Apropos Bastion of Business: A Modish Affair, Modi takes tough decisions. Denying him merit on account of frivolous charges is not done—the only evidence against him is the word of certain people who say he convened a meeting at which police were told to go easy on Hindu rioters.
Hari, Chennai
Cry yourself hoarse, but 10 years on, despite all attempts to nail Modi, he is not even close to being charged!
Alakshyendra, Hyderabad
One way of gaining favour in the West is to be anti-Islamic. Hence Modi in Time.
Nasar Ahmed, Karikkudi
In certain areas of the Muslim-dominated old city of Hyderabad, no Hindu procession is allowed to be taken for fear of communal violence breaking out - the excuse trotted out by the police is that Muslims will be provoked. During Ganesh Chaturthi, processions are stoned from inside mosques, and the police simply won't enter these mosques because that would provoke Muslims. Posters are not allowed to be pasted on walls, because that would again provoke Muslims. So much for the oppressed Muslim!!!
>> I think our record of indigenous communal violence is a little broader than that. For eg, Bombay 1992-92
Ah but you were not talking about Bombay now, were you? Like all good jehadis, you kept your focus on "Gujarat-like pogroms".
And let's pretend that there were no recent damaging of Ram Naumi posters in Andhra, or stoning of a Ram Naumi procession in Gaya. Saying such things is a sure sign of communalism.
"Tau why would you support the equivalent, Hindutva, in India? '
Zafar
Tau -is above Religious identities and Religion .Only one friend here when cornered honours me with Sangh Ratan. But honestly by the way can you elaborate why and other Muslim friends are tounge tied about Waqf land loot ? Honestly it intrigues me .
2. My answere is No Hindu Rashtra !
But my simultaneously honest and humble request to Secus is don't provoke Hindus endlessly as they have started seeing Modi as the ultimate answer and solution for removing poverty,corruption ,endless discrimination against Hindus and Vote Bank Politics. Don't take Hindus granted any more .They are slowly but definitely changing .
The more you carry on this anti Modi campaign the more Hindus feel Modi is the ultimate answer for the past Historical injustices and humiliations .Isn't strange that Hindus now feel persecuted in India ?? But Hindus feel so .Don't fall for the loaded answers not all but a few Sanghis say so.Better see the stark reality on ground .
Tell me honestly can Muslims rise in life and social ladder without the co-operation of the Hindu majority ? Rulers are after your Votes and Hindus who can help you them you don't trust .So how the salvation will come for the Muslims ?? Kindly explain how ?? And ultimately once Hindus decide they will Vote Modi as PM.It will be sooner than later .
So not the old Tau Ghai but Farukis of India are hastening Hindu Rashtra . Please re-examine what you all are doing .
Zafar,
[[Arrey bhai, if you are trying to go to the UK to find justification for the rape and murder of Muslim women in Gujarat, then I think you've run out of sane arguments.]]
You cook up all sorts of excuses that point a finger at Hindu oppression for the backwardness of Indian Muslims in India, so naturally I cited examples from where Hindus are not a factor. If you interpret that as your victory and feel great about it, who am I to stop you?
@ AK Ghai - you seem to be making an argument that a national identity based on religion is problematic. I would agree with you - it's intrinsically corrupting and unstable. Tau why would you support the equivalent, Hindutva, in India? Regards
@ Kiran
[Only if they help Pakistani jihadis and burn trains! ]
I think our record of indigenous communal violence is a little broader than that. For eg, Bombay 1992-92. Where were the Pakistani jihadis or burning trains? But how many people (most of them Muslim) were killed anyway? And how many people were displaced, lost their savings and their livelihoods?
@ Alakshyendra
Arrey bhai, if you are trying to go to the UK to find justification for the rape and murder of Muslim women in Gujarat, then I think you've run out of sane arguments.
Peace
Perhaps Pakistan 99 % Muslim dominated country would have been one ?? Hein ji ??
Corrected
Hindus in India are a dominant majority and so Muslims feel threatened because they could be subjected to Gujarat-like "pogroms"."
erhaps Pakistan 99 % Muslim dominated country is one ?? Hein ji ??
"Five people were killed and dozens injured in a grenade attack and incidents of firing between rival Shia and Sunni groups in Gilgit city, the capital of the region, on Tuesday, the police. As the violence spread, a mob stopped several buses on the Karakoram Highway near the Sunni-dominated Chilas area, pulled out nine Shias and gunned them down, police said. Two jumped into a river and drowned. Two policemen were also injured in the attack. '
www.indianexpress.com/news/day-after-16-people-killed-in-sectarian-violence-curfew-imposed-in-gilgit/932682/
"Zafar, Hindus in India are a dominant majority and so Muslims feel threatened because they could be subjected to Gujarat-like "pogroms".
Only if they help Pakistani jihadis and burn trains!
Zafar, Hindus in India are a dominant majority and so Muslims feel threatened because they could be subjected to Gujarat-like "pogroms". What about the west? In countries like US, UK, and France to which many Muslims willingly migrated because of better economic opportunities and freedom, Muslims are still living in ghettos, refusing to let their women work, refusing to learn English, and indulging in honor killings. Is the reviled Hindu still responsible for their plight? A recent study in the UK concludes that South Asian Muslims are the worst among immigrants in terms of education and jobs. What gives?
But Kiran, I didn't hit you. Peace
Modi is higher than Obama in ranking as Dynamic Leader in a Poll conducted by Time Mag .
corrected
Heard on TV news that Modi is higher in ranking as Dynamic Leader in a Poll conducted by Time Mag .
Sayapa !
"@ Kiran
blah blah blah...yada yada yada..."
Peace bro! I dont want to sink deeper in your stupidity. When you didnt get the it-all-started-when-he-hit-me-back thing, I should've pulled my horses back right then!!
[Fear is what solidifies a voting block. That’s why you will find more cases of local block voting by Muslims in India than by Hindus] [So you do admit Muslims vote en-block]
Sometimes, locally, they do.
[whereas Hindus don’t.]
Sometimes Hindus do as well. Mostly they don’t feel the need to – but if you investigate I think you’ll find that the Kashmiri Pandits in Jammu do vote as a block – and frankly, that is unsurprising.
Locally castes may vote as blocks as well – but if the Yadav vote in UP goes to the SP and the Yadav vote in Bihar goes to the JD, then it’s difficult to talk about a pan-Indian Yadav block. I don’t think Muslim vote patterns are all that different from this.
And fear=voting block is not just expressed along religious lines.
In Mumbai the Maharashtrian vote originally solidified behind the Sena in response to the fear of being marginalised, or economically left behind, in Amchi Mumbai by other groups such as Gujaratis and/or South Indians. (And now by Bhaiyas.) It’s precisely that fear that originally led to violence, and the acceptance of violence as a somehow legitimate defence of Maharashtrian interests.
Sometimes it's expressed along caste lines as well - most recently in UP. A lot of OBC support for the SP is due to their fear of losing out their share of State funding to Dalits.
[BTW, what “fear” do Muslims have?]
That they will be killed, bhao. Which is a fear that the Gujarat pogrom, or the Bombay riots, and their respective aftermaths, has not diminished.
Fwiw, I don’t think the fear is always justified or rational, or even useful, but there you go.
[So if hindus are afraid, it’s because Sangh Parivar keeps “trying to make them afraid” but if Muslims are afraid, their mullahs and maulvis have nothing to do with it.]
Often they do. But mullah types have more immediately relevant raw material to work with, so to speak.
[You could say that the BJP aspires to keep Hindus afraid (of a nonexistent threat) and therefore united.] [Yeah, all the above stated reasons should make hindus trust muslims, not be afraid of them.]
All the reasons you gave *are* used to try and make Hindus afraid of Hindus. But the point is that making Hindus afraid of Muslims is difficult in most parts of India because in most parts of India Hindus are a dominant majority – ie they don’t really feel threatened.
(Hence attempts to whip up hysteria over bizarre claims along the lines of ‘love jihad’ – you can see why most Hindus don’t buy it, but where they do (Udipi), they vote for the BJP.)
Regards
@ RSM
Look – my issue here is not to defend HRW or Tehelka on principle – I don’t entirely agree with your view of them, but so what? What does it matter?
From the article you posted, which is on the whole quite balanced in tone:
http://www.southasiaanalysis.org/%5Cpapers9%5Cpaper891.html
“In the aftermath of the Godhra massacre of Hindus on February 27, 2002, it became evident to most that Gujarat had become a communal cauldron, that Chief Minister Narendra Modi willfully did not do enough to curb the violence that ensued after the massacre, and that members of radical Hindu groups such as the Vishwa Hindu Parishad (VHP) and the Bajrang Dal were involved in bloody attacks against Muslims. Worse, Modi promoted communal polarization in the state and won a landslide victory in the Gujarat assembly elections in December 2002 with a campaign playing on anti-Muslim fears and prejudice. Yet, some used extreme language to describe the post-Godhra situation in Gujarat…”
So my focus is not on the extreme language (that the article complains about), but on the substance of the rest of that quote.
Re Modi’s guilt/innocence – it hinges on what that wilful refusal to curb the violence consisted of – and were these acts of omission and commission specifically illegal.
Re other people’s ‘guilt’ – regardless of their religion - it hinges on their actions rather than on whether they are mentioned in HRW reports or not.
Our focus should be on actions rather than on whether random reports are one sided or not, and why they are this way, or why not - which is essentially a petty argument when compared to the responsibility for murder, rape, arson and displacement.
[I do not count convictions as the only measure of a fair trial] [Such cowardice when asked to substantiate your claim that convictions happened because trials were shifted out of Gujarat.]
Trials were shifted out of Gujarat because the Supreme Court felt, after review of facts, that they had not been properly conducted in the State. They were moved for a FAIR TRIAL, not a conviction at any cost (which would not be justice). So a fair trial should only result in conviction if the accused is guilty
[Facts are not established by assertion.]
Fair enough. So repeating that “Modi has been cleared by the SIT” does not make it a fact, right? Just as repeating “Modi was at that meeting where Sanjay Bhatt says he told the police not to stop the violence” doesn’t make it so either.
[For once listen to your own advice and stop lecturing others.]
But it’s so tempting, I can’t resist.
Kiran, too bad even you got sucked into it. You know once you enter Zafar's world, you never never exit. Now you will get stellar refutations by 'facts', logic and evidence from Tehelka, NDTV and Sabrang! And if you question his so called evidence, you will be accused of defending murderers! So brace yourself.
okay i couldnt let go of this one.
"Fear is what solidifies a voting block. That’s why you will find more cases of local block voting by Muslims in India than by Hindus”
So you do admit Muslims vote en-block whereas Hindus don’t. Good. Now I hope you remember your own argument after 2 minutes.
BTW, what “fear” do Muslims have? That Hindus will ask for division of India? Is it because of this fear that they bomb people and burn trains left, right, and center?
“and that’s also why the Sangh Parivar keeps trying to make Hindus afraid of the Muslims.”
So if hindus are afraid, it’s because Sangh Parivar keeps “trying to make them afraid” but if Muslims are afraid, their mullahs and maulvis have nothing to do with it.
Muslims, like a spoiled child, whined and whined for a seperate land and got it. As a result of which, millions were killed and million others were uprooted. All hindus were driven out of pakistan but in india, muslim population more than doubled. That justifies why muslims should be afraid of hindus!
Muslims have rights in india that hindus dont have. That justifies why muslims should be afraid of hindus! In one state where they are in majority, they have driven the minority hindus out. This has not happened in any Hindu majority state. That justifies why muslims should be afraid of hindus!
“You could say that the BJP aspires to keep Hindus afraid (of a nonexistent threat) and therefore united.”
Yeah, all the above stated reasons should make hindus trust muslims, not be afraid of them. hai na??
RSM and others, you guys really have patience to argue with a dim-wit like Zafar! A jalebi is straighter than his arguments!!
I admire you guys!!
RSM and others, you guys really have patience to argue with a dim-wit like Zafar!
>>[HRW reports have distortions, factual inaccuracies and lies] >>You mean they tell an inconvenient truth.
No I mean distortions and lies; take a crash course in English to know what these words mean!
>>But apparently I’m alone is being able to do this coherently.
Apparently, you are among the people who believe their own propaganda!
>>For example, in response to the rather damning (for Modi) HRW information you post:
I posted the link to show the credibility of HRW reports and also pasted few examples even though it was irrelevant to my original question. But you would know that if you read that entire article.
>> [Few examples of lies: Distortion 1) Human rights activists] >>Are any and all “Human rights activists” now to be conflated with HRW?
When HRW makes a statement like that in its report, it is simply endorsing the Human rights activists’ view. HRW doesn’t do it to fill pages!
>>By that (lack of) logic North India must be the same as North America. And South India the Same as South Africa. Vah! What original thinking!
Blah blah blah
>>Indeed, Miyan. But what does the SriKrishna report say in the section JUST before that sentence? Let me help you.
I not sure whether you are seriously this dumb or you are dishonest. The CONTEXT here is that the HRW report suggests that Muslims just held innocent DEMONSTRATIONS TARGETTING the government. But the facts are that they were the first to come out and resort to violence. Only the blind can miss this subterfuge. So, your quotes stating what happened before or after or what were the triggers are IRRELEVANT!
>>What a difference taking a sentence out of context makes!
The context was HRW’s glossing over Muslim violence which you feign to ignore.
>>[Your issue was biased manner of response to violence and follow –up.] >>I posted information, fro HRW – and because you couldn’t disprove it you actually tried to smear HRW with some clumsy straw man argument re ‘human rights activists’. How fair or logical was that on your part?
First of all, your info on HRW was irrelevant to my original question. Second, you posted Sachar not HRW on the issue of post riot follow-up. You are not even consistent about such a small point. Third, HRW reports are biased and motivated is clear from the link I posted which you CHOSE TO IGNORE. Fairness and logic and consistency is just not in your DNA.
>>I do not count convictions as the only measure of a fair trial – and frankly, neither should you.
Such cowardice when asked to substantiate your claim that convictions happened because trials were shifted out of Gujarat. You are such a hypocrite!
>>As for WHERE the convictions took place – remember, the Supreme Court ordered the re-opening and trial under supervision of about 2000 cases IN Gujarat. Hardly a vote of confidence in the GoG.
If only repeating like a stuck record made a point.
>>Judge for yourself whether they should have been retried in Gujarat.
Typical, the question is something and the answer is something else!
>>http://www.tehelka.com/story_main52.asp?filename=Ne100312INDICTMENTS4.asp >>“THE SC ordered the reopening of 2,000-odd cases, which were closed by the police without proper probes. But the apex court didn’t closely follow up on the reopened cases as a result of which most of them were again closed without meeting the ends of justice.”
This is an opinion, an opinion of Tehelka. Sad that you endlessly rant on Outlook forums but can’t differentiate between fact and opinion. The other opinion can be that the SC initially succumbed to allegations, propaganda and public pressure and the fact that 2000 cases were closed again showed that initial allegations were false. You know what they say about opinions don’t you?
>>[Haren Pandya’s murder] >>He’s been killed. Not in dispute.
Irrelevant!
>>His FATHER has said he believes his son’s murder was political. Again, not in dispute – his father has said that.
His father’s beliefs do not constitute as FACT just as the belief of Moses parting the sea does not constitute fact.
>>Haren Pandya spoke with Tehelka and said that Modi had ordered the police to let the violence continue and not stop it.
Haren Pandya is dead! He provided no evidence. He was not present in the meeting. His claims are hearsay (you are too lazy to check the meaning). You accuse me of defending of rapists and murderers but don’t you have any shame latching on to someone who is himself accused of leading mobs just because it suits your per-conceived conclusions.
>>I know. Truth. Facts. Logic. Consistency. How can you be expected to deal with these and still defend your guy Modi? HOW?!!! It is very unfair….
As I have shown so far, truth, facts, logic and consistency do not exist in your DNA
>>Well what else do you think you’re doing when you defend the BJP and VHP wrt their role in the Gujarat pogrom?
Typical! Answer a question with a question. Lets recall: “But how does that make him similar to Zia? Z: Are you saying Modi doesn’t wear pants like Zia??”
I am not defending anyone! I am asking for specific evidence. I know VHP was involved so was the BJP, so was the Congress and so were millions of citizens. I am asking for evidence that it was all well planned and orchestrated by MODI and the BJP. Only an intellectual and logically challenged person will construe this as defending rapists and murderers!
>>What else do you think you are doing when you ignore evidence and try to argue for giving them the benefit of far more than reasonable doubt. (Those phone records during the Gulberg massacre, for example. What have you got to say about that?)
You have no clue what evidence means. There is no evidence that Ehsaan Jafri called Modi. In your world evidence is Tehelka, NDTV, HRW Sabrang. In the real world you would be laughed at!
>>Actually, I think you’ll find that I’m just consistent.
Facts are not established by assertion. I wish somebody had told you this in school.
>>Also, I know how to have a civil discussion with someone with whom I disagree.
You can’t claim to be civil by accusing others of defending rapists and murders without evidence.
>>Two things you could profit from yourself, just saying.
For once listen to your own advice and stop lecturing others. You are a party to the debate not the judge!
@ Irreverent
[Model School is a public school. Not sure about others, but will give you the benefit of doubt.]
Is it?
http://www.asklaila.com/listing/Ahmedabad/Juhapura/Model+English+School/uoxubJzh/
Looks like an English medium school that prepares student of the State Board exams. Doesn’t sound like a Government run school at all.
So right now – no publicly funded schools in Juhapura (and area with a significantly lower socioeconomic demographic than surrounding areas, and therefore one would have thought greater need).
[And yes, the Juhapura population has doubled over the past decade. There must be something exciting about that slum to attract so many immigrants.]
People aren’t being raped and murdered there just because they’re Muslims. Don’t underestimate that as a drawing card.
[Union Bank Juhapura branch.]
Union Bank is majority owned by the Central Govt : - )
Zero out of three, Sir. Very poor showing on your part.
[HRW reports have distortions, factual inaccuracies and lies]
You mean they tell an inconvenient truth.
[you are not the only one with the ability to cut and paste.]
But apparently I’m alone is being able to do this coherently. For example, in response to the rather damning (for Modi) HRW information you post:
[Few examples of lies: Distortion 1) Human rights activists]
Are any and all “Human rights activists” now to be conflated with HRW?
By that (lack of) logic North India must be the same as North America. And South India the Same as South Africa. Vah! What original thinking!
[Distortion 2) During the week following the events in Ayodhya, Muslims held public demonstrations in the streets of Bombay, targeted not against Hindus, but against the government, which had failed to prevent the destruction of the mosque. Fact: As the Srikrishna Report notes, from December 7 onwards, “large mobs of Muslims came on the streets and there was recourse taken to violence without doubt.”]
Indeed, Miyan. But what does the SriKrishna report say in the section JUST before that sentence? Let me help you.
http://sabrang.com/srikrish/vol1.htm
From which:
i) News of demolition of Babri Masjid spread by 1430 hours on 6th December 1992. The cry of danger to Islam reverberated in the air. The Muslim fundamentalists seized this opportunity to aggressively propagate that Islam was in imminent danger…
ii) The irresponsible act of the Hindutva parties in celebrating and gloating over the demolition of Babri structure was like twisting a knife in the wound…The Muslims protested, and protested angrily on the streets. …The police mishandled the situation and by their aggressive posture turned the peaceful protests into violent demonstrations…
It is significant that the mobs were not armed, not even with stones and sticks, though they were angry and wanting to vent their spleen against anyone in authority. This situation was misdiagnosed, mishandled and turned messier.
iii) At this juncture the Hindus had nothing to complain and should have left the matter to be dealt with by the police as a problem of law and order. It is unfortunate that even at this stage the activists of Bharatiya Janata Party and Shiv Sena jumped into the fray, and escalated communal passion, as seen from their act of stopping the vehicles on roads in the jurisdiction of V.P. Road Police Station…
v) In the jurisdiction of Deonar, there was a sharp counter–reaction by Muslims who stoned the house of a local Bharatiya Janata Party leader. The situation was getting uglier with attacks on Hindu temples in this area. Efforts of the police to control the situation brought forth forceful violent reaction from Muslims against them. Large–scale firing resulted, which perhaps justified to quell the violent riots, was construed as an unwarranted act of suppression by police of what the violent Muslim elements thought was their legitimate protest.
B) 7th December 1992
i) From 7th December 1992 onwards there was a qualitative transformation in the situation. Large mobs of Muslims came on the streets and there was recourse taken to violence without doubt….
What a difference taking a sentence out of context makes!
[Your issue was biased manner of response to violence and follow –up.]
I posted information, fro HRW – and because you couldn’t disprove it you actually tried to smear HRW with some clumsy straw man argument re ‘human rights activists’. How fair or logical was that on your part?
[prove to me that all the convictions happened in those 10 cases moved outside Gujarat.]
I do not count convictions as the only measure of a fair trial – and frankly, neither should you.
As for WHERE the convictions took place – remember, the Supreme Court ordered the re-opening and trial under supervision of about 2000 cases IN Gujarat. Hardly a vote of confidence in the GoG.
[How many of those convictions happened in those 2000 cases?]
Judge for yourself whether they should have been retried in Gujarat.
http://www.tehelka.com/story_main52.asp?filename=Ne100312INDICTMENTS4.asp
“THE SC ordered the reopening of 2,000-odd cases, which were closed by the police without proper probes. But the apex court didn’t closely follow up on the reopened cases as a result of which most of them were again closed without meeting the ends of justice.”
[Haren Pandya’s murder]
He’s been killed. Not in dispute. His FATHER has said he believes his son’s murder was political. Again, not in dispute – his father has said that.
Haren Pandya spoke with Tehelka and said that Modi had ordered the police to let the violence continue and not stop it. That is the only part that you can say is debatable. Have you seen the evidence?
[Telelka again!]
I know. Truth. Facts. Logic. Consistency. How can you be expected to deal with these and still defend your guy Modi? HOW?!!! It is very unfair….
[ Show me just ONE instance where I have defended rapist and murderers.]
Well what else do you think you’re doing when you defend the BJP and VHP wrt their role in the Gujarat pogrom? What else do you think you are doing when you ignore evidence and try to argue for giving them the benefit of far more than reasonable doubt. (Those phone records during the Gulberg massacre, for example. What have you got to say about that?)
[What I truly do not understand is why.] [ you are intellectually too damn shallow!]
Actually, I think you’ll find that I’m just consistent. Also, I know how to have a civil discussion with someone with whom I disagree. Two things you could profit from yourself, just saying.
[you give Muslims a free pass even through it is a fact that the community has always tended to vote as a block since before independence]
You know, locally this may be arguable, but across the country it isn’t. You could say the same about the Yadav vote, or the Dalit vote, or the Lingayat vote.
(Also worth noting that they didn’t vote at all – nobody did – under the Nizams in Hyderabad State. So….)
[even leading to the coining of the term votebanks. And yet, you conclude that an "aspirational" (whose aspiration BTW?) ]
The BJP’s aspiration. That’s sort of the whole point of political Hindutva. Why do you think Advani did all those Rath Yatras, for tourism?
[even though it has been pretty well established that Hindus can never be made to vote as a block -- they are too divided along caste, community, and regional lines.]
Yes, see, I think that you could say the same about Indian Muslims.
[As I said before, you're trying to establish equivalence where there is none.]
So what you’re asking for is a free pass for Hindutva? If we don’t give one to jihad (and we don’t) why should we give one to Hindutva?
[Why do Hyderabadi Muslims cling on to reactionaries citing the anti-Razaakar backlash?]
I’m not from Hyderabad, but would hazard a guess that they vote that way because they’re in a minority and frightened of what a backlash dominated party might do to them.
[Why don't Hindus vote in reactionaries in response to the violence Razakaars inflicted on them? That's the point I've been making all along.]
Because Hindus are in the majority, and would never elect a party that controlled the Government and which condoned, or even slyly encouraged, violence against Hindus.
Hindus (the vast rational majority) know this will never happen, and their votes are not driven by fear.
Fear is what solidifies a voting block. That’s why you will find more cases of local block voting by Muslims in India than by Hindus, and that’s also why the Sangh Parivar keeps trying to make Hindus afraid of the Muslims. You could say that the BJP aspires to keep Hindus afraid (of a nonexistent threat) and therefore united.
>> "Except pogroms, where apparently he is fine with being community specific."
That is just an allegation. Anyway, if the Mullahdom refrains from supporting terrorists and stops burning trains, lot of their problems will go away. The Mullah apologists must know that everyone's patience has limits. Too bad that the Hindus of Gujarat retaliated.
>> "Eight years after the violence?"
