A Cover Story
Whether or not Taslima wants to wear the burqa is her call. She should not presume to speak on behalf of all of us (Let’s Burn the Burqa, Jan 22). The Islamic purdah has its own set of values, observed even by Christian nuns.
Khaleelur Rahman, Chennai

What great commentary from one of the brightest intellectuals to come out of this part of the world. Taslima shows the difference between a celebrity’s distanced take on political matters and active intellectual commitment. And, we in India wanted her to go back.
S. Bakshi, Rouen, France

My mother never wore a burqa. But she, and a whole generation of aunts, observed purdah. They still do. Happily. We girls got a good education and exposure to a liberal, western lifestyle. High qualifications and trappings of material success meant a completely different lifestyle; our knowledge on the Quran came much later. I still exist with my "self-respect, honour, confidence, separate identity, own opinion and ideals intact". Only, I wear a burqa now. By choice. I, and my enlightened "believing" sisters, are honoured to wear this "apparel" of "distinction" with our "heads held high". Long live the burqa, I’d say.
Rafiqs, on e-mail

With due respect to Taslima’s views, mediocre individuals like me would toe a middle line between the mullahs and the Nasrins. Proclaiming any one view to be absolute is foolish. Such things are a matter of individual choice as long as they don’t violate the law. I’ve seen burqa/ hijab-clad women being suppressed but I’ve also seen a hijab-wearing doctor doing a heart surgery. Freedom is about women’s right to choose; they have to decide whether or not to wear the burqa. What has to be condemned, though, is the exploitation of women in the name of religion.
Mohd Imran, Denver, US

The Angry Young Woman of Islam has lit a fire. Will it consume her or the burqa?
Jaipat S. Jain, New York

May God grant Taslima some sense before she talks like this about the Prophet, the holy Quran and Islam. But why is Outlook humouring her?
Mahmood Hussain, Chennai

Taslima is a true liberal. More power to her pen. But while I agree with her on the futility of the purdah, I don’t think donning a bikini (or burqini if you please) is more liberating for women. While women must be empowered to participate in all activities, freedom shouldn’t come to mean sacrificing her femininity.
S. Ram, Kerala

Quoting from the Quran and Hadith out of context and citing incidents minus any authentic reference, Taslima only sounds mocking, and not persuasive. She has no idea what standards the Quran demands from men when it comes to modesty. I have nothing to say about her but I can’t understand why Outlook is so fixated with the idea of cheap sensationalism that it has to use inferior, out-of-work writers who have nothing but falsehood to propagate.
Tanzil Rahman, Bangalore

Can’t admire Taslima Nasrin enough for her courage and indisputable logic.
Shrikant Bhat, on e-mail

I don’t support the hijab, but Taslima Nasrin’s blatant disregard for the Holy Book is appalling. It’s not the Quran that imposes the purdah but its self-proclaimed preachers.While I too oppose them, I wouldn’t swing to the Taslima kind of Islam-bashing either. She’s simply a woman with no faith.
Tanveer Saiyed, Muscat

I thought the issue was already decided, sometime in 1935, by the Allahabad High Court, where the judge was a Muslim and said that wearing or not wearing the purdah was the right of Muslim women, and men had no right or authority to force women to wear the same against their wishes, just by citing religious texts.
Subhash Madiman, on e-mail

Long live Taslima.
S.K. Tiwari, on e-mail

I think Taslima is a very courageous lady. But I doubt very much that her voice of sanity will reach the mullah-dominated Muslim mindset.
G.N. Seetharam, Melbourne

Are we Hindus any better that we should egg on Taslima so just because she lambasts Islam? We may not have any sanction in our holy books, but the Manus of our religion have tried enough to subjugate women through the ages. Women from ‘cultured’ families, married or unmarried, wouldn’t wear clothes revealing leg, bare arms, back or cleavage. Nothing would be said, and cliches like "Women look better in traditional clothes" or "The sari is sexier than other clothes" would clothe open disapproval, but the fact is that married, middle-class Hindu women don’t have the kind of sartorial freedom women in many parts of the world have. Whenever the incidence of rape or eve-teasing rises in our colleges, the first clampdown is on the clothes of female students. If a woman in revealing clothes is eve-teased or raped in a public place, even our leaders and judges are wont to say she asked for it. Taslima Nasrin writes of a culture she’s familiar with. It’s amazing how Hindus have latched on to it to bash Islam. Her central argument is about women’s rights and let us have an honest discussion on freedom of women of all ages to wear whatever they like.
Smriti Mishra, Mumbai

Taslima is a fearless, truthful, straightforward, brave person. Other women should follow her example and fight the social evils that plague them.
Shiv Kumar, Mumbai

I think Taslima should get an education in Islam before embarking on these flights of fancy about the Quran.
M. Rafi Sarvar, Sharjah, uae

If Islam ever becomes modern, it’ll be because of people like Taslima and Salman Rushdie who have the courage to challenge tradition.
Raj, Chicago

If upliftment is what women in the West exemplify, I’d pass. Women’s lib in the West is nothing but disguised exploitation of the female body, degradation of her soul, and deprivation of her honour. They have become tools in the hands of purveyors of sexuality in the name of ‘high art’.
Arif Jameel, Dubai, uae

Looks like another of her miserable books is about to be published, hence Taslima’s publicity stunt. Rest assured, no one’s buying it—her arguments or her books.
Shoaib, Mumbai

Agree with Taslima wholeheartedly. People don’t need to follow injunctions that were written hundreds of years ago. We have the Indian Constitution, the sure guarantee for our fundamental rights.
Selvan, Boston

Taslima is mistaken if she thinks her comments are legitimate just because Outlook chooses to publish them. We all know whose political agenda the journal is trying to follow.
Shazia Shaikh, Nagpur

It is not the Quran which considers woman as a sex object but Taslima.
Moonisa Abedi, Member, aimplb

On the basis of a piece she wrote, the All India Muslim Personal Law Board demands that our foreign ministry throw her out. It’s this closed mindset that has made the integration of Muslims with the mainstream so difficult. Rather than throw Taslima out, it’s the board which should be dismantled or its members replaced by educated, evolved people who think beyond religion and work towards the enlightenment of the community.
K. Vijayan, Chennai

All of Taslima’s allegations are based on a very partial understanding of Islam. Outlook should either get someone who knows the religion to talk about it. Else, leave Islam and its believers alone.
Dubeena Thameem, Kerala

Having openly revolted against Islam, what authority does Taslima have to speak on behalf of Muslim women who voluntarily observe its tenets? Muslim women all over the world find the burqa no barrier to education, career, social life; the purdah in fact allows them to feel free, secure and safe.
Tanveer Fatima, AP

PERMALINK

Hers, The Veiled View
Contrary to Taslima Nasrin’s claim that only women are ordered to veil themselves (Let’s Burn the Burqa, Jan 22), men too are subjected to purdah in Islam. There are three conditions to be fulfilled by a Muslim while dressing—(i) the dress should be loose so that the figure is not visible (ii) the clothes should not be transparent and (iii) cross-dressing is very strictly prohibited in Islam.
Saba Ansari, Allahabad

A head-scarved reader, I was shocked that Outlook could publish such biased tripe. Taslima Nasrin attributes the purdah to stories she makes up to suit her while saying she’s quoting the Hadith.
Simeen Mirza, Kozhikode

Just provoke the followers of Islam and get attention, that’s good ol’ Taslima at work.
Lemiya, Tumkur

I welcome Taslima’s courageous and outrageous position. But all religions have their unique traditions, and it is up to the followers to embrace or reject them.
Rajesh Sangram, Gulbarga

Let Taslima Stay In India



We uphold Taslima Nasrin’s right to speak forthrightly on any subject, including the burqa. It is her fundamental right. Instead of taking her on intellectually, her detractors are using a reprehensible way of suppressing her opinions. They are gathering outside her apartment in Calcutta, and demanding that the government should throw her out of the country. Keeping in mind that her visa expires by next week, this is a clear sign of intimidating her into retracting her views. It would be a shame if we who pride ourselves on our democratic traditions should refuse her asylum on this count. Or at the very least an extension of her visa.


KHUSHWANT SINGH, ARUNDHATI ROY, LEILA SETH, KULDIP NAYYAR, VIJAY TENDULKAR, ARUNA ROY, SHYAM BENEGAL, GIRISH KARNAD, SAEED NAQVI, Y.P. CHIBBER (GENERAL-SECRETARY, PUCL), SHANKER SINGH (MKSS, RAJASTHAN), NIKHIL DEY (MKSS, RAJASTHAN)

One Small Thing
It was a pleasant surprise to see Arundhati Roy stand among the ones supporting Taslima (Letters, Feb 12)!
J.S. Khurmi, Muktsar

You can add my signature in support of Taslima.
G. Natrajan, Hyderabad

""An excuse to single out and target Muslims

Even Muslim critics of the face veil, who insist that it has no sanction in their reading of Islam, do not necessarily support the French ban, says Yoginder Sikand

The French ban on the Muslim face veil that came into effect last week has added new dimensions to on-going debates about secularism, democracy, religion, identity, the freedom of choice and gender justice. There is no simple answer to many of the troubling questions that the ban has provoked. Unequivocally approving or condemning the ban, to take any particular side in the fiercely polarised debate about the ban, is not an easy option.

The French government has justified the ban on the grounds that visible demonstrations of religious symbols in public are an affront to the supposedly unique brand of French secularism. "

http://www.rediff.com/news/slide-show/slide-show-1-banning-the-veil-will-not-help-muslim-women/20110418.htm

Even the most educated and Westernied Muslims though disapprove many things in Islam but once confronted by Clergy in Mosaques they become pliant adherents to Sharia and Book. ,

This differene in  preaching and practice by the Believers World over  is the cause of confrontation between Islam and other Religeons.It is wrong to bifurcate Islam into Hard line and bengin Islam. Islam is only one per the great Book Quran which has clearly defined how  a Believer should perform when confronted with different situations like piey for the Poor and helpless Khuda ke bande irrrespective of ones Religeon and War on the enemies when confronted.

The problem arises that Muslims world over are sticking to Jihadi line of thought and thus are now in confrontation mode World over.Though on Jehad too the empasis is more for inner struggle than with the outsiderers.But unfortunately Clergy does not see so hence the strife.We see the consequences of wrong type of Jihad in Arab Lands ,West,India and Far Eastern Asia

Fight for retention of Burqua is nothing but manisfestation of the same wrong Jihad .

Muslims have accepted Whabism .Day by day opponents to Whabi Islam are weakening .Pakistan has accepted the Wahbism and compeltely silenced the vast majority of the Suffi adherents with even ohysical elemination. India too is witnessing theuncompromising and unaccomodative version Zakir Naik type Wahabism.

So  Burqua opposition is just a small but important sign of resistance to hard line Whabism .Sooner or later we will have same problems which west and other nations are facing that unaccomodative Islam .

Even the most vocal Secularists like Yoginder Sikand indulge in double speak on  Islam so other rationalists in India.

Ghai,

>> Nehru agreed for Muslims' retention in Inda in 1947

What a ridiculous comment! Nobody advocated either forced evictions or generous retention. Read the UN Declaration of Human Rights.
 

"College-going girls put fizz in burqa biz

Rafia Nausheen,project coordinator,Mahita,an NGO working for the empowerment of adolescent girls and women,says: The reasons range from deep religiosity,personal choice to a diktat by parents who insist that if the girl wants to pursue higher education,wearing a burqa is the condition cutting across class and age barriers.
A decade ago,the community was oblivious to the need to educate girls.Now,they recognize the value and are preferring to send them out in burqas, says Noorjahan Siddiqui,who heads the womens wing of Confederation of Voluntary Agencies,an NGO in the Old City.
Recording the growing trend of more young girls coming out of their homes and making it to colleges is the burqa bazaar,where mannequins are clad in a range of scarves covering their heads and tied firmly under their chins."

http://lite.epaper.timesofindia.com/mobile.aspx?article=yes&pageid=11&edlabel=TOIM&mydateHid=03-01-2011&pubname=&edname=&articleid=Ar01100&format=&publabel=TOI
 

Hopefully Education will enlighten the females and they will discard 7th Century Garments.

Nehru agreed for Muslims' retention in Inda in 1947 is the least problem . Real Problem is that he allowed Maulvies to stay behind.Pakistanis would  have been far far  happy with  those wise Mullas.So would have been Indian Muslims. 

Women have been discriminated in all societies for centuries (although in history we read about matriarchical societies among certain ancient civilizations). In the the modern times more progressive societies have tried to lessen the discrimination toward women. ( Even a century ago women were not eligible to vote in western democracies.) It is still a work in progress - but I doubt the mindset can change completely.
Those who believe that only Islam subjugates women through burqa and other discriminatory law are totally unaware how Hindu scriptures discriminate women. I am not talking about something as repulsive as Manusmriti, even any ritual defines inferior status of women during a puja. A menstruing woman is not supposed to be present during a puja. Irrespective of being from the same caste, a bramhin boy goes through the thread ceremony to become a bramhin, but that ritual is not meant for a woman born in a bramhin family. The widows in Bengali societies are not allowed to eat non-vegeterian, but that rule does not hold for the wodower.
Many of the rituals lost meaning in urban westernized Hindu families, but among more conservative families these rituals are still respected.
A burqa is certainly the means for discriminating women no matter how Muslims try to defend this custom as Allah's instructions to Muhammad.
The key message of Taslima's writing is the liberation of women in the context of Muslim societies. All Hindus and Muslims debating in this forum are only focusing on the content and interpretation of religious text as well as the greatness of their respective faith. Nobody speaks of liberation of women in their respective societies.

I am happy that finally Rajya Sabha has passed the women's resrvation bill- a small step toward handing over more power to women.

I just wanna ask Ms.nasreen ,whether she had read Quran herself or heard only as she had quoted verses from The holy Quran..if she have read it,then she very well knows that she is misleading people..In the holy Quran, wherever there is description of purdah..it starts with the purdah for men then for women and it is almost same for both..
Secondly, if it is a sign of oppression, then can you please tell me why all the muslim women are fighting for the right of wearing veil in almost all the parts of the world and perform purdah,like in france muslim women came on road against ban on veil...this because it is our identity and pride too..
Thirdly, when two girls, one in hijab and another without hijab goes out..Do you stare a girl who is in hijab or the girl without hijab..i hope you know the answer..
In hijab we muslim women feel safer,confident and secure..its provides us freedom..so better know the opinion of the people for whom you are writing before hurting their sentiments..

I may not agree with Taslima's many views and ways. Yet, she has an inalienable right to speak her mind.

i was amused by mall's post. The earlier post which i sent was addressed to everyone (the muslims and hindus..if you like this differentiation MALL..so please read carefully). Please remember that the days of the crusades and like are over. Free will pervades in most parts of the globe (and that is the reason why you and i and expressing our opinion). One basic question to everyone (hindu / muslim / buddhist / christian) - 99% of the people practising a particular religion do so because they were born in that religion? Did you have a choice while being born? Point again being that please do not work towards bringing the days of the crusades etc back.(the world already has enough troubles). Please make the next generation aware that they belong to a particular religionbut please do not breed fundamentalists. FREE WILL & HUMANITY - please respect both. And please..dont disguise your comments as intellectual polemic.

taslima for gods sake was expressing her individual opinion. We need to respect it and not necessarily approve it. Religion and its ways are a matter of personal choice. Some of the posts in the past 2 months maligning different religions are suggestive of an absolutely insular attitude. Guys take a break and examine your sensibilities.

"... a little-known conservative Muslim group on Friday offered a Rs 5 lakh bounty for the head of controversial Bangladeshi author Taslima Nasreen. President of the All India Ibtehad Council, Taqi Raza Khan ordered the elimination (qatal) of the exiled novelist" (The Times of India).

As I said when UP cabinet minister Qureshi took out a fatwa against the Danish cartoonists, such fatwas should be seen as incitements to murder and should be subject to criminal prosecution. While Muslims may find Taslima Nasreen's views to be offensive, she has every right to express them. Those who disagree should express their disagreement in a peaceful, civilized way. In democracies, freedom of expression is sacrosanct, and the sooner Muslims come to terms with that fact, the better.

I had no idea Taslima Nasreen was such a frusto. I can feel her pain...lol. She really deserves a lot of publicity for this especially in the west. She must be aspiring for US/UK citizenship now. Real bad outlook gave her the platform for her stupid writing and publicity.

give her passport not visa

There is a gulf of a difference between cross dressing, Mr. Parbat Laldeng, and unisexual dressing. You are unable to distinguish between the two. Hence a small hint is given
below.


--------------------------------
------------------------------------------------R>
What is Cross-Dressing?
Cross-dressing involves men becoming sexually aroused by dressing in women's clothing.
What is the psychiatric diagnosis for this behavior?
The clinical term for cross-dressing is transvestic fetishism (TF).

Doesn't Imran Khan not go in for cross-dressing? With his shalwar-qamiz?

I have seen Paks in Denver who look like women because of shalwar-kamiz dress, and Arabs who seem like ladies becausre they wear robes.

So who says cross-dressing is alien to the peoples of that faith?

Again A globally controversial and redical islamic topic choosed by Madam Nasreen.
Are your talkings a quest for reviving Islam and its illness or you are verbal/writing for women's eqality with respect to Men's hegemony in the present social structure.
Burqa is religious symbol for Women in Islam....sickness is associated with it in for of restrictions and cruelity which is inturn a basic property of Islam.
Now after some day you will laugh over Sikh men and say that their 'Pagri' should be removed and they should be like other Hindu brothers.
Other issues are still pending for women's education madam Nasreen.
Educate them.

shmpradeep.blogspot.com

Rafiqa's comments given in this column represents the stand of thousands of Muslim women who have started wearing burqa realising its importance. There cannot be two opinions about the fact that Burqa is a protection to women. A burqa clad woman is safe from so many unwanted things. This sort of apparel is used even by Christian nuns for the reasons best known to all. It is a dignified dress.

