"Burqa 'ban' rocks Hyderabad college

HYDERABAD: Trouble erupted in Muslim dominated Mehdipatnam after burqa-clad young girl students held a massive agitation outside Vani College
(Junior and Degree) on Friday morning after the college principal, Y Annapurna, allegedly asked students not to wear burqa to class and shut the college gates on them.

The agitation soon degenerated into a stone pelting session with male students fron neigbouring colleges and parents of the girls joining in. The situation came under control only after the police - called in by the college management - resorted to a lathi charge.


Analysts were amazed at the turn of events because the college has predominantly Muslims students. “I could understand such things happening in hardcore Hindu colleges and only with a few Muslim students. But not here,” said Salim Khan, a local resident. But an analyst - a Muslim—who does not want to be named said that “girls are girls, Hindu or Muslim. Their aspirations will be the same. Young girls will want to mingle with young boys, whether they wear burqa or not. Obviously, the principal is unable to appreciate this. She wants to say why are you friends with boys when you wear a burqa? This is the genesis of the trouble,” he added. "

http://timesofindia....icleshow/4947050.cms

And we thought these things happen in Sawat only .

""The CPI(M) does not believe in any model from outside for our country to follow." Prakash Karat

Gratefull if some one sends Karat a copy of the book written by the KGB defector -"The Mitrokhin Papers" so that Karat Babu is enlightned as to how they sold Mother India for money bags sent by KGB For Pre-Independence period Karat is welcome to read the books on M N Roy the biggest Communist Leader of those times and his and Commie's betrayal of the Indian indepence struggle.

"The CPI(M) does not believe in any model from outside for our country to follow.

Prakash Karat, general secretary, CPI(M), new delhi

The whitest lie of the year !!

Can Mr. Sen please explain, what does he means by the phrase "friend of the Left" and whom does he considers "Left" in India, considering the character of the parliamentary Left. It all looks highly deceptive and strategic the way he put forwards his support for the UPA agenda, its politics and Manmohan's vision without coming upfront as its intellectual mouthpiece. Given his genius, that we all agree with, its higly unconvincing that he can not feel the threat of american imperialism as being more dangerous in a unipolar world than in the cold war era, it is very much connected to the select injustices (that haunt India) he is disappointed with. He knows it very well. But I don't know what goes with these intellectuals, that they always want to remain loyal to the state and the government that runs it. With all the lofty praises for MS, Nehru and Mr. Rahul Gandhi what message does he looks a celebrity endorsing a product. That is the way Indian politics is turning out to be. Goo Job Mr. Sen.

P.S. I missed metioning the funny statement that he made "I don’t think Narendra Modi is fit to be prime minister of India". Are you serious?

It's disappointing though- his nonchalant, even dismissive attitude towards corruption, which he totally ignored- the most pernicious evil in this fetid land and he does not even mention it.
Though his answers are all very PC, at least he's honest about his Left-leaning creds- maybe that explains his inability of finding any fault with the Sardarji- who is also a renowned Left-leaning economist.

I have been an avid reader of Amartya's writings and interviews for many years. Those morons who doubt his academic credentials please learn more about him - about his areas of research and accomplishments. Even when he was in his twenties and thirties he was well known in India and abroad as noted economist - a luminary at D School of Economics- prolific on his research in diverse areas of economics- served on a number of high level committees in India before his sojourn abroad at Harvard and Cambridge.

Yes, you can disagree with him for his political biases. For example, I side with him for condemning Mody for his involvement in the Gujarat riots, but I equally believe that Rajiv Gandhi should have been equally misfit to govern India given his involvement in anti-Sikh riots. This is where Amartya avoided any criticism of Rajeev and only remained politically correct by saying that the perpetrators of Sikh riots should accept their wrongdoings. Amartya was also evasive about dynastic politics and even after criticizing the government on welfare issues could not conceal his political biases toward Manmohan, Gandhi family and Congress.
His political views notwithstanding, Amartya for a very long time has been recommending more government involvement in the welfare of the poor - long before either Mody or Rahul Gandhi became nationally recognized politician. We all know about the virtues of basic education and basic health. That's more important at this point than fighting caste and communal politics.

Seshadri,

>> productive forces woking in tune with divine will are called suras.

That should make you an asura. Your arrogance and hatefulness are apparently out of tune with the divine will.

>> those embedded in jealousy are asuric in nature.

I know the definition. The question is whether you have the objectivity or the right to make decisions as to who are suric or asuric. You are a highly prejudiced, cantankerous and hate-filled person. You, of all people, are the least suited to make judgements about other people.

You Guys Sure Know Your Business Very Well You Put Some Cerebral Celebrity. And Make Your Readers Believe
That You Take What Goes On Seriously.

Seshadr,

>> only to be saved from dalitizn by rakshasic obcs/asuric moslems.

What a hateful moron!

Seshadri,

>> is it hatred and racism to say that God wants all races, even animals also, to evolve spiritually.

It is hatred to call other races asuric, and to allege that they need spiritual evolution more than you do. Your being totally unaware of your own hatefulness suggests that you are more in need of evolution than you realize.

>> your problem with appreciating me is bec your mind is still bound by the four forms of himsaa, denounced by sanaatan sanmskaar.

I do not appreciate you because you are a hate peddler and a liar.

>> races do exist, altho racism is to be avoided.

So when will you start avoiding it?

Seshadri,

>> the asuric onslaught from arabia, turkey, also willed only by god to give spiritual evolve to adamogenics also.

And you claim to be free from hate!!! You are full of hate and racism, and surprisingly devoid of any self-insight for a professor!

Seshadri,

>> my perception that post-moghul invasion, after the really unselfish kshatr of sreeraama type all gone, killed, some soodras became satraps and cooperated with nawabs.

Your perceptions are worth nothing. You keep creating fairytales to suit your hate agenda.

Seshadri,

>>>>"some sections of Brahmins might have been forced to become scavengers etc., under some fanatic Muslim king but this was not true for most of the country".
>> well, wherever the anti-B obcs could join up with the nawabs and get it done.

Do you have any facts or are you just pulling these stories out of your ass?

>>>>In fact, most other Bs changed their surnames to negate their B-hood, to be saved from D-hooD
v.seshadri
chennai, india<<<<

Professor ji in many posts you write that all DALITS were actually at one point of time, Brahmins!

No, I do not agree.

There may be sporadic incidents where, some sections of Brahmins might have been forced to become scavengers etc., under some fanatic Muslim king but this was not true for most of the country.

In Goa for example, most of the Christians were converted Brahmins, forced under bloody Portuguese rule, and so is the case among Kashmiri Muslims, most of them if not all were Brahmins.

Due to thousands of years of segregation(of the steel frame called caste) there is genetically, a basis for many sections of Brahmin caste people as for other castes.

There is nothing wrong with a caste, as long as there is no exploitation of a caste by other caste people.
Every community has a right to protect its blood, in other words, its specific characteristics or emotional behaviour.

The cruel and crude example is that many breeds of dogs each with its own special quality and the breeders fanaticism, to keep pure, the blood lines , he is breeding.
I understand human soceities are not simple as dogs.

In anthropology we read about upward movement of the caste. For example a lower caste family re-settles in a distant land and claims belonging to a higher caste, and in a generations time these families would be absorbed in to the higher caste society.
There are clear and discernible upward movements in the rigid caste system of India , but not downward movement, except for may be, very few sporadic incidents.

So your very often repeated claim that all Dalits were Brahmins earlier etc. may be wrong.

Seshadri do not worry ... no one will hold you responsible for the crimes of your forebears. However revising history is a crime in itself.

Seshadri,

>> all atrocities by all monstrosities, of all religions and selfstyled relig-heads of all sorts, will surely receive micro-correct punishments at the hands of the absolute, by what-ever names these are called, popes/cardinals/bishops, ayatollas/mullas or swamis/aachaaryas/adigalars, whatever.

At last I can agree with you.

Seshadri,

>>>> " even the killing of Dalits is religiouly justified."
>> right, for the moslem invaders and their hindu-obc collabs/sambandhis.

Lying seems to come so easily to you! Trashing others seems to be your favorite pastime.

Malavika
You have given most specific evidence.
You may also add the wholesale murder of Incas and Aztecs in south America by the spanish catholics ( devoid of catholicism) for the sake of gold and riches.
The natives of Americas and Australia were systematically eliminated and their lands occupied.One of the Australian PMs had puiblicly apologised for all the brutalities they committed on aborigines .

Hindus did of course practice untochability but they did not enslave them nor killed the whole lot as final solution as PAs cousins in Germany did.

Which religion did the Europeans practice?

bowenpalle venuraja gopal rao,warangal, india

"And he took a good decision, as events proved by the history."

What events? India's IPKF returned home without any closure to the LTTE issue. It is the Sinhales who closed the chapter on LTTE in spite of the heavy price they paid. In the process they even dissed Obama when the fight was in crucial stage.

"If I write a historical fact, it does not mean that I am a Rajiv fan. You have to learn to read and understand history for the sake of truth."

Perhaps, you should follow your own advice. Rajiv's IPKF misadventure was poorly planned and executed. Even after IPKF misadventure LTTE was strong and powerful enough to kill him.

For ex: There was no blockade of supplies from the coast of Tamilnadu. LTTE was routinely getting supplies and getting treatment for its injured fighters.

I don't think he would have not been so callous if his son Rahul was in the IPKF contingent. But, then there are separate rules for aam admi and Nehru Family. Separate and un equal.

I agree, and as for Rajiv's legacy, I would add his >>>>IPKF blunder. His callous disregard for the lives of our men in uniform. First he trained LTTE and then sent our men to fight them without any clear strategic objective. Nearly 1200 men died.
Malavika
san jose, United States<<<<

When a policy decision like sending IPKF to Sri Lanka was taken, it was a big process; it goes through think-tank, through cabinet decision in a parliamentary system of Govt.
It was Prabhakaran's propaganda or decision that changed the govt. policy towards LTTE.

LTTE by the time of Rajiv Gandhi started putting forward an idea that Tamilnadu and Tamil parts of Northern lanka would make one nation one country.
R&AW report was that, in Tamil nadu, yet another Punjab was in the making, hand of CIA, ISI helping this crisis is anyone's imagination.
Rajiv had to take a decision. And he took a good decision, as events proved by the history.

If I write a historical fact, it does not mean that I am a Rajiv fan. You have to learn to read and understand history for the sake of truth.

>>>>Bowenpalle Venuraja Gopala Rao,

Why you write stories , man?

MANISH BANERJEE
KOLKATA, India<<<<

Many an instance in history, facts look like
fiction.

Pedda Anna said:

"Not only Muslims, even the killing of Dalits is religiouly justified."

Liar, sources for your defamation? Quote the scriptures to suuport your claim. Dalitistan web site run by Christian fundamentalists does not count. Here is some info about Christianity:

Gods council to parents is straight forward.whenever children get out of line we should beat them with a rod. (Proverbs 13:24, 20:30 and 23:13-14). If they are shameless enough to talk back we should kill them.(Exodus 21:15, Leviticus 20:9, Deuteronomy 21:18, Mark 7:9-13 and Matthew 15:4-7)

Source: Harris, Sam: Letter to a Christian nation (pp 12-14)

St. Augustine and St Thomas Aquinas, concluded that heretics should be tortured(Augustine) or killed outright(Aquinas).Martin Luther and John Calvin advocated the wholesale murder of heretics, apostates, Jews, and witches.

Source: Harris, Sam: Letter to a Christian nation (pp 12-14)


Bible on Slavery

As for your male and female slaves whom you may have: you may buy male and female slaves from among the nations that are round about you. You may also buy fromamong the strangers who sojourn with you and their families that are with you, who may have been born in your land; and they may be your property. You may bequeath them to your sons after you, to inherit as a possession for ever; you may make slaves of them, but over your bretheren the people of Israel you shall not rule, over one another, with harshness.
Re
Leviticus 25:44 - 46

The Godhra train fire, according to the Banerjee Commission, was accidental. According to eyewitnesses on Tehelka tapes, the fire was not pre-planned but was set in the heat of the moment.

Modi's decision to parade the dead bodies through the streets of Ahmedabd was a definite instigation. His asking the police to stand back and let people vent their anger on the bandh day was tantamount to being an accessory in the massacre.

There are contradictory reports of riots in Gujarat in the past century from Hindu and Muslim sources. Relations between Hindus and Muslims in Gujarat have been mostly peaceful, even friendly. Mentioning the history of mostly harmonious Hindu-Muslim relations is very upsetting to the sanghis. They want us to believe that Hindus and Muslims have always been at each other's necks. Such a stance must help them politically.

>>It should be even more surprising that there are no expressions of regret/apologies etc from the Modi/BJP.
Kumar
It is for Modi/ BJP to decide on that .
But it all started with burning of innocent hindu pilgrims at Godhra by marauding muslim mobs and the subsequent consequences were suffered by both muslims and hindus. As enlisted in my earlier post the atrocities of minorities over the majority over a long period has left a definite bad will for the muslims especially in the immediate aftermath of Sept11 in USA when most Hindus felt outraged. And this burning of pilgrims was the proverbial last straw for those heady youth and trouble makers in both communities to see an opportunity to assert themselves.
>> What does Hinduism offer so that the so-called "pent up anger" against innocent people on communal lines be condemned?
I put it this way. After doing what Muslims had done all along to humiliate Hindus at every opportune point of history –even now in all most all posts all Muslims without exception never fail to seize an opportunity to denigrate majority hindus ,ex.you have been doing regularly-Why do you think you are entitled for something from Hinduism in return?
On the contrary it is the muslims who had chosen to separate from the main land Hindustan in the name of religion which only means that muslims never really identified with the land of their own birth, and inspite of that if muslims are still treated here equally means you should be on the side of giving the motherland in return to redeem the debt rather than asking what has Hinduism done? What has islam done except death and destruction wherever they make acritical mass-about 33% of population? Stop being a muck raker.
How the muslims treat non-muslims is well known. The book even enjoins it. Do not lecture us here. Thank Allah that you are not paying Jiziya here unlike the hindus& Sikhs in Pakistan populated by your kin. Why don’t you go there and lecture your cousins Afghans and Pakis on equal rights and ask them to apologise the Hindus and Sikhs, first?
Your kind of people take full advantage of democracy only to decry the society which afforded that freedom. The story is same every where either in UK, USA or India. You do a stupid thing and if people react you start complaining. Instead if you put just one tenth of that effort that you guys put to bring down the democratic societies in some community service , you will earn lot of good will among public.
The many historical wrongs of Muslim rulers stare in the face, Kumar. When in power Muslims behave/d badly and Indian culture was assaulted and wounded perpetually to leave negative image on the general psyche.
If innocent muslims are affected it is merely bcze of collective identity & responsibility. When your muslim terrorists target, are they differentiating that the targets they aim are all innocent? Sept11 terrorists killed more than 3000 innocents; what were you doing?What did you do? We never heard you exhorting your kin to apologise to the affected families. We only saw muslims dancing in the streets as if Mohd Atta the master mind had earned a Nobel for ground breaking cancer treatment. What can be more macabre? We did not hear even few sound bytes of condemnation by any mullahs and we sure heard more bytes of sound when they protested Mohammed cartoons.
Many terrorists operate from muslim dominated areas. It is a well known fact . A terrorist is like a fish and cannot survive without water- the muslim masses around. The complicity of so called moderate Muslims – all may not be involved- is what earns the community the ire of majority.
Parsis shall be your example. Work hard, earn the respect the hard way and claim your entitlement. This country has many faults but as yet it is more humane than any muslim nation you can name. You are safe in Bangalore than Lahore, Kumar, if you do not know.
This country recognises the merit of a minority guy more than a guy from majority. You know the examples. Do not expect all of us to play God and make self sacrifices just bcz you are a different religion. We are all humans with faults and vengeance for the wrongs done to us.But we are willing for reconciliation. Thats what I asked in my earlier post. Forget and forgive – each of us. When Germany can have honourable relation with Israel and USA after all the deaths why not we?
I have a muslim colleague who openly said after London bombings that they deserved it!! When the mindset is such which is always at odds with the majority how do you expect goodwill when you continue to stoke fires? As a sample you can introspect yourself. No muslim ever agrees with Hindus’ posts and you are one of those. Quite vociferous in your sense of entitlement. You live in India and plead for the enemy. Shame on you. Be a patriotic Indian rather than asserting your religion when it is not required.

Bowenpalle Venuraja Gopala Rao,

Why you write stories , man?

Al Bundy, San Francisco, United States

"And of course, they don't have any page dedicated to 84 violence (or even Nandigram)."

True, but what is stopping us the Hindu rights groups from doing just that? Hindu America Foundation (HAF) is doing a lot of wonderful work in documenting the attrocities against Hindus.

We, in India need an equivalent.

Ajit Tendulkar, Seattle, United States Said:

"Finally. But now one more spin. The point is that it was much after Godhra/Gujarat that the PM offered an apology for what happened in 1984. The point is NOT to mitigate the BJP/Modi perfidy (nothing can do that, but by the same token, nothing can mitigate Rajiv Gandhi/Congress perfidy either). The point being made is that it was RG's lineage and veneer and political correctness that helped him get good press all these years. Modi, by contrast, has actually been a non-corrupt and an able administrator. His being that does not absolve him of Gujarat 2002, but it is just a fact that he is a better administrator and financially clean unlike Bofors-chor RG whose legacy was Ayodhya and Shahbano and abuse of free speech because of the Rushdie ban, to name a few, and yes, the rise of communalism and BJP."

I agree, and as for Rajiv's legacy, I would add his IPKF blunder. His callous disregard for the lives of our men in uniform. First he trained LTTE and then sent our men to fight them without any clear strategic objective. Nearly 1200 men died.

The press was deferential as usual. The myth of free press is vastly over rated, and is just a myth certainly in India. How free is a press when licenses, awards(Padma Shrees etc) and plots in posh Journalists colonies are under control of Govt and doled out?

Sandilya,

>> I am surprised at the obsessive postings on Gujarat riots even after 7 years ..

It should be even more surprising that there are no expressions of regret/apologies etc from the Modi/BJP.

>> there was a great pent up anger amongst the majority hindus against the muslims for reasons ...

There is an even more important question. What does Hinduism offer so that the so-called "pent up anger" against innocent people on communal lines be condemned? Does hinduism condemn the rape/murder of innocents, communal violence, violent extremism, terrorosm etc? That ought to be the question. Even Muslims are supposed to have a lot of reasons for violence/extremism etc, but if Islam cannot condemn it, the religion is worth nothing. So is the case with Hinduism. If Hinduism cannot unequivocally and categorically condemn Gujarat riots of 2002, the religion is worth nothing.

The partition was the result of pressure brought by Jinnah, on the Congress party through communal riots.

The riots were unabating perticulary in Bengal and also in all north Indian cities.
This dangerous man Jinnah had dangerous ideas to become a Prime Minister!

Mahtam Gandhi, though he behaved like a child was a very shrewd person, he was lawyer after all.
Against many popular myths,propaganda and belief ,Mahatma did not agree to partition just after one meeting with Jinnah.

Mahatma Gandhi had 25 meetings with Jinnah all the while convincing Jinnah not to opt for partition.
He understood the real intentions of Jinnah and proposed the idea that
Jinnah shall become the first prime minister(to avoid partition of India).
At this proposal Jinnah kept silent without any demand for his Pakistan.

Sardar Patel did not agree to Mahatma’s proposal and said that people will not accept Jinnah as
PM of India.
This sealed the fate. We can not blame Nehru alone for India’s partition. Many circumstances also contributed to this.

Read for example the procedures of the constituent assembly formed in those days to frame Constitution of India. Muslim members object for every proposal put forward for discussion. They did not want a secular setup, land reforms, religious reforms and so on.
Muslim zamindars, nawabs, princes wanted zamindari sytem or nawabgiri to continue.

For example. Many independent kingdoms shall have to continue.

