It was refreshing to see a realistic appraisal of Narendra Modi (Out, Damned Spot!, Apr 23). How 24/7 TV contributed to his demonisation has been brought out.
P.N.R. Krishnan, on e-mail
Unique in Nandy’s analysis of Modi’s psyche is the simplicity of expression and a roadmap for redemption.
Najid Hussain, Bear, US
Gujarat’s riots have been an easy stick for activists to beat Modi with. How come these guys don’t utter a word about the Srikrishna Commission?
Dipal Paresh, Ahmedabad
Modi will have to remain content with the ‘Most likely PM aspirant if he were not the best riot administrator’ tag.
Santosh John Samuel, Kochi
The horror of the riots aside, all-knowing Nandy smiles like a Cheshire cat.
A. Nathan, Dindigul
How about a separate mag for Modi-bashing?
Achutha Bhat, Bangalore
>>What’s the worse that could happen?
What worse could happen is that we may have to suffer more of your thoughtless and endless opinions.
>>Re Panchayati justice – if the court came out and said ‘we are allocating ownership of the land is this way because of public order’ then it would be straightforward.
If the court came out and said ‘we are allocating ownership of the land this way because of an itch in our posterior’ then that would be straightforward too. When a panchayat rules that the rapist and a victim should marry because they had sex, it is also straightforward but it is still panchayati judgment. Normally 5th graders have better logic to their arguments. How old are you Zafar?
>>It’s when the court wants to allocate ownership of land a certain way because of public order, but finds a bunch of other reasons to do what it wants, that it becomes Panchayati justice.
Till today you have not been able to establish ‘public order’ reasoning yet you shamelessly peddle it as gospel. Do you have an exclusive hotline to those judges’ minds?
>>Sort of like the discouragement of cow slaughter in our Constitution
Blah, blah bhah. You haven’t been able to defend your Ayodhya analogy and now you have created a new road to the directive principles of our Constitution. Are we going to get another fifty posts involving more mindless rants from you?
>>Lol! RSM, all that huffing and puffing and now you’re frightened of putting anything in case you might turn out to be wrong?
And you displayed a lot of courage when you chose to keep silent till the time the article was in the most read/commented section and decided to respond when it was moved out?
Dear Zafar, when somebody has been repeatedly saying that the answer is available in his earlier posts, he doesn’t do it because he fears things will turn out wrong! Please don’t project your cluelessness on everybody. The reason he chooses not to give the answer outright because he does not want to give that luxury to the person who seems to be downright lazy yet extremely opinionated, who tends to believe that it’s the job of others to provide answers while his only duty is to fill this forum with nothing but methane gas.
Rules for logical argument: When somebody says the judgment is based on XXX, the burden of proof is on him to prove that the judgment is based on XXX.
>>Disappointing, Sir. We’ve been disagreeing with each other for at least ten years here and there – take a chance and actually put something down.
Well, let’s see what I have put down so far. 1) Punctured the falsehood that the judgment was based on faith. 2) Refuted your belief that the judgment ruled on exact place where Ram was born. 3) Disproved your claim that parties to a dispute should be as old as the dispute itself! 4) Punctured your baseless assertion that bringing down of the dispute structure was not a prosecutable offence. 5) Smashed your claim that government attached land and that’s why Waqf’s case became time barred after six years.
After all this, you have the nerve to ask me to put something down? Zafar dear, can you at least pretend to be honest?
OTOH, you haven’t put anything down as yet. In fact whatever you contributed so far doesn’t even have enough weight to stay down, instead slowly rises in the air.
>>So you tell me: was Bilkis Bano raped because she was retaliating? Was Ehsan Jafri retaliating, when he was murdered? What about the people at Best Bakery – were they burned to death because they had retaliated against someone?
Your question would make sense if you Saurabh had said that in all these cases there was retaliation. Otherwise it is a pathetic case of creating a straw man.
>>Your points make zero sense when you take them from the abstract and try to apply them to actual events.
Your points make no sense period!
Lol! RSM, all that huffing and puffing and now you’re frightened of putting anything in case you might turn out to be wrong?
Disappointing, Sir. We’ve been disagreeing with each other for at least ten years here and there – take a chance and actually put something down. What’s the worse that could happen?
Re Panchayati justice – if the court came out and said ‘we are allocating ownership of the land is this way because of public order’ then it would be straightforward.
It’s when the court wants to allocate ownership of land a certain way because of public order, but finds a bunch of other reasons to do what it wants, that it becomes Panchayati justice.
Sort of like the discouragement of cow slaughter in our Constitution being allegedly in order to protect agricultural wealth of the country (never mind that maintaining old cows rather than killing them and replacing them with newer ones is a drain on the agricultural economy) and not for religious reasons “because we are a secular country”. That’s a very Panchayati outcome. That’s what I mean.
Regards
Saurabh
[ When you tell him that Retaliation is not Self Defence, he comes up with another gem:]
When you’re a Hindutvadi, all self defence by Muslims looks like retaliation. So you tell me: was Bilkis Bano raped because she was retaliating? Was Ehsan Jafri retaliating, when he was murdered? What about the people at Best Bakery – were they burned to death because they had retaliated against someone?
Your points make zero sense when you take them from the abstract and try to apply them to actual events.
>>{Tulsidas] does not mention ANY temple demolition let alone Ayodhya.
>>Touche
Now the logically challenged claim that there was NO temple demolition in India simply because Tulsidas fails to mention it in Ramcharitmanas.
Touche
it must be pointed out that the debate (?) on the merits and demerits of Ayodhya Judgment reveals something very interesting:
Mr. Nandy is getting jealous from Narendra Modi's supremacy & success...I want to personally invite Mr.Nandy to Gujarat and I will saw him the current condition of Gujarat..The safest state in India with wonderful Infrastructure ...I challenge mr.nandi that if he can find a single unsatisfied Muslim family or a Muslim family who thinks that they are not safe in Modi's Gujarat..Then I will give 100000 RS. to mr. nandi & that’s my open challenge to him.. The condition in Gujarat are totally different now infect I will say that these ten years are the most peas full years for the state...& all the credits goes to only & only Mr. Narendra Modi
The Gandhi dynasty, after the Sikh riots, has ensured great security for itself by apologising for the violence, because they know and understand the transience of power. >>>>>> Really???? When did Rajiv, Sonia, Rahul apologize - can we have links to some newspaper article to corroborate the claim?? Congress chamchas' apologies on behalf of the clan - just like putting a chaddar on behalf of the clan to please their votebanks - don't count as apology...
Dear Editor, Apropos Ashis Nandy’s ‘Out, Damned Spot’ (April 23, 2012). Mr.Nandy is miles away from the truth if he believes that Manmohan singh’s selection as a PM was an exercise of apology to the Sikh community. He was appointed by the family as a PM only because he will step down any time of the hour without any resistance. Say, one account was opened with instruction ‘any one of the four will operate the account’, Gujrat 2002 post Godhra riots are the only activity that the so called activists have in mind. For anti Sikh riots, had proper legal procedure followed impartially Mr. Rajiv Gandhi would have been living today.
>> It is my pleasure to invite everyone to read the novel "1984" and other essays by George Orwell
You have obviously not understood anything you've read. It is my pleasure to point that out to you.
Hope you shall understand this.
>> It is tiresome to see these discredited arguments being recycled again and again
Which is why I enjoy insulting these jehadis. When they lose their temper and make fools of themselves, it is even more amusing.
>> the secular historians; those that claimed under oath that they were no experts
It is my pleasure to invite everyone to read the novel "1984" and other essays by George Orwell. After reading and reflecting on the said books, their vocabulary will be enrichened to understand the meaning of "doublespeak". In the language of Newspeak practised by some on this forum, nuanced debates are not possible. If you think you have understood the meaning of doublespeak by googling it, you have missed the point entirely.
>>No body is disputing that. Not even clear that Babar constructed it. But was it constructed after demolishing an existing temple? Why Tulsidas makes no mention of it then?
It is tiresome to see these discredited arguments being recycled again and again. The reason Tulsidas makes no mention of it is because he was a poet whose Ramcharitmanas was an interpretation of Valmiki Ramayana. It was not a tourist guide to Ayodhya nor was Tulsidas making an attempt to record contemporary events of his time. Hence he does not mention ANY temple demolition let alone Ayodhya.
>> But was it constructed after demolishing an existing temple?
The courts, after examining all evidence, arrived at this conclusion.
If you disagree, go for an appeal. Don't make a fool of yourself on a public forum.
And the debate was not about the judgement, but about the secular historians; those that claimed under oath that they were no experts. As expected, you have kept your trap shut on that issue, trying to shift goal posts every time.
Sangeetha,
>> Is this being deliberately done to feed these discussions somewhere to prove something about "saffronites" ?
There is nothing about saffronites that is different from Muslim communalists or Christian evangelists or Jewish Zionists, so there is no need to get paranoid!
"From the seemingly endless list of articles found, it is quite clear that this site has been inhabited for many centuries. It seems certain that Babar did not construct his mosque on open land"
No body is disputing that. Not even clear that Babar constructed it. But was it constructed after demolishing an existing temple? Why Tulsidas makes no mention of it then?
>> No research journal would publish him?
Maybe research journals are publishing works of only those people whose only "expertise" is knowing that Babur was a 16th century ruler.
And BTW, in the link that YOU provided, the supposedly secular Outlook claims
You are so stupid that you cut your own nose to spite Lal.
...... "Pillar bases" were first discovered here by B.B. Lal, former director-general of the ASI, in 1975 as part of a project on the archaeology of the "Ramayana sites". He published his findings (with photographs) 15 years later in the rss magazine Manthan...... www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx Why in rss magazine? No research journal would publish him?
...... "Pillar bases" were first discovered here by B.B. Lal, former director-general of the ASI, in 1975 as part of a project on the archaeology of the "Ramayana sites". He published his findings (with photographs) 15 years later in the rss magazine Manthan......
www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx
Why in rss magazine? No research journal would publish him?
>> Thanks, Al, Irreverent, Maha and Sangeetha for saving me the trouble of providing links of our eminent historians getting their pants taken off in court.
No thanks to me for if. I just used the links provided by others.
Thanks guys. It was fun to read Swapan's masterful castration of these scoundrels.
>> I must make it clear that I am not a historian.
Neither am I. Irrelevant.
>> But anyone who has anything to do with academics can easily see that Mr.B.B.Lal has no great academic standing.
Like who?
>> How did he become ASI chief?
Don't know. If you have problems, bring them out.
>> Was his appointment free of controversies?
I don't know. There are controversies over so many appointments, including "eminent historians".
>> What is his standing internationally or among his peers?
You tell me.
>> Even in sciences forgery or falsification of data is not unknown and is not taken lightly at all. Forget wilful misrepresentation, even when people rush to press claiming to have made some momentous advance, the claim merely arising out of incompetence, they are taken to task. (Recent claims of faster than neutrinos being in point).
Oh you mean like some "eminent" historians, whom Shourie caught plagiarizing?
As for Lall, what are the false claims he made? Why are you or others not taking him to task for them?
>> Who is Mr.Swapan Dasgupta?
Ask him.
>> I could not find any article by him in EPW. Not even in The Hindu which still maintains some standards in these matters.
Ask him to try and publish in the publications you like. If he can't or doesn't want to, that's his or your problem.
>> He is in the tradition of likes of Girilal Jain and Chandan Mitra. Girilal Jain who wrote incendiary frontpage editorial in Times of India in the wake of Delhi pogrom and continued to spread venom throughout his life.
He might be the reincarnation of Goebbels. But is he lying?
>> What makes such people tick? I think it is the desire of someone without one iota of talent to be part of intelligentia.
Are you talking about him or yourself?
As I expected of you, a whole lot of frothing and oinking, and not a single intelligent statement. Worse, absolutely no honesty.
These idiots claimed under oath that they are idiots, and don't know the H of the History they claim to be experts on. The court thought they were idiots, and made a judgement based on available evidence.
You may disagree with the courts, and are free to appeal. You can also say that courts are not experts themselves, and can disagree with them.
But courts are experts at examining statements of witnesses; ones that claim that their "expertise" is based on newspaper reports, or they are giving their opinion about an ASI report without reading the report; if such morons are publishing in EPW, then EPW should close down.
^oops, ok, not more that two times
Thanks, Al, Irreverent, Maha and Sangeetha for saving me the trouble of providing links of our eminent historians getting their pants taken off in court. You see, you have a couple of people posting hot air here and when you question them, they demand evidence from you. Even when you provide evidence, they go back to asserting hot air. The example is questioning BB Lal’s credibility. The fact that HC directed ASI report corroborated BB Lal’s original findings should have spoken about his credibility. But they question his credentials on the basis claims of those historians who have been totally discredited in a court of law.
There is a poster here who has written reams without mentioning Modi even once. lol.
>> "You shall either dig a hole and hide in it, or start frothing at the mouth and oinking, throwing insults instead of backing your statement with any evidence or logic. My money is on the latter." Whats InaName
And you were so right.
I see a pattern in all the discussions on outlook blogs/forums - first goes the so-called "needling" following which come, sometimes, the emotional remarks. Is this being deliberately done to feed these discussions somewhere to prove something about "saffronites" ? :P
My god... modi - guj riots - godhra - ayodhya verdict - ayodhya .... !! Ok....
About Mr.BBLal..heres some info from wiki
B. B. Lal obtained his Masterís Degree in Sanskrit (including the Vedas) with a First Class First from Allahabad University, India. Dr. B. B. Lal has worked as an archaeologist for more than 50 years. He trained in excavation by a veteran archaeologist, Mortimer Wheeler at sites such as Taxila & Harappa, and other historical sites such as Sisupalgarh in Orissa. During 1950-52 he worked on archaeology of Mahabharata sites, including Hastinapura, the capital city of the Kurus. He made discoveries of many Painted Grey Ware (PGW) sites in the Indo-Gangetic Divide and upper Yamuna-Ganga doab (this last note is a little contentious with the "eminents"). Rest of it is here. Appreciate if any info is given reg the controversies about Mr.BBLal (not related to archelogy academic debates)
But with JNU and ICHR "eminents" thats altogether different; the academic standings and discourses have stooped all time low and touched rock bottom. Before moving further on to how AHC took on these worthies, Here is some info on ASI report
Now, coming to Honourable Sudhir Agarwal's notes on these worthies, if one got time, one can find them here
http://elegalix.allahabadhighcourt.in/elegalix/ayodhyafiles/honsaj-vol-6.pdf http://elegalix.allahabadhighcourt.in/elegalix/ayodhyafiles/honsaj-vol-7-corrected.pdf http://elegalix.allahabadhighcourt.in/elegalix/ayodhyafiles/honsaj-vol-15-corrected.pdf Some figures of the pillars can be found in
http://elegalix.allahabadhighcourt.in/elegalix/ayodhyafiles/honsaj-vol-21-corrected.pdf
If one were to read only relevant parts without reading the verdict ... here is a brilliant discussion on this
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5697&start=200
About the conversion/destruction of ancient/medieval structures some info can be found here. Well, we can start off with South India itself, but I think it will not be the right place to discuss this. But one thing I find interesting is the new insight into the planning of TajMahal. It may be out of place to see whats in it, but I think its definitely worth reading
D-39/216
Should read
(Recent claims of faster than light neutrinos being in point).
What makes them scholars ? What is their qualification ?
whatsinaname
I must make it clear that I am not a historian. But anyone who has anything to do with academics can easily see that Mr.B.B.Lal has no great academic standing. How did he become ASI chief? Was his appointment free of controversies? What is his standing internationally or among his peers? Even in sciences forgery or falsification of data is not unknown and is not taken lightly at all. Forget wilful misrepresentation, even when people rush to press claiming to have made some momentous advance, the claim merely arising out of incompetence, they are taken to task. (Recent claims of faster than neutrinos being in point).
Who is Mr.Swapan Dasgupta? I could not find any article by him in EPW. Not even in The Hindu which still maintains some standards in these matters. He is in the tradition of likes of Girilal Jain and Chandan Mitra. Girilal Jain who wrote incendiary frontpage editorial in Times of India in the wake of Delhi pogrom and continued to spread venom throughout his life. What makes such people tick? I think it is the desire of someone without one iota of talent to be part of intelligentia.
>> >> They have greater authenticity and integrity than the self-serving half-truths being served in this forum by saffronites
What half-truths?
These statements were made by "eminent historians" under oath. If these are half-truths, then either Swapan Das Gupta is lying. Or their eminences committed perjury to show themselves as uncouth and imbeciles. Which one of these is the case?
It would be foolish to accept any serious response from you. You shall either dig a hole and hide in it, or start frothing at the mouth and oinking, throwing insults instead of backing your statement with any evidence or logic.
My money is on the latter.
Zafar
>> Summary of said articles
As expected, scholarly response seems to mean recycling the same old shit. Not one comment about the supposed scholarship of these scoundrels, who accepted that they had not read the ASI report, visited the site, their knowledge was based on newspaper reports, all that they knew about Babur was that he was a 16th century ruler, or they had to take help of their father in law to understand some of the things they claimed scholarship on.
No wonder the resident jehadi loves you. You seem to be devoid of honor and honesty, just like him.
Saroja,
Thanks for the 5 summaries. They have greater authenticity and integrity than the self-serving half-truths being served in this forum by saffronites.
Summary of said articles
Idols in Law (11th December 2010) Gautam Patel The findings and orders of the special full bench of the Allahabad High Court on the successful Bhagwan Sri Ram suit and the dismissed Wakf Board suit demand close examination. Central to the final order are two findings – that the disputed site in Ayodhya is the birthplace of Ram, and that it is a juridical entity. Both conclusions are of extremely doubtful legal tenability. In addition, it is on the basis of the dubious legal proposition of faith and belief that the court arrives at a finding of legal and lawful ownership. The placing of idols in the disputed site in 1949 was as much an act of illegality as the events of 6 December 1992, but the court gingerly steps around them. In short, its September 2010 verdict surrenders judicial soundness and integrity for political expedience. Dissecting the Ayodhya Judgment (11th December 2010) Anupam Gupta Judged by the opinion of the two judges who constituted the real, as distinguished from the ostensible, majority of the three-member special full bench of the Allahabad High Court, the 30 September 2010 verdict in the Babri masjid title suits qualifies, in every sense, to be described as the judicial equivalent of the Ram janmabhoomi movement, which has had a highly “creative” character. Religious imagination and fervour have served to make up for a deficit of rationality, logic and historical evidence, with clerics turning into historians and judges becoming clerics. A close examination of the judgment shows much of it stands on flimsy legal grounds, and it would hardly be tenable if not supported by some very specious reasoning.
