5 Islamic Terrorists have entered Jamnagar Gujarat the Refinery City .High alert to save the Refineries is on .
Bhatinda Refinery is also under threat and under Security blanket.-TV News ( just heard ).
And we have been lectured by Secu frauds and Secu bogus writers that ;;;
Kayani is a man of peace.Hafiz Saeed has no power.Let us go to Islamabad on return Sadbhavna visit.Make Pakistan a business partner so that it does not foment Terror .Let us hand over Siachin to Pakistan .

If we have such well wishers who needs Lashkars,Kayanies, LeT etc .
Over to Mombatiwalas-Candlewalas and peace-nicks who have done more damage to us than the Islamic Terrorists sent by Pakistan.

Thanks to greatest back stabbers of India -Thelaka and VP Singh we are unable to purchase the Armaments.And thanks to Thelka Bhagats who routinely post Links from Thelka.

Maharashtra is on high Red alert .Gujarat has beefed up the Security of its Refineries and vital installations as LeT's 26/11 type attacks are feared by the Security Agencies-TV news

LeT is the Terror Arm of the Pak Army-ISI headed by General Kayani .

Manmohan is still in India not gone yet on visit to Pakistan .
Pakistan Army sent the message crystal clear either vacate Siacain or be ready for another 26/11 .

Our Candlewalas a battery of them here is lurking in various shades will go on spinning oh no now General Kayani has become a good boy .Sayeed was bad but reformed now.But forgetting all the time that LeT Head Saeed is controlled by Pak Army and ISI its Terror Arm.
Interestingly General Kayani has succeeded in forcing USA to withdraw the bounty of 50 Million Dollars for Sayeed's Head.

Now the PROs will come with bogus explanations.spins and bhanebazzi -no no it is not so . Think of future Dostana etc etc .It is all Sanghi-Modi propaganda etc. Don't fall for it.Even if you are hit by bullet does not matter .Count the gains of Dostana and bhaichara .Think of future benefits .

'Kon Jeeta hein terri Zulf ko Ser honey tak ' Ghalib

Alekshyendra,

>> Anyone with an iota of common sense would understand what the implication of Chundrigar's statement was.

The ill-bred moron who thinks it is smart to call me Anwaar miya, does not seem to understand English. Let me explain to you in simple English what Chundrigar meant. Chundrigar told the MLAs that the British had no right to hand over the Muslims to a subject people over whom they had ruled 500 years. This was in 1946 when the agreement over con-federation had broken down and the British proceeded to let the Congress form a government by themselves even  when the Muslim League was boycotting it. Chundrigar was telling the British not  to try to reach a final settlement without the participation of the MuslimLleague. There is no implication in what he said that suggests that since Muslims ruled India before the British came in, India should be handed over to them (Muslims) when the British left. Your claiming to see such an implication is a malicious lie.

>> why don't you prove that Muslims were open to being ruled by Hindus and not the other way round?

Muslims, who then were 30% of the population of British India, were fighting for their security and wellbeing after the British left, just as Canadian French or the Lebanese Christians did and still do vigilantly and aggressively throughout their histories. For you to reduce this to "being ruled by Hindus" is sheer charlatanry.

Since I do not expect you to understand any of this, I shall not reply to your mindless babble any more.

BTW, since many Muslims address each other and even others with the prefix mian, they must all be ill-bred morons, as per Anwaar mian's "culture".

Anwaar mian,

[[You said, "My post was in response to your argument that Muslims didn't ask to be made rulers of India again." Your response was a lie. Chundrigar did not say that Muslims should be rulers of India again. Read it again, carefully and slowly. Are you retarded?]]

There you go again, showing the full glory of the mean streets in which you were bred.

If Muslims didn't want to be ruled by Hindus in an independent India, what did that mean? Surely they weren't looking to be ruled by Christians or Sikhs? Anyone with an iota of common sense would understand what the implication of Chundrigar's statement was, but when someone's up against an Islamist apologist like you, they have to realize it is no easy task for someone who's head is so firmly lodged in a gutter, you can't make him see light no matter how much effort you put in. Idiot!!

BTW, why don't you prove that Muslims were open to being ruled by Hindus and not the other way round? Why are you tucking your tail in between your legs and running away?

Alekshyendra,

It is so unpleasant for me to interact with a gutter level moron like you who insists on calling me Anwar miya, but since you want to persist with your lie, I shall give this final reply.

You said, "My post was in response to your argument that Muslims didn't ask to be made rulers of India again." Your response was a lie. Chundrigar did not say that Muslims should be rulers of India again. Read it again, carefully and slowly. Are you retarded?

My last post in this thread.

Government must tread with utmost caution.

Thinking Saffron Parivar would give up its bread and better so easily is laughable. Its very reason for existence. What would happen to "Mian Musharraf" brand of philosophy ?

Anwaar mian,

My post was in response to your argument that Muslims didn't ask to be made rulers of India again. There is enough evidence that Muslim leaders were in no mood to be ruled by Hindus, but they were okay being made rulers again.

BTW, what difference does it make whether it was Chundrigar or Jinnah? Weren't both leaders of the Muslim community?

I can post Jinnah's speeches in which he was okay with Congress handing over power to Muslims and boasted how only Muslim rule could ensure justice to minorities. If you want I can post reams and reams of material supporting the fact. Do you have anything to counter it? From your posts, it appears the only things you have are lies, abuse and obfuscation, typical of the morons we find across the world.

You may not like discussing with people who bring up uncomfortable facts, but I'm perfectly okay with talking even to ill-bred morons like you. Who knows, wisdom and honesty may suddenly dawn upon you.

Ghai,

>> Evidence nahin hein ji.

Why should you worry about things like 'evidence' when you don't ever worry wbout what is being discussed before jumping in with your inane remarks?

>>>> Did Nagaraj say "his sole intention was to destroy ALL hindu temples" ?

You are right. Nagaraj did not say that. Those were my words.

>>>Is it your argument that- "Since Tipu has not TOTALLY destroyed ALL hindu temples he is secular" ?

No , I am merely trying to point out that not that not everything is black and white.

If Tippu was like evil like  Aurangazeb, I would have expected him to at least to destroy the very temple that was in the capital city, that gave its name. Any way that is my personal line of thought. 

There is no evidence of that. " Faruki

Evidence nahin hein ji .Vasey bhi agar hoga to hamm toh kabhi maney ge nahin ji because that 26/11 was the Sajjish of RSS not the LeT -ISI and Karkare was killed too by Hindus  though I don't agree (uttered on mutest mode) but majority of the Muslims believe so ji ( on highest pitch notes ).

Please do not be lulled by this ingeniously created brouha.Pakistan must surrender the

interpol searched terrorists first. Did anybody look into what has happened to minorities in Pakistan? Time is not far when our sophist media will be exposed of their hidden desires.

Pakistan is a muslim nation. No muslim nation in history has lived peacefully with others, whether of semite variety or else.What has been their contribution to human upliftment in technology or science or morality?Given the choice 99% of muslims will prefer US to Saudi Arabia or anyother country in the middle east.

@Suresh Kamat "if his sole iintention was to destroy all hindu temples, why will he not destroy the very temple that gave his capital, it name?"

Did Nagaraj say "his sole intention was to destroy ALL hindu temples" ? That is your misrepresentation. (Similar misrepresentation of facts were manifest on TV last night where Ramdev was accused of telling "ALL MPS are criminals,corrupt, murderers" - A familiar tactic from sickular crowd).

Is it your argument that- "Since Tipu has not TOTALLY destroyed ALL hindu temples he is secular" ?

>> There is derogatory stuff on the internet about Lala Lajpat Rai, Madan Mohan Malaviya

Any jehadi with a keyboard and Internet connection can post such stuff. The question was what have "they" said, that compares to the vulgar comments of Syed, not to mention his two nation theory.

>> All three were great leaders of their time and should not be judged by current standards

So was Churchill. Don't you criticize him?

>>>>In South India,Tipu Sultan is the hero for Muslims,inspite of his bigotted actions in demolishing thousands of temples in Malabar and forcibly converting Hindus there.On the other hand

Nagarajavare, can you please tell me why the ranganathasawamy temple built in 9th century by the Ganga dyansty was not demolished by Tippu Sultan, even though Sri Rangapatna became the defacto Capital under Hyder Ali and Tipu Sultan?  if his sole iintention was to destroy all hindu temples, why will he not destroy the very temple that gave his capital, it name?

There is derogatory stuff on the internet about Lala Lajpat Rai, Madan Mohan Malaviya and Sir Syed, but I would not post it here. All three were great leaders of their time and should not be judged by current standards.

>> Sir Syed, just like Lala Lajpath Rai and Pundit Madanmohan Malaviya, believed that India was in fact two nations

The jehadi stuck pig can't help himself and has to show his loyalty to scoundrels like Syed by equating likes of Lala Lajpat Rai and Pandit Madanmohan Malaviya with him.

Syed, while commenting on Hindi-Urdu controversy had said

Urdu was the language of gentry and Hindi that of the vulgar

Did either Lala Rai or Pandit Malaviya say anything so obscene to be brought in discussion with the original proponent of the two nation theory?

Maha,

>> Cursory look at their textbooks should give idea. WHo else would name a missile after invader ?

True, but irrelevant.

Ganesan,

>> "The point was made by Sir Syed."....."Jinnah was just one of the many politicians who saw muslims are the real rulers of India."

This is bullshit. Neither of them ever said "since Muslims ruled India before the British came in, India should be handed over to them (Muslims) when the British left." Sir Syed, just like Lala Lajpath Rai and Pundit Madanmohan Malaviya, believed that India was in fact two nations. Jinnah, as an advocate, tried to protect Muslim interests, either in a confederation or through partition. We may disagree with them, but let us not tell lies about them.

Bowenpalle,

>> Powerful people in Pakistan want a disintegration of India.

There is no evidence of that. I have heard crackpots like Saeed and fanatic mullahs say such things, but no one in recognised political or governmental leadership has expressed such notions. You are right that Pakistanis for long saw India as an existential threat, but that fear has receded since they started stockpiling nuclear weapons.

Alakshyendra,

>> "apologies, I had said it was Jinnah" ...... "Chundrigar told the MLAs that the British had no right to hand over the Muslims to a subject people over whom they had ruled 500 years."

I hate to converse with an ill-bred idiot who insists on calling me Anwaar miya, but since you want to persist with your lies, your quotes above themselves show that you are a liar. First you had attributed to Jinnah something he had never said, and now you want us to believe that Chundrigar saying "the British had no right to hand over the Muslims to a subject people over whom they had ruled 500 years," is the same as "since Muslims ruled India before the British came in, India should be handed over to them (Muslims) when the British left"! Where does Chundrigar say that India should be  handed over to Muslims? The phrase, "a subject people over whom they had ruled 500 years," is definitely rude and ill-advised, but he is not at all saying what you had alleged. Rude and ill-advised remarks were made by people on both sides in those days, but don't attribute to them things they did not say.