During the past 10 years even those families who never knew burqa have adopted it voluntarily. If Taslima Nasreen is against it, our sympathies are with her because she is in a tight corner and wants to do something which can keep her in the lime light. It is her business and she lives on this. She is not capable of writing any healthy article. All she knows is throwing mud on others for getting attention. She will realise her blunders one day. I also think that she is so furious because of the treatment she received in Bangladesh.May God show her the right path.

Watch the wording of the protest against the "Detractors".
Had it been against the demonstrations outside M.F.Hussein's house the words "Hindu Fundamentalists, Hindu Fanatics, Hindu Communal elements, Hindu Fascists" etc would have flown freely from these SECULAR people.
Here They are talking about "Taking her on Intellectually" so implying that there IS something which is not agreeable to all & it needs to be contested. As far as Hussein's paintings were concerned these same people were giving examples of Nudity in Indian Scriptures & Mythlogy to support his RIGHT to paint the SARASWATI Nude. They didn't talk about,"Taking Hussein on Intellectually"
Cowards & Selectively Secular.

those who cover their heads cover their minds also. though targeted at burqua her remarks should be taken with a pinch of salt at least by headgear wearing (covering) sardar khushwant singh. has he and his fretarnity closed minded. perhaps yes!

Nice to know that these famous media personalities are supporting one lady Taslima Nasreen for her fundamental right of hurting the feelings of millions of other human beings, what a class of intelectuals we have !.

With their such support to the lady, writing against 'Naqab or Burqa', they are denying the facts that this has been part of many other civilised culture and exists in other religions as well. What a shame ! We forget what we are teaching to our children, it seems we prefer our children to cross all the dignified moral values in front of us.

Taslima should be given Indian citizenship and in lieu of that Arundhati Roy, Kuldip Nayar, Imam Bukhari etc. seculars must be sent to Bangaladesh.

I support this. The world needs many more Taslimas to talk against the evil practices and fight against the fanatics.

Dear Sir,
For once I agree with Arundhati Roy . Taslima must be permitted to stay in this country.

Thanks

In the name of intellectual journalism, the signatories seem to invite trouble to the general public of the country. Why should Indians invite the wrath of Islamic countries, for the sake of this writer? Will the signatories guarantee that there will be no backlash? Intelligentia in India seem to have this uncanny ability to invite trouble. Indian government should disown any responsibility for the safety of Tasleem as well these mad people.

Let her stay in India. After all she is way far less damaging than people like Aruthati Roy. She is not in the way of economic developement of India. She is not working to delay hydroelectric power projects or against bringing business into the country.
She is definetly adding to the social discussion in the country.

Taslima's VISA must be extended. Since she has requested GOI for asylum, she should not only be given asylum but must be given Indian citizenship. It is high time we stop tolerating intolerance, bigotry, patriarchal values and backwardness under the garb of hurting feelings of fanatics from one religion or another.


Taslima, Parzania - where is India going? Why Gandhi's India embrasing Godse's values?

I support this appeal. India should take a firm position on freedom of writers and artists, and freedom from fatwas.

Taslima should be given Indian citizenship, immediately. Those who are protesting against her should be kicked out of the country, with their ideological weapons cinfiscated, the Madarasas and the Mosques closed permanently for the survival of the Hindu-Indic heritage

You can add my signature. Taslima has been very brave to speak out, and we must support her.

She should definitely be allowed to stay and say whatever she wants. As should everyone else in a democratic India...

Campaign for women's rights in Iran.


http://www.nytimes.com/...opinion/07observer.html

SABA ANSARII

Cross-dressing is very strictly forbidden in Islam, you say.

Is that so?

Why then to both men and women in Arabia and elsewhere in the Muslim world wear robes?

How about the Pakistani men who wear shalwar kamiz? I have seen them even here in Denver. Look at Imraan Khan !

Any comments, Ms Ansarii?

Parbat/Anil/Ramdas/Abdullah/Thomas.

Never miss even an iota of opportunity to say something bad about somebody! You are just pathetic.

Why are these heroes speaking up in this obscure place? Why can't they use megaphones in the street in Delhi, or speak at the magnificent Jwaharlal Nehru University or speak up in some widely-watched TV programme? Why this feeble whisper in a dark corner, when it is a quation of condemning Islamism for once in their islam-sycophantic lives?

How muted and feeble all these loud "secular" wallahs are when they absolutely have, for very shame, to support an anti-Islamist cause.....Thet couldn't have kept their dirty mouths shut this time without losing what atom of credibility they might have left, so they muttered some feeble half-hearted words of support for this decent cause.....

What creeps !

Islamic feminism: what's in a name?

Islamic feminism is on the whole more radical than Muslims' secular feminisms, argues Margot Badran.


http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2002/569/cu1.htm

On a lighter vein, I would like to remind that burqa acts as a good sunscreen in overheated deserts of middle east where Islam originated.Once it might have been a necessity.Even men in middle east cover themselves fully to prevent sunburn.

Dear Sir:
Why are you attacking Dr R.A. Mashelkar, the former DG CSIR, right after his retirement? Is there some sinister move in timing of the report or is there some larger conspiracy? Otherwise, you would not have dared to equate him with a discredited Union leader. Mashelkar has attained an iconic status as a scientist and science administrator. Unfortunately and quite mischievously, you have tried to destroy his image by your ill-timed and self-serving report, perhaps to sensationalize the charges of a union leader. In India, we have only a handful of heroes and most of them are film stars and cricketers. Indian science and technology needs heroes of Mashelkar’s stature and vision. In Science, you could count only a few revered heroes like him. He made the Indian scientists realize the value of IPR. One has to count the number of patents CSIR labs have filed during his tenure as Director General. He instilled confidence in them as knowledge creators and asked them to be measured by the best yardsticks. The 20,000 odd scientific workforce was too comfortable in doing mundane research; only a handful self-motivated had remained active. He brought discipline to the CSIR work force. Of course, in this process, he is bound to have created enemies. He had to deal with unions of all sorts; some of them with patronage from political parties. You cannot equate him with a Govt. babu, because he is a scientist first and bureaucrat next. Mashelkar’s several trips abroad, whether to deliver invited lectures or to represent India in world fora, could not have taken place, in the first place, without the Government’s explicit permission and knowledge. Do not forget that he cannot be equated with other bureaucrats. The secretaries of DST, DSIR and DBT have special status, and come from scientific communities. They are already well known for their scientific accomplishments. So receiving hospitality is very routine for all scientists of that stature and repute. Even if he gets any award money or honorarium, it has to be accounted, notwithstanding how frivolous or fat the amount may be. All payments of awards are made by cheque. Mashelkar’s only fault was that he did things sincerely and enthusiastically, traveled extensively across the length and breadth of India, promoting Indian science and was always in the public eye, at the cost of his personal comfort and sacrifices of his family. The innumerable awards he won for his science and leadership, from all quarters of society, and the honours bestowed upon him by Indian and foreign professional bodies are enviable. Even if RSS had felicitated him, along with other equally famous persons (President Kalam included), what was wrong in his accepting it? Like a civilized and apolitical person, he might have gone to accept the award, not anticipating that his detractors could use it against him. Why show that picture as he is some criminal? It is in a very poor taste. His rise to the apex position from an extremely poor family could not have been without his sticking to high moral values and principles, hard work and intelligence. It is a sad commentary that the Indian media really do not know how to revere our heroes and they seem to have a predicament with triumphant people. The pastime of the media, both print and electronic, is to dethrone the stars, may be due to jealousy or suspicion, after putting them on a podium themselves! Your article on him is tantamount to yellow journalism. I only hope that you retract the uncharitable article and tender an unconditional apology to him. It is not too late to do it.

Your letters column proves your stand on Muslims issues. As an editor you are aware that when any Hindu issue is discussed, Muslims never interfere in it. But what happens when any Muslim issue is discussed? It is this attitude which irritates the Muslims. Interference by any community in the affairs of any other community is to say the least unwanted. If we Indians refrain from this, it will be better.

Manzoor says,

>> "... it also underpins the orthodox elements to strengthen their grip over the community, by making it an issue of affront on Islam"

It is true that attacks on Islam do strengthen the hands of orthodox mullahs, and thus have an effect opposite to what the writer may have intended. Since Taslima has the right to write whatever she wants to write, and she has the right to have motives other than reform, it is up to the moderate reformers to devise innovative tactical methods to advance their cause without having such unintended consequences. The situation is such that any advancement of liberal ideas becomes an oppotunity for our rigid guardians to re-assert their regressive dogma. The path to reform, it would seem, is a minefield.

The concern in Taslema Nasreen's article ' Let's Burn the Burqa' (Jan. 22, 2007 Outlook) is appreciable. The core of her argument is suggestive that Muslim society should refurbish its fading traditional and regressive practices. However, the approach of the article is obnoxious and will be counter-productive. It means, the article will miss its intended objective and give one more opportunity to the rightwing forces to demonize the Muslims of this country. Moreover, it also underpins the orthodox elements to strengthen their grip over the community, by making it an issue of affront on Islam. Thus, any attempt to reform in the Muslim community must take the course of consensus and within the framework of Islam. In other words, the efforts for reform, in the language of culture they understand and the method they appreciate.
Next, for all the suffering of Muslim women, this article in its rhetorical flow puts sole blame on religion (Islam), which does not concur with serious scholarly understanding. Many scholars like John L. Esposito, G. Minault and others have argued that the status of women in Islam was profoundly affected not only by the fact that Islamic belief interacted with diverse cultures, but also, and of equal importance, that the interpreters of Islamic law and tradition has been men (religious scholars or Ulama) from these cultures. S.A.A. Maududi’s Purdah and Maulana A.A. Thanawi's Bahishti Zewar (Jewelry of Paradise) needs special mention here as they have played a vital role in shaping, humble, submissive to family, and religious image of Muslim women in Indian sub-continent. Besides these, there are other factors like lower socio-economic and education level of the community (in both men and women) and the communally charged social milieu, too can contribute to the subjugation of women. However, I wanted to ask question to Ms. Nasreen and the likes; are women free of religious obligations, free in true sense.
Thirdly, her blames of partiality in favour of men by Allah in reference to Surah Al-Nur 24:31, is a baseless and half-baked truth. Ms. Nasreen forgot to mention the Surah Al-Nur 24:30, which is addressing to men. It says, "Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty: that will make for greater purity for them: And God is well acquainted with all that they do". If we look at the two verses, one without other is imperfect. Thus, the rule of modesty applies to men as well as women. Without any discrimination, Islam gives permission to men and women both to go out according to the mentioned injunctions and restrictions.
However, mix-up of Islam with local cultures and other important factors have blunted its progressive ideology. For instance, Islam does not legitimize hierarchy within the Muslim community. But, here in India, Muslim social structure is vertically divided on caste lines. On the same vein, Muslim women are the victims of patriarchal social practices legitimized through the wrong interpretations of Quran, rather than the victims of Islam itself. Thus, fight should be directed against such practices within the framework of Islam, instead of 'burning burqas'. Further, Muslim women and men should fight together for the conditions, which stimulate the democratization of community.

Reading Taslima's article just shows how much she knows about Islam and the way she interprets it. I guess this is because she was not taught to interpret Islam the right way. She tells everyone about her father who subjugated her mother. It looks as if she had a very sad and terrorized childhood. If we look back at history we will find a number of such examples in every religion and country. This is the way cultures and religions evolve according to anthropologists. But, I have this very strong feeling that she did not read the Quran or even asked any women who have taken to purdah willingly. Taslima can make any statement on purdah and I am sure she will continue to do so irrespective of her culture or her background. It is good to read articles from a person who is exiled from her own country and now how she is trying to sway other people. Not just Islam, even the people who believe in it will benefit from this article as it will show them how wrong one can be when you do not follow a religion with it's deeper meaning and its tenets. She has even tried to quote the Quran with her own interpretation which may please or anger many. To those who are angry, remember Islam or any other religion will not be maligned by people of little or no understanding. For those who are pleased, remember everyone will be held accountable fro everytghing you say whether it is in this world or in hereafter life(if you believe in one!!!!) For me, I am trying hard to get to the deeper meaning because I don't think God would allow such equality as depicted by Talsima in her interpretation.

Ask a similar question to the R. S. S. types, who are also masters at wiping out. Or, perhaps, you do not need to as you are an R. S. S. type.

JOSEPH OF KARACHI
"Conversion of Muslims to Christianity fall under Apostacy "

Apostacy or conversion to Christianity and Judaism is also known as becoming 'Murtad' in Islam the punishment for which is death. Stop scuttling sideways all the time and face things as they are.

Secondly was the entire community mentiones in the editorial guilty of defaming the Prophet or his book and that is why they were wiped out. And if it was illegal what has the Puristani state done so far.

JOSEPH OF KARACHI
"Mr. Vikas Ranjan, I immediately corrected my self by saying that Pakistan is not as bad, repeat not as bad, as Indians believe it to be, which clarification you have conveniently ignored with all your deviousness in the Chanakyan mould."

Ever heard of Freud and Freudian Slips.Why bring Chanakya when you can explain it better with more modern and scientific concepts.

Mr. Vikas Ranjan, I immediately corrected my self by saying that Pakistan is not as bad, repeat not as bad, as Indians believe it to be, which clarification you have conveniently ignored with all your deviousness in the Chanakyan mould.

The Laws that you have cited Mr. Vikas Ranjan relate to Blasphemy and do not relate to conversions forced or other wise. Please do not try to be too smart, too snide and too sarcastic for your own good.

Blasphemy laws relate to the desecration of the Holy Quran or blasphemy of Prophet Muhammad, etc. Conversion of Muslims to Christianity fall under Apostacy and not blasphemy. Conversions are regularly taking place in Pakistan. These are either way. Although very, very few Muslims have converted, the bulk of the conversions are from the Tribals or Bheels of Sindh and the Sudras of upper Sindh and lower Punjab. Missionary work goes on. However, the trend is now in to Inter-Faith Dialogue.

Again, there was no need to be snide. Can we not have decent dialogues with Indians?.

MR.VIKAS RANJAN
If Chacha says no persecution of minorities then plese don't question.What my Chacha says is final !
This Daily is owned by some chap oh yes Nazam Sethi ...mmmm ...Sethis are Punjabi Hindus..
Margala Hills ,Faislabad can't be in Pak as Christians are SWARGWASI IN LAND OF PURE.
This is hate agenda of India against Pak..

JOSEPH OF KARACHI
1.Mr. Vikas Ranjan, you will be happy to know that there is no bar to Conversions in Pakistan.

2. Pakistan is as bad as ill-informed Indian's believe it to be.

About point no 1

http://dailytimes.com.p...5\story_25-1-2007_pg3_1



To quote from the editorial;
“Islamabad plans to reform its blasphemy law that Christian churches and human rights groups say the Muslim majority uses to oppress religious minorities
Hundreds of innocent people have been harassed and kept in jails and outrightly killed through vigilante action by religious fanatics. One Christian bishop actually committed suicide when an innocent Christian was convicted by a sessions judge of Faisalabad simply because he was pressured by fanatic mobs standing outside his court baying for blood. Another law, related to alleged desecration of the Quran, has been lumped together with blasphemy and exploited widely in Pakistan. After the infamous case of Shantinagar near Khanewal, in which an entire Christian community was wiped out, another case in Sangla Hill took place in 2006 when another Christian community was torched, on the watch of Mr Mushahid Hussain’s party.

So what are these 'LAWS' constitutionally illegal or illegaly constitutional, or some other Puristani interpretation of religious freedom.

About point no 2, could not agree more with you.

I agree with Taslima Nasrin's view. In fact, burkah, purdah or ghunghat, all are symbols of suppression and exploitation of women. These customs declare women to be object of enjoyment. Can we suppress the lust of men by using purdah or ghunghat? I think these customs increase their curiosity even more. What is not been done behind purdah or ghunghat in villages? Furthermore, these customs are unhygienic and harmful to health. However, who cares for the health of women. Today, when we are in 21st century women will have to tear up the bondage of burkah or ghunghat. Women have the same right to freedom as the men have. It is useless to talk of women-empowerment till they are in burkah or ghunghat. Today's women do not want to be called the second sex.
Jayshree Purwar,
President,
Kalyani Mahila Vikas Sansthan,
ORAI,U.P

Shahjan -first welcome to forum as another Pakistani.Regarding Burqua we are only talking in Indian context.But your vievs we will hear too.

In my opinion...
reading the article, and then again, I draw a conclusion. But only on my part. I don't really see why anyone should need to agree with me anyways. The feelings expressed are not just about this specific article. But it's all according to me for and I am just expressing it.

I've been hearing people whining about Purda for a long time now. I really don't see why people need to tell others what to do and what not to do. Specially since the Internet has become so MASSIVELY available. It's ok to let people know how you feel, yes. But what's with the imposing tones in the articles? Come on!

There was a time when religion was a community thing, and that's what Islam was all about. But now as most of the planet is connected 24/7, the community has become larger and has a lot of other religions in it as well. And the people who are learning more from this inter-religious community, want to adopt easier things from all of the other religions subconsciously. Because that's what humans do. We adopt, and then we produce more like us in due time.

So what I see now is that a bunch of retards (for the lack of a better word), telling other people that they don't wear a purda and the others should throw them away because 'they' thought it was unnecessary. You've got to be kidding me. Why do you guys NEED to impose things on others?

It's a behavior people put out when they feel guilty of doing something. Although they have the balls to do it, true. But they just can't stop the guilt because they know they're breaking laws. Now as kids, we've been told many a times that "breaking the laws is bad". And that's ingrained in us, in our minds.

So when people who are basically nobodys, "tell" other people what to do, they want partners to feel less guilty. Sharing the guilt. And then, when enough of us are sharing that guilt, it doesn't mean anything anymore.

People who are "somebodys", have a lot of better things to do.

But the real question still hangs, who are you to tell anyone?

