Wendy Doniger has this quote in the above interview: "about the Bhagawadgita (copy and paste does not seem to work) to the effect that only after the British who loved it translated it it has become a centraltext. How can this be - Shankara (Acharya) starting in 8th Century and all other Acharyas and many others later wrote extensive commentaries - long before Britain was even a political entity as we know of it now.

When the B'Gita starts with the words "Dharmakshetre Kurushetre  .." to simply saythat Ajuna did not want to kill his cousins (which is only a sub text) therefore it is war book does not carry any proffessorial erudition but a very narrow selective extraction and propagation - like describing the tail of an animal and presenting it as the whole animal

I found a FITTING RESPONSE: http://ow.ly/FTzq

Wendy Doniger is so full of Jewish-Abrahmic nonsense, it's not even funny.

This is what liberal, tolerant Hindus get as a reward for their general leniency towards blasphemy and idiocy.

Had she said something very remotely similar about Muhammed, well, you know.... Indeed, it is shocking to see Outlook carry such interviews and give this woman publicity. Sorry state of affairs. They could at least have thought of the impact on readers. I am a Hindu and am more than hurt at the unsubstantiated bull thrown at us by Doniger - am stunned.

Come to think of it, yopu cannot get equality with Muslims even IF you become a Muslim. You then face the iron fact that the religion cannot be freely criticised EVEN by Muslims: a small clique holds absolute right to decide what Islam is and to impose it by force on the rest.

This kind of ruthless Muslim elitism actually makes the Hindu Brahmins seem weak indeed.

Muslims, then, are the most Brahmanical of all. Hence the fallacy of their claiming to sympathise with "the suppressed classes".

Doniger and the other Western Indologists who attack today's more puritanical Hinduism lack a sense of humour.

On the one hand they claim there was no such thing as Hinduism until the British. Fair enough.

But then they say certain kinds of modern Hinduism they dislike are "copying from Christoianity and Inslam" and are not therefore "truly" Hindu, are at variance with Hindu traditions....

How can you have it both ways?

If there was no Hinduism unitil the last century and a half, there can be NO Hindu traditions. Everyone is free to make of Hinduism what they will. The Hindu nationalists are as free as the rest.

Also, it does seem VERY hostile to Islam and Christianity to forbid Hindus to copy them. Is Doniger then another Bal Thackeray?

What is Doniger's gripe?

Writing anything pervert on India in English language is very profit making business in West. Some Indians are also doing this business . My friend call these Indian writers white man`s nigger another friend call them international call girls.If you want fame and money in western countries easyly, write any thing prevert on India.This is well known fact that White people think themselves superior race and we some time forget that eugenics movemment is the roots of western culture has long and unsavory history with very deep roots in their psyche,they like to read downfall of Indians very testfully.I can advice who can write stylist English start to write something preverton India and can get fame and money easyly.

Momeen Rashid
Delhi, India

'Do you realise that Pakistan was also the result of a Hindu-British conspiracy'

Yes, I do, but it is no so simple,

Long before partition , in 1924 Madan Mohan Malvia and Lajpat Rai perceived the threat which may be posed to Brhamin hegemony in free India, if the supressed classes join hands with Muslims, as they did in the politics of pre-partition.

Secondly, the Muslim feudals were scared of the socialistic ideology of Nehru,so they proped up the Muslim League.

Last, but the least is the uncompromisisng attitude of the Brhamins in the congress.

AHMAD PASHA:

Do you realise that Pakistan was also the result of a Hindu-British conspiracy?

The person behind the Pakistan agitation: who was he? Jinnah (originally Jinnahbhai), whose grandparents were Gujarati banias. Pakistanis sneer at Gandhi as a mere bania, forgetting that Jinnah was one too.

So two Gujarati banias colluded with tactical British support to create Pakistan, with the great help of two Kashmiri Brahmins - Nehru and Mohammed Iqbal....How many Pakistanis realise their great "national poet" Iqbal had Brahmin grandparents?

Pakistan was devised - like the invention of "Hinduism" by the British in the Nineteenth Century - to break the power of the Mussalmans in the Subcontinent - to restore India to the Brahmins. It meant that the Mussalmans were fobbed off with two widely sepated areas of India, nearly all the worst bits too. Brahmins kept 75 per cent of India, in one piece.

What a conspiracy !!!!

AHMAD PASHA:

Thank God for the British. Their invention of Hinduism is the greatest of their mnany services to humanity.

Otherwise Hindus would be subjected to a religion invented in Seventh Century Arabia with tactical support from Meccan merchants.

Hinduism is a creation of Brahamins with tactical British support. A good reference is

History of Hindu Imperialism by Swami Dharma Theertha printed by Dalit Educational Center

The conquest of one sixth of humanity in India in the Nineteenth Century by a tiny, newly-invented religion called "Hinduism", all in a few years, is the most amazing expansion of a religion in history.

It makes the famed sudden expansion of Islam seem glacially slow by comparison.

Those Brahmins and their British puppet-masters were the most amazing folk in history......

Wow !!!!!

PRAKASH:

You are COMPLETELY wrong.

Doniger is TOTALLY right.

There was no Hinduism before British rule bin the Nineteenth Century - just a jungle of meaningless idolatrous cults.

The British patiently and heroically sifted through this colossal mess of customs and notions, drew some fundamental principles form the massive jumble, and put together what is called Hinduism.

So Hinduism is the world's YOUNGEST major faith, dating back only to the middle of the Nineteenth Century.

The British invented Hinduism every bit as much as they invented bully beef.

That is the truth.

Hindus should rejoice over following a purely British religion.

Is it not better to follow a religion invented by enlightened, liberal people like the British than by fanatical Seventh Century Arabs?

WTF!

Feminism is the new butcherer of Faith. Feminists butcher faith far more effeciently than the Jehadi who blows himself up to kill only about 20 people in a mosque. Feminists butcher faith far better than the Crusaders who kill African children because "thou shall not suffer a witch to live". The beauty of Feminism is that it is feted as moral advancement. This woman has insulted the memory of Sita for glory and money.

Maha,

>> people questioning wendy do not become so called Sanghies.

Seems you have forgotten what the argument was about. All I said was that the methods of protests used by Muslims and Hindus may be different, but the hypersensitivities are similar.

Anwar,

"I usually ignore all insults to Muhammed or to Isalm. If I reply, I do so without insulting Rama or Krishna. I did not say anything about methods not mattering. I said the methods may differ but the hypersensitvities are the same."

The people who responded against this story did not insult the islam as well. Some of them wondered why outlook does not dare to write about insulting articles about other religion. They are reacting similar to how you react ( e.g. while discussing some islamic terror attack, you invariably bring malegaon, sadhvi something that is completely unrelated with the story being discussed) That does not make you talibani. Similarly people questioning wendy do not become so called Sanghies.

I think Wendy would have been better placed to write a book on the relationship between Jesus and Mary Magdalen with all its intricacies - she probably know that language. Surprising that a Xtian should criticise Dharm.

In the genesis of Xtianism is the belief that Woman was created from one rib of man because he wanted company. Also the feminine is responsible for original sin. Divinity is largely masculine in Xtianity. Dharm on the contrary naturally accords the masculine and feminine equal status in divinity.

Coming from a faith which in its inception sees women as lesser - she attacks a perfect philosophy by attacking a human representation of that philosophy as it is easier to find faults with a human figure than a perfect philosophy. In this also she fails miserably.

1. >> Faced flak because I said things they didn’t LIKE <<

Not true. Here are some facts which prove Wendy’s reasoning is flawed.

2. >> Hinduism has changed specially after bhakti movement. <<

Not at all correct. Bhakhti movement was only a revival of old traditions when people forgot the essence of Hindu thought. Hinduism is essentially monotheism (one god) and the aim of life is to realize the truth and attain freedom from repeated birth and death. Out of the several methods to achieve this goal the easier, practical, efficient and popular is Bhakti to one supreme lord. The names and forms given to God are only to aid persons of different nature (gunas) to meditate on the form he likes. “ekam sat vipra bahuda vadanti” is the vedic saying.

The essence of Bhakti yoga (which is also called as "prapathi" is given as early as Threta Yuga by Hanuman when he said to Rama "let me have permanent devotion to you etc......(refer UTT Kand ch 40 slokas 16 -19). Again this is further elaborated as "Navadha Bhakti (9 fold devotion): hearing of god etc in Bhagavatam through instructions given by child Prahalada.

2. >> Rama was deified later and was not considered as god during his time. So many versions came later on to hide unpleasant episodes. <<<

Not so. If we accept that Valmiki Ramayana is the true story (like Wendy also has accepted) there are references aplenty in Valmiki Ramayana itself to indicate that Rama is the incarnation of the one god for the specific purpose of destroying evil (Ravana ) and to establish Dharma as he, in the later incarnation of Krishna says in Geetha "Yada yada hi dharmasys glanirbhavathi etc) refer Bala k. ch 15 sl 16 - 30 ch 16 sl.7 & 8 ch 76 sl 17 Ayodha K Sumitr consoling Kausalya ch 44 sl 15 & 16 Mandhodhari grief Yudha K ch 111 sl 11 -13 Brahma sthuti Yudh K ch 116 sl 13 -28 to cite a few.
The many versions are different creations of gifted poets and not to hide unpleasant episodes.

3. >> There were no temples in ancient days.<<

Not true. Temples were there but might not have been as big as we see today in Madurai, Srirangam, Puri etc. Refer Ayodhya K ch 71 sl 40 & 42 the words used are "devaagaarni" and "devaayatanachityeshu". These definitely mean temples.

4. >> Seetha was thrown out in the forest because Rama feared that he may become sex-addict. He was drinking and enjoying. <<

Not so. This is the most perverted interpretation of the slokas. The words appearing in this context ( Uttara K, ch 42) sl 19 are " madhu" and "payayamasa". That means Rama gave honey to Seetha and made her drink it. Seetha was at that time pregnant and he saw the symptoms of divine glow or halo. (Valmiki uses words "kalyanena samanvitam"). Honey is considered as the best tonic and medicine too for a few disorders.

Moreover it is customary to fulfill the desires of pregnant ladies so Rama asks Seetha: "what do you desire? What can I do for you? You are now carrying our baby." To this Seetha replies I want to see hermitages of great sages on the bank of Ganges and stay at their feet.. Rama assures her that this will be done.
Again he tells his brothers that he is fearing scandals and bad rumors (words used here are "apavadat beetha").

So for this twin reasons he sends Seetha to the forest and he himself chose the hermitage of Vaalmiki for her stay. He instructed Lakshmana to leave her near his hermitage. (Utt K ch 45)

5. >> birth and origin of Valmiki not known <<
Valmiki was in the fifth line from "Prachedas i.e. Varuna). There are references. Moreover he was already established as a great sage with many disciples at that time.

6. >> Erotic sculptures in temples. <<

Our temples have an abundance of sculptures to attract children, old peoples and youth. A detailed look at these sculptures will indicate that generally there grouped in 3 tiers - lowest tier is allotted to figures of animals birds, flowers etc so as to educate children about nature. The middle tier will be of Yogis or depicting war scenes and Apsara etc to indicate to the householder about impediments to meditation and spiritual life temptations etc telling indirectly that he should overcome all these. The third and topmost tier will be having the so called erotic sculptures to attract youth. Dharma Artha and Kama are also taken in scriptures as "purusharthas”) but Kama should not at any time be against principles of Dharma .

Maha,

>> I have seen you reacting strongly when someone insulted islam or Mohammad on this forum. That does not make you Talibani or Islamists. So the method does matter.

I usually ignore all insults to Muhammed or to Isalm. If I reply, I do so without insulting Rama or Krishna. I did not say anything about methods not mattering. I said the methods may differ but the hypersensitvities are the same.

Gayatri/Lalit,

Sorry to hear of your problems with banks and lawyers. If I had the Seshadri mentality, I would have said you were being punished for your hate-prachar, but I will not say that. Instead I wish you the best of luck and hope your difficulties are soon resolved.

AHMAD PASHA:

A good source for the endless disputes as to which Koran is valid is the book "The Origins of the Koran", edited by Ibn Warraq (Prometheus Books, 1998).

As for the Ramayana, whether it is mythology or not, the point that needs to be remembered is that Israeli archaelogy has established that the Old Testament has no valid historical basis. Since Christianity and Islam are derived from Judaism, they too are affected crucially by that finding, and lose historical validity.

All the major religions are mythology. Hinduism is only one among many.

It is a pleasure to meet guys like Pasha, even if they are not Muslim.

AHMAD PASHA:

Of course I want to sow doubt.

Civilization depends on doubt.

Very sinister that is, no?

Momeen Rashid
Delhi, India

'Even the Koran exists in disputed versions. Indeed, Mohammed's secretary disowned the existing Korans as invalid.'

Do you have a reference, or you just want to sow doubt? We know already you are not a Muslim, you are using this Muslim name for sinister design.

'Valmiki Ramayan is the standard for Ramayan'

Out of the hundreds of versions, why select this one? Does it meets the standards of being called authnetic?

Authenticity of Scriptures.
The structure of the book should be a unitary compilation, not a cut and paste from earlier sources, not a layered composition and should not have undergone significant redaction or glosses in an evolutionary development. The book should meet the criteria of provenance. Can the book be attributed to the person who received the revelation? What is the time lag between revelation and first compilation? Is there any other version of the book and historical assurance that the original revelation was accurately and completely preserved?

Thus, to the Keralites, Christ appears as the herder not of meek and mild sheep as the Bible intended, but of mischievous and pesky and aggressive goats!

Gayatri Baba:

The joke about translating "lambs" as "kunngaddukallu" is that this Malayalam word refers to young goats ! There are plenty of goats but few sheep in Kerala.

Gayatri Baba:

I am sorry to hear you have problems. Is it with the banks? I wish you all the luck. You are a great chap, full of humour and sense.

As for Malayalam prayers and church songs .....I have to be fair to the Christians. They do conduct their worship in Malayalam and the Bible does translate into Malayalam very powerfully.

There are very beautiful Malayalam Christian hymns. I imagine the situation is the same in Tamil, but I am a Malayali (Keralite) and not knowledgeable about Tamil.

I'll give you an example of how beautifully the Bible translates into Malayalam.

You must know Jesus' Sermon on the Mount. It has these lines,

" The birds of the air
Neither reap nor sow"

In Malayalam, these lines are:

" Aagashathiley kuruvikal

Kuzhikunnilla

Koyyunnilla...."


This has a sweet melodic Indian tune. Because Malayalam is so close to Sanskrit, Sanskrit words appear in it in their full euphonious forms, not in the shortened and to my ears rather ugly way they come across in Urdu or Hindi. For instance, sky is "aagasam" in Malayalam as in Sanskrit. In Hindi this is shortened to the ugly "aakash".

On the other hand, the pervasive Biblical habit to referring to Christians as lambs comes across rather comically in Malayalam: kunngaddukallu....Kerala has few sheep unlike in the Middle East and the West, and the image of Christ as a shepherd baffles the Keralites.

A little discourse on Malayalam to cheer you up !

When I hear Muslims boasting about the beauty of Urdu I laugh......What do they know of Malayalam !!!

I was wondering - does this kind of publication fit in with the Congress definition of Secularism? Why was a true film on Nehru-Edwina banned when the fictitious ravings of a madwoman published? Is Nehru more sacred to India than the Ethos and Culture that has been with it for millenia before Christ the Jew came to India to learn Yoga?

rashid

it seems that every one loves white jesus,blonde hair,
blue eyes and a sweet smile.

do the malyalis, tamil christians sing in their own
language or is it in english.

i would be interested to hear " the lord is my shepherd" in malyali- i really need to have a laugh.

haveing lots of problems-

The noble land of India, with its fine forests, incomparably beautiful wildlife, and scenic grandeur, deserves much better than the cowardly, mean, imitative, slave-minded human hordes who have wrecked it. With Hindus imitating Westerners and Muslims aping arabs, I feel profoundly weary. We do not have a smidgen of dignity and self-respect. Maybe the Chinese will be better off here.

Gayatri Baba:

What do you say, Baba?

Really, Indians are a huge disappointment and waste of time. I feel very tired of them sometimes.

Maybe it would be best for the Chinese to take us over and sort us out?

Gayatri ?Lalit:

It is not only Jesus who is shown as white in South Indian churches.

In Kerala school books teaching English, the (Indian) children are shown as pink in complexion, with reddish cheeks. They eat apples, not mangoes, and use knives and forks.

Really, the more I think of Indians, the more I conclude that there is a slave gene in them. The Hindus ape the Westerners and the Muslims ape Arabs. Neither wishes to be Indian.

rashid

there are few hindus in denmark.

they are never talked about- our fault.

we could get noticed if we were to demonstrate on streets, or have gangs like the arabs who terrorise
the city of copenhagen.

we are like that only.

One swallow does not make a summer.
One Wendyana interpretation does not mean all is fine.

Here Associate Prof Ramdas Lambs web site , who was a monk in India for some time , a true sadhak.

http://www.hawaii.edu/religion/lamb.html
http://www.hawaii.edu/religion/cvs/lamb.pdf

The you have Associate Prof Ed Bryant who is very balanced , a scholar always seeking the truth , a true sadhak

http://www.rci.rutgers.edu/~edbryant/about.html

Is there any standard and authentic version of Hindu scriptures against whch her writings can be compared?
ahmad pasha

Pl. refer to earlier posts before you put this query.
Valmiki Ramayan is the standard for Ramayan.

Rational discussion gives way to emotionally charged challenges., and will divert discussion to the mystical and intangiable.

Intellectuals always cross the currents of cultural conventions, demanding anwsers to well conceived questions and satisfactory explanation of the history of revelation and man.

Gayatri/Lalit:

You must be chuckling at how easily I knock out our old friend and enemy Old Chimp/ Old Mac/ Augustus...

He is so badly whipped that he takes refuge behind some Outlook India rule ! Like a beaten boxer who whines, "I do have a knockout blow but decided not to use it...."

Hah hah ha......

Going on to your question about how Jesus is depicted in South India churches: as far as I know, he is shown as a blond, blue-eyed white man. Not surprising. This is the place where they sing "I'm Dreamin' of a White Christmas, Like All the Ones I used to Know" in the 100 degree heat of Madras.....

Are there many Hindus in Denmark? How do they get on?

>>Well, who decides so arbitrarily what is the scope of this thread?

Mostly, our host who pays for this forum...

>>That it is within its scope to say the Ramayana is mythological

issue raised in the article...

>>but suddenly outside its scope to point out that so is the Bible and the Koran, its presumed rivals?

I posted a note remediating the knowledge gap in how historicity is established as it relates to people....our hosts deleted it....fair enough...its their rupee, their rule

>>What a pathetic, comical surrender !!!!

I surrender to you like Muhammad Ali might surrender to a malnourished six year old girl with Rickets from sub-Saharan Africa.

>>Like a man beaten at boxing who saves face by saying the knockput blow is invalid by some private rule of his own.

My boxing analogy above speaks for itself!

>>You have been completely checkmated, hill- billy.

If such delusions let you slumber today...be my guest!

rashid

jesus in danish churches is blonde,fair and with blue
eyes- the reason may be that europeans would find a
dark,snub nosed ,curly headed jesus to be less attractive. perhaps unacceeptable.

i wonder how jesus looks in indian churches-

would he look like a tamil, bihari, or like the nagas.

just a question.

knockout, i meant, below

AHMED PASHA:

It is not a matter of some final Hindutext or other.

Even the Koran exists in disputed versions. Indeed, Mohammed's secretary disowned the existing Korans as invalid.

The problem with Doniger is that she goes all out to say the Ramayana is mythology.

But the point is that Judaism, Christianity and Islam are ALSO mythology. So why pick on the Hindus?

When supposed scholars like Doniger cannot afford to be fair, what they are really saying is that Hindus have won the argument. Their own activity then becomes mere propaganda and money-spinning.

One only has a case of one is fair.

Why so much of fuss about this author and her book?

Is there any standard and authentic version of Hindu scriptures against whch her writings can be compared?

Augustus AAA, Sheela Reddy et al have only agenda. And that is to mount vile abuse and insult on Hindus and Hinduism.

Particularly this Augustus chap is a thoroughly disgusting character full of hatred and vitriol. He/she is using this forum to promote an organized hate-Hindu camapign.

BOWENPALLE VENURAJA GOPAL RAO
Well written. the best so far in the forum. Post 283 in the forum is a very good analysis. Keep it up.

>>>>bowenpalle venuraja gopal rao

Thank you for the new knowledge.

Request you to take up with Outlook for Wendy's reply on your objections.Wendy owes a reply to us for her mischief.
sandilya
Chennai, India<<<

Thanks! Prof. Shesahdri ji also suggested the same.

I believe that it may not be useful. Wendy can not fight with truth, however clever she might be in perverting the texts.
Book 2 (Bala kanda) has only 24 sargas. How can she quote from non-existent 47th sarga????

She refers to Swami Vivekananda as someone who took "philosophical" aspects of Hinduism and Americans loved that aspect of Hinduism. She, it seems, or implies that "otherwise" Americans or British could have shown hatred or rejected Hinduism-(if not for its strong logical, philosophical aspects).