"This is bullshit history generated by RSS historians and quoted by ill-bred morons who insist on calling me Anwarar mian."

The point was made by Sir Syed"

We dont need to go back that far. Cursory look at their textbooks should give idea.  WHo else would name a missile after invader ? 

It is TRUE that MUSLIMS made traders- East India Company- rulers for the first time when MIR JAFFAR sided with British to defeat SIRAJUDDHIN to hand over Bengal to BRITISH in 1756. The rest of India was ruled by non-Muslims - the AHOMS, MARATHAS, RAJPUTS & SIKH. They together controled  Attock to Assam & Kashmir to Madurai (in TN) for more than 125 years from 1720 to 1845- a period seldom discussed or thaught in school. (The MUGHAL KING was made a puppet by 1720- within 13 years of the death of AURANGI). All the MUSLIM RULERS including NAWAB of AUDH invited the Afghan King - Ahamd Shah Abdali and joined him to defeat the Marathas in 1761- Third battle of Panipat. Had the Muslims thus not weakened MARATHAS, probably the BRITISH could  have been restricted to Bengal. 

A perception has been created that the British tookover India from Mughals ignoring the 125 years of Indian History. The Mughals ruled PARTS of India uniterrupted for only 161 years from Akbar (1556)to AURANGI (1707). ASSAM, KERALA etc  were never captured by Mughals.  

 "This is bullshit history generated by RSS historians and quoted by ill-bred morons who insist on calling me Anwarar mian."

The point was made by Sir Syed. And it was a point repeated by many muslim politicians and Maulanas during the following decades. And Jinnah was just one of the many politicians who saw muslims are the real rulers of India and having lost their rule because of the British.

Anwaar mian,

For your reading pleasure, excerpted from "The Great Divide: Muslim Separatism and Partition" by S.C. Bhatt (apologies, I had said it was Jinnah):

"Make no mistake, the sentiment that Muslims, in general, being heirs to Sultans and emperors of the past was voiced freely by the newly elected MLAs of the League. At a convention of the League legislators, this was voiced by Ismail I. Chundrigar, who as we have noted, became for a while the Prime Minister of Pakistan. He told the MLAs that the British had no right to hand over the Muslims to a subject people over whom they had ruled 500 years."

Now come up with something concrete to counter this and not stupid allegations about SC Bhatt being an RSS historian.

@@@their intention as we understand or perceive is that they want to disintegrate India.
That is not an accurate perception. It may be true for Saeed and some religious nuts who live in a delusional world,
@@Anwaar

Powerful people in Pakistan want a disintegration of India. This is not a fancy idea of some fanatics or lunatic few but that of all army bigwigs and political heads.

Yet another misconception is that it is natural to Pakistan to distrust India and also natural for them to have a desire for revenge for whatever happened to their "east Pakistan" in 1971. Indira Gandhi gave a death blow to Pakistan. I think Pakistan was the first beneficiary in her violent assassination.

Much before any 1971 situation Pakistan fomented trouble in the Mizoram and Nagaland due to their position or geographical advantage of East Pakistan. It gave Indira Gandhi such a head ache that Christian missionaries started helping ISI in Nagaland. Even she started feeling that she was losing control. So, associating trouble in Kashmir (after Rajiv Gandhi's defeat ) with that of creating Bangladesh is not historically correct.

Many times western observers claimed that India has not been able to digest the fact of creation of Pakistan out of India and that is the reason for their animosity. Some of them went further to claim very often that India want to "finish" Pakistan just because they cannot digest the existence of Pakistan at all.

The facts are off course very different. India never went to war with Pakistan even in 1971 !! Indira Gandhi waited until Pakistan attacked in the West. Until Paki Air Force started bombing Agarthala and J&K.

It is true that Jinnah enticed Maharaja of Kashmir with an autonomous region within Kashmir and Maharaja was in good terms with Jinnah. That was only one reason he delayed merger with Indian Union until he was attacked by Pakistan army mixed with barbarian tribal.

I know so many Pakistanis since I worked in foreign country and their general behaviour is that of terrible fear of India with a very poor knowledge or no knowledge of Hinduism. In fact they have very ridiculous opinions about Hinduism along with hatred. Another fact is that common people definitely want friendship with India and very clearly know that they cannot have different identity from Indians. Many Pakistani hotels generally put the name "Indian restaurant".
Until democracy, secularism thrives in Pakistan , a meaningful friendship cannot emerge.

[[This is bullshit history generated by RSS historians and quoted by ill-bred morons who insist on calling me Anwarar mian.]]

Anwaar mian, the kind of language you use in your posts shows your own upbringing, not mine. And did I say before that I use "mian" exclusively for ill-bred morons (since you only seem to understand the language you speak) like you?

Anyways, coming back to history, anything that does not meet your Islamic standards is labelled as RSS history. Why am I not surprised? Muslims after all, are suppposed to be milk pure and Hindus a regressive tribe that believes in doctoring history to sully the milk-pure reputation of Muslims. What an idiot!!

>> Jinnah did argue that since Muslims ruled India before the British came in....

This is bullshit history generated by RSS historians and quoted by ill-bred morons who insist on calling me Anwarar mian.

Anwaar mian

[[Why do you lie so much? Is exacerbating hatred against Muslims and Christians the sole purpose of your life?]]

This shows how ignorant you are of the partition movement. Jinnah did argue that since Muslims ruled India before the British came in, India should be handed over to them (Muslims) when the British left. A simple google search should do it for you. If you didn't know this before, you're as dumb as a bat. If you knew this and still argued the way you did, you're plain dishonest.

 It is nice to know that this was an opnion peace, and as it is said everyone under the sun has an opnion. if the writer of this article had even an iota of knowledge about history of conflicts around the world and their points of resolution, he might not have attempted to waste the paper upon which he printed this amtuerish piece. The only reason the Pakis are taking about working out stuff is cause the honey and milk line of 2 billion dollars in military aid has been cut from the USA, for now. But that might be a very short lived thing. So till that funding can be turned back on, they are buying for time.India spends about $200.00 millions dollars on its forces in Siachen, which is loose change for India but for Pakistan that is a lot of money. And as they see that we are out spending them in the defence sector the only thing they can do is make all this goody goody noices with no action to follow, cause they believe  some of the jelley brain's in India, who are on their take will make clack of a noice to divert India from it's goal of total domination over the Pakis and maybe taint our guns towards China. No wonder all of a sudden there is so much of noise about China in the Indian media but not much about Pakis. So Mr. Bushan  I think you fall in the category of journalist whom Justice Katju decribes as not being very well read or even bright or you are both well read and bright but can be bought for 30 peices of silver. Either way you need to go back to school or take up something else to do, Maybe apply for job at the Paki embassy.

 THere is no hope of peace with people who have learned braishwashed history against India and specially hindus. Few intellectuals from Dawn may give some orgasm to Candellwallahs, but it is not going to change the ground reality. 

"What appears to us to be their policy of duplicity, denial and deception may seem to them as being perfectly logical in view of their circumstances." Anwaar

Criminals usually have perfectly logical reasons for commiting crimes. A bank robber wants money, which is perfectly logical given his circumstances if he is poor. A mass murderer may be delusional, so in the circumstances of his delusional state, mass murder may seem perfectly logical. That does not lessen the gravity of their crimes.

Pakistan is a terrorist state that killed 3 million defenseless Hindus in 1971  -  R.J.Rummel, the scholar of genocide, classifies as a "megamurderer state" in the same class as the Khmer Rouge. We need to cut the head off of this snake, no pander to it.

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/20TH.HTM

The Proof of the pudding is in the eating. If Pakistani mindset has indeed changed , India will see it practically instantly.  There are several pointers that'll indicate such change. So Terrorist training camps in POK will wind down; infilitration will turn into a trickle; Hafiz Saeed will be muzzeled; Daud will be found ....... The list goes on and on. This will happen even before Pakistan rethinks their  hate filled divisive philosophy; on which they have based their "Land of the pure". General Durrani maybe saying these sweet things in all honesty but in a country where left hand does not know what the right  hand of  the establishment is doing as is evident in Osama case; he has a very hard sell in front of him. Especially when he can not site a single concrete step that supports this theory.  Granting MFN status to India fifteen years too late is not one of them.  As a signatory to WTO Pakistan had to do it.

The reason I feel nothing is going to happen is because Pakistan has more to fear from India's friendship than her animosity. As soon as they become friends the entire raison d'etre of a separate Pakistan will collapse. What will save their country then? Actually every section of  the Pakistani establishment knows this and that's why anti India lashkars and Difa E Pakistan kind of organisations have complete state patronage. It will not change anytime soon. It will go further underground and will be hidden better from us. Let us not get fooled into buying a lemon by the used car salesman visiting from across the border .

Even if the author's view and Mr. Durrani's statements are true, and it is not quite clear this is unambiguously the case, what actions would India undertake differently than it is already on course for?

India has always been for increase people to people contact, trade and in general better relations. It is Pakistan which blocks these measures offering Kashmir as the ostensible reason.

It is also known in the public domain that India has twice destroyed its covert action / dirty tricks capabilities in Pakistan - once under Morarji Desai (for which he got Nishan e Pakistan) and once under I K Gujral. Even if Indian intelligence agencies have now built this capability again and fund the Balochistan movement, which has been alleged but never really been proven through any information in the public domain anyway, India will in all likelihood stop such funding, if Pakistan stops its covert support for terrorism in India.

On Kashmir, recent Indian governments have supported negotiations and it is alleged both governments almost came to a deal in 2007.

All in all, Pakistan holds almost all the cards - it can improve or deteriorate (for other perceived benefits) relations with India at will. The advice given to Mr. Durrani by his Indian counterparts was pretty sound - "Show your intent in your actions and perhaps you will achieve what you want to achieve". Don't know what "believing" that Pakistan's intent has changed will accomplish. Perhaps a slightly increased effort level from Indian bureaucratic circles but how much is that really worth - speed doesn't matter if you don't know where you want to go...

DC,

>> In reality Pakistan has continued with a foreign policy of duplicity, denial and deception.

They see us the same way we see them. We should not put too much stock in such shibboleths. What appears to us to be their policy of duplicity, denial and deception may seem to them as being perfectly logical in view of their circumstances.

"The vast majority, I would think, desire normal relations. A fear of India was for many years a dominant emotion, but that fear is receding," -Anwaar

That is your own speculation. Since 1999 this script has been shown so many times. Oh there has been a genuine change of heart. Jito Dil...Diya jaalao...Samjhotaa express..blah ..blah..blah

In reality Pakistan has continued with a foreign policy of duplicity, denial and deception. Their overt process of normalizing the relation with India went along with the covert process of subversion. They fought with a section of Taliban and Al Qaeda while covertly supporting terrorist training camps and harboring safe passage to LET leadership and Bin Laden. It is therefore difficult to judge whether the recent peace initiative with India is genuine or another ploy to seek time out in proxy war against India until consolidating their strategic depth in the neighboring Afghanistan.