It was soon realized that constituent assembly could go nowhere and Muslims formed a separate assembly. The idea of India ( a great union of many states, and all religions of the world with equal opportunity, universal franchise etc.,) did not exist the in the minds of powerful Muslim groups at the time because that would not serve their purpose.
They would lose their centers of power , identity or importance otherwise.

For Nehru, and Patel , it could have been a great relief (the idea of partition) but
they did not bring about the partition.

Mahatma , off course was the only one who seems to have shattered with the prospect of a partition.

It was true that none of these leaders including Jinnah expected that nearly a million people will die due to partition.

Nehru gave public speeches right in the middle of turmoil that people should stay where they were, and that Muslims need not go Pakistan.

Surprising as it may seem, Jinnah also was not only telling the Hindus not go to India but in fact he pleaded with certain sections of Hindus to remain in Pakistan and that great Pakistan needs them.

But already control was gone in to the hands of interested groups in Pakistan who did not want any Hindu competition there. They were the last ones to hear Quiad-e-Azam Jinnah.

Patel personally supervised and protected camps established for Muslims affected in the riots and rampage that was going on unabated. The police and other forces were just not enough to quell the riots of the mobs.

Praising Jinnah and criticizing Nehru is meaningless.
If only anybody had an idea that Jinnah was actually dying of TB and that he had holes in his lungs, probably partition could not have happened.
Congress strategy would have changed.

One aspect of Independence of India I relish most is its partition into India and Papistan.
I see divine providence in this separation. I just cannot imagine violent and brutal Taliban as my fellow citizens and travellers.
We are better off without the impending gangrenous Papistan which was amputated from the body of Hindustan only to save the latter.

Hats off to Rajaji for his political sagacity in opining for a honourable separation rather than waiting for a civil war later. He was lucid to say brothers unwilling to live together should separate. And we should thank the times and the rulers for sparing us the perennial trauma we other would sure be having if Pakistan remained in India. Such a small state as J&K with a population just smaller than Madras remains in news daily for all the wrong reasons. I shudder to think of having whole of Pakistan population in India. That swamp would have floundered us forever. BJP should stop harping on Akhand Bharat. Ill informed people only will long for that.

I agree with Jaswantsingh that partition could have been avoided. What I cannot agree with is putting all the blame for partition on Nehru.

I am surprised at the obsessive postings on Gujarat riots even after 7 years. It is a fact that both hindus and muslims suffered in those riots and it was not merely any one community that was affected.
Atrocities were committed by both the communities. The difference only is that there was a great pent up anger amongst the majority hindus against the muslims for reasons enlisted below.

And the Godhra burning was merely the proverbial last straw.

Read on...

"Title: The saga of Islamic atrocities in Ahmedabad
Author: Nikhil Patwardhan
Publication:
Date: Mar 16, 2002


From Mahabharata times this ancient city known as Ashaval, Rajnagar or Karnavati
is called Ahmedabad now.

Karnavati's name was changed to "Ahmedabad" in honor of a monster by the name of Sultan Ahmed Shah who came to rob and desecrate this beautiful city in 1411. Overnight the thousands of books and manuscripts which spoke of the wondrous Karnavati were burnt to ashes and it's identity desecrated to Ahmedabad - "City of Ahmed" in an obscene gesture of assertion of power. Sultan Ahmed Shah, the devout Muslim that he was, swore to destroy all traces of "Kafir" (Non Muslim) worship in the land, for the sake of Allah.
In 1415, Sultan Ahmed Shah himself went to Siddhapur to break the Shiva shrine of Rudramahalaya of Siddharaj. The broken pieces were buried underfoot at the entrance and the vast and beautiful Temple was converted into a Mosque. The Bhadrakali temple of Karnavati was changed to the Jama Masjid of Ahmedabad.

The walled fortresses and palaces, the Hindu towers which were engineering marvels that shook, the local specialty of incredibly intricate carving skill, the artisanship of stone cutting, the vast Baolis where accountants sat amidst the breeze cooled by the sweet waters of the well, all of these were snatched and converted to Mosques and Muslim palaces for the pleasure of the Sultan's court. Thousands of the Hindu citizens of Karnavati were massacred or enslaved.
Muslims soon filled the entire walled fortress area of the city which used to be called "Bhadra" in reference to BhadraKali. The disillusioned Hindus of Ahmedabad had no choice but to reconcile themselves to living with their neighbors.

But soon the Hindus found that they could no longer practise their own faith peacefully within the very city which had been created and nurtured by their hard work. The history of Ahmedabad is riddled with instances of Islamic intolerance forcing the Hindus to defend themselves.

In 1713 , the Hindus of "Ahmedabad" were celebrating Holi, when suddenly they were rudely startled by the agonized sounds of Cows being slaughtered in a deliberate attempt to insult and denigrate the sacred festival by Muslims. Bloody Riots soon erupted when hundreds of innocent Hindus were slaughtered by the Muslims.

In 1892, Muslims deliberately led their Moharram procession through the Hindu quarters of "Ahmedabad", in the process splattering the blood of sacrificed animals all over the shocked Hindus. As the outraged Hindus protested, the Muslims attacked women and children and forcibly rubbed the blood onto their faces while thrusting pieces of meat down their throats.

In September of 1927, Hindus were singing Bhajans in the Temple during Janamashtmi. Suddenly Muslims began pouring out of Jama Masjid and shouting against the Hindus for interrupting the Namaz. Rocks and glass bottles were thrown at the Hindus in the temple as passerby's throats were slashed. The result was a full scale communal riot.

In 1941 the Muslims of "Ahmedabad" set fire to the entire Maneckchowk bazaar, because a Hindu businessman was not willing to lower his prices under threat of extortion from local Muslims.
In 1946 the Muslim league gave a call for liberation from India. Thousands of Muslims poured out into the streets in order to teach the Hindus a lesson. "Ahmedabad" burned for three days, as shops were plundered, women's throats slashed, men mutilated and Temples looted and destroyed by rampaging Muslim mobs.

In 1953 Ganesh Chaturthi happened to coincide with Moharram. When Hindus took out processions, they were splattered with blood from animal sacrifices and told to go home or face the consequences. Naturally the enraged Hindus retaliated.

In 1963 a Hindu girl was raped and badly mutilated by four Muslims in Junagarh and the angered Hindus tried to catch the criminals Muslims erupted in large scale rioting.

In 1969 Muslims came out and attacked the Jagannath Temple during the Rath Yatra festival. The idol was damaged and scores of Hindus were injured by the marauding Muslim hordes. A priest was also killed .

Year after Year the Muslim community of "Ahmedabad" pelts the participants of the Annual Rath Yatra with stones and rocks. When Hindus retaliate, engineered riots ensue immediately.

On March 24, 1998 a huge cache of arms, ammunition and explosives were recovered from Gandhinagar and Dariyapur locality of Ahmedabad. The weapons were supplied by Pakistan's ISI to the Muslim gangs which lived in Changez Pol and Sadar areas of Ahmedabad. The complicity of the Muslim community with the ISI's designs was confirmed when protests by Muslims followed the arrest of Latif and Razzaq Abdul Wahab gangmembers.

On October 13, 1998, a plot to assassinate Union Home Minister Shri L.K. Advani and Chief Minister Keshubhai Patel, was foiled when the Muslim culprit was caught. The culprit Abu Kasem alias Ajmal related that his orders came from Pakistan's ISI and that he had been sheltered in the home of a well known Muslim businessman of "Ahemedabad" city. The weapons and explosives for the attempt were being kept in a Mosque by another ISI agent named Bablu or Usman.

As the Kargil conflict came to an end this July, many patriotic Amdavadis wanted to express their joy and celebration at the Victory of the Indian Armed Forces. Effigies of Pakistani PM Nawaz Sharif were burnt as cries of "Pakistan Hai Hai" and "Bharat Mata ki Jai" rent the air. It was these celebrations that supposedly "offended and angered" the Muslims.

Instead of joining in as any nationalistic Indian should, the Muslim community of "Ahmedabad" started throwing stones at the celebrations. Cries of hatred against "Kafir Hindustan Murdabad" and "Pakistan Zindabad" filled the air within the walled city, where Muslims predominate. It was natural for the Hindus to be outraged and infuriated at this response.


How can the Hindu citizens of a city feel safe in such a hostile environment? They are being deprived of their right to practise their religion, culture and tradition in their own city and country. The riots have been deliberately planned to drive out the Hindu residents of "Ahmedabad" out of fear. The only beneficiaries to such a situation would be the Congress, Shankarsingh Vaghela and the Muslim elements of "Ahmedabad".

Even as cries of denouncement against the "Hindu fundamentalists" fill the air throughout the "Secular" politics and media of India, it is time for the Hindus of "Ahmedabad" and innumerable other Indian cities which have been robbed of their culture, to realize that the problem is NOT temporary. The only way to defeat these dark forces that threaten to overwhelm democracy is by ensuring that they don't come to power. There is only one weapon left in their defense; Their Vote."

Therefore it is better that all of us ignore the past and move on as responsible citizens and look for confidence building measures than keep on pointing at each others perfidy. It wont take us anywhere except the path of more hatred and destruction.

The link in my last post does not work. Perhaps this will:

http://timesofindia....icleshow/4898409.cms

Vilification of Nehru continues. Jaswantsingh says, "it was Jawaharlal Nehru whose belief in a centralised system had led to the Partition."

If the reference is to the rejection of the Cabinet Plan, that was the position of the Congress leadership, not just that of Nehru.

>> if the final decisions had been taken by Mahatma Gandhi, Rajaji or Maulana Azad - rather than Nehru – a united India would have been attained.

I thought Rajaji was in favor of partition as early as 1941! Ganndhi was persuaded by Nehru and Patel to agree to the partition. Azad was deliberately kept out of this process because it was felt that he would never agree.

http://news.outlookindia.com/item.aspx?664444

Seshadri,

>> anwaraachaarya has finally conceded that one can talk about 'asura attributes and attitudes', not idiocy to do so.

Your need to defend a massacre and to glorify its instigators such as Modi is abominable. I used your own favorite word to describe it. The concept of asura however is racist and your vicious misuse of the Gita terminology cannot be pleasing to Lord Krishna.

Ganesan,

>> When did muslims become 33% in India?

That was the percentage before partition.

Ganesan,

>> When did muslims become 33% in India?

That was the percentage beor partition.

Bundy:

I screwed up my last post. You were right about the numbers. Sorry.

"Compared to Gujarat, where almost a quarter of people killed were Hindus (wonder if that can be called genocide at all then), "

Actually, according to the information which the Congress govt gave in parliament, 2/3rds killed by the police in Gujarat were hindus and 1/3rd muslims. But genocide it is against muslims by the police.

"A 33% minority would have a special status in any country. Just look at Canada or Lebanon."

When did muslims become 33% in India?

Finally. But now one more spin. The point is that it was much after Godhra/Gujarat that the PM offered an apology for what happened in 1984. The point is NOT to mitigate the BJP/Modi perfidy (nothing can do that, but by the same token, nothing can mitigate Rajiv Gandhi/Congress perfidy either). The point being made is that it was RG's lineage and veneer and political correctness that helped him get good press all these years. Modi, by contrast, has actually been a non-corrupt and an able administrator. His being that does not absolve him of Gujarat 2002, but it is just a fact that he is a better administrator and financially clean unlike Bofors-chor RG whose legacy was Ayodhya and Shahbano and abuse of free speech because of the Rushdie ban, to name a few, and yes, the rise of communalism and BJP.

Ganesan,

>> both Jinnah and Nehru demanded special status for muslims-Jinnah directly and Nehru indirectly.

A 33% minority would have a special status in any country. Just look at Canada or Lebanon.

Ganesan,

>> Jinnah did not have a bloated ego like Nehru.

Nehru should be credited with democracy taking a firm hold in India, and with India's modernistic bent, leading to technological advances. He was more than secular; he was a cosmoplolite.

And BTW< Jaswant Singh has merely stated that both Jinnah and Nehru demanded special status for muslims-Jinnah directly and Nehru indirectly. WHich is a fact.

"Now Jaswant Singh has come out with a book saying there was no difference between Jawaharlal Nehru and Mohammed Ali Jinnah! "

This is a ridiculous assertion. Jinnah did not have a bloated ego like Nehru. And Jinnah did not waste his time as head of state worrying about problems in Africa, Korea and Hungary while ignoring his own border and thus securing this country a massive defeat.

Rajiv was not a saint. I do not defend his alleged role in the post-massacre cover-up, his role in the Bofors scandal, and his role in the reversl of the Supreme Court decision in the Shahbano case. But the sanghi efforts to smear him with being a party to the Sikh massacre is an obvious attempt to mitigate Modi's culpability in the Gujarat massacre. One cannot mention Modi's perfidity without someone chirping in with, "But what about Rajiv?"

Now Jaswant Singh has come out with a book saying there was no difference between Jawaharlal Nehru and Mohammed Ali Jinnah! Smearing the Nehru-Gandhi family has become a full fledged mission of ths sangh parivar!

So let's get it straight. On one hand, RG may have helped shield the people and on the other it is insinuation and innuendo and Shamsul Islam kind of self-serving logic. Anwaarian logic would hold that RG protected and promoted Tytler & co though they are actually Sanghi. Perhaps that is why the Inner Conscience Soniamma has sent him to Bihar, to beat the other Sanghi, Nitish Kumar.

As I said, I wouldn't even waste my spit on the likes of such slaves.

Bowenpalle Venuraja Gopal Rao,

>> "I do not know ,but the killing of Sikhs in Delhi were organised, with murder gangs visiting perticular Sikh localities and were dragged out of their houses and butchered to death. I do not think Congress is a cadre based party. Since the party has been in power for very long time , it is very natural that many unholy elements,goondas enter the party. But still it is not at all a cadre based,training based party."

You make a very good point.

- "It is difficult to believe that Prime Minister Rajiv Gandhi, was unaware of the activities of important and well known members of his party for full five days."

These are the kinds of statements that are presented as the sole evidence!

Seshadri,

>> the sickness of reacting against actions is present in human behaviour.

And the capacity to condemn such sickness which drives people to go on a rampage of murder and rape is also a human attribute. The need to defend such sickness and to glorify the instigators is an asura attribute.

In one interview Mr.Manmohan Singh was asked the question as to why he should support/join congress when they are(Congress) accused of so many deaths of Sikhs during riots in Delhi.

He simply said that the killings were laregely organised by BJP and RSS cadres.

If it is true or false I do not know ,but
the killing of Sikhs in Delhi were organised, with murder gangs visiting perticular Sikh localities and were dragged out of their houses and butchered to death.
I do not think Congress is a cadre based party.
Since the party has been in power for very long time , it is very natural that many unholy elements,goondas enter the party.
But still it is not at all a cadre based,training based party.

At one time the then PM Rajiv Gnadhi had to hide behind bullet proof glass to give a public speech to very a smal gathering in Punjab.

After all this problems, it was BJP which came to power in Punjab.

In Gujarat, the riots were so organised that CM Modi soon realised that it was RSS,Shiva sena groups which arrived there were gaining power and they started neglicting even very CM himself.

He had immediately called for help, brought in ex-punjab cop to control the riots. Central forces were also brought in large numbers.

Killing of innocents can not be supported by any one simply because it is the greatest sin to commit.
If any one has any false illusions that it would teach a lesson to the minorities to behave themselves , that idea is foolish.
Take for example , the riots in Delhi in 1984 after Indira Gandhi assasination.
But very soon after a sikh youth of 27 years attempted to kill Rajiv Gandhi and he was nearly succssful.
He could not kill only because his pistol was jammed and it was very crude ,low range country made pistol that the buller could not reach 50 yards.

And see the Bombay blasts!! how many persons died in just few minutes ? this happened immediately after Babri masjid demoltion incident.

So the intention of the murder gangs is to come to power through a wrong means.
No one should think that they are ignorant and belive that it would inhibit fanatics,jehadis and they do not kill Hindus.
No one can think like that.
That is very irrational because, jehadis want a big divide between Hindus and Muslims. India should weaken, that is their only aim.

"in terms of sheer culpability and coverup, there is no difference between the two and Rajiv Gandhi gets the benefit of the doubt largely because of his people-like-us image "

Well said, Ajit. I agree with you. Rajiv was involved in playing religious politics later also during Shahbano case, but is always called as secular leader.

Muslim suffering as minority arouses more passion among media and seculars than sikh ( in 1984) or Hindu ( in kashmir) sufferings as minorities.

'Anwaar' is the self-appointed sage of sanctimonious, smug and self-serving sermons to all and sundry on this board. He is quick to brand every one who differs with him as a Hindutavadi in his puffed up, pompous posturing.

Those who followed the great 1984 cover-up know that the recent book by Manoj Mitta and Phulka, When a Big Tree Falls, documents Rajiv Gandhi's complicity. I don't have it at hand, as I am visiting India at the moment but it is interesting to see that 'Anwaar' seems to have a vested interest in dismissing all charges against Rajiv Gandhi as asinine.

One of the first reports on the carnage said this about Rajiv Gandhi:


"It is difficult to believe that Prime Minister Rajiv Gandhi, was unaware of the activities of important and well known members of his party for full five days (from October 31 to November 5). Mr. Gandhi had been the General Secretary of AICC(I) since 1982 and in charge of reorganising his party. He had been presiding over training camps for Congress (I) workers at various places. We wonder how after all these training programmes the cadres of Mrs. Gandhi's party could go on such a murderous rampage."

http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?228192

Here is a list of people identified by eyewitnesses:

http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?228203

I actually agree with what Reddy said, that Rajiv G did not seem to be fundamentally or viscerally anti-Sikh, unlike Modi who seems to have anti-Muslim vitriol in his DNA, but in terms of sheer culpability and coverup, there is no difference between the two and Rajiv Gandhi gets the benefit of the doubt largely because of his people-like-us image and the fact that he had a veneer of sophistication. If instead of a loutish demeanour, Modi also had the same, spoke better English, behaved with some couth and knew how to sound politically correct, perhaps the comparison would have been easier to do.

>> "the train-burning incident in Godhra was used by the BJP for "its cynical game of politics".

That is a quote from the report of the Citizen's Tribunal. They are not my words.

While Congress had a role in the Sikh massacre, not a scintilla of evidence has ever been produced against Rajiv. He was probably involved in the subsequent cover-up to protect the guilty Congressmen, but to think that he was directly involved in plotting a massacre while he was still dealing with the grief and shock of his mother's assassination, and when he had suddenly been thrust into a position of frightening responsibility is asinine.

The evidence against Modi in the Gujarat massacre on the other hand is substantial, and has led the Supreme Court to order SIT to investigate it further. Information about the fateful meeting in which Modi asked police to hold back during next day's bandh was given by one of his ministers who was present in the meeting.

Hindutvadis in this forum keep making assertions without producing any evidence, and when they don't have anything to say, they start making personal attacks to generate hate against posters who disagree with them, making their customary aspersions. Since they do not say anything of substance, I generally try to avoid responding to them. As past experience shows, they keep arguing long after they have lost the debate!

Seshadri,

>> for devout hindus in guj, it was 'religion-burning'.

And that justified going on a killing and raping rampage! You are truly a sick man.

Reddy :"Ha !! What else would you expect from just another bajrangi clone ! I surprised this dick is not another NRI but seems to feed off their energy"

could not come up with anything better than that? What a dickhead klutz you are reddy boy.. ..you will never learn .. you are still in larva stage ..just go back to where you oozed from.

REDDY said:

"Ha !! What else would you expect from just another bajrangi clone ! I surprised this dick is not another NRI but seems to feed off their energy."

Really, here is Reddy logic in all its glory calling others "your fellow dickheads in all your hate-filled glory".

Stop name calling, that is a sure sign of losers. Expain your
(i) Character certificate to Rajiv and Sonia.

Your and your friend Vivek's language is a sure sign lack of character.