First, Swami Vivekananda.
Swami Vivekananda took crude Hinduism to the West, that fact nobody can change. His speeches do not even touch so called scientific aspect of religion polluted by westerns or western aspects of Hinduism or Hinduism as western philosophers see it.

Anyone can read his lecture "My Master" which he gave at somewhere in California, if I remember it correctly.
Swami Vivekananda said according to a Christian missionary of the time (who recorded his experiences with Vivekananda when a news paper "Abhinava Baharata" collected, only "direct experiences with Vivekananda " of any person anywhere in the world) that, according to this white foreign missionary first Vivekananda questioned him as to what purpose he came to India in a challenging voice and then said that,

"that foreigners should NOT try to teach Vedanta to Indians. They should come here (India) to learn it".

bowenpalle venuraja gopal rao

Thank you for the new knowledge.

Request you to take up with Outlook for Wendy's reply on your objections.Wendy owes a reply to us for her mischief.

>>>>Is it in Valmiki’s version that Rama thinks his father, Dasaratha, is a sex-addict?

Lakshman is the one who actually says it. He says the king is hopelessly attached to sensual objects. But Rama himself says (at 2.47.8) that the king is kama-atma, entirely consumed by kama.<<<<<

I somehow overlooked the number 2.47.8 as, it seems , many others as well in this forum overlooked it.

The number is 2.47.8 which Doniger quotes !!!!
What a blatant lie !!
The number 2 tells us this is from 2nd Kanda (book) and number 47 tells us this is 47 sarga (chapter) and 8th shloka.
The important point is there is no 47th sarga in Ayodhya kanda. Simply it does not exist and she quotes !!
Let us assume, that for example some one tenacious puts out an argument for 47th sarga irrespective of Khanda, then that comes in Yuddha Kanda (Book of war), definitely nothing to do with her allegations nor that shloka deals with it.

when you go to do an interview the simple to rule follow is to:
1)Do not try to learn from the person who you are interviewing.
2) That you are responsible for the readers and not for the person giving the interview.
3) cross-check the anecdotes, prepare yourself before you go.

If you try to learn from the person you are interviewing, he/she notices it, and takes the journalist for a ride. Wendy Donger had a royal ride.
I was a journalist for some years in my life, so I know what I am writing.

The Puritanism, making Rama an avatar, making him a God much before, HE , Rama himself realized it was obviously wrong and these parts were rejected by Sanskrit Scholars.
Thus first 4 chapters of Bala Kanda, thus , were rejected as parts of Valmki Ramayana and scholars reject it upto 5 sargas . From 6th sarga onwards ,Valmiki’s language, grammer, his “hand writing” so to say is very clear.

So also entire “Uttarakhanda “ which was actually a different fiction written by much later by authors and which was actually known as "Uttra Rama Charitha"

Rama's journey ( RAMAYANA) , AYANA means journey, ended when Rama was reminded of his past birth by Gods,. including Yam raja (god of death) and Lord Shiva.
There was no more story ,only coronation of Rama and his administration called "RAMA RAJYA" .

If you take the most popular version of RAMAYANA in north India known as "SRI RAMACHARITHA MANAS" , this book also ends with Yuddha Kanda and later coronation of Rama.
Tulisdas ,author of “Sri Ramacharitha Manas” belongs to Bhakthi movement, it was a cult, and he was born during the rule of AKBAR the great.
He was a devotee of Sri Rama ,completely attached to his one God Rama though it seems he wrote a book on Krishna also. Even then he did not name his book as "RAMAYANA" and did not corrupt the original one, Valmiki Ramayana.

Only big difference is that in Tulsidas “Ramacharitha Manas” , Rama is God, Sita Goddess Laxmi, and hence, the only Sita's shadow was "stolen" by Rakshasha king Ravana. A devotee’s heart and imagination is quote different, he was not Valmki and Tulsidas did not write an epic. In his own words ,he has prayed ,shown his Bakthi , that is, he wrote a prayer like story wonderful for chanting and for devotion.

So was the most popular Kamba in south India.
This book "RAMAVATAR" also ends with coronation of Rama. Kamban quotes the name of his benefactor for every 1000 verses. Probably he wrote for his benefactor ,though nobody can mistake ,find fault with his devotion to Rama, he also belonged to Bhakthi cult.

The mention of much recent history like appearance of Greeks, Parthians,Shaktas etc., and the use of language or diction, made the scholars reject "Uttarakhanda" as some people called the actual "Uttara Ramayana" and they do not recognise it as part of Valmiki Ramayana.

In this part called "Uttara Ramayana" , (author Bhavabhuti was one great dramatist, poet, who wrote it )
Sita was sent back to forests when she was pregnant, she gave birth to twins(in the forest), and they fight with Rama.
Rama makes a golden idol of Sita and performed sacrifices etc., refusing to re-marry after Sita was sent to forest.

BhavaBhuti ,poet, belonged to Kannauj ,that it was fiction was stated by BhavaBhuti himself ,in his famous drama "uttara rama charitha"
The author (BHAVA BHUTI) belonged 1st cent. A.D.
explains in the book , that he took the characters from Valmiki's Ramayana .
Bhavabhuti, belonged to a Brahmin family patronized by king Yashovarman as one of his famous poets. You can assume that he might have very well, written at the instance of Yashovarman.
This so called sanskrit scholar Wendy Doniger did not know any other language of India, which she herself says and probably she did not even read translations of either Tulsidas or Kamban or Molla Ramayana in Telugu.
It is even doubtful, if at all, she was aware of Bhavabhuti, who no Sanskrit scholar can possibly ignore.

S_G:>>"How many Saatvic readers of Outlook do you know? How many Saatvic writers does Outlook or the national Indian media has?"

Good point. I get some appreciations only from varun of toronto and Dip of dacca. Most others are nuetral. Anwaar always hostile only. Vivek charreji chatters only devilry.

But, as Gita says, do your good work without expecting rewards, I continue to make some points, as old fools are used to, I suppose!..

A_P:>>"A really weired explanation. Is it a fact or a creation of your imagination?"

this whole matter, with texts from valmiki ramayana has been discussed and explained over an yr ago.

the kind of question you ask makes me wonder if you are only anwaar in a new avtar. please undestand such behaviour will not only affect your posting rights, but might terminate your existence itself. the powers of the absolute to save His devouts from insults are really infinite, whether you believe or not.

the assumptions of churchfolk and mullas that plants and animals have been created only to serve humans and demons in their greed and gluttony is incorrect. civilizns which destroy forests and animals for the shelter and food excess-demands of humans will soon get wiped out by ecological adversities.

the aarya-vatra sapta-sindhu civilizn has survived over ten millennia, only bec of traditions of respect for plants, trees and animals. Siva is known as paSupati, protector of animal kind. Vishnu as Gopala, cow-fond lord. Skanda fond of birds, GaNeSa of rats. Cosmomom seen as riding on lion. Jesus = skanda, also seen as the 'divine shepherd' only. vasishTa could not be defeated by koushika [later viSwaamitra], bec of the cow he was nurturing invoked the divine forces to defend him!. you should understand the mercy-lord divine is more sensitive to the silent prayers of animals, birds and plants, than even the mantra-chanting rishi-type Bs.

after pooja each day, the B-fool that I am, I do water plants and feed birds, before eating my own lunch, a process known as 'vaiSwa-deva', seeing God in all beings of the universe. In my grandpa's days, he would have personally fed a house-fond cow also, before eating! these days, cows are in sheds, mechanically milked and later killed for beef for the demon-kind. kids do not even know that the milk they drink comes from cows!.

Civilizns kind to plants and animals will live long, bec of the silent souls in them blessing them and God agreeing. Evilizns ill-treating forests and animals and the tribals living there will be short-lived like the romans’ and egyptians’, despite skyscraper housing and skyflying planes. Humility is the first need on humanity, to survive as civilizn on mom-earth. .

The above explanation will make you understand the point I made about the queens humbly spending a night in the horse-shed . Only those who know humility as the only path towards divinity [obama seems to know this, unlike your friend Osama!] will also understand and achieve eternality, as civilizns on earth and as god-entuned souls in after-life. Arrogant demons like you will only get locked up into the core of Saturn, along with your prince of darkness, already there, waiting for you and Osama to join him there..

V.Sheshadri

'the horse left in the same shed with the queens could have been expected to 'sense' the feelings of the queens, intensively desirous of getting sons.'

Why the queens were made to sleep in stable? as a sort of punishment or to bring them in to heat?

A really weired explanation. Is it a fact or a creation of your imagination?

Sesh,

Even though Raam denied that he was avtar, said he was only the 'human' son of dasaratha - he lets the cat out of the bag occassionally - example - when he gave moksha to Jataayu! Swami Koorathazhwaan exploits these beautifully in his conversation with Kanchi Devaperumal.

Coming to MKs and Donigers - Human's that are highly invested in Rajasic and Tamasic food habits cannot understand the Divine - however intellectual their arguments may sound. Such arguments will only remain "kudarkam". That is why mumukshus prefer to listen to their own acharayaas and refrain from indulging in rewardless, and wasted arguments with such (Rajasic and Tamasic) individuals. How many Saatvic readers of Outlook do you know? How many Saatvic writers does Outlook or the national Indian media has? Sattva= truth, supreme knowledge. Rajas and Tamas - manipulated, distorted versions of the truth will only come out!

Vivek chatterji's monstrous comments reg dasaratha's queens 'sleeping in the same shed as the horse' for aswamedha-yagjna [putra-kama-ishTi], seem to have been deleted, along with my own equally vindictive reply to him; justifiably so.

but, it is true that valmiki mentions this in ramayana. but it needs to be understood in a spirituo-scientific perspective. The word 'horse-sense' is commonly used in english also. high-maturiy animals, elephants, horses, cows, even dogs, have a sense for the intentions, feelings of the humans associated with them. Main reason why horse-mounted soldiers were very successful in wars, the mounts integrated with their riders' minds in executing the rapid movements reqd in their fights. Similarly, the horse left in the same shed with the queens could have been expected to 'sense' the feelings of the queens, intensively desirous of getting sons. Next day the foam of that horse's mouth [medha of the aSwa] was put into the yagjna fire as the last item [not the horse itself, please], expecting that the desires of the queens be conveyed to the divines invoked thro fire-god as the spiritual messenger to them. No wonder dhanvantari appeared out of the fire with a 'prasad' which, when taken by the queens, caused their pregnancy and baby-deliveries in due time. There is logical science behind spiritual techniques also. Nothing to be despised really, by any one..

Did the commentators read this book before putting their comments?
An excellent scholarly masterpiece authored by a non-Indian and non-Hindu.
Getting outraged by reading just one sentence about Sita, just shows our lack of accomodation.
Though I have lived 60 years in India, studied and worked with Hindus, but many a things in this book are quite new and surprising to me.
On page 671 of this book, she illustrates how people view Sita from their own prespective.Their are temples in Mharashtra dedicated to Sita alone, without Rama. One Sharad Joshi even used the local legend of Sita to bring social change and upliftment of women in the villages of Mharashtra. Some women hold her in reverence for obeying her husband and some for disobeying as in Uttar Pradesh.
She has written what many an Indians do not know, including the scholars and social workers.

On page 13 she gave a nice metaphor. Having a love for elephants does not make a person eligible to be head of the department of zoology, or to learn about elephants, you need not be an elephant.

This book is available in nearly all the branches of Queens library.

S_G:>>"even if you utter His name as "Raam" - with anger, to disprove his existence, with contempt, in order to convert Hindus to other religions by stating this this Raam is an idiot, sex-freak, whatever ugly things you can tell about Him - Just for having uttered His name - you have earned His blessings"

you have a valid point. the name of rama as 'man-tra' [mananaat traayate iti mantrah], was known to be even more potent that rama himself as a human avtar; raama himself could not defeat his own devotee, hanuman, chanting the rama mantra!. no wonder, both MK of dmk and ambika soni of congress have been fully re-empowered in governance, after the elections, after virulently denying ram as avtar.

raamaad naasti paro mantrah
[no other mantr more powerful than 'raama']
trishu lokeshu sarvadaa
[in the three worlds, for all times]
rameSo daivatam yasya
the divine invoked by the mantra is vishNu]
rishih saakshaat umeswarah!
[the recommender rishi for it is Siva Himself!]

but, then, rama himself denied that he was avtar, said he was only the 'human' son of dasaratha [aatmaanam maanusham manye, raamam daSarathaatmajam], to the divines who appeared to congratulate him on the killing of ravana; the main reason is that ravan had a boon specifically that only some human could kill him, no divine. no wonder that ravano-philes in TN insist that ram should have been only a petty human [as per ravan-boon]; they certainly cannot harmonize with fools worshiping ram as a God!

but then they are also keen to call their hate-object rama a drunkard in particular, altho the TN govt's main source of income is from tasmac shops selling liquor officially to wife-beater drunkards! We do live in a strange world! perhaps, they think it explains why ram sent sita to forest. wise man ganapathy might know the real reason.

From Valmiki Ramayan:
"Charitam Raghunaatasya shata koti pravistaram
ekaikam aksharam proktam mahaa paataka naasanam."

VR consists of 24000 verses (each thousand verse beginning with a character from Gayatri Mantra of 24 syllables). The verse above states however that the story of Raghunath (Ram) consists of 100 crore verses!

That is true - the version of Ramayan in Brahma's Satyaloka indeed consists of 100 crore verses. However, with deep compassion for human race on planet earth, Brahma appointed Valmiki to recreate the scripture. Why? because every "akshara" (character) of this scripture is capable of destroying "Mahaa Paataka" - massive misdeeds committed by the human being. May all those who participate in this discussion read at least a verse of this great scripture - even if with a desire to disprove Ram's historical existence as a human on earth - and benefit from His supreme compassion! Just uttering his name is a great prayer itself (Note: you dont have to be Hindu!). Shiva tells in Vishu Saharanama:
"Sri raama raama raameti rame raame manorame
saharanaama tattulyam raama naama varaanane"

Meaning - simply uttering the name of "Raam" is equivalent of having uttered His one thousand names!

Bretheren of other religions - welcome to Hinduism, and its supreme deity's unmatched compassion - even if you utter His name as "Raam" - with anger, to disprove his existence, with contempt, in order to convert Hindus to other religions by stating this this Raam is an idiot, sex-freak, whatever ugly things you can tell about Him - Just for having uttered His name - you have earned His blessings, Love Compassion etc. etc.

M:>>"The feeling of oneness with the Universe is called enlightenment. That why the sage of Upanishad says "Ahm Brahmasmi" (I am the Universe)."

right. 'aham bra'mh'a asmi', the correct statement.

>>"The Hindus are so scientific they don't even say 'One Universe" but Non Dual 'cause even one gives the idea of the second".

quite correct.

>>"Let the suppressing of ideas whether right or wrong happen with Vatican and Ulemas".

the chr, mosl and jews can also get their minds liberated to perennial philosophy in tune with full modern science, if:

the church emphasizes mainly the substance of jesus' 'sermon on the mount' as the main plank for morality, leaving the old and new testaments as old-folk tales.

the jews also should do the same, since jesus was born mainly to redeem judaism from the pharisees [bhaara-yajees, heavily ritualistic worshippers] and sadducees [SaTa-yaajees, deceiptful exploiters of people in worship, as priestocrats in all other religs also].

the mullahs can also make islam a hunanist religion, if they emphasize only the 'allah-the-merciful'-type suraas in the quran, with elaborations for them, from the wisdom of the sufi saints only.

Now, here is a vatic pronouncement:


Sheela Reddy And Gong In This Forum Are Happy With Wendy Doniger...Indulging In Every Way...And Keep The Hate Alive !

Hmm..interesting take on Lord Ram. As a Hindu believer, I don't find any reason to be upset with Wendy Doniger.

Hinduism, as it has been adopted by people over centuries, is such a fabulous religion in that it is the only one which accepts nearly everything. Generally speaking there is no one single God. There is no Pope. There are no strict rules like 'must be vegetarian', or 'must not drink'.

There are different versions of the Ramayana in India, Malaysia, Thailand etc... Even within India, versions differ between regions. For example, Ravana is considered a hero in some parts of the south. The religion itself has Gods with multiple wives, there are Gods that drink and smoke, some others that even smoke pot (or whatever its equivalent is), Eunuchs or the third gender are glorified in some places and rightly given recognition, sex has been celebrated, homosexuality has also been depicted - some even among Gods (although our brainwashed victorian minds will refuse to accept it)...Name a vice and you will find a Hindu God who suffered from it but was otherwise great.

These are the things that has enabled Hinduism to survive - by evolving with times and being tolerant of everything and accepting everyone in its fold.

There is no need to get all worked up and become a self proclaimed defender of Hinduism for the different interpretation of the Ramayana. In the spirit of this religion, we must be able to take a step back and laugh at ourselves and the stories we believe in.

Ms Doniger should know that the culmination of all learning is that nothing can be learned or that a person who knows all realizes that he knows nothing,the great Einstein was right when he said everything is relative.The percentage of people who understand the concept of relativity today are the same as was during the time of Einstein.This act of Ms Doniger should be seen only from monetary viewpoint,i may be wrong but then everything is relative

I think we Hindus should stop behaving like Judeo Christian Mohmmadan religions. There are basically two types of religions in the world:
One is belief oriented where you believe the words of prophet, messiah and follow blindly. Like on the day of judgement God will take you to heaven if you follow Jesus or mohammad etc. If you don't follow them then God punishes you by throwing you in eternal hell. Holier than thou messiahs are born like that and you will remain their sheep.
Second is eastern religions Taoism, Hinduism, buddism and Jainism. These are Truth Seeking religions. You have to seek the truth and experience the truth by yourself. You are given a certain path to follow and through that you can become enlightened. Like a leaf thinks of itself as an individual but through meditation their is an awakening and suddenly opens its eyes and sees that it is a part of the tree which is connected to earth which is connected to the Universe. The feeling of oneness with the Universe is called enlightenment. That why the sage of Upanishad says "Ahm Brahmasmi" (I am the Universe). The Hindus are so scientific they don't even say 'One Universe" but Non Dual 'cause even one gives the idea of the second.
Let the suppressing of ideas whether right or wrong happen with Vatican and Ulemas.

Sir,
This is in response to Wendy Doniger's interview.The wording is addressed to her as a response.

Lakshmana calling Dasaratha 'kamasakta' was an outburst. You do not think and pick words during an outburst. Wendy , do you choose words in an outburst ?
Like somebody slapped and abused your father in front of you - would you choose words especially in an outburst ? Wake up Ma'am Lakshmana was recorded as a hot-tempered person and this is not his only recorded outburst.
When Dasaratha sends his minister to the forest to enquire about the well-being of Rama,Lakshmana and Sita , Lakshmana tells the minister "I at any rate perceive no parenthood in the emperor; Sri Rama is my elder brother, master, kinsman and father too" .

Now Wendy , would you make Rama Lakshmana's biological father based on this remark ?

Warm Regards,
Shyam

"The methods are different, but the hypersensitivities are the same. However that goes against your grain of being always in a self-congratulatory mode!"

I have seen you reacting strongly when someone insulted islam or Mohammad on this forum. That does not make you Talibani or Islamists. So the method does matter.

senthamarai

you can like pol pot, stalin, castro , mugabe, idi amin ,rid india of the dreadful brahmins, upper class people who have built industries , infrastructure
in india.

communists in bengal have done it- you can see the results thereafter.

you can see it in uttarpradesh under mayawati, bihar under laloo pradesh you are most welcome.

things will get worse for you, and you will fully
deserve the consequences .

talented people have a much more secure future abroad,
where they are welcomed and respected.

with or without you india has a very dismal future-
a booming population, disastrous climate changes, and
hundreds of millions of disgrutled masses, who have
a bleak future.

that is the reality- your hateful mindset will not help you. anyway you live under a dmk administration
under karanunidhi- brahmins are the marginalised
community- what more can you wish for.

i note that most of the hateful dalits seem to come from tamil nadu- any particular reasons.

Gayathri,

>>it is amazeing to read comments by people like ganapathi , senthamarai - chuttejee, kumar, faruki,
auggie the chimp.

Do not stop at just getting 'amazed' and try to think for a reason why such diversity of people having viewpoints on leftism, capitalism, brahminism, indian nationalism etc.., are very similar in condemning your ultra-right wing lunacy!

>> are you losing interest in ethnic cleansing if the shoe were on the other foot?

Brahminism has no shame at all in proclaiming victimhood even in the face explict fascist aggression by it through Indian state apparatus.

Aug:>>"most don't know and/or don't care".

devouts know their sources, carefully read also. others need not care. true of all relig. those who wag tails only to create trouble for others, will have their tails cut.

Aug:>>"authorized by whom and on what basis?"

by the devout aachaaryaas of the hindu faith, irresprective of the cult/sect affiliations. There is an elaborate way in which such genuine rishi-folk texts are introduced and presented. other versions do not follow this authentic ancient patterns of presentation, indicating who wrote, under whose command, for whose use, etc..

