outlookindia.com | The Absent Liberal

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Liberals dominated the intellectual landscape in the 50s and 60s, but more recently they have become an endangered species -- squeezed out by the identity politics of the left, which holds that caste is and should be the fundamental axis of Indian society, and of the right, with political Islam the real if unacknowledged model for political Hinduism.


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15/D-15 Jan 30, 2006 12:15 AM	Ghulam faruki: You are absolutely right that liberalism has been a very fertile source of progress and humanitarianism. That is why you and Islam decided to have nothing to do with it. Thomas Nile London, United Kingdom PERMALINK \| LIKE (0) \| DISLIKE (0) \| REPORT ABUSE
14/D-16 Jan 29, 2006 12:14 AM	>If the liberal happens to be a Muslim, some folks >would closely follow his posts to find an early >opportunity to label him an "apologist". Shame on you Ghulam for thinking that you get labeled an apologist because you happen to have a Muslim name. People are judged by their behaviour, and on this forum, by their posts. If you fancy yourself as a liberal, I am sorry to say your posts betray that claim. Ajit Tendulkar Seattle, United States PERMALINK \| LIKE (0) \| DISLIKE (0) \| REPORT ABUSE
13/D-20 Jan 28, 2006 12:13 AM	This is a scholarly and very thoughtful article by Ramachandra Guha. It is true that liberals are an endangered species. In Bush's America, "liberal" has become a dirty word. Marxist as well as BJP circles in India would consider liberals as being wooly-eyed and lacking hard-nosed thinking. Even in this forum, epithets such as "pseudo-sec" or "commie" would be freely hurled at anyone advocating a liberal position. If the liberal happens to be a Muslim, some folks would closely follow his posts to find an early opportunity to label him an "apologist". It is a pity because liberalism has throughout history been a fertile ground for hunanitarianism, arts and progress. Ghulam Y Faruki New York, United States PERMALINK \| LIKE (1) \| DISLIKE (0) \| REPORT ABUSE
12/D-21 Apr 11, 2004 12:12 AM	English media is surely the biggest convert missionaries have made. Unaware and many times even caught not listening to the other point of views, Media, over a period of time, has gone dumb, deaf and blind to the inherent dangers of the exploitative nature of the mass conversions and its ill effect on the Indian society as a whole. Media, in its usual charge against Hindus for not being tolerant enough to remain indifferent to the plight of their fellow countrymen lured by money or muscle into Christianity with rest of the Hindu society left to bleed, often argue that despite Islamic invasions and British colonialism, number of converts has not increased proportionately and attribute this phenomenon solely to the tolerant nature of Islamic rulers and noble hearted Christian Missionaries who had only welfare of the Hindu society in mind. Is it as simple as it looks? First, Islamic invasion wasn't as bloodless as it is often cited. It can be easily summarized in the words of American Historian Will Durant "The Mohammadan conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in the history". It was only due to the sacrifices of several well known and unaccounted number of unknowns to maintain and preserve the cultural and spiritual integrity of the Hindu society, it could remain in its present form. Based on several references available from Islamic and non Islamic sources, the forcibly converted people were brought back into the Hindu fold once situations improved. Secondly, the number of Christians in India hasn't gone up as apologists often point out, is an absurdity at its best. Christian missionaries came to India in sixteenth century with the Catholic Portuguese. History is replete with incidents of bloody conflicts and forced conversions. A century later, Protestant Christian nations of Europe came to India but they didn't have any proselytizing mission and in fact, the English East India Company were prohibited from sending out missionaries by a clause in their charter. However, in early nineteenth century missionaries in England