual.
The second part of the essay was far superior as it spoke of the importance and necessity of inclusive development.
To say, however, that the killing of Sikhs in 1984 somehow justifies (I don't know how) the killing of Hindus / Muslims in 2002 is an argument which will find few takers.
Finally, regarding the LTTE - please note that the Americans were planning to develop Trincomalee in Eastern Sri Lanka (one of the finest natural deep water harbours in the Indian Ocean) as a base for the US Navy. This would have practically cut off the Indian Navy's Eastern and Western Commands. The LTTE and others were propped up to ensure that this did not happen - realpolitik is unfortunately not Indian Journalism's strong point.
This piece tacitly acknowledges Modi's likely role for 2002 riots but tries to put things in perpective in the backdrop of numerous such government-sponsored riots in gujarat itself and across the country in the past. i appreciate this write-up and find it in a succor for people like me who are not really happy with Modi's perceived anti-Muslim shades but nevertheless believe that he must be a given the chance when the alternative is feudal and crony order propopagted by Gandhis. Even if one acknowledged for argument's sake that Modi had a hand in fuelling anti-Muslim riots in 2002, it is also a fact that he is an able administrator, pragmatic economist and above corruption. The fact that he has no family to promote is also to his credit. The state has been free from any riots since 2002 means that Modi has moved beyond the politic of riots.
He elicits such strong reactions from the old order for the simply reason that he is an outsider and threaten to shake the old, rotten world's foundations. The reigning order - and i include well known journalists, NGOs, and activist types in this -- is still more comfortable with Delhi politicians like Sushma Swaraj and Arun Jaitley; but the idea of a complete outlier taking over reigns of power poses a serious threat to their livelihood. Modi's outright refusal to coopt these largely venal crop has only fueled their dislike for him.
How ridiculous it is for people to accuse him of promoting personality cult while cheering for a family which has named every second state institution after its members. Even a failed prime minister like Rajiv Gandhi, who also encouraged anti-Sikh riots and never apologised -- has Metro station, numerous welfare projects named after him. And the man was awarded Bharat Ratna as well.
Modi deserves a much better treatment from his critics.