Aug:>>"there is no evidence for Rama as a historic figure"

all hindus' almanacs show the current period as the fifty-first century after kaliyug start, dwapar-end, around 3100bc. as per naarada-samhita, dwaapar only 2.4 kyrs. prev yug treta [3.6kyrs long] ended around 5500 bc. Ram avtar was around that period only, i.e. over seven millennia ago.

kritaante yah trivikramah tretaante so raamachandrah
dwaaparaante krishNamoortih kalau sa-eva Sreenivaasah.

start of dark-age kali youga 5.1kyrs ago, had a confusing 'satanic' effect on the Bs preparing almanacs also. they took divines' day as one human yr of 365 days, said kaliyug will last 1200x365 = 438000 yrs, [naarada does not say so], pushing ram avtar also back by 800 millennaia! yogananda points this out in his autobiography book, very clearly.

no wonder this gives a good handle for anti-hinds to question the historicity of ram and kr also, along with that. there are enough crooked or foolish Bs also who go along with such interpretations also these days. god knows His own history anyway, forgives mistakes, but punishes deliberaten mischiefs, micro-correctly. a former travancore diwan, cpr iyer, wrote in a book, emphatically, that Sankara's date was eighth century AD only, to please the Sringerians, went to London, died there itself! truth asserts itself, strongly, especially in matters of high spiritual importance.

>>It is the only authoritative version,

authorized by whom and on what basis?

>>others are decoratively devotional versions with liberties taken in exaggeration, imagination, by the devout authors like kamban in tamil, tulasidas in hindi, many many others. devout hindus read them all, only to enhance their own devotion to rama, the dharmaavatara.

the handful of those who actually read it are rendered mute if they were to come to know there are 300 versions of it...by in large, most don't know and/or don't care.

Gayatri/Lalit,

>> these people seem to have deep grudges against some classes of society in india.

Does anyone in this forum have more grudges and hate against more sections of Indian society than you? Anyway, I shall be away for four days. Behave yourself while I am gone.

Aug:>>"does that mean valmiki's version has special authority?"

It is the only authoritative version, called itihaasa, like vyaasa's mahaabhaarata also. [iti iha aasan = like this, here, were people = history] others are decoratively devotional versions with liberties taken in exaggeration, imagination, by the devout authors like kamban in tamil, tulasidas in hindi, many many others. devout hindus read them all, only to enhance their own devotion to rama, the dharmaavatara.

anti-hinds, atheists criticize, find loopholes to denigrate, even write deliberately evilized versions, also. devout hindus ignore them. anti-hinds utilize them for facilitating their conv/conq operations to greater success. But, the tails of all these mischievous rats and monkeys will only be painfully cut by the lord behind all religs. those who make a habit of downgrading others' religions will lose their spiritual evolution, progress, benefits thro their own religions also. hurting the sentiments of the devout souls of any religion will only provoke the wrath of the only lord behind all faiths.

Varun & Maha,

>> "It is ridiculous to compare it with violent protests by Muslims against Danish cartoon."

The methods are different, but the hypersensitivities are the same. However that goes against your grain of being always in a self-congratulatory mode!

*******
this is anger at people like ganapathi, senthamarai who continue to abuse us without provocation.
how can one work with people who hate and mock at you.?
my comments are forthright, and i just want to say that people who look for confrontation will get it.
*******

Ok, feel free to indulge in abuse and counter abuse. I don't think abusing is effective. But it's upto you.

>>it is amazeing to read comments by people like ganapathi , senthamarai - chuttejee, kumar, faruki,
auggie the chimp.

are you losing interest in ethnic cleansing if the shoe were on the other foot?

"It is ridiculous to compare it with violent protests by Muslims against Danish cartoon."

You are absolutely right. The only equivalence would be if a magazine/newspaper in Saudi, Iran, Pakistan or among the Taliban, would publish an interview with a scholar like Doniger who scrutinizes the life of the founder of Islam, or goes into details about the Koran in an irreverent, nonchalant kind of way.
There is no equivalence here.

"Good post. The Hindutva brigade does not represent stauncher Hindus any more than the Danish cartoon protesters represented stauncher Muslims. They are just politicized Hindus."

It has become fashionable to brand anyone as person from Hindutva brigade or Sanghis if he/she debates and reacts to insult to someone like Shri Ram in a civilized way. It is ridiculous to compare it with violent protests by Muslims against Danish cartoon.

>>criticizing Jews, Zionism and their daily crimes

there's a legitimate way of criticizing instead of relying on vile stereotypes....

And here is my take what ever is worth.

We are living in the age of blasphemy. There is no point in trying to defend anything by words your opponent will never concede in words. Christianity attempted to protect itself with the help of the Inquisition and Islam does it by brute actions. And it is impossible to visualize such a situation as the author seems to fear about Hinduism because there need two essential ingredients to bring about such a situation viz, a tyrant and brutal god up in the sky and his equally vicious sole representative/s on earth. Hinduism lacks both.

I am not surprised that the turn of Hinduism has come to be dissected. Why it seems to have created such heat is that it is the first time in India a popular media arm has liberally lent its pages to mount that attack though it has been going on surreptitiously from the time the missionary landed here.

Interestingly, in the western world the atheists have been dissecting Christianity and its myths through best selling books and debates. Though the Time magazine or Newsweek and other mainstream media may lend their pages to publish opinion critical of Christian creed, I doubt whether they will agree to print the stories that some unfortunate bible patriarch was sodomized by his sons or the Christian god Yahweh fiddled with Mary .the so called mother of god and left her in the lurch thus creating the first Christian cuckold husband in the person of Joseph, to substantiate one’s argument against Christianity.

It is interesting to watch whether Outlook will be inviting a Christophobe or Islamophobe to entertain us by what in Thomas Paine’s words the Bible is:

“Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we called it the word of a demon, than the Word of God. It is a history of wickedness, that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind; and, for my own part, I sincerely detest it, as I detest everything that is cruel’

>>like how Uttarakhand is created for Brahmins by splitting UP.

or shipping them off to Andaman and Nicobar Islands or take over Sri Lanka and make it a colony for them; one set of people's concerns about purity and others' fetish about ethnic cleansing get taken care of in one fell swoop ;O

>>>>"300 different versions of Ramayana".

>>written out of intense, widespread devotion to rama in various parts of india, only.

raising the issue of which one of the 300, if any one of them, is authoritative...more likely it is a general narrative that was allowed to incorporate local peculiarities....so as to give an illusion of a huge following under a "Hindu" banner.....other religious texts do not allow for different versions (different translations but not different versions)

>>it does not, need not, deny that the original raamaayana was by valmiki only,

does that mean valmiki's version has special authority?

>>or that ram's life as historic as augustus in your name,

that there is no evidence for Rama as a historic figure is the crux of this whole debate....so it can't be merely glossed over by comparing to a real life flesh and blood, historically verifiable roman emperor.

*******
dalits should form their own state, elect their own people,and build a wall to stop the upper castes from
their territory. we will leave you alone. no one can gain from poor,ignorant and stupid people. india has abot 700 to 800 million such people-who are a burden
*******

Why is that?. Dalits already have India. If you (i mean the upper castes) want you can create your own state and stay happy. like how Uttarakhand is created for Brahmins by splitting UP.

:-)

********
i have just used the word majority of lower castes and not the entire group like others who talk about hindus.the majority of genuine low caste leaders from all over the country whether thirumavalavan from tamilnadu or athavale and ambedkar in maharashtra or mayawathi in up share a deep anger and angst against the worshipping of ram and krishna.
********

Actually you are claiming to speak for all or most lower caste Hindus and that is what I oppose.

Thirumavalavan cannot win an election in a single
constituency without the support of either DMK / AIADMK. He does not speak for all Dalits either. What about Selvam another Dalit leader who got kicked out of VCK recently or what about Kirubanidhi Dalit leader of the BJP(??).

What you are trying to do is same as what you accuse the Brahmins of trying to do, appropriate the space of the lower caste and trying to impose your views as those of the majority.

Do you think majority of Tamils boycotted the Deepavali celebrations in Tamilnadu last week. Even Kalaignar TV was showing special programmes on Deepavali.

:-)

maheshwari

i think the whole affaire wendy is a storm in a tea cup. i dont know who wendy is, and i can not undertand
why anyone takes her views seriously.

those who are upset are reacting in a similar but less
hysterical way then the muslims did over the cartoons
about mehemmet.

however i am interested in the views of the dalits.
ganapathi is adamant in saying some nasty things about ram. it is a childish manner of hitting at his bete noir the upper class hindus and brahmins in particular.

to the deprived classes

-----------------------

you are not winning friends amongst the upper classes.
your feelings of hate against them will rebound on you.

if you dislike hinduism thats ok with us. you can worship a cat, mayawati or ambedkar for all i care.

all in all it shows that your poor situation has more to do with your petty, irrational minds then with
anything else.

remember one thing. muslims in united india allways blamed the cunning hindu bania for their problems.
they never bothered to look at the causes in their own community. now pakistani,s are down and out- now no hindu banias can be held responsible.

dalits should form their own state, elect their own people,and build a wall to stop the upper castes from
their territory. we will leave you alone. no one can gain from poor,ignorant and stupid people. india has abot 700 to 800 million such people-who are a burden
for this unlucky country. this population can not look
after itself . it is breeding faster then rabbits.
it is a complete disaster. the situation is the same in pakistan. the situation there is perhaps worse. 90 percent are poor. there are food riots. same is the situation in africa.

whom would you blame for that- ram, krishan, sita.

idiots-

Arun,

>> "I don't understand the Hindutva brigade though. I would have thought the stauncher Hindus that they are (or pretend to be) they would be stronger and more secure in the fact that Ramayana's value to the faithful of the Hindu fold will hardly be dented - it will remain as strong as it has been for eternity, Wendy's will come and Wendy's will go. I would have thought there would be wisdom and virtue is staying silent on it. I know the Hindutva brigade's favourite punching bag are muslims, though again the colonization of mind by the British/European colonizers was far more insidious and far reaching.

Good post. The Hindutva brigade does not represent stauncher Hindus any more than the Danish cartoon protesters represented stauncher Muslims. They are just politicized Hindus.

Aug:>>"300 different versions of Ramayana".

written out of intense, widespread devotion to rama in various parts of india, only. it does not, need not, deny that the original raamaayana was by valmiki only, or that ram's life as historic as augustus in your name, only 5Kyrs earlier. ram is there in the names of a million or more hindus today, including marxists like hindu-ram and naxalites like seetaaraam yechury!

dear maha by wendy i mean what she says.karunanidhi the cm said that ram is a drunkard according to valmiki and there r thousands of books starting from ambedkar periyar to kancha ilaiah which r far more in criticizing the character of ram.and buddy selvan i have just used the word majority of lower castes and not the entire group like others who talk about hindus.the majority of genuine low caste leaders from all over the country whether thirumavalavan from tamilnadu or athavale and ambedkar in maharashtra or mayawathi in up share a deep anger and angst against the worshipping of ram and krishna.kindly get the bangaru lakshmans and mundas in bjp to talk about ram and hindutva and inspite of 50 yrs of rss brainwashing they will be like fish out of water.kindly read the books of dalit writers and most have a antiram feeling.

>>As you are so keen on evidence, do you have evidence to prove who your father is or who your father's father is/was etc. etc.

What kind of evidence will satisfy you? And do you have the same kind of evidence about your father or grandfather?

G:>>"diwali is celebrated in south for kali annhilating narahasura"

"diwali is celebrated all over india for krishNa annhilating narakasura", is the correct statement.

>>"and not ram returning back to ayodhya"

"also for ram returning back to ayodhya", the more correct statement.

>>Ram as a divine being will continue to be revered as a being larger and greater than oneself, as an object of pure devotion and as a cultural symbol.

No one will object to such claims; but, a claim he's a historical person will get you disagreement.

>>more than 90 % of the hindus have absolutely no clue who Wendy is.

more than 90% of the Hindus' familiarity with Ramayana is limited to local interpretations in live actor plays with garish costumes and North Indian Brahmin interpretations on televisions and films....most would be incredulous to find out there are 300 different versions of Ramayana.

*******
i just say that there are a lot within hindus who support wendy fully and hope u dont disagree with it.
*******

It is very subjective. I would not say a lot of Hindus support Wendy fully unless there is reliable data.

By saying the above you are trying to do what you accuse the Brahmins of trying to do (appropriate the right to speak for all or a lot of Hindus).

Ganapathi,

"dear selvan i just say that there are a lot within hindus who support wendy fully and hope u dont disagree with it."

How do you know this ? I can guarantee more than 90 % of the hindus have absolutely no clue who Wendy is.

****
before our marriages we prey before katteri by offering liquor and all available nonveg.
****

Not all. Only those folks who believe in Katteri. You missed out on the black saree part along with all available non veg. I like Katteri very much.

dear selvan i just say that there are a lot within hindus who support wendy fully and hope u dont disagree with it.

Ram as a divine being will continue to be revered as a being larger and greater than oneself, as an object of pure devotion and as a cultural symbol. Lots of people won't even take all the details of Ram's life literally; they will look more at the divine quality.

>>I do agree with one posters view that the interviewer was using "leading" questions towards a pre-established purpose.

Will Doniger's interview answers be diametrically opposed to what was in the book had she be interviewed by a more skillful questioner?

>>In fact I have to believe that it is more likely, Wendy gave the interviewer, both the questions and answers (emailed of course).

interesting theory...any evidence to support it?

>>The interviewer just had to add her name and Outlook just published it (with no editorial judgment either).

certainly one possibility....just as aliens from Mars edited this piece is another possibility...

>>I don't understand the Hindutva brigade though. I would have thought the stauncher Hindus that they are (or pretend to be) they would be stronger and more secure in the fact that Ramayana's value to the faithful of the Hindu fold will hardly be dented - it will remain as strong as it has been for eternity, Wendy's will come and Wendy's will go. I would have thought there would be wisdom and virtue is staying silent on it.

Because they are not interested in the ideas of Hinduism (as they are difficult to understand and boring to study) but are interested in using it as a platform for achieving political power

>>I know the Hindutva brigade favourite punching bag are muslims, though again the colonization of mind by the British/European colonizers was far more insidious and far reaching.

any concrete examples?

>>In fact the brigade seems to be so impressed by this colonization of the mind that they seem to want us to be recast in the mould of European nation-state/culture/religion.

more likely because their understanding is so shallow and vapid compared to people who actually take ideas seriously....

>>I shudder to think what we will do as we travel this path.

lay out your fears...

>>The Europeans though they did well for themselves (and west as a whole) but during their journey (progress) brought about untold and irreversible horror to much of the world not to mention that a Hitler (and many mini Hitlers) would also be inevitably created in that journey.

Hitlers were a consequence of the rational and analytical trajectory of western intellectual journey?

>>Publicly the brigade opposes western values/culture too though not as much as muslim - they somehow miss how frighteningly western influenced they are (without of course the redeeming side).

There's nothing inherently western about rational analysis and careful study.

dear rao so thousands of yrs back ramayana of valmiki was composed by a single indl and he was so intelligent that a single line removal will spoil the entire 24000 lines and to top it all he was a lower caste. kindly see the gods and the songs of lower castes still in vogue and they will be full of sex and bad words. before our marriages we prey before katteri by offering liquor and all available nonveg.marrying two sisters or daughters of both uncles to avoid family feud was also very common till recently.most of the folk songs of sita rama kali alll include crude words of punishment of tearing the organs etc.till date during mahalaya amavasya people go to the burial ground and make garlands of bones and even eat the flesh over there. when a child is sick/for getting daughter married etc they prey that they will walk on fire and get them pierced in the toungue and hang with hooks srtruck at the back. they pull chariots with photos of god with hooks pierced in their bodies. if valmiki was really a low caste then whatever wendy interprets may be truth.kinbdly see any village festival of kali/village gods to see the practises of majority of hindus. its only with sophistication and on reading magazines dominated by brahmins keeping kolu/lighting candles have all started.diwali is celebrated in south for kali annhilating narahasura and not ram returning back to ayodhya.the brahminisation of festivals are happening in the last 3 decades and here i find brahmins crying that all hindus follow those comedies for thousands of yrs.

>>as a hindu, we are not afraid of having an open & honest debate.

I can evaluate your claim fairly only after you first define "open" and "honest"....

>>trouble is, anti hindu media like OUTLOOK never ever give any chance to hear the other side i.e hindu side.

the number of words (true, they are incoherent) spilled in denouncing Doninger's analysis is an ocean compared to the trickle of substantive critique of "the other side"

>>they just hammer this crap like wendy as "authentic" version of hinduism. this is the main reason we the hindus have to bring other religions in to discussions.

What you end up doing is supplementing your ignorance of Hinduism with your ignorance of other religions as well...

>>we just want to say that when hinduism is challenged, and as a hindu i fully support that, other religions should be challenged as well.

do it to the best of your disability.....but it won't do anything to Doniger's analysis of Ramayana.

>>why can't OUTLOOK ask taslima nasreen to expose islam?.

will that help building your case that Doniger's analysis of Ramayana is flawed?

>>or why can't they ask richard dawkins (GOD DELUSION)to expose christianity?.

will that help your case that Rama is a historical person?

>>these double standards lead to violence.

thugs jacked up on free country liquor courtesy of VHP/RSS (and the likes of you) lead to violence

>>VHP/Bajrangdal resort to violence because they are not given space by the so called secular media.

the space they are given is wasted with retarded vitriol...since actual learning the facts about different religions and comparative analysis is hard and boring...

>>why can't OUTLOOK invite a hindu scholar to take on wendy?.

Why don't you become a Hindu scholar and take on Wendy? Why is it someone else has to do what you want done?

>>they won't do that because OUTLOOK knows wendy will loose pathatically.

and you lost your ability to spell pathetically....

****
kindly stop talking on behalf of hindus as majority of lower castes consider ambedkar far ahead of ram krishna comedies and are in full support of wendies
****

Buddy,

I am a lower caste Tamil, Can you stop talking on behalf of me?. :-)

I think, it is quite impossible to know what millions of people think on one particular issue. No one has organised a referendum or to elected some one else to represent their views based on a single issue.

Thanks

BVG Rao,

Thanks for your comment. I learnt some thing new. Never knew Lakshman threatened to kill his father. seems to be one hot tempered guy.

Anyone noticed this, It is funny to see this in Outlook.

*******
A shorter version of this interview appears in print. Typos fixed on 20 October, 2009.
*******

It is probably because of you. Now they'd update the website again with other note: Typos fixed on 22 October 2009. They could as well fix the whole article.

:-)

trouble is, anti hindu media like OUTLOOK never ever give any chance to hear the other side i.e hindu side.
namo
dear friend its only antihindu outlook which gives u uncensored permission and not ur favourite panchajanyas.what do u mean by hindu side say brahmin side as crores of hindus like karunanidhi mayawathi paswan think like wendy only. kindly read the riddles of hinduism by ambedkar to see how he has criticized the casteist nature of ram and krishna.how come brahmins usrp the hindu space when they form just a miniscule minority. the dravida kazhagam can organise lakhs of hindus and felicitate wendy for presenting the story in original form and not brahminised versions.
tamilians are more worried about cauvery issue and are least bothered about whether chandigarh should be the common capital of punjab or haryana. hindus form a majority in this country and hence most of the antihindu literature arises here to awaken the masses on the ills of brahminism. can u ask russel why u wrote why i am not a christian and not why i am not a hindu.kindly stop talking on behalf of hindus as majority of lower castes consider ambedkar far ahead of ram krishna comedies and are in full support of wendies.

Dear Gajanan, BVG Rao.

Thanks for the enlightening inputs and links. Here is one more take on where the Donigers of the world get their historically advantageous playing field.

http://indianrealist...y-reinvented-itself/

The saddest part is that The Colonized populace internalized the Anglo-Saxon culture's rules, values and psychologically intimidating use of the English language. The cream of Indian intellectual society prides itself in its fluency over these ways of thinking. This educated, over-anglicised part is the shaper of official India. That is why they celebrate Slumdog Millionaires, after engendering those social conditions in the last 50 years. I can never understand why there is no twinge of shame in these celebrations.

"That non-jews invented a mythical jewish rabbi and a complete mythology to kill the jews? If what is shown on TV channels is your criteria to judge the truth, you are criminally incapable of thinking" . See this and judge.

http://www.inquisitionproductions.com/

bowenpalle venuraja gopal rao

Excellent post Rao. In many days I haven't read such a good post- authoritative and incisive . To me Wendy sounds least qualified for the job.

For BVG Rao.
This was given by an Indonesian friend of mine. Raoji you write well. You shoulg go for this conference to present your views as a paper.

http://www.cseas.niu...maConf2010/index.htm

Then there is the committee and flyer
http://www.cseas.niu...RamaConf2010CFP1.pdf
Then there is the Ramayana institute.
http://www.ramayanainstitute.com/9th_Ramayana.html
Go thru the sites Raoji. You will find interesting stuff

I suppose her intent with the interview was pre-launch publicity. If the volume of response on this forum is anything to go by, I guess she has achieved her objective.

I do agree with one posters view that the interviewer was using "leading" questions towards a pre-established purpose. In fact I have to believe that it is more likely, Wendy gave the interviewer, both the questions and answers (emailed of course). The interviewer just had to add her name and Outlook just published it (with no editorial judgment either).