Secularism and the Indian Judiciary (11th December 2010) P A Sebastian The judgment of the Allahabad High Court of 30 September 2010 in the Babri masjid-Ram janmabhoomi case has put the final seal on the acts of installation of statues and demolition of the mosque. In accordance with our constitutional scheme one seeks remedial measures from the judiciary when the executive or even the legislature commits illegal acts. But what can one do when the judiciary itself commits unlawful acts? What is worse is that this verdict is the latest addition to a series of judgments by the highest courts in India which cast doubt on the secular character of the Indian judicial system. Issues of Faith (11th December 2010)
Kumkum Roy For those who have chosen to explore the implications of the Allahabad High Court’s verdict on the Ram janmabhoomi-Babri masjid dispute, one of the issues that have been particularly troubling is the question of faith. What is faith? What are the contexts in which it is invoked? And why are some of the implications of such invocations matters of concern? This paper focuses on the narrow perspective from which the richness and diversity of Hindu beliefs and practices have been represented in the verdict. Though many feel that the Ayodhya verdict has been successful in maintaining peace and harmony in turbulent times, what is distressing are the circuitous, even blatantly partisan, ways in which faith has been brought centre stage within legal discourse. Was There a Temple under the Babri Masjid?
Reading the Archaeological 'evidence'(11th December 2010) Supriya Varma , Jaya Menon As witnesses to a major part of the excavations carried out by the Archaeological Survey of India at the Ram janmabhoomi-Babri masjid site in Ayodhya in 2003, the authors detail the many irregularities and outdated methods they observed. They also refer to the objections they filed regarding some of the procedures followed by the asi, as well as the objections to its Final Report on the excavations. In several ways, it was obvious that the ASI was operating with a preconceived notion of discovering the remains of a temple beneath the demolished mosque, even selectively altering the evidence to suit its hypothesis. The authors stress that there is little doubt that the kind of archaeology practised by the statist ASI, where archaeologists see themselves primarily as bureaucrats, suffers from a serious absence of academic engagement and training.
For a review see lawandotherthings.blogspot.in/2010/12/idols-in-law.html
>> From the table of contents of the said issue
I don't know what's the point you are trying to make.
"Scholars" are free to debate the issue. Some believe that a temple existed, while others believe it didn't.
The courts obviously thought that the ones who said a temple existed made a stronger case. You may disagree with it, which is why, there is an appeals process.
But what justification is there for claiming scholarship, when all they know about the issue is from newspaper reports, or when they didn't even bother to visit the site, or read ASI reports? Is there anything in the table of contents or summary or article that justifies that, something which even the courts were compelled to comment upon?
>> You may need to be a subscriber to be able to access
Since I don't have any plans to subscribe, maybe you can inform us the "scholarly" response to the following statements by "scholars" who are also "eminent historians"
the professor, D. Mandal, another expert witness for the Waqf Board, admitted he wrote his Ayodhya: Archaeology After Demolition without even visiting Ayodhya and with an eye to the presidential reference to the Supreme Court. Mandal also admitted that “Whatsoever little knowledge I have of Babur is only that Babur was (a) ruler of the 16th century. Except for this I do not have any knowledge of Babur.” The judge, Agarwal, was sufficiently moved to say about Mandal that “the statements made by him in cross-examination show the shallowness of his knowledge on the subject”
or
Bhan confessed that the grandly titled Report to the Nation was written under “pressure” in six weeks and “without going through the record of the excavation by B.B. Lal”
Suvira Jaiswal, another Waqf Board expert historian, confessed: “I have read nothing about Babri Mosque… Whatever knowledge I gained with respect to the disputed site was on the basis of newspapers or… from the report of historians.”
Sushil Shrivastava, a “historian” whose bizarre book on Ayodhya secured favourable media publicity and is still cited approvingly by CPI(M)’s Sitaram Yechury, admitted he had “very little knowledge of history”, didn’t know Arabic, Persian, epigraphy or calligraphy and had got translations done by his father-in-law.
Suvira Jaiswal made an important clarification: “I am giving statement on oath regarding Babri Mosque without any probe and not on the basis of my knowledge; rather I am giving the statement on the basis of my opinion.”
From the table of contents of the said issue
SPECIAL THEMES
Was There a Temple under the Babri Masjid? Reading the Archaeological ‘Evidence’ Supriya Varma , Jaya Menon
Issues of Faith Kumkum Roy
Dissecting the Ayodhya Judgment Anupam Gupta
Secularism and the Indian Judiciary P A Sebastian
Idols in Law Gautam Patel
You can access a summary of each article from EPW site.
The irreverent Indian & whatsinaname >>Don't know about others, but the link takes me to a blank page. The issue of Economic and Political Weekly in question is Issue : VOL 45 No. 50 December 11 - December 17, 2010 You may need to be a subscriber to be able to access.
>> Don't know about others, but the link takes me to a blank page
Me too. But not surprising, given that our "scholars" are also blank.
>> "Let me link you to a special issue from a scholarly journal." - R Saroja
Don't know about others, but the link takes me to a blank page.
MAHA and THE IRREVERENT INDIAN >> www.telegraphindia.com/1101015/jsp/opinion/story_13057334.jsp
Thank you for the link. Let me link you to a special issue from a scholarly journal.
epw.in/epw/user/themeDetails.jsp
RSM>>The frauds of eminent historians were exposed and the court shamed them in public during the Ayodhya hearings.
Give me the details please"
It has been discussed here and all the details are there in public domain. Simple googling will give u all the information. Here is one link from article of Swapan Dasgupta. He lists in detail the testimony of some of these eminent historians who appeared as expert witness in court.
http://www.telegraphindia.com/1101015/jsp/opinion/story_13057334.jsp
The shallowness of these historians is breathtaking. No wonder, they cannot get any verdict in their favour. The only thing, they can do, is bitch and moan about the verdict.
>> RSM: The frauds of eminent historians were exposed and the court shamed them in public during the Ayodhya hearings. >> R Saroja: Give me the details please
It is easily available on the internet. The court over-ruled the statements of these lousy historians and instructed the ASI to dig at the site. The ASI found evidences of a "massive Hindu religious building". And, this is what got captured in the verdict as stinging remark on the Romila Thapar gang:
"surprised to see in the zeal of helping… the parties in whose favour they were appearing, these witnesses went ahead… and wrote a totally new story"
www.telegraphindia.com/1101015/jsp/opinion/story_13057334.jsp
I dare wrote some time ago that if Narendra Modi has any aspirational agenda that could propel him to the national stage and possibly stake a claim to the PM's or even a key cabinet post in Delhi - if his party lets him - then he has to get rid of the his exclusive demeanor and image that over a long career in politics he has earned for himself. After all the breed that he inherited as an RSS Pracharak not only frightens the Muslims and Christians in India - in addition to providing ready fodder for fundamentalists both inside and across the border - but is also abhorrent and distasteful to most liberal minded Hindus for it maligns and denigrates the very soul of the Dharma inherent in Hinduism.
Ashish Nandy is right to accolade AB Vajpayee as one of the great PM that India had and that it was mainly due to his inclusive persona and the political culture he tried to cultivate in his BJP away from the clutches of RSS, for India has to take certain pride in the fact that it has a Muslim population bigger than Pakistan which has systematically decimated its own minorities since its creation. Has it helped its cause ?
Yes, Narendra Bhai this is a sound advice for you and RSS ideologues in your party ... walk bare feet on Rajputana sands and offer your prayers at the Khwaja Chisti of Ajmer Sharif like that great emperor Akbar that India had in the last millenium ... he was awarded with his heir apparent, a crown prince ... you never know what you might get ...
If riots are happened in BJP rule state then it is genoside and all pseudo secular brigade come out from their cocoon to write about it but if these happen in Congress rule than they are even called riots but some mischief by TWO GROUPS and that's it.All pseudo secular brigade goes back to their cocoon like nothing happen.This is what happening in India when these pseudu secular goons control large part of medias.
Give me the details please
It is easier to spread poison than it is to spread goodwill.' Faruki
Sir -Charity begins at home .Let us see some good will for a change now.
>>My understanding was the the waqf lost title because it did not contest the issue within six years of the Govt attaching the land in 1949.
The government didn’t attach land. The waqf filed a declaration suit instead of a title suit hence it became time barred six years from date of magistrate attaching the property.
>>Is that true or not? If not, why did they lose title?
They lost because they were stupid.
>>[title is not the only basis for determining ownership.] >>What else is? Don’t hint. If you know, tell me what they used in this judgement.
So you have been writing pages after pages without knowing what they used in the judgment? And now I have to tell you again? Come on, you may be lazy enough to read 8000 pages, but at least take the effort to go through my previous posts.
>>If the court openly ruled based on peace and public order then it would not be panchayati justice, imho.
This is a massive somersault but not surprising given your style of discourse. This is what you said in the earlier post:
“I understand the peace and public order reasoning, which is why I agree with people who say that this is panchayati justice – which is not in and of itself a bad thing”
So now, if the court gave a dubious peace and public order reasoning, it would NOT be panchayati justice iyho?? Are you under the impression that you are debating with toddlers?
>>The court was asked to decide contested ownership. Instead of doing so it responded by dividing the property into three portions (a division none of the petitioners had requested) and giving each of the petitioners one portion. How is this not panchayati justice?
And if court ruled on basis of peace and public order (which neither parties requested, nor would it have anything to do with the case at hand) as per your opinion, it would not be panchayati justice? Thank god we don’t have you anywhere close to our legal system otherwise we would be having kangaroo justice!
>>Why don’t you share your facts, then?
After so many posts of mine, you still want me to share facts. Till now you have given no indication that you know the difference between facts and opinion.
It's a Congress friendly Opinion....
>> 170 response to this same old rant is the reason why these recycled articles get published in outlook regularly.
Lol
Moreover why they are enacting the drama of removing the posts.
>> >> It is easier to spread poison than it is to spread goodwill
Which is why Congress has been more successful than BJP in politics.
[So who else considers using "self defence" in place of "retaliation" an exchange of views?]
If you’re a hammer, everything looks like a nail. Which was pretty rough on Muslims in Gujarat post-Godhra.
Okay RSM, let’s start with the basics.
First point
[The waqf’s case was dismissed because it was time barred! So it had NO LEGAL TITLE!] [Ji, because the land was attached by the Govt in 1949.] [No not because of that.]
My understanding was the the waqf lost title because it did not contest the issue within six years of the Govt attaching the land in 1949.
Is that true or not? If not, why did they lose title?
[title is not the only basis for determining ownership.]
What else is? Don’t hint. If you know, tell me what they used in this judgement.
[You call this panchayati justice because of peace and public order reasoning. But you don’t feel it necessary to establish whether the court used peace and public order as a justification. ]
If the court openly ruled based on peace and public order then it would not be panchayati justice, imho.
The court was asked to decide contested ownership. Instead of doing so it responded by dividing the property into three portions (a division none of the petitioners had requested) and giving each of the petitioners one portion. How is this not panchayati justice?
[Dear Zafar, in all your posts you have only opinions, but not one fact.]
Why don’t you share your facts, then? You could start with the two points above.
Zafar Bhai,
I am done on this one. There is enough in my responses and your responses below, that anybody with average IQ can make out the Truth.
Thanks.
So as per Mr Zafar,
Indira Gandhi government had done such fantastic work that her party would have won 500 seats, unfortunately the anti Sikh Pogrom brought it down to 400.
Truth does not matter. Period.
Actually, I would say that Delhi stopped in 3 days because the administration of the time didn’t gain politically from the pogrom continuing. The pogrom lost the Congress votes, without it the landslide would have been larger.
Yes and pigs flew and fishes ran and horses slithered over the wall.
Yes yes, Good Exchange of Views.
ZAFAR
>>At least Sajjan Kumar went to court. Why is Modi avoiding facing his accusers in court? Why is he above the law?
More brilliance from Zafar Bhai, Modi is avoiding facing his accusers in court, Unlike Sajjan Kumar!!!
Exchange of Views!
[Your problems are evident]
Vulgar abuse is the refuge of people who have run out of arguments. Let’s stay above that, please.
[You claimed that Delhi stopped in 3 days, but not Guajrat, because the administration didn't want to. Right? ]
In Gujarat the situation was different – the violence and polarisation gained Modi votes - and the administration therefore allowed the pogrom to continue for much longer. Frankly if the administration had wanted to, it could have stopped the violence much sooner – in fact it could have prevented it. (Just as it could have been prevented in Delhi.)
[ Indira Gandhi was NOT KILLED by Sikhs in Response to the 3-day pogrom and it was actually the reverse]
That’s true. (It is good manners to acknowledge these things, right?) But Indira Gandhi’s assassination did not take place in a historical vacuum. Rather it, and the pogrom, are a part of a continuum of events that started with Congress promoting Bhindranwale, growing Skih militancy in Punjab, growing violence (there were times when 200 people a week were being killed in Punjab), endless massacres of innocents (like Hindus dragged off a bus at Muktsar and shot – for being Hindu), Operation Blue Star, the excesses of the counter-insurgency, bombs left on buses in Delhi (often hidden inside children’s toys or in transistor radios), etc. etc. etc.
DESPITE this poisonous background, the administration stopped the pogrom after three days. It was able to, and it did.
People keep pointing out that the Gujarat violence also took place in a historical context - preceding the Godhra atrocity and stretching back to earlier riots and historical events. (Partition. Prithviraj chauhan. Etc.) – as if that is some sort of excuse. ALL communal violence has a historical context.
I am not convinced that the context was so much more powerful in Gujarat that the administration was unable to control spontaneous but somehow coordinated violence headed by the other parts of the Sangh Parivar. I think it was a combination of the Parivar having multiple nodes of authority (so why should VHP and Bajrang Dal listen to BJP immediately, is it in their interest to always do so?), the BJP being reluctant to act against other members of the Parivar and the BJP being corrupted by the electoral windfall the violence and polarisation were reaping for it.
So who else considers using "self defence" in place of "retaliation" an exchange of views?
RSM
>> ........are based on half truths, factual errors, falsehoods, hot air and more opinions. When pointed out, you create a diversion and bring in other opinions. You see, the responsibility of sticking to facts here is not only mine.
Precisely the problem.
>>Would they have been wrong to defend themselves? Would innocent people defending themselves be a valid cause for the pogrom to continue?
Ok, let me enrich you with some "Exchange of Views" : For the world at large, Retaliatiory Action and Self Defence are different things. Enriched now?
The frauds of eminent historians were exposed and the court shamed them in public during the Ayodhya hearings. Yet we are given links to their books to get our facts right.
>>Ji, because the land was attached by the Govt in 1949.
No not because of that. Is there anything you have posted here which is based on facts?
>>So if the Waqf’s title lapsed because of the time elapsed between 1949 and 1960 (61?), how come earlier ownership also didn’t lapse? As argued here: >>And how come, if the waqf had no title at all to the land any more, they were still awarded a third of it? >>The Nirmohi Akhada’s title was deemed to have lapsed as well. So how come they were also allotted a third of the land?
The answer has been given by me earlier. It is also available in the court judgment which you are too lazy to read and want me to spell it out for you. I will still give you a hint – title is not the only basis for determining ownership.
>>These are honest questions – you imply that you understand the law (and that I don’t), so please explain the legal reasoning behind these decisions. Can you?
These are frivolous questions. They arise out of a mind which is lazy and is made to believe in perpetual victimhood.
>>I understand the peace and public order reasoning, which is why I agree with people who say that this is panchayati justice – which is not in and of itself a bad thing.
This is representative of all you posts. You call this panchayati justice because of peace and public order reasoning. But you don’t feel it necessary to establish whether the court used peace and public order as a justification. Hence you have an opinion based on an assumption. The truth is like all other seculars, this judgment was not to your liking.
>>I also do not care much for that mosque, and would not give one rupee to rebuild it – what bugs me is the pretence that pure justice was done, and the apparent readiness to tear up title in order to meet political objectives. Because precedent.
Dear Zafar, in all your posts you have only opinions, but not one fact. You meander endlessly about eggshells and yolks on the basis of those opinions which are based on half truths, factual errors, falsehoods, hot air and more opinions. When pointed out, you create a diversion and bring in other opinions. You see, the responsibility of sticking to facts here is not only mine. When are you going to start contributing?
Your problems are evident. Its not just absence of logic , it is an outright rejection of logic.
I am sure you remember, nevertheless let me recapitulate:
You claimed that Delhi stopped in 3 days, but not Guajarat, because the administration didn't want to. Right?
The quality of "Exchange of VIEWS" is eveident when you have to reminded about something as obvious as that: Indira Gandhi was NOT KILLED by Sikhs in Response to the 3-day pogrom and it was actually the reverse!
Jaykumar, Ahmadabad, India>> Sorry to disappoint you, but I am not your old friend, Mr. Ganapathy. I am Marudhamuthu Radhakrishnan living at Maraimalai Nagar, near Chennai.
Anwaar >> It is easier to spread poison than it is to spread goodwill.
As we say in physics, entropy which is a measure of disorder in a system always increases.
But that is true only of closed systems. Life requires openness and not thermodynamic equilibrium...
,,, birth anniversary of Hitler.
Here is a link for what Sreekumar has to say
www.newzfirst.com/web/guest/full-story/-/asset_publisher/Qd8l/content/sit-clean-chit-is-wrong-dgp-told-me-modi-said-let-muslims-die
Get facts right on RJB issue. Here is a link to a book written by eminent historians and social scientists as the issue was played out.
books.google.co.in/books/about/Anatomy_of_a_confrontation.html
More on Saffron brigade
books.google.co.in/books
Today marks birth anniversary. In 10 days we shall mark his death anniversary
Saurabhji
[concerned citizens may have to think of “other ways” to save the unsuspecting chaps.]
And I’m sure we are all very grateful to you!
[I neither bring up Gujarat nor Kashmir]
But you *did* bring up Kashmir, and that *only* in response to a discussion about Modi and Gujarat. So what do you think that says about you?
Note: if you have something accurate to say about Kashmir that is not an attempt to use it as an excuse for murder elsewhere in India, I will probably not dispute it.
[Live example, I said the violence stopped in 3 days at Delhi because there was no Sikh retailation.] [And what's your reply? Except Indira Gandhi!! The three days started after Indira Gandhi's death.]
Fair call Saurabh, but the Sikhs who were killed in Delhi were complete innocents. They had not killed Indira Gandhi and the vast majority of them even had nothing to do with the many Hindu deaths caused by militancy in the Punjab. They were innocents.
