What low quality article

What informative comments.

The comments here are truly blessed. Full of deep knowledge.

Contrarian, I draw your attention to the comments under the review of Raghav Bahl's book "Superpower".There is a very approving remark about Babur, by someone called "Eddie", from your country of residence, the UK. What do you make of Anglo-American laudatory remarks and citations of Babur, including his derogatory description of India as he found it then?

Do you think it is a question of fellow travellers, in this case fellow colonisers of India, praising one of their own?

"A mosque is a mosque. Who built it is of no importance. I don't know much about his character, nor am I interested in it."

If it is built atop a place where I have worshipped for time immemorial then it is of concern to me ... I will still worship there mosque or not ... like Hindus have the Ram Janma Bhumi ...

I read this article and thought "this cannot be real. MIT cannot have this kind of boneheaded faculty". Feels good to know that the author is an assistant librarian at MIT ( http://libguides.mit...&sid=1111745#3484806 ).

One is not surprised that Outlook is indulging in a fraud upon its readers by giving space to a fringe guy and trying to pass him off as some kind of authority by playing up his association with MIT.

Contrarian,

>> the Babri mosque in Ayodhya was not built atop a temple on the orders of a person of character like Babar.

A mosque is a mosque. Who built it is of no importance. I don't know much about his character, nor am I interested in it.

Contrarian, excellent detail about Babur. Interestingly, Western historians( i.e British, American, and whoever else writes about the subject) almost totally ignore these very compromising details about Babur's life, including his cruelty, debauchery and perversion.

These historians focus on the alleged 'glory' of his conquests in India, and his generally negative description of the land and its people.

It's almost as if they are acting as a retroactive geo-political cheering squad, rather than as scholarly and dispassionate historians. Babur is seen by them as yet another of the great foreign conquerors( and of course the great conquerors include the British) who defeated native kingdoms like Rana Sangha's, and inaugurated a foreign regime. The ethical, moral, intellectual questions surrounding his behaviour, policies and achievements are conveniently ignored. Because if they were to raise those issues, that would call into question colonial and imperial policies that their own countries aggressively pursued. And as a corollary, it would then place the Indian people, not their rulers or conquerors, at the centre of history.

The Babur worshipping historians will have none of that.

The contrarian: good job. always go to the source. Trying to imagine Thapar et.al criticizing the Guru Granth Sahebe.
BTW; checking original sources should it not be a job requirement for Library Research Assistant at the MIT?
So muslims destroyed temples because that is where the wealth was, so that makes it ok i guess.
same logic for the 360 idols? nothing against idol worship but i want ur money.

Is it not clear from the history all over the world that there are two ways of consolidating power - militarily and theocratically or morally. Once the immediate military aims are achieved, the conquerors set about to destroy the aesthetic beliefs and faiths of the conquered. Romans did it to Jews, Muslims did it to all the lands and people their warlords plundered or won, British tried it in India but failed, and the latest, Han Chinese invasion of Tibet and annihilation of Tibetan culture and identity.

Like his predecessors Qutb-ud-Din and Khiljis, the Mughal Babar, despised India and Hindus, their faiths and culture (Ref: Babarnama). Let’s have a look at the character of this man who has been credited – rather heroically by likes of Khalidi - with laying the foundations of Mughal empire in South Asia.

In his autobiography Babarnama, written by the man himself in Chagatai (an extinct Turkic language of Central Asia), which was later translated in Persian by one of Akbars' courts' nav-ratnas (9 jewels), Abdur Rahim Khan-e-Khana (who composed in Hindi too), Babar admits being a paedophile and wrote poems in love of a boy named Babri. The Babri Masjid in Ayodhya is said to be in memoir of Babar's love interest. He also had a great passion to kill people, cut heads of people and create pillars out of cut head. He claims to have created several such pillars.

Babar claims to be an orthodox Sunni Muslim and religion had a central place in his life, and even though homosexuality, mass genocide and use of alcohol/narcotics are Haram in Islam, he indulged heavily in all of them, as he approvingly quotes a line from Omar Khayyam, "I am drunk, friend. Punish me when I am sober." He also relates that one of his uncles "was addicted to vice and debauchery. He kept a lot of catamites (young boys in sexual relationship with a man). In his realm, wherever there was a comely, beardless youth, he did everything he could to turn him into one. During his time this vice was so widespread, that to keep catamites was considered a virtue."

Babar was also known to cough up blood, had numerous boils on his person, suffered from Sciatica (a disease of nervous pains) and also bled fluid from his ears. He was a heavy drinker and took hashish, perhaps as a means of alleviating the various illnesses he suffered from. Died when just 47 he gave up alcohol only 2 years before his death in AD1531 for health reasons, and demanded that his court do the same. But he did not stop chewing narcotic (opium etc.) and did not lose his sense of irony. He wrote “Everyone regrets drinking and swears an oath [of abstinence]; I swore the oath and regret that.”

However, it is believed that evening before his final decisive battle at Khanwua near Agra with Rajputs fighting under Rana Sangram Singh (Rana Sanga) of Mewar, he smashed his drinking cups vowing never to drink again - a vow he kept.

In Baburbani verses which are part of Guru Granth Saheb, Baba Nanak describes invasion of Babar’s invasion of Punjab and the brutalities that he eye witnessed first hand as translated in Englsish and excerpted here:

From Rag Asa, pg.360: “Having attacked Khorasan, Babar terrified Hindustan. The Creator Himself does not take the blame, but has sent the Mughal as the messenger of death. There was so much slaughter that the people screamed. O Creator Lord, You are the Master of all. If some powerful man strikes out against another man, then no one feels any grief in their mind. But if a powerful tiger attacks a flock of sheep and kills them, then its master must answer for it. This priceless country has been laid waste and defiled by dogs, and no one pays any attention to the dead.”

Rag Asa, pg. 417-418: “Those heads adorned with braided hair, with their parts painted with vermillion - those heads were shaved with scissors, and their throats were choked with dust. They lived in palatial mansions, but now, they cannot even sit near the palaces.

Since Babar's rule has been proclaimed, even the princes have no food to eat. The Muslims have lost their five times of daily prayer, and the Hindus have lost their worship as well. Without their sacred squares, how shall the Hindu women bathe and apply the frontal marks to their foreheads? They never remember their Lord as Ram, and now they cannot even chant Khuda. Millions of religious leaders failed to halt the invader, when they heard of the Emperor's invasion. He burned the rest-houses and the ancient temples; he cut the princes limb from limb, and cast them into the dust.

The Hindu women, the Muslim women, the Bhattis and the Rajputs - some had their robes torn away, from head to foot, while others came to dwell in the cremation ground. Their husbands did not return home - how did they pass their night?”

What other proofs does Khalidi and his ilk seek, or is Guru Granth Saheb myth too for them, that the Babri mosque in Ayodhya was not built atop a temple on the orders of a person of character like Babar?

Suraj Bhan's wonderland continued. This statement also shows the professional dishonesty of Irfan Habib:

"It is true that my conclusions and views on certain
issues are based on my knowledge existing prior to the
submission of ASI’s report in court"

"Consequent to submission of ASI’s report in the
matter and the claim that remains of temple were found at
the disputed site, I and Prof. Irfan Habib had given this
statement that remains of old mosque or Eidgah had been
found beneath the disputed site and not of any temple. If
this propaganda that remains of temple were found at the
disputed site, had not taken place, there would have been
no occasion for me and Prof. Irfan Habib to give the above
statement"

Dont you all think it's time we revisisted the 'history' written by 'eminent' historians Messrs, Sharma, Thapar, Hasan, Habib? If they have gone to this length to first subvert the truth from an accepted consensus that a temple predated the mosque to saying that no temple existed at all and it became a "hindu claim", how do we know that what's written in NCERT is based on actual fact and is not a political viewpoint?? As far Omar Khalidi, he is an Islamic Design Architect, why bother even perusing his opinion? It's like if Chetan Bhagat suddenly overnight tried to do a Salman Rushdie.

It's only in India where historical fact, science and procedure based thorough investigations are given lesser credence when compared to a political opinion.