I don't understand the Hindutva brigade though. I would have thought the stauncher Hindus that they are (or pretend to be) they would be stronger and more secure in the fact that Ramayana's value to the faithful of the Hindu fold will hardly be dented - it will remain as strong as it has been for eternity, Wendy's will come and Wendy's will go. I would have thought there would be wisdom and virtue is staying silent on it.

I know the Hindutva brigade favourite punching bag are muslims, though again the colonization of mind by the British/European colonizers was far more insidious and far reaching. In fact the brigade seems to be so impressed by this colonization of the mind that they seem to want us to be recast in the mould of European nation-state/culture/religion. I shudder to think what we will do as we travel this path. The Europeans though they did well for themselves (and west as a whole) but during their journey (progress) brought about untold and irreversible horror to much of the world not to mention that a Hitler (and many mini Hitlers) would also be inevitably created in that journey. Publicly the brigade opposes western values/culture too though not as much as muslim - they somehow miss how frighteningly western influenced they are (without of course the redeeming side).

"I'm not surprised with the comments of the Hindu readers. As soon as they had to stoop to calling names and bringing Islam and Christianity in the discussion, they have gone totally off the subject "

as a hindu, we are not afraid of having an open & honest debate.

trouble is, anti hindu media like OUTLOOK never ever give any chance to hear the other side i.e hindu side. they just hammer this crap like wendy as "authentic" version of hinduism. this is the main reason we the hindus have to bring other religions in to discussions. we just want to say that when hinduism is challenged, and as a hindu i fully support that, other religions should be challenged as well. why can't OUTLOOK ask taslima nasreen to expose islam?. or why can't they ask richard dawkins (GOD DELUSION)to expose christianity?. these double standards lead to violence. VHP/Bajrangdal resort to violence because they are not given space by the so called secular media. why can't OUTLOOK invite a hindu scholar to take on wendy?. they won't do that because OUTLOOK knows wendy will loose pathatically.

Rao:>>"What , Wendy Doniger says is a blatant lie"

thank you for the clear quotes from valmiki ramayana.
the culture dept of GoI should object, officially, to the university she works for. but, for ambika soni and karuna in TN, ram story itself is only fiction. Hindus world over can only depend on God Himself for the continuance of their culture and traditions, as He has done, over many millennia..
v.seshadri
chennai, india<<<

Ancient Sages said " nun rushi kuruthe kavyam"
which means
"Those who are not sages can not write an epic"

In an epic , the chandas ,the metere is used in such a way that one sloka's ending will be the begining of another ,they are well in cadence, so well structured that one word you can not replace changing the entire meaning of many slokas and also the sound vibration,the corruption that occures would be horrible. It's matra shakri (sound power ) is gone and the chanting devotees won't get ay benifit either.

So, you have 24000 slokas in Valmiki Ramayan.
You can not (and should not) take out slokas , at various sargas,kandas and stich (structure)them together to get a meaning . That is very unethical,malicious practice.
Wendy Doniger says that she is trying to get various parts ( of valmiki Ramayana) and forming an opinion or
coming out with a theory.In her words
"So I’m taking pieces of the Ramayana and putting them together and saying these are not disconnected".
So this is just non-sense.
And this Sanskrit scholar also found a husband for celestial dancer Rambha !! , I am yet to learn.

Rao:>>"What , Wendy Doniger says is a blatant lie"

thank you for the clear quotes from valmiki ramayana.
the culture dept of GoI should object, officially, to the university she works for. but, for ambika soni and karuna in TN, ram story itself is only fiction. Hindus world over can only depend on God Himself for the continuance of their culture and traditions, as He has done, over many millennia..

What , Wendy Doniger says is a blatant lie and that is very clear, as I had pointed it out earlier.
She speaks about the chapters which does not exist in the Valmiki's Ramayana but claims nevertheless, that she read them as part of Valmiki's Ramayana. Since I do not want to repeat,
I would like to point some other faults.

The word "Kama asaktha" (and later edited as Kama-atma) does not exist in Valmiki Ramayana's Laxmana’s words at least. The anger of Laxmana is described in "Ayodhya kanda" (kanda means book).

Here is the sloka.
"vipariitaH ca vR^iddhaH ca viSayaiH ca pradharSitaH |
nR^ipaH kim iva na bruuyaac codyamaanaH samanmathaH ||

"The king with perverted mind, of old age, one who is outraged by sensual enjoyments and possessed of passion can talk any thing, prompted by Kaikeyi"

sarga means chapter this is from 21 chapter, 3rd sloka.

In this sarga ,Lakshma expresses his anger like a snake. Again and again Valmiki describes him as a snake, for example similes like "Lakshmana opens his eyes like a snake”, “he hissed like a snake”, “he rose up like a king cobra from its hole” and so on. The reference to snake was because, Sage Valmiki was aware that in past birth he was a snake "Adi Shesha" protecting Lord Vishnu. Both the brothers Lord Rama and Lakshmana were not aware of their past birth, according Valmiki Ramayana and in the end of Ramayana, Sita jumped in to fire and did not return from fire(for a long time) , While Rama was lamenting his misfortune, and weeping , Yamaraja (God of death) Brahma and Lord Shiva appeared before him (along with other Gods) and make him remember his past birth and describe to him that he was Lord Vishnu.

As for word "Kama-asaktha" Wendy Doniger claims that she read it as part of Valmiki Ramayana, in which off course it does not exist. She also claims that she is a Sanskrit scholar.
First issue: Kama does not essentially mean sex. Hindus have a "KAMA DHENU" which means wishful filling cow and definitely not "sex fulfilling cow " which is absurd.

Then comes her theory that Rama had secret fear (as well you can call it a phobia), that people might opine that he was also a Kama-asaktha like his father ,for his fondness for his wife.
What Rama thought about his father we shall understand , for the purpose of her “research” irrespective of his half-brother Lakshmana's opinion about their father.

Rama moulds the opinion of Lakshmana and convinces him that he(Sri Ram) must obey his father and forgo his claim to be emperor for fourteen years and shall immediately leave for forests. So Lakshmana was convinced(by Rama) and follows his brother to the forests.

But before that Lakshmana says to Rama.

"tat idam vacanam raaj~naH punar baalyam upeyuSaH |
putraH ko hR^idaye kuryaat raaja vRttam anusmaran ||
which means that
"King Dasaratha is behaving like a Kid,as if he got his "balyam"
and in the next sloka :

protsaahito.ayam kaikeyyaa sa dushhTo yadiH pitaa |
amitrabhuuto nissaN^gam vadhyataam badhyataamapi

which means that
“I want to say that our father at the instigation of Kaikeyi(step-mother) became bad person. He is our enemy. And hence , I shall imprison father and if unavoidable I shall kill our father "
and also in the slokas later on
Lakshmana says that
Rama should not believe in "destiny" and the decision of goddess Lakshmi. He should not think of karma(fate) and that he(Laxmana) is ready to kill Kaikeyi's son and their half brother Bharatha. If required Laxmana argues that , he would kill all those citizens who may revolt against caronation (of Sri Rama's)
but Sri Rama objects.
In addition to his ferocious brother he had to convince his mother Kausalya also to get her blessings for his journey to forest at once.
What is Sri Rama's opinion about his father?
Here is a sample:
satyaH satya abhisamdhaH ca nityam satya paraakramaH |
para loka bhayaat bhiitaH nirbhayo astu pitaa mama || 2-22-9

“Let the promise made by my father ,who is truthful, who is truly mighty and who is afraid of the fear of the other world, become true .Let him be fearless.”

This is only a sample. Throughout Ayodhya kanda or anywhere else in Ramayana, he never harboured a feeling that his father was a sex-addict. He says Kaikeyi was excellent woman, but then she was under the clouds of influence of a bad fate, bad karma, and power of destiny.
So Wendy Doniger's theory that Rama had deep (seated) rooted fear that people might think that he was also a sex addict just because he had sex with his wife and that too only wife, and that he jumped out of bed and told "Sita !!, you must go,(go to forest)" !!!

Wendy also presumes ( or gives an impression to readers ) that people may not think, because he had only one wife and to have sex with wife is not a sin and yet it was because of Rama's deep seated psychological fear that he had sent his only wife Sita
to forest..
We shall remember that Wendy Doniger eulogized Sita, she never wrote anything bad about Sita, her theory or anger was about Rama.
First of all what is RAMAYANA?
Ayana means journey. Ramayana means that "Rama's journey"
Why it survived a million years across upheavals of history, foreign hordes destruction of India physically as well as on a cultural ,social, economical and also psychological vandalism??.
Sri Rama's journey is the journey in search of truth.
Elsewhere in Ramayana , Sri Rama says to Lakshmana that if Truth and kingdom is kept side by side ,he would prefer truth because in front of truth ,kingdom has no value to him.

The most beautiful part of Ramayana and the central part of Ramayana which is read again and again even by atheists is "Sundra Kanda" (the book of beauty)
This is chanted on daily basis by devotees, read by non-Hindus for its beautiful description,Sita's logical thinking and talking, Ravana's beliefs and philosophy. Scholars read this part for its great literary value and many students of sankrit read this part as part of learning Sanskrit. Astrologer recommend reading this part for those suffering from Kuja-dosha or manglik dosha.
Sundara Kanda starts with Hanuman jumping to Lanka and seeing Mandodari wife of Ravana in a palace, Hanuman thinks that he has seen Sita.
Indian people fondly remember emperor Shahajahan because of his fondness for his wife Mumtaz begum (nur-ja-han) with whom he produced 14 children. There is clear perception of difference in what Indians think about sex and what Europeans think. N.T.Rama rao got landslide victory against well entrenched congress when NT.Rama rao married at the age of 65 years and he danced with her on bus top. People admired and commented that "He" was the man.
Wendy probably bringing an European’s idea of sex as sin or her own personal problems. But the point is a great Hero like Sri Rama, having only one wife and then having sex with that one and only wife should not make people of Ayodhya to think that he was a sex addict !!! Wendy is an interesting woman.

>>I'm not surprised with the comments of the Hindu readers.

Fortunately, these yahoos aren't representative of the Hindus in general....just a virulent and vocal strain within it...

>>As soon as they had to stoop to calling names and bringing Islam and Christianity in the discussion, they have gone totally off the subject and are too embarrassed to agree that they are blind followers of a faith that has numerous interpretations.

Its only a problem for those who boast Hinduism to be the most "scientific" of the various choices avaiable to people

>>As an ex- Hindu and an Aethist by disposition, I delighted that Wendy has taken the time to research the religious texts and the basis of Hindu religion.

I am not sure being an ex-hindu or an atheist has any relevance to the question. However, every intellectually curious person who desires to understand an important cultural artifact like Ramayana for any insights into ourselves, our thoughts, our aspirations and our goals would find that reward enough. Consequently, they'd evaluate any analysis carefully and reject or accept it on how rigorous and scholarly it is.

>>I will be reading the book before I form my own opinion.

that's a grown up attitude...

>>But I must add that I have gotten similar reactions from my relatives whenever I questioned the character of Ram and Krishna in the popular versions of the Ramayana and Mahabharat.

You shouldn't be too hard on them; their understanding of reality is premised on the idea the Ramayana story is true...very few people are willing or capable of giving up what they believe to be foundational truths even after solid evidence to the contrary.

>>The discussion is not about comparing religions, or the Wendy's faith and background.

How else can they distract from the issues she points out?

>>Its simply about the conclusions of the author based on available religious texts of Hinduism.

The conclusions could be right, wrong or little of both. But, such intellectual confidence is generally lacking in our population; especially among the semi-educated ones...

I would like to make a few points regarding my last post. Since I haven't read the book, from the comments I think Wendy has, extracted and translated some information from ancient and modern Hindu religious literature, and then expressed her opinions and conclusions. After I have read the book, its possible I may disagree with her conclusions. But for she has obviously done a lot of work, and I do appreciate her efforts. Especially because I have come across lot of critical views on Christianity and Islam, but hadn't seen something about Hinduism

I wish the responses would have been rational and academic rather than the name calling and abusive. Just to clarify my point. AS one gentleman says that "Kama" has many meanings of which sex is just one. Well, this could have been argued by proving that in the relevant paragraph why they think the meaning was not sex but something else. And so on... I would have preferred this approach, because then I would have learned more of the context of point in question.

Alas, its was disappointing to find that the majority of responses were so abusive considering were are talking about religion and hopefully VALUES!!!!

>>So where did you learn this: calling wives, sisters or mothers names?

If you stay on topic, none of it would even come into play...

Wendy Doniger is selling her crap with publicity rather than content. Those who already hate Hindus would rejoice and irritated Hindus throw tantrums. Still, a billion plus comfortably ignore who writes what and stick to the opinion of Rama their minds conjured up a long time ago. Wendy failed if she wanted to denigrate the Hindu world. Just give her a cold shoulder and the issue will die down in a week. Frankly speaking, who is this Wendy? I never heard of her!! Give a shit if she claims to be a Sanskrit scholar or an authirity in Latin, who cares??

PJ,

I agree with you regarding some people's emotional reaction to Wendy's response, specially bringing other religions. But some of them have brought a valid counterpoint. Did you get a chance to read them as well ?

Also
you said,
". I will be reading the book before I form my own opinion"
and afterwards,
"I delighted that Wendy has taken the time to research the religious texts and the basis of Hindu religion" and
"Great work Wendy !!"

IMO you have already made the opinion without reading the book.

Where Wendy Made a blunder?

In Spiritual literature and Puranas, Kama does not mean sex. How is Wendy considered a scholar when she did not even get that?

Kama is passion or attraction for things including sensual pleasures. In some places it is also used to mean lust which is more closely related to sexual attraction. Reducing the word Kama to mean sex is stupid! Any non-spiritual person who is not equanimous would be a Kama-atma. By the standards of Sri Rama, Wendy would be a big time Kama-atma.

*****
Ding Ding.. News flash... Religions need blind faith. The concept of God is based on blind faith
*****

Awesome, great going.. :-)

These "secular" buffoons in the media and their cohorts think anyone who questions their double standards with regards to different religions are the EVIL HINDUTVADIS who are out to destroy the milky way.

>>I'm not surprised with the comments of the Hindu readers. As soon as they had to stoop to calling names and bringing Islam and Christianity in the discussion, they have gone totally off the subject and are too embarrassed to agree that they are blind followers of a faith that has numerous interpretations. As an ex- Hindu and an Aethist by disposition, I delighted that Wendy has taken the time to research the religious texts and the basis of Hindu religion. I will be reading the book before I form my own opinion. But I must add that I have gotten similar reactions from my relatives whenever I questioned the character of Ram and Krishna in the popular versions of the Ramayana and Mahabharat. The discussion is not about comparing religions, or the Wendy's faith and background. Its simply about the conclusions of the author based on available religious texts of Hinduism. Great work Wendy !!

Ding Ding.. News flash... Religions need blind faith. The concept of God is based on blind faith. Does any religion (other than Buddhism to some extent) operate on logic? Genesis? Adam and Eve? Islamic creation also implies Adam/Eve being expelled from heaven for a sin or Hindu creation theory? Does there any of this hold up to scientific analysis? The people believe it just to feel the continuity and to understand the purpose of life in this vast universe. Every religious story/theory has been disproved by science.

If you go to any religion and start questioning the sexual practices of their Gods, you will hear the same kind of reaction as you hear here.

If you are an atheist, why do you need to label yourself ex-Hindu? You are what you are.

The people who you are criticizing for discussing other religions have the same rights as Wendy, Sheela and you do. While you guys are bemoaning them, you want to freely attack their faith.

V:>>"The universe was created in 6 days".

in my opinion, the six 'days' in the biblical statement above can be interpretted as referring, symbolically, to six 'stages' in the development of the universe, involving matter, spirit, lives, and divine guidance/control for their sustenance, as per the mahaa-ShoDaSaaksharee mantra used in tantric poojas:

1. om: empty space-time continuum formed with relativity potentials.
2. Sreem: hydrogen atoms released from vacuous space.
3. hreem: their gravitational contraction into galaxies, stars, formation of planets circling the suns [stars]
4. kleem: formation of lives by coagulation of matter-antimatter [spirit] of various categories.
5. aim: infusion of angelic divine intelligence into the lives, bringing different levels of ego, mind, itellect, formations in them, as plants, animals, humans and divines/demons.
6. sowh: welfare and mutational-evolutions of their lives to various levels of existence, civilizn and achievements.

The perceptions in hindu spiritualism are generally in full alignment with all scientific understandings, as they evolve.

I'm not surprised with the comments of the Hindu readers. As soon as they had to stoop to calling names and bringing Islam and Christianity in the discussion, they have gone totally off the subject and are too embarrassed to agree that they are blind followers of a faith that has numerous interpretations. As an ex- Hindu and an Aethist by disposition, I delighted that Wendy has taken the time to research the religious texts and the basis of Hindu religion. I will be reading the book before I form my own opinion. But I must add that I have gotten similar reactions from my relatives whenever I questioned the character of Ram and Krishna in the popular versions of the Ramayana and Mahabharat. The discussion is not about comparing religions, or the Wendy's faith and background. Its simply about the conclusions of the author based on available religious texts of Hinduism. Great work Wendy !!

Lalitji

sex change doesn't agree with you. You should try to get the process reversed if possible and if you have not thrown out the vital parts

>>Just a foretaste of what can be, if you want to go down that road...

So where did you learn this: calling wives, sisters or mothers names? Hebrew sacred texts or Bibilical texts or Sanskrit texts? Did you go to School of Middle and Ancient Times for DUMB and NUMB along with Wendy?

Vijay:"Mossad has a secret project to convert Hindus to the TRUE FAITH, so they can all immigrate to Israel and balance the population".

rather difficult to belief. judaism is not a conversionist faith. only birth-death faith, like hinduism. jewish shrines are called temples only. they have high respect for hinduism. met quite a few in the universities in USA, in the north-west. they were only sorry that nehru was ignoring israel. quite a lot of wealthy jews in usa have given venture-capitals for promising hindu nri for starting new ventures in the ITEC fields of application. the prof who guided my son's ms-project was a jew. he offered to conduct my son's marriage in his house, if done in the usa. no conversion attempts by jews, to my knowledge.

>>"Mossad estimates it will take at least 1 billion immigrants to balance the populations".

israel cannot accommodate even a small fraction of it.

>>And as for mountains of evidence for evolution, I would like to see some of those. Just curious.

>>For starters, has natural selection been quantified or observed? Does it exist at all?

Sorry sir. The universe is going around the earth. Earth is flat. The universe was created in 6 days. It all started with Adam and Eve. Go back and have a nice sleep.

"Every religion operates on faith"

Is this an opinion or an article of faith?

And as for mountains of evidence for evolution, I would like to see some of those. Just curious.

For starters, has natural selection been quantified or observed? Does it exist at all?

>>The fact is that most Hindus don't know much about their faith. That is why most are weakly resigned to worshipping idols all their life, not questioning the rationale behind their spirituality.

Flash: Every religion operates on faith.

Majority of American conservative Christians strongly oppose theory of Evolution based on biblical texts even though there is mountain of evidence in front of their eyes. The believe in Creationism or now they are promoting Intelligent Design as an alternative. Church was always in contention with Science. Europeans Christians acknowledge the evolution, ignore the conflicts but just believe in the faith. Maintaining tradition is how humans survived. 90% of people need fear of God to feel secure and follow morals. If majority of Hindus do idol worshipping and majority of Christians go to church to listen to Bible. The hymns are as meanings as the Biblical teachings. But people need something to hang on.


>>Hindus, particularly the bajrangis, aren't adept to hearing bitter truths. Wendy and Sheela Reddy have done oodles of good to Hindus by exploring and debunking the myths in the lives of Rama, Sita and Dasharath.

What is bitter truth here? Rama being sex addict? Dasarth sex addict?
No conservative religious person likes to hear the truth. They operate on what is called "FAITH". Ask Goerge W Bush. He reads only one book "The Bible". He does not like his faith to be challenged by reading any other book. All religions are bogus.

Hear ye all, the faithful flock, for herein i write the heart of the matter.

Israel has a population problem. Its Jews are being outnumbered by its Arabs. Mossad has a secret project to convert Hindus to the TRUE FAITH, so they can all immigrate to Israel and balance the population. Mossad estimates it will take at least 1 billion immigrants to balance the populations.

So it comes to pass that they hire Wendy to subvert Hinduism and she does to by using subversive techniques like stating facts as they are.

I hence call upon the members of my faith to not fall for such subversion. Please remember that there is only one authority that can interpret Hinduism correctly. The RSS and Sangh Parivar are infallible - you know, like GOD...

>>don't know about sheela...but I only wish I were as dumb as Doniger when it comes to knowledge of Ramayana and Sanskrit.

May be brilliant Wendy, you and Sheela can dig thru Biblical, Hebrew or Sanskrit texts and figure how to get the polar ice caps back again! Or if we all sit and pray, will God repair them in 6 days? Or may be if brilliant Wendy can figure out how many times Rama did Sita per day on average, may be she can figure out a way to solve Global warming?

>>then go along your merry way and deal with non-fictional things that are as full as your head...

and leave all the world to you, Wendys and Sheelas. I am sure world will be a lot horrible place to live if that happens.

