Apropos your story on Pakistan’s softer stance on Siachen (Abominable Snowmen, May 14), Kayani’s climbdown means nothing. For all he says, Kayani will not stop promoting his terror operatives to carry out strikes against India. And Siachen is not an isolated issue; it’s part of the complete security situation as exists between India and Pakistan.

Ashutosh Kaul, Toronto

The only comforting thing in the piece was the map that showed the entire Siachen glacier under Indian control. The other, Pakistan’s apparent nuancing of its stand, is just a replay of its 60-year-old duplicitous propaganda.

Gurudev Shorey, Houston

Even if we’re remotely contemplating giving up territory captured and held at great cost to a backstabbing, untrustworthy neighbour, we must be the biggest morons to walk this earth. As per the resolution of our Parliament, the entire state of J&K (of which Siachen is a part) is Indian territory, though parts of it are occupied by Pakistan and China. The very fact that one needs to guard what is rightfully one’s territory round the clock—for fear of certain, illegal occupation—is reason enough not to grant Pakistan an audience on the issue. Demilitarisation essentially depends on Pakistan packing its bags and getting away. For good.

Vikas Kalra, New Delhi

It would be wrong to demilitarise Indian forces in Siachen, as it would surely lead to another Kargil. Aren’t the sacrifices by our armed forces greater than the seasonal swing of foreign policies of the two nations? India should not compromise its national security. It must remember that Pakistan is in a bad way, caught in the vortex of the war (for and) against terrorism, and needs a let-up somewhere. Its ‘softness’ is just crocodile tears.

J.B. Sunuwar, Jalpaiguri

Contrarian, All the assertions in my post can be checked by doing a few minutes of searching on the Internet. To help you with your education, I'm posting a few links.

"perhaps you know more than Nehru on why he stopped Gen. Kariappa "finish the job"... how do you know what Patel advised?"

See for example http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vallabhbhai_Patel
"..Patel strongly advised Nehru against going for arbitration to the United Nations." 

In fact, Patil was the one who saved Hyderabad - when Nehru was sunning his buns in Europe, Patil took advantage of it and started Operation Polo which was wrapped up in 4 days. By the time a furious Nehru flew back to India, it was all over and there was nothing that that moron could do. Were it not for Patil, we would have had another cancer in the heart of our country (and in my hometown).

"Inder Gujral ended Counter-Intelligence-Team-X and Counter-Intelligence-Team-J activities of RAW in Pakistan on "moral grounds." "  Hearsay.

See http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/Indias%20Al%20Qaeda/3/22426.html

"...Experts like Ajai Sahni of the Centre for Conflict Studies call for secret action against the LeT camps and leadership inside Pakistan. “Short of covert capabilities and targeted covert options, nothing else will work against them,” says Sahni. A capability that I.K. Gujral dismantled as prime minister over a decade ago will take over a year to rebuild."

"India cd have never crossed the LoC (not even the air sapce determined by it) as that wd have meant a full scale war"

This is the dhimmi mindset that is the problem in India. Pakistan can violate the LoC (Kargil and Dhras), Pakistan can send terrorists into cities like Mumbai and Delhi to murder hundreds of innocent Indians in cold blood (see Mumbai terrorist attacks, attack on Parliament), etc. but that does not lead to "full scale war," whatever that is. But we cannot defend ourselves against this aggression even by crossing into Pakistani airspace because that is going to lead to "full scale war?" Until we change this dhimmi mindset and go after these vermin, Pakistan will keep attacking us - with people like you running the show, what do they have to lose?

@fedup

 Most of our PMs have been from the cow-belt, and the average Hindiwalla feels closer culturally to Pakistanis than he does to "Madrasis" or Assamese. So they are always ready to jump into bed with the first Pakistani who winks at them no matter how many times they get it in the rear from Pakistanis

not surrpising , the "Pakistan Project" had its origins in UP cities  like Lucknow. The Pakistani elite today was  the Persian feudal elite of the Awadh. Ironically Pashtuns and Balochis have nothing in common with them as well

 Whats left behind is the so called Ganga Jamuna culture that Vajpayee and Vinod Mehat are so fond of

@contrarian

And perhaps you know more than Nehru on why he stopped Gen. Kariappa "finish the job"... how do you know what Patel advised? Do you know what wd have happened? Britain followed by USA wd have immediately entered the scene, taken the issue to the UN (controlled by them) and send their own troops into Kashmir (in the guise of peacekeeping) and internationalise Kashmir in a cold war power play .

I doubt that. It was up for taking. 

The west would not have intervened becasue the cold war had not reached this area (remember this was 1948).  Pakistan didn't really joing CEATO (or CENTO, or whatever) till  a few years later.

Its a wonder how India survived Nehru

FEDUP

>>> When the Indian army routed the Pakistani invaders in Kashmir in 1948, Nehru ordered them to stop and ran off to the UN to file a complaint there instead of letting the army finish the job. Sardar Patel and others advised him against it but they were brushed aside.