THE VEIL UNVEILED
The laws of the veil in the Qur'an and in the Sunnah, the Hadiths, Traditions, are not the eternal wisdom of Allah or Muhammad. They are in fact merely the demands of Umar, one of Muhammad's most devoted followers. The proof is in the Hadiths and the Qur'an Commentary, Tafsir, of Ibn Kathir, online at altafsir.com

The Muslim women were forced to live in seclusion and wear a veil, another of Umar’s inspirations that became a revelation.
Umar had been asking Muhammad to impose the veil on them but he hadn’t done so. Aisha said, Umar bin Al-Khattab used to say to Allah's Apostle "Let your wives be veiled!" But he did not do so. He said this because he desired eagerly that the verses for the veiling of women may be revealed.
Umar said, ‘And as regards the verse of the veiling of the women, I said, 'O Allah's Apostle! I wish you ordered your wives to cover themselves from the men because good and bad ones talk to them.' But Allah's Messenger did not do that. Then Sauda, the wife of Allah's Messenger went out during one of the nights when it was dark. She was a tall large lady. Umar called her saying: ‘Sauda, we recognise you.’ He did this because he eagerly wanted a revelation for the veil.
So then the verse of the veiling of the women was revealed!
Bukhari: V1B4N148; V6B60N10-18, 438; V7B62N164; V8B74N257 Muslim: C7B26N5397

The Command of Hijab: Umar Inspires the Revelation
Qur’an 33:53 And when you ask (his wives) for anything, ask them from behind a screen. It is no sin on them before their fathers, or their sons, or their brothers, or their brother's sons, or the sons of their sisters, or their own women, or their (female) slaves.
Ibn Kathir says, ‘This is the verse of Hijab, the Veil, which includes several legislative rulings and points of etiquette. This is one of the cases where the revelation confirmed the opinion of Umar bin Al-Khattab. It was reported in the Two Sahihs that he said: ‘O Messenger of Allah, both righteous and immoral people enter upon you, so why not instruct the mothers of the believers to observe Hijab?' Then Allah revealed the verse of Hijab!''
Umar was given the gift of true inspiration which is the characteristic of Allah’s friends, named kashf or unveiling. The Prophet said, ‘In the nations long before you were people who were spoken to [by the angels] although they were not prophets. If there is anyone of them in my Community, truly it is Umar ibn al-Khattab. Allah has engraved truth on the tongue of Umar and his heart. If there were a Prophet after me truly it would be Umar.’

Qur’an 33.32 O wives of the Prophet! You are not like any other women. And stay in your houses, and do not Tabarruj yourselves like the Tabarruj of the time of ignorance!
The Tabarruj of the time of ignorance is when women go out of their homes and walk in front of men, or walk in a flirtatious way, or they dress in a revealing way.
Ibn Abbas and Ibn Kathir say, ‘This verse was revealed only about the wives of the Prophet. So they alone were the reason for revelation.’

Qur’an 33:59 O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to put their Jalabib, cloaks, over their bodies. That will be better that they should be known so as not to be annoyed.
Ibn Kathir says: Here Allah tells His Messenger to command the believing women to draw their Jilbabs, cloaks over their bodies so that they will be distinct in their appearance from the non-Muslim women and from slave women.
Ibn Abbas said that Allah commanded the believing women when they went out of their houses for some need to cover their faces from above their heads with the Jilbab, leaving only one eye showing.

This dialogue sucks! Nothing constructive emerges. All rules of reasoned debate are flouted. Guerilla tactics, dirty tricks and so on are used. Smugness characterizes some voices and hate others. Mere ungentlemanly jousting.
But seriously since so much is at stake atleast civilized discussions should not drop to the lows I see here.
More than a half-century of modern India and the name-calling and abuse of the “other “ is higher pitched than ever.
As any minority will empathise, calling negative attention to the shortcomings of a group strangely does not help remove them. It makes groups and individuals more defensive and xenophobic. Calling Muslims, names wont help.
Instead, what the reformists, Raja Ram Mohan Roy, Parmahans and Gandhi and our constitutional fathers did was to preach and codify change for all ills perceived and conceived. The result was greater freedom for all.
Enlightened government must do the same without colouring the situation saffron or anti- anybody.
I do not see a way different from this. Some uniform codes regarding certain personal things.
To keep up with the times.
Cool, impassioned steps meant to increase the well-being of all!

The discussion has to be without reference to religion and faith. Secular I mean!
Now which party in Inida fits the bill?
Does not exist!
As for the burqua that started this dialogue, seriously I dont know too many ladies who don it..and that must say something about the garment or me!
And about the passion the garment generates...like a red rag to so many.
If you dont like the burqua then do not marry or employ or consult or do business with one.
Those who like it will do the opposite. And market forces will decide the winners.
Guys chill! Seriously.

Now let us see what the latest simian tantrum is all about…

“do not confuse issues by raising extraneous counter-questions… would like three clear cut answers… No wiggling…”

You want fries with that order Joey Chacha….yeah right!!!

So, after your habitual lying and obfuscation on forced conversions was caught out - you resort to oldest trick in the book – asking “why do you beat your wife” questions. How subtle?

Good try – hope you did you not have to get help on this little piece of work from your neighborhood gay LeT mullah though, did you.

I’ve to admit – that misdirection from you was almost as subtle as using Zakir Naik to defend the liberal nature’s conversion laws in Pakistan – ever heard of the creep’s views on apostasy… www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdJnFsKfcoE
Seems like your source to support the notion of “unencumbered conversions” like to think of apostasy as a crime punishable by death…typical Paki tainted “evidence”.

“I am providing you the choice”
So it looks like you want us Indians to answer all kinds of questions, in stead of you Pakis performing the simple act of stopping the killing of women and children here in India. Sometimes, it is some 2.5% question, sometimes it’s the sex-tourism question and a host of other well-supplied questions. Buwe Bad Indians don seem to anser your questions, do we.

Sure – we’ll answer them. But you do something first:

Going by the MSK case in Australia, we know that you Pakis will end up using “cultural traditions” as an excuse for gang rape and of course you Pakis claim to be misunderstood, when you rape women who “deserve to be raped [according your spwan]”, since on the streets of Aus/US they had the audacity not to wear hijab. So, here's something you can do - in stead of taking the chance of hurting some little girls somewhere, and risking further damage to women in the US, register your Pak spawn and other relevant family with
http://www.state.nj.us/...info/reg_sexoffend.html
- go ahead and do that, and let us know when you do that, we Indians will answer all your little questions – oK. You can choose to neuter them too, if you’d like.

C’mon Paki don’t delay – quickly register our spawn or neuter. So, Pak boy – I’m also “providing you a choice”….huh!

“character assassination” – you’re a Paki for crying out loud – what hypothetical character are we talking about here – how’s it even possible to assassinate your character.

Try again...

In other words, LBMN, I am providing you the choice to answer three questions that you are best prepared to answer, and also the option to visit here:

http://search.yahoo.com...al%20Riots%20In%20India


and here

http://search.yahoo.com...20Riots%20In%20Pakistan

If a genuine mistake of mistaking you for Mr. Vikas Ranjan or vice versa, LBMN, is purported to be trickery, you have arguably the dirtiest trickiest mind in all of India. Answer my questions. Please do not confuse issues by raising extraneous counter-questions.

I am asking you five clear cut questions and would like three clear cut answers. No wiggling or squigling . No character assasination. No denigration. No lies and deceit.

Question 1. Why do Muslim's get just one-fifth of their due share?.

Question 2. What are forced Re-conversions?.

Question 3. How much does Sex-Tourism contribute to India's GNP?.

Question 4. What is the need to hide behind preudonyms, aliases and false locations?.

Question 5. Is it because your friends, relatives and acquaintences will be embarrased by your warped, sick,views and foul temper?.

“Please do not shift the goalosts, LBMN. You asked me about a Constitutional Bar and I told you that there was none.”

I actually did NOT ask you about any constitutional bar – Mr Ranjan did. But, I do understand, that this little trickery will allow you to deflect the discussion on the practice of “forced nikaah” in Pakistan. But, nice try.

“you stoop down into specefics… comment upon what are 'Mass Re-conversions”
Translation:
Let us not focus on forced nikaah and the gentle Pakistani habit of kidnap-rape-and-force-conversions, but let us throw something out there that has nothing to do with Pakistani norm of forced coversions to obfuscate and lie about the issue. And in any case, how dare someone force a lying Pakistani to get down to specifics….

Please do not shift the goalosts, LBMN. You asked me about a Constitutional Bar and I told you that there was none.

Not being able to digest because it went against your percieved vision, you stoop down into specefics. I do not intend to do so as there is much that is bad in the Religious sphere in both countries.

Kindly, however, comment upon what are 'Mass Re-conversions?. Is that or is that not coercion?.

Thank you.

I*nstead of slamming me, Mr. K. K. Lol, please educate me where I am wrong. In general parlance CAL stands for Calcutta now Kolkata and in a few case Calicut now Khozikode. I am sorry about the misunderstanding but pray tell me where do you really belong?.

As for not knowing about Islam, I will not tell you about how much I know or do not know but suffice it to say that I have attended Course at the International Islamic University, Islamabad as a part of my erstwhile job requirement.

At the basic level Islam has Five Tenets or Pillars, and one of them states that Muhammad is Allah's Messenger. It would be 'blasphemous' of a Muslim to say that he believed in anything or body other than Allah. In the Naats, Muhammad has been raised to almost the ultimate but Muslims make it quite clear that they do not ascribe 'Divinity' to him as Christians do to the Christ. He is deemed to be 'The Perfect Human Being'.

Mr. Raj Bodepudi, the Pakistani Muslims you meet are far more sophisticated and urbane than the average Indian Muslim, and, I dare say, 99 per cent of the Indians you are likely to socialise with. This is because Pakistan is more 'elitist' than India. This may not be a good thing but it is, nevertheless, a fact.

Let me tell you that Indian's have a far more warped impression about Pakistan than vice versa. This is because till only recently India was a terribly closed society. The pendulum may have swung the other way but it still has not touched 750 million people.

Thank you for your kind invitation. We usually travel to the U. S. A. and Canada in July each year. If and when I do visit my daughter-in-law's Mamu, Dr. Christopher Dean from Valpraiso, I shall make it a point to visit you.

Take care.

Sorry. Please read as... Pakistan is not as bad..... My afternoon siesta beckons. Cheers.

"there is no bar to Conversions in Pakistan."

Translation:

More appropriately there seems to be NO bar to FORCED conversions either in Pakistan, as in:

"Forced conversions figures reach between 500 to 600 people a year in Pakistan, although "national media report only 100 such cases" that police and the courts "treat prejudicially". This was the most significant conclusion of a meeting on Forced Conversion of Women and Minorities Rights in Pakistan..."

"In several cases, where girls were said to have eloped with their Muslim lovers, subsequent investigations revealed that most were abducted, forcibly married to Muslim men or sold to them...."

"Outrage at the death of a Catholic boy forced to convert to Islam at the hands of torturous abductors has prompted the Pakistan Catholic Bishop's Commission of Justice and Peace, to take up the legal case. The Christian youth died of injuries inflicted by a teacher and students at an Islamic school..."

Mr. Vikas Ranjan, you will be happy to know that there is no bar to Conversions in Pakistan. The Christian Churches here have missionaries from at least 16 countries if not more including Spain and Sri Lanka. Conversions do take place from the Tribal Hindus and some Muslims as well.

Recently in an interview on a Pakistani Television Channel, Mr. Zakir Naik of the IRF, Mumbai conceded that Muslims were becoming Christians in Pakistan, India and some parts of Sub-Saharan Africa and although for a Muslim this was a cause for disappointment, there was satisfaction to be derived from the fact that the numbers entering Islam were far greater than the numbers exiting it.

Yes, I know of at least two Muslims in my acquaintance who have become Christians in Pakistan and are living unfettered lives.

If one takes a holistic view of life and has a strong understanding that life is a two-way street such issues that are raised in this Forum will be seen in a less narrow perspective.

Pakistan is as bad as ill-informed Indian's believe it to be.

One is quite familiar, Mr. Raj Bodepudi, with the violent history of the Christian Church and Islam. However, would being unfair in suggesting that such behaviour is a black spot or a major blot on the teachings and guidance these two Religions provide in matters spiritual and temporal.

For better or for worse, Religions will stay. They may reform, evolve and change to smoothen out some of their unwanted edges in today's context but they will be there for time immemorial. Communism was a modern day Religion but it died away. On the other hand Hinduis is, perhaps, more than 6,000 years old with its warts and all.

Relidion whether one likes it or not is here to stay. It may be as Marx once observed the opiate of the poor but the poor is at least 50 per cent of us.

Chaitanya,

>> "can you tell us the difference between..."

"Unless proven to be beneficial to all" is a tall order, never heard of before, and invented by our deceitful propagandist.

JOSEPH OF KARACHI
"I have no problem with Yousuf Youhana becoming Muhammad Yousuf. Life is a two-way street. If only Indians understood that, South Asia would be a far better Region."

Would you please give me the reference to the article in the Puristani Constitution or LFO or whatever it is called, giving the right to the missionaries to preach and convert in Puristan.
And do tell me what are the rewards for turning 'murtad' as given in the Hadees.

JOSEPH OF KARACHI
"I have no problem with Yousuf Youhana becoming Muhammad Yousuf. Life is a two-way street. If only Indians understood that, South Asia would be a far better Region."

A two way street would also involve a Muhamad Yousuf becoming a Yousuf Yohanna, some one in Kashmir did and got promptly bumped off, another gentleman in Afghanistan tried the two way street and is now running for dear life.

Muslims rioting in bangalore after friday sermons.
Is there anything new!
Yesterday was friday ,take note of it.

JOSEPH the hypocrite,
>>"Muslims believe in Allah and not in Muhammad"
Do you know what is sahada in Islam?

You claim to be a journalist on socio-economic issues.
religion plays a huge role Pakistani society.
Here you display your ignorance about the
basic tenets of Islam.
You are not fit to be a journalist.
In your entire career did you dared to write anything negative
about ISlam?
You have no problem harping about the ills of Hinduism
did you do the same about Islam?
I guess you were afraid that your head would be chopped off
if you did so.
What a hypocrite!

More over how did you know I live in kolkata?
I have never said that I'm from kolkata.
You assumed that I live in kolkata and called
me hypocrite based on your assumption.
I wonder if you did the same thing your whole
life as a journalist.
what a shame!
you calling yourself a journalist.

correction in my earlier post.

read mobs for "bombs"

"The Hindu did not use the word - Muslim - in that article posted by Shankar."

How can they ? They are "secular" and "liberal"..beside they also value their lives..Both the Indian Express and Deccan Herald in Bangalore have apologised to muslims in Bangalore recently for hurting their sentiments, after muslim bombs attacked their offices.

Ofcourse if it was a Hindu mob , then "chaddi" , "sanghi" , "saffron mobs" would have been fare game..after all a Hindu has no sentiments which can be hurt.wonder why I never hear the word "green mobs" in this case ?

The believers have the first claim on Arson in the new year as well..

" The police said the trouble erupted when a group of people marching towards Shivajinagar Stadium from K.G. Halli to attend a rally organised by the newly formed People's Front to protest the execution of Saddam Hussein and "U.S. imperialism." The processionists set on fire some banners on Seppings Road in Bharatinagar.

A group of people took objection to this which led to a clash. Those who were part of the procession started attacking houses, vehicles and shops with stones, the police said. The mob started burning vehicles parked on the road and throwing stones on Thimmaiah Road. Arsonists barged into a web-designing centre, damaged computers and set them on fire. The mob barged into several houses and shops, ransacked them and looted valuables. "


http://www.hindu.com/20...es/2007012014930100.htm


Why are you "seculars" and "liberals" supporting such arsonand loot by believers? What has a resident of bangalore got to do with hanging of saddam ? Why dont you muslims go to Iraq and fight americans if you are hurt ? Please Get out of India and allow others to lead theri lifes peacefully.

"
Violence broke out when demonstrators tried to force Hindu shopkeepers to close their shops in the communally sensitive area of Shivajinagar in the centre of the city."

http://today.reuters.co...Loc=World-R5-Alertnet-3


And 2 interesting points..1.The meet was organised By Congress Leaders and most of the speakers were also from congress. 2. A big cut out of George Bush was dispalyed at the entrance of meeting and evry one was supposed to spit at it before entering.( as per Bangalore print edition of Indian express )

Not even half a muslim protested in bangalore against recent mumbai train bombings btw.

Bodepudi,

Buddha: " Do not be hasty to believe a thing even if everyone repeats it, or even if it is written in holy scripture or spoken by a teacher revered by the people. Accept only those things which accord with your own reason, things which the wise and virtuous support, things which in practice bring benefit and happiness-"

So when you "paraphrased" this to, "unless proven to be beneficial to one self, AND ALL others", you were lying, were you not? It is the hate inside of you that makes you a liar.

The Buddha on "BELIEF"

The Kalamans to the Buddha: "Can you tell us whom we should believe and whom we should not"?

Buddha: " Do not be hasty to believe a thing even if everyone repeats it, or even if it is written in holy scripture or spoken by a teacher revered by the people. Accept only those things which accord with your own reason, things which the wise and virtuous support, things which in practice bring benefit and happiness-"

This Sutra was spoken, over 2,550 years ago!

Quoted from "Old Path White Clouds" By Thich Nhat Hanh, PP 420

Dear Joe:

When you are visiting the US, please visit us in Chicago. I will introduce you to Pakistani friends who had a massive meeting denouncing the Islamic terror against Christians in Pakistan. We had a similar, even bigger one, denouncing the Modi Govt in 2002. You will be surprised to meet many Pskistani Moslem friends far less bigoted than ones from India, for some mysterious reasons.

Bodepudi says,

>> because they were COMMANDED to do so-"Kill the Infidels"
>> The FAITHFUL are implanted with receivers in their brains to kill through the remote-to fly the planes as missiles

This guy has no understanding of either history or religion. He is a loose canon in our cyberspace.