Why? Is he supposed to meet everyone in every slum? Anyway, why is the local Congress MLA, a big name in Gujarat, not held accountable for the Juhapura mess?
>> "But how many of these are PUBLIC services provided by the Govt for the poor? "
Model School is a public school. Not sure about others, but will give you the benefit of doubt. And yes, the Juhapura population has doubled over the past decade. There must be something exciting about that slum to attract so many immigrants.
>> "Courtesy of Modi?"
Yes. Ask anyone in the Union Bank Juhapura branch.
>> "By Modi?"
No. Imam Bukhari!!
>>Here is an excellent summary of information
Wrong answer! I asked you what you have measured it against and you cut and paste HRW report! HRW reports have distortions, factual inaccuracies and lies and hence finds credibility only amongst people who see these as a virtue. And you are not the only one with the ability to cut and paste.
Few examples of lies:
Distortion 1) Human rights activists maintained that the arrests were meant to deflect attention from Hindu hardliners' campaign of anti-Christian violence. (Emphasis added) Fact: Police investigations revealed that Deendar Anjuman, a Muslim terrorist group with links to Pakistan’s Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI), confessed that its members were involved in carrying out the bomb blasts.
Distortion 2) During the week following the events in Ayodhya, Muslims held public demonstrations in the streets of Bombay, targeted not against Hindus, but against the government, which had failed to prevent the destruction of the mosque. Fact: As the Srikrishna Report notes, from December 7 onwards, “large mobs of Muslims came on the streets and there was recourse taken to violence without doubt.”
Distortion 3) Chapter 5 of the report, titled, “Attacks Across the Country” includes a section on the infamous rapes of nuns in the Jhabua district of Madhya Pradesh. HRW manages to find a way to blame the VHP and the BJP for it, despite the fact that the Madhya Pradesh police found that that many of those involved were Christians. Fact: Known to all.
So try again!
>> [Did Hindus get efficient distribution of funds and good roads?] >>More broadly
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sachar_Committee_Report
Wrong answer again! Your issue was biased manner of response to violence and follow –up. You are being simply dishonest by linking Sachar report with talks about general Muslim backwardness across India.
>>http://islamicvoice.com/November2009/MUSLIMEDUCATION/
Again what part of this report has anything to do with post riots response? Go to ANY state nad check out ANY Muslim ghetto, do a comparison and then come back!
>>By the Supreme Court moving ten cases outside Gujarat
Instead of yapping mindlessly, prove to me that all the convictions happened in those 10 cases moved outside Gujarat.
>>and ordering more then two thousand cases to be re-tried under supervision.
How many of those convictions happened in those 2000 cases?
>>Not because of sincere and unbiased Gujarat State prosecutors, that’s for sure.
Sure only for the people who are averse to facts
>>If you see a video of someone admitting a crime, that may or may not be legally admissible in court, but it is certainly not HEARSAY.
First, you still never wonder why they are not legally admissible but good enough to convince you. Second, you asserted involvement of the state on the basis of claims made in the sting. That’s HEARSAY!
>>[Haren Pandya’s murder] >>This is absolute bullshit! You don’t know when to stop, do you?
http://www.tehelka.com/story_main11.asp?filename=ts031205Who_Killed.asp
Dear god! Telelka again! Please check out the meaning of the word hearsay in the dictionary.
>>I am not defending rapists and murderers, you are.
You are a liar of the worst kind! Show me just ONE instance where I have defended rapist and murderers. And if you can’t just shut your trap!
>> If you think that gives me the high moral ground
I don’t! You also seem to have comprehension issues. In fact I think you lack morals.
>>– keep in mind that I didn’t demand it, you ceded it by your own choice. What I truly do not understand is why.
You are one arrogant moron. You will not understand a lot of things simply because you are intellectually too damn shallow!
[[Actually the vote bank argument certainly holds with Hindutva in India wrt 'the Hindu vote' - at least when it comes to aspiration. ]]
Zafar, you give Muslims a free pass even through it is a fact that the community has always tended to vote as a block since before independence, even leading to the coining of the term votebanks. And yet, you conclude that an "aspirational" (whose aspiration BTW?) Hindu votebank exists, even though it has been pretty well established that Hindus can never be made to vote as a block -- they are too divided along caste, community, and regional lines. As I said before, you're trying to establish equivalence where there is none.
[[Apart from your hometown of Hyderabad which manages to elect some real reactionary bizarros, I don't think Muslim majority districts in India (Murshidabad, North Kerala) elect religious parties. (Correct me if I'm wrong. Wrt Hyderabad, a lot of that is, imho, a reaction to the anti-razakar backlash.]]
Why do Hyderabadi Muslims cling on to reactionaries citing the anti-Razaakar backlash? Why don't Hindus vote in reactionaries in response to the violence Razakaars inflicted on them? That's the point I've been making all along.
[How many slum ghettos in the country have even one high school?!! ]
How many have a PUBLIC high school? I don’t know. Though as you say:
[If you cared to visit Juhapura instead of puking from sickular sources, you will find: FD Higher Secondary School, National School, Model English High School, SPRAT Foundation.]
Yes, I also saw that wikipedia thing
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juhapura
Institutions . Shanti Juniors Pre-shool by Chiripal Gruop run by Mr. S R Pathan 9099044115 • Dawat-e-Islami • Muhaddis E Azam Mission • Amena Khatun General Hospital By Mohammedi Charitable Trust • Shantiniketan Vidyalaya • Hazrat Pir Mohammad Shah Hospital by the Iqraa Charitable Foundation • F. D. Higher Secondary School • The National School in Juhapura • The New Age School • Model English High School • Carevan Primary School • Crescent English School • SPRAT's ASK CARAVAN Holy Shrines • Hazrat Ahmed Ganjbaksh • Hazrat Baba Ali Sher • Hazrat Haji Baba • Hazrat Makhdum Shah
But how many of these are PUBLIC services provided by the Govt for the poor? How many of these are charities (religious or otherwise)? The existence of private schools and charitable foundations doesn’t really address the Govt’s failure in this area. (In fact quite the opposite. How many of these have names that will get neurotic types complaining about madrasas? Be honest.)
[Now, something more that the sickular bigots will refuse to admit: Modi is known for not indulging in any programs that are community-specific.]
Except pogroms, where apparently he is fine with being community specific.
[Juhapura is a recent exception. In 2010, Modi personally visited the area and promised to look into the grievances.]
Eight years after the violence?
I’m sure he’s a busy guy, but don’t you think eight years shows a certain level of disinterest? (And the timing is a bit matlabi, given his PM ambitions. ??)
[Since then, two banks (one of them destroyed during riots) have been operationalized.]
Courtesy of Modi?
[Two shopping mall projects have been launched.]
By Modi?
[Modi inaugrated the SPRAT program for micro-scholarships targeted apecifically for the area.]
??
Does this have anything to do with the SPRAT’s ASK Caravan Holy Shrines listed above?
[I could go on, but that that is unlikely to change the perception so carefully nurtured by your pied pipers.]
For some reason you seem to think that I delight in reporting failure. I would much rather report success, even if it’s hard won and against the odds:
http://news.in.msn.com/exclusives/it/article.aspx?cp-documentid=5867464
Gujarat riot survivors tailor-make their lives Needlework has rehabilitated many displaced women of Sardarpura. [in Juhapura]
And it shows change for the better, both for Muslims and Hindus (and presumably others) in Ahmedabad. But it’s really no thanks to the Mod Govt.
>> "Though Juhapura has a population of around 2.5 lakh, with 6,000 added to this figure every year, there are only four government primary schools and not a single government high school in the area"
How many slum ghettos in the country have even one high school?!! If you cared to visit Juhapura instead of puking from sickular sources, you will find: FD Higher Secondary School, National School, Model English High School, SPRAT Foundation.
Now, something more that the sickular bigots will refuse to admit:
Modi is known for not indulging in any programs that are community-specific. Juhapura is a recent exception. In 2010, Modi personally visited the area and promised to look into the grievances. Since then, two banks (one of them destroyed during riots) have been operationalized. Two shopping mall projects have been launched. Modi inaugrated the SPRAT program for micro-scholarships targeted apecifically for the area. I could go on, but that that is unlikely to change the perception so carefully nurtured by your pied pipers.
>> "If you see a video of someone admitting a crime, that may or may not be legally admissible in court, but it is certainly not HEARSAY."
The bottomline is that Tehelka failed to provide the complete video for the text transcripts it released with such fanfare. The court did not even consider the spycam videoshots for further examination as the issues of lip sync were too evident. Even the manufactured evidences (like Tehelka tapes) by the sickular bigots were of such pathetic standards that one can only wonder where all the petro-dollar fundings are going.
[What have you measured it against to prove that there was bias – how are you so sure it was bias and not incompetence?]
Here is an excellent summary of information
http://www.hrw.org/news/2012/02/24/india-decade-gujarat-justice-incomplete
(New York) – Authorities in India’s Gujarat state are subverting justice, protecting perpetrators, and intimidating those promoting accountability 10 years after the anti-Muslim riots that killed nearly 2,000 people, Human Rights Watch said today. The state government has resisted Supreme Court orders to prosecute those responsible for the carnage and has failed to provide most survivors with compensation…
In the past decade, increasing evidence has emerged of the complicity of Gujarat state authorities in the anti-Muslim violence, Human Rights Watch said. In 2002, Human Rights Watch, in its report on the riots, quoted a police officer who said that there were no orders to save Muslims. Human Rights Watch also reported that the government’s political supporters had threatened and intimidated activists campaigning for justice….
Officials of the Gujarat state government, led by Chief Minister Narendra Modi of the Hindu nationalist Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP), which is serving its third term running the state government in Gujarat, failed to conduct serious investigations and obstructed justice. State courts dismissed many cases for lack of evidence after prosecutors effectively acted as defense counsel or witnesses turned hostile after receiving threats.
State police failed to investigate senior BJP leaders despite telephone records proving their presence at the scene of the riots in Naroda Patia and Naroda Gaam, and witness testimony that these senior leaders provided the mob with lethal weapons and instigated attacks on Muslims.
It was only in March 2009, after the Supreme Court-appointed Special Investigation Team took over the inquiry, that two leaders, Mayaben Surendrabhai Kodnani, a minister in the state cabinet, and Jaideep Patel, a leader of the Hindu militant group Vishwa Hindu Parishad, were arrested for aiding and abetting a mob that killed 105 people, injured several others, destroyed property, and sexually assaulted women. Both are still on trial…
“Modi has acted against whistleblowers while making no effort to prosecute those responsible for the anti-Muslim violence,” said Ganguly. “Where justice has been delivered in Gujarat, it has been in spite of the state government, not because of it.”
In one major trial, of those accused of attacking Bilkis Yakub Rasool Patel and her family, the Supreme Court found that intimidation of witnesses and the police bias in favor of the accused were so strong it transferred the case from Gujarat to Maharashtra….
On February 21 the Supreme Court criticized the Gujarat government for initiating a probe against Setalvad for her alleged role in a case of illegal exhumation of the bodies of the 2002 riot victims. The court said it was a “100 percent spurious case to victimize" her and that bringing such a case “does no credit to the state of Gujarat in any way.”
“In addition to ensuring that the top officials in the Gujarat state government involved in the riots are brought to justice, Indian courts need to expedite remaining cases and protect activists,” Ganguly said. “Ten years on, India owes it to the victims of the Gujarat riots to end the culture of impunity and prosecute those responsible for this open wound on the country’s reputation.”
[Did Hindus get efficient distribution of funds and good roads?]
More broadly
“In the field of literacy the Committee has found that the rate among Muslims is very much below than the national average….Muslim parents are not averse to mainstream education or to send their children to affordable Government schools. The access to government schools for children of Muslim parents is limited….
“There is a clear and significant inverse association between the proportion of the Muslim population and the availability of educational infrastructure in small villages. Muslim concentration villages are not well served with pucca approach roads and local bus stops. “
Note – public schools, public transport, roads are all public services.
Specifically
http://islamicvoice.com/November2009/MUSLIMEDUCATION/
“Ahmedabad Muslims are deprived of the facilities for education and other civic amenities. Though this is evident from a cursory look at Juhapura, the biggest ghetto of Muslims in Ahmedabad, a survey by NGO, Sadbhav Mission has said it in so many words.
“Though Juhapura has a population of around 2.5 lakh, with 6,000 added to this figure every year, there are only four government primary schools and not a single government high school in the area, said Prof. Vipin Tripathi, a representative of the Sadbhav Mission….
[And how do think over hundred convictions happened if prosecutors were biased?]
By the Supreme Court moving ten cases outside Gujarat and ordering more then two thousand cases to be re-tried under supervision. Not because of sincere and unbiased Gujarat State prosecutors, that’s for sure.
[These are not evidence but accusations and now accusations by discredited parties who file false affidavits.]
If you see a video of someone admitting a crime, that may or may not be legally admissible in court, but it is certainly not HEARSAY.
[Haren Pandya’s murder] [This is absolute bullshit! You don’t know when to stop, do you?]
“On June 7, 2002, Sreekumar was asked by PK Mishra, Modi’s principal secretary, to find out which minister in the Modi Cabinet had met an independent citizen’s tribunal that included former Supreme Court Chief Justice VR Krishna Iyer. Mishra told Sreekumar that Haren Pandya, the then revenue minister, was suspected to be the one involved in the matter. Sreekumar was given the mobile number 9824030629 and told to obtain its call details. Pandya reportedly told the tribunal that the post-Godhra massacres were orchestrated by Modi, his officials and members of the Sangh Parivar.
“On June 12, 2002, Mishra was told by Sreekumar that the minister suspected to have met the commission was none other than Haren Pandya. Sreekumar, however, refused to submit this information in writing. He said it was a sensitive matter and not connected with the charter of duties. Further call details of the number were handed over by OP Mathur, IGP (Administration and Security). It was learnt that Haren Pandya used this mobile.
“On March 26, 2003, Haren Pandya was assassinated and his father Vithalbhai Pandya said that his son’s assassination was “a political murder”. Speaking to Tehelka, he blamed Modi for Pandya’s murder. So embittered was Vithalbhai that he contested the Gandhinagar Lok Sabha against LK Advani, but lost.”
[You pretend to take the high moral ground and suggest others lack it without being able to prove it. That reeks of arrogance!]
I am not defending rapists and murderers, you are. If you think that gives me the high moral ground – keep in mind that I didn’t demand it, you ceded it by your own choice. What I truly do not understand is why.
>> Al, Zafar reminds me so much of Kumar
Kumar is a little bit smarter, and a little bit more honest.
>> Also like Jinnah and Bhutto and basically most Pakistani politicians. Modi is working the two nation theory while the rest of India has let it go.
You missed the operative part of my post about your opinions being crap.
>> But you are defeding Modi and the Hindutvadi rapists and killers
No. I am not. I'm also not responsible for your stupidity. You can blame your Madrassa education for it.
>> Technology is actually helping to indict them
Apparently, technology seems to succeed only in Gujarat and not elsewhere. Is that also due to Modi?
>>That said, there is ample evidence that the State's machinery responded in a biased manner at the time of the violence, and that it has been consistently biased in its follow up
What have you measured it against to prove that there was bias – how are you so sure it was bias and not incompetence? Is this conclusion a reflection of your own bias?
>>(distribution - or failure to distribute - rehabilitation funds, provision of roads and schools, public prosecution of communal violence cases, etc).
Did Hindus get efficient distribution of funds and good roads? And how do think over hundred convictions happened if prosecutors were biased?
>>There is ample evidence (just check out those NDTV reports)
Is this your evidence?? After all the prodding and requesting, this is what you come up with? No wonder you argue in circles.
>>Complicity of the State machinery - we have gone over and over accounts of the police refusing to help (at best) Muslim victims at the time of violence and then refusing to accurately register FIRs in a way that didn't hinder prosecution.
These are not evidence but accusations and now accusations by discredited parties who file false affidavits.
>>There are those Tehelka sting videos of people admitting their role and the role of the State Govt.
Since when does hearsay become evidence? Many of Tehelka’s sting videos contradict facts on the ground. Don’t you ever wonder why this irrefutable evidence never figured in the court cases?
>>There is Haren Pandya's murder by his own party after he stated that they were complicit in the violence.
This is absolute bullshit! You don’t know when to stop, do you?
>>Re Modi: there is a soon to be release SIT report (and amicus curiae report) on whether Modi himself was culpable. Till then...wait. Then you can argue with the report, based on the facts the report cites.
Why should I wait? It has never stopped you from drawing conclusions and giving sermons.
>>Now here's my question for you: do you really want our country to be run in a manner where rape and murder (by whomever, of whomever) is swept under the table
You ask the wrong question. If rapes and murders were swept under the table, 100 odd convictions would not have happened. So you start off with an assertion which is demonstrably false and then proceed to give moral lectures.
>>- in the name of Ram Rajya, no less?
Show me who claimed the riots and consequences in the name of Ram Rajya. This kind of argument may work in your world, but here you have to establish it first.
>>That's what I truly don't understand. What do you want for India, and do you think that ignoring rape and arson and murder by some people is going to achieve this for the country - no matter how appealing the rest of their ideology is to you?
You know what your problem is? You assume too many things without having the habit of backing them up! You pretend to take the high moral ground and suggest others lack it without being able to prove it. That reeks of arrogance!
I know that there were Congressmen involved in the violence in Gujarat. I also know that every single BJP rep was not elbow deep in Muslim blood and gore. Life is NOT that neat. That said, there is ample evidence that the State's machinery responded in a biased manner at the time of the violence, and that it has been consistently biased in its follow up (distribution - or failure to distribute - rehabilitation funds, provision of roads and schools, public prosecution of communal violence cases, etc). There is ample evidence (just check out those NDTV reports) that the VHP and Bajrang Dal were (perhaps because they were organised, and prepared) essentially running the show when it came to violence.
At the end of the day, the BJP (and Modi) were running the State - the fact that there were also communal Congressmen doesn't change that fact, or that balance of power (and responsiblity). Hence: failure of Raj Dharma.
Complicity of the State machinery - we have gone over and over accounts of the police refusing to help (at best) Muslim victims at the time of violence and then refusing to accurately register FIRs in a way that didn't hinder prosecution. There are those phone records revealing Ministers and party members interacting with the police during riots, even though they denied doing this. There are those Tehelka sting videos of people admitting their role and the role of the State Govt. There is Haren Pandya's murder by his own party after he stated that they were complicit in the violence.
Re Modi: there is a soon to be release SIT report (and amicus curiae report) on whether Modi himself was culpable. Till then...wait. Then you can argue with the report, based on the facts the report cites.
Now here's my question for you: do you really want our country to be run in a manner where rape and murder (by whomever, of whomever) is swept under the table - in the name of Ram Rajya, no less? That's what I truly don't understand. What do you want for India, and do you think that ignoring rape and arson and murder by some people is going to achieve this for the country - no matter how appealing the rest of their ideology is to you?
[Islamism, Jihad or whatever else you label it is a proven ideology that has caused destruction worldwide,]
Yes. It absolutely has. I do not defend it.
[but more so in a country like India because the state for the sake of political expediency, i.e. vote bank politics has always treated it with kid gloves. Hindutva is nowhere close in comparison]
Actually the vote bank argument certainly holds with Hindutva in India wrt 'the Hindu vote' - at least when it comes to aspiration. Remember - the RJB movement and Advani's Rath Yatra (accompanied by violence!) was not an immediate response to Muslim anything, but to the Mandal Commission report on reservations of OBCs. It was a (at least for a while successful) attempt to get Hindus to forget the politicisation of their caste demands (in response to caste deprivation and discrimination) in order to vote as a bloc that didn't focus on reservations - and they did this by identifying the 'other' (people like me!) for ordinary Hindus to hate and fear, and then by whipping that up until they destroyed a masjid, triggered riots and violence across India (that is one trigger that Hindutvadis never mention, interestingly) and reaping an electoral reward
However. It's interesting to note that Ayodhya itself (whose people have suffered most from this RJB/BM politicisation) has not elected a BJP representative, and in fact UP has chosen it's (at least) second 'Mandalised' party to run the State in a row. So it is not really working, this whole vote bank thing. (It generally doesn't work with the Muslims either. Just thought I would point this out. Apart from your hometown of Hyderabad which manages to elect some real reactionary bizarros, I don't think Muslim majority districts in India (Murshidabad, North Kerala) elect religious parties. (Correct me if I'm wrong. Wrt Hyderabad, a lot of that is, imho, a reaction to the anti-razakar backlash. You tell.)
[[I think that by their very nature jihad and Hindutva as we experience them today are expressions of morally reprehensible communal politicisation that weaken civil society and undermine freedom of speech and expression.]]
Creating false equivalences where none exist like Zafar does in the excerpt above is another tactic the secular crowd and their Islamist backers use to obfuscate the real issue which is of Islamist excesses even in a Hindu-majority country like ours. Islamism, Jihad or whatever else you label it is a proven ideology that has caused destruction worldwide, but more so in a country like India because the state for the sake of political expediency, i.e. vote bank politics has always treated it with kid gloves. Hindutva is nowhere close in comparison, existing merely in the fertile imaginations of a paranoid bunch of seculars and those that egg them on.
The reason why this bunch cries hoarse everytime they get the opportunity is because deep down, they perhaps realize that the day such a force comes into existence, it will be the end of their duplicitous games.
>>Well don’t you think, in that case, you should be a little less categorical about what this unseen research report does and does not prove?
You can post unseen research report but I can’t question it?
>>Well the Congress wasn’t leading riots (this time). It *was* the Sangh Parivar in Gujarat.
You just continue to make assertions as if what you say is gospel
http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2003-08-09/india/27201201_1_congress-leaders-congress-mlas-gujarat-youth-congress
>>I think they might have mapped instances of violence, overlaid these factors, and drawn some conclusions.
I think they chose to conduct research based on a pre-determined conclusion.
>>People shouldn’t resort to violence in any case, but unfortunately they sometimes do. One factor that seems to influence this is level of underemployment in a community – more to do with general frustration and need to blame someone ‘other’ for life’s difficulties than with ‘free time’ per se. However….
Well all the factors you mention apply to the Muslim community more. See where you are going with this line of argument.
>>That may have been the point to the bandh.
So is it unemployment, vote share, electoral challenges, free time or frustration??
>>(Declared by the VHP, who also – unsurprisingly – led the violence. See a connection?)
VHP bandh led to violence by Congress party members? Well I am trying very hard to find the connection.
>>26% is substantially lower than 36%, but was still high enough to go up over 50% (to 66%) thereby winning the seat.
First, it’s a district not a constituency. Second, this refutes the ‘high violence where there was challenges’ argument. You can’t have the cake and eat it too.
>>There’s no similar calculation with violence – twice as much violence is twice as much violence – with no 50% level pay off. You are comparing apples and oranges.
Violence is common for both arguments ie vote share and underemployment.
>>The thing is, RSM, these faceless men and women of the Parivar may not feel that they need to tell the Parivar’s intellectual and physical foot soldiers when they are being manipulated into fighting a war. In fact NOT telling you may be more effective for them.
I know you have it all figured out that the ‘Parivar’s intellectual and physical foot soldiers’ (whatever that means) are just cattle. Now, for the last time, show me the evidence.
[[Who knew that Humpty was a Hindutvadi? I’m surprised!]]
But I had a hunch you were just another water carrier for the Islamist juggernaut. Not surprised at all; have seen quite a few "educated" ones!
I think that by their very nature jihad and Hindutva as we experience them today are expressions of morally reprehensible communal politicisation that weaken civil society and undermine freedom of speech and expression. This is definitely true in the South Asian countries, and is probably (I'm not so familar with them) true in the rest of the world as well.
They both encourage discrimination against minorities of ALL kinds - though they start with religious minorities they quickly move on the political 'others' as well. They do not welcome, or make space for, different beliefs of any kind. Generally they dislike difference.
They both feel that a 'befitting response' to a challenging idea is not to argue a case but to beat up or kill whoever expressed it. This is not good for a free press - journalists are killed, institutes destroyed and libraries damaged.
They are both profoundly corrupting ideologies - because they give the easily corruptible an excuse to act on their basest urges.
Stealing your neighbour's land is theft, but if it's done by some sort of ethnic cleansing based on religious identity then suddenly theft is transformed to purification - and guess what? You still have someone else's field/cow/house/business but you get to pat yourself on the back and feel all self righteous about it as well.
Killing someone is murder, but if you can justify it by referring to another atrocity, suddenly it becomes the nobler sounding revenge. I don't know what excuse they use to justify rape, but I'm sure that they have one.