Even if your speculation is correct, a healthy dose of skepticism is fine for the reality check given Pakistan's long history of duplicity. Measured reciprocity and cautious optimism should be the way to go for India.

 
Why refuse to recognise a change in mindset for what it is?
BHARAT BHUSHAN

The author vastly overestimates his powers of persuasion. He should try mass hypnosis.

The vast majority, of Pakistanis have been fed a steady witches' brew diet of contempt and hatred against India. Just go and check even now, their school text books from grade 1. The books are so India centric and India hating, it belies any rational explanation.
 

Such hatred is very much kept alive on a daily basis by the fear of what happened to half of their nation in the east. And why India should be brought to its knees, so that it doesn't happen to them again. Fear is not receding, but instead anything but that, with the now drumbeat of relentless propaganda that Indians have set up shop in Afghanistan to do another "Bangladesh" in their Baluchistan.
 

If anything, the vast majority of Pakistanis have been brought up from day-1 to disassociate from everything connected with India and instead to look westward for the "morally and culturally superior lands from where God's religion was born and had spread". They are not interested in sight seeing in India, but rather the last caliphate land of Turkey, Iran and the rest of the Gulf. As for shopping, with a per-capita income of one of the lowest in the world, the nothing but broke Pakistanis will not make a diddly dent in India's trade or business returns, even if a few stragglers do end up sneaking into India far away from the ordained, and beaten track to these other Arab and Muslim lands to their west.

Bowenpalle,

>>  their intention as we understand or perceive is that they want to disintegrate India.

That is not an accurate perception. It may be true for Saeed and some religious nuts who live in a delusional world, but their percentage would be no bigger than that of some of our saffronites who would like to see Pakistan disintegrate. The vast majority, I would think, desire normal relations. A fear of India was for many years a dominant emotion, but that fear is receding, and replaced to some extent by a desire to tour India, for sight seeing, but above all for shopping!

Kashmir is crux of the entire problem between India and Pakistan, according to some analysts but even that is doubtful. It is because we see Pakistan sponsored terrorist attacks in India outside of Kashmir. It is also because their intention as we understand or perceive is that they want to disintegrate India. In other words, the psychology of the masses, lack of democratic institutions and total absence of a charismatic leader in Pakistan who can mold public opinion for a friendship with India are some of the reasons.

Plebiscite was not conducted in Kashmir as per UN resolutions because Pakistan in the last minute backed out of such an exercise. It was not India which tried to occupy Kashmir by military force but Pakistan. According to some historians, Pakistan had a chance to integrate Kashmir but lost such a chance by trying to forcefully take it. Jinnah cajoled even Maharaja of Kashmir with such promises as self-governing or autonomous Kashmir within Pakistan.

Jihadist, Afghan mercenaries and other countries that are funding these people do not want any political solution. ISI sponsored attacks on Pundits of the valley that led finally driving them out of Kashmir compounded the problem. Until Pundits return back to their homes and lands, until Srinagar is completely peaceful there shall be no real friendship with Pakistan, it is really impossible.
 

How, where and why will I ever believe that ISI will not do a Mumbai-attack once again? 

What is it about ISI and its lap dog LeT, that will convince me that they have become the cheerleaders for the Indian nation?

Give me a break.  This is a tactical lull in their strategic intention to cut India down to size and splinter it if possible, for all the wrongs and humiliations the Indian nation has piled on them (read "East Pakistan bungaya Bangladesh"). 

Their contempt and hatred against India and "an earning to associate with the Muslim cultures and lands to their west as far away from Bharath as possible" is a multi-generational affliction and cannot be washed over by new trade benefits and business development. Such white hot hatred will transcend any such sham, shallow attempts for so called peace, because none really exists in any of their hearts.

 " For the first time, the Pakistan army and the politicians are on the same page on improving ties with India."

However this is NOT the first time this line has been used. I remember the time Mush came to power. The candle light crowd was as usual ecstatic. " previously there was a perpetual conflict between the army and civilians. But now that the army has taken over the civilian control, peace is possible for the first time".

And we know how things worked out. 

The problem with articles like this is that it is based on a premise that is unwarranted. Somehow the premise is ingrained in everyone-that we need to engage with Pak to restore peace. I see no validity in the premise to begin with. There is no need to engage with Pak at the higher levels. And while establishing peace is a lofty goal, I see no reason why peace has to be established on Pak's terms. Till we have the upper and winning hand, India can afford to wait.

Team Jinnah advertized their two nation theory as a convenient pretext for the hidden agenda of usurping political power through partition or otherwise. Like any other power hungry politician Jinnah, a non-religious, westernized lawyer embraced the religious bigots and hatemongers as his tactic, but after achieving political power through communal riots and mass scale displacement of people he wanted to establish a secular non-theocratic western democracy. No wonder Pakistan has been living in existential dilemma since birth.

Given the weak foundational idea, Pakistan continues to suffer from an identity crisis. A  nationhood based on pure Islamic identities calls for the false assertion of closer ethnic and cultural associations with the Arabs. Also as follows from the two-nation theory, a distinctiveness of its nationhood from India's calls for a refusal to disown their own Indian heritage. A larger population of Muslims residing in India makes Pakistan's notion of equating India with Hindus alone that much inaccurate. Creation of Bangladesh proved Islamic identity cannot supercede ethnic identity. Ironically, today for Pakistanis to embrace India and Indian heritage is like disowning the two nation theory that was the basis of Pakistan's creation.

However, a section of the Pakistani elite in the media space indeed acknowledge their Indian roots and favor better relations with India. Still there is also a large section of Pakistani society -intellectuals, opinion makers as well as the semi literate people on streets who harbor the traditional Islam-centric, anti Indian, anti-Hindu , views.

For Indians to get carried away by one side of this debate is akin to not acknowledging the opposing view. We have seen that the bus-train diplomacy, people to people contact across the Wagah border and the cricket diplomacy do not necessarily prevent Kargil war and 26/11 attacks,  Cosmetic changes do not necessarily prove a permanent change of heart. The best option is to remain cautiously optimistic and take measured reciprocal  approach - let us not get overly carried away by the opinions of either Bharat Bhushan or  the so-called danda-maar brigade .

 make hay when the sun shines in diplomacy ,,,,,,the only caveat-- never do that when pakistan is involved !!!!!!!

"Kashmir should be discussed within a political paradigm rather than a security one"

The area of J&K under Pakistani occupation was captured through the use of armed force by Pakistan. If that be acceptable, then the occupation of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip by Israel through the use of armed force is equally acceptable.

Para 6(b) of the UN resolution speaking of plebiscite which Pakistan loves to reiterate unambiguously states "All persons (other than citizens of the State) who on or since 15 August 1947 have entered it for other than lawful purpose, shall be required to leave the State". Besides, each and every election in J&K is a plebiscite. Whether or not you support Omar Abdullah or Mehbooba Mufti they are, after all, democratically elected leaders. Is there a single native born Kashmiri in the euphemistically termed "Azad Kashmir" who is actually a popular leader and not a puppet?

Since 1947 we Indians have conclusively proven that the assumption that the Muslims of the sub-continent constitute a separate nation is flawed and was mainly postulated to protect the rights of a very few Punjabi Muslim landowners.

So what political paradigm remains? To suggest that the Line of Control be converted to a formal border is an insult to every jawan who has laid down his life in the inhospitable terrain of the high Himalayas. Maintaining a deployment in Siachen apparently costs Rs.3 crores a day - but how much is that actually? Maybe Rs.1000-2000 crore per annum? That is irrelevant - what is relevant is the high morale of our boys in olive green.

Every Indian dreams of a situation where sending armed terrorists to massacre innocent civilians would not constitute an integral facet of Pakistani foreign policy. Amongst those slaughtered in the November 2008 Mumbai attack were Indian Muslims as in most other such attacks. So the jehad theory has been well and truly exploded. We can only hope and pray for the dawn of sanity amongst those who matter in Pakistan.

Till then, keep the powder dry.

<<<<Muslim Pakistan and Indian's animosity are essential to the success of Hindutva and BJP>>>>>

So Mr Vajpayee went to Pakistan in a Bus and met Pak PM- Shareef to plan the KARGIL attack. General Kayani will be overthrown by a ZIA or MUSH and that will be the end of "Siachen peace propasal".

If General Kayani is serious about "Siachen peace propasal" all he has to do is to mark the present position held by Indian & Pak Army in Siachen on a map and  "authenticate it by affixing his signature on it". But KAYANI WILL NEVER DO IT as the propasal is just FACADE to fool India.

Nagaraj,

>> Muslims think that the British should have handed over entire of India to Muslims,because the last emperor was the Mughal ,Bahadur Shah.

Why do you lie so much? Is exacerbating hatred against Muslims and Christians the sole purpose of your life?

Hindus never wrote history,much less never read history and that is their bane.Muslims ,on the other hand are always linked to past history.They have all the love and respect for an outsider like Babar only because he was a Muslim.Muslims think that the British should have handed over entire of India to Muslims,because the last emperor was the Mughal ,Bahadur Shah,from whom the British took over.In South India,Tipu Sultan is the hero for Muslims,inspite of his bigotted actions in demolishing thousands of temples in Malabar and forcibly converting Hindus there.On the other hand ,Hindus instead of being thankful to the British for restoring the Hindu Wodeyar dynasty,foolishly think Tipu was a freedom fighter.Hindu stupidity continues,when they vote for anti-Hindu forces who proclaim themselves to be secular.Self destruction,is another name for Hindu soceity.

One should not take Pakistan words of peace seriously. We are not against any friendship but we should explore whether there is such a possibility. Otherwise it is dangerous to go ahead. After all France and England fought for 100 years or more and now living in friendship.

It is not because of any threat from Pakistan in the form of a war but because, at last the idiots in Pakistan realized that they can never win a war (a conventional) against India.
The problem is that of Pak society and their highly brainwashed youth. The problem is their population under the control of fatwas, jehadis and Taliban. Any serious open border means we shall be polluting our own society.

You only have to see the debate in their TV or just search YouTube for recordings. Many Pakistanis think that they are different from "Hindustani" and some (idiots) go further and say that Pakistanis had civilized the Hindus and brought "culture" to them.

Many so called Pakistani intellectuals believe that they have a specific culture of their own in eating, singing and living as compared to “Indians" and there has been nothing similar !!! !!.
I do not deny that in these YouTube videos , many also argued against such nonsense and emphasized that they are in no way and can never be different from Indians either in family system, eating ,drinking etc.,
 

After Dec 2012 money will start to talk - iow private business (on both sides of the border) will have an increasingly big stake in noramlisation and peace.

I think the political impact of this will be illuminating.