And perhaps you know more than Nehru on why he stopped Gen. Kariappa "finish the job"... how do you know what Patel advised? Do you know what wd have happened? Britain followed by USA wd have immediately entered the scene, taken the issue to the UN (controlled by them) and send their own troops into Kashmir (in the guise of peacekeeping) and internationalise Kashmir in a cold war power play ... Nehru was very shrewd not to let that happen and took the initiative himself and integrated the state with in the Indian Uniion ... after all, after creating it UK/USA nourished Pakistan and provided it with all possible state of the art military h/w and logistic support against India ... Pakistan for 50 years remained their staunchest ally in ME/Asia until 9/11 dawned on them ...

>>> Inder Gujral ended Counter-Intelligence-Team-X and Counter-Intelligence-Team-J activities of RAW in Pakistan on "moral grounds." Now we have few intelligence assets in Pakistan.

unsubstantiated hearsay

>>> Vajpayee took a cycle rickshaw to Lahore to kiss Pakistani ass - in return, we got Kargil. Even after Kargil, Vajpayee refused to allow the Indian army to cross into Pakistani territory ("moral grounds" again).

Not moral grounds, but genuine offer of friendship when that was betrayed Vajpayee was equally determined to teach them a lesson. India cd have never crossed the LoC (not even the air sapce determined by it) as that wd have meant a full scale war ...

>>> Most of our PMs have been from the cow-belt, and the average Hindiwalla feels closer culturally to Pakistanis than he does to "Madrasis" or Assamese.

typical southern mindset

I have been away from India for a long time now .... but when ever I am there I find Indian people mostly wish well for Pakistan. Those of Punjabi descent and their octogenarians who are still alive would probably never give up the nostalgia they carry for Lahore, Rawalpindi, Peshawar or Karachi. Civilisationally, culturally, even ethnically, Pakistanis, though they would not openly admit, are closer to Indians than what they consider as their brethren in Arabia or Iran, but, it is natural for them to feel this affinity which they can not possibly nourish for but-parast (iconoclastic) idolatrous cow worshipping Hindus

I have never been to Pakistan and even socialising with educated professional Muslims (from India too) settled in UK. I always felt that Dharmic religions to them are first of all an anathema. And that, they can not fathom that the lack of openmindedness, receptivity and intellect of Hindus among them, has been the main impediment to their development almost on all fronts; materially, intellectually or spiritually. This sums up the predicament that this All Muslim Wonderland, Pakistani nation created in the name of Allah finds itself in ... right now ... 

Coming back to Siachan, Delhi should tell Kayanl "on your bike" .. if you can not stand the heat (it is actually a frozen one) then get out of our territory ...

 'Fedup Indian' - I cannot agree more with you. Having grown up in Chennai, I see nothing in common with the Pakistanis.Manmohan has morphed into a spineless, do nothing moron in the last few years. I only hope he does not do any harm to our armed forces with some stupid diplomatic initiative with Pakistan.

 Here is an Aesop's fable that might be a propos:

The Fox Who Had Lost His Tail

A FOX caught in a trap escaped, but in so doing lost his tail. Thereafter, feeling his life a burden from the shame and ridicule to which he was exposed, he schemed to convince all the other Foxes that being tailless was much more attractive, thus making up for his own deprivation. He assembled a good many Foxes and publicly advised them to cut off their tails, saying that they would not only look much better without them, but that they would get rid of the weight of the brush, which was a very great inconvenience. One of them interrupting him said, “If you had not yourself lost your tail, my friend, you would not thus counsel us.”

Translated by George Fyler Townsend. Aesop's Fables (p. 28). Amazon Digital Services, Inc..

@ASHOK LAL - "It is ungenerous to suggest that an Indian Prime Minister ...  would do something contrary to his nation's interests just to leave a small foot note in the history books."

- Don't underestimate congress/MMS. J.Nehru and Rajeev Gandhi have committed blunders on this count in Kashmir and Srilanka for which the nation is paying till date.

FEDUP INDIAN  FROM HYDARABAD, has put things excellently in proper perspective. if our media editors, politicians read it and understand it then  it will save lot of unnecessary waste of energy and time and money of Indians which is wasted in appeasing Pak. Remember the cow belt walas Indians have slavery ingrained in them because of 1000 years of outside rule.

"We must be the biggest morons to walk this earth. We are actually discussing how we can gift our territory, captured and held at great cost, to a backstabbing untrustworthy neighbor."

Well said Vikas!

India Today has made this its cover story. This is what Arun Purie says:

There is much more at stake. Siachen gives India a bird's-eye view of Pakistan's Northern Areas. It also gives India an advantage over China which has, courtesy Pakistan, occupied large tracts of land in the region. Siachen is strategically important for India in neutralising a combined Pakistan-China threat should it ever materialise from the north.