It becomes painfully clear that all these turds masquerading as experts on archaeology and history in newspapers and magazines suddenly develop cold feet when they have to back up their assertions with evidence in a court. These charlatans derive their legitimacy by publishing third class articles in a magazine published by a man whose journalistic zenith comprised publishing pictures of naked women but put them up against a person with half a brain and they run yelping to their mommies. The High Court has done a seminal service to Indian academia by exposing these frauds for the filth they are and ensuring that they won't be taken seriously outside their incestuous mutual love societies.

Statement of Jaya Menon, appearing for the Muslim parties:

"According to me walls and structures prior to 12th
century were found in excavation but no floor prior to
12th century was found at the site. According to me the
oldest wall found in excavation was of first to third
century AD and the oldest structure found would be
structure 5 which may be of 6th century AD"

"agree with the observation of Prof. H.C.
Bharadwaj at page 73 of his article that gypsum
mortar/plaster was used in the Harappan period. I agree
with the observation in the latter part of this para that
gypsum was used as mortar in the Kalibangan period
also. . . . . .Lime mortar was definitely used from Neolithic period"

Statement of D Mandal, appearing for the Muslim parties:

"I do not think that during my stay, the
archaeologists had built any pillar etc. In my presence,
nothing took place such as the said archaeologists
building something secretly or forcibly. During the
excavation, I had seen that the articles found in
excavation were separated"

"On basis of the A.S.I. Report and my own spot
inspection, I have arrived at the conclusion that large
scale structural activities were carried out at the disputed
site during the Kushana period and Gupta
period"

""In my view, this circular shrine would be of the
Gupta period"

"Birbal Sahni Institute is a recognised institution
of Carbon-Dating. I agree with the period of NBPW given
by A.S.I. in its report as Period-1 from 6th BC to 3rd BC"

"A decorated stone has been fixed in Wall No. 17.
This decorated stone is floral motif. It is used in Hindu
temples. Wall No. 17 is of the Gupta period. It is of the
period between 4th to 6th AD"

"I agree with the layer 5A mentioned in A.S.I. Report.
It is non-Islamic structure. A 'Parnala' (gargoyle) is
possibly not there in Stupa. Then stated that I do not have
knowledge of the fact whether there is a 'Parnala'
(gargoyle) or not in a Stupa"

"As an archaeologist, I admit discovery of
structures beneath the disputed structure during
excavation"

Deposition of Suraj Bhan, one of the key critics of the ASI report, in the case. See how he gets taken apart and ripped to pieces


"Wall no. 23 is visible only partially. Probably it may have been in north-south. The wall no. 25 is eastwards in
north-south direction. This wall is in trench J-6. I can not tell at the spur of moment without knowing the context, as to whether the wall no. 25 is of the Gupta period. However, I do not have any objection in ASI terming it to be of the Gupta period. Whether the wall no.26 is older than wall no.25 or not, is not clear only from perusal of this figure.
However, it is possible that this wall is earlier to wall
no.25, because I had seen wall of earlier period over
there in the trench. ASI has shown it to be of Kushana
period, and I have no objection in it"

"“The wall no.28 is in trench J-3. It is so mentioned in
the report that this concrete stone wall is of the Shunga
period. I have no objection about such period
calculation"

"This terracotta is not associated with the structures of the Sultanate period prior to the Babri masjid"

"It is correct to say that several remains associated with
Hinduism have been discovered from the excavations of
particular strata of Ayodhya"

"Whatever has been shown by the excavators, was definitely present in the excavation i.e. that portion appears to be in-situ"

"I agree with the report of ASI about the remains of
temple, to the extent that these remains may have been
of some temple"

"I have no objection regarding the period
calculation of structures and walls except for the period
calculation made in respect of structures subsequent to
period 6 & 7"

"According to this plan, remains of 28 walls have been found in the excavation. I have already stated that during the excavation I had gone there on only three days"

"The ASI has shown 50 alleged pillar bases in
this plan. . . . . . Since I had not seen all these alleged
pillar bases on the spot and had seen only few, as such it
is not possible for me to verify them"

"It is true that glazed ware & glazed tiles were being
made in India even prior to the Sultanate period, but they
were very less in number and different from the glazed
ware & tiles of the Sultanate and Mughal period.”

"I am unable to dispute the period given by ASI, because I have not seen the evidence related to it. … From perusal of these plates it appears that successive constructional activity must have existed at the disputed site, if their dates are correct"

There are fascist among the Hindus also. But none of them can ever come close to the likes of Omar Khalidis, Zakir Naik et all. The civilized world, especially the civilized Muslims should just ignore these blind, superstitious people with 7th century mentalities.

this same garbage by khalidi is on the tehelka website. After the HC judgement, the secular media is running for cover because their false propaganda stands exposed. Now they are giving prominence to all secular scoundrels like romila, rajeev dhawan etc. this khalidi is a known rascal. wonder what critreia mit follows when it gives jobs to such crackpots like khalidi

Omar Khalidi is behaving like sore loser and venting his frustration on ASI for bringing out 'truth'. Dont understand the Muslim unwillingness to accept the bitter fact that the barbarians islamic invaders destroyed virtually every temple they came across and there are scores of testimony to this from Muslim historians themselves to this effect. The technical rebuttal to his arguments will have to be done by experts but the facts remain evacations on site was carried by ASI on directions and supervisions of high court. Anyways facts do not change on ground and further evacations would only reinforce what ASI has concluded.

he..he..Selvan,

>> because he was treated as a nutcase at that time(he really is).

Only an ill-bred moron would say that.

he..he..Selvan,

>> because he was treated as a nutcase at that time(he really is).

Only an ill-bred moron would say that.

****
If IDOL worship was so abhorrent why was the IDOLS not destroyed from 711AD- when Muhammad commenced get revelations from God, till Muhammad's escape to Madina in 722AD??
****

because he was treated as a nutcase at that time(he really is). But when he broke the idols he won a military victory. But as Anwaar said idolatory is abhorred in all Abrahamic religions.

The truth hurts Mr Khalidi, but one is better off facing it than evading because it hurts even more when it hits later.

Contrarian, excellent as always. I've always wondered why it is modern Indians feel some kind of obligation to acknowledge the (non) contributions of these horrible tyrants like Qutubdin Aibak. Aibak was almost as bad as Mahmud and Aurangazeb. The invader had no fondness for India, the Indian people, the Indian culture or history. They were here to loot, vandalise, destroy and impose. It's the grotesque immaturity or fanaticism of large sections of Moslems, including educated ones like Jinnah, that causes them to identify with these brutes, and take offense when these criminals' misdeeds are called for what they are.

Outlook, You should think twice about providing a platform for biased articles like these. He seems extremely uninformed about the ASI as well the exact nature of the 2003 report used by the High Court. All shades of opinion are welcome but ignorance along with bias? Isn't there something about whipping up communal disharmony in the Constitution or has your editorial board lost all sense of discretion?

And as per Khalidis' claims that "The ASI’s methods serve to perpetuate the Hindutva groups’ myth of Muslim depredation of Indian heritage" and "The ASI and the official tourism bureaus’ characterization of Indian archaeological sites as the foci of Muslim vandalism reinforces what was learnt through biased textbooks", let's start with the very first structure and mosque that Muslim rulers built in India ...

The Qutb Minar and Quwwatu'l (might of) Islam mosque are situated in the Mehrauli area of South Delhi and built among the ruins of Lal Kot (red fortress). The Lal Kot whose remnants can still be seen was the seat of Tomar and Chauhan rulers of Dhillika (old name of Delhi) in early 12th century. Its construction as a watch tower was commenced by the Chauhans. That its lower 3 stories have distinct Hindu/Jain origins despite Quranic engravings is further proven by an unusual for a Muslim structure engraving in Sankrit "Shri Vishwakarma prasade rachita" (conceived with the grace of Vishwakarma – the Hindu deity of builders).

The claim that Qutb Minar was built by the first Sultan of Delhi Qutb-ud-din Eibak can be disputed on various grounds. First, Qutb in arabic means a pole or a tower and also that a magnetic compass is called Qutb-numa. Ancient Hindus were eminent astronomers and they could have started to build a tall tower to serve two purposes – watch an advancing enemy and study the movement of celestial bodies and their influence over Earth, its climate and inhabitants. Second, Mihiravali in Sanskrit is a collection of stars. So, it is quite possible that a space observatory was operational in these parts before Islamic invasion.

