The true story of the Bhagyalakshmi temple (Mushroom Minarette, Dec 3) is that there was a silakaram (stone idol) from time immemorial at the site of the present temple. Bhagawati, a wife of Quli Qutub Shah, used to offer prayers here. After an outburst of plague, the Shah built the Charminar. Government endowment records are evidence of the temple’s existence for 200 years. The mim is playing dirty politics.

Chinmay, Hyderabad

When so-called photographic evidence from the past is presented, do people realise that photographs of the Charminar can be taken in such a way that the Bhagyalakshmi temple does not show?

Alakshyendra, Hyderabad

Photographic records of the Bhagyalakshmi temple do not exist because by the time photography was invented (early in the 19th century) the temple had been obscured by the construction of the Charminar over it.

Vineet Reddy, Hyderabad

The recent violence in Hyderabad was neither spontaneous nor sudden. It was the work of parties tapping into communal tension to generate a following. Also, the Bhagyalakshmi temple is a recent construction, and not an ancient shrine as claimed by the Hindu right wing.

K.S. Padmanabha, Secunderabad

I remember a temple in existence at the site of the present Bhagyalakshmi temple at least as far back as 1974.

Bowenpalle Venuraja Gopal Rao, Warangal

When shops encroached upon the Charminar, no one protested. People, and the authorities, have a problem only when temples—which many thousands believe sacred—come up again on sites where they stood hundreds of years ago before invading conquerors razed them and built mosques or memorial domes over them.

Paramvir Sawhney, Gurgaon

Sometime soon the BJP and the Sangh parivar will declare the site of the Charminar as the birthplace of some Hindu god/goddess or the other.

Jaykumar, Ahmedabad

A new temple has no business coming up at an ancient monument like the Charminar. It’s a failure on the part of the authorities that the temple was allowed to come up there.

Sriram N., Bangalore

Once upon a time, the Charminar did not exist. Why not, in the name of antiquity, revert things to that state?

Ashutosh Kaul, Toronto

 FedUp,

But secular people are well educated and affluent, so..

I do not want to sound like a politically correct romantic, but I have found the poor and lower classes more "broad minded". In Bombay slums you will find far more inter-religious( and   intercaste) marriages than among educated middle class. The hold of bigotry is decreasing as this middle class is being open to influences from all over and is getting enlightened. But secularism among middle class has more effect than secularism among the poor, I agree.

Saroja, I agree with your four points. Thank you.

Responding to an earlier post of yours - I do expect more from seculars than I expect from religious people. Religion is based on faith so I don't expect logic or reason from Hindutva or Islamic fanatics. But secular people are well educated and affluent, so we have an obligation to behave in a better way. Sometimes facts and logic will lead us to agree with the "Hindutva" position, sometimes with the "Islamic" position. So be it.

Satyamave jayate.

>> hindutva term was coined by certain people to describe themselves

But these days, it is used almost exclusively by self-styled seculars to describe others.

FedUp Indian,

In my opinion, a secular movement will say something like (I have amended your list a bit)

i) 59 persons, including 12 children, were burnt alive in Godhra by the horrific actions of a Muslim mob. It was no accident and nothing that is alleged to have happened on the platform justifies this mass murder. We want the criminals behind this to be caught and punished.

ii) Roughly 1,500 Muslims were killed by Hindu mob violence in the post-Godhra attacks. These people had nothing to do with the Godhra incident, and nothing that happened in Godhra can justify this pogrom. The people involved in these attacks must be caught and punished.

iii) There are allegations of prior conspiracies behind these attacks. We want a speedy and transparent investigations into these allegations and if found true, we want the masterminds to be caught and given exemplary punishment

iv) Whenever there is a gathering of a large number of people in an emotionally surcharged atmosphere, violence often erupts. We want a study of crowd management and riot control in other countries and implement their successful strategies here also. The government must study and implement measures to prevent such incidents from ever happening again. 

>> R.Saroja - "I have some comments to make but am saturated today"

FedUP - And I am FedUP

 FedUp,

I have some comments to make but am saturated today

Saroja, I am sorry if I misunderstood your stand on the Godhra incident.

There are seculars who argue that the entire incident was a "accident" caused by the kar-sevaks who were cooking food inside the compartment (the Banerjee commission suggested this).

http://communalism.blogspot.com/2005/01/godhra-train-fire-banerjee-committee.html

"...the Banerjee Committee believes the fire was 'accidental'. The report draws on the evidence of forensic experts and engineers to conclude that "at this stage... a preponderance of evidence (suggests) that the fire in coach S6 originated in the coach itself without any external input"; the report, in fact, indicates that the fire may have started due to cooking inside the train."

The fact that fires started in several compartments, and were put out in all but coach S-6 says this is nonsense, unless one believes that all the kar sevaks in the train were suddenly seized with an urge to fry samosa at the same time, and they all mishandled their kersone stoves or whatever at the same time. The fact that the Banerjee commission advanced this moronic theory tells you everything you need to know about the utter contempt that these people have for the common sense of mango people.

Other seculars use slippery language and describe the fire as an "accident" - when pressed on the point, they argue that even though the Muslim mob stopped the train, threw stones and acid bulbs at the compartments, and threw burning rags into several compartments, setting S-6 on fire, it is reasonable to describe the incident as an "accident" because the mob did not intend to kill the Hindus. This is an absurd argument. If I stab someone with a knife and he dies, I cannot claim it was an accident because I only intended to hurt him, not to kill him. There is also ample testimony that the crowd and the Muslim Congress neta there stopped fire-engines from reaching the burning compartment, so calling this an "accident" is obscene.

The focus on whether this was a "conspiracy" or not is misguided. Suppose it is proved that some Muslims in Godhra or even all over the world conspired to burn Hindus alive in Godhra. In what way does it justify the murder of innocent people like Mr. Ehsan Jafri, who no one has claimed is part of this alleged conspiracy?

Calling the Godhra incident an "accident" and diverting the discussion to the alleged "conspiracy" is simply an attempt by seculars to divert attention from the actions of the Muslim mob at Godhra, which were horrifying regardless of whether there was a conspiracy or not. A genuinely secular movement would say the following:

i) 59 Hindus, mostly women and children, were burnt alive in Godhra by the horrific actions of a Muslim mob. It was no accident and nothing that is alleged to have happened on the platform justifies this mass murder. We want the criminals behind this to be caught and punished.

ii) Roughly 1,500 Muslims were killed by Hindu mob violence in the post-Godhra attacks. These people had nothing to do with the Godhra incident, and nothing that happened in Godhra can justify this pogrom. The people involved in these attacks must be caught and punished.

iii) Incidents like Godhra and post-Godhra are common-place in pissholes like Pakistan but they cannot be allowed to happen in a secular, civilized country like India. The government must study and implement measures to prevent such incidents from ever happening again.

*********************

If your group said this unequivocally, a lot of people like me would have a better opinion about seculars. Instead, seculars whitewash Godhra with slippery language about "accidents" and divert attention to conspiracy theories and the brake system on the train, all of which are irrelevant and designed to draw attention away from what really happened in Godhra. Mango people like me have enough common sense to see through this nonsense and it only increases our contempt for this fake sickularism.

134 D/97

You keep posting so many links and you trust them as well. Good

Just because it happens to be developed using latest modern technology, disc from outside cant be rotated to stop train is not proper to say.

When an Alrms is activated from inside the same Alarms has to be deactivated by releasing that disc (So what we have inside is some kind of pulley system with pneumatic mechanism).. When we can deactivate the Alrms then why cant we can activate the same Alarm by rotating the disc? Hope you have seen this whole scenrio of pulling chain and train stop and what drivers do to make train run again.

Put this simple tricks in your blogs statment and see where it fits...

#132

Did you refer to me? Well the question is not how Railway alarm system works but how the alarm system that was in place on Feb 27, 2002 worked. If you follow the link in the post, you will get all the details required. 

 #130

Having been active in many signature campaigns, I realised early on that they do not achieve much along their said objective. But it works a lot as a propaganda/education mechanism. A lot of fence sitters get committed to what they sign. So separating hindu from hindutva is to be seen in this context. Unlike 'pseudosecular', which is a term bestowed on some by Shri Advani, hindutva term was coined by certain people to describe themselves. So let them keep it with all the pathetic specimens who are its products. Similarly separate muslim from islamist. Prestige of the label counts.

Small part of comment on Railway Alarm System has been posted, it seems that person who posted didnt verified on Internet how it works just did copy paste work. Concern person must google about control system ( or else refer book by Ogata) and Feedback signals and this will tell them how this Alarm system works...

Anwaar #123

FedUp is actually raising an important point, "Why balanced analysis and enlightenment are not all over the place?" and blames seculars because he sees them having a stake in it. Probably he is too young to know of the struggle that Jyoti Punwanis had to go through (I am familiar with her writings in Bombay papers in early 1990s) to make a space for secular viewpoint. Unlike communal viewpoint, secular viewpoint is plural. 

My guess is awareness of certain things dawned on him with Gujarat carnage and the TV coverage thereof. And since much of 1990s is not on line yet, he is seeing Gujarat 2002 as the beginning of everything that is wrong. 

#110

>>Instead of saying muslim violence etc., why don't you say islamist violence? I have found that it helps to distinguish between hinduism and hindutva. Maybe I am bleached by Macaulay based education system, but I find myself unable to take anyone seriously about the past when they are in denial about the present. Personally, recent history is good enough for me.

Coming to present, to ask a general electorate of a billion plus (looking to get rich at any cost) to make such fine distinctions that even Macaulay would have had a hard time making.

India has absorbed the democratic ethos (including subordination of Army to civilian government) well but secularism, not so much. Secularism in India will survive only if those in power have the will to enforce it, especially given the constant provocations from across the border. So, I put the blame squarely on repeated failures of the government and rampant corruption that makes people seek out their own.

Similarly, in Pakistan military is the root cause of the many evils afflicting it. Pakistani Army internally is organized along secular British ethos but likes to play cat and mouse game with both government and judiciary and has long history of winning. So, only counter-wieght to Army in Pakistan is the religion.

 Arun Kumar,

2 seats to 180 seats...

The 2 seats was because of communal votes going to Congress in 1984. 

" a grand reconciliation in a spirit of brotherhood and solidarity and respect for Hindus and Hinduism by volunteering to construct just one grand temple and shun coercive tactics?"

There was aleady a temple side by side with Babri Masjid when it was demolished along with Sita ki rasoyi etc. The argument that you give was also advanced by muslims like Shabana Azmi, Javed Akhtar etc., before the demolition of the mosque. The demolition and riots opened their eyes to the consequence of bully-appeasment (These are my words).

And here is another muslim voice, while criticizing the verdict as being flawed, asking for muslims to relinquish claim to the land at Ayodhya.  sabrang.com/cc/archive/2011/feb11/edit.html   and    

 www.indianexpress.com/news/seize-this-moment/692100/0

I am curious what is the "enlightened" Hindu response to above. Like the enlightened Pakistani Imran Khan, it cannot speak out against the bigots (except acknowledging it as reactionary which Imran Khan also does anyway), all the time heaping ridicule on "sickulars". If you are serious, you will address criticisms of seculars as self criticism coming with concrete solutions. If you go through this thread you will see ridiculous posts here by the likes of Ghai. I have not seen you criticizing that. 

 Arun Kumar,

I thought by modifying your first question, I had made your case stronger and then answered it. As far your second question is considered, I didn't answer it because I did not want to massacre you. You had asked, "... so many other religions all of whom have been at peace with Hinduism. The Jains, Parsees, Buddhists etc are far negligible in number. Have you heard them complaining against the Hindus?" .Left out Sikhs and Christians conveniently ? Or are you deaf? About the third question, I have anyway confessed inadequacy of knowledge and understanding to comment on what is happening all over the world.

Lets please rewind to the pre-Muhammad bin Qasim era,atleast we can have a united set of people in our country not bickering over the God they pray to. Then we can have Muslims in the Middle-East, Central Asia and Dharma adherents in India, East Asia, Confuciusism in China, Korea etc... Homogenous soceities of similar religious adherents.  God represents the omnipotent truth ad nothing more. @ the rate we are going, no 2 religions can co-exist in amity.

104/D-72---9/11 was an inside job by Jews and CIA- PROOF! 104/D-72

Prasanth
Melbourne, Australia

Today AIPAC is more powerful than Republicans or Democrats. It’s the most powerful force in Washington.

They literally own US Congress. If you own 435 Representatives and Senators you rule the world.
US Congress gave 29 standing ovations to arrogant bully Benjamin Netanyahu when he spoke in Congress on May 24, 2011--

>>But the local press has done its best to prevent this theory from being accepted, by not reporting these provocations despite eyewitness accounts available in the town.

Jihadis are always 'provoked' but others just engage in pogrom for no reason.

Fedup,

There is no real difference between what Saroja is saying and what Jyoti Punwani is saying. Jyoti believes that the act was "a gross over-reaction to provocations by the VHP/Bajrang Dal at Godhra station itself. But the local press has done its best to prevent this theory from being accepted, by not reporting these provocations despite eyewitness accounts available in the town."

 

>>...till Forensic lab came out with report denying the possibility of the train being burnt with petrol etc.

What?? Tehelka and Teesta jointly run a forensic lab?

@117/D-59 Saroja

I expected a "secular" answer and I did receive one. Secularism in India is the art of balancing a 1 gram block and a 1 ton block on a scale and make them appear as though they are of the same weight.

The fact of "belief systems based on diversity intolerance and coercion" was modified, the first question answered in half and the remaining 2 questions skipped. "Secularists" in India avoid the uncomfortable, do not like the harsh glare of the truth and hide from the obvious all in the name of the "balancing act" in the psuedo-secularism circus.

The Ayodhya movement was a reactionary movement due to the excesses of psuedo-secularism so much so that a 2 seat party moved to become a 180 seat mainstream party. After thousand years of religious oppression of the Hindus and destruction of thousands of temples due to a diversity intolerant and coercive belief system and eventual partioning of Bharat, was there ever any attempt at a grand reconciliation in a spirit of brotherhood and solidarity and respect for Hindus and Hinduism by volunteering to construct just one grand temple and shun coercive tactics?

And now if a small temple near Charminar is used by Hindus for worship, it becomes a topic for the psuedo-secularists to work themselves up into a hysteria ! What a paradox !

Fedup,

Even if there were provocations from karsevaks, people should have complained to SM if they thought that a girl was abducted. the stoning forced people to pull down shutters and block door and most pbobably fire from a fireball thrown from outside spread very fast resulting in a large death figure. I don't know what writing of mine prompted you into thinking that I was denying muslims had set fire to S-6? 

 Fedup,

I never denied that the S-6 was burnt up by a muslim mob. It was whether there was a conspiracy (why else should false witnesses be planted?) and petrol was thrown inside. There are several eye witness accounts about burning rags being thrown from outside into some other compartments also and fortunately they were put off by the passengers before it developed into something big. I am not defending arson at all. Please give as big a punishment even to those who were pelting only stones and not burning rags. But spicing up of arson as a conspiracy was done to justify the pogrom that followed. As far as I know, no sickular said anything against the charges in Godhra arson till Forensic lab came out with report denying the possibility of the train being burnt with petrol etc.

"The burning of coach S-6 of the Sabarmati Express on February 27, 2002 was not the result of any pre-planned conspiracy by Muslims. It was not due to petrol or inflammable fluid that coach S-6 burnt down but due to the flash fire that followed the initial ignition." Saroja

You need to talk with Jyoti Punwani about your findings. Ms. Punwani is a well-known free-lance journalist and big time sickular whose articles on Godhra and other communal issues have appeared in the Hindu and the Indian Express, among other places. A few years ago, an article she wrote about Godhra caught my attention and I had an email exchange with her about it. The gist of her article is that the kar sevaks had provoked Godhra Muslims into burning the train by (i) forcing a Muslim tea-vendor to say "jai Ram ji ki" and (ii) trying to kidnap a Muslim girl from the platform only to be foiled when she cried out. She says these were "grave provocations" and comes close to blaming Hindus for provoking Muslims to incinerate 59 Hindus, mostly women and children. Remember - this is not some foaming mullah in Pakistan - this is an educated Indian sickular (last week, these people were condemning Israel for "disproportionate force").

http://hindu.com/2002/04/15/stories/2002041500161000.htm

The entire article is worth reading if only to see what some of us have said all along - sickularism is the intellectualization of dhimmitude. Sharia law says that a dhimmi who strikes a Muslim loses the protection of the state and forfeits his life (see "Reliance of the Traveler"). Our sickulars have internalized this completely even as they hide it under a veneer of Gramsci. Even Outlook magazine was appalled.

http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?218223

In her article, Ms. Punwani mentions that Maulvi Umarji, a Muslim leader, read out an apology from the Muslim community for the train burning the very next day at the District Collector's office (for his trouble, this gentleman was promptly jailed as a co-conspirator and only recently released by the courts). I wrote to Ms. Punwani and asked her if this meant that the Muslim leaders were acknowledging that Muslims set fire to the train. She was kind enough to reply that yes, both the Hindu and Muslim communities in Godhra acknowledged that Muslims had set the train on fire, and that there was a long history of burnings of people in Godhra.

You can find her email address the same way I did (Google) and ask her about this yourself.

Finally, I don't know what you mean by "I have seen you [Fedup] post under different persona". I have never posted anything on Outlook under any name other than FedUp Indian, and I don't see what I have to gain by posting under different names. If there are other people who express similar opinions or use the same quotes, perhaps they agree with me and echo what I wrote or, what is more likely, what I say is nothing unusual because there are a whole lot of Fed Up Indians out there sick of sickularism.

Arun Kumar,

 >>>>belief systems whose core philosophy is based on intolerance of diversity and coercion 

My response to the above even if the coersion bit is dropped and intolerance is replaced by intolerance/contempt -

Living in the present, I know of atleast three such strands in India

1. Islamism -represented by SIMI, jamaat etc.I know the sort of puritanical slogans painted by SIMI in 1980s, even before Shah Bano issue became prominent, so do not think of it as a reaction to hindutva. Personally, I have understood it through the writings of Javed Anand and here is a sample - sabrang.com/cc/archive/2012/July2012/edit.html  . More recently, there was a controversy over entry of women to Haji Ali Dargah. Please go through the comments section. news.outlookindia.com/allfeedbacks.aspx Note that the ones who found nothing wrong with the position of dargah management (AK Ghai for example) are also uncritical admirers of Modi.

2. Hindutva exemplified by Ayodhya movement - www.manushi-india.org/pdfs_issues/PDF%20files%2076/religion_at_the_service_of_nationalism.pdf

3. Maoism  - eg R. Guha who has often spoken against the tendency of some people to romanticize maoists, here analyses the reasons behind the rise of maoism www.telegraphindia.com/1100226/jsp/opinion/story_12145914.jsp

@Saroja- Sorry, I dont argue with conspiracy theorists.. no point....whatsoever!

Now , I am still curious to know about your viewpoints about 9/11 And Indian parliament attack? Who do you think are responsible for these?

>> Anyway, Jeyanthi has not withdrawn her statement.

