Kalra,

>> "accept and respect your contrary position. We can always agree to disagree."

You are a gentleman.

Anwaar,

I accept and respect your contrary position. We can always agree to disagree.

Take care.

It is indeed heartening to see that Gen Nair, Katoch, Shakar Roy Choudhary, Vijay Oberoi, Harwant Singh, GD Bakshi, Ajay Shukla and Maroof Raja (all veterans who carry excellent `spoken reputation' in the Army) are speaking up for General VK Singh. There can not be any better endorsement of his righteous stand.

Kalra,

If the problem is systemic, as you suggest, then the Chief going to the court for his age question is hardly the solution. In fact it hardly behooves a man who has been given the highest rank in the army to take the government to court for his personal grievance which would seem to be petty to most people. I continue to be aware that I may be wrong, but nobody has given a convincing explanation of why I am wrong.

   " Things fall apart;                                                                                                               the centre cannot hold.                                                                                                     Mere anarchy is loosed                                                                                                     Upon the world.         W.B. Yeats ( The Second Coming )

Just replace World by India and the state of present-day india is summed up.                    Dr. Manmohan Singh has been known to come from a humble ground, A hard working and  honest person with tons of humility. Like Rajiv Gandhi and his nemesis VP Singh he has disappointed us, rather failed us in his second innings. Gen Nayar is absolutely right.

@ Anwaar

"He should have fought it within the department,"

He did. He exhausted all options before approaching MoD and then SC.

"and if he could not prevail,"

Which he did not....

"he should have swallowed his pride and ceded."

Who are we to decide. Why don't you offer this gratuitous advise to the MoD that it should have swallowed its pride and accepted the 1951 DoB. Why should all the bending and twisting be reserved for the army. It is Gen V K Singh and not Ramdev. Can't bend beyond a point.

"An open fight between the top officer of the army and the civilian government is not only unbecoming but a bad example for other officers and soldiers."

Really? I don't agree. Maj Gen Arora (Ref: Outlook article on this case), whose promotions were delayed so that the favorite horse did not face competition in the line of succession, did not go to courts. What example has he set for the force? Who remembers his so called 'sacrifice' today. A mention in a few articles and a retired life to mull over what could have been.

Please understand these soldiers and officers are like any other central government employees. They have careers, aspirations and respect attached with ranks. Government employees going to court is nothing new. Somehow you expect a different code from the forces - lay down your lives without a murmur but don't be seen fighting for basic rights.

"Realistically speaking, how big is the issue? Can the problem be generalized to the whole service?"

For the person concerned it is big. He is the one fighting. He is the one who has to face consequences.

Yes it can be generalized. The administrators have rode roughshod over the forces for a long time. Procurement, one rank-one pay and many more issues are caused by administrative apathy. However, when it comes to calling the COAS a liar and orchestrating a media campaign against him it crosses limits of tolerance.

What is also not good is meddling in promotions and top leadership of the army. The last time it was done was in early 60's with Gen Thapar and Lt Gen Kaul being very close to Nehru. We all know what happened in the war in 1962. Both gentlemen resigned in disgrace after the defeat.

This time too the subtext is manipulating leadership appointments with the explicit support of the government (ref: Outlook story on the subject).

"I may be wrong, but I do think the problem has been overblown."

I too believe you are wrong. You are taking an attitude of us vs them (army) which is not right. It is all 'us'.

Kel,

Apparently, without reading you have judged Lt. Gen Nayar's letter as a 'Load of crap' and compared Gen V. K .Singh's case with your case.  Did you read that until 2006 Gen. V. K. Singh's age was correctly listed and then it was made incorrect?

Also Lt. Gen. Nayar asks MMS that, "You will be asked..."; Who is going to ask Mr. Nayar?  Asked by our embedded, pro-government, pro-congress, secular-in-name-only, but in reality anti India media?

Mr Kel

Your bureaucrat uncle lied and that (incorrect) DoB of yours continues as your real DoB since it is the one mentioned on your school leaving or matriculation certificate. Let us assume, for arguments sake that the General's father lied - so why not take the DoB mentioned on General’s certificate as the correct DoB as has been done in your case. (By the way the General has a Part II order issued by his father’s regiment notifying his birth- which is highly unlikely to be incorrect). The General had not asked for anything else. This is the least you can concur with. The other facts of the case may not interest you since you have already made up your mind. Bonita and others have commented elaborately on the subject in this as well as earlier threads. May be you should read them again.

