if Baba's simple tricks (of plucking ash, chains, lingas) were not exposed by the media, and that his popularity in this regard had continued unabated, then I'm sure he would have mastered the art of plucking out pumpkins too.. ;)

Addition to Comment 57:

"Hope yani Asha..if you know how to sell it, you are already a ISO 9001 religious company! "

Agree , its a  money spinning business and Tax Free! A more likely haven for parking easy money with no holds barred!
 

"Hope yani Asha..if you know how to sell it, you are already a ISO 9001 religious company! "

Agree , its a  money spinning business!

Hope yani Asha..if you know how to sell it, you are already a ISO 9001 religious company! India is number one in this branch of business. Where political and bureaucratic corruption is at its peak, where hundreds of millions of people have not got basic amenities of life, Hope is really a soothing and rare product. A sugar daddy or Amma who takes the mob of people under her spell and shower hope as one sprinkles water on the grass, i think it can bring tears of gratitude in the hearts of people who are on the bottom of the pyramid.

Truth is a bitter medicine..Someone like J Krishnamurti, UG or Osho could deleiver this with, but who wants that!
 

DC, NEW YORK, United States

Your have argued (very well) on the basis of one single stand alone comment taken by you in isolation. Please read  Comment 47 whose "rational" comment ends with  the following "gentle" quip:

"......So be happy and do NOT JUDGE unless Sathy Sai has sodmoized you personally or played tricks on you and looted you :)...."

It is hard to believe that this man did all the magic tricks, all the while proclaiming him self as some incarnation of God, just so that he could do all the good things that he did in the later part of his so called avatara. It is just too unbelievable. It is also so very amazingly contradictory for a person who preached simplicity, but always seen with pomp, in genuine silver and golden settings.

In Irrationality there is no room for sanity!

R V Subramanian
Gurgaon, India
 

This is not a fair statement. Irrationality involves all our feelings, beliefs  and creative thinking coming from the right side of our brain, while logical thinking and rationality is a product of our brain's left side. Knowingly and unknowingly we  use both aspects of our mind ( that are mutually exclusive) and our final response is a complex process involving both. You cannot rationalize the beliefs or feelings just as you cannot use your feelings to explain your logical thinking. 

Still the rationalists would love to use reasoning to explain irrationality . That's why complex mathematics tries hard to model the irrationalities of the stock market investors and fails. That's why overly analytical mind fails to appreciate creativities involved in poetry and arts. A rational mind also fails to appreciate that often its own logical thinking follows from a certain belief that itself is not rational. For example, those of us who believe in free market fundamentals automatically accept the logical reasoning that the modern economic theories offer. But if we believe in a different ideology that considers that  production or services are not owned by entrepreneurs and shareholders but by the workers and labourers then we will be framing a different logical reasoning that Marxists build. One can call the other insane . But both are using rationality, it is their beliefs that are different.

Religious beliefs and political beliefs are also in the realm of irrationality. Why else do the neo-liberals argue with the nationalists? Why do the secular and atheists use a logic totally different from the logic used by the deeply religious? It's all because of the differences in their beliefs. That doesn't mean the one is more sane than the other.

Having said that, I conclude that those who believe in Sai Baba will continue to believe in the miracles even if these are proven to be trickery by a great magician. They will fail to open their mind for a more scientific inquiry of seemingly unnatural phenomenon  because it then questions their own beliefs. Instead they will use a different line of logic to attack the critics because they are actually questioning their beliefs. The same people after watching a magician's performance however will readily accept that those were all tricks, even if they do not have the possible explanation. That is easy for them because it is not questioning their religious beliefs.

Satya Sai baba did not teach his diciples to go bomb schools , instead he used their offerings to build schools. He did not teach them to spread terror , he asked them to provide relief to society. He built hospitals; he brought drinking water to about 300 villages among a lot of other very physical and material  things. They are no illusion. His message is a belief in positive karma and respect for all.  How does it matter if he got peoples attention by performing magical tricks? Important thing is to evaluate baba for his role in bringing positive energy and thoughts . For creating institutions like hospitals & schools that will bring lasting value.  You do not have to believe in him, just belive in his contribution . Even my maths teacher got our  attention by telling a fantastic joke right at the begining of his calculas class. That did not make him a Joker. He was a great teacher. What we got out of that class is another matter.

There are lots of philanthropic workers in India or for that matter in the whole world and there are lots of great magicians too but none of those become godman. It is the religion which combines these two activities and projects the religious preacher as godman. There is no rationalistic argument possible in religious doctrines. If you argue the doctrine you are an arrogant common man and if you don’t then you are either a follower of or the Satya Sai Baba himself.

The whole problem is not allowing scientists and skeptics to probe into the truth. Mystery can never become truth and just by having a large number of followers and a small number of opponents again does not turn mystery into truth. It is just the belief of so many individuals that makes you feel that it is the truth.Every human has the right to question and enquire and truth should be made known. If you have a belief in BABA which you expressed, let others who do not believe or believe in the truth also express themself

Comment 48 amended:

Gresham Law that "Bad Money drives away Good Money"  seems to apply  to "views" as well! In Irrationality there is no room for sanity!

Gresham Law that "Bad Money drives away Good Money" applies here. In Irrationality there is no room for sanity!

I am just awestruck at the number of people here that are trying to JUDGE the credentials of Sathya Sai !! I am no follower of Sathya Sai yet I believe that a con man cannot con people for 70 years up untill till age 86 and that too sooo many followers, poor, millionaires, indian, white, black, chinese and japanese etc.....

Has Sai done any wrong to you personally? How are you guys so sure that his miracles are just tricks?

If you read the Bible you will read a gospel where Jesus walks through a crowd who were trying to touch him to get healed or be blessed... Jesus suddenly turns back and exclaims "who just touched me, I felt energy seeping out of me !"... an old leper woman sitting on the ground shouted it was me and I got cured instantly, Jesus picked her and said YOUR FAITH was the enabler of this miracle...Note: Many others in the crowd werent healed...DOES THAT MAKE JESUS A FAKE SON OF GOD????

John and other deciples of jesus were going back after a day of techings and riding in a boat, Jesus told to join them later. Sometime later these deciples saw Jesus approacing them walking on the water...they couldnt believe and were scared...Jesus asked John to have faith , hold his hand and step out of the boat to walk on water ...John was sceptical and started drowning... Jesus replied "If only you had the faith equal to one mustard seed you could command the mountain to... " 

I was in South Africa, where Indians dont even know hindi etc... One of my Indian orgin South African colleague started telling me about her relative in the neighbourhod in Pietermaritzburg that underwent a bizzare incident of having ash rains in their house for a month continuously... they were puzzled and called for municipal authorities to check the ceiling etc...but to no avail, the ash rains continued....that family didnt know who Sathya Sai was till then untill the face of Sathya Sai appeared on the ash filled floor.... They became aredent devotees of Sathy Sai since then....

As Jesus "THE SON OF GOD" could not touch the lives of many billions...so may be Sathya Sai could not touch the lives of people like me and you...maybe its not our Karma to be blessed by the guidance of a Saint as he blessed Sachin Tendulkar (who carries the photo of sai in his pocket always)..

So be happy and do NOT JUDGE unless Sathy Sai has sodmoized you personally or played tricks on you and looted you :)....

Comment 44 : Ganesan

I agree Guru has a special place in the ancient Guru:Shishya equation. While Guru was held in highest esteem and respect , the Guru, then, never led a lifeof opulence and did not ever run a plush trust of the kind we see now. The Gurus of yore, while not calling themselves God/Godman, led a spartan life and imparted their wisdom/learning to the disciples.