This liberal mask is extraordinarily thin, fragile and non existent, does not withstand any scrutiny. A case of emperors new clothes.

Vivek Chatterjee, Calcutta, India Said:

"This Malavika is proud ballsucker of Modi. Modi is old and tottering.Nothing sort of would happen to Modi, if you suck him entire day."

Liberal Mask falls and out comes unadulterated ????

You would make your entire Secular/Liberal crowd very proud indeed !

Look at the brazen shamelessness, he was slandering the entire Gujarathis for electing Modi but has nothing but praise for Rajiv and Sonia.
Malavika

This Malavika is proud ballsucker of Modi. Modi is old and tottering.Nothing sort of would happen to Modi, if you suck him entire day.

Al Bundy said:

"Seculars like you would have a little credibility, if you spent at least 1/10 the time and effort in lambasting Rajiv, as you do in spewing venom against BJP and Modi."

I think it is a mistake to let these people occupy the 'secular/liberal' space in the discourse. These people are neither, scratch their liberal mask you see an ugly ???? (you fill in the blank). I think the need of the hour is to expose them, so that they cannot hide behind the liberal mask.

Pinaki S Ray said:
"Reddy you are caught redhanded the second time. You were searching for an escape route in your earlier post to me for blatantly distorting Malavika, there is none for you now."


Expecting basic human decency from those who give conduct certificates to Rajiv and exonerate Sonia for rehabilitating Jagdish Tytler is a non starter.

I am not trying to convince him, but to puncture his liberal pretentions. So that the other readers can see that behind the façade of liberal is an ugly fascist. There are quite a few of these folks trolling the net masquerading as liberals.

Look at the brazen shamelessness, he was slandering the entire Gujarathis for electing Modi but has nothing but praise for Rajiv and Sonia.

Reddy: "In fact Pakistanis dont even consider us a threat these days and most Pakistanis would like to live in peace with us ... despite the propoganda."

what a stupid thing to say.. considering the fact that pakis never felt threatened by india(read Reddy read you moron ..its written on the wall) ...it was and is their excuse to malign and bleed india which they will keep doing..But be sure there will come a generation of India which will give them a befitting reply unlike manmohan vajpayee et al

Amartya Sen derives vicarious pleasure at the expense of Hindu(India? Bharat) ..he equates Ashoka, Gautam Buddhan with Akbar...what a twisted mentality ..

REDDY YOU are a faggot you deserve a bundle of sticks up your you know what.

Reddy: "In fact Pakistanis dont even consider us a threat these days and most Pakistanis would like to live in peace with us ... despite the propoganda."

LOL! Your blinkered stupidity is more entertaining than your pretend intelligence.

Who knows, maybe that was the 'left backdrop' that encouraged Amartya Sen to explore Welfare Economics and we got some valuable ingredients in Economics like 'Sen's Approach'.

Seshadri,

>> were the victims of mumbai assault cremated secretly?

The Concerned Citizens' Tribunal said that the train-burning incident in Godhra was used by the BJP for "its cynical game of politics". "This was apparent in Modi's decision to take the charred bodies from Godhra to Ahmedabad even when the district administration had advised him not to do so. This was followed by a gross misrepresentation of facts by the RSS, the VHP and the Bajrang Dal, which created mob hysteria over the tragedy. The riots took place in such a katzenjammer deliberately created by the BJP."

This interview revealed the other side of this great personality. Indeed this interview increased my respect towards this much learned Nobel laureate. There is no partiality in his opinions; though a communist minded personality he criticized the adamant nature of his own close friends in the communist bandwagon. Especially his opine about our Prime Minister Manmohan Singh is praiseworthy.

Reddy Said

"... If a jury had to decide, clearly there would be a far greater crime quotient placed on murder as opposed to rape ..." Reddy

So Reddy knows the gravity of "murder" in comparison to "rape".

Now read this one from Reddy:

"..No i wasnt till you pointed it out but really (!!) .. does it make a difference if 'allowed' is replaced with 'committed' ? ..." - Reddy

So Reddy cannot discriminate the gravity between "allowed" and "committed" !!! Who on earth is going to believe Reddy in that ? This exposes complete moral bankruptcy of Reddy.

Reddy you are caught redhanded the second time. You were searching for an escape route in your earlier post to me for blatantly distorting Malavika, there is none for you now.

If you are a civilized man it is high time that you tender an apology to Malavika, otherwise you will remain shameless in the eyes of all right thinking members of the forum !

PS. Please read my earlier posts to make a full sense of this one, for brevity I have not repeated those here.

I will remain convinced, unless proven otherwise, that Reddy is a convert as pointed out by Dr Seshadri for a time.

He makes a perfect neo colonial agent of the Ango-Saxons
Malavika
The tragedy is Sen is not even that!! He says he is a friend of communists!! He is a perfect opportunist with no stand of his own. He believs in an agenda for his own career growth. Stupid media is always there to thrust greatness on such hyspocrites- birds of same feather after all.

18000 people would have run eighteen 1000 MW power plants , the money would've have been enough to pay their salary. What we hear about the wealth stashed there, that would have been sufficient to pay for the plants !
MANISH BANERJEE

From the contents of your past posts I consider you somewhat an intelligent person. But this post of yours has left me disappointed Manish.
You thought all the 18000 are employed in the temple? No way. There are umpteen trusts and charities, Dhrmasalas serving free food to a sea of humanity daily, hospitals for the disabled- they really do noble work for the polio affected children, a university and variety of colleges apart from many renovation projects which employ all these.

Also under the auspices of this temple free mass marriages organised for poor couples by giving them free clothes , gold mangal sutram etc. All these are run with temple income that pours into the hundi in crores daily.

There is no temple as well organised and welfare minded as Tirupati temple.
Varanasi, and Ayyappan temple too have lots of income but the goons who run them do not spend any for the welfare except some cosmetic gestures here and there.

Living a life is not merely electricity and production of goods as you seem to perceive . There is what is called inner soul which needs solace for real happiness. And many say they get that when they visit this temple.Though that is intangible its priceless. How can you compare apples and diamonds?
If you are a Hindu I recommend you to pay a visit to this temple to appreciate the welfare and glory. A real humbling experience is guaranteed.

It is heartening to see more and more readers becoming discerning, especially those with internet access. In spite of the unending propaganda unleashed by the likes of Nehru Dynasty TV(NDTV) and toutlook.

Here is what Amartya sen said in 2006

http://www.telegraph...6/07/27/nfaith27.xml

"Christian schools are perfectly acceptable but other faith schools, especially Muslim ones, are a big mistake and should be scrapped if the Government wants to encourage a unifying British identity, according to the man reckoned by many to be the world's leading moral philosopher.

Commenting on the damage that he believes is being done by Muslim, Hindu and Sikh schools, set up because the Government wanted to give them parity with Christian institutions, Professor Amartya Sen said: "I am actually absolutely appalled.""

This guy has no qualms privileging native religion of Britain, Chritianity over other religions in Britain. However the in case of India this same guy would have a hissy fit if Hinduism is similarly privileged. He makes a perfect neo colonial agent of the Ango-Saxons. Our media is most obliging and does not question his apalling hypocrisy. Ofcourse he is the darling of our 'supposedly liberal walas'.

Reddy Said:

"However i strongly believe the motives of Rajiv and modi were entirely different. Rajiv did not harbor absolute malice towards Sikhs whereas Modi was and is an unabashed Hindu fundamentalist."

Keep your psycobabble to your self. Neither Modi nor Rajiv confided to you.

Seshadri,

>> my infidel-pagan 'hindu' mind is incapable of appreciating the noughul-brit raj-dharma concepts.

"Infidel-pagan hindu" has nothing to do with it. Being dense is your personal attribute, not a community attribute. It is hardly surprising that you could not see the lack of "raj dharma" in Modi's behavior in 2002.

Bloody double standards of 'Anwaar' should make the likes of him realise why they would never carry any credibility with any non-partisan votaries of truth. Rajiv Gandhi was at least as guilty as Narendra Modi -- -- and that does not absolve or diminish Modi's culpability one iota. But these Congress dalaals do not have the courage to face the truth. I don't even think they need to be spat upon, frankly. The scum of the earth.

Perhaps 'Anwaar' will also provide a spin for how and why Rajiv Gandhi went out of his way to not only protect but promote all those who were known killers of Sikhs -- Tytler, Bhagats, Sajjans -- and yes, even Kamal Nath -- were all promoted, given cabinet ranks and what not. And why indeed is it that woman with the Inner Conscience allowing shoe-king Tytler to be appointed in charge of Bihar? If it weren't so tragic, and beneath contempt, one might even pity 'Anwaar' and his pathetic self-serving sermons and rationalisations on behalf of his masters and minders.

Now I have heard it all. 'Anwaar' quotes Shamsul Islam who shows Sherlockian deductive abilities and we should be thankful that he did not attribute the butcherings in Darfur and Palestine to the piece attributed to Nanaji Deshmukh. I wonder what Shamsul Islam and 'Anwaar' would say about what Deshmukh says in the same piece:

I am saying this, being a life member of the RSS, because on January 30, 1948 a Hindu fanatic, who was a Marathi and had no relation with the RSS, rather was a bitter critic of the Sangh, committed unfortunate killing of Mahatma Gandhi. On this occasion we also suffered the sudden eruption of hysteria, loot and atrocities of misdirected people.

Really, these Congress apologists and stooges have no shame at all. Next we'd hear that slipper king Jagdish Tytler and Sajjan Kumar and HKL Bhagat and Rajiv "Big Tree falling, earth shaking" Gandhi were framed by the RSS and suffered this blot on their spotless characters for 25 years. Suddenly it is all proved by a blog by known paranoid peddlers of conspiracy theories and their spokespeople who seem to have the full time occupation of posting wheedling messages on this board, calling everyone a Sanghi supporter and making an insufferable fool of themselves in the process.

Maha,

>> Can you give me some reference for this article ?

Here is the link to "The 1984 massacre of Sikhs and RSS". If the link does not work, copy-paste the URL into your address bar.

http://bhumkal.blogs...984-massacre-of.html

Vikram Chandra,

>>Indian borders make for a romantic and sad tale. I hope things will be corrected someday. We shouldn't be fighting with Pakistan or Bangladesh. It only helps the West and China.

Bangladesh can demand logical issues from India for its sustainability, that’s all. 1971’s episode has given the relationship a different dimension and ‘care’ is in its kernel. The west and China can operate Pakistan with ease. And they are in the operation, face to face, in hotels, rail stations, bazaars, trains….

"There was an article written on how similar the efficiency and the methods of the mob in Delhi were with the efficiency and methods of the Bajrangi killers 10 years later in Gujarat."

Can you give me some reference for this article ? Awesome logic though to link these two. How did everyone else miss it ? This way bajarangi killers can be actually linked to any riots.

Malavika,

>> More info on what happened and criminal/genocidal negligence Rajiv did.

We are talking about the first three days after the assassination of the Prime Minister, and the first three days in office for the new Prime Minister, who also had to deal with his grief and shock on the murder of his mother. While several Delhi area Congress leaders were involved in instigating the riots, the mobs did not consist entirely of Congressis. There was an article written on how similar the efficiency and the methods of the mob in Delhi were with the efficiency and methods of the Bajrangi killers 10 years later in Gujarat. And all these crocodile tears on the killing of the Sikhs seem to come from the same people who consider K.P.S.Gill, who killed more Sikhs than anyone else, to be a hero!

I must add that Atal Bihari Vajpayee did try his best to stop the Delhi mob. I salute him for that.

Ganesan,

>> he did say that when a large banyan tree falls, the earth will shake.

That was not a good thing to say, but it was said 16 days after the riots had ended, so it could not have contributed to the violence.

>> Or forcibly converted.

Forced conversions and fear-induced mass migrations are both deplorable, but neither of them can be called "genocide', which was the subject of discussion.

Seshadri,

>> if godhra had not happened, giuj-riots could not have happened.

Leave aside the fact that the Banerjee Commission considered Godhra train fire to be accidental, and witnesses on Tehelka tapes said it was not pre-planned but resulted from spontaneous mob fury. Gujarat riots could not have happened if after the Godhra train fire, the state government had done what it should have done, namely promised a thorough investigation, asked the people to keep calm, not paraded the burned bodies in the streets of Ahmedabad, reinforced police forces at key points in the cities, and not ordered the police officials to let the people express their anger on the VHP bandh day. Your mind is not capable of grasping what "raj dharma" means.

DIP,

I would shudder to live in a Andhra, which has more than half of the population subscribing to Islam or Christianity. It would dilute my religious identity in my own state, and would take benign measures to prevent the same. But my current status would seem like "romping around" to you, as you are subjected to different circumstances. I do empathize with religious minorities in Hindus, living in J & K, Pakistan or Bangladesh. They are not to be blamed for their plight, but India faces other serious issues at the moment that digging deep into Pakistan or Bangladesh, for course correction, would seem sillier. That is my only refrain.

Indian borders make for a romantic and sad tale. I hope things will be corrected someday. We shouldn't be fighting with Pakistan or Bangladesh. It only helps the West and China.

Banerjee,

The government should rather find ways to make effective use of money they collect from citizens. The black money goes to Tirupati, but if it isn't allowed to go there, it would land in foreign shores. CAG should submit a yearly report on how resources are utilized by TTD Board. That would bring in more accountability.

TTD's expertise in marketing can be utilized to boost tourism in India. It receives anywhere between 60,000 to 100,000 visitors every day.

Then to reward Jagdish Tytler Saint Sonia gave him Congress MP ticket.

When queried about Rajiv and his widows callous disregard for human life the usual suspects clam up.

They change topic and say "Modi is being deified". Well, it is figment of their imagination. We are just comparing Modi Vs Rajiv.

On a scale of 1-10, 10 being the most evil, if Rajiv ranks 8, Modi is behind him at 6 perhaps. Along with saint Sonia.

From the same url

http://www.dailypion...a-big-tree-fell.html

"Justice Nanavati’s report said, “The Commission considers it safe to record its finding that there is credible evidence against Jagdish Tytler to the effect that very probably he had a hand in organising attacks on Sikhs.” This is not an indictment, Mr Manmohan Singh and his Government decided, so why bother about it? Four years later they remain unrepentant, their attitude remains unchanged.

Two thousand seven hundred and thirty-three men, women and children killed in Delhi, another 2,000 killed elsewhere, scores of women raped, property worth crores of rupees looted or sacked. Families devastated forever, survivors scarred for the rest of their lives."

More info on what happened and criminal/genocidal negligence Rajiv did:

"So, here is the story, briefly told, of how more than 4,000 Sikh men, women and children were slaughtered; in Delhi alone, 2,733 Sikhs were burned alive, butchered or beaten to death. Women were raped while their terrified families pleaded for mercy, little or none of which was shown by the Congress goons. In one of the numerous such incidents, a woman was gang-raped in front of her 17-year-old son; before leaving, the marauders torched the boy.

For three days and four nights the killing and pillaging continued without the police, the civil administration and the Union Government, which was then in direct charge of Delhi, lifting a finger in admonishment. The Congress was in power and could have prevented the violence, but the then Prime Minister, his Home Minister, indeed the entire Council of Ministers, twiddled their thumbs."


From

http://www.dailypion...a-big-tree-fell.html

>A total of 18000(yes,eighteen thousand) employees take salary every month from TTD.
A sum of Rs.two billion (200 crore) are deposited in the Hundi of Sri Venkateshwara , the deity per annum.

What a colossal waste of manpower & money under government auspices. 18000 people would have run eighteen 1000 MW power plants , the money would've have been enough to pay their salary. What we hear about the wealth stashed there, that would have been sufficient to pay for the plants !

"What did Rajiv actually do that instigated or exacerbated the massacre of Sikhs? "

Well, he did say that when a large banyan tree falls, the earth will shake. That was his response when questioned about the violence in the capital.

"... Or forcibly converted." -
Al Bundy

Absolutely !!!

The reality of that conversion is that when these converts go for work in the Middle East, they are dumped by the Arabs in the same basket with the Hindus.

The Arabs look upon them as fundamentally Hindus because of their past religious affiliation in the family tree.

The same occurred with the fate of East Bengali Muslims when Yahya Khan and Tikka Khan unleashed their genocide in East Pakistan. They are on record for asking their soldiers "how many Hindus have you killed today ?" although these soldiers were killing the Bengali muslims!

>>>Just one temple at Trupati has gold and jewels worth more than 50,000 crore rupees.
Pedda Anna
new york, United States<<<<

Your comment gives me an impression that all the upper caste people might be eating the money and gold of Thirupathi-thirumala temple.

This in effect shows a hidden hatred for Hindu and Hindu way of life.

First of all , know that Govt is eating the money of Thirumala temple. And the govt. is not a "Hindu" govt. of a Hindu king.

A total of 18000(yes,eighteen thousand) employees take salary every month from TTD.
A sum of Rs.two billion (200 crore) are deposited in the Hundi of Sri Venkateshwara , the deity per annum.

Approximately 10,000 people get free meals everyday.
Mostly all those who stand in the queue and rush through those grills like cattle for this very good rice thali(free plate of rice and curries) are all very poor people.

There are universities (three) and many colleges all over AP and charity houses are running with this money, but you must include this Ministry of Endowments , and all of its IAS babus and clerks who enjoy salaries not from the Govt. but the expenditure for administration is debited to TTD account ! so much for our secular setup.

If you still think SC/ST or so called untouchables have no access to this temple or temples in general you are wrong.

Now to see an E.O. (executive officer is all powerful officer in temple admin) reserved for SC/ST is very common.
There is no desrimination on caste to enter temples.
It you have one or two exceptions like a Guruvayyur temple etc.,in Kerala or somewhere they are only exceptions.

If you have pre-indepandance mind set of some commies who still belive that there are "few handful of industrialists who control entire wealth of India" etc., and believed like many commies that "thieves thrive in temples and they spirit away idols and gold" and that is the reason behind descriminating against the entry of SC/ST people in the temples; then you are living in the past.

Now the temples administration itself is going in to the hands of SC/ST executive officers.

>>I am to know about Sen's obfuscations regarding these sundry silly matters!
K.Niranjan Sharma aka Vikshiptha

It is the misfortune of this country that the media made intellectuals are rarely honest intellectually.
Sen is a standing example. He lives all through in capitalist society, earns fat salaries and live a privileged life all at the cost of that society which gave him all those laurels he rests upon now and yet he says he is friend of communists!! Further he has the audacity to recommend us a generous prescription which is nothing but old communist wine in new bottle. What a hypocrisy?
India can do better without such dishonest intellects.

Seshadri,

>> if vajpayi had performed his own raj-dharma as pm, the godhra fire posdsibility should have been anticipated and prevented.

This is sheer rubbish. Your whole post is reeking with communal hatred.

Mr. Seshadri,

YSR is a christian, but Andhra people does not let it come in their way, while electing politicians. YSR thought all the way that his tenure as CM would mean abundant rainfall for his state, which was true for his first term in the office, but now with Krishna district, the rice bowl of Andhra, and the cultural capital of the state, being a drought-hit for the first time in many decades, the rain gods seem to have turned against him. It will be downward trend from here-on.

Seshadri,

>> only bec of that, islamists' terror acts have come to a full stop.

This shows what a despicable hate merchant you are. If a Chief Minister of a state facilitates murder, rape and arson of a minority community, it meets with your approval!!! Atal Bihari Vajpayee had to remind Modi of "raj dharma", but a scoundrel like you cheers Modi on!

dr sen is giving opinion on gujarat with biased mind. Gujaratis voted for modi after godhra/ahemdabad riots simply because congress didnot find necessary to condemn burning of hinuds in train and all parties and many in media (incl vinod mehta at that time) opted to focus on action/inaction at ahemdbad. if there is fair dealing than more than 90 pct of indian leaders will be penalaised for such action/inaction at some stage of their career. after first victory,modi is being voted due to performance of his government. see there is not a single major corruption allegation against modi or his ministers while u can simply see what you read/hear abt most others incl central govt.similarly does dr sen know that govt sponsered damage to muslims in nandigram was horrible and it was never criticised by major media/dr sen simply bec its nonbjp govt.
we respect talent of dr sen but he cannot take indians for granted while giving biased opinion.

as far as rahul is concerned , indians eagerly look forward to compare performance and non corruption of cong govt with modi in gujarat .