What Mr V.K singh has done was the right thing to do. To accept injustice would have been criminal and it is important to expose babus and chaprasis so called ministers.

To expect anything sensible from govt. is living in fools parasise. It is the most corrupt, incompetent and insensitive government we ever had. PM is ardali of Indian Imelda Marcos. It is futile to write anything to him. Government run by a foreigner can not be emotionally attached to country nor it can address the concerns of people. Congis are nothing but taritors who are using a forengner to get their share of loot. This goverment is so shameless that even on passing away of our hero Gen Manek shaw no misnister or even defence secretary turned up on his funeral. How insensitive one can get. Ardalis of Sonia Gandhi followed her orders. We as a people are so stupid or system of election so inefiicient that these clowns keep on getting elected again and again. Only God can save our country.

In the end Mr Nayar has written ; " if all the lions were to get up and go, the wind will say, I told you so!". If my memory serves right it is a poem by W.H Auden and instead of wind he has mentioned time. I will google it to confirm

@@Lt General V.K. Nayar (retd)
 

You are blurting load of "Crap", please excuse my "French".

My own case is similar to that of the "Chief".  When I was 6 years old, my parents being illiterate, asked my uncle to enroll me to the Primary School.  My DOB was April as per my horoscope.  My uncle, who was a bureaucrat enrolled me  with the DOB of December.

So for all intents and purposed, I was born 6 months later.  When I grew up, I asked my uncle:"Why did you do this?".  The answer was to get more "Pensionable Service."

So for all intents and purpose my DOB is December; and it was a mistake made deliberately, since there were no birth certificates then, and the Matriculation Certificate was taken as the DOB.

People like you, who defend these cases have taken leave of their senses.

>>Bureaucracy is just the instrument that the civilian/political establishment uses to run an agency or a department.

And when it is convenient, the political establishment starts working at arm's length from the bureaucracy! The hypocrisy of the apologists of this pathetic government is astounding.

Bonita,

>>  Civilian control means political NOT bureaucratic control.

Bureaucracy is just the instrument that the civilian/political establishment uses to run an agency or a department.

Anwaar,

to make a distinction between bureaucrats and civilian/political authority is, in my mind, not too helpful.

That's exactly the problem. Civilian control means political NOT bureaucratic control. But there's no point arguing this any more.

India discovers the Theory of Great Leapfrog in Time Zone :

General V K Singh had borne before his mother even conceived him !

This is the latest modification of the Einstein's Theory of Time and Space Travel !
 

Kalra,

>> Gen VK Singh believes he has been wronged. He is fighting to get it corrected.

He should have fought it within the department, and if he could not prevail, he should have swallowed his pride and ceded. An open fight between the top officer of the army and the civilian government is not only unbecoming but a bad example for other officers and soldiers. Realistically speaking, how big is the issue? Can the problem be generalized to the whole service? I may be wrong, but I do think the problem has been overblown.

Lt Gen 'Tubby' Nayar,

Nice write up but sent to the wrong address.

Anwaar,

"The 'Age controversy' is being blown out of proportion."

Why?

Gen VK Singh believes he has been wronged. He is fighting to get it corrected. Why is this being 'blown out of proportion'?

When the media was rallying around the government and publishing plants to run down a serving COAS I do not recall you having objections to the 'govt-babu-media' nexus. When senior officers try and put their side of the story in public you see 'disaffection of the army officers' and 'their rallying around the age issue'.

You do not see that this governement is trying to set every institution to 'fire' (CVC, CBI, Army and now CEC) but there is some 'smoldering issue' when two officers write in favor of a third.

'The bureaucrat speaking for the civilan authority' is for good times and a strong government. Rats are deserting this sinking ship and fast. It's every man for himself.

Appealing to St Antony or St MMS is futile. They would have taken some action long back if they wanted to take.