The present day Gurus are  "Monks who Ride the Ferraris"!

>> Did the baba ever advise his corrupt disciples to give up their evil ways?<<

JALEEL,  Did the POPE whose heart bleeds for the poor intervene when the JEWS were being exterminated by HITLER?? Had HITLER, a practising Christian, been excommunicated by POPE, many lives could have been saved. Has the present POPE declared the "SWISS Christian BANKERS" accepting LOOTED FUNDS from countries which have starving millions like India as unethical when BIBLE explicitely prohibits it?? On which GODS direction is the Muslims blasting SUFI DARGAS and killing each others accusing each other of being non-ISLAMIC while insisting that Islam is the ultimate religion of peace?? 

GOD is within each of us. What ever is attributed to GOD is the result of "natural forces" or human activity. If BABA has provided "happiness" to his his followers- the means is of absolutely no importance- the rest shouldn't have any problem because BABA did not insist that "his way is the only way and curse all others to hell fire for not following him".   

 "Faith in God cannot be equated with faith in a godman/Charlatan."

Faith in God can be equated with faith in a godman. That is the whole idea behind the Guru-sishya relationship. The disciple is supposed to see God thro' his Guru.

Whether the particular godman in question is a charlatan or not need to be decided on an individual basis.

RAMKI:

While I can understand illiterates or semiliterates falling  prey to such Tricksters, I fail to understand why the educated , who unite themselves for a cause like "Anti Corruption",  can fall at the feet of such godmen who are more likely to be aflush  with unaccounted funds from corrupt sources!

Faith in God cannot be equated with faith in a godman/Charlatan.

Ramki, from the way you argue logically, with reasons of your own, I suspect you have doubts which are probably troubling you.

RAMKI:

While I can understand illiterates or semiliterates falling  prey to such Tricksters, I fail to understand why the educated , who unite themselves for a cause like "Anti Corruption",  can fall at the feet of such godmen who are more likely to be aflush  with unaccounted funds from corrupt sources!

Faith in God cannot be equated with faith in a godman/Charlatan.

Ramki, from the way you argue logically, with reasons of your own, I suspect you have doubts which are probably troubling you.

RAMKI:

While I can understand illiterates or semiliterates falling  prey to such Tricksters, I fail to understand why the educated , who unite themselves for a cause like "Anti Corruption",  can fall at the feet of such godmen who are more likely to be aflush  with unaccounted funds from corrupt sources!

Faith in God cannot be equated with faith in a godman/Charlatan.

Ramki, from the way you argue logically, with reasons of your own, I suspect you have doubts which are probably troubling you.
 

Jaleel >> Setting up posh Ashrams and places of worships that worth thousands of crores of rupees is not necessarily the work that will be liked by God,.... but doing something good for the lakhs of starving angels on the streets will definitely contribute to making the world a better place and that will be a real service to God also.

Certainly Sai Baba and quite some other religious leaders have done a lot for the well being of the neglected sections of the society. Despite the bad elements, far more good has been done by god believers and god men than the so called rationalist marxists and their extremist followers. It will help if you seek to investigate what is done by him with an objective mindset and you would be presently surprised. And it is for this good deeds that one should appreciate SaiBaba - and not for his miracles (which may be true, maynot be true, but really have no relevance to the debate here).

R V Subramanian >> With such "faithfuls" there is no room for reasoning. We will be continued to be blessed with new Gods and Godmen for the Blind Men of Bharat!

What is your problem if people refuse to be reasoned and seek the help of Godmen and have faith in God? People are entitled to believe in what they feel is in their best interest and certainly dont need the help of rationalist moral brigade in suggesting them on something. And if you feel that Bharat is blinded by belief, why is that the few nations in the world which were/are non religious /atheist, such as erstwhile Albania and present day NOrth Korea are not faring any better?

R V Subramanian >> Technology  has dented the ability of bulk of our educated youngsters to be rational. Without a question they tend to follow Godmen and Tricksters who promise Eldorado, spiritual or otherwise.

Technology has not freed humankind from depending on resources (fossil fuels, minerals etc) gifted by nature to pursue our well being. Given this, We irrationals are still waiting for LHC Project to show us that there is no god. Please have some patience till then.

Jaleel >> Baba had many many powerful politicians, bureaucrats as his unflinching devotees. Interestinglly, their devotion to baba and their corrupt ways of looting and plundering the nation continue together. Did the baba ever advise his corrupt disciples to give up their evil ways?

Jaleel >> There was no revealations either and hence I consider Buddha to be the greatest prophet.

Going by your own logic, why is that the followers of Buddha have not imbibed his philosophy of non violence? Some of the most violent wars in recent times have been due to acts of people who follow buddhism - be it Japanese during WW2 or Sri Lanka (which waged war on its ethnic minority Tamils).

Merely because a person speaks rationalist ideology and refuses to believe in god does not make him or her a paragon of goodness.

Merely because a person believes in the occult and paranormal and belives in faith does not make him or her a paragon of vice  and evil.

The world is peopled with black and white characters as the rationalists love to potray. We are all different shades of grey - some darker, some lighter. Sai Baba is one such shade of grey.

SHRI >> Seems to me that Ramki is a follower of Sai baba and is responding from his hurt ego. What Sugata mentions in thisarticle is merely a description of the interaction between two public personalities.

I am neither a follower of Sai Baba nor someone who is interested in his miracles and/or the miracles of similar faith leaders. I am only trying to combat the sense of false superiority that the so called rationalist-atheist brigade try to propagate in MSM(MainStream Media).And when someone rejects the sense of false superiority, some egos get hurt !

And as someone who has been reading the writer (SrinivasaRaju) for quite some time, it is obvious as to what he is trying toconvey through the so called interaction. And look at the way not even a single person has contradicted POST NUMBER 4. Hmm....

And as for hurt egos we have always a set of people who pretend to have egos even when they were crushed by the so calledcollapse of world's only scientifically planned and constructed nation/society called Soviet Union. People on so called scientific temper/rationalist brigade side are good at kiss and makeup and they have no real reason to expose their hurt egos.

Ajit Hedge >> Hardly anyone is even allowed or quoted in media who don't indulge in this embarrassing spectacle of Baba worship.

When was the last time we saw in MSM (MainStream Media), any article that is critical of Sonia Gandhi and her family? The MSM which went hammer and tongs about the 2G Scam or the ISRO-Devas Deal and MMS culpability is so silent on the role of the 2Gs
in the scam. Why ? Or why is MSM so silent about Mukesh Ambani? Outlook which went the whole hog in its other publication (Outlook Business) about the ills and the ills of Anil Ambani is strangely silent on his elder brother. Selective Amnesia ? Hmm...

"It goes without saying that a gullible and depraved people like us deserve our Sai Babas, A Rajas and Kalmadis."

Absolutely!!

## Today we find many children with bad character and bad behavior. The reason for this can be attributed to the bad thoughts of their mothers ##

Typical Male (Unblocked) ranting !! :D

What about good character and good behaviour ?

Comment 35 by Male Unblocked:

Cant make out anything out of your "Leaky" comment in quotes!

 "Today we find many children with bad character and bad behavior. The reason for this can be attributed to the bad thoughts of their mothers." (19th Nov. 2000)

 # 29 and # 30

Very informative! 

It goes without saying that a gullible and depraved people like us deserve our Sai Babas, A Rajas and Kalmadis.

"Where from so much ash was coming? I would like to know, if there is any special "trick" for this."

If you REALLY would like to know the special "trick", you have to open your mind to doubt. Termed as a “bad” virtue, doubt, I think is the true beginning of budhdhi. All inventions and discoveries are a result of doubt. Any baba who says, “don’t try to understand me, just fellow me” is a fraud! Satya Sai baba did say this.