started putting up enormous amount of pressure in support of sending Evangelical mission to India. This encountered stiff opposition from several quarters and culminated into two differing schools of thoughts. It can be easily summed up in the words of a tea-dealer Mr. Twinning, "As long as we continue to govern India in the mild, tolerant spirit of Christianity, we may govern it with ease; but if ever the fatal day should arrive, when religious innovation shall set her foot in that country, indignation will spread from one end of the Hindustan to the other, and the arms of fifty millions of people will drive us from that portion of the globe, with as much ease as the sand of the desert is scattered by the wind". Another point of view in support of that policy was by Montgomery. "Christianity had nothing to teach Hinduism, and no missionary ever made a really good Christian convert in India. He was more anxious to save the 30,000 of his country-men in India than to save the souls of all the Hindu by making them Christians at so dreadful a price". Any attack on Hindu interests seldom draws any attention from the media and if it does, is often described as 'complete falsehood' or reporters make it absolutely sure that the words like 'alleged' or 'claimed to' are used even in cases like carnage of minority Hindus in Kashmir. Miss Chandramukhi Sonkar Rampur ( Uttar Pradesh ), India PERMALINK \| LIKE (1) \| DISLIKE (0) \| REPORT ABUSE
11/D-13 Apr 05, 2004 12:11 AM	I am grateful to Mr.Guha for this essay. Not being a scholar of history or sociology, it is useful to have some guidance on how to read - or rather how not to be misled by - the authorities in these fields. I am referring specifically to the use of particular versions of history in current political debates that are polarized along the lines of caste or religion. In this regard, I find particularly valuable the author's stating of a problem I have encountered in public but also more private discourse about for instance, the Godhra tragedy. While all my discussions have involved people who can all agree that as human beings what happened there was brutal, the discussions that follow are often thorny ones wherein the discussants often enagage in what Mr.Guha highlights: "disagreement is increasingly sought to be explained in terms of motivation and ideology, rather than method and evidence." In my professional life as a physician I am used to debates where motivations (financial for example) and ideology are in question, but there is an important and welcome difference in my professionla discussions, which is this: we all agree that what should really be at stake here is evidence and methodology (even if it is explored imprefectly). In discussions about political and historical issues however, it seems to me more common that there is not this agreement, rather the stakes are really about ones' ideology, national 'pride' or lack thereof etc. An excellent tonic, this essay. Vinod Srihari New Haven, USA PERMALINK \| LIKE (0) \| DISLIKE (0) \| REPORT ABUSE
10/D-13 Apr 03, 2004 12:10 AM	Is it not amazing to see this deceitful bright red common Marxist chameleon, gradually changing its colour from the ‘Socialist red’ to the ‘Liberal Pink, while stealthily stalking Hindus in their own country? Carefully watch how this wily Marxist chameleon is attempting to slickly change its political red colour to ‘LIBERAL PINK’ to suit the current anti-Marxist political correctness. And all this liberal stuff spewing from our new born again Liberal is in order to dupe people who are already weary of our very red Marxist Historians and their foot soldiers like our pseudo secular scribes. Even in Canada we can feel the hot air generated by burning of sixteen pages of absolute rubbish by one of our brand new ‘born again liberal’. However, old habit dies hard and that is why Mr. Guha keeps on returning to the Outlook’s obligatory ‘Hindutva bashing theme again and again in his article. So, instead of admitting defeat Mr. Guha has decided in his current article to work on a different angle. Amazingly, after years of defending Marxist historians, our ‘born again pink liberal scribe’ is admitting that the horrible Indian Marxist historians were, indeed, responsible for distorting our history. However, currently as a new liberal champion, Mr. Guha also warns us to be weary of the Hindutva force because it will be twice as bad as the Marxist historians! And Mr. Guha genuinely believes that the suckers are born every two minutes! Good try Mr. Guha. Try again. Raj Toronto, Canada PERMALINK \| LIKE (0) \| DISLIKE (0) \| REPORT ABUSE