Third, even a cursory look at the columns of Quwwatu'l Islam would reveal their Hindu/Jain architecture with carvings of human forms, gods and goddesses, flora and fauna, jewellery and other motifs expressly forbidden in Islam.

And last but not the least, what an Ashoka Iron pillar doing there in the middle of the court yard ?

Is it not clear that there were two ways of consolidating power - militarily and theocratically. Once the immediate military aims were achieved, Qutb-ud-Din set about to establish himself not just as a marauding invader, but a proselytizing missionary destroyimg temples.

But, if one goes by Khalidi, ASI has no role to play here ...

Now, come to the claim on the location of Rani Padmini’s jauhar (self immolation) in Chittorgarh. Is it not a recorded history by Muslim calligraphers themselves that Alauddin Khilji, unable to subjugate the Rajputs of Mewar and having heard of Padmini’s beauty besieged the impregnable Chittor fort with his massive army ? Rajputs had no choice but to open the gates and fight to finish. The Rani with all women of Chittorgarh to save their honour jumped into the fire and committed Jauhar which is folklore not just in Rajasthan but all over India.

The Hindi poet, Malik Mohd Jayasi, a muslim, immortalised this story of bravery, honour and sacrifice in his epic Padmavat, but to Khalidi and his ilk it is a myth invented by ASI – like they despise all Hindu epics …

More to follow (for the discerning ) on other Khalidi claims …

"What Justice Sharma was referring to was the ASI’s report of 2003 on Ayodhya of dubious value. What the ASI claimed to be the bases of pillars which held up the alleged temple turn out not to be pillar bases at all."

--- why? because Khalidi says so?

The Siva shrine at a lower level adds no strength to the claim of a Ram temple.

--- why? Shiva-Vishnu temples are very common. So whats the issue with finding a Shiva shrine in the compound? Visit any temple and you'll find that along with the presiding deity there are normally other deities as well!

The terracotta from different levels has been so jumbled up that it can be linked to no particular stratum and period. Moreover, the presence of animal bones and glazed ware found at the site makes it difficult to claim that a Ram temple existed on this site between the XII and XVI centuries.

--- why? what has the animal bones got to do with this?

"This spurious theory of Muslim rulers building over “Hindu” structures has certainly gained ground."

--- spurious? this is a well recorded fact of history including by the muslim rulers themselves! This statement alone has proved to me that Khalidi is a bigot in the garb of an intellectual!

I was quite angry with the Outlook editorial for publishing this very biased article, at best an unabashed attempt in distortion, by a person like Omar Khalidi whose credentials as described as a "scholar" and "staff member of MIT" are quite disputable ...

However, when one reads Koenrad Elst counterpoint "Eminent Historians" published just above Khalidi's, one would probably forgive Outlook ... but not the likes of Romilla Thapar and Irfan Habib, the known Hindu-bashers and distortionist Marxist "historians" ... they could already be part of the signature campaign to intimidate the Supreme Court into annulling the Allahabad verdict along with some politically (Muslim vote bank) motivated pseudo-secularists ...

"This article is about ASI"

ANWAAR,

That is your perception. What OMAR KHALIDI has written is an effort blame ASI for raking up the "temple demolition and IDOL breaking" by Muslim Rulers in India. Non existence of any temples older than 1700's in the gangetic plain dominated by Muslim rulers while existence of many temples more than 1000 years old in South India substantiate it.

Akil,

>> If IDOL worship was so abhorrent why was the IDOLS not destroyed from 711AD- when Muhammad commenced get revelations from God, till Muhammad's escape to Madina in 722AD??

Why don't you take your questions to some religious website which would have mullahs as stupid as yourself to have a learned discussion with you, or better still take your questions to a Jewish rabbi, since smashing of idols started with Abraham. This article is about ASI which has not not done any digging in Mecca.

First thing Muhammad did on returning to Mecca from Madina in 728AD was to break the existing place of worship and IDOLS at Mecca. KHALIDI may argue that it was with the consent of the inhabitants of Mecca, after the peaceful capture of Mecca by Muhammad. But MECCA was not the place of worship of the inhabitants of MECCA alone but of many "nomadic tribes of ARABIA". HAJ like pilgrimage to MECCA was performed by these tribes even before ISLAM. So how was that destruction justified to the "vast majority of nomadic tribes" who lived outside Mecca??? These "nomadic tribes" were subjugated by wars fought by Muhammad after capture of Mecca and so evidently these tribes did not support destruction of their place of worship.

If IDOL worship was so abhorrent why was the IDOLS not destroyed from 711AD- when Muhammad commenced get revelations from God, till Muhammad's escape to Madina in 722AD?? Why did Muhammad wait till his triumphant return from MADINA after his famous military victories while at Madina??? Evidently he would have been killed had he done it.

Rajeev dubey ,

Excellent comment on Omar khalidis stated truth. On which side is outlook? truth or something else

Here I remember himanshu kumar self claimed gandhian and overground naxal supporter. he first claimed vctory when supreme court sent a NHRC fact finding team. When the report came and pointed out the false charges then he started blaming NHRC as stooge of government.

Same case is here.

"Verdict Link:

http://elegalix.alla...aBenchLandingPage.do"

Thanks Rajeev.

Verdict Link:

http://elegalix.alla...aBenchLandingPage.do

can anyone provide the link for full verdict ? I think Shubhang did post it, but I am not able to locate it.

"Rajendar Sachar says, "The judgment can be summed up in two words"

Rajinder Sachhar is Handmaiden of Islamists .

Ghai,

>> In Ayodhya ASI was working under control and supervision of High Court ...

But the point I was making was about the reaction of this forum to the two reports.

"How each judge reached the ‘precise birthplace’ of Lord Ram

Nobody can dare to ask such questions for such pious and reverent beliefs in other religions like Jesus Christ, Prophet Mohammad Saheb, etc...then where is the question of asking such an evidence in the matter of religious faith and belief which is not just a few hundred years old but travels in the history of several thousands of years,” he questions.

He quotes the dispute of Al Aqsa in Jerusalem where the Far Mosque is “treated the third most pious place by Muslims since they believe that Prophet Mohammad descended there after visiting Heaven”. “Nobody even doubts their faith,” he says."


http://www.indianexp...of-lord-ram/693232/0


Every Religion has its folklore and soft belly .Question Hindus about their beliefs in respect of Ram and be ready for counter questions about Mohammad sahib and Christ.

Gentlemen who are flinging question Marks on Hindus' beliefs have themselves to answer many counter questions too.

Peace in India now depends upon how both the races proceed after the Court judgment.

Seems we are heading on head on collision egged upon pea nut sized brains egged upon by hot heads for the sake of their petty egos.

Perhaps we are destined in India to fight bloody Civil Wars.

Will hardliners have their way ? Seems so.

Beginning of another round of blood letting ?

Actually this author gives quite an insight into how such people function and how their arguments are structured.

See the links:

1. Babri Masjid - stated truth
2. ASI Report...dubious value - stated truth
3. bases of pillar...not ..pillars - stated truth
4. Siva shrine...not ram temple - stated truth
5. terracotta...jumbled up...no particular period - stated truth
6. animal bones and glazed ware...difficult to claim that Ram temple existed - stated truth
7. ASI's role in marshalling dubious evidence - stated truth
8. excavation agenda that privileged some sites to hindus - stated truth
9. ASI's colonial origins - stated truth
10. propagate the myth...Purana Qila
11. spurious theory of muslim rulers building over hindu structures
12. Hindutva gang
13. ASI deploys ... efface the long and bloody Hindu sctarian wars...
14. ASI's methods serve to perpetuate the Hindutva...
15. Representations of India as Hindu in incredible India
16. ...they learn that these are Hindu sites pillaged by Muslim depredations
17. the various self-appointed touts and guides at the sites are ubiquitous. They provide a spicy supplement to the official narrative of Muslim vandalism...
18. The ASI and the official tourism bureaus’ characterization of Indian archaeological sites as the foci of Muslim vandalism reinforces what was learnt through biased textbooks.