You’re saying the pogrom came to halt in three days because these innocent people didn’t defend themselves from being killed?
Would they have been wrong to defend themselves? Would innocent people defending themselves be a valid cause for the pogrom to continue?
[and you want us to pretend that this is an exchange of "VIEWS"]
I’m actually interested in hearing your view on this.
@ RSM
Aap bahut jaldi garam ho jaate hain bhai. Sabar se.
[The waqf’s case was dismissed because it was time barred! So it had NO LEGAL TITLE!]
Ji, because the land was attached by the Govt in 1949. So if the Waqf’s title lapsed because of the time elapsed between 1949 and 1960 (61?), how come earlier ownership also didn’t lapse? As argued here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayodhya_debate
“In 1885, Mahant Raghubar Ram moved the courts for permission to erect a temple just outside the Babri Mosque premises. Despite validating the claim of the petitioner, the Faizabad District Judge dismissed the case, citing the passage of time.[24] On 18 March 1886, the judge passed an order in which he wrote:
“I visited the land in dispute yesterday in the presence of all parties. I found that the Masjid built by Emperor Babur stands on the border of Ayodhya, that is to say, to the west and south it is clear of habitations. It is most unfortunate that a Masjid should have been built on land specially held sacred by the Hindus, but as that event occurred 356 years ago, it is too late now to agree with the grievances. (Court verdict by Col. F.E.A. Chamier, District Judge, Faizabad (1886)[25]”
And how come, if the waqf had no title at all to the land any more, they were still awarded a third of it?
The Nirmohi Akhada’s title was deemed to have lapsed as well. So how come they were also allotted a third of the land?
These are honest questions – you imply that you understand the law (and that I don’t), so please explain the legal reasoning behind these decisions. Can you?
I understand the peace and public order reasoning, which is why I agree with people who say that this is panchayati justice – which is not in and of itself a bad thing.
I also do not care much for that mosque, and would not give one rupee to rebuild it – what bugs me is the pretence that pure justice was done, and the apparent readiness to tear up title in order to meet political objectives. Because precedent.
Alakshyendra
These three gentlemen are not perfect, but they have managed to rule their states and provide a decent administration *without* demonising a particular group in society for their political gain. Hence, imho, their relatively broad based appeal and general acceptability. Fwiw think Nitish would make an excellent PM.
Ghai,
>> Majority of the Gujarties feel otherwise.
It is easier to spread poison than it is to spread goodwill.
170 response to this same old rant is the reason why these recycled articles get published in outlook regularly.
As a Gujarati, I shall always speak up against the evil spell under which Gujarat has fallen.' Faruki
Majority of the Gujarties feel otherwise .In Democracy the people matter not individuals.
Anyway your hate Modi propaganda is flawed and lacks facts because compartively Modi had done whatever he could do to stem riots.But your Secu akas record is extremely horrible .To comment on that you all develop very cold feet .
Hence your rants lack logic and conviction .They are more politically motivated than factually correct .Hence none takes these seriously .
Many Ashish Nandis tried to finsih Narendra Modi But Modi will be rising further.. Tenthousnad Ashih Nandis can not move a fingre of Narendra Modi.Modi is Arivira Bhayankara.
Zafar;
Live example, I said the violence stopped in 3 days at Delhi because there was no Sikh retailation.
And what's your reply? Except Indira Gandhi!! The three days started after Indira Gandhi's death.
and you want us to pretend that this is an exchange of "VIEWS"
>>Indeed. And what does that make someone who only brings up the Pandits when trying defend the Gujarat pogrom and Modi, but never mentions them at any other time?
I neither bring up Gujarat nor Kashmir, nor do most of the other people, who bring up Kashmir.
We all know who does and who must answer his hypocricy.
>>Nobody is made to respond to my comments .......
Applying “Exceptions” as the General Rule might sound like “views” to you, not so with average human beings.
This is not about “Disagreement “, this is about being Clueless: deliberately or naturally may be a subject of disagreement.
Now its possible that some people respond to you for the reasons you imagine, but rest assured that often, people are “forced to respond” and here is why:
A shopping mall is a regulated place, it has a law enforcement mechanism, so you can’t go there and start selling anything you like, for e.g. Mr Z can’t sell human eyes gouged from bodies of dead people, as some kind of jewelry.
On forums like these, enforcement is limited to things like abuse, hate, personalized insults etc, i. e. largely the “visible packaging” the “content” is beyond their purview, because of Free speech rights.
Compare this with shopping mall analogy, If law enforcement at the mall were limited to “visible packaging” alone, then ordinary, but concerned citizens would try to convince Mr Z, to stop selling those eyes. If Mr Z refuses, then those concerned citizens may have to think of “other ways” to save the unsuspecting chaps.
Leaving counter comments, here is one of those ways.
Mr Z though is unlikely to see the point.
[Arguably] all these things. But the fact is that the place was used as a mosque for several hundred years. This use was forcibly stopped. And then the place was torn down.
The fact is that the place was used as a temple prior to being demolished and used as a mosque. And it is also a fact that it was used as a temple since 1949. So what?? Stop picking and choosing facts.
>>You go on and on about Babar breaking temples, but you have nothing to say about people breaking mosques? Do you base your position on morality or on tribalism?
I didn’t go on and on about anything. Just don’t bring in your hallucinations into the argument. We are discussing the legal case so stick to the point.
>>(You also say that there is a separate criminal case going on about breaking down the mosque. But if it was not a mosque, then what is that criminal case about?
The criminal case is about the bringing down of disputed structure. You know, just because a structure is disputed, it doesn’t give the right to individuals to bring it down. This is common sense but I still have to take efforts and explain because you are obsessed with the ‘mosque’.
>>Does not the fact that the mosque was destroyed make it POSSIBLE for the court to divide the land – something they would not do if the mosque was standing.
Again the disease you suffer from – mixing fact with opinion. What they would or wouldn’t do is your opinion. Your mental make-up is such that it’s just beyond you to understand that legal judgments are given on facts not on convenience.
>>So I think it’s not true to try and say that the cases are unrelated and that the outcomes of one will not impact on the other.)
Your thoughts and opinions are irrelevant.
>>What I’m saying is that these don’t, or shouldn’t, negate legal title in our legal system (continuing on from the Raj) which the Babri Masjid waqf had, and which the court refused to acknowledge.
Bullshit! The waqf’s case was dismissed because it was time barred! So it had NO LEGAL TITLE! Your grievance does not constitute evidence.
>>You can’t put a yolk back into an eggshell by ignoring the fact that the egg was at some point broken, can you? But that seems to be what the judgement has to some extent done by ignoring the Waqf’s title – though allocating them a third of the land anyway - if their title was invalid, why did they get a third of the land? If valid why not all the land?
It is clear you have not bothered to read the judgment and you are meandering endlessly here with your alleged grievance. That’s not how the law works.
>>Hence panchayati justice – possibly exactly what the country needed, but not fully satisfying for anybody. Which is where I think the similarity with the outcome re Modi’s guilt lies.
Panchayati justice was a term used by idiots on TV on the day of the verdict without having read a single word of the judgment. Now I see where you get your inspiration from.
>>Modi is unlikely to get a clean chit. He is equally unlikely to be prosecuted. The end result will lie in between – and perhaps that is the kind of justice that the country is able, as a whole, to stomach. Nobody will be completely satisfied, but few people will feel completely dissatisfied as well. And it will be appealed on up to the SC until hopefully people stop being so invested in either outcome. That’s what I think will happen. Jmho.
Yes all this it is just your opinion – it has no value in a debate unless you substantiate it. And all you do is form opinions on the basis of opinions.
>>Re the verdict addressing location of Ram’s birth – I may be wrong (it’s possible), but I think it was in the dissenting opinion (Sharma’s?).
The majority opinion is what matters. Dissenting opinion is irrelevant.
These 3 gentlemen have also provided great administration to their respective states compared to before they came in. And Gujarat is not the rest of India's envy for nothing. Some credit (actually a lot) goes to Modi too.
Zafar,
Chandrababu Naidu has several cases of corruption against him, in Nitish Kumar's Bihar, scribes have been harassed and political opponents bumped off and in Naveen Patnaik's Orissa, the governnment is meekly capitulating before Maoists. Or is it that you consider upholding Raj Dharma only when Muslims and their interests are protected?
Ghai bhai - you claim these figures are at which link? And what do corrupt waqfs have to do with Modi's responsibility for the Gujarat pogrom? Logic kahan hai?
[Show me one leader who follows "Raj Dharma" (whatever that is supposed to mean in today's times)?]
Here are three excellent Chief Ministers who, imho, uphold Raj Dharma:
Nitish Kumar, in Bihar
Patnaik, in Orissa
And Naidu (ex-CM, but still) in Andhra.
It's not like I'm asking for the impossible, these guys show that it can be done without a big tamasha. All of them are respected, and all of them are respected by all sections of society, whether they get their vote or not nobody thinks that they are evil or rotten.
And all three are even in the NDA, so 'your side' of politics. Why is it too much to expect Modi to live up to their standard?
[Do you really argue that Nehru supported and used communal violence for his political ends?] [Don’t throw the question back at me. You argued that supporting violent ideologies result in violence. ]
Arrey, Golwalkar specifically applauded Germany’s expression of race pride wrt making German Jews second class citizens. Did Nehru make a similar statement about with Stalin’s treatment political dissidents? I think you’ll find that he didn’t. In fairness, you should take that into account when looking at support for violent ideologies.
[Is there records of travellers, British gazetteers, Islamic court historians which show the existence of the temple preceding the existence of my house? Does archeological survey corroborate this?]
You go on and on about Babar breaking temples, but you have nothing to say about people breaking mosques? Do you base your position on morality or on tribalism?
(You also say that there is a separate criminal case going on about breaking down the mosque. But if it was not a mosque, then what is that criminal case about? Does not the fact that the mosque was destroyed make it POSSIBLE for the court to divide the land – something they would not do if the mosque was standing. So I think it’s not true to try and say that the cases are unrelated and that the outcomes of one will not impact on the other.)
Look, I’m not saying it was right to knock down any temples. I’m not saying that it wouldn’t have been best to let them move the mosque to build a temple. With the wisdom of hindsight both these things are obviously true.
What I’m saying is that these don’t, or shouldn’t, negate legal title in our legal system (continuing on from the Raj) which the Babri Masjid waqf had, and which the court refused to acknowledge. You can’t put a yolk back into an eggshell by ignoring the fact that the egg was at some point broken, can you? But that seems to be what the judgement has to some extent done by ignoring the Waqf’s title – though allocating them a third of the land anyway - if their title was invalid, why did they get a third of the land? If valid why not all the land?
Hence panchayati justice – possibly exactly what the country needed, but not fully satisfying for anybody. Which is where I think the similarity with the outcome re Modi’s guilt lies.
Modi is unlikely to get a clean chit. He is equally unlikely to be prosecuted. The end result will lie in between – and perhaps that is the kind of justice that the country is able, as a whole, to stomach. Nobody will be completely satisfied, but few people will feel completely dissatisfied as well. And it will be appealed on up to the SC until hopefully people stop being so invested in either outcome. That’s what I think will happen. Jmho.
Re the verdict addressing location of Ram’s birth – I may be wrong (it’s possible), but I think it was in the dissenting opinion (Sharma’s?).
Saurabhji,
Nobody is made to respond to my comments, they choose to do so. I am delighted that they want to speak with me, and exchange views. That is the point of this place, and to exchange views with someone who disagrees with you is often more intellectually enriching than chatting with someone who believes exactly what you do.
[In Delhi the violence ended within three days, in Gujarat it lasted for more than a month.] [Yes, but trust me, you don’t want to hear the Truth. But for those who are interested in knowing why so: the answer is that in 1984 pogrom, there was no such thing as Sikh Retaliation: not a single Hindu was killed]
Except for Indira Gandhi.
[AND no Hindu homes attacked then.]
I think you need to place that in the context of the insurgency in the Punjab where many many Hindu homes were attacked and many Hindus were attacked and killed. In fact over that period of ten years many more Hindus were attacked and killed in Punjab than you could possibly argue happened in Gujarat post-Godhra.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Victims_of_Terrorism_in_Indian_Punjab )
And yet – somehow – the Govt managed to stop the Delhi pogrom in three days. Your argument does not stand up.
[You are what you do most of the time]
Indeed. And what does that make someone who only brings up the Pandits when trying defend the Gujarat pogrom and Modi, but never mentions them at any other time?
you keep producing figures but fail to give a link to support them. Please come back with a link that supports your claimed figures, and we can discuss it then.' Zafar
That is the basic link discussed many times here. Search yourself sir.
How does it matter ? You will then produce some another link and like Faruki sahib will want to be discussed that forgetting and side tracking the new link given to you. Meanwhile I hope you have commented on Muslims' property scam .
[But the moral issue of upholding Raj Dharma remains.]
The CM is also a human being and has his/her failings. Against whom are you comparing Modi? Manmohan Singh? Under whose watch India has lost lakhs of crores through various scams? Against VP Singh? The man who brought the Mandal Commission into Indian politics? Rajiv Gandhi? Who nonchalantly said in response to the death of 4000 Sikhs that when a big tree falls, the earth shakes? Show me one leader who follows "Raj Dharma" (whatever that is supposed to mean in today's times)?
[Well, who wants us elsewhere in India? West Bengal talks a fine talk but exports people rather than imports them. In the end we need to earn our rozi roti like everybody else. And we are also Gujaratis, Gujarat’s economic success comes from our hard work and business instincts as well, we helped to build the State. Of course we are reluctant to leave it. Wouldn’t you be?]
Well, you're being drama queen here. It's not as if anyone is physically preventing Muslims from entering any state in the country. As for your reluctance, if you'd felt sufficiently threatened, regardless of what you're leaving behind, you'd still migrate, like the Kashmiri Pandits did. The fact is that Muslims still feel Gujarat is safe enough for them to stay back and not migrate to other places.
[[Kashmir: what happened to the Pandits was awful, but do you think it sets a fair bar above which everything is acceptable? I think not.]]
Well why should Gujarati Hindus be judged any different from the rest of Indians?
>>Re Kashmir: what happened to the Pandits was awful, but do you think it sets a fair bar above which everything is acceptable? I think not.
No. Never.
You are not, what you say while answering a question.
You are what you do most of the time, so going about your life, singing and dancing about justice for Gujarat, all the time vis-à-vis the prompt, “I Condemn” when question on Kashmir, does show, what exactly is unacceptable and what isn't.
Z: Disturbing that Golwalkar admired Nazi ideology which inevitably leads to violence
R: But then is it disturbing Nehru admired Stalinist ideology – which, using your logic, led to Congress sponsored violence?
Z: It is disturbing that Nehru gave us 5 year plans.
R: What about Congress violence?
Z: Are you saying Nehru supported Congress violence??
>> In Delhi the violence ended within three days, in Gujarat it lasted for more than a month.
Yes, but trust me, you don’t want to hear the Truth. But for those who are interested in knowing why so: the answer is that in 1984 pogrom, there was no such thing as Sikh Retaliation: not a single Hindu was killed AND no Hindu homes attacked then.
>>So by your logic if a crowd broke down your house, dug up the foundations and found the remains of an ancient temple there, the title deeds for your land would revert to the Ramjanmabhumi Nyas. What about if they found the remains of a mosque under the remains of your (illegally destroyed) home? Would the title deeds revert to BMAC?
Why are you so selective on facts? Is my house in dispute for 500 odd years? Is there records of travelers, British gazetteers, Islamic court historians which show the existence of the temple preceding the existence of my house? Does archeological survey corroborate this? If you want the property for BMAC, file a suit and prove the existence of the Mosque and also show it was continuously in dispute! Otherwise, like always, you are conveniently selective and comparing apples and oranges.
>>Both BMAC and Ramjanmabhumi Nyas, of course, are relatively recently formed organisations – your house, leave alone the ancient ruins beneath it, is/was about one hundred times their age.
That is irrelevant if parties are new. Show me the law which says the parties to the dispute should be as old as the dispute itself?
>>Please note that the destruction of your house, while illegal in any other circumstances, is now no longer a prosecutable offence because they found these ruins underneath it, causing title of land to go to one of these (recently formed) organisations.
Very poor analogy and devoid of facts - my house is disputed in the first place. The destruction of my house is a criminal case with is going on (your assertion of it not being a prosecutable offence is BS) and is independent of the original title suit.
>>Please also note, btw, that this means that your house was not really a house, no matter what you might have thought. Frankly you are lucky we don’t send you to jail yourself for building on land whose title was going to be awarded to one of these organisations.
Now you are going nuts!
>>On the contrary, it’s the court verdict that states that this was the site of Lord Ram’s birth, it doesn’t just state that this is a long standing belief.
It’s a judgment of about 8000 pages but you don’t seem to have read even one.
Judgment was majority with Sharma dissenting:
Khan: “That for a very long time till the construction of the Mosque it was TREATED/BELIEVED by Hindus that somewhere in a very large area of which premises in dispute is a very small part birth place of lord Ram was situated,
Agarwal: “Issue 19(a) (Suit-4)- It is held that the premises which is BELIEVED to be the birth place of Lord Rama continue to vest in the deity”
>>I am pointing out that it’s ludicrous for the courts to rule on where Ram was born.
As I pointed out, you have been swallowing secular propaganda.
>>They can rule on legal title – which is based on traditional possession and documentation (both concrete things that can be argued either way), but ruling on the specific spot where God was born is outside their competence.
They ruled on possession. You continue to display ignorance like a badge of honour.
>>Yes, I suppose that they’re different in that way. The similarity is that they both purport to address facts, but are actually dealing with (religious and political) belief.
No they are not. They are dealing with evidence.
[Convenient, you accredit Nehru only with five year plants, not with Congress violence?] >>Five year plans are bad enough. Do you really argue that Nehru supported and used communal violence for his political ends?
Don’t throw the question back at me. You argued that supporting violent ideologies result in violence.
Zafar Saheb
The only place where your kind of arguments can be made and people made to respond is places like Outlook Comment section.
In the real world, picking an “exception” and applying that as the Universal Rule would invite, laughter, ridicule and disdain depending upon where you are. In many places it will lead to your outright disqualification for further participation in any logical conversation. Why, you can also write long essays on why 2+2 is not really 4 (four), but actually a violation of human rights and still have people responding and Outlook can do nothing as long as you don’t use abusive words.
So learning to live by clutching at straws is a useful skill, but doing so at Outlook is not much help in real life.
[the difference between post Godhra India and post Kristallnacht Germany]
Some differences stem from the fact that Germany was an independent country, and Gujarat is just a state within India, and this limits the scope of its actions.