9/D-14 Apr 02, 2004 12:09 AM	The best description of today's Hindu would be a paraphrase of the French dictiionnary " Le Petit Larousse"'s description of the leopard: "Le leopard est un mechant animal; qui'on l'attaque, il se defend." The leopard is a savage beast; when attacked it defends itself. Rajendran Kumaran London, UK PERMALINK \| LIKE (0) \| DISLIKE (0) \| REPORT ABUSE
8/D-14 Apr 01, 2004 12:08 AM	Guha wrote this article more than 2 years ago. To think that it arouses so much passion in someone today ought to tickle him no end. The thing about Liberals is that they are neither Tory nor Labor and like Gladstone, rather has-been. Liberal Party was characterized by certain attitudes rather than a precise ideology. The Indian liberals whom Sri Guha admires are not any different. Incidentally, Sri Kumaran, this Ramachandra Guha is allegedly none other than one Ramachandran Guhan. That makes him by way of attitude and ideology, a Mylapore Mama. So you could call him names in good Tamil. But it would appear bad Hindi and bad philosophy go together :) Lakshmi Srinivas Novi, US PERMALINK \| LIKE (0) \| DISLIKE (0) \| REPORT ABUSE
7/D-11 Apr 01, 2004 12:07 AM	Ref. page 7: "Yet their state governments have successfully promoted communal peace, and not one of the party's leaders has yet been indicted for corruption". What a dirty liar the writer is! His both claims are big lies. chortle ., . PERMALINK \| LIKE (0) \| DISLIKE (0) \| REPORT ABUSE
6/D-7 Apr 01, 2004 12:06 AM	Raja Jee, Mere Bhaiya..tune bajaa dee duflee..you are correct about indian economists..but now some of them are doing some good work..and please don't be so angry and upset.. See 'India or Bharat Mata' (being support of RSS, it seems these words would pacify you,please forgive me if you are from south) is so young and fragile..she would need her passionate sons like you thinking, and not getting so angry BumBhola Patna, USA PERMALINK \| LIKE (0) \| DISLIKE (0) \| REPORT ABUSE
5/D-5 Apr 01, 2004 12:05 AM	Guha says: "The economist Vinod Vyasulu once suggested to this writer that of the top hundred members of his profession in India, not one would like to ally himslef with the Bharatiya Janata Party. There are no reputable Sangh parivar economists and, it must be said, no reputable saffron soicologists or anthroplogists either. No social scientist of any achievement or credibility will be seen, dead or alive, with the BJP. The situation with regard to history-writing is only marginally different: perhaps two or three of the best hundred historians might be willing to be labelled as 'saffron'." My response: Good for you, Sangh parivar!!!! When such a near-unanimous coalition of academic fools is against you, it is a very favourable comment on your prospects. Who needs these head-in-the-sand academic clowns? Most of them are simply practitioners-for-pay of a certain industry, whose aim is not truth but their own gain and petty fame. John Kenneth Galbraith once remarked that there was an inverse relationship between the number of good economists a country produced and its economic performance. He remarked that it was no accident that Japan, which had few internationally known economists, had done so much better economically than India, with its hordes of "great" economists. God save India from distinguished economists, Guhaji!!! How wonderful, too, that the Sangh parivar is not burdened with "reputable" anthropologists and sociologists..!! Gee Whizz!!! Yipeeee!!!! Maybe that is why the Sangh is doing so well in winning over Tribals to the Hindutva cause. One Hindutva activist who knows Tribal languages and cultures and can propagandise effectively for Hindutva among tribals is worth all the "reputable" anthropologist and sociologist ninnies the World will ever produce. Keep them with my compliments, Guha. As for historians, a single V S Naipaul is worth infinitely more than shiploads of petty Islamo-fascist hacks like Romila Thapar, finding ever cleverer reasons why Islamic destroyers of Hinduism's cultural heritage were really doing it all for cuddly Nehruite "secular" reasons. I shall worry for the Sangh only when it gets a big academic following. Rajendran Kumaran London, UK PERMALINK \| LIKE (0) \| DISLIKE (0) \| REPORT ABUSE