For the simple reason that Muslim Pakistan and Indian's animosity are essential to the success of Hindutva and BJP,the relationship will never improve.The RSS hawks are everywhere from Congress party to the top most intelligence apparatus for whom the triumph of Hindutva is sacro sanct and superseeds nation's concerns.

What PAKISTAN is doing is exactly what has been done many times previously- when WEAK & BATTERED (as Pakistan is today) extend hand of friendship. (it was done by Zulfikar Ali Bhutto after 1971 war too- and then from 1989 commenced pushing JEHADIS into Kashmir). Pakistan is waiting for that one opportunity to DEFEAT India and then decimate the DEFEATED India. Be reminded of PRITVIRAJ CHOUHAN  

>>>Ghori's army, fled leaving Muhammad Ghauri as a prisoner in Pritiviraj's hands. Muhammad Ghauri was brought in chains to Pithoragarh – Prithviraj's capital and he begged his victor for mercy and release. Prithviraj's ministers advised against pardoning the aggressor. But the chivalrous and valiant Prithviraj thought otherwise and respectfully released the vanquished Ghori <<<

REST IS HISTORY- when PRITVIRAJ was defeated he was DECIMATED by GHAURI.  THOSE WHO FORGET THE PAST (HISTORY) ARE CONDEMNED TO REPEAT IT.

>> "pakistan refuses prosecute 26/11" - Bharat

Even India is dilly-dallying on prosecuting the lone man captured. Instead, we have jokers trying to convince us how it was a 'RSS ka saazinsh'!! Out there in Mumbai, lawyers and judges are contemplating on serious issues like: Kasab's age as deduced from dental tests, Biryani requests, his requests for Urdu papers etc. 

Why blame Pakistan when we ourselves are incapable of handling our mess?

pakistan refuses prosecute 26/11, still keeps sending terrororists to India and indians keeps talking about the peace and gving up siachen..  So far there is no concrete measure towards from pak side and these journalists are talking peace. This MFN status (anyway india gave MFN status to pak 15 years back...) is a measure is driven by the desire to attract indian investments in  Pak.  What is in it for India?? Anyway india gave MFN status to pak 15 years back...

why are these journos harping on peace with pak as if it has given back POK to indiA.

If Pakistan is indeed serious, the best thing it can do is to slowly but surely liquidate its anti-India terror infrastructure. When illegal infingements in Valley start coming down, and we don't have 26/11 and Parliament attacks here in India, the conflict will automatically start getting de-escalated.

Till then, I profess caution. There is a saying in Hindi -  Doodh ka Jala Chhach bhi phoonk phoonk kar peeta hai - in English, the equivalent is Once Bitten, Twice Shy.

No dreamy eyed romantics please! Our relationship has been sour for the last 60 years. I will be very happy if it can get better, but I would judge the improvement in the relationship over the next 10 years, not by 2 or 3 actions, masquerading as "strategic shift".

{Sorry overlapping took in drafting -amended as below }

Bajapi went with his Dostana Bus to Lahore.Lot of bhappies ,jhappies ,tangri kabas,seek kabas were shared with Nawaz ( for name sake a Sharief ).

Mush ensured the return journey of the Dostan Bus ended at Kargil Heights .Our Parliament was attacked .Many brave Security men sacrificed their lives to save worthless politicians who tremble and even shit at thought of hanging the culprit Afzal Guru.

Poor Bajpai had to get replaced his knees after coming down from Heights of the Kargil immediately after Kargil Journey .

Many brave Security men sacrificed their lives to save worthless politicians who now piss at though of hanging the culprit Afzal Guru with ear splitting chants from the Pak supporters crowds 'kaya karein wakil galat tha Afzal ka .Insaaf nahin hua.Kabhi hota hi nahin yahaan  "

While Kargil was on TVs were blaring Mush and ISI Chief Maehmood teletalk 'Jannab Terror ki tooti (Tap ) hamre control mein hein . Jannab Jab chaein bund kar dey geinge ya khol deinge tooti. Jaise abhi khol di hamney u----- tooti'

There after Manmohan Singh went on mission to trace his roots in Pakistan and see his Zamindari of pre-partition days.

We again paid the price with hundereds of deads,thousands maimed , Billion Rs loss to our econmy on 26/11 .

Manmohan went to Sherm-el-Sheikh signed papers drafted by Pakis .Pledged eternal friendship to our killers .

Now again paigam e Dosti has come from across the Borders .

Candle-Mombatiwalas are on the streets in India chanting Dosti- Dosti -Dosti--with Paki Generals controlling the killer brigades reared to decimate India and World at large .

Zardari has invited Manohan Singh to Pakistan once again .

KHUDA KHEIR KAREIN !
 

Bajapi went with his Dostana Bus to Lahore.Lot of bhappies ,jhappies ,tangri kabas,seek kabas were shared with Nawaz ( for name sake a Sharief ).

Mush ensured the return journey of the Dostan Bus ended at Kargil Heights .Our Parliament was attacked .Many brave Security men sacrificed their lives to save worthless politicians who tremble and even shit at thought of hanging the culprit Afzal Guru.

Simultaneously we hear ear splitting chants from the Pak supporters' crowds in India chanting 'kaya karein wakil galat tha Afzal ka .Insaaf nahin hua Afzak keiy saath .Kabhi hota hi nahin yahan "

Poor Bajpai had to get replaced his knees after coming down from Heights of the Kargil immediately after Kargil Journey .

Meanwhile TVs were blaring Mush and ISI Chief Maehmood teletalk 'Jannab Terror ki tooti (Tap ) hamre control mein hein .Jab chaein bund kar dey geinye ya khol dein geBajapi went with his Dostana Bus to Lahore.Lot bhappies ,jhappies ,tnagri kabas,seek kabas were shared with Nawaz for name sake a Sharief .Mush ensured the return journey of the Dostan Bus ended at Kargil Heights .Our parliament was attacked .Many brave Security men sacrificed their lives to save worthless politicians who now piss at though of hanging the culprit Afzal Guru with ear splitting chants from the Pak supporters crowds 'kaya karein wakil galat tha Afzal ka .Insaaf nahin hua.Kabhi hota hinahin "

Poor Bajpai had to get replaced his knees after coming down from Heights of the Kargil .

While Kargil was on  TVs were blaring Mush and ISI Chief Maehmood teletalk 'Jannab Terror ki tooti (Tap ) hamre control mein hein . Jannab Jab chaein bund kar dey geinge ya khol deinge . Jaise abhi khol di hamney u-----'

There after Manmohan Singh went on mission to trace his roots in Pakistan and see his Zamindari of pre-partition days.

We again paid the price with hundereds of deads,thousands maimed , Billion Rs loss to our econmy on 26/11 .

Candle-Mombatiwalas are now on the streets chanting Dosti- Dosti -Dosti--with Paki Generals controlling the killer brigades reared to decimate India and World at large .The Killer Islamic terrorists who sneak in at their will without rhyme and reason.

Manmohan went to Sherm-el-Sheikh signed papers drafted by Pakis .Pledged eternal friendship to our killers .

Now again paigam e Dosti has come from across the Borders .

Candle-Mombatiwalas are on the streets in India chanting Dosti- Dosti -Dosti--with Paki Generals controlling the killer brigades reared to decimate India and World at large .

 Zardari has invited Manohan Singh to Pakistan once again .

KHUDA KHEIR KAREIN !

 The main contention between India and Pakistan from the day of independence is Kashmir. The small incremental steps might ease out the tension but there can't be ever lasting peace till Kashmir remains unresolved. The best part is that Kashmir CANNOT be resolved. It is the nerve center of both the countries. Right now, Pakistanis are facing existential threat and are ready to put Kashmir in abeyance. Once American forces are out of Af-Pak, the generals and the politicians will again start harping on Kashmir issue. 

Siachen, Sir Creek and militancy are all related to Kashmir. All the factors come into play when Kashmir issue is discussed and are used to score browny points. So whats bad in talking about peace. We have Aman ki Asha going on and lets keep chatting with Pakistanis. The bitter truth is that once there's no Kashmir issue between India and Pakistan, there will be no India and Pakistan left in the world and they will balkanize. 

>> A bloody feud between two next door neighbors with the same history and heritage cannot last for ever

Don't think Pakis believe that we share the same history or heritage.

All signs of rapprochement are welcome. A bloody feud between two next door neighbors with the same history and heritage cannot last for ever. Writing in Pak Tea House, Raza Raja says, "I am a Pakistani Indian……I am the heir to the same great Indus valley civilization and I have the same claim to India as those who belong to modern political India. It is this common great heritage, underpinned by the idea of India independent of political configurations, which unites me with those who live in the present political entity of India. It is our common heritage irrespective of our different political and for that matter even cultural differences( because India has many sub cultures which differ substantially from each other )."

Dawn columnist  Nadeem F. Paracha has written several articles denouncing the idea that Pakistanis have an Arab heritage and not an Indian one. He has received wide support in readers' comments.

For a moment I thought I was reading article from Pakisthani Newspaper.... Alas ! our Big time columnists had read Pakisthani Newspapers and watch their TV channels. Pakistan thought that they had trump card in Taliban, but after Doha talk between USA and Taliban, the card had to be devalued. china is pressing to act against Pakisthan based terrorists, Saudi is wary of Pakisthan's games and cannot go very close to Iran for Historical reasons. So all dressed up to but  nowhere to go .. so turn to India and these fools fall over each other to welcome Pakisthan. They gave MFN status 15 years after India gave. it has not yet operationalize. But look Indian have already liberalized Visa regime. They wanted Indian visas desperately... Why ? nobody has given any explaination. After wards we will spend money and manpoer in searching out Pakistanis and deporting because they have overstayed. 

But even before operationalizing of MFN status by Pakisthan our Intellectuals ( without Intelligence) are talking of Siachen, sir Creek.. No article was publised to prod Mamata Banergy to relent on Tista water .. for Bangaladesh which has taken great pains to be our friend .. but look here ..    Pakisthanis call us enemy and act accordingly and we are  falling over eachother to flatter them... How an entire nation is taken for ride by few assurances from Pak is really astonishing !  

This Journalists sufffer from the "Prithviraj Chouhan" syndrome.. It appears, if were in his hands, he would gift pakistan Siachen and Kashmir and single peace songs all the days. If population doesn't wake up, what happened to Prithviraj Chouhan and his kindom will end up happening to India. The first causalty would proabably be this journalist.

Melodious Lula-bees are again being wafting across from the Borders.

Time now to stop going near the places where Kasab and Team staged the Bhangras of Dostana three yrs back .

One would imagine the thick dossiers placed before the danda maar brigade also contain information, readily available in the public domain, which explains why Pakistan needs to improve its relationship with India. And vice versa.

In a companion column, someone has said India is a large country with a small heart. Reopen the consulates, let the one in Bombay be sited in Jinnah House.