The official exclusion of Jews from many social and economic spheres in Germany at that time is reflected in the de facto exclusion of Muslims in Gujarat today – be that by way of Government bias or ‘unofficial’ social and economic boycott. That’s undeniable – if you’re being starved out by law or by unofficial boycott it makes little difference to the outcome for you, doesn’t it?
But I don’t think things are as bad In Gujarat as they were in Germany. I believe that most Gujarati Hindus don’t see Gujarat Muslims are foreigners – I think the ones who see Muslim areas as foreign ‘mini Pakistans’ is not a hard majority. But then let’s not forget that just a generation before the Holocaust German Jews were fully integrated in Prussian society, and fought in the country’s Army in WWI.
Re the difference between race and religion, Golwalkar was the one who wrote about the Hindu Race and the Foreign Races (meaning Muslims and Christians in India). Let’s not be dishonest in our argument, even if we disagree.
[For what Golwakar wrote, the father of the nation called negroes a shade better than animals. Do we need to apologize for that.]
If you call Golwalkar Guru, then yes, you might consider it. Just like all those people busy imitating the prophet need to explain themselves to women and children. And, probably, Hindus. I’m equal opportunity.
@Zafar>>Do you think that this feeling of being under attack is what made Hindus in Gujarat open to tolerating the Gujarat violence?
Yes.That is one reason. There are more. I will come back to it in a day or two.I find writing difficult. In context of what I am going to write it is also a responsibility. It is based on my experieces of living in Bombay during the RJB mobilization, 92-93 riots and my past based in Delhi
>> "Both BMAC and Ramjanmabhumi Nyas, of course, are relatively recently formed organisations – your house, leave alone the ancient ruins beneath it, is/was about one hundred times their age." - Zafar
Before you put your ignorance on the issue on public display, please apprise yourself of the case.
@YHWH >>Pease enlighten me about the difference between Race and Religion.
Refer to my posting www.outlookindia.com/feedbacks.aspx
http://www.outlookindia.com/feedbacks.aspx?typ=100&val=280461&source=web&commentid=382447#382447.
Are we having a debate between two sides, one claiming
"What's in a name? That which we call a rose By any other name would smell as sweet."
and the other declaiming
A rose is a rose is a rose is a rose...
while holding on to the corpse of thousands dead in Delhi ,Bombay or Gujarat. It is time to bury the dead and bring a closure. But there cannot be closure until there is a trial, guilt is established, guilty are named and punished. My reference to Nuremberg trials in my previous posting or all my previous postings is in this context.
[You really need to take a course in logic. The existence or otherwise of temple was key to establishing title. ]
So by your logic if a crowd broke down your house, dug up the foundations and found the remains of an ancient temple there, the title deeds for your land would revert to the Ramjanmabhumi Nyas. What about if they found the remains of a mosque under the remains of your (illegally destroyed) home? Would the title deeds revert to BMAC?
Both BMAC and Ramjanmabhumi Nyas, of course, are relatively recently formed organisations – your house, leave alone the ancient ruins beneath it, is/was about one hundred times their age.
Please note that the destruction of your house, while illegal in any other circumstances, is now no longer a prosecutable offence because they found these ruins underneath it, causing title of land to go to one of these (recently formed) organisations.
Please also note, btw, that this means that your house was not really a house, no matter what you might have thought. Frankly you are lucky we don’t send you to jail yourself for building on land whose title was going to be awarded to one of these organisations.
[You like all other secular propagandists are unable to see the difference between the fact that Ram was born there and the fact of a long standing belief that Ram was born there.]
On the contrary, it’s the court verdict that states that this was the site of Lord Ram’s birth, it doesn’t just state that this is a long standing belief.
[I know you are trying to be funny]
I am pointing out that it’s ludicrous for the courts to rule on where Ram was born. They can rule on legal title – which is based on traditional possession and documentation (both concrete things that can be argued either way), but ruling on the specific spot where God was born is outside their competence.
[It is absurd to find similarities between Ayodhya judgment and SIT/AC reports. SIT’s is an investigative report and AC’s is an opinion on it.]
Yes, I suppose that they’re different in that way. The similarity is that they both purport to address facts, but are actually dealing with (religious and political) belief. Which is why they both have a punt either way, and are both practically designed to be challenged in the courts until hopefully nobody cares very much about the outcome.
[Convenient, you accredit Nehru only with five year plants, not with Congress violence?]
Five year plans are bad enough. Do you really argue that Nehru supported and used communal violence for his political ends?
Ghai
[One link says after 3 months Riots erupted in one city so you now say the Riots were on for three Months?]
The link says that riots continued from mid March to mid June – a period of three months. The link does not say that these riots only happened in Ahmedabad or any other single city.
[So when nearly 15000 or 27000 Hindus were taken into preventive custody]
15,000? 27,000? Which figure are you claiming to be true? Are you aware that they are different figures?
[how can you say that Modi Govt supervised the Riots. Why should they arrested the trouble makers on preventive basis ??]
When were these arrests made? (ans: NOT the evening of the 27th, when the risk of violence breaking out was highest. Why not?)
How long did these preventative arrests last for? (One day? Two days? A month? answ: don’t know.)
Who, specifically, was arrested? Was it the right people? (Again: unclear.)
The point is, police in neighbouring, communally tense, states (like Maharashtra) made preventative arrests that worked – iow, that stopped violence from breaking out.
In Gujarat they didn’t bother to make these arrests rights away, and even after they did (when?) they don’t seem to have done a very good job of it, given the outcomes (almost a thousand dead, more than a lakh displaced, and many crores of business and property losses.)
[The figures are 367 Hindus killed in riots majority of them in Police firings Nearly 770 Muslism killed in Riots.
These are the Figures by Home Ministry of India]
Ghai – you keep producing figures but fail to give a link to support them. Please come back with a link that supports your claimed figures, and we can discuss it then.
[so in the end it all boils down to this: you are least concerned about courts, judiciary, democracy or even right or wrong.]
Actually, I am concerned more with right and wrong rather than primarily with the legal outcome. Maybe there will never be enough evidence to convict Modi. Fair enough. But the moral issue of upholding Raj Dharma remains.
That is why the issue continues to hold India’s attention, and it is not just Muslims who continue to think about it. The deeper issue of right actions vs wrong actions resonates with us as a nation. It’s a matter of nyay and duty.
[We've never seen any Muslim migration to a safer place from places ruled by the Sangh Parivar, not even from Gujarat, the state where Muslims were subjected to a "genocide". ]
Well, who wants us elsewhere in India? West Bengal talks a fine talk but exports people rather than imports them. In the end we need to earn our rozi roti like everybody else. And we are also Gujaratis, Gujarat’s economic success comes from our hard work and business instincts as well, we helped to build the State. Of course we are reluctant to leave it. Wouldn’t you be?
Re Kashmir: what happened to the Pandits was awful, but do you think it sets a fair bar above which everything is acceptable? I think not.
These are the Figures by Home Ministry of India under Chidambram
amended
>>Don’t you think it’s disturbing that Nehru stuck us with those damn five year plans, even after it became clear that they were impoverishing the Soviet Union?
Convenient, you accredit Nehru only with five year plants, not with Congress violence?
>>So how come wherever the Sangh Parivar is in power the minorities live terrified lives? Coincidence, or a systemic result of the Parivar’s social and political philosophy?
It is sad that those who say “we are all entitled to our own opinion, but we aren't entitled to our own facts” regularly confuse between facts and opinion.
>>The original case was about legal ownership of the land, not about whether there was a temple there or not, and certainly not about the specific spot where Ram was born - which the judgement also happened to find the time to address.
You really need to take a course in logic. The existence or otherwise of temple was key to establishing title. You think the judges were idiots to ask ASI investigate the site? Similarly the long standing belief of Ram being born there was important to the issue of title. You like all other secular propagandists are unable to see the difference between the fact that Ram was born there and the fact of a long standing belief that Ram was born there.
>>(I am sure that I am not alone in eagerly awaiting our judiciary’s findings on the Virgin Birth, the missing verses of Koran and sundry other theological issues that catch their fancy.)
I know you are trying to be funny but it isn’t working.
>>You see my point?
You see, you didn’t make any point. IT is absurd to find similarities between Ayodhya judgment and SIT/AC reports. SIT’s is an investigative report and AC’s is an opinion on it. If you want to find criminal culpability, it has to be done on evidence, not on ‘practicality’ or by pleasing Muslim community!
'Deaths by police firing: 170 (45% Hindu, 55% Muslim)
Frankly perplexing. If Muslims in the State are being killed at a ratio of 8 to every 2 Hindus killed, then why would the police open fire on these same Muslims at a ratio of 55 to every 45 Hindus fired upon.'
Zafar sahib
The figures are 367 Hindus killed in riots majority of them in Police firings
Nearly 770 Muslism killed in Riots.
These are the Figures by Home Ministry of India under Parnab .The figure sof riots were finally revised to about 1250 or so.I think Home Ministery revised the figures to nearly 850 Muslism killed .
Even those were used to be cited by Mr Faruki at times (if he has not shifted to your figures by now.)
Now you can play around and feel happy if some link gives 45 % Hindus and 55 % Muslims killed in Police firing.But will not beacceptable .
There are many links right from ISI supporters,from pakis',by the Sanghis,by the Muslim Tanzeems ,Western media Reports and so on.
Best will be follow the Indian Media who may exaggerate to some extent being biased against Modi but will remain with in the limits.
Boss we can't go on discussing your figures of any Link and every link every time.
You are free to feel happy with your figures.
One link says afterb 3 months Riots erupted in one city so you now say the Riots were on for three Months ?
Any way not other site or link or any Media all of which are against Modi have said the Riots went on & on for three months.
regarding arrests of Hindus and Mus.lims : there are two figure sof arrests made .
So when nearly 15000 or 27000 Hindus were taken into preventive custody how can you say that Modi Govt supervised the Riots.Why should they arrested the trouble makers on preventive basis ??
But I must admit that you have made up your mind to see the facts as you want and not as they are or could be.
Welcome younger Faruki 2 !
R Saroja 124/D-51
Pease enlighten me about the difference between Race and Religion. As per Nazis, the humans were divided into different races with a hierarchy. The Hindutva leaders say that most of Indian Muslims are Hindu coverts of Islam. This means they are of the same race. This means that there will be no Geno(Race) Cide(killer) in India.
<<Kristallnacht marked the beginning of Holocaust>>
Though I have reservations about it, first concentration camp Dachau (1933) and Nuremberg (1935) the reasons for apprehensions. Just for a moment I believe it was, Fuerer was sleeping with Eva Braun all through, the difference between post Godhra India and post Kristallnacht Germany are visible to blind.
Copy paste from Oxford History:
On November 12, 1938, Field Marshall Hermann Göring convened a meeting of Nazi officials to discuss the damage to the German economy from pogroms. The Jewish community was fined one billion Reichsmarks. Moreover, Jews were made responsible for cleaning up the damage. German Jews, but not foreign Jews, were barred from collecting insurance. In addition, Jews were soon denied entry to theatres, forced to travel in separate compartments on trains, and excluded from German schools.
In last 10 years after Godhra, I see two international cricketers from Gujarat, Pathan brothers, while in Germany, Jews were barred from participating in 1936 olympics, Dawoodi Bohra community among one of the richest in Gujarat, the richest Muslim enterpprenuer in the world, a Gujarati Muslim Azim Premji, Germany was no longer a democracy in less than year after Hitler became Chancellor, Gujarat continues to be a democracy.
For what Golwakar wrote, the father of the nation called negroes a shade better than animals. Do we need to apologize for that. Or how about Bose, Chamberlain, Roosevelt, Pope Pius, or again Gandhi with his effusive letter to Fuhrer finding virtues in Hitlers love for fatherland.
Either you have no idea what Holocaust was, how Nazis used Race for committing unparalled crimes in human history or you are here to use strawman fallacy to prove everything.
Ashish Nandi is not an admirer of Modi. and will not be happy if Modi becomes the PM. Is advising Modi to apologise, a trap to avoid him from becoming a PM?
[[Making a fact very hard to prove does not make that fact change, or go away. It might make it easier for those responsible for that fact to get away with their behaviour wrt legalities. But the fact itself remains.]]
OK, so in the end it all boils down to this: you are least concerned about courts, judiciary, democracy or even right or wrong. All that matters is what you think is the "fact". As Bandookwala famously said (I'm paraphrasing of course) the courts can go to hell, we know sure as hell that Modi is guilty and nothing less than that will satisfy us.
[[So how come wherever the Sangh Parivar is in power the minorities live terrified lives? Coincidence, or a systemic result of the Parivar’s social and political philosophy?]]
This is just your opinion and not borne out of any kind of evidence. The Pandits were terrified enough to leave behind their wealth and flee to what they thought were safer places for them to live, so much so that you hardly find any trace of Pandits in the valley. We've never seen any Muslim migration to a safer place from places ruled by the Sangh Parivar, not even from Gujarat, the state where Muslims were subjected to a "genocide". If you have any evidence, please share it with us.
As you said in an earlier post, you are entitled to your opinions, but not to facts.
"You can bring up Muslim majority countries left and right, but what has that got to do with the price of tea in China?"
Arrrre wah, miyan!! Jiyo!!
@ R Saroja
In that case I’m mistaken. But there is a widespread feeling among Muslims in Bombay that those bombings of the stock exchange etc. were what ensured that the violence against them would not start again. I am not in any way lauding Dawood or other criminal bhais like that, but do you think this perception is completely wrong, or is it somewhat justified?
I was in Bombay on the 10th anniversary of the Bombay riots, and a small bomb went off in a bus in Ghatkopar the week before the 10th anniversary of the stock exchange bombing. It seemed ominous – like a warning – though unclear from whom, to who.
[On 15th Jan if I remember correctly, Times of India published a front page report saying that vast majority of the victims were muslims after going through morgues in various hospitals. Almost immediately the situation improved. Because vast majority of hindus were made to think that they were under attack, there was "fear in air". ]
Do you think that this feeling of being under attack is what made Hindus in Gujarat open to tolerating the Gujarat violence? Ahmedabad has traditionally been famous for how safe it is for women – I’m wondering what kind of thing would break that kind of social viewpoint and make violence against (some) women tolerated if not acceptable.
[For 10 long years, events have changed, testimonies have changed, stories have been made up and yet, people haven't managed to pin Modi. So yes, no one is entitled to their facts.]
But apparently Modi and his pals are entitled to intimidate witnesses, destroy evidence and file groundless and malicious lawsuits in order to harass civil rights activists. Do you really think this is consonant with Raj Dharma?
Making a fact very hard to prove does not make that fact change, or go away. It might make it easier for those responsible for that fact to get away with their behaviour wrt legalities. But the fact itself remains.
[This is similar, frankly, to the RJB/BM judgement, in which one opinion said one petitioner was right, another opinion said the other petitioner was correct, and the third opinion set out an alternative version of correct as well] [You are talking through your hat. All of them agreed that a temple preceded the mosque. They only differed on the division of land with one judge dissenting. ]
No ji, you are the one talking through your hat here.
The original case was about legal ownership of the land, not about whether there was a temple there or not, and certainly not about the specific spot where Ram was born - which the judgement also happened to find the time to address. (I am sure that I am not alone in eagerly awaiting our judiciary’s findings on the Virgin Birth, the missing verses of Koran and sundry other theological issues that catch their fancy.)
You see my point? The judgement ignored the question of legal ownership and divided the land in the way that they thought best. (And which was possibly the best outcome for India, given the circs.) What it wasn’t was pure justice, it was very practical p [That’s why it’s disturbing that the Golwalkar etc. admired Hitler and the Nazis – they admired an ideology that inevitably leads to violence.] [Yes it is also disturbing that Nehru admired Stalin and the communists who managed to murder more people than the Nazis.]
Don’t you think it’s disturbing that Nehru stuck us with those damn five year plans, even after it became clear that they were impoverishing the Soviet Union? Don’t you think that the Maoist uprisings in Eastern India and Nepal, which are consciously Stalinist in their philosophy, inevitably lead to violence rather than peaceful and efficient progress?
[That why 1984 happened! Do you see the logical fallacy here?]
So how come wherever the Sangh Parivar is in power the minorities live terrified lives? Coincidence, or a systemic result of the Parivar’s social and political philosophy?
Ramki
[You are completely wrong. Till early 1940s, even Nazis, who were brimming with hatred for jews were not sure of what to do with the nearly 10 million jews]
They were building on a tradition of violent anti-semitism, which in turn was an expression of ethnocentricism. The Holocaust took anti-semitism and made it into an industrial process, that’s the difference between it and the darker cultural memes it built on.
[ the plan of most nazi leaders was to…resettle them outside Europe…It was much latter that Hitler and Co decided to cross ethical boundaries and ethnically cleanse the Jews.]
Actually, forcibly resettling the European Jews outside of Europe is ethnic cleansing, and is highly unethical. Just like forcing Muslims out of their homes in Gujarati villages was ethnic cleansing, and unethical. Understand?
[in a way it is the brits and french who indirectly caused the entire holocaust]
Why do fascists never take responsibility for their actions?
[ little use talking about RSS in 1930s and their views. It is like discussing present day Indian Muslim leadership based on how Mohammed Bin Tughluq behaved in 1400s.]
So let the RSS denounce Golwalkar’s support of the Nazis. Let them denounce his admiration of race theory. Have they ever done so? Why not?
If Indian Muslim leaders today spoke approvingly of Tughlaq’s more murderous actions, then yes, I think that I would be justified in distrusting them, and questioning their morality.
[ Arabs and Muslims are the Jews of today? How? Islam is having 1 billion adherents. Some 45 nations….]
But many Right Wing Indians want to treat Indian Muslims the way Right wing Europeans treated Jews in the build up to the Holocaust. You can bring up Muslim majority countries left and right, but what has that got to do with the price of tea in China?
@ZAFAR>>Speaking of on/off, what do you make of the Bombay Riots being quickly turned off once those bombs went off in the stock exchange?
Not true. The second phase of violence started around 4th Jan 1993, Pattern - Maha arti followed by attack on muslims. It completely went out of hand following Radhabai Chawl/Gandhi Chowk incident after which Bal Thackeray gave an open call to attack muslims. From 10th Jan onwards, curfew was imposed in many places in Bombay. During this time there was a palpable fear in Hindu areas. On 15th Jan if I remember correctly, Times of India published a front page report saying that vast majority of the victims were muslims after going through morgues in various hospitals. Almost immediately the situation improved. Because vast majority of hindus were made to think that they were under attack, there was "fear in air". One felt unsafe walking through such areas. Later when A.S.Samra took over, that was before Blasts, peace returned never to be disturbed again, touchwood.