As for the ash coming out in the video, I am no magician but I can assure you that chemistry can answer this. I am also sure there are thousand of magicians who can replicate it. BTW, I did see a TV program a couple of years back where a rationalist showed using some chemical in his palm which produced loads and loads of ash. He didn’t name Satya Sai baba but he did say all such things can be easily replicated.

Even Jesus was a Miracle Worker, He was CRUCIFIED for it...

Strangely most men started believing in him only after his Death...ha ha

I tell you all one thing... Even if Ram/Krishna/Muhammad/Jesus happen to come to you you and command you to walk on water with confidence you would still be sceptical (as john the baptist was to Jesus)...cause Faith can see the truth while rationality has a limitation...

Having said that I have never been a follower of Sathya Sai Babaji... But I am gracious enough to understand that there can be great men like Jesus who were not understood in their times and so may be Sathya Sai of Puttaparthi....Sai has more followers than any living human being today and that surely makes him a Prophet of 2011 :)..

Give respect to a soul that has departed, do not overrationalize your peanut brains....

May Sai ji continue to bless us all...

Kolkata, April 24 (IANS) Legendary magician P.C. Sorcar Jr, who had replicated the 'miracles' of Sathya Sai Baba during a meeting with him 35 years ago, Sunday mourned the death of the spiritual leader saying he had deep respect for his development work.
'I have always said that I have deep respect for the Sai Baba phenomenon minus the tricks. He has done lot of development work. In areas which do not have water he has laid water pipelines. He founded hospitals and schools. These things are praise worthy,' added the magician.
Sorcar had always claimed that Sai Baba was no godman but just a man of tricks like him. The meeting in '1975-76' between P.C. Sorcar Junior and Sai Baba was a well publicised one. After Sai Baba had given him 'darshan', Sorcar asked for a gift. Baba duly produced a sandesh 'out of thin air'. Sorcar said he didn't like sandesh, and turned it magically to a rossogolla instead.
'He used to give vibhuti (holy ash) to all, but it would not be proper to bury all his good work under the ashes by highlighting only his other side. Whatever magical powers he showed, I can do all that without claiming myself to be a god,' said Sorcar.
 

Sai Baba was well known for the so-called miracle power and there were controversies surrounding him for many years. I remember years ago of a controversy when his trickery was exposed on TV camera. The famous magician P C Sorcar Junior on his encounter with Sai Baba also exposed his trickery. When Baba greeted Sorcar taking out a sweet from thin air, Sorcar also waved his hands and handed him back a different sweet. "You are a magician, so also am I, " he said.

These tricks will not take away the credit Baba deserved for all the philanthropic work he carried out all these years. And I don't remember reading much about his miracles in recent years.

The rationalists in every religion question the human claims of miracle power. And the credulous and the superstitious still continue to believe in miracles.

I don't believe in miracle, period. Having said that, some of modern day Gods Man do need to perform some magical act to get attention and retain his followers, specially "lato ke bhoot jo bato se nahi manate" .
My understanding from reading of Baba's work is quite impressive, he did spent lots of money on hospitals, sanitation work, schools, etc. So I guess he could be forgiven for performing deception, it is all for a good cause.

 "I sincerely hope the Puttaparthi Baba will not betray his own foretelling and will be around till he turns 96."

That this prediction did not turn out to be true does dent the claim of Baba being all knowing. 

 " He arrogantly claimed that there was no force on earth that could examine him."

If true, this goes against the entire principle of Guru-sishya of India. A Guru must examine the disciple thoroughly before accepting him and the student must thoroughly examine the Guru before accepting him as the Guru. Ramakrishna Paramahamsa encouraged everyone to examine him critically just as a money lender examines the money given to him. 

And personally, while I admire the social work done by Baba, I am turned off by the miracles-which have nothing to do with spirituality. I do not think the miracles are hoax. A person performing sadhanas develops the "eight siddhis" and other powers as result of those sadhanas.

These siddhis are nevertheless diversions and not real spirituality. The constant refrain in hindu scriptures is to avoid falling into the trap of these miraculous powers.

>>>>Is he not conttradicting himself

That should read 'was he not contradicting himself?' HN is no longer with us

If the intention Hucchu Narasimhaiah was to encourcage people to have rational thinking, why refer to those like Buddha who supposedly  performed Miracles? Is he not conttradicting himself

Narasimhaiah reproduces all the three letters in his book Tereda Mana (An Open Mind) published by Christ College Kannada Sangha in 1992.

Sugatha lacks either a sense of irony or enquiry.  Isn't it amusing this association of skeptics from Christ College (must be skeptics, why else would they publish Narasimiah?) are charged up about exposing the "miracles" of Satya Sai Baba, but have shown no interest in studying the miracles the creed of their college is built upon.  As Sam Harris put it in a debate with the notorious apologist William Lane Craig, a few weeks back, "For those of you who make much of the miracles of Jesus, have you heard of Satya Sai Baba in India?  If Satya Sai Baba's miracles haven't merited more than a n hour on Deiscovery Channel, why are we wasting time on the [supposed' miracles of Jesus?"

The miracles are an insignificant part of Satya Sai Baba's life.  What is significant are the public works - sanitation projects, housing, hospitals and schools.  Unlike Outlook's favourite charlatan Teresa (the ghoul of Kolkata) Satya Sai Baba did not preach that suffering is a gift from god or that poverty is lovely.  He set about changing the world, and nviting people to join him without leaving their faith.  The outpouring of grief from all sections of society, cutting across every division is truly wonderful.  When a known Hinduphobe like Karunanidhi and a scholar of the stature of Dr. HM Ansari our Vice President have the same thing to say about Satya Sai Baba, you know that this was  remarkable man indeed.  My advice to skeptics and rationalists, Hinduism is low hanging fruit, because Hindus are great skeptics.  If you have a problem, go after the clones of Oral Roberts, Billy Graham and Ravi Zachariah in India - the Dinakarans and the rest, who fool the public with stories of some sky fairy and promising miracle cures, all the while relieving a gullible public of their money.

"Baba stopped doing such tricks for 2 reasons: (a) he had already established himself, and (b) he was afraid of video cameras tracking his moves....

Kiran Bagachi
mumbai, India"
 

You can type "Sai baba vibhuti abhishekam" in youtube.com and see the video. Where from so much ash was coming ?. I would like to know, if there is any special "trick" for this.

Being the richest businessman, the best player, the most corrupt politician, a dreaded gangster or posessing the latest and most expensive gifts from technology or having the most successful academic records doesn't gurantee anyone to be less superstitious.

Living a life of luxury is bad when so many half naked children are starving on the footpaths. So, the babas and their devotees should show us the way by leading austere lives.

Setting up posh Ashrams and places of worships that worth thousands of crores of rupees is not necessarily the work that will be liked by God,.... but doing something good for the lakhs of starving angels on the streets will definitely contribute to making the world a better place and that will be a real service to God also.

In view of the likelihood of Black Money flowing into hitherto untaxed entities in India, I strongly feel, the Committee on "Jan Lokpal" Bill should include to bring the funds and assets, including their source, of such entities under the purview of Income Tax and the Lokpal.

In view of the likelihood of Black Money flowing into hitherto untaxed entities in India, I strongly feel, the Committee on "Jan Lokpal" Bill should include to bring the funds and assets, including their source, of such entities under the purview of Income Tax and the Lokpal.

.....We should leave it to the believers,for their faith in Sai Baba or Infant Jesus.Afterall,they go to these powers for redressal of their difficulties...... S S Nagaraj

With such "faithfuls" there is no room for reasoning. We will be  continued to be blessed with new Gods and Godmen for the Blind Men of Bharat!