Then there is the matter of being able to trust Pakistan to maintain their part of the withdrawal bargain. Pakistan has not always respected the sanctity of agreements. In 1999, they wilfully crossed the Line of Control into Kargil and Drass.

Prime Minister Manmohan Singh wants to show a concrete policy achievement before he leaves office. A dramatic agreement with Pakistan on Siachen might help his personal cause. For the country, it may however amount to surrender for very little gain. The Prime Minister has to find bigger fish to fry if he wants to be remembered as a peacemaker.

Indians ususally get all misty eyed as soon as any pakistani says sweet nothings.Not any more. Kayani's climb down means nothing. It is not even a climb down.Just like a drunkard who fell into a ditch vows to stop drinking kayani is saying these things. But again like the dunkard picks up  a bottle the very next evening, kayani will not stop using terrorism against India. Siachen is not an isolated issue. It is part of the  complete security situation as exists between India and Pakistan. You can address it only by adressing the main dispute. Otherwise thanks but no thanks!

"..it is under the US political pressure that Delhi is wilting to reward Pakistan. MMS and the coterie wants to ingratiate themselves to the foreign powers" Pinaki Ray

I am sure there is some US pressure on India to reach out to Pakistan but we can't blame the West for why Mumble Singh, Vinod Mehta and co trip over themselves constantly to ingratiate themselves with Pakistanis. To see the pattern, recall the following events:

- When the Indian army routed the Pakistani invaders in Kashmir in 1948, Nehru ordered them to stop and ran off to the UN to file a complaint there instead of letting the army finish the job. Sardar Patel and others advised him against it but they were brushed aside.

- Inder Gujral ended Counter-Intelligence-Team-X and Counter-Intelligence-Team-J activities of RAW in Pakistan on "moral grounds." Now we have few intelligence assets in Pakistan.

- Vajpayee took a cycle rickshaw to Lahore to kiss Pakistani ass - in return, we got Kargil. Even after Kargil, Vajpayee refused to allow the Indian army to cross into Pakistani territory ("moral grounds" again), so the Indian army lost many good men when they had to recapture Kargil without crossing the border.

This list can go on and on but there is a pattern here.

1) Most Hindus suffer from a "peacock" complex - we have grandiose illusions about ourselves and we love to strut around and be magnanimous even to dangerous thugs who want to destroy us. It make us feel exalted even though the rest of the world snickers at our pretensions and our enemies take advantage of our stupidity.

2) Most of our PMs have been from the cow-belt, and the average Hindiwalla feels closer culturally to Pakistanis than he does to "Madrasis" or Assamese. So they are always ready to jump into bed with the first Pakistani who winks at them no matter how many times they get it in the rear from Pakistanis. Think of all this rubbish you read about "shared culture" between India and Pakistan - what does the average person from Andhra Pradesh, Tamil Nadu or Assam have in common with Pakistanis? But as long as these cow-belt fellows rule South Block, the situation will not change.

Why blame the West when we are the ones with the character flaws?

 "Like his predecessor A.B. Vajpayee, Manmohan Singh wants to leave behind something substantial in the way of normalising relations with Pakistan before he leaves office."

What Vajpayee left was a mess. And Manmohan Singh is going to leave a lot worse.

What is with this spate of articles and news room talk shows on this issue. It must be big if 'deshbhakt' Barkha ji is also weighing in on it.

We must be the biggest morons to walk this earth. We are actually discussing how we can gift our territory, captured and held at great cost, to a backstabbing untrustworthy neighbor. We want to convert our territory into a mountain reserve and allow joint administration of it. That we are even discussing these issues is unbeliveable lunacy.

As per a resolution of Indian parliament the entire state of J&K is Indian territory including parts illegaly held by 'friendly' neighbors like Pakistan and China. I am not 'occupying' any territory but merely sitting on what is mine. The very fact that I need to guard what is mine round the clock is because poor little Pakistan would jump right in if I would as much look the other way.

Demilitarization essentially depends on Pakistand packing its bags and getting away. For good.

When I live in my house I do not 'occupy' it. If someone comes and claims my house as his what should I do? As per some great thinkers of our time I should authenticate the actual ground line position, vacate my house and move back, preferably convert my house to a common play area for kids under joint supervision. Siachen is just another room in my house called India.

It is widely claimed and accpeted that if we vacate Saltoro ridge Pakistan can easily capture the glacier. Then it will be impossible to dislodge them. Can the peaceniks tell me what if they then gift the glacier to China like some other parts of PoK. How will you then implement agreements or recapture Siachen?

Kayani wants to convert a hopeless situation into a stunning victory by showing that he has changed colors and getting the Indian government to withdraw. Otherwise since when has a Pakistani COAS cared for his soldiers. 139 dead - big deal. Many more were sent to their deaths in Kargil and even bodies were not claimed.