"Grow some balls, borrow some brains and rent a heart " AlBundy

Whenever a bajrangi loses an argument, he immediatly turns to abuse, which is the case in most erudite of bajrangis. Al Bundy, I think you should also grow some balls if they are of sub size. By the way, there are some machines in market that can fulfill your wish of seeing gigantic balls. Somebody can say the same thing to you.

Seshadri,

>> Gautham buddha is said to have suggested that, when someone spits on you, move off to a higher level.

But you are the most prolific spitter in this forum. Perhaps you don't even know it!

Seshadri,

>> all inconvenient truths are only 'lies' for you. professors do not lie.

These are not inconvinient truths. They are convinient lies invented by you in the cause of your vicious hate agenda.

>> I have never hesitated to point out the flaws among hindus.

Your pointing out the flaws of Hindus cannot be equated to your spreading hate against Muslims and Christians.

>> indian moslems like you ... keep throwing stones at hinduism as a bad religion.

I have never said anything bad about Hindus or Hinduism, but I have called you a liar whenever you tried to blame the Moghuls for the evils of casteism. Will you ever stop lying?

>> you, who try to defend Rajiv's actions during Delhi massacre.

What did Rajiv actually do that instigated or exacerbated the massacre of Sikhs? We know that several Delhi Congress leaders were involved. The Delhi Police were conspicuous by their absence, but we do not know how much Rajiv, while grieving the death of his mother, was personally involved in that. Granted that Rajiv may have participated in the post-massacre cover-up by not fully cooperating with the various probes. His statement about the mighty tree falling may have been crude, but it was made 16 days after the riots had ended, so it could not have contributed to the violence.

Compare this with the fact that Modi had the burned bodies from Godhra paraded in the streets of Ahmedabad, and had convened a meeting on the evening of February 27, 2002 in the Chief Minister's Bungalow, in which the police were instructed to let the people vent their anger during the VHP bandh on the next day, thus giving the bajrangis a free hand to kill, rape and burn, which they did.

Vikram Chandra,

>>You fight for a lost cause.

And your apathy is completely opposite of what Muslims feel about each other irrespective of country and class. Your feeling cannot be described as snobbery; it is your escaping mentality that is leading you to turn away your face from “Kashmiri Hindus, Paki, Bangla Hindus”. Take care of your yard where you are romping around.

Malavika
san jose, United States

Excellent !!!

I think you have exposed the guy inside out. It gives credence to what Dr Seshadri has been saying all along that he is a convert.

Reddy
Bangalore, India

"... Yes, Nehru. He allowed genocide of Hindu in Pak." - Malavika

Compare this statement now with your quoting of Malavika :

"... If Nehru committed genocide then i guess all of us Indians are lower than PolPot on a morality meter." - Reddy

I am amazed by your blatant distortion of Malavika's statement - you replace the wording "allowed" by "committed".

There is a hell of a difference in the implication, Mr Reddy !!! I am sure that you are cognizant about it.

You seem to cite the name of "Pol Pot" without any hesitation, but you are oblivious about the names "Tikka Khan" and "Yahaya Khan" in the same years of world history.

It is pertinent to point out to you the messages of warning delivered by the former US Secretary of State, Ms Albright, to the adversaries along the lines

"The US has long memories in the domain of politics and international political affairs".

You are going berserk by being caught out by Malavika in the same vein.

Malavika,

>> 90% reduction of Hindu population in Pak is not genocide?

A vast majority of them came to India. It is however sadly true that several thousnands were killed.

Malavika ji,

You fight for a lost cause. The truth is, Kashmiri Hindus, Paki, Bangla Hindus don't sell for a dime in India. I guess it's difficult for you to realize as you live in America. Weak identities cannot survive even you provide them some crumbs. These people will be forgotten or continue thriving in small numbers in times to come, remaining marrying into the other Hindu identities. I have come across few Kashmiri Hindus and they seem pro-islamic in their views, just because their identity is overshadowed by the Kashmiri Muslim identity.

vikram chandra, Visakhapatnam, India Said

"What do we do about the "lost" Hindus? Sit and cry? India is swarming with billion Hindus, most of them undernourished. Do we need excess?

What do you suppose we do with ?"billion Hindus" who are undernourished?

Sitting and crying does not help. Realising that what happened to Paki Hindus, Bangla Hindus and Kashmiri Hindus can happen to me and my family would help. You will not be so nonchalant.

Perhaps, we can stop lebensraum by Bangladeshi Muslims, who are intent on changing demgraphy of WB and Assam?

Malavika,

What do we do about the "lost" Hindus? Sit and cry? India is swarming with billion Hindus, most of them undernourished. Do we need excess?

Reddy said:

--"Check CIA fact book. "

This alone is reason enough to discredit your 'evidence' !! Does the CIA also give you evidence of Hindu genocide in Pakistan ?

CIA fact book is a compilation of facts which shows that Pakistani Hindu population is now 1%. It was 12% during partition.

You cannot do simple math and instead resort to adhomenium attacks.

You might be ignorant of the fact that CIA factbook is a compilations of facts. Do you have any other statistics to show that the Hindu population of Pak did NOT decrease 90%?

Or according to you a 90% decrease is not genocide?

Reddy said:

"Actually the closest thing to genocide in Pakistan was the Pakistani treatment of East Pakistanis (fellow Muslims by the way). A sense of history and commonsense seems to be in very short supply here."

Wrong again, you are an ignoramous. Here is a snippet from Senator Edward Kennedy's report to Senate Judiciary Committe in 1971.

"The Pakistanis were deliberately killing Hindus in East Pakistan"

"Army brutality and official anti-Hindu propaganda is causing Hindu exodous."

80% of the refugees were Hindus according to Mr. Johnson ( a State dept official). A fact attested by Senator Kennedy and the Indian Govt under Indira Gandhi.

Yes Pakis were brutal however the worst crimes like marking 'H' and singling out was reserved for Hindus.

Read up on their own Hamdoor Rahman Report(Ask Google God) which says
“The attitude of Army authorities towards the Hindu minority also resulted in the large scale exodus to India.”

According to
http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/SOD.TAB8.2.GIF

Bangladesh Hindu Population in 1961: 9.411 18.5% was reduced to 13.5%.

So, Mr Reddy what Historic sense are you talking about? Yours?

REDDY said:

"And by this you suggest that there was genocide of Hindus in Pakistan after Partition ? And this is what you attempt to pass off as a well-researched post with oodles of evidence ??"

Your intellectual honesty is non existant. You removed my statistic that Hindu population in Pak has reduced by over 90% (from 12% to 1%). Meanwhile the rest of PAk population increased several fold. Check CIA fact book.

90% reduction of Hindu population in Pak is not genocide but 700 Muslims (excluding those who died in police firing) in Gujarat is. 2000+ Sikhs murder in New Delhi alone is minor "earth shaking".

Seshadri Saab! Your words of wisdom ring with the power that is only associated with the truth.Its just too bad that this truth cannot be appreciated by semi literates with IQ levels somewhere between those of cretins and imbeciles. A result perhaps of unplanned apoptosis in these unfortunates?

Seshadri,

>> dalits are only post-moghul Bs.

You are such a liar! You will invent any lie to make muslims look bad and Hindus look flawless!

Seshadri,

>> excessive vehemence seen in your responses to my sugg on possible pak involve in the guj riots. you do appear to be more paki than indian, on this matter.

The vehemence is commensurate with the stupidity of your suggestion. It is not that I am Paki, but that you are a brainlss moron.

Really ?? Should we also thank the British for reducing our GDP and economy, which was second only to France at the turn of the 17 century, into a empty shell ?

Dear Reddy

When agriculture was the primary contributor of GDP, our country was certainly as good as or even better than many European countries to live. The very fact that India attracted Europeans is bcz of the relatively better wealth we had at that point of time.

But with the introduction of steam engine and the subsequent industrial revolution, the scenario started to change. The wealth generation was no longer solely confined to agriculture but the fast manufactured machine goods.

Introduction of electricity and telecommunications further hastened the shifting of source of wealth to leave agro based India lag behind the European countries, which quickly adapted to science and technology. Life in these countries improved leaps and bounds only after late 19th century.

Bear with me for giving our example. Originally, we are an agriculture family owning fertile lands in a village where there was centuries old good irrigation ( built by chieftain of Krishna Devaraya) . We could afford 3 meals a day and a feast a week. My great grandpa made a fortune in growing & selling Indigo dye stuff. I was told by my father that in those days we had such kind of cash in our hands we could easily afford to buy acres of land in prime Madras.

But with industrialisation and introduction of chemical synthetic dyes, our indigo was no longer wanted and we, once considered very rich by even city standards, are now lower upper or upper middle class. What’s the lesson? It’s because of nothing but inevitable industrial progress which shifted the fortunes. If our wealth had declined means we did not adapt to changing scenario with the same speed as it changed. Now I cannot keep blaming Bayer company in Germany which introduced azo dye stuffs replacing natural Indigo. Have n’t you seen the electrical engineers being outsmarted by SW guys in wealth and fortune? Who to blame if a father earns less than his son?

When this is so it is inappropriate to blame any. As far as me, adaptation to the changing trends can only keep one stay with the times one lives in. It is X std. social studies which teaches things to blame the past rulers for all our present troubles. I consider it childish and blame it on lack of real insight.

Also, I dare say compared to any country in the world - European, USSR, China, South east Asian and south American- we faced the least of troubles between 19th to early 20 century. Go and read some archives and some dispassionate serious works in a good library to know better. Millions died in these countries in wars and turmoil during this period but not in India.

It is only good old nostalgia to assume that India was very rich. Great pyramids were built by Egyptians. Do you give a damn to Egyptians now ?

Comparing one Mr.Modi with Nehru is one big nonsense.
Again comparing 1984 in the aftermath of assasination Indira Gnadhi with Gujarat riots is another nonsense.

Riots those were suppported,engineered by CM himself is different from riots resulting in the death of an assasination of a legendary PM .

Partition riots were started much before partition itself which were actively encouraged by Muslim league and its leader Jinnah and offcourse it was fanned by British officers.
Jinnah could bring pressure on Congress party through riots and mass murders. The highest number of murders of Hindus or say genocide took place in East Pakistan ,on Benagalis.
It was because Jinnah included the city of Calcutta in Pakistan (east side) which Lord Mountbatten opposed tooth and nail.

The riots due to political disturbance (partition), the riots due to social disturbance (assasination),
and the riots due to fanatics with one ultimate aim of gaining politcal power in Delhi are not same and can never be the same.

Riots took place when masjid was demolished,when rathayatra was taken out, and the blame can not be put on Hindus alone. In bombay blasts (after masjid demolition) hundreds of people died in one minute.
In Gujarat 25% Hindus also died according to the report placed in the parliament.

Mr.Sen was right when he said that with so much blood on their hands, BJP lost the election for the second time, people simply did not want more trouble and that is why they had shown the door to political parties they thought might cause the trouble.

So, Mr.Modi caused more harm to BJP than any one could have done. BJP top-cadre also made a mistake by calling Mode to give public speeches.
He was the "man loser" for BJP and they should have had the courage to disown him.
Vajpayee as PM during Guj riots should have dismissed the state govt. and should have decalred president rule, but there are vultures inside the BJP and when stupids combine with vultures , it is anybody's imagination as to what will happen.

About the British:
You do not need to be an econimist to understand how much British rule ruined the economy of India that is Bharat.
The salaries emperor Shajahan gave was more than the entire budget of England.
Much before the (total of ) salaries Great Ashoka gave to his distrit collectors was more than entire budget of England according to Romila Thapar's book on History.
Neither Ashoka nor Shahajahan ruled the entire country ,though both of them were keenly aware of Indian subcontinent's borders,names of the kings and the world outside Himalayas or out in the arab world.

Nobdody ruled entire India so far, even after partition of India.
Not even Nehru under democratic set up nor the great Alexander could conquor it.
Even British were to contend with principalties and independant kingdoms numbering about 65 or more.

They ruined the country's economy but could not uproot the indianness from indians. A land in Kashmir is a very holy land for an Indian in Kanyakumari and he would not care a terrorist or AK-47 fire to go there.

Earlier in British jamana or before the whole families went on bullock carts all the way to Kashi(Benares) and Amarnath travelling for years !!

The idea that British united India is just nonsense.
The "Bharat" has been there much prior to the advent of British traders.
They left the country after partitioning it on the basis of religion which never happened before and left about 65 kingdoms with a condition that Indian Union should not use military force to occupy them, it would be considered as an aggression on a foreign country ,a weak country.

I do not say that there is no positive side to british rule, or Alexander's invasion but eulogising the British and their rule was better than the present day govt. is nonsense , it is born out of ignorance.

Seshadri,

>> I am only saying 'perhaps' so; it has been said musharreff has a son living in the midwest of US. he could have assoc with a good moslem-service orgnzn like your cair.

Idiot, you insinuated out of thin air that I or an advocacy group I subscribe to had some involvement with the Gujarat massacre! Don't you have any sense of shame or decency at all? Are you totally demented?

Seshadri,

>> in his days, guatham buddha was the only one pleading for ahimsa.

He was Gautama Buddha. You are not.

>> intelligent guess-work is not 'lying'.

You are lying again. You had made a despicable accusation against me, saying, "Perhaps you yourself and your cair were associated with mooshakaasura musharreff in planning and executing it". That is not intelligent guess-work. It is a stupid and irresponsible insinuation. You are a shameless liar.

Malavika,

At the time of partition six million Muslims left India for Pakistan and eleven million Hidus left Pakistan for India. About one million Hindus, Muslims and Sikhs were killed. But the point is that neither Nehru nor anyone else could have prevented it. To put the blame on Nehru is stupid. There are however allegations of complicity by Modi and his government for the 2002 massacre. One of his ministers Maya Kodnani has been charged. Modi himself is being investigated by SIT on orders of the Supreme Court.

Vikram Chandra

I am afraid you are not fully aware of the circumstances when Dhawaleswaram Anicut on Godavari was built in 19 century.Water was flowing wastefully and people were not able to store it for irrigation leading tofood shortages.People were dying of hunger and that moved Arthur Cotton, a devout Christian to do something.
When he proposed to British Govt in 1847 for construction of barrage at a cost of about 48 lakhs it was something no one else had constructed before anywhere in the world!! Even Cotton did not build such a sized dam before! It was a difficult mission accomplished to turn Godavari districts into rice bowel of AP after 1852.And for that only Godavari people remember him as a demigod. In the same year work on Gannavaram Aqueduct was also commenced.Arthur Cotton had also built Kurnool- Cuddapah canal to irrigate the arid lands of rayalaseema. This was the beginning of APs agricultural revolution.
You are from Visakha patnam and you should know better that plans for Vizag port were drawn by him only.
How can you compare Vishweswaraya to Cotton who were more than a generation apart. Remember, there were no telecommunications and established rail lines at that time when Godavari barrage was built unlike when Nagarjuna Sagar was built. To blame the then administration is like blaming the long dead grandpa for not gifting a mobile.

A major portion of present AP was under Nawabs' rule and not direct British administration. That’s why it remained under developed. For the same reasons you find Hyderabad Railway station as a parody of majestic Madras central.

AP was no doubt not a great priority but it did get attention here and there. Andhra Medical College is the second oldest in Madras presidency- older than Osmania medical college. If you think AP did not develop in the then Madras province, I ask you, how much are we doing to the North East so many years after Independence? Is it as much as what is being done to New Delhi? For that reason of negligence AP got separated from TN and fortunately AP did well thereafter.

The Britts started development with Madras, Bombay and Calcutta, the main provinces to begin with. It’s the beginning of modern era. It sure would take time for progress.
Britts did maximum to to make Madras the southern star. Even today all that is good and well planned in Chennai is mostly the British built Madras which was considered ahead of Hong Kong and Singapore at the time of our independence.
We should take inspiration from those who did good us and try to exceed them

Reddy, Bangalore, India:

"Neither Nehru, nor Rajiv or the Abdullahs were directly involved in any massacre nor did they actively egg the rioters on to commit horrendous murders."

Neither did Modi. Show evidence of your slander. In 1967 Gujarat more people died than in 2002. Where is your outrage regarding 1967? Oh, right the world began and ended in 2002.

"Modi is complicit in this act and the nearest moral equivalent of Modi has got to be the Talibs in Pakistan. Modi was directly involved in taking the decisions that allowed the mobs to run riot and commit the atrocious acts. He co-ordinated the attacks and kept Central forces at bay so as to finish off his vile acts. And he then gets re-elected !! What does it say about Gujarathis at large ?!!! How these asswipes call themselves Hindu is beyond me. This murderer should be behind bars but instead, not surprisingly, he is a Hindutva star !"

Replace Modi with Rajiv Gandhi you are correct.

Fact 1. Rajiv Said “Some riots took place in the country following the murder of Indiraji,” ...
“We know the people were very angry and for a few days it seemed India had been shaken. But when a mighty tree falls, it is only natural that the earth around it does shake a little.”

Fact 2: RG called the troops later than Modi.

Fact 3: Nearly 300 rioters were killed in 2002 in Modi's Gujarat. Zero Congress thugs were killed in police firing in 1984 under Rajiv's administration.

So, Rajiv's administration is more guilty than Modi's administration.

Indians should be more ashamed of electing Rajiv in the aftermath of anti Sikh riots. B.t.w, Congress ruled states had anti Sikh riots not other states like A.P.

All your manufactured outrage is not fooling anyone, except your fellow travellers, I mean converts.

Those who directed riots like Jagdish Tytler were given Congress tickets by Saint Sonia not Modi.

Reddy, Bangalore, India:

The BS meter is running full tilt in Outlook as always.

YES, your post is a perfect example of that. Full of opinions without any evidence to back up your allegations.

"If Nehru committed genocide then i guess all of us Indians are lower than PolPot on a morality meter."

Again your opinion, bringing in Pol Pot implies that you resorted to speculation and " i guess". On the net involing Hitler, Pol Pot is a sure sign of some one not being able to make a coherent case.

Neither Nehru, nor Rajiv or the Abdullahs were directly involved in any massacre nor did they actively egg the rioters on to commit horrendous murders.

Modi is complicit in this act and the nearest moral equivalent of Modi has got to be the Talibs in Pakistan. Modi was directly involved in taking the decisions that allowed the mobs to run riot and commit the atrocious acts. He co-ordinated the attacks and kept Central forces at bay so as to finish off his vile acts. And he then gets re-elected !! What does it say about Gujarathis at large ?!!! How these asswipes call themselves Hindu is beyond me. This murderer should be behind bars but instead, not surprisingly, he is a Hindutva star !

Anwaar
Dallas, United States Said:

"There was genocide on both sides of the border. It was a mass psychosis. To say that Nehru could have stopped it is asinine."

Shameless lies.
Fact 1:
In Pakistan the Hindu population has come down to < 1% now, compared to over 10% during partition.

Fact 2:
In India the Muslim population has risen from 11% to nearly 13%.

So, there was no genocide in India. Only a Islamic supremacist would say there was genocide of Muslims in India.

Amwar, you spoke in the glorious tradition of Aurangazeb, Tuhlaq and Timur. Here is what Timur said

“My principal object in coming to Hindustan… has been to accomplish two things. The first was to war with the infidels, the enemies of the Mohammadan religion; and by this religious warfare to acquire some claim to reward in the life to come. The other was… that the army of Islam might gain something by plundering the wealth and valuables of the infidels: plunder in war is as lawful as their mothers’ milk to Musalmans who war for their faith.”