Now one needs to ponder over that ASI functions under central government which has been ruled by Congress considered to be secular by media and the establishment has been in general influenced by communist ideologies. So how come the ASI became so powerful that it turned everything upside down! Without any basis, without any truth in their ways of functioning; are Hindus such a biased set of people that they created a history that was exactly opposite as compared to the 'stated truth' proponent of this article!

Is he trying to say that we all have been fools for all these years. Our history books were cooked up?

If Hindu groups came and made such accusations as above about history being narrated as per communist ideology, with communist thinkers all around in such institutions, and pro Hindu groups having very little place in central government due to the presence of Congress at the center, it might still be a point to consider.

The arguments of this article would need a huge re-writing of India's history if they turn out to be correct!

"can you please explain what happened to all the Hindu temples in North India?"

I've never thought about that. Interesting point. Made me look this up and read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu_temple

"1.It is interesting that the same people who are going gaga supporting the ASI on Ayodhya

2. were ready to tear the ASI apart when the ASI testified in the Ram Setu case in the Supreme Court Ram that "there is no historical and scientific evidence to establish the existence of Lord Ram or the other characters of the Ramayana"!Faruki
----
Part 1 and 2 of statement above are not compatible.

----

In Ayodhya ASI was working under control and supervision of High Court with Hindu and Muslim Representatives signing Daily Report.

HENCE ASI HAD NO CHANCE TO FUDGE THE REPORTS per likings of The Govt.

In case of Ram Setu : ASI changed stances per Manmohan Singh'criticism of ASI.First it said Ram does not exists and when Singh said even in Guru Granth Sahib Ram word appears 1700 Plus times -ASI and Madam Minister changed the stances and turned 180 degrees.

The issue in Ayodhya `is simple and let us not confuse it .

Does a Mandir or any old similar structure exists beneath the Babri site or not ?

ASI says it exists .

THIS STATEMENT CAN BE REVERIFIED by any other Agency if Muslim are unhappy.


And if old structures exist then is Babri Masjid ok per Islam ?

ASI did not give any ruling on existence of Ram or Ram Mandir and its destruction.

mr Kahlidi is expecting too much from India!! According to him ASI is an incompetetnt body. Tell me Mr Khalidi, Is the MMS Government competent? And High Court Judges MUST trust the incompetent ASI just as it trusts the Laws frame by incompetent Indian Governments.

I appeal Mr Khalidi to settle in India and when the case goes to Supreme court, pls plead you case and bring out the Truth. With all the Secular Media behind him, let him prove that the Mosque was built on "purchased" land or "donated land" (and not invaded land) and the Supreme court will have to decide in favour of the Waqf Board or AIMPLB or whosoever represent the interest of Muslim community.

Mr Khalidi, can you please explain what happened to all the Hindu temples in North India? You find gigantic Hindu temples in Indonesia, Cambodia, Laos, Thailand and rest of South East Asia, but hardly any in North India. Also, what happened to all the Hindu culture, music and dances in North India. You still find them in South and North-East India, which muslims did not fully conquer, but hardly any in North and West India were muslims committed most of the atrocities.

"The Sangh Brotherhood has a thin skin."

That's still better than being a thick-skinned pseudo-secular.

--"Khalidi is known scum and has essentially recommended the re-partitioning of India"
--"Yawn."
--"Notice both the slyness and audacity of this character. "
--"What an astounding and bigot-riven crap."
--"Bigoted POS Omar Khalidi whines"
--"Fu@k!^g grace!! The stinker bombs from Outlook can't get worse."
--"Naturally, being a Jihadi, you shall not find the inverse of this interesting."

The Sangh Brotherhood has a thin skin. Ruffle their feathers just a tad and the retards begin to self-destruct !

>> It is interesting that the same people who are going gaga supporting the ASI on Ayodhya

Naturally, being a Jihadi, you shall not find the inverse of this interesting.

Just crying foul with strong worlds does not obliterate the truth. no body blames Muslim community as a whole but blame only Muslim invaders and their stooges like Nawabs or local commanders. Descretion of Somnath temple by Mohammad Ghanzavi is a know historical fact. Mr. Omar Khalidi will not accept it. Mr. Omar Khalidi will not recognise old district gazzettes of pre-independence India. Being a professional, I will not comment on the veracity of his conclusions on ASI report. but I will request that some leaders from his community or going to Hon. Supreme Court. Their lawyers can raise his doubts etc.Kindly dont become another Ms. Benazir Bhuttoo and Parveez Mushraff who accepted their anti-india feeling after denying for a long time. We all pray that sanity may prevail in the mind of our US national friend. Satyatmvate Jayanti is our national motto.

Anwaar,

"It is interesting that the same people who are going gaga supporting the ASI on Ayodhya were ready to tear the ASI apart when the ASI testified in the Ram Setu "

Who are these people ?

It is interesting that the same people who are going gaga supporting the ASI on Ayodhya were ready to tear the ASI apart when the ASI testified in the Ram Setu case in the Supreme Court Ram that "there is no historical and scientific evidence to establish the existence of Lord Ram or the other characters of the Ramayana"!

If Archelogical Survey of India is Hunditva !
If Indian judiciary is Hindutwa !

Then who is Omar Khiladi, the writer of this blog ?

A dirty Pak ISI agent ?

"What Omar Khalidi does not mention is that he is a Library Research Assistant in the MIT (which does qualify as Staff member, even if Omar is parsimonious with his background)."

Fu@k!^g grace!! The stinker bombs from Outlook can't get worse. Vinod Mehta is a living example of what editors should not be. No wonder, most boarders only browse the content and jump onto the Comments section. All intellect and all fun is bounded within the "Comments" section.

Bigoted POS Omar Khalidi whines: "When tourists come to the sites and monuments, they learn that these are Hindu sites pillaged by Muslim depredations. "

That is because it is the truth --- don't be afraid of it, Mr. Khalidi. Just accept it -- the truth will set you free.

Omar Khalidi also happens to be a citizen of the USA.

"0Omar Khalidi is an independent scholar and a staff member of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Cambridge, Massachusetts, USA."

What Omar Khalidi does not mention is that he is a Library Research Assistant in the MIT (which does qualify as Staff member, even if Omar is parsimonious with his background). Omar Khalidi studied Islamic architecture in Saudi Arabia for 15 years before moving to MIT in USA. He was born in Hyderabad and was instrumental in demanding that the Indian Army be broken down by Religion. He is in the same league as the other islamist demagogue Zakir Naik.

What an astounding and bigot-riven crap. With Muslims like him, the community needs no enemy, no defamation, no ill-boding.
.

Notice both the slyness and audacity of this character. Not only does he deny the history of Islamic vandalism in India, he makes it look like the real vandals are the ancient Hindu kings of India, who demolished or took over Buddhist buildings!

Your article is about 8 years late. It would have any value then. No one raised any issues when HC asked ASI to do the digging for evidence. People like you and other secular whiners were confident that the HC verdict will favor muslims. The hell break loose when things did not go your way. No one cares about your whining anymore. BTW some of your whines are already answered by HC judges

Yawn.

Khalidi is known scum and has essentially recommended the re-partitioning of India into Musalmaan districts - painting him as an independent scholar is about as truthful as painting Zakir Naik as a scholar - both are hate peddlers and dangerous to all non-muslim citizens of India.

[Khalidi is a proponent of reconfiguring districts in many Indian states to create “compact Muslim zones” where Muslim culture and rights could be “safeguarded.” It doesn’t matter to him, as some have pointed out, that India has more than safeguarded Muslim interests at a constitutional level, even at the expense of social cohesiveness and national security.

Looking at this suggestion from a jihadist angle is revealing: Khalidi is devising new ways by which Muslims can achieve political power within certain areas in a secular and democratic India. This is a clever ploy.

As pointed out earlier, in every Muslim-majority area of South Asia, including ones within India, non-Muslims have been marginalized and ethnically cleansed in a massive way. Also, once Muslims in these regions achieve power, the regions have become jihad bases for further destabilizing India.]