I don't give a rat's ass to what she said, and even less to whether she withdrew the statement or not.

I, like any other law abiding fellow, shall accept the court verdict. If people have problems with that, they are free to appeal.

As for conspiracy theorists, they can go through detailed allegations of Swamy, where he accuses Sonia of being a KGB agent, and responsible for the deaths of Sanjay, Indira, and I think even Rajiv.

@110/D-8 Saroja,

You have skipped to answer the basic premise of my argument about belief systems whose core philosophy is based on intolerance of diversity and coercion. Why does only a particular belief system in India comes in conflict with Hinduism?  India is/has been home to so many other religions all of whom have been at peace with Hinduism. The Jains, Parsees, Buddhists etc are far negligible in number. Have you heard them complaining against the Hindus? Many of them rose to high positions in the public and private space.

Why is only a particular belief system exceptional? This belief system has a conflict not only with Hindus in India, but with every other belief systems all over the world.

I would prefer a straight answer and not with "secular" embellishments.

 #93 Whatsinaname,

Thanks for the info. The Indian Express link from which the info was got has this gem-

Pawar said the polarisation of those days was creeping back after the July 11 train explosions. The bombs had been planted in first-class compartments of the Western Railway suburban line to target those from the higher salaried sections, as very few Muslims would be in those compartments.

I have heard some similar BS that the bombs were planted in first class compartments to target gujaratis since they are rich etc. It is made by people with rich imagination and no experience of train travel in Mumbai locals. Actually there are ateast 2 first class general compartments in Mumbai local trains, one 3rd from southern end and the other 4th from northern end. The bombs were all placed in the compartment 4th from the northern end.  At churchgate station there is a subway exit from the northern end first class coaches. First class coaches are less crowded than the second class ones.

Anyway, Jeyanthi has not withdrawn her statement. 

Prasanth,

Wow. a fan troll with absolute zero content. Troll on! 

Ghai,

>>  distributed Terror fund to the tune of Rs 5 lacs and made entries in her Account Diary.

I can't find any reference for it. Can you fill me in? Even if true, it would not justify a fake encounter.

 Fedup Indian & Arun Kumar,

You both use same arguments and same quotes! Same Ur -mind at work? 

Where you and I part ways is in our priorities. You want to focus on places like Gujarat, where 1000-2000 Muslims were the victims of Hindu violence in 2002. But justice is being done there - even high level ministers like Maya Kodnani have been jailed.

Let us call things by their proper names. I have done no work on Gujarat and have been educating myself on what has been achieved in Gujarat and how by the support group to victims like Teesta Setalvad & CJP, Mukul Sinha & JSM and by Tehelka sting operations etc. Just commenting and trying to counter the massive ignorance and smearing aimed at activists does not make me an activist and trivialises the amount of work involved and commitment required of true activists. At best I have been on and off very low key dilletante volunteer & at times suicidal loudmouth; in other words, an ordinary citizen. 

About secularism, Fedup, I have seen you commenting under different persona, & I do not like putting down people, but I find you very smart, well read, engaging, with a sense of humour, with values etc, but not very intelligent about things Indian. Your rants do not have that "lived in" tinge. I would hazard a guess that you do not live in India despite the Hyderabad tag or atleast you "came of age"outside India. My attitude towards "secularism" has been shaped by my experiences. When Shah Bano issue came up, I first entered into activism, by drafting a petion against the bill and literally talking to hundreds of people while getting their signatures. That was the first time in my life that I experienced anti muslim sentiments in other people in what I thought was a pure gender issue. Well, the campaign did create a minor flutter because of the other names and place, and I found myself an unlikely local shiv sena heroine.For me mid1980s to mid 2000s was a nightmare of religion. I agree that in Gujarat a ex minister is in jail and it has come about because of activists, and in my bones, NOW, I do not feel threatened by hindutva. But it was not always so. Suffice to say that there were times I was scared for my life. That time has passed. For you it might look like march of history.

It is not that I don't care for what happened in the past of which I am frankly quite ignorant. But there is a wealth of info available from closer history, of totalitarianism and closed minds, of revolutions and frenzies. My priority is not Gujarat. That is presumptuous. There are good people taking care and things are on the right course. My priority right now is educate myself, understand internet. I am bothered by Pakistan and the uncritical adulation of Imran Khan. My prognosis is very bad after the assassinations of the two ministers. It is easier to sympathise with a young girl Malala, nothing will change because of that.

Instead of saying muslim violence etc., why don't you say islamist violence? I have found that it helps to distinguish between hinduism and hindutva. Maybe I am bleached by Macaulay based education system, but I find myself unable to take anyone seriously about the past when they are  in denial about the present. Personally, recent history is good enough for me. 

Why out of no where this issue has come up now. Whatever it is why did Owaisi not raise it for all these years. As an old Hyderabadi will tell you that for long Hindus have been going to the Char Minar complex to worship something there onbviously not to offer namaz. And if those whose "love for heritage" is offended then what about thousands of other heritage sites where a mosque now stands.

Surely this all too familiar political chicanery to garner Muslim votes and nothing else ...

Bowenpalle,

If L-e-T had sent Ishrat to assassinate Modi, then according to your theory, they would not have claimed her in the first place.

but Ishrat was not a highly placed political personality. '
Faruki

But she was highly respected LeT Module Terror Chief who distributed Terror fund to the tune of Rs 5 lacs and made entries in her Account Diary with her own hand .Her hand writing has been tallied .
But surely 'Mein na manoos'will not accept any truth  .

" @Saroja- As I said problem with you people is that, no amount of logic or common sense can make you see the truth."

Exactly. It is waste of time and space to engage people use articles from websites like Sabrang and Tehelka to discredit and criticize a court verdict. 

 BVG Rao,

A 19 year old can murder (I am not writing specifically about Isharat or anyone) but punishment for below 21 criminal cannot be tried by an ordinary court. It has to be referred to a juvenile court.

A "juvenile" as defined in the Juvenile Justice Act 200 is a person under the age of 18 NOT 21.

 @Saroja- As I said problem with you people is that, no amount of logic or common sense can make you see the truth. Because people like you live in a make believe universe with certain pre-conceived notions ,(that somehow all sorts of Islamist terror must be defended or whitewashed etc). Therefor I am not even going to attempt to refute your "Karsevaks all committed mass suicide" theory here. Instead I will give you some very 'credible' links and 'investigations' in to some other unrelated incidents. I know you will enjoy that! Good luck

1) 9/11 was an inside job by Jews and CIA-    PROOF!

http://www.antiwar.com/justin/j030802.html  

http://www.serendipity.li/wot/pop_mech/reply_to_popular_mechanics.htm

2) NASA moon landing was a hoax- Niel Amstrong never went to moon!! Here is 'proof'

http://www.unmuseum.org/moonhoax.htm

3) Aliens landed on EARTH!! Here is 'proof'

http://www.pakalertpress.com/2011/11/29/researchers-alien-skulls-prove-earth-was-invaded/

Of course we all know a train load of kar sevaks committed mass suicide on Godhra 10 years back!!!!! No need to post a link since You already provided one!!

@Saroja- Just out of curiosity, what is your view on Indian parliament attack?? Was it a covert op by RAW, IB and Mossad in conjunction with Sangh Parivar?  Please enlighten us. Thank you.

@100D/63@Anwaar

I thought you understood that I was writing about alleged assassination attempt on Mr.Narendra Modi.

A 19 year old can murder (I am not writing specifically about Isharat or anyone) but punishment for below 21 criminal cannot be tried by an ordinary court. It has to be referred to a juvenile court.

About the claim of LeT , they later retracted their statement about this girl Isharat Jahan. LeT or another terrorist organization follow the same path. They always deny a high-value political target (since it involved an assassination attempt on Mr.Narendra Modi.)
 

About the encounter itself as to its genuineness , I do not know but police resorting to fake encounters is very common. One may see how many fake encounters they did and still doing in AP. With fake encounters a Govt. cannot solve a socio-economic problem.
At the same time, we cannot say that every encounter is a fake encounter. Just look at the number of Police personnel died in encounters !! may be 3000 in AP alone, it is as simple as that.

For example, during 26/11 Mumbai terrorist attacks , two police officers died in an encounter with Kasab and his accomplice Ismail ( not his real name, in fact real name is unknown !!!). But political farce started when former CM of Maharastra Mr. Antulay ( a wretched creature , his face reveals it more than his words) and Dig Vijay Singh , the opportunist politician who may probably be mentally challenged.

Same is the case with Batla encounter where a police officer , an encounter specialist was seriously wounded and died later in an ICU of a hospital. But all most all religious groups of minorities claimed that it was a fake encounter even while half-a-dozen TV station crew were covering the news. This is most absurd.

As for your claim that terrorist groups vie over each other to claim some assassin as their own , I shall totally disagree. If it is an incident of terrorizing like for example blasting an IED in a veg market or at a Hindu temple or Masjid or a public place like Gopal Chatbhandar(HYD) or a cafe at Pune , you might have observed that terrorists always claimed , sometimes even warning the impending danger by an e-mail or threatening to do more. But for assassination attempts , remember,  terrorist organizations never claim

.

>> It is this utter indifference among Indians of all stripes and the absurd inversion of priorities among the secular brigade that enrages even people like me.

Brilliant post!

>>It was not uncommon for as many as three or four terrorist groups to claim a terrorist act a few years ago, but if you think I am going to spend my time on Google in response to your ignorance, you are mistaken.

It is clear you have not been taught to read the question before answering.

Bowenpalle,

What you say is interesting, but Ishrat was not a highly placed political personality. The vast majority of terrorist attacks are not the kinds of assassinations that you mentioned.

Sandilya,

>> The holy Quran enjoins on the believers to treat the infidels as unequal.

What does the Quran have to do with this discussion? Your comments are getting sillier and sillier!

@ "About what happened hundreds of years ago, I really can't care." This attitude is wrong.

What happened hundreds of years ago, happened as a consequence of a certain belief system whose core philosophy is based on intolerance of diversity and coercion. The same belief system still exists today in a more virulent form. A new set of people does not reset the system as long as the belief system remains the same. Effect is an output of a certain cause. The cause remaining the same, the output will be no different. Time and people are just witness.

The British rightly said that Indians (read Hindus) have a very poor sense of history. Those who do not know history are condemned to repeat it. God helps those to help themselves. The tragedy is that the descendants of the Hindu victims of the historical oppression are the most passionate apologists of the oppressors, helped in large part by the "secular" Hindus who have been bleached dry by the McCaulay based education system.

@ANWAAR @89D/21
It is generally believed that terrorist groups do not claim if a highly placed political personality was assassinated. It is one of the most  important principles to understand for the students of criminal science.

For example Tigers never claimed Rajiv Gandhi’s assassination, until very late , many years after Prabhakaran apologized.

Same is the case with Indira Gandhi' assassination, Mahatma Gandhi's assassination, John.F.Kennedy's  assassination or that of Abraham Lincoln. Nearer home Zail-ul-haq's assassination or that of Benazir Bhutto.

For example whatever organization was behind Indira Gandhi's assassination it had cleverly covered up its tracks. In "profiling" there is yet another way of looking at and that  is to observe who should have benefited. This shall lead to the prime one that is Pakistan and second one USA (considering politics at the time ) .

In criminal " profiling" ( which is a highly scientific study now, US universities offer specialized courses , though it is totally absent in India ) of a murder of a high "value" political target, it is important to remember that organizations never claim an assassination as a rule.
 

"About what happened hundreds of years ago, I really can't care." Saroja

I care, but only because Santayana was right when he said those who forget the past are condemned to repeat it. The Hindoo, as the British observed famously, has a sense of the past but no sense of history, which is why we have learnt nothing from our terrible history.

But in a larger sense, I agree with you. No one living today is responsible for what happened in the past. You are responsible for your actions. Not for your community's actions or your ancestors' actions or anything else. I also believe that individuals should be judged as individuals - the jails of India are surely filled to the brim with evil people of all communities - and that all citizens of India, regardless of their caste, religions or anything else, should be treated equally, and if you want to fight for that, I am with you.

Where you and I part ways is in our priorities. You want to focus on places like Gujarat, where 1000-2000 Muslims were the victims of Hindu violence in 2002. But justice is being done there - even high level ministers like Meera Kodnani have been jailed. Meanwhile, the entire Hindu and Sikh communities in Pakistan are being exterminated by Muslim violence, those who can are fleeing to India recounting horrific tales of brutality and violence, and the only discussion I see in India is whether India, being a secular country, can legally given refuge to Hindu and Sikh Pakistanis!

If the Israelis kill 50 Palestinians in Gaza, our government rushes up to issue denunciations about "disproportionate force". But thousands of Hindus and Sikhs are being killed, forcibly converted, raped and ethnically cleansed in Pakistan, and the only statement we get is about how "confidence building measures must continue regardless of road bumps on the way" as some moronic government spokesman wrote in Outlook a few weeks ago.

It is this utter indifference among Indians of all stripes and the absurd inversion of priorities among the secular brigade that enrages even people like me.

 >>> It seems that when it comes to Muslim terrorists, they are innocent even if proven guilty. And when it comes to Hindutva terrorists like Savarkar, they are guilty even when proven innocent.

WHATS IN A NAME

The holy Quran enjoins on the believers to treat the infidels as unequal. So its not the fault of Muslims but the teaching they are taught.
Thanks to the white washing by Marxist historians, they  successfully white washed the great oppression and unequal treatment of Hindus, the majority in their own country, under the Muslim rule.
Till the British arrived, there was no equality under law, a tenet we all fail to acknowledge the Brits for.Time the History taught in the schools is written and taught objectively.

>> If there was a “conspiracy” in Godhra, it was not by the Muslims. Ashish Khetan picks apart Judge Patel’s verdict and shows how a devious lie was constructed

Just yesterday, the resident jehadi was sanctimoniously preaching about everyone being presumed innocent till proven guilty (though of course he refuses to extend that courtesy to Modi. Also, does this logic apply to Osama ji and Dawood ji).

It seems that when it comes to Muslim terrorists, they are innocent even if proven guilty. And when it comes to Hindutva terrorists like Savarkar, they are guilty even when proven innocent.

>> Sorry, I missed that. What did he say?

On 11 July 2006, the Chief Minister of Maharashtra during the blasts, Sharad Pawar, admitted, on record, that he had "deliberately misled" people following the 1993 Bombay blasts by saying there were "12 and not 11" explosions, adding the name of a Muslim-dominated locality to show that people from both communities had been affected.[26] He tried to justify this deception by claiming that it was a move to prevent communal riots by falsely portraying that both Hindu and Muslim communities in the city had been affected adversely. He also admits to lying about evidence recovered and misleading people into believing that some of it pointed to the Tamil Tigers as possible suspects.[26]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1993_Bombay_bombings#Aftermath

 >>Didn't Sharad Pawar deliberately lie after the Bombay blasts to prevent rioting?

Sorry, I missed that. What did he say?

>> From 8.30 a.m. when the Godhra attack on the Sabarmati Express took place until 7.30 p.m. that evening, repeated statements by the Godhra district collector, Jayanthi Ravi relayed on Doordarshan and Akashwani (radio) stated that "the incident was not pre-planned, it was an accident."

Didn't Sharad Pawar deliberately lie after the Bombay blasts to prevent rioting? Was Ravi following the same formula?

The courts have upheld the conspiracy theory, and ruled out the accident angle. Unless a higher court overtuns the verdict, that's the truth, no matter the conspiracy theories woven by Khaitan or some other "secular".

Prasanth,

About Godhra arson -

From 8.30 a.m. when the Godhra attack on the Sabarmati Express took place until 7.30 p.m. that evening, repeated statements by the Godhra district collector, Jayanthi Ravi relayed on Doordarshan and Akashwani (radio) stated that "the incident was not pre-planned, it was an accident." It was only after 7-7.30 p.m., when CM Narendra Modi spoke and called it a ‘pre-planned, violent act of terrorism’ that the official version changed.
As we have seen above, investigating officials have yet to find any proof of the Godhra atrocity being pre-planned. Nonetheless, Modi, Union home minister LK Advani and others continue to reiterate the distorted version of the motive behind the incident at Godhra. When and why the government’s version changed needs serious investigation because it is widely believed that it is the ‘pre-planned, violent act of terrorism’ theory, pronounced by politicians and given a huge splash by much of the Gujarati press, which provided the lethal charge to the ‘backlash’.

 (This reporter has been told about a confidential meeting between the top brass of the BJP cabinet, the VHP, the RSS and the Bajrang Dal on the evening of February 27, allegedly to plan details of the carnage that was to follow. (See ‘Police’ section.) If true, this might offer some clue as to why the official version underwent a dramatic shift)

The train then started moving but stopped again, coming to a halt near the ‘A’ cabin.
How did the train stop near the ‘A’ cabin?
Six months after the incident, the Gujarat government extracted two confessions, from Anwar Kalandar and another Muslim boy. They ‘confessed’ that they had stopped the train by boarding the running train and rotating the ‘alarm chain disc’ from outside.
Kalandar subsequently withdrew his confession, claiming it was extracted under torture. However, what is even more significant is the information that since 1995 the railways have modified the design of the alarm chain pulling system (ACP) to curb its misuse. (To escape a check, ticketless passengers jumped off/on the train by rotating the disc from outside to stop the train beyond platform limits.) This fact obviously escaped the Gujarat police’s attention while they were extracting a confession from Kalandar.
On an enquiry made of the railway authorities by the JSM during commission proceedings it was learnt that all 18 coaches of the Sabarmati Express possessed the modified alarm chain system. Therefore the train’s vacuum brakes could not have been activated by turning the alarm disc from outside. The ACP can only be operated from inside the coaches and corrected from outside.

...What did the district superintendent of police, Raju Bishankumar Bhargav, see inside coach S-6?
Bhargav’s deposition before the commission is very important so as to comprehend the severity of the fire and the speed with which it spread. He said that he had reached the burning coach at about 8.30 a.m. i.e. barely 15-17 minutes after the fire began.
Bhargav said he saw people with blackened faces and with some burn injuries to the head, coming out of the coach. He saw 10 or 12 passengers coming out of the coach; they were coming out of the coach door on the Godhra town side. The injuries that he noticed were on the upper part of passengers’ bodies. He did not notice any injuries below the waist area.

...........Ø The burning of coach S-6 of the Sabarmati Express on February 27, 2002 was not the result of any pre-planned conspiracy by Muslims. It was not due to petrol or inflammable fluid that coach S-6 burnt down but due to the flash fire that followed the initial ignition. The luggage caught fire thereafter and burnt the coach at a slower rate.
Ø The commission should order a fresh investigation by a body of experts who have a special knowledge of fire in enclosed spaces.

....If there was a “conspiracy” in Godhra, it was not by the Muslims. Ashish Khetan picks apart Judge Patel’s verdict and shows how a devious lie was constructed

This post will become too long. Read all here including Tewatia report and the Tehelka sting operation   hope-and-hope.blogspot.in/2012/10/gujarat-2002-godhra.html 

RSM,

>>  just one instance where terrorist groups have raced with each other to claim ownership of an imaginary assassination attempt.