In any case why is it that India has to give concessions to Pakistan to build trust everytime. What has Pakistan ever done to build trust. Tell me one concession they have given to build trust with India. They have lost 139 - we lost 166 in Mumbai 26/11 alone. Lets start with that. How many heads have we claimed? We captured one pig and are feeding him biryani instead of slaughtering him.

MMS is not a bright spark but the Congress party is not suicidal by any yardstick. I hope the party will stop this madness sooner. This is what happens when you put a fossil in 7 RCR. They are stuck in a time wrap of bhaichara, long lost brothers, jhappi pappi with Pakistan etc. Fossils should only be sent to Reliance Jamnagar.

 "Why should Pakistan be rewarded ... " - # 8 /D-65

A good point.

But I suppose the answer is simple, and can be given by any one with rudimentary knowledge of the history of the Indian nation. And that is the following.

For thosands of years the people of India has been subjugated by foreign invaders. The worst were those of Islamic faith. And hence the mentality of slavery is ingrained in the mindset of the Indian population at large. This was noted by the defence minister George Fernandez of BJP years when he stated that the nation has no shame.

In present days of international politics, Pakistan has worked out the limitations of the sole superpower USA.  The US cannot do without Pakistan in their game plan in Afghanistan. So Pakistan is able to twist their arms to extract concesiions for their  agenda in Kashmir.   And this forces the US policy makers to sqeeze the Indian establishment for some concessions to the Pakistanis. And it is under the US political pressure that Delhi is wilting to reward Pakistan. MMS and the coterie wants to ingratiate themselves to the foreign powers.

The question is how consistent will be the policy of Pakistan with a future and quite possibly a more hard line army chief of staff? What if a bearded mullah in army chief of staff uniform in future, is not as "moderate" as Kayani today is? Remember, that the mid-level generals who will form the crux of Pakistani military leadership during the next decade, all have a marked streak for Islamic extremism as they all entered the force during the Zia ul Haq years, and are known to be definitely radicalized.
 

Probing further, once an agreement is reached, what effective Indian measures are there to ensure that Pak will not do a "Kargil" type of surreptitious incursion to occupy Siachen? After all everyone agrees:
- That Siachen is the gateway to their most important strategic road link with China,
- The glacier is the mother load feeding river Indus, which is again Pakistan's lifeline.
And therefore Pakistan will do everything to quickly reach a position of advantage to them with regard to Siachen.
 

Meanwhile, India is at a strategic advantage currently by holding on to it for the same above reasons and also having the option of disconnecting Pakistan from China if ever such a need arises in future. Therefore this is an ace for India against both Pakistan as well as China. Yes it is prohibitively expensive in terms of human and material cost, but the strategic reasons sadly keep outweighing such difficult considerations.
 

ok, this is called propaganda!

Who wans his near frozen,ungloved hands?

The idea is simple. The moment Indian army vacats, Pakistan army occupies it. Now to take back would mean another Kargil.

AB vajpayee wanted withdrawl but army told him that if we needed Siachen again it would be difficult to take it. AB vajapayee kept quit.

Any move to vacate Siachen would be extremely foolish. Let Pakistan economy get ruined, we should not care because we are not resposible for it.

Why should Pakistan be rewarded after spending hundreds of lives and thousands of crores of rupees?Why are they hiding the 26/11 criminals from ISI, Pakistani Army? They take Indians to be fools -political leadership of UPA Government  falls in to this category not the Indian Armed Forces and Indian people!

We should make a deal - if Pakistan withdraws from PoK, we'll ask Siva not to bury them in avalanches. Other than that, the only thing we should give these murderous swine is the tip of our boot.

 The only thing useful here is the map that shows clearly that entire Siachen glacier under Indian control and Pakistan no where on the glacier. Rest of logic of Marianna Babar is an articultaion of the duplicitous propoganda that Pakistan has served for last 65 years.

It is ungenerous to suggest that an Indian Prime Minister - or his Pakistani counterpart, for that matter - would do something contrary to his nation's interests just to leave a small foot note in the history books.

How exactly is this a climb down. India occupies the glacier, Pakistan does not and cannot. Demiliterization serves Pakistan's interests. 

A mutual withdrawal in Siachen would lead to the withdrawal of personnel from a high-risk terrain, and would allow Kayani to regain lost ground and gain trust, especially within the military.

Since the PA is not at Siachen anyway, what does mutual withdrawal mean? It means IA should withdraw and the PA will reciprocate with bulls***.

“We must realise that cutting off the Indian nose to spite the Pakistan face or vice-versa is disfiguring all of South Asia.”Najmuddin A. Shaikh, Former Pakistan Foreign Secretary

More like squeezing the Pakistani boil on the Indian butt.