Khalidi is known scum and has essentially recommended the re-partitioning of India into Musalmaan districts - painting him as an independent scholar is about as truthful as painting Zakir Naik as a scholar - both are hate peddlers and dangerous to all non-muslim citizens of India.

[Khalidi is a proponent of reconfiguring districts in many Indian states to create “compact Muslim zones” where Muslim culture and rights could be “safeguarded.” It doesn’t matter to him, as some have pointed out, that India has more than safeguarded Muslim interests at a constitutional level, even at the expense of social cohesiveness and national security.

Looking at this suggestion from a jihadist angle is revealing: Khalidi is devising new ways by which Muslims can achieve political power within certain areas in a secular and democratic India. This is a clever ploy.

As pointed out earlier, in every Muslim-majority area of South Asia, including ones within India, non-Muslims have been marginalized and ethnically cleansed in a massive way. Also, once Muslims in these regions achieve power, the regions have become jihad bases for further destabilizing India.]

Yawn.

Your article is about 8 years late. It would have any value then. No one raised any issues when HC asked ASI to do the digging for evidence. People like you and other secular whiners were confident that the HC verdict will favor muslims. The hell break loose when things did not go your way. No one cares about your whining anymore. BTW some of your whines are already answered by HC judges

Notice both the slyness and audacity of this character. Not only does he deny the history of Islamic vandalism in India, he makes it look like the real vandals are the ancient Hindu kings of India, who demolished or took over Buddhist buildings!

What an astounding and bigot-riven crap. With Muslims like him, the community needs no enemy, no defamation, no ill-boding.
.

"0Omar Khalidi is an independent scholar and a staff member of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Cambridge, Massachusetts, USA."

What Omar Khalidi does not mention is that he is a Library Research Assistant in the MIT (which does qualify as Staff member, even if Omar is parsimonious with his background). Omar Khalidi studied Islamic architecture in Saudi Arabia for 15 years before moving to MIT in USA. He was born in Hyderabad and was instrumental in demanding that the Indian Army be broken down by Religion. He is in the same league as the other islamist demagogue Zakir Naik.

Omar Khalidi also happens to be a citizen of the USA.

Bigoted POS Omar Khalidi whines: "When tourists come to the sites and monuments, they learn that these are Hindu sites pillaged by Muslim depredations. "

That is because it is the truth --- don't be afraid of it, Mr. Khalidi. Just accept it -- the truth will set you free.

"What Omar Khalidi does not mention is that he is a Library Research Assistant in the MIT (which does qualify as Staff member, even if Omar is parsimonious with his background)."

Fu@k!^g grace!! The stinker bombs from Outlook can't get worse. Vinod Mehta is a living example of what editors should not be. No wonder, most boarders only browse the content and jump onto the Comments section. All intellect and all fun is bounded within the "Comments" section.

If Archelogical Survey of India is Hunditva !
If Indian judiciary is Hindutwa !

Then who is Omar Khiladi, the writer of this blog ?

A dirty Pak ISI agent ?

It is interesting that the same people who are going gaga supporting the ASI on Ayodhya were ready to tear the ASI apart when the ASI testified in the Ram Setu case in the Supreme Court Ram that "there is no historical and scientific evidence to establish the existence of Lord Ram or the other characters of the Ramayana"!

Anwaar,

"It is interesting that the same people who are going gaga supporting the ASI on Ayodhya were ready to tear the ASI apart when the ASI testified in the Ram Setu "

Who are these people ?

Just crying foul with strong worlds does not obliterate the truth. no body blames Muslim community as a whole but blame only Muslim invaders and their stooges like Nawabs or local commanders. Descretion of Somnath temple by Mohammad Ghanzavi is a know historical fact. Mr. Omar Khalidi will not accept it. Mr. Omar Khalidi will not recognise old district gazzettes of pre-independence India. Being a professional, I will not comment on the veracity of his conclusions on ASI report. but I will request that some leaders from his community or going to Hon. Supreme Court. Their lawyers can raise his doubts etc.Kindly dont become another Ms. Benazir Bhuttoo and Parveez Mushraff who accepted their anti-india feeling after denying for a long time. We all pray that sanity may prevail in the mind of our US national friend. Satyatmvate Jayanti is our national motto.

>> It is interesting that the same people who are going gaga supporting the ASI on Ayodhya

Naturally, being a Jihadi, you shall not find the inverse of this interesting.

--"Khalidi is known scum and has essentially recommended the re-partitioning of India"
--"Yawn."
--"Notice both the slyness and audacity of this character. "
--"What an astounding and bigot-riven crap."
--"Bigoted POS Omar Khalidi whines"
--"Fu@k!^g grace!! The stinker bombs from Outlook can't get worse."
--"Naturally, being a Jihadi, you shall not find the inverse of this interesting."

The Sangh Brotherhood has a thin skin. Ruffle their feathers just a tad and the retards begin to self-destruct !

"The Sangh Brotherhood has a thin skin."

That's still better than being a thick-skinned pseudo-secular.

Mr Khalidi, can you please explain what happened to all the Hindu temples in North India? You find gigantic Hindu temples in Indonesia, Cambodia, Laos, Thailand and rest of South East Asia, but hardly any in North India. Also, what happened to all the Hindu culture, music and dances in North India. You still find them in South and North-East India, which muslims did not fully conquer, but hardly any in North and West India were muslims committed most of the atrocities.

mr Kahlidi is expecting too much from India!! According to him ASI is an incompetetnt body. Tell me Mr Khalidi, Is the MMS Government competent? And High Court Judges MUST trust the incompetent ASI just as it trusts the Laws frame by incompetent Indian Governments.

I appeal Mr Khalidi to settle in India and when the case goes to Supreme court, pls plead you case and bring out the Truth. With all the Secular Media behind him, let him prove that the Mosque was built on "purchased" land or "donated land" (and not invaded land) and the Supreme court will have to decide in favour of the Waqf Board or AIMPLB or whosoever represent the interest of Muslim community.

"1.It is interesting that the same people who are going gaga supporting the ASI on Ayodhya

2. were ready to tear the ASI apart when the ASI testified in the Ram Setu case in the Supreme Court Ram that "there is no historical and scientific evidence to establish the existence of Lord Ram or the other characters of the Ramayana"!Faruki
----
Part 1 and 2 of statement above are not compatible.

----

In Ayodhya ASI was working under control and supervision of High Court with Hindu and Muslim Representatives signing Daily Report.

HENCE ASI HAD NO CHANCE TO FUDGE THE REPORTS per likings of The Govt.

In case of Ram Setu : ASI changed stances per Manmohan Singh'criticism of ASI.First it said Ram does not exists and when Singh said even in Guru Granth Sahib Ram word appears 1700 Plus times -ASI and Madam Minister changed the stances and turned 180 degrees.

The issue in Ayodhya `is simple and let us not confuse it .

Does a Mandir or any old similar structure exists beneath the Babri site or not ?

ASI says it exists .

THIS STATEMENT CAN BE REVERIFIED by any other Agency if Muslim are unhappy.


And if old structures exist then is Babri Masjid ok per Islam ?

ASI did not give any ruling on existence of Ram or Ram Mandir and its destruction.

"can you please explain what happened to all the Hindu temples in North India?"

I've never thought about that. Interesting point. Made me look this up and read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu_temple

Actually this author gives quite an insight into how such people function and how their arguments are structured.

See the links:

1. Babri Masjid - stated truth
2. ASI Report...dubious value - stated truth
3. bases of pillar...not ..pillars - stated truth
4. Siva shrine...not ram temple - stated truth
5. terracotta...jumbled up...no particular period - stated truth
6. animal bones and glazed ware...difficult to claim that Ram temple existed - stated truth
7. ASI's role in marshalling dubious evidence - stated truth
8. excavation agenda that privileged some sites to hindus - stated truth
9. ASI's colonial origins - stated truth
10. propagate the myth...Purana Qila
11. spurious theory of muslim rulers building over hindu structures
12. Hindutva gang
13. ASI deploys ... efface the long and bloody Hindu sctarian wars...
14. ASI's methods serve to perpetuate the Hindutva...
15. Representations of India as Hindu in incredible India
16. ...they learn that these are Hindu sites pillaged by Muslim depredations
17. the various self-appointed touts and guides at the sites are ubiquitous. They provide a spicy supplement to the official narrative of Muslim vandalism...
18. The ASI and the official tourism bureaus’ characterization of Indian archaeological sites as the foci of Muslim vandalism reinforces what was learnt through biased textbooks.