It was not uncommon for as many as three or four terrorist groups  to claim a terrorist act a few years ago, but if you think I am going to spend my time on Google in response to your ignorance, you are mistaken.

Fedup,

>> Condemnation of Muslim extremism is muted not just in India but all over the world.

This is false, but whatever condemnation is meted out to Muslims will never be enough to quench the raging fires of hate in the hearts of the Internet Hindus. But do carry on using this forum for your continuing hate prachar!

 Fedup Indian #85,

Shall I tell you something?  Till a few months back I was not even aware that some feel the need that Indians should apologize for what is happening in other countries. But yes, if a section feel the need to protest over what is happening elsewhere, they should also feel responsible for the wrongs done by those for whom they are fighting. About what happened hundreds of years ago, I really can't care. Even if it is established that I am granddaughter of Hitler or Stalin, I do not feel responsible for what their evil. Except in that, I do not want the sort of evil that came through them should ever happen again. And if in my country there is any sign of such things coming, to the best of my abilities and understandings, I shall fight it.

That way I feel responsible for what is happening in Kashmir and Assam and I must confess to a lot of ignorance on my part over these issues. Now Pandits have slowly started to return and that is how it should be. Also possible human right abuse cases are being investigated instead of being swept under the carpet. www.indianexpress.com/news/-a-thousand-ft-deep-gorge-where-crows-are-eating-corpses--and-other-tales-from-kashmir/970656/0  

>> Stupid argument!! How old was Kasab when he entered the jihad school? Osama ji started at 22. Omar Khadr was 15 years old. There are ample reports of 10-15 year olds taking to jihad in Pakistan and Afghanistan. What could have been the average age of those resorting to intafada in Kashmir?

Don't bombard him with facts. There are more facts in a few sentences than he learned in his entire Madrassa education.

That is why he gets unhinged and makes stupid statements like

A fake encounter would be criminal

So instead of answering the question as to what she was doing in the company of Pakis, he starts talking about the encounter.

Maybe he thinks the forum is like his jehad school, where dishonesty and lying are taught and appreciated.

"..according to Javed Anand one of the reasons why many secular hindus do not condemn muslim extremism vigorously is because they feel guilty about atrocities against muslims. He calls for everyone to condemn extremism of every hue vigorously." Saroja

I agree with Mr. Anand's call to condemn all forms of extermism but I believe his diagnosis of the problem is mistaken. Condemnation of Muslim extremism is muted not just in India but all over the world, and it is because people have come to expect Muslims to behave like savages and are not surprised when they do. If someone is torn apart by hyenas, we don't condemn the hyenas - we expect them to behave like wild animals do - and we are more likely to wonder why that person was foolish enough to venture into the jungle. Conversely, if a cow or a horse goes on a rampage, we wonder what triggered a normally mild animal to act in that way.

Some examples:

A few months ago, a group of Palestinians murdered a Jewish family in Itamar, even beheading their little three-month old daughter. The BBC did not even report this incident. Suppose a group of Israeli soldiers had beheaded a little Muslim girl. You would hearing about that in 2250 AD.

Similarly, prominent Muslim clerics like the imam of the Grand Mosque in Saudi Arabia routinely refer to Jews as "pigs and monkeys" (it's from that "holy" Koran). The grand Mufti of Jerusalem recently gave a speech in which he reminded people of Muhammad's prophecy that "Judgment Day will not come until Muslims kill all the Jews." There was little criticism of these clerics, least of all from Muslims. But if the Pope or the Archbishop of Canterbury had called, say, Hindus "pigs and monkeys" and said we needed to be exterminated, the biggest condemnation would have come from Christians themselves, and that cleric would be removed from office the next day.

In Mali, Sudan and Mauritania, Muslim Arabs are still hunting down and enslaving African Christians and animists. But this does not get much publicity. The slave trade of America, which ended more than 100 years ago, is discussed more today than the Muslim slave trade of today.

This sets up a very unfortunate dynamic. Since criticism of this kind of horrific behaviour is muted, Muslims feel free to continue behaving this way while their slick propagandists in non-Muslim countries pose as victims and harp on any guilt feelings the rest of the world may have. This is not to say that all Muslims act like savages - far from it. But all this foul "apes and pigs" stuff, rampant terrorism, moronic fatwas, calls to genocide, religiously blessed murder for apostasy and blasphemy etc. are found in only one religion in the world today, and it is time for the rest of us to demand that it needs to end.

And if I am wrong and it does come down to guilt, let me know when Muslims express any guilt for the slaughter of millions of Hindus, Sikhs and others over the centureis who were killed because we were kaffirs and idolaters, for the senseless and barbaric destruction of thousands of temples and monasteries all over India, for the genocide of millions of Hindus in East Pakistan in 1971, for the extermination of ancient Hindu and Sikh communities in Pakistan that is ongoing *today*, and for the complete ethnic cleansing of Hindus and Sikhs from Kashmir. As we have heard even from the moderates on this forum, none of this ever happened!

 @@PRASANTH, MELBOURNE,

The poor rate of criminal conviction in India as against the US owes much to the state of police force here. The fault is not entirely police's. It is a complex issue of poor quality of man power, poor leadership and antiquated infrastructure, too few policemen for the task on hand, political interference and of course lack of rigor in the investigation due to poor training in law and forensic sciences.

You must have heard that some of the best outgoing students and ivy school grads in USA choose to join CIA / FBI out of their own motivation and aptitude. Did we ever hear management grads from IIMs joining the police? Even the IPS is not getting  better brains as it was the case earlier. With such poor compensation as is offered to the officer class in the govt. service, the best don't get to choose govt services especially the police force which unfortunately doesn't carry real prestige at lower levels. I have heard fathers of pretty girls refusing to give their girls to IPS officers in marriage telling that police only take orders and by job they are subordinates !! That mindset should change of course.

@BOWENPALLE VENURAJA GOPAL RAO.
I agree with you, my argument was not for a lawless trigger happy police force but on the contrary.
>>police go wrong many times. If the courts do not find any evidence, the suspect has to be set free.>>
Yes, and that's how it should be. It is court's job to free the suspect if prosecution can’t prove their case. Having said that, in India criminal conviction rate is abnormally low including terror cases (If my memory is correct less than 25%). Which means more than 80% of terror suspects and criminal suspects walk free from our courts (no doubt many of them are truly innocent & many of them not so innocent) Hence the argument for a radical police reforms- As I said before, take the example of USA. FBI made many terror arrests in USA during last couple of years (many of them entrapments). FBI made sure they have done all the arrests lawfully and got proper arrest warrants, search warrants etc from courts and made sure they have a water tight case. Result? Almost every single one of the arrested terror suspect pleaded guilty in the court. Why? Because, their case was so tight, that the culprit had only 2 options, either deny the crimes and risk the death penalty OR plead guilty and accept a long life sentence. Naturally all terrorists chose the latter path, Hence we don’t see many Anwars, Sarojas and Jamia Mila teachers shedding tears for arrested 'innocent muslim youths' in USA
But what is happening in India?? Every single terror suspect deny their crime and plead innocence in our courts- hence even Ajmal Kasab said he was innocent!!! It’s like no one killed Jessica (or No one made the blasts)!!! Our prosecution do not plan ahead and end up torturing the suspects and not recording the witness accounts properly (like any other govt dept). Naturally courts will throw out the cases and release the suspects. Hence we need to setup world class police training institutes with foreign help.
And Sadvi Pragya and Col Purohit- I don’t know whether they are guilty or not (i hope they are not)….. but I suspect they will be freed by supreme court eventually (even if they are guilty)….

@Sandilya- 100s of readers already commented abour Guardian’s lies- don’t think they care,
 

>>BJP would have done the same thing if it was in Congress's place.

Congress stooges are just shameless liars. CAG had raised questions on the Centaur Hotel disinvestment. Instead of pasting motives, the NDA gave point by point rebuttal following which the CAG was silenced. Yet it didn't stop UPA from ordering a CBI inquiry.

Anyway Congress toadies derive their morals from the Congress itself. Hence even when the party is caught indulging in fraud, deceit, loot of humongous proportions etc, they will still defend it by saying BJP 'would' have done the same thing under the circumstances. Such responses esentially shows their character.

>>Terrorist groups race with each other to claim some operational ownership

>>Really? And what operation was this? The operation of getting killed in a fake encounter? Just justifications are so pathetic!

>>The imaginary assassination attempt on Modi.

Ok, now give us just one instance where terrorist groups have raced with each other to claim ownership of an imaginary assassination attempt.

@@Prasanth

Prasanth,
You may be right about the persons you are discussing but police go wrong many times. If the courts do not find any evidence, the suspect has to be set free.

Yes, you are right , that "x" or this "y" had escaped to Saudi and proved to be a terrorist , which off course all the while police were insisting but let free by court etc., etc.,

The point is about a law to protect innocents. To be or not to be that is the question. How do you want it to function? Police is a highly corrupt force inspite of some of the brilliant officers in that dept. . And yet do you want to completely rely on it? Do you think Sadvi Pargna and Col.Purohit are really culprits? There were at least half-a-dozen hyderabadi muslim boys who were tortured for months in various police stations and finally let free by police themselves!! Is that professionalism?. It had become evident as later events proved that these boys were innocent!!

If some day you and I were arrested just because we happen to be at a wrong place, at a wrong time and with a record of criticizing all in power, there will be no one to protect us but the law
 

Bonita,

>> If you can't shake a witness' evidence, try and discredit him....

BJP would have done the same thing if it was  in Congress's place.

RSM,

>>  And what operation was this?

The imaginary assassination attempt on Modi. Modi and his favorite police officer Vanzara were obsessed by this.

Irreverent,

>> What was this "college girl" doing with alleged Pakistanis and a convert with (at least) two passports?

None of your stupid arguments impressed either Magistrate Tamang or any of the other investigating agencies. A fake encounter would be criminal even if she aroused suspicion unless the safety of the police officers was at risk. But this must be beyond the understanding of a shameless supporter of fake encounters like yourself.

 Anwaar,

But asking whether he has committed errors or has a political agenda is perfectly legitimate.

If the  CAG has erred, dispute his report on facts. Unfortunately, this is not the approach of those whom his reports have made uncomfortable. Since his reports cannot be faulted on substance, the only alternative is to make aspersions on his integrity and ascribe political motives. Needless to say, no one has come out with any proof or evidence to substantiate these allegations that Vinod Rai has a political agenda. If you have some please share it with the rest of us.

i said earlier and I repeat - If you can't shake a witness' evidence, try and discredit him so as to weaken the evidentiary value of his testimony. That unfortunately, is what your party of choice and you are doing.

 >> "You need to introspect yourself on how you got yourself so convinced that this 19 year old college girl from Mumbai was a terrorist." - Anwaar

Stupid argument!! How old was Kasab when he entered the jihad school? Osama ji started at 22. Omar Khadr was 15 years old. There are ample reports of 10-15 year olds taking to jihad in Pakistan and Afghanistan. What could have been the average age of those resorting to intafada in Kashmir?

What was this "college girl" doing with alleged Pakistanis and a convert with (at least) two passports? 

Prasanth,

>> Anwar ,Saroja etc probably know too well that Ishrat in all likelihood was a terrorist.

A silly comment! You need to introspect yourself on how you got yourself so convinced that this 19 year old college girl from Mumbai was a terrorist.

Sandilya,

>> Guardian and The Hindu are colonial cousins and masters of glossing and varnishing if it is about Muslim misdeeds.

That is just rubbish. They are both respectable news papers.

Irreverent,

 >>  apologists of Jihadis and Islamofascists.

For you all Muslims are Jihadis and Islamofascists. Even the worst VHP-ites are not as full of hate as you.

>>  use terms like guttersinpes, Hitler, Hindutva etc.

Show me a single example where I have used those terms inappropriately. I would never use any of those terms for anyone just because he is a Hindu or just because he disagrees with me.

 PRASANTH
MELBOURNE,
Guardian and The Hindu are colonial cousins and masters of glossing and varnishing if it is about Muslim  misdeeds. Most things British I like except this liar Guardian. It is antithesis of general British ethos of fairness and honesty.

BTW, Prasanth, did you point out to Guardian their white lie?

Bonita,

>>>> A person is presumed innocent until proven guilty.
>> Except in the case of Vinod Rai whose integrity cannot be assumed unless he proves it.

He cannot be called guilty. But asking whether he has committed errors or has a political  agenda is perfectly legitimate. Let the process play itself out. Your defending Vinod Rai is okay, but don't you think you are overdoing it?

>> If you can't take it, don't dish it out

The jehadis are not satisfied with first claims. They want exclusive claims, to both dish it out, as well as whine like stuck pigs if others give back.

>>Terrorist groups race with each other to claim some operational ownership.

Really? And what operation was this? The operation of getting killed in a fake encounter? Just justifications are so pathetic!

>> "Your using words like "mullah apologists" show a repugnant and execrable frame of mind" - Anwaar

1. One should have no qualms about using that term for apologists of Jihadis and Islamofascists.

2. The jokers who liberally use terms like guttersinpes, Hitler, Hindutva etc. should not preach us on decency. If you can't take it, don't dish it out.

@Saroja-OK, may your faith save you! I don’t want to question your beliefs!! It seems unshakable under rational questions!

@Sandilya – Thanks

@Irrelevant & whats inaname - What is the point in arguing with people whose basic thought process seemed to be based on “faith” rather than rational thought & common sense!! Anwar ,Saroja etc probably know too well that Ishrat in all likelihood was a terrorist. But accepting so would burst the bubbly universe they built over the years….. You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep..can you?
There was an article in Guardian about Gujrat and Narendra Modi. Here is a snippet
From Guardian article published last week.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/nov/19/david-cameron-india-narendra-modi
 

“At the end of February 2002, a train carrying Hindu pilgrims caught fire in the Gujarati town of Godhra. At the time, it was widely reported that the blaze, which killed 59 passengers, had been caused by Muslims; it has since been suggested that it may have been an accident.”

But the truth is, a court CONVICTED 36 muslims in Godhra for burning the train in Feb 2011 The convicts are currently serving their life sentences in a Gujrat Jail. The Hindu paper Feb 2011: “judge P.R. Patel said all the 31 accused were held guilty on two major counts — Section 120B (criminal conspiracy) and 302 (murder) of the Indian Penal Code.”
Now- the Guardian writer Aditya Chakraborty (economics leader writer for the Guardian) is not an ill informed person or stupid. He knows very well that a acourt actually convicted Muslims for burning the train and ‘fire by accident’ is a discredited theory. But he will not accept the truth, because if he tells the truth that will be against everything he & Guardian stood for the last 12 years or so (since Godhra carnage). So they are repeating the same lie!!! The ‘secular’ readers of Guardian too probably realise that this is a lie but they would rather BELIVE a lie than hear the truth –which is so inconvenient!! To my knowledge Guardian has not retracted or apologized for this lie and is unlikely to do so in future. Same with the terror deniers in India. They are hopeless!
 

 Anwaar,

A person is presumed innocent until proven guilty

Except in the case of Vinod Rai whose integrity cannot be assumed unless he proves it. Please be consistent.

Kafi Ladna Jagdna oo gaya..Cahalo lets see what Medha Patker is doing.....

Very good link by Kranti Sena..It has got pdf of mail correspondence attached...in this link and padne ke bhaad aake kuli ki kuli rahe jayegi.....

http://bhagatsinghkrantisena.blogspot.com/2012/05/medha-patkar-exposed.html

Like Medha Patker how many are there in our country US only can tell..."In God We Trust"....

>> It is not just Tamang report. The SIT headed by appointed by HC also held the encounter fake and that the four were killed before the "encounter " date.

Is this your response to

The mullah apologists are yet to answer what Ishrat was doing with the other two alleged Pakistanis

When the question clearly is about Ishrat's presence and company, you start talking about the encounter.

You give physicists a real bad name, painting them as illogical and incoherent.

>> A person is presumed innocent until proven guilty

Except Modi and Savarkar.

Irreverent,

>> And, who gives the certificate of innocence? Sickulars?

A person is presumed innocent until proven guilty. For hate-crazed morons like you however a Muslim is guilty from the start. He is guilty even if proved innocent!

Irreverent,

>>  the High Court rejected the report  for the motives ascribed and the hasty manner in which it was prepared.

You are a liar! The Gujarat High Court granted a stay on the report of the Ahmedabad Metropolitan Magistrate, S.P. Tamang, declaring the June 2004 police encounter with Ishrat Jehan and three others “fake”. This was done on technical grounds, namely that the High Court was already seized of the matter. The High Court, however, allowed the report to be submitted before the three-member Special Investigation Team (SIT).

>> The mullah apologists are yet to answer what Ishrat was doing ....

Those questions would have been easier to answer if they had not been "encountered". Your using words like "mullah apologists" show a repugnant and execrable frame of mind but are not surprising coming from a self-confessed genocide proponent.

 >>>And, why does this "humanity" get aroused only in case of Muslims?

Clearly not. You are prejudiced. Have a look at www.outlookindia.com/feedbacks.aspx

 Be it Batla, Ishrat or any other case involving Muslim terrorists, these jokers would attempt to discredit even the facts from the Home Ministry presided upon by a secular, pro-Muslim government.

Have you seen the cover of 'Eminent Historians' by Arun Shourie ? It perfectly fits these idiots..

centreright.in/2012/11/bhagyalakshmi-temple-issue-facts-revealed/ 

#53 

>>> But, how come the sickulars are so cock-sure about the innocence of the accused, almost immediately after they are nabbed or killed?

I have never objected to anyone being arrested on suspicion, provided a proper investigation is speedily conducted and if found innocent, rehabilitation and compensation is made. But it is true that when I first heard of Ishrat encounter, I knew it had to be fake. This is not a proof which has been established by Tamang as well as by Verma SIT report.It is just the confidence that I have in my understanding of certain sick minds behind the killings.

Many seculars are very well aware of radicalization among muslims, and according to Javed Anand one of the reasons why many secular hindus do not condemn muslim extremism vigorously is because they feel guilty about attrocities against muslims. He calls for everyone to condemn extremism of every hue vigorously. 

I am not sure that you can accuse me of being unable to change track in face of new facts coming to light. On the contrary I am quite gullible but am aware of it. 

 >> "But it is common humanity to come to the defence of innocents." -  Saroja

And, who gives the certificate of innocence? Sickulars? 

And, why does this "humanity" get aroused only in case of Muslims? Worse still, why this sense of humanity is denied to non-Muslims, be it Godhra, Azad, Rajbala etc?

Irreverent >>The mullah apologists are yet to answer what Ishrat was doing with the other two alleged Pakistanis

It is not just Tamang report. The SIT headed by appointed by HC also held the encounter fake and that the four were killed before the "encounter " date. Clearly you have got unhinged by the death of one of your two secular ideals.

I don't know about Koran and I am not a muslim either. But it is common humanity to come to the defence of innocents.

@ Saroja

Let me use your own phrase, with a little modification:

Sometimes one wonders whether the seculars are seriously interested in getting to the bottom of the case or merely interested in defending whatever theory they had first thought of, unable to change track in face of new facts coming to light.