>> "Yes, Nehru. He allowed genocide of Hindus in Pak."

There was genocide on both sides of the border. It was a mass psychosis. To say that Nehru could have stopped it is asinine.

Seshadri,

>> Nationalist moslems on the internet in those days were themselves suspecting that.

As far as I know, you are the only screwball who has suggested that the Gujarat massacre was carried out by Pakistanis disguised as adivasis! Even your tarnished hero Modi has never said that.

>> Perhaps you yourself and your cair were associated with mooshakaasura musharreff in planning and executing it, to enable him to blame india for genocide on moslems in gujarat, in the UN meeting he addressed.

I have never seen anyone lying as shamelessly and irresponsibly as you do. A 'professor' would do that only if his brain has been eaten away by Alzheimer's.

Mr. V.S. Rao,

Thank you for correcting the goof-up in my previous post regarding railway minister. But it's true that British didn't care for the infrastructure needs of Madras province minus Tamil Nadu.

Some say Arthur Cotton barrage in Rajahmundry of East Godavari district, and Prakasam barrage along Krishna river in Vijayawada is something positive the British did in Andhra. But the Nagarjuna sagar Dam built by Visweswarayya, after independence, far outweighs the benefits accrued from both of them. It provided water to arid lands of Nalgonda, Mahbubnagar, Khammam and western Guntur. Now it even provides for water needs of water starved Kurnool with some modifications. The dams built by British in Andhra were built on lands already plush with water resources, to only channel the water in an efficient way for irrigation purposes. It could have been carried out even if they had not built them during their presence in India.

My point was how British only had some regions in mind while considering infrastructure development. Andhra suffered a great deal under them. The only university that came up during their time, the Andhra University, was built by Andhrites themselves, unlike Madras University.

"There are things to learn from America, but not about medical care for the masses. There is no country that provides us with a model."

This statement is surprising. Scandinavia provides a very good model. Sweden, Norway, Denmark and Finland have free quality medical care for all its citizens, guest workers, refugees and asylum seekers. Not that India should go the whole hog, but free quality medical care is worthy of emulation. As is free quality education upto pre-university level.

"Arjuna’s position has much to commend it. I am not saying he should not have fought the war, but his doubts were not dismissable, in the way that Krishna dismissed them. Krishna is clearly a niti person. How peculiar it is that someone as non-violent as Gandhiji, who was very inspired by the Gita, was on the side of Krishna, who is making Arjuna fight a war and kill people, when Arjuna is saying maybe I shouldn’t kill! "

This is a typical reductionist interpretation. I admire Prof. Sen for his moderate style and his anti-imperialist rebuttals to the likes of Niall Fergusen, but as a Sanskrit scholar he should have known that:

1. Gandhiji always preferred to view the war as a war within the soul. A war to overcome our inner demons and vices. He never said that it was a real war.
2. Adi Shankara has written extensive Bhashyas to come to the conclsion that the Gita teaches us non-violence, truth and detachment.

The differentiation between niti and nyaya is in the "wrong' category, but thats another long discussion. I remember the professor's earlier categorisation of paaNini as an Afghan!

I, being born a Hindu myself, will remain eternally indebted to you for your bold statement.

Pinaki S Ray

Your posts are sharp & intelligent. I like to see some from you.

"... Yes, Nehru. He allowed genocide of Hindu in Pak." --
Malavika

Nehru was Hindu by birth, Muslim by culture and European by education. He was a very clever person- he could easily fool the media to build for himself a halo.

He appeared quite democratic but he was THE emperor of Licence Permit Control Raj soon after freedom from British Raj to leash all our inherent entrepreneurial qualities. All that our Munshi Man Mohan Singh did was to just unleash them and the rest is history. Of course MMS has no clue on economics beyond unleashing the shackles Nehru lovingly gave us.

To the ordinary people Nehru seemed liberal but actually he was an economic dictator. Short of being called a Marxist he was no less red than his Soviet role models!!

A fact which many do not realise even today is that Indians had more economic freedom under British rule than Nehru's congress rule! Yes, umpteen rules of imports and controls of his regimen enriched only crooks in and around his party rather than the hard working normal law abiding citizens.

Even today we are not fully free of those economic shackles Nehru clamped us with- such is the colossal grip he had on India!!

But I respect him for few of his ideas like IITs, AIIMS, BARC and the (damned) dams that gave us some food.
But he is guilty of not drawing a robust plan to utilise the brilliant engineers and doctors graduated from the institutions he dreamed.

His government and the subsequent ones guided by silly socialist ideals thoroughly discouraged merit and stifled good pay only to encourage bright men migrate abroad than stay home to develop this country. Otherwise how can Malaysia be a better developed one than us.

Regarding his NAM, the less said the better.

"... Yes, Nehru. He allowed genocide of Hindu in Pak." --
Malavika
San Jose, United States

Absolutely !!! This is the greatest post I have ever read in the forums of Outlook. In fact, the genocide of Hindus are furthermore happening in the Kashmir Valley, if not the genocide has been completed there.

I, being born a Hindu myself, will remain eternally indebted to you for your bold statement.

Modi is less evil compared to Rajiv Gandhi, the Abdullahs and Nehru. Yes, Nehru. He allowed genocide of Hindu in Pak.

Seshadri,

>>>> Reddy: "Modi is a murderer"

>> Seshadri: you are probably saying it, to justify the murderous hate you feel for him, bec of his having been able to bring about trans-caste unity among the hindus of gujarat, making conversions by missionaries more difficult, to earn their living and congressmen winning elections also difficult, for the same reason.

The evidence is strong that he is responsible for the unnecessary deaths of over a 1,000 people, but let us wait for the SIT report on that. You however are the loony who claimed that Pakistanis disguised themselves as adivasis and carried out the murders!

“What all is left to be seen now is; a Nobel Laureate breaking Mikes during ‘ZERO HOUR’.”

Comment on Mr.Vikram Chandra's comment:
Regarding the state of railways in south India;CK Jaffer Sheriff from Karnataka was a Railway minister in 90's and before that he was a Minister of State for Railways.
Regarding the the first point about Madras province please refer to the works on India history (from British Archives) by Dharampal. The details/discussions are too large to quote here( I am a Physicist not a historian) to prove contrary to what you mention about 'development' in Madras during British rule (If I may misrule,rather !)

Madras, Calcutta, Bombay, all names changed now, were the nodal points from where British held a noose like grip over the entire Subcontinent, with inclusion of Karachi, perhaps. Even now those 3 cities carry British imprint like no other Indian cities. Large swathes of the land remained unaltered in terms of infrastructure and institutional development, they in turn only deteriorated to a worse state, places that were not found to be relevant for British interests in India, or that were not their domain of direct control.

A state like Tamil Nadu, which the British controlled in entirety(unlike hyderabad, mysore, travancore kingdoms of the other 3 states) called the Madras province, and where they put their best efforts to develop the irrigation, road, urban network, led to disintegration of the province, after India became independent. Even now Tamil Nadu benefits from what was left by the British. Like the Hong Kong of South India.

On the other hand Hyderabad, Bangalore, Visakhapatnam, Cochin have seen fruits of development only after British left India, when heavy industries, defence labs
, ports were established in the 60's through the 80's, which stood as the foundation for their further development. But even now Andhra Pradesh, Karnataka and Kerala lack good rail network, and the fact that there were no railway ministers from these states didn't help the conditions either.

Manish,

Maybe he has left those tasks for the 'doers'.

>I don’t think Dr. Sen really got a political agenda and trying to garden the field from where he can generate a prolific political launch.

Dr. Amartya Sen is too smart a man to have a 'political agenda' or pitching for 'political launch'. He knows better.

It's so the called non-political pedestals - there are many - he might be aiming at. But he is looking for a relaunch alright, reason he is so noncommtal about the burning issues of the day. Striving to be everything to everybody. Opinions suffixed by caveats. Even on the question of poverty & hunger he does not want to be strident.

I don’t think Dr. Sen really got a political agenda and trying to garden the field from where he can generate a prolific political launch.

Professor Sen was awarded Nobel Prize for Economics in 1998. The award was welcomed by other economists as a richly deserved recognition for both Prof. Sen's work, and for the field of development economics, which was overlooked by the Nobel Prize committee for so many years. Prof. James Mirrlees, the 1996 Nobel laureate for Economics said, ``It's a great news, and it is entirely proper that he should have got the award''. Sen had long been regarded as a front runner for the prize, and Prof. Mirrlees pointed out that he and his colleagues were ``not totally surprised'' at the news. The Nobel Prize committee cited Prof. Sen for his contributions to WELFARE ECONOMICS, and said that his work was marked by ``a particular interest in the most impoverished members of society.”

The Left Front Government in West Bengal should seek the wise and gentle counsel of Prof. Amartya Sen to prepare for next year's electioon.

The Left

Amartyas and Arundhatis are a pain in our you know what.They think once they get an award or a prize,they can abuse Narendra Modi to the hilt and bootlick Rahul Gandhi to their heart's content.It is a disgrace.

Bowenpalle Venuraja Gopala Rao,

You seem to have got me all wrong. All I wanted say was that the British created the instruments of governance which we inherited , retained intact & still using them. Narayanamurty in his autobiography said as much when he wrote that our bureaucracy has colonial mindset. We needed to improve upon them, replace/discard them when needed, to suit independent India's aspirations. Instead we not only retained the colonial form of administartion but successfully digenerated them. That is not endorsement of British rule or it's wrongs.

> Sen takes you around the world for your ticket,
gajanan

Exactly. I never heard him being specific on any problem. Vague and amorphous are his replies and solutions. I hate anybody mouthing utopian ideals, for they are far removed from reality. People of his ilk repudiate nature’s principle of the survival of the fittest and substitute it with eternal privilege for the numerical mass. But their dead weight leaves them floundering in the swamp of proletarian misery. Reality of nature is savage and bitter and it spares no one. One should accept certain realities and learn to live. If Sen thinks he knows better than he should teach us how .

Mere mouthing of wish lists and empty ideals like him is sillier than the book “ A Passage to India by N.Chowdhury. I consider it woolly headedness .

Sometimes I wonder if he really deserved Nobel. This interview of him even dimmed his image.

Whereas Sam Pitroda is very specific and practical minded. He was instrumental in changing our hopeless telecommunications into one of the best in the world. Yes, you can say so. My contacts say it is better than in USA. That is called achievement.

The photograph of A Sen with both his arms in the air looks like saying that he haS arrived on the political scene.

aAYA HU , kITNE sAPNE , kITNE aARMAN, DEKHO NA , dEKHO NA.

The sudden exponential splurge in his media savviness, which all politicians love ( the recent trend after getting elected to power is to remove their shirts, PUTIN, SARKOZY, OBAMA ANS SHOW OFF TO THE MEDIA) is an indication that he is clearly entering politics in India.

***"Very old people talk nostalgically about the British times, which we used to snigger at. With experience, one gets a sneaking feeling that may be there is some grain of reality in such looking back.
MANISH BANERJEE
KOLKATA, India"****


The Bengal famine was the best example for the British welfare system. It only proved that British rule was not a modern welfare based rule but sure footed on exploitation.

Famines like Bengal famine of British period came and gone plenty of times after independance but did not cause any such large scale starvation deaths.

Mr.Sen was right that famines dissappered with freedom.

Britsh ruled us for 200 years and so that it would have postive side as well. It does not mean that British rule was beneficial or benevolent or it gave freedom to citizens.
Health care was worst neglected part during British rule, they were least bothered even during famines and floods.
British education system to produce clerks and glorious clerks (Civil servants)was largely confined to cities while India lived in villages.

The British adminstration geared up only to collect revenue,keep law and order and transport all that Indian mines of copper,coal and gold could produce.
In order to have good control over entire india and also to transport forest wealth they laid railway lines with such efficiency and speed that
our corrupt indian politicians,beaurocrats and clerks combine could not have laid down railway lines , in another 200 years or may be another 500 years.

In free India,during PV Narasimha Rao time, a railway lines was laid from Bibinagar to Nadikudi in AP a 60 km distnace was the first (new ) railway line laid during free India!!

British tought us how to drink coffe, they introduced tobacco, made us modern with a dining table,and a very
propaganda type media , brought STD Syphillis,small pox,chicken pox and other sexual diseases also.

And yet, their language english is helping us in coping up with globalisation of the present day.
They kept up or propped up 65 kingdoms,divided India and left when they could not exploit any more.

Heard A Sen and M Yunus , both Nobels in India and Australia. Sen takes you around the world for your ticket, while M Yunus is more objective and to the point. Sen once called Panini an Afghan without taking recourse to how linguistics has evolved due to invasion from Ashavayana in Panini's time to Avagana during Varamihira , Abagana during Persian and then Afghan from Babars time.

In an interview to Dr RA Mashelkar . Dr A Sen says Indians have to be 10 times as good as a Westerner. What , is this "The idea of justice" Just read this below.
Was he as good as a westerner or was he ten times as good?
http://www.csir.res....leaders/DG/noble.pdf
Read below
http://www.thehindub...2009080550980900.htm
Q& A from above.
The paper by Ambedkar is on the consolidation of land holdings. The problem has come back.

Ambedkar’s paper was written in 1918, before he took his degree in law. His position was that consolidation and other such measures will not work because pressure on land is such that today if you consolidate, tomorrow again it will get split up. His argument is that the only way to deal with it is to get people jobs in non-agriculture areas. He was the second user of the term surplus labour.

The definition you see in the 1950s and 1960s was used by Ambedkar. In the early 1940s, amongst the responsibilities he held was planning. The model that he had in mind was transfer of labour from agriculture to non-agriculture through a process of industrialisation, reducing the burden on agriculture and thereby allowing agricultural transformation. This model was followed in subsequent Plans after the First Plan. But credit is rarely given to him.

Many Indians published between 1900-1945. Sen is mum on this. Why?? What are his views on The brilliant Dr BRA

>Difficult to agree with him.

Easier to agree with you, Sandilya. Sixty two years on, putting up all ills or any of the ills to the British is in way cover of our failures. Rather one can say despite being imperialist rulers with all their imperialist design , the British left us a very solid & sound state appararatus to build upon, which we , over these sixty two years, did everything to digenerate rather than take advantage of whatever we got.

Very old people talk nostalgically about the British times, which we used to snigger at. With experience, one gets a sneaking feeling that may be there is some grain of reality in such looking back.

We have inherited some terrible legacies and some good ones. We certainly inherited from the Raj the low literacy, the low attention to healthcare and complete neglect of the basic welfare and freedom of the population.
A.Sen

Difficult to agree with him.

After reading his views I get the feeling that Sen is an over ripe fruit- not much worth and is on the verge of getting spoilt. He is less than honest in his views. Like Sam Pitroda he has no clear solution for implementation for making this country a better place except mouthing the same high sounding nothing lefty rhetoric. I have more respect for specifics of Pitroda than rhetoric of Sen.

A Passage to England, he considers a profoundly silly book. Anyone with open mind will find in that book Nirad Chowdhury did not mince words to castigate the wretched landscape and times he lived but was discernibly patriotic and honest in his views. He believed in Anglo-Saxon fabric for all the good that happened around him. After my travel to Simla recently and seeing what the Britts did to build a rail line in that tough terrain I recollected his thoughts. We may deny the credit though it is due for the sake of political correctness but the hard work is undeniable.

How can one blame the British 62 years after independence for the present mess in our health care and education?
Honestly, if one goes through the history of health care in India it will be known that the Britts surely did more than what our politicos had done. They laid a solid foundation for those medical colleges built during their time with lasting legacy and that produced initially some of the leaders in the field which only got diluted with passage of time. Now they are left behind by the profit taking corporate sector.

In Chennai the Govt Eye hospital was established in 1810. It is second oldest eye hospital in the world after London’s.Its no longer a premiere institute. Who to blame except our political masters ?

Whereas NHS in Britain even today is government run and trusted by most patients. The nascent institutionalism in Health Care that existed during British times and two decades thereafter has all but vanished in India now.

British established vaccine factories in Coonor (TN) and Kasauli(HP) and had laid a clear plan of hygiene and sanitation in the towns which subsequently we chose to bid goodbye. Sanitary inspectors could inspect roadside food vendors and check adulteration etc but virtually it is free for all now. Our cities have ceased to be cities by any standard- just dump yards with stench. And you blame the Britts for that- a great self delusion, I guess.


The first underground sewage was laid in George town area of Chennai in 19th century but subsequently our natives did not even maintain it nor we planned such sewage even to the posh Anna Nagar.You still blame the past rulers?

The independent India has not built any new hospitals after building JIPMER, AIIMS and PGI in the sixties despite massive outlays in the central budgets but without any tangible outcome.
Nothing worthwhile has been done to improve Indian Medical Council established in 1936. So is FDA.

And same thing with education- the best colleges and universities still remain mostly those old ones which too have lost their original character long long ago.
Everywhere what we see now is callousness of our leadership and bungling administration which have no idea of trends and requirements.

Blaming others is the easiest route for excuse. Shame Mr Sen you are towing the line of self serving politicos rather than arguing for better services for masses you shed so many tears. Perhaps you are looking for employment a la Nilekani. So you have an agenda for yourself but not for this nation.

Dr. Sen is no longer the Master of Trinity college nor a professor in Amerca. He has wrtten a book & it needs to be promoted. Hence these flurry of interviews to the media.

One cannot be too opinionated on such a mission, nobody knows that better than Dr. Sen, no disrespected intended.

On outlook at least he has been up front. The TV interviews really did not do justice to a nobel lauriet. Besides that toothy, crunchy narssistic dandy of one channel, another channel deployed the guy who usually do filmstars & celebrties!

Dr.Sen speaks with courage and possesses an astute sense of polemics.His views on developmental issues and economic indices appear in sync with ground realities.He attempts to graph the performance of democracy in the last sixty years on the anvil of history and human welfare.Indeed,he is candid in his talk.

It is a disgrace he is dismissive of Narendra Modi without assigning any reason.Nagaraj

It is a disgrace that you are being highly rhapsodical about the dog, Narendra Modi, aka 'maut ka saudagar'. The problem with bajrangies from Bangalore is that they don't find any problem with a mass murderer as a prospective PM of India.They feel the more heinous criminal the more apt is he for PMs post, provided the crimes have been committed on a minority.

Amartya is yet another chamcha of the Gandhi-Nehru dynasty.It is a disgrace he is dismissive of Narendra Modi without assigning any reason.On the other hand, when every one knows that Rahul Gandhi is a stupid fellow,Amartya finds great virtues in him.Obviously,he is angling for something.It is a great misfortune that our country suffers from this type of tribe in increasing numbers.

Dr.Sen passes positive judgement on people from another era with supreme confidence- I refer of course to his unabashed admiration for Ashoka, Akbar and Buddha amongst others and claims to quote Jesus as well .Dr.Sen has obviously read about them from whatever records are available- Dr.Sen conveniently forgets that history is always written by the winner and is not necessarily a reflection of the truth OR is this pure naivete on his part. A lie repeated for a long enough period becomes the gospel – especially when chanted by the person in power. Even in the present era, in a supposedly modern democracy, with all the bombarding indulged in by the media, information is doctored and the truth remains elusive. Ashoka and Akbar were emperors and one would certainly not expect them to be introspective and self critical or be accepting of criticism. Sure hope he is not going to dazzle us with statements that Akbar and Ashoka were kind folks who went out of their way to provide justice to one and all. No emperor anywhere on planet earth became a supremo by following a non violent or democratic path. One may sound cynical but the truth is that truth always lies somewhere in between.
Dr.Sen is dismissive of Narendra Modi as a prospective candidate for the PM's post for reasons best known to him and he chooses not to elucidate .Dr.Sen chooses what he wants to believe and does not seem to bother about facts that could be contrary to his beliefs. One can only hope he does not have his friends from the Left, lined up for the post since he shares a fond relationship with them. Perhaps like a true communist he too believes in distribution rather than generation of wealth.
In his phenomenally one dimensional view of the conversation between Krishna and Arjuna, Dr.Sen seems to totally ignore the concept and importance of dharma in his blind search for justice. One gets the sneaking suspicion that Dr.Sen wishes for a utopian world where everything is just about perfect – no tears, no fears, no death, no destruction – only happy people tilling the land and having 3 meals a day. In his admiration for Gandhi perhaps Dr.Sen too has fallen for the utterly naïve belief that all are born and made equal as the children of God. Religion is indeed the opium of the masses and in his advancing years Dr.Sen seems to be making attempts towards reaching a religious high. The concept of Dharma and karma seem to be as alien to Dr.Sen as responsibility is to the politician.
Perhaps it is best for all that Dr.Sen restricts his outbursts to the world of economics and food distribution, instead of taking us on a pseudo intellectual trip.

another sychophant!