One would imagine the thick dossiers placed before the danda maar brigade contain information about

In a companion column, someone has said India is a large country with a small heart. Reopen the consulates, let the one in Bombay be sited in Jinnah House.

One would imagine the thick dossiers placed before the danda maar brigade contain information about

One would imagine the thick dossiers placed before the danda maar brigade also contain information, readily available in the public domain, which explains why Pakistan needs to improve its relationship with India. And vice versa.

Melodious Lula-bees are again being wafting across from the Borders.

Time now to stop going near the places where Kasab and Team staged the Bhangras of Dostana three yrs back .

This Journalists sufffer from the "Prithviraj Chouhan" syndrome.. It appears, if were in his hands, he would gift pakistan Siachen and Kashmir and single peace songs all the days. If population doesn't wake up, what happened to Prithviraj Chouhan and his kindom will end up happening to India. The first causalty would proabably be this journalist.

For a moment I thought I was reading article from Pakisthani Newspaper.... Alas ! our Big time columnists had read Pakisthani Newspapers and watch their TV channels. Pakistan thought that they had trump card in Taliban, but after Doha talk between USA and Taliban, the card had to be devalued. china is pressing to act against Pakisthan based terrorists, Saudi is wary of Pakisthan's games and cannot go very close to Iran for Historical reasons. So all dressed up to but  nowhere to go .. so turn to India and these fools fall over each other to welcome Pakisthan. They gave MFN status 15 years after India gave. it has not yet operationalize. But look Indian have already liberalized Visa regime. They wanted Indian visas desperately... Why ? nobody has given any explaination. After wards we will spend money and manpoer in searching out Pakistanis and deporting because they have overstayed. 

But even before operationalizing of MFN status by Pakisthan our Intellectuals ( without Intelligence) are talking of Siachen, sir Creek.. No article was publised to prod Mamata Banergy to relent on Tista water .. for Bangaladesh which has taken great pains to be our friend .. but look here ..    Pakisthanis call us enemy and act accordingly and we are  falling over eachother to flatter them... How an entire nation is taken for ride by few assurances from Pak is really astonishing !  

All signs of rapprochement are welcome. A bloody feud between two next door neighbors with the same history and heritage cannot last for ever. Writing in Pak Tea House, Raza Raja says, "I am a Pakistani Indian……I am the heir to the same great Indus valley civilization and I have the same claim to India as those who belong to modern political India. It is this common great heritage, underpinned by the idea of India independent of political configurations, which unites me with those who live in the present political entity of India. It is our common heritage irrespective of our different political and for that matter even cultural differences( because India has many sub cultures which differ substantially from each other )."

Dawn columnist  Nadeem F. Paracha has written several articles denouncing the idea that Pakistanis have an Arab heritage and not an Indian one. He has received wide support in readers' comments.

>> A bloody feud between two next door neighbors with the same history and heritage cannot last for ever

Don't think Pakis believe that we share the same history or heritage.

 The main contention between India and Pakistan from the day of independence is Kashmir. The small incremental steps might ease out the tension but there can't be ever lasting peace till Kashmir remains unresolved. The best part is that Kashmir CANNOT be resolved. It is the nerve center of both the countries. Right now, Pakistanis are facing existential threat and are ready to put Kashmir in abeyance. Once American forces are out of Af-Pak, the generals and the politicians will again start harping on Kashmir issue. 

Siachen, Sir Creek and militancy are all related to Kashmir. All the factors come into play when Kashmir issue is discussed and are used to score browny points. So whats bad in talking about peace. We have Aman ki Asha going on and lets keep chatting with Pakistanis. The bitter truth is that once there's no Kashmir issue between India and Pakistan, there will be no India and Pakistan left in the world and they will balkanize. 

Bajapi went with his Dostana Bus to Lahore.Lot of bhappies ,jhappies ,tangri kabas,seek kabas were shared with Nawaz ( for name sake a Sharief ).

Mush ensured the return journey of the Dostan Bus ended at Kargil Heights .Our Parliament was attacked .Many brave Security men sacrificed their lives to save worthless politicians who tremble and even shit at thought of hanging the culprit Afzal Guru.

Simultaneously we hear ear splitting chants from the Pak supporters' crowds in India chanting 'kaya karein wakil galat tha Afzal ka .Insaaf nahin hua Afzak keiy saath .Kabhi hota hi nahin yahan "

Poor Bajpai had to get replaced his knees after coming down from Heights of the Kargil immediately after Kargil Journey .

Meanwhile TVs were blaring Mush and ISI Chief Maehmood teletalk 'Jannab Terror ki tooti (Tap ) hamre control mein hein .Jab chaein bund kar dey geinye ya khol dein geBajapi went with his Dostana Bus to Lahore.Lot bhappies ,jhappies ,tnagri kabas,seek kabas were shared with Nawaz for name sake a Sharief .Mush ensured the return journey of the Dostan Bus ended at Kargil Heights .Our parliament was attacked .Many brave Security men sacrificed their lives to save worthless politicians who now piss at though of hanging the culprit Afzal Guru with ear splitting chants from the Pak supporters crowds 'kaya karein wakil galat tha Afzal ka .Insaaf nahin hua.Kabhi hota hinahin "

Poor Bajpai had to get replaced his knees after coming down from Heights of the Kargil .

While Kargil was on  TVs were blaring Mush and ISI Chief Maehmood teletalk 'Jannab Terror ki tooti (Tap ) hamre control mein hein . Jannab Jab chaein bund kar dey geinge ya khol deinge . Jaise abhi khol di hamney u-----'

There after Manmohan Singh went on mission to trace his roots in Pakistan and see his Zamindari of pre-partition days.

We again paid the price with hundereds of deads,thousands maimed , Billion Rs loss to our econmy on 26/11 .

Candle-Mombatiwalas are now on the streets chanting Dosti- Dosti -Dosti--with Paki Generals controlling the killer brigades reared to decimate India and World at large .The Killer Islamic terrorists who sneak in at their will without rhyme and reason.

Manmohan went to Sherm-el-Sheikh signed papers drafted by Pakis .Pledged eternal friendship to our killers .

Now again paigam e Dosti has come from across the Borders .

Candle-Mombatiwalas are on the streets in India chanting Dosti- Dosti -Dosti--with Paki Generals controlling the killer brigades reared to decimate India and World at large .

 Zardari has invited Manohan Singh to Pakistan once again .

KHUDA KHEIR KAREIN !

{Sorry overlapping took in drafting -amended as below }

Bajapi went with his Dostana Bus to Lahore.Lot of bhappies ,jhappies ,tangri kabas,seek kabas were shared with Nawaz ( for name sake a Sharief ).

Mush ensured the return journey of the Dostan Bus ended at Kargil Heights .Our Parliament was attacked .Many brave Security men sacrificed their lives to save worthless politicians who tremble and even shit at thought of hanging the culprit Afzal Guru.

Poor Bajpai had to get replaced his knees after coming down from Heights of the Kargil immediately after Kargil Journey .

Many brave Security men sacrificed their lives to save worthless politicians who now piss at though of hanging the culprit Afzal Guru with ear splitting chants from the Pak supporters crowds 'kaya karein wakil galat tha Afzal ka .Insaaf nahin hua.Kabhi hota hi nahin yahaan  "

While Kargil was on TVs were blaring Mush and ISI Chief Maehmood teletalk 'Jannab Terror ki tooti (Tap ) hamre control mein hein . Jannab Jab chaein bund kar dey geinge ya khol deinge tooti. Jaise abhi khol di hamney u----- tooti'

There after Manmohan Singh went on mission to trace his roots in Pakistan and see his Zamindari of pre-partition days.

We again paid the price with hundereds of deads,thousands maimed , Billion Rs loss to our econmy on 26/11 .

Manmohan went to Sherm-el-Sheikh signed papers drafted by Pakis .Pledged eternal friendship to our killers .

Now again paigam e Dosti has come from across the Borders .

Candle-Mombatiwalas are on the streets in India chanting Dosti- Dosti -Dosti--with Paki Generals controlling the killer brigades reared to decimate India and World at large .

Zardari has invited Manohan Singh to Pakistan once again .

KHUDA KHEIR KAREIN !
 

If Pakistan is indeed serious, the best thing it can do is to slowly but surely liquidate its anti-India terror infrastructure. When illegal infingements in Valley start coming down, and we don't have 26/11 and Parliament attacks here in India, the conflict will automatically start getting de-escalated.

Till then, I profess caution. There is a saying in Hindi -  Doodh ka Jala Chhach bhi phoonk phoonk kar peeta hai - in English, the equivalent is Once Bitten, Twice Shy.

No dreamy eyed romantics please! Our relationship has been sour for the last 60 years. I will be very happy if it can get better, but I would judge the improvement in the relationship over the next 10 years, not by 2 or 3 actions, masquerading as "strategic shift".

pakistan refuses prosecute 26/11, still keeps sending terrororists to India and indians keeps talking about the peace and gving up siachen..  So far there is no concrete measure towards from pak side and these journalists are talking peace. This MFN status (anyway india gave MFN status to pak 15 years back...) is a measure is driven by the desire to attract indian investments in  Pak.  What is in it for India?? Anyway india gave MFN status to pak 15 years back...

why are these journos harping on peace with pak as if it has given back POK to indiA.

>> "pakistan refuses prosecute 26/11" - Bharat

Even India is dilly-dallying on prosecuting the lone man captured. Instead, we have jokers trying to convince us how it was a 'RSS ka saazinsh'!! Out there in Mumbai, lawyers and judges are contemplating on serious issues like: Kasab's age as deduced from dental tests, Biryani requests, his requests for Urdu papers etc. 

Why blame Pakistan when we ourselves are incapable of handling our mess?

What PAKISTAN is doing is exactly what has been done many times previously- when WEAK & BATTERED (as Pakistan is today) extend hand of friendship. (it was done by Zulfikar Ali Bhutto after 1971 war too- and then from 1989 commenced pushing JEHADIS into Kashmir). Pakistan is waiting for that one opportunity to DEFEAT India and then decimate the DEFEATED India. Be reminded of PRITVIRAJ CHOUHAN  

>>>Ghori's army, fled leaving Muhammad Ghauri as a prisoner in Pritiviraj's hands. Muhammad Ghauri was brought in chains to Pithoragarh – Prithviraj's capital and he begged his victor for mercy and release. Prithviraj's ministers advised against pardoning the aggressor. But the chivalrous and valiant Prithviraj thought otherwise and respectfully released the vanquished Ghori <<<

REST IS HISTORY- when PRITVIRAJ was defeated he was DECIMATED by GHAURI.  THOSE WHO FORGET THE PAST (HISTORY) ARE CONDEMNED TO REPEAT IT.

For the simple reason that Muslim Pakistan and Indian's animosity are essential to the success of Hindutva and BJP,the relationship will never improve.The RSS hawks are everywhere from Congress party to the top most intelligence apparatus for whom the triumph of Hindutva is sacro sanct and superseeds nation's concerns.