>> Will this writer have the guts to ridicule the miracles performed by evangelists ....

I believe there were no miracles, belief in miracles is nothing but superstition. There was no revealations either and hence I consider Buddha to be the greatest prophet.

Will this writer have the guts to ridicule the miracles performed by the evangelists,when the blind starts seeing,lame start walking and the mute starts talking?.I am no follower of Sathya Sai Baba,but unlike the evangelists he did not use his powers of miracle for evil designs like conversion.The very foundation of Catholic Christianity is based on miracles for one to attain sainthood.But in India with most of the columnists coming out of Catholic schools,they are damn scared  to criticise or ridicule miracles attributed to Christian saints.In our Bangalore,every Thursday, Deccan Herald carries a cluster of advertisements from people who have been granted their wishes by Infant Jesus.We should leave it to the believers,for their faith in Sai Baba or Infant Jesus.Afterall,they go to these powers for redressal of their difficulties.

Baba had many many powerful politicians, bureaucrats as his unflinching devotees. Interestinglly, their devotion to baba and their corrupt ways of looting and plundering the nation continue together. Did the baba ever advise his corrupt disciples to give up their evil ways? Or do the corrupt devotees get a sense that they can continue their evil ways and even then they will be blessed by God ?

For once, I agree with Sugata, though these are not his views. He is merely reporting an interaction between the two persons. But it is beyond doubt that Sai baba was a trickster, who made a mass base for himself by using tricks that road-side magicians can do. I remember seeing a program on good old doordarshan where someone has shown on camera how he actually pulled a gold chain from his sleeve and not from thin air. But the program was quickly taken off air and was never repeated.

Baba stopped doing such tricks for 2 reasons: (a) he had already established himself, and (b) he was afraid of video cameras tracking his moves. It is commendable that later in life, he did social work. May be he had a change of heart. Maybe the outpouring of faith of so many devotees humbled him. May be he knew himself he was no god but an ordinary mortal. Who knows? But in India, you can fool many people all the time.

>>I sincerely hope the Puttaparthi Baba will not betray his own foretelling and will be around till he turns 96

Baba betrayed his own foretelling. He died yesterday and he was 84.

It seems the author is totally devoid of any miracle in his life. Those who had not exprienced miracles in life did not understand what is life at all. 

I advise this fellow , to read a lecture of Swami Vivekananda on "Power of the Mind"

Here is the link:

http://www.lifepositive.com/spirit/masters/swami-vivekananda/vivekananda.asp

All things can be produced from thin air. And mantras can be chanted to get rid of  poison in blood. I have seen  a mantric chanting a mantra, when a scorpion had bitten by my little brother who was only three year old and I was 7 year old. He stopped crying after a person beloging to weaver community came and chanted a mantra. Offcourse, the scorpion was killed much before.  The poison effect on such a little kid was gone, for a mantra which we could not even hear.

I have seen at least three more such miracles in my life convincing me that there is much more to life than what  we see.

Do not agree with you less, Mr Hegde!

 The "God" who died will be continued to be worshipped by the gullible followers! No political leader has the moral courage to ever question it, as his following is a very large constituency!

 This is the only critical  article I have read since  Mr. Godman  fell  terminally ill.  The mass media is  tremendously  disciplined, almost  stalinist level discipline, in  covering up his murky  methods. Hardly  anyone  is  even allowed  or quoted  in media  who  don't indulge in this embarrassing spectacle of  Baba worship.

Even  Abraham Kovoor  took on him  once  like Narasimhaiah. Just like with HN ,  Sai baba avoided  Kovoor.

 This is the only critical  article I have read since  Mr. Godman  fell  terminally ill.  The mass media is  tremendously  disciplined, almost  stalinist level discipline, in  covering up his murky  methods. Hardly  anyone  is  even allowed  or quoted  in media  who  don't indulge in this embarrassing spectacle of  Baba worship.

Even  Abraham Kovoor  took on him  once  like Narasimhaiah. Just like with HN ,  Sai baba avoided  Kovoor.

Spiritual and Madaree should not be the same thing.

 Seems to me that Ramki is a follower of Sai baba and is responding from his hurt ego. What Sugata mentions in this article is merely a description of the interaction between two public personalities.

 Seems to me that Ramki is a follower of Sai baba and is responding from his hurt ego. What Sugata mentions in this article is merely a description of the interaction between two public personalities.

A very good article which bares the evil of superstitions.

No amount of rational proofs to the contrary will open the eyes of those who want to be believiing in the "Magic Wand" and "Abracadabra" spells.

Technology has dented the ability of bulk of  our educated youngsters to be rational.  Without a question they tend to follow Godmen and Tricksters who promise Eldorado, spiritual or otherwise.

Talking about Scientific Temper - here is a poser to all those who object to having any kind of faith in supernatural power and/or allegiance to any religious belief. The key argument of those rationalists is that science and its application (technology) has brought unprecedented benefits to well being of human kind.

The above argument has one critical flaw- namely did science and its application alone in isolation would have brought such kind of comforts to present day humanity?

Answer is - NO. For instance, it is generally agreed that 19th century saw the greatest relative progress in our understanding of science. But 19th century did not see so much of improvement in material living conditions, except for a minority in west europe and north america.

It was the huge discovery of fossil fuels , particularly oil which unlocked the power to improve human lives and eventually made all the difference to our living conditions. Our present day high living standards is wholly due to our spending of the accumulated energy savings by way of burning fossil fuels - oil, gas, coal et al. And these fossil fuels - which are all biotic savings of solar energy captured in the past are also driving most of the advances that mankind made in 20th century/making now - be it the space travel or green revolution or LHC (Large Hadron Collider).

Given this, our adoration for scientific progress and scientific temper should be tempered with the realization that we need enormous amount of resources to maintain this progress (and I am not even talking about the side effects of this resource consumption,like global warming etc here). And is it not fair that some of us feel thanful to factors beyond science (i.e towards nature and its ultimate creator) for the material spendour and easy life we lead today relative to our forefathers ? Maybe the day when science tells us how to create time, space, energy and matter out of nothing (vaccuum), then mankind could learn to have unlimited material prosperity without constraints - that would be the day when scientific temper and its proponents can justly demand that people shed all their beliefs.

Till then  , the rationalist enthusiasts should wait. Fair enough right?

Bonita - Agreeing with you totally. We need both believers and disbelievers to coexist. However, what I object to is the posturing by the new age left that having some kind of belief is politically incorrect and something undesirable and/or harmful for building a progressive society. Far from it, one would say with enough evidence that blind belief in political ideologies (as opposed to religions) and dogma has caused far more damage to societies than anything else. But  MSM (MainStream Media) of today is actually promoting the cult of making belief in some faith/religion as politically correct. The extent they promote varies from media house to media house.

All religions are based on supraphysical occurences which cannot be proved or disproved. Freedom to believe is a right. It is also a right to disbelieve. Believers and disbelievers can coexist peacefully as long as neither tries to impose their views on the other.

Sugata Srinivasaraju,

No matter how many leftist rationalist atheists like you preach, there will always be some people who believe in the irrational  ; there will always be some who believe in GOD, in miracles and like. Seventy years of Communism in Soviet Union could not change anything. And despite Fidel Castro, there are Cubans who believe in God. And despite decades of totalitarian communism , North Korea is not the best place in terms of Human Development. And Scientific Temper ? Well North Korea has plenty of it, you can go and check it yourself.

Maybe you should get a life and get back to what you are best at - writing articles that keep blaming on the State Government in Karnataka for all the ills that happen over there. Good try, but nothing great.