Rahul a talented man...my foot! ask those who know him... there not because of merit.... anyway another chamcha of the Gandhi family!

Dr Sen describes the latest Nehru-Gandhi, Rahul, PM-in-waiting, as "Trinity man ... very talented".

Very odd,for Modi is called a "liar" by the Trinity man, to the latter's mother, Modi is:"merchant of death". Neither of them have had the pleasure of tete-a-tete with the CM of Gujarat.

This particular branch of the Nehru-Gandhi clan has got blood on their hands: the massacre of our Sikh brothers and sisters, aided and abetted by Congressi merchants of death.

As for lies, Rahul did not quite complete his degree and his Italian mother told lies at election time of having got a "diploma"(sic and sick) from Cambridge University.

Bofors and a name beginning with Q... is for another day.
Jiten B.

While Sen's recurrent themes are literacy, healthcare, nutrition of children and nutrition of women of child bearing age, his commitment to democracy and free press is also strong. He is now more pragmatic on America, appreciating its liberal institutions but rightly criticizing its health care delivery system. He remains firm on condemning Modi and the blot of the Gujarat massacre. He feels at home with India's pluralistic heritage. Good interview.

Ashoka's history as we know it, is carved in stone. It's a scientific method in recording history, given that the stones take millions of years to form or disintegrate, and it takes considerable effort to crush them using force, depending on their geographical spread, size, type and location.

The history of more recent kings like Shivaji Raje Bhosle, Krishna Deva Raya, is laced with heavy dose of mystique, unlike Ashoka, who lived nearly 2000 years before them.

All the comments of Sen is bookish and superficial.He did know the bit of Indian psyche.If anybody is so ignorant of Hindu tradition, it philosophy, culture, caste effect on Hindu psyche how can he dare comments of Indian fault? Why not Sen given example of Japan and China, how both countries moulded psyche of their people and made tremendous progress. Why Sen want to imposed western values on India.
Our Politicians also doing same mistake, from Nehru on word all politicians imposed western model on Indian people that is why we are doing no progress in education, health and economic field.Only Mahatma Gandhi know Indian psyche so he got tremendous popularity, and he moulded right way to Indian politics,after him we blindly following western model and going worse and worse position.

>Now, I am on record as having said I don’t know whether the Indo-US nuclear deal was a good thing or a bad thing, I don’t have a strong view, unlike Manmohan who clearly thinks it is a good thing, and the Communist Party, which thinks it is the biggest disaster.

Dr. Sen is being ambivalent here. Is he a bit reluctant to commit himself on the issue. It is difficult to believe that after this huge deabte on the idssue, Dr. Sen has not given it some thought or formed some opinion of his own.

>I don’t think Narendra Modi is fit to be prime minister of India. But I haven’t seen the reports, so I won’t comment on the statements you cite. The person I know best among them is Ratan and it surprises me to hear that he could have said that.

After taking a sateforward view on the issue , Dr. is diluting his stance. That they said that & all of them present publicly endorsed that is a matter of public record now.

>There are issues to be dealt with, and the main issue is whether there is adequate engagement with the primary injustices in India.

Absolutely & spot on . We would have love hear Dr.Sen whether he thinks 'adequate engagement' with the 'primary injustices'is on or more could have been done or needed to be done. And few pointers for doing more.

>One thing we have learnt from the leadership of Mandela and Desmond Tutu is that there is no way of coming to terms with past injustice until those who commit it accept responsibility. Neither retribution nor forgetting, it has to be recognition and then coming to terms.

Did those who were responsible did take responsibilty? Was enough corrective was taken on the groud after token expression of regret? And was it too little too late?

>The country reacted well to the Gujarat riots with the exception perhaps of Gujarat itself.

Really? If at all, the country failed to react adequately.The Congress Pary did its utmost to evade the issue. Had it not been for a few NGOs, it would have been totally forgotten cahpter by now. It's a blot on the national conscience. You see forgetting it has its advantages for a powerful few.

>As an old friend, may I say something that people seem to miss? He is immensely well-behaved with absolutely everybody.

Good. But is that the all important criteria to judge? Or Dr. Sen does not want to take a position?

only moslems might have voted enblock against bjp, refembering gujarat and forgetting godhra. the main reason for all-relig mid-class india voting against bjp was probably bec of their siding with karat on the nuke-deal vote. suffering power cuts for long durations, they could not digest advani claiming his coming to power earlier was more urgently important to the country than going for greater energy-security thro nuke power also.
v.seshadri

Muslims have every right to block BJP from power, considering what they did to the Muslims in Gujarat. I wonder how an IIT professor could be so hate-filled.

I wish you had also asked Mr Sen what he thought about Mr Rao being PM - he was union home minister in 1984 when 4 times more Sikhs were killed like gajar-muli in 2 days! Also his views on his friend" becoming MoF under such a leader! That would have called Mr Sen's bluff.

A very interesting interview. Mr Sen's answers are frank and has a delightful sense of humour. His opinion on the P.M is apt
Krishnamurthy

A very interesting interview. Mr Sen's answers are frank and has a delightful sense of humour. His opinion on the P.M is apt
Krishnamurthy

I wish you had also asked Mr Sen what he thought about Mr Rao being PM - he was union home minister in 1984 when 4 times more Sikhs were killed like gajar-muli in 2 days! Also his views on his friend" becoming MoF under such a leader! That would have called Mr Sen's bluff.

only moslems might have voted enblock against bjp, refembering gujarat and forgetting godhra. the main reason for all-relig mid-class india voting against bjp was probably bec of their siding with karat on the nuke-deal vote. suffering power cuts for long durations, they could not digest advani claiming his coming to power earlier was more urgently important to the country than going for greater energy-security thro nuke power also.
v.seshadri

Muslims have every right to block BJP from power, considering what they did to the Muslims in Gujarat. I wonder how an IIT professor could be so hate-filled.

>Now, I am on record as having said I don’t know whether the Indo-US nuclear deal was a good thing or a bad thing, I don’t have a strong view, unlike Manmohan who clearly thinks it is a good thing, and the Communist Party, which thinks it is the biggest disaster.

Dr. Sen is being ambivalent here. Is he a bit reluctant to commit himself on the issue. It is difficult to believe that after this huge deabte on the idssue, Dr. Sen has not given it some thought or formed some opinion of his own.

>I don’t think Narendra Modi is fit to be prime minister of India. But I haven’t seen the reports, so I won’t comment on the statements you cite. The person I know best among them is Ratan and it surprises me to hear that he could have said that.

After taking a sateforward view on the issue , Dr. is diluting his stance. That they said that & all of them present publicly endorsed that is a matter of public record now.

>There are issues to be dealt with, and the main issue is whether there is adequate engagement with the primary injustices in India.

Absolutely & spot on . We would have love hear Dr.Sen whether he thinks 'adequate engagement' with the 'primary injustices'is on or more could have been done or needed to be done. And few pointers for doing more.

>One thing we have learnt from the leadership of Mandela and Desmond Tutu is that there is no way of coming to terms with past injustice until those who commit it accept responsibility. Neither retribution nor forgetting, it has to be recognition and then coming to terms.

Did those who were responsible did take responsibilty? Was enough corrective was taken on the groud after token expression of regret? And was it too little too late?

>The country reacted well to the Gujarat riots with the exception perhaps of Gujarat itself.

Really? If at all, the country failed to react adequately.The Congress Pary did its utmost to evade the issue. Had it not been for a few NGOs, it would have been totally forgotten cahpter by now. It's a blot on the national conscience. You see forgetting it has its advantages for a powerful few.

>As an old friend, may I say something that people seem to miss? He is immensely well-behaved with absolutely everybody.

Good. But is that the all important criteria to judge? Or Dr. Sen does not want to take a position?

All the comments of Sen is bookish and superficial.He did know the bit of Indian psyche.If anybody is so ignorant of Hindu tradition, it philosophy, culture, caste effect on Hindu psyche how can he dare comments of Indian fault? Why not Sen given example of Japan and China, how both countries moulded psyche of their people and made tremendous progress. Why Sen want to imposed western values on India.
Our Politicians also doing same mistake, from Nehru on word all politicians imposed western model on Indian people that is why we are doing no progress in education, health and economic field.Only Mahatma Gandhi know Indian psyche so he got tremendous popularity, and he moulded right way to Indian politics,after him we blindly following western model and going worse and worse position.

Ashoka's history as we know it, is carved in stone. It's a scientific method in recording history, given that the stones take millions of years to form or disintegrate, and it takes considerable effort to crush them using force, depending on their geographical spread, size, type and location.

The history of more recent kings like Shivaji Raje Bhosle, Krishna Deva Raya, is laced with heavy dose of mystique, unlike Ashoka, who lived nearly 2000 years before them.

While Sen's recurrent themes are literacy, healthcare, nutrition of children and nutrition of women of child bearing age, his commitment to democracy and free press is also strong. He is now more pragmatic on America, appreciating its liberal institutions but rightly criticizing its health care delivery system. He remains firm on condemning Modi and the blot of the Gujarat massacre. He feels at home with India's pluralistic heritage. Good interview.

Dr Sen describes the latest Nehru-Gandhi, Rahul, PM-in-waiting, as "Trinity man ... very talented".

Very odd,for Modi is called a "liar" by the Trinity man, to the latter's mother, Modi is:"merchant of death". Neither of them have had the pleasure of tete-a-tete with the CM of Gujarat.

This particular branch of the Nehru-Gandhi clan has got blood on their hands: the massacre of our Sikh brothers and sisters, aided and abetted by Congressi merchants of death.

As for lies, Rahul did not quite complete his degree and his Italian mother told lies at election time of having got a "diploma"(sic and sick) from Cambridge University.

Bofors and a name beginning with Q... is for another day.
Jiten B.

another sychophant!

Rahul a talented man...my foot! ask those who know him... there not because of merit.... anyway another chamcha of the Gandhi family!

Dr.Sen passes positive judgement on people from another era with supreme confidence- I refer of course to his unabashed admiration for Ashoka, Akbar and Buddha amongst others and claims to quote Jesus as well .Dr.Sen has obviously read about them from whatever records are available- Dr.Sen conveniently forgets that history is always written by the winner and is not necessarily a reflection of the truth OR is this pure naivete on his part. A lie repeated for a long enough period becomes the gospel – especially when chanted by the person in power. Even in the present era, in a supposedly modern democracy, with all the bombarding indulged in by the media, information is doctored and the truth remains elusive. Ashoka and Akbar were emperors and one would certainly not expect them to be introspective and self critical or be accepting of criticism. Sure hope he is not going to dazzle us with statements that Akbar and Ashoka were kind folks who went out of their way to provide justice to one and all. No emperor anywhere on planet earth became a supremo by following a non violent or democratic path. One may sound cynical but the truth is that truth always lies somewhere in between.
Dr.Sen is dismissive of Narendra Modi as a prospective candidate for the PM's post for reasons best known to him and he chooses not to elucidate .Dr.Sen chooses what he wants to believe and does not seem to bother about facts that could be contrary to his beliefs. One can only hope he does not have his friends from the Left, lined up for the post since he shares a fond relationship with them. Perhaps like a true communist he too believes in distribution rather than generation of wealth.
In his phenomenally one dimensional view of the conversation between Krishna and Arjuna, Dr.Sen seems to totally ignore the concept and importance of dharma in his blind search for justice. One gets the sneaking suspicion that Dr.Sen wishes for a utopian world where everything is just about perfect – no tears, no fears, no death, no destruction – only happy people tilling the land and having 3 meals a day. In his admiration for Gandhi perhaps Dr.Sen too has fallen for the utterly naïve belief that all are born and made equal as the children of God. Religion is indeed the opium of the masses and in his advancing years Dr.Sen seems to be making attempts towards reaching a religious high. The concept of Dharma and karma seem to be as alien to Dr.Sen as responsibility is to the politician.
Perhaps it is best for all that Dr.Sen restricts his outbursts to the world of economics and food distribution, instead of taking us on a pseudo intellectual trip.

Amartya is yet another chamcha of the Gandhi-Nehru dynasty.It is a disgrace he is dismissive of Narendra Modi without assigning any reason.On the other hand, when every one knows that Rahul Gandhi is a stupid fellow,Amartya finds great virtues in him.Obviously,he is angling for something.It is a great misfortune that our country suffers from this type of tribe in increasing numbers.

It is a disgrace he is dismissive of Narendra Modi without assigning any reason.Nagaraj

It is a disgrace that you are being highly rhapsodical about the dog, Narendra Modi, aka 'maut ka saudagar'. The problem with bajrangies from Bangalore is that they don't find any problem with a mass murderer as a prospective PM of India.They feel the more heinous criminal the more apt is he for PMs post, provided the crimes have been committed on a minority.

Dr.Sen speaks with courage and possesses an astute sense of polemics.His views on developmental issues and economic indices appear in sync with ground realities.He attempts to graph the performance of democracy in the last sixty years on the anvil of history and human welfare.Indeed,he is candid in his talk.

Dr. Sen is no longer the Master of Trinity college nor a professor in Amerca. He has wrtten a book & it needs to be promoted. Hence these flurry of interviews to the media.

One cannot be too opinionated on such a mission, nobody knows that better than Dr. Sen, no disrespected intended.

On outlook at least he has been up front. The TV interviews really did not do justice to a nobel lauriet. Besides that toothy, crunchy narssistic dandy of one channel, another channel deployed the guy who usually do filmstars & celebrties!

We have inherited some terrible legacies and some good ones. We certainly inherited from the Raj the low literacy, the low attention to healthcare and complete neglect of the basic welfare and freedom of the population.
A.Sen

Difficult to agree with him.

After reading his views I get the feeling that Sen is an over ripe fruit- not much worth and is on the verge of getting spoilt. He is less than honest in his views. Like Sam Pitroda he has no clear solution for implementation for making this country a better place except mouthing the same high sounding nothing lefty rhetoric. I have more respect for specifics of Pitroda than rhetoric of Sen.

A Passage to England, he considers a profoundly silly book. Anyone with open mind will find in that book Nirad Chowdhury did not mince words to castigate the wretched landscape and times he lived but was discernibly patriotic and honest in his views. He believed in Anglo-Saxon fabric for all the good that happened around him. After my travel to Simla recently and seeing what the Britts did to build a rail line in that tough terrain I recollected his thoughts. We may deny the credit though it is due for the sake of political correctness but the hard work is undeniable.

How can one blame the British 62 years after independence for the present mess in our health care and education?
Honestly, if one goes through the history of health care in India it will be known that the Britts surely did more than what our politicos had done. They laid a solid foundation for those medical colleges built during their time with lasting legacy and that produced initially some of the leaders in the field which only got diluted with passage of time. Now they are left behind by the profit taking corporate sector.

In Chennai the Govt Eye hospital was established in 1810. It is second oldest eye hospital in the world after London’s.Its no longer a premiere institute. Who to blame except our political masters ?

Whereas NHS in Britain even today is government run and trusted by most patients. The nascent institutionalism in Health Care that existed during British times and two decades thereafter has all but vanished in India now.

British established vaccine factories in Coonor (TN) and Kasauli(HP) and had laid a clear plan of hygiene and sanitation in the towns which subsequently we chose to bid goodbye. Sanitary inspectors could inspect roadside food vendors and check adulteration etc but virtually it is free for all now. Our cities have ceased to be cities by any standard- just dump yards with stench. And you blame the Britts for that- a great self delusion, I guess.


The first underground sewage was laid in George town area of Chennai in 19th century but subsequently our natives did not even maintain it nor we planned such sewage even to the posh Anna Nagar.You still blame the past rulers?

The independent India has not built any new hospitals after building JIPMER, AIIMS and PGI in the sixties despite massive outlays in the central budgets but without any tangible outcome.
Nothing worthwhile has been done to improve Indian Medical Council established in 1936. So is FDA.

And same thing with education- the best colleges and universities still remain mostly those old ones which too have lost their original character long long ago.
Everywhere what we see now is callousness of our leadership and bungling administration which have no idea of trends and requirements.

Blaming others is the easiest route for excuse. Shame Mr Sen you are towing the line of self serving politicos rather than arguing for better services for masses you shed so many tears. Perhaps you are looking for employment a la Nilekani. So you have an agenda for yourself but not for this nation.

>Difficult to agree with him.

Easier to agree with you, Sandilya. Sixty two years on, putting up all ills or any of the ills to the British is in way cover of our failures. Rather one can say despite being imperialist rulers with all their imperialist design , the British left us a very solid & sound state appararatus to build upon, which we , over these sixty two years, did everything to digenerate rather than take advantage of whatever we got.

Very old people talk nostalgically about the British times, which we used to snigger at. With experience, one gets a sneaking feeling that may be there is some grain of reality in such looking back.

Heard A Sen and M Yunus , both Nobels in India and Australia. Sen takes you around the world for your ticket, while M Yunus is more objective and to the point. Sen once called Panini an Afghan without taking recourse to how linguistics has evolved due to invasion from Ashavayana in Panini's time to Avagana during Varamihira , Abagana during Persian and then Afghan from Babars time.

In an interview to Dr RA Mashelkar . Dr A Sen says Indians have to be 10 times as good as a Westerner. What , is this "The idea of justice" Just read this below.
Was he as good as a westerner or was he ten times as good?
http://www.csir.res....leaders/DG/noble.pdf
Read below
http://www.thehindub...2009080550980900.htm
Q& A from above.
The paper by Ambedkar is on the consolidation of land holdings. The problem has come back.

Ambedkar’s paper was written in 1918, before he took his degree in law. His position was that consolidation and other such measures will not work because pressure on land is such that today if you consolidate, tomorrow again it will get split up. His argument is that the only way to deal with it is to get people jobs in non-agriculture areas. He was the second user of the term surplus labour.

The definition you see in the 1950s and 1960s was used by Ambedkar. In the early 1940s, amongst the responsibilities he held was planning. The model that he had in mind was transfer of labour from agriculture to non-agriculture through a process of industrialisation, reducing the burden on agriculture and thereby allowing agricultural transformation. This model was followed in subsequent Plans after the First Plan. But credit is rarely given to him.

Many Indians published between 1900-1945. Sen is mum on this. Why?? What are his views on The brilliant Dr BRA

***"Very old people talk nostalgically about the British times, which we used to snigger at. With experience, one gets a sneaking feeling that may be there is some grain of reality in such looking back.
MANISH BANERJEE
KOLKATA, India"****


The Bengal famine was the best example for the British welfare system. It only proved that British rule was not a modern welfare based rule but sure footed on exploitation.

Famines like Bengal famine of British period came and gone plenty of times after independance but did not cause any such large scale starvation deaths.

Mr.Sen was right that famines dissappered with freedom.

Britsh ruled us for 200 years and so that it would have postive side as well. It does not mean that British rule was beneficial or benevolent or it gave freedom to citizens.
Health care was worst neglected part during British rule, they were least bothered even during famines and floods.
British education system to produce clerks and glorious clerks (Civil servants)was largely confined to cities while India lived in villages.