Note - I have deliberately written the last few paras without reference to any specific religion because I think that they could easily be about people of any religion, either in India or in Pakistan or Bangladesh (and probably Sri Lanka as well).
Zafar, you missed the point again - what is the evidence for your assertions? Please don’t say everyone knows it!
If by ‘wear pants’ you mean ‘engage in morally reprehensible communal politicisation that weakens civil society and undermines freedom of speech and expression’ then I think you are may be correct. An eccentric approach, but…
"When I Use a Word, It Means Precisely What I Want It To Mean...."--Humpty Dumpty
Who knew that Humpty was a Hindutvadi? I’m surprised!
Wian
[In your humble (for good reasons) opinion, Modi is also similar to Zia.]
Also like Jinnah and Bhutto and basically most Pakistani politicians. Modi is working the two nation theory while the rest of India has let it go.
[And we had more modern technology during Nandigram, where the only efficiency displayed by CPI goondas was in killing and destroying.]
Yawwwwwwwwwwwwwwwn, now you’re trying to change the subject to something, anything, other than the blood on Modi’s hands. Who is defending the CPI here? Not me! But you are defeding Modi and the Hindutvadi rapists and killers. That’s why we’re still having this conversation. Stop trying to change the subject.
[So talking about technology, without acknowledging the efforts by law enforcement agencies (under Modi) to control the situation is a sign of your stupidity and slimeball tendencies.]
Technology is actually helping to indict them. Those phone records are quite damning, especially when people claim to have either been nowhere near the violence (but mobile phone records show that they were) or when policemen and politicians claim to have not been in contact for weeks before (but phone records show that they spoke fifteen times during the night of the Gulberg society massacre).
In fact I think there was even a clip on youtube (captured on someone’s mobile phone) of Ehsan Jafri running up and down after his fingers were cut off, shouting Jai Sri Ram before they killed him. Maybe Modi’s police deserve a medal for that? In any case, the truth is still coming out despite Modi and his state’s best efforts at suppressing it, and it isn’t pretty.
[You know very well I was taking about the news report about a research report you posted.]
Well don’t you think, in that case, you should be a little less categorical about what this unseen research report does and does not prove?
[ all violence because of BJP!]
Well the Congress wasn’t leading riots (this time). It *was* the Sangh Parivar in Gujarat.
[So you take many instances of violence, conclude that violence was high where BJP faced competition but in the same breath say ‘but not only’ for those places where they didn’t face competition and when facts contradict conclusions, blame it on other factors!!]
I think they might have mapped instances of violence, overlaid these factors, and drawn some conclusions.
[So where UNDEREMPLOYMENT is high, meant more violence? Why? Just because people don’t have meaningful employment, they should resort to violence?]
People shouldn’t resort to violence in any case, but unfortunately they sometimes do. One factor that seems to influence this is level of underemployment in a community – more to do with general frustration and need to blame someone ‘other’ for life’s difficulties than with ‘free time’ per se. However….
[The days of riots were declared bandh hence EVERYBODY had free time!]
That may have been the point to the bandh. (Declared by the VHP, who also – unsurprisingly – led the violence. See a connection?)
[Why don’t you apply his logic to urban areas? Oh I know, there BJP was facing high competition! And what is the threshold limit of underemployment resulting in high violence? If according to you 26% vote share is not substantially lower than 36%, why is 19.9% significantly higher than 9.4%??]
26% is substantially lower than 36%, but was still high enough to go up over 50% (to 66%) thereby winning the seat.
There’s no similar calculation with violence – twice as much violence is twice as much violence – with no 50% level pay off. You are comparing apples and oranges.
[All this research is bunk! Communal riots results in communal polarization due to communal insecurities. That explains the voting patterns not some grand design by BJP based on some serious statistical analysis and some alleged directives by those BJP statisticians to riot in specific areas for electoral benefits!]
The thing is, RSM, these faceless men and women of the Parivar may not feel that they need to tell the Parivar’s intellectual and physical foot soldiers when they are being manipulated into fighting a war. In fact NOT telling you may be more effective for them.
Al, Zafar reminds me so much of Kumar. So a typical Zafar line of argument is as follows:
Z: Modi had Zia are the same!
How?
Z: Because both wear pants.
But does that make them similar?
Z: Did his supporters give him the title “He who also wore pants” for nothing?
But how does that make him similar to Zia?
Z: Are you saying Modi doesn’t wear pants like Zia??
>>Arrey! So much of khunnas? It's just an online discussion, why so highly strung?
Is ‘tiresome’ translated as ‘khunnas’ in Hindi? You are tiresome simply because you are circular reasoning personified.
>>I'm frankly surprised that you were able to read it. From the article about the report
So this is what it has come down to, nitpicking! You know very well I was taking about the news report about a research report you posted.
>>If you had read all the way to the end of the article (not the report itself) you would have found (emphasis added by capitalisation [with comment in square brackets] for your benefit):
I read it all the way to the end. That’s why I was not surprised you found such reports interesting. It basically argues everything and employs ‘cover your ass’ technique when facts turn out against the pet theory.
>>Controlling for other factors, areas with BJP vote around 35-40% had the GREATEST [not ONLY] violence - these were where it faced high competition for votes.
“Not only’ translated as - high violence where BJP faced high competition, high violence where BJP faced low competition but all violence because of BJP!
>>The new finding of a negative effect for BJP MLA reinforces this point. We would like to reiterate that OUR ANALYSIS ALSO TAKES INTO ACCOUNT MANY OTHER FACTORS that led to violence - such as UNDEREMPLOYMENT, the number of Muslims, etc. So we can identify the specific effect of BJP, which cannot be judged by taking one or two well-known instances of violence."
So you take many instances of violence, conclude that violence was high where BJP faced competition but in the same breath say ‘but not only’ for those places where they didn’t face competition and when facts contradict conclusions, blame it on other factors!!
>>And indeed, the last paragraph of the article (such a pain reading the whole thing before commenting, na?) says:
Don’t assume everyone reads like you. Weren’t you the one to give example of 10% increasing to maximum 30% hence not beneficial?
>>"Places with high UNDEREMPLOYMENT i.e. 'marginal workers', were likely to have more violence, such as rural areas of PANCHAMAHAL (19.9% underemployment) compared to rural areas of Bharuch (9.4% underemployment)."
Yeah right! So where UNDEREMPLOYMENT is high, meant more violence? Why? Just because people don’t have meaningful employment, they should resort to violence? The days of riots were declared bandh hence EVERYBODY had free time! Why don’t you apply his logic to urban areas? Oh I know, there BJP was facing high competition! And what is the threshold limit of underemployment resulting in high violence? If according to you 26% vote share is not substantially lower than 36%, why is 19.9% significantly higher than 9.4%??
All this research is bunk! Communal riots results in communal polarization due to communal insecurities. That explains the voting patterns not some grand design by BJP based on some serious statistical analysis and some alleged directives by those BJP statisticians to riot in specific areas for electoral benefits!
[[Well that's certainly a novel meaning for 'do not complain'. In which language does it mean this?]]
Zafar, what that means is 'do not ONLY complain'. I hope you understand the difference between the two.
>> How do you know?
By the stink raised by your fellow jehadis against them.
>> imho the only reason that the aftermath of this pogrom (not riot) is playing out differently is because of where we are with technology.
In your humble (for good reasons) opinion, Modi is also similar to Zia. So your humble opinion is crap.
And we had more modern technology during Nandigram, where the only efficiency displayed by CPI goondas was in killing and destroying. So talking about technology, without acknowledging the efforts by law enforcement agencies (under Modi) to control the situation is a sign of your stupidity and slimeball tendencies.
@ WIAN
[Oh, the same SC, whose appointed and monitored committees have not found any evidence so far against him]
How do you know? The SIT and Amicus Curiae reports have not yet been released.
[his competence can be gauged by the number of rioters arrested/killed/convicted]
Despite his best efforts. imho the only reason that the aftermath of this pogrom (not riot) is playing out differently is because of where we are with technology. This is the first pogrom in India that was televised. It's the first one where there was widespread use of mobiles, giving some idea of WHERE people were at the time of crimes committed. It's also the first where media has had easy access to things which made the Tehelka sting of Babu Bajrangi etc. possible.
>> This is the Hindu Hridaysamrat, did his supporters just make *that* title up for nothing?
Ask his supporters. As for the title of this article, did the authors make that up for nothing?
>> Actually since Zia was a jihadi it makes Modi a lot like Zia
>> But they are *so* broad that they are not so meaningful
Your second statement fixes the problem in your first one.
>> AND good looking. Give them something man
Already given him a huge house, perks, security and the freedom to loot the country. If you want to give him more by publically declaring your man crush on him, that's up to you.
>> There's a vast amount of evidence that State machinery in Gujarat under Modi is systematically biased against Muslims.
Yawn!
>> Just to start with, that's the reason why those ten high profile trials (Best Bakery, Bilkis Bano, Gulberg Society Massacre...) were transferred OUT of Gujarat by the Supreme Court.
Oh, the same SC, whose appointed and monitored committees have not found any evidence so far against him, despite the constant stuck pig whinings by jehadis? When the jehadis develop the honesty to accept the court judgements (criticism is fine) without labeling them biased or religious nuts, I can talk with them.
>> Modi is very compentent
Modi't competence can be gauged not only from the title of this article, the article in Times of Brookings, endorsement by business leaders, endorsement by even politically opposed organizations like RGF, statistics, endorsement by Gujaratis, including Muslims. As for the riots, even there, his competence can be gauged by the number of rioters arrested/killed/convicted. Compare it to any other riot in India.
As for fake encounters, Gujarat probably has arrested a higher number of fake encounter killers than any other big state, despite having significantly fewer number of encounters. Do you have the honesty to admit that that represents efficiency, and not the kind Zia displayed in dealing with minorities.
If, in Alakshyendra's words:
"it does not mean that they aren't discriminated against or that there isn't persecution or even that they don't feel aggrieved about it and raise issues"
Then what does do not crib MEAN?
>> "Well that's certainly a novel meaning for 'do not complain'.
There is a difference between 'do not complain' and 'do not crib'!! But, you will refuse to understand that.
Well that's certainly a novel meaning for 'do not complain'. In which language does it mean this?
[[Increasingly it's reflected in how they vote.]]
What matters is how this fares in relation with other communities. Every community changes, even the Bushmen in Kalahari have changed (this is not to say that their way of life is wrong and ours is correct), but how soon and how far is the question.
[[Have you heard of Dangs?]]
Are you really that dense or just pretending to be so? When I said Christians do not complain, it does not mean that they aren't discriminated against or that there isn't persecution or even that they don't feel aggrieved about it and raise issues, but that they are relatively much more assimilative and simultaneously, they've done way more than the Muslim community has to uplift themselves.
You never see them waving a Sachar Committee report at the drop of a hat and waiting for the government to handhold them out of poverty or want. They've focused on modern education and jobs and generally are very forward looking. They don't make an effort (or at least overtly) to stand out in a crowd because of their religious beliefs, and not that it is wrong, but making that the be all and end all of their existence certainly is.
[[Alakshyendra - it is foolish of people to draw conclusions about ALL Hindus because of the behaviour of the Bajrang Dal or the VHP goons during the Gujarat violence. I'm sure that you are intelligent enough to extrapolate.]]
You would be really be foolish if you did that, but when I do that, I'm not being really off the mark. As a Muslim, your views are colored because you belong to the community, but as a Hindu, I say what I see. Kinda like you argued the other day that a guy from a majority community would never know what it is to be a minority, similarly you would never know what the majority (and this is not just in India, take any place where there is even a tiny Muslim population, as in the Nordic countries) thinks about Muslims, and not only is it not wrong entirely, prejudice isn't the only reason. And the Muslim community has done nothing to dispel that notion. And just FYI, Dar ul Deoband has come up with a new Fatwa yesterday that proclaiming talaq over phone when in an inebriated condition is valid. And this from an organization that is the guiding light for the sub-continent's Muslims.
Unless the community at large acknowledges the elephant in the room, it will continue to remain backward. And if the educated ones like you are living in denial, one can only imagine what the less privileged ones think like.
[And you're wrong. Modi's support is based largely on his commitment and record of governance. Look at the title of the article.]
This is the Hindu Hridaysamrat, did his supporters just make *that* title up for nothing?
[He may be a Hindutvadi, just like others may be jehadis. That doesn't make him similar to Zia.]
Actually since Zia was a jihadi it makes Modi a lot like Zia.
[Per your arguments, you are not exactly like Osama, but are similar to him in any case, since you think Muslims are discriminated against. Large sections of Muslim community are like Dawood, since they believe that police doesn't treat them fairly.]
As far as it goes, these statements are broad and basically true. But they are *so* broad that they are not so meaningful. You know who else is similar to Osama? The justices of the Supreme Court who wrote the Sachar report. Yes, true!!! So is Swapan Dasgupta! You know who else is like Dawood? HUUUUUGE sections of the Indian public, many (even most) of them Hindu, certainly many Dalits. And any woman victim of rape. And, and...??
[Rahul Gandhi is like Sarah Palin because they both are dumb.]
AND good looking. Give them something man. (Why are our best looking politiicans always so damned stupid? Discuss.)
[Or he never wanted to bring any such laws, since he doesn't believe in them. Once again, if you want to accuse someone, you need to brings some evidence.]
There's a vast amount of evidence that State machinery in Gujarat under Modi is systematically biased against Muslims. Just to start with, that's the reason why those ten high profile trials (Best Bakery, Bilkis Bano, Gulberg Society Massacre...) were transferred OUT of Gujarat by the Supreme Court. That's the reason the Supreme Court ordered over 2000 (OVER two thousand) communal violence trials to be re-opened and redone under their scrutiny because of improper police work and prosecution procedure apparently designed to let Hindutvadi perpetrators off scott free.
Now you might argue that Modi is not responsible for how the machinery of the State he runs works. (He just likes eating dhokla and dancing dandiya, what he has to do with these other things?) In that case he's incompetent - which flies in the face of your claims that Gujarat has advanced because he's such an excellent administrator.
So here, logically, are your options:
1 Modi is incompetent, in which case he has little to do with Gujarat advancing;
OR
2 Modi is very compentent, in which case he is responsible for the bias of his State's institutions against Muslims.
Alakshyendra
[And what has the Muslim community itself done to change or fight that discrimination?]
Increasingly it's reflected in how they vote.
[ Is there an equivalent of the Babri Masjid Action Committe to aid Muslims get better educational and economic activities?]
Lol! Of course there are many such organisations - every yatimkhana has that kind of aspect to it.
More to the point - why should Muslims ONLY be involved in Muslims Organisations with Muslim Names? I think their involvement in things like Asha for Education, or SEWA, is just fine. Nobody needs a ghetto but people like BMAC (of whom I am not much of a fan) and the right wing.
[You can go on complaining about discrimination but nothing on the ground will change until the community itself pulls up its socks.]
Magar Sir, hamare mozey bhi nahin hain : - (
[Christians are minorities too, but you don't see them complaining, do you?]
Have you heard of Dangs? Anyway, just to start you off
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/sep/29/india.religion
"Standing next to France's President Sarkozy, the Indian prime minister Manmohan Singh today made a heartfelt plea over the spread of anti-Christian violence in India. The sight of Hindu mobs smashing churches and prayer halls while Christians in the country are killed or left cowering under tarpaulin sheets in refugee camps is, as Dr Singh rightly described, a "national shame". There are calls from within the ruling Congress party, which relies on the votes of Christians and Muslims in India, to ban Hindu extremist organisations such as the Bajrang Dal, which uses force when the force of argument fails.
"There has been bloodshed on both sides. One Christian priest was "cut to pieces" in front of his wife. A Hindu priest was shot dead for campaigning against religious conversions. The violence, which has left nearly two dozen dead, has spread across six states. Even after the Pope intervened, the Roman Catholic archbishop of one of the worst affected areas in eastern India said the situation was "out of control"."
or
http://scarlettcrusader.wordpress.com/2007/11/20/india-hindu-persecution-of-christians/
"A report by All India Catholic Union, into anti Christian persecution gathered data with the aid of leading National groups. The report underlines widespread marginalisation of non Hindus, and government apathy which protects aggressors. New Delhi (AsiaNews) – In less than one year over 190 violent attacks against Christians took place in India. These assaults include homicide, armed assault, sexual molestation and lynching, All India Catholic Union (Aicu), an association grouping together lay Catholics warned in a document published November 17th [2006].
"Aicu President, John Dayal, underlines that data was collected tank to the collaboration of various Christian groups throughout the country, and that cases were Christians were attacked for reasons other than their faith were not taken into account. Therefore says Dayal, “the cases that were presented and certified fall into the category of persecution. We have not taken into consideration the situation of social marginalisation of our many brethren in the faith in many Indian States, because it would be impossible to count them”.
"Sajan K. George, national president of the Bangalore based Global Council of Indian Christians told AsiaNews: “GCIC has recorded 464 cases of atrocities against Christians throughout India over 20 months and Karnataka has the worst record in this period with 87 cases, followed by Madhya Pradesh with 30 cases”. In the light of this data he adds “submitted a memorandum to memorandum to the National Human Rights Council and also to the State Human Rights Commission (SHRC), seeking an independent inquiry into the incidents. After the BJP came into the coalition- and they are now in power, there has been a climate of impunity for any acts of violence that are committed against non Hindus. Many of these attacks have occurred inside homes in the places of worship of Christians, as people were worshipping within the privacy of their homes and churches”. Often he concludes, “Often the Administration and Police have refused to either file or pursue the matter with seriousness. Unfortunately in our 60th year of Indian Independence, the government as yet has done little to bring these hate crimes under control” ."
[I've provided enough instances of how the Muslim community behaves as a group in both India and elsewhere.]
Alakshyendra - it is foolish of people to draw conclusions about ALL Hindus because of the behaviour of the Bajrang Dal or the VHP goons during the Gujarat violence. I'm sure that you are intelligent enough to extrapolate.
Sangeetha,
The Babri controversy was brewing since 1949 and even before. When the RSS karsevak mob, in the presence of top BJP leadership, eventually demolished it, it would be foolish not to expect a major reaction. I am pretty sure the BJP/RSS was counting on such a reaction. They did reap a lot of political benefit out of it.
>> Your response is to argue that Modi is not *exactly* like Zia. No he isn’t, but they both used religious identity to shore up their support.
This is what happens when you try to argue after being trained in logic only in a Madrassa.
And you're wrong. Modi's support is based largely on his commitment and record of governance. Look at the title of the article.
>> I don’t see why that’s so contentious.
Because it's wrong. I know that you don't have a problem with lying or stupidity.
>> Are you saying that Modi isn’t a Hindutvadi in a Hindu majority State?
He may be a Hindutvadi, just like others may be jehadis. That doesn't make him similar to Zia.
Per your arguments, you are not exactly like Osama, but are similar to him in any case, since you think Muslims are discriminated against. Large sections of Muslim community are like Dawood, since they believe that police doesn't treat them fairly. Rahul Gandhi is like Sarah Palin because they both are dumb.
Get it?
>> And you’re right
I usually am.
>> Modi COULD have tried to introduce these types of laws but didn’t do so
Good to see that even a moron like you can understand something if he reads it slowly and several times over.
>> Either because he didn’t need them (the State machinery is biased anyway)
You mean Paki state machinery was not biased?
>> and/or because he wanted some plausible deniability for his broader (PM) ambitions
Or he never wanted to bring any such laws, since he doesn't believe in them. Once again, if you want to accuse someone, you need to brings some evidence. That's a basic rule you probably weren't taught by your jehadi instructors.
[[Actually, I didn't say that Muslims are being discriminated against in the IAS or IPS exams - those are very down the line. Fewer and fewer Muslims are qualifying for these exams, however, and that CHANGE is at least partly because they are facing discrimination wrt economic opportunity and education.]]
And what has the Muslim community itself done to change or fight that discrimination? They hardly ask for an opportunity to better themselves but you'll find plenty of organizations across India spreading the message of Islam, setting up Madarssahs or new mosques, or asking for more Haj subsidies. Is there an equivalent of the Babri Masjid Action Committe to aid Muslims get better educational and economic activities? You can go on complaining about discrimination but nothing on the ground will change until the community itself pulls up its socks. Christians are minorities too, but you don't see them complaining, do you?
[[If there is so much empirical evidence that proof should be easy to provide. If you're unable to provide it, I'm forced to believe that you've made it up.]]
I've provided enough instances of how the Muslim community behaves as a group in both India and elsewhere. If you choose to deny or obfuscate the issue, you are free to do so, but then I will be forced to believe that you're just another among well meaning Muslims living in denial.
[God you are tiresome!]
Arrey! So much of khunnas? It's just an online discussion, why so highly strung?
[Don’t you read the reports you find ‘interesting’?]
I'm frankly surprised that you were able to read it. From the article about the report
http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2012-02-29/ahmedabad/31110513_1_anti-muslim-bjp-mla-scs
"In their Oxford Working Paper that is scheduled to be published in the top-ranking American journal 'Politics & Society', Raheel Dhattiwala and Michael Biggs of the University's Department of Sociology "
Scheduled? Scheduled? Or has it already been published? If so, do, please, share the link.
If you had read all the way to the end of the article (not the report itself) you would have found (emphasis added by capitalisation [with comment in square brackets] for your benefit):
"Biggs explains, "We would expect the violence to be worst where the BJP was strong. What is surprising in our findings is that districts with strong BJP had little violence. Controlling for other factors, areas with BJP vote around 35-40% had the GREATEST [not ONLY] violence - these were where it faced high competition for votes. The new finding of a negative effect for BJP MLA reinforces this point. We would like to reiterate that OUR ANALYSIS ALSO TAKES INTO ACCOUNT MANY OTHER FACTORS that led to violence - such as UNDEREMPLOYMENT, the number of Muslims, etc. So we can identify the specific effect of BJP, which cannot be judged by taking one or two well-known instances of violence."
And indeed, the last paragraph of the article (such a pain reading the whole thing before commenting, na?) says:
"Places with high UNDEREMPLOYMENT i.e. 'marginal workers', were likely to have more violence, such as rural areas of PANCHAMAHAL (19.9% underemployment) compared to rural areas of Bharuch (9.4% underemployment)."
[ It would diminish the BJP or Hindutva (whatever this crap means) only if they wre responsible for the massacres.]
If they aren't responsible, why do they keep engaging by justifying, or making excuses for, or minimising what happened?
[As of date, they have to get defensive because of the high-decibel propaganda.]
Looks like a guilty conscience, just saying.
[If the BJP had indeed planned the riots in which tens of thousands 'participated', I am damn sure that a few of them would have spilled the beans by now.]
Well, there was Haren Pandya's on camera deposition - but then he was murdered, so that might have encouraged people to keep quiet.
And there's that whole Tehelka sting thing, which catches Sanghis on camera making just such admissions.
[it is amusing that you ask me how I concluded that the average Muslim pays more importance to religion that jobs and livelihood without proof, yet do not hesitate to claim with a straight face that Muslims are being discriminated against in government jobs with no proof.]
Actually, I didn't say that Muslims are being discriminated against in the IAS or IPS exams - those are very down the line. Fewer and fewer Muslims are qualifying for these exams, however, and that CHANGE is at least partly because they are facing discrimination wrt economic opportunity and education.
[Coming back to the point, there exists enough empirical evidence to suggest that the Muslim community is more hung up on religion than it is on furthering their economic situation and making the most of economic opportunities that India's growing economy presents. You can choose to ignore it or get technical and ask for proof]
If there is so much empirical evidence that proof should be easy to provide.
If you're unable to provide it, I'm forced to believe that you've made it up.
[What was the faul tof the little child who was burnt alive. Did she taken part in bringing down the Babri ?]
No she didn't, Sangeetha. That's the point.
Like LK Advani and Uma Bharati
And that should include liars who have retracted their statements about the non-existence of the temple. .... anyway this is a different topic and not my discussion point. And more shameful is that post-BM, there were calls for eliminating hindus in some places which have gone unreported, let alone any action taken on them . How shameful !!
One should not be surprised if there was a wide spread reaction whenf the RSS goons demolished a Muslim place of worship
In a place sacred to hindus, nava nandi kshetra near to Krunool dt, one of the holy and rather bigger temple tank has been encroached upon and an adjoining LakshmiNrisimha temple was demolished; all this for expanding the local jumma maszid in 1970s. There were no riots. In 2002, a local hindu temple in Hyd, near to old-city was demolished after the prayers at a local mosque. And recently as recounted else where by me, in 2011, a group of christian fanatics have pulled down a Rama temple in Bhimavaram in AP. There were no riots. What a shame !