Bodepudi,

>> then this belief is INTRINSICALLY deadly

Bigots like you are the most deadly creatures in forums like this, using free cyberspace to spread your hate and ignorance.

Bodepudi says,

>> don't spend rest of your life defending the Terrorists and their hideous ideology.

I condemn the terrorists and I also condemn stupid hate mongers like yourself.

"One does not denigrate a Religion because of the deviant behaviour of some adherents" Joseph

This is non-sense, dear Joe. Fanatics slaughtered millions of Hindus and Buddhists because they were COMMANDED to do so-"Kill the Infidels". Precisely because they were GUARANTEED to go directly to HEAVEN, without the tedious court proceedings on the Judgement Day! And, virgins to boot!

The FAITHFUL are implanted with receivers in their brains to kill through the remote-to fly the planes as missiles, to use human bodies as killing fields-on and on.

Please tell me, dear Joe, about the Sermon on the Mount, for a change. Let's throw positive light on early Christians.

If somehow we forgot the entire history and evidence of the existence of ALL religions, do we miss any of them? Where do we start from, today?

I'm not sure if in the 40 odd posts this has been touched upon, but here'e my two paise.
Usually, I find myself cheering for Tasleema, but I think there's another angle to this: what if a woman *wants* to wear a burqa/hijaab/headscarf? Why is a woman's attire and sexuality-or rather the heterosexual man's verison of it-ultimately anybody's business but hers?
Tariq Ali's 'Clash of Fundamentalisms' talks about how the veil became fashionable in Egypt and (ironically) freed women to basically 'pick up' guys in bars without being recognized!
I can't be sure, but I think I'd oppose any dictates on a person's choice to dress how they want: especially legislative dictates.

If you are faithful that you will be rewarded with heavenly virgins and deligghts by killing the Infidels-and by flying planes into crowded buildings, then this belief is INTRINSICALLY deadly. How could such a Faith and Belief system endure for over a millennium, unscrutinized by evidence and unchallenged by reason?

This is where the secular fanatics had failed the entire world in not confronting this faith and dogma centric ideology, until today. Were it not for this unfolding monumental tragedy, Chomskys and Rays would have been laughed at as merely clowns in a circus.

"called you stupid, not Buddha. You are too idiotic to paraphrase Buddha, let alone understand him." Ghulam

Direct from Qur'anic DNA-Physical and verbal terror, out of primordial ignorance. Please quote the entire Kalam Sutra in its entiretyy and please rephrase it better, if you are for a genuine debate. Focus on the issue, not on persons, dear Ghulam. Please don't spend rest of your life defending the Terrorists and their hideous ideology

Bodepudi,

>> These clever one liners are coming from the Qur'anic study and, hence, from DEEP IGNORANCE.

That shows both your ignorance and your insolence.

>> The point is such FAITH must be discarded.

You can discard any faith that you want. But to speak that way about other people's faith shows your dastardliness and your imbicility.

>> if FAITH leads to such terror, we need to investigate the validity of that Faith itself.

Go and investigate Osama bin Laden's fasith. That is not my faith. But an idiot like you will not understand that.

>> You are so kind in calling Him stupid

I called you stupid, not Buddha. You are too idiotic to paraphrase Buddha, let alone understand him.

"If there was evidence, we would not call it faith." Ghulam

These clever one liners are coming from the Qur'anic study and, hence, from DEEP IGNORANCE. The point is such FAITH must be discarded.Many Moslems are convinced that God is the designer of women's clothing and there followed the rioting in Nigeria in 2002 Miss World Pageant that killed over 200 lives. Paramedics in Mecca refused helping teenage girls trapped in a burning building because they wee not wearing head covering? 14 dead and many wounded.

9/11? Based not on economics or politics but on the FAITH of Martyrdom? One crazy person now can kill millions of innocents.

In other words, if FAITH leads to such terror, we need to investigate the validity of that Faith itself. Reason alone brings conviction and correctness to Faith, making it closer to th world of REALITY.



>> "unless proven to be beneficial to one self, AND ALL others"-Raj

"I never heard anything more stupid." Ghulam

I have paraphrased what the Buddha told the Kalamans, 2,550 year ago. You are so kind in calling Him stupid, while your ancestrors killed millions of Buddhists ONLY because they were "Infidels", based on Quran.

Grow up, dear Ghulam

I am sorry to say that it is you who is making a huge ass of himself. Muslims believe in Allah and not in Muhammad.

Read Kolkata or Calcutta

Being an atheist and a Hindu at the same time is a bit disengenous. Will other Hindus help me understand this.

By the way, Mr. K. K. Lol, how do I become a hypocrite?. I always thought that hypocrisy is like calling Calcutta, Cal or Calcutta.

I have no problem with that. In my extended family covering four continents and 10 countries, we have Muslims and Hindus. Some have converted. Others have not.

I have no problem with Yousuf Youhana becoming Muhammad Yousuf. Life is a two-way street. If only Indians understood that, South Asia would be a far better Region.

That is a fact, Mr. K. K. Lol, and are black spots on these two Religions. One does not denigrate a Religion because of the deviant behaviour of some adherents.

I do not deny these things unlike Indians about India and Hindus about Hinduism

YOU KNOW SOMETHING, mR. pARBAT LALDENG, i GET A FAR GREATER BELLY LAUGH FROM THE FACT THAT YOU NRI TYPES SING PAENS TO INDIA ESCONSED IN THE DEVELOPED WORLD VISITING ONLY RELUCTANTLY FOR WEDDINGS AND FUNERALS.

VISIT MUMBAI AND STAY IN DHOBI TALAO FOR A WEEK AND THEN TALK ABOUT BEING A WIMP, A DUFFER OR A TWERP.

YOU GUYS ARE DOWNRIGHT HYPOCRITES. GET A BELLY LAUGH ON THAT ONE AND TELL ME. AND NO FOUL LANGUAGE IN REACTION.

Joseph:

Consider. Reflect. Use a borrowed brain as you lack one.

But don;t stop your priceless oubursts. I get a belly laugh from each one.

How come you Pereiras from Pakistan denounce Pakistan when abroad? The ISI might be interested in that.

Joseph:

Consider. Reflect. Use a borrowed brain as you lack one.

But don;t stop your priceless oubursts. I get a belly laugh from each one.

How come you Pereiras from Pakistan denounce Pakistan when abroad? The ISI might be interested in that.

>>"one of the basic tenets of Christianity and Islam which is Missionary Work."

like the kind of missionary work Islamic Invasion did in india
or the kind Christians did to the aztecs and mayans.

Jamaal,
>>"If going by your logic of what is true of one, is true of all, after Nithri incident all hindus should be considered as pedophiles,killers and cannibals, (which is not true), Right!"

how many Hindus says what happened in Nithari is perfect and should be followed by every Hindu?
now consider how many muslims think Muhammed was
a role model and all muslims should follow his actions.

JOSEPH the hypocrite,
>>"You may dispute the methodology but you can not challenge the right to convert."

have you voiced your concern for the muslims right
to convert?

JOSEPH the hypocrite,
You just expose your ignorance about Hinduism.
Hinduism does not force you to believe in any God
or gods unlike Islam or Christianity.
I have said it before and let me repeat ,
you can be a athiest and still be a Hindu.
(google "Charvaka and Hinduism" to know more)

The definition of religion that you have is from
the western/Christian perspective where you have to believe in some God to be a member of that religion.
Therefore to be a Christian you have to believe
in Jesus/Holy trinity or to be a muslim you have to believe in Muhammed/Allah.
You cease to be a Christian the moment you stop
believing in Jesus ,same thing with the muslims.
You are no longer a muslim once you stop believing
in Muhammed.
Hinduism does not suffers from such restrictions.
You are trying to apply the same definition with respect to Hinduism.
In the process you are making an ass out of yorself.

Nandu :
"what ever krishna might have done, he might have sex with 16,000 women or had sex with all gopis in gokul, nothing matches rape of 9 year old child."

Lets see what Krishna has done. He spoke Bhagavad Gita on one hand and had amorous relations with another man's wife on the other. While Muhammads marriage with a kid may be morally acceptable in those circumstances Krishnas behaviour was wrong even in those days and by those morality.

>> "When folks in these columns take so much hurt and offence for statements made that are divergent from theirs"

Or rather "statements that are beyond the pale"

>> "Some, like Ghulam, are our dear brothers, but deeply confused"

Or rather, trying to knock some sense in your head.

Bindu:

When folks in these columns take so much hurt and offence for statements made that are divergent from theirs, why is so difficult to imagine the horrific slaugher wrought on millions of innocent Hindus-Buddhists-Parsees_Jews, et al., based on the Qur'anic commandment to "Kill the Indidels"? Christian fanatics did precisely that, few centuries ago.

This is where Nehru, Gandhi, Chomsky, Roy and others dangerously misled us WITHOUT frontally confronting the DANGEROUS FAITH-BASED terror.
That one could attain martyrdom by killing maximum number on innocents is simply UNACEPTABLE and if it's faith-based-that Faith has to be pushed out of India, lock, stock and barrel, any such faith, by force.

Some, like Ghulam, are our dear brothers, but deeply confused. He and others should be OPENLY writing letters to Mullahs and Moulvis for closing ALL Madarasas and Mosques in India-since they are breeding faith-based terror, unending. It will go on with far worse consequences than we had seen, until the Qur'anic Constitution itself is debated and permanently amended.

Human beings are ONE-there are no Fidels and In-Fidels-all are suffering in the prison of ignorance. We ALL are prisoners WE can never be free until ALL are on the PATH to FREEDOM.

>> "FAITH with no evidence"

If there was evidence, we would not call it faith.

>> "unless proven to be beneficial to one self, AND ALL others"

I never heard anything more stupid.

So lets just dump her bangla ass in bangladesh and let the bangla bandhus decide what they want o do with her.


u got that right mate... adn that goes double for all the other "illegal" bangladeshi migrants in northeast, bengal, bihar and the rest of india..

Bodepudi,

>> Osama Bin Laden OPENLY wants to impose on India-the Sharia Law. Focus on what Al Queda and in fact the Qur'anic faith had done

You equate Osama bin Laden with Islam, and then you consider yourself capable of having a meaningful dialogue!!! You are nothing more than a comic figure. Stop taking yourself so seriously.

lol and others...

dont you make the mistake of asking jojo boyo for data... he has time and again demonstrated his expertise at pulling data out of his posterior.
i am tired of his crap.. please do us all a fvaor and ignore this nincompoop called joe from karachi. bloody spammer..

"What morality are we talking here"

The morality of reason and of genuine doubt. Not to accept anything said or written, based on FAITH with no evidence, unless proven to be beneficial to one self, AND ALL others

"such as reducing Muslim population to 1947 percentages, which in fact border on a Hitlerian kind of "solution". Will your senseless tirades ever end"

These are most thought out ONLY solutions for peace. Islamic PRACTICE was and is based on FAITH with no reason and room for doubt and NO EVIDENCE . That's what Osama Bin Laden OPENLY wants to impose on India-the Sharia Law. Focus on what Al Queda and in fact the Qur'anic faith had done and is doing rather than diverting attention with one-liners, betraying both dangerous ignorance and instantaneously verifiable bigotry.

Nehru, Chomsky and Roy and other secular fanatics were and are responsible for this "rise" of FAITH with no EVIDENCE and should take most blanme for this unending Islamic terror. Had they confronted religious fanaticism based on FALSEHOOD and DOGMA head on, we would have practically none who might yet believe they are going straight to Heaven "with those dark-eyed virgins" by making themselves into bombs. The blatant and dangerous falsehood of the the Bible, Qur'an and the Vedas need to be debated and confronted before we are done away with, long before global warming turns the globe into cosmic ash.

>> "I talk about lot of things in a progressive way and justify them"

Good for you! I shall look out for such posts.

To find out the numbers leaving Hinduism as against those entering it, you may seek your answer from Mr. Bal Thackeray. He and his party and the R. S. S. were making a great hue and cry about this which impelled them to attempt 'mass re-conversions' and consider initiating laws to curb conversions. My information about India is taken from Indian sources. This can only mean that either you are misinformed or the Indian Media is?.

Mr. K. K. Lol, does it mean that being a Hindu allows one to believe what one chooses and discards what one finds inconvenient or unsuitable?.

I am flumoxxed. Lord Krishna is being discarded just because his cavorting with Gopis is uncomfortable to explain.

Then one will expect that from Mr. K. K. Lol ashe comes first even when it comes to calling Kolkata cal or Calcutta.

Mr. K. K. Lol, does it mean that being a Hindu allows one to believe what one chooses and discards what one finds inconvenient or unsuitable?.

I am flumoxxed. Lord Krishna is being discarded just because his cavorting with Gopis is uncomfortable to explain.

Then one will expect that from Mr. K. K. Lol ashe comes first even when it comes to calling Kolkata cal or Calcutta.

As a follower of a Religion that does not proselytise or encourage conversions-in, it is difficult for you to understand or appreciate, one of the basic tenets of Christianity and Islam which is Missionary Work.

You may dispute the methodology but you can not challenge the right to convert.

Wishful thinking is the predominate sentiment in this Forum. India is a giant in terms of its size and population, yet its attitude toward its neighbours emanates from a pea-sized brain. The Hindu participants in this Forum are obsessed with Islam, Muslims, Pakistan and the basic sentiment is to wish that they all, somehow, just disappear. That is wishful thinking.

Then pages have been wasted on the Burqa with no useful purpose but to vent spleen against Islam.

When a non-Hindu talks about the other side of the picture, he or she is accused of being a twit, twerp, bigotted, liar and what have you.

One wonders whether schools and colleges in India have forgotten the moral side of being. Yes, one wonders.

"If our tribalism is ever to give away to an extended moral identity, our religious beliefs can no longer be sheltered from the tides of genuine enquiry and genuine criticism"--- Sam Harris in "End of Faith""

Genuine enquiry and genuine criticism are good, especially if carried out by commentators and critics from within the same religion, or by writers from other religions reputed for their spirit of objective enquiry. In this forum however, with its high levels of mutual hatred and recrimination, almost all of the "criticism" edduced is of the mud-slinging variety and of the middle-school boy level. It generates great heat but no light. I do however agree absolutely with the concept of "an extended moral identity". God willing, someday!

Nandu,

>> the greeks or the hindus have changed their ways or atleast trying change to suit 2007. the muslims want to go back 1500 years.

All power to the Greeks and the Hindus! My problem is not with the Hindus, but with the Nandus, who want to take back their level of dialogue to middle-school kid level.

Nandu,

>> i got my answer. if you still think having sex with a 9 year old child just a petty thing, no further questions.

Seems you lie and misrepresent by force of habit. I did not say sex with a child is "petty". I said your mind is petty.

Ref 1: Raj Bodepudi : If our tribalism is ever to give away to an extended moral identity, our religious beliefs can no longer be sheltered from the tides of genuine enquiry genuine criticism"--- Sam Harris in "End of Faith"

Raj, Absolutely! How can anybody believe that religious or so called religious dictates abt loving and living are absolutely foolish. We should take on board the morality of perfect living as an ideal rather than try to force irregular lives into perfect holy roles.
To this end the world has drafted reasonable laws regarding personal laws..and yes there are gross aberrations but the laid norm as in marriageable age or equality at work place or punishment for murder keep the framework and the rule of law going.
If we can examine Baby Bush going to war or Clinton with Lewinsky in the Whitehouse against laid norms and find them guilty why should religious dictates be exempt from enquiry?

Suddenly, out of the blue ms nasrin writes this article. how come she suddenly discovered her love for muslim women. is she again following the time-tested method of bashing islam and muslims and gaining cheap publicity. it seems that another of her miserable books is about to be published and she is desperate for publicity and outlook has provided that platform, which she needed. i would like to ask the editor as to what was the sudden need for such an article.
It seems that the exiled author has taken passages out of quran and hadiths without the relevant references, just to suit her convenience and to settle her personal scores.

Forget about the past , let us look at the world view of the Muslim expatriates


http://dailytimes.com.p...9\story_19-1-2007_pg3_1


To quote some pertinent points
"Canada, like the United Kingdom, has suffered at the hands of Muslim imams or leaders of prayers in its mosques. Some time ago, some Canadian reporters secretly visited 15 of nearly 50 mosques in the Greater Toronto Area, to hear one cleric say, ‘Everyone must do what they can to help their brothers fight the struggle against infidels’. At one mosque the namazis called for a khilafat in Canada with an army ‘to rid the world of infidels once and for all’. The mosque imams warned their worshippers to stay away from western institutions. One said, ‘Evil Western values and haram (sin) surrounds Muslim children in Toronto’. All of them asked the followers to work towards converting Canada into an Islamic state rather than accept its secular values."

Similar sentiments were expressed by a Mullah in Australia as quoted in the Time of India today. Mind you the gentleman from Australia was born there and was not raised in the bondooks of some tribal society. It would appear no matter where you come from and no matter what the infidel has done for you ( asylum, equal rights), elimination of the infidel is still top priority.

TANVEER SAIYED,
what ever you wrote about 'meher' is true for dowry
system as well.
Why criticize dowry system and not the so called 'meher'?

JOSEPH mian,
Do you have any data to show that 'more Hindus are becoming Christians or Muslims than vice versa'?
You worry about the hell hole called Pakistan where you people have almost eliminated all the Hindus and Christians .
pot calling the kettle black.any one??

To be a Hindu I don't have to believe in Krishna
or whatever .so I don't think about what Krishna did nor i have to justify it.

You hypocrite should be the last person talking about caste system.You don't have the guts to oppose death penalty for apostasy in Islam .
Should a person not be free to choose one's religion?

KK,

Please re-read the content of earlier response. Do not let your hatred cloud your faculties. Just in case your bout of dimming faculties continues, "meher" may be paid upfront (meaning at the time of marriage) or it could be deferred, if mutually agreed by the parties concerned. The time of payment of the agreed sum does not alter its essence.

