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1/D-41
Feb 01, 2012
08:38 AM

" But dealing with the reality -- the truth -- of Kashmir and its various facets does require at least some commonsense and willingness to engage. "

Very true. Preventing a film documentary from being seen is the wrong thing to do. State governments need to be tough with these ABVP goons. They present a growing threat to our liberties.

Anwaar
Dallas, United States
2/D-110
Feb 01, 2012
07:54 PM
Comment removed for violation of Website Policy
Vivek
Hyderabad, India
3/D-126
Feb 01, 2012
08:52 PM

The same bigot who comments here on ABVP said not a thing about Salman Rushdie being prevented from attending the Jaipur Literary Festival less than a couple of weeks ago.

Alakshyendra
Hyderabad, India
4/D-128
Feb 01, 2012
09:00 PM

 This is absolutely wrong on part of media to project this as a case of right to expression. The documentary is propaganda trash which doesn't take an unbiased view and Kashmiri Pundit issue isn't mentioned.

America censors the Al Qaueda material. Freedom of expression doesn't mean that Doordarshan starts showing Jehadi material. 

The worst part of the movie is that it is made by a Kashmiri Pundit. 

jackass
lol, india
5/D-134
Feb 01, 2012
11:57 PM

The documentary is propaganda trash which doesn't take an unbiased view 

That's what they say about most thought they want to censor

and Kashmiri Pundit issue isn't mentioned.

So point that out, hook it for a six. I believe it is mentioned, but makes light of their sufferings.

America censors the Al Qaueda material. Freedom of expression doesn't mean that Doordarshan starts showing Jehadi material.

We should not try to become like America. After all, it is American journalists who expose Guantanamo and if American army were killing people in a state, the media there would be talking about it too. Or should be talking about it. That they don't is their flaw, not worth emulating.

The worst part of the movie is that it is made by a Kashmiri Pundit.

Many jews say similar things that Howard Zinn said or Chomsky says.

Indian army is a responsible army. It will not wither away if this film shows its lapses. The army gets enough platforms to put forward its point of view and nobody does, or should, stop it from doing so.

Ajit Tendulkar
Seattle, United States
6/D-6
Feb 02, 2012
01:23 AM

 <<That's what they say about most thought they want to censor>>

Last time I heard those golden words from Hilter's gay lover about the Holocaust number and the alleged Jewish soaps. 

<<We should not try to become like America.>>

Yes, the way they forced youtube to remove the Anwar Al-Awlaki videos, never emulate the Yanks. 

<<it is American journalists who expose Guantanamo and if American army were killing people in a state>>

I guess it was again American journalists who told the world about the mass graves in India. 

<<Many jews say similar things that Howard Zinn said or Chomsky says.>>

Last time Chomsky wasn't allowed in Israel. Should India do the same to Kak, Arundhati Roy and Ved Bhasin?

<<Indian army is a responsible army. It will not wither away if this film shows its lapses>>

It still hurts some Indians if some nutjob watches a propaganda movie and blows himself to kill as many Indian army oppressors.

What part of movie tells the story of Kashmiri Pundits. The movie starts in 2004 and hardly shows anything about the KP living in refugee camps. Or their properties taken over by filthy Kashmiri Muslims, either forcible or by paying peanuts. Or Kashmir emulating its father country Pakistan to become pure by destroying all the minorities. 

By your standard, Indian army should make a movie about its good work and starts showing them in Indian universities. Fight propaganda with propaganda in your own country. 

jackass
lol, india
7/D-8
Feb 02, 2012
01:55 AM

Regarding ABVP, our condemnation should apply to all such fascist and violent  fringe groups irrespective of whether they are Hinutva or Islamist fringe groups.

Anwaar
Dallas, United States
8/D-9
Feb 02, 2012
02:11 AM

Chomsky and Zinn are US residents and say plenty about US foreign policy and US military. Both go overboard, but the US doesn't drive them out. My reference to what they say about Jews was in reference to the comment about Kak being a Pandit. My point is just that "banning" even propaganda will be counterproductive. It gives it more attention and makes it seem as if that's something worth suppressing. Defeat the ideas you don't like, not ban them. And Indian army does have enough propagandists, why even some journalists of left leaning publications, if we go by what the critics say.

Ajit Tendulkar
Seattle, United States
9/D-20
Feb 02, 2012
02:57 AM

Kak goes too far to sympathise with a struggle that is not progressive and enlightened. It is just anti-India or the denial of the idea of India as a democratic, plural, secular country. There's nothing in the movement itself that is intrinsically admirable and worthy of support, like the anti-colonial, anti-apartheid or anti-totaliatarian causes of the last century.

Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
10/D-34
Feb 02, 2012
07:41 AM

>> Regarding ABVP, our condemnation should apply to all such fascist and violent fringe groups irrespective of whether they are Hinutva or Islamist fringe groups.

And to "secular" groups that hide behind the Salwaar kameez of Islamist groups and facilitate bans and censorship.

Whats InAName
San Francisco, United States
11/D-35
Feb 02, 2012
08:32 AM
Comment removed for violation of Website Policy
Ramki
Delhi, India
12/D-39
Feb 02, 2012
08:53 AM

The government of India should strongly consider enacting a constitutional amendment that 1) Bans any kind of work of art/media et al that challenges the territorial integrity of the nation 2) Imposes heavy financial penalties on those who support secessionist movements in India.

Freedom of expression cannot be unlimited. We cannot compare ourself with USA or Western europe because - we (india) are still underdeveloped. USA has biggest millitary power in world and even though USA allows freedom for its citizens to speak for secession, in practice, US Millitary might means that not even an inch of US territory can ever secede.