"If some local unknowns in Godhra," can resort to setting fire to women and children just because they happened to be Hindu" - Suresh
Not only that. Look at the brazenness of the mob - ~1500 strong mob pelting stones of the size of our palm heavily at the hapless passengers, closing the entry of the train to the south, cutting the vestibule and entering from there and pouring the inflammable liquid into it standing from there and throwing burning rags throught he windows (on the pretext of some altercation) and theres no squeak from these secus. What was the faul tof the little child who was burnt alive. Did she taken part in bringing down the Babri ?
@ Zafar "Did he call her Italy ni kuthdi? Shocking!'
He would be termed a bigot, nazi, fascist, sanghi etc etc if he says that. But KP is a secular editor of a secular magazine so he reserves his abuses and vulgar language for the communalists only.
Also, he could be aiming for a Padma Bhushan / Padma Shree in the future.... so he better maintain control while talking about The Family.
I feel sad for Narendra Modi. Till the other day, he was being compared to Hitler. Now suddenly he is brought down to the level for Zia. what next compare him with the "underwear bomber"? Or is there an "Osamaji" stage in between?
Zafar, it is amusing that you ask me how I concluded that the average Muslim pays more importance to religion that jobs and livelihood without proof, yet do not hesitate to claim with a straight face that Muslims are being discriminated against in government jobs with no proof.
Coming back to the point, there exists enough empirical evidence to suggest that the Muslim community is more hung up on religion than it is on furthering their economic situation and making the most of economic opportunities that India's growing economy presents. You can choose to ignore it or get technical and ask for proof, but if you do not wish to see the obvious, please be my guest.
>>But was it therefore “very weak”? What is “very weak” in your opinion? In the opinion of the researchers? Stated where?
God you are tiresome! Don’t you read the reports you find ‘interesting’? It is their conclusion on the basis of the 36% figure which they claim indicates that the BJP had a reasonable chance. In fact they even give the range 35%-40% vote share where they say violence was high!
>>Even starting at 27% (reasonable odds ) BJP vote share went up to 66%. With 36% it could have gone much higher. With 10%, even if it tripled to 30% it would not have been enough.
Is this your example of statistical analysis? Straight line extrapolation? So if their vote share was 45% and they rioted extremely hard, their vote share would reach, let’s see, (66 divided by 27 multiplied by 45) 110%?? Even Oxford research does not make such outrageous arguments!
>>Imputations of time travel apart, the allegation is that they were being told what to do by people did have this information in front of them.
Did they also have the vote share growth model in front of them which would give them the output of 66% for an input variable of 27%?
>>(It is openly available, btw, for anybody who troubles to look at booth level returns for elections, which all political parties DEFINITELY track.)
Were these booth level returns likely after elections available to the BJP before the riots?
Suresh,
>> Anybody would be horrified at such burning of people in a train.
That exactly was the reaction of the Muslim community in Gujarat, until it was overshadowed by the Bajrangis who came with their kerosene cans and their trishuls and by the police who refused to come.
@Anwaar - "If some local unknowns in Godhra," can resort to setting fire to women and children just because they happened to be Hindu, imagine what motivated jihadis would do. "People in other states were horrified at what happened." - Anybody would be horrified at such burning of people in a train.
>> "Doesn’t this constant defence of murderers and rapists diminish the BJP as a party and Hindutva as a political philosophy? " - Zafar
It would diminish the BJP or Hindutva (whatever this crap means) only if they wre responsible for the massacres. As of date, they have to get defensive because of the high-decibel propaganda.
If the BJP had indeed planned the riots in which tens of thousands 'participated', I am damn sure that a few of them would have spilled the beans by now.
>>One should not be surprised if there was a wide spread reaction whenf the RSS goons demolished a Muslim place of worship.
People continue to lie with a straight face. A alleged Muslim place of worship were no Muslim worshiped since 1935 and where Hindus worshiped till the place was demolished. For such a place, Muslim’s are allowed to react in distant Mumbai!! But if thousand jihadi’s burn a compartment full of Hindu pilgrims mostly women and children, to even suggest a reaction is sacrilege. Such is the perverse reasoning of jihadis.
[I saw the new outlook editor Krishna Prasad on Arnab's NewsHour show on Times Now. I saw him use vulgar obscenities on live tv to brow beat the BJP spokespers Ms.Meenakshi Lekhi.]
Did he call her Italy ni kuthdi? Shocking!
@ AK Ghai
What is your point, bhai? That Modi should not be held accountable, or that others should be held equally accountable?
I pointed out that Modi, like Zia (and in fact like ALL the Pakistani political leaders) used religious identity to shore up his power and support.
Your response is to argue that Modi is not *exactly* like Zia. No he isn’t, but they both used religious identity to shore up their support. I don’t see why that’s so contentious. Are you saying that Modi isn’t a Hindutvadi in a Hindu majority State?
[I had made specific references to some of the actions of Zia, amongst them, blasphemy laws.]
The actions of State institutions under Modi are biased against Muslims. The fact that this bias is not supported by law is arguably irrelevant if the bias remains.
And you’re right – Modi COULD have tried to introduce these types of laws but didn’t do so. Either because he didn’t need them (the State machinery is biased anyway) and/or because he wanted some plausible deniability for his broader (PM) ambitions.
[The average Muslim is poor, uneducated and has no share in the economic pie India presents (isn't that what the Muslim community's complaint always is?).]
The statistics do seem to bear this out. Poverty, level of education and access to economic opportunity are things that can be, and have been (Sachar Report), measured.
Attitudes to education can be measured, but in this case I think were not measured.
[From my understanding, none of that seems true in your case. So how on the earth do you consider yourself as the representative of the average Indian Muslim?]
It’s not true of any of us commenting away here, and certainly I don’t think any of us is representative of any community (except possibly middle class, or college educated, or having access to a computer, or English speaking [mostly]). I certainly don’t claim to be representative of Indian Muslims – which as a group are very diverse, in any case.
An Ansari from UP is likely (only LIKELY, because individual variation is also there, right) to have a different set of choices and circumstances than a Syed or a Memon from Hyderabad. It makes no sense to lump them together, or to assume that they will feel the same way about most things.
What bugged me was your assumption about what most Indian Muslims felt was important. What was your assumption based on? What data?
Here’s an anecdote for you; the RJB/BM judgement came down – and BMAC was most displeased with it. What was the widespread reaction in Bhendi Bazaar in Mumbai (with a lot of poorer, less educated Muslims)? “Allah ne hum par bada karam kiya aaj.” But was that universal? I don’t know. (Judging by the responses across the country, I think it was more common than not – but haven’t measured, cannot ASSUME.)
[How many Muslims apply for government jobs? How many qualify?]
Fewer and fewer qualify. That was my point.
[There exists overwhelming empirical evidence to buttress my claim. The Danish cartoon affair, the blind support for Palestine, the rioting that followed demands to ban the Satanic Verses etc. are only a few examples of how Muslims get worked up over non-issues.]
I won’t dispute this. But the point is that if enough Muslims get worked up over these non-issues to create danga fasad, then you assume that this attitude is true of all Muslims. Do you think that’s logical or fair? I certainly don’t judge all Hindus by the actions or words of the worst – don’t you think that is a more fair approach to people?
Re Modi – wait for the report(s) to be published. Why jump the gun either way?
Sangeetha
[To quickly put, someone was asking, why there was rioting in other districts of Guj ! But what happened when BMasjid was rbought down by some fringe elements]
Like LK Advani and Uma Bharati…hahahahahahahahahaha!
[there were riots all over India not just in UP or some districts. Why was that so ? We can share some of the gruesome(est) incidents which happened during that time in mostly indifferent, relatively peaceful South, but we can hold it off for now. Were the culprits brought to book? No. We dont see any coverage of such incidents, reminders, "celebrations" on completion of a decade etc. Why ?]
Take just one example of the post-Babri Masjid violence – the Bombay Riots – LOTS of people were booked, many people (many Muslims, mostly) were held on remand for years and year afterwards – iow, held while waiting for trial. So there was a response, of some kind.
But you’re right - largely most of the culprits were not held accountable – despite a rather detailed document called the Sri Krishna Commission Report, in which responsible individuals were actually named – and this is shameful. It’s equally shameful that the only people who mention this any more are from the Left. The Right has conveniently forgotten, the Middle is unenthused.
Because all this, btw, under a Congress/NCP Govt.
[BJP’s vote share in Panchamahal was about 27% in 1998 which went up to an astounding 65% in 2002. However, this refutes the research conclusion that violence was low in areas where BJP was very strong or very weak. After all 27% vote share is substantially lower than the 36% mentioned in the paper.]
But was it therefore “very weak”? What is “very weak” in your opinion? In the opinion of the researchers? Stated where?
Even starting at 27% (reasonable odds ) BJP vote share went up to 66%. With 36% it could have gone much higher. With 10%, even if it tripled to 30% it would not have been enough.
[Weren’t those ipad carrying rampaging kar sevaks who had the entire electoral database on their finger tips]
Imputations of time travel apart, the allegation is that they were being told what to do by people did have this information in front of them. (It is openly available, btw, for anybody who troubles to look at booth level returns for elections, which all political parties DEFINITELY track.)
[I have not seen anyone justifying it. There are many, including me, who see it as a reprisal response to the Godhra train burning (+ sickular apathy to it). that does not mean that it is being justified.]
Obviously it was triggered by Godhra (and despite the strong secular response to that, ahem!). But why is that always trotted out as some sort of an excuse? If some people commit murder in one part of the State you live in do you think that it diminishes your personal moral or legal responsibility for committing similar murders in another part of the State?
It just seems as if this kind of argument cheapens your position in general. Jmho.
Broader political question – there are so many smart, articulate right wing media people (Swapan Dasgupta) and politicians (Sushma Swaraj) – who I think have a lot of sensible and insightful things to say – but on this issue they cannot resist from trying to defend the indefensible. You can see how uncomfortable they look tyring to make light of murders and rape and arson – especially when they are in the presence of some of the surviving victims of the violence - but they do it out of some kind of political loyalty, or imperative wrt Modi.
Doesn’t this constant defence of murderers and rapists diminish the BJP as a party and Hindutva as a political philosophy? I think that’s a big reason why their opponents keep bringing it up, but why does the BJP keep biting? Honest question.
[Traditionally, most Muslims used to be engaged in vocational jobs (construction, lumbering, tailoring, diamond-cutting, carpets etc.) or in arts & entertainment. While, they continue to be the best in the arts and entertainment domain, producing legends after legends, technology has made their vocational jobs irrelevant. A simple example is their failure to move from tailoring to say, fashion design. It is for the Muslims to get out of this situation. ]
Obviously it’s up to Muslims in these groups to help themselves. But other groups with a similar traditional economic profile have succeeded in starting to make the transition. These Muslim groups don’t seem to be given the same chance or encouragement. While Syeds or other Ashraf type Muslim groups with a strong economic base have transitioned just fine - so it is not *just* a matter of religion.
@ Raghav
I think it gets the point across, and it upsets some people which is amusing. Iow, maza!
The NGOs, the socalled minority sympathisers, and the leftist bashers who themselves resorted to gundaism and thugery in UP, Bihar abd Maharastra, need to note one thing before continuing the same tirade over and over again. That is, many of those, along with the Central Govt., have commissioned several tribunals, committees, and also taken their charges to the higherst courts in the State as well as, the apex court of the nation. Now, not one of these institutions has come up with any indictable evidence or criminaliy culpable ruling, neither against narendra Modi, nor aginst the Gujarat's elected democratic administration. If they really have faith in the Indian justice system, they should bow to the respective verdicts, and stop their repetative rants. If they feel, OTOH, that the justice is served only if and when their viewpoint of the issue is accepted, they should not be coward to admit it. Just filing litigations after litigations, and crying foul simlpy because the justice system prove you wrong time and again, only vindicates the legitimate charges by the critics that these socalled activists and the NGOs are using the pretext of working on behalf of the vicims of riots to self-seve their own selfish interests. Moreover, how many of these litigators have really tried to rehabilitate the riot victims. The foremost in the minds of these victims is a helping hand in their dior needs.
>> when BMasjid was rbought down by some fringe elements, there were riots all over India.
Fringe elements? Some of the top leadership of the BJP was there in Ayodhya including Advani and Uma Bharati. One should not be surprised if there was a wide spread reaction whenf the RSS goons demolished a Muslim place of worship. If some local unknowns in Godhra, during a fight with karsevaks caused a fire which took 50 lives, should it be followed by systematic state wide riots killing Muslim men and women, burning Muslim houses and businesses, with rampaging crowds equipped with trishuls, kerosene and muncipal computer sheets identifying Muslim properties, and with the police asked to be tardy in their response? And this was not a Hindu reaction because it stopped at the stae borders. It did not go outside Gujarat. People in other states were horrified at what happened. No, this was not a Hindu reaction. It was a Modi-wadi reaction.
@ Zafar
>> "Actually, some people here do seem to be justifying it."
I have not seen anyone justifying it. There are many, including me, who see it as a reprisal response to the Godhra train burning (+ sickular apathy to it). that does not mean that it is being justified.
>> "Why is this? Some people say that Muslims are too busy praying and therefore have stopped studying. Other people say that Muslims are under siege economically and in terms of getting access to education, and this is due to discrimination."
Neither of those arguments explain the complete story, though all three are true in many cases. I think I have said this before. Traditionally, most Muslims used to be engaged in vocational jobs (construction, lumbering, tailoring, diamond-cutting, carpets etc.) or in arts & entertainment. While, they continue to be the best in the arts and entertainment domain, producing legends after legends, technology has made their vocational jobs irrelevant. A simple example is their failure to move from tailoring to say, fashion design. It is for the Muslims to get out of this situation.
"Butcher of Gujarat" ?? Seriously ?
Arre Zafar Miyan, at least you were more subtle 8-10 years ago. This is too theatrical, dont you think ?
There is only so much Congress+muslim activism and partisanship I can take. I have stopped subscribing to Outlook. My only regret is I should have cancelled my subscription several years ago. Anyway, better late than never.
Also, I saw the new outlook editor Krishna Prasad on Arnab's NewsHour show on Times Now. I saw him use vulgar obscenities on live tv to brow beat the BJP spokespers Ms.Meenakshi Lekhi. Then, on his next appearence on the same show, he makes vulgar jokes about the wives of BJP politicians.At least Vinod Mehta was a charming crook. This guy Krishna Prasad seems to be a low life and a vulgar and obscence common gunda or thug. I can understand a journalist having his point of view and not liking a political party. But Krishna Prasad has taken it too far, and is using his post as Outlook editor just to express his hatred for one of India's two national parties, BJP.
I am done with this magazine. Enough said.
Outlook and its paid news peddlers can cry themselves hoarse all they want, but the fact remains that despite 10 years of using every possible means to nail Modi, the man is not even close to being charged, let alone found guilty. Despite the strenuous efforts of a hostile Congress government at the centre, journalists who cannot sleep one single day without penning poison against the man, NGOs and other vultures that have fed upon the miseries of riot victims and fattened themselves beyond limits, and agencies that are constantly scrutinizing and inventing stories, Modi's popularity has only increased with each passing day. In another piece in this issue, some Modi-bashers are attributing his popularity with luck. The man has put in 10 hard years of work to make Gujarat the envy of the rest of India, yet they figured it out that it is luck that has brought him fame -- shows how objective the NGO crowd is.
So my advice to the haters is please continue your hatred -- with or without it, Modi will continue to rise. Some people have benefited through Modi's leadership, people like you can benefit from hating him -- at least you get a good night's sleep after abusing him.
The article on the outstanding research from Oxford University states:
“The killings took place mostly in places where the BJP had to put up tough battle. "Muslims were most vulnerable where the BJP had about 36% of the vote (in 1998), where the party had a chance to win in the 2002 election, but where victory was far from assured," the paper reads.”
The paper apparently states “It was in places like Sabarkantha, Anand and Kheda, where BJP had about 36% of vote in 1998, that most killings took place.”
So the research suggests that violence was high in areas where BJP had about 36% vote share but low in areas where the BJP was either very strong or very weak. The obvious conclusion from such findings is that the riots were planned and executed by the BJP on the basis of electoral analysis and for electoral benefits.
Let’s take the case of Panchamahal mentioned by the article itself although in a different context. The article states that the violence here was severe which resulted in significant increase in vote share for BJP.
BJP’s vote share in Panchamahal was about 27% in 1998 which went up to an astounding 65% in 2002. However, this refutes the research conclusion that violence was low in areas where BJP was very strong or very weak. After all 27% vote share is substantially lower than the 36% mentioned in the paper. Weren’t those ipad carrying rampaging kar sevaks who had the entire electoral database on their finger tips not aware that they had limited resources and that they should not have focused on a district where it was apparent that the BJP was very weak??
A long series of posts ...phew
To quickly put, someone was asking, why there was rioting in other districts of Guj ! But what happened when BMasjid was rbought down by some fringe elements, there were riots all over India not just in UP or some districts. Why was that so ? We can share some of the gruesome(est) incidents which happened during that time in mostly indifferent, relatively peaceful South, but we can hold it off for now. Were the culprits brought to book? No. We dont see any coverage of such incidents, reminders, "celebrations" on completion of a decade etc. Why ?
Coming to education vs religion, I had earlier shared my family friend's (a muslim) thoughts on education when his son ( 3rd one among the children of 5 ) didnot make it through the SSC exam - and the father is a technical degree holder. Take a look around, especially if you are in India, and see whats happening around in India
And please..... you can support any damn movement thats happening around the world, just see to it that it doesnot become another "khilafat" with a deadly fallback of another "moplah" !
Thanks
[[Well how can you tell if I am or I am not? As far as I can tell politicians pick people to represent communities based on whether they can get goondas on the street rather than on whether they are representative or not. Who IS representative of IMs, in your opinion, and based on what data?]]
The average Muslim is poor, uneducated and has no share in the economic pie India presents (isn't that what the Muslim community's complaint always is?). From my understanding, none of that seems true in your case. So how on the earth do you consider yourself as the representative of the average Indian Muslim?
[[Muslims have gone backwards in the judiciary and the bureaucracy - and that is not all due to their own aptitudes or ambitions but somewhat also due to those who hire and fire just not being comfortable with them.]]
How many Muslims apply for government jobs? How many qualify? How many are denied jobs inspite of merit? Unless you have some kind of stats for these, you're merely talking through your hat.
[[How many Muslims have you met who have said this to you? If not many (and I bet not) why do you believe it?]]
There exists overwhelming empirical evidence to buttress my claim. The Danish cartoon affair, the blind support for Palestine, the rioting that followed demands to ban the Satanic Verses etc. are only a few examples of how Muslims get worked up over non-issues. The way Muslims react to such issues is perhaps the reason why people take fun in provoking the community (God knows there is absolutely no (artistic or creative) merit in drawing up Mohammed cartoons other than to rile up Muslims in the name of freedom of expression). No other community on the planet has such a short fuse.
>> Tell me how this is fundamentally different from Modi’s role in Gujarat.
You've managed the difficult feat of sounding as stupid as the resident bigot, Anwaar.
Let me explain to you how this works. You want to compare Modi with Zia, go ahead. Others are likely to label you a moron, like I did. You want to prove yourself right and others wrong, you have to provide proof and use logic.
I had made specific references to some of the actions of Zia, amongst them, blasphemy laws. You claim incorrectly, that he could not bring such laws. Of course he could, at the state level. He might have had faced opposition from other parties, governor, etc., but he could have brought the laws, or at least ordinances, if he wanted.
And then you make accusations, sans any evidence, and demand that I believe them. Instead of presenting wrong facts, meaningless arguments, and faulty logic, present something concrete, and maybe then, you can have a seat at the intelligent peoples' table.
Dost Zaffar
So 141/142 Reply sufficient to condone the killings of 60000 Muslims ? 24/7 hai toba for killings of 750 Muslims only ? Reread your above your pathetic post once again .Are you people afarid to talk of killings during Secu Rule ?
Kaya aapka Zameer mar gaya hein because Muslims specially like Faruki are bending backward ,forward,downward,upward to give bogus excuses and justifications for 60000 Muslims killed and stick to 24/7 to 2002 ??
Who will take Muslims seriously if that is their sense of justice and morality that want to remember only 750 killings in riots and noot the 60000 killings of Muslims killed in Secu riots ???? Have Muslims given carte Blanche permission to Secus to kill Muslims as much as they want and Muslims have not the courage to even squeak ?
God bless you all -the Secus
Thank Allah at least young Muslism have now seen through the hate propaganda of nakli Secus .
Sanjay,
>> later on you said that support to minorities in Pakistan was only due to communal co-religionist sentiments.
Either you are a shameless liar or you have serious comprehension problems.
@ Sanjay
[Discrimination is a hallmark of Muslim society. ]
But Miyan, I am not defending Muslim society. I am also not attacking Hindu society, btw, o defensive atheist.
[Nobody is defending communal violence.]
Actually, some people here do seem to be justifying it.
[They are defending your allegations that Modi was back-seat-driving the 2002 communal carnage.]
It’s possible – going by a number of factors – but the SIT report has not yet been released. Let’s wait for it.
[The qualification requirements for judiciary and bureaucracy are very clear.]
Indeed, and the exams are fairly run (I think). The difference from before is that fewer Muslim Indians are achieving the academic qualifications to even sit for the exams, leave alone pass them.
Why is this? Some people say that Muslims are too busy praying and therefore have stopped studying. Other people say that Muslims are under siege economically and in terms of getting access to education, and this is due to discrimination. Whom you believe depends on whether you accept that Hindus are human beings with human tendencies (like prejudice) or whether you insist that they are perfect.
["The rioters. (Or pogrom implementers.) Obviously."] [You seem to be living in two sets of delusions. One, there were no Muslim rioters.]
I haven’t said that. I just don’t think that most of the violence was carried out by spontaneous ‘rioters’ – much of it (all that using gas to destroy the insides of houses, using lists of Muslim owned businesses to target the destruction) was too organised to be termed ‘rioting’. Most of the violence and death was not due to rioting but to something more organised and more troubling.
[Two, all rioters were controlled by BJP/RSS goons. ]
Not all, but a lot of them. And they were prepared – see above.
[Secondly, goons will all political affiliations made merry on those days.]
True.
[Zakia Jafferey's initial FIR included names of three Congressis (two of them, Muslims). After a few years, for reasons known to 'select sickulars', the FIR was changed to eliminate those three names, and introduce Modi's.]
Do you know anything about Zakia Jaffri’s case at all? The Gulbarg society murders were one thing (in which at least one Congressman was arrested, on the SIT’s orders) – and where people have actually been convicted. Zakia Jafri’s case (separate) is against Modi because he, as CM (not as BJP member), allegedly ordered the police to not intervene and save the 69 people who were murdered at the society on that day – among them Ehsan Jafri
[The fact is that Muslims were simply outnumbered and overawed by the sheer force of the reprisal to Godhra carnage]
But outnumbered by whom, Irreverent? Not just by ordinary Hindus – there is too much evidence of organisation for that. What ordinary person knows how to use gas to destroy the inside of a house without damaging its structure? How would an ordinary person learn this, why would they even want to?
[But, to say that they were sitting peacefully, is mere pretence that has no logic in light of media coverage from those days.]
But many of them were not being violent. Take the Bilkis Bano case (which is more a case of actual rioting, though please note the info on the initial FIR and the role of the State’):
http://www.tehelka.com/story_main37.asp?filename=Ne020208bilkis.asp
Soon after news of the post-Godhra violence reached Randhikpur village in Dahod district, Bilkis, who had been at her father Abdul Issack Ghanchi’s place, was traveling with her relatives from one village to another in search of a safe refuge. On the afternoon of March 3, a gang of 30 Hindu men — wielding sickles and swords — descended on the entourage of 17 near Pannivella village. Bilkis and her relatives knew most members of the gang since they were all from their village, Randhikpur. Fourteen of Bilkis’ family were murdered. Shailesh Bhatt, one of the accused, killed Bilkis’ 3-year-old daughter Saleha — smashing the infant’s head on the ground. Bilkis, five months pregnant and 19 years old, was raped by Jaswant Nai, Govind Nai and Naresh Kumar. She was left for dead. Regaining consciousness after two hours, she says in her deposition: “I found myself naked. I saw dead bodies of my family members lying around. I got frightened. I looked around for some cloth to cover myself. I found my petticoat... I was carrying fear in my heart. I felt that I was saved by God. I went sitting and squatting up the hill. As I proceeded, I saw the dead body of [my cousin] Shamim’s newborn daughter. Many dead bodies were there. I did not try to know whose dead bodies were lying there. I stayed at the top of the hillock the entire day and night…”
BILKIS SUBSEQUENTLY sought refuge in an Adivasi home, gathered her wits, and bravely made her way to the Limkheda police station. Like in almost every other case, the derailment of justice began right here. The police threatened her, saying if she insisted on filing charges of rape the hospital authorities would administer her a “poisonous injection” and kill her. She says, “I was frightened but I told them to write what I was narrating.” The police did not. They wrote a distorted and truncated version stating that about 500 unidentified persons came and attacked Bilkis and her relatives. The FIR did not record even one of the 12 persons Bilkis named. Says Harsh Mander, social activist who has been tracking the Gujarat genocide, “This was the pattern. In most cases, the accused were not named, and instead the violence was attributed to anonymous mobs. Omnibus FIRs were filed in advance by the police, clubbing several incidents — involving sometimes hundreds of witnesses and accused — in single complaints, to render investigation completely unwieldy and confused.”