Let us not stoke further fires, Mr. K. K. Lol by bringing up over and over again the marriages of Muhammad, lest you are asked to justify the behaviour of Krishna. Can we not remain within the realm of the philosophical content of Krishna's and Muhammad's Teachings rather getting into the petty matter of their personal behaviour?.

When one believes, Mr. Raj Bodepudi irrespective of obvious contradictions and errors that is called Faith.

Faith will never end for that with hope and charity is what allows us to survive.

The irony, Mr. K. IK. Lol, is that because of the demeaning nature of caste more Hindus are becoming Christians or Muslims than vice versa. If Hinduism and Hindus are to be at peace with themselves and others in the multi-polar society that is India, they must first correct the anamolies and faults within themselves before pinpointing and then highlighting the faults in other Religions and their adherents.

What is that adage about a physician healing himself or herself?. And the other one about a pot calling the kettle black?.

Bodepudi:
"1. Is Qur'an a true guide for peaceful existence with the "infidels"?

2. Why are there so many contradictions if it is a word (words) of God? Or even close?
"

Belief is a personal choice. You cant dictate how another person's religion should look like. Krishnas adultery has not encouraged adultery among Hindus. And dont even get me started on contradictions in Hinduism.

Bodepudi:
"Why should youth be misled into believing in a fictional martyrdom when in fact they will be creating hellish realms for themselves and their community?"

Ok go and educate them then. WHy pull up a Ghulam or a some syed eaking out his living in a peaceful way?

"When would the Islamic scholars and Mullahs write and openly atone for their genocidal history in India? Could there be lasting peace, if based on lies and cover-up of history? Could Germans ever make peace with the Jews by denying Holocaust?"

Valid point. I think Muslims have too much of love for themselves. They have such a romantic view of themselves that it is hard for them to comprehend that they can be viewn in another way by some genuinely liberal people.

Read this


http://timesofindia.ind...h/articleshow/msid_1285


Fprget the sub-continent where we share too much of history and geography, can we live any where on the globe in peace with the love of sacrifice around.

Food for thought:
Muslims demanded a separate state and they got it.
Can they rest of the Indians demand the muslims
left in India to atleast change their faith?
Put another way,
should the muslims in India agree to change their faith in order to live in peace with the rest?

Bodepudi,

Do you have any thoughts at all on reducing communal hatreds and on how we can live peacefully together in the subcontinent? All that you have been doing is just stoking the fires of hatred by your endless repetitions of hypebolic accounts of Islamic conquests and by offering harebrained solutions such as reducing Muslim population to 1947 percentages, which in fact border on a Hitlerian kind of "solution". Will your senseless tirades ever end?

Muslims seem to forget that they have as a role model a person who married a 6 or 9 year old.
Other people may have married 6/9 year old girls
but people don't hold them as role models whom they
want to follow ,whatever may be the customs.

" If religious war is ever to b4ecome unthinkable
for us, in the way that slavery and cannibalism
seem poised to ("I add caste-dowry structures-Raj"), it will be a matter of our having dispensed with the dogma of faith. If our tribalism is ever to give away to an extended moral identity, our religious beliefs can no longer be sheltered from the tides of genuine enquiry genuine criticism"--- Sam Harris in "End of Faith"

Joseph, Nandu, Chaitanya, Sundari, Ganesan, Bindu, et al--Please comment. This is what I was trying to say, perhaps using harsher language

"Pleaee do not try to trivialize what Islam had done to Hindus and Buddhists."
"Don't exaggerate either" Ghulam

Please explain. Instead of one liners and evasion and abuse, please focus on what happened-how and why? Only then it aould be prevented from happening again. Throw light on Moslem history of India-not putting bad light on those who are trying to understand.

Talking of facts and TRUTH is hateful for you-no wonder you are the perfect Qur'anic scholar.

Bodepudi,

>> Pleaee do not try to trivialize what Islam had done to Hindus and Buddhists.

Don't exaggerate either.

>> Is Qur'an a true guide for peaceful existence with the "infidels"?

Are your hateful posts in this forum conducive to peaceful existence?

>> When would the Islamic scholars and Mullahs write and openly atone for their genocidal history in India?

When will you atone for spreading so much hate in this forum?

>> Please focus on issues by going deeper into each one.

A deeper discussion with the likes of you? You make me laugh.

Ghulam:

Pleaee do not try to trivialize what Islam had done to Hindus and Buddhists. You could add and subtract and amend based on your experiences and information, etc-from your own world view. You have every right to offer them just as every one else. Names and tags have no relevance.

1. Is Qur'an a true guide for peaceful existence with the "infidels"?

2. Why are there so many contradictions if it is a word (words) of God? Or even close?

3. Why should youth be misled into believing in a fictional martyrdom when in fact they will be creating hellish realms for themselves and their community?

4.When would the Islamic scholars and Mullahs write and openly atone for their genocidal history in India? Could there be lasting peace, if based on lies and cover-up of history? Could Germans ever make peace with the Jews by denying Holocaust?

5. How important is demographics for peace in India?

These are important issues that need to be debated. With your one liners you are diverting others away from a real dialogue and by whitewashing Islamic sins are further contributing to their mountains of evil karma accumulated since 712.

6. Hindu misdeeds should be addressed separately since that confuses the main issue at hand-Hindu right for a Hindu land, if majority of Indians so demand.

7. Please ficus on issues by going deeper into each one-not one liners and diversionary tactics. No name calling!

""Small minds will selectively exploit this fact for their hate-mongering activity." Ghulam

Tens of Millions slaughered is a small "fact"?

Since it's a fact, where is the SMALL mind? If it were not true and factual, minds small or not would be an issue.

It's a very profound and a big issue, requiring bigger and better minds perhaps. To prevent Moslem friends from accumulating further evil Karmic dust-more than they had accumulated over the past 13 centuries!

Bodepudi asks,

>> "Tens of Millions slaughered is a small "fact"?"

This is how he distorts. I had said, "Small minds will selectively exploit this fact for their hate-mongering activity." When did I say, "small fact"?

http://www.outlookindia.../pti_news.asp?id=444468


More recent news for you Taslima - even your Muslim brothers don't want you in India. Go home and take some of your Bengali brothers illegal squatters in Bihar and West Bengal with you.

India's resources and hospitality to your lot is not on forever basis.

Looks like it's time for this worthless burden on India to renew her papers to extend her stay in India, So she is causing this insane controversy so it creates enough hysteria so that the Indian officers can justify her stay here. So lets just dump her bangla ass in bangladesh and let the bangla bandhus decide what they want o do with her.

Quote from KHALID SAEED "so what has ms.nasrin contribution been towards upliftment or alleviating the stifling of women ... ".

I agree - Go back home Taslima !! Fix your lot, from there.

Don't abuse Indian hospitality by take up precious and rant and rave as how amazingly brave you were for those few moments where you threw the burqa/never wore it. We don't care and why should we?

We don't want the clerics putting more sound-bytes on this and debating endlessly.
Don’t incite Indian public with your hateful and needless rant. It does not justify your stay here.

You don’t want true upliftment, you want free publicity and a “Oh, I come from poor Bangladesh, where our poor Muslim sisters are made to wear burqa and what I really want is education ... blah blah”.

Do the job, don’t blab on and on. Kaam kar, muh band kar.

Bodepudi,

>> Islam had a disproportionate role in that ugly chapter.

Not if you have an honest and objective world view.

"Small minds will selectively exploit this fact for their hate-mongering activity." Ghulam

Tens of Millions slaughered is a small "fact"?
Even a Hitler couldn't have made such an insensitive and an insincere remark!

Anyways, my notes were meant for the Indics and the victims of present and past terror-not for its perpetrators oand their open and secret their supporters.

Where is hate here except in your monumental insensitivity. Never once you tried to understand the gravity of the problem while even acknowledging my narratives as "facts".

It's like telling the Jews not to talk of Hitler since that's hate-mongering? It's even worse.

Let people speak on the ISSUE of ISLAMIC terror, past and present, writing from windows of their own experience and comprehension

>> People will be dead if they don't match up to others' maturity.

Are you now a judge of maturity?

"Cultures and civilizations have vanished in six continents from times immemorial as a part of the march of history" Ghulam

As part of the darker side of humanity, you could have said, correctly. Islam had a disproportionate role in that ugly chapter. We all agree that nothing could be done of the past. The point is not that. It's to prevent from it from repeating itself-which it will certainly will unless Hindus-Indics are TOTALLKY aware of the facts of their own history. Why should it bother others except the Al Queda and its supporters who openly avowed to Islamize India? In fact, they have already succeeded in doing so, partially

Chaitanya says,

>> Let's hope so. Killing more than a billion at one go is a big blow and will be a haunting episode if the victim is not demonized extensively before the act. Let the debates go on.

You mean you must first demonize one billion Muslims before you kill them?

Bodepudi says,

>> Cultures and entire civilizations vanished in the Middle East-from Egypt to the areas near Mt Kiliminzaro.

Cultures and civilizations have vanished in six continents from times immemorial as a part of the march of history. Small minds will selectively exploit this fact for their hate-mongering activity.

Is this a different Raj?. In any case, the 'kicking' of Islam has proved counter-productive and more damaging to the non-Islamic World. In the short run, the U. S. A. and its current President have dug them selves into a hole and in order to extricate them selves are digging holes for others. Israel has dismissed its Army Chief and is about to change its Prime Minister.

1.3 billion people and growing can not must not and will not be kicked for long.

All this will happen while you continue to live in the safe haven around Chicago. Why do you not put your monry where your mouth is and return to India. Once you are there, you will find that Islam and Muslims will be the least of your concerns as you grapple against stench and disease, power outages, water shortages, organ selling, canabilism, HIV and Aids, sex tourism, paedophilia, bar girls, corrupt policemen, sick politicians and generally poor people.

That will call for guts and commitment. Do you have them?.

This will also hold good gor all those NRIs who praise India to the skies but see no reason to return to it.

"“there is no compulsion in religion”, says the Quran( 2:256)"

Another Sura states- "Kill the Infidels" and the fanatics certainly did follow that for over 13 centuries.Look at the human devastation wrought by Islam:

1. Cultures and entire civilizations vanished in the Middle East-from Egypt to the areas near Mt Kiliminzaro.

2. Millions of Christians slaughered, leading to feeble Crusades, after 4 long centuries of Islamic brutality,

3. Jews and gentiles, Zoroastrians and Parsees, Buddhists and Hindus, Ahmediyas and Majlis, Suffis and Sikhs-massacred in their millions,

4. Physical destruction of the greatest human accomplishment thus far, the Great Nalanda Monastery, where over 20,000 numns and Bhilkkus slaughered with the merciless Islamic Sword, overnight.

5. Destriction and desecration of thousands of Ashoka Stupas and Buddhist shrines,

6. Brutal massacre of hundreds of thousands of Hindu preists and milluions of Hindus and mass rape and rapacity,

7. The loot, extortion and plunder of Indic wealth from temples and shrines,


We DEMAND reparations amounting to Trillions of dollars from the Organization of Islamic Countries.

We demand the declaration of India as a Hindu State, IMMEDIATELY, since a majority of Hindus so desire.

Bodepudi says,

>> Unless they bring their population ratio to corrsponding to that of Hindus in Pakistan, these intolerant fanatics must be reconverted and shall be denied rught to having more than one child for their indoctrination.

In his next post this hypocrite will say he loves Muslims as his brothers! And what happened to the noble Hindu dogma of 'sarva dharma samabhava'?

If Islam ever becomes modern, it'd be for people like Taslima Nasrin and Salman Rushdie who has the courage to challenge tradition. Else Islam will get its a$$ kicked the way it is getting it from the Western world. Keep it up Taslima! You have more b@lls than the retarded Mullahs and their blind followers.

"Taslima should be thrown out of the country," AIMPLB member Kamal Farooqi said. "The article written by her in Outlook magazine was derogatory and outrageous"

Look at the intolerance of these Moslem fanatics! Unless they bring their population ratio to corrsponding to that of Hindus in Pakistan, these intolerant fanatics must be reconverted and shall be denied rught to having more than one child for their indoctrination. They shall have no special laws and Burquas shall be banned in India. If they do not viluntarily control their population numbers, Indics have every right to close down their Mosques and Madarasas, in self defense.

Adi,

Everything has to be seen in the cultural context. Are we going to call the Greek noblemen who had sex with young boys perverts? Or girls in India being married at the age of nine and widowed at the age of 10? Are we here interested in questions of morality or are we more intersted in besmirching the prophets of those we want to hurt?

In the literary circles, there are two kinds of success stories. One, a good writing prowess translated into good literature; two, mudslinging. Tasleema Nazrin’s belongs to the latter category. Islamophobia precisely, as it is known now. It earns you instant fame as well as political Asylum in prospective lands.
If she was treated with disregard she rightly deserves, she wouldn’t have been the famous figure that she is today. For that she should thank those Islamists who are ‘ready to kill and die for Islam’ but not ready to ‘live’ according to the religion.
Now that her Asylum issue is being questioned, she finds it’s appropriate time to throw another round of abuse… to be in the limelight again. For that end she doesn’t mind quoting from an un heard of sura, Al Hijab.(?!). somebody please tell her that a writer needs to check her data before her readers find out how ignorant she is.
The chapter Al Ahzab(the confederates) verse 59 says “oh prophet, tell your wives and daughters and believing women that they should cast their outer garments over their persons(when abroad) that is most convenient that they should be known ( as such) and not molested. And God is oft-forgiving, most merciful”.

So…that’s what a hijab is for, not to go UNRECOGNISED, but to BE RECOGNISED as chaste.
‘Why should women have to be penalised for men’s sexual problem?’
How silly can one get? We do things for OUR own protection. The way we keep OUR homes locked so that no miscreants break in; precisely because we are NOT sex objects. How many ‘male teasing’ instances has she come across to brood about men not covering themselves?
If Quran says so, Do you have to follow? The decision is YOUR’S. that’s unique in the creation of human beings. We can CHOOSE…to be right, or…to be wrong, at our own risk. “there is no compulsion in religion”, says the Quran( 2:256)
If one can distort the Quran, there is no saying what they can’t do with hadees, traditions of the prophet(SAW). The lady has imagination. And she has used it to the hilt

The outer garment Quran talks about is not synonymous with ‘Veil’. Ms Shabana Asmi rightly said, Quran doesn’t talk about the Veil. She also doesn’t observe hijab (covering of the body) but does not think necessary to manipulate religion for her survival.

Ghulam: "but if he did, and if it was a common custom in the 7th century Arabia,"
So you agree that at least some primary customs and views of Islam are really pre-literate Arab superstitions?

Ghulam says regarding Mohamad's 9-year old wife:
"I have no way of knowing whether he did or not, but if he did, and if it was a common custom in the 7th century Arabia, it would be "rape" only in a closed petty mind like yours."
Cultural/moral relativism Ghulam? How would you evaluate the mental condition of a middle aged man who performs such an act on a 9-year old? Especially when he makes totalitarian claims such as being the "most perfect" of humans, the "last prophet" and being the model for emulation by every Muslim male? If compared to current morality his actions are found wanting, obviously the entire demented fantasy of being the "most perfect" and being the model for emulation for all times are utter rubbish. Would you agree?

Chaitanya says,

>> Just that mine is not in focus

That's why I expressed my concern.

Chaitanya says,

>> I am just giving you a sample of times to come.

Leaving your capacity to see the future aside, please just take good care of your own health.

Chaitanys says,

>> It's difficult to reason with you guys. I am not expecting change.

Have you read my posts in this section?

Chaitanya,

>> Muslims have nothing to do with India.
>> They are answerable only to Allah and their counterparts in Arabia.
>> Anything else they try to portray is not even very slimy because it's easily recognisable at some point if not always.
>> Like Shabana Azmi fighting for Animal, plant and insect rights but screams statements of ..we will back to complete burqas with full force if aliens come to reason about the justification of our Islam's treatment of women.
>> Mullah bred in one or the other way.

Do any of these statements make any sense? Please see a doctor.

“Taslima should be thrown out of India: AIMPLB “

Taslima is just testing the waters. Open call to burn Quran is going to follow. I wonder what would be the AIMPLB’s reaction then.

Nandu,

>> you still haven't answered my original question. did your prophet had sex with a 9 year old child?. a simple answer is yes or no. if you say no, i'll accept it.

I have no way of knowing whether he did or not, but if he did, and if it was a common custom in the 7th century Arabia, it would be "rape" only in a closed petty mind like yours.

TANVEER SAIYED,
How is 'Meher' different from Dowry?
Meher is paid during marriage ,from where did
divorce come into the picture?

Chaitanya says,

>> Burqa is a enforced thought coming from Arab Deserts. It should be parceled out to .....

Nasrin makes a strong plea to abolish purdah, however strident it may be. You just make an irrational rabid diatribe that make you look stupid. Are you okay?

>> Harijans are very much part of India.

So are Muslims. In fact the vast majority of them were once Dalits. Inviting 140 million Muslims to leave is the continuation of the Savarkar-Golwalkar venom we are left with.

Nandu says,

>> "the dowary system was originally called "kanyadhan""

Maybe an attempt to "justify", but I shall let it pass.

Nandu said,

>> "the word sati has come from sat-stree"

I shall never never take that to mean that you are justifying sati.

Are you then doubting the patriotism of your President, Mr. Satish, and will desire that he leaves with those 140 million once his term ends?.

An answer is important to clear up the hypocrisy and double-standards.

I only wish if good sense got the better of bias and paranoia.

Nandu says,

>> yes you did when you said "even if he did it, it might be according to customs or circumstances of that time"

If pointing out that he did what was done at that time in that place is a "justification", then your tendency to raise divisive petty points is a proof positive of your being a sanghi agent provocateur!

"Sheikh Feiz Mohammed, head of the Global Islamic Youth Centre in Sydney, urged children to become martyrs for Islam and mocked Jewish people as pigs" BBC News

ALL children, like men and women, should have freedom from indoctrination. Islamic centres are worse than the former East India Company trading posts-meant for terrotorial expansion and aggrandizement.