Now one needs to ponder over that ASI functions under central government which has been ruled by Congress considered to be secular by media and the establishment has been in general influenced by communist ideologies. So how come the ASI became so powerful that it turned everything upside down! Without any basis, without any truth in their ways of functioning; are Hindus such a biased set of people that they created a history that was exactly opposite as compared to the 'stated truth' proponent of this article!

Is he trying to say that we all have been fools for all these years. Our history books were cooked up?

If Hindu groups came and made such accusations as above about history being narrated as per communist ideology, with communist thinkers all around in such institutions, and pro Hindu groups having very little place in central government due to the presence of Congress at the center, it might still be a point to consider.

The arguments of this article would need a huge re-writing of India's history if they turn out to be correct!

"How each judge reached the ‘precise birthplace’ of Lord Ram

Nobody can dare to ask such questions for such pious and reverent beliefs in other religions like Jesus Christ, Prophet Mohammad Saheb, etc...then where is the question of asking such an evidence in the matter of religious faith and belief which is not just a few hundred years old but travels in the history of several thousands of years,” he questions.

He quotes the dispute of Al Aqsa in Jerusalem where the Far Mosque is “treated the third most pious place by Muslims since they believe that Prophet Mohammad descended there after visiting Heaven”. “Nobody even doubts their faith,” he says."


http://www.indianexp...of-lord-ram/693232/0


Every Religion has its folklore and soft belly .Question Hindus about their beliefs in respect of Ram and be ready for counter questions about Mohammad sahib and Christ.

Gentlemen who are flinging question Marks on Hindus' beliefs have themselves to answer many counter questions too.

Peace in India now depends upon how both the races proceed after the Court judgment.

Seems we are heading on head on collision egged upon pea nut sized brains egged upon by hot heads for the sake of their petty egos.

Perhaps we are destined in India to fight bloody Civil Wars.

Will hardliners have their way ? Seems so.

Beginning of another round of blood letting ?

Ghai,

>> In Ayodhya ASI was working under control and supervision of High Court ...

But the point I was making was about the reaction of this forum to the two reports.

"Rajendar Sachar says, "The judgment can be summed up in two words"

Rajinder Sachhar is Handmaiden of Islamists .

can anyone provide the link for full verdict ? I think Shubhang did post it, but I am not able to locate it.

Verdict Link:

http://elegalix.alla...aBenchLandingPage.do

"Verdict Link:

http://elegalix.alla...aBenchLandingPage.do"

Thanks Rajeev.

Here I remember himanshu kumar self claimed gandhian and overground naxal supporter. he first claimed vctory when supreme court sent a NHRC fact finding team. When the report came and pointed out the false charges then he started blaming NHRC as stooge of government.

Same case is here.

Rajeev dubey ,

Excellent comment on Omar khalidis stated truth. On which side is outlook? truth or something else

First thing Muhammad did on returning to Mecca from Madina in 728AD was to break the existing place of worship and IDOLS at Mecca. KHALIDI may argue that it was with the consent of the inhabitants of Mecca, after the peaceful capture of Mecca by Muhammad. But MECCA was not the place of worship of the inhabitants of MECCA alone but of many "nomadic tribes of ARABIA". HAJ like pilgrimage to MECCA was performed by these tribes even before ISLAM. So how was that destruction justified to the "vast majority of nomadic tribes" who lived outside Mecca??? These "nomadic tribes" were subjugated by wars fought by Muhammad after capture of Mecca and so evidently these tribes did not support destruction of their place of worship.

If IDOL worship was so abhorrent why was the IDOLS not destroyed from 711AD- when Muhammad commenced get revelations from God, till Muhammad's escape to Madina in 722AD?? Why did Muhammad wait till his triumphant return from MADINA after his famous military victories while at Madina??? Evidently he would have been killed had he done it.

Akil,

>> If IDOL worship was so abhorrent why was the IDOLS not destroyed from 711AD- when Muhammad commenced get revelations from God, till Muhammad's escape to Madina in 722AD??

Why don't you take your questions to some religious website which would have mullahs as stupid as yourself to have a learned discussion with you, or better still take your questions to a Jewish rabbi, since smashing of idols started with Abraham. This article is about ASI which has not not done any digging in Mecca.

"This article is about ASI"

ANWAAR,

That is your perception. What OMAR KHALIDI has written is an effort blame ASI for raking up the "temple demolition and IDOL breaking" by Muslim Rulers in India. Non existence of any temples older than 1700's in the gangetic plain dominated by Muslim rulers while existence of many temples more than 1000 years old in South India substantiate it.

I was quite angry with the Outlook editorial for publishing this very biased article, at best an unabashed attempt in distortion, by a person like Omar Khalidi whose credentials as described as a "scholar" and "staff member of MIT" are quite disputable ...

However, when one reads Koenrad Elst counterpoint "Eminent Historians" published just above Khalidi's, one would probably forgive Outlook ... but not the likes of Romilla Thapar and Irfan Habib, the known Hindu-bashers and distortionist Marxist "historians" ... they could already be part of the signature campaign to intimidate the Supreme Court into annulling the Allahabad verdict along with some politically (Muslim vote bank) motivated pseudo-secularists ...

"What Justice Sharma was referring to was the ASI’s report of 2003 on Ayodhya of dubious value. What the ASI claimed to be the bases of pillars which held up the alleged temple turn out not to be pillar bases at all."

--- why? because Khalidi says so?

The Siva shrine at a lower level adds no strength to the claim of a Ram temple.

--- why? Shiva-Vishnu temples are very common. So whats the issue with finding a Shiva shrine in the compound? Visit any temple and you'll find that along with the presiding deity there are normally other deities as well!

The terracotta from different levels has been so jumbled up that it can be linked to no particular stratum and period. Moreover, the presence of animal bones and glazed ware found at the site makes it difficult to claim that a Ram temple existed on this site between the XII and XVI centuries.

--- why? what has the animal bones got to do with this?

"This spurious theory of Muslim rulers building over “Hindu” structures has certainly gained ground."

--- spurious? this is a well recorded fact of history including by the muslim rulers themselves! This statement alone has proved to me that Khalidi is a bigot in the garb of an intellectual!

And as per Khalidis' claims that "The ASI’s methods serve to perpetuate the Hindutva groups’ myth of Muslim depredation of Indian heritage" and "The ASI and the official tourism bureaus’ characterization of Indian archaeological sites as the foci of Muslim vandalism reinforces what was learnt through biased textbooks", let's start with the very first structure and mosque that Muslim rulers built in India ...

The Qutb Minar and Quwwatu'l (might of) Islam mosque are situated in the Mehrauli area of South Delhi and built among the ruins of Lal Kot (red fortress). The Lal Kot whose remnants can still be seen was the seat of Tomar and Chauhan rulers of Dhillika (old name of Delhi) in early 12th century. Its construction as a watch tower was commenced by the Chauhans. That its lower 3 stories have distinct Hindu/Jain origins despite Quranic engravings is further proven by an unusual for a Muslim structure engraving in Sankrit "Shri Vishwakarma prasade rachita" (conceived with the grace of Vishwakarma – the Hindu deity of builders).

The claim that Qutb Minar was built by the first Sultan of Delhi Qutb-ud-din Eibak can be disputed on various grounds. First, Qutb in arabic means a pole or a tower and also that a magnetic compass is called Qutb-numa. Ancient Hindus were eminent astronomers and they could have started to build a tall tower to serve two purposes – watch an advancing enemy and study the movement of celestial bodies and their influence over Earth, its climate and inhabitants. Second, Mihiravali in Sanskrit is a collection of stars. So, it is quite possible that a space observatory was operational in these parts before Islamic invasion.