/////
So tell me – what was Bilkis’s fault? What was her daughter’s fault? You keep saying that it was a matter of clashes and counter-violence etc. but what were these people doing apart from fleeing the threat of violence? Are you saying that a three year old is capable of rioting? Did the newborn child burn the train bogey at Godhra? What was Bilkis’s crime that you feel she was being punished for? What makes these actions anything but criminal rape and murder, and why shouldn’t the people who raped and murdered be held accountable?
[But Kombdi, I never hit you!] [I knew you wouldn’t get it!!]
But it’s the truth. I never hit you.
Are you saying that I did?
Anwaar,
Exactly - you find anything that doesn't cater to your double standards to be reasonable.
First you were saying that minorities in Pakistan should be supported along with minorities everywhere. Then later on you said that support to minorities in Pakistan was only due to communal co-religionist sentiments, implying that there's no objective basis for supporting them.
You're a hypocrite and an evasion artist.
You keep saying things that have been said hundreds of times before. You are just a plain bore.
[b]It all started when you hit me back![/b]
Hear, hear!
You are the one who is spewing hate. You want to be an inquisitor of others, but then bristle if anyone asks questions back. Sorry, but your pretense of moral highground is just a farce based on your own hypocrisy and double standards. You gotta be able to take it, if you wanna dish it out. You only like to dish it out, but you don't want to take it. Your attitude is reflected in your mania over the post-Godhra riots, in which you absolutely want to avoid consideration of the fact that these were provoked by the Gohdra train-burning which was committed by Muslims.
<b>"It all started when you hit me back!"</b>
Even though its meaning was lost on Zafar, that was truly the best comment of the day! :)
>> Zafar's imagination is motivated by his own deep communal hatred. How come a paranoid hate-spewing moron like you becomes an inquisitor of Muslims in this forum?From his comments I know Zafar for his patience and humor. He discusses issues from a perspective that may be different from yours, but no one has ever accused him of harboring "deep communal hatred" before. You have brought to these forum the worst elements of the Spanish Inquisition or the McCarthy witch-hunts that I have seen. You want to stifle dialogue with your wild and idiotic questions and accusations. It is hatemongers like you who are more dangerous to India than your bete noir, the Muslims. Shame on you!
@Zafar
[Well how can you tell if I am or I am not? As far as I can tell politicians pick people to represent communities based on whether they can get goondas on the street rather than on whether they are representative or not. Who IS representative of IMs, in your opinion, and based on what data?]
Likewise, how can you tell who is representative of "sanghis" and who is not?
[I do not think the average Muslim is 'fighting the Hindu' anywhere outside of the fevered dreams of some right wing Hindutva ideologues. (Just as I do not think the average Hindu is 'fighting the Muslim'. Both these cases are caricatures with little relation to the truth.)]
Strange - how do you account for the uniform record of Muslim-majority countries in their poor treatment of non-Muslims? Where the pan-Islamic bloc is in the majority, it quickly snuffs out minorities, and where the pan-Islamic bloc is locally in the minority, it wants to exclusively talk about its rights ("minority rights"). In India, everyone is a minority, and not merely you.
[Not at all. But to discount discrimination is also wrong. It is not 100% one thing or 100% another - it's a mixture. Muslims have gone backwards in the judiciary and the bureaucracy - and that is not all due to their own aptitudes or ambitions but somewhat also due to those who hire and fire just not being comfortable with them.]
Discrimination is a hallmark of Muslim society. Show me the Muslim majority that treats non-Muslims equally. Where have Muslims earned credibility with non-Muslims by treating them equally? What precedent are you citing? Most communal Muslims claim the fact that non-Muslims even exist at all is a sign of Muslim "tolerance" (aka. if I didn't wipe you out, it means I'm a great guy).
[How many Muslims have you met who have said this to you? If not many (and I bet not) why do you believe it?]
I've met plenty of Muslims who claim that their religion is the only path, and that by everyone adopting their one "righteous" path, that this will end all wars and conflict. I'm an atheist and a rationalist, and I'll never take the Muslim path. Furthermore, Muslims insist on forcing their path down other peoples' throats. They demand a separate legal system, and refuse to accept a Uniform Civil Code, which is a basic requirement for any country, and for coexistence. You cannot brand basic requirements as communal - it's like opposing oxygen or water as communal. Sorry, but if oxygen and water are too communal for your liking, then go live somewhere else, because I've not giving them up for the privilege of staring at your ugly face.
Zafar lies when he claims that Modi is trying to brag about the riots and get credit for them. Modi already said that the riots were a bad day. Meanwhile, Sonia Gandhi's family are all shielding their partymen who directly led mobs to massacre thousands of Sikhs in 1984, but Zafar and his communal vote bank are more than happy to vote for the mass-murdering Congress kleptocracy. That was the greater death toll by far, but they refuse to call that 'genocide'.
Modi's record of development, which has Muslims trying to get into Gujarat, stands in sharp contrast to the Congress, which is only interested in bolstering its own power and wealth, at the expense of keeping Indians poor. Under the Congress things will only get worse, while with Modi the quality of life for Indians will get better across the board.
Zafar writes:
"But Kombdi, I never hit you!"
Somebody burned the Godhra train, but Zafar says nobody did it, because Zafar doesn't care about those who are the victims of communal Muslims who murder. Modi never led any mobs against anyone, he never called for harm against anyone, he also said that day of riots was a bad day. But Zafar imagines that not only did Modi assemble and lead mobs, he also imagines that Hindus were somehow lying in wait to pounce on Muslims when nobody could have predicted the train would be burned. Zafar's imagination is motivated by his own deep communal hatred.
When confronted with the fact that nobody could have predicted the train would be burned, much less be prepared for violence, then our so-called "sekoolar" Zafar (a communalist by any other name) then tries to alter his story, to say that Hindus were "semi-prepared". He doesn't tell us how this could be possible, but simply cites fake publications by biased sources who would have strong reasons to fabricate lies. Zafar likes to pretend that he's armed with facts from factual sources, when he's really armed with lies supported by communal liars.
Zafar is a communal Muslim calling himself "sekoolar".
>> "The only people who defend communal violence here are Hindutvadis who defend Modi. "
Nobody is defending communal violence. They are defending your allegations that Modi was back-seat-driving the 2002 communal carnage.
>> "Muslims have gone backwards in the judiciary and the bureaucracy - and that is not all due to their own aptitudes or ambitions but somewhat also due to those who hire and fire just not being comfortable with them."
The qualification requirements for judiciary and bureaucracy are very clear. Both Muslims and non-Muslims have to clear law exams or Civil Services exams (as applicable) to get there. I have not heard of any Muslim clearing these exams and then denied an employment (or fired). If you have any details/ statistics, please do share.
>> "The rioters. (Or pogrom implementers.) Obviously."
You seem to be living in two sets of delusions. One, there were no Muslim rioters. Two, all rioters wer controlled by BJP/RSS goons. As for the first one, many of the riot accused in the courts are Muslims. Secondly, goons will all political affiliations made merry on those days. Zakia Jafferey's initial FIR included names of three Congressis (two of them, Muslims). After a feww years, for reasons known to 'select sickulars', the FIR was changed to eliminate those three names, and introduce Modi's. The fact is that Muslims were simply outnumbered and overawed by the sheer force of the reprisal to Godhra carnage. But, to say that they were sitting peacefully, is mere pretense that has no logic in light of media coverage from those days.
"But Kombdi, I never hit you! "
I knew you wouldnt get it!!
[ It all started when he hit me back!!]
But Kombdi, I never hit you! Rgds
>>Because they had limited resources (not enough Kar Sevaks to thoroughly terrorise every district in Gujarat), and therefore focused their efforts where they would yield the most effective increase in vote share.
Is this your new theory or is it suggested by research?
>>Surendranagar might have had a BJP vote share that was already very high….. >>Alternatively, Surendranagar might have had a BJP vote share so low that it was unlikely.
This is what I call “heads I win, tails you lose” argument. If there were fewer riots, it was because BJP choose to riot less, and if there were more riots BJP choose that too! Aare bhaiya, “BJP rioting’ is the hypothesis, it can’t be used as proof!
>>It was known to everyone, RSM.
Really?? Is that the reason why this research was conducted at Oxford University to be published in a top ranking American journal because it was known to everyone? And is it your habit to find research conclusions already ‘known to everyone’ 'interesting'?
I agree that all such events (not just the ones where Muslims died, btw) should be treated in the same manner. But all these "secus" who go on and on about Modi (I do, I admit it) ALSO go on and on about similar violence in Congress ruled States - such as the Bombay Riots of 1992-93. The difference is that nobody in the Congress is actually trying to GET CREDIT for the riots - and certainly there is nobody here on Outlook comments who even tried to defend Congress in this matter. The only people who defend communal violence here are Hindutvadis who defend Modi. What is that about?
[In what way are you the representative or a sample of the average Muslim in India?]
Well how can you tell if I am or I am not? As far as I can tell politicians pick people to represent communities based on whether they can get goondas on the street rather than on whether they are representative or not. Who IS representative of IMs, in your opinion, and based on what data?
[Pardon the pun, but when not fighting the Hindu, the average Muslim is still fighting for two square meals a day. ]
I do not think the average Muslim is 'fighting the Hindu' anywhere outside of the fevered dreams of some right wing Hindutva ideologues. (Just as I do not think the average Hindu is 'fighting the Muslim'. Both these cases are caricatures with little relation to the truth.)
[And if after 60 years, the Muslim community is still one of the most backward communities in India, one has to understand that it does not all boil down to discrimination.]
Not at all. But to discount discrimination is also wrong. It is not 100% one thing or 100% another - it's a mixture. Muslims have gone backwards in the judiciary and the bureaucracy - and that is not all due to their own aptitudes or ambitions but somewhat also due to those who hire and fire just not being comfortable with them.
[It is precisely because by and large, for the Muslim, religion is more important than education, jobs, and economic opportunities.]
How many Muslims have you met who have said this to you? If not many (and I bet not) why do you believe it?
[Of course, a lot of that is changing, but it would change faster only if the community were not overly sensitive to what are in this day and age, non-issues.]
Yes. This is also true. Also. Not instead of, not only, but definitely also.
"Don't want to suffer a riot? Don't start one. Don't burn trains."
the logic of Anwar miyan and and all his fellow islamists is the same:
It all started when he hit me back!!
Modi need to pay for his sins regardless of his achivements.If we are going to condone the killings of thousands of people then all dictators should be pardoned if they had developed their respective countries " Nissar
If so why you have condoned the massacre of Sikhs and killings of about 60000 Muslims in various riots in Secu Raj ? About 25000 Muslims perished during Lalu Rule of 15 yrs. Sir however you are free to pop in Faruki's tranquilizers and say on house tops ' Gujarat was Modi planned and rest were just happenings - Gujarat Modi ney kiya that baki India mein riots ho geye aur 60000 Muslims maar diye geye.Koi baat nahin -Hota hein '
It is very powerful but effective tranquilizer to calm the guilty conscience . The day Muslims ask the Secu for accountability then Modi should be asked too.Otherwise it is all Secu propaganda .
[[Well THIS Muslim's concerns are economic wellbeing, jobs and equal protection by the police (instead of perscution by the police). Which is of these concerns is the Govt so overly sensitive to? From where I sit it looks like the Govt is happy to hand out symbolic victories to loudmouths like Imam Bukhari that mean nothing and cost nothing. None of that sensitivity results in meaningful outputs, only worthless rubbish like the Haj Subsidy (on Air India subsidy) of random Iftar Parties. How does any of that help the common man or woman? It doesn't. Regards]]
In what way are you the representative or a sample of the average Muslim in India? Pardon the pun, but when not fighting the Hindu, the average Muslim is still fighting for two square meals a day. And if after 60 years, the Muslim community is still one of the most backward communities in India, one has to understand that it does not all boil down to discrimination. It is precisely because by and large, for the Muslim, religion is more important than education, jobs, and economic opportunities. Of course, a lot of that is changing, but it would change faster only if the community were not overly sensitive to what are in this day and age, non-issues.
[I would say that Muslims have used Modi's Hindu identity to consolidate themselves politically with the Left, just as they have used casteism to consolidate support from casteist parties like SP and BSP around them.]
Of course, let’s blame Dalit parties for casteism, because without the BSP there would be no casteism in UP. What keen insight!!!
(Your attitude, Miyan, is why the BJP will have trouble finding coalition allies if Modi is the PM candidate, and why they didn’t do very well in UP. Just saying something doesn’t make it so.)
[Again, your attempt to portray BJP as having organized the riots is like the attempt to portray Shiv Sena as having organized riots over the Babri Masjid.]
Only a monster would portray the gentle Shiv Sena in that light.
[Don't want to suffer a riot? Don't start one. Don't burn trains.]
My goodness, are you trying to justify D Company’s bombings in Bombay? Because it sounds like you are. Shame!
[Who deserves blame for the post-Godhra riots?]
The rioters. (Or pogrom implementers.) Obviously.
[The fact is that Muslims aren't a timid minority in India.]
Perhaps not, outside of Gujarat. But why should any minority have to be timid? They shouldn’t – not in India, not in any country. (And charity begins at home.)
RSM
[Going by the logic of these researchers, BJP should have inflamed violence in Surendranagar too as it would have benefited the BJP? So why did it not happen?]
Because they had limited resources (not enough Kar Sevaks to thoroughly terrorise every district in Gujarat), and therefore focused their efforts where they would yield the most effective increase in vote share.
Surendranagar might have had a BJP vote share that was already very high – so why waste Kar Sevaks doing danga fasad where if the vote share rose you wouldn’t win any more seats (because the seat was already saffron) and even if it fell a little you would still keep the seat? Waste of effort, measured in seats, right?
Alternatively, Surendranagar might have had a BJP vote share so low that it was unlikely to respond to even extreme communal polarisation to rise enough for them to actually gain the seat. So again – wasted effort, no point, electorally speaking.
[This conclusion was reached, I am assuming, after in-depth research having the luxury of exhaustive data. Yet they expect the BJP to know such statistics during the riots.]
It was known to everyone, RSM. It was the results of the last election. Vote share is one thing that the BJP (and likely the rest of the Sangh Parivar too) would have a very good idea about across the State. Every political party would.
[This research falls into a familiar trap – it confuses correlation with causation.]
First of all it establishes correlation. If that correlation is consistent across the State, then….there may be more to it. (And causation, as in causing the violence, is also being investigated elsewhere – ie Pandya murder, Sanjay Bhatt witness, etc. Frankly it’s becoming accepted knowledge, even if not yet meeting the requirements for legal action.)
[Zia presided (or dictated, if you prefer), over a fundamentalist Paki society, and drove it far far worse.]
Unless you’re a fundamentalist, of course, in which case you think he drove it to a better, purer more Pak Place. In either case you’d admit that the man had a huge impact on the society and institutions of his country.
Tell me how this is fundamentally different from Modi’s role in Gujarat. Hindutvadis think his impact was excellent, seculars and minorities think it was awful, but nobody denies that his impact was significant.
It’s also impossible to deny that the Hindu Hriday Samrat (seriously referred to that way in the past by people who are his supporters) got a lot of juice from working the Hindu=us Muslims=them meme. Zia did exactly the same thing with his brand of Sunni Islam being the equivalent of Hindu in Gujarat, and Shias, Ahmadiyas and religious minorities being the equivalent of the minorities in Gujarat.
[He introduced Islamist laws that were not part of the society till then, including Blasphemy Laws, which have been actively misused to target minorities.]
Modi could not introduce openly discriminatory laws, because he only rules a state, he was bound by the Indian Constitution. But do you seriously claim that his administration is not discriminatory? That State institutions in Gujarat are in real life blind to religion? The those parts of the Sangh Parivar that are outside of Government do not have close relations with those that are within Government, and that this does not result in biased policing and law enforcement? Seriously?
[Modi is alleged to have been complicit in the 2002 riots, alleged being the operative word. No charges have been proved yet]
Actually no charges have even been LAID yet. That’s what the SIT’s role wrt Zakia Jaffri’s complaint was – and their findings, along with that of Amicus Curiae, will emerge next month. Then we’ll see. Till then it’s a bit overeager to pronounce him exonerated. (Or legally guilty.)
[Were these seats also those that are usually called "communally sensitive", a round about way of saying that they have significant minority population?]
The report indicates that they factored that in – so there were a number of factors, including level of minority presence, but once you corrected for them all the BJP’s vote share falling into a ‘potentially winnable with some effort’ band definitely had an impact.
I’d like to see the actual report rather than just see a report on the report in order to draw firmer conclusions. But potentially….very interesting. (And depressing.)
Btw, you are welcome to drop by the tent and chat with Anwaar and myself any time. People could pay to see all of us. (Actually, this message board is a bit like….)
@Sanjay, "Don't burn trains".
Though the target of the mob was not the train but the contents, it is decent of you to call it 'train burning', an aspect lost on the hate-mongering secus.
>> Muslims have used Modi's Hindu identity to consolidate themselves politically with the Left.
How come you get everything wrong? Modi has by forgetting his raj-dharma, as Vajpayee put it, created consternation and abhorrence among Muslims and seculars, the latter including the Left, and have thus given them a common cause.
Jewish historians stae that over the past 1,000 years Jews were treated much better in Muslim countries than they were in European countries. But that fact would of course not be of the slightest interest to you.
The fact is that Muslims aren't a timid minority in India. They don't shy away from burning trains. Minorities in Muslim-majority countries wouldn't dare do anything like that, because they know they'd be wiped out. They're the ones who live timidly.
I've yet to see an example of Muslims living or behaving timidly anywhere, whether as a majority or a minority. They know other majorities will not treat them in the same way their communities treat others when in the majority, and they take full advantage.
But non-Muslim minorities living in Muslim countries certainly do live timidly. You have to, when you're surrounded by that community.
Nonsense, I would say that Muslims have used Modi's Hindu identity to consolidate themselves politically with the Left, just as they have used casteism to consolidate support from casteist parties like SP and BSP around them.
Again, your attempt to portray BJP as having organized the riots is like the attempt to portray Shiv Sena as having organized riots over the Babri Masjid. Just as it was Muslims who rushed out into the streets to riot over Babri Masjid and then cried victim when they were hit by a backlash, likewise it was a Muslim mob which burned the train with Muslims later crying victim over the backlash.
Don't want to suffer a riot? Don't start one. Don't burn trains.
Who deserves blame for the post-Godhra riots? The ones who started those riots by burning a train. They are the ones whom you seek to deflect blame from, and whose aggression you seek to downplay, minimize and even deny.
One can ignore such research papers. The Oxford research concludes after meticulous research and analysis 10 years after the event that the riots happened in those places where BJP had a chance to win and to back it up they speak about areas where BJP had ~36% of vote share. This conclusion was reached, I am assuming, after in-depth research having the luxury of exhaustive data. Yet they expect the BJP to know such statistics during the riots. This research falls into a familiar trap – it confuses correlation with causation.
>>In addition, the study provides evidence that violence benefited the BJP in the 2002 elections.
Researchers in Oxford University had to conduct a study to know this?? It was a communal riot which results in communal polarization. It happened even in 1984.You guys could have just asked me!
>>For example, the BJP's vote increased substantially in districts where the violence was severe, like Panchmahal, and declined in districts like Surendranagar which was peaceful. "By implication, the party had the power to prevent as well as inflame violence...there is strong quantitative evidence that violence did in fact yield electoral rewards for the BJP."
Going by the logic of these researchers, BJP should have inflamed violence in Surendranagar too as it would have benefited the BJP? So why did it not happen?
>> On the whole this is true, but so what?
So those who want to highlight this, are doing so.
>> I just thought it was very interesting that the highest levels of violence took place in seats where the BJP was facing a serious challenge
Were these seats also those that are usually called "communally sensitive", a round about way of saying that they have significant minority population?
>> Zia and Modi both used religious identity and hatred of minority groups to consolidate their personal power base.
That's just stupid. You need to join Anwaar in the carnival tent, and ask people to pay double.
Zia presided (or dictated, if you prefer), over a fundamentalist Paki society, and drove it far far worse. He introduced Islamist laws that were not part of the society till then, including Blasphemy Laws, which have been actively misused to target minorities.
Modi is alleged to have been complicit in the 2002 riots, alleged being the operative word. No charges have been proved yet, despite full throated cries and lies of the sickos, including making up of crimes that never happened, court monitoring and a hostile Central govt. And over the last 10 years, Modi has consolidated his power base, not by religious identity or hatred of minorities, but by delivering quality governance.
I wouldn't compare even Rajiv to Zia. But then, I don't expect much honesty of you.
Zia and Modi both used religious identity and hatred of minority groups to consolidate their personal power base. The fact that one of them did it in the context of an Army coup and the other within a democratic system doesn't mean that their approaches are different in all important ways - in many important ways they are very similar.
Sanjay
[ the fact is that non-Muslim minorities among Muslim majorities are treated far worse than Muslim minorities are treated by non-Muslim majorities.]
On the whole this is true, but so what? Does that make the mistreatment of minorities in India any more moral or just?
Stop using other people’s evil actions to excuse your own.
[You've posted more of the ubiquitous Left-wing propaganda claiming that the Gujarat riots were pre-planned]
I just thought it was very interesting that the highest levels of violence took place in seats where the BJP was facing a serious challenge, not where the BJP had a strong position or no hope. It shows a level of goal-oriented behaviour on the part of the perpetrators.
Re the headline – newspaper editors write those, not the editors of the articles. While the Parivar may not have specifically anticipated the Godhra atrocity itself, they were extremely organised, and prompt, in their response to it. Clearly their contingency planning included preparation for a pogrom. Iow, they planned how to do it, just not exactly when.
>> as exemplified by Zia ul Haq and Narendra Modi
Anyone who compares Zia and Modi is a walking advertisement of a moron.
You should sit in a tent in a carnival, and charge people fee to see you, a jehadi and a moron.
" They are "honest" when that suits you!"
THese fundamentalists are far more honest and less hypocritical than likes of Pakistani ISI who are engaged in covert operations. They have also punctured the conspiracy theories propogated by mulla apologists like Shabnam Hashmi about sikh massacre in Kashmir in the past.
You like to wallow in self-pity while seeking special "minority" status, but the fact is that non-Muslim minorities among Muslim majorities are treated far worse than Muslim minorities are treated by non-Muslim majorities. You've posted more of the ubiquitous Left-wing propaganda claiming that the Gujarat riots were pre-planned, but you can't explain how they would have been pre-planned in relation to a train burning that nobody could predict. Do you even acknowledge that communal Muslims burned the train in Godhra? Or are you again claiming, as some communalist have, that this was spontaneous combustion? Or are you going even further, to claim that Hindus burned the train in Godhra?
Maha,
>> Or may be too honest to accept it.
They are "honest" when that suits you!
[What is so historic about roadside shrines and masoleums, constructed illegally? You must be surprised (and happy??) to know that Modi also got many more temples demolished for construction/development work.]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Gujarat_violence
523 places of worship were damaged: 298 dargahs, 205 mosques, 17 temples, and 3 churches.
Among them historic structures such as:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wali_Mohammed_Wali
Wali Muhammad Wali (1667–1707), (also known as Wali Deccani…Wali Gujarati and Wali Aurangabadi) was a classical Urdu poet of the subcontinent.
He is the first established poet to have composed Ghazals in Urdu language and compiled a divan (a collection of ghazals where the entire alphabet is used at least once as the last letter to define the rhyme pattern)…
Wali died in Ahmedabad in 1707, and was buried in the same city. On 28 February 2002, a mob tore down Wali’s little tomb in Ahmedabad and dug up his grave. An idol of Hulladio Hanuman was placed over the rubble. Overnight [while the violence was continuing], the road was tarred and now no sign remains. Wali’s grave had stood outside the gate of the police commissioner’s office.