Ghai Bhai
[I don't see anywhere 3 months Gujarat Riots extended .]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Gujarat_violence
From which:
“151 towns and 993 villages[28] in fifteen to sixteen of the state's 25 districts were affected by the post-Godhra violence, which was particularly severe in about five or six districts. The violence raged largely between 28 February and 3 March, and after a drop, restarted on 15 March, continuing till mid June.”
Iow, very heavy for a week, then a lull, then for three months (from Mid March to Mid June).
[So on basis of pure statistics how can you say that Riots were State sponsored when Hindus four times more arrested than Muslims?]
Okay: here are the statistics from the article:
Deaths caused by mobs (inc Godhra): 874 (20% Hindu, 80% Muslim). People displaced by violence: 71,000 (15% Hindu, 85% Muslim) Places of worship destroyed: 523 (3% Hindu, 96% Muslim, 1% other)
The article also says: “Unofficial estimates put the death toll closer to 2000, with Muslims forming a very much higher proportion of those killed.” I have also read that the number of displaced people was closer to 150,000. I am unable to get much information rapes, but: from other sources 43 cases registered (all Muslim victims, many physically mutilated and burned to death after rape). Leave aside, for the moment, loss of livelihood and businesses, and long term displacement within the State. Also, please remember that all Hindus killed were not necessarily killed by Muslims - the Best Bakery case 2 out of fourteen victims were Hindus who were burned to death because they worked with Muslims.
Now going by the stats, here are the State’s responses:
Preventative arrests: 17,947 (83% Hindu, 17% Muslim)
On the face of it, pretty good. But NONE of these were made by the evening of Feb 27. (In contrast to neighbouring States where preventative arrests, specifically in Mumbai, were swift and apparently effective.)
Substantive arrests: 9,954 (71% Hindu, 29% Muslim)
Less good.
Deaths by police firing: 170 (45% Hindu, 55% Muslim)
Frankly perplexing. If Muslims in the State are being killed at a ratio of 8 to every 2 Hindus killed, then why would the police open fire on these same Muslims at a ratio of 55 to every 45 Hindus fired upon.
I’ve also been unable to dig up detailed records of when, specifically, arrests were made and when shots were fired.
A possibility: the violence lasted for more than three months, in the beginning the police didn’t act against those responsible (the VHP etc) but after a month or so they realised that this was costing the State’s economy money, so they finally acted. (The same reason they only bothered to bring the Bombay riots to a close after bombs went off in the stock exchange.)
Just a thought, and possibly too cynical.\
Also from the wiki page:
One thousand army troops were flown in by the evening of 1 March to restore order. Intelligence officials alleged that the deployment was deliberately delayed by the state and central governments.[46] On 3 May, former Punjab police chief K P S Gill was appointed as security adviser to the Chief Minister.[47]
The Gujarat government transferred several senior police officers who had taken active measures to contain and investigate violent attacks to administrative positions.[23][48][49]
RB Sreekumar, who served as Gujarat's intelligence chief during the riots, alleged that the state government issued "unconstitutional directives", with officials asking him to kill Muslims involved in rioting or disrupting a Hindu religious event. The Gujarat government denied the allegations, calling them "baseless" and instigated out of malice because Mr. Sreekumar was not promoted.[50]
[[ Alakshyendra - we are all entitled to our own opinion, but we aren't entitled to our own facts.]]
Thanks for stating the obvious.
The only folks I see making up facts are people like the ones who'd like to see the back of Modi. For 10 long years, events have changed, testimonies have changed, stories have been made up and yet, people haven't managed to pin Modi. So yes, no one is entitled to their facts.
>> You are talking through your hat
Do you really think he has the intelligence or honesty to do otherwise?
Right now there is a trial on Anders Breivik underway in Norway over his killing of 77 people and injuring several others. What is the need for a trial? In this case the facts are not in dispute. Putting Breivik on trial helps Norway reflect on what is it in their system that has gone wrong so that they can take any remedial action. Also if there are any sympathisers to Breivik’s cause, through vicarious trial, they can be challenged if not disabused of their convictions. Earlier in European countries, prior to the execution of capital punishment, the convict had a right to make a speech at the scaffold. Sometimes, the convict asked for forgiveness, sometimes protested innocence. In the 1930’s in Soviet Union show trials called purges, with self incriminating confessions by accused helped Stalin keep the populace in a state of terror. So what is the psychological purpose of trials in our times? In the best possible scenario, it tells the victim of a crime, “Look, you are not the only one who has suffered. We have suffered with you. We take the burden of revenge off you. Let us, as a society examine what has happened. Let us understand your loss. Let us make reparation.” It tells the accused, “What has happened is a crime. These are the evidences against you. What do you have to say?” There is a trial at the end of which, the accused is either acquitted, “We cannot connect you with the crime and we were initially mistaken”, or the accused is convicted and punished, “You have diminished humanity with your actions. As a corrective, you have to _______ and we also take the following punitive actions. You have failed to act as a responsible human being; we withdraw the privileges that belong to a responsible being alone”. There is no closure for the victims, if there is no trial or if trial ends with inadequate punishment. Again no closure if innocents are framed and convicted. Where there is no rule of humane laws, there is descent into anarchy resulting in repressive laws. It was in this context I mentioned Nuremberg trials. Germany is a liberal society. I am not sure the sort of abusive intolerant comments in this forum would be tolerated in Germany any more. Kristallnacht marked the beginning of Holocaust. Nuremberg trials completely discredited Nazi ideology. Outside loony fringe of hindutva and as Ramki pointed out, Hamas you will not find any takers for Hitler. By the way Stalin and Mao have individually resulted in more deaths than Hitler. Our tryst with hindutva has not yet ended. In the past few weeks there have been incidents to stoke communal fire by hoisting Pakistani flag and by desecrating temple. Who did it? Muslims? No. Hindus? No. Hindutvavadis. Marudhamuthu>> Today--the best lack all conviction, and the worst are full of passionate intensity. Laugh at the jokers. But get your facts right. All the passionate intensity falls flat under humour with a bite.
About Golwalkar here is a link www.countercurrents.org/comm-guha281106.htm Here are some gems from guruji
>>To keep up the purity of the Race and its culture, Germany shocked the world by her purging the country of the semitic Races — the Jews. Race pride at its highest has been manifested here. Germany has also shown how well nigh impossible it is for Races and cultures, having differences going to the root, to be assimilated into one united whole, a good lesson for us in Hindusthan to learn and profit by. Ever since that evil day, when Moslems first landed in Hindustan, right up to the present moment, the Hindu Nation has been gallantly fighting on to take on these despoilers. The Race Spirit has been awakening.<<
@Ramki >> Population of muslims in Gujarat is increasing, Gujarat is prospering, etc..
Why is HDI index below that of Bengal? That is beside the point. Will you try Kasab or will you let him rule Gujarat for some years to see if there are riots (turning blind eye to fake encounters and serial bombings?) Then declare him a hero?
>> Courts will decide. Ultimately God will decide.The more you write and depict Modi the more he will rise....Rao
Mr. Rao, did not you notice that outlook is deliberately publishing Modi's Villainous type picture. My suggestion would be that Mr. Modi should undergo botox surgery in order to enhance his dashing personality. He should also remove his beard. He would certainly stand a better chance for PM-ship. Dashing and smashing Modi.
>>That’s why it’s disturbing that the Golwalkar etc. admired Hitler and the Nazis – they admired an ideology that inevitably leads to violence.
Yes it is also disturbing that Nehru admired Stalin and the communists who managed to murder more people than the Nazis. That why 1984 happened! Do you see the logical fallacy here?
>>True. And because we are the country we are, we will continue with this long drawn out appeals process - based on two semi-official reports made at the direction of the Supreme Court, one of which says ‘no prosecutable case’ while the other says (from leaks) that there is.
Your original statement was about Modi avoiding facing his accusers in court and that he was above the law. It is clear that your statement was factually incorrect and the point about the time taken for trials is irrelevant. Secondly, there is only ONE point of disagreement between the two reports – that about the credibility of Sanjiv Bhat. Third, contrary to secular perception both reports do not have equal weightage as is clear from the SC judgment.
>>This is similar, frankly, to the RJB/BM judgement, in which one opinion said one petitioner was right, another opinion said the other petitioner was correct, and the third opinion set out an alternative version of correct as well
You are talking through your hat. All of them agreed that a temple preceded the mosque. They only differed on the division of land with one judge dissenting.
Modi does not need to become anything... contributing to anypart of India is contributing to India... he has done enuf for a Bharat Ratna... He should do gud work wherever he is... It is feudal mindset that thinks only PM can be the chief contributor... if past 8 years of experience is anything to go by, PM is a worthless post. :)
Zafar >> But they knew his ideology – which is what led to concentration camps.
You are completely wrong. Till early 1940s, even Nazis, who were brimming with hatred for jews were not sure of what to do with the nearly 10 million jews of continental europe. in 1930s, the plan of most nazi leaders was to collect all the jews,make them work for rebuilding germany (since they beleived that germany's WW1 and Depression damages were due to jewish bankers) and then resettle them outside europe and madagascar was then planned for becoming the future jewish state.
It was much latter that Hitler and Co decided to cross ethical boundaries and ethnically cleanse the Jews.
I repeat again, 1930s world is not like today. THere was no internet,no Facebook, no youtube, and information spread was very little. The world at that time had almost no clue of what nazis were doing. what the world media observed was that germany was unfairly treated post WW1, suffered immense economic deprivation till early 1930s, but by 1936, they completely rebuilt their infrastructure and conducted olympics @berlin successfully. Nazis were admired by a lot whose admiration was based out of immense dislike of british (who along with french imposed huge economic burden on germany post WW1 and in a way it is the brits and french who indirectly caused the entire holocaust).
Even the Left which initially disliked Hitler and nazis turned around and considered nazis as a friendly force against imperialism by 1939.
So little use talking about RSS in 1930s and their views. It is like discussing present day Indian Muslim leadership based on how Mohammed Bin Tughluq behaved in 1400s.
Zafar >> But Arabs and Muslims are the Jews of today, Ramki.s
This is the most illogical and untruthful observation i have ever seen in outlook. Arabs and Muslims are thej ews of today ?How?
Islam is having 1 billion adherants. Some 45 nations in world are islam dominated and every one of them, except Turkey and Indonesia and maybe Lebanon are theocratic states where minorities are treated as half citizens. Islamic belt stretches across over 10000 km on planet, from Atlantic Ocean (Senegal) right till Pacific Ocean (Indonesia)
Islamic nations, despite generally lower HDI and absence of secular democracy are much better off economically compared to Hindu India and Non Islamic Sub Saharan Africa. Not because of better governance but because of Oil.
The arabs in west asia use infidel (non islamic mostly indian,lankan,filipno immigrant labour) to run their economies, dig out crude oil (using Western world's technologies) at less than 10 dollars a barrel and sell it to infidel (India, China, USA etc) nations at over 120 dollars a barrel. And they use their surpluses not to build a equitable nation with high HDI (which is what Islam and Koran would recommend) but instead use it to fight among each other, indulge in mindless luxury and fund extremists in other nations. And surely who are to blame? Not the religion, not other religions,not the jews or hindus but the leaders and maybe the clergy which support the leaders?
History will not judge arabs of 20th century well for sure, for they have been given the best natural resource of human civilization yet not used it for betterment of humanity.
The few Islamic nations which are secular, tolerant and more liberal are incidentally non arabs and have history and heritage of pre islamic cultures- am referring to Turkey, Indonesia and maybe Lebanon. Given this,to say that Muslims and Arabs of present day are Jews of 1930s is travesty of truth. Maybe the citizens of arab nations are treated by their own regimes as Hitler treated the jews but then this only shows that the problem is within. Arab Spring is over a year old, yet some of the most intolerant and tyrannical regimes of West Asia are intact, thriving and continuing to crush the ordinary muslim citizen on the street.
Rao,
>> The more you write and depict Modi the more he will rise.
That's how monsters grow! Vajpayee should have fired Modi in April 2002 in the BJP meeting in Goa, as was planned. But he chickened out! History will never forgive him for that.
Marudhamuthu,
>> Modi is too small a person to be considered for the job of leading India in the best and the worst of times we are living in.
You have said it in a nutshell!
As it is already suggested that Ashis Nandy, talking to Outlook India, on Narendra Modi; no need of any more explanation. He has every right to have his opinion; I have no quarrel with that.
But two things attracted me; 1. "I may applaud his (Modi's) administrative skills ....." That is a silver line! Love it or hate it, Modi did compel his detractors to applaud him for that which he is trying to convey for many years.
2. "It is almost an accident to have a person like Vajpayee as PM. I consider him one of the great prime ministers of India." Now that is something confusing to me. I don't know Mr Nandi specifically, but it was different story in that school of thought where Mr Nandi is coming from. Vajpayee, a fox inside skin of a lamb; A fake mascot of Hindutva hardline. A main culprit of Babri demolition, who stayed away from Ayodhya as per the plan. any many more ..... What happened to that? Did Vajpayee's record as PM (vis-à-vis MMS era) changed that? What if Modi would turn out to be the same?
I do see repetition of Vajpayee bashing this time around as well, though much more intense. I am no fool to say Modi is Vajpayee; but I can almost guaranty, he will prove much more effective than the curse we are facing for last 8 years. And no, India is no pre-world war-2 Germany. The whole idea is rhetorical, more than substantial.
Ashih Nandy please read wrt your comments since said due lack of TV much data is not known.
Read and modify your Article .
Alas you are completely Modified psycho.
""The Delhi High Court, while pronouncing its verdict on a riots-related case in 2009, stated:[30]
“ Though we boast of being the world’s largest democracy and the Delhi being its national capital, the sheer mention of the incidents of 1984 anti-Sikh riots in general and the role played by Delhi Police and state machinery in particular makes our heads hang in shame in the eyes of the world polity. ”
There are allegations that the government destroyed evidence and shielded the guilty. Asian Age, an Indian daily newspaper, ran a front-page story calling the government actions "the mother of all cover-ups."[31][32]
From 31 October 1984 to 10 November 1984, human rights groups People's Union for Democratic Rights and People's Union for Civil Liberties conducted an inquiry into the riots by interviewing victims of the riots, police officers, neighbours of the victims, army personnel and political leaders. In their joint report, entitled Who Are The Guilty?, they concluded:""
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1984_anti-Sikh_riots
Must read for all those who say " Congress ne maafi mang li but Modi ne nahin "
Specially Ashih Nandy for you as you were trying to cover up 1984 saying
'TV nahin tha ji ' So we did not and can't monitor much .Can you now see the Dawn ???
This in turn prompted retaliatory attacks against Muslims and general communal riots on a large scale across the state, in which 790 Muslims and 254 Hindus were ultimately killed and 223 more people were reported missing.[4][5] 523 places of worship were damaged: 298 dargahs, 205 mosques, 17 temples, and 3 churches. Muslim-owned businesses suffered the bulk of the damage. 61,000 Muslims and 10,000 Hindus fled their homes. Preventive arrests of 17,947 Hindus and 3,616 Muslims were made. In total 27,901 Hindus and 7,651 Muslims were arrested. Nearly 10,000 rounds of bullets were fired in police shootings that killed 93 Muslims and 77 Hindus.[6][7][8][9]
Your link say the above.So on basis of pure statistics how can you say that Riots were State sponsored when Hindus four times more arrested than Muslims ?
I don't see anywhere 3 months Gujarat Riots extended .
Varseney link you give does not support what you say .
Minister Kamal Nath is accused by Sikhs for instigating riots in MP .
Bhagat was too offered and offers withdrawn for Minister's post.
Officers accused in 1984 have been promoted there is no confusion here .
Any way since I am witness to the riots in Delhi so I know at the first hand what happened ,how happened and none punished .
Incidentally I am also witness to two riots in Ahmadabad during Congress Rule.So I know first hand what happened .
Alakshyendra - we are all entitled to our own opinion, but we aren't entitled to our own facts.
People of India will decide it.Narendra modi need bnot appologige.Who is this Ashis Nadndy
Fe;;ow to decide ?. .Courts will decide. Ultimately God will decide.The more you write and depict Modi the more he will rise.
Most significant analysis.
I would like to add this. Modi is too small a person to be considered for the job of leading India in the best and the worst of times we are living in. But It is a pity that other eligible persons are not quite visible on the horizon. There surely are a few highly capable and experienced leaders in the BJP and other parties as well. But they don't seem to be the kind of inclusivist persons that Prof Nandy speaks of. Talented they are, but a deep understanding of the people of India and the humanist ethos of the country they don't seem to possess and radiate. They may serve in different capacities quite well, but to lead the whole complex nation?
That will require a combination and synthesis of the personalities and values of both Gandhiji and Baba Ambedkar. They were both great humanists and had great conviction.
Today--the best lack all conviction, and the worst are full of passionate intensity.
Gandhiji and Baba Ambedkar.
[[The thing is, you seem to want opposition to melt away because the SIT report apparently says one thing (no chance of successful prosecution) EVEN THOUGH the Amicus Curiae report says another thing (that there should be prosecution). That's unrealistic on your part.]]
The The Amicus Curiae's report is by no means standalone and forms one of the inputs -- in addition to the SIT's own investigations -- for the SIT's report, which has come to the conclusion that there is no evidence (or not enough) to prosecute Modi. Though the court will have the last word on it, it is highly unlikely to come to a different conclusion, considering the fact that it has been supervising the investigation throughout the duration it lasted and there were several interim reports submitted to the SC and the SC has at no point objected to any of them.
As for the opposition melting away, I think just as you guys want Modi to melt away, we're entitled to our own desires too. The Left and Islamists can do all they want, but in the end, it all boils down to whether Modi was indeed culpable either through omission or commission and whether the courts can pin him on that. By the looks of it, the NGOs and activists have proved to be more foolish than the government (usually it's always the other way round), shooting themselves in the foot time and again.
How about Jayalalithaa and Mamata Banerjee?
@Kamlesh >>show me even one leader in India who can match the intelligence and vision of Modi
I will show two leaders ; (i) Lal Advani & (ii) Praveen Togadia
@ RSM, Irreverent
[Second, once the government got its act together (within 72 hours) all rioting stopped, as if someone had blown the whistle and called off a game or a movie show.] [What essentially is given as evidence that Delhi 1984 was not a pogrom is actually an evidence to the contrary. It is clear that the Congress has let loose their attack dogs who played havoc for three days and all ‘riots’ stopped when they were promptly called back.]