The British adminstration geared up only to collect revenue,keep law and order and transport all that Indian mines of copper,coal and gold could produce.
In order to have good control over entire india and also to transport forest wealth they laid railway lines with such efficiency and speed that
our corrupt indian politicians,beaurocrats and clerks combine could not have laid down railway lines , in another 200 years or may be another 500 years.

In free India,during PV Narasimha Rao time, a railway lines was laid from Bibinagar to Nadikudi in AP a 60 km distnace was the first (new ) railway line laid during free India!!

British tought us how to drink coffe, they introduced tobacco, made us modern with a dining table,and a very
propaganda type media , brought STD Syphillis,small pox,chicken pox and other sexual diseases also.

And yet, their language english is helping us in coping up with globalisation of the present day.
They kept up or propped up 65 kingdoms,divided India and left when they could not exploit any more.

The photograph of A Sen with both his arms in the air looks like saying that he haS arrived on the political scene.

aAYA HU , kITNE sAPNE , kITNE aARMAN, DEKHO NA , dEKHO NA.

The sudden exponential splurge in his media savviness, which all politicians love ( the recent trend after getting elected to power is to remove their shirts, PUTIN, SARKOZY, OBAMA ANS SHOW OFF TO THE MEDIA) is an indication that he is clearly entering politics in India.

> Sen takes you around the world for your ticket,
gajanan

Exactly. I never heard him being specific on any problem. Vague and amorphous are his replies and solutions. I hate anybody mouthing utopian ideals, for they are far removed from reality. People of his ilk repudiate nature’s principle of the survival of the fittest and substitute it with eternal privilege for the numerical mass. But their dead weight leaves them floundering in the swamp of proletarian misery. Reality of nature is savage and bitter and it spares no one. One should accept certain realities and learn to live. If Sen thinks he knows better than he should teach us how .

Mere mouthing of wish lists and empty ideals like him is sillier than the book “ A Passage to India by N.Chowdhury. I consider it woolly headedness .

Sometimes I wonder if he really deserved Nobel. This interview of him even dimmed his image.

Whereas Sam Pitroda is very specific and practical minded. He was instrumental in changing our hopeless telecommunications into one of the best in the world. Yes, you can say so. My contacts say it is better than in USA. That is called achievement.

Bowenpalle Venuraja Gopala Rao,

You seem to have got me all wrong. All I wanted say was that the British created the instruments of governance which we inherited , retained intact & still using them. Narayanamurty in his autobiography said as much when he wrote that our bureaucracy has colonial mindset. We needed to improve upon them, replace/discard them when needed, to suit independent India's aspirations. Instead we not only retained the colonial form of administartion but successfully digenerated them. That is not endorsement of British rule or it's wrongs.

Amartyas and Arundhatis are a pain in our you know what.They think once they get an award or a prize,they can abuse Narendra Modi to the hilt and bootlick Rahul Gandhi to their heart's content.It is a disgrace.

The Left

The Left Front Government in West Bengal should seek the wise and gentle counsel of Prof. Amartya Sen to prepare for next year's electioon.

I don’t think Dr. Sen really got a political agenda and trying to garden the field from where he can generate a prolific political launch.

Professor Sen was awarded Nobel Prize for Economics in 1998. The award was welcomed by other economists as a richly deserved recognition for both Prof. Sen's work, and for the field of development economics, which was overlooked by the Nobel Prize committee for so many years. Prof. James Mirrlees, the 1996 Nobel laureate for Economics said, ``It's a great news, and it is entirely proper that he should have got the award''. Sen had long been regarded as a front runner for the prize, and Prof. Mirrlees pointed out that he and his colleagues were ``not totally surprised'' at the news. The Nobel Prize committee cited Prof. Sen for his contributions to WELFARE ECONOMICS, and said that his work was marked by ``a particular interest in the most impoverished members of society.”

>I don’t think Dr. Sen really got a political agenda and trying to garden the field from where he can generate a prolific political launch.

Dr. Amartya Sen is too smart a man to have a 'political agenda' or pitching for 'political launch'. He knows better.

It's so the called non-political pedestals - there are many - he might be aiming at. But he is looking for a relaunch alright, reason he is so noncommtal about the burning issues of the day. Striving to be everything to everybody. Opinions suffixed by caveats. Even on the question of poverty & hunger he does not want to be strident.

Manish,

Maybe he has left those tasks for the 'doers'.

Madras, Calcutta, Bombay, all names changed now, were the nodal points from where British held a noose like grip over the entire Subcontinent, with inclusion of Karachi, perhaps. Even now those 3 cities carry British imprint like no other Indian cities. Large swathes of the land remained unaltered in terms of infrastructure and institutional development, they in turn only deteriorated to a worse state, places that were not found to be relevant for British interests in India, or that were not their domain of direct control.

A state like Tamil Nadu, which the British controlled in entirety(unlike hyderabad, mysore, travancore kingdoms of the other 3 states) called the Madras province, and where they put their best efforts to develop the irrigation, road, urban network, led to disintegration of the province, after India became independent. Even now Tamil Nadu benefits from what was left by the British. Like the Hong Kong of South India.

On the other hand Hyderabad, Bangalore, Visakhapatnam, Cochin have seen fruits of development only after British left India, when heavy industries, defence labs
, ports were established in the 60's through the 80's, which stood as the foundation for their further development. But even now Andhra Pradesh, Karnataka and Kerala lack good rail network, and the fact that there were no railway ministers from these states didn't help the conditions either.

Comment on Mr.Vikram Chandra's comment:
Regarding the state of railways in south India;CK Jaffer Sheriff from Karnataka was a Railway minister in 90's and before that he was a Minister of State for Railways.
Regarding the the first point about Madras province please refer to the works on India history (from British Archives) by Dharampal. The details/discussions are too large to quote here( I am a Physicist not a historian) to prove contrary to what you mention about 'development' in Madras during British rule (If I may misrule,rather !)

“What all is left to be seen now is; a Nobel Laureate breaking Mikes during ‘ZERO HOUR’.”

Seshadri,

>>>> Reddy: "Modi is a murderer"

>> Seshadri: you are probably saying it, to justify the murderous hate you feel for him, bec of his having been able to bring about trans-caste unity among the hindus of gujarat, making conversions by missionaries more difficult, to earn their living and congressmen winning elections also difficult, for the same reason.

The evidence is strong that he is responsible for the unnecessary deaths of over a 1,000 people, but let us wait for the SIT report on that. You however are the loony who claimed that Pakistanis disguised themselves as adivasis and carried out the murders!

Modi is less evil compared to Rajiv Gandhi, the Abdullahs and Nehru. Yes, Nehru. He allowed genocide of Hindu in Pak.

"... Yes, Nehru. He allowed genocide of Hindu in Pak." --
Malavika
San Jose, United States

Absolutely !!! This is the greatest post I have ever read in the forums of Outlook. In fact, the genocide of Hindus are furthermore happening in the Kashmir Valley, if not the genocide has been completed there.

I, being born a Hindu myself, will remain eternally indebted to you for your bold statement.

"... Yes, Nehru. He allowed genocide of Hindu in Pak." --
Malavika

Nehru was Hindu by birth, Muslim by culture and European by education. He was a very clever person- he could easily fool the media to build for himself a halo.

He appeared quite democratic but he was THE emperor of Licence Permit Control Raj soon after freedom from British Raj to leash all our inherent entrepreneurial qualities. All that our Munshi Man Mohan Singh did was to just unleash them and the rest is history. Of course MMS has no clue on economics beyond unleashing the shackles Nehru lovingly gave us.

To the ordinary people Nehru seemed liberal but actually he was an economic dictator. Short of being called a Marxist he was no less red than his Soviet role models!!

A fact which many do not realise even today is that Indians had more economic freedom under British rule than Nehru's congress rule! Yes, umpteen rules of imports and controls of his regimen enriched only crooks in and around his party rather than the hard working normal law abiding citizens.

Even today we are not fully free of those economic shackles Nehru clamped us with- such is the colossal grip he had on India!!

But I respect him for few of his ideas like IITs, AIIMS, BARC and the (damned) dams that gave us some food.
But he is guilty of not drawing a robust plan to utilise the brilliant engineers and doctors graduated from the institutions he dreamed.

His government and the subsequent ones guided by silly socialist ideals thoroughly discouraged merit and stifled good pay only to encourage bright men migrate abroad than stay home to develop this country. Otherwise how can Malaysia be a better developed one than us.

Regarding his NAM, the less said the better.

I, being born a Hindu myself, will remain eternally indebted to you for your bold statement.

Pinaki S Ray

Your posts are sharp & intelligent. I like to see some from you.

"There are things to learn from America, but not about medical care for the masses. There is no country that provides us with a model."

This statement is surprising. Scandinavia provides a very good model. Sweden, Norway, Denmark and Finland have free quality medical care for all its citizens, guest workers, refugees and asylum seekers. Not that India should go the whole hog, but free quality medical care is worthy of emulation. As is free quality education upto pre-university level.

"Arjuna’s position has much to commend it. I am not saying he should not have fought the war, but his doubts were not dismissable, in the way that Krishna dismissed them. Krishna is clearly a niti person. How peculiar it is that someone as non-violent as Gandhiji, who was very inspired by the Gita, was on the side of Krishna, who is making Arjuna fight a war and kill people, when Arjuna is saying maybe I shouldn’t kill! "

This is a typical reductionist interpretation. I admire Prof. Sen for his moderate style and his anti-imperialist rebuttals to the likes of Niall Fergusen, but as a Sanskrit scholar he should have known that:

1. Gandhiji always preferred to view the war as a war within the soul. A war to overcome our inner demons and vices. He never said that it was a real war.
2. Adi Shankara has written extensive Bhashyas to come to the conclsion that the Gita teaches us non-violence, truth and detachment.

The differentiation between niti and nyaya is in the "wrong' category, but thats another long discussion. I remember the professor's earlier categorisation of paaNini as an Afghan!

Mr. V.S. Rao,

Thank you for correcting the goof-up in my previous post regarding railway minister. But it's true that British didn't care for the infrastructure needs of Madras province minus Tamil Nadu.

Some say Arthur Cotton barrage in Rajahmundry of East Godavari district, and Prakasam barrage along Krishna river in Vijayawada is something positive the British did in Andhra. But the Nagarjuna sagar Dam built by Visweswarayya, after independence, far outweighs the benefits accrued from both of them. It provided water to arid lands of Nalgonda, Mahbubnagar, Khammam and western Guntur. Now it even provides for water needs of water starved Kurnool with some modifications. The dams built by British in Andhra were built on lands already plush with water resources, to only channel the water in an efficient way for irrigation purposes. It could have been carried out even if they had not built them during their presence in India.

My point was how British only had some regions in mind while considering infrastructure development. Andhra suffered a great deal under them. The only university that came up during their time, the Andhra University, was built by Andhrites themselves, unlike Madras University.

Seshadri,

>> Nationalist moslems on the internet in those days were themselves suspecting that.

As far as I know, you are the only screwball who has suggested that the Gujarat massacre was carried out by Pakistanis disguised as adivasis! Even your tarnished hero Modi has never said that.

>> Perhaps you yourself and your cair were associated with mooshakaasura musharreff in planning and executing it, to enable him to blame india for genocide on moslems in gujarat, in the UN meeting he addressed.

I have never seen anyone lying as shamelessly and irresponsibly as you do. A 'professor' would do that only if his brain has been eaten away by Alzheimer's.

>> "Yes, Nehru. He allowed genocide of Hindus in Pak."

There was genocide on both sides of the border. It was a mass psychosis. To say that Nehru could have stopped it is asinine.

Anwaar
Dallas, United States Said:

"There was genocide on both sides of the border. It was a mass psychosis. To say that Nehru could have stopped it is asinine."

Shameless lies.
Fact 1:
In Pakistan the Hindu population has come down to < 1% now, compared to over 10% during partition.

Fact 2:
In India the Muslim population has risen from 11% to nearly 13%.

So, there was no genocide in India. Only a Islamic supremacist would say there was genocide of Muslims in India.

Amwar, you spoke in the glorious tradition of Aurangazeb, Tuhlaq and Timur. Here is what Timur said

“My principal object in coming to Hindustan… has been to accomplish two things. The first was to war with the infidels, the enemies of the Mohammadan religion; and by this religious warfare to acquire some claim to reward in the life to come. The other was… that the army of Islam might gain something by plundering the wealth and valuables of the infidels: plunder in war is as lawful as their mothers’ milk to Musalmans who war for their faith.”

Reddy, Bangalore, India:

The BS meter is running full tilt in Outlook as always.

YES, your post is a perfect example of that. Full of opinions without any evidence to back up your allegations.

"If Nehru committed genocide then i guess all of us Indians are lower than PolPot on a morality meter."

Again your opinion, bringing in Pol Pot implies that you resorted to speculation and " i guess". On the net involing Hitler, Pol Pot is a sure sign of some one not being able to make a coherent case.

Neither Nehru, nor Rajiv or the Abdullahs were directly involved in any massacre nor did they actively egg the rioters on to commit horrendous murders.

Modi is complicit in this act and the nearest moral equivalent of Modi has got to be the Talibs in Pakistan. Modi was directly involved in taking the decisions that allowed the mobs to run riot and commit the atrocious acts. He co-ordinated the attacks and kept Central forces at bay so as to finish off his vile acts. And he then gets re-elected !! What does it say about Gujarathis at large ?!!! How these asswipes call themselves Hindu is beyond me. This murderer should be behind bars but instead, not surprisingly, he is a Hindutva star !

Reddy, Bangalore, India:

"Neither Nehru, nor Rajiv or the Abdullahs were directly involved in any massacre nor did they actively egg the rioters on to commit horrendous murders."

Neither did Modi. Show evidence of your slander. In 1967 Gujarat more people died than in 2002. Where is your outrage regarding 1967? Oh, right the world began and ended in 2002.

"Modi is complicit in this act and the nearest moral equivalent of Modi has got to be the Talibs in Pakistan. Modi was directly involved in taking the decisions that allowed the mobs to run riot and commit the atrocious acts. He co-ordinated the attacks and kept Central forces at bay so as to finish off his vile acts. And he then gets re-elected !! What does it say about Gujarathis at large ?!!! How these asswipes call themselves Hindu is beyond me. This murderer should be behind bars but instead, not surprisingly, he is a Hindutva star !"

Replace Modi with Rajiv Gandhi you are correct.

Fact 1. Rajiv Said “Some riots took place in the country following the murder of Indiraji,” ...
“We know the people were very angry and for a few days it seemed India had been shaken. But when a mighty tree falls, it is only natural that the earth around it does shake a little.”

Fact 2: RG called the troops later than Modi.

Fact 3: Nearly 300 rioters were killed in 2002 in Modi's Gujarat. Zero Congress thugs were killed in police firing in 1984 under Rajiv's administration.

So, Rajiv's administration is more guilty than Modi's administration.

Indians should be more ashamed of electing Rajiv in the aftermath of anti Sikh riots. B.t.w, Congress ruled states had anti Sikh riots not other states like A.P.

All your manufactured outrage is not fooling anyone, except your fellow travellers, I mean converts.

Those who directed riots like Jagdish Tytler were given Congress tickets by Saint Sonia not Modi.

Vikram Chandra

I am afraid you are not fully aware of the circumstances when Dhawaleswaram Anicut on Godavari was built in 19 century.Water was flowing wastefully and people were not able to store it for irrigation leading tofood shortages.People were dying of hunger and that moved Arthur Cotton, a devout Christian to do something.
When he proposed to British Govt in 1847 for construction of barrage at a cost of about 48 lakhs it was something no one else had constructed before anywhere in the world!! Even Cotton did not build such a sized dam before! It was a difficult mission accomplished to turn Godavari districts into rice bowel of AP after 1852.And for that only Godavari people remember him as a demigod. In the same year work on Gannavaram Aqueduct was also commenced.Arthur Cotton had also built Kurnool- Cuddapah canal to irrigate the arid lands of rayalaseema. This was the beginning of APs agricultural revolution.
You are from Visakha patnam and you should know better that plans for Vizag port were drawn by him only.
How can you compare Vishweswaraya to Cotton who were more than a generation apart. Remember, there were no telecommunications and established rail lines at that time when Godavari barrage was built unlike when Nagarjuna Sagar was built. To blame the then administration is like blaming the long dead grandpa for not gifting a mobile.

A major portion of present AP was under Nawabs' rule and not direct British administration. That’s why it remained under developed. For the same reasons you find Hyderabad Railway station as a parody of majestic Madras central.

AP was no doubt not a great priority but it did get attention here and there. Andhra Medical College is the second oldest in Madras presidency- older than Osmania medical college. If you think AP did not develop in the then Madras province, I ask you, how much are we doing to the North East so many years after Independence? Is it as much as what is being done to New Delhi? For that reason of negligence AP got separated from TN and fortunately AP did well thereafter.

The Britts started development with Madras, Bombay and Calcutta, the main provinces to begin with. It’s the beginning of modern era. It sure would take time for progress.
Britts did maximum to to make Madras the southern star. Even today all that is good and well planned in Chennai is mostly the British built Madras which was considered ahead of Hong Kong and Singapore at the time of our independence.
We should take inspiration from those who did good us and try to exceed them

Malavika,

At the time of partition six million Muslims left India for Pakistan and eleven million Hidus left Pakistan for India. About one million Hindus, Muslims and Sikhs were killed. But the point is that neither Nehru nor anyone else could have prevented it. To put the blame on Nehru is stupid. There are however allegations of complicity by Modi and his government for the 2002 massacre. One of his ministers Maya Kodnani has been charged. Modi himself is being investigated by SIT on orders of the Supreme Court.

Seshadri,

>> in his days, guatham buddha was the only one pleading for ahimsa.

He was Gautama Buddha. You are not.

>> intelligent guess-work is not 'lying'.

You are lying again. You had made a despicable accusation against me, saying, "Perhaps you yourself and your cair were associated with mooshakaasura musharreff in planning and executing it". That is not intelligent guess-work. It is a stupid and irresponsible insinuation. You are a shameless liar.

Seshadri,

>> I am only saying 'perhaps' so; it has been said musharreff has a son living in the midwest of US. he could have assoc with a good moslem-service orgnzn like your cair.

Idiot, you insinuated out of thin air that I or an advocacy group I subscribe to had some involvement with the Gujarat massacre! Don't you have any sense of shame or decency at all? Are you totally demented?

Comparing one Mr.Modi with Nehru is one big nonsense.
Again comparing 1984 in the aftermath of assasination Indira Gnadhi with Gujarat riots is another nonsense.

Riots those were suppported,engineered by CM himself is different from riots resulting in the death of an assasination of a legendary PM .

Partition riots were started much before partition itself which were actively encouraged by Muslim league and its leader Jinnah and offcourse it was fanned by British officers.
Jinnah could bring pressure on Congress party through riots and mass murders. The highest number of murders of Hindus or say genocide took place in East Pakistan ,on Benagalis.
It was because Jinnah included the city of Calcutta in Pakistan (east side) which Lord Mountbatten opposed tooth and nail.

The riots due to political disturbance (partition), the riots due to social disturbance (assasination),
and the riots due to fanatics with one ultimate aim of gaining politcal power in Delhi are not same and can never be the same.

Riots took place when masjid was demolished,when rathayatra was taken out, and the blame can not be put on Hindus alone. In bombay blasts (after masjid demolition) hundreds of people died in one minute.
In Gujarat 25% Hindus also died according to the report placed in the parliament.

Mr.Sen was right when he said that with so much blood on their hands, BJP lost the election for the second time, people simply did not want more trouble and that is why they had shown the door to political parties they thought might cause the trouble.