" LeT must be a bunch of bumbling buffoons to write an obituary on her]"
Or may be too honest to accept it.
" Majorities do not talk of majority rights, but some majorities do crave for majoritarian dictatorship, as exemplified by Zia ul Haq and Narendra Modi."
It is interesting you included Haq and Modi in one sentence. Haq came to power by coup, Modi was elected by people. If Modi had acted as a dictator, the whole riot cottage industry would not have flourished.
Interestingly:
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/ahmedabad/2002-riots-not-spontaneous-Study/articleshow/12078157.cms
2002 riots not spontaneous: Study
AHMEDABAD: The then Vishwa Hindu Parishad (VHP) chief K K Shastri praised members of Scheduled Castes for their participation in anti-Muslim violence in 2002. Till date, it is a common perception that Muslims were killed in tribal areas as well as in those places having sizable population of SCs.
However, a research conducted at the Oxford University reveals that the reality was different. In their Oxford Working Paper that is scheduled to be published in the top-ranking American journal 'Politics & Society', Raheel Dhattiwala and Michael Biggs of the University's Department of Sociology conclude that contrary to common perception, places in Gujarat which had a higher proportion of SCs and STs in the population experienced fewer killings during the 2002 violence. For example, killings were more likely in places where SCs and STs were fewer in comparison with total population like Visnagar (5%) and Himmatnagar (3%) respectively. Towns where SCs and STs were in sizeable proportion, like Tharad (25%) or Jhalod (47%), had fewer killings.
"Findings provide an important corrective to studies that emphasize SCs and STs as perpetrators of violence, because we find that places with a higher proportion of these groups tended to have fewer killings. While there is no necessary contradiction, we suggest that the Sangh Parivar's attempts at Hindutvaisation - branding Muslims as oppressors of SCs/STs - were most likely to succeed when these subordinated groups were too small a minority to forge their own class or clan interests," the researchers conclude.
Component II
Violence more severe where BJP fancied its chances: Study
AHMEDABAD: Killings were least likely in those places where the ruling Bharatiya Janata Party's (BJP) chances of winning a seat in the 2002 assembly elections were either very poor or very high.
The killings took place mostly in places where the BJP had to put up tough battle. "Muslims were most vulnerable where the BJP had about 36% of the vote (in 1998), where the party had a chance to win in the 2002 election, but where victory was far from assured," the paper reads. Lethal violence was low in districts, like Bhavnagar, Navsari and Porbandar, where the BJP had a strong hold in the previous 1998 election. Violence was also low in the Dang and Narmada where BJP did not fare well in 1998. It was in places like Sabarkantha, Anand and Kheda, where BJP had about 36% of vote in 1998, that most killings took place. This is further endorsed by a finding that suggests violence was less likely in places that had a BJP MLA i.e. on average, the BJP was not targeting their own constituencies.
In addition, the study provides evidence that violence benefited the BJP in the 2002 elections. For example, the BJP's vote increased substantially in districts where the violence was severe, like Panchmahal, and declined in districts like Surendranagar which was peaceful. "By implication, the party had the power to prevent as well as inflame violence...there is strong quantitative evidence that violence did in fact yield electoral rewards for the BJP."
The research uses systematic quantitative methods adopted earlier by the likes of Steven Wilkinson of Yale University, where violent places are compared with peaceful places to determine the cause of the violence. While the findings of the Oxford paper endorse previous studies that link electoral politics to the 2002 post-Godhra violence, the study takes account of several other possible factors in its analysis. The data was compiled from The Times of India archives.
Biggs explains, "We would expect the violence to be worst where the BJP was strong. What is surprising in our findings is that districts with strong BJP had little violence. Controlling for other factors, areas with BJP vote around 35-40% had the greatest violence - these were where it faced high competition for votes. The new finding of a negative effect for BJP MLA reinforces this point. We would like to reiterate that our analysis also takes into account many other factors that led to violence - such as underemployment, the number of Muslims, etc. So we can identify the specific effect of BJP, which cannot be judged by taking one or two well-known instances of violence."
Among other findings is that, contrary to expectations, literacy "did not reduce violence and indeed possibly increased it". Literacy can be equated with development, which implies there is no indication, then, that development reduces violence.
Places with high underemployment i.e. 'marginal workers', were likely to have more violence, such as rural areas of Panchmahal (19.9% underemployment) compared to rural areas of Bharuch (9.4% underemployment).
@SM
[Islam is a minority in name only. India is a sea of minorities, in which Islam is the big fish.]
So you keep saying. But you give me no figures to support your claim, and you don’t address the diversity of Indian Muslims – who are a minority made up of further minority groups.
[Muslim communalists will try to claim some kind of special beleaguered status for themselves]
I don’t know about communalists, but most Muslims would be delighted if we were actually not beleaguered.
[That's why wherever Islam claims to be in the minority]
You can’t talk to a religion or philosophy, Sanjay, you can only talk to people. In this case you’re talking to me. As an Indian Muslim am I in a minority in India in a way that is meaningful, or am I not?
[LeT must be a bunch of bumbling buffoons to write an obituary on her]
They just might be. And in ANY case, a fake encounter killing is crooked behaviour by the cops.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ishrat_Jahan
The Ishrat Jahan encounter case refers to the encounter killing of four people claimed to be Lashkar-e-Toiba (LeT) operatives by the Ahmedabad Police Crime Branch in 2004. The victims included Ishrat Jahan Raza, a 19-year old college girl from Mumbai, and three men: Pranesh Pillai (alias Javed Gulam Sheikh), Amjad Ali Rana and Zeeshan Johar. Multiple judicial inquiries by Indian authorities, in 2009 and 2011, concluded that the encounter was fake, and the victims were killed in police custody.[1]
The encounter was carried out by a team led by DIG D.G. Vanjara, who was later jailed for his involvement in the Sohrabuddin Sheikh fake encounter.[2] The police alleged that Ishrat and her associates were LeT operatives involved in a plot to assassinate the then Chief Minister of Gujarat, Narendra Modi. Later, an investigation was launched into the allegations that Ishrat was killed in a fake encounter. In 2004, a Lahore-based publication affiliated with LeT claimed that Ishrat and her companions were operatives,[3] but in 2007, Jamaat-ud-Dawa, the political wing of the LeT retracted the statement as a "journalistic mistake", offering apology to Ishrat's family.[4] After a long investigation, in 2009, an Ahmedabad Metropolitan court ruled that the encounter was staged.[5] The decision was challenged by the Gujarat State government, and taken to the High Court. In 2010, some media outlets reported that the convicted terrorist David Headley had implicated Ishrat in terrorist activities in a statement given to the National Investigation Agency (NIA).[6] However, the NIA called these reports as "baseless".[7] After further investigation, in 2011, a Special Investigation Team (SIT) told the Gujarat High Court that the encounter was not genuine, and the victims were killed prior to the date of the staged encounter.[8]
Rgds
>> wherever Islam claims to be in the minority, it only wants to talk about its "minority rights".
All minorities do that everywhere. And they should.
>> wherever Islam claims to be in the majority, it again only wants to talk about its "majority rights".
Majorities do not talk of majority rights, but some majorities do crave for majoritarian dictatorship, as exemplified by Zia ul Haq and Narendra Modi.
>> "eg Mumbai college girl decides to join terrorist group and take a bus to Gandhinagar to kill the CM, the man with highest security in Gujarat." - Zafar
LeT must be a bunch of bumbling buffoons to write an obituary on her, and lament about the failed mission. Chidambaram and his gang in the Central Home Ministry must be closet Sanghis to confirm that Ishrat was indeed an LeT operative. The Mullah apologists have failed to explain why two of the dead men, alleged to be Pakistani citizens, had no claimants for the dead remains.
Jokers like you go rabid trying to defend the Jehadis and then have the brazenness to demand trust, when they themsleves put their religion above the country. And, Ishrat is not the only case. Martyrdom of Mr. Sharma was diminihed to intra-police killing in the Batla case. Kasab's own admission of killing Mr. Karkare was brushed aside with "RSS ki saazish" logic.
In any other country, such bigoted dinosaurs would have been sidelined towards oblivion. Only in India, do they get the freedom to double theri share of population in six decades - and yet, this most powerful vote-bank in the country calls itself the "minority".
Islamic "tolerance" in action once again:
<a href="http://www.seattlepi.com/news/article/Forced-conversions-hike-Pakistan-minorities-fears-3437878.php">http://www.seattlepi.com/news/article/Forced-conversions-hike-Pakistan-minorities-fears-3437878.php</a>
http://www.seattlepi.com/news/article/Forced-conversions-hike-Pakistan-minorities-fears-3437878.php
Islam is a minority in name only. India is a sea of minorities, in which Islam is the big fish. It's the rest of Indians who are the minorities. Muslim communalists will try to claim some kind of special beleaguered status for themselves, but that's all part of their big fish extending its hegemony over the smaller fish.
That's why wherever Islam claims to be in the minority, it only wants to talk about its "minority rights", while wherever Islam claims to be in the majority, it again only wants to talk about its "majority rights". That's the game being played by Islam against other communities. It's not sustainable, of course.
>> "You will be happy to know, however, that Ahmedabad’s street maintenance program continued without a break, and number of historic roadside shrines and mausoleums were quickly paved over after being destroyed Babri Masjid style."
What is so historic about roadside shrines and masoleums, constructed illegally? You must be surprised (and happy??) to know that Modi also got many more temples demolished for construction/development work. But, we do not see the Hindus whining.
Instead of venting your haterd on Modi, ask your pied pipers why such shrines and masoleums have to be constructed on public spaces while they bribe away the Wakf lands.
[From all that I can see, Sanjay has got you and Zafar into rythmic convulsions.]
It's the majority/minority thing. The majority can ignore it, the minority finds it difficult to do so.
When I used to hang around on Chowk (many years ago) I saw Pakistani Sunnis do similar to Ahmediya posters - with similar sensitivities and insensitivities. (No Pakistani Hindus on that site, before you ask.)
[Riches or jobs in the armed forces or bureaucracy have nothing to do with it, but it is the nuisance value that they bring to the table. The administration in almost every part of the country is overly sensitive to Muslim concerns]
Really? Well THIS Muslim's concerns are economic wellbeing, jobs and equal protection by the police (instead of perscution by the police). Which is of these concerns is the Govt so overly sensitive to?
From where I sit it looks like the Govt is happy to hand out symbolic victories to loudmouths like Imam Bukhari that mean nothing and cost nothing. None of that sensitivity results in meaningful outputs, only worthless rubbish like the Haj Subsidy (on Air India subsidy) of random Iftar Parties. How does any of that help the common man or woman? It doesn't.
[You poor smug little fellow.]
Oh my, I've really got under your skin! Do people usually just give up when faced with your bombast? Hai, you've been spoiled. Not this time, I'm afraid.
Re: Modi - you can't convincingly answer *any* of my questions, can you?
I hope that makes your rethink some of your positions.
[[That must be why all Indian Muslims are so rich. And why they dominate the Armed Services and the Bureaucracy. And all the good neighbourhoods. And all the good jobs. Mashallah, you have certainly explained a lot with your insights.]]
Riches or jobs in the armed forces or bureaucracy have nothing to do with it, but it is the nuisance value that they bring to the table. The administration in almost every part of the country is overly sensitive to Muslim concerns; which is why they may dare to take on a temple for using loudspeakers but will never so much as squeak when mosques everywhere in India blare out the namaaz 5 times a day. They may arrest a Hindu leader for putting up Lord Rama's statue (this happened in Hyderabad recently) on grounds of attempt to disrupt communal harmony but will never dare touch a Muslim leader who openly eulogizes Osama bin Laden.
So this attempt to paint Muslims as some kind of victims may sound touching, but hardly washes.
Irreverent Indian,
[[How many people have you said these words to? When people engage in diatribes, they fail to remain consistent.]]
Who says Anwaar mian is not consistent? He has been consistent in labeling everyone who disagrees with him as a chaddiwala, Hindutvavadi, or communalist.
“There are no Pakistani minorities zealously tweeting away at the Muslim majority, because they've been silenced by snuffing their lives out”
Soon Hindu minority of Pakistan is going to meet its Dinosaur fate. The little minority of idol worshippers there know very well their place in a society of purists. They can not dare to raise their head. It seems that no Pakistani Hindu has ever taken the path of violence to fight the state atrocities there neither any Hindu mob has ever pelted stones on Muslim procession. And beyond all, following unwritten rules, it is almost certain that no Pakistani Hindu guy has ever married to a Muslim girl without converting, although Hindu women are continued to be looked upon as ‘available’ for Muslim men. Few months ago three young Hindu men were shot dead in Sindh. Their fault? They did dare to enjoy the beauty of a dancing girl who was Muslim.
>> Calling others poisonous is merely your pot calling other kettles black.
What do you call the obnoxious and hateful stuff you have been posting for the past two days? And what is becoming clear is that you do not have much information or any intelligent arguments to start with.
Irreverent,
>> Sanjay has got you and Zafar into rythmic convulsions.
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Wishful thinking!
>>CAIR is a well-known affiliate of Hamas. Anwar: What a liar! If CAIR was an affiliate of Hamas, it would have been closed down by the FBI long ago.
>> Here is a useful exposé on how CAIR is linked with Hamas: Anwar: Your link to the IPT website has already been posted in this forum several times by another anti-Muslim hate pracharak. CAIR was charged but not convicted in that case.
Mullah’s lie number 1 nailed!!
>> I thought Elashi, the founding board of member for CAIR was sentenced to 65 years of prison in holy land foundation case Anwar: Elashi is the founding member of the Holy Land Foundation, not of CAIR.
>>"Elashi, also a member of the founding Board of Directors of the Texas branch of the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR), was sentenced to 65 years"
Mullah’s another lie nailed. Kitna jhooth bologe miyan??
You poor smug little fellow. Smugness and dishonesty won't help you fabricate a case against Modi. We all know you and your baying mob of wolves are only motivated by bloodlust. The record is quite clear on who started the violence by burning the train. You've no concern for those perpetrators, of course, and have only sought to deflect blame for what they started onto Modi. But feel free to reveal to others your basic hypocrisy and communal nature.
Calling others poisonous is merely your pot calling other kettles black. You and your friend Zafar should take a look at your own communalism before you rant against others. Take a look in the mirror, buddy.
>> "You are full of pure poison, whereas Sanjay is half poison and half hot air." - Anwaar
And, what are you? A grumpy veteran sitting on jury?
From all that I can see, Sanjay has got you and Zafar into rythmic convulsions. All that you are able to do now is to spit and scoot.
PS: I had lot of resepct for Zafar. But, Sanajy scratched a little bit to expose his soft underbellies. I feel sad, but am hopeful that this was just a temporal blimp.
>> "Keep wondering why you're the only standing on the ground, while everyone else is dangling head-first from the ceiling." - Sanjay
ROFTL... Superlike....
>>>> "There is no one who is a worse communalist in this forum than you! " >> How many people have you said these words to?
You and Sanjay. You are full of pure poison, whereas Sanjay is half poison and half hot air.
>> This is coming from someone who links Nathuram Godse to RSS.
I have not linked him to RSS, but his brother Gopal Godse did link Nathuram to RSS. Why is it so hard for you to accept the simple fact that CAIR was not convicted of anything in that case? Do you have any personal stake in besmirching CAIR?
>> "There is no one who is a worse communalist in this forum than you! "
How many people have you said these words to? When people engage in diatribes, they fail to remain consistent.
>> "This whole post of yours is truly one of the worst posts I have ever seen. "
He was showing you the mirror. Don't blame the messenger if it looked so ugly.
>> simply wallowing in the artificial vocabulary conjured up by himself and his fellow communalists
You are just repeating inane and fallacious verbiage. Seems you have run out of arguments.
>> little communalist Anwar.
There is no one who is a worse communalist in this forum than you! You will not find any comment from me that trashes either Hindus or Hinduism or any other community, and yet it would not stop you from making your rash and shameless statements. This is the level of your dialogue! If you think criticizing Modi is communalism you are more stupid than I thought.
>> we can all continue to replying to you.
You are not making any replies. You are just repeating empty non sequiturs.
>> But what separates the liars from the truthtellers, the realists from the delusionists, is their ability to harness the laws of reality to build a better world.
You seem to be a bullshit artist too! This whole post of yours is truly one of the worst posts I have ever seen. There is absolutely no substance in it. You have just filled it with hate and blatant lies. You should be ashamed of yourself. It seems you have nothing sensible to say. You turned out to be a great disappointment.
Yes, I thought you wouldn't be able to defend Modi. Rgds
Now that you've broadened your net to include anyone who disagrees with you as being "Hindutvaadi", as I knew you would, we can all see your agenda. You want to be the tail waggin the dog, insisting that all of society must bend itself around you, to cater to your community, failing which any of us will be branded "Hindutvaadis". I think we all see where your slippery slope ends -- with all of us in the noose, while you hold the rope and kick the chair away. No, we've seen the broader statistics on which community has the better track record on tolerance, and which community has the more noteworthy track record on intolerance. Whether it's Pakistan, or Arab states, or any other Muslim country, we see the uglier record of intolerance.
Understand that nobody would accept such asymmetric treatment forever. Your hope is that Lefties will abet you in cramming such injustice down the rest of our throats. Unfortunately, nobody is infinitely stupid enough or masochistic enough to accept this.
So keep bleating away with the "Hindutvaadi" accusations, as it only turns more listeners away from you. I don't think you realize just how you come across, but it's plainly obvious to the rest of us. Keep consoling yourself that you are a lone island of sanity surrounded by "Hindutvaadi" nuts. Keep wondering why you're the only standing on the ground, while everyone else is dangling head-first from the ceiling.
Your arguments have only helped me to reinforce the points I wish to make to others, because you yourself are a lost cause.
Pity. All this trial by the media, and not one guilty verdict in real life.
Must make the Vinod Mehtas, Arundhati Roys and the Islamists soooo mad!
Look at them now, blaming all their ills on 'Zionist propaganda' , ' Hindutva extremists'...
Biggest danger to the world today is from your religion, morons, give it up.
Organized religion= organized crime. Be an atheist, see the light!
( fastest growing 'religion' in America is non-religion, according to NPR )
>> Arrey, he used to be a member, why is that so contentious?
You are right. It was my mistake. I wanted to say that the sicko jehadi crowd associate RSS with the murder. Sorry about that.
>> I don’t know if I could blame them legally
I was just pointing out the different attitude of the sicko jehadi crowd to the two situations.
[Assuming that this "gem" came in response to my post.]
No man, it was to Maha saying
“This is coming from someone who links Nathuram Godse to RSS, even though he was a never a member of RSS.”
Iow Maha factually wrong.
[Despite RSS being repeatedly cleared of all charges in the Gandhi murder case, the sicko jehadi crowd are unable to suppress their Mullahish tendencies, and associate him with RSS.]
Arrey, he used to be a member, why is that so contentious?
[And of course, it reinforces my point. If RSS can be blamed, just because one of its former members (not current, and not an office bearer mind you), committed a crime, why should CAIR not be blamed when a senior active official of the organization is convicted of a crime?]
I don’t know if I could blame them legally (just as I can’t blame the RSS legally) but I do think it reflects badly on their organisation. Gandhi’s assassination by (at the very least) a sympathiser (and possibly a member) was a PR disaster for the Parivar, a disaster reflected in the Hindu Mahasabha’s performance in elections. They closed the door to power on their own face with that.
If CAIR (who are they and why should I care?) keeps attracting loony violent criminal types (like, sorry, the RSS does seem to do, along with many decent people) then….they should think about why they attract these types, and whether they can do anything about rectifying this situation. Unless they find the loony types occasionally * useful*, in which case, for what?
>> Godse dropped out of high school and became an activist with Hindu nationalist organizations such as the Hindu Mahasabha, and the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS), although the RSS has claimed he left during the mid-1930s.
Assuming that this "gem" came in response to my post. Despite RSS being repeatedly cleared of all charges in the Gandhi murder case, the sicko jehadi crowd are unable to suppress their Mullahish tendencies, and associate him with RSS.
And of course, it reinforces my point. If RSS can be blamed, just because one of its former members (not current, and not an office bearer mind you), committed a crime, why should CAIR not be blamed when a senior active official of the organization is convicted of a crime?
[Godse was an atheist - thus proving that you don't have to be religious]
To be communal or a Hindutvadi. Thank you.
[Remember that Nehru was looking for an excuse to ban the RSS, which he saw as a challenge to his rule (so much for his supporters' pretensions to democracy)]
The fact is, the Hindu parties like the Mahasabha didn't get enough votes to shape the countries Constitution of institutions. The people didn't want you, no point blaming Nehru for that. (And yes, killing Godse didn't make you popular, but who forced you to do that? My feeling is that if you had held back you would have been more popular and you would have had a greater electoral influence.)
[Nehru wanted to maintain his own One Party State, and his legion of self-serving sycophant lackies were very eager to maintain the Nehru banyan tree, under whose shade they took shelter -- the Banyan Tree under which nothing else could grow.]
And that is actually true, though I would say that it was more true of Indira Gandhi than of poor old idealistic aadha gora Nehru. jmho.
[Modi said the riots were a bad thing]
Oh he “said”, he “said”, but what did he DO?
Did Modi do everything he could to calm the situation? No. He released the bodies of the Godhra victims to the VHP (not to the next of kin, as per standard procedure) so that they could take them to Ahmedabad for a highly inflammatory (and ghoulish) procession. He refused to declare curfew the next day to stop the procession. In this he acted AGAINST specific police advice.
Did Modi do everything he could to stop the violence once it had started? No. He didn’t let the police arrest the VHP and Bajrang Dal thugs responsible early enough to stop others from following in their footsteps. He called on the Army very quickly BUT then he kept them in barracks and on *very* restricted patrols, so that violence continued unabated for days across much of the State. (You will be happy to know, however, that Ahmedabad’s street maintenance program continued without a break, and number of historic roadside shrines and mausoleums were quickly paved over after being destroyed Babri Masjid style.)
Did Modi’s administration do everything they could to make sure the killers were held accountable? No. In fact they did everything they could, from refusing to register FIRs to refusing to include names on FIRs, to ensure that the killers as far as possible got away. Another branch of the Sangh Parivar, the VHP, went so far as to offer free legal services to all the Hindus accused of rape and murder at that time. (For context, this would be like a Muslim Jamaat in Mumbai offering to pay for Kasab’s defence costs wrt his murders in CST and the Taj – instead all the Mumbai jamaats even refused to bury any of the terrorists gunned down by the police.) Because of the State administration’s complete failure to do their duty many cases were moved out of Gujarat for trial – and a large number were tried under the supervision of the Supreme Court. Which, btw, ordered the RETRIAL OF TWO THOUSAND CASES because the initial trials (leading to easy acquittals) had been done with so much sloppiness and anyaya.
Till this day (a decade later) has Modi resettled all the people displaced by that violence? No. There are still internally displaced people in Gujarat, the majority of the Muslims, who cannot go back to their villages or their livelihoods, but remain in resettlement colonies. These are largely funded and supported by private donations because Modi *returned* unspent resettlement money to the Centre after he spent what he needed to to rehabilitate displaced Hindus.
Has Modi at least refrained from making political capital from the violence? Sadly, he has not held back from this – and when the communal psychosis that gripped the state started to ebb, he wasn’t above trying to whip it back up with a number of fake encounter killings whose rationale seem to be an insult to ordinary intelligence (eg Mumbai college girl decides to join terrorist group and take a bus to Gandhinagar to kill the CM, the man with highest security in Gujarat. The girl is later claimed to have been killed in an encounter – forensics reveal that she and her companions were killed before being shot; the police story of the ambush is contradicted by physical evidence such as which side of the care had bullet marks and broken windows.) In fact when evidence starts to emerge of his complicity in these acts he has Haren Pandya, a Minister in his own Government, killed to keep him quiet.
THIS is the man you think would make a good PM for India? Can you defend him on the merits of the case without muddying the water by attacking anybody else? If so, please go ahead.
Godse was an atheist - thus proving that you don't have to be religious to object to one-sided communalism and appeasement. Remember that Nehru was looking for an excuse to ban the RSS, which he saw as a challenge to his rule (so much for his supporters' pretensions to democracy)
Nehru wanted to maintain his own One Party State, and his legion of self-serving sycophant lackies were very eager to maintain the Nehru banyan tree, under whose shade they took shelter -- the Banyan Tree under which nothing else could grow. That's why Nehru is nick-named the Banyan Tree.
fwiw:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nathuram_Godse
Godse dropped out of high school and became an activist with Hindu nationalist organizations such as the Hindu Mahasabha, and the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS), although the RSS has claimed he left during the mid-1930s.