>> "Is it your case that radicalization of a section of muslims is to dealt by labelling and jilling of innocents?"

Obviously not. But, how come the sickulars are so cock-sure about the innocence of the accused, almost immediately after they are nabbed or killed? Be it Batla, Ishrat or any other case involving Muslim terrorists, these jokers would attempt to discredit even the facts from the Home Ministry presided upon by a secular, pro-Muslim government.

If Muslims and seculars refuse to acknowledge the growign radicalization of Indian Muslims, don't expect others to keep their eyes shut.

Irreverent Indian,

This is what I had posted in this forum On Khwaja Yunus, who was arrested in Ghatkopar Blast case of Dec 2002, and was tortured to death -  www.outlookindia.com/feedbacks.aspx 

is that statement to simply concede that you have no answers to Prashant's arguments

I have acknowleged that I do not understand all the cases that he mentions.

Is it your case that radicalization of a section of muslims is to dealt by labelling and jilling of innocents? Find a fault in the link posted

 >> "Ahmedabad Magistrate Tamang, who carried out the most thorough inquest, categorically denied any link between Ishrat and any terrorist group." - Anwaar

Is that the best that a you can come up with in defence of your favorite jihadi? While you were spreading your noble notions of secularism on other platforms, the High Court rejected the report for the motives ascribed and the hasty manner in which it was prepared. 

The mullah apologists are yet to answer what Ishrat was doing with the other two alleged Pakistanis, Amjad Ali Rana and Zeeshan Johar. Their only contention has been that they were Indians, but no counter-prof presented.

I have not read it but am 110% sure that nowhere does the Koran ask its followers to rise in teh defense of terrorists. Why do the Muslim Indians feel obligated to do so?

The tapes also contained serious allegations against the functioning of the Nanavati–Shah commission.

Tape what Nanavathi Commission was looking for was on Naroda Patia as per the news paper of those days for which he was asked to appear for explantion...Now serious allegation is nothing new for Nanavatahi, for Ashish and Theleka had serious reservation towards SIT at later point of time but rejoiced when SIT asked Modi to appear before it.

 >> "I will stand by innocence of Ishrat and of Khwaja Yunus, who was killed in police custody in Mumbai." - Saroja

Why? Because they were Muslims? Or, is that statement to simply concede that you have no answers to Prashant's arguments, but still want to stick to your "secular rationale"?

Shoddy attempts are made to obfuscate the issue when Muslims are on rampage in Godhra, Hyderabad, Meerut, Assam, you name it. How long are we going to keep our eyes close to the rabid communalization of a significant 15% population

Self-styled sickulars like you cause more damage to the country that those terrorists. Here is letter from another self-styled sickulars asking the Muslims to vote for "secular' candidate, "preferably muslims". It is common knowledge how various local Islamic heads make "recommendations' to the community. In remote areas, political ratification is provided during azaan - on microphone. So much for secularism.

www.milligazette.com/news/4577-syed-shahabuddin-clarifies-his-stand-on-modi-and-gujarat-elections-indian-muslims-news

I have no doubt that even Kasab would have been defended by these jokers if he was not a Pakistani. Remember the "RSS ki saazish" escape-act that never took off? Would it have got more attention if Kasab was an Indian? When they get an opportunity, even the most loved celebrities like Azharuddin, Salman and Sanjay Dutt claim that they are being harassed because of their religion (or mother being a Muslim). Ever wondered why it is only the Muslims who struggle to integrate in cross-cultural society? Ever wondered why any dissenting voice have to be summarily labelled as "communal" (be it Jews, Hindus, Christians) when one has to  defend any Muslim issue?

 Jaykumar,

The tapes also contained serious allegations against the functioning of the Nanavati–Shah commission. The special public prosecutor for the Gujarat government, Arvind Pandya, told me the commission was partisan towards Modi, and its proceedings were compromised. After the exposé, the commission issued a statement that it would summon the tapes and look into them. But they never asked TEHELKA for the tapes. Nor did they conduct any inquiry.

www.tehelka.com/story_main53.asp

"Ashish Khetan single handedly got more evidence that ultimately nailed the Naroda Patiya criminals than SIT with all the state machinery at its disposal"

can you tell our friends on this blog how many times this investigator Ashish Ketam avoided personnel appearance along with his video tape before Nanavathi commission? Anyone can anser this "Why Ashish Did So" need not to be Saroja Mami only...

Same was very much available on all news channel highlgihting his own achivement of investigating the whole episode and this will bring surprise to every one that this fellow was readily available for SIT in Gandhinagar but not to Nanavathi Commission in Ahmedabad. I still rememebr congress sympathising news paper Diya Bhaskar even went on publishing news that Ashish Ketan have been given ultimatem for appearing before commission....

Catch It!!!!

 D-73/41 well argued Prasanth. I liked your post.

Prasanth,

I will stand by innocence of Ishrat and of Khwaja Yunus, who was killed in police custody in Mumbai. About others I really do not know. I will inform myself of the facts and get back to you in some future thread. Even in 'entrapment' cases US hands heavier sentences than Indian courts do in 'real' cases. Thanks for the information.

@Saroja- Yes, I did say that our policemen lack modern investigative skills and our criminal prosecution system simply is not professional enough- hence our prosecutors are unable to make the terrorists plead guilty.
But that does not mean our policemen and intelligent officers are dimwit retards!! In fact most of our IPS officers and IB officers are highly intelligent & well educated people. The best of IPS officers get selected to IB, RAW etc. So I am sure they are catching many REAL terrorists (like Kazmi, Ishrat, Jundal etc) but due to the lack of a professional criminal prosecution SYSTEM they are unable to secure convictions. For 26/11 investigation India did take some help from FBI , mostly in tracking/deciphering Skype calls and some financial trails, that’s all. After all Fahim Ansari did provide SIM cards to Lashkar agents (IB gave the SIM cards to Ansari using undercover agents)... but yet our system could not convict Ansari, I would not call him innocent...far from it. ......I suspect most 'youths' coming out of Jails are not innocent.
For example, take the case of Shahid Bilal (Huji operative) of Hyderabad, Andhra. Bilal was a founding member of Huji in India and was assassinated in Karachi by RAW. Now a brother of Bilal Majid was arrested by Andhra police for another blast case and was allegedly tortured in Jail few years ago. Police could not secure a conviction in court and court set him free and ordered government to provide monetary compensation. All Muslim organisations and people like YOU hailed this verdict. But Majid fled to Saudi Arabia shortly without collecting money from Govt. Now Majid is believed to be the ISI handler of Abu Jundal in Saudi Arabia!!! Now Indian government is trying to extradite Majid from Saudi !!!! Funny fact is our policemen always knew Majid was an ISI terrorist and even managed to put him in jail for some time. But courts set him free AND asked govt to give him few lakhs rupees as compensation!!! I suspect most other freed 'innocent' Muslim youth are like Majid.....
@Anwar- You say Lashkar claimed Ishrat falsely!! OK, I assume our home secretary GK Pillai is a Lashkar agent and was trying to give them credit by saying Ishrat was a terrorist????? ?) LOL
 

 Prashant,

You say that "we do not have policemen with modern investigative skills or resources" which I do not dispute, but then you want to accept that they somehow  manage to catch the wrong doers but are unable to present a case in court, strange. In the 26/11 attacks, we did take the help of FBI www.indianexpress.com/news/unarmed-mumbai-cops-led-to-2611-mayhem-fbi/645326 . I believe Chidambaram has done some good work in modernizing and establishing NIA. Now even in this 26/11 case, which the whole world was watching, the mumbai police wanted to implicate Fahim Ansari and Sabauddin Ahmed. FBI was not interested, courts acquitted them and the story simply does not fit in. Now we really have the prize catch of Jundal, whom Pakistan tried to get from Saudi. 

I support every effort towards police reforms and professionalizing the police force. Tamang took three weeks to come to his conclusions. Ashish Khetan single handedly got more evidence that ultimately nailed the Naroda Patiya criminals than SIT with all the state machinery at its disposal. But killing innocents after labelling them terrorists is not done. In the coming days, more and more truth will tumble out as more cases are being heard in Gujarat. I admire American FBI. and their judicial system. There the politicians can not influence or bring about remission in the sentences. Here people on life sentence also come out. eg Gopal Godse came out.

Prasanth,

>> Lashkar e Taiba though their website AND through their urdu printed magazine wrote a eulogy for Ishrat the shaheed.

Terrorist groups race with each other to claim some operational ownership. LeT first heard from Indian police reports that Ishrat had terrorist connections and went ahead and claimed her. Later they denied it. Ahmedabad Magistrate Tamang, who carried out the most thorough inquest, categorically denied any link between Ishrat and any terrorist group.

@ Now dont try to change the topic- I am not debating whether that encounter was fake or not.... thats a different topic all together... Was Ishrat a Lashkar sleeper terrorist???
To answer that question one has to go back to 2004- After the death of Ishrat and her friends, Lashkar e Taiba though their website AND through their urdu printed magazine wrote a eulogy for Ishrat the shaheed!! That's Lashkar's standard modus operandi. They have done it before when their important fighters die in Kashmir.
But by then islamist organisations in India along with some NGOs and leftist organisations started a campaign proclaiming innocence of Ishrat and Javed Shaikh (her husband as per Lashkar website). The encounter itself might have been fake, hence government started feeling the heat. Lashkar cunningly withdrew the eulogy from their website!!! So Laskhar along with the help of people like YOU started propaganda to portray Isharat as innocent!
And When people like GK Pillai says Ishrat was a terrorist (which corroborates Lashkar's own admission) , there can be no doubt in the fact that Ishrat was indeed a terrorist. Whether it can be proved in a court or not is a different matter. But any intelligent person can by now assume that Ishrat was a terrorist. But people like you are helping a terrorist organisation (Lashkar) by proclaiming Isharat was innocent.
Now coming to the second question- is it right to kill terrorists in fake encounters? Is it better to arrest them and try them?
A very complex question with no yes or no answer. Terrorists like Osama Bin Laden, Hafiz Saeed, or even Dawood Ibrahim cannot be captured (or even if captured , cannot be tried) for obvious reasons. If Jailed they will be obvious targets for kandahar style hijack incidents endangering lives of innocent Rupan Katyals! So assassinating them will be the more practical solution.
But people like Ishrat, Kazmi, Jundal etc must be arrested and tried- ideally. But India being India, we simply don’t have policemen with modern investigative skills or resources. Our policemen still use Mughal era infrastructure and training to investigate terror cases. No wonder almost all terror cases are thrown out by supreme courts and so called ‘innocent muslim' youths walk out. In USA almost all terror suspect plead guilty in court, because their criminal justice system is so professional and their case is watertight. So a Pakistani terrorist Shahzad (who try to blow up a NY street) plead guilty in a US court but another Pakistani terrorist Ajmal Kasab plead INNOCENT in an Indian court!!!!!! Have you ever heard about an Indian terrorist pleading guilty in Indian courts? Nop... ....Almost all of them eventually set free by our courts because policemen don’t have the skills to nail the terrorist in a court of law!!! So some IB officers and Gujarat policemen decided it is better to eliminate Ishrat and other pakistani terrorists in an encounter rather than take them to a court (court probably set them free after 6 years)....
So there........ the only solution is to setup many IIM style world-class police investigation institutes with foreign faculties. Train Policemen with the help of FBI etc. But will that happen in India?? Don’t know!!

Prasanth,

Every probe has established that the encounter was fake. Have a look at tehelka.com/story_main42.asp . Now the question is if Ishrat and others were jehadis on a mission to kill Modi, and then they were in custody,(which has been established by the probes) why were they not put on trial and instead executed? About what GK Pillai said etc. I really feel that they should all be interrogated. I am all for truth coming out. Labelling someone jehadi and then executing that person is not the right way of dealing with Islamist threat, which is very real. At this rate, tomorrow someone will label me a jehadi for what I post. 

Now have I even questioned the arrest of Jundal or Kazmi or I forget the name, the one who was deported from Saudi? All I ask is, if they are innocent (as many claim Kazmi to be), they should be compensated and rehabilitated. That is how it should be. 

 @Cmon Sarojoa, please stop painting all terrorists as innocent victims!!! What is wrong with you people??

http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2004-07-14/india/27158324_1_ishrat-jehan-lashkar-woman-activist

Here is a snippet from Lashkar's own website!!! (proclaiming Ishrat the Shaheed!!)

"Ishrat was with her husband, sitting on the front seat of the car," said the newspaper report published in the Jamat-ul-Dawa website, the new name of Markaz-ad-Dawa Wal Arshad (parent organisation of the LeT),

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/ishrat-jahan-was-part-of-let-terror-module-gk-pillai/1/161264.html

Now if you dont trust Lashkar e Toiba here is another source-  

Union home secretary G.K. Pillai said that slain teenager Ishrat Jahan was part of a Lashkar-e-Toiba (LeT) sleeper module.!!

GK Pillai was Union home secretary of Indian republic!!! - that too part of 'secular' Congress goverment!! 

It is rather pathetic seeing people like you shamelessly supporting terrorists and denying the very existence of Islamist terrorists in India..... Shame on you..... 

Hinduism is extremely liberal in its philosophy of - live and let live. It welcomes multitude of paths to reach the one Brahman, supports the many manifestations and messengers of the one Brahman. It even tolerates atheism as one of its schools of thoughts as a first step to understand God. “Vasudevo kutumbakam” says the Rig Veda which means the whole world is one family.

So secularism is just another word for Hinduism. Just as fire and its heat are inseparable, so is Hinduism and secularism.

What is wrong then in having a temple for secularism adjacent to a historical monument like Charminar ? In fact all right thinking Indians should support the construction of many such temples as they are the symbols of secularism. The many people who come to see the historical structures will get inspired by also visiting the temples of secularism adjacent to them. This is just another way to promote secularism among the masses especially those who do not believe in diversity of opinions and beliefs.

I fail to see any reason why there should be a controversy at all of a temple existing next to the Charminar.

Ghaiji,

Have a look at

www.thehindu.com/news/national/article18398.ece

www.dnaindia.com/india/report_nia-rubbishes-reports-that-david-headley-spoke-about-ishrat-jahan_1542579

 Now that one of your secular icons (Kasab) has been hanged, why are you smearing Ishrat's name? "
Bi Saroja

It is Ihrat who smeared her own name .
Lashkr-e Thyba of Hafiz Saeed exhorted the Momins to celbrate the Shadat of Islam as she was the Module Head who was on mission to liquidate Modi .
Even IB,Mahrashtra ,Karnatka,Andhra abd Kerela Police Forces sent the similar warnings to Gujrat Police .Even in its submissions to courts in Gujarat the Law Ministry's of UPA's Legal Advisor in Gurat submiited to the Courts.He Home Minstery of Delhi Sarkar to filled exactly the similar affidavit that IB had issued advisory to the effect that Ishrat Module was on very dangerous mission .
When all this came in open the UPA sarkar sacked the Law Officer in Gujarat and post haste withdrew the its past Advisories .And filed a fresh totally advisory too .
Mamdam Saroja better be informed please though you are always informed .
But in 2012 UPA Govt sacked the

 Irreverent Indian,

Now that one of your secular icons (Kasab) has been hanged, why are you smearing Ishrat's name? Come with facts to support your allegations.

Irreverent,

>> At least three things that jokers like you need to do......

This hate crazed genocidist is now going to give us advice!!! What a moron!

>> ""The goondas of your iconic leader,",...." the apologists of Babar and Ghazni,".... "Someone take these jokers out of their Mughal-era time warp."
>>>> 'Hate is oozing out of every pore in your body!" - Anwaar

Don't blame the messengeer. At least three things that jokers like you need to do:

1. Change your pied-pipers; listen to leaders who are truly secular.

2. Put an end to your sorry defence of extremists like Babar, Ghazni, Ishrat, Good Taliban etc.

3. Step out of the Mughal era time warp. This is 21st century.

The results are not guaranteed, but these will certainly help.

A new temple has no business being erected right under the nose of another religion's monument, that too a historic one. All the governments of AP have failed its citizens in allowing this sensitive issue to fester. The Muslim party of Hyd, MIM, has pathetically let down its supporters by not getting this removed much earlier when it was still just a dinky little vermilion smear on a pole(metaphorically speaking). Don't people in our country ever learn? This is a cynical political game now, nothing to do with people's faiths.

Irreverent,

>> "The goondas of your iconic leader,",...." the apologists of Babar and Ghazni,".... "Someone take these jokers out of their Mughal-era time warp."

Hate is oozing out of every pore in your body! You truly are a sicko!

"What new story BJP would come out with now. One need to wait and see.This time it could the birth place of Lakshman or Hanuman." Nasar Ahmad

All religions are built on fairy-tales. In Muhammad's time, the kaaba in Mecca was a pagan temple with 365 idols. When Muhammad entered Mecca, he declared that the kaaba was actually a temple that the prophet Abraham had built and that it had been stolen by the pagans. He then desecrated the idols and took over the kaaba, converting it into an Islamic monument.

There is zero hsitorical evidence for the existence of Abraham or Moses -  we have extensive historical records from the Egyptians, and had a Pharoah and his army been drowned by tidal waves etc., there would have been some record of it. But there is none, and Biblical scholars today have concluded that both Abraham and Moses are literary figures rather than historical figures. In fact the story of Moses in the Old Testament seems to be a twice-told tale based on Sumerian legends.

In any case, there is absolutely no evidence that the kaaba was once a Jewish temple, let alone one built by Abraham. Nevertheless, millions of people travel to Mecca and participate in this fairy-tale. The fictional story of Moses is also repeated several times in the Koran, which a billion people have been led to believe is the infallible word of God in which even punctuation marks have not been changed since it was revealed to Muhammad by a winged angel named Gabriel (no evidence for the existence of winged angels, named Gabriel, Jibril or anything else, has ever been found, alas).

http://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/3529/did-moses-live

http://religionresearchinstitute.org/mecca/archeology.htm

The Al-Aqsa mosque in Jerusalem is built on the spot where Muhammad apparently traveled to from Mecca on a winged horse called Buraq. Buraq is also said to have taken Muhammad to the "farthest heavens" where he met with all the previous Old Testament prophets and with Allah before returning to Mecca. Alas, no winged horse has ever been documented in history, let alone one named Buraq. But a billion people insist this story is true, and that Al-Aqsa is ground made sacred by Buraq's journey.

One day, these stories of Ram and Lakshman, Abraham and Buraq will be filed in the fiction section of our book-stores. Until that time, one man's religion is another man's absurd fairy-tale.

>> "The "mullahs" have not gone to Char Minar and demolished the temple, have they? " - Anwaar

Did I say or imply that? The goondas of your iconic leader have been running amok on the streets of Hyderabad. In contrast, the Hindus have shown immense patience. Yet, the apologists of Babar and Ghazni interpret any criticism as a challenge to demolish temples!! Someone take these jokers out of their Mughal-era time warp.

Irreverent,

>> Why stoop to the level of the mullahs?

The "mullahs" have not gone to Char Minar and demolished the temple, have they? How come all your mullah analogies are so asinine?

What new story BJP would come out with now.One need to wait and see.This time it could the birth place of Lakshman or Hanuman.