>>So, why are scratching an avoidable itch?

Scratching an itch is fun as exposing frauds like you.

>>You have explained anti-semitism in a single line.

I have a tendency to explain a lot of things in a single line. But inadvertent compliments aside, I was responding to claim anti-jews invented christian mythology when the facts show that the early christians are jewish converts. So, follow the conversation like an infant would follow a bouncing ball.

>>Atleast , you have accepted this fact.

I accept all facts....too bad you don't know what facts are.

>>But it is not mythology, as many in the West have written about this extensively and even documentaries about this is shown on TV channels.

That non-jews invented a mythical jewish rabbi and a complete mythology to kill the jews? If what is shown on TV channels is your criteria to judge the truth, you are criminally incapable of thinking.

>>Can the moderator let me know what is the policy my comment violated. I'll try to stick to that in the future (if possible)

While I agree there's a tendency for Outlook to be arbitrary in enforcing comment policy, you are wrong on the merits of the issue you raised.

Muhammad's marriage to either 9 year old Ayesha or 40 year old Khadijah simply aren't relevant to the Koranic themes (although, arguably its conception of heaven as an endless supply of virgins is tangentially related). However, in Ramayana, Sita's chastity and suspicions surrounding it are an integral part of the plot and what drives it. So, your cut and replace analysis for what passes for equal treatment is childish at best.

In the Arab desert, women in those days didn't live very long for many reasons: nutrition, healthcare and childbirth. So, the women married young....sometimes betrothed at even birth...sometimes to cement political alliances.

Even Hindu texts prescribe the ideal age difference between males and females...the male should be 3x the age of the female. And those texts are supposed to be timeless. With child marriages still occurring in the hinterland (regardless of what the law says), expressing bogus indignation about a different culture 1300 years ago is an indication of how degenerated the argumentative capacity of some Hindus has become.

>>Hmmmmm.... understanding the narrative in religions? You are as dumb as Wendy or Sheela.

don't know about sheela...but I only wish I were as dumb as Doniger when it comes to knowledge of Ramayana and Sanskrit.

>>The foundation of every religion is a LIE you stupid dumb idiot.

Then, why are you so worked up over it?

>>Religions are based on cock and bull stories whether it is Judaism or Christianity or Hinduism or Islam. That's why people call it faith.

Then you wasting your time on false stories implies you are dumber than dumb.

>>If you start applying logic and psychology to fictional characters called Gods in these religions, they are nothing but empty as your head, Wendy's head
or Sheela's heads are.

then go along your merry way and deal with non-fictional things that are as full as your head...

>>The universe is not created in 6 days as in Bible or does not lie in the mouth of Krishna.

So, why are scratching an avoidable itch?

Please take all complaints about comments policy to the relevant thread:

http://blog.outlookindia.com/default.aspx?ddm=10&pid=1669&eid=5 --Moderator

>>Can Madam Reddy ask similar questions just by changing names from Hindu Gods to the other TRUE prophets?

>>>>Ask when the same theme is equally relevant to understanding the narrative in other religions....and such questions aren't raised. Until then, I'll withhold my judgment. But you won't...so knock yourself out.

Hmmmmm.... understanding the narrative in religions? You are as dumb as Wendy or Sheela . The foundation of every religion is a LIE you stupid dumb idiot. Religions are based on cock and bull stories whether it is Judaism or Christianity or Hinduism or Islam. That's why people call it faith.

If you start applying logic and psychology to fictional characters called Gods in these religions, they are nothing but empty as your head, Wendy's head or Sheela's heads are. The universe is not created in 6 days as in Bible or does not lie in the mouth of Krishna.

Sandy said:

"Did anyone notice that Outlook has edited the interview to correct one stupid remark made by Wendy which showed her knowledge in Sanskrit language."

You did and I am sure other discerning readers did. No wonder likes of Romila Thaper and Wendy Doniger hate internet. It exposes their pompous attitude.

Here is Richard Zimlers interview

http://in.rediff.com/news/2005/sep/14inter1.htm

Wendy done(inger) it again.
set the cat among the pigeons.
oh ye ranters and ravers
please realise wendy cant count
all she can do is write
and if she can have all of you intelligent guys
foaming about her rather absurd conclusions
she will be celebrating the sweet ring of the cash register.
and then maybe wendy will count.
the silver i mean.
and stop being so sensitive.
nobody can take your worship away or your gods.
and you know that.
why then make such a fuss.
as we tell our children,,,ignore the provocateur.
can we grow up please?

Kumar said:

"Kumar said:
"Calling her 'dishonest' is a cheap shot and ad hominem attack which only demeans the attacker."

False. She is dishonest. Ascribing to Valmiki portions of Uttara Charitra is dishonest. Calling her dishonest is speaking the truth based on evidence and facts. Calling Enron CEO Ken Lay, a fraudster is the truth.

You tell us what to call a 'scholar' who misrepresents Valmiki?

Kumar, you STILL haven't answered the above question.

Seshadri,

>> unless the world involved is that of idiots only, not those whom faruqi usually calls idiots.

You call a person an idiot for mistranslating one word, wheras you yourself create a whole tissue of lies through your so-called 'sanskritizations' as well as through you prism of hatred!

>>Can Madam Reddy ask similar questions just by changing names from Hindu Gods to the other TRUE prophets?

Ask when the same theme is equally relevant to understanding the narrative in other religions....and such questions aren't raised. Until then, I'll withhold my judgment. But you won't...so knock yourself out.

>>So what? Why so? Why should you discuss if Rama is a sex addict or if he screwed Sita enough and left her after that.

oh ye from the land of the numbnuts, her chastity was the reason for her agni-pariksha; and even after she passes, the ayodhyans aren't buying it. Persistent rumors about her chastity lead her banishment to the forest...in other words, oh ye numbnuts, her chastity and questions surrounding it is a key theme in Yuddha and Uttara Kandas without which the story makes no sense.

>>Have you ever saw books or discussions or articles if Jesus is deranged or Virgin Mary is a slut? Have you? Did he fake his death and if resurrection is a trick? If you do, please let me know. Those issues are pointless and irrelevant.

Yet, you raise them.

>>The reason these people like Sheela Reddy or Wendy do these things about Hinduism is because they want to the superiority of their religions over others and Christians want to convert people.

can I send you anti-paranoia tablets as an act of charity?

>>Some useless person wrote a useless book. I don't care what Wendy thinks about Sita or Rama.

Yet, you expend all this energy on her ostensibly worthless opinion!!!!

>>People who want to believe will believe.

so, take a deep breath and chill.

>>Why bother to interview this person and conduct an interview which basically bashes Hindu beliefs or bashes any one who questions the books.

Because it is interesting analysis and additional insight with the added bonus of driving a few people frothing-at-the-moouth-mad...

>>It is because people such as Ms. Reddy have an agenda: bad mouth Hindus and make ground for conversions.

I thought you said people will believe what they believe....whatever happened to such conviviality? Is it, as I suspected, merely a pose?

Sandy:>>"Did anyone notice that Outlook has edited the interview to correct one stupid remark made by Wendy which showed her knowledge in Sanskrit language.
In the first version she had translated Kama Asaktha as 'Hopless sex addict'. Anyone with a small amount of knowledge in Sanskrit(or most Indian languages) can figure out the actual meaning. now they have changed it to Kama- atma - 'entirely consumed by Kama'. The hilarious part is that this translation is also wrong"

thanks for the points you have made. when I read it, the word was given only as 'kama-sakta' to mean sex-adict only. perhaps someone pointed out the correct version from the original. if the exact poem mumber is given, any one can verify from the gorakhpur edition of valmiki ramayan. calling some half-learned as world-renowned is ridiculous, unless the world involved is that of idiots only, not those whom faruqi usually calls idiots.

it is true that laxman was very angry with his own dad, when he came to know that he had asked ram to go to forest under pressure from kaikeyi. he might have implied that it was done bec of dad's infatuation for kaikeyi, if he was not aware of dasaratha's boons to kaikeyi. but, my own view is that he might have said 'karma-sakta', if laxman had known that dasaratha had a curse from a rishi for his dying by separation from his son, a 'karma' bind on him.

magazines like outlook should understand that there are still some truly devout and knowledgeable hindus around, who know their rama and sita, historically and spiritually. tricks thro mercenary jewesses may not work, nor any treatises by rascal journos. Perhaps, half a century later, if the anti-hindu paid-pipers for the conv/conq-relig forces still survive, by then.

It is interesting that outlook, after earning Sita's curse [like ayodhya itself] thro a slander on her story, has published a long speech by kadju on the glory of sanskrit, perhaps to soothe sentiments of the devout adherents of hindu philo and indic cultures.
mischievous monkeys will only have their tails cut, by God himself, sooner or later. They should learn from what happened to ysr.

Kumar

>>As I said, you have to first look at the whole picture of the whole world first. You will in fact see that Islam is the most attacked/criticized religion. Very less about Hinduism in comparison. That is again because of the worldwide context. The context, composition, general beliefs etc of any specific groups including that of media of various countries varies vastly. For example, the secular establishment of many countries spend all their time feeling free to attack/ridicule Christianity while not saying much about any other religions etc. Also each religion is unique in its own way rendering to various kinds of criticisms in various contexts.

It is totally wrong. No one attacks Christianity or Christ in any country. I have never seen such viciousness as these so called scum literary works and scoundrels like Ms. Reddy or Ms. Wendy talking about if Jesus is God or if he is some kind of sex addict or if resurrection is a lie. I travel a lot to Europe and US. No where I see those debates or attacks as suggested by you. It is a total LIE.

The debate in the US is about Creationism vs. Evolution. The religious faithful in Christianity never accept we have come from monkeys. One look at the intelligence of Wendy or Sheela Reddy or jokers on this forum dissing other religions, we can infer that we came from monkeys. lol...

>>Each religion is different and the questions that are generally asked about each religion is different. She is quoting/citing what is in the book or implied in the book. The world over, such questioning/comments happens a lot on all religions. For the sake of argument, let us say that she believes that one should feel free to comment on ones own religion. So what? Or let us say that she thinks that talking about Hinduism is what is more relevant in the context of India. So what?

So what? Why so? Why should you discuss if Rama is a sex addict or if he screwed Sita enough and left her after that. Have you ever saw books or discussions or articles if Jesus is deranged or Virgin Mary is a slut? Have you? Did he fake his death and if resurrection is a trick? If you do, please let me know. Those issues are pointless and irrelevant. The reason these people like Sheela Reddy or Wendy do these things about Hinduism is because they want to the superiority of their religions over others and Christians want to convert people. That is the essence of gospel. Spread the religion.

Some useless person wrote a useless book. I don't care what Wendy thinks about Sita or Rama. People who want to believe will believe. Why bother to interview this person and conduct an interview which basically bashes Hindu beliefs or bashes any one who questions the books. It is because people such as Ms. Reddy have an agenda: bad mouth Hindus and make ground for conversions.

Selvan,

>> In India in mainstream media??.. That is news to me

First of all, expand your thinking and view to the whole world. There are hundred and thousands of people all over the world who write against all religions. So, it is no big deal. If you narrow it down to any specific group (including the media of various countries), you will find that the specific group, due to specific context of that group etc may talk more about one as compared to the other and so on. As for violent reactions by violent extremist groups, forcing a law and order situation etc, that is a shame on those religions and the religious leaders should condemn it (which unfortunately does not happen very often).

Kumar,

>>What is your definition of a good intention? For example, if someone suggests that the Biblical Creation story is a Myth, is that a good intention or a bad intention?

You can deduce the intention of someone, if you follow their work closely. This is purely my opinion on Wendy.

>>Presenting a thesis or a hypothesis or to present ones observations etc is perfectly valid (which is of course subject to critical analysis, rebuttals etc). For example, if someone says that Muhammad was more peaceful in pre-hijra days because he was in a weak position (as compared to later days when he had a following), that is an interpretation of the events. Many people do that kind of stuff. It is up to the reader to accept or reject it and the critic can provide counter arguments on why it is not so etc.

Unfortunately, she is not presenting her thought as ‘hypotheses’. Putting the pieces together in a puzzle means solving the puzzle. Sadly, she does not solve anything. I don’t hold any grudge against Wendy. People have to earn their living, don’t they? If it is Rama who helps her to make ends meet, then so be it.

Sandy,

>> .. Wendy's intentions doesn't seem to be good.

What is your definition of a good intention? For example, if someone suggests that the Biblical Creation story is a Myth, is that a good intention or a bad intention?

>> The way she says that 'I am taking pieces of Ramayana and putting them together ', as if her's is 'the' true story.

Presenting a thesis or a hypothesis or to present ones observations etc is perfectly valid (which is of course subject to critical analysis, rebuttals etc). For example, if someone says that Muhammad was more peaceful in pre-hijra days because he was in a weak position (as compared to later days when he had a following), that is an interpretation of the events. Many people do that kind of stuff. It is up to the reader to accept or reject it and the critic can provide counter arguments on why it is not so etc.

Did anyone notice that Outlook has edited the interview to correct one stupid remark made by Wendy which showed her knowledge in Sanskrit language.
In the first version she had translated Kama Asaktha as 'Hopless sex addict'. Anyone with a small amount of knowledge in Sanskrit(or most Indian languages) can figure out the actual meaning. now they have changed it to Kama- atma - 'entirely consumed by Kama'. The hilarious part is that this translation is also wrong. ROTFL

*********
There are hundreds and thousands of people who write "blasphemous" things about Islam and Christianity and all other religions.
*********

In India in mainstream media??.. That is news to me.

One editor re-published an article by a London atheist in Calcutta and he was promptly arrested. :-)

I don't think there is one person who writes blasphemous things in Indian media and then walks free.

You are making this up.

>>I suppose there was no hope of a grown-up response from you.

I can't wait for your example...

>>Your responses remain as hilarious as ever. It marks you out as an ass.

Your second sentence is unaware of the hilarity in your first sentence...learn how to tie your sentences together.

>>There should not be any eed to argue for fairness in historical or political polemical writing. Fairness is actually in the interest of anyone making a case. It greatly increases the chances of the case being taken seriously.

Since you are pleading for fairness, I'll assume you are the same clown in a different ID.

>>In a country like India, where Hinduism is locked in tense contest for hearts and minds with Islam and Christianity, and where all issues relating to religion are such intense matters of controversy,

Yes.

>>it is only sensible for a historian not to depict one religion as uniquely depraved or deficient,

that's her area of expertise moron....

>>when it is the case that the faults of that religion are shared by its rivals.

state them and make your case...instead of getting weepy about being unfairness...

>>Doniger's book is over 780 pages; a few pages devoted to acknowledging that it is not only Hinduism which is mythological, but also Christianity and Islam, would have made her a much more serious scholar.

A serious scholar stays within her province of expertise; throwing gratuitous bones to hungry dogs like you is precisely how scholars lose their credibility

>>If you have to say fairness in polemics does not matter, what you are really saying is that you have conceded the argument.

fairness never takes the backseat for evidence and never takes into your consideration your tendency to whine..

>>My heroes are the Israeli archaelogists who have had the incredible guts to admit, after years of painstaking effort, that the Old Testament's claims to being serious history are bunkum.

build them a shrine....

>>Uri Avneri details this in this week's Outlook. There is no evidence of an Exodus, of Moses, of the kingdom of David or even of David, ever having existed.

Then that should really piss you off about the influence of a nonexistent fiction...

>>That puts paid to Christianity and Islam as historically based religions.

yawn....as if Uri and you are the first to make such claims...

>>What of the Ten Commandments if there was no Moses?!

Start rewriting them to saying thou shalt commit murder and adultery etc. etc. and see how many takers there are.

>>If the archaelogists had found evidence validating the Old Testament stories, I would have admired them.

I think they'll stumble through their lives without your admiration.

>>Infinitely more is my awe of their intellectual integrity when they frankly admit that the historical basis of the beliefs that are so important for their tiny besieged country are totally absent.

if that is true, be patient until it becomes a consensus...

>>Such greatness of soul! No wonder I admire Israel.

don't fool yourself. Your admiration has nothing to do with it...but everything with they are locked in a political contest with your boogeymen...the musalmans.

>>It makes the Arabs and the Agustuses look like vapid pygmies.

wow! A great civilization (albeit one that fizzled out) and I put on an equal par....your talent for inadvertent complements is unending.

>>some clown obliquely raised the question of how historicity of historical persons is established as historicity of Rama is a relevant point of discussion on this thread..Adam and Eve aren't relevant to this discussion.

Do you see the gaping hole in your argument? If not, let me put it in simple terms. When someone asks you about Jesus’ historicity, you answered because, I presume, you believe Jesus is a historical figure. Most Christians believe that Old Testament is history, much like a significant number of Hindus’ belief in Ramayana. So, if you believe Adam and Eve are not relevant to the discussion, so is Jesus and shouldn’t have taken up Jesus’ historicity.

>>I couldn't care less about what you couldn't care less about.

Fair enough.

>>Your intellectual insecurity is showing

Oh really? Are you implying that I feel threatened by your knowledge on Hinduism? Oh I am scared; the master of Hindu literature Agustus is here!

>>I am pointing out what constitutes valid criticism and what doesn't

While we have seen you pointing out many ‘invalid’ criticisms against Wendy, we are yet to see you pointing out the valid ones. Did I miss it by any chance?

>>>besides, you have yet to demonstrate encyclopedic knowledge of Hinduism which you claim to possess by implication?

Are you a mind reader now? I can easily say A’s knowledge is little, implying that A’s knowledge is little compared to B. So, let me make it clear for you, I didn’t compare your knowledge on Hinduism with mine (which you already judged as insecure anyway)

>>Bring them up on a relevant thread, I'll take you to school then.

It is impossible to have a discussion with someone, who decides that uncomfortable questions are off topic!

>>I can't say that I am the world's foremost authority on it; in fact, I am willing to bet all the testicles of the male members of your family that I am not.

Ha Ha, what to say, shows your standard. Resort to such language and most people will just ignore you.

>>However, I know what is relevant criticism and what is ignorant criticism of Doniger's analysis.

So you think!

>>Don't just shoot and scoot. I shoot and shoot and shoot.
Yeah, you shoot alright but all blank shots buddy.

Vikas Aggarwal,

>> Will this sandeep duggal now deny this letter?

Why should he deny?

>> Will he dare right something so blasphemous about Islam? Or christianty? if he has guts, let him write such things about mohammad and mother mary.

There are hundreds and thousands of people who write "blasphemous" things about Islam and Christianity and all other religions.

>> these desh drohis should go and settle down in pakistan or any other islamic country where the pure will teach them all about religion

You are also trying to do exactly what you claim people in Pakistan will do. So you can join such people to attack people who write "blasphemous" things about religion.

>> Wendy's intentions doesn't seem to be good.

Maybe and maybe not. I am not sure.

>> Anwaar says he is not sure if Wendy has an agenda. Of course there is an agenda....Sundeep Dougal ....is a known baiter of Lord Rama and Ramayana.

There is a schism in Hindu society, as in most societies. The modernist Hindu would like to emulate westerners who applauded Serrano's picture of Christ in a bottle of urine. The Hindutwadi Hindu would like to emulate the frenzied Muslim crowds flailing their fists at Danish embassies for the cartoons.

********
Will this sandeep duggal now deny this letter? Will he dare right something so blasphemous about Islam? Or christianty? if he has guts, let him write such things about mohammad and mother mary
*******

he..he.. these guys wear their purdahs and hide under the bed when it comes to any issue surrounding the TRUE religions..

You are asking a question for which you know the answer already. Some time back an editor in Calcutta got arrested for publishing an article written by an atheist for offending the sensibilities of you know who. :-)

And there was pin drop silence from the "secular" media except a couple of softly softly articles in Outlook and blogs. I doubt even if that was Web only or really saw the print edition.

Their secularism stops with allowing comments that we make.

I'm happy that we are still given rights to comment rather than being branded the EVIL HINDUTVADIS who are the real threats to the entire milky way.

:-)

Anwaar says he is not sure if Wendy has an agenda. Of course there is an agenda. Vinod Mehta has on purpose kept this Sundeep Dougal in charge here as he is a known baiter of Lord Rama and Ramayana. Leave this Wendy alone. She is a firangi. Look at what the editor of this website himself had written:

Hussain's Sita

May 14, 1998

To The Editor,
The Pioneer,
New Delhi.

Sir,

Re: Sita is the centre of consciousness
Opinion / Sandhya Jain The Pioneer, May 14, 1998

Ms. Sandhya Jain asserts that "Hindus cannot with equanimity countenance the thought of her [Sita] being depicted clinging to the tale of an adult monkey for the sake of artistic revelry!"

I beg to submit that any Hindu well acquainted with our mythological traditions would - or, at least, should - have no trouble in countenancing any such image.

Without having seen the impugned lithograph, and despite Ms. Jain's attempted lurid (and may I add, rather ludicrous) description, the image it conjures up in my mind is the scene in the Sundara-Kanda of Valmiki's Ramayana, where Hanuman after tracing Sita in Ashoka grove of Ravana's Lanka, suggests to her:

(all quotes from the Ramayana of Valmiki, trans. P.Lal)

"Climb on my back, devi, and I will take you back to Rama. I will fly over the ocean. No one in Lanka will dare pursue us."