>>The bureaucrat speaks for the civilian authority. He does not have any authority of his own. The disaffection of the army officers against the bureaucrats and their rallying around the age issue may be indicative of some smoldering issue, but to make a distinction between bureaucrats and civilian/political authority is, in my mind, not too helpful.

Except PMO does not speak for the PM, the police do not act as per the directives of the HM. So bloody convenient!! The functioning of this government has become a joke!

Bonita,

The bureaucrat speaks for the civilian authority. He does not have any authority of his own. The disaffection of the army officers against the bureaucrats and their rallying around the age issue may be indicative of some smoldering issue, but to make a distinction between bureaucrats and civilian/political authority is, in my mind, not too helpful.

Anwaar,

The 'Age controversy' is being blown out of proportion. The rallying of the army brass in favour of Gen. V.K.Singh and against the government is unhealthy.

For the last time, please do not confuse the civilian control of the army with bureaucratic control. The problem is that the political leadership has no inclination to get itself involved in matters that don't involve funds. Therefore, they leave it to their bureaucrats and look stupid.

I think I raised this issue earlier, but let me do so again. When the Railways Ministry is staffed with professional Railways officers, why is the Min of Defence run by IAS officers whose only interest is turf protection.

If you want to get some idea of why uniformed personnel are p****d off at bureaucrats read this http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/ or this www.tribuneindia.com/2012/20120221/nation.htm#7

Retired officers air their views because uniformed officers are supposed to keep quiet and eat s**t. This is what the media wants. Let one officer state an honest opinion which may not be "politically correct" and wait for the howls. And mind you, this is not even when he is challenging poicy.

If it is symptomatic of some underlying malaise, it is the duty of the defence Minister to explore and resolve this issue.

Now try explaining that to Saint Anthony.

The 'Age controversy' is being blown out of proportion. The rallying of the army brass in favour of Gen. V.K.Singh and against the government is unhealthy. If it is symptomatic of some underlying malaise, it is the duty of the Defense Minister to explore and resolve it.

Manmohan Singh has gone from "Singh is King" to a "loyal servant of the family" in quick time. should have resigned long time ago instead of complying and compromising. has lost his stature.

Manmohan Singh has gone from "Singh is King" to a "loyal servant of the family" in quick time. should have resigned long time ago instead of complying and compromising. has lost his stature.

The 'Age controversy' is being blown out of proportion. The rallying of the army brass in favour of Gen. V.K.Singh and against the government is unhealthy. If it is symptomatic of some underlying malaise, it is the duty of the Defense Minister to explore and resolve it.

Anwaar,

The 'Age controversy' is being blown out of proportion. The rallying of the army brass in favour of Gen. V.K.Singh and against the government is unhealthy.

For the last time, please do not confuse the civilian control of the army with bureaucratic control. The problem is that the political leadership has no inclination to get itself involved in matters that don't involve funds. Therefore, they leave it to their bureaucrats and look stupid.

I think I raised this issue earlier, but let me do so again. When the Railways Ministry is staffed with professional Railways officers, why is the Min of Defence run by IAS officers whose only interest is turf protection.

If you want to get some idea of why uniformed personnel are p****d off at bureaucrats read this http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/ or this www.tribuneindia.com/2012/20120221/nation.htm#7

Retired officers air their views because uniformed officers are supposed to keep quiet and eat s**t. This is what the media wants. Let one officer state an honest opinion which may not be "politically correct" and wait for the howls. And mind you, this is not even when he is challenging poicy.

If it is symptomatic of some underlying malaise, it is the duty of the defence Minister to explore and resolve this issue.

Now try explaining that to Saint Anthony.

Bonita,

The bureaucrat speaks for the civilian authority. He does not have any authority of his own. The disaffection of the army officers against the bureaucrats and their rallying around the age issue may be indicative of some smoldering issue, but to make a distinction between bureaucrats and civilian/political authority is, in my mind, not too helpful.

>>The bureaucrat speaks for the civilian authority. He does not have any authority of his own. The disaffection of the army officers against the bureaucrats and their rallying around the age issue may be indicative of some smoldering issue, but to make a distinction between bureaucrats and civilian/political authority is, in my mind, not too helpful.