4/D-4 Apr 01, 2004 12:04 AM	Guha need not be surprised that political Hinduism borrows from political Islam. His perceptor, the fatuous "secular historian" Dharma Kumar, thought she was making a devastating point when she crowed: The Sangh Parivar wants to create an Islamic state - for Hindus. So what if it does? Is that worse than what the Dharma Kumars want so ardently to do, ie, create an Islamic state in India in which Hindus will be crucified? If Dharma Kumar thinks political Islam is so bad, why does she and her "Economic and Political Weekly" pseudo-Marxist mob go all out to idealise and propagate it in India? Hinduism has to fight effectively in this world to survive against deadly enemies like Islam. If Hindus don't learn lessons in seriousness and organisation from Muslims, they will be destroyed in India as surely as they have been in Pakistan and Bangladesh. But though two opposing armies may wear similar uniforms and use similar guns it does't follow that they don't stand for different things. Hinduism is NOT Islam: it is an open minded religion, and can change and evolve. So a Hindu India will be a liberal India. Marx, that truly great man, would, incidentally, spit on the Indians who call themselves his followers. What has promoting Islamo-fascism and its closed medieval outlook got to do with Marxism? What a joke!!!! Rajendran Kumaran London, UK PERMALINK \| LIKE (0) \| DISLIKE (0) \| REPORT ABUSE
3/D-3 Apr 01, 2004 12:03 AM	Dear Guha Gadhdha: Still, don't despair. Perhaaaps the "Liberal" cause in India will be saved by the great intellectual leader of the Congress Paaaarty, Mrs Son-Why Can't-He. With the active, clever support of son Little Raw-Fool, daughter Pranker, Pro-Nawab Mukherjee, Manic Stinker (L)Aiyer, Paki Call Dope Nayar, Pro-Fool Bidwai, Sunil Call-Ninny and - last but by no means least! - that priceless Bihari one-third buffalo, one-third pig and one-third secuuulaaaarh, Lalloooo Yadav. Rajendran Kumaran London, UK PERMALINK \| LIKE (0) \| DISLIKE (0) \| REPORT ABUSE
2/D-2 Apr 01, 2004 12:02 AM	Guhaji Don't be fatuous. Try living in the real world, and not your petty, cosy, England-New England-California-ivory tower. Your feeble world of "scholarly" chums who will "referee" your sweet little articles from which every harsh, uncomfortable truth has been filtered out because it doesn't fit the cheap little academic game. About 40 years of Indian "liberal" buttering up of Islamo-fascism has finally brought its predictable dire results, old academic doodler. Your Nehruite crowd systematically created conflict among the Hindus and encouraged Islamic fascism with all your might in order to have an easy ride in power. The Hindus finally got angry, got their act together and YOU are finally - Thank God! - out. Meanwhile your sweet Islamic pals are utterly out of control and running around blowing the world to bits. No sane person is going to buy your sweet anodyne Isalmo-fascist coddling "academic" theories any longer old boy. Tough!!!!! Rajendran Kumaran London, UK PERMALINK \| LIKE (0) \| DISLIKE (0) \| REPORT ABUSE
1/D-1 Apr 01, 2004 12:01 AM	it is sad to read this boring descriptive article coming from one of the better indian mind. This article lacks rigor and analytics..story is emdedded in the word 'history' does not mean that hiss of the story should be so boring.. in the recent census data only 3% indian can speak english..millions of indian have not even heard of Marx..no gives damn to that 'bum'..who gives damn to 'dumb' Joshi.. the usage of words like 'pink' sounds so cheap.. I don't have time..neither I have inclination to get in the analytics of 'histroy'...understand the 'stri', and there is our history.. BumBhola Patna, USA PERMALINK \| LIKE (0) \| DISLIKE (0) \| REPORT ABUSE