PS -

Sugata Srinivasaraju,

No matter how many leftist rationalist atheists like you preach, there will always be some people who believe in the irrational  ; there will always be some who believe in GOD, in miracles and like. Seventy years of Communism in Soviet Union could not change anything. And despite Fidel Castro, there are Cubans who believe in God. And despite decades of totalitarian communism , North Korea is not the best place in terms of Human Development. And Scientific Temper ? Well North Korea has plenty of it, you can go and check it yourself.

Maybe you should get a life and get back to what you are best at - writing articles that keep blaming on the State Government in Karnataka for all the ills that happen over there. Good try, but nothing great.

PS -

All religions are based on supraphysical occurences which cannot be proved or disproved. Freedom to believe is a right. It is also a right to disbelieve. Believers and disbelievers can coexist peacefully as long as neither tries to impose their views on the other.

Bonita - Agreeing with you totally. We need both believers and disbelievers to coexist. However, what I object to is the posturing by the new age left that having some kind of belief is politically incorrect and something undesirable and/or harmful for building a progressive society. Far from it, one would say with enough evidence that blind belief in political ideologies (as opposed to religions) and dogma has caused far more damage to societies than anything else. But  MSM (MainStream Media) of today is actually promoting the cult of making belief in some faith/religion as politically correct. The extent they promote varies from media house to media house.

Talking about Scientific Temper - here is a poser to all those who object to having any kind of faith in supernatural power and/or allegiance to any religious belief. The key argument of those rationalists is that science and its application (technology) has brought unprecedented benefits to well being of human kind.

The above argument has one critical flaw- namely did science and its application alone in isolation would have brought such kind of comforts to present day humanity?

Answer is - NO. For instance, it is generally agreed that 19th century saw the greatest relative progress in our understanding of science. But 19th century did not see so much of improvement in material living conditions, except for a minority in west europe and north america.

It was the huge discovery of fossil fuels , particularly oil which unlocked the power to improve human lives and eventually made all the difference to our living conditions. Our present day high living standards is wholly due to our spending of the accumulated energy savings by way of burning fossil fuels - oil, gas, coal et al. And these fossil fuels - which are all biotic savings of solar energy captured in the past are also driving most of the advances that mankind made in 20th century/making now - be it the space travel or green revolution or LHC (Large Hadron Collider).

Given this, our adoration for scientific progress and scientific temper should be tempered with the realization that we need enormous amount of resources to maintain this progress (and I am not even talking about the side effects of this resource consumption,like global warming etc here). And is it not fair that some of us feel thanful to factors beyond science (i.e towards nature and its ultimate creator) for the material spendour and easy life we lead today relative to our forefathers ? Maybe the day when science tells us how to create time, space, energy and matter out of nothing (vaccuum), then mankind could learn to have unlimited material prosperity without constraints - that would be the day when scientific temper and its proponents can justly demand that people shed all their beliefs.

Till then  , the rationalist enthusiasts should wait. Fair enough right?

A very good article which bares the evil of superstitions.

No amount of rational proofs to the contrary will open the eyes of those who want to be believiing in the "Magic Wand" and "Abracadabra" spells.

Technology has dented the ability of bulk of  our educated youngsters to be rational.  Without a question they tend to follow Godmen and Tricksters who promise Eldorado, spiritual or otherwise.

 Seems to me that Ramki is a follower of Sai baba and is responding from his hurt ego. What Sugata mentions in this article is merely a description of the interaction between two public personalities.

 Seems to me that Ramki is a follower of Sai baba and is responding from his hurt ego. What Sugata mentions in this article is merely a description of the interaction between two public personalities.

Spiritual and Madaree should not be the same thing.

 This is the only critical  article I have read since  Mr. Godman  fell  terminally ill.  The mass media is  tremendously  disciplined, almost  stalinist level discipline, in  covering up his murky  methods. Hardly  anyone  is  even allowed  or quoted  in media  who  don't indulge in this embarrassing spectacle of  Baba worship.

Even  Abraham Kovoor  took on him  once  like Narasimhaiah. Just like with HN ,  Sai baba avoided  Kovoor.

 This is the only critical  article I have read since  Mr. Godman  fell  terminally ill.  The mass media is  tremendously  disciplined, almost  stalinist level discipline, in  covering up his murky  methods. Hardly  anyone  is  even allowed  or quoted  in media  who  don't indulge in this embarrassing spectacle of  Baba worship.

Even  Abraham Kovoor  took on him  once  like Narasimhaiah. Just like with HN ,  Sai baba avoided  Kovoor.

Do not agree with you less, Mr Hegde!

 The "God" who died will be continued to be worshipped by the gullible followers! No political leader has the moral courage to ever question it, as his following is a very large constituency!

It seems the author is totally devoid of any miracle in his life. Those who had not exprienced miracles in life did not understand what is life at all. 

I advise this fellow , to read a lecture of Swami Vivekananda on "Power of the Mind"

Here is the link:

http://www.lifepositive.com/spirit/masters/swami-vivekananda/vivekananda.asp

All things can be produced from thin air. And mantras can be chanted to get rid of  poison in blood. I have seen  a mantric chanting a mantra, when a scorpion had bitten by my little brother who was only three year old and I was 7 year old. He stopped crying after a person beloging to weaver community came and chanted a mantra. Offcourse, the scorpion was killed much before.  The poison effect on such a little kid was gone, for a mantra which we could not even hear.

I have seen at least three more such miracles in my life convincing me that there is much more to life than what  we see.

>>I sincerely hope the Puttaparthi Baba will not betray his own foretelling and will be around till he turns 96

Baba betrayed his own foretelling. He died yesterday and he was 84.

For once, I agree with Sugata, though these are not his views. He is merely reporting an interaction between the two persons. But it is beyond doubt that Sai baba was a trickster, who made a mass base for himself by using tricks that road-side magicians can do. I remember seeing a program on good old doordarshan where someone has shown on camera how he actually pulled a gold chain from his sleeve and not from thin air. But the program was quickly taken off air and was never repeated.

Baba stopped doing such tricks for 2 reasons: (a) he had already established himself, and (b) he was afraid of video cameras tracking his moves. It is commendable that later in life, he did social work. May be he had a change of heart. Maybe the outpouring of faith of so many devotees humbled him. May be he knew himself he was no god but an ordinary mortal. Who knows? But in India, you can fool many people all the time.

Baba had many many powerful politicians, bureaucrats as his unflinching devotees. Interestinglly, their devotion to baba and their corrupt ways of looting and plundering the nation continue together. Did the baba ever advise his corrupt disciples to give up their evil ways? Or do the corrupt devotees get a sense that they can continue their evil ways and even then they will be blessed by God ?

Will this writer have the guts to ridicule the miracles performed by the evangelists,when the blind starts seeing,lame start walking and the mute starts talking?.I am no follower of Sathya Sai Baba,but unlike the evangelists he did not use his powers of miracle for evil designs like conversion.The very foundation of Catholic Christianity is based on miracles for one to attain sainthood.But in India with most of the columnists coming out of Catholic schools,they are damn scared  to criticise or ridicule miracles attributed to Christian saints.In our Bangalore,every Thursday, Deccan Herald carries a cluster of advertisements from people who have been granted their wishes by Infant Jesus.We should leave it to the believers,for their faith in Sai Baba or Infant Jesus.Afterall,they go to these powers for redressal of their difficulties.

>> Will this writer have the guts to ridicule the miracles performed by evangelists ....

I believe there were no miracles, belief in miracles is nothing but superstition. There was no revealations either and hence I consider Buddha to be the greatest prophet.