And Sita says:

"I now see that you are indeed capable of carrying me away from here. But I must think of the consequences. I do not think that it is right that I should go with you. Supposing your wind-swift speed makes me giddy and I tumble off your back into the shark-and-crocodile-infested sea? I cannot go with you. You will be in danger. The rakshasas will rally and attack you, and when you engage in combat with them, what will happen to me? What will I do?"

Now, is it not possible to view this painting under question as an apt illustration for this incident? Couldn't Sita be clutching onto the tail out of sheer, to use her words, giddiness?

To interpret Hanuman's tail as a phallic symbol is absurd, and I dare say that it requires a rather well-developed prurient flight of fantasy to do so. However, even if it is indeed taken as a phallic symbol, I am sure devout Hindus, who worship Shiva's Phallus on a daily basis, should have no problem with it as Sita is an established Shiva bhagtin. Besides, Rama always carries a golden Shiva Lingam with him.

And, Hanuman, at least as per Shiva Purana, is the simiesque incarnation of Shiva. [And while we are on Shiva Purana, may I point out that Hindus seem to have had no trouble with the depiction of Vishnu who, in the guise of Mohini the sensuous dancer arouses Shiva so much that he ejaculates the semen later used to produce Hanuman] Even for the conservative Hindu, isn't it a just validation that the phallus-worshipper is shown getting rescued by clinging to the tail, the alleged phallic symbol?

Now, let's come to nudity. Even Ms. Jain's description makes this much clear that the painting does not show any frontal nudity (not that we Hindus are any strangers to it) and that perhaps is why far fetched, fantastical symbolism is being imputed. Wouldn't a Hindu recognise Sita's nudity as a portrayal of her helplessness and shame? (Shouldn't Hanuman devotees, which Bajrang Dal - named as it is after Bajrangbali - members all should be, instead take serious umbrage at this depraved description of Hanuman's tail as a phallic symbol?)

On the other hand, Valmiki's Ramayana is quite, shall we say, racy and graphically descriptive on the abundant charms of Sita. Consider this sample passage, picked very much at random, from Aranya-Kanda:

"Tapering and graceful are your thighs like an elephant's trunk,
Rounded and ample are your hips,
Large and firm are your breasts touching each other,
Painted and prominent their nipples,
Two smooth,round fruits of the
Tala tree pretty with pearls."
Or consider this self-description by Sita in Yuddha Kanda:
"My breasts, hands, feet, thighs,
Are all symmetrical,
My breasts touch each other
And have depressed nipples,
My navel is set deep In my shapely stomach,
Well-fleshed are my breasts
And ample thighs,
My skin-hair is soft, My complexion pearl bright..."

What is this? Eroticism? Pornography? Sensuality? Celebration or prurient sexual objectification of the female form? Should the Bajrang Dal and their spokeswoman, Ms. Jain, not demand that all copies of Valmiki's Ramayan be banned? For, after all he seems to be having an "artistic revelry" alright, doesn't he?

To pick up yet another random quote from her amazingly, nay, appallingly, revisionist account, "Sita could not be touched by another man, even one who addressed her as "mother," says Ms. Jain, "even Ravana, when he abducted her, is said to have done so by lifting the earth under her feet." Without getting into petty pedantries like how Hanuman is not a man but a god, or mentioning Luv-Kush, may I very respectfully point out that all Ramayana scholars are unanimous that this myth is a much later interpolation, perhaps by those patriarchal priests who wanted to project the chastity of the Ideal Indian Woman in such a fashion that it became that much easier for a husband to leave her if she had been as much as touched by another!

It is clear in Valmiki (3.47) that Ravana did touch her. One doesn't have to go to obscure, scholarly texts to reach this conclusion. Two of the most popular, widely available and respected translations of Ramayana into English, P.Lal's and C.Rajagopalachari's explicitly mention Ravana picking Sita up and pulling her hair. Ms. Jain's version is the ploy introduced in Kamban's Tamil version perhaps because, as Rajaji points out, putting yet another spin on it, it is "less painful to our feelings." Valmiki's Ramayan is unambiguous on this score: "Quickly Ravana reached out and seized gentle Sita. He was inflamed by passion. His left hand pulled at lotus-eyed Sita's hair, his right grasped her thigh."

Sacrilege! Blasphemy!! Shouldn't we ban the book? At least burn a few copies? Since we can't lynch the author, let's go for the translators, publishers and so on? Ah, so we are gonna apply the ancient Indian art of fudging here, are we? And argue, after Tulsi Das's Ramcharitmanas that this was not Sita but Chaya (shadow) Sita? Which is first mentioned, I think, in the Kurmapurana, where it is Agni who creates the shadow, while she is in heaven awaiting the outcome of the battle. But then, it could be argued, couldn't it, that if the Sita seized and carried off by Ravana wasn't the real Sita, it follows that the one clutching Hanuman's tail, in this disputed lithograph, is not the real Sita either? Couldn't she just be the Chaya or Maya Sita? Besides, Hanuman is not touching her, it is she who is holding on to his tail. Where is the problem?

Indeed, many of the eastern Ramayanas in Bengali, Oriya and Assamese take a radically different approach by suggesting that it was Sita herself who arranged the abduction, such as Durgavara's Giti Ramayana, in which Rama tells Lakshmana that Sita sent him into the forest after the deer intentionally, so that she could "elope" with the demon. He then calls her-and, by extension, all women-"fickle" (sahaje cancala tiri jati) and accuses her of having a "devious heart" (kapata hridaya). The list goes on and on...

Why, in Valmiki's Ramayan itself, Rama says to Sita: (Yuddha Kanda):

"Ravana looked lustfully
At you, clutched you tight
In his arms... ...
Choose Lakshmana or Bharata,
Whoever you please,
Or Shatrughana, Sugriva,
Or the rakshasha Vibhishana.
The choice is yours, Sita.
You are so lovely,
So mind alluring,
How could Ravana
Have controlled himself
And not enjoyed you?"

All of the above is presumably not indecent art and doesn't hurt religious sentiments? I wonder what does? Khajurao and Konark don't. Ajanta and Ellora don't. Why, even Irawati Karve's Yuganta, Pratibha Ray's Yajnaseni or even the hilarious take off on Mahabharata in Kundan Shah's Jaane Bhi Do Yaro don't. But Hussain certainly seems to, each time he paints a Hindu goddess.

I think it is disingenuous on the part of Ms. Jain to have us believe that because the Muslim community has distanced itself from the controversy, it follows that Hussain is not being singled out because of his merely being a Muslim. Sure, there may be other reasons. Like his having acquired a "secular" image till recently, and perhaps the fundamentalists, of any hue, do not like a successful Indian to project this image? Particularly, in Bombay, er, sorry, Mumbai.

Otherwise, why did Bal Thackeray have to say: "If Husain can step into Hindustan, what is wrong if we enter his house?" I wonder. And our "secular, liberal" Prime Minister may have denounced the ransacking of Hussain's house, but the BJP chief Thakre was on national TV only yesterday to say that Hussain should stop painting "our" gods and goddesses. And that his paintings are insulting and that it is only natural for "our" people to get upset.

And all this after Hussain's statement in the current Frontline, where he was reported to have said, "Yes, I have offered to face an agni pariksha. I have made the suggestion earlier." As Frontline reported: "His suggestion envisages the setting up of a committee of three persons - an art critic, a lawyer and a representative of the Vishwa Hindu Parishad - which could go through his entire collection. Husain said that he was prepared to destroy immediately any work that the committee found objectionable."

It is perhaps this attitude, which makes his case not analogous to the d'affaire Rushdie, regarding Satanic Verses. While I can understand Ms. Jain's justifiable ire against those who demanded a ban against the Rushdie book but seem to support Hussain and freedom of expression, I would like to point out that there are a substantial number in India and abroad who were upset at the undue haste with which the then Indian government had banned the Rushdie book, and who also do not think that Hussain's Draupadi or Saraswati or "Rescued Sita" were "indecent art hurting religious sensibilities" but who are indeed "shocked and offended" at the recent attempts in Bombay, in particular, to curb freedom of expression. They are outraged. [Please read Outlook, May 18, for details]. What are they? Ignorable?

It is not just the Hussain-affair, but everything that has become an "intra-Hindu" affair. As for the prominent Muslims keeping away, remember what the noted historian Mushirul Hassan had to go through at the time of the Rushdie crisis? Does it occur to commentators like Ms. Jain who, by the way, do not even utter a token word against the taking of the law of the land in one's own hands, that perhaps some of the Muslim intelligentsia may just be weary of speaking up, lest it means swift reprisals against a whole community in general?

"One country, one culture." The "culture" of Hindutava versus the "amoral Hindu intellectuals" and the 'double-tongued' secularists and liberalists. The criteria in view of the emerging recognition of "real, politik" seems simple: those for Hussain are the baddies and those against him, the good, even the "honourable" Muslims. Real Politik, someone had said?

The point in the end is that it is about the changing face of Bombay into Mumbai, of India into Hindu-staan, and it isn't the "this-side-of-Indus" definition of "Hindu" but a regressive, retrograde and repelling definition that seeks to snap our ties from the plurality of our tradition to the singularity of anti-seculars, as evidenced by the dropping of even the token prefix "pseudo" that used to be reserved for people who disagreed with the "Hinduttava" brand of politics from such effusions as Ms. Jain's. Is this by design or accident? I wonder.

Undoubtedlly, Sita is a powerful symbol in our mythology, but it is not just the image perpetuated by the patriarchal premium put on the chastity of "untouched by any but her husband" women. The concerns with Ramayana depicting the loss of female dignity and exculpating the misdemeanours in this field raise questions about promoting further humiliation and exploitation of women. Thanks to the oral traditions, various differing versions of Ramayana stories exist throughout the world, particularly in South East Asia, including the suggestion that Valmiki had borrowed from Homer's Odyssey and Iliad or the Buddhist "Dashratha Jataka" traditions where Rama and Sita are siblings and so on. Why, in some traditions, even some Quranic verses are echoed in the dialogues between Rama and Lakshmana in the Dandaka forest; and as shown above, Sita is also a sensuous and strong woman who, in some traditions is and slayer of the thousand-faced Ravana and saviour of Rama, which is why even he recites her thousand names (Sita-sahasrnama).

We have lived with differing Hindu, Buddhist, Jaina and other versions. The legend has, as is inevitable, undergone many changes. "Like the Purusha's 1000 heads," as K.R. Srinivasa Iyengar writes, "or 1000 feet, equally defying enumeration or comrehension are the thematic changes, adaptations, elaborations, deviations, transmigrations and even Bottom-like 'translations' of the original Ramayana legend." Who is to know which one Hussain was inspired by?

Besides, the painting was done 20 years ago. And the recent exhibition was in Delhi whereas the ransacking by Bajrang Dal took place in Bombay. Surely, they had not been to the exhibition in Delhi and outraged by the painting? Doesn't exactly take genius to conclude that they were incited and that it was a political stunt in keeping with later Thackeray and Thakre utterances. To support the Bajrang Dal's purported offended sensibility is to open a Pandora's box for anybody taking the law in one's own hand.

And lastly, the characters, icons or motifs of mythologies (Christain, Greek, or Indian or others) do not belong to any one religion. They are parts of our literary and other artistic traditions, our common heritage.

Yours etc. Sundeep Dougal New Delhi -110017 India

--

Will this sandeep duggal now deny this letter? Will he dare right something so blasphemous about Islam? Or christianty? if he has guts, let him write such things about mohammad and mother mary. these desh drohis should go and settle down in pakistan or any other islamic country where the pure will teach them all about religion

Anwar,

>>>>>Western scholars achieving scholarship in Sanskrit and Hinduism is a good thing. We should of course feel free to discuss whether she is right or wrong. She has a point of view, but I am not sure if she has an agenda.>>>

While it is a good trend that more and more westerners are learning about our culture, Wendy's intentions doesn't seem to be good. The way she says that 'I am taking pieces of Ramayana and putting them together ', as if her's is 'the' true story. Even Valmiki would not have made a claim like that.

Kumar

>> She could have asked a question saying "Hindu faithful are attacking you". But no... The Hindu right

>>>>It would be an insult to the entire "Hindu faithful" if she asked like that. Many Hindus would accept the freedom to present ones thesis on a religion etc. One can always counter argue or rebut etc.

Why? Accept or oppose. It is freedom of every body. Criticizing is every one's right. Just because you tolerate doesn't make you Hindu faithful and others Hindu right-wing or lunatics. Every religion operates on faith. It is only matter of how strong you believe. Some people don't want to question beliefs. Some people don't care.


>> Right now in India, frauds on Hindu and Anti-Hindu side ...

>>>>That’s an interesting way of looking at people (like dar al-Islam and dar al-harb). Which of those two sides do you belong?

The frauds are there to grab power by inciting trouble with the help of sympathizers and corrupt media barons. Inciting Islam/Anti-Islam, Hindu/Anti-Hindu is a way to grab power. As you frauds such as Sheela Reddy, Prannay Roys of NDTV or OutllokIndia's Mehta, IndianExpress's Sekhar Gupta ... all these guys work with establishment/Congress so as to divide people and put political arguments centered around anti-hindu/pro-minority rhetoric. OTOH, there are media outlets sympathetic to BJP which will keep the pot boiling to do the same on pro-hindu and anti-islamic rhetoric. The final aim of these frauds is to never allow debate about the political fraud, administrative/legal/economic reforms needed in this country to make it an accountable society.

When will these frauds realize that we need structural reforms in this democracy to survive?
Look at all these comments. I observe with sadness how people are falling into the trap of arguments: this religion vs. that religion after seeing this interview. This is exactly the frauds such as Sheela Reddy or Outlookindia want. Keep their favorite political leaders in power by diverting the attention of the issues of governance. let people fight in the name of religion and hate each other and these frauds can garner cookies thrown by their favorite political leaders.

Gayatri/Lalit,

>> some time ago you said that you have seen fitna, and advised your muslim friends to do the same.

Muslims should see both Wilder's "Fitna" and van Gogh's "Submission" in order to better fight those hateful wahabi imams who have infiltrated the mosques in England and elsewhere. That does not mean I endorse the hate agenda of Wilders. I would not like anyone to make a film on the worst aspects of Christianity or Hinduism and then go about promoting it from city to city. Why do you think Wilders made 20 trips to Israel during the time he was making the movie in the Netherlands?

Varun,

>> The question is why Doniger is so bothered about Hinduism or more precisely its perceived political representatives.

Western scholars achieving scholarship in Sanskrit and Hinduism is a good thing. We should of course feel free to discuss whether she is right or wrong. She has a point of view, but I am not sure if she has an agenda.

Aziz Afif,

>> Doniger's book is over 780 pages; a few pages devoted to acknowledging that it is not only Hinduism which is mythological, but also Christianity and Islam, would have made her a much more serious scholar.

That is a pretty silly thing to say. There are many books which are critical of Islam for example. Do they all have to have a few pages saying that the criticism applies to Hinduism, Christianity, Buddhism, Sikhism, Jainism etc as well? Or did the “Israeli archeologists” whom you quoted spent a "few pages" saying something about all other religions in this world?

AUGUSTUS AAA:

I suppose there was no hope of a grown-up response from you.

Your responses remain as hilarious as ever. It marks you out as an ass.

There should not be any eed to argue for fairness in historical or political polemical writing. Fairness is actually in the interest of anyone making a case. It greatly increases the chances of the case being taken seriously.

In a country like India, where Hinduism is locked in tense contest for hearts and minds with Islam and Christianity, and where all issues relating to religion are such intense matters of controversy, it is only sensible for a historian not to depict one religion as uniquely depraved or deficient, when it is the case that the faults of that religion are shared by its rivals.

Doniger's book is over 780 pages; a few pages devoted to acknowledging that it is not only Hinduism which is mythological, but also Christianity and Islam, would have made her a much more serious scholar.

If you have to say fairness in polemics does not matter, what you are really saying is that you have conceded the argument.

My heroes are the Israeli archaelogists who have had the incredible guts to admit, after years of painstaking effort, that the Old Testament's claims to being serious history are bunkum. Uri Avneri details this in this week's Outlook. There is no evidence of an Exodus, of Moses, of the kingdom of David or even of David, ever having existed. That puts paid to Christianity and Islam as historically based religions. What of the Ten Commandments if there was no Moses?!

If the archaelogists had found evidence validating the Old Testament stories, I would have admired them. Infinitely more is my awe of their intellectual integrity when they frankly admit that the historical basis of the beliefs that are so important for their tiny besieged country are totally absent. Such greatness of soul! No wonder I admire Israel. It makes the Arabs and the Agustuses look like vapid pygmies.

Vivek,

>> She could have asked a question saying "Hindu faithful are attacking you". But no... The Hindu right

It would be an insult to the entire "Hindu faithful" if she asked like that. Many Hindus would accept the freedom to present ones thesis on a religion etc. One can always counter argue or rebut etc.

>> Right now in India, frauds on Hindu and Anti-Hindu side ...

That’s an interesting way of looking at people (like dar al-Islam and dar al-harb). Which of those two sides do you belong?

Here is my 2 cents...

Every religion is a myth. Religions are borne out of human necessity to interpret the meaning of life or control human behavior through fear of God. Religion was then used as a tool to control masses or people got rich using religion. All religions are sort of evolved. Bible was rewritten and rewritten before the final version is accepted as final truth. There were thousands of sects in Christianity. Every one has exaggerated the Bible and story of Christ differently. Hinduism is of course no different. There were revision after revision on epics such as Mahabharat and Ramayan in different places especially in south. The stories in Judaism or Hinduism or Christianity are not believable. Most are outright lies and exaggerations. Is it possible a virgin to conceive a child. Christians believe that Virgin Mary conceived Jesus. Hindus believe that Kunti is a virgin but conceived Karna. There is no logic to these stories. No wonder more people describe themselves as non-religious but spiritual.

Now comes another fraud Wendy with what she feels are great insights. She is another freak trying to make money by creating controversy. The funny thing is she tries to interpret the meaning for behavior of people who we don't even know exist or not. She even goes on commenting on how many times Rama and Sita were doing. Ha Ha Ha... Do people really want to know Virgin Mary was knocked up or if Jesus banged any one? Did Jesus have kids as some sects claim? What about Kunti? Did she have artificial insemination? Ha Ha Ha.. Did Moses really turn river of water into blood?

Enter Sheela Reddy, another fraud, Hindu-baiting woman posing as some kind of journalist. She could have asked a question saying "Hindu faithful are attacking you". But no... The Hindu right wing blah blah... Oh my God! Look at those bad Hindus! They are attacking you.

This is another ploy by hateful minority and institutionalized Hindu hating community. I know most minorities in AP have utter disdain and hatred for Hinduism. My professor in Engineering College used to call us to his room and argue with us why Krishna is not a God because he said he is not a God in Gita. My question to him was: Do you believe everything in Gita? That shut him at least up in front of me.

Religions work based on faith. If you start applying logic to religions, every religion is a fraud. Christianity is a fraud. Islam is a fraud. Judaism is a fraud. Hinduism is a fraud. Lets not go there Wendy and Sheela!

I don't believe in religion. But I don't have a problem with faithful who want to keep it personal. Right now in India, frauds on Hindu and Anti-Hindu side are using Hindu religion as a means to grab political power. Sheela Reddy is one such fraud. Hope people realize these frauds and keep away from religious arguments. These frauds have no problem when a Church commands people to vote a for a person.

faruki

some time ago you said that you have seen fitna, and
advised your muslim friends to do the same.

WHY. ?

i have nothing against wendy,s book- i had nothing against deepa mehtas film- water which showed the
pitiful state of hindu widows. i have not said a word
against hussain the painter for his depiction of
hindu godesses.

i dont need to see fitna, or read more on the subject
of islam- it is the papers every day. brutal killings,
flogging of women, and the breath takeing fanaticism.

its absolutely shameless to ignore this and concentrate
on what churchill said 50 years ago.

by the way sandilya sent an excerpt of churchills speech, in which he explained his reasons for staying
on as the power in delhi. it would have been good, but
gandhi was too stubborn.

today pakistan would have been better off under a colonial govt. they seem incapable of maintaining even
a semblance to a stable society.

when do you plan to leave racist usa- ?

>> >> Calling her 'dishonest' is a cheap shot and ad hominem attack which only demeans the attacker

>> She is dishonest

Every writer knows fully well that people will critically scrutinize the work. So someone who is seen as a scholar or wants to be seen as a scholar would not deliberately misrepresent anything (it is a different matter if a person presents oneself as merely a rhetorical propagandist like political ideologues who incite people etc and not as a serious scholar. That is a different category). In any case, there can be arguments, rebuttals, counter arguments or even a admission of error etc. That is all part of the debate. That is a process of debate where a legitimate argument will be separated from an illegitimate argument. So, it is no big deal even if one or two points are mistaken etc (even assuming that is the case), the truth and the arguments that have merit will surface and that is what is important. The process has to continue therefore. The issue is not personally about Wendy. If her facts/arguments etc are found to be unworthy (as a result of the debate), they will be discarded. If even some of the facts/arguments are found to be worthy, they will be accepted. No big deal. But the emotional outbursts and reactions are immature.