Third, even a cursory look at the columns of Quwwatu'l Islam would reveal their Hindu/Jain architecture with carvings of human forms, gods and goddesses, flora and fauna, jewellery and other motifs expressly forbidden in Islam.

And last but not the least, what an Ashoka Iron pillar doing there in the middle of the court yard ?

Is it not clear that there were two ways of consolidating power - militarily and theocratically. Once the immediate military aims were achieved, Qutb-ud-Din set about to establish himself not just as a marauding invader, but a proselytizing missionary destroyimg temples.

But, if one goes by Khalidi, ASI has no role to play here ...

Now, come to the claim on the location of Rani Padmini’s jauhar (self immolation) in Chittorgarh. Is it not a recorded history by Muslim calligraphers themselves that Alauddin Khilji, unable to subjugate the Rajputs of Mewar and having heard of Padmini’s beauty besieged the impregnable Chittor fort with his massive army ? Rajputs had no choice but to open the gates and fight to finish. The Rani with all women of Chittorgarh to save their honour jumped into the fire and committed Jauhar which is folklore not just in Rajasthan but all over India.

The Hindi poet, Malik Mohd Jayasi, a muslim, immortalised this story of bravery, honour and sacrifice in his epic Padmavat, but to Khalidi and his ilk it is a myth invented by ASI – like they despise all Hindu epics …

More to follow (for the discerning ) on other Khalidi claims …

Outlook, You should think twice about providing a platform for biased articles like these. He seems extremely uninformed about the ASI as well the exact nature of the 2003 report used by the High Court. All shades of opinion are welcome but ignorance along with bias? Isn't there something about whipping up communal disharmony in the Constitution or has your editorial board lost all sense of discretion?

Contrarian, excellent as always. I've always wondered why it is modern Indians feel some kind of obligation to acknowledge the (non) contributions of these horrible tyrants like Qutubdin Aibak. Aibak was almost as bad as Mahmud and Aurangazeb. The invader had no fondness for India, the Indian people, the Indian culture or history. They were here to loot, vandalise, destroy and impose. It's the grotesque immaturity or fanaticism of large sections of Moslems, including educated ones like Jinnah, that causes them to identify with these brutes, and take offense when these criminals' misdeeds are called for what they are.

The truth hurts Mr Khalidi, but one is better off facing it than evading because it hurts even more when it hits later.

****
If IDOL worship was so abhorrent why was the IDOLS not destroyed from 711AD- when Muhammad commenced get revelations from God, till Muhammad's escape to Madina in 722AD??
****

because he was treated as a nutcase at that time(he really is). But when he broke the idols he won a military victory. But as Anwaar said idolatory is abhorred in all Abrahamic religions.

he..he..Selvan,

>> because he was treated as a nutcase at that time(he really is).

Only an ill-bred moron would say that.

he..he..Selvan,

>> because he was treated as a nutcase at that time(he really is).

Only an ill-bred moron would say that.

Omar Khalidi is behaving like sore loser and venting his frustration on ASI for bringing out 'truth'. Dont understand the Muslim unwillingness to accept the bitter fact that the barbarians islamic invaders destroyed virtually every temple they came across and there are scores of testimony to this from Muslim historians themselves to this effect. The technical rebuttal to his arguments will have to be done by experts but the facts remain evacations on site was carried by ASI on directions and supervisions of high court. Anyways facts do not change on ground and further evacations would only reinforce what ASI has concluded.

this same garbage by khalidi is on the tehelka website. After the HC judgement, the secular media is running for cover because their false propaganda stands exposed. Now they are giving prominence to all secular scoundrels like romila, rajeev dhawan etc. this khalidi is a known rascal. wonder what critreia mit follows when it gives jobs to such crackpots like khalidi

There are fascist among the Hindus also. But none of them can ever come close to the likes of Omar Khalidis, Zakir Naik et all. The civilized world, especially the civilized Muslims should just ignore these blind, superstitious people with 7th century mentalities.

Deposition of Suraj Bhan, one of the key critics of the ASI report, in the case. See how he gets taken apart and ripped to pieces


"Wall no. 23 is visible only partially. Probably it may have been in north-south. The wall no. 25 is eastwards in
north-south direction. This wall is in trench J-6. I can not tell at the spur of moment without knowing the context, as to whether the wall no. 25 is of the Gupta period. However, I do not have any objection in ASI terming it to be of the Gupta period. Whether the wall no.26 is older than wall no.25 or not, is not clear only from perusal of this figure.
However, it is possible that this wall is earlier to wall
no.25, because I had seen wall of earlier period over
there in the trench. ASI has shown it to be of Kushana
period, and I have no objection in it"

"“The wall no.28 is in trench J-3. It is so mentioned in
the report that this concrete stone wall is of the Shunga
period. I have no objection about such period
calculation"

"This terracotta is not associated with the structures of the Sultanate period prior to the Babri masjid"

"It is correct to say that several remains associated with
Hinduism have been discovered from the excavations of
particular strata of Ayodhya"

"Whatever has been shown by the excavators, was definitely present in the excavation i.e. that portion appears to be in-situ"

"I agree with the report of ASI about the remains of
temple, to the extent that these remains may have been
of some temple"

"I have no objection regarding the period
calculation of structures and walls except for the period
calculation made in respect of structures subsequent to
period 6 & 7"

"According to this plan, remains of 28 walls have been found in the excavation. I have already stated that during the excavation I had gone there on only three days"

"The ASI has shown 50 alleged pillar bases in
this plan. . . . . . Since I had not seen all these alleged
pillar bases on the spot and had seen only few, as such it
is not possible for me to verify them"

"It is true that glazed ware & glazed tiles were being
made in India even prior to the Sultanate period, but they
were very less in number and different from the glazed
ware & tiles of the Sultanate and Mughal period.”

"I am unable to dispute the period given by ASI, because I have not seen the evidence related to it. … From perusal of these plates it appears that successive constructional activity must have existed at the disputed site, if their dates are correct"

Statement of D Mandal, appearing for the Muslim parties:

"I do not think that during my stay, the
archaeologists had built any pillar etc. In my presence,
nothing took place such as the said archaeologists
building something secretly or forcibly. During the
excavation, I had seen that the articles found in
excavation were separated"

"On basis of the A.S.I. Report and my own spot
inspection, I have arrived at the conclusion that large
scale structural activities were carried out at the disputed
site during the Kushana period and Gupta
period"

""In my view, this circular shrine would be of the
Gupta period"

"Birbal Sahni Institute is a recognised institution
of Carbon-Dating. I agree with the period of NBPW given
by A.S.I. in its report as Period-1 from 6th BC to 3rd BC"

"A decorated stone has been fixed in Wall No. 17.
This decorated stone is floral motif. It is used in Hindu
temples. Wall No. 17 is of the Gupta period. It is of the
period between 4th to 6th AD"

"I agree with the layer 5A mentioned in A.S.I. Report.
It is non-Islamic structure. A 'Parnala' (gargoyle) is
possibly not there in Stupa. Then stated that I do not have
knowledge of the fact whether there is a 'Parnala'
(gargoyle) or not in a Stupa"

"As an archaeologist, I admit discovery of
structures beneath the disputed structure during
excavation"

Statement of Jaya Menon, appearing for the Muslim parties:

"According to me walls and structures prior to 12th
century were found in excavation but no floor prior to
12th century was found at the site. According to me the
oldest wall found in excavation was of first to third
century AD and the oldest structure found would be
structure 5 which may be of 6th century AD"

"agree with the observation of Prof. H.C.
Bharadwaj at page 73 of his article that gypsum
mortar/plaster was used in the Harappan period. I agree
with the observation in the latter part of this para that
gypsum was used as mortar in the Kalibangan period
also. . . . . .Lime mortar was definitely used from Neolithic period"

It becomes painfully clear that all these turds masquerading as experts on archaeology and history in newspapers and magazines suddenly develop cold feet when they have to back up their assertions with evidence in a court. These charlatans derive their legitimacy by publishing third class articles in a magazine published by a man whose journalistic zenith comprised publishing pictures of naked women but put them up against a person with half a brain and they run yelping to their mommies. The High Court has done a seminal service to Indian academia by exposing these frauds for the filth they are and ensuring that they won't be taken seriously outside their incestuous mutual love societies.