Without the help of Pakisthan,  US & Taliban established contact in Doha. At that point Pak realized that it has lost all its cards. Now They have started this peace offensive. Without giving any thing .. A transit route to Afganistan, Punishment to Sayeed , or abondoning the Difa e Pak...  It wants India to give up Siachen , Sir creek, liberal visa and of coursr Kashmir It  will  not be surprising  if Our " Lost brother brigade and dumb politicians surrenders what our soldiers are guarding by giving their blood. first let Pakisthan treat all its citizen equally , whether chistians, Hindus, Shias, Ahamidis and remove anti blasphemi law then we should think of talking with them.

Dear Sir, In my view India shoud never withdraw from Siachen. It has considerable strategic significance for India in view of the China - Pakistan link up. The Indian army should not allow bloody fool Manmohan Singh to take a step back in Siachen. Our human and material losses on Siachen are going down and are at a minumum presently. Siachen also provides our army with a wonderful training facility for elite and crack troops. Siachen is ours and will remain ours for all times to come

Dear Sir, In my view India shoud never withdraw from Siachen. It has considerable strategic significance for India in view of the China - Pakistan link up. The Indian army should not allow bloody fool Manmohan Singh to take a step back in Siachen. Our human and material losses on Siachen are going down and are at a minumum presently. Siachen also provides our army with a wonderful training facility for elite and crack troops. Siachen is ours and will remain ours for all times to come

Without the help of Pakisthan,  US & Taliban established contact in Doha. At that point Pak realized that it has lost all its cards. Now They have started this peace offensive. Without giving any thing .. A transit route to Afganistan, Punishment to Sayeed , or abondoning the Difa e Pak...  It wants India to give up Siachen , Sir creek, liberal visa and of coursr Kashmir It  will  not be surprising  if Our " Lost brother brigade and dumb politicians surrenders what our soldiers are guarding by giving their blood. first let Pakisthan treat all its citizen equally , whether chistians, Hindus, Shias, Ahamidis and remove anti blasphemi law then we should think of talking with them.

A mutual withdrawal in Siachen would lead to the withdrawal of personnel from a high-risk terrain, and would allow Kayani to regain lost ground and gain trust, especially within the military.

Since the PA is not at Siachen anyway, what does mutual withdrawal mean? It means IA should withdraw and the PA will reciprocate with bulls***.

“We must realise that cutting off the Indian nose to spite the Pakistan face or vice-versa is disfiguring all of South Asia.”Najmuddin A. Shaikh, Former Pakistan Foreign Secretary

More like squeezing the Pakistani boil on the Indian butt.

How exactly is this a climb down. India occupies the glacier, Pakistan does not and cannot. Demiliterization serves Pakistan's interests. 

It is ungenerous to suggest that an Indian Prime Minister - or his Pakistani counterpart, for that matter - would do something contrary to his nation's interests just to leave a small foot note in the history books.

 The only thing useful here is the map that shows clearly that entire Siachen glacier under Indian control and Pakistan no where on the glacier. Rest of logic of Marianna Babar is an articultaion of the duplicitous propoganda that Pakistan has served for last 65 years.

We should make a deal - if Pakistan withdraws from PoK, we'll ask Siva not to bury them in avalanches. Other than that, the only thing we should give these murderous swine is the tip of our boot.

Why should Pakistan be rewarded after spending hundreds of lives and thousands of crores of rupees?Why are they hiding the 26/11 criminals from ISI, Pakistani Army? They take Indians to be fools -political leadership of UPA Government  falls in to this category not the Indian Armed Forces and Indian people!

Who wans his near frozen,ungloved hands?

The idea is simple. The moment Indian army vacats, Pakistan army occupies it. Now to take back would mean another Kargil.

AB vajpayee wanted withdrawl but army told him that if we needed Siachen again it would be difficult to take it. AB vajapayee kept quit.

Any move to vacate Siachen would be extremely foolish. Let Pakistan economy get ruined, we should not care because we are not resposible for it.

ok, this is called propaganda!

The question is how consistent will be the policy of Pakistan with a future and quite possibly a more hard line army chief of staff? What if a bearded mullah in army chief of staff uniform in future, is not as "moderate" as Kayani today is? Remember, that the mid-level generals who will form the crux of Pakistani military leadership during the next decade, all have a marked streak for Islamic extremism as they all entered the force during the Zia ul Haq years, and are known to be definitely radicalized.
 

Probing further, once an agreement is reached, what effective Indian measures are there to ensure that Pak will not do a "Kargil" type of surreptitious incursion to occupy Siachen? After all everyone agrees:
- That Siachen is the gateway to their most important strategic road link with China,
- The glacier is the mother load feeding river Indus, which is again Pakistan's lifeline.
And therefore Pakistan will do everything to quickly reach a position of advantage to them with regard to Siachen.
 

Meanwhile, India is at a strategic advantage currently by holding on to it for the same above reasons and also having the option of disconnecting Pakistan from China if ever such a need arises in future. Therefore this is an ace for India against both Pakistan as well as China. Yes it is prohibitively expensive in terms of human and material cost, but the strategic reasons sadly keep outweighing such difficult considerations.
 