Every family, including Moslems, should have right to raise only the first born since otherwise the Islamic martyrs will inevitably give rise to several Modis.

Taslima should be thrown out of India: AIMPLB


http://outlookindia.com/pti_news.asp?id=444468


""Taslima should be thrown out of the country," AIMPLB member Kamal Farooqi said. "The article written by her in Outlook magazine was derogatory and outrageous."

Farooqi said the AIMPLB will soon approach the external affairs ministry to ask that Taslima be thrown out of India, .."

wise guys of AIMPLB.. why dont you also 1.the Supari minister of UP who announced 51 crores price on head of carttonists 2. M F Husain as he also deliberately hurts sentiments of Hindus?
or do you have the first claim on hurt sentiments as well?

Ref 1.:This is exactly why Religions are required to evolve with passing time.

JOSEPH
Ref 2: The fact is most Hindu male commentators on this forum are hypocrites. Ms. Nasreen's article is about the need for sartorial freedom for Muslim women but I doubt if any of these commentators who are criticising Islam for it's narrow-mindedness are open to accepting that culturally and socially we Hindus of today are ourselves conservative in our attitudes towards woman's clothes
Smriti Misra
Thanks Joseph!
Okay guys, the issue of religion getting tangled with culture and dress mores is odd to say the least.
Religion is the beliefs in the almighty and our destiny and our origins is it not?
Dress mores are to do with heat and dust, poverty and riches and comfort and mental freedom is it not?
Practice of religion or rituals I think have evolved. Today every human being , mor or less can and does practice religion in the precise way they want. And freedom of movement means you can choose to change your environment.
The Indian is particularly good at this and has devised a thousand customs to best suit various needs. No Sweat!
Smriti: In-laws are never going to be as liberal as the our-laws. They are not the best judges of a society. A better yardstick seems to be the husband and in free-choice India, at least in urban, classless India, husbands and wives tend to be largely well matched.
And might you be reflecting your personal predicament on the seemingly liberal commentators? Assuming they are conservative, lets ask would they back a state diktat on dress? Would they vote Sena or some non-existent conservative party or would they vote financial liberality and give only a small share of their minds to clothing or lack of it?
As for Tasleema on the burqa, she seems to reflect a wider, silent Muslim woman who may find it more convenient to remain silent than stir up dissent when there are other life and death questions facing large parts of the Islamic world.
Yes there are hypocritical Indian men and women but seriously we do have a loud voice and the debate is raging
So cheer up.
The in-laws are a dying generation and the new in-laws who might be weaing mini skirts themselves will be more liberal…incidentally in every country in the world the in-laws prefer a more sedately dressed daughter-in-law don’t you think?

outlook offices and staff should take extra care as friday approaches when terror instructions from a terrorist manual are reinforced to a certain group of people..

JOSEPH:
"And, Mr. Satish, what do you propose to do about those many more Sudras or Dalits or Untouchables or Harijans or..... If improvement in GDP per capita is your ultimate goal, then getting rid of them will serve your purpose better as will it greater peace of mind and less slums."

Untouchability is legally banned in India since 1947. It is almost non-existent in cities. It barely exists in villages. Harijans are very much part of India. It is true that they were oppressed in the past, but things have changed. Further, they do not support the enemies or join hands with them. They have not asked a separate nation on the basis of their numbers. They do not provide shelter and logistics to terrorists. They are as patriotic as any other patriotic Indians. So, no question of asking them to leave.

Improvement in GDP per capita was never my ultimate goal. It would be a direct benefit if these 140+ millions leave on their own. Despite pampering and despite getting so many benefits, this group is constangly cribbing. So, leaving the country of Kaafirs is good for them.

And, Mr. Satish, what do you propose to do about those many more Sudras or Dalits or Untouchables or Harijans or..... If improvement in GDP per capita is your ultimate goal, then getting rid of them will serve your purpose better as will it greater peace of mind and less slums. Cheers.

JOSEPH:

"What about the 140 million Muslims, apart from Syed, Mr. Satish?."

I would recommend they also consider leaving India and settling down in a muslim nation of their choice, if they feel that they are oppressed here and unable to follow the way of life of their choice!

Actually it will be a win-win situation. Muslims will be free from "Oppression", they can peacefully follow their religious practices, they won't be ruled by "kaafirs" and thus they can progress rapidly which is difficult in India (Read Justice Sachar's report on backwardness of minorities)!

It will good for Hindus too! No more Haj subsidies (net saving of few billion rupees every year), no more riots (net saving of enormous amount), no more soft handling of islamic terrorists since muslim vote bank is non-existant, no appeasement of Pakistan and Bangaladesh and net 15% reduction in population and thus significant increase in GDP and many more!

What about the 140 million Muslims, apart from Syed, Mr. Satish?.

What about the 140 million Muslims, apart from Syed, Mr. Satish?.

SYED, it seems you are very much obsessed with India in general and Hindus & Hinduism in particular. It would be better for you if you consider leaving India and settling down in a pure muslim nation, so that you can peacefully follow the way of life of your choice.

KK,

FYI - "Meher" in any far removed sense cannot be construed as dowry to be paid by the groom to the bride. In Islam, marriage is a contract and if the husband fails in his duties he is bound by the contract to pay his spouse a pre-determined sum of money that will enable her to sustain herself.

It is preposterous to equate it with "dowry", simply because "meher" is not a pre-condition to marriage, but a pre-condition to divorce.

The legal age for marriage for girls in Iran is 13
years not long ago it was 9 years.
Guess why?

Can somebody please clarify this.
Is there a dowry system in Islam?
In Islam the bridegroom has to pay the dowry to the bride in order to get married?

>>"Practice of sati was reported in the 4th century B.C. by Aristobulus of Cassandreia"

In total how many cases of sati took place in that
year?

>>"Sporadic cases have been reported from Rajasthan over the past five years"

can you show these reports for the sporadic CASES?
IIRC,there was just one case in the last 5 year.
This one case was reported in Outlook.

If 100 years from now someone says that
Sati was reported by Outlook in 2006 ,
does it means sati was prevalent in India during that time period?

Joseph:>>”A common law, Mr. V. Seshadri, is unacceptable to Muslims because of their belief that the Holy Quran prescribes a complete code of life and anything from outside is unacceptable. Education or its absence has nothing to do with the non-development of a common code.”


A liberal education can broaden even Moslem minds, also. Among Hindus, the so-called ‘mlecchas’ were considered bad beyond compromise. But now, the Indians are interacting internationally in all spheres. "male eva icchaa yasya sah iti mlecchah’, one whose desire is only selfdestructive evil; not all foreigners are like that, the Indian mind has understood. Aurangazeb’s eldest brother translated the Gita into Persian, to reach the west eventually. Potential for liberalization exists among Moslems also. Closed-form perceptions, like yours, are to be avoided.


The Arab-islaamists are the asura-beejas who were driven to the antaarctika, became the adama-beejas, children of Adam, after Kaalabhairava produced eve from Adam’s bone and created the garden of Eden for them and they lost His grace after their original sin. The floods and Nova’s arc brought them to the middle-east of today. Since Eve herself was from Adam, their progeny has a deficiency of spirituality. In all the other four races, women have more spirituality and men more materiality [aaNavam, a Tamil word for it, not found even in Sanskrit]. The solution is for them to mix maritally with all other races, to reduce spirituality-deficiency in their future generations. The urge for them to spread around the world and take over the places fully by jehad comes from this; but they should understand that destroying other civilizations and taking over their lands is not the real answer to their racial problem. Large-scale intermixing with other races, as in Akbar’s time, will make them normalized humans, as seen among the non-urdu Moslems of Tamil Nadu, already. Mohammed Ismail, one of the famous judges of the Madras High Court, wrote a commentary on the Kamba-raamaayana in Tamil ! Quran [= khud-aaneeta-saamah] is essentially vedic wisdom, distorted by arab language and reversed writing direction, can still merge with basic wisdom of the world if broadly and liberally interpretted.


I took a 4-month German language course in a place near Hamburg. People with Sanskrit knowledge, like me, digested German fast, because Sanskrit is the grandma of indo-European languages. I started reading classic works in German, halfway thro the course! But people from Japan, China, Mideast found it very difficult, because their language roots are different and script patterns are also different. The yellow race writes top-down, the arabs right-to-left. The Japanese and Chinese have mastered English and also made their own language scripts simpler and writings left to right. The Arabs persist with their scripts, Indian Moslems also going for Arab right to left scripts, are trying to sustain the civilizational divide. If Arabs, Moslems can also use the English script and writing left to write, and if Indian Moslems learn English and one of Indian left-to-right languages in madarsas, instead of only Arabic, they will be able to broaden their Islamic and quranic vision to more humanistic terms. Otherwise, Islamic population of the world will only reduce due to internal and external fightings, despite high rates of procreation.

small correction, Joseph:

Satrajit was satyabhama's father, not husband as wrongly stated.

The article "Let's Burn The Burqa" by Taslima Nasrin is meaningless and objectionable. If she does not like purdah it is her business and she is one of many thousands. The Islamic type of purdah is observed even by the christian nuns and its has its own values.

Joseph:>>"Which Jews are you talking about Mr. Chaithanya?" Some guys who control significant stakes in USA. They seem to influential guys and seem to have defined much of middle-east History for the the many decades. They seem to be in very small numbers. They seem to have nearly 100 nobel lauretes since the times of Holocaust. Some balls. CHAITANYA”


Chaitanya is right. There is a strong shylockian element among jews, primarily located in Zurich [=duricchaa-kshetra; place for evil desires] in Alps, Switzerland[=alpa-swotsaaha-sthala, place of lowly selfishness], those who run the number-based secret bank accounts, mainly for the international criminals and corrupt politicians of the world. Switzerland, dominated by such jews, financed both sides of the competitive arms race, while being the only non-member of the united nations. Srikrishna’s fatherinlaw, Sathyabhaama’s husband, known as SaTraajit [=SaTa-raajita = dominated by evil] was a crooked and greedy fellow; perhaps, a group of evils of his family also joined the settlement of yaadavas in what became yadusthalam in the middle-east, now called Jerusalem. Shylockian moneylender jews’ behaviour is described by Shakespeare in his play ‘Merchant of Venice’, justifying, to some extent, the anger of Hitler’s time German nazis against the jews in general, resulting in the ‘holocaust’. Zurichian jews were the main financiers of the East India Company; they have not forgiven India her freedom. They are also behind the Arab-American oil interests, perhaps responsible for the peculiar behaviour of the Bush Admn after 9/11; some even suspect a jewish conspiracy behind 9/11 itself, since very few or no jews died on those planes.


The reason for noble laureates among the yudas[jews] is the blessing for them from goddess of wisdom, Saraswathy, born as Sara, wife of Abraham[=Bramha] , born to give some leadership to them in early settlement in Jerusalem. Most jews in U.S. and Israel are generally non-shylockian and friendly to India also. Hebrew[=.Siva-broo=good speech] is essentially Sanskrit script with top bars like Hindi, written from right to left, bec of mideast culture. Jews refer to India, as ‘khud’ meaning ‘oneself’ in Hindi.


If the Alpine jews persist in their machiavillian ways in collusion Arab-oil companies, the Divine may decide to send the Alps down into the earth to close up the Arab oil wells, terminating two evils at the same time!

"A common law, Mr. V. Seshadri, is unacceptable to Muslims because of their belief that the Holy Quran prescribes a complete code of life and anything from outside is unacceptable" Joseph

The Qur'an commanded to kill the Infidels and the fanatics precisely did that for over 13 centuries, and are doing that today! Hundreds of milliuons and entire civilizations and cultures perished under the Islamic sword and we want to freedom from it. Just as we fought against the British so shall we against Islam, an expansionist political militarist ideology. Look at the massacre of women students by the Sunni terrorists? They bombed the Samara Mosque of the Shias precisely to foment the current civil war in Iraq. This tells precisely of things to come in India. If those fascists are capable of killing people of their own faith with a slightly differtent lineage, how infinitely worse they would be towards Hindus?

Have you hear of the Massacre at the Great Nalanda Monastery in 1199? Please comment.

Are you aware of the Ghaznis, Ghoris, Aurangajebs and Nadir Shahs? Please comment on their genocidal wars against Hindus and Buddhists.

How about the ethnic cleansing in the entire Middle East? Jews, Zoroastrians, Parsees, Agmediyas, Buddhists in their tens of millions and even more Hindus-How many cultures and freedoms were wiped out by the ideology of Islam? Please comment.

We never condoned the caste-dowry structures in India and they are on the last legs with the spread of jobs and technology among women and Dalits. But, this is an internal, Indic issue.


Followers of Christ are welcome in India but not Papacy and its political ideology, given its bloody history.

chaitanys says,

>> "Those ghettos, we never know"

Thank you for such a sweet reply! You must be proud of yourself!

Joseph :>>”The term sati is now sometimes interpreted as 'chaste woman'.”


Quite true. Sati in Sanskrit means ‘goodness[sat]-personified woman’, chaste and totally faithful to husband. Symbol of such women was the legendary Sati Saavitree who is said to have got her husband Satyavaan back from the jaws of death. In fact, those extremely faithful women who voluntarily insisted on dying on their husbands’ pyres [not put on it forcibly by mothers-in-law, in those days, suicide was not illegal !], were known as Satees and their burn-spots were worshipped. In one of my poems, I have written :”satee sarveSwaree mataa”, such voluntary self-immolators be deemed equivalent to Divine Mother, like daakshaayini reborn as Parvati. But then, such women were really rare, no known examples available. But again, some families, especially in Rajahsthan, could have forced their family widows into Satee, so that they could build a family ‘shrine’ and get money from worship visitors. But then again, one can only sympathize with the queens and princesses of Rajasthan’s raja families, who burnt themselves after their family males were killed by Moslem raiders, to avoid being forced into their harems. It is probably the only case where sati was really justified.

Happiness is a state of mind, Mr. Parbat Laldeng, and, although, location, climate, demography and socio-political situation are compelling factors, it is the mind that in the final analysis that determines one's happiness quotient.

If you are happy to live in a 95 per cent Hindu country, you should consider moving to Nepal immediately. This is because neither the U. S. A. or Colorado or India are in a position to provide you the sort of happiness you seek. The hypocrisies abound.

A common law, Mr. V. Seshadri, is unacceptable to Muslims because of their belief that the Holy Quran prescribes a complete code of life and anything from outside is unacceptable. Education or its absence has nothing to do with the non-development of a common code.

I wish more muslim women like Tanveer come out and speak their mind on this issue ...

Joseph

You live in Pakistan, a 95 percent Muslim country and are very happy with Islam, you say.

It is very fine of you to be so happy about Islam. You are to be congratulated on your wisdom and happiness.

We Hindus will be just as happy as you: when we iive in a 95 percent Hindu country.

Nandu,

>> sati is condemned by all hindus as an evil practice.

I know that. That is good.

>> a supposedly educated muslim like you shamelesly jusify an act of barbarism by your prophet. to have sex with a 9 year old child,

I do not justify it. But you will unashamedly use it to create the maximum ill feeling that you can create. But then you are Nandu. You will never change.

"Akbar required that permission be granted by his officials, and these officials were instructed to ...... especially in conditions of war and upheaval."

So in the past when muslims were rulers they did interfered (to say the least) in Hindu rituals which they did not agree with.

But now you think outsiders (including a muslim women like Ms Nasrin) sould not interfere with barbaric Islamic traditions (like killing kafirs and burquas) and reforms should come from inside. BRAVO !!

Nandu,

>> this is the reason i want to educate you and yopur fellow muslims about what is happening in mosques in UK.

You are making an issue out of a non-issue, and your motives are patently not as good as you claim them to be, but hey, it is a free country! If this is the level at which you want to hold a dialogue, I can't stop you.

>> How many cases of sati do you know of among the Rajputs before the Islamic invasion of India?

Practice of sati was reported in the 4th century B.C. by Aristobulus of Cassandreia, a Greek historian who traveled to India with the expedition of Alexander of Macedon in the city of Taxila, and by an Indian soldier in the army of Eumenes of Cardia, whose two wives vied to die on his funeral pyre, in 316 BCE. (Wikipedia).

>> how many cases of sati have you heard of this year or last year or last decade or for that matter last

Sporadic cases have been reported from Rajasthan over the past five years, and there was an article on it in OUTLOOK last year. But I would agree with you that the problem, by and large, does not exist today. I hate to see it thrown around today to slander Muslims. Nor should it be used to slander Hindus.

One way of uniting the Hindus to tell them
about the reality of Islam and what Islamic Invasion
did to India.

"A poor way to support your slander. Blaming Muslims for the sati custom is probably as low as a slanderer can get."

Burying your head in the sand is not going to change the reality.
How many cases of sati do you know of among the Rajputs before the
Islamic Invasion of India ?

More over ,how many cases of sati have you heard of this year or last year or last decade or for that matter last 5 decades?

Nandu,

>> WHY ON EARTH THE MULLAS ARE ENCOURAGING YOUR FELLOW MUSLIMS TO FOLLOW THIS IN 2007?????????.

I do not know any. How many Muslims do you know who married 9 year old girls?

>> just read the history of rajput queens like rani padmini.

A poor way to support your slander. Blaming Muslims for the sati custom is probably as low as a slanderer can get. Keep up the good work!

Reform in Islam is never possible.
Muslims will never accept that Quran does not give
equal status to women.
Like you see in this forum ,muslims saying women
in Islam already have equal rights.
If they accept the reality it will prove
that Allah was a MCP.

BY THE WAY SESHADRI-Should Muslim women wear burqa ?

Seshadri-Ravana was borne Muhamad of Arabia and Padmawati his daughter ? MY- MY - What a new direction ?
Please illuminate it more .I INTEND TO DO DOCTRATE ON THIS SUBJECT !