On the contrary, Modi said the riots were a bad thing - that's a far cry from having led the riots, or ordered the riots. Meanwhile, your heroes like Rajiv Gandhi are quoted as saying that, "when a big tree falls the ground shakes". Clearly the Congress partymen who led the riots have never been punished, thanks to the intervention of the Nehru-Gandhi family and the Congress Party minions.
No Muslims are trying to leave Modi's Gujarat - on the contrary, Muslims are queuing up to get in. This is in stark contrast to Pakistan, where Hindus were a sizeable fraction of the population prior to partition, and are now down to a couple of percent. Same can be said for Christian minorities there. A Catholic archbishop put a gun to his own head and committed suicide in protest. Look at the fate of Salman Taseer and Shahbaz Bhatti. And yet you'd call for accommodation of such a chauvinist society. You're doing no favours to the minorities there, you're only engaging in self-serving rationalizations.
The Leftist politicians you support are only interested in milking you for votes so that they can continue their kleptocracy unabated. They're interested in spreading as many false rumours as possible, in order to maximum people's outrage so that they can milk it for votes. Contrast this with politicians who are genuinely pursuing economic development instead of kleptocracy. Has Teesta Setelvad created any jobs? Only for herself, of course. She's found a lucrative way to make a living, by pursuing inflammatory demagoguery. She's not afraid, because she knows nobody's going to punish her for it. If someone had been doing that in Pakistan, the mullahs would have gunned her down on the first day.
>> He was charged and convicted because of his activities as an officer of the Holy Land Faoundation, not because of anything he did as an officer of CAIR.
Wow!
Trust the stuck pigs never to make such differentiation when they are discussing activities of Pragya or Muthalik or Purohit, etc. Even though they have not been convicted, and hence comparison with Elashi is not fair, the jehadi pigs conveniently label them Sanghi at every opportunity.
" He was charged and convicted because of his activities as an officer of the Holy Land Faoundation, not because of anything he did as an officer of CAIR."
haha. This is coming from someone who links Nathuram Godse to RSS, even though he was a never a member of RSS.
[I disagree - countries with non-Muslim majorities treat their Muslim minorities far better than Muslim-majority countries treat their non-Muslim minorities.]
India treats its minorities far far better than Pakistan treats its minorities. That’s perfectly true.
The *reason* for this is that in Pakistan it is people like Modi who have been in power since 1947 (both civilian and Army leaders fall into this communal category), whereas in India the Hindu Mahasabha and other precursors to the Sangh Parivar didn’t get a chance to ruin the country – Nehru made many many mistakes, but this was a major disaster that he spared the country.
[The Islamic world has a clear track record of worse treatment to non-Muslim minorities.]
But I’m not defending the Islamic world, Sanjay. P-sec, remember? I am not batting for sharia or MPL or any of these things. I’m just asking India to live up to its best intentions wrt secularism, equality of all and trying for peace in our neighbourhood. Why are any of these bad things?
[I'm glad we're having these exchanges, because it gives other readers an opportunity to be reminded of who's really more communal]
Or indeed who’s more logical and truthful.
Regards (and usually more polite)
Unfortunately, Anwaar is simply wallowing in the artificial vocabulary conjured up by himself and his fellow communalists on the Left and in his own ethnic community. To him, everyone is "shaffrronn breegade" because he's trapped in an imaginary world where only those who submissive to his delusional views are "normal". Sorry, but nobody's buying your crazy dangerous claptrap.
Hey, we can all continue to replying to you until you're blue in the face. Throwing around "shafrronn breegade" with total abandon doesn't give you credibility. We're just talking past each other, and that's how you prefer it.
Don't worry, little communalist Anwar, upstanding people like Modi are building a better society for us, even while you waste your time spitting venom. A Hamas-lover like you can't stop progress. Anyone can call anyone else a "fascist" - talk is cheap, and mudslinging like yours is nothing by cheapshots. But what separates the liars from the truthtellers, the realists from the delusionists, is their ability to harness the laws of reality to build a better world. That's what Modi has shown us he can do, and we're not going to let your little army of delusional wackos take away our future.
Go back to defending your mass-murdering friend in Toulouse, your boxcutter-wielding friends from 911, your train-burning friends from Godhra. Keep protesting their innocence. The world is going to move on without you, and as you find yourself left behind you'll have only yourself to blame.
>> heartening to see the Mullah apologists going berserk in convulsions...
Discouraging to see the saffron hatemongers in a feeding frenzy over a civil rights advocacy group which tries to help victimized American Muslims. They have no shame and no compunctions. This Irreverent is the same bloke who was advocating "permissible genocide" some months ago. Their hate seems to know no bounds.
I disagree - countries with non-Muslim majorities treat their Muslim minorities far better than Muslim-majority countries treat their non-Muslim minorities. Show me the Muslim Teesta Setelvad. Show me the Hindu Zafar or Hindu Anwar. There are no Pakistani minorities zealously tweeting away at the Muslim majority, because they've been silenced by snuffing their lives out. That's how Islam gets its way. It snuffs out the lives of those who oppose it, ensuring that its own members are the only ones to survive to write the historybooks or squawk for victim status.
Look at the demographics of Muslim-majority countries. Where are their minorities? It's like a Fermi Paradox. Muslims claim they treat minorities better or as well as anybody else does, but then where are those non-Muslim minorities in the Muslim world as evidence of this? Zafar and Anwar will slyly insinuate to us that those non-Muslims simply got tired of practicing their "silly inferior beliefs" and worshipping their "inadequate" Gods and decided to convert to the superior Islamic religion. I think the rest of us will dismiss this notion with the scorn it deserves.
The Islamic world has a clear track record of worse treatment to non-Muslim minorities. The non-Muslim world clearly has the better track record here.
I'm glad we're having these exchanges, because it gives other readers an opportunity to be reminded of who's really more communal, and who needs to be giving fewer lectures while taking more criticisms to heart. That would be Zafar and Anwar, in case they're not getting the hint.
>> "Elashi, also a member of the founding Board of Directors of the Texas branch of the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR), was sentenced to 65 years"
He was charged and convicted because of his activities as an officer of the Holy Land Faoundation, not because of anything he did as an officer of CAIR.
[On the contrary - where Muslims are in the majority, they have no qualms about asserting majority chauvinism]
This seems to be a tendency among all majorities. Hence my statement that majorities anywhere are more like each other than any of them are like minorities with the same nominal religion.
Going by what you write (you are fairly chauvinistic), your attitude is more like a stereotypical Pakistani Sunni’s than mine is. While mine is more like a Pakistani Hindu’s than yours is.
The significant difference is not religion, per se, but majority or minority status and how significant that is wrt de facto political, economic and social equality.
[Muslims bring up Palestine all the time - there's no need for non-Muslims to bring it up]
But you *did* bring it. I didn’t, you did. For what purpose?
[I can continue issuing replies as long as you can.]
I know dear. But you never respond with facts or with logic, just with assertions, you keep changing the subject when one of your points is disproved – will you convince anybody who doesn’t already agree with you, or even make them reconsider their thinking?
I am content with our interaction in that I am not ashamed of what it says about me. Are you content about what how you argue says about you? Just consider it. You can clearly talk the hind legs off a chair, but what does that accomplish?
[Go live where your heart is]
Lol - where is yours, in Beverly Hills?
Re: CAIR, HAF, etc – aren’t all these a bit of a storm in a teacup? Meaning civil rights groups that are organised along religious lines are by definition somewhat reactionary. It’s like criticising the NAACP for using race as a meaningful definition.
@ Ganesan
[Modi can be PM if BJP wins 200+ seats. There is no need for BJP to get 272.]
Who will ally with BJP if Modi is projected as PM? If they are to form a coalition they need allies who do not feel that their own electoral chances are damaged by Modi as PM.
Already Modi was not welcome as a campaigner in Bihar, or Orissa. These are run by parties that are the core allies the BJP needs to form a coalition Govt.
>> "The poster that you showed us saying was used by only the California chapter of CAIR..."
It is heartening to see the Mullah apologists going berserk in convulsions, when the misdeeds of CAIR are being highlighted. These jokers hailed Taliban as freedom fighters, only to crawl back under the bed when the US Drones arrived on the scene a few years later. Al Qaeda was just a far-right Islamic body with worldwide publications, till post 9/11 pragmatism demanded that they jump on a different roof.
The doomsday for other organizations propagating Jehadi mentality is not too far. If world leaders did not have their hands full with the economic meltdown, these scoundrels would be giving company to Osama ji. The world patience with these rabid entities and their apologists is wearing thin.
Anwar,
"Elashi is the founding member of the Holy Land Foundation, not of CAIR"
As per wikipedia,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Land_Foundation_for_Relief_and_Development
"Elashi, also a member of the founding Board of Directors of the Texas branch of the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR), was sentenced to 65 years"
Being in Dallas, you should know more about Texas Branch Board of Directors.
>> I thought Elashi, the founding board of member for CAIR was sentenced to 65 years of prison in holy land foundation case.
Elashi is the founding member of the Holy Land Foundation, not of CAIR.
The poster that you showed us saying, “Build a wall of resistance. Don’t talk to the FBI” was used by only the California chapter of CAIR in response to frequent attempts by the FBI to entrap unsophisticated subjects into charges of terrorism. As soon as the main office of CAIR found out about it, the poster was withdrawn. CAIR director issued a statement saying, “It is not consistent with CAIR’s policy of constitutionally informed cooperation with law enforcement. We’re concerned that what would normally be a minor error will be overblown by people with a political agenda.”
"CAIR was charged but not convicted in that case"
I thought Elashi, the founding board of member for CAIR was sentenced to 65 years of prison in holy land foundation case.
>> Islamic chauvinism and its persecution of non-Muslims.
You are so obsessed by Islamic chauvinism and its persecution of non-Muslims that you bring it up irrespective of what the discussion is all about. You are like some Muslims who cannot talk about Hindus without bringing up sati, the oppressive caste system, untouchability, human sacrifice, dowry deaths and female foeticides!
>> the more you attempt to demonize Modi and your fellow countrymen, the more you expose your loyalty to the supra-national collective you prefer over your local countrymen.
An idiotic notion! As many Hindus demonize Modi as Muslims. Those who demonize Modi are more nationalistic than those who idolize Modi, a symbol of divisionism and communal conflict.
>> Anwaar claims that anybody who disagrees with him is a "bajrangi".
Liar, I called you a Bajrangi because of your threat to urge revenge against Muslims if they continue to oppose Modi. Stop lying in this forum!
>> Hell, I'm an atheist.
Makes no difference. Many Hindutvawadis are atheists. Savarkar who first used the word Hindutva in its present political sense was an atheist. For you to deny that you are a Hindutva zealot is a joke.
>> Anwaar and Zafar simply don't understand what makes for credible interaction between communities.
How would a Modi-wadi like you know what is credible interaction between communities? You can generate more hate in one hour than an average Sanghi can in one day.
>> >> Here is a useful exposé on how CAIR is linked with Hamas.
Your link to the IPT website has already been posted in this forum several times by another anti-Muslim hate pracharak. CAIR was charged but not convicted in that case. Scroll back to previous discussions. I am sure someone else will bring it up again in a few months. I am not going to go into details everytime a new Hindutva zealot brings it up. Let me just add that the increased focus on CAIR by Zionist websites is precisely because of its repeated successes in its civil rights and advocacy battles with Congressmen, the FBI, sate police, regional newspapers and local television stations. I am proud of their work.
>> "What was the date on that poster?" - Anwaar
How does it matter? Did those Jihadi bigots turn do-gooders overnight after 9/11? Terrorists and their apologists cannot be reformed. The rot is too deep to attempt that. They need to be helped their way to hell. I am sure FBI or Mossad will do the same to CAIR - they are just waiting for the right moment.
>> "We want nothing to do with your supra-national Islamic bloc."
There is a pressing need to stop them though. Post 9/11 backlash from US, the Islamists have changed their strategy. On one hand, they have continued their assaults of terrorist attacks, and on other, they have raised an army of self-styled liberals who shield their misdeeds.
The "war of terror" has been dented by relentless overground 'attacks' in name of secularism, liberalism, human rights, you name it. The rise in the instances of these Jihad supporter filing cases for rights and discrimination on almost everything - from the beard and viel to 'hurt feelings' have seen a dramatic increase over the past few years. This is all being driven by these opinion terrorists trotting around as liberal/ moderate Muslim organizations. If this war on Jihad has to be ended conclusively, the funding and moral war of these shady organizations like CAIR must be rubbled deep into the ocean.
" Unless the BJP can form Govt in its own right, I don't think that Modi has a realistic chance of being PM. "
Modi can be PM if BJP wins 200+ seats. There is no need for BJP to get 272.
Here is a useful exposé on how CAIR is linked with Hamas:
http://www.investigativeproject.org/2340/federal-judge-agrees-cair-tied-to-hamas
Look at the writings of these people:
"And let's not hoist a large Islamic flag, and let's not be barbaric-talking. We will remain a front so that if the thing happens, we will benefit from the new happenings instead of having all of our organizations classified and exposed."
Right from the horse's mouth. Exposed? Why were they trying to hide?
Here's another noteworthy revelation:
In another exhibit, titled "Preliminary vision for preparing future leadership," dated Dec. 18, 1998, ISNA is listed as an "apparatus" of the Brotherhood. When the Holy Land Foundation first began, it raised money and supported Hamas through a bank account it held with ISNA and NAIT. ISNA checks deposited into the account were often payable to "the Palestinian Mujahiden."
Zafar, if you're so interested in this Holy Land, which has nothing to do with India, then why don't you go live in this Holy Land, and stop troubling Indians? Go live where your heart is, rather than trying to shove yourself among others like a finger up their nose. We want nothing to do with your supra-national Islamic bloc. Indians are a local people seeking to live their local lives, and not be ensnared into your holy wars. When I see Mulayam Singh Yadav promising to support Palestine, just to curry favour with your community, I'm quite sure that he couldn't even find Palestine on a map. But of course you will support ignorant thugs like him as long as they support your faraway holy wars. My suggestion is that you both leave to go live in that faraway Holy Land, which has no relationship with India - other than ones you'd like to contrive. Then you can live contentedly where your heart is, and Indians can also live contentedly concerning themselves with their own local affairs, instead of becoming hostage to the politics of your supra-national ethnic bloc. The current arrangement, which you have sought to impose, is unsustainable. The Leftists seek refuge in your support because they know their kleptocracy with its economic fairytales are unsustainable, and you seek refuge in them because you know your extra-territorialist supra-nationalism is unacceptable and unsustainable to the locals along with its forced insertion into local affairs.
People want to live their own lives, concerning themselves with their local affairs. They don't want any part in your holy war. Go take it somewhere else, instead of injecting it into Indian society, and then trying fatuously label anyone who opposes you as communal. It's absolutely farcical.
Ghai,
>> Now I have no reason at all not to trust Fox News . You and Fox News are a perfect fit!
The Anwaars and the Zafars are trying to disingenuously dodge the long track record of Islamic chauvinism and its persecution of non-Muslims, while trying to concoct their own home-made vocabulary of manufactured grievance. Again, the more you attempt to demonize Modi and your fellow countrymen, the more you expose your loyalty to the supra-national collective you prefer over your local countrymen. No society likes to be treated like a hotel, no society wants to see its people become the victims of the Great Islamic Pile-On.
Don't worry Zafar and Anwaar - I can continue issuing replies as long as you can. And as you can see, nobody's thumbing-up your claptrap except yourselves. I'm very glad to continue my efforts to deconstruct your propaganda.
Anwaar claims that anybody who disagrees with him is a "bajrangi", and likewise Zafar claims that anybody who disagrees with him is a "hindutvaadi". Hell, I'm an atheist, but you can see that anybody who doesn't meet their own falsely contrived "standards" will be subject to their slander. So we can see the future that Anwaar and Zafar want for us, whereby we're all supposed to become hostages to their self-serving morality and their approval. No thanks - nobody is going to fall for this nonsense. Nobody wants to see your tail wagging their dog.
Anwaar and Zafar simply don't understand what makes for credible interaction between communities. Mutual respect, which Islam doesn't accord to others because it uncompromisingly sees itself as the ultimate perfection, deviation from which can only mean heresy and ungodliness. So these 2 will continue to haplessly spout their claptrap, in the vain hope that their sheer torrent of nonsensical arguments will obscure their lack of quality.
On the contrary - where Muslims are in the majority, they have no qualms about asserting majority chauvinism, which shows that such chauvinism is built into the religion. There is not one Muslim-majority country where minorities are treated as well as Muslim minorities are in the non-Muslim world. Meanwhile, Muslim minorities everywhere are involved in armed conflict against the majority. The statistics bear out the fact that Islam has a strong collectivist chauvinist political bent - and even a militant one.
Muslims bring up Palestine all the time - there's no need for non-Muslims to bring it up, when the pan-Islamist collective is always rearing its ugly head. The rest of us have a right to be fed up with this. The fact that you eagerly segued into that topic is just more proof of that supra-national political collective in action. The rest of us have a right to be fed up with the Great Islamic Pile-On, so you can be sure that we won't let the issue rest until you do.
Islam commits provocation, and when others respond you try to label them chauvinists. The only fake sympathizers for your viewpoint are Leftists -- and of course they're only fake sympathizers, because they're just looking for your political alliance to further their collectivist cause. Islamic collectivism and socialist collectivism have merely formed a marriage of convenience. Both are based on fairytales which are unsustainable against the onslaught of reality and rationality, and this is why both seek refuge in one another.
"Where I am in the minority, we shall only talk about minority rights. Where I am in the majority, we will stamp out minority rights. Then we will peddle this as justice with a straight face. What's Mine is Mine, What's Yours We Share."
>> CAIR is a well-known affiliate of Hamas.
What a liar! If CAIR was an affiliate of Hamas, it would have been closed down by the FBI long ago.
>> That picture poster was part of CAIR's campaign to oppose Muslim cooperation with the FBI.
What was the date on that poster?
>> those who are reflective, self-critical, and introspective.
What a pompous ass! You are neither reflective, self-critical nor introspective.
>> By taking up the causes of terrorist outfits, and being a shield for the Hamas.
I am sure they are sympathetic to Hamas, as many Muslims are, but if they did anything to support Hamas, they will be closed down by the FBI in one minute. But you, as a professional hate pracharak, can be fully expected to bring up charges that precede the post-9/11 rules!
>> "They are doing excellent advocacy work, fighting discrimination and hatred. " - Anwaar
Yes, that is true. By taking up the causes of terrorist outfits, and being a shield for the Hamas, they are playing their little role in elimination of anyone who does not subsume to the Jehadis. It these jokers could have their way, the Islamists will be the only ones left on the planet. Then, there will be no discrimination, and no hatred!!
It seems Outlook has taken a New Year's resolution to publish articles on Modi in every issue. Strange obsession for a magazine!!! No other reason explains publication of this article which is useless and conveys no information.
Don't be disingeneous - Hindutva is a political pov, it is not dependent on religious belief at all. A political pov, it must be said, that seems to be obsessed with Muslims and how bad/global/powerful/dangerous they (we?) are. Hence:
[your own eager side-tracking into the Israeli-Palestine issue ]
But Sanjay, *you* brought up Palestine, not me. And then you misunderstood them as 100% Muslim (what about their Christian minority?), and failed to see any parallels between their being colonised by Israel and India being colonised by the British.
Re why India should make peace with Pakistan - because it is in our interest to do so. It is also in their interest, but I don't think that we gain anything by not doing our utmost to achieve it, on our own terms. We would not be doing them a random favour - I repeat, it would be good for us.
[Don't feel that you have to slum it with us unworthy Indians.]
Sez you from the fastness of Beverly Hills. Walk the talk brother, if you want to that talk to be taken seriously.
"In the seven years I have been a member...." Faruki
Now I have no reason at all not to trust Fox News .
>> If you trust Fox news on CAIR
Hush. Fox news on CAIR should not be trusted. Fox News itself should not be trusted. It is filled with Christian right wingers, zionists, and of course, Sanghis. But, New Age Islam, and Mili Gazette, should be trusted.
The lone journalist who accused two BJP MLAs in Gujarat of watching porn should of course be trusted. The state FSL should not be. Teesta and the sicko brigade who claim that a pregnant woman had her fetus ripped out, should be believed. Doctors and prosecutors, who can't find any evidence of the same, should not be believed.
You see a pattern here?
I am impressed with your language and articulate expressions. If you really live in Beverly Hills,well, I envy you. Thats a beautiful habitat or shall I say one of the cleanest areas I have seen.
Once again, blindly chanting "Foxsh Newj" and "Shaffron Breegade" doesn't help your credibility one bit. CAIR is a well-known affiliate of Hamas. That picture poster was part of CAIR's campaign to oppose Muslim cooperation with the FBI, and even they themselves admitted to it, and later withdrew the posters. But because you live in denial on everything, and are incapable of any self-criticism, self-examination or introspection of any kind, you'll only reflexively try to pin the blame on others.
So really, the conflict between Muslims and non-Muslims is not just a mere sectarian conflict. It could more aptly be described as a conflict between those who are reflective, self-critical, and introspective, versus those who pretend they have some divine 7th-century truth which absolves them of having to self-criticize, self-examine or introspect in any way. Realistically, no group can just blindly maintain such behaviour and hope to get along with others. Such fools are doomed to unite the world against them.
You'll continue to delude yourselves with the ignorant fantasy that enough lip-flapping, enough net-posting, enough letter-writing, enough "outreach" can be a substitute for basic standards and obligatory practices for coexistence, which you exempt yourselves from.
"So call them up and tell them you’re a Hindutvadi. What are you waiting for?"
Again, I'm an atheist, and I don't believe in any Hindu gods, nor do I believe in or pray to any god whatsoever. As far as I'm concerned, Hindu mythology is fiction, just like Greek or Norse mythology. You must be under the delusion that disliking Islamic collectivist politics means that one has to be a member of a religion.
But hey, feel free to yap your head off, since nobody here buys your claptrap anyway. Is that just your lone friend Anwaar thumbing-up your posts? I know you think you're making some grand case for yourselves by droning on and on, but all you're doing is helping me to prove my points. It's not just me feeling this way - there's a whole wider world that's getting pretty fed up with Islamist communal antics.
Your Leftist friends can't save you, because their economic fairytales can't prop up your Prophet's fairytales. Fools of a feather flocking together - and going down together - like the blind leading the blind.
>> Now I know who filled your brains with hatred.
Look who is talking about hatred! Show me a single post in which I expressed hatred for Hindus or Hinduism. Even my comments on Modi/BJP/RSS are milder than what you guys say of Congress/MMS/Sonia.
Making peace with Pakistan? You seem to conveniently forget who started the war - they did.
No effort is required on our part for something we're not at fault for. Effort is required on Pakistan's part for something they're entirely responsible for. You're very quick to give them the benefit of any doubt - doubts that you'd like to sew.
India has shown goodwill to Pakistan again and again, only to be stabbed in the back again and again. You conveniently forget about episodes like Kargill, where they attacked us during peace talks. I realize that it's the instinct of a Muslim to always give his co-religionists a free pass, even while mechanically repeating "shafffrronn breegade" over and over, but you really overestimate your credibility from doing this.
No thanks, I'm not interested in being a permanent sucker. Like the old saying goes, "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me." And of course, Fool Me Dozens of Times, and we'll call you "sekoolar" and elect you PM.
Zafar, your own eager side-tracking into the Israeli-Palestine issue only helps me demonstrates to all our non-Muslim readers exactly what I've been saying: Muslims are never just a local minority, but a large trans-nationalist/supra-nationalist ethnic bloc. Those who hue to a local existence are mainly interested in local issues. But those who are a supra-national/trans-national bloc are quick to expose their fixation on distant issues (which affect their extended limbs of the wider "ummah" or collective).
As in the case of Gujarat, it's always the Great Islamic Pile-On. The wider collective always manifests itself, and locals are very justified in not wanting to put up with it. Feel free to go live in the Middle East, near Mecca, if that's where your heart is. Don't feel that you have to slum it with us unworthy Indians. Nobody in their right mind wants to be treated like a hotel. Nobody wants to be victimized or harassed by your extended collective.