 "Why should Pakistan be rewarded ... " - # 8 /D-65

A good point.

But I suppose the answer is simple, and can be given by any one with rudimentary knowledge of the history of the Indian nation. And that is the following.

For thosands of years the people of India has been subjugated by foreign invaders. The worst were those of Islamic faith. And hence the mentality of slavery is ingrained in the mindset of the Indian population at large. This was noted by the defence minister George Fernandez of BJP years when he stated that the nation has no shame.

In present days of international politics, Pakistan has worked out the limitations of the sole superpower USA.  The US cannot do without Pakistan in their game plan in Afghanistan. So Pakistan is able to twist their arms to extract concesiions for their  agenda in Kashmir.   And this forces the US policy makers to sqeeze the Indian establishment for some concessions to the Pakistanis. And it is under the US political pressure that Delhi is wilting to reward Pakistan. MMS and the coterie wants to ingratiate themselves to the foreign powers.

What is with this spate of articles and news room talk shows on this issue. It must be big if 'deshbhakt' Barkha ji is also weighing in on it.

We must be the biggest morons to walk this earth. We are actually discussing how we can gift our territory, captured and held at great cost, to a backstabbing untrustworthy neighbor. We want to convert our territory into a mountain reserve and allow joint administration of it. That we are even discussing these issues is unbeliveable lunacy.

As per a resolution of Indian parliament the entire state of J&K is Indian territory including parts illegaly held by 'friendly' neighbors like Pakistan and China. I am not 'occupying' any territory but merely sitting on what is mine. The very fact that I need to guard what is mine round the clock is because poor little Pakistan would jump right in if I would as much look the other way.

Demilitarization essentially depends on Pakistand packing its bags and getting away. For good.

When I live in my house I do not 'occupy' it. If someone comes and claims my house as his what should I do? As per some great thinkers of our time I should authenticate the actual ground line position, vacate my house and move back, preferably convert my house to a common play area for kids under joint supervision. Siachen is just another room in my house called India.

It is widely claimed and accpeted that if we vacate Saltoro ridge Pakistan can easily capture the glacier. Then it will be impossible to dislodge them. Can the peaceniks tell me what if they then gift the glacier to China like some other parts of PoK. How will you then implement agreements or recapture Siachen?

Kayani wants to convert a hopeless situation into a stunning victory by showing that he has changed colors and getting the Indian government to withdraw. Otherwise since when has a Pakistani COAS cared for his soldiers. 139 dead - big deal. Many more were sent to their deaths in Kargil and even bodies were not claimed.

In any case why is it that India has to give concessions to Pakistan to build trust everytime. What has Pakistan ever done to build trust. Tell me one concession they have given to build trust with India. They have lost 139 - we lost 166 in Mumbai 26/11 alone. Lets start with that. How many heads have we claimed? We captured one pig and are feeding him biryani instead of slaughtering him.

MMS is not a bright spark but the Congress party is not suicidal by any yardstick. I hope the party will stop this madness sooner. This is what happens when you put a fossil in 7 RCR. They are stuck in a time wrap of bhaichara, long lost brothers, jhappi pappi with Pakistan etc. Fossils should only be sent to Reliance Jamnagar.

 "Like his predecessor A.B. Vajpayee, Manmohan Singh wants to leave behind something substantial in the way of normalising relations with Pakistan before he leaves office."

What Vajpayee left was a mess. And Manmohan Singh is going to leave a lot worse.

"..it is under the US political pressure that Delhi is wilting to reward Pakistan. MMS and the coterie wants to ingratiate themselves to the foreign powers" Pinaki Ray

I am sure there is some US pressure on India to reach out to Pakistan but we can't blame the West for why Mumble Singh, Vinod Mehta and co trip over themselves constantly to ingratiate themselves with Pakistanis. To see the pattern, recall the following events:

- When the Indian army routed the Pakistani invaders in Kashmir in 1948, Nehru ordered them to stop and ran off to the UN to file a complaint there instead of letting the army finish the job. Sardar Patel and others advised him against it but they were brushed aside.

- Inder Gujral ended Counter-Intelligence-Team-X and Counter-Intelligence-Team-J activities of RAW in Pakistan on "moral grounds." Now we have few intelligence assets in Pakistan.

- Vajpayee took a cycle rickshaw to Lahore to kiss Pakistani ass - in return, we got Kargil. Even after Kargil, Vajpayee refused to allow the Indian army to cross into Pakistani territory ("moral grounds" again), so the Indian army lost many good men when they had to recapture Kargil without crossing the border.

This list can go on and on but there is a pattern here.

1) Most Hindus suffer from a "peacock" complex - we have grandiose illusions about ourselves and we love to strut around and be magnanimous even to dangerous thugs who want to destroy us. It make us feel exalted even though the rest of the world snickers at our pretensions and our enemies take advantage of our stupidity.