Yes WELL SAID Sayed Sahib when whole India is coverted into Islam there will be peace ,harmony ,unity---.
LIKE PAKISTAN WHICH IS THE LAND OF ISLAM ? Ever heard peace in Balochistan, Balwaristan,Sindhi Muslims ,mohazirs Waziristan ,Pathans ? Total peace in Pak ?? LIKE EYGYPET ? LIKE BANGLADESH ? Like Karbala ? PEACE WHERE SUNNIES WILL KILL SHIAS ? Like Kurds ?

HOW ARE YOU DIFFERENT FROM HINDU HARD LINERS ?

“Let's leave the shit about Hinduism aside. Syed, how do you see India to be when people convert to Islam like you?”

India will be a near perfect state when that happens. Why the question of Nationalism or Unity comes only when one follows Islam, the way of life which talks about Monotheism (One God)? If you think India can be united by going back to Aryan and Varnasram culture why not having Muslims, who have better way of life and teachings? I see only one obstacle for the unity of India. Its the Snagh Parivar who doctrinaire all possible(even impossible some times) filthy ways to onslaught others who dont accept their version of life style.

For the one who said “Hinduism is Live and Let Live”. I didnt know this. Hurray! I found a better Hinduism from an IT age saint. So why dont you preach such Hinduism to Neo-Golwalkars..Thackareys and every other parivar entity who think raping innocent Nuns and Muslim women as National Dignity, Who arson thousands of innocents alive as National rebuttal, Who always want to make India into sanadhana(Caste) chaos, Who always want to dominate others in any possible way (Brahminism), the Sangh Parivar who support the LTTE terrorists who destroy the Buddhist nation, Why dont you tell your Neo-Hinduism to these guys first. If you do that India will become the safest united India.

When you think Hinduism is the superset of Islam, why dont you allow people to peacefully follow their choice of way of life. Dont you think you betray yourself by giving such definitions? Shame on you.

But for those who eagerly wait for every other opportunity to show their ugly teeth of hatred towards Islam, the only answer is “Dye of your hatred, you'll not see what you expect”. The Quranic verse is the apt reply.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
They want to extinguish God's Light with their mouths, but God will not allow except that His Light should be perfected even though the disbelievers (in oneness of God, polytheist, pagans) hate (it).

It is He who has sent His messenger(Muhammad) with guidance and the way of life(Islam) that is truth, to make it superior over all religions even though the disbelievers (in oneness of God, polytheist, pagans) hat (it).

-Chapter At Tauba (9) Verses 32 and 33
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Islam is growing day by day through out the world falsifying your claim that it is propagated through Sword. No Aurangazeb is ruling the world today.

Let Peace be up on those who love peace and truth.

Nandu'

>> sati is direct result of muslim invasions for over thousand years. women prefered to kill themselves rather than to be raped by a muslim.

When was this falsehood invented by the sangh?

Nandu,

>> but when a respectable channel like Channel 4 publishes this, it has got lot of credibility.

If it was said, the question would be how often such things get said, since I have never heard them in the sermons I have attended, in what reference it was said, was it an attempt at explication or was it a recommendation, why that portion was aired and why it was picked by Mr Nandu, our ever friendly and sympathetic reporter. My nephew who is on a board in England that appoints imams for the mosque in his locality is forever complaining of the poor quality of candidates they get.

>> do you beleive that pr muhammad married a 9 year old child and had sex with her?

If he did, that has to be seen in the context of the customs and mores of that time in that place. One of the Hindu posters in this forum once reported similar practices in ancient India.

THANKS Faruki-so Kuran does not talk of hoors . This setteles the curiosity .

Ghai,

>> I had posed one question-can Roohs enter into sexual activities?

That's one question that never bothered me, so why do you let it bother you? I do not know any Muslims who believe the 72 virgin story. It is probably propagated by the recruiters of suicide-bombers. The basic thesis is that those who do good deeds will be rewarded (somewhat similar to moksha/nirvana theory). How this concept gets told depends upon the credulity of the audience and the hyperbole of the mullah.

Chacha Joe- I read Mughal period in depth from various authors.I did not found such Firmans issued by Mughals .I will recheck again.
HOWEVER WHEN AFZAL KHAN WAS KILLED BY SHIVA JI AT PARTAP GARH HIS 100 OUEENS AND CONCUBINES COMMITED JOHAR OR WERE KILLED BY AFJAL KHAN BEFORE HE LEFT FOR PARTAP GARH.. I WILL REVERT BACK SOON CHACHA.

Satish,

>> "Who told that Alla ordained to kill goats on Id? I feel sorry that even educated muslims blindly belive this"

I doubt any educated Muslims believe it. There is a story attached to each holiday in all religions.

>> "except muslims no other religion considers it a religious ritual"

Jews have an even more elaborate religious ritual attached to animal sacrifica.

>> "If plenty of other food sources are available, you don't need animals to survive"

Although about 82% of world's population is nonvegetarian, you have a valid point.

I see the discussion veering into different directions..

I see a lot of Muslim brothers insisting on their sisters' right to wear "purdah" also quoting Islam is a religion that treats men and women as equal. Though the assertions are laughable and can be junked by just quoting the Quran/Hadiths etc.. (people can do their own research and find out), I have a simple question to the Muslim brothers. I have heard and read that women are not allowed inside majority of Indian mosques (Sunni??) (except Ismaili and other similar sects).. Is that true??. What's your take on it?. how does that gel with equal rights in Islam. OR for you guys equal rights stop with Muslim women able to bear kids raise good "believing Muslims" and not allowed entry into mosques. It would be better if you "brothers" can come up with a list of what is allowed for "Muslim women" .

On a comparative scale, Upper caste Hindus have similarly denied Dalits the right of temple entry for so long and have opened up only recently (say in the last 70 years). I see an improvement and reforms in in Hindu laws and behavior as a group but unfortunately a change for the worse in the Muslim group.

ARIF JAMEEL:
"Example of twin sisters

Suppose two sisters who are twins, and who are equally beautiful, walk down the street. One of them is attired in the Islamic hijaab i.e. the complete body is covered, except for the face and the hands up to the wrists. The other sister is wearing western clothes, a mini skirt or shorts. Just around the corner there is a hooligan or ruffian who is waiting for a catch, to tease a girl. Whom will he tease? The girl wearing the Islamic Hijaab or the girl wearing the skirt or the mini? Naturally he will tease the girl wearing the skirt or the mini. Such dresses are an indirect invitation to the opposite sex for teasing and molestation. The Qur’an rightly says that hijaab prevents women from being molested."

Suppose a terrorist is walking wearing a hijab and hiding a gun inside hijab. How will the innocent citizens know that they are in danger?

Suppose there are two teachers. One wearing a hijab and other without a hijab. Who would the student prefer for teaching?

"Example of twin sisters"

Read a similar "Example of twin brothers" for a change..

Suppose two brothers, who are twins and both perverts and rascals walk down the street. Both of them enjoy solving mysteries and exploring the unexplored. They decide to molest a girl for fun .They see 2 girls in the street corner..one is wearing a revealing western outfit, no mystery there..and other is wearing a full hijab, revealing only eyes and looking like an enigma wrapped in a puzzle. Whom will they molest ? Obviously the one in a full hijab , as they enjoy solving mysteries!! AND Btw some perverts molest newborns and animals as well..so put a hijab on camels also.

"On the contrary it has actually degraded them to the status of concubines, mistresses and society butterflies who are mere tools in the hands of pleasure seekers and sex marketeers, hidden behind the colourful screen of ‘art’ and ‘culture’."

That is one sweeping generalisation..All the ladies from the West have become concubines in one sentence..Shame on you . Learn to respect ladies for what they are than what you want them to wear.

Western society falsely claims to have uplifted women


Western talk of women’s liberalization is nothing but a disguised form of exploitation of her body, degradation of her soul, and deprivation of her honour. Western society claims to have ‘uplifted’ women. On the contrary it has actually degraded them to the status of concubines, mistresses and society butterflies who are mere tools in the hands of pleasure seekers and sex marketeers, hidden behind the colourful screen of ‘art’ and ‘culture’.

Example of twin sisters


Suppose two sisters who are twins, and who are equally beautiful, walk down the street. One of them is attired in the Islamic hijaab i.e. the complete body is covered, except for the face and the hands up to the wrists. The other sister is wearing western clothes, a mini skirt or shorts. Just around the corner there is a hooligan or ruffian who is waiting for a catch, to tease a girl. Whom will he tease? The girl wearing the Islamic Hijaab or the girl wearing the skirt or the mini? Naturally he will tease the girl wearing the skirt or the mini. Such dresses are an indirect invitation to the opposite sex for teasing and molestation. The Qur’an rightly says that hijaab prevents women from being molested.

Joseph:>>”Unlike Hinduism, Judaism and Christianity, Mr. V. Seshadari, Islam does not have and ordained or designated priestly cadre.”.


In Hinduism priests are just respected; aachaaryas can only advise those who go to them; although wrong advice given to people in power can cause problems; but, in Hinduism today, politicians and casteicians exercise more power on people than priests.


If what you say about Islam is true, then, respected Moslems like President Kalam and Wipro’s Premji should take steps to bring about greater social democracy in Islam in India. The Moslem Law Board should be reconstituted with English-educated middle-aged graduates as members, 50% of them women. They could then help prepare a common law for all of India, taking the better elements of the existing separate laws for Hindus, Moslems, and Christians, in the country.

Incidentally, Joseph, there is no justification also for ‘hindus’ pointing out ill-treatment of females by Moslems; those who live in glass houses should not throw stones. The original sin of ‘woman-ill-treatment’ lies with Hinduism. If Daksha had not driven his daughter to self-immolation, kaalabhairva would not have arisen from Shiva’s locks and the God of the Abrahamic religions would not have been there, leaving only one religion for man on earth.. But for the dhobi denigrating Sita’s morals, and Srirama sending Her in pregnancy to the forest, deciding to uphold his raja-dharma over pati-dharma, india’s civilization would not have incurred the curse of Sita. If vikramaditya had built a seetaa-ram temple in Ayodhya, like the Raadhe-Shyam temple in Dwaaraka, Sita’s curse would have been removed; Baber could not have demolished the temple. Even now, if it is decided to build a Seetaa-raama temple at the babri-mosque site, spiritual forces preventing the solution of Ayodhya problem would vanish. But hindu priestocracy will not think of it! The very worst form of ‘woman-ill-treatment’ was done to Droupadi by Duhsaasana and Duryodhana in their dad’s court, [not stopped by Bhishma/Drona !] was stopped only by Krishna’s divine grace, from Dwaraka. . Not much of royalty was left in India after the Kurukshetra war!. Over 2 millennia later, Mother Padmavati was to be moved up the Tirupati hill at the end of the kaliyuga, around the time of birth of Buddha. Decadent hindu priesthood ignored it, saying Kaliyuga will go on for 4-lakh yrs! Poor treatment of women only increased among hindus, forcing women to avoid tilaks/flowers/coloured dress on widowhood, forced to shave hair and then finally forced to burn on the dead husband’s funeral pyre, as satee ! vaamaachaara tantra in somnath! No wonder that Ravana was born Mohammed in Arabia, Padmavati as his daughter Fatima [Padma]. Gazzni attacked Somnath 18 times!


The Islamic on-slaught on in India was punishment for India’s hindu men illtreating their women systematically. The Islamic nawabs then picked off the hindu women in hundreds from the streets for their harems, but, perhaps, they were not cruel to them in the harems. The ugliest part of hindu himsaa on women was, unfortunately, provoked only by other women: the mother-in-law illtreating daughter-in-law, using her son as instrument of illtreatment! Most of the illtreatments on widows were provoked and implemented only by other non-widowed and already-widowed women in joint families ! All we can say is that any society which illtreats women, the mothers of man, cannot get the blessings of God, by any of His names. Decay and self-destruction are inevitable; in Iraq or in India; social impropriety will cause national decay. Arguments are unnecessary; introspection, self-improvement, spiritual self-dependance, disempowerment of mullahs and priests will pave the way for a better world all over.

Unlike Hinduism, Judaism and Christianity, Mr. V. Seshadari, Islam does not have and ordained or designated priestly cadre.

Muslims were required to decide for themselves on the basis of the guidance provided by the Holy Quran, the Sunnah and the Hadees.

Obviously, human nature being what it is, there must have been as many interpretations as there were interpretors. As aresult sects developed, schools of thought were created and a interprative class now loosely called Mullahs followed. The role of the Mullah was grounded in the fact that the Holy Quran retained its original Arabic format and the bulk of the followers of Islam, in time, were not Arabs.

In the circumstance it may not be useful or feasible to remove the Mullah from the equation. One can, of course, educate them on a broader plane.

I think Taslima Nasreen needs to be educated on Islam. She is just making her own imaginary comments which is deifinately hurting the sentiments of Musilms all over the world. No one has the right to say anything about any religion of this kind. Its a pure indication that she wants to get unethical publicity and nothing else and thats why she is using this kind of cheap tactics.Taslima!! the mistake which has been done in case of Salman Rushdie(which made him famous) will not be repeated here by Muslims and you will definately go down which you truly deserve. Coming back on the topic one need to understand that Islam is the only religion where women gets equal rights as to men and at the same the protection which is being provided to them e.g. Meher(dowry paid by Groom). Burqa (Veil) increases the respect of female and protects them from getting harassed which is pretty common in modern society. I would request other readers to pls understand the sensitivity of the matter before sending any comments and hurting each others emotions.

Joseph: Thank you for noticing my posting and responding, in the midst of a sudden increase in chatters on the subject. Incidentally,
in quronic quotations given by Taslima, the recommendation seems to be only to cover those parts of the female body, which may be sexually provocative to men. Covering of the face is not specifically mentioned. In the pictures in hindu houses showing Sri Krishna with the gopikas, they just wear sarees which cover their bodies elegantly, along with the head-top and hair, while leaving exposed the face[for recognition], midriff [for carrying waterpots], and hands[for working freely] and feet [for walking freely]. With tilaks on foreheads, they look respectably attractive without being provocative. In my spiritual perception, angel Gabriel implies Narada, and the quran as given by him in the name of Allah [=Hara=kaalabhairava=Siva], only prescribes the kind of modesty-based non-provocative dress of Indian women for millennia. Perhaps, the sands of Arabia might have needed heavier covering of hair and and midriff also, since water was available only in the oasis and brought to villages on camels. I would rather blame the male-chavinist mullahs and not so much the quran for all the sufferings of women in Islamic countries. In comparison with many other religions and societies, Mohammed and Quran have left many positive elements of law favourable to women. If men and women in islam jointly decide to disempower the mullahs and live by themselves reading and living as per quran, their lives will be much easier and more productive.

Which Jews are you talking about Mr. Chaithanya?. Those in Israel were beaten so badly in Lebanon that they threw out the Army Head yesterday.

Israel is a cypher without the U. S. A. in support.

The numbers were quoted by me to indicate the extent of follwing not to show one Religion as superior to another on the basis of the number of adherents. Let us not draw incorrect conclusions from mere facts.

This too,
Nandu.

www.csuchico.edu/~cheinz/syllabi/ass
t001/spring99/parrilla/parr1.htm - 15k - Cached - More from this site

Sati (practice) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The term sati is now sometimes interpreted as 'chaste woman'. Contents. 1 Origin. 2 Practice ... about this time, instances of sati began to be marked by ...en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sati_(practice) - 103k

This is for you, Nandu. Let us not distort facts and history.

Suppression

Mughal period
Humayun issued a royal fiat against sati, which he later withdrew.

Akbar required that permission be granted by his officials, and these officials were instructed to delay the woman's decision for as long as possible. The reasoning was that she was less likely to chose to die once the emotions of the moment had passed. In the reign of Shah Jahan, widows with children were not allowed in any circumstances to burn. In other cases governors did not readily give permission, but could be bribed to do so[35]. Later on in the Mughal period, pensions, gifts and rehabilitative help were offered to the potential sati to wean her away from committing the act. Children were strictly forbidden from the practice. The later Moghuls continued to put obstacles in the way but the practice carried on in the areas outside their capitals.

The strongest attempts to control it were made by Aurangzeb. In 1663, he "issued an order that in all lands under Mughal control, never again should the officials allow a woman to be burnt"[36]. In spite of such attempts however, the practice continued, especially in conditions of war and upheaval.

Nandu, must we raise such extraneous issues about the 'Behaviour of Muhammad' when discussing the Guiding Principles of Islam. It is not really whether Krishna had relationship with his Gopis or Jesus with Mary Magdalene, etc.

To me what is important is the guidance that these persons were able to provide. Guidance that has 900 million, 2.3 billion and 1.3 billion followers respectively. What about Buddha and Kung Futze and Mahavir and Guru Nanak?

It is a display of petty mindedness if not mean mindedness to raise questions about alleged sexual peccadilloes of Religious Leaders and even Gandhi for that matter. Let us keep our discussions philosophical and clean.

Living as I do in a 96.5 per cent Muslim country, I have often been given to understand that if one has utmost faith in the Holy Quran, one can not but take a 'literalestic' view of its injunctions. When the issue of 'ijtehad' and the presence of various sects and schools of thought in Islam is raised, the counter-point is that these are all settled issues.

Where do my Muslim friends in this Forum place Dr. Zakir Naik of the Islamic Research Foundation and Peace Tv in the spectrum of preachers on Islam or for that matter Dr. Israr Ahmed?.

I do not think that they would fall in to the categoty of 'uneducated Mullahs'. However, they are quite 'literalistic' about the injunctions of the Holy Quran. This is why I ask the question.

Faruki and other friends:
Sikh -Hindu religeons prohibit killing of animals but many persons from both the communities are non-vegies. Even in Kali Mandirs goats are sacrificed . IN MOST FAMOUS KAMAKHYA MANDIR IN GUHATI ASSAM GOATS ARE REGULARLY SACRIFICED.
Christians are regular meat eaters.
WE WERE DISCUSSING BURQA-LET US GO BACK TO IT.
I had posed one question-can Roohs enter into sexual activities ? If not then What will Male Souls do with Female Hoors in Jannat ? I am just curious how this Hoor matter can be reconsiled ?? What are Islam's views on this matter ? Hindu mythology says Soul has no sex.