After Dec 2012 money will start to talk - iow private business (on both sides of the border) will have an increasingly big stake in noramlisation and peace.

I think the political impact of this will be illuminating.

One should not take Pakistan words of peace seriously. We are not against any friendship but we should explore whether there is such a possibility. Otherwise it is dangerous to go ahead. After all France and England fought for 100 years or more and now living in friendship.

It is not because of any threat from Pakistan in the form of a war but because, at last the idiots in Pakistan realized that they can never win a war (a conventional) against India.
The problem is that of Pak society and their highly brainwashed youth. The problem is their population under the control of fatwas, jehadis and Taliban. Any serious open border means we shall be polluting our own society.

You only have to see the debate in their TV or just search YouTube for recordings. Many Pakistanis think that they are different from "Hindustani" and some (idiots) go further and say that Pakistanis had civilized the Hindus and brought "culture" to them.

Many so called Pakistani intellectuals believe that they have a specific culture of their own in eating, singing and living as compared to “Indians" and there has been nothing similar !!! !!.
I do not deny that in these YouTube videos , many also argued against such nonsense and emphasized that they are in no way and can never be different from Indians either in family system, eating ,drinking etc.,
 

Hindus never wrote history,much less never read history and that is their bane.Muslims ,on the other hand are always linked to past history.They have all the love and respect for an outsider like Babar only because he was a Muslim.Muslims think that the British should have handed over entire of India to Muslims,because the last emperor was the Mughal ,Bahadur Shah,from whom the British took over.In South India,Tipu Sultan is the hero for Muslims,inspite of his bigotted actions in demolishing thousands of temples in Malabar and forcibly converting Hindus there.On the other hand ,Hindus instead of being thankful to the British for restoring the Hindu Wodeyar dynasty,foolishly think Tipu was a freedom fighter.Hindu stupidity continues,when they vote for anti-Hindu forces who proclaim themselves to be secular.Self destruction,is another name for Hindu soceity.

Nagaraj,

>> Muslims think that the British should have handed over entire of India to Muslims,because the last emperor was the Mughal ,Bahadur Shah.

Why do you lie so much? Is exacerbating hatred against Muslims and Christians the sole purpose of your life?

<<<<Muslim Pakistan and Indian's animosity are essential to the success of Hindutva and BJP>>>>>

So Mr Vajpayee went to Pakistan in a Bus and met Pak PM- Shareef to plan the KARGIL attack. General Kayani will be overthrown by a ZIA or MUSH and that will be the end of "Siachen peace propasal".

If General Kayani is serious about "Siachen peace propasal" all he has to do is to mark the present position held by Indian & Pak Army in Siachen on a map and  "authenticate it by affixing his signature on it". But KAYANI WILL NEVER DO IT as the propasal is just FACADE to fool India.

"Kashmir should be discussed within a political paradigm rather than a security one"

The area of J&K under Pakistani occupation was captured through the use of armed force by Pakistan. If that be acceptable, then the occupation of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip by Israel through the use of armed force is equally acceptable.

Para 6(b) of the UN resolution speaking of plebiscite which Pakistan loves to reiterate unambiguously states "All persons (other than citizens of the State) who on or since 15 August 1947 have entered it for other than lawful purpose, shall be required to leave the State". Besides, each and every election in J&K is a plebiscite. Whether or not you support Omar Abdullah or Mehbooba Mufti they are, after all, democratically elected leaders. Is there a single native born Kashmiri in the euphemistically termed "Azad Kashmir" who is actually a popular leader and not a puppet?

Since 1947 we Indians have conclusively proven that the assumption that the Muslims of the sub-continent constitute a separate nation is flawed and was mainly postulated to protect the rights of a very few Punjabi Muslim landowners.

So what political paradigm remains? To suggest that the Line of Control be converted to a formal border is an insult to every jawan who has laid down his life in the inhospitable terrain of the high Himalayas. Maintaining a deployment in Siachen apparently costs Rs.3 crores a day - but how much is that actually? Maybe Rs.1000-2000 crore per annum? That is irrelevant - what is relevant is the high morale of our boys in olive green.

Every Indian dreams of a situation where sending armed terrorists to massacre innocent civilians would not constitute an integral facet of Pakistani foreign policy. Amongst those slaughtered in the November 2008 Mumbai attack were Indian Muslims as in most other such attacks. So the jehad theory has been well and truly exploded. We can only hope and pray for the dawn of sanity amongst those who matter in Pakistan.

Till then, keep the powder dry.

 make hay when the sun shines in diplomacy ,,,,,,the only caveat-- never do that when pakistan is involved !!!!!!!

Team Jinnah advertized their two nation theory as a convenient pretext for the hidden agenda of usurping political power through partition or otherwise. Like any other power hungry politician Jinnah, a non-religious, westernized lawyer embraced the religious bigots and hatemongers as his tactic, but after achieving political power through communal riots and mass scale displacement of people he wanted to establish a secular non-theocratic western democracy. No wonder Pakistan has been living in existential dilemma since birth.

Given the weak foundational idea, Pakistan continues to suffer from an identity crisis. A  nationhood based on pure Islamic identities calls for the false assertion of closer ethnic and cultural associations with the Arabs. Also as follows from the two-nation theory, a distinctiveness of its nationhood from India's calls for a refusal to disown their own Indian heritage. A larger population of Muslims residing in India makes Pakistan's notion of equating India with Hindus alone that much inaccurate. Creation of Bangladesh proved Islamic identity cannot supercede ethnic identity. Ironically, today for Pakistanis to embrace India and Indian heritage is like disowning the two nation theory that was the basis of Pakistan's creation.

However, a section of the Pakistani elite in the media space indeed acknowledge their Indian roots and favor better relations with India. Still there is also a large section of Pakistani society -intellectuals, opinion makers as well as the semi literate people on streets who harbor the traditional Islam-centric, anti Indian, anti-Hindu , views.

For Indians to get carried away by one side of this debate is akin to not acknowledging the opposing view. We have seen that the bus-train diplomacy, people to people contact across the Wagah border and the cricket diplomacy do not necessarily prevent Kargil war and 26/11 attacks,  Cosmetic changes do not necessarily prove a permanent change of heart. The best option is to remain cautiously optimistic and take measured reciprocal  approach - let us not get overly carried away by the opinions of either Bharat Bhushan or  the so-called danda-maar brigade .

 " For the first time, the Pakistan army and the politicians are on the same page on improving ties with India."

However this is NOT the first time this line has been used. I remember the time Mush came to power. The candle light crowd was as usual ecstatic. " previously there was a perpetual conflict between the army and civilians. But now that the army has taken over the civilian control, peace is possible for the first time".

And we know how things worked out. 

The problem with articles like this is that it is based on a premise that is unwarranted. Somehow the premise is ingrained in everyone-that we need to engage with Pak to restore peace. I see no validity in the premise to begin with. There is no need to engage with Pak at the higher levels. And while establishing peace is a lofty goal, I see no reason why peace has to be established on Pak's terms. Till we have the upper and winning hand, India can afford to wait.

How, where and why will I ever believe that ISI will not do a Mumbai-attack once again? 

What is it about ISI and its lap dog LeT, that will convince me that they have become the cheerleaders for the Indian nation?

Give me a break.  This is a tactical lull in their strategic intention to cut India down to size and splinter it if possible, for all the wrongs and humiliations the Indian nation has piled on them (read "East Pakistan bungaya Bangladesh"). 

Their contempt and hatred against India and "an earning to associate with the Muslim cultures and lands to their west as far away from Bharath as possible" is a multi-generational affliction and cannot be washed over by new trade benefits and business development. Such white hot hatred will transcend any such sham, shallow attempts for so called peace, because none really exists in any of their hearts.

Kashmir is crux of the entire problem between India and Pakistan, according to some analysts but even that is doubtful. It is because we see Pakistan sponsored terrorist attacks in India outside of Kashmir. It is also because their intention as we understand or perceive is that they want to disintegrate India. In other words, the psychology of the masses, lack of democratic institutions and total absence of a charismatic leader in Pakistan who can mold public opinion for a friendship with India are some of the reasons.

Plebiscite was not conducted in Kashmir as per UN resolutions because Pakistan in the last minute backed out of such an exercise. It was not India which tried to occupy Kashmir by military force but Pakistan. According to some historians, Pakistan had a chance to integrate Kashmir but lost such a chance by trying to forcefully take it. Jinnah cajoled even Maharaja of Kashmir with such promises as self-governing or autonomous Kashmir within Pakistan.

Jihadist, Afghan mercenaries and other countries that are funding these people do not want any political solution. ISI sponsored attacks on Pundits of the valley that led finally driving them out of Kashmir compounded the problem. Until Pundits return back to their homes and lands, until Srinagar is completely peaceful there shall be no real friendship with Pakistan, it is really impossible.
 

Bowenpalle,

>>  their intention as we understand or perceive is that they want to disintegrate India.

That is not an accurate perception. It may be true for Saeed and some religious nuts who live in a delusional world, but their percentage would be no bigger than that of some of our saffronites who would like to see Pakistan disintegrate. The vast majority, I would think, desire normal relations. A fear of India was for many years a dominant emotion, but that fear is receding, and replaced to some extent by a desire to tour India, for sight seeing, but above all for shopping!

The vast majority, of Pakistanis have been fed a steady witches' brew diet of contempt and hatred against India. Just go and check even now, their school text books from grade 1. The books are so India centric and India hating, it belies any rational explanation.
 

Such hatred is very much kept alive on a daily basis by the fear of what happened to half of their nation in the east. And why India should be brought to its knees, so that it doesn't happen to them again. Fear is not receding, but instead anything but that, with the now drumbeat of relentless propaganda that Indians have set up shop in Afghanistan to do another "Bangladesh" in their Baluchistan.
 

If anything, the vast majority of Pakistanis have been brought up from day-1 to disassociate from everything connected with India and instead to look westward for the "morally and culturally superior lands from where God's religion was born and had spread". They are not interested in sight seeing in India, but rather the last caliphate land of Turkey, Iran and the rest of the Gulf. As for shopping, with a per-capita income of one of the lowest in the world, the nothing but broke Pakistanis will not make a diddly dent in India's trade or business returns, even if a few stragglers do end up sneaking into India far away from the ordained, and beaten track to these other Arab and Muslim lands to their west.

 
Why refuse to recognise a change in mindset for what it is?
BHARAT BHUSHAN

The author vastly overestimates his powers of persuasion. He should try mass hypnosis.