I agree with RSM. I think it’s indicative of a pogrom. [Zafar remarked that this statement was made for Delhi riots (demonstrate Delhi govt's efficiency??). Now, the poor guy is struggling to juggle with two contradicting statements in his sorry attempt to prove that Gujarat 2002 was a pogrom, not riots. ]
But saying that this on/off thing is indicative of a pogrom doesn’t logically mean that:
1. That is the ONLY defining characteristic of a pogrom; nor that 2. ALL pogroms must show the exact same characteristics
If it makes you any happier, I think that Delhi 1984 was more of a pogrom than Gujarat 2002 – though I think this is because of the somewhat diffuse nature of Sangh Parivar leadership. The Parivar leadership in Govt might have wanted the pogrom to end after three days, but the Parivar leadership outside Govt (so of VHP or Bajrang Dal) clearly didn’t want the pogrom to finish. And the participants outside Govt remained, for some time, a protected species.
Speaking of on/off, what do you make of the Bombay Riots being quickly turned off once those bombs went off in the stock exchange? Indicates a pogrom, na? But by whom? Shiv Sena and Kaaangress are supposed to be opponents, not colluding. ??
@ Alakshyendra
There are TWO reports which have been completed - the SITs and the Amicus Curiae's - BOTH at the direction of the SC. Let's read them before jumping to conclusions : - )
The thing is, you seem to want opposition to melt away because the SIT report apparently says one thing (no chance of successful prosecution) EVEN THOUGH the Amicus Curiae report says another thing (that there should be prosecution). That's unrealistic on your part.
Additionally - giving the whole thing oxygen like this is damaging to your brand; which is at least one reason the Left so delights in talking about it. Even if they don't win the argument, they gain from your participating in it, and linking Modi (further, again) with the allegations. jmho.
But people keep claiming that Modi has been acquitted. But if Modi has not GONE to court, he cannot be ACQUITTED by the court. At this point acquittal is not possible.
[You need to have a case to be dragged to court.]
True. And because we are the country we are, we will continue with this long drawn out appeals process - based on two semi-official reports made at the direction of the Supreme Court, one of which says ‘no prosecutable case’ while the other says (from leaks) that there is.
This is similar, frankly, to the RJB/BM judgement, in which one opinion said one petitioner was right, another opinion said the other petitioner was correct, and the third opinion set out an alternative version of correct as well – which so far has not happened in this case – perhaps only because a third report was not requested by the SC.
Another similarity is that these findings are at the trial court level – so they can be (and will be, perhaps were designed to be) appealed. The SIT was set up at the direction of the SC, but its reports were to be used by the trial court, not (yet) by the Supreme Court itself.
Imho in the end we will get some level of Panchayati justice from this. The guilty will not be fully punished, but they will not fully get away with their crimes either. (Hopefully enough of a price to discourage other politicians from using communal violence for personal gain – which is why it’s important to keep going with this case.) The concept of the judicial process itself functioning as de facto punishment is disturbing.
@ Ramki
[Please check with RSS manuals of present times and see if they admire or approve Hitler. Yes, in 1940s RSS leaders admire Hitler. Because, you did not have internet, google, youtube and Satellite TV. it was not just RSS. A lot of leaders across world admired hitler till end of WW2, because the world did not know about the concentration camps.]
But they knew his ideology – which is what led to concentration camps. You cannot have that ideology without it ending in violence for the minority. That’s why it’s disturbing that the Golwalkar etc. admired Hitler and the Nazis – they admired an ideology that inevitably leads to violence. As – going by the record – does their own.
[So who is admiring Hitler now? It is likes of Hamas and Palestinian extremists and Iran's regime.]
True.
[RSS and BJP of present times are openly for better ties with Israel.]
But Arabs and Muslims are the Jews of today, Ramki. Are the RSS and BJP believably for better ties with Muslims and the Palestinians also?
[Kamal Nath]
Fair call. Ceded.
[[There has been no court case yet, so of course there is no court verdict.]]
There've been several attempts to drag him to court or pin blame on him (the Gulberg case is just that). Not too long ago, you were advising everyone to wait and not jump the gun before the SIT report came out. Now that it has come out, you want people to wait for the courts to give its verdict. And when that happens, you will join the Bandookwalas and say even court verdicts do not matter because you know Modi is guilty.
If Guj riots == holocaust, Godhra burning == medieval hindu massacres ???
You need to have a case to be dragged to court. Wild allegations are not enough. Now you know why Sajjan Kumar went to court. It is pathetic how you try and make this sound like a virtue.
>> "Second, once the government got its act together (within 72 hours) all rioting stopped, as if someone had blown the whistle and called off a game or a movie show." >> "What essentially is given as evidence that Delhi 1984 was not a pogrom is actually an evidence to the contrary. " - RSM
The original statement was quoted in context of the Gujarat riots (by Shekhar Gupta, link provided by Zafar). In order to support another link where Gujarat riots were claimed to have run for many months, Zafar remarked that this statement was made for Delhi riots (demonstrate Delhi govt's efficiency??). Now, the poor guy is struggling to juggle with two contradicting statements in his sorry attempt to prove that Gujarat 2002 was a pogrom, not riots.
>>Second, once the government got its act together (within 72 hours) all rioting stopped, as if someone had blown the whistle and called off a game or a movie show.
What essentially is given as evidence that Delhi 1984 was not a pogrom is actually an evidence to the contrary. It is clear that the Congress has let loose their attack dogs who played havoc for three days and all ‘riots’ stopped when they were promptly called back.
@Ramki
I shall reply later in the night. We can start with discussing Golwalkar. But I must leave now.
R Saroja >> It is estimated that there were at least 15 million holocaust victims including over 6 million Jews. As the Chinese philosopher Laozi said, “The journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step”. How did Holocaust begin?.....
You first began by saying that gujarat riots = WW2 Holocaust, but now say that Gujarat 2002 riots = Kristallnacht. What a comedown ... Which is why i suggested that please do not use these forums to expose your ignorance and biased thinking.
So Modi = Hitler,since Hitler started with Kristallnacht in 1938 and Modi begain his regime with Gujarat 2002 riots. But what happened latter? Hitler went on, started WW2, organized genocide of Jews and killed 6 million Jews. End result is that by time Hitler era ended in 1945, practically no jews in continental europe.
In contrast, post 2002 riots and Modi win in 2002 polls, Gujarat has seen unprecedented peace - which is a record for a state which had endless communal riots since 1960s. The most important thing to note is Census 2011 which says that the population of Muslims in Gujarat 2011 is more than population of Muslims in Gujarat 2001. What more to say? So any comparison with Hitler made by anyone shows how utterly people are prejudiced by ignorance. Please learn facts and speak...
R Saroja >> Note that RSS admires Hitler. It was pointed out that anti Semitism has a long history. We also have a long history of prejudice against shudras and ati shudras. The hatred against Muslims or Christians arises from the fact that many of them are converts from lower castes. In a posting on RTE I said that 25% reservation was a golden opportunity for the rest of 75% to learn from. There were many protests but none seemed to understand that egalitarianism may be desirable quality in itself to be cultivated.
Please check with RSS manuals of present times and see if they admire or approve Hitler. Yes, in 1940s RSS leaders admire Hitler. Because, you did not have internet, google, youtube and Satellite TV. it was not just RSS. A lot of leaders across world admired hitler till end of WW2, because the world did not know about the concentration camps. In US, a lot of industrialists admired Hitler. A lot of British leaders, except Churchill admired Hitler. Stalin and marxists of Soviet admired hitler and went to sign a pact with him in 1939. In India a lot of anti british nationalists across ideological spectrum admired Hitler and that is why SC Bose started INA and allied with Hitler/Japan. All that was when the world was not knowing about these concentration camps.
So who is admiring Hitler now? It is likes of Hamas and Palestinian extremists and Iran's regime. RSS and BJP of present times are openly for better ties with Israel. In contrast it is leftists like you who hate Israel and want to support extreme elements among Palestinians. Palestine movement extremists from the 1930s always supported and admired Hitler.
I dont understand why you bring RTE discussion here, but let me tell you some truth from Indian History. In last 2500 years of Indian History, Buddhist and Jain rulers ruled various parts of India for atleast 1000 years since 400 BC. And we were ruled by 1000 years of Islamic and Christian (British) rule. Since 1947, India was mostly ruled by Nehru dyansty members ; Nehru was an atheist non believer, Indira/Rajiv were Parsis and since 2004 India is effectively ruled by Catholic Christian Sonia Gandhi. The population of Christians and Muslims in India has grown faster than general population in last 65 years. Minorities in India have so many laws and institutions to protect them and no country other than India has had minorities in top positions/postsSo what is the prejudice you are telling? And for Shudras/Ati Shudras, may I point out to you that much of Bhakthi Movement was led by Shudra leaders (OBCs) and atleast outside Ganges Plain, most of kings in pre-islamic era were shudras (OBCs). In Present day India, except for a handful of states, majority of states are ruled by OBC CMs and one of them is Narendra Modi. So should i say that your hatred towards Modi is a example of prejudice against Shudras? And why dont you shed the prejudice first before advising others?
@Zafar
>>.[One is still a Senior Cabinet Minister against whom cases registered in USA ]
Who?>>
Kamal Nath
1. Bal Thackerey
2. Raj Thackerey
3. Nithari Killers(I forget their names)
@ Kamlesh
[Asis should know that there is absolutely no stigma on Modi. People love him. Even Muslims are voting for his leadership.]
So why worry about what Outlook publishes? You should not bother yourself with it, instead go out and luxuriate in all that abundant Modi-love, secure in the knowledge that everybody in India has already given him their vote in the yet to be declared election. He won’t even need to campaign – which is lucky, since Nitish Kumar and Biju Patnaik won’t have him in their states, but why get bogged down in details?
[By appaluding Modi's intelligence and his long-term vision; Nandy is insulting the intelligence of people of Gujarat and people of India.]
Hainji?
There has been no court case yet, so of course there is no court verdict.
[In Delhi the violence ended within three days, in Gujarat it lasted for more than a month.] [In Gujarat at the most three and half days .]
For easy reference
“151 towns and 993 villages[28] in fifteen to sixteen of the state's 25 districts were affected by the post-Godhra violence, which was particularly severe in about five or six districts. The violence raged largely between 28 February and 3 March, and after a drop, restarted on 15 March, continuing till mid June.[29] Northern and central Gujarat, as well as the north-eastern tribal belt which are closer to Godhra City, were the worst affected while Saurashtra and Kutch remained largely peaceful.[28]”
[2 In Delhi those police held responsible for failing in their duty were demoted and punished,] [ Name a single one who was demoted ?]
http://conconflicts.ssrc.org/archives/gujarat/varshney/
“....[A]s the riots were dying out on November 3 (Mrs. Gandhi had been assassinated on October 30) Delhi’s Lieutenant-Governor, P.G. Gavai, was fired. … The Station Head Officer (SHO) of Trilokpuri (police station) was removed on November 2. The police commissioner, Subhash Tandon, was replaced on November 12. So were Deputy Commissioner of Police (east), under whose jurisdiction Trilokpuri fell, Additional Police Commissioner (range), and Deputy Commissioner of Police (south). Within a month or so they were all facing departmental inquiries. Contrast this with what happened in Gujarat. Did any policeman get removed or punished for non-performance or complicity? Narendra Modi, on the other hand, moved out mainly those who had been effective, true and loyal to the uniform....”
[ All of them were given the Minsterial Posts except Sajjan Kumar but offers withdrawn when hue and cry raised.]
Provide proof. Who was given a Ministerial Post which was withdrawn. Give me a name and some dates.
[One is still a Senior Cabinet Minister against whom cases registered in USA ]
Who?
[Even Sajjan was given ticket ]
At least Sajjan Kumar went to court. Why is Modi avoiding facing his accusers in court? Why is he above the law?
[Waqf Boards land grabbings .]
Waqf boards are deeply corrupt institutions with limited accountability. They need to be more transparent, and with greater Government oversight – imho they should be run similarly to Temple Boards. But fascinating as they are, waqf boards seem somewhat off topic on this thread. Or are you trying to change the subject?
It seems that Outlook has decided to publish negative article on Narendra Modi in each of its edition. Once again we read blatant lies and delibrate mis-information. Readers have given sufficient rebuttals on mis-information about Gandhi family apologies on Sikh Riots. Comparison is wrong and inappropriate. Asis Nandy should stop spreading lies.
Asis should know that there is absolutely no stigma on Modi. People love him. Even Muslims are voting for his leadership. It is only in the minds of likes of Nandy and Setalvad. You keep on writing articles like this because of it helps even Modi haters also become Modi lovers after reading such articles. Modi does not need any certificate from Nandy. He has proven beyond doubt that he is kind of leader that emerge in 1,000 years.
Asis has lost his mental balance. He should seriously consult psychotherapist who can help him to remove posion he has in his mind for Narendra Modi. By appaluding Modi's intelligence and his long-term vision; Nandy is insulting the intelligence of people of Gujarat and people of India. I challenge Nandy to show me even one leader in India who can match the intelligence and vision of Modi.
Indian electorate are very clever and intelligent. They don't need Nandy's analysis on Modi. Whether you like it or not, Modi has earned his position to become the next prime minister of India. Thousand articles like this by Outlook cannot stop because Modi is in the hearts and minds of Indian people.
"'If I was Narendra Modi’s psychotherapist."
More than Modi, it is the scribes of Outlook who need a psychotherapist. They have a neurotic obsession with some one named Modi. Persistence of such obsession might result in brain damage(or global warming). Soon the scribes are treated the better.
these articles only add to aura of Modi.
''If I was Narendra Modi’s psychotherapist.'' - Ashis Nandy
Doctor first heal thyself !
A person who sees all middle class Gujaraties supporters of racial murders is so paranoid that he needs Psychotherapist.
But sorry Nandi sahib perhaps you have moved further from that stage too.
So another article on Modi!!!!!!!!!!!!! Outlook has become intellectually bankrupt and seems to have run out of ideas. They keep recycling the same stuff hundred thousand times.
'Section 153A '
Apply this Article honestly and put behind bars all those who have violated its clauses in India .
I will count how many of our Politician has been left out provided if I am left out.
And our brother posters here -who many will be left ? Hmmm how many writers will be hmmm ---?????
Not a bad suggestion. After all seeking forgiveness and forgiving people - both are marks of a strong man.
Zaffar
" In Delhi the violence ended within three days, in Gujarat it lasted for more than a month.
[In Gujarat at the most three and half days .Where you got the figure of one month ]
2 In Delhi those police held responsible for failingin their duty were demoted and punished, [ Name a single one who was demoted ?rather everyone promoted]
3 In Delhi those politicians who were associated with the violence were negatively viewed and their careers never recovered [ All of them were given the Minsterial Posts except Sajjan Kumar but offers withdrawn when hue and cry raised.One is still a Senior Cabinet Minister against whom cases registered in USA Even Sajjan was given ticket ]
You are an intelligent Poster .It pains me to contradict you time and again.
And finally once again You are avoided like Nassar,Faruki.TeePee to comment on Waqf Boards land grabbings .
For the Congress and its supporters such as the author, the law is that an accused is innocent until proved guilty, except for Narendra Modi. He is GUILTY, EVEN IF PROVED INNOCENT
By the way, does making Manmohan Singh PM absolve all the sins of 1984? Has ANYONE been held gulity so far?
And, was Manmohan Singh made PM really as an expiation for 1984?
Section 153A perfectly applies to this stupid article. So much hatred? People aren't even prepared to accept court verdicts.
Section 153A of the IPC reads as follows:
153A. Promoting enmity between different groups on grounds of religion, race, place of birth, residence, language, etc., and doing acts prejudicial to maintenance of harmony.—(1) Whoever—
(a) By words, either spoken or written, or by signs or by visible representations or otherwise, promotes or attempts to promote, on grounds of religion, race, place or birth, residence, language, caste or community or any other ground whatsoever, disharmony or feelings of enmity, hatred or ill-will between different religious, racial, language or regional groups or castes or communities, or
(b) Commits any act which is prejudicial to the maintenance of harmony between different religious, racial, language or regional groups or castes or communities, and which disturbs or is likely to disturb the public tranquility, 2[or]
Shall be punished with imprisonment which may extend to three years, or with fine, or with both.
@ 31/D, Lata, No I am not. Felt I am too young and insignificant to be there :)
Coming back to the ilks of Ashis Nandy, they are just mercenaries with a pen. And will not even blink before changing their hues if Modi comes to power. Once upon a time even VM wasted acres of print space lambasting congress for lack of Vision and leadership. Incidently that was just before 2005 elections.
Now congress for its own benefit should rely less on such venal intellectuals and focus on 2019 elections.
>>Why are you comparing Gujarat with Holocaust giving Nuremberg trial example<<
It is estimated that there were at least 15 million holocaust victims including over 6 million Jews. As the Chinese philosopher Laozi said, “The journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step”. How did Holocaust begin? In November 1938, a Jewish teenager Herschel Feibel Grynszpan shot at and critically wounded a German embassy official, Ernst vom Rath, in protest against the forcible deportation of 12,000 polish Jews including his family from Germany. On the evening of Rath’s death, Goebbels addressed a meeting of senior Nazis from all over Germany. He advised them not to openly organize spontaneous outbursts against the Jews, though he said it would not be surprising if Germans were outraged at the assassination of a German official by a Jew and took law into their hands. He forbade them from opposing or preventing any such action against the Jews, their properties or synagogues. Within hours began a pogrom against Jewish people throughout Germany, lasting whole night and well into next day. This night now is remembered as Kristallnacht (night of broken glass). Over 90 Jews died and 30,000 were imprisoned (sent to concentration camp) where about 1000 died because of ill treatment, before the rest were released some months later following international outcry. The parallels are there. On 27th Feb 2002 evening following Sabarmati Express burning, Modi called a meeting of his officials, asked them to look the other way when people expressed their outrage. In the pogrom that followed the number of deaths was several times the deaths in Kristallnacht. So were the number of displaced people. Note that RSS admires Hitler. It was pointed out that anti Semitism has a long history. We also have a long history of prejudice against shudras and ati shudras. The hatred against Muslims or Christians arises from the fact that many of them are converts from lower castes. In a posting on RTE I said that 25% reservation was a golden opportunity for the rest of 75% to learn from. There were many protests but none seemed to understand that egalitarianism may be desirable quality in itself to be cultivated.
Najid Hussain,
>> "....ask for forgiveness from your victims, accept that you created and used the communal polarization in the state to derive political mileage, and then pledge that you will not run for public office ever - in the state or outside." Good post! Excellent suggestion.