Dont stop us at lowest level, we are eyeing Mecca and it has Shiva's Linga Inside.

 Congress wants minorities to feel insecure and do nothing.They want Muslims to vote for them for their security as they nowhere to go.It was Rajiv Gandhi who opened the gates of Babri Masjid that resulted in the destruction of the Masjid and his life!

What new story BJP would come out with now.One need to wait and see.This time it could the birth place of Lakshman or Hanuman.

 One thousand years back Ram came on the dream of one pious person Hyderabad that on his way to Srilanka to bring back Sita,he stayed at the same place where the Charminar stands.He urged him to build a temple for him there.Faith has no logic.Hence the temple should be built after demolishing Charminar.

 Chinmay >> MIM is playing dirty communal politics over teh temple.It is behaving as if it has great love for hyderabadi monuments

MIM is just like Kasab. It is just a pawn behind the dirty communal games. The real force behind all the games is the CON party. The party is desperate to get that 15-20 seats from AP, which all have to come only from telengana. And that will happen only if telengana movement is broken.

Just think of all the events that happened recently - this charminar-bhagyalakshmi temple issue, and then the Beef festival issue.. all have a same pattern.. Read between the lines..

Congress is getting ready to divide people to win elections. Just like did so many times before. And the photograph in The Hindu Newspaper is just one aspect of this game.

 It seems the idiotic author knows nothing about the history of hyderabad and I wonder wether she even dared to visit the muslim dominated Charminar area .I am from hyderabad and know well the true story.There was a silakaram which existed from time immemorial and Bhagwati wife of Quli Qutub Shah used to offer prayers before that silakaram.When plague broke in Hyderabad Quli Qutub Shah built charminar to commemorate near  the site.That silakaram remained there  for centuries untill it was given shelter somewhere in 18th century.Government endownment records of last 200 years show its existence.When massive floods swept hyderabad due to Musi river overflowing terrified people both hindu and muslims offered prayers at the temple.In 1960's yes there was a road accident near the site as local bus lost control and rammed into the temple which was again reconstructed now with concrete material.The silakam has been there for ages and no one had any problem with it.All these pictures being showed by pseudo intellectuals are taken from side views which dont show the temple as all four minars are similar in nature.

MIM is playing dirty communal politics over teh temple.It is behaving as if it has great love for hyderabadi monuments.If it is then it should answer why there are about 800 ilelgal shops near charminar most of which pay bribes to MIM corporators to survive by violating rules.There is no harm in maintaining the temple near the charminar.Let  torists and muslims visit charminar and hindus will visit temple whcih anyway is in a corner.We can have true hyderababdi tezeeb and that would be halmark of our secularism

>> "Hang on, if you had a problem with the Babri Masjid demolition(as everyone on either side of the political spectrum with even an iota of intelligence would) you should ALSO have a problem with the destruction of this temple.." - Just Joe King

Hindus have a big heart. The temple can go elsewhere. Why stoop to the level of the mullahs?

There are thousands of temples in the country, but only one Charminar. 

Hang on, if you had a problem with the Babri Masjid demolition(as everyone on either side of the political spectrum with even an iota of intelligence would) you should ALSO have a problem with the destruction of this temple..
And unlike the babri masjid problem, this was not constructed OVER the Charminar either.
Let's not complicate issues here.The Razakars, deserve nothing fro the sensible people of india but contempt

To those who rely on a dated photograph to prove that there was no temple abutting the Charminar before, do you realize that if you stand diagonally across a structure and photograph it, you can hid at least two sides? And since this photograph does exactly that and since the Charminar looks identical on all four sides, do you know exactly which side is shown in this picture?

 To all those who find the BEAUTY OF CHARMINAR being destroyed by the presence of Bhagyalakshmi temple near it,

Let me ask only one question...

A Open University, the largest University in India, which provides valuable higher education to people who cannot economically afford higher education through regular route, but want to pursue higher education through the Correspondence route, this Open University should be the present day temple of worship.

Should this open University (IGNOU) be named after a Tyrannical Fascist lady, who destroyed democracy in India , defiled our constitution through 18 month emergency, destroyed and wrecked all the institutional organs of Indian democracy , worked to flame insurgency in Punjab and did unimaginable harm to our nation?

I find this even more uglier..

Please rename the university (after some real national hero who fought for spread of education and social justice )and let us then talk about removing a non descript temple around some not so ancient monument of little relevance to 95% of the 150 -200 million Muslims of India..

 Subba Rao >> The temple looks like a ugly pimple on a beautiful face. Please get rid of it ASAP.

I have a very good Muslim Friend. Let us name him as Saleem. He is a devout, conservative Muslim, who follows the holy Koran to every word. He is appaled that a few hundred million people in India worship gods made out of stone, with faces resembling monkeys, lions and elephants.

I have a very good agnostic friend of mine who is truly multicultural and makes a point to wish all his muslim friends on Eid and christian friends on XMas. Let us name him as Shiv. He is also a animal rights activist and he is appaled that during Bakrid, voiceless animals are slaughtered in very unclean ways (without adapting standard safe slaughtering practices that are common in such places like western europe)

Both Shiv and saleem stick to their beliefs and also believe that what they consider as "Ugly" cannot be imposed on the rest.

So, if you consider a Temple to be an ugly pimple on the face of Charminar, keep your belief with yourself and dont look at the place. As simple as that.

 R Saroja >> We are waiting to hear your accounts of what you witnessed as a teenager in Ayodhya in 1542.

And we are awaiting your first hand eyewitness reports on how exactly the Aryans invaded India and crushed its indegenous dravidans, in circa 1500 BC... 

But wait.. the Time Machine has not been invented yet !!

The north-west corner of Charminar is very narrow. Since 1974 I am seeing this and since that time at least a small temple existed abutting Charminar on the north-west side. There is a big local bus terminal , actually a bus stop on south-east side. Charminar is not like TajMahal where you have huge empty spaces on all four sides. There are encroachments on almost every side. One can see a Masjid on south-west side. At busy time, Charminar looks like a beehive,with spaces aroung it completely choked..

Now there are several issues here involved.

There are some two acre land in the heart of the city at the jains Mahavir hospital( lakdi-ka-pool area ) . This lease of this land  is what Mr.Owaisi wanted the Govt. to terminate and probably wanted for himself. According to Congress MLA's and others , CM Kiran kumar refused to sign on the file to end the lease period for Mahavir Hospital. This obviously angered Mr.Owaisi who is slightly smaller version of Bal Thackeray in Old City of Hyderabad ( he was insignificant and a small time politician in 1973 ) . Mr.Owaisi lives in style , in a grand style rather and had the courage to give a warning to the Govt. that muslims would become terrorists , right in the parliament !!!

Somehow it seems Mr.Kiran kumar Reddy summed up the courage to take on Mr.Owaisi by horns and the result is the sleeping temple issue which is so small in size and height that to go inside is difficult. Old City is already been very much backward in education and sanitation,roads etc., I do not know what Mr.Owaisi wants out of this present issue.The issue of temple has already been in the court since a long time..

Rishi Vyas,

Eye witness accounts are always interesting. As you say

 I went to Hyderabad in 1947 for my honeymoon and if my memory serves me, I think i prayed there with my wife.

We are waiting to hear your accounts of what you witnessed as a teenager in Ayodhya in 1542.

 by ur logic, i conclude that it was okay to demolish babri masjid as ASI re[ports show thee was a temple before that...by the way did u publish any article justifying that....if no...please remove this article...moreover it sends a message that hind and islamic structures cannot co exist...a very communal and nauseating article to say the least

 The temple looks like a ugly pimple on a beautiful face. Please get rid of it ASAP.

Charminar is a protected monument and is a iconic symbol of our city.

Charminar must be given a face life, paan stains decorate every nook and corner of this architectural marvel.

And please use this opportunity to demolish scores of illegal shrines (temples, mosques, churches alike) that seem to spring up like mushrooms in the middle of roads, proving hinderance to smooth flow of traffic and causing inconvinence to people.

That would please both the Jihadis and Sanghi's alike.

What starts with a small idol soon ends up with a massive shrine with "historical importance", the modus operandi is all too familiar.

I do not know if the temple was there or not but it is certain that at  one time in history there was no charminar either. Maybe we should restore heritage back to that point. Ridiculous and unnecessary controvercy!

 How about the authenticity of the photograph. Congress has already questioned the authenticity of the Photograph and I believe that Outlook has the same Photograph.

http://www.thehindu.com/news/states/andhra-pradesh/congress-leader-questions-authenticity-of-old-photo-of-charminar/article4120520.ece

The ancient name of Hyderabad is Bhagya Nagar. The story goes like this : The temple was built in the memory of Bhagyawati, 'Harijan' mistress of the founder of Qutb Shahi dynasty. The temple was there forever and it was desectrated in 1979 after the siege of Kaba. 

On aside, I went to Hyderabad in 1947 for my honeymoon and if my memory serves me, I think i prayed there with my wife. 

We Indians truly deserve every bit of grief we get - divisive politics, lumpen lawmakers and crass level of discouse. One look at the diseased mentality displayed on outlook's comment boards will tell you why.

 September 1687,the day when Aurangazeb's army enterted golkonda fort by bribeing abdullakhan panni who opened gates of fort,on that day aurangazeb's  army plundered and destroyed magnificent  monuments and temples  in hyderabad  including Bhagya lakshmi templeand buildings like dad mahal,chandan mahal,lakkhan mahal and khudha mahal which was 9 stored bulinding which were know for its artistic and architectural excellence were destroyed,just because qutub shahi kings who were shia's,  were tolerant and secular in their approach and outlook they appointed maddana as prime minister and akkana as chief of army,qutub shah kings who treated every religion with great respect , they gave grants to lot of temples,including Bhagya lakshmi temple, and prayed and patronised those temple..

 every one are aware that  photography was invented in 1826,so unfortunately that is reason whythere r no temple photographs r available of that time.so after that small diety  was placed there and regular pooja rituals conducted at the temple,Nizams who were subedars in aurangazeb army, who later became kings of hyderabad follwed polices of intolerence of aurangazeb,as nizam was intolerent who had fanatic follwers like qasim razvi who was chief of mim,and maintained razakars didnt allow prayers at temple.

 hyderabad had12 gates,,were did so called custodians of hyderabad heritage gone when some imp landmarks like ,dilli darwaza,champa darwaza,chaderghat darwaza,yakutpura darwaz, darwaza talab mir jumla,darwaza gowlipura,darwaza aliabad,darwaza doodbowli,etc,afzal gunj bridge gate and residency gates were destroyed and many more serais and gosha mahal ,mishk mahal r encrouched upon,

when highcourt ordered fencing around Badhshahi ashuroor khan built by abdullah qutub shah to protect monument and prevent encrochment,why owasis and its mim is stoping fencing? why hindu r outlook didnt ever mentioned and secular custodians of hyderabad city didnt protest?

Most ridiculous piece of article, I dare the author to produce evidence to suggest there was no temple, several generations of my family have been visiting the temple! Its shame some nonbelievers spreading the crap! Who's Anuradha Reddy? some self-styled non believer......Outlook stop producing crap as articles....kindly focus on strong evidence to buttress your claim …I am sure the author is not a native of Hyderabad ,must be settler from Andhra…who just don’t have any cultural affinity to hyderabad...................

 I’ve visited the Charminar since the late ’50s; there was no temple. A small shrine had come up only in the late ’60s.”Anuradha Reddy, State INTACH Convenor "

Temole came up in 1960 if Reddy mam to be believed .
Well Congress was ruling in Delhi and Andhra .

Locks of Babri opened in 1948 when Jawahar Lal wa sthe PM and UP was having a Congress Sarkar .

Locks of Babri Temple reopened by another Nehru Arun in 1987 .

Rajiv Gandhi did Bhimi Pujan at Ram Janm bhumi and started his Election campaign in 1989.

In 1992 Congress ruled India under Rao Sarkar when Babri was razed .BJP was ruling UP

In 1992 Congress was ruling when make shift Ram Mandir came up .
After doing all above finally Congress gave an affidavit that Ram never existed and the withdrew it shouting
Jai Shri RAM !!!

Incidentally Land Records since ancient times including pre Mayuras, Lodhi's ,Mughals Pand British Period say the Land where the Babri Masjid built as Dashrat ka Mahal !

So if the BHAGYA LAXMI mandir came up in 1960 during Congress's Rule then what is so extra ordinary ???  Hindus say that the Temple predates Charminar .

Muslims say Congress is communal and favours Hindus .
Hindus say Congress is communal and favours Muslims .

Prashanth has looked at the issue in much the same way as those who justify Dec6th.

Those opposed to the temple must be asked if they justify the destructions of temples by Muslim invaders and should be to the  Mosques built at there site.

Now if you keep going back and forth is no way of moving forward,this temple should never have been allowed near a structure which is classified monuement.

To Majlis why indulge in violence and not seek legal remedy,Owaisi is playing with emotions and the people of Old city who lack in Education and have missed the chances which IT provided are becoming Pawns for Majlis.

When is commonsense going to show up.

The Outlook seems to be utmost caring about the illegal encroachments!!!! Recently an illegal Mosque for forcefully build in the National Capital, New Delhi, by Muslims, encroaching the governemnt land. Where were the loftly standards of the Outlook then? 

 Ok,now let us talk about the mosques built next to and on hindu shrines in Kashi Vishwanath and Mathura.

 Narendra Luther, by his name, appears to be a Christian. INTACH and such NGOs are notorious for being agents of the west. So my suspicion is that, this issue was started by the RoL (Religion of Love, for starters)agents and being picked up and fanned by MIM (Ofcourse, from the Religion of 'peace') for expanding their base. When will India have the balls to throw such vermin out?

 OK, fair enough, Outlook is against 'encroaching' of historical monuments... good good... now I assume you have the same opinion about encroachment by invaders of Hindu holy temples like Ayodya Ram temple, and Madhura Krishna temple and Kashi Viswanath temple as well??? OR you have  a different opinion? :) 

 I am shocked to read that when thousands of shops encroached near Charminar did not raise any objections ,why there is such an issue over a temple?By the way every friday muslims encroach upon roads for their prayer.This issue must also be taken up?

 I am shocked to read that when thousands of shops encroached near Charminar did not raise any objections ,why there is such an issue over a temple?By the way every friday muslims encroach upon roads for their prayer.This issue must also be taken up?

 OK, fair enough, Outlook is against 'encroaching' of historical monuments... good good... now I assume you have the same opinion about encroachment by invaders of Hindu holy temples like Ayodya Ram temple, and Madhura Krishna temple and Kashi Viswanath temple as well??? OR you have  a different opinion? :) 

 Narendra Luther, by his name, appears to be a Christian. INTACH and such NGOs are notorious for being agents of the west. So my suspicion is that, this issue was started by the RoL (Religion of Love, for starters)agents and being picked up and fanned by MIM (Ofcourse, from the Religion of 'peace') for expanding their base. When will India have the balls to throw such vermin out?

 Ok,now let us talk about the mosques built next to and on hindu shrines in Kashi Vishwanath and Mathura.

The Outlook seems to be utmost caring about the illegal encroachments!!!! Recently an illegal Mosque for forcefully build in the National Capital, New Delhi, by Muslims, encroaching the governemnt land. Where were the loftly standards of the Outlook then? 

Prashanth has looked at the issue in much the same way as those who justify Dec6th.

Those opposed to the temple must be asked if they justify the destructions of temples by Muslim invaders and should be to the  Mosques built at there site.

Now if you keep going back and forth is no way of moving forward,this temple should never have been allowed near a structure which is classified monuement.

To Majlis why indulge in violence and not seek legal remedy,Owaisi is playing with emotions and the people of Old city who lack in Education and have missed the chances which IT provided are becoming Pawns for Majlis.

When is commonsense going to show up.

 I’ve visited the Charminar since the late ’50s; there was no temple. A small shrine had come up only in the late ’60s.”Anuradha Reddy, State INTACH Convenor "

Temole came up in 1960 if Reddy mam to be believed .
Well Congress was ruling in Delhi and Andhra .

Locks of Babri opened in 1948 when Jawahar Lal wa sthe PM and UP was having a Congress Sarkar .

Locks of Babri Temple reopened by another Nehru Arun in 1987 .

Rajiv Gandhi did Bhimi Pujan at Ram Janm bhumi and started his Election campaign in 1989.

In 1992 Congress ruled India under Rao Sarkar when Babri was razed .BJP was ruling UP

In 1992 Congress was ruling when make shift Ram Mandir came up .
After doing all above finally Congress gave an affidavit that Ram never existed and the withdrew it shouting
Jai Shri RAM !!!

Incidentally Land Records since ancient times including pre Mayuras, Lodhi's ,Mughals Pand British Period say the Land where the Babri Masjid built as Dashrat ka Mahal !

So if the BHAGYA LAXMI mandir came up in 1960 during Congress's Rule then what is so extra ordinary ???  Hindus say that the Temple predates Charminar .

Muslims say Congress is communal and favours Hindus .
Hindus say Congress is communal and favours Muslims .

Most ridiculous piece of article, I dare the author to produce evidence to suggest there was no temple, several generations of my family have been visiting the temple! Its shame some nonbelievers spreading the crap! Who's Anuradha Reddy? some self-styled non believer......Outlook stop producing crap as articles....kindly focus on strong evidence to buttress your claim …I am sure the author is not a native of Hyderabad ,must be settler from Andhra…who just don’t have any cultural affinity to hyderabad...................

 September 1687,the day when Aurangazeb's army enterted golkonda fort by bribeing abdullakhan panni who opened gates of fort,on that day aurangazeb's  army plundered and destroyed magnificent  monuments and temples  in hyderabad  including Bhagya lakshmi templeand buildings like dad mahal,chandan mahal,lakkhan mahal and khudha mahal which was 9 stored bulinding which were know for its artistic and architectural excellence were destroyed,just because qutub shahi kings who were shia's,  were tolerant and secular in their approach and outlook they appointed maddana as prime minister and akkana as chief of army,qutub shah kings who treated every religion with great respect , they gave grants to lot of temples,including Bhagya lakshmi temple, and prayed and patronised those temple..

 every one are aware that  photography was invented in 1826,so unfortunately that is reason whythere r no temple photographs r available of that time.so after that small diety  was placed there and regular pooja rituals conducted at the temple,Nizams who were subedars in aurangazeb army, who later became kings of hyderabad follwed polices of intolerence of aurangazeb,as nizam was intolerent who had fanatic follwers like qasim razvi who was chief of mim,and maintained razakars didnt allow prayers at temple.

 hyderabad had12 gates,,were did so called custodians of hyderabad heritage gone when some imp landmarks like ,dilli darwaza,champa darwaza,chaderghat darwaza,yakutpura darwaz, darwaza talab mir jumla,darwaza gowlipura,darwaza aliabad,darwaza doodbowli,etc,afzal gunj bridge gate and residency gates were destroyed and many more serais and gosha mahal ,mishk mahal r encrouched upon,

when highcourt ordered fencing around Badhshahi ashuroor khan built by abdullah qutub shah to protect monument and prevent encrochment,why owasis and its mim is stoping fencing? why hindu r outlook didnt ever mentioned and secular custodians of hyderabad city didnt protest?