.....We should leave it to the believers,for their faith in Sai Baba or Infant Jesus.Afterall,they go to these powers for redressal of their difficulties...... S S Nagaraj

With such "faithfuls" there is no room for reasoning. We will be  continued to be blessed with new Gods and Godmen for the Blind Men of Bharat!

In view of the likelihood of Black Money flowing into hitherto untaxed entities in India, I strongly feel, the Committee on "Jan Lokpal" Bill should include to bring the funds and assets, including their source, of such entities under the purview of Income Tax and the Lokpal.

In view of the likelihood of Black Money flowing into hitherto untaxed entities in India, I strongly feel, the Committee on "Jan Lokpal" Bill should include to bring the funds and assets, including their source, of such entities under the purview of Income Tax and the Lokpal.

Being the richest businessman, the best player, the most corrupt politician, a dreaded gangster or posessing the latest and most expensive gifts from technology or having the most successful academic records doesn't gurantee anyone to be less superstitious.

Living a life of luxury is bad when so many half naked children are starving on the footpaths. So, the babas and their devotees should show us the way by leading austere lives.

Setting up posh Ashrams and places of worships that worth thousands of crores of rupees is not necessarily the work that will be liked by God,.... but doing something good for the lakhs of starving angels on the streets will definitely contribute to making the world a better place and that will be a real service to God also.

"Baba stopped doing such tricks for 2 reasons: (a) he had already established himself, and (b) he was afraid of video cameras tracking his moves....

Kiran Bagachi
mumbai, India"
 

You can type "Sai baba vibhuti abhishekam" in youtube.com and see the video. Where from so much ash was coming ?. I would like to know, if there is any special "trick" for this.

Narasimhaiah reproduces all the three letters in his book Tereda Mana (An Open Mind) published by Christ College Kannada Sangha in 1992.

Sugatha lacks either a sense of irony or enquiry.  Isn't it amusing this association of skeptics from Christ College (must be skeptics, why else would they publish Narasimiah?) are charged up about exposing the "miracles" of Satya Sai Baba, but have shown no interest in studying the miracles the creed of their college is built upon.  As Sam Harris put it in a debate with the notorious apologist William Lane Craig, a few weeks back, "For those of you who make much of the miracles of Jesus, have you heard of Satya Sai Baba in India?  If Satya Sai Baba's miracles haven't merited more than a n hour on Deiscovery Channel, why are we wasting time on the [supposed' miracles of Jesus?"

The miracles are an insignificant part of Satya Sai Baba's life.  What is significant are the public works - sanitation projects, housing, hospitals and schools.  Unlike Outlook's favourite charlatan Teresa (the ghoul of Kolkata) Satya Sai Baba did not preach that suffering is a gift from god or that poverty is lovely.  He set about changing the world, and nviting people to join him without leaving their faith.  The outpouring of grief from all sections of society, cutting across every division is truly wonderful.  When a known Hinduphobe like Karunanidhi and a scholar of the stature of Dr. HM Ansari our Vice President have the same thing to say about Satya Sai Baba, you know that this was  remarkable man indeed.  My advice to skeptics and rationalists, Hinduism is low hanging fruit, because Hindus are great skeptics.  If you have a problem, go after the clones of Oral Roberts, Billy Graham and Ravi Zachariah in India - the Dinakarans and the rest, who fool the public with stories of some sky fairy and promising miracle cures, all the while relieving a gullible public of their money.

If the intention Hucchu Narasimhaiah was to encourcage people to have rational thinking, why refer to those like Buddha who supposedly  performed Miracles? Is he not conttradicting himself

>>>>Is he not conttradicting himself

That should read 'was he not contradicting himself?' HN is no longer with us

 " He arrogantly claimed that there was no force on earth that could examine him."

If true, this goes against the entire principle of Guru-sishya of India. A Guru must examine the disciple thoroughly before accepting him and the student must thoroughly examine the Guru before accepting him as the Guru. Ramakrishna Paramahamsa encouraged everyone to examine him critically just as a money lender examines the money given to him. 

And personally, while I admire the social work done by Baba, I am turned off by the miracles-which have nothing to do with spirituality. I do not think the miracles are hoax. A person performing sadhanas develops the "eight siddhis" and other powers as result of those sadhanas.

These siddhis are nevertheless diversions and not real spirituality. The constant refrain in hindu scriptures is to avoid falling into the trap of these miraculous powers.

 "I sincerely hope the Puttaparthi Baba will not betray his own foretelling and will be around till he turns 96."

That this prediction did not turn out to be true does dent the claim of Baba being all knowing. 

I don't believe in miracle, period. Having said that, some of modern day Gods Man do need to perform some magical act to get attention and retain his followers, specially "lato ke bhoot jo bato se nahi manate" .
My understanding from reading of Baba's work is quite impressive, he did spent lots of money on hospitals, sanitation work, schools, etc. So I guess he could be forgiven for performing deception, it is all for a good cause.

Sai Baba was well known for the so-called miracle power and there were controversies surrounding him for many years. I remember years ago of a controversy when his trickery was exposed on TV camera. The famous magician P C Sorcar Junior on his encounter with Sai Baba also exposed his trickery. When Baba greeted Sorcar taking out a sweet from thin air, Sorcar also waved his hands and handed him back a different sweet. "You are a magician, so also am I, " he said.

These tricks will not take away the credit Baba deserved for all the philanthropic work he carried out all these years. And I don't remember reading much about his miracles in recent years.

The rationalists in every religion question the human claims of miracle power. And the credulous and the superstitious still continue to believe in miracles.

Kolkata, April 24 (IANS) Legendary magician P.C. Sorcar Jr, who had replicated the 'miracles' of Sathya Sai Baba during a meeting with him 35 years ago, Sunday mourned the death of the spiritual leader saying he had deep respect for his development work.
'I have always said that I have deep respect for the Sai Baba phenomenon minus the tricks. He has done lot of development work. In areas which do not have water he has laid water pipelines. He founded hospitals and schools. These things are praise worthy,' added the magician.
Sorcar had always claimed that Sai Baba was no godman but just a man of tricks like him. The meeting in '1975-76' between P.C. Sorcar Junior and Sai Baba was a well publicised one. After Sai Baba had given him 'darshan', Sorcar asked for a gift. Baba duly produced a sandesh 'out of thin air'. Sorcar said he didn't like sandesh, and turned it magically to a rossogolla instead.
'He used to give vibhuti (holy ash) to all, but it would not be proper to bury all his good work under the ashes by highlighting only his other side. Whatever magical powers he showed, I can do all that without claiming myself to be a god,' said Sorcar.
 

Even Jesus was a Miracle Worker, He was CRUCIFIED for it...

Strangely most men started believing in him only after his Death...ha ha

I tell you all one thing... Even if Ram/Krishna/Muhammad/Jesus happen to come to you you and command you to walk on water with confidence you would still be sceptical (as john the baptist was to Jesus)...cause Faith can see the truth while rationality has a limitation...

Having said that I have never been a follower of Sathya Sai Babaji... But I am gracious enough to understand that there can be great men like Jesus who were not understood in their times and so may be Sathya Sai of Puttaparthi....Sai has more followers than any living human being today and that surely makes him a Prophet of 2011 :)..

Give respect to a soul that has departed, do not overrationalize your peanut brains....

May Sai ji continue to bless us all...

"Where from so much ash was coming? I would like to know, if there is any special "trick" for this."

If you REALLY would like to know the special "trick", you have to open your mind to doubt. Termed as a “bad” virtue, doubt, I think is the true beginning of budhdhi. All inventions and discoveries are a result of doubt. Any baba who says, “don’t try to understand me, just fellow me” is a fraud! Satya Sai baba did say this.