Hey, I hate to break the hard news of reality to you, but it's not just Indians who are fed up with this. Americans don't like it, British don't like it, Germans don't like it. In the aftermath of the shootings in France, they're again reminded that they don't like it. You'll get a chance to see just how much after the results of their elections, which are just a few weeks away. But I'm sure you'll whine about persecution there too.
But hey, don't feel you have to stay stuck living in these Dar-ul-whatever lands of infidel persecution. Feel free to pack up and live with those cosy co-religionist cousins. Don't let the door hit you on the way out.
>> "In the seven years I have been a member...." - Anwaar
Hmm... Now I know who filled your brains with hatred...
If you trust Fox news on CAIR, you should get your head examined. CAIR has itself cooperated with FBI on several of its investigations. In the seven years I have been a member, it has never asked anyone to boycott the FBI, but it aggressively fights the FBI when the FBI invites rabid Islamophobes as speakers for the FBI training programs. The usual anti-CAIR propaganda on anti-Muslim websites is based on news which predates 9/11/2001. These hate websites keep repeating the same old news again and again. You seem to be the kind of fellow who gets his news from Fox News, Russ Limbaugh and anti-Muslim hate websites! Heaven help you!
[You pretend that pitching for accommodation with the Pakistani apartheid state makes you a hero for minority rights.]
Frankly making peace with Pakistan would be an unambiguously good thing for India. How is that appeasement? And how does refusing to encourage peace, and the peaceful (and more secular) forces within Pakistani society, help anybody, most of all Pakistan’s minorities?
[A more ethical stance would be, "I will opppose restoration of normal ties with Pakistan]
But normal ties with Pakistan are precisely what will encourage them to become a normal country instead of a Sunni version of Iran – with a constituency for peace and engagement with India built up by self interest. Consider Germany and France – two world wars, millions dead, and how did they finally get a permanent peace? Trade and investment – they may nto like each other, but they now make too much money off each other in the EU to even think of an armed conflict again. Their constituencies for peace are solidly based on self interest, and are therefore robust.
Imagine if there were as many voices in Pakistan demanding peace with India because their livelihoods depended on it as there are voices today demanding conflict with India because they need to justify Army expenditure and salaries? If Wagah helps us towards this, even in a small way, then I say we should encourage it.
[You're obviously ignorant of the Israeli-Egyptian Camp David Peace Accords]
The Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs helpfully provides the full text of the Peace Accords:
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Peace%20Process/Guide%20to%20the%20Peace%20Process/Israel-Egypt%20Peace%20Treaty
From the preamble:
“Noting that the aforementioned Framework as appropriate is intended to constitute a basis for peace not only between Egypt and Israel but also between Israel and each of its other Arab neighbors which is prepared to negotiate peace with it on this basis; “Desiring to bring to an end the state of war between them and to establish a peace in which every state in the area can live in security;”
Now occupying the West Bank, displacing the indigenous inhabitants and replacing them with settlers does not seem to be congruent with any desire to ‘establish a peace in which every state in the area can live in security’, does it?
[Egypt is actually supposed to help police the border with Gaza as part of the peace agreement.]
Yes, and they continue to do so - but do you really think that their intention on signing the accord was to become a policeman on Israel’s behalf, forcing Palestinians to smuggle the necessities of life into Gaza through tunnels, and reducing a big section of the population to penury? Review that preamble and you might see why they are unimpressed with Israel’s delivery on these broader issues.
[As for Modi, it's not one Gujarati against another]
Actually Zakia Jaffri is a Gujarati, so it *does* involve two Gujaratis going to court over the alleged involvement of one of them in the murder of the other one’s (Gujarati) husband. Trying to make it about Gujarati Asmita is particularly brainless – unless you think that killing Ehsan Jaffri after chopping off his fingers and making him say Jai Sri Ram was a matter for Gujaratis (or indeed Ram Bhakts) to take pride in?
[Doesn't matter, Right will win over Wrong in the end.]
I hope so.
[There is no call by any Hindu for a boycott of cooperation with the FBI.]
So call them up and tell them you’re a Hindutvadi. What are you waiting for?
Abandoning the candle-waving at Wagah will generate credibility with the rest of India, instead of blindly pursuing co-religionist ties with an apartheid state. There is nothing to be gained from appeasing that apartheid state and its chauvinist ruling thugs. Please don't imagine they will ever welcome you with open arms, because even Jinnah is now a heretic to them. Hell, they can't even bring themselves to repatriate the Bihari Muslims of Bangladesh, who stood with them in the 1971 War, when they were all massacring East Bengalis together. Nope, the Pakistani ethnocracy can't be bothered about Bihari Muslims, just as it couldn't be bothered to spare East Bengalis. Their zeal for Islam is mainly due to their desire to prevent non-Punjabis from breaking away from Punjabi rule. The Pakjabi elite only care about themselves, and that's the main utility they have for Islam. Trying to live for them in the vain hope that they'll be caring for you is just self-delusion.
There is no call by any Hindu for a boycott of cooperation with the FBI. After all, it's part of civic duy to cooperate with law enforcement personnel. It's only Muslims who go out of their way to brand all such institutions as "biased" and enemies of their community to whom they pledge foremost allegiance, rather than to the nation in which they reside. Say what you want, but the overwhelming statistics on terrorist acts show who is most disloyal and most hostile to nation-states in which they reside. Islam is a trans-nationalist/supra-nationalist ideology, and therefore it can never coexist with nation states -- especially with nations where it does not rule as the majority. Muslims are only able to get along with others to the extent that they disregard Islam, and reduce it to abstraction. That's the best way forward for Muslims - to be Muslim in name only, and not in belief. Because to truly follow the proscriptions of the Koran is to automatically put oneself in conflict with other non-Muslims.
You pretend that pitching for accommodation with the Pakistani apartheid state makes you a hero for minority rights. No, it doesn't - it makes you an appeaser and supporter of an apartheid state, no matter how heroically you try to spin that. Nobody ever claimed that supporting apartheid South Africa would help it treat coloureds better. All you're doing is coming up with contrived rationalizations designed to suit your own hypocrisy. A more ethical stance would be, "I will opppose restoration of normal ties with Pakistan, even though it's populated by Muslims like me, because Pakistan is an apartheid state in the name of religion." Only a moral coward and hypocrite tries to pretend, "Helping to appease Pakistan will improve the lot of non-Muslim minorities there, and will encourage it to ends its apartheid" -- sorry, but all you're displaying is ugly self-serving hypocrisy. Nobody believes you, but that won't stop you from trying to decieve yourself.
You're obviously ignorant of the Israeli-Egyptian Camp David Peace Accords, which have nothing to do with the West Bank or Gaza Strip. Egypt is actually supposed to help police the border with Gaza as part of the peace agreement. So really, you're just broadcasting your own ignorance loudly. Israel has scrupulously honoured its part of Camp David Peace Treaty, but since you're an ignorant Muslim communalist, you'll claim that Camp David has to do with the West Bank, or with Lebanon, or with anything your deluded mind can come up with.
As for Modi, it's not one Gujarati against another -- it's the Great Islamic Pile-On, as usual. When is it ever different with that community. If the Great Islamic Pile-On can be done against Modi, it can be done against anybody. Just a smear campaign.
Doesn't matter, Right will win over Wrong in the end. Modi has a lot of supporters, and we'll all stay the course to ensure he prevails over the Leftist and Islamist crooks. When a man is being subjected to an unjust vilification campaign, it just makes the rest of us firm up and push back harder. We'll win in the end, and your crooked side will lose. You can keep flapping your lips, and we'll still perservere.
For all the Muslim excuses about how "jihad-is-struggle", not a one of them has ever been able to "struggle" any one of them towards the future. Their struggle is invariably always jostling its way back to the 7th century.
Three and half responses just for me? That must mean that you like me a lot!! Right?!!
[Certainly, it's entirely appropriate for non-Muslims to view Muslim-majority discrimination as unacceptable.]
I agree with that, but how about it being appropriate to just view all discrimination as unacceptable? Are you opposed to all discrimination?
If one is consistent, it makes things very straightforward and clear.
[Attempting to rationalize accommodation of Muslim-majority chauvinism (eg. Islamic Republic of Pakistan) from the one side of the mouth while crying "minority rights" exclusively for oneself is an unacceptable hypocrisy.]
But I’m “crying minority rights” for them too! I don’t think Pakistan should discriminate against its minorities (or against its women, btw).
I just don’t see how shutting down candle waving at Wagah will do anything to help their minorities or ours. You didn’t explain how that would work.
[I never see any Muslim countries or activists seeking peace with Israel on the grounds that reduced tensions will mean better treatment of Palestinians.]
This may be a surprise to you, but Israel does not currently have a hot war with any Arab country, and has actually signed peace treaties with all its neighbours. (Egypt being the most important.) A big motivation for Egypt to sign the peace treaty was assurances (unmet) about better treatment of the Palestinians. The reason the treaty has never been popular in Egypt is that Israel never lived up to these promises (and in fact continues to occupy the West Bank and to fence in occasionally bomb the Gaza strip – where this has been sort of counter-productive wrt the kind of people elected and the kind of political positions – Islamist – that are becoming entrenched, in comparison to the relatively secular West Bank. This last point is actually quite relevant).
[Since you're screeching against Modi, why not apply your self-same logic and recognize that the less conflict you pursue against Gujarat and their popularly-supported Chief Minister, the less tensions there will be between Hindus and Muslims?]
Hey, the court case against Modi was brought by a Gujarati woman. It didn’t come from a stranger from outside Gujarat. It’s one Gujarati against another. She’s accusing him of being implicated in the murder of her husband (another Gujarati). The courts have yet to speak on this. Who are you to say that she should not bring this case, or that she has not right to justice?
[A community that is always one-sidedly demanding that everyone make concessions]
Justice is not a concession to any one. Justice is an absolute good for the whole of society, whatever the religion of the victim and whatever the religion of the perpetrator.
[Polytheism and monotheism are not 2 sides of the same coin - they are quite different, and born of different politics.]
But they have nothing to do with ethnicity, do they? I could believe in the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster
[Indian Muslims are "diverse" in spite of the fact they are Muslims. They were diverse before they converted to Islam - an act of attempted homogenization.]
Whatever the reason, they ARE diverse, right? So they cannot at the same time also be monolithic and one bloc. See the contradiction?
[I don't see any Muslim activists support the diversity of Ahmadiya Muslims to be included in the so-called "diversity" of Islam]
I’m not here to defend Islam or Pakistan or Jinnah. You need to take these issues up with someone who cares about them. Nobody on Outlook does – we are all ELM pseudosec types, remember?
[Your beloved CAIR exhorts Muslims in America to boycott the FBI]
Hey I heard that the FBI is investigating Hindutvadis in the US for links to fascist organisations, which might be cause for cancelling their greencards. Did you know that? I applaud your intention to cooperate with them. It’s very high minded of you. In fact why don’t you save them the trouble of tracing your IP address and just give them a call and offer to be interviewed?
[ dar-ul-Islam and dar-ul-Haram]
Dar-ul-HARB, ya aql ke dushman::
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divisions_of_the_world_in_Islam#Dar_al-Harb_.28House_of_war.29
You make it sound like the Land of Beer and Pork Rinds.
Anwar and Zafar,
Here you go, kiddies:
http://weaselzippers.us/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/CAIR-dont-talk-to-the-fbi-poster.jpg
Your beloved CAIR exhorts Muslims in America to boycott the FBI (I really can't call them "American Muslims" since they can't come to terms with what America is all about). Such is CAIR's sense of "Americanness". Such is the so-called "loyalty" that Muslims show the countries in which they reside. It really does confirm non-Muslim suspicions over what's directly written in the Koran about dar-ul-Islam and dar-ul-Haram. It seems that even while Muslims pretentiously claim that their religion compels them to be loyal, the same Muslims will conveniently redefine what loyalty is, in order to meet the compulsions of their religion. That's just a farcical way of trying to have your cake and eat it too.
Indian Muslims are "diverse" in spite of the fact they are Muslims. They were diverse before they converted to Islam - an act of attempted homogenization. I don't see any Muslim activists support the diversity of Ahmadiya Muslims to be included in the so-called "diversity" of Islam. Anyone who tries to show diversity gets branded a heretic. But we all know that despite the Shia Ismaili Jinnah's stunt in creating Pakistan, his people will never be accepted by the Sunni majority there, and the growing Sunnification of Pakistan means that the chances of it grow ever dimmer by the day. So Jinnah's own selfishness only helped to wreck the future of his own progeny. The fool never realized that by pursuing his homogenized "Land of the Pure", that the day would come where he wouldn't pass its purity test. Such is the folly of Islamist thinking.
Again, the relations between Muslims and non-Muslims continue to grow worse everywhere in the world. India is no exception to this wider global trend. It's a community that refuses to assimilate or accept rational laws, because it has set itself up as a rival pole to rational thought. They'll never accept Uniform Civil Code, they'll never accept that you have to show your face to get a driver's license, or to testify in court. They'll always try to build mosques at Ground Zero. They'll always reject any introspection or self-examination of any sort, and so they'll never improve. They'll never accept basic ordinary precepts of rationality. They'll continue to make ad-hoc alliances with the Left in a marriage of convenience, as they desperately seek to wriggle away from the necessities of rational coexistence. That's why Muslims always vote for the worst and most regressive politicians.
They will only cause other people to lose patience with them. It's a community doomed to partake in their own self-made exercise of futility. They just don't get it-- they seriously imagine that if they just flap their lips fast enough, then they'll take flight. It just makes me feel pity.
Polytheism and monotheism are not 2 sides of the same coin - they are quite different, and born of different politics. Monotheism is born of the desire to impose uniformity, while polytheism is the accommodation of different beliefs. The same Muslims who refuse to allow diversity of belief in God and who demand uniformity and submission in following their one scriptural interpretation, are the same Muslims who stubbornly reject Uniform Civil Code. When it comes to the advancement of their own self-centred agenda, then they want to have it both ways.
Non-Muslims are quite right to be wary of such hypocrisy. Any non-Muslim country is under threat by this type of communal selfishness from the so-called "Religion of Peace".
"What's Mine is Mine, What's Yours We Share. When I am in the minority, then I want only exclusively talk about minority rights. When I am in the majority, I never want minority rights to be discussed. If someone else is opposing my selfish line, then I will brand them a chauvinist, but I will never recognize any chauvinism among my own ilk"
@Zafar,
Oddly enough, minorities in Pakistan are 2nd-class citizens whether during peacetime or wartime:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/26/world/asia/pakistani-hindus-say-womans-conversion-to-islam-was-coerced.html
Certainly, it's entirely appropriate for non-Muslims to view Muslim-majority discrimination as unacceptable. Attempting to rationalize accommodation of Muslim-majority chauvinism (eg. Islamic Republic of Pakistan) from the one side of the mouth while crying "minority rights" exclusively for oneself is an unacceptable hypocrisy. Pretending that one is acting in the interest of all minorities by accommodating Muslim-majority chauvinism is betrayal of non-Muslim minorities in the guise of pretending to act for a greater good. aka "What's Mine is Mine, What's Yours We Share"
I never see any Muslim countries or activists seeking peace with Israel on the grounds that reduced tensions will mean better treatment of Palestinians. Since you're screeching against Modi, why not apply your self-same logic and recognize that the less conflict you pursue against Gujarat and their popularly-supported Chief Minister, the less tensions there will be between Hindus and Muslims?
Ohh, of course when the onus is put on you, then you will of course refuse. So, nope, sorry - until and unless your community and its communal activists abandon their nasty communal campaign against Modi, I see no credibility in your arguments. Believe me, you're only sawing off the branch you're sitting on, sacrificing any future in India by pursuing your vendetta politics. I will certainly be supporting my side -- the non-Muslim side -- against hypocrites like you, long after you grow hoarse.
A community that is always one-sidedly demanding that everyone make concessions to them, while insisting they owe no concessions to anyone else -- that's a community which is doomed to unite everyone outside their community against them.
@ Whatever
[You seemed to have missed out Saudi Arabia and Bahrain for some reason.]
It wasn’t a definitive list, just some examples. Saudi and Bahrain definitely belong on it, but so do many African and South American leaders whom I would have difficulty naming.
[Whether oversight or design]
How delightful! What about a third option? Can I call a friend?
[if you feel you have more in common with Pakistani minorities, then please don't support the so-called "peace process" with the religious apartheid state of Pakistan. All these Wagah candle-wavers of the Left seem to get a lot of support from those who see Pakistanis first and foremost as their co-religionists.]
Muslims in India are treated better (with less suspicion and hostility) when the country is going through a peaceful patch with Pakistan. When Indo-Pakistani relations are going through a violent phase, the rest of the country scapegoats us – that’s why we’re happy to see rapprochement and wary of conflict. (Because [coward] d***heads decide that the easier way to express conflict is against [unarmed] us, rather than against the [armed] enemy across the boarder.)
Similarly, in Pakistan and Bangladesh, local minorities (Hindus and Buddhists, perhaps also Christians?) suffer during times of confrontation or conflict with India, and local Hindus definitely do better when their countries are going through a peaceful stage with us. For precisely the same reasons. If you really wanted some concrete good outcomes for minorities in Pakistan you would support the Waggah candle wavers, not oppose them, no matter how ineffectual they are. My supporting (increasingly unlikely) peace with Pakistan shows not just a sensitivity to my own well being, but a sympathy for Pakistan’s Hindu minority. (A sympathy you seem to completely lack, btw, going by your words.)
This is actually not something that is limited to the subcontinent. When relations between Turkey and Greece improve, the lives of the tiny Greek minority in Istanbul (and the less tiny Turkish minority in Western Thrace) also improve. When relations between the countries deteriorate, there is always some idiot who takes it out on defenceless local minorities.
[http://a57.foxnews.com/]
Seriously? You’re quoting Fox News? You’ll get more accurate news from Disney Channel, frankly.
[I think it's obvious that Muslims are not a minority in India, but a plurality.]
Are you using words without understanding their meaning?
[Polytheism is not the result of monolithic ethnic majority, but of a large cluster of distinct ethnicities.]
More bakwas. Polytheism/monotheism are religious philosophies, they have zero to do with ethnicity. Indian Hindus and Muslims are basically of the same ethnicity: Indian. Most of us are descended from the Dalits who converted because they were being oppressed by Hindu society. There is no ethnic difference between you and me.
[Islam, on the other hand, certainly promotes monolithic collectivism, and a single unitary bloc.]
In that case how come Indian Muslims are AS DIVERSE in their customs and beliefs as Indian Hindus are in theirs? Ajmer Sharif Kahan aur Imam Bukhari Kahan aur Javed Anand/Shabana Azmi kahan?
[One has only to see how Muslim-majority countries behave, and how they treat minorities, to understand this.]
Understanding, like charity, begins at home. Across the country Indian Muslim communities, just like Indian Hindu communities, vote for a variety of political parties. How do you explain that, if they are so monolithic and vote in blocs? Some of them even vote for the BJP, or so the BJP tells us. How do you explain that?
[In India, the Islamic bloc is the largest of all ethnicities, and therefore exercises influence in disproportion to its numbers.]
That must be why all Indian Muslims are so rich. And why they dominate the Armed Services and the Bureaucracy. And all the good neighbourhoods. And all the good jobs. Mashallah, you have certainly explained a lot with your insights.
@ SS Nagaraj
[Your going off at a tangent]
Ftw, look in a mirror man.
Zafar, I think it's obvious that Muslims are not a minority in India, but a plurality. A plurality means the largest minority group in a cluster of minorities. Polytheism is not the result of monolithic ethnic majority, but of a large cluster of distinct ethnicities. Islam, on the other hand, certainly promotes monolithic collectivism, and a single unitary bloc. One has only to see how Muslim-majority countries behave, and how they treat minorities, to understand this.
Indian Muslims are not a tiny minority - they are the largest minority in a sea of minorities. They are the largest group, and their voting patterns show bloc behaviour, which is in contrast to all the other minorities of India, who are presumptously grouped together as a "Hindu majority". Polytheism is the result of diverse ethnicities, and not monolithic majorities. Islamic values are obviously the result of ethnic consolidation and a bloc mentality. In India, the Islamic bloc is the largest of all ethnicities, and therefore exercises influence in disproportion to its numbers. It is the non-Muslims of India, in their various disparate ethnicities who are the real minorities. They have no such religious proscription for consolidation and bloc behaviour.
Islam is an extremely collectivist religion - more so than any other religion on the planet. Islam is never in the minority. That is the whole purpose of the religion - collectivism.
Zafar, if you feel you have more in common with Pakistani minorities, then please don't support the so-called "peace process" with the religious apartheid state of Pakistan. All these Wagah candle-wavers of the Left seem to get a lot of support from those who see Pakistanis first and foremost as their co-religionists. Here, the duplicitous opportunistic Left are serving as a proxy for co-religionist hypocrites, who would otherwise not like to advertise their sectarian affinities.
Anwaar, if you support CAIR, then the rest of us should be wary of you. Remember that CAIR is the same organization that urges Muslims to boycott the FBI:
http://a57.foxnews.com/static/managed/img/U.S./660/371/poster%20on%20cair%20site.jpg
They want to ensure that Muslims stonewall the local security agencies that are designated to protect the country from threats. This is how Islam tries to undermine the civic obligations that all citizens must have towards their countries of residence. From the one side of their mouths, Muslim activists claim that Islam requires them to show loyalty to the countries where they live, but from the other side of their mouths they badmouth the civic organs and institutions and openly defy them - which is the actual reality that belies the Islamic self-promotional rhetoric. Those of us who are outside of that community aren't fooled by its continually self-serving propaganda. Which other religious group behaves like this? None.
Mohammed Othaman/Parbat/Sandhu/Ramdas/Thomas,
>> You yourself are notorious as a spokesman for CAIR, a US Islamist propaganda outfit that has been blacklisted by the State Department.
I am not their spokesman but I am their strong supporter. They are doing excellent advocacy work, fighting discrimination and hatred. They openly take on the FBI, Congressmen, state police departments and media. They have come to the defence of Jews and Sikhs who were the victims of hate crimes. No shady organization would be able to do it especially under the watchful eye of the FBI. Your hatefulness would be well known in this forum if you did not change your name so often and did not assume Muslim ID's.
>> " in South Asia belonging to a majority seems to result in certain commonalities wrt point of view about oneself and the world, while belonging to a minority results in different, but similarly common, points of view and sensibilities. Minorities all instinctively understand this, majorities don't."
An excellent observation.
Nasar Ahmad :"The powerful Gujarat lobby in US along with VHP and other organisations are extremely active.They ensure that the NRI Hindus turn anti Muslim on landing in US."
This really gave me a good laugh.
Paging Mr Whatever, paging Mr Whatever on Air India flight from Mumbai. Pls go to the Gujrati lobby counter on the first floor. People are waiting to turn you anti-muslim.
@ Zafar;" I think their much vaunted focus on human rights takes the back seat far too often when convenient (with Saddam Hussain, with Mubarak, with Noriega, with the Pakistani Generals, with Sharon, with Rajapakse....) to argue that it would, for some reason, be dominant in this one case."
You seemed to have missed out Saudi Arabia and Bahrain for some reason. Whether oversight or design, you should know better.
Zafar@22D, Spewing venom on Modi by calling him the 'Butcher of Gujarat'only highlights your hate filled mind.You are not that important for me to take the trouble of upsetting you.Your going off at a tangent without condemning those Muslims who roasted alive 59 innocent Hindu women and children at Godhra station and overlooking the fact that a third of those who were killed in riots were Hindus is typical of a biased mind.How can one avoid comparing Rajiv Gandhi who organised slaughter of more than five thousand Sikhs for over three days,with Narendra Modi who ordered police firing on rioters and brought in the army on the very second day?Yet,you call him a butcher.You have conveniently avoided mentioning Jinnah,who organised one of the greatest mass killings in known history.
The Americans will deal with whoever is PM - they are pragmatic. What is being written is for their policy makers not for Indians. BTW, plenty of goofballs have been on Times cover or Times Man of the Year just like there have been plenty of greats. So it is not a defacto badge of honor. However, it is for Indians to decide and fortunately in this era of coilation governments, his chance of PM is as probable as "hell freezing over". Congress has no chance of forming a non-coilation government - BJP has even much less of chance. Fortunately, for us Times Cover, Brookings Institute or for that many any other think tank doesn't mean much to most of our voters - and rightly so shouldn't.
Those in the BJP who believe otherwise continue to buy that it is OK to lose the war to win the battle (as opposed to the other way around). He might become CM for Life of Gujarat, he might make Gujarat the economically most successful State, he might get the most FDI but fortunately Gujarat is just one part of India.