1/D-1 Apr 01, 2004 12:01 AM	it is sad to read this boring descriptive article coming from one of the better indian mind. This article lacks rigor and analytics..story is emdedded in the word 'history' does not mean that hiss of the story should be so boring.. in the recent census data only 3% indian can speak english..millions of indian have not even heard of Marx..no gives damn to that 'bum'..who gives damn to 'dumb' Joshi.. the usage of words like 'pink' sounds so cheap.. I don't have time..neither I have inclination to get in the analytics of 'histroy'...understand the 'stri', and there is our history.. BumBhola Patna, USA PERMALINK \| LIKE (0) \| DISLIKE (0) \| REPORT ABUSE
2/D-2 Apr 01, 2004 12:02 AM	Guhaji Don't be fatuous. Try living in the real world, and not your petty, cosy, England-New England-California-ivory tower. Your feeble world of "scholarly" chums who will "referee" your sweet little articles from which every harsh, uncomfortable truth has been filtered out because it doesn't fit the cheap little academic game. About 40 years of Indian "liberal" buttering up of Islamo-fascism has finally brought its predictable dire results, old academic doodler. Your Nehruite crowd systematically created conflict among the Hindus and encouraged Islamic fascism with all your might in order to have an easy ride in power. The Hindus finally got angry, got their act together and YOU are finally - Thank God! - out. Meanwhile your sweet Islamic pals are utterly out of control and running around blowing the world to bits. No sane person is going to buy your sweet anodyne Isalmo-fascist coddling "academic" theories any longer old boy. Tough!!!!! Rajendran Kumaran London, UK PERMALINK \| LIKE (0) \| DISLIKE (0) \| REPORT ABUSE
3/D-3 Apr 01, 2004 12:03 AM	Dear Guha Gadhdha: Still, don't despair. Perhaaaps the "Liberal" cause in India will be saved by the great intellectual leader of the Congress Paaaarty, Mrs Son-Why Can't-He. With the active, clever support of son Little Raw-Fool, daughter Pranker, Pro-Nawab Mukherjee, Manic Stinker (L)Aiyer, Paki Call Dope Nayar, Pro-Fool Bidwai, Sunil Call-Ninny and - last but by no means least! - that priceless Bihari one-third buffalo, one-third pig and one-third secuuulaaaarh, Lalloooo Yadav. Rajendran Kumaran London, UK PERMALINK \| LIKE (0) \| DISLIKE (0) \| REPORT ABUSE
4/D-4 Apr 01, 2004 12:04 AM	Guha need not be surprised that political Hinduism borrows from political Islam. His perceptor, the fatuous "secular historian" Dharma Kumar, thought she was making a devastating point when she crowed: The Sangh Parivar wants to create an Islamic state - for Hindus. So what if it does? Is that worse than what the Dharma Kumars want so ardently to do, ie, create an Islamic state in India in which Hindus will be crucified? If Dharma Kumar thinks political Islam is so bad, why does she and her "Economic and Political Weekly" pseudo-Marxist mob go all out to idealise and propagate it in India? Hinduism has to fight effectively in this world to survive against deadly enemies like Islam. If Hindus don't learn lessons in seriousness and organisation from Muslims, they will be destroyed in India as surely as they have been in Pakistan and Bangladesh. But though two opposing armies may wear similar uniforms and use similar guns it does't follow that they don't stand for different things. Hinduism is NOT Islam: it is an open minded religion, and can change and evolve. So a Hindu India will be a liberal India. Marx, that truly great man, would, incidentally, spit on the Indians who call themselves his followers. What has promoting Islamo-fascism and its closed medieval outlook got to do with Marxism? What a joke!!!! Rajendran Kumaran London, UK PERMALINK \| LIKE (0) \| DISLIKE (0) \| REPORT ABUSE
5/D-5 Apr 01, 2004 12:05 AM	Guha says: "The economist Vinod Vyasulu once suggested to this writer that of the top hundred members of his profession in India, not one would like to ally himslef with the Bharatiya Janata Party. There are no reputable Sangh parivar economists and, it must be said, no reputable saffron soicologists or anthroplogists either. No social scientist of any achievement or credibility will be seen, dead or alive, with the BJP. The situation with regard to history-writing is only marginally different: perhaps two or three of the best hundred historians might be willing to be labelled as 'saffron'." My response: Good for you, Sangh parivar!!!! When such a near-unanimous coalition of academic fools is against you, it is a very favourable comment on your prospects. Who needs these head-in-the-sand academic clowns? Most of them are simply practitioners-for-pay of a certain industry, whose aim is not truth but their own gain and petty fame. John Kenneth Galbraith once remarked that there was an inverse relationship between the number of good economists a country produced and its economic performance. He remarked that it was no accident that Japan, which had few internationally known economists, had done so much better economically than India, with its hordes of "great" economists. God save India from distinguished economists, Guhaji!!! How wonderful, too, that the Sangh parivar is not burdened with "reputable" anthropologists and sociologists..!! Gee Whizz!!! Yipeeee!!!! Maybe that is why the Sangh is doing so well in winning over Tribals to the Hindutva cause. One Hindutva activist who knows Tribal languages and cultures and can propagandise effectively for Hindutva among tribals is worth all the "reputable" anthropologist and sociologist ninnies the World will ever produce. Keep them with my compliments, Guha. As for historians, a single V S Naipaul is worth infinitely more than shiploads of petty Islamo-fascist hacks like Romila Thapar, finding ever cleverer reasons why Islamic destroyers of Hinduism's cultural heritage were really doing it all for cuddly Nehruite "secular" reasons. I shall worry for the Sangh only when it gets a big academic following. Rajendran Kumaran London, UK PERMALINK \| LIKE (0) \| DISLIKE (0) \| REPORT ABUSE