So, Mr.Modi caused more harm to BJP than any one could have done. BJP top-cadre also made a mistake by calling Mode to give public speeches.
He was the "man loser" for BJP and they should have had the courage to disown him.
Vajpayee as PM during Guj riots should have dismissed the state govt. and should have decalred president rule, but there are vultures inside the BJP and when stupids combine with vultures , it is anybody's imagination as to what will happen.

About the British:
You do not need to be an econimist to understand how much British rule ruined the economy of India that is Bharat.
The salaries emperor Shajahan gave was more than the entire budget of England.
Much before the (total of ) salaries Great Ashoka gave to his distrit collectors was more than entire budget of England according to Romila Thapar's book on History.
Neither Ashoka nor Shahajahan ruled the entire country ,though both of them were keenly aware of Indian subcontinent's borders,names of the kings and the world outside Himalayas or out in the arab world.

Nobdody ruled entire India so far, even after partition of India.
Not even Nehru under democratic set up nor the great Alexander could conquor it.
Even British were to contend with principalties and independant kingdoms numbering about 65 or more.

They ruined the country's economy but could not uproot the indianness from indians. A land in Kashmir is a very holy land for an Indian in Kanyakumari and he would not care a terrorist or AK-47 fire to go there.

Earlier in British jamana or before the whole families went on bullock carts all the way to Kashi(Benares) and Amarnath travelling for years !!

The idea that British united India is just nonsense.
The "Bharat" has been there much prior to the advent of British traders.
They left the country after partitioning it on the basis of religion which never happened before and left about 65 kingdoms with a condition that Indian Union should not use military force to occupy them, it would be considered as an aggression on a foreign country ,a weak country.

I do not say that there is no positive side to british rule, or Alexander's invasion but eulogising the British and their rule was better than the present day govt. is nonsense , it is born out of ignorance.

Really ?? Should we also thank the British for reducing our GDP and economy, which was second only to France at the turn of the 17 century, into a empty shell ?

Dear Reddy

When agriculture was the primary contributor of GDP, our country was certainly as good as or even better than many European countries to live. The very fact that India attracted Europeans is bcz of the relatively better wealth we had at that point of time.

But with the introduction of steam engine and the subsequent industrial revolution, the scenario started to change. The wealth generation was no longer solely confined to agriculture but the fast manufactured machine goods.

Introduction of electricity and telecommunications further hastened the shifting of source of wealth to leave agro based India lag behind the European countries, which quickly adapted to science and technology. Life in these countries improved leaps and bounds only after late 19th century.

Bear with me for giving our example. Originally, we are an agriculture family owning fertile lands in a village where there was centuries old good irrigation ( built by chieftain of Krishna Devaraya) . We could afford 3 meals a day and a feast a week. My great grandpa made a fortune in growing & selling Indigo dye stuff. I was told by my father that in those days we had such kind of cash in our hands we could easily afford to buy acres of land in prime Madras.

But with industrialisation and introduction of chemical synthetic dyes, our indigo was no longer wanted and we, once considered very rich by even city standards, are now lower upper or upper middle class. What’s the lesson? It’s because of nothing but inevitable industrial progress which shifted the fortunes. If our wealth had declined means we did not adapt to changing scenario with the same speed as it changed. Now I cannot keep blaming Bayer company in Germany which introduced azo dye stuffs replacing natural Indigo. Have n’t you seen the electrical engineers being outsmarted by SW guys in wealth and fortune? Who to blame if a father earns less than his son?

When this is so it is inappropriate to blame any. As far as me, adaptation to the changing trends can only keep one stay with the times one lives in. It is X std. social studies which teaches things to blame the past rulers for all our present troubles. I consider it childish and blame it on lack of real insight.

Also, I dare say compared to any country in the world - European, USSR, China, South east Asian and south American- we faced the least of troubles between 19th to early 20 century. Go and read some archives and some dispassionate serious works in a good library to know better. Millions died in these countries in wars and turmoil during this period but not in India.

It is only good old nostalgia to assume that India was very rich. Great pyramids were built by Egyptians. Do you give a damn to Egyptians now ?

Seshadri,

>> excessive vehemence seen in your responses to my sugg on possible pak involve in the guj riots. you do appear to be more paki than indian, on this matter.

The vehemence is commensurate with the stupidity of your suggestion. It is not that I am Paki, but that you are a brainlss moron.

Seshadri,

>> dalits are only post-moghul Bs.

You are such a liar! You will invent any lie to make muslims look bad and Hindus look flawless!

Seshadri Saab! Your words of wisdom ring with the power that is only associated with the truth.Its just too bad that this truth cannot be appreciated by semi literates with IQ levels somewhere between those of cretins and imbeciles. A result perhaps of unplanned apoptosis in these unfortunates?

REDDY said:

"And by this you suggest that there was genocide of Hindus in Pakistan after Partition ? And this is what you attempt to pass off as a well-researched post with oodles of evidence ??"

Your intellectual honesty is non existant. You removed my statistic that Hindu population in Pak has reduced by over 90% (from 12% to 1%). Meanwhile the rest of PAk population increased several fold. Check CIA fact book.

90% reduction of Hindu population in Pak is not genocide but 700 Muslims (excluding those who died in police firing) in Gujarat is. 2000+ Sikhs murder in New Delhi alone is minor "earth shaking".

Reddy said:

"Actually the closest thing to genocide in Pakistan was the Pakistani treatment of East Pakistanis (fellow Muslims by the way). A sense of history and commonsense seems to be in very short supply here."

Wrong again, you are an ignoramous. Here is a snippet from Senator Edward Kennedy's report to Senate Judiciary Committe in 1971.

"The Pakistanis were deliberately killing Hindus in East Pakistan"

"Army brutality and official anti-Hindu propaganda is causing Hindu exodous."

80% of the refugees were Hindus according to Mr. Johnson ( a State dept official). A fact attested by Senator Kennedy and the Indian Govt under Indira Gandhi.

Yes Pakis were brutal however the worst crimes like marking 'H' and singling out was reserved for Hindus.

Read up on their own Hamdoor Rahman Report(Ask Google God) which says
“The attitude of Army authorities towards the Hindu minority also resulted in the large scale exodus to India.”

According to
http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/SOD.TAB8.2.GIF

Bangladesh Hindu Population in 1961: 9.411 18.5% was reduced to 13.5%.

So, Mr Reddy what Historic sense are you talking about? Yours?

Reddy said:

--"Check CIA fact book. "

This alone is reason enough to discredit your 'evidence' !! Does the CIA also give you evidence of Hindu genocide in Pakistan ?

CIA fact book is a compilation of facts which shows that Pakistani Hindu population is now 1%. It was 12% during partition.

You cannot do simple math and instead resort to adhomenium attacks.

You might be ignorant of the fact that CIA factbook is a compilations of facts. Do you have any other statistics to show that the Hindu population of Pak did NOT decrease 90%?

Or according to you a 90% decrease is not genocide?

Malavika,

What do we do about the "lost" Hindus? Sit and cry? India is swarming with billion Hindus, most of them undernourished. Do we need excess?

vikram chandra, Visakhapatnam, India Said

"What do we do about the "lost" Hindus? Sit and cry? India is swarming with billion Hindus, most of them undernourished. Do we need excess?

What do you suppose we do with ?"billion Hindus" who are undernourished?

Sitting and crying does not help. Realising that what happened to Paki Hindus, Bangla Hindus and Kashmiri Hindus can happen to me and my family would help. You will not be so nonchalant.

Perhaps, we can stop lebensraum by Bangladeshi Muslims, who are intent on changing demgraphy of WB and Assam?

Malavika ji,

You fight for a lost cause. The truth is, Kashmiri Hindus, Paki, Bangla Hindus don't sell for a dime in India. I guess it's difficult for you to realize as you live in America. Weak identities cannot survive even you provide them some crumbs. These people will be forgotten or continue thriving in small numbers in times to come, remaining marrying into the other Hindu identities. I have come across few Kashmiri Hindus and they seem pro-islamic in their views, just because their identity is overshadowed by the Kashmiri Muslim identity.

Malavika,

>> 90% reduction of Hindu population in Pak is not genocide?

A vast majority of them came to India. It is however sadly true that several thousnands were killed.

Reddy
Bangalore, India

"... Yes, Nehru. He allowed genocide of Hindu in Pak." - Malavika

Compare this statement now with your quoting of Malavika :

"... If Nehru committed genocide then i guess all of us Indians are lower than PolPot on a morality meter." - Reddy

I am amazed by your blatant distortion of Malavika's statement - you replace the wording "allowed" by "committed".

There is a hell of a difference in the implication, Mr Reddy !!! I am sure that you are cognizant about it.

You seem to cite the name of "Pol Pot" without any hesitation, but you are oblivious about the names "Tikka Khan" and "Yahaya Khan" in the same years of world history.

It is pertinent to point out to you the messages of warning delivered by the former US Secretary of State, Ms Albright, to the adversaries along the lines

"The US has long memories in the domain of politics and international political affairs".

You are going berserk by being caught out by Malavika in the same vein.

Malavika
san jose, United States

Excellent !!!

I think you have exposed the guy inside out. It gives credence to what Dr Seshadri has been saying all along that he is a convert.

Vikram Chandra,

>>You fight for a lost cause.

And your apathy is completely opposite of what Muslims feel about each other irrespective of country and class. Your feeling cannot be described as snobbery; it is your escaping mentality that is leading you to turn away your face from “Kashmiri Hindus, Paki, Bangla Hindus”. Take care of your yard where you are romping around.

>> you, who try to defend Rajiv's actions during Delhi massacre.

What did Rajiv actually do that instigated or exacerbated the massacre of Sikhs? We know that several Delhi Congress leaders were involved. The Delhi Police were conspicuous by their absence, but we do not know how much Rajiv, while grieving the death of his mother, was personally involved in that. Granted that Rajiv may have participated in the post-massacre cover-up by not fully cooperating with the various probes. His statement about the mighty tree falling may have been crude, but it was made 16 days after the riots had ended, so it could not have contributed to the violence.

Compare this with the fact that Modi had the burned bodies from Godhra paraded in the streets of Ahmedabad, and had convened a meeting on the evening of February 27, 2002 in the Chief Minister's Bungalow, in which the police were instructed to let the people vent their anger during the VHP bandh on the next day, thus giving the bajrangis a free hand to kill, rape and burn, which they did.

Seshadri,

>> all inconvenient truths are only 'lies' for you. professors do not lie.

These are not inconvinient truths. They are convinient lies invented by you in the cause of your vicious hate agenda.

>> I have never hesitated to point out the flaws among hindus.

Your pointing out the flaws of Hindus cannot be equated to your spreading hate against Muslims and Christians.

>> indian moslems like you ... keep throwing stones at hinduism as a bad religion.

I have never said anything bad about Hindus or Hinduism, but I have called you a liar whenever you tried to blame the Moghuls for the evils of casteism. Will you ever stop lying?

Seshadri,

>> Gautham buddha is said to have suggested that, when someone spits on you, move off to a higher level.

But you are the most prolific spitter in this forum. Perhaps you don't even know it!

"Grow some balls, borrow some brains and rent a heart " AlBundy

Whenever a bajrangi loses an argument, he immediatly turns to abuse, which is the case in most erudite of bajrangis. Al Bundy, I think you should also grow some balls if they are of sub size. By the way, there are some machines in market that can fulfill your wish of seeing gigantic balls. Somebody can say the same thing to you.

dr sen is giving opinion on gujarat with biased mind. Gujaratis voted for modi after godhra/ahemdabad riots simply because congress didnot find necessary to condemn burning of hinuds in train and all parties and many in media (incl vinod mehta at that time) opted to focus on action/inaction at ahemdbad. if there is fair dealing than more than 90 pct of indian leaders will be penalaised for such action/inaction at some stage of their career. after first victory,modi is being voted due to performance of his government. see there is not a single major corruption allegation against modi or his ministers while u can simply see what you read/hear abt most others incl central govt.similarly does dr sen know that govt sponsered damage to muslims in nandigram was horrible and it was never criticised by major media/dr sen simply bec its nonbjp govt.
we respect talent of dr sen but he cannot take indians for granted while giving biased opinion.

as far as rahul is concerned , indians eagerly look forward to compare performance and non corruption of cong govt with modi in gujarat .

Seshadri,

>> only bec of that, islamists' terror acts have come to a full stop.

This shows what a despicable hate merchant you are. If a Chief Minister of a state facilitates murder, rape and arson of a minority community, it meets with your approval!!! Atal Bihari Vajpayee had to remind Modi of "raj dharma", but a scoundrel like you cheers Modi on!

Mr. Seshadri,

YSR is a christian, but Andhra people does not let it come in their way, while electing politicians. YSR thought all the way that his tenure as CM would mean abundant rainfall for his state, which was true for his first term in the office, but now with Krishna district, the rice bowl of Andhra, and the cultural capital of the state, being a drought-hit for the first time in many decades, the rain gods seem to have turned against him. It will be downward trend from here-on.

Seshadri,

>> if vajpayi had performed his own raj-dharma as pm, the godhra fire posdsibility should have been anticipated and prevented.

This is sheer rubbish. Your whole post is reeking with communal hatred.

>>I am to know about Sen's obfuscations regarding these sundry silly matters!
K.Niranjan Sharma aka Vikshiptha

It is the misfortune of this country that the media made intellectuals are rarely honest intellectually.
Sen is a standing example. He lives all through in capitalist society, earns fat salaries and live a privileged life all at the cost of that society which gave him all those laurels he rests upon now and yet he says he is friend of communists!! Further he has the audacity to recommend us a generous prescription which is nothing but old communist wine in new bottle. What a hypocrisy?
India can do better without such dishonest intellects.

>>>Just one temple at Trupati has gold and jewels worth more than 50,000 crore rupees.
Pedda Anna
new york, United States<<<<

Your comment gives me an impression that all the upper caste people might be eating the money and gold of Thirupathi-thirumala temple.

This in effect shows a hidden hatred for Hindu and Hindu way of life.

First of all , know that Govt is eating the money of Thirumala temple. And the govt. is not a "Hindu" govt. of a Hindu king.

A total of 18000(yes,eighteen thousand) employees take salary every month from TTD.
A sum of Rs.two billion (200 crore) are deposited in the Hundi of Sri Venkateshwara , the deity per annum.

Approximately 10,000 people get free meals everyday.
Mostly all those who stand in the queue and rush through those grills like cattle for this very good rice thali(free plate of rice and curries) are all very poor people.

There are universities (three) and many colleges all over AP and charity houses are running with this money, but you must include this Ministry of Endowments , and all of its IAS babus and clerks who enjoy salaries not from the Govt. but the expenditure for administration is debited to TTD account ! so much for our secular setup.

If you still think SC/ST or so called untouchables have no access to this temple or temples in general you are wrong.

Now to see an E.O. (executive officer is all powerful officer in temple admin) reserved for SC/ST is very common.
There is no desrimination on caste to enter temples.
It you have one or two exceptions like a Guruvayyur temple etc.,in Kerala or somewhere they are only exceptions.

If you have pre-indepandance mind set of some commies who still belive that there are "few handful of industrialists who control entire wealth of India" etc., and believed like many commies that "thieves thrive in temples and they spirit away idols and gold" and that is the reason behind descriminating against the entry of SC/ST people in the temples; then you are living in the past.

Now the temples administration itself is going in to the hands of SC/ST executive officers.

"... Or forcibly converted." -
Al Bundy

Absolutely !!!

The reality of that conversion is that when these converts go for work in the Middle East, they are dumped by the Arabs in the same basket with the Hindus.

The Arabs look upon them as fundamentally Hindus because of their past religious affiliation in the family tree.

The same occurred with the fate of East Bengali Muslims when Yahya Khan and Tikka Khan unleashed their genocide in East Pakistan. They are on record for asking their soldiers "how many Hindus have you killed today ?" although these soldiers were killing the Bengali muslims!

"What did Rajiv actually do that instigated or exacerbated the massacre of Sikhs? "

Well, he did say that when a large banyan tree falls, the earth will shake. That was his response when questioned about the violence in the capital.

>A total of 18000(yes,eighteen thousand) employees take salary every month from TTD.
A sum of Rs.two billion (200 crore) are deposited in the Hundi of Sri Venkateshwara , the deity per annum.

What a colossal waste of manpower & money under government auspices. 18000 people would have run eighteen 1000 MW power plants , the money would've have been enough to pay their salary. What we hear about the wealth stashed there, that would have been sufficient to pay for the plants !

More info on what happened and criminal/genocidal negligence Rajiv did:

"So, here is the story, briefly told, of how more than 4,000 Sikh men, women and children were slaughtered; in Delhi alone, 2,733 Sikhs were burned alive, butchered or beaten to death. Women were raped while their terrified families pleaded for mercy, little or none of which was shown by the Congress goons. In one of the numerous such incidents, a woman was gang-raped in front of her 17-year-old son; before leaving, the marauders torched the boy.

For three days and four nights the killing and pillaging continued without the police, the civil administration and the Union Government, which was then in direct charge of Delhi, lifting a finger in admonishment. The Congress was in power and could have prevented the violence, but the then Prime Minister, his Home Minister, indeed the entire Council of Ministers, twiddled their thumbs."


From

http://www.dailypion...a-big-tree-fell.html

From the same url

http://www.dailypion...a-big-tree-fell.html

"Justice Nanavati’s report said, “The Commission considers it safe to record its finding that there is credible evidence against Jagdish Tytler to the effect that very probably he had a hand in organising attacks on Sikhs.” This is not an indictment, Mr Manmohan Singh and his Government decided, so why bother about it? Four years later they remain unrepentant, their attitude remains unchanged.

Two thousand seven hundred and thirty-three men, women and children killed in Delhi, another 2,000 killed elsewhere, scores of women raped, property worth crores of rupees looted or sacked. Families devastated forever, survivors scarred for the rest of their lives."

Then to reward Jagdish Tytler Saint Sonia gave him Congress MP ticket.

When queried about Rajiv and his widows callous disregard for human life the usual suspects clam up.

They change topic and say "Modi is being deified". Well, it is figment of their imagination. We are just comparing Modi Vs Rajiv.

On a scale of 1-10, 10 being the most evil, if Rajiv ranks 8, Modi is behind him at 6 perhaps. Along with saint Sonia.

Banerjee,

The government should rather find ways to make effective use of money they collect from citizens. The black money goes to Tirupati, but if it isn't allowed to go there, it would land in foreign shores. CAG should submit a yearly report on how resources are utilized by TTD Board. That would bring in more accountability.

TTD's expertise in marketing can be utilized to boost tourism in India. It receives anywhere between 60,000 to 100,000 visitors every day.

DIP,

I would shudder to live in a Andhra, which has more than half of the population subscribing to Islam or Christianity. It would dilute my religious identity in my own state, and would take benign measures to prevent the same. But my current status would seem like "romping around" to you, as you are subjected to different circumstances. I do empathize with religious minorities in Hindus, living in J & K, Pakistan or Bangladesh. They are not to be blamed for their plight, but India faces other serious issues at the moment that digging deep into Pakistan or Bangladesh, for course correction, would seem sillier. That is my only refrain.

Indian borders make for a romantic and sad tale. I hope things will be corrected someday. We shouldn't be fighting with Pakistan or Bangladesh. It only helps the West and China.

Seshadri,

>> if godhra had not happened, giuj-riots could not have happened.

Leave aside the fact that the Banerjee Commission considered Godhra train fire to be accidental, and witnesses on Tehelka tapes said it was not pre-planned but resulted from spontaneous mob fury. Gujarat riots could not have happened if after the Godhra train fire, the state government had done what it should have done, namely promised a thorough investigation, asked the people to keep calm, not paraded the burned bodies in the streets of Ahmedabad, reinforced police forces at key points in the cities, and not ordered the police officials to let the people express their anger on the VHP bandh day. Your mind is not capable of grasping what "raj dharma" means.

>> Or forcibly converted.

Forced conversions and fear-induced mass migrations are both deplorable, but neither of them can be called "genocide', which was the subject of discussion.