Kautilya,
>> Religious opposition comes from those who took Hindu community for granted in their response to perennial rioters in India.
Your whole theory is full of holes. The perennial rioters were and are the Bajrangis and their ilk, like those who desecrated with beef the Hanuman temple in Hyderabad and those who hoisted the Pakistani flag in Sindagi.
>>>>The Congressmen whose names surfaced or were even popularly mentioned in connection with the killings all paid the price. Political careers of H.K.L Bhagat, Jagdish Tytler and Sajjan Kumar never recovered from the taint of 1984 although nobody was ever convicted..
And that is a consolation to the families of the victims? That the political careers of the accused were finished? Wow!!! So Modi just has to lose an election (and badly at that) for him to be absolved for all taint and evade conviction.
Incidentally, Indira Gandhi was killed on October 31, 1984. Why does Shekhar Gupta's article as quoted by Varshney keep saying October 30?
@ Najid Hussain - how about a few suggestions to your ilk too? As someone already suggested, ask the likes of Teesta, bandookwala, Arundhati Roy etc to go to Vaishno Devi or do a Ganga Snaan and apologise for the burning of the train that they have been denying so far? Their excuses ranges from the Kar Sevaks had it coming to they burnt themselves to the Sanghis burnt the train. How about apologies for such things?
how about apologies for insisting that Batla House is a fake encounter though the PM and HM and other investigative agencies said it was not?
how about apology to Modi for heaping abuses and allegations and accusations on him when investigative agencies appointed by the supreme court have not found any evidence?
Read what Najid Hussain and Zafar have been writing about Modi and how he should seek salvation for his sins in 2002.
Yes he should rehab all those who have suffered in 2002 on account of State indifference.
Why havent both of you sought similiar response of not standing for Office from the Congressmen who held Office during so many such non Televised carnages in Meerut,Bhagalpur, Mumbai and Aligarh.
If you feel that strongly about the events in Gujrat the same did happen in the places I made out.
Why is that Congress who supported Lalu In Bihar not ask him to punish all those who were indicted for Bhagalpur in 85,Why was Mohsina Kidwai the MP who did not bother to visit Meerut when it burnt.
Why the PAC who shot 45 Muslim youth after riunding them up in cold blood not prosecuted by the Congress.It lost power in 87 When VP Singh came to power in National Front.
If you absolve these Two Timers who shed crocodile tears for Secularism in India today,then the Majority is not going to sit sucking thumbs.
Such open divide lies at the door of Muslim radicals like Geelany and Oppurtunists like Bukhari,it is they who have vitiated the atomsphere.
Yes people get emotional when writing on sensitive topics but serious introspection is a path to salvation.This holds good for both parties.(Hindus and Muslims).
There are so many adverse comments against Modi, even though he has been absolved of the charges of being instumental in initiating or not stopping the riots in Gujrat, post Godhara mascare. But I want to ask only question to media. Had there been no riots after that gruesom instance of burning alive innocent, unarmed Hindu 'sewaks', media and NGO's would not be after Muslim culprits with same vigour.
Unique in Prof. Nandy's analysis of Modi psyche - which has been well analyzed over the last ten years - is its simplicity of expression and a roadmap for redemption.
But I can't imagine a guy, who could not accept a skull cap from one of his admirers, polishing devotees' shoes at Ajmer in order to wash off the blood of the innocents from his hands.
So, I have another suggestion for Modi: Accept that you hated Muslims, that you said and did what IPS Officer Sanjiv Bhatt has been saying about you, ask for forgiveness from your victims, accept that you created and used the communal polarization in the state to derive political mileage, and then pledge that you will not run for public office ever - in the state or outside.
That can save you [Modi] polishing shoes at Khawaja Chisty's durbar. Until then, you will continue to be the prisoner of your own conscience. Of course, you may ignore the advice and take your chances with the prison term which still remains a possibility.
@ Wrongone - Nice post.
My two cents on the subject: Drivers of opposition to Modi is two fold - religious and political (and then there is the cocktail).
Religious opposition comes from those who took Hindu community for granted in their response to perennial rioters in India. They could not digest the fact of a backlash to the Godhra train burning incident, and to this day wish it was taken lying down and continue to find reasons to smear the victims of the Sabarmati's S6 using umpteen reasons. It is a simple byproduct of their expansionist religious background which gives them justification for eliminating anyone detrimental to their cause. For them, an assertive Hindu is a Sanghi - period.
Ah....the second class - political. We see them everywhere, across all parties, even in BJP, they simply are not willing to deliver. They rather have the people suffer (as we have been since independence) and engage in rhetoric and appeasement by caste/religion to make us aware of our differences. They are threatened by Modi, who has consistently delivered on development issues and treats all his governing populace the same. He will keep winning elections because of this approach and people's appetite to development will not let other parties to power by displacing him as long as he keeps them on the path of prosperity. Just imagine the fate of other political parties if he delivers such governance at the center!
All the remaining players in the game are simple pawns - be it Teesta, or Bhatt or whoever. They just advance the interests of either drivers - political and/or Religious. Once the common man sees through this travesty, they will choose Modi to lead them as the Gujaratis who are enjoying the fruits of development under his rule.
". Even if Modi wins all the cases and goes scot-free, the stigma of the riots will not go. The stigma will remain. Neither these cases, nor his internet presence, or being on the cover of Time, will matter in the long run"
Is this a reflection on Modi or on the writer and the country. Despite being cleared by an official investigating body if one sticks to a view point it points to bigotry of the most despicable kind.Such people may espouse secularism but in fact are the Nazis of modern India-narrow minded, crooked ane evil. If we have people like the author in our country who blindly believe in what they hold as truth in their warped minds, God help the nation.
>> "I can't name a single political party in India which is consistently clean and moral, and it bugs the hell out of me." - Zafar
Most of us will agree with that. Our politics is more like a competition about whose dhoti is less soiled. But, as "self first" citizens fractured along caste and religion, we thoroughly deserve the jokers we have as our representatives.
[True only in case of Bhagat. Tytler and Sajjan Kumar would have been MPs today if not for that shoe throwing incident.]
Coulda woulda shoulda. Don't agree.
[ Yesterday, you seemed to agree with Shekhar Gupta's comment: "Second, once the government got its act together (within 72 hours) all rioting stopped, as if someone had blown the whistle and called off a game or a movie show"]
Irreverent, I think he was talking about Delhi, not Gujarat. Though frankly I think he's splitting hairs re Delhi not being a pogrom - it definitely was a pogrom imho, and arguing that Raj Dharma was re-established sooner than it has (yet to) be(en) in Gujarat is not really an excuse of any kind. I grew up in Delhi, and I can tell you that it was a shock to the city, because it brough back terrible memories of Partition to many people whose families had suffered through that. Trying to justify it, or to minimise it, or even to pretend that the Gandhis have accepted any moral responsibility and apologised for it, is bloody farcical.
Vaisai I am in a generally bad mood because of Bukhari and the SP - at this point I think they're all communal or corrupt or dynastic or just generally scoundrels and knaves. I can't name a single political party in India which is consistently clean and moral, and it bugs the hell out of me.
Ok guys why dont you all try to be like me,unbiased,honest and a true Proud Indian.
Thanks for your compliments.Really appreciate it.India meri jaan.
Let me give my take about Modi,the way I look at him.
Modi will not seek defence land to build a house after he has retired,The President has after bieng involved in a Bank diwala sacm and small time account holders lost 233 crores.
Modi will not build statues like Mayavati has done in UP using Tax Payers money.
Modi will not seek immunity like so many holding accounts in Foriegn Banks.
Modi will not hold the BJP to ransom seeking tickets for his son in law as the Imam of Jama Masjid has.
Modi will not seek donations for trusts run by his relatives as BSY has done.
Modi will not get Quid Pro quo investments in shell companies owned by him or his kin.Like YSR did in AP.
Yes Modi without all these Qualities must stand up and take responsibility for the carnage in 2002 and rehab the Victims.
He does not need the Image of a Hindu Samrat as most jokers on the site are asking him to be.
Modi must be a Bharat Samrat and he will be a hero for ever.Jai hind.
Comments by WHATS IN NAME. I am not sure wheter it was supportive, a ridicule or a censure because I am neither Sanghi nor communal. I am as softheaded as many who contribute their opinion through these columns. But I wonder some times whether or not we are giving only one sided comment. We have heard Imraan Khan takling passionately about Kashmir. we have also heard a Muslim MP from Kerala talking on the floor of Lok Sabha about plight of Palestinian Muslims. But can we ever imagine a Sachin Tendulkar or Sunil Gawaskar talking about Kashmir and how it is an integral part of India. Or hear Mohammed Azarudding, Sharmila Tagore, Shahrukh Khan expressing their concerns about the plight of more than 500000 Kashmiri Hindus who were evicted from their land forcebly for no other reason but just because they were Hindus. Can you imagine a Maharashtrian Karandikar still mainting his family traditions after taking some different surname as Khan or Antulay or some such other name. Sadly a Punjabi Minhas, Sehgal, Cheema, Randhawa or Kochar on both sides of our border have detached themselves from their origin. This is what I mean.
>> "In Delhi the violence ended within three days, in Gujarat it lasted for more than a month." - Zafar
Yesterday, you seemed to agree with Shekhar Gupta's comment: "Second, once the government got its act together (within 72 hours) all rioting stopped, as if someone had blown the whistle and called off a game or a movie show"
By that logic, Delhi tick that qualifier for pogrom. Can you be consistent please. Not that we expect it from you, but we get confused by such dilly-dallying.
>> "First of all, the ordinary mass of the Hindus in Delhi never got involved in the riots—many of us put on crash helmets, picked up hockey sticks and cricket bats, wickets, anything at night to run vigils in our streets so no “outsiders” could harm our Sikh neighbours."
Generally, ordinary Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs et al would stay away from riots, except to defend themselves. It is the local goons who make merry, irrespective of their religion. And, unlike Sikhs, Muslims live in ghettos (unfortunate, but true). Why would they need Hindus to come to their defence? Even if they did, the benefit of hindsight tells us that it would be stupid. Many police officers who tried to control the mobs were later made an accused. The (in)famous Gulbarga Society case is a good example why Hindus should NOT have tried to help the Muslims.
>> "Second, once the government got its act together (within 72 hours) all rioting stopped"
Aren't we told that the riots went on for months?
>> "Third, and this is the most important distinction, there was shame, embarrassment, contrition, even fear on the faces of the top civil servants, police officers, Congressmen. "
Wow!! How did I miss that?
>> "Political careers of H.K.L Bhagat, Jagdish Tytler and Sajjan Kumar never recovered from the taint of 1984 although nobody was ever convicted.."
True only in case of Bhagat. Tytler and Sajjan Kumar would have been MPs today if not for that shoe throwing incident.
Ghai bhai
[So you try to give clean chit to Secu Raj killings of Muslims in Riots ??]
I do not. But I will not give Modi a clean chit either.
Re the police reporting to the Home Minister, and after him to the PM, fair call. But you *are* comparing situations where:
1 In Delhi the violence ended within three days, in Gujarat it lasted for more than a month.
2 In Delhi those police held responsible for failingin their duty were demoted and punished, in Gujarat they were promoted.
3 In Delhi those politicians who were associated with the violence were negatively viewed and their careers never recovered - in Gujarat they made participation in violence a career enhancing move.
You can keep arguing that they are the same, but they seem very different, in a lot of ways. And I have *no* interest in defending the Gandhis or the Congress' role in this.
So you try to give clean chit to Secu Raj killings of Muslims in Riots ??
Your defence for 1984 is totally confused like PM is not responsible but CM Delhi .
Zafar sahib please understand once for all Delhi Police is not under CM Delhi but it is under the Home Minister who in turn is under the PM . So now basic question : In 2002 one Hindu rioter killed by Gujarat Police under Modi .
How many Hindu rioters killed for 60000 Muslims killed ( or whatever the number of acceptable to Secu friends after their scrutiny- even 100 Muslims killed if you suggest acceptable to me.Though nearly 25000 is the number during Lalu Raj including Bhagalpur ) during Secular Rule ? .
ZERO !
And loot of Waqf lands ??
Mahatma Gandhi was genius . He understood your limitations very well . SO Bapu said ;-
Close Eyes ! (Hence you See no Riots under Secus.)
Close Ears .! ( Since U should not so See so cotton plug ears )
Shut Mouth ! (So that By mistake even the slightest Truth does not come out )
“We are a Confused Nation – first we denounced Modi for taking Law in his Hands and when the Law un-cuffed his Hands, we denounced the Law of the Land.”
>> Why Saba Naqvi Bhaumik not interview some of the relatives of Sabarmati Express and get their opinion too and whether the perpetrators of the crime should visit Siddhi Vinayak or Kashi Vishweshar or Mata Vaishno Devi.
That would be communal. Only a Sanghi would say something like that.
Pardon my comments but it is an idiotic idea. Why should Narendra Modi pay obeissance to Khwaja Moiuddin Chishti. Why Saba Naqvi Bhaumik not interview some of the relatives of Sabarmati Express and get their opinion too and whether the perpetrators of the crime should visit Siddhi Vinayak or Kashi Vishweshar or Mata Vaishno Devi.
@ Ghai Bhai
I am not defending other rioters or the politicians who have profited from them. As we have discussed before, I am not sure that your figures stand up to analysis – first of all you take the absolutely lowest estimation of Muslim deaths, and secondly you assume that all Hindu deaths were due to either police firing or to Muslim violence – ignoring documented cases of Hindus being killed by Hindutva mobs (2 of the fourteen people killed at Best Bakery were Hindus, killed because they worked with Muslims).
That said, here are some articles which might be of interest to you, more broadly about communal violence, and specifically re the difference between Delhi and Gujarat. (Btw, the PM is not directly responsible for public order in Delhi, the Chief Minister of Delhi is. These are two different people, with two different constitutional responsibilities.)
http://www.sikhspectrum.com/082006/police.htmhttp://www.sikhspectrum.com/082006/police.htm
Police And Communal Riots: Interview with Vibhuti Narain Rai Yoginder Sikand Vibhuti Narain Rai is a senior Indian Police Service officer. He is the editor of a Hindi literary magazine, Vartaman Sahitya. He is a novelist, and his most well-known book is Shahr Mai Curfew (Hindi), which has been translated and published in English as 'Curfew in the City'. He is also the author of 'Combating Communal Conflicts--Perception of Police Neutrality During Hindu-Muslim Riots in India'. In this interview with Yoginder Sikand he talks about the role of the Indian police in handling communal riots.
It is sometimes suggested that the anti-Sikh violence in Delhi, after the assassination of Indira Gandhi on October 30, 1984, was the first pogrom of independent India. This argument is not plausible, for the differences are critical. To illustrate the major differences, one can do no better than cite from a most brilliant column written by a senior Indian journalist (8 Shekhar Gupta, “Pot is Blacker than the Kettle,” The Indian Express, April 6, 2002. ), who personally covered the 1984 anti-Sikh riots:
First of all, the ordinary mass of the Hindus in Delhi never got involved in the riots—many of us put on crash helmets, picked up hockey sticks and cricket bats, wickets, anything at night to run vigils in our streets so no “outsiders” could harm our Sikh neighbours. How many such stories have we heard from Gujarat? Second, once the government got its act together (within 72 hours) all rioting stopped, as if someone had blown the whistle and called off a game or a movie show. Third, and this is the most important distinction, there was shame, embarrassment, contrition, even fear on the faces of the top civil servants, police officers, Congressmen. They knew something terrible had happened. Rajiv Gandhi may have made his insensitive “when a tree falls earth shakes...” statement to rationalise the killings, but damage control started immediately.
....[A]s the riots were dying out on November 3 (Mrs. Gandhi had been assassinated on October 30) Delhi’s Lieutenant-Governor, P.G. Gavai, was fired. … The Station Head Officer (SHO) of Trilokpuri (police station) was removed on November 2. The police commissioner, Subhash Tandon, was replaced on November 12. So were Deputy Commissioner of Police (east), under whose jurisdiction Trilokpuri fell, Additional Police Commissioner (range), and Deputy Commissioner of Police (south). Within a month or so they were all facing departmental inquiries. Contrast this with what happened in Gujarat. Did any policeman get removed or punished for non-performance or complicity? Narendra Modi, on the other hand, moved out mainly those who had been effective, true and loyal to the uniform....
The Congressmen whose names surfaced or were even popularly mentioned in connection with the killings all paid the price. Political careers of H.K.L Bhagat, Jagdish Tytler and Sajjan Kumar never recovered from the taint of 1984 although nobody was ever convicted.... Isn’t it a bit different now when leading lights of the BJP go around talking of “Hindu consolidation,” of Modi having become a “Hindutva hero” or the likely electoral dividend of the killings?”8
"It is the success of impunity in the case of anti sikh pogrom that has fuelled Ram Janma Bhumi movement, demolition of Babri Masjid and subsequent anti muslim or anti christian pogroms in India. "
Hear hear! Well said. Riots against any local minority, in fact.
Modi started life as a Pracharak . How many other such individuals are public figures ? Practically none! Obviously he does an efiicient job of whatever he sets his mind to since he has got promoted quickly through the ranks. Even with all his talent for organisation and management he would not be where he is but for his detractors. People who abuse and accuse him are doing a wonderful job by making him larger than he actually could have become on his own merit alone. In fact he has been clearly identified as the chief impediment in way for a smooth succession by the Gandhi durbar. Queen mother is worried and heir apparent is staring blankly into space; courtiers however have swung into frentic action. More shrill the voices against Modi, more his support within the party and outside solidifies behind him. This can only be good for him. I do not know about Nandy but left to me I would translate all this Modi bashing in every language and syndicate it throughout India. This would provide a yeoman's service to Modi's campaign for 7 race course Road.
Why no apology from any muslim/psuedoseculars/scholars for burning "JUST" 59 Hindus???? more than 33 rascles have already been sentensed to either lifeterm or hanged for burning sabramati coach. Its been more than10 years, I am waiting....
A fantastic article for the Nandys and ilks:
www.swapan55.com/2012/04/timely-meditations-sit-report-clears.html
But, Swapan Dasgupta goes on to add: "This is not to suggest that the formidable opposition to Modi will wilt. On the contrary, we may witness a hardening of positions and an increase in the decibel levels of shrillness—sure signs that those who once dominated the discourse are now threatened and vulnerable. Sooner rather than later, the media too will begin to hum a different tune."
So, the volume and shrillness of the sickular gang will go up, before it mellows into oblivion.