We Indians truly deserve every bit of grief we get - divisive politics, lumpen lawmakers and crass level of discouse. One look at the diseased mentality displayed on outlook's comment boards will tell you why.

 How about the authenticity of the photograph. Congress has already questioned the authenticity of the Photograph and I believe that Outlook has the same Photograph.

http://www.thehindu.com/news/states/andhra-pradesh/congress-leader-questions-authenticity-of-old-photo-of-charminar/article4120520.ece

The ancient name of Hyderabad is Bhagya Nagar. The story goes like this : The temple was built in the memory of Bhagyawati, 'Harijan' mistress of the founder of Qutb Shahi dynasty. The temple was there forever and it was desectrated in 1979 after the siege of Kaba. 

On aside, I went to Hyderabad in 1947 for my honeymoon and if my memory serves me, I think i prayed there with my wife. 

I do not know if the temple was there or not but it is certain that at  one time in history there was no charminar either. Maybe we should restore heritage back to that point. Ridiculous and unnecessary controvercy!

 The temple looks like a ugly pimple on a beautiful face. Please get rid of it ASAP.

Charminar is a protected monument and is a iconic symbol of our city.

Charminar must be given a face life, paan stains decorate every nook and corner of this architectural marvel.

And please use this opportunity to demolish scores of illegal shrines (temples, mosques, churches alike) that seem to spring up like mushrooms in the middle of roads, proving hinderance to smooth flow of traffic and causing inconvinence to people.

That would please both the Jihadis and Sanghi's alike.

What starts with a small idol soon ends up with a massive shrine with "historical importance", the modus operandi is all too familiar.

 by ur logic, i conclude that it was okay to demolish babri masjid as ASI re[ports show thee was a temple before that...by the way did u publish any article justifying that....if no...please remove this article...moreover it sends a message that hind and islamic structures cannot co exist...a very communal and nauseating article to say the least

Rishi Vyas,

Eye witness accounts are always interesting. As you say

 I went to Hyderabad in 1947 for my honeymoon and if my memory serves me, I think i prayed there with my wife.

We are waiting to hear your accounts of what you witnessed as a teenager in Ayodhya in 1542.

The north-west corner of Charminar is very narrow. Since 1974 I am seeing this and since that time at least a small temple existed abutting Charminar on the north-west side. There is a big local bus terminal , actually a bus stop on south-east side. Charminar is not like TajMahal where you have huge empty spaces on all four sides. There are encroachments on almost every side. One can see a Masjid on south-west side. At busy time, Charminar looks like a beehive,with spaces aroung it completely choked..

Now there are several issues here involved.

There are some two acre land in the heart of the city at the jains Mahavir hospital( lakdi-ka-pool area ) . This lease of this land  is what Mr.Owaisi wanted the Govt. to terminate and probably wanted for himself. According to Congress MLA's and others , CM Kiran kumar refused to sign on the file to end the lease period for Mahavir Hospital. This obviously angered Mr.Owaisi who is slightly smaller version of Bal Thackeray in Old City of Hyderabad ( he was insignificant and a small time politician in 1973 ) . Mr.Owaisi lives in style , in a grand style rather and had the courage to give a warning to the Govt. that muslims would become terrorists , right in the parliament !!!

Somehow it seems Mr.Kiran kumar Reddy summed up the courage to take on Mr.Owaisi by horns and the result is the sleeping temple issue which is so small in size and height that to go inside is difficult. Old City is already been very much backward in education and sanitation,roads etc., I do not know what Mr.Owaisi wants out of this present issue.The issue of temple has already been in the court since a long time..

 R Saroja >> We are waiting to hear your accounts of what you witnessed as a teenager in Ayodhya in 1542.

And we are awaiting your first hand eyewitness reports on how exactly the Aryans invaded India and crushed its indegenous dravidans, in circa 1500 BC... 

But wait.. the Time Machine has not been invented yet !!

 Subba Rao >> The temple looks like a ugly pimple on a beautiful face. Please get rid of it ASAP.

I have a very good Muslim Friend. Let us name him as Saleem. He is a devout, conservative Muslim, who follows the holy Koran to every word. He is appaled that a few hundred million people in India worship gods made out of stone, with faces resembling monkeys, lions and elephants.

I have a very good agnostic friend of mine who is truly multicultural and makes a point to wish all his muslim friends on Eid and christian friends on XMas. Let us name him as Shiv. He is also a animal rights activist and he is appaled that during Bakrid, voiceless animals are slaughtered in very unclean ways (without adapting standard safe slaughtering practices that are common in such places like western europe)

Both Shiv and saleem stick to their beliefs and also believe that what they consider as "Ugly" cannot be imposed on the rest.

So, if you consider a Temple to be an ugly pimple on the face of Charminar, keep your belief with yourself and dont look at the place. As simple as that.

 To all those who find the BEAUTY OF CHARMINAR being destroyed by the presence of Bhagyalakshmi temple near it,

Let me ask only one question...

A Open University, the largest University in India, which provides valuable higher education to people who cannot economically afford higher education through regular route, but want to pursue higher education through the Correspondence route, this Open University should be the present day temple of worship.

Should this open University (IGNOU) be named after a Tyrannical Fascist lady, who destroyed democracy in India , defiled our constitution through 18 month emergency, destroyed and wrecked all the institutional organs of Indian democracy , worked to flame insurgency in Punjab and did unimaginable harm to our nation?

I find this even more uglier..

Please rename the university (after some real national hero who fought for spread of education and social justice )and let us then talk about removing a non descript temple around some not so ancient monument of little relevance to 95% of the 150 -200 million Muslims of India..

To those who rely on a dated photograph to prove that there was no temple abutting the Charminar before, do you realize that if you stand diagonally across a structure and photograph it, you can hid at least two sides? And since this photograph does exactly that and since the Charminar looks identical on all four sides, do you know exactly which side is shown in this picture?

Hang on, if you had a problem with the Babri Masjid demolition(as everyone on either side of the political spectrum with even an iota of intelligence would) you should ALSO have a problem with the destruction of this temple..
And unlike the babri masjid problem, this was not constructed OVER the Charminar either.
Let's not complicate issues here.The Razakars, deserve nothing fro the sensible people of india but contempt

>> "Hang on, if you had a problem with the Babri Masjid demolition(as everyone on either side of the political spectrum with even an iota of intelligence would) you should ALSO have a problem with the destruction of this temple.." - Just Joe King

Hindus have a big heart. The temple can go elsewhere. Why stoop to the level of the mullahs?

There are thousands of temples in the country, but only one Charminar. 

 It seems the idiotic author knows nothing about the history of hyderabad and I wonder wether she even dared to visit the muslim dominated Charminar area .I am from hyderabad and know well the true story.There was a silakaram which existed from time immemorial and Bhagwati wife of Quli Qutub Shah used to offer prayers before that silakaram.When plague broke in Hyderabad Quli Qutub Shah built charminar to commemorate near  the site.That silakaram remained there  for centuries untill it was given shelter somewhere in 18th century.Government endownment records of last 200 years show its existence.When massive floods swept hyderabad due to Musi river overflowing terrified people both hindu and muslims offered prayers at the temple.In 1960's yes there was a road accident near the site as local bus lost control and rammed into the temple which was again reconstructed now with concrete material.The silakam has been there for ages and no one had any problem with it.All these pictures being showed by pseudo intellectuals are taken from side views which dont show the temple as all four minars are similar in nature.

MIM is playing dirty communal politics over teh temple.It is behaving as if it has great love for hyderabadi monuments.If it is then it should answer why there are about 800 ilelgal shops near charminar most of which pay bribes to MIM corporators to survive by violating rules.There is no harm in maintaining the temple near the charminar.Let  torists and muslims visit charminar and hindus will visit temple whcih anyway is in a corner.We can have true hyderababdi tezeeb and that would be halmark of our secularism

 Chinmay >> MIM is playing dirty communal politics over teh temple.It is behaving as if it has great love for hyderabadi monuments

MIM is just like Kasab. It is just a pawn behind the dirty communal games. The real force behind all the games is the CON party. The party is desperate to get that 15-20 seats from AP, which all have to come only from telengana. And that will happen only if telengana movement is broken.

Just think of all the events that happened recently - this charminar-bhagyalakshmi temple issue, and then the Beef festival issue.. all have a same pattern.. Read between the lines..

Congress is getting ready to divide people to win elections. Just like did so many times before. And the photograph in The Hindu Newspaper is just one aspect of this game.

 One thousand years back Ram came on the dream of one pious person Hyderabad that on his way to Srilanka to bring back Sita,he stayed at the same place where the Charminar stands.He urged him to build a temple for him there.Faith has no logic.Hence the temple should be built after demolishing Charminar.

 Congress wants minorities to feel insecure and do nothing.They want Muslims to vote for them for their security as they nowhere to go.It was Rajiv Gandhi who opened the gates of Babri Masjid that resulted in the destruction of the Masjid and his life!

What new story BJP would come out with now.One need to wait and see.This time it could the birth place of Lakshman or Hanuman.

What new story BJP would come out with now.One need to wait and see.This time it could the birth place of Lakshman or Hanuman.

Dont stop us at lowest level, we are eyeing Mecca and it has Shiva's Linga Inside.

Irreverent,

>> Why stoop to the level of the mullahs?

The "mullahs" have not gone to Char Minar and demolished the temple, have they? How come all your mullah analogies are so asinine?

>> "The "mullahs" have not gone to Char Minar and demolished the temple, have they? " - Anwaar

Did I say or imply that? The goondas of your iconic leader have been running amok on the streets of Hyderabad. In contrast, the Hindus have shown immense patience. Yet, the apologists of Babar and Ghazni interpret any criticism as a challenge to demolish temples!! Someone take these jokers out of their Mughal-era time warp.

"What new story BJP would come out with now. One need to wait and see.This time it could the birth place of Lakshman or Hanuman." Nasar Ahmad

All religions are built on fairy-tales. In Muhammad's time, the kaaba in Mecca was a pagan temple with 365 idols. When Muhammad entered Mecca, he declared that the kaaba was actually a temple that the prophet Abraham had built and that it had been stolen by the pagans. He then desecrated the idols and took over the kaaba, converting it into an Islamic monument.

There is zero hsitorical evidence for the existence of Abraham or Moses -  we have extensive historical records from the Egyptians, and had a Pharoah and his army been drowned by tidal waves etc., there would have been some record of it. But there is none, and Biblical scholars today have concluded that both Abraham and Moses are literary figures rather than historical figures. In fact the story of Moses in the Old Testament seems to be a twice-told tale based on Sumerian legends.

In any case, there is absolutely no evidence that the kaaba was once a Jewish temple, let alone one built by Abraham. Nevertheless, millions of people travel to Mecca and participate in this fairy-tale. The fictional story of Moses is also repeated several times in the Koran, which a billion people have been led to believe is the infallible word of God in which even punctuation marks have not been changed since it was revealed to Muhammad by a winged angel named Gabriel (no evidence for the existence of winged angels, named Gabriel, Jibril or anything else, has ever been found, alas).

http://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/3529/did-moses-live

http://religionresearchinstitute.org/mecca/archeology.htm

The Al-Aqsa mosque in Jerusalem is built on the spot where Muhammad apparently traveled to from Mecca on a winged horse called Buraq. Buraq is also said to have taken Muhammad to the "farthest heavens" where he met with all the previous Old Testament prophets and with Allah before returning to Mecca. Alas, no winged horse has ever been documented in history, let alone one named Buraq. But a billion people insist this story is true, and that Al-Aqsa is ground made sacred by Buraq's journey.

One day, these stories of Ram and Lakshman, Abraham and Buraq will be filed in the fiction section of our book-stores. Until that time, one man's religion is another man's absurd fairy-tale.

Irreverent,

>> "The goondas of your iconic leader,",...." the apologists of Babar and Ghazni,".... "Someone take these jokers out of their Mughal-era time warp."

Hate is oozing out of every pore in your body! You truly are a sicko!

A new temple has no business being erected right under the nose of another religion's monument, that too a historic one. All the governments of AP have failed its citizens in allowing this sensitive issue to fester. The Muslim party of Hyd, MIM, has pathetically let down its supporters by not getting this removed much earlier when it was still just a dinky little vermilion smear on a pole(metaphorically speaking). Don't people in our country ever learn? This is a cynical political game now, nothing to do with people's faiths.

>> ""The goondas of your iconic leader,",...." the apologists of Babar and Ghazni,".... "Someone take these jokers out of their Mughal-era time warp."
>>>> 'Hate is oozing out of every pore in your body!" - Anwaar

Don't blame the messengeer. At least three things that jokers like you need to do:

1. Change your pied-pipers; listen to leaders who are truly secular.

2. Put an end to your sorry defence of extremists like Babar, Ghazni, Ishrat, Good Taliban etc.

3. Step out of the Mughal era time warp. This is 21st century.

The results are not guaranteed, but these will certainly help.

Irreverent,

>> At least three things that jokers like you need to do......

This hate crazed genocidist is now going to give us advice!!! What a moron!

 Irreverent Indian,

Now that one of your secular icons (Kasab) has been hanged, why are you smearing Ishrat's name? Come with facts to support your allegations.

 Now that one of your secular icons (Kasab) has been hanged, why are you smearing Ishrat's name? "
Bi Saroja

It is Ihrat who smeared her own name .
Lashkr-e Thyba of Hafiz Saeed exhorted the Momins to celbrate the Shadat of Islam as she was the Module Head who was on mission to liquidate Modi .
Even IB,Mahrashtra ,Karnatka,Andhra abd Kerela Police Forces sent the similar warnings to Gujrat Police .Even in its submissions to courts in Gujarat the Law Ministry's of UPA's Legal Advisor in Gurat submiited to the Courts.He Home Minstery of Delhi Sarkar to filled exactly the similar affidavit that IB had issued advisory to the effect that Ishrat Module was on very dangerous mission .
When all this came in open the UPA sarkar sacked the Law Officer in Gujarat and post haste withdrew the its past Advisories .And filed a fresh totally advisory too .
Mamdam Saroja better be informed please though you are always informed .
But in 2012 UPA Govt sacked the

Ghaiji,

Have a look at

www.thehindu.com/news/national/article18398.ece

www.dnaindia.com/india/report_nia-rubbishes-reports-that-david-headley-spoke-about-ishrat-jahan_1542579

Hinduism is extremely liberal in its philosophy of - live and let live. It welcomes multitude of paths to reach the one Brahman, supports the many manifestations and messengers of the one Brahman. It even tolerates atheism as one of its schools of thoughts as a first step to understand God. “Vasudevo kutumbakam” says the Rig Veda which means the whole world is one family.

So secularism is just another word for Hinduism. Just as fire and its heat are inseparable, so is Hinduism and secularism.

What is wrong then in having a temple for secularism adjacent to a historical monument like Charminar ? In fact all right thinking Indians should support the construction of many such temples as they are the symbols of secularism. The many people who come to see the historical structures will get inspired by also visiting the temples of secularism adjacent to them. This is just another way to promote secularism among the masses especially those who do not believe in diversity of opinions and beliefs.

I fail to see any reason why there should be a controversy at all of a temple existing next to the Charminar.

 @Cmon Sarojoa, please stop painting all terrorists as innocent victims!!! What is wrong with you people??

http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2004-07-14/india/27158324_1_ishrat-jehan-lashkar-woman-activist

Here is a snippet from Lashkar's own website!!! (proclaiming Ishrat the Shaheed!!)

"Ishrat was with her husband, sitting on the front seat of the car," said the newspaper report published in the Jamat-ul-Dawa website, the new name of Markaz-ad-Dawa Wal Arshad (parent organisation of the LeT),

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/ishrat-jahan-was-part-of-let-terror-module-gk-pillai/1/161264.html

Now if you dont trust Lashkar e Toiba here is another source-  

Union home secretary G.K. Pillai said that slain teenager Ishrat Jahan was part of a Lashkar-e-Toiba (LeT) sleeper module.!!

GK Pillai was Union home secretary of Indian republic!!! - that too part of 'secular' Congress goverment!! 

It is rather pathetic seeing people like you shamelessly supporting terrorists and denying the very existence of Islamist terrorists in India..... Shame on you..... 

Prasanth,

Every probe has established that the encounter was fake. Have a look at tehelka.com/story_main42.asp . Now the question is if Ishrat and others were jehadis on a mission to kill Modi, and then they were in custody,(which has been established by the probes) why were they not put on trial and instead executed? About what GK Pillai said etc. I really feel that they should all be interrogated. I am all for truth coming out. Labelling someone jehadi and then executing that person is not the right way of dealing with Islamist threat, which is very real. At this rate, tomorrow someone will label me a jehadi for what I post. 

Now have I even questioned the arrest of Jundal or Kazmi or I forget the name, the one who was deported from Saudi? All I ask is, if they are innocent (as many claim Kazmi to be), they should be compensated and rehabilitated. That is how it should be. 

@ Now dont try to change the topic- I am not debating whether that encounter was fake or not.... thats a different topic all together... Was Ishrat a Lashkar sleeper terrorist???
To answer that question one has to go back to 2004- After the death of Ishrat and her friends, Lashkar e Taiba though their website AND through their urdu printed magazine wrote a eulogy for Ishrat the shaheed!! That's Lashkar's standard modus operandi. They have done it before when their important fighters die in Kashmir.
But by then islamist organisations in India along with some NGOs and leftist organisations started a campaign proclaiming innocence of Ishrat and Javed Shaikh (her husband as per Lashkar website). The encounter itself might have been fake, hence government started feeling the heat. Lashkar cunningly withdrew the eulogy from their website!!! So Laskhar along with the help of people like YOU started propaganda to portray Isharat as innocent!
And When people like GK Pillai says Ishrat was a terrorist (which corroborates Lashkar's own admission) , there can be no doubt in the fact that Ishrat was indeed a terrorist. Whether it can be proved in a court or not is a different matter. But any intelligent person can by now assume that Ishrat was a terrorist. But people like you are helping a terrorist organisation (Lashkar) by proclaiming Isharat was innocent.
Now coming to the second question- is it right to kill terrorists in fake encounters? Is it better to arrest them and try them?
A very complex question with no yes or no answer. Terrorists like Osama Bin Laden, Hafiz Saeed, or even Dawood Ibrahim cannot be captured (or even if captured , cannot be tried) for obvious reasons. If Jailed they will be obvious targets for kandahar style hijack incidents endangering lives of innocent Rupan Katyals! So assassinating them will be the more practical solution.
But people like Ishrat, Kazmi, Jundal etc must be arrested and tried- ideally. But India being India, we simply don’t have policemen with modern investigative skills or resources. Our policemen still use Mughal era infrastructure and training to investigate terror cases. No wonder almost all terror cases are thrown out by supreme courts and so called ‘innocent muslim' youths walk out. In USA almost all terror suspect plead guilty in court, because their criminal justice system is so professional and their case is watertight. So a Pakistani terrorist Shahzad (who try to blow up a NY street) plead guilty in a US court but another Pakistani terrorist Ajmal Kasab plead INNOCENT in an Indian court!!!!!! Have you ever heard about an Indian terrorist pleading guilty in Indian courts? Nop... ....Almost all of them eventually set free by our courts because policemen don’t have the skills to nail the terrorist in a court of law!!! So some IB officers and Gujarat policemen decided it is better to eliminate Ishrat and other pakistani terrorists in an encounter rather than take them to a court (court probably set them free after 6 years)....
So there........ the only solution is to setup many IIM style world-class police investigation institutes with foreign faculties. Train Policemen with the help of FBI etc. But will that happen in India?? Don’t know!!