Except PMO does not speak for the PM, the police do not act as per the directives of the HM. So bloody convenient!! The functioning of this government has become a joke!

Lt Gen 'Tubby' Nayar,

Nice write up but sent to the wrong address.

Anwaar,

"The 'Age controversy' is being blown out of proportion."

Why?

Gen VK Singh believes he has been wronged. He is fighting to get it corrected. Why is this being 'blown out of proportion'?

When the media was rallying around the government and publishing plants to run down a serving COAS I do not recall you having objections to the 'govt-babu-media' nexus. When senior officers try and put their side of the story in public you see 'disaffection of the army officers' and 'their rallying around the age issue'.

You do not see that this governement is trying to set every institution to 'fire' (CVC, CBI, Army and now CEC) but there is some 'smoldering issue' when two officers write in favor of a third.

'The bureaucrat speaking for the civilan authority' is for good times and a strong government. Rats are deserting this sinking ship and fast. It's every man for himself.

Appealing to St Antony or St MMS is futile. They would have taken some action long back if they wanted to take.

Kalra,

>> Gen VK Singh believes he has been wronged. He is fighting to get it corrected.

He should have fought it within the department, and if he could not prevail, he should have swallowed his pride and ceded. An open fight between the top officer of the army and the civilian government is not only unbecoming but a bad example for other officers and soldiers. Realistically speaking, how big is the issue? Can the problem be generalized to the whole service? I may be wrong, but I do think the problem has been overblown.

India discovers the Theory of Great Leapfrog in Time Zone :

General V K Singh had borne before his mother even conceived him !

This is the latest modification of the Einstein's Theory of Time and Space Travel !
 

Anwaar,

to make a distinction between bureaucrats and civilian/political authority is, in my mind, not too helpful.

That's exactly the problem. Civilian control means political NOT bureaucratic control. But there's no point arguing this any more.

Bonita,

>>  Civilian control means political NOT bureaucratic control.

Bureaucracy is just the instrument that the civilian/political establishment uses to run an agency or a department.

>>Bureaucracy is just the instrument that the civilian/political establishment uses to run an agency or a department.

And when it is convenient, the political establishment starts working at arm's length from the bureaucracy! The hypocrisy of the apologists of this pathetic government is astounding.

@@Lt General V.K. Nayar (retd)
 

You are blurting load of "Crap", please excuse my "French".

My own case is similar to that of the "Chief".  When I was 6 years old, my parents being illiterate, asked my uncle to enroll me to the Primary School.  My DOB was April as per my horoscope.  My uncle, who was a bureaucrat enrolled me  with the DOB of December.

So for all intents and purposed, I was born 6 months later.  When I grew up, I asked my uncle:"Why did you do this?".  The answer was to get more "Pensionable Service."

So for all intents and purpose my DOB is December; and it was a mistake made deliberately, since there were no birth certificates then, and the Matriculation Certificate was taken as the DOB.

People like you, who defend these cases have taken leave of their senses.

What Mr V.K singh has done was the right thing to do. To accept injustice would have been criminal and it is important to expose babus and chaprasis so called ministers.

To expect anything sensible from govt. is living in fools parasise. It is the most corrupt, incompetent and insensitive government we ever had. PM is ardali of Indian Imelda Marcos. It is futile to write anything to him. Government run by a foreigner can not be emotionally attached to country nor it can address the concerns of people. Congis are nothing but taritors who are using a forengner to get their share of loot. This goverment is so shameless that even on passing away of our hero Gen Manek shaw no misnister or even defence secretary turned up on his funeral. How insensitive one can get. Ardalis of Sonia Gandhi followed her orders. We as a people are so stupid or system of election so inefiicient that these clowns keep on getting elected again and again. Only God can save our country.

In the end Mr Nayar has written ; " if all the lions were to get up and go, the wind will say, I told you so!". If my memory serves right it is a poem by W.H Auden and instead of wind he has mentioned time. I will google it to confirm

Mr Kel

Your bureaucrat uncle lied and that (incorrect) DoB of yours continues as your real DoB since it is the one mentioned on your school leaving or matriculation certificate. Let us assume, for arguments sake that the General's father lied - so why not take the DoB mentioned on General’s certificate as the correct DoB as has been done in your case. (By the way the General has a Part II order issued by his father’s regiment notifying his birth- which is highly unlikely to be incorrect). The General had not asked for anything else. This is the least you can concur with. The other facts of the case may not interest you since you have already made up your mind. Bonita and others have commented elaborately on the subject in this as well as earlier threads. May be you should read them again.