R. SAROJA
Why are you comparing Gujarat with Holocaust giving Nuremburg trial example. Do you have any idea about the destruction caused by Hitler and how many people were killed by him. By all estimates, it was 6 million Jews. Add to this gypises, jehovah witness, homosexuals, physically and mentally handicapped. How can you compare this massive destruction with Gujarat where the army was on stand by mode on the very second day of riots and number of killed was not more than 1200, spare the 254 odd Hindus butchered as well.
Do you think Nuremberg trials killed antisemitism. Antisemitisim is as old as Judaism, the oldest monotheist religion in the wold survivng till date. No, it was not 1 year of sham trials that killed antisemtism. It was the fact that there were almost no Jews left in Germanic areas, central Europe. In Gujarat, the number of Muslims has only increased after riots.
As for turks in Germany, the game has just started. More than 200 immigrants have been killed in xenophobic attacks and only now Germany has acknowledged the presence of right wingers. Well the European game has jus started.
For abusing Nandy, trolls have a birth right to do it. Except for Hitler's analogy, the rest was piece was better to be ridiculed. The author wants Modi to visit Ajmer, Modi, the Hindu warrior who won't even wear the Muslim, read Arabic, skull cap. Well, if Nandy becomes Modi's psychatarist, I guess Modi and Nandy would be collaborating on the rest of advice columns.
Folks
If you disagree with Nandy so be it but, stop being abusive. Pl grow up!!! Once in while try to shed your prejudices & pre conceived thoughts. At least hopefully you may appreciate the “contra-view”. You don’t need to agree to it. Personally I respect him & agree to essence of the article. Cheers
Thank god you are not - And saved many lives.
author says Modi cannt go directly from CM to PM..
can rahul go directly from 10 Janpath to PM? can u pls answer..u psedo sickular scribbler (i cant call u a writer or author)
lol..the author says Modi should do penance like some pakistani did...
will muslims dopenance for destroying Hindu temples raping Hindu women, killing millions of Hindus, kashmir ethnic celansing by washing the dhotis of Hindus. first let muslims do penance then Hindus will...afterall muslims started it
Ashis you really need psychatrist help OR you should go to Jaipur Durgha for your mental recovery.Your analysis is full of BS.Muslims killed Hindus and Jafri wrongfully accused Modi and these Muslims goons are hiding behind congress and pseudo seculars people like you.Indian people pertcularly Hindu don't see any criminality in Modi except people like you try to potreyed Modi criminal infront of Muslims.
Thank God you're not.You all 'secularls' have paranoia and need help not Modi. You're good enough to go to Barkha Dutt 's weekly drama, 'We the jokers' and gossip about Modi. Temperory help.
''He should go to a dargah. Go to Ajmer Sharif and apologise. The Khwaja is supposed to be benevolent and forgiving.'' Nandy
Uff...Such stuck up ideas. If only going to places of worship would help, the whole world would become a better place. Give good administrration, build roads, schools, hospitals and win elections. Its that simple. Why bring the god into all this?
Emperor, NY US,
What a fine post ! I call this an intellegent analysis.
By the way, are you on twitter?
Modi need not visit Ajmer Shariff or any darga. Nor he needs to go out on a sadbhavana yatra. Let him look less haughty. Being a bit of contrite will do him world of good. And while at it he better be less pro-active in hounding those who tells their own story of 2002-3. Will extending a sincere hand of solace to those who has been ghettoised by the events of 2002-3 be expecting too much ?
The system will take care of the rest. If it is his destiny to be Prime Minister let him be. Only as of now he does not look to be. But time is on his side. Indian Prime Ministership is all about even handedly meeting the challanges of divergences & diparities, not steam-rolling. Narendra Modi is equally suitable , equally able as any other name that comes to the fore.
Sonia Gandhi did not apologise for the 1984 riots. According to web searches this is what comes up - "On the riots, Sonia Gandhi said she could ''understand'' the pain of Sikhs as she herself had experienced it, losing her husband Rajiv and mother-in-law Indira Gandhi that way."
there's no apology there. She made this statement in 1998 - 14 years after the incident. And she made it at an election rally following it up with these statements "''There is no use recalling what we have collectively lost. No words can balm that pain. Consolation from others always somehow sound hollow,'' she said.
''Three generations of my family have contributed in the fight for the country's independence. I ask you on their behalf to ensure victory to their dreams.''
Rahul Gandhi never apologised.
As for MMS, in 2005 - 21 years after the incident - he said "I have no hesitation in apologizing not only to the Sikh community but the whole Indian nation because what took place in 1984 is the negation of the concept of nationhood and what enshrined in our Constitution."
The general theme of the article seems to be that if riots are not televised and people apologise decades after the incidents, everything is hunky dory.
<< ...there has been an apology for the Sikh riots from the Congress party. Manmohan Singh is the prime minister partly because of this..>>
What Sikh riots? Not a single sikh was killed on 31st October, the day Mrs. Indira Gandhi was killed by her sikh bodyguards.During the night of October 31 and early morning of November 1, according to eye witness reports Congress (I) leaders including Sajjan Kumar, Lalit Maken , HKL Bhagat met with their local supporters and distributed weapons (uniformly sized iron rods) and money (Rs. 100 each), and a bottle of liquor in addition to kerosene and a highly inflammable chemical substance.According to Madhu Kishwar, "Many eyewitnesses confirm that the attackers were not so much a frenzied mob as a set of men who had a task to perform and went about it in an unhurried manner, as if certain that they need not fear intervention by the police or anyone else. When their initial attacks were repulsed, they retired temporarily but returned again and again in waves until they had done exactly what they meant to do – killed the men and boys, raped women, looted property and burnt houses. This is noteworthy because in ordinary, more spontaneous riots, the number of people injured is usually observed to be far higher than the number killed."
It was not a riot. It was a pogrom organized by Congress goons.
What apology? The then home minister Narasimha Rao delayed calling in Army. We had a farce of an enquiry commission (Rangnath Misra commission). Rao went on to become PM and Misra went on to become head of NHRC.
The subsequent elections were openly fought on communal lines by Congress(I). Remember the advts in Newspapers then?
Then there was talk of development, Computer savvy PM etc.
Can't you see the parallel with Gujarat situation? It is the success of impunity in the case of anti sikh pogrom that has fuelled Ram Janma Bhumi movement, demolition of Babri Masjid and subsequent anti muslim or anti christian pogroms in India.
If we are about to see an end to this impunity, it is because of tireless work of civil rights activists, that judicial system is finally coming out of slumber.
Nuremberg trials lasted for about a year. A clear unambiguous judgement has practically wiped out anti semetism from Germany. Not that they do not have right wing extremist grelements in Germany.. A few years back, when there were attacks on Turks, millions came out on streets, marching for peace.
>> "I share your concern for Kashmiri Pandits." - Anwaar
:-)
>> "Narendra Modi may have got a clean chit from the sit .... ... but this is a small peg on which the case for and against Modi rests. By itself this peg means very little. "
If it is so, can the sickular brigade stop harrassing the SIT chief please.
>> "To some extent, there has been an apology for the Sikh riots from the Congress party. "
Sounds good. Does Nandy mean to say that Modi must really execute a pogrom and then apologize. How many Muslims? Will 3,000 suffice? Bloody idiots!!
>> "But I am afraid that Narendra Modi has not even worn the right mask. "
For ten years, the sickulars and Mullah apologists have under-estimated Modi's political savvy and astuteness. They have not learned from their mistakes. While these jokers were busy barking at Modi's supposedly PM ambitions, he re-affirmed another stint in Gujarat by rebuilding his aura. Modi is smart enough to know that his turn comes in 2019, not 2014.
Agosuke, i'm sure a lot of us have wondered why Modi is so extensively covered. One wouldn't place all fault on Outlook though. Modi's mantra of 'high living, simple thinking' is very much a factor in the space he hogs. He's got an opinion about far too many things apart from his home state. A very recent example was his comment about the Indian Express story regarding troop movement. Interestingly, no other CM thought fit to comment on the issue (not that they cannot or should not). Add to it his ongoing battle to absolve himself from the riot stigma and his eye on the top chair, the media can't keep their hands off him.
Is there an issue of OUTLOOK without 'Modi' in recent past? Why Outlook is not thinking about publishing seperate magazine for Modi bashing?
SANTOSH JOHN SAMUEL
Sounds like Pope Pious' absolution for Holocaust and his tacit approval.
I really doubt the intelligence of high profile Modi haters. Instead of presenting the case of prosecution of Modi they end up showing themselves as the apologists of Congress.
I have still not seen a Modi bashing article that dosent talk in glory about the Congress. They end up in pre emptive defence of congress for all its sins rather than building a formidable case against Modi. No doubt these jokers lose all their cases in the courts.
The billions of dollars of black money that the ruling party has ensures that media houses are oiled well and such articles are routinely published in national media. But the paid canines end up fawning towards their paymasters rather than barking at the enemy for which they are actually employed for.
What position was Rajiv Gandhi holding when his mother was assassinated, and what specific responsibilities did he abrogate? " Zafar seth
Rajiv Gandhi was same evening administrated the oath of PM by Prez Gaini Jail Singh when Gandhi landed in Delhi .
So right PM to a Thana In-charge had abrogated their responsibilities.
And only Raeth shook for Sikhs .
" Modi was the Chief Minister of Gujarat during the pogrom, and was responsibe for policing and public order in Gujarat (a State subject under our Constitution). "
3000 thousands bullets were fired on Hindu rioters by Modi Police.One Hindu rioter killed for two Muslims killed .How could this happen when you all 10 times a day say that Modi was presiding the killings ??
Sir Zafar now please answer two simple questions ;
Q1.How many Hindu Rioters were killed in all the Riots right from 1947 to till now under Rule of Secuklar Govts ?? And how many Bullets fired ??
Question shifte dto proper Thread
Modi in Ajmer Sharif! Now that would be a sight. But what is he going to say?
‘Baba, I seek forgiveness. I never had such long-term plans back then. I would have been a lot more careful with my tongue when I directed the police officers to allow anger ventation by the Hindus. And those TV visuals really messed it up for me. And Teesta and the other anti-nationals and the sickular press have been after my hide for a long time. I've got a bit of help from the Tatas and the Ambanis, and now Time and my other friends in the US, but this damned blot ain't easy wash. Even the Sadhbhawna detergent has not proven effective. Baba, here's my list: A total reprieve from the courts, then a jump to the top of the BJP rung, Nitish, Biju and the rest endorsing me, the Muslims and the sickulars pardoning me (without my anti-sickular brothers feeling offence at this pardon), and an election result with absolute majority for the BJP. Baba, I know it's a difficult ask, but surely you are benevolent and forgiving.’
p.s. Whatever be the outcome of this prayer, Modi will remain the PM on the Outlook ‘Have Your Say’ forum. Maybe he’ll have to remain contended with the title of ‘The Most Likeliest PM Aspirant if He were not the Best Riot Administrator’.
To some extent, there has been an apology for the Sikh riots from the Congress party. Manmohan Singh is the prime minister partly because of this.
What a pathetic and disingenuous statement!
A good lesson for history students how to twist opportunitistic events to rewrite history. MMS (the regent) was chosen only because he was a docile clerk who can perform any duties that the Gandhis want without questioning or posing any element of risk to the dynasty.
Modi needs to make a gesture of spectacular repentance and apology for 2002.
Trust me, a nuanced apology (only to those who deserve it) is coming sometime before he becomes our PM. But not until the sickulars and media and pseudo intellectuals like Nandy hold him guilty for the riots. It will come after he is exonerated by the courts, and then he will show his benevolence even for those crooks who bayed for his blood for ulterior motives.
"To run an inclusive society, you first have to be an inclusive person yourself."
you meant like MMS, Anotony & co, - thanks but no thanks. Next sick_u_liar in line please.
The major problem of modi is not the deep hatred muslims have for him or the hostile media.Itys his own party which is highly fearful of his all encompassing popularity and administrative acumen.Once BJP accepts him as supreme leader i dont think he will face any obstacles on march to delhi
Article on Modi in outlook by Ashis Nandy. I think we donot need to really read the article to learn the contents.
Nandy gives the impression that he likes to wag his tail while talking!
He wants us to forget that the Delhi Riots proved conclusively that Sikh Lives are cheap in India: there were practically no convictions. Forget the crocodile tears.
Modi needs to do no more. He has already worked hard for the last ten years and given us double digit development. If he can replicate this service for the nation or not is largely irrelevant for us who live in Gujarat. We have the future here and now.
All analysis of Nandy are superficial.He failed to understand psyche of Indians.In Indian psyche government is Ma Bap they expect everything from government and when their expection not fulfilled they are giving votes to other party.Thia game Indian voters playing from last sixty years.If Modi accept the credulous advice of Nandy can he became national leader and lead to India?Modi bring some prosperity in hardworking and trade minded Gujarati because Gujarat was prosperous from middle age that is why Shivaji plundered Surat twice.I challenge to Modi please bring prosperity in U.P.There are many drawback of personality of Modi which will prevent him to lead India in future.He is arrogant,, his personality is repressive., he is dictator.How can Patnayak,Nitish,Akhilesh cooperate with him?Nandy must understand future of India will depend on allies with their cooperation central government run.
[[Modi should go] to Ajmer Sharif and apologise.]
Oh God...fainting with laughter...
You keep comparing Modi's responsibility for the Gujarat pogrom and Rajiv Gandhi's alleged responsibility for the anti-Sikh pogrom in Delhi in 1984.
Modi was the Chief Minister of Gujarat during the pogrom, and was responsibe for policing and public order in Gujarat (a State subject under our Constitution). What position was Rajiv Gandhi holding when his mother was assassinated, and what specific responsibilities did he abrogate?
Mr Azaad Khan @11D-How conveniently you have avoided mentioning your darling Mohammed Ali Jinnah, who put to shame even Hitler,by mass murder of Hindus and Sikhs?
More Sikhs were killedin an earlier avatar of this government & now an even more humungous contribution is the present government's go-ahead for EalamWar IV,in which thousands of innocent Tamils allegedly died.
In Gujarat 2002, the army was deployed within a day & the police shot almost 150 riters dead & stopped the blood-letting in a record 3 days,something no other government (even in the West) have achieved.
Kaun hain Maut Ki Saudagar ???
I am being victimized by the activists. Look at Hitler... he killed more people... even our neighbor Mahinda Rajapaksa has killed more Tamilians in Sri-Lanka...
Ramki,
>> When are the majority population of the valley of Kashmir going to apologise for their genocide and ethnic cleansing of minority kashmir valley pandits in 1989?
It is a legitimate question but unrelated to Modi. While ethnic cleansing is unacceptable and any murders are unforgivable, the official death figure of 219 does not make it a genocide. Over 50,000 Kashmiri Muslims have been killed between 1989 and 2001. I share your concern for Kashmiri Pandits.
Ashis Nandi must be ashamed to write such an article.He wants Modi to go to Ajmer and apologise for Gujarat riots.Will this fellow have the guts to ask the Muslims of Godhra who burnt alive 59 innocent Hindus,to go to a Hindu temple and apologise for their unprecedented brutality?People like Nandi should atleast know that praying at Darghas will be prohibited by Salafis before long.Does he not know that Charar-e-Shariff was burnt down by the extremist Muslims,which is an equally revered Dargha.So,when Muslims themselves will be forced to give up praying at Darghas, before long,why should Modi pray at Ajmer Dargha?Fossilised social scentists like Nandi should just keep quiet instead of suggesting such nonsence.
Anwaar >> Neither an abject apology nor visit to Ajmer will help Modi. People will see them just as attempts at political advancement. He can still maneuver himself to the top with his Machiavellian machinations, but if that happens it is bound to result in a disaster for the country.
When are the majority population of the valley of Kashmir going to apologise for their genocide and ethnic cleansing of minority kashmir valley pandits in 1989? They will not and they wont because fundamentalism is a way of life for the population of kashmir valley. And 23 years latter, we India still call ourself a secular nation, even as we are not doing anything to resettle the kashmir pandits in kashmir valley. THis is the biggest disaster that has happened to the country.
"Even if Modi wins all the cases and goes scot-free, the stigma of the riots will not go. The stigma will remain. Neither these cases, nor his internet presence, or being on the cover of Time, will matter in the long run. In Modi’s case, even without analysing his personality, one can say that his chances of being a major presence in national politics in India are doomed by his past."
Neither an abject apology nor visit to Ajmer will help Modi. People will see them just as attempts at political advancement. He can still maneuver himself to the top with his Machiavellian machinations, but if that happens it is bound to result in a disaster for the country.
Excellent article!
The Gandhi dynasty, after the Sikh riots, has ensured great security for itself by apologising for the violence, because they know and understand the transience of power. >>>
Really?! When did Rajiv, Sonia, Rahul apologize - can we have links to some newspaper article to corroborate the claim?
Congress chamchas' apologies on behalf of the clan - just like putting a chaddar on behalf of the clan to please their votebanks - don't count as apology.
In Februray 27th 2002, a large muslim mob surrounded the Sabarmati Express Train which was carrying Hindus. The mob was armed with petrol bombs, acid bombs and swords. The attackers poured petrol into the compartment and then set it afire. Two thousand people were standing on all sides of the compartment to prevent the karsevaks from running away and saving their lives from the fire. Hindus were literally caught between devil and the deep sea. There was fire inside and armed Muslims outside. 59 Hindus were burnt to death in a most horrifying manner. Many of the charred bodies were beyond recognition. The victims included 14 children, including a couple of siblings and also a couple of old women of above 65. They were all done to death in a most brutal manner. It was the only massacre happened in Gujarat in 2002. What followed was just riots between two communities. As per figures given by the Union Minister of State for Home Shriprakash Jaiswal, who belongs to the Congress Party, in Parliament on 11 May 2005, 790 Muslims and 254 Hindus were killed in the riots. This was in a WRITTEN REPLY to a question asked by a Congress member on the religion wise casualties in Gujarat after Godhra. The report placed the number of riot-affected widows at 919 and the number of children orphaned at 606. The UPA government gives these figures, and hence they themselves may be inflated. Out of the state’s 18,600 villages, 240 municipal towns, and 25 district headquarters, only 60 places saw riots. Only 40 out of the state’s 18,600 villages saw riots. Had the state government been involved in the riots-or wanted to encourage the riots-it could have created riots in 10,000 out of Gujarat’s 18,600 villages. This clearly shows that Gujarat riots were just riots and not "massacre" nor "pogrom" nor "genocide" as media would like to describe. ...
So your problem is that Modi should not have used the riots if at all he used the riot to win Elections because he did not use the precaution you enunciated . Very well sir .
( amended )