Prasanth,

>> Lashkar e Taiba though their website AND through their urdu printed magazine wrote a eulogy for Ishrat the shaheed.

Terrorist groups race with each other to claim some operational ownership. LeT first heard from Indian police reports that Ishrat had terrorist connections and went ahead and claimed her. Later they denied it. Ahmedabad Magistrate Tamang, who carried out the most thorough inquest, categorically denied any link between Ishrat and any terrorist group.

 Prashant,

You say that "we do not have policemen with modern investigative skills or resources" which I do not dispute, but then you want to accept that they somehow  manage to catch the wrong doers but are unable to present a case in court, strange. In the 26/11 attacks, we did take the help of FBI www.indianexpress.com/news/unarmed-mumbai-cops-led-to-2611-mayhem-fbi/645326 . I believe Chidambaram has done some good work in modernizing and establishing NIA. Now even in this 26/11 case, which the whole world was watching, the mumbai police wanted to implicate Fahim Ansari and Sabauddin Ahmed. FBI was not interested, courts acquitted them and the story simply does not fit in. Now we really have the prize catch of Jundal, whom Pakistan tried to get from Saudi. 

I support every effort towards police reforms and professionalizing the police force. Tamang took three weeks to come to his conclusions. Ashish Khetan single handedly got more evidence that ultimately nailed the Naroda Patiya criminals than SIT with all the state machinery at its disposal. But killing innocents after labelling them terrorists is not done. In the coming days, more and more truth will tumble out as more cases are being heard in Gujarat. I admire American FBI. and their judicial system. There the politicians can not influence or bring about remission in the sentences. Here people on life sentence also come out. eg Gopal Godse came out.

@Saroja- Yes, I did say that our policemen lack modern investigative skills and our criminal prosecution system simply is not professional enough- hence our prosecutors are unable to make the terrorists plead guilty.
But that does not mean our policemen and intelligent officers are dimwit retards!! In fact most of our IPS officers and IB officers are highly intelligent & well educated people. The best of IPS officers get selected to IB, RAW etc. So I am sure they are catching many REAL terrorists (like Kazmi, Ishrat, Jundal etc) but due to the lack of a professional criminal prosecution SYSTEM they are unable to secure convictions. For 26/11 investigation India did take some help from FBI , mostly in tracking/deciphering Skype calls and some financial trails, that’s all. After all Fahim Ansari did provide SIM cards to Lashkar agents (IB gave the SIM cards to Ansari using undercover agents)... but yet our system could not convict Ansari, I would not call him innocent...far from it. ......I suspect most 'youths' coming out of Jails are not innocent.
For example, take the case of Shahid Bilal (Huji operative) of Hyderabad, Andhra. Bilal was a founding member of Huji in India and was assassinated in Karachi by RAW. Now a brother of Bilal Majid was arrested by Andhra police for another blast case and was allegedly tortured in Jail few years ago. Police could not secure a conviction in court and court set him free and ordered government to provide monetary compensation. All Muslim organisations and people like YOU hailed this verdict. But Majid fled to Saudi Arabia shortly without collecting money from Govt. Now Majid is believed to be the ISI handler of Abu Jundal in Saudi Arabia!!! Now Indian government is trying to extradite Majid from Saudi !!!! Funny fact is our policemen always knew Majid was an ISI terrorist and even managed to put him in jail for some time. But courts set him free AND asked govt to give him few lakhs rupees as compensation!!! I suspect most other freed 'innocent' Muslim youth are like Majid.....
@Anwar- You say Lashkar claimed Ishrat falsely!! OK, I assume our home secretary GK Pillai is a Lashkar agent and was trying to give them credit by saying Ishrat was a terrorist????? ?) LOL
 

Prasanth,

I will stand by innocence of Ishrat and of Khwaja Yunus, who was killed in police custody in Mumbai. About others I really do not know. I will inform myself of the facts and get back to you in some future thread. Even in 'entrapment' cases US hands heavier sentences than Indian courts do in 'real' cases. Thanks for the information.

 D-73/41 well argued Prasanth. I liked your post.

"Ashish Khetan single handedly got more evidence that ultimately nailed the Naroda Patiya criminals than SIT with all the state machinery at its disposal"

can you tell our friends on this blog how many times this investigator Ashish Ketam avoided personnel appearance along with his video tape before Nanavathi commission? Anyone can anser this "Why Ashish Did So" need not to be Saroja Mami only...

Same was very much available on all news channel highlgihting his own achivement of investigating the whole episode and this will bring surprise to every one that this fellow was readily available for SIT in Gandhinagar but not to Nanavathi Commission in Ahmedabad. I still rememebr congress sympathising news paper Diya Bhaskar even went on publishing news that Ashish Ketan have been given ultimatem for appearing before commission....

Catch It!!!!

 Jaykumar,

The tapes also contained serious allegations against the functioning of the Nanavati–Shah commission. The special public prosecutor for the Gujarat government, Arvind Pandya, told me the commission was partisan towards Modi, and its proceedings were compromised. After the exposé, the commission issued a statement that it would summon the tapes and look into them. But they never asked TEHELKA for the tapes. Nor did they conduct any inquiry.

www.tehelka.com/story_main53.asp

 >> "I will stand by innocence of Ishrat and of Khwaja Yunus, who was killed in police custody in Mumbai." - Saroja

Why? Because they were Muslims? Or, is that statement to simply concede that you have no answers to Prashant's arguments, but still want to stick to your "secular rationale"?

Shoddy attempts are made to obfuscate the issue when Muslims are on rampage in Godhra, Hyderabad, Meerut, Assam, you name it. How long are we going to keep our eyes close to the rabid communalization of a significant 15% population

Self-styled sickulars like you cause more damage to the country that those terrorists. Here is letter from another self-styled sickulars asking the Muslims to vote for "secular' candidate, "preferably muslims". It is common knowledge how various local Islamic heads make "recommendations' to the community. In remote areas, political ratification is provided during azaan - on microphone. So much for secularism.

www.milligazette.com/news/4577-syed-shahabuddin-clarifies-his-stand-on-modi-and-gujarat-elections-indian-muslims-news

I have no doubt that even Kasab would have been defended by these jokers if he was not a Pakistani. Remember the "RSS ki saazish" escape-act that never took off? Would it have got more attention if Kasab was an Indian? When they get an opportunity, even the most loved celebrities like Azharuddin, Salman and Sanjay Dutt claim that they are being harassed because of their religion (or mother being a Muslim). Ever wondered why it is only the Muslims who struggle to integrate in cross-cultural society? Ever wondered why any dissenting voice have to be summarily labelled as "communal" (be it Jews, Hindus, Christians) when one has to  defend any Muslim issue?

The tapes also contained serious allegations against the functioning of the Nanavati–Shah commission.

Tape what Nanavathi Commission was looking for was on Naroda Patia as per the news paper of those days for which he was asked to appear for explantion...Now serious allegation is nothing new for Nanavatahi, for Ashish and Theleka had serious reservation towards SIT at later point of time but rejoiced when SIT asked Modi to appear before it.

 >> "Ahmedabad Magistrate Tamang, who carried out the most thorough inquest, categorically denied any link between Ishrat and any terrorist group." - Anwaar

Is that the best that a you can come up with in defence of your favorite jihadi? While you were spreading your noble notions of secularism on other platforms, the High Court rejected the report for the motives ascribed and the hasty manner in which it was prepared. 

The mullah apologists are yet to answer what Ishrat was doing with the other two alleged Pakistanis, Amjad Ali Rana and Zeeshan Johar. Their only contention has been that they were Indians, but no counter-prof presented.

I have not read it but am 110% sure that nowhere does the Koran ask its followers to rise in teh defense of terrorists. Why do the Muslim Indians feel obligated to do so?

Irreverent Indian,

This is what I had posted in this forum On Khwaja Yunus, who was arrested in Ghatkopar Blast case of Dec 2002, and was tortured to death -  www.outlookindia.com/feedbacks.aspx 

is that statement to simply concede that you have no answers to Prashant's arguments

I have acknowleged that I do not understand all the cases that he mentions.

Is it your case that radicalization of a section of muslims is to dealt by labelling and jilling of innocents? Find a fault in the link posted

@ Saroja

Let me use your own phrase, with a little modification:

Sometimes one wonders whether the seculars are seriously interested in getting to the bottom of the case or merely interested in defending whatever theory they had first thought of, unable to change track in face of new facts coming to light.

>> "Is it your case that radicalization of a section of muslims is to dealt by labelling and jilling of innocents?"

Obviously not. But, how come the sickulars are so cock-sure about the innocence of the accused, almost immediately after they are nabbed or killed? Be it Batla, Ishrat or any other case involving Muslim terrorists, these jokers would attempt to discredit even the facts from the Home Ministry presided upon by a secular, pro-Muslim government.

If Muslims and seculars refuse to acknowledge the growign radicalization of Indian Muslims, don't expect others to keep their eyes shut.

Irreverent >>The mullah apologists are yet to answer what Ishrat was doing with the other two alleged Pakistanis

It is not just Tamang report. The SIT headed by appointed by HC also held the encounter fake and that the four were killed before the "encounter " date. Clearly you have got unhinged by the death of one of your two secular ideals.

I don't know about Koran and I am not a muslim either. But it is common humanity to come to the defence of innocents.

 >> "But it is common humanity to come to the defence of innocents." -  Saroja

And, who gives the certificate of innocence? Sickulars? 

And, why does this "humanity" get aroused only in case of Muslims? Worse still, why this sense of humanity is denied to non-Muslims, be it Godhra, Azad, Rajbala etc?

#53 

>>> But, how come the sickulars are so cock-sure about the innocence of the accused, almost immediately after they are nabbed or killed?

I have never objected to anyone being arrested on suspicion, provided a proper investigation is speedily conducted and if found innocent, rehabilitation and compensation is made. But it is true that when I first heard of Ishrat encounter, I knew it had to be fake. This is not a proof which has been established by Tamang as well as by Verma SIT report.It is just the confidence that I have in my understanding of certain sick minds behind the killings.

Many seculars are very well aware of radicalization among muslims, and according to Javed Anand one of the reasons why many secular hindus do not condemn muslim extremism vigorously is because they feel guilty about attrocities against muslims. He calls for everyone to condemn extremism of every hue vigorously. 

I am not sure that you can accuse me of being unable to change track in face of new facts coming to light. On the contrary I am quite gullible but am aware of it. 

centreright.in/2012/11/bhagyalakshmi-temple-issue-facts-revealed/ 

 Be it Batla, Ishrat or any other case involving Muslim terrorists, these jokers would attempt to discredit even the facts from the Home Ministry presided upon by a secular, pro-Muslim government.

Have you seen the cover of 'Eminent Historians' by Arun Shourie ? It perfectly fits these idiots..

 >>>And, why does this "humanity" get aroused only in case of Muslims?

Clearly not. You are prejudiced. Have a look at www.outlookindia.com/feedbacks.aspx

Irreverent,

>>  the High Court rejected the report  for the motives ascribed and the hasty manner in which it was prepared.

You are a liar! The Gujarat High Court granted a stay on the report of the Ahmedabad Metropolitan Magistrate, S.P. Tamang, declaring the June 2004 police encounter with Ishrat Jehan and three others “fake”. This was done on technical grounds, namely that the High Court was already seized of the matter. The High Court, however, allowed the report to be submitted before the three-member Special Investigation Team (SIT).

>> The mullah apologists are yet to answer what Ishrat was doing ....

Those questions would have been easier to answer if they had not been "encountered". Your using words like "mullah apologists" show a repugnant and execrable frame of mind but are not surprising coming from a self-confessed genocide proponent.

Irreverent,

>> And, who gives the certificate of innocence? Sickulars?

A person is presumed innocent until proven guilty. For hate-crazed morons like you however a Muslim is guilty from the start. He is guilty even if proved innocent!

>> A person is presumed innocent until proven guilty

Except Modi and Savarkar.

>> It is not just Tamang report. The SIT headed by appointed by HC also held the encounter fake and that the four were killed before the "encounter " date.

Is this your response to

The mullah apologists are yet to answer what Ishrat was doing with the other two alleged Pakistanis

When the question clearly is about Ishrat's presence and company, you start talking about the encounter.

You give physicists a real bad name, painting them as illogical and incoherent.

Kafi Ladna Jagdna oo gaya..Cahalo lets see what Medha Patker is doing.....

Very good link by Kranti Sena..It has got pdf of mail correspondence attached...in this link and padne ke bhaad aake kuli ki kuli rahe jayegi.....

http://bhagatsinghkrantisena.blogspot.com/2012/05/medha-patkar-exposed.html

Like Medha Patker how many are there in our country US only can tell..."In God We Trust"....

 Anwaar,

A person is presumed innocent until proven guilty

Except in the case of Vinod Rai whose integrity cannot be assumed unless he proves it. Please be consistent.

@Saroja-OK, may your faith save you! I don’t want to question your beliefs!! It seems unshakable under rational questions!

@Sandilya – Thanks

@Irrelevant & whats inaname - What is the point in arguing with people whose basic thought process seemed to be based on “faith” rather than rational thought & common sense!! Anwar ,Saroja etc probably know too well that Ishrat in all likelihood was a terrorist. But accepting so would burst the bubbly universe they built over the years….. You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep..can you?
There was an article in Guardian about Gujrat and Narendra Modi. Here is a snippet
From Guardian article published last week.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/nov/19/david-cameron-india-narendra-modi
 

“At the end of February 2002, a train carrying Hindu pilgrims caught fire in the Gujarati town of Godhra. At the time, it was widely reported that the blaze, which killed 59 passengers, had been caused by Muslims; it has since been suggested that it may have been an accident.”

But the truth is, a court CONVICTED 36 muslims in Godhra for burning the train in Feb 2011 The convicts are currently serving their life sentences in a Gujrat Jail. The Hindu paper Feb 2011: “judge P.R. Patel said all the 31 accused were held guilty on two major counts — Section 120B (criminal conspiracy) and 302 (murder) of the Indian Penal Code.”
Now- the Guardian writer Aditya Chakraborty (economics leader writer for the Guardian) is not an ill informed person or stupid. He knows very well that a acourt actually convicted Muslims for burning the train and ‘fire by accident’ is a discredited theory. But he will not accept the truth, because if he tells the truth that will be against everything he & Guardian stood for the last 12 years or so (since Godhra carnage). So they are repeating the same lie!!! The ‘secular’ readers of Guardian too probably realise that this is a lie but they would rather BELIVE a lie than hear the truth –which is so inconvenient!! To my knowledge Guardian has not retracted or apologized for this lie and is unlikely to do so in future. Same with the terror deniers in India. They are hopeless!
 

>> "Your using words like "mullah apologists" show a repugnant and execrable frame of mind" - Anwaar

1. One should have no qualms about using that term for apologists of Jihadis and Islamofascists.

2. The jokers who liberally use terms like guttersinpes, Hitler, Hindutva etc. should not preach us on decency. If you can't take it, don't dish it out.

>>Terrorist groups race with each other to claim some operational ownership.

Really? And what operation was this? The operation of getting killed in a fake encounter? Just justifications are so pathetic!

>> If you can't take it, don't dish it out

The jehadis are not satisfied with first claims. They want exclusive claims, to both dish it out, as well as whine like stuck pigs if others give back.

Bonita,

>>>> A person is presumed innocent until proven guilty.
>> Except in the case of Vinod Rai whose integrity cannot be assumed unless he proves it.

He cannot be called guilty. But asking whether he has committed errors or has a political  agenda is perfectly legitimate. Let the process play itself out. Your defending Vinod Rai is okay, but don't you think you are overdoing it?

 PRASANTH
MELBOURNE,
Guardian and The Hindu are colonial cousins and masters of glossing and varnishing if it is about Muslim  misdeeds. Most things British I like except this liar Guardian. It is antithesis of general British ethos of fairness and honesty.

BTW, Prasanth, did you point out to Guardian their white lie?

Irreverent,

 >>  apologists of Jihadis and Islamofascists.

For you all Muslims are Jihadis and Islamofascists. Even the worst VHP-ites are not as full of hate as you.

>>  use terms like guttersinpes, Hitler, Hindutva etc.

Show me a single example where I have used those terms inappropriately. I would never use any of those terms for anyone just because he is a Hindu or just because he disagrees with me.

Sandilya,

>> Guardian and The Hindu are colonial cousins and masters of glossing and varnishing if it is about Muslim misdeeds.

That is just rubbish. They are both respectable news papers.

Prasanth,

>> Anwar ,Saroja etc probably know too well that Ishrat in all likelihood was a terrorist.

A silly comment! You need to introspect yourself on how you got yourself so convinced that this 19 year old college girl from Mumbai was a terrorist.

 >> "You need to introspect yourself on how you got yourself so convinced that this 19 year old college girl from Mumbai was a terrorist." - Anwaar

Stupid argument!! How old was Kasab when he entered the jihad school? Osama ji started at 22. Omar Khadr was 15 years old. There are ample reports of 10-15 year olds taking to jihad in Pakistan and Afghanistan. What could have been the average age of those resorting to intafada in Kashmir?

What was this "college girl" doing with alleged Pakistanis and a convert with (at least) two passports? 

 Anwaar,

But asking whether he has committed errors or has a political agenda is perfectly legitimate.

If the  CAG has erred, dispute his report on facts. Unfortunately, this is not the approach of those whom his reports have made uncomfortable. Since his reports cannot be faulted on substance, the only alternative is to make aspersions on his integrity and ascribe political motives. Needless to say, no one has come out with any proof or evidence to substantiate these allegations that Vinod Rai has a political agenda. If you have some please share it with the rest of us.

i said earlier and I repeat - If you can't shake a witness' evidence, try and discredit him so as to weaken the evidentiary value of his testimony. That unfortunately, is what your party of choice and you are doing.

Irreverent,

>> What was this "college girl" doing with alleged Pakistanis and a convert with (at least) two passports?

None of your stupid arguments impressed either Magistrate Tamang or any of the other investigating agencies. A fake encounter would be criminal even if she aroused suspicion unless the safety of the police officers was at risk. But this must be beyond the understanding of a shameless supporter of fake encounters like yourself.

RSM,

>>  And what operation was this?

The imaginary assassination attempt on Modi. Modi and his favorite police officer Vanzara were obsessed by this.

Bonita,

>> If you can't shake a witness' evidence, try and discredit him....

BJP would have done the same thing if it was  in Congress's place.

@@Prasanth

Prasanth,
You may be right about the persons you are discussing but police go wrong many times. If the courts do not find any evidence, the suspect has to be set free.