"The vast majority, I would think, desire normal relations. A fear of India was for many years a dominant emotion, but that fear is receding," -Anwaar

That is your own speculation. Since 1999 this script has been shown so many times. Oh there has been a genuine change of heart. Jito Dil...Diya jaalao...Samjhotaa express..blah ..blah..blah

In reality Pakistan has continued with a foreign policy of duplicity, denial and deception. Their overt process of normalizing the relation with India went along with the covert process of subversion. They fought with a section of Taliban and Al Qaeda while covertly supporting terrorist training camps and harboring safe passage to LET leadership and Bin Laden. It is therefore difficult to judge whether the recent peace initiative with India is genuine or another ploy to seek time out in proxy war against India until consolidating their strategic depth in the neighboring Afghanistan.

Even if your speculation is correct, a healthy dose of skepticism is fine for the reality check given Pakistan's long history of duplicity. Measured reciprocity and cautious optimism should be the way to go for India.

DC,

>> In reality Pakistan has continued with a foreign policy of duplicity, denial and deception.

They see us the same way we see them. We should not put too much stock in such shibboleths. What appears to us to be their policy of duplicity, denial and deception may seem to them as being perfectly logical in view of their circumstances.

Even if the author's view and Mr. Durrani's statements are true, and it is not quite clear this is unambiguously the case, what actions would India undertake differently than it is already on course for?

India has always been for increase people to people contact, trade and in general better relations. It is Pakistan which blocks these measures offering Kashmir as the ostensible reason.

It is also known in the public domain that India has twice destroyed its covert action / dirty tricks capabilities in Pakistan - once under Morarji Desai (for which he got Nishan e Pakistan) and once under I K Gujral. Even if Indian intelligence agencies have now built this capability again and fund the Balochistan movement, which has been alleged but never really been proven through any information in the public domain anyway, India will in all likelihood stop such funding, if Pakistan stops its covert support for terrorism in India.

On Kashmir, recent Indian governments have supported negotiations and it is alleged both governments almost came to a deal in 2007.

All in all, Pakistan holds almost all the cards - it can improve or deteriorate (for other perceived benefits) relations with India at will. The advice given to Mr. Durrani by his Indian counterparts was pretty sound - "Show your intent in your actions and perhaps you will achieve what you want to achieve". Don't know what "believing" that Pakistan's intent has changed will accomplish. Perhaps a slightly increased effort level from Indian bureaucratic circles but how much is that really worth - speed doesn't matter if you don't know where you want to go...

The Proof of the pudding is in the eating. If Pakistani mindset has indeed changed , India will see it practically instantly.  There are several pointers that'll indicate such change. So Terrorist training camps in POK will wind down; infilitration will turn into a trickle; Hafiz Saeed will be muzzeled; Daud will be found ....... The list goes on and on. This will happen even before Pakistan rethinks their  hate filled divisive philosophy; on which they have based their "Land of the pure". General Durrani maybe saying these sweet things in all honesty but in a country where left hand does not know what the right  hand of  the establishment is doing as is evident in Osama case; he has a very hard sell in front of him. Especially when he can not site a single concrete step that supports this theory.  Granting MFN status to India fifteen years too late is not one of them.  As a signatory to WTO Pakistan had to do it.

The reason I feel nothing is going to happen is because Pakistan has more to fear from India's friendship than her animosity. As soon as they become friends the entire raison d'etre of a separate Pakistan will collapse. What will save their country then? Actually every section of  the Pakistani establishment knows this and that's why anti India lashkars and Difa E Pakistan kind of organisations have complete state patronage. It will not change anytime soon. It will go further underground and will be hidden better from us. Let us not get fooled into buying a lemon by the used car salesman visiting from across the border .

"What appears to us to be their policy of duplicity, denial and deception may seem to them as being perfectly logical in view of their circumstances." Anwaar

Criminals usually have perfectly logical reasons for commiting crimes. A bank robber wants money, which is perfectly logical given his circumstances if he is poor. A mass murderer may be delusional, so in the circumstances of his delusional state, mass murder may seem perfectly logical. That does not lessen the gravity of their crimes.

Pakistan is a terrorist state that killed 3 million defenseless Hindus in 1971  -  R.J.Rummel, the scholar of genocide, classifies as a "megamurderer state" in the same class as the Khmer Rouge. We need to cut the head off of this snake, no pander to it.

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/20TH.HTM

 THere is no hope of peace with people who have learned braishwashed history against India and specially hindus. Few intellectuals from Dawn may give some orgasm to Candellwallahs, but it is not going to change the ground reality. 

 It is nice to know that this was an opnion peace, and as it is said everyone under the sun has an opnion. if the writer of this article had even an iota of knowledge about history of conflicts around the world and their points of resolution, he might not have attempted to waste the paper upon which he printed this amtuerish piece. The only reason the Pakis are taking about working out stuff is cause the honey and milk line of 2 billion dollars in military aid has been cut from the USA, for now. But that might be a very short lived thing. So till that funding can be turned back on, they are buying for time.India spends about $200.00 millions dollars on its forces in Siachen, which is loose change for India but for Pakistan that is a lot of money. And as they see that we are out spending them in the defence sector the only thing they can do is make all this goody goody noices with no action to follow, cause they believe  some of the jelley brain's in India, who are on their take will make clack of a noice to divert India from it's goal of total domination over the Pakis and maybe taint our guns towards China. No wonder all of a sudden there is so much of noise about China in the Indian media but not much about Pakis. So Mr. Bushan  I think you fall in the category of journalist whom Justice Katju decribes as not being very well read or even bright or you are both well read and bright but can be bought for 30 peices of silver. Either way you need to go back to school or take up something else to do, Maybe apply for job at the Paki embassy.

Anwaar mian

[[Why do you lie so much? Is exacerbating hatred against Muslims and Christians the sole purpose of your life?]]

This shows how ignorant you are of the partition movement. Jinnah did argue that since Muslims ruled India before the British came in, India should be handed over to them (Muslims) when the British left. A simple google search should do it for you. If you didn't know this before, you're as dumb as a bat. If you knew this and still argued the way you did, you're plain dishonest.

>> Jinnah did argue that since Muslims ruled India before the British came in....

This is bullshit history generated by RSS historians and quoted by ill-bred morons who insist on calling me Anwarar mian.

[[This is bullshit history generated by RSS historians and quoted by ill-bred morons who insist on calling me Anwarar mian.]]

Anwaar mian, the kind of language you use in your posts shows your own upbringing, not mine. And did I say before that I use "mian" exclusively for ill-bred morons (since you only seem to understand the language you speak) like you?

Anyways, coming back to history, anything that does not meet your Islamic standards is labelled as RSS history. Why am I not surprised? Muslims after all, are suppposed to be milk pure and Hindus a regressive tribe that believes in doctoring history to sully the milk-pure reputation of Muslims. What an idiot!!

@@@their intention as we understand or perceive is that they want to disintegrate India.
That is not an accurate perception. It may be true for Saeed and some religious nuts who live in a delusional world,
@@Anwaar

Powerful people in Pakistan want a disintegration of India. This is not a fancy idea of some fanatics or lunatic few but that of all army bigwigs and political heads.

Yet another misconception is that it is natural to Pakistan to distrust India and also natural for them to have a desire for revenge for whatever happened to their "east Pakistan" in 1971. Indira Gandhi gave a death blow to Pakistan. I think Pakistan was the first beneficiary in her violent assassination.

Much before any 1971 situation Pakistan fomented trouble in the Mizoram and Nagaland due to their position or geographical advantage of East Pakistan. It gave Indira Gandhi such a head ache that Christian missionaries started helping ISI in Nagaland. Even she started feeling that she was losing control. So, associating trouble in Kashmir (after Rajiv Gandhi's defeat ) with that of creating Bangladesh is not historically correct.

Many times western observers claimed that India has not been able to digest the fact of creation of Pakistan out of India and that is the reason for their animosity. Some of them went further to claim very often that India want to "finish" Pakistan just because they cannot digest the existence of Pakistan at all.

The facts are off course very different. India never went to war with Pakistan even in 1971 !! Indira Gandhi waited until Pakistan attacked in the West. Until Paki Air Force started bombing Agarthala and J&K.

It is true that Jinnah enticed Maharaja of Kashmir with an autonomous region within Kashmir and Maharaja was in good terms with Jinnah. That was only one reason he delayed merger with Indian Union until he was attacked by Pakistan army mixed with barbarian tribal.

I know so many Pakistanis since I worked in foreign country and their general behaviour is that of terrible fear of India with a very poor knowledge or no knowledge of Hinduism. In fact they have very ridiculous opinions about Hinduism along with hatred. Another fact is that common people definitely want friendship with India and very clearly know that they cannot have different identity from Indians. Many Pakistani hotels generally put the name "Indian restaurant".
Until democracy, secularism thrives in Pakistan , a meaningful friendship cannot emerge.

Anwaar mian,

For your reading pleasure, excerpted from "The Great Divide: Muslim Separatism and Partition" by S.C. Bhatt (apologies, I had said it was Jinnah):

"Make no mistake, the sentiment that Muslims, in general, being heirs to Sultans and emperors of the past was voiced freely by the newly elected MLAs of the League. At a convention of the League legislators, this was voiced by Ismail I. Chundrigar, who as we have noted, became for a while the Prime Minister of Pakistan. He told the MLAs that the British had no right to hand over the Muslims to a subject people over whom they had ruled 500 years."

Now come up with something concrete to counter this and not stupid allegations about SC Bhatt being an RSS historian.

 "This is bullshit history generated by RSS historians and quoted by ill-bred morons who insist on calling me Anwarar mian."

The point was made by Sir Syed. And it was a point repeated by many muslim politicians and Maulanas during the following decades. And Jinnah was just one of the many politicians who saw muslims are the real rulers of India and having lost their rule because of the British.

It is TRUE that MUSLIMS made traders- East India Company- rulers for the first time when MIR JAFFAR sided with British to defeat SIRAJUDDHIN to hand over Bengal to BRITISH in 1756. The rest of India was ruled by non-Muslims - the AHOMS, MARATHAS, RAJPUTS & SIKH. They together controled  Attock to Assam & Kashmir to Madurai (in TN) for more than 125 years from 1720 to 1845- a period seldom discussed or thaught in school. (The MUGHAL KING was made a puppet by 1720- within 13 years of the death of AURANGI). All the MUSLIM RULERS including NAWAB of AUDH invited the Afghan King - Ahamd Shah Abdali and joined him to defeat the Marathas in 1761- Third battle of Panipat. Had the Muslims thus not weakened MARATHAS, probably the BRITISH could  have been restricted to Bengal. 

A perception has been created that the British tookover India from Mughals ignoring the 125 years of Indian History. The Mughals ruled PARTS of India uniterrupted for only 161 years from Akbar (1556)to AURANGI (1707). ASSAM, KERALA etc  were never captured by Mughals.  

"This is bullshit history generated by RSS historians and quoted by ill-bred morons who insist on calling me Anwarar mian."

The point was made by Sir Syed"

We dont need to go back that far. Cursory look at their textbooks should give idea.  WHo else would name a missile after invader ? 