As for the ash coming out in the video, I am no magician but I can assure you that chemistry can answer this. I am also sure there are thousand of magicians who can replicate it. BTW, I did see a TV program a couple of years back where a rationalist showed using some chemical in his palm which produced loads and loads of ash. He didn’t name Satya Sai baba but he did say all such things can be easily replicated.

It goes without saying that a gullible and depraved people like us deserve our Sai Babas, A Rajas and Kalmadis.

 # 29 and # 30

Very informative! 

 "Today we find many children with bad character and bad behavior. The reason for this can be attributed to the bad thoughts of their mothers." (19th Nov. 2000)

Comment 35 by Male Unblocked:

Cant make out anything out of your "Leaky" comment in quotes!

## Today we find many children with bad character and bad behavior. The reason for this can be attributed to the bad thoughts of their mothers ##

Typical Male (Unblocked) ranting !! :D

What about good character and good behaviour ?

"It goes without saying that a gullible and depraved people like us deserve our Sai Babas, A Rajas and Kalmadis."

Absolutely!!

SHRI >> Seems to me that Ramki is a follower of Sai baba and is responding from his hurt ego. What Sugata mentions in thisarticle is merely a description of the interaction between two public personalities.

I am neither a follower of Sai Baba nor someone who is interested in his miracles and/or the miracles of similar faith leaders. I am only trying to combat the sense of false superiority that the so called rationalist-atheist brigade try to propagate in MSM(MainStream Media).And when someone rejects the sense of false superiority, some egos get hurt !

And as someone who has been reading the writer (SrinivasaRaju) for quite some time, it is obvious as to what he is trying toconvey through the so called interaction. And look at the way not even a single person has contradicted POST NUMBER 4. Hmm....

And as for hurt egos we have always a set of people who pretend to have egos even when they were crushed by the so calledcollapse of world's only scientifically planned and constructed nation/society called Soviet Union. People on so called scientific temper/rationalist brigade side are good at kiss and makeup and they have no real reason to expose their hurt egos.

Ajit Hedge >> Hardly anyone is even allowed or quoted in media who don't indulge in this embarrassing spectacle of Baba worship.

When was the last time we saw in MSM (MainStream Media), any article that is critical of Sonia Gandhi and her family? The MSM which went hammer and tongs about the 2G Scam or the ISRO-Devas Deal and MMS culpability is so silent on the role of the 2Gs
in the scam. Why ? Or why is MSM so silent about Mukesh Ambani? Outlook which went the whole hog in its other publication (Outlook Business) about the ills and the ills of Anil Ambani is strangely silent on his elder brother. Selective Amnesia ? Hmm...

Jaleel >> Setting up posh Ashrams and places of worships that worth thousands of crores of rupees is not necessarily the work that will be liked by God,.... but doing something good for the lakhs of starving angels on the streets will definitely contribute to making the world a better place and that will be a real service to God also.

Certainly Sai Baba and quite some other religious leaders have done a lot for the well being of the neglected sections of the society. Despite the bad elements, far more good has been done by god believers and god men than the so called rationalist marxists and their extremist followers. It will help if you seek to investigate what is done by him with an objective mindset and you would be presently surprised. And it is for this good deeds that one should appreciate SaiBaba - and not for his miracles (which may be true, maynot be true, but really have no relevance to the debate here).

R V Subramanian >> With such "faithfuls" there is no room for reasoning. We will be continued to be blessed with new Gods and Godmen for the Blind Men of Bharat!

What is your problem if people refuse to be reasoned and seek the help of Godmen and have faith in God? People are entitled to believe in what they feel is in their best interest and certainly dont need the help of rationalist moral brigade in suggesting them on something. And if you feel that Bharat is blinded by belief, why is that the few nations in the world which were/are non religious /atheist, such as erstwhile Albania and present day NOrth Korea are not faring any better?

R V Subramanian >> Technology  has dented the ability of bulk of our educated youngsters to be rational. Without a question they tend to follow Godmen and Tricksters who promise Eldorado, spiritual or otherwise.

Technology has not freed humankind from depending on resources (fossil fuels, minerals etc) gifted by nature to pursue our well being. Given this, We irrationals are still waiting for LHC Project to show us that there is no god. Please have some patience till then.

Jaleel >> Baba had many many powerful politicians, bureaucrats as his unflinching devotees. Interestinglly, their devotion to baba and their corrupt ways of looting and plundering the nation continue together. Did the baba ever advise his corrupt disciples to give up their evil ways?

Jaleel >> There was no revealations either and hence I consider Buddha to be the greatest prophet.

Going by your own logic, why is that the followers of Buddha have not imbibed his philosophy of non violence? Some of the most violent wars in recent times have been due to acts of people who follow buddhism - be it Japanese during WW2 or Sri Lanka (which waged war on its ethnic minority Tamils).

Merely because a person speaks rationalist ideology and refuses to believe in god does not make him or her a paragon of goodness.

Merely because a person believes in the occult and paranormal and belives in faith does not make him or her a paragon of vice  and evil.

The world is peopled with black and white characters as the rationalists love to potray. We are all different shades of grey - some darker, some lighter. Sai Baba is one such shade of grey.

RAMKI:

While I can understand illiterates or semiliterates falling  prey to such Tricksters, I fail to understand why the educated , who unite themselves for a cause like "Anti Corruption",  can fall at the feet of such godmen who are more likely to be aflush  with unaccounted funds from corrupt sources!

Faith in God cannot be equated with faith in a godman/Charlatan.

Ramki, from the way you argue logically, with reasons of your own, I suspect you have doubts which are probably troubling you.
 

RAMKI:

While I can understand illiterates or semiliterates falling  prey to such Tricksters, I fail to understand why the educated , who unite themselves for a cause like "Anti Corruption",  can fall at the feet of such godmen who are more likely to be aflush  with unaccounted funds from corrupt sources!

Faith in God cannot be equated with faith in a godman/Charlatan.

Ramki, from the way you argue logically, with reasons of your own, I suspect you have doubts which are probably troubling you.

RAMKI:

While I can understand illiterates or semiliterates falling  prey to such Tricksters, I fail to understand why the educated , who unite themselves for a cause like "Anti Corruption",  can fall at the feet of such godmen who are more likely to be aflush  with unaccounted funds from corrupt sources!

Faith in God cannot be equated with faith in a godman/Charlatan.

Ramki, from the way you argue logically, with reasons of your own, I suspect you have doubts which are probably troubling you.

 "Faith in God cannot be equated with faith in a godman/Charlatan."

Faith in God can be equated with faith in a godman. That is the whole idea behind the Guru-sishya relationship. The disciple is supposed to see God thro' his Guru.

Whether the particular godman in question is a charlatan or not need to be decided on an individual basis.

>> Did the baba ever advise his corrupt disciples to give up their evil ways?<<

JALEEL,  Did the POPE whose heart bleeds for the poor intervene when the JEWS were being exterminated by HITLER?? Had HITLER, a practising Christian, been excommunicated by POPE, many lives could have been saved. Has the present POPE declared the "SWISS Christian BANKERS" accepting LOOTED FUNDS from countries which have starving millions like India as unethical when BIBLE explicitely prohibits it?? On which GODS direction is the Muslims blasting SUFI DARGAS and killing each others accusing each other of being non-ISLAMIC while insisting that Islam is the ultimate religion of peace?? 

GOD is within each of us. What ever is attributed to GOD is the result of "natural forces" or human activity. If BABA has provided "happiness" to his his followers- the means is of absolutely no importance- the rest shouldn't have any problem because BABA did not insist that "his way is the only way and curse all others to hell fire for not following him".   