MUMBAIKAR:
"Sacrificing Goats, lambs on ID, proclaimimg allahs name whilst sacrificing is ordained by Allah."

What is the difference in "Sacrificing" and "Butchering"? Afterall an innocent animal is killed no matter what word you use for this process. Who told that Alla ordained to kill goats on Id? I feel sorry that even educated muslims blindly belive this. If Alla has ordained it, then muslims should not eat the animal meat after killing it. They should only kill the animal and stop there. I don't think Alla or any other god in any religion has ordered to kill animals to please the god. This is a myth spread by meatlovers to reduce the intencity of sins of killing. Basically, animals are buthcered to consume and to satisfy the tongue. There are nonvegatarians in all religions. Only Jains have higest number of vegatarians. I think 50% Hindus consume meat. But except muslims no other religion considers it a religious ritual.

"Now slaughter of animals for feeding purpose has been allowed. Not only in islam but in most religions."

Who has allowed killing animals for food? Who was the authority to give this permission? If, as per Quran, everythig is created by Alla, who are we to destroy his creation? And where plenty of other food items available, why one should consume animal meat?

"And man ever since the first man have been slaughtering animals for food."

Agreed.


"The signaficance of doing so on Id is something beyond the scope in this forum. But its a ritual which is ordained for muslims. And these animals are bred for this purpose."

Once again let me say that Alla or any other god in any religion has not ordained to kill any animal for survival. Those who are doing it on the name of Alla or any other god, are making sins.

"Human life is far more valuable,since the human creation itself is unique and for a purpose. All other things on earth and in the skies are commanded by god to serve the humans or created for their sustenance. To survive u have to slaughter animals or uproot plants and vegetation. Thats the basic need in the life of a human."

If plenty of other food sources are available, you don't need animals to survive. "All other things on earth and in the skies are commanded by god to serve the humans or created for their sustenance." etc. is a false propaganda spread by those who want to justify their gruesome acts.

All species have equal right to live. Let's not violate their rights.

Great. What a nuanced comment from one of the brilliant intellectuals churning out from the emerging world. Nasrin shows the difference between celebrity distanced take on political matters and intellectual commitment. And, we in India wanted her to go back. What a pity. With Nasrin both Bangladesh and India have all to gain.

Tanveer says,

>> "Taslima Nasreen's balatant disregard for the Holy Book is appalling"

It appears that purdah is not her real focus, and she may have a wider agenda. The best approach to updating our thinking on the subject of purdah would, in my opinion, be to reinterpret what is written in the scriptures in light of changed circumstances, avoiding a literalistic or ultra-orthodox mind-set.

Dear Satish,

Sacrificing Goats, lambs on ID, proclaimimg allahs name whilst sacrificing is ordained by Allah. Now slaughter of animals for feeding purpose has been allowed.Not only in islam but in most religions.And man ever since the first man have been slaughtering animals for food.The signaficance of doing so on Id is something beyond the scope in this forum.But its a ritual which is ordained for muslims.And these animals are bred for this purpose.If this is a topic with diverse views lets respect each others opinion and let it be at that.
And its not the story of Mohammed and his son, but the prophet Abraham ( Ebrahim) and his son, and mind u even jews , and christians consider abraham as a prophet and know of this.
Human life is far more valuable,since the human creation itself is unique and for a purpose.All other things on earth and in the skies are commanded by god to serve the humans or created for their sustenance.To survive u have to slaughter animals or uproot plants and vegetation.Thats the basic need in the life of a human.
As for Chaitanya's comments, well the behaviour of all kinds of youth,indian, needs a lot of improvement.cant pinpoint one community as different.maybe his personal experience may be different but in an overall perspective i'm sure all will agree.Once again I would say that Quran has prescribed that women have to dress and cover their modesty and only face and hands( below wrists) can be uncovered.Now the burqa needs to be in line with this.Thats it.If someone over od's by covering their faces too its their personal choice.If someone does not wear its their personal choice.Its between them and god.These mullhas have created the concept of burqa as a supression tool which is incorrect.But it is a convinient & modest dressing.Women faces are uncovered so they can talk are identifiable , what more? Apart form this as in society where we have seperate queues, sitting arrangement in trains& Buses,same is required as per islam for women.They are not tretaed second class at all.But the quran mentions that men and women have been given seperate charachteristics,strenthgts and weaknesses.
Overall though i accept that the so called islamic countries have definitely suppressed the women and their rights.But people should not blame islam for that.If these countries misinterpret the Quranic verses and veer away from the prophets teachings its a sorry state of affairs for muslims.And in arabis the age old tribal laws seem to hold more weight that islamic laws.

Satish,

>> all muslims in the world are involved in doing great sin by killing and then consuming animals. >> Butchering animals is considered extremely sacred

82% of world's population is nonvegetarian but only Jews and Muslims have prescribed religious rites related to the sacrifice, expressing thanks to God. Christians, Buddhists and nonvegetarian Hindus do not usually have any sacrificial rites, but some pagans, as far as I know, do.

>> They also mention a story how Mohammad tried to kill his son for Alla and then Alla converted his son into a goat and hence this ritual was started.

Mohammed had no sons. You are referring to the story of a much earlier prophet, Abraham. The story, which is told in the Torah, Bible and the Quran, is meant to illustrate the intense devotion of Abraham to God. Meat eating however precedes Abrahamic (and Vedic) periods.

I do not support the hijab, but Taslima Nasreen's balatant disregard for the Holy Book is appalling. I am a non-practising Moslem, and Taslima's ideas are so radical, they have me fuming.

The Quran talks about covering your body. Let us not forget that in those days men and women alike did not cover their bodies, and ergo the Quran directed women to clothe themselves. This has been construed as purdah by the Maulvis who have been preaching themselves hoarse about the merits of the "purdah". The discrimination has NOT been imposed by the Quran, but by its self-proclaimed preachers.

On another note, it is truly disappointing to read Taslima's article, because it speaks of a woman with no faith.

SHANKAR -regularly I have posted that Muslim terrorists are harboured by Muslims OTHERWISE FOREIGN TERRORIST CAN'T SURVIVE A DAY IN INDIA.
Why I said with a pinch of salt? Any rabid propoganda by Muslims or Hindus does not solve any problem.Never quoted HIndu paper.
OK BOSS WHAT IS YOUR SOLUTION TO SOLVE THE TERROR PROBLEM IN INDIA ? WHAT MUSLIMS AND ALSO HINDUS ARE DOING WE KNOW - IMPORTANT IS HOW TO SOLVE THE PROBLEM OF TERROR ?
Let us look ahead. KINDLY EDUCATE US ON PRACTICAL WAYS TO TACKLE THE TERROR PROBLEM.After all solution is the need of hour.

MUMBAIKAR:
"Quran clearly mentions killing anyone is a big big sin except under self defense etc which is common sense too. Those who kill and think they will enter paradise are the biggest fools and devils partners and absolutely misguided."

On Id, Ramzan and other festivals in Islam, millions of goats, lambs, cows and chickens are brutally killed (using "Halal" method) chanting verses from Quran. Butchering animals is considered extremely sacred and it is done on the order from Alla. Has Alla/Mohammad ordered buthcering innocent animals? As per your quote above, all muslims in the world are involved in doing great sin by killing and then consuming animals.

Whenever I have raised this issue on other forums, even educated muslims mentioned that they don't kill animals but the animals are sacrificed on the name of Alla. They also mention a story how Mohammad tried to kill his son for Alla and then Alla converted his son into a goat and hence this ritual was started.

I am amazed to see that even educated muslims fully believe in this story and butcher a goat on Id. What is the reality? Has Alla really ordered to kill and then consume animals? Or muslims, to satisfy their tongue are consuming animals and to reduce the feeling of sin, chanting Quranic verses while killing it?

Syed:
"So what is HInduism? I never got a proper definition in my life as a Hindu."

Principle of Hinduism is very simple - "Live and Let Live!". This means enjoy your life without troubling others. All humans should enjoy this beautiful life without bothering non-Hinuds and without hurting/killing other live species. That is why Hinduism does not allow consuming animal meat while Islam officially allows killing goats and other animals on Id and it has been given a religious ritual. While it is true that some casts in Hindus still kill goats/lambs on some religions occasion, but it is their personal choice. Hinduism does not permit killing.

"Unlike Hinduism which says every thing is God Islam says everything is God's."

What Hinduism is saying is the superset of what Islam is saying. Isn't it?

"Islam tells every one is from the same parent and so brothers."

If everyone is from the same parents and hence brothers, then why muslims consider non-muslims inferior? Why Saudi Arabia, the birth place of Islam and the most sacred place for Islamists, has banned entry of non-muslims in Mecca and Medina? You may be aware that Saudi Arabia offers 1 lakh riyals on the death of muslims, 10000 riyals on the death of christains and a few hundred for Hindus. Why this discrimination?

"Unlike varnasram which divides people in to different grades and castes by their birth which is never in the individual's control"

Everywhere in the world, in all countries, in all religions people are divided on different basis. People are divided on the basis of colour of the skin, wealth, education, religion, cast and many more. White skin consider themselves superior than non-whites, sunnis treat themselves true Islamic and treat Shias, Ahmedias etc. non-muslims, Arabs consider non-arab muslims inferior, In India upper castes consider lower castes as inferior . . . This is human attitude. Hinduism has not encouraged Varnashram. Hindus in the past had practiced it. Fortunately it has been legally banned since 1947 and many upper caste Hindus have accepted this mistake and the casteism is reducing.

"But Islam opened my eyes by giving proper answers for each and every question a man's instinct will ask."

I don't know what your questions were. Good that you got answers to your questions. One can practice Islam or be a Hindu or convert to any other religion, one should not give pain to others including animals. Live and Let Live!

someone has mentioned that nowhere it is mentioned that Hindu scirptures are revealed by God. Please check the website of Arya Samaj Movement where this is clearly mentioned.In fact Arya Samaj movement quotes form the vedas the oneness on god and quotes the vedas as against idol worship etc.But thats not relevant for this forum as of now.I believe that all have a right to worship as they think fit.Let god decide rewards/punishment.Lets not go into a debate of yr god is better than mine type.
Again Sati/cateism are evils plaguing Hindu society as are infamous fatwas from mullahs plaguing islamic society.There are such issues in all religions.And reason is obvious that these are due to so called experts wanting to exercise control and power over others.
Once again Allah has not discriminated against women in life on earth or thereafter.See, reward of paradise etc is what all prophets have spoken of.Lets just do good ourselves and await what is due to us.See, for clarification on the point of Roohs able to have sex and and pure women as reward in paradise etc, though I know a few details I am no expert and cannot comment here.I beleive u cannot explain concepts of 10th standard topics if u have not gone through the 1st to 9th standard course.That goes for me and all of us.
Moghuls and kings who have destroyed other cultures were tyrants.Nothing Islamis about that.Tyrants are tyrants irrespective of religion.Throughu=out history there have been such kind of kings and kingdoms.Just that the more recent ones are the moghuls etc.They have not done any good for islam and at best have done disservice to islams cause.Ditto for the terrorists causing destruction worldwide.Quran clearly mentions killing anyone is a big big sin except under self defense etc which is common sense too.Those who kill and think they will enter paradise are the biggest fools and devils partners and absolutely misguided.
Muslim youth need to be properly guided no doubt.My fellow indians please be patient. Misguided youth will slowly realise their folly and dump the so called experts and their fatwas.
Though i must say Chaitanya is being very intolerant and seemingly unable to put forth any stong arguments and is only upto islam bashing and using foul language too.So its no use replying to him.

Ghai - "I am in no postion to call these tapes as fake or genuine."

Then why did you say they have to be taken with a pinch of salt initially , implying they are fake ?

"Regarding faithfreedom is anti- Islam ; is a fact"

Political leanings did not stop you or any one from quoting The Hindu - even if it is a commie anti hindu paper, Chomsky - even if he is anti america and A roy - even if she is anti everything..Why a diferent rule for faith freedom? Look at the message not the messenger.If you think it is wrong counter it with facts. It is you who is brushing all those who disagree with you as anti islam.

"MERELY PAINTING ONE WHOLE COMMUNITY WITH ONE BRUSH WILL NOT SOLVE INDIA'S PROBLEMS"

Nor will refusing to accept that terrorism in the name of Islam is a Global problem today..burying our heads in sands will not make the problem go away..To suspect the source just because the news is anti islam is chicanery.

"EVER THOUGHT WHY OUR OWN BOYS ARE TAKING ARMS AGAINST THEIR MOTHERLAND ?? "

All valid questins but OT here, We can discuss all of them in separate threads...The point is why are you even refusing to acknowledge the fact that preachings from mosques can be anti national ? ( as it was in kashmir in 1990s).

It is amusing to see the usual excuses.."fringe elements", "out of context" etc..when these recordings were done over a period of one year in various mosques. Looks like only the 'seculars' speak in context all the time here.

Read here about Hinduism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinduism


In Hinduism ,you can be a athiest and still be a
Hindu.Is there anybody forcing you to believe
in all those gods in Hinduism?

SAYED BHAI-Can ROOHS THAT IS SOULS ENGAGE in Sexual Pleasure ? IF NOT WHAT WILL I DO WITH HOORS OR FEMALE PARTNERS AFTER DEATH ?
I WILL BE GRATEFULL TO BE ENLIGHTNED WHAT SHIAS AND OTHER MUSLIM SECTS SAY ?

Syed,
>>"Islam says everything is God's."
Then it should mean all men are equal.
Read chapter 9 verse 73 from Quran.
All unbelievers are destined for hell.
Why is the meciful Allah so harsh on unbelievers?

Which book in Hinduism says that caste is based on birth?
Then tell me where it says that it is the word of God
and should be followed as such.

Syed bhai-it is the muslim women who have to wear Burqa what are their views AND LET THEM SPEAK ? Why Muslim men are worked Up ? on TV we regularly hear emancipated muslim women showing resentment against Burqa.
There was question of Hindu women's right to property etc -slowly laws have been enacted.

REST ASSURED SOONER OR LATER MUSLIMS TOO WILL ACCEPT UNIFORM CIVIL CODE IN INDIA.HOW LONG MUSLIMS WILL LIKE TO BE GOVERNED BY DIFFERENT SETS OF LAWS ? IN DEMOCTRACY IT TAKES TIME TO CONVINCE PEOPLE. THANKS TO DEMOCRACY MUSLIMS HAVE EEQUAL RIGHTS.MUSLIMS ARE NOT FACING THE PROBLEMS BEING AHEMEDIAS AND OTHER MUSLIM SECTS LIKE PAKISTAN !
PLEASE NOW LET US NOT START TALKING ABOUT SACHAR,RIOTS ETC---

So what is HInduism? I never got a proper definition in my life as a Hindu. Only Varnasram was quoted as Hindu heritage apart from treating everything as God. But Islam opened my eyes by giving proper answers for each and every question a man's instinct will ask. Unlike Hinduism which says every thing is God Islam says everything is God's. Unlike varnasram which divides people in to different grades and castes by their birth which is never in the individual's control, Islam tells every one is from the same parent and so brothers. And God will reward those who do good and punish those who do bad. These things made me to turn to Islam.

I wanted to learn the Hinduism you guys are supporting and propagating. I dont give a damn for whatever you personally incite me.

When you were able to accuse Islam with out proper knowledge and proof for 17 pages why shouldnt i spend some two page to learn your so called savior of Human kind hinduism???

I got it form the world famous translation by Abdullah Yusuff Ali with whihc the English speaking world embraces Islam day by day.

God gives pure sexual partners in after life according to their good work. This is Islamic theory. The term you used 72 virgins could be from CNN or BBC but not from Islamic credentials whihc are Quran and Model life of Prophet Muhammad. Quran talks about sexual partners which is for both men and women. The after life Islam talks about is a world with different natural theories, so Pls dont make parallels with our current world.

Syed,
Does not Allah promise 72 virgins to men ?
What do women get?

Syed,
can you tell me from where you got that translation?

So whihc Islam we are talking about? Where islam discriminated men and women in its After life theory? Quran says
````````
The Believers, men and women, are protectors one of another: they enjoin what is just, and forbid what is evil: they observe regular prayers, practise regular charity, and obey God and His Messenger. On them will God pour His mercy: for God is Exalted in power, Wise.

God hath promised to Believers, men and women, gardens under which rivers flow, to dwell therein, and beautiful mansions in gardens of everlasting bliss. But the greatest bliss is the good pleasure of God: that is the supreme felicity.
(Chapter 9 Verse 71,72)
`````````````

Syed,
First of all,
the Aryan Invasion theory is a myth .
Go and take some modern history lessons.
Which Hindu religious book tells us to follow
the Sati/Caste System/Dowry?
Even if you happen to find one such Hindu religious book can you find one Hindu who will
say that that book is the word of God and should
be followed entirely?

PS:It is not my job to teach you history.

SMRITI MISHRA,
Let me remind you that
Hinduism is the only major religion which has got
female gods and we worship them.
Female gods have the same status as male gods
and sometimes even more.

Hello KK LOL,
Here is a glimpse on Aryan histiry from. You are telling No Hindu God or ideology discriminated women. What about Sati? What about widow bashing? What about DevaDasis? What about child marriage (if the guy died in young age the girl became widow even before she attained puberty)? What about aswamedha yagams? And the highlight what about hindu women wearing Mangalyams(the yellow tag in marriage)? Why men need not wear that. Is it not male Chauvinism? Why hindu women should always wear it and should not remarry any one else even if the guy she married is an impotent? What about Dowry system which rips of women's family but not men's? These are because of Aurangazeb??
As a kindergarten student i'm expecting a historical proof for Muslim rulers(citing Islamic rule or laws) eradicating Buddhist identity. Obviously not from guys like Golwalkar or Hegde. Pls provide me the neutral source as you said.