2) Most of our PMs have been from the cow-belt, and the average Hindiwalla feels closer culturally to Pakistanis than he does to "Madrasis" or Assamese. So they are always ready to jump into bed with the first Pakistani who winks at them no matter how many times they get it in the rear from Pakistanis. Think of all this rubbish you read about "shared culture" between India and Pakistan - what does the average person from Andhra Pradesh, Tamil Nadu or Assam have in common with Pakistanis? But as long as these cow-belt fellows rule South Block, the situation will not change.

Why blame the West when we are the ones with the character flaws?

Indians ususally get all misty eyed as soon as any pakistani says sweet nothings.Not any more. Kayani's climb down means nothing. It is not even a climb down.Just like a drunkard who fell into a ditch vows to stop drinking kayani is saying these things. But again like the dunkard picks up  a bottle the very next evening, kayani will not stop using terrorism against India. Siachen is not an isolated issue. It is part of the  complete security situation as exists between India and Pakistan. You can address it only by adressing the main dispute. Otherwise thanks but no thanks!

"We must be the biggest morons to walk this earth. We are actually discussing how we can gift our territory, captured and held at great cost, to a backstabbing untrustworthy neighbor."

Well said Vikas!

India Today has made this its cover story. This is what Arun Purie says:

There is much more at stake. Siachen gives India a bird's-eye view of Pakistan's Northern Areas. It also gives India an advantage over China which has, courtesy Pakistan, occupied large tracts of land in the region. Siachen is strategically important for India in neutralising a combined Pakistan-China threat should it ever materialise from the north.

Then there is the matter of being able to trust Pakistan to maintain their part of the withdrawal bargain. Pakistan has not always respected the sanctity of agreements. In 1999, they wilfully crossed the Line of Control into Kargil and Drass.

Prime Minister Manmohan Singh wants to show a concrete policy achievement before he leaves office. A dramatic agreement with Pakistan on Siachen might help his personal cause. For the country, it may however amount to surrender for very little gain. The Prime Minister has to find bigger fish to fry if he wants to be remembered as a peacemaker.

FEDUP INDIAN  FROM HYDARABAD, has put things excellently in proper perspective. if our media editors, politicians read it and understand it then  it will save lot of unnecessary waste of energy and time and money of Indians which is wasted in appeasing Pak. Remember the cow belt walas Indians have slavery ingrained in them because of 1000 years of outside rule.

@ASHOK LAL - "It is ungenerous to suggest that an Indian Prime Minister ...  would do something contrary to his nation's interests just to leave a small foot note in the history books."

- Don't underestimate congress/MMS. J.Nehru and Rajeev Gandhi have committed blunders on this count in Kashmir and Srilanka for which the nation is paying till date.

 Here is an Aesop's fable that might be a propos:

The Fox Who Had Lost His Tail

A FOX caught in a trap escaped, but in so doing lost his tail. Thereafter, feeling his life a burden from the shame and ridicule to which he was exposed, he schemed to convince all the other Foxes that being tailless was much more attractive, thus making up for his own deprivation. He assembled a good many Foxes and publicly advised them to cut off their tails, saying that they would not only look much better without them, but that they would get rid of the weight of the brush, which was a very great inconvenience. One of them interrupting him said, “If you had not yourself lost your tail, my friend, you would not thus counsel us.”

Translated by George Fyler Townsend. Aesop's Fables (p. 28). Amazon Digital Services, Inc..

 'Fedup Indian' - I cannot agree more with you. Having grown up in Chennai, I see nothing in common with the Pakistanis.Manmohan has morphed into a spineless, do nothing moron in the last few years. I only hope he does not do any harm to our armed forces with some stupid diplomatic initiative with Pakistan.

I have been away from India for a long time now .... but when ever I am there I find Indian people mostly wish well for Pakistan. Those of Punjabi descent and their octogenarians who are still alive would probably never give up the nostalgia they carry for Lahore, Rawalpindi, Peshawar or Karachi. Civilisationally, culturally, even ethnically, Pakistanis, though they would not openly admit, are closer to Indians than what they consider as their brethren in Arabia or Iran, but, it is natural for them to feel this affinity which they can not possibly nourish for but-parast (iconoclastic) idolatrous cow worshipping Hindus

I have never been to Pakistan and even socialising with educated professional Muslims (from India too) settled in UK. I always felt that Dharmic religions to them are first of all an anathema. And that, they can not fathom that the lack of openmindedness, receptivity and intellect of Hindus among them, has been the main impediment to their development almost on all fronts; materially, intellectually or spiritually. This sums up the predicament that this All Muslim Wonderland, Pakistani nation created in the name of Allah finds itself in ... right now ... 

Coming back to Siachan, Delhi should tell Kayanl "on your bike" .. if you can not stand the heat (it is actually a frozen one) then get out of our territory ...