Islamic terrorists and communists have destroyed far more property and more lives, than the so called Hindu nationalists. And they continue to do it, day-in, day-out.

Totally false to suggest that Hindu leaders wish to impose ancient, archaic laws, but lack the means. No leader has ever spoken of it. Fact is, the 'Hindu nationalist BJP'( and RSS, VHP etc) is quite comfortable with modern secular laws, with electoral democracy and with pluralism. But it is true that they emphasise the Hindu/Vedic/Sanskritic character of India, more so than other Indian groups and parties. So what?

Kumar said:
"Calling her 'dishonest' is a cheap shot and ad hominem attack which only demeans the attacker."

False. She is dishonest. Ascribing to Valmiki portions of Uttara Charitra is dishonest. Calling her dishonest is speaking the truth based on evidence and facts. Calling Enron CEO Ken Lay, a fraudster is the truth.

You tell us what to call a 'scholar' who misrepresents Valmiki?


"If one can rebut her and show the errors in her work etc, they should do so. If she has no case, she will stand rebutted and exposed for lack of merit."

Read the url I posted. That is already happening.

Read responses by bloggers to her article in Washington Post. These comments were from regular Americans.

BTW, Hindus must start playing OFFENSE and stop whining.

They should start writing books and essays explaining other people's Gods / prophets and their various sexual habits.

That would be too much fun.

******
The question is why Doniger is so bothered about Hinduism or more precisely its perceived political representatives.
******

If everyone is just bothered about just what affects their lives then life would not be colorful. Everyone has a story to tell and if there are willing listeners they would continue to tell their stories.

Doniger (I guess) is doing this for fun. It is the same as why you are (or me) bothered about commenting here.

wW do not have to believe whatever she says as unbiased or it is the truth.

>>Does she see a danger in so called Hindutva or with 'right wing' Hindus, and if so, what precisely is this danger?

Intellectual oppression and threat of violence in service of a sectarian interpretation by a few vocal and murderous thugs of an important piece of literature that is the heritage of a whole culture...

>>Are they a threat to the US, her native country?

No, a crazed chaddi with an egg (or a bullet) is enough...

>>Is there a danger of an imminent massive terrorist strike in some far flung place in the world, at the hands of Hinduism's representatives?

violence against persons and property is enough

>>Are these Hindus planning to impose old, archaic laws on not only other Hindus, but on non-Hindus in different parts of the world?

Not for lack of desire...but lack of ability

>>Have these Hindu leaders declared that they are against democracy and elections?

Yes.

"Lakshman is the one who actually says it. He says the king is hopelessly attached to sensual objects. "

THe quality of "evidence" is really amazing. Lakshman says very harsh things about the king soon after he learns about his decision. People say all kinds of things in moment of anger and grief. The same Laksmana, in the Yuddha Kanda, criticizes dharma(after Rama becomes unconscious). He goes on to say that it is not necessary to be nice, not to do good things etc etc.

The likes of Wendy will offer this as proof that Lakshmana did not care about dharma, that he was fit to follow any way.

That Dasaratha was fond of Kaikeyi is beyond dispute. But that does not make one a sex addict. And words uttered in anger and grief do not constitute proof.

">> how scholars like Doniger carry on with their lectures and judgements, all without any trace of humility.... Live and let live is the best policy.

Good advice for you to follow! Also for Shourie."

The question is why Doniger is so bothered about Hinduism or more precisely its perceived political representatives. Does she see a danger in so called Hindutva or with 'right wing' Hindus, and if so, what precisely is this danger? Are they a threat to the US, her native country? Is there a danger of an imminent massive terrorist strike in some far flung place in the world, at the hands of Hinduism's representatives? Are these Hindus planning to impose old, archaic laws on not only other Hindus, but on non-Hindus in different parts of the world? Have these Hindu leaders declared that they are against democracy and elections? This is why people like Doniger are so presumptuous and unreal. They dredge up a threat, and that too in some distant country, because they feel that their background tells them that such a 'movement' in theory sounds like it could be a threat.

>.When millions in this country have worshiped Ram since times immemorial there must be something very extraordinary about him

I doubt the time immemorial part....but I agree with the rest....just as Shakespeare's literary characters are memorable and still provide us with archetypes. But the issue is whether Rama was a real person or was he a product of literary imagination.

Sandy writes:

>>I am amazed at your tactics of dodging uncomfortable questions.

never shied away from relevant questions on point...

>>You claim Jesus's historicity with great vigour, but ignore the comments about Adam and Eve.

some clown obliquely raised the question of how historicity of historical persons is established as historicity of Rama is a relevant point of discussion on this thread...Adam and Eve aren't relevant to this discussion.

>>Do you really think they were real?

Ask me when that question is relevant to this topic.

>>I couldn't care less about whether Ramayana is true or not.

I couldn't care less about what you couldn't care less about.

>>But you, taking the moral high ground with your little knowledge on Hinduism is deplorable.

Your intellectual insecurity is showing....I am pointing out what constitutes valid criticism and what doesn't....besides, you have yet to demonstrate encyclopedic knowledge of Hinduism which you claim to possess by implication?

>>Would you care to explain the Historicity or reasoning of the Bible, which, in Genesis claims that God made Day and night on the second day of creation while the sun and the Moon on the fourth. Do you believe in the God of Bible who 'repented' that He had made a mistake by creating man? This is just the tip of the iceberg. There are many more illogical statements in the Bible. Since this is not relevant to the current topic, I just gave only two examples.

Bring them up on a relevant thread, I'll take you to school then.

>>If you have proper knowledge on Ramayana, have a meaningful debate here.

I can't say that I am the world's foremost authority on it; in fact, I am willing to bet all the testicles of the male members of your family that I am not. However, I know what is relevant criticism and what is ignorant criticism of Doniger's analysis.

>>Don't just shoot and scoot.

I shoot and shoot and shoot.

When millions in this country have worshiped Ram since times immemorial there must be something very extraordinary about him and I tend to believe that notwithstanding what Wendy has to say. sudhir sharma
there r millions who worship karunanidhi and mayawathi too and they reached this level on their own unlike ram who was a hero in a story and that too just because of his birth. when one has the rights to criticize living real people like maya and karuna its funny to see people arguing that a movie or story character cannot be criticized because it has helped certain castes to enjoy power and privileges

Writing about hindu scriptures requires more than having the English translation ganesan
kindly clarify what one requires

Shiv kumar says" Can we believe Rama and Krishna were born in UP'?
Well if Jesus and Mohamed were born within a short distance in Arabia, why is it so difficult for Ram and Krishan to be bhaiyyas?

As for moving on, they don't stop us.
We stop us and we blame it on others, God like creatures.

As for the truth of the matter neither does Wendy know nor oes Shiv Kumar or me.

If Nehru can't be shown as a carnal man and many of us particularly those in power insist on it then why would we want to do violence to the memory of adored gods or god like humans or incarnations or anything.

Its absurd to talk history and faith in the same breath.
The sooner politicians get out of this closet the better.

Wendy is telling us what she thinks of the Ramayana.
When she says that Lakshmana refers to Dasaratha his father as kama-asakt it may well be because Hinduism propagates monogamy. Dasaratha married Kaikeyi when he was already married. Furthermore kings have been known to be pluralists in marriages all along history. But none have been referred to in this way. Why here? We know that Ram, Lakshman and Sita got driven to the forests and underwent terrible trials and tribulations.All due to the vile and ambition of Kaikeyi to which Dasaratha succumbed tamely. So in his (Lakshman) derision he may have referred to him as a kam-asakt. What would anyone say when you are suffering like that? But if you take that as the truth then how do you explain the sorrow and death of Dasaratha? The characters in Ramayana when viewed in totality seem to have good reason to be what they are. Wendy's spin does not fit well and attracts attention solely due to its shock value and its coming from a non Indian. When millions in this country have worshiped Ram since times immemorial there must be something very extraordinary about him and I tend to believe that notwithstanding what Wendy has to say.

Really we are wasting our time and energy in reading Ramayana or mahabharatha or any other puranas. Ms. Doniger categorically states that Rama of the Ramayana is not a historical character. It is true. What is the point if Rama or Krishna existed to the present time? We mean to say that both Rama and Krishna was born in Uttar Pradesh? We have to live in present times with logical thinking. We should take rational things of past and should leave irrational things.

Wendy
You are free to write whatever you wish and you have. I am enjoying reading it but would you blame me for blaming you for missing the beauty and the great sanctity and sublimity that a hindu feels when he worships.You daren't.

Go beyond the painful reinterpretation, the rather anaemic view of all brahmins and upper classes, the wide eyed approval for the marginalised and see the loveliness where i exists.

And you are being rather elitist when you talk of the doordarshan versions with disdain. They may be a bit too glitzy and long winded for my liking but are quiet Ok for millions.

You must not show disdain for the great Indian middle class. And frankly your interpretation is just that, an interpretation. Your extrapolations are you having fun.
Congratulations on finding publishers and being able to write lots of stuff some admittedly crappy.
Congratulations on bringing the BJP into your comments without bringing in Jehadis, the Congress and missionaries.
Madam you have made a fool of yourself in the interview.
Better to write books than talk to the press. Because your slip really begins to show.

dr s and faruki

geer wilders is a dutch politician and has produced
a film about islam called fitna.

he is or was invited by a english peer to show this
antiislamic film to the house of lords.

geert wilders is under police protection 24 hours of the day, because he speaks openly against islam-not muslims. he has compared the koran to hitlers mein kampf, and a growing number of european thinkers agree with him.

no muslim will face geert wilders in an open debate.
their reaction is typical. kill him, and that was done
to a dutch film producer theo van gogh on a street
in amsterdam a few years ago.

how can faruki talk of hate pracharaks?. muslims today
are free to block roads every friday for their prayers.
they have adopted a completely distinct life style,
which is unacceptable in nonmuslim countries across the world. where are the hate pracharaks- only in faruki,s night mares. on the other hand the world is being ravaged by muslim terrorists, and their hate filled mobs.

if the whites and hindus were such racists and filled
with hate, people like faruki and others like him
would have been expelled after attacks on wtc,
london,madrid, mumbai. it is a sign of the tolerance
and fairness of americans that faruki is allowed to live in usa,and defame white americans. would this be possible in any muslim country.

this is a question i ask faruki and his supporters.

Gajanan,

>> It all depends how you use Animism. If you debunk it as Pagan or idol worshipping , then it is your choice.

I did not and would not debunk either animism or paganism. The reference to animism was in the quote from Jug Suraiya, who too did not debunk it. Thanks for providing the information which is very interesting.

For Seshadri and Anwaar.
The robots of Asimov and western presentations showed Robots in a destructive way. The Japanese used their Animism to design Robots as if they have life, which has made them world leaders in the science of robotics.

It all depends how you use Animism. If you debunk it as Pagan or idol worshipping , then it is your choice , but if you are clever like the Japanese , then the final frontiers of science and technology are at your door step.

See the article below.

Animism and Robotics.

Abstract— Japan is accelerating to create a novel industry called Robot-Technology. It is supported by a social affirmativeness for the new technology. This paper explains how such a social acceptance is made, with the explanation of Japanese Animism, “Rinri (in English, the Ethics)”, and its modernization. These are conditioning Japanese Robotics. In Japan, the traditional rituals are remained strongly in the
ordinary life despite of its advanced technology. Paradoxically, it contributes to advance Japanese Robotics.
See the full paper below.
http://www.roboethic...0Japanese%20Robo.pdf

Seshadri,

>> Only born haters see nothing but hatred.

Hate-pracharaks always deny the hatred in themselves.

>> conversion has become a ‘profession’.

The actions of VHP-ites prove that.

>> Tribal animism also basically Hinduism only.

Everything for you is Hinduism only!

>> There were indications ysr wanted to conv most of AP in his second term...

You seem to see such "indications" everywhere!

>> Deduction is as much valid in logic, as induction.

Your deductions deduct truth out of every proposition.

>>>> ”confidently calling him Skanda”
>> Bec of strong innellectual correlations, spiritual experiences also.

Confidence in such an outlandish proposition is because of stupidity only.

>>>> all humans born hindus only. …..An idiotic lie!”
>> When hinds are born, they are just given names. No baptism, circumscision, formal ‘relig inductions’.

Silly argument. You are catching at straws.

>> I am only a learner-teacher by profession.

You spread ignorance and hate only.

A:>>”You may try to rationalize your hate, but it is not hard to see through your smokescreen”
Only born haters see nothing but hatred, in all others, not conforming with their views.

>>”conversion and reconversion based not on the primacy of an individual's personal belief but on the politics of force”
Unfortunately, conversion has become a ‘profession’, the church itself, a business-corporate, funding politicians of preferred hues, especially since strategic voting, alliances, are found to be very successful. In such situations, politics of force from the other side also becomes justified.

>>”Many of the Christians being ‘reconverted' to Hinduism were never Hindus to begin with, having converted to Christianity from tribal animism."

Tribal animism also basically Hinduism only. The gita wants worship-patterns, even of tribals, to be respected, until they mature to Vedanta, thro self-evolution. That is why Hinduism has left them alone, instead of forcing rama or Siva or devi etc. on them for worship. No need for you to force jesus on them, either..

>>”any evidence that either YSR or Dinakaran is a deliberate converter’

There were indications ysr wanted to conv most of AP in his second term as cm. strong evangs in his family.
The list of trustees on dinakaran’s properties full of church-folk only.

>>”Very selective surmises dictated by your malevolent prejudices!”

Deduction is as much valid in logic, as induction. I have only respect for the non-conv devos of jesus and mary.

>>”confidently calling him Skanda”
Bec of strong innellectual correlations, spiritual experiences also.

>”Are you pretending to be God?”

Humans calling themselves God will only end up as demons destroyed by God. You can wait and watch.

>> all humans born hindus only. …..An idiotic lie!”
When hinds are born, they are just given names. No baptism, circumscision, formal ‘relig inductions’, as in chr or isl.. Special ceremony only for gayatri-mantra taking.
Dravidian Saiva siddhantis so powerful spiritually, they could tune with Siva without need for gaayatri also. Mother india is too old and too strong for you demons to destroy. You will only fail.

>>”You are a crazed hate merchant, really”
I am only a learner-teacher by profession, not a seller of anything. You don’t need to buy my ideas if you are not convinced. I have no hate, even for you/..

Agustus AAA,

I am amazed at your tactics of dodging uncomfortable questions. You claim Jesus's historicity with great vigour, but ignore the comments about Adam and Eve. Do you really think they were real? I couldn't care less about whether Ramayana is true or not. But you, taking the moral high ground with your little knowledge on Hinduism is deplorable.
Would you care to explain the Historicity or reasoning of the Bible, which, in Genesis claims that God made Day and night on the second day of creation while the sun and the Moon on the fourth. Do you believe in the God of Bible who 'repented' that He had made a mistake by creating man? This is just the tip of the iceberg. There are many more illogical statements in the Bible. Since this is not relevant to the current topic, I just gave only two examples. If you have proper knowledge on Ramayana, have a meaningful debate here. Don't just shoot and scoot.

"They have definitely dated, using historical literature, this dynasty to between 600 and 450 BCE."

In this same section, I have mentioned how this assumption is false. Much of the dating we take for granted start with a false assumption.

augustus aaa

i dont wish to start a tit for tat, but evidence shows
that jesus behave in a very eccenric manner, and his
tribe demanded his crusifiction.

there are other stories which are quite racey.

its not christ or ram to blame.

ram is a mythological figure, but is an ikon for hindus. as some one has said it is not god who made man, but the other way round.however ram serves as
a moral guide in a country where people are illeducated
and irrational.

the amazeing thing is the way jesus has been glorified.

its also strange to see the pomp and pageant of the catholic church, when jesus abhorred all of this.

the pope and his cardinals dressed in gold are in total
contrast to jesus own preachings.

at any rate its childish to get worked up about religion.the need of the hour in india is to pay attention to hygene and cleanliness.

>>There is something presumptuous about how scholars like Doniger carry on with their lectures and judgements, all without any trace of humility.

Humility is desirable but not required....however, scholarly accuracy is required.

>>After all, Hindus are not trying to impose their religion on anyone, and certainly not on Doniger's native America. Live and let live is the best policy.

Explanation why the intellectual curiosity of typical chaddi boys and girls plumbs the depths of an ashtray.

>>What is all this scrutinizing and analysis really about?

the thrill of the chase/pursuit of truth and knowledge...wherever it leads to.

>>BTW, about the egg. Seems a trifle too difficult to miss a frame as large as hers, don't ya think?

not if you realize Chaddi aim is as accurate as their history.

Wendy Doniger is as much an expert on Hinduism Internationally as I am on the National Football League in India; and trust me I can serially reel off every starter in the Dallas Cowboys for the past 20 years.

BTW, about the egg. Seems a trifle too difficult to miss a frame as large as hers, don't ya think?

"How do you know the date of Buddha is precise?"

He lived at the time of the Haryanka dynasty, of Bimbisara, Ajatashatru etc. He was their contemporary. They have definitely dated, using historical literature, this dynasty to between 600 and 450 BCE. The lifespan of the Buddha is between 566( or 563) and 486( or 483) BCE, 80 years.

Varun,

>> there were not large numbers of written records before 300 B.C.E.

A. R. Mujumdar in The Hindu History (1979) observes ... “From 650 AD, perhaps to suit the needs of the age, Hindus rather suppressed history and invented nice legends instead."

>> how scholars like Doniger carry on with their lectures and judgements, all without any trace of humility.... Live and let live is the best policy.

Good advice for you to follow! Also for Shourie.

>>One viable explanation for the lack of precise dating in ancient India( at least, before the time of the Buddha) is that first and foremost, there were not large numbers of written records before 300 B.C.E.

Explanation of lacking evidence isn't a strong way to prove a positive claim.

>>Secondly, what records and evidence there was, was destroyed in invasions and by the monsoon climate.

what's the evidence for weather and invasion related destruction? Absence of evidence doesn't do your claim much good.

>>For the reverence of Ram to endure through at least 2 and a half millenia is a tribute to the strength of the faith through various calamities, to the power of the oral tradition, and the attraction that the written Ramayana epic has had for many centuries.

we're not talking about faith...we're talking about evidence for the existence of a historical person. Its a more intellectually honest answer to say you have no evidence to prove such a person existed; but you choose to believe it out of religious necessity. That, I can respect.

There is something presumptuous about how scholars like Doniger carry on with their lectures and judgements, all without any trace of humility. After all, Hindus are not trying to impose their religion on anyone, and certainly not on Doniger's native America. Live and let live is the best policy. What is all this scrutinizing and analysis really about?

"One viable explanation for the lack of precise dating in ancient India( at least, before the time of the Buddha) "

How do you know the date of Buddha is precise?

One viable explanation for the lack of precise dating in ancient India( at least, before the time of the Buddha) is that first and foremost, there were not large numbers of written records before 300 B.C.E. Secondly, what records and evidence there was, was destroyed in invasions and by the monsoon climate. For the reverence of Ram to endure through at least 2 and a half millenia is a tribute to the strength of the faith through various calamities, to the power of the oral tradition, and the attraction that the written Ramayana epic has had for many centuries.

********
who is the one
who dares write a book about them.throw in the story
of his marriage to rehana, and it will be a sizzler.
********
What is that story??

*******
there is the slight danger of a third world war, and getting killed one self
*******

I agree. Unlike Madam Doniger's imaginary fears this one is for real. There is a long list of people who got killed, recently that Van Gogh dude in Netherlands.

>An incarnation and embodiment, but the symbols, in sculpture, pictures are revered.

You are tying yourself into knots, confused .

Gayatri/Lalit,

>> an overwhelming number of people in the nonmuslim world are now biased against islam and muslims.

I know you are, but you are a hate peddler, and what does that have to do with the Wendy Doniger interview?

>>Why so brash and cocksure?

healthy respect for historicity and low tolerance for those who confuse facts with fiction and vice versa.

Claiming Rama as a personification of ideas/ideals or even a god is not a problem. But, the moment you say he was an actual person who lived at a particular time and a specific place, you must product evidence (doesn't even have to be secular evidence just contemporaneous evidence to make it more probable than not that he's a real person) to make the claim he's a historical person.

We can establish Catal Huyuk, the oldest neolithic settlement, with historical evidence (6,700 - 5,700 bc); we can establish Genghis Khan, we can establish Ramses II, we can establish Alexander the Great, Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, Alfred the Great, Charlemagne, Kublai Khan, Marco Polo and all sorts of other persons with historical evidence of varying degrees....even though none of us were alive when they were.

So, if the claim is Rama is a real person then rules of historical evidence need to be followed; otherwise, his historicity is in doubt.

That doesn't say anything about a literary figure's importance to Hindu religion, Indian culture etc. etc....just that there isn't any historical evidence to believe he's a real person.

>> the marxists and anti hindus like OUTLOOK need another max mullsr, wendy!!.

To find a "anti-hindu" is as easy as to find a "dar al-harb". The concepts are the same/similar.

"More like, claiming Santa Claus and talking animals don't exist..."

Why so brash and cocksure?