Yes, you are right , that "x" or this "y" had escaped to Saudi and proved to be a terrorist , which off course all the while police were insisting but let free by court etc., etc.,

The point is about a law to protect innocents. To be or not to be that is the question. How do you want it to function? Police is a highly corrupt force inspite of some of the brilliant officers in that dept. . And yet do you want to completely rely on it? Do you think Sadvi Pargna and Col.Purohit are really culprits? There were at least half-a-dozen hyderabadi muslim boys who were tortured for months in various police stations and finally let free by police themselves!! Is that professionalism?. It had become evident as later events proved that these boys were innocent!!

If some day you and I were arrested just because we happen to be at a wrong place, at a wrong time and with a record of criticizing all in power, there will be no one to protect us but the law
 

>>Terrorist groups race with each other to claim some operational ownership

>>Really? And what operation was this? The operation of getting killed in a fake encounter? Just justifications are so pathetic!

>>The imaginary assassination attempt on Modi.

Ok, now give us just one instance where terrorist groups have raced with each other to claim ownership of an imaginary assassination attempt.

>>BJP would have done the same thing if it was in Congress's place.

Congress stooges are just shameless liars. CAG had raised questions on the Centaur Hotel disinvestment. Instead of pasting motives, the NDA gave point by point rebuttal following which the CAG was silenced. Yet it didn't stop UPA from ordering a CBI inquiry.

Anyway Congress toadies derive their morals from the Congress itself. Hence even when the party is caught indulging in fraud, deceit, loot of humongous proportions etc, they will still defend it by saying BJP 'would' have done the same thing under the circumstances. Such responses esentially shows their character.

@BOWENPALLE VENURAJA GOPAL RAO.
I agree with you, my argument was not for a lawless trigger happy police force but on the contrary.
>>police go wrong many times. If the courts do not find any evidence, the suspect has to be set free.>>
Yes, and that's how it should be. It is court's job to free the suspect if prosecution can’t prove their case. Having said that, in India criminal conviction rate is abnormally low including terror cases (If my memory is correct less than 25%). Which means more than 80% of terror suspects and criminal suspects walk free from our courts (no doubt many of them are truly innocent & many of them not so innocent) Hence the argument for a radical police reforms- As I said before, take the example of USA. FBI made many terror arrests in USA during last couple of years (many of them entrapments). FBI made sure they have done all the arrests lawfully and got proper arrest warrants, search warrants etc from courts and made sure they have a water tight case. Result? Almost every single one of the arrested terror suspect pleaded guilty in the court. Why? Because, their case was so tight, that the culprit had only 2 options, either deny the crimes and risk the death penalty OR plead guilty and accept a long life sentence. Naturally all terrorists chose the latter path, Hence we don’t see many Anwars, Sarojas and Jamia Mila teachers shedding tears for arrested 'innocent muslim youths' in USA
But what is happening in India?? Every single terror suspect deny their crime and plead innocence in our courts- hence even Ajmal Kasab said he was innocent!!! It’s like no one killed Jessica (or No one made the blasts)!!! Our prosecution do not plan ahead and end up torturing the suspects and not recording the witness accounts properly (like any other govt dept). Naturally courts will throw out the cases and release the suspects. Hence we need to setup world class police training institutes with foreign help.
And Sadvi Pragya and Col Purohit- I don’t know whether they are guilty or not (i hope they are not)….. but I suspect they will be freed by supreme court eventually (even if they are guilty)….

@Sandilya- 100s of readers already commented abour Guardian’s lies- don’t think they care,
 

 @@PRASANTH, MELBOURNE,

The poor rate of criminal conviction in India as against the US owes much to the state of police force here. The fault is not entirely police's. It is a complex issue of poor quality of man power, poor leadership and antiquated infrastructure, too few policemen for the task on hand, political interference and of course lack of rigor in the investigation due to poor training in law and forensic sciences.

You must have heard that some of the best outgoing students and ivy school grads in USA choose to join CIA / FBI out of their own motivation and aptitude. Did we ever hear management grads from IIMs joining the police? Even the IPS is not getting  better brains as it was the case earlier. With such poor compensation as is offered to the officer class in the govt. service, the best don't get to choose govt services especially the police force which unfortunately doesn't carry real prestige at lower levels. I have heard fathers of pretty girls refusing to give their girls to IPS officers in marriage telling that police only take orders and by job they are subordinates !! That mindset should change of course.

"..according to Javed Anand one of the reasons why many secular hindus do not condemn muslim extremism vigorously is because they feel guilty about atrocities against muslims. He calls for everyone to condemn extremism of every hue vigorously." Saroja

I agree with Mr. Anand's call to condemn all forms of extermism but I believe his diagnosis of the problem is mistaken. Condemnation of Muslim extremism is muted not just in India but all over the world, and it is because people have come to expect Muslims to behave like savages and are not surprised when they do. If someone is torn apart by hyenas, we don't condemn the hyenas - we expect them to behave like wild animals do - and we are more likely to wonder why that person was foolish enough to venture into the jungle. Conversely, if a cow or a horse goes on a rampage, we wonder what triggered a normally mild animal to act in that way.

Some examples:

A few months ago, a group of Palestinians murdered a Jewish family in Itamar, even beheading their little three-month old daughter. The BBC did not even report this incident. Suppose a group of Israeli soldiers had beheaded a little Muslim girl. You would hearing about that in 2250 AD.

Similarly, prominent Muslim clerics like the imam of the Grand Mosque in Saudi Arabia routinely refer to Jews as "pigs and monkeys" (it's from that "holy" Koran). The grand Mufti of Jerusalem recently gave a speech in which he reminded people of Muhammad's prophecy that "Judgment Day will not come until Muslims kill all the Jews." There was little criticism of these clerics, least of all from Muslims. But if the Pope or the Archbishop of Canterbury had called, say, Hindus "pigs and monkeys" and said we needed to be exterminated, the biggest condemnation would have come from Christians themselves, and that cleric would be removed from office the next day.

In Mali, Sudan and Mauritania, Muslim Arabs are still hunting down and enslaving African Christians and animists. But this does not get much publicity. The slave trade of America, which ended more than 100 years ago, is discussed more today than the Muslim slave trade of today.

This sets up a very unfortunate dynamic. Since criticism of this kind of horrific behaviour is muted, Muslims feel free to continue behaving this way while their slick propagandists in non-Muslim countries pose as victims and harp on any guilt feelings the rest of the world may have. This is not to say that all Muslims act like savages - far from it. But all this foul "apes and pigs" stuff, rampant terrorism, moronic fatwas, calls to genocide, religiously blessed murder for apostasy and blasphemy etc. are found in only one religion in the world today, and it is time for the rest of us to demand that it needs to end.

And if I am wrong and it does come down to guilt, let me know when Muslims express any guilt for the slaughter of millions of Hindus, Sikhs and others over the centureis who were killed because we were kaffirs and idolaters, for the senseless and barbaric destruction of thousands of temples and monasteries all over India, for the genocide of millions of Hindus in East Pakistan in 1971, for the extermination of ancient Hindu and Sikh communities in Pakistan that is ongoing *today*, and for the complete ethnic cleansing of Hindus and Sikhs from Kashmir. As we have heard even from the moderates on this forum, none of this ever happened!

>> Stupid argument!! How old was Kasab when he entered the jihad school? Osama ji started at 22. Omar Khadr was 15 years old. There are ample reports of 10-15 year olds taking to jihad in Pakistan and Afghanistan. What could have been the average age of those resorting to intafada in Kashmir?

Don't bombard him with facts. There are more facts in a few sentences than he learned in his entire Madrassa education.

That is why he gets unhinged and makes stupid statements like

A fake encounter would be criminal

So instead of answering the question as to what she was doing in the company of Pakis, he starts talking about the encounter.

Maybe he thinks the forum is like his jehad school, where dishonesty and lying are taught and appreciated.

 Fedup Indian #85,

Shall I tell you something?  Till a few months back I was not even aware that some feel the need that Indians should apologize for what is happening in other countries. But yes, if a section feel the need to protest over what is happening elsewhere, they should also feel responsible for the wrongs done by those for whom they are fighting. About what happened hundreds of years ago, I really can't care. Even if it is established that I am granddaughter of Hitler or Stalin, I do not feel responsible for what their evil. Except in that, I do not want the sort of evil that came through them should ever happen again. And if in my country there is any sign of such things coming, to the best of my abilities and understandings, I shall fight it.

That way I feel responsible for what is happening in Kashmir and Assam and I must confess to a lot of ignorance on my part over these issues. Now Pandits have slowly started to return and that is how it should be. Also possible human right abuse cases are being investigated instead of being swept under the carpet. www.indianexpress.com/news/-a-thousand-ft-deep-gorge-where-crows-are-eating-corpses--and-other-tales-from-kashmir/970656/0  

Fedup,

>> Condemnation of Muslim extremism is muted not just in India but all over the world.

This is false, but whatever condemnation is meted out to Muslims will never be enough to quench the raging fires of hate in the hearts of the Internet Hindus. But do carry on using this forum for your continuing hate prachar!

RSM,

>>  just one instance where terrorist groups have raced with each other to claim ownership of an imaginary assassination attempt.

It was not uncommon for as many as three or four terrorist groups  to claim a terrorist act a few years ago, but if you think I am going to spend my time on Google in response to your ignorance, you are mistaken.

Prasanth,

About Godhra arson -

From 8.30 a.m. when the Godhra attack on the Sabarmati Express took place until 7.30 p.m. that evening, repeated statements by the Godhra district collector, Jayanthi Ravi relayed on Doordarshan and Akashwani (radio) stated that "the incident was not pre-planned, it was an accident." It was only after 7-7.30 p.m., when CM Narendra Modi spoke and called it a ‘pre-planned, violent act of terrorism’ that the official version changed.
As we have seen above, investigating officials have yet to find any proof of the Godhra atrocity being pre-planned. Nonetheless, Modi, Union home minister LK Advani and others continue to reiterate the distorted version of the motive behind the incident at Godhra. When and why the government’s version changed needs serious investigation because it is widely believed that it is the ‘pre-planned, violent act of terrorism’ theory, pronounced by politicians and given a huge splash by much of the Gujarati press, which provided the lethal charge to the ‘backlash’.

 (This reporter has been told about a confidential meeting between the top brass of the BJP cabinet, the VHP, the RSS and the Bajrang Dal on the evening of February 27, allegedly to plan details of the carnage that was to follow. (See ‘Police’ section.) If true, this might offer some clue as to why the official version underwent a dramatic shift)

The train then started moving but stopped again, coming to a halt near the ‘A’ cabin.
How did the train stop near the ‘A’ cabin?
Six months after the incident, the Gujarat government extracted two confessions, from Anwar Kalandar and another Muslim boy. They ‘confessed’ that they had stopped the train by boarding the running train and rotating the ‘alarm chain disc’ from outside.
Kalandar subsequently withdrew his confession, claiming it was extracted under torture. However, what is even more significant is the information that since 1995 the railways have modified the design of the alarm chain pulling system (ACP) to curb its misuse. (To escape a check, ticketless passengers jumped off/on the train by rotating the disc from outside to stop the train beyond platform limits.) This fact obviously escaped the Gujarat police’s attention while they were extracting a confession from Kalandar.
On an enquiry made of the railway authorities by the JSM during commission proceedings it was learnt that all 18 coaches of the Sabarmati Express possessed the modified alarm chain system. Therefore the train’s vacuum brakes could not have been activated by turning the alarm disc from outside. The ACP can only be operated from inside the coaches and corrected from outside.

...What did the district superintendent of police, Raju Bishankumar Bhargav, see inside coach S-6?
Bhargav’s deposition before the commission is very important so as to comprehend the severity of the fire and the speed with which it spread. He said that he had reached the burning coach at about 8.30 a.m. i.e. barely 15-17 minutes after the fire began.
Bhargav said he saw people with blackened faces and with some burn injuries to the head, coming out of the coach. He saw 10 or 12 passengers coming out of the coach; they were coming out of the coach door on the Godhra town side. The injuries that he noticed were on the upper part of passengers’ bodies. He did not notice any injuries below the waist area.

...........Ø The burning of coach S-6 of the Sabarmati Express on February 27, 2002 was not the result of any pre-planned conspiracy by Muslims. It was not due to petrol or inflammable fluid that coach S-6 burnt down but due to the flash fire that followed the initial ignition. The luggage caught fire thereafter and burnt the coach at a slower rate.
Ø The commission should order a fresh investigation by a body of experts who have a special knowledge of fire in enclosed spaces.

....If there was a “conspiracy” in Godhra, it was not by the Muslims. Ashish Khetan picks apart Judge Patel’s verdict and shows how a devious lie was constructed

This post will become too long. Read all here including Tewatia report and the Tehelka sting operation   hope-and-hope.blogspot.in/2012/10/gujarat-2002-godhra.html 

>> From 8.30 a.m. when the Godhra attack on the Sabarmati Express took place until 7.30 p.m. that evening, repeated statements by the Godhra district collector, Jayanthi Ravi relayed on Doordarshan and Akashwani (radio) stated that "the incident was not pre-planned, it was an accident."

Didn't Sharad Pawar deliberately lie after the Bombay blasts to prevent rioting? Was Ravi following the same formula?

The courts have upheld the conspiracy theory, and ruled out the accident angle. Unless a higher court overtuns the verdict, that's the truth, no matter the conspiracy theories woven by Khaitan or some other "secular".

 >>Didn't Sharad Pawar deliberately lie after the Bombay blasts to prevent rioting?

Sorry, I missed that. What did he say?

>> Sorry, I missed that. What did he say?

On 11 July 2006, the Chief Minister of Maharashtra during the blasts, Sharad Pawar, admitted, on record, that he had "deliberately misled" people following the 1993 Bombay blasts by saying there were "12 and not 11" explosions, adding the name of a Muslim-dominated locality to show that people from both communities had been affected.[26] He tried to justify this deception by claiming that it was a move to prevent communal riots by falsely portraying that both Hindu and Muslim communities in the city had been affected adversely. He also admits to lying about evidence recovered and misleading people into believing that some of it pointed to the Tamil Tigers as possible suspects.[26]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1993_Bombay_bombings#Aftermath

>> If there was a “conspiracy” in Godhra, it was not by the Muslims. Ashish Khetan picks apart Judge Patel’s verdict and shows how a devious lie was constructed

Just yesterday, the resident jehadi was sanctimoniously preaching about everyone being presumed innocent till proven guilty (though of course he refuses to extend that courtesy to Modi. Also, does this logic apply to Osama ji and Dawood ji).

It seems that when it comes to Muslim terrorists, they are innocent even if proven guilty. And when it comes to Hindutva terrorists like Savarkar, they are guilty even when proven innocent.

 >>> It seems that when it comes to Muslim terrorists, they are innocent even if proven guilty. And when it comes to Hindutva terrorists like Savarkar, they are guilty even when proven innocent.

WHATS IN A NAME

The holy Quran enjoins on the believers to treat the infidels as unequal. So its not the fault of Muslims but the teaching they are taught.
Thanks to the white washing by Marxist historians, they  successfully white washed the great oppression and unequal treatment of Hindus, the majority in their own country, under the Muslim rule.
Till the British arrived, there was no equality under law, a tenet we all fail to acknowledge the Brits for.Time the History taught in the schools is written and taught objectively.

"About what happened hundreds of years ago, I really can't care." Saroja

I care, but only because Santayana was right when he said those who forget the past are condemned to repeat it. The Hindoo, as the British observed famously, has a sense of the past but no sense of history, which is why we have learnt nothing from our terrible history.

But in a larger sense, I agree with you. No one living today is responsible for what happened in the past. You are responsible for your actions. Not for your community's actions or your ancestors' actions or anything else. I also believe that individuals should be judged as individuals - the jails of India are surely filled to the brim with evil people of all communities - and that all citizens of India, regardless of their caste, religions or anything else, should be treated equally, and if you want to fight for that, I am with you.

Where you and I part ways is in our priorities. You want to focus on places like Gujarat, where 1000-2000 Muslims were the victims of Hindu violence in 2002. But justice is being done there - even high level ministers like Meera Kodnani have been jailed. Meanwhile, the entire Hindu and Sikh communities in Pakistan are being exterminated by Muslim violence, those who can are fleeing to India recounting horrific tales of brutality and violence, and the only discussion I see in India is whether India, being a secular country, can legally given refuge to Hindu and Sikh Pakistanis!

If the Israelis kill 50 Palestinians in Gaza, our government rushes up to issue denunciations about "disproportionate force". But thousands of Hindus and Sikhs are being killed, forcibly converted, raped and ethnically cleansed in Pakistan, and the only statement we get is about how "confidence building measures must continue regardless of road bumps on the way" as some moronic government spokesman wrote in Outlook a few weeks ago.

It is this utter indifference among Indians of all stripes and the absurd inversion of priorities among the secular brigade that enrages even people like me.

@ANWAAR @89D/21
It is generally believed that terrorist groups do not claim if a highly placed political personality was assassinated. It is one of the most  important principles to understand for the students of criminal science.

For example Tigers never claimed Rajiv Gandhi’s assassination, until very late , many years after Prabhakaran apologized.

Same is the case with Indira Gandhi' assassination, Mahatma Gandhi's assassination, John.F.Kennedy's  assassination or that of Abraham Lincoln. Nearer home Zail-ul-haq's assassination or that of Benazir Bhutto.

For example whatever organization was behind Indira Gandhi's assassination it had cleverly covered up its tracks. In "profiling" there is yet another way of looking at and that  is to observe who should have benefited. This shall lead to the prime one that is Pakistan and second one USA (considering politics at the time ) .

In criminal " profiling" ( which is a highly scientific study now, US universities offer specialized courses , though it is totally absent in India ) of a murder of a high "value" political target, it is important to remember that organizations never claim an assassination as a rule.
 

@ "About what happened hundreds of years ago, I really can't care." This attitude is wrong.

What happened hundreds of years ago, happened as a consequence of a certain belief system whose core philosophy is based on intolerance of diversity and coercion. The same belief system still exists today in a more virulent form. A new set of people does not reset the system as long as the belief system remains the same. Effect is an output of a certain cause. The cause remaining the same, the output will be no different. Time and people are just witness.

The British rightly said that Indians (read Hindus) have a very poor sense of history. Those who do not know history are condemned to repeat it. God helps those to help themselves. The tragedy is that the descendants of the Hindu victims of the historical oppression are the most passionate apologists of the oppressors, helped in large part by the "secular" Hindus who have been bleached dry by the McCaulay based education system.

Sandilya,

>> The holy Quran enjoins on the believers to treat the infidels as unequal.

What does the Quran have to do with this discussion? Your comments are getting sillier and sillier!

Bowenpalle,

What you say is interesting, but Ishrat was not a highly placed political personality. The vast majority of terrorist attacks are not the kinds of assassinations that you mentioned.

>>It was not uncommon for as many as three or four terrorist groups to claim a terrorist act a few years ago, but if you think I am going to spend my time on Google in response to your ignorance, you are mistaken.

It is clear you have not been taught to read the question before answering.