Dont you all think it's time we revisisted the 'history' written by 'eminent' historians Messrs, Sharma, Thapar, Hasan, Habib? If they have gone to this length to first subvert the truth from an accepted consensus that a temple predated the mosque to saying that no temple existed at all and it became a "hindu claim", how do we know that what's written in NCERT is based on actual fact and is not a political viewpoint?? As far Omar Khalidi, he is an Islamic Design Architect, why bother even perusing his opinion? It's like if Chetan Bhagat suddenly overnight tried to do a Salman Rushdie.

It's only in India where historical fact, science and procedure based thorough investigations are given lesser credence when compared to a political opinion.

Suraj Bhan's wonderland continued. This statement also shows the professional dishonesty of Irfan Habib:

"It is true that my conclusions and views on certain
issues are based on my knowledge existing prior to the
submission of ASI’s report in court"

"Consequent to submission of ASI’s report in the
matter and the claim that remains of temple were found at
the disputed site, I and Prof. Irfan Habib had given this
statement that remains of old mosque or Eidgah had been
found beneath the disputed site and not of any temple. If
this propaganda that remains of temple were found at the
disputed site, had not taken place, there would have been
no occasion for me and Prof. Irfan Habib to give the above
statement"

Is it not clear from the history all over the world that there are two ways of consolidating power - militarily and theocratically or morally. Once the immediate military aims are achieved, the conquerors set about to destroy the aesthetic beliefs and faiths of the conquered. Romans did it to Jews, Muslims did it to all the lands and people their warlords plundered or won, British tried it in India but failed, and the latest, Han Chinese invasion of Tibet and annihilation of Tibetan culture and identity.

Like his predecessors Qutb-ud-Din and Khiljis, the Mughal Babar, despised India and Hindus, their faiths and culture (Ref: Babarnama). Let’s have a look at the character of this man who has been credited – rather heroically by likes of Khalidi - with laying the foundations of Mughal empire in South Asia.

In his autobiography Babarnama, written by the man himself in Chagatai (an extinct Turkic language of Central Asia), which was later translated in Persian by one of Akbars' courts' nav-ratnas (9 jewels), Abdur Rahim Khan-e-Khana (who composed in Hindi too), Babar admits being a paedophile and wrote poems in love of a boy named Babri. The Babri Masjid in Ayodhya is said to be in memoir of Babar's love interest. He also had a great passion to kill people, cut heads of people and create pillars out of cut head. He claims to have created several such pillars.

Babar claims to be an orthodox Sunni Muslim and religion had a central place in his life, and even though homosexuality, mass genocide and use of alcohol/narcotics are Haram in Islam, he indulged heavily in all of them, as he approvingly quotes a line from Omar Khayyam, "I am drunk, friend. Punish me when I am sober." He also relates that one of his uncles "was addicted to vice and debauchery. He kept a lot of catamites (young boys in sexual relationship with a man). In his realm, wherever there was a comely, beardless youth, he did everything he could to turn him into one. During his time this vice was so widespread, that to keep catamites was considered a virtue."

Babar was also known to cough up blood, had numerous boils on his person, suffered from Sciatica (a disease of nervous pains) and also bled fluid from his ears. He was a heavy drinker and took hashish, perhaps as a means of alleviating the various illnesses he suffered from. Died when just 47 he gave up alcohol only 2 years before his death in AD1531 for health reasons, and demanded that his court do the same. But he did not stop chewing narcotic (opium etc.) and did not lose his sense of irony. He wrote “Everyone regrets drinking and swears an oath [of abstinence]; I swore the oath and regret that.”

However, it is believed that evening before his final decisive battle at Khanwua near Agra with Rajputs fighting under Rana Sangram Singh (Rana Sanga) of Mewar, he smashed his drinking cups vowing never to drink again - a vow he kept.

In Baburbani verses which are part of Guru Granth Saheb, Baba Nanak describes invasion of Babar’s invasion of Punjab and the brutalities that he eye witnessed first hand as translated in Englsish and excerpted here:

From Rag Asa, pg.360: “Having attacked Khorasan, Babar terrified Hindustan. The Creator Himself does not take the blame, but has sent the Mughal as the messenger of death. There was so much slaughter that the people screamed. O Creator Lord, You are the Master of all. If some powerful man strikes out against another man, then no one feels any grief in their mind. But if a powerful tiger attacks a flock of sheep and kills them, then its master must answer for it. This priceless country has been laid waste and defiled by dogs, and no one pays any attention to the dead.”

Rag Asa, pg. 417-418: “Those heads adorned with braided hair, with their parts painted with vermillion - those heads were shaved with scissors, and their throats were choked with dust. They lived in palatial mansions, but now, they cannot even sit near the palaces.

Since Babar's rule has been proclaimed, even the princes have no food to eat. The Muslims have lost their five times of daily prayer, and the Hindus have lost their worship as well. Without their sacred squares, how shall the Hindu women bathe and apply the frontal marks to their foreheads? They never remember their Lord as Ram, and now they cannot even chant Khuda. Millions of religious leaders failed to halt the invader, when they heard of the Emperor's invasion. He burned the rest-houses and the ancient temples; he cut the princes limb from limb, and cast them into the dust.

The Hindu women, the Muslim women, the Bhattis and the Rajputs - some had their robes torn away, from head to foot, while others came to dwell in the cremation ground. Their husbands did not return home - how did they pass their night?”

What other proofs does Khalidi and his ilk seek, or is Guru Granth Saheb myth too for them, that the Babri mosque in Ayodhya was not built atop a temple on the orders of a person of character like Babar?

The contrarian: good job. always go to the source. Trying to imagine Thapar et.al criticizing the Guru Granth Sahebe.
BTW; checking original sources should it not be a job requirement for Library Research Assistant at the MIT?
So muslims destroyed temples because that is where the wealth was, so that makes it ok i guess.
same logic for the 360 idols? nothing against idol worship but i want ur money.

Contrarian, excellent detail about Babur. Interestingly, Western historians( i.e British, American, and whoever else writes about the subject) almost totally ignore these very compromising details about Babur's life, including his cruelty, debauchery and perversion.

These historians focus on the alleged 'glory' of his conquests in India, and his generally negative description of the land and its people.

It's almost as if they are acting as a retroactive geo-political cheering squad, rather than as scholarly and dispassionate historians. Babur is seen by them as yet another of the great foreign conquerors( and of course the great conquerors include the British) who defeated native kingdoms like Rana Sangha's, and inaugurated a foreign regime. The ethical, moral, intellectual questions surrounding his behaviour, policies and achievements are conveniently ignored. Because if they were to raise those issues, that would call into question colonial and imperial policies that their own countries aggressively pursued. And as a corollary, it would then place the Indian people, not their rulers or conquerors, at the centre of history.

The Babur worshipping historians will have none of that.

Contrarian,

>> the Babri mosque in Ayodhya was not built atop a temple on the orders of a person of character like Babar.

A mosque is a mosque. Who built it is of no importance. I don't know much about his character, nor am I interested in it.

I read this article and thought "this cannot be real. MIT cannot have this kind of boneheaded faculty". Feels good to know that the author is an assistant librarian at MIT ( http://libguides.mit...&sid=1111745#3484806 ).

One is not surprised that Outlook is indulging in a fraud upon its readers by giving space to a fringe guy and trying to pass him off as some kind of authority by playing up his association with MIT.

"A mosque is a mosque. Who built it is of no importance. I don't know much about his character, nor am I interested in it."

If it is built atop a place where I have worshipped for time immemorial then it is of concern to me ... I will still worship there mosque or not ... like Hindus have the Ram Janma Bhumi ...

Contrarian, I draw your attention to the comments under the review of Raghav Bahl's book "Superpower".There is a very approving remark about Babur, by someone called "Eddie", from your country of residence, the UK. What do you make of Anglo-American laudatory remarks and citations of Babur, including his derogatory description of India as he found it then?

Do you think it is a question of fellow travellers, in this case fellow colonisers of India, praising one of their own?

What low quality article

What informative comments.

The comments here are truly blessed. Full of deep knowledge.