FEDUP

>>> When the Indian army routed the Pakistani invaders in Kashmir in 1948, Nehru ordered them to stop and ran off to the UN to file a complaint there instead of letting the army finish the job. Sardar Patel and others advised him against it but they were brushed aside.

And perhaps you know more than Nehru on why he stopped Gen. Kariappa "finish the job"... how do you know what Patel advised? Do you know what wd have happened? Britain followed by USA wd have immediately entered the scene, taken the issue to the UN (controlled by them) and send their own troops into Kashmir (in the guise of peacekeeping) and internationalise Kashmir in a cold war power play ... Nehru was very shrewd not to let that happen and took the initiative himself and integrated the state with in the Indian Uniion ... after all, after creating it UK/USA nourished Pakistan and provided it with all possible state of the art military h/w and logistic support against India ... Pakistan for 50 years remained their staunchest ally in ME/Asia until 9/11 dawned on them ...

>>> Inder Gujral ended Counter-Intelligence-Team-X and Counter-Intelligence-Team-J activities of RAW in Pakistan on "moral grounds." Now we have few intelligence assets in Pakistan.

unsubstantiated hearsay

>>> Vajpayee took a cycle rickshaw to Lahore to kiss Pakistani ass - in return, we got Kargil. Even after Kargil, Vajpayee refused to allow the Indian army to cross into Pakistani territory ("moral grounds" again).

Not moral grounds, but genuine offer of friendship when that was betrayed Vajpayee was equally determined to teach them a lesson. India cd have never crossed the LoC (not even the air sapce determined by it) as that wd have meant a full scale war ...

>>> Most of our PMs have been from the cow-belt, and the average Hindiwalla feels closer culturally to Pakistanis than he does to "Madrasis" or Assamese.

typical southern mindset

@contrarian

And perhaps you know more than Nehru on why he stopped Gen. Kariappa "finish the job"... how do you know what Patel advised? Do you know what wd have happened? Britain followed by USA wd have immediately entered the scene, taken the issue to the UN (controlled by them) and send their own troops into Kashmir (in the guise of peacekeeping) and internationalise Kashmir in a cold war power play .

I doubt that. It was up for taking. 

The west would not have intervened becasue the cold war had not reached this area (remember this was 1948).  Pakistan didn't really joing CEATO (or CENTO, or whatever) till  a few years later.

Its a wonder how India survived Nehru

@fedup

 Most of our PMs have been from the cow-belt, and the average Hindiwalla feels closer culturally to Pakistanis than he does to "Madrasis" or Assamese. So they are always ready to jump into bed with the first Pakistani who winks at them no matter how many times they get it in the rear from Pakistanis

not surrpising , the "Pakistan Project" had its origins in UP cities  like Lucknow. The Pakistani elite today was  the Persian feudal elite of the Awadh. Ironically Pashtuns and Balochis have nothing in common with them as well

 Whats left behind is the so called Ganga Jamuna culture that Vajpayee and Vinod Mehat are so fond of

Contrarian, All the assertions in my post can be checked by doing a few minutes of searching on the Internet. To help you with your education, I'm posting a few links.

"perhaps you know more than Nehru on why he stopped Gen. Kariappa "finish the job"... how do you know what Patel advised?"

See for example http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vallabhbhai_Patel
"..Patel strongly advised Nehru against going for arbitration to the United Nations." 

In fact, Patil was the one who saved Hyderabad - when Nehru was sunning his buns in Europe, Patil took advantage of it and started Operation Polo which was wrapped up in 4 days. By the time a furious Nehru flew back to India, it was all over and there was nothing that that moron could do. Were it not for Patil, we would have had another cancer in the heart of our country (and in my hometown).

"Inder Gujral ended Counter-Intelligence-Team-X and Counter-Intelligence-Team-J activities of RAW in Pakistan on "moral grounds." "  Hearsay.

See http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/Indias%20Al%20Qaeda/3/22426.html

"...Experts like Ajai Sahni of the Centre for Conflict Studies call for secret action against the LeT camps and leadership inside Pakistan. “Short of covert capabilities and targeted covert options, nothing else will work against them,” says Sahni. A capability that I.K. Gujral dismantled as prime minister over a decade ago will take over a year to rebuild."

"India cd have never crossed the LoC (not even the air sapce determined by it) as that wd have meant a full scale war"

This is the dhimmi mindset that is the problem in India. Pakistan can violate the LoC (Kargil and Dhras), Pakistan can send terrorists into cities like Mumbai and Delhi to murder hundreds of innocent Indians in cold blood (see Mumbai terrorist attacks, attack on Parliament), etc. but that does not lead to "full scale war," whatever that is. But we cannot defend ourselves against this aggression even by crossing into Pakistani airspace because that is going to lead to "full scale war?" Until we change this dhimmi mindset and go after these vermin, Pakistan will keep attacking us - with people like you running the show, what do they have to lose?