Alakshyendra,

>> "apologies, I had said it was Jinnah" ...... "Chundrigar told the MLAs that the British had no right to hand over the Muslims to a subject people over whom they had ruled 500 years."

I hate to converse with an ill-bred idiot who insists on calling me Anwaar miya, but since you want to persist with your lies, your quotes above themselves show that you are a liar. First you had attributed to Jinnah something he had never said, and now you want us to believe that Chundrigar saying "the British had no right to hand over the Muslims to a subject people over whom they had ruled 500 years," is the same as "since Muslims ruled India before the British came in, India should be handed over to them (Muslims) when the British left"! Where does Chundrigar say that India should be  handed over to Muslims? The phrase, "a subject people over whom they had ruled 500 years," is definitely rude and ill-advised, but he is not at all saying what you had alleged. Rude and ill-advised remarks were made by people on both sides in those days, but don't attribute to them things they did not say.

Bowenpalle,

>> Powerful people in Pakistan want a disintegration of India.

There is no evidence of that. I have heard crackpots like Saeed and fanatic mullahs say such things, but no one in recognised political or governmental leadership has expressed such notions. You are right that Pakistanis for long saw India as an existential threat, but that fear has receded since they started stockpiling nuclear weapons.

Ganesan,

>> "The point was made by Sir Syed."....."Jinnah was just one of the many politicians who saw muslims are the real rulers of India."

This is bullshit. Neither of them ever said "since Muslims ruled India before the British came in, India should be handed over to them (Muslims) when the British left." Sir Syed, just like Lala Lajpath Rai and Pundit Madanmohan Malaviya, believed that India was in fact two nations. Jinnah, as an advocate, tried to protect Muslim interests, either in a confederation or through partition. We may disagree with them, but let us not tell lies about them.

Maha,

>> Cursory look at their textbooks should give idea. WHo else would name a missile after invader ?

True, but irrelevant.

>> Sir Syed, just like Lala Lajpath Rai and Pundit Madanmohan Malaviya, believed that India was in fact two nations

The jehadi stuck pig can't help himself and has to show his loyalty to scoundrels like Syed by equating likes of Lala Lajpat Rai and Pandit Madanmohan Malaviya with him.

Syed, while commenting on Hindi-Urdu controversy had said

Urdu was the language of gentry and Hindi that of the vulgar

Did either Lala Rai or Pandit Malaviya say anything so obscene to be brought in discussion with the original proponent of the two nation theory?

There is derogatory stuff on the internet about Lala Lajpat Rai, Madan Mohan Malaviya and Sir Syed, but I would not post it here. All three were great leaders of their time and should not be judged by current standards.

>>>>In South India,Tipu Sultan is the hero for Muslims,inspite of his bigotted actions in demolishing thousands of temples in Malabar and forcibly converting Hindus there.On the other hand

Nagarajavare, can you please tell me why the ranganathasawamy temple built in 9th century by the Ganga dyansty was not demolished by Tippu Sultan, even though Sri Rangapatna became the defacto Capital under Hyder Ali and Tipu Sultan?  if his sole iintention was to destroy all hindu temples, why will he not destroy the very temple that gave his capital, it name?

>> There is derogatory stuff on the internet about Lala Lajpat Rai, Madan Mohan Malaviya

Any jehadi with a keyboard and Internet connection can post such stuff. The question was what have "they" said, that compares to the vulgar comments of Syed, not to mention his two nation theory.

>> All three were great leaders of their time and should not be judged by current standards

So was Churchill. Don't you criticize him?

@Suresh Kamat "if his sole iintention was to destroy all hindu temples, why will he not destroy the very temple that gave his capital, it name?"

Did Nagaraj say "his sole intention was to destroy ALL hindu temples" ? That is your misrepresentation. (Similar misrepresentation of facts were manifest on TV last night where Ramdev was accused of telling "ALL MPS are criminals,corrupt, murderers" - A familiar tactic from sickular crowd).

Is it your argument that- "Since Tipu has not TOTALLY destroyed ALL hindu temples he is secular" ?

Please do not be lulled by this ingeniously created brouha.Pakistan must surrender the

interpol searched terrorists first. Did anybody look into what has happened to minorities in Pakistan? Time is not far when our sophist media will be exposed of their hidden desires.

Pakistan is a muslim nation. No muslim nation in history has lived peacefully with others, whether of semite variety or else.What has been their contribution to human upliftment in technology or science or morality?Given the choice 99% of muslims will prefer US to Saudi Arabia or anyother country in the middle east.

There is no evidence of that. " Faruki

Evidence nahin hein ji .Vasey bhi agar hoga to hamm toh kabhi maney ge nahin ji because that 26/11 was the Sajjish of RSS not the LeT -ISI and Karkare was killed too by Hindus  though I don't agree (uttered on mutest mode) but majority of the Muslims believe so ji ( on highest pitch notes ).

>>>> Did Nagaraj say "his sole intention was to destroy ALL hindu temples" ?

You are right. Nagaraj did not say that. Those were my words.

>>>Is it your argument that- "Since Tipu has not TOTALLY destroyed ALL hindu temples he is secular" ?

No , I am merely trying to point out that not that not everything is black and white.

If Tippu was like evil like  Aurangazeb, I would have expected him to at least to destroy the very temple that was in the capital city, that gave its name. Any way that is my personal line of thought. 

Ghai,

>> Evidence nahin hein ji.

Why should you worry about things like 'evidence' when you don't ever worry wbout what is being discussed before jumping in with your inane remarks?

Anwaar mian,

My post was in response to your argument that Muslims didn't ask to be made rulers of India again. There is enough evidence that Muslim leaders were in no mood to be ruled by Hindus, but they were okay being made rulers again.

BTW, what difference does it make whether it was Chundrigar or Jinnah? Weren't both leaders of the Muslim community?

I can post Jinnah's speeches in which he was okay with Congress handing over power to Muslims and boasted how only Muslim rule could ensure justice to minorities. If you want I can post reams and reams of material supporting the fact. Do you have anything to counter it? From your posts, it appears the only things you have are lies, abuse and obfuscation, typical of the morons we find across the world.

You may not like discussing with people who bring up uncomfortable facts, but I'm perfectly okay with talking even to ill-bred morons like you. Who knows, wisdom and honesty may suddenly dawn upon you.

Government must tread with utmost caution.

Thinking Saffron Parivar would give up its bread and better so easily is laughable. Its very reason for existence. What would happen to "Mian Musharraf" brand of philosophy ?

Alekshyendra,

It is so unpleasant for me to interact with a gutter level moron like you who insists on calling me Anwar miya, but since you want to persist with your lie, I shall give this final reply.

You said, "My post was in response to your argument that Muslims didn't ask to be made rulers of India again." Your response was a lie. Chundrigar did not say that Muslims should be rulers of India again. Read it again, carefully and slowly. Are you retarded?

My last post in this thread.

Anwaar mian,

[[You said, "My post was in response to your argument that Muslims didn't ask to be made rulers of India again." Your response was a lie. Chundrigar did not say that Muslims should be rulers of India again. Read it again, carefully and slowly. Are you retarded?]]

There you go again, showing the full glory of the mean streets in which you were bred.

If Muslims didn't want to be ruled by Hindus in an independent India, what did that mean? Surely they weren't looking to be ruled by Christians or Sikhs? Anyone with an iota of common sense would understand what the implication of Chundrigar's statement was, but when someone's up against an Islamist apologist like you, they have to realize it is no easy task for someone who's head is so firmly lodged in a gutter, you can't make him see light no matter how much effort you put in. Idiot!!

BTW, why don't you prove that Muslims were open to being ruled by Hindus and not the other way round? Why are you tucking your tail in between your legs and running away?

BTW, since many Muslims address each other and even others with the prefix mian, they must all be ill-bred morons, as per Anwaar mian's "culture".

Alekshyendra,

>> Anyone with an iota of common sense would understand what the implication of Chundrigar's statement was.

The ill-bred moron who thinks it is smart to call me Anwaar miya, does not seem to understand English. Let me explain to you in simple English what Chundrigar meant. Chundrigar told the MLAs that the British had no right to hand over the Muslims to a subject people over whom they had ruled 500 years. This was in 1946 when the agreement over con-federation had broken down and the British proceeded to let the Congress form a government by themselves even  when the Muslim League was boycotting it. Chundrigar was telling the British not  to try to reach a final settlement without the participation of the MuslimLleague. There is no implication in what he said that suggests that since Muslims ruled India before the British came in, India should be handed over to them (Muslims) when the British left. Your claiming to see such an implication is a malicious lie.

>> why don't you prove that Muslims were open to being ruled by Hindus and not the other way round?

Muslims, who then were 30% of the population of British India, were fighting for their security and wellbeing after the British left, just as Canadian French or the Lebanese Christians did and still do vigilantly and aggressively throughout their histories. For you to reduce this to "being ruled by Hindus" is sheer charlatanry.

Since I do not expect you to understand any of this, I shall not reply to your mindless babble any more.

Maharashtra is on high Red alert .Gujarat has beefed up the Security of its Refineries and vital installations as LeT's 26/11 type attacks are feared by the Security Agencies-TV news

LeT is the Terror Arm of the Pak Army-ISI headed by General Kayani .

Manmohan is still in India not gone yet on visit to Pakistan .
Pakistan Army sent the message crystal clear either vacate Siacain or be ready for another 26/11 .

Our Candlewalas a battery of them here is lurking in various shades will go on spinning oh no now General Kayani has become a good boy .Sayeed was bad but reformed now.But forgetting all the time that LeT Head Saeed is controlled by Pak Army and ISI its Terror Arm.
Interestingly General Kayani has succeeded in forcing USA to withdraw the bounty of 50 Million Dollars for Sayeed's Head.

Now the PROs will come with bogus explanations.spins and bhanebazzi -no no it is not so . Think of future Dostana etc etc .It is all Sanghi-Modi propaganda etc. Don't fall for it.Even if you are hit by bullet does not matter .Count the gains of Dostana and bhaichara .Think of future benefits .

'Kon Jeeta hein terri Zulf ko Ser honey tak ' Ghalib

5 Islamic Terrorists have entered Jamnagar Gujarat the Refinery City .High alert to save the Refineries is on .
Bhatinda Refinery is also under threat and under Security blanket.-TV News ( just heard ).
And we have been lectured by Secu frauds and Secu bogus writers that ;;;
Kayani is a man of peace.Hafiz Saeed has no power.Let us go to Islamabad on return Sadbhavna visit.Make Pakistan a business partner so that it does not foment Terror .Let us hand over Siachin to Pakistan .

If we have such well wishers who needs Lashkars,Kayanies, LeT etc .
Over to Mombatiwalas-Candlewalas and peace-nicks who have done more damage to us than the Islamic Terrorists sent by Pakistan.

Thanks to greatest back stabbers of India -Thelaka and VP Singh we are unable to purchase the Armaments.And thanks to Thelka Bhagats who routinely post Links from Thelka.