6/D-7 Apr 01, 2004 12:06 AM	Raja Jee, Mere Bhaiya..tune bajaa dee duflee..you are correct about indian economists..but now some of them are doing some good work..and please don't be so angry and upset.. See 'India or Bharat Mata' (being support of RSS, it seems these words would pacify you,please forgive me if you are from south) is so young and fragile..she would need her passionate sons like you thinking, and not getting so angry BumBhola Patna, USA PERMALINK \| LIKE (0) \| DISLIKE (0) \| REPORT ABUSE
7/D-11 Apr 01, 2004 12:07 AM	Ref. page 7: "Yet their state governments have successfully promoted communal peace, and not one of the party's leaders has yet been indicted for corruption". What a dirty liar the writer is! His both claims are big lies. chortle ., . PERMALINK \| LIKE (0) \| DISLIKE (0) \| REPORT ABUSE
8/D-14 Apr 01, 2004 12:08 AM	Guha wrote this article more than 2 years ago. To think that it arouses so much passion in someone today ought to tickle him no end. The thing about Liberals is that they are neither Tory nor Labor and like Gladstone, rather has-been. Liberal Party was characterized by certain attitudes rather than a precise ideology. The Indian liberals whom Sri Guha admires are not any different. Incidentally, Sri Kumaran, this Ramachandra Guha is allegedly none other than one Ramachandran Guhan. That makes him by way of attitude and ideology, a Mylapore Mama. So you could call him names in good Tamil. But it would appear bad Hindi and bad philosophy go together :) Lakshmi Srinivas Novi, US PERMALINK \| LIKE (0) \| DISLIKE (0) \| REPORT ABUSE
9/D-14 Apr 02, 2004 12:09 AM	The best description of today's Hindu would be a paraphrase of the French dictiionnary " Le Petit Larousse"'s description of the leopard: "Le leopard est un mechant animal; qui'on l'attaque, il se defend." The leopard is a savage beast; when attacked it defends itself. Rajendran Kumaran London, UK PERMALINK \| LIKE (0) \| DISLIKE (0) \| REPORT ABUSE
10/D-13 Apr 03, 2004 12:10 AM	Is it not amazing to see this deceitful bright red common Marxist chameleon, gradually changing its colour from the ‘Socialist red’ to the ‘Liberal Pink, while stealthily stalking Hindus in their own country? Carefully watch how this wily Marxist chameleon is attempting to slickly change its political red colour to ‘LIBERAL PINK’ to suit the current anti-Marxist political correctness. And all this liberal stuff spewing from our new born again Liberal is in order to dupe people who are already weary of our very red Marxist Historians and their foot soldiers like our pseudo secular scribes. Even in Canada we can feel the hot air generated by burning of sixteen pages of absolute rubbish by one of our brand new ‘born again liberal’. However, old habit dies hard and that is why Mr. Guha keeps on returning to the Outlook’s obligatory ‘Hindutva bashing theme again and again in his article. So, instead of admitting defeat Mr. Guha has decided in his current article to work on a different angle. Amazingly, after years of defending Marxist historians, our ‘born again pink liberal scribe’ is admitting that the horrible Indian Marxist historians were, indeed, responsible for distorting our history. However, currently as a new liberal champion, Mr. Guha also warns us to be weary of the Hindutva force because it will be twice as bad as the Marxist historians! And Mr. Guha genuinely believes that the suckers are born every two minutes! Good try Mr. Guha. Try again. Raj Toronto, Canada PERMALINK \| LIKE (0) \| DISLIKE (0) \| REPORT ABUSE
11/D-13 Apr 05, 2004 12:11 AM	I am grateful to Mr.Guha for this essay. Not being a scholar of history or sociology, it is useful to have some guidance on how to read - or rather how not to be misled by - the authorities in these fields. I am referring specifically to the use of particular versions of history in current political debates that are polarized along the lines of caste or religion. In this regard, I find particularly valuable the author's stating of a problem I have encountered in public but also more private discourse about for instance, the Godhra tragedy. While all my discussions have involved people who can all agree that as human beings what happened there was brutal, the discussions that follow are often thorny ones wherein the discussants often enagage in what Mr.Guha highlights: "disagreement is increasingly sought to be explained in terms of motivation and ideology, rather than method and evidence." In my professional life as a physician I am used to debates where motivations (financial for example) and ideology are in question, but there is an important and welcome difference in my professionla discussions, which is this: we all agree that what should really be at stake here is evidence and methodology (even if it is explored imprefectly). In discussions about political and historical issues however, it seems to me more common that there is not this agreement, rather the stakes are really about ones' ideology, national 'pride' or lack thereof etc. An excellent tonic, this essay. Vinod Srihari New Haven, USA PERMALINK \| LIKE (0) \| DISLIKE (0) \| REPORT ABUSE