"Either a 'sybbol' or 'incarnation'. Make up your mind & then take your pick."

An incarnation and embodiment, but the symbols, in sculpture, pictures are revered. I was referring to two different things.

>>Ram is a symbol and incarnation of God, and this belief has been passed down through the ages.

its has to be one or the other. can't be both.

>>It's a matter of faith.

His relevance and claims are matters of faith. However, his physical existence is a matter of empirical proof (or lack thereof).

>>Claiming "Ram doesn't exist" is like saying "God doesn't exist".

More like, claiming Santa Claus and talking animals don't exist...

>>is there any secular proof your jesus?. absolutely not.

Roman historians Tacitus and Seutonius; Jewish historian Flavius Josephus; Lucian of Somasta, Pliny the Younger (governor of Bithynia)....that should be enough to make your head explode...

>>jesus is a myth created by anti jews to kill them.

all his early disciples and followers were jews, numbnuts.

>> Sure, Wendy is entitled to choose her topic, here the issue is Wendy's dishonesty.

No. Calling her 'dishonest' is a cheap shot and ad hominem attack which only demeans the attacker. If one can rebut her and show the errors in her work etc, they should do so. If she has no case, she will stand rebutted and exposed for lack of merit. Of if she has a response to the objections raised, she will respond. Calling her dishonest or ill-intended etc are cheap shots typical of Islamists who personally denigrate a person if the person writes critically on Islam. Actually the cheap shots give away the story of their own lack of confidence, insecurity etc.

>> Fortunately, internet is full of better informed people than her Royal Highness.

The below the belt and ad hominem attacks on her tell a different story.

>>wendy is nothing but a modern version of max muller...the marxists and anti hindus like OUTLOOK need another max mullsr, wendy!!.

Doniger isn't Max Mueller because she's not a linguist palaeontologist/philologist and for one additional reason: we aren't lucky enough to have another Max Mueller.

"You also suggest that because Rama is afraid of turning into a sex addict like his father, he throws Sita out after enjoying sex with her? "

Looking at line of questioning by Sheela Reddy, I wonder whether she is anyway related to Reddy, who writes on this forum. It is possible that she may be the person herself.

>Ram is a symbol and incarnation of God

Either a 'sybbol' or 'incarnation'. Make up your mind & then take your pick.

varun shekhar

its just a book, expressing wendy,s views.

now the real question.

how many books will she sell.

i wish her luck.

whatever happens hindu believers will still consider
ram,sita and laksman as their ikons.

sita was the idea hindu wife- obedient and
always there for ram

in europe she would have sued ram, and claimed half his kingdom.

next subject.

mehemmet and ayesha-

he 55 years old and she 9 years old. who is the one
who dares write a book about them.throw in the story
of his marriage to rehana, and it will be a sizzler.

there is the slight danger of a third world war, and getting killed one self-

If a Doniger were in a Moslem majority country( or even state like Kashmir) there would be much more than 'hyper-ventilating'. Hindus have a right to be offended, as long as they keep their behaviour within civilised bounds.

Wendy on Sita

Sita as a woman possibly is the main theme of Ramayan, the way she could face the difficult times and the way she treated Ravana at Asoka Grove. Sita defeated Ravana on that morning. Quietly a Rakshasa woman takes Ravana away from her offering better women lest he gets extinguished by the fierce Sita. Ravana never recovered from that shock and Ram's slaying of Ravana later was a mere formality. In Hinduism nature is personified as female and she is given a high status right through its history. She is all powerful whether one likes it or not.

Nothing wrong in extolling Jesus as the Son of God but Christianity suffers as they treated Jesus at the expense of the female. Female from other religious faith never had any say at any point of time in their chequered history, alternating between heretics, women and secret societies trying to cover-up the ill treatment towards women. It is said anywhere between 6000 to 6 million women were burnt alive as heretics, as the un-sealer of the forbidden tree, the first deserter of the divine law, destroying God's image - man and on account of whom Son of God had to die.

Wendy is trying to find a loophole in Hinduism by degrading the woman extolled otherwise, as she points out that she lacked different perspectives by not knowing different languages of India. One thing is common to all the authors of Ramayana is that they glorify the female specie to the highest level, unimaginable in those times for the rest of the world. Being Jewish she must be feeling the folly of calling Mary Magdelene a prostitute not realising the damage Christian faith had caused in the last 2000 years. Wendy must know that a brahmin ceases to perform religious rites once his wife passes away as he gets the rights from her in the first instance to initiate any rite. Hinduism is a beautifully developed faith glorifying the female specie, as Ramakrishna Parahamsa says: "It is my Cosmic Mother who has become everything. She of omnipotence has become the universe and the beings in it. She reveals Herself as the body, the intellect, the virtuous path and the spiritual pursuit. Sakti and Brahman are one. In the manifest state She is Sakti and in the absolute state, Brahman." Wendy is not too old and having learnt Sanskrit she must follow Sir William Jones and not Abbe Dubois, the masters of Sanskrit from outside India, to know the significance of Hinduism.

Ram is a symbol and incarnation of God, and this belief has been passed down through the ages. It's a matter of faith. Claiming "Ram doesn't exist" is like saying "God doesn't exist". We can't really prove it.

BVG Rao

A very good rejoinder to Wendi from you.

augustas,

"That there is no documentary, archeological or other historical evidence that at a particular place "

is there any secular proof your jesus?. absolutely not. jesus is a myth created by anti jews to kill them. bible ia based on hatread of jews. anti jews created this myth that the jews killed this mythical jesus. millions of jews were killed by the christian fanatics in order to avenge the so called death of so called jesus.

Dr. Seshadri,

>>Now I understand why most bangla moslems I met in USA were great admirers of Tagore.

Bengali Muslims who admire Tagore are generally clear sighted, non-communal, progressive and educated. In other words, persons having such values can’t just resist Tagore’s attraction. His creation is entirely devoted to humanity. His distilled love for his birthplace, immense contribution to our language and literature, self-introspection and his peerless prayers (revealed in almost every song he wrote) to Parameswar deeply touch unorthodox Bengalis. He simply inspires respect and love among all the people, who can understand him, regardless their religion.

If BR Ambedkar had succeeded in passing the bill in Constituent Assembly in 1949 , for making Sanskrit as a national language ( of which I have many citations), then this language would have come to the portals of study in Indian Universities. Down the line in 60 yrs it would have been released from being only a religious discourse. BRA 's bill was put down by the Congress then. We would not have had a Wendy Doniger masquerading as an expert. Wendy Doniger's knowledge of Sanskrit had been questioned by Prof Witzel of Harvard University.

Kumar Bangalore, India:
"She, like everyone else has a right to decide what topic to write on. If someone spends all his life writing critically on Christinaity (and there are many who did), it does not mean that they are dishonest. It is their right/choice. Learn to deal with it."

Sure, Wendy is entitled to choose her topic, here the issue is Wendy's dishonesty. Ex , ascribing to Valmiki portions of Uttara Kanda is dishonest.

BOWENPALLE VENURAJA GOPAL RAO explained succintly:

"Uttarama Charitha was meant to be a fiction, and enjoyed for its poetic values.
Whereas Valimiki's Ramayana has a fixed number of slokas ,a unique first time used meter "chandas" which became standard "chandas" later.
So, where from in Valmiki's Ramayana ,the original first time written, Ramayana, the so called Sanskrit scholar Wendy Doni read about Rama's bed room scene with wife Sita and where did Wendy read about Rama telling his Sita that that she should go to forest ???"

Fortunately, internet is full of better informed people than her Royal Highness. No wonder she is angry.

>>>being a good husband is unfortunately not part of this message- and this is a big blemish in the story of ram and sita.

gayatri devi
delhi, India<<<<

Even I thought like that, until I read Valmiki Ramayana and I was also an atheist for quite some time in my life.

If you read the original and some good works like Raja gopal chari's Ramayana , you will notice that

Rama never asked Sita to jump in to fire.
It was Sita who told Lakshmana to bring sticks and set up a fire. Hanuman and others like Jambavan kept themselves silent ,while Lakshman did not obey immediately. Lord Rama protests, saying that such an "Agni pravastham" (test by fire ) was not required at all. Finally when Sita was about to jump in to fire , Rama tries to catch her to pull her away, but she frees herself and walks in to fire.

2) Rama had never sent Sita to forest to be killed by his brother. Nor she was pregnant. This later stories were created and they were much recent compared to Valmiki ,who talks about himself as contemporary of Rama.
According to one version of Ramayana, just for example, in Malaysia, Ravana worships Allah and Allah gives him many boons for his great devotion.
These later diversions were mostly done during public entertainment for example in :"Jana Padas"
(village folk singing "dvipada" two line couplets and perfect meter of their own ) says that Lakshman makes incision on his thighs and hides his wife Urmila there in the form of a card board picture !!!.

In this main this so called Sanskrit scholar Windy Doni do not speak about SITA as "achanchala" , the who never wavered in her character and her boon from God Agni, which consumes anyone, who may touch Sita without her consent.
And if that were not enough ,this Windy "psychoanalyzes" as to why Ravana did not overpower Sita ? and concludes that probably Ravana did not want it.

>>Yes there is outrage that a non scholar whose proficiency in Sanskrit is mediocre at best is being paraded as queen of Hinduism.

don't attend the parade...

Augustus AAA
Pune, India said:

"rewriting is not interpreting"

Take your medication and come back and talk some sense. Ad homenium attacks imply you lost.

Read again, Wendy's Sanskrit is suspect.


"Go on sistah....fight them colonials from San Jose."

Yo bro (brother), whats wrong with that? The average American, atleast in California is lot more intellectual/sensible than these so called scholars. Those people are the audience.

>>Hindus still consider sex as most sacred.

left-handed sacred

Gayatri said:
"if you disapprove of this book,dont buy or read it.
why the intense anger-"

I would not call this anger.
Yes there is outrage that a non scholar whose proficiency in Sanskrit is mediocre at best is being paraded as queen of Hinduism.

faruki

an overwhelming number of people in the nonmuslim
world are now biased against islam and muslims.

ie in phillipines, thailand, india, most of usa, europe,russia,china ,australia.

i have not come across a book or writer which is not
opposed to your quam. newspapers, magasines, tv channels speak badly about muslim terrorism. un
reports write about stagnation and backwardness all
over.

geer wilders, pia kjærsgaard, berlusconi, angels merkel, sarkozy are now solidly biased against
muslim immigrants.

most sound thinking indians are relieved that the
partition of india saved their country from total
disaster.pakistani writers in the english media
admit the many faults of their societies.

your abuse, lies will not change reality. it must be
an embarrassment for you to live in usa, where i feel certain you are quite unwanted.

that is your tragedy in a nutshell.

peace will come to you only if you take a 180 degree turn.

Seshadri,

>> only if they pay people to convert hindus thro invectives, incentives, false-tricks.

You may try to rationalize your hate, but it is not hard to see through your smokescreen. In today's TOI, Jug Suraiya says, "The tug of war between sarkari-sanctioned privilege and a real or perceived lack of it inescapably escalates into full-blown communal carnage, often involving the tactics of conversion and reconversion based not on the primacy of an individual's personal belief but on the politics of force majeure. Or tragic farce majeure, in many cases. In Orissa, for example, self-proclaimed crusaders of the majority Hindu community have, on pain of death, been ‘reconverting' Christians, who allegedly were forcibly converted to Christianity, back to the fold of Hinduism. This is chop-logic of the worst sort. Many of the Christians being ‘reconverted' to Hinduism were never Hindus to begin with, having converted to Christianity from tribal animism."

>> not innocents, only deliberate converters.

Do you have any evidence that either YSR or Dinakaran is a deliberate converter, or is this just another of your habitual malicious lies?

>> just a surmise based on happenings, after 1984.

Very selective surmises dictated by your malevolent prejudices!

>>>>" Christ is no Skanda"
>> God only knows.

But you have been confidently calling him Skanda. Are you pretending to be God?

>>>>"you are no Hindu"
>> all humans born hindus only.

An idiotic lie!

>> an exposer of faith-merchants.

You are a crazed hate merchant, really.

A:>>"churh connection is necessary and sufficient for you to have ill will"

not if they are just temples where jesus or mary can be worshipped; only if they pay people to convert hindus thro invectives, incentives, false-tricks.

>>"Your gloating over the deaths of innocents"

not gloating, only sorry; not innocents, only deliberate convertores, the worst form of himsaa = aatma-himsaa, is conversion involuntary.

>>"That may be your wish"

no wish, just a surmise based on happenings, after 1984.

>>" Christ is no Skanda"

God only knows.

>>"you are no Hindu"

all humans born hindus only. only other relig have initiation ceremonies. gayatri getting is called second birth for start of spiritual evolution, like your being born again in christ.

>>"just a crazed hate merchant".

an exposer of faith-merchants, really.

First of all she is misquoting Valmiki Ramayana .
Either she must be a corrupt woman paid by church people or that , if at all she has been honest, she is the most stupid woman. Certainly she is not "world renown" Sanskrit scholar as the interviewer labels her.
In Valmiki Ramayana there is absolutely no incidence of Sit being sent to forest and later the story of mother Sita having twins etc., or that the end where earth breaks ,Goddess Earth, comes out and takes away her daughter Sita.
All this episode of Sita having a biological ,sexual relationship with her husband Rama and her twins Lava and Kusha were later written by Sanskrit scholars like Bhavabhuti and aptly named it as "Uttara Rama Charita" because they did not want to corrupt the original. Corrupting the great "kavyas", came with commercialization of books and education.
Uttarama Charitha was meant to be a fiction, and enjoyed for its poetic values.
Whereas Valimiki's Ramayana has a fixed number of slokas ,a unique first time used meter "chandas" which became standard "chandas" later.
So, where from in Valmiki's Ramayana ,the original first time written, Ramayana, the so called Sanskrit scholar Wendy Doni read about Rama's bed room scene with wife Sita and where did Wendy read about Rama telling his Sita that that she should go to forest ???

This dishonest way of making money is not first time for foreigners. Earlier one foreigner wrote that Sita was born as illegal child and that too of Ravana,whose semen fell on the earth and so on.
Lord Rama took sanyas the moment he set foot in the forest. Rama and Sita were ideal husband and wife married for a purpose, born for a purpose. Sita never became pregnant.
Never sent to forest.

She says that Gita was translated first time from Sanskrit ,but I believe that "abhignana shakuntalam" written by Kalidasa was the first one to be translated in to English. She says she was misquoted about her comment on Bhagavad-Gita but surprisingly says the same thing again that it is a book of war !!!
Anybody who has commonsense can tell that it is not a book about war mongering, belief in violence.
It is a book on Vedanta, of karma, of cycle of births, of moksha (slavation),and of devotion to God (Bakthi yoga).
A book of war do not have chapters on Bakth Yoga,and Gnana Yoga or talk about selfless less work (karma).
She is exhibiting her stupid mind or else , her dishonest nature throughout the interview.

About Kumara Sambhava she is talking about was written by Kalidasa, and Kalidasa describes the milky white sexy stomach of mother parvathi, and how Shiva her husband ejaculates on her stomach, because God Agni entered their bed room all of a sudden and Shiva gets up in embarrassment. Parvathi curses Agni to have no face for the rest of life. In Amara Chitra Katha for children, meant for middle level or high school, story was changed obviously. And this , she distorts and makes an issue about Hindu's changing their texts etc.,
All puranas remained the same, nobody changed them.
Hinduism considers Sex as sacred, and important one in life. While Christianity considers sex as sin, for Hindus sex is not a sin at all. It a mistaken notion that the British rule changed Hindus ideas of sex. They did not. Hindus still consider sex as most sacred.

V-C:>>"Ram, as his father was, a sex addict".

certainly not true, for ram and dasaratha also.

ram was responsible for bringing monogamy [eka-patnee-vrata] among kshatriyas in hindus; earlier ksh, vaiSy, did prefer polygamy, bec many sons were needed to
defend their states and maintain their farm-wealth, respectively, as society-needed duties only.

dasaratha had only three wives really, to whom he gave the sacrifice prasad to get four divinity kids. the other marriages were dramatized, only to escape the wrath of parasuram, vowed to kill all kshatriyas, after kaartha killed his dad jamadagni. Only exception was that the king will not be killed on the day of his marriage! so, many kings married a new girl, on the days when parasuram arrived to kill them. Such, deemed-wives swere maintained by king, since others will not marry them. The problem was solved, stopped, after rishi Kashyap asked parasuram to stay out of india. He created a new hill-land on west coast with his big axe, the keral of today, called paraSuraama-kshetra, god's own country, where vaamana had also appeared earlier.

Seshadri,

>>>>"Seeing God as the executioner of your ill wishes"
>> I had no ill will for ysr or dinakaran earlier. came to know about their church-connections, only after the former's death and latter's denial of promo to supreme court was reported.

You mean churh connection is necessary and sufficient for you to have ill will toward people?

>> you dont believe in law of karma, at all. punishment comes only in hell...

Your gloating over the deaths of innocents is hardly the law of karma.

>> christ has returned into skanda, now, to enforce punish on christians and moslems.

That may be your wish, but Christ is no Skanda, and you are no Hindu, just a crazed hate merchant.

A:>>"Seeing God as the executioner of your ill wishes"

I had no ill will for ysr or dinakaran earlier. came to know about their church-connections, only after the former's death and latter's denial of promo to supreme court was reported. seeing possible God-will behind them, only after the events. God alone knows the truth, anyway!

but you certainly cant agree, since you dont believe in law of karma, at all. punishment comes only in hell after waiting for day of judgement in graves, for your faiths.

perhaps christ has returned into skanda, now, to enforce punish on christians and moslems, also, the relatively 'young' religions, as you call them. God alone knows, really! even in families, very young kids are not punished for their pranks, parents only enjoy them! may be, God has given a couple of millennia of unpunished pranks for chr, islam; more responsible behaviour expected from now onwards, may be!

>> Explaining their teachings and actions by trying to analyze their drives, instincts, oedipal conflicts, castration fears or sibling rivalries is pseudo-science taken to ridiculous limits.
Anwaar

Exactly, it's reasoning gone awry.
Such exercises in negative studies help no one.

>>Explaining their teachings and actions by trying to analyze their drives, instincts, oedipal conflicts, castration fears or sibling rivalries is pseudo-science taken to ridiculous limits

Otherwise, pseudo-science within ridiculous limits is perfectly fine?

>>I must say that using psychoanalytic theories to explain the behaviour of religious iconic figures is a very unwise proposition.

What? Science loses it quasi religious/iconic status as THE means of excavating truth authoritatively ONLY when "religious iconic figures" are involved? That's called special pleading (screaming for mummy when afraid).

>>Yes, that would be too much fun..

actually an outright delight.....especially, if there's a factual basis for it to boot...

While I am not qualified to write about Wendy Doniger's scholarship in Sanskrit or on Hinduism, I must say that using psychoanalytic theories to explain the behaviour of religious iconic figures is a very unwise proposition. Even psychoanalyzing living political personalities about whom a lot more is known is frowned upon by authorotative psychoanalysts. The principle is "Don't psychoanalyze someone who has not been on your couch."

The personae of iconic figures like Ram, Krishna, Buddha, Moses, Jesus, Muhammed, Guru Nanak etc espouse ideals valued by their followers. Explaining their teachings and actions by trying to analyze their drives, instincts, oedipal conflicts, castration fears or sibling rivalries is pseudo-science taken to ridiculous limits.

>>I agree about the complete freedom Hindus have to learn from other religions and secular sources too.

including the freedom to be blockheads...as you've demonstrated thus far.

>>That is exactly why I remain a Hindu in spite of my fierce criticism of its faults, especially casteism.

congratulations....now say something relevant

>>Hinduism is the perfect religion for intellectuals. No religion places so little demands on its votaries,

especially intellectual exertions or coherent explanations

>>allows them such complete mental freedom.

in your case, complete mental.

>>Except that India should be considered sacred, and you should have a feeling for Hindu history and heritage to deserve the name of Hundu, nothing at all is mandatory in Hinduism.

why mandate considering India sacred and "feeling" (instead of "facts") for history and heritage,

>>As it happens, some of my close relatives are Roman Catholics, and in a completely well-meaning way,

my condolences to the both of you

>>Their church, in Richmond, British Columbia, is a very attractive and liberal institution.

Attractive as in a nice building with a manicured lawn?

>>The priests there would chuckle at the hill-billy fanaticism of Augustus AAA.

there'll be lot of mutual chuckling then...

>>Nevertheless, after extensive testing, I did not feel I should abandon Hinduism.

don't...just abandon your nuttiness...

>>In which other religion could I maintain my respect for Karl Marx, fotr instance? His atheism would horrify Christians and Muslims and the rest of the Jewish tribe. But to Hindus he can be a profoundly wise guru, whose traching contains important truths.

traching is very important when you can't breath..

>>I could have been a Buddhist, true.

Instead, you're a mosquito.

>>It too is an urbane, broad-minded faith.

And you are too profane for that?

>>Somehow it bores me.

the same way you bore me?

>>Hinduism never fails to delight with its colour and joy.

Color, I can't disagree with; Joy is another matter.

********
that would be fun...so bring it on
*******

Yes, that would be too much fun..