Comment 44 : Ganesan

I agree Guru has a special place in the ancient Guru:Shishya equation. While Guru was held in highest esteem and respect , the Guru, then, never led a lifeof opulence and did not ever run a plush trust of the kind we see now. The Gurus of yore, while not calling themselves God/Godman, led a spartan life and imparted their wisdom/learning to the disciples.

The present day Gurus are  "Monks who Ride the Ferraris"!

I am just awestruck at the number of people here that are trying to JUDGE the credentials of Sathya Sai !! I am no follower of Sathya Sai yet I believe that a con man cannot con people for 70 years up untill till age 86 and that too sooo many followers, poor, millionaires, indian, white, black, chinese and japanese etc.....

Has Sai done any wrong to you personally? How are you guys so sure that his miracles are just tricks?

If you read the Bible you will read a gospel where Jesus walks through a crowd who were trying to touch him to get healed or be blessed... Jesus suddenly turns back and exclaims "who just touched me, I felt energy seeping out of me !"... an old leper woman sitting on the ground shouted it was me and I got cured instantly, Jesus picked her and said YOUR FAITH was the enabler of this miracle...Note: Many others in the crowd werent healed...DOES THAT MAKE JESUS A FAKE SON OF GOD????

John and other deciples of jesus were going back after a day of techings and riding in a boat, Jesus told to join them later. Sometime later these deciples saw Jesus approacing them walking on the water...they couldnt believe and were scared...Jesus asked John to have faith , hold his hand and step out of the boat to walk on water ...John was sceptical and started drowning... Jesus replied "If only you had the faith equal to one mustard seed you could command the mountain to... " 

I was in South Africa, where Indians dont even know hindi etc... One of my Indian orgin South African colleague started telling me about her relative in the neighbourhod in Pietermaritzburg that underwent a bizzare incident of having ash rains in their house for a month continuously... they were puzzled and called for municipal authorities to check the ceiling etc...but to no avail, the ash rains continued....that family didnt know who Sathya Sai was till then untill the face of Sathya Sai appeared on the ash filled floor.... They became aredent devotees of Sathy Sai since then....

As Jesus "THE SON OF GOD" could not touch the lives of many billions...so may be Sathya Sai could not touch the lives of people like me and you...maybe its not our Karma to be blessed by the guidance of a Saint as he blessed Sachin Tendulkar (who carries the photo of sai in his pocket always)..

So be happy and do NOT JUDGE unless Sathy Sai has sodmoized you personally or played tricks on you and looted you :)....

Gresham Law that "Bad Money drives away Good Money" applies here. In Irrationality there is no room for sanity!

Comment 48 amended:

Gresham Law that "Bad Money drives away Good Money"  seems to apply  to "views" as well! In Irrationality there is no room for sanity!

The whole problem is not allowing scientists and skeptics to probe into the truth. Mystery can never become truth and just by having a large number of followers and a small number of opponents again does not turn mystery into truth. It is just the belief of so many individuals that makes you feel that it is the truth.Every human has the right to question and enquire and truth should be made known. If you have a belief in BABA which you expressed, let others who do not believe or believe in the truth also express themself

There are lots of philanthropic workers in India or for that matter in the whole world and there are lots of great magicians too but none of those become godman. It is the religion which combines these two activities and projects the religious preacher as godman. There is no rationalistic argument possible in religious doctrines. If you argue the doctrine you are an arrogant common man and if you don’t then you are either a follower of or the Satya Sai Baba himself.

Satya Sai baba did not teach his diciples to go bomb schools , instead he used their offerings to build schools. He did not teach them to spread terror , he asked them to provide relief to society. He built hospitals; he brought drinking water to about 300 villages among a lot of other very physical and material  things. They are no illusion. His message is a belief in positive karma and respect for all.  How does it matter if he got peoples attention by performing magical tricks? Important thing is to evaluate baba for his role in bringing positive energy and thoughts . For creating institutions like hospitals & schools that will bring lasting value.  You do not have to believe in him, just belive in his contribution . Even my maths teacher got our  attention by telling a fantastic joke right at the begining of his calculas class. That did not make him a Joker. He was a great teacher. What we got out of that class is another matter.

In Irrationality there is no room for sanity!

R V Subramanian
Gurgaon, India
 

This is not a fair statement. Irrationality involves all our feelings, beliefs  and creative thinking coming from the right side of our brain, while logical thinking and rationality is a product of our brain's left side. Knowingly and unknowingly we  use both aspects of our mind ( that are mutually exclusive) and our final response is a complex process involving both. You cannot rationalize the beliefs or feelings just as you cannot use your feelings to explain your logical thinking. 

Still the rationalists would love to use reasoning to explain irrationality . That's why complex mathematics tries hard to model the irrationalities of the stock market investors and fails. That's why overly analytical mind fails to appreciate creativities involved in poetry and arts. A rational mind also fails to appreciate that often its own logical thinking follows from a certain belief that itself is not rational. For example, those of us who believe in free market fundamentals automatically accept the logical reasoning that the modern economic theories offer. But if we believe in a different ideology that considers that  production or services are not owned by entrepreneurs and shareholders but by the workers and labourers then we will be framing a different logical reasoning that Marxists build. One can call the other insane . But both are using rationality, it is their beliefs that are different.

Religious beliefs and political beliefs are also in the realm of irrationality. Why else do the neo-liberals argue with the nationalists? Why do the secular and atheists use a logic totally different from the logic used by the deeply religious? It's all because of the differences in their beliefs. That doesn't mean the one is more sane than the other.

Having said that, I conclude that those who believe in Sai Baba will continue to believe in the miracles even if these are proven to be trickery by a great magician. They will fail to open their mind for a more scientific inquiry of seemingly unnatural phenomenon  because it then questions their own beliefs. Instead they will use a different line of logic to attack the critics because they are actually questioning their beliefs. The same people after watching a magician's performance however will readily accept that those were all tricks, even if they do not have the possible explanation. That is easy for them because it is not questioning their religious beliefs.

It is hard to believe that this man did all the magic tricks, all the while proclaiming him self as some incarnation of God, just so that he could do all the good things that he did in the later part of his so called avatara. It is just too unbelievable. It is also so very amazingly contradictory for a person who preached simplicity, but always seen with pomp, in genuine silver and golden settings.

DC, NEW YORK, United States

Your have argued (very well) on the basis of one single stand alone comment taken by you in isolation. Please read  Comment 47 whose "rational" comment ends with  the following "gentle" quip:

"......So be happy and do NOT JUDGE unless Sathy Sai has sodmoized you personally or played tricks on you and looted you :)...."

Hope yani Asha..if you know how to sell it, you are already a ISO 9001 religious company! India is number one in this branch of business. Where political and bureaucratic corruption is at its peak, where hundreds of millions of people have not got basic amenities of life, Hope is really a soothing and rare product. A sugar daddy or Amma who takes the mob of people under her spell and shower hope as one sprinkles water on the grass, i think it can bring tears of gratitude in the hearts of people who are on the bottom of the pyramid.

Truth is a bitter medicine..Someone like J Krishnamurti, UG or Osho could deleiver this with, but who wants that!
 

"Hope yani Asha..if you know how to sell it, you are already a ISO 9001 religious company! "

Agree , its a  money spinning business!

Addition to Comment 57:

"Hope yani Asha..if you know how to sell it, you are already a ISO 9001 religious company! "

Agree , its a  money spinning business and Tax Free! A more likely haven for parking easy money with no holds barred!
 

if Baba's simple tricks (of plucking ash, chains, lingas) were not exposed by the media, and that his popularity in this regard had continued unabated, then I'm sure he would have mastered the art of plucking out pumpkins too.. ;)