12/D-21 Apr 11, 2004 12:12 AM	English media is surely the biggest convert missionaries have made. Unaware and many times even caught not listening to the other point of views, Media, over a period of time, has gone dumb, deaf and blind to the inherent dangers of the exploitative nature of the mass conversions and its ill effect on the Indian society as a whole. Media, in its usual charge against Hindus for not being tolerant enough to remain indifferent to the plight of their fellow countrymen lured by money or muscle into Christianity with rest of the Hindu society left to bleed, often argue that despite Islamic invasions and British colonialism, number of converts has not increased proportionately and attribute this phenomenon solely to the tolerant nature of Islamic rulers and noble hearted Christian Missionaries who had only welfare of the Hindu society in mind. Is it as simple as it looks? First, Islamic invasion wasn't as bloodless as it is often cited. It can be easily summarized in the words of American Historian Will Durant "The Mohammadan conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in the history". It was only due to the sacrifices of several well known and unaccounted number of unknowns to maintain and preserve the cultural and spiritual integrity of the Hindu society, it could remain in its present form. Based on several references available from Islamic and non Islamic sources, the forcibly converted people were brought back into the Hindu fold once situations improved. Secondly, the number of Christians in India hasn't gone up as apologists often point out, is an absurdity at its best. Christian missionaries came to India in sixteenth century with the Catholic Portuguese. History is replete with incidents of bloody conflicts and forced conversions. A century later, Protestant Christian nations of Europe came to India but they didn't have any proselytizing mission and in fact, the English East India Company were prohibited from sending out missionaries by a clause in their charter. However, in early nineteenth century missionaries in England started putting up enormous amount of pressure in support of sending Evangelical mission to India. This encountered stiff opposition from several quarters and culminated into two differing schools of thoughts. It can be easily summed up in the words of a tea-dealer Mr. Twinning, "As long as we continue to govern India in the mild, tolerant spirit of Christianity, we may govern it with ease; but if ever the fatal day should arrive, when religious innovation shall set her foot in that country, indignation will spread from one end of the Hindustan to the other, and the arms of fifty millions of people will drive us from that portion of the globe, with as much ease as the sand of the desert is scattered by the wind". Another point of view in support of that policy was by Montgomery. "Christianity had nothing to teach Hinduism, and no missionary ever made a really good Christian convert in India. He was more anxious to save the 30,000 of his country-men in India than to save the souls of all the Hindu by making them Christians at so dreadful a price". Any attack on Hindu interests seldom draws any attention from the media and if it does, is often described as 'complete falsehood' or reporters make it absolutely sure that the words like 'alleged' or 'claimed to' are used even in cases like carnage of minority Hindus in Kashmir. Miss Chandramukhi Sonkar Rampur ( Uttar Pradesh ), India PERMALINK \| LIKE (1) \| DISLIKE (0) \| REPORT ABUSE
13/D-20 Jan 28, 2006 12:13 AM	This is a scholarly and very thoughtful article by Ramachandra Guha. It is true that liberals are an endangered species. In Bush's America, "liberal" has become a dirty word. Marxist as well as BJP circles in India would consider liberals as being wooly-eyed and lacking hard-nosed thinking. Even in this forum, epithets such as "pseudo-sec" or "commie" would be freely hurled at anyone advocating a liberal position. If the liberal happens to be a Muslim, some folks would closely follow his posts to find an early opportunity to label him an "apologist". It is a pity because liberalism has throughout history been a fertile ground for hunanitarianism, arts and progress. Ghulam Y Faruki New York, United States PERMALINK \| LIKE (1) \| DISLIKE (0) \| REPORT ABUSE
14/D-16 Jan 29, 2006 12:14 AM	>If the liberal happens to be a Muslim, some folks >would closely follow his posts to find an early >opportunity to label him an "apologist". Shame on you Ghulam for thinking that you get labeled an apologist because you happen to have a Muslim name. People are judged by their behaviour, and on this forum, by their posts. If you fancy yourself as a liberal, I am sorry to say your posts betray that claim. Ajit Tendulkar Seattle, United States PERMALINK \| LIKE (0) \| DISLIKE (0) \| REPORT ABUSE
15/D-15 Jan 30, 2006 12:15 AM	Ghulam faruki: You are absolutely right that liberalism has been a very fertile source of progress and humanitarianism. That is why you and Islam decided to have nothing to do with it. Thomas Nile London, United Kingdom PERMALINK \| LIKE (0) \| DISLIKE (0) \| REPORT ABUSE