Kel,

Apparently, without reading you have judged Lt. Gen Nayar's letter as a 'Load of crap' and compared Gen V. K .Singh's case with your case.  Did you read that until 2006 Gen. V. K. Singh's age was correctly listed and then it was made incorrect?

Also Lt. Gen. Nayar asks MMS that, "You will be asked..."; Who is going to ask Mr. Nayar?  Asked by our embedded, pro-government, pro-congress, secular-in-name-only, but in reality anti India media?

@ Anwaar

"He should have fought it within the department,"

He did. He exhausted all options before approaching MoD and then SC.

"and if he could not prevail,"

Which he did not....

"he should have swallowed his pride and ceded."

Who are we to decide. Why don't you offer this gratuitous advise to the MoD that it should have swallowed its pride and accepted the 1951 DoB. Why should all the bending and twisting be reserved for the army. It is Gen V K Singh and not Ramdev. Can't bend beyond a point.

"An open fight between the top officer of the army and the civilian government is not only unbecoming but a bad example for other officers and soldiers."

Really? I don't agree. Maj Gen Arora (Ref: Outlook article on this case), whose promotions were delayed so that the favorite horse did not face competition in the line of succession, did not go to courts. What example has he set for the force? Who remembers his so called 'sacrifice' today. A mention in a few articles and a retired life to mull over what could have been.

Please understand these soldiers and officers are like any other central government employees. They have careers, aspirations and respect attached with ranks. Government employees going to court is nothing new. Somehow you expect a different code from the forces - lay down your lives without a murmur but don't be seen fighting for basic rights.

"Realistically speaking, how big is the issue? Can the problem be generalized to the whole service?"

For the person concerned it is big. He is the one fighting. He is the one who has to face consequences.

Yes it can be generalized. The administrators have rode roughshod over the forces for a long time. Procurement, one rank-one pay and many more issues are caused by administrative apathy. However, when it comes to calling the COAS a liar and orchestrating a media campaign against him it crosses limits of tolerance.

What is also not good is meddling in promotions and top leadership of the army. The last time it was done was in early 60's with Gen Thapar and Lt Gen Kaul being very close to Nehru. We all know what happened in the war in 1962. Both gentlemen resigned in disgrace after the defeat.

This time too the subtext is manipulating leadership appointments with the explicit support of the government (ref: Outlook story on the subject).

"I may be wrong, but I do think the problem has been overblown."

I too believe you are wrong. You are taking an attitude of us vs them (army) which is not right. It is all 'us'.

   " Things fall apart;                                                                                                               the centre cannot hold.                                                                                                     Mere anarchy is loosed                                                                                                     Upon the world.         W.B. Yeats ( The Second Coming )

Just replace World by India and the state of present-day india is summed up.                    Dr. Manmohan Singh has been known to come from a humble ground, A hard working and  honest person with tons of humility. Like Rajiv Gandhi and his nemesis VP Singh he has disappointed us, rather failed us in his second innings. Gen Nayar is absolutely right.

Kalra,

If the problem is systemic, as you suggest, then the Chief going to the court for his age question is hardly the solution. In fact it hardly behooves a man who has been given the highest rank in the army to take the government to court for his personal grievance which would seem to be petty to most people. I continue to be aware that I may be wrong, but nobody has given a convincing explanation of why I am wrong.

It is indeed heartening to see that Gen Nair, Katoch, Shakar Roy Choudhary, Vijay Oberoi, Harwant Singh, GD Bakshi, Ajay Shukla and Maroof Raja (all veterans who carry excellent `spoken reputation' in the Army) are speaking up for General VK Singh. There can not be any better endorsement of his righteous stand.

Anwaar,

I accept and respect your contrary position. We can always agree to disagree.

Take care.

Kalra,

>> "accept and respect your contrary position. We can always agree to disagree."

You are a gentleman.