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Comments Policy

We at Outlookindia.com welcome feedback and your comments, including scathing criticism

But:

1. Scathing, passionate, even angry critiques are welcome, but please do not indulge in abuse and invective. Our Primary concern is to keep the debate civil. We urge our users to try and express their disagreements without being disagreeable. Personal attacks are not welcome. No ad hominem please.

2. Please do not post the same message again and again in the same or different threads

3. Please keep your responses confined to the subject matter of the article you are responding to. Please note that our comments section is not a general free-for-all but for feedback to articles/blogs posted on the site

4. Our endeavour is to keep these forums unmoderated and unexpurgated. But if any of the above three conditions are violated, we reserve the right to delete any comment that we deem objectionable and also to withdraw posting privileges from the abuser. Please also note that hate-speech is punishable by law and in extreme circumstances, we may be forced to take legal action by tracing the IP addresses of the poster.

5. If someone is being abusive or personal, or generally being a troll or a flame-baiter, please do not descend to their level. The best response to such posters is to ignore them and send us a message at Mail AT outlookindia DOT com with the subject header COMPLAINT

6. Please do not copy and paste copyrighted material. If you do think that an article elsewhere has relevance to the point you wish to make, please only quote what is considered fair-use and provide a link to the article under question.

7. There is no particular outlookindia.com line on any subject. The views expressed in our opinion section are those of the author concerned and not that of all of outlookindia.com or all its authors.

8. Please also note that you are solely responsible for the comments posted by you on the site. The comments could be deleted or edited entirely at our discretion if we find them objectionable. However, the mere fact of their existence on our site does not mean that we necessarily approve of their contents. In short, the onus of responsibility for the comments remains solely with the authors thereof. Outlookindia.com or any of its group publications, may, however, retains the right to publish any of these comments, with or without editing, in any medium whatsoever. It is therefore in your own interest to be careful before posting.

9.Outlookindia.com is not responsible in any manner whatsoever for how any search engine -- such as Google, Bing etc -- caches or displays these comments. Please note that you are solely responsible for posting these comments and it is a privilege being granted to our registered users which can be withdrawn in case of abuse. To reiterate:

a. Comments once posted can only be deleted at the discretion of outlookindia.com
b. The comments reflect the views of the authors and not of outlookindia.com
c. outlookindia.com is not responsible in any manner whatsoever for the way search engines cache or display these comments
d. Please therefore take due caution before you post any comments as your words could potentially be used against you

10. We have an online thread for our comments policy:
http://blog.outlookindia.com/default.aspx?ddm=10&pid=1669&eid=5

You are welcome to post your suggestions here or in case you have a specific issue, to directly email us at Mail AT outlookindia DOT com with the subject header COMPLAINT