Same istrue of rest of western world. Folks, why do you think NATO is still there even 20 years after cold war ended? People can talk about Scotland seceding from UK or Tasmania seceding from Australia but these countries are all under umbrella of NATO which means that effectively, secession can never happen.

But India is not like that. we dont have umbrella cover of NATO, our millitary might is much less. Also, secessionist movements in India are often funded and encouraged by our neighbours.

So there is no point in allowing secessionist talk in the name of freedom of speech. Those asking for this, remember that only as long as India remains united and follows constitution, you can enjoy all this freedoms guaranteed in constitution. And the price paid for these freedoms is borne by our hardworking jawans and BSF soldiers who face the wrath of millitants of kashmir and naxals in chattisgarh.

If India allows unlimited freedom of expression, we will become another Somalia and Afghanistan . do you folks really want that? Maybe you left liberals may have passport of another nation so would simply slip out of India,  but ordinary Indian aam admis like us dont want this,since we have no choice but to stick to the country till end.

So to conclude - TO HELL WITH FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION THAT 
THREATENS INTEGRITY OF OUR NATION.

Ramki
Delhi, India
13/D-40
Feb 02, 2012
09:18 AM

<< Defeat the ideas you don't like, not ban them.>>

I am not for banning the movie. My problem was the propaganda movie being shown in an Indian University. What is the need to show such a movie in a University. Those who want to watch it can watch it but to show an anti India movie in a University doesn't make sense. 

My reference US citizen Chomsky was to show that every country works for objectives. It is not only Israel, the best unintellectual apologist of Islam, Zakir Naik is not allowed in USA or Britain, Turks denial Armenian massacre as genocide is an official policy. 

If India allows showing propaganda in Indian Universities in the name of some intellectual debate, do you expect a 20 something person to counter these Pakistanis in disguise. Nationalism is already in deficit in India and more of this type of propaganda would ensure more people cheering for attacks on Indian army in Indian. 

jackass
lol, india
14/D-106
Feb 02, 2012
08:30 PM

Ramki, very acute observation about the difference between separatism in countries like the UK, and India. The western countries have the security of NATO to live under, so they can be a little blase about things like Scotland or Quebec. Even if these places become 'independent', they will still be very much in the Western/American/NATO sphere and umbrella. India does not possess that luxury or comfort.

Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
15/D-48
Feb 03, 2012
07:05 AM

 "People can talk about Scotland seceding from UK or Tasmania seceding from Australia but these countries are all under umbrella of NATO which means that effectively, secession can never happen." - Ramki Post # 12

and 

"The western countries have the security of NATO to live under, so they can be a little blase about things like Scotland or Quebec" - Varun Post # 14

The analogy made in the above posts is invalid. It is not a question of military oversight, or for that matter "secession" either, as regards Kashmir.

The crux of the matter is the Art 370 in the Indian constitution. Nothing like that exists in the political firmament of any other nation-state in todays world. No Indian citizen say from Karnataka or Assam or Punjab can buy a house or some other property in Srinagar and settle down for the rest of his life there.

It is the question of proper "integration of Kashmir" with the rest of the Indian Union that hangs in the balance due to Art 370. The concept of "secessation" does not apply here.

To India's great fortune the tide has been turning in India's favour for a number of years now in the international power play. Gaddafi sent his son two years ago to lecture India to concede Kashmir as a buffer state between Pakistan and India while no mention was made of POK. And where are they now? The CIA is exposing one by one the so-called leaders for "Azad Kashmir" as blatant ISI implants in the Islamic forces in the Valley.

The issue is that of inept handling of the situation in Kashmir by the Indian politicians ruling in Delhi. They are not willing to make use of the favourable climate for India in the international world for integrating Kashmir with the rest of the nation. No one in the western world now supports Pakistan's claims  for Kashmir. In fact, it may be that the western world is working for the break up of Balochistan from Pakistan as it happened for East Pakistan..  

Pinaki S Ray
Adelaide, Australia
16/D-146
Feb 03, 2012
10:18 PM

A freedom fight that discriminates on the basis of religion isn't worth being called a freedom fight. The Kashmiri freedom struggle is one such movement, where Muslims made Hindus extinct from the valley and used extremely violent methods to achieve their objectives. The Indian Army's response -- when compared to other similar responses to movements in Chechnya, Balochistan, or the Turkish response to Kurds -- has been mild, to say the least. Entire cities and towns have been burnt down in Chechnya, Balochistan, and Turkey. Key leaders have been kidnapped and bumped off in fake encounters. In comparison, the Hurriyat leaders are provided security by the J&K police. So for Kashmiri propagandists like Sanjay Kak to claim that they've been gagged because their propaganda piece was not allowed to be screened is taking things a bit too far. They should thank their stars that they're still alive to whine. Were this Pakistan, they would have met Syed Saleem Shahzad's (if some of you do not know who he was, please google him up) fate.

Alakshyendra
Hyderabad, India
17/D-20
Feb 04, 2012
08:00 AM

What is  Kashmir's freedom movement anyway except a simple extension of the theory of pakistan? One that firmly believes that Muslims will not or can not live with any other group of people. If Sanjay kak had no axe to grind, simple professional ethics would demand that  he cover the nature of this demand for aazadi as Islamic separatism and their methods as terrorism , even if he had no thought for total ethnic cleansing of Kashmiri Hindu's from the valley at the hands of muslims.  At best he can be described as a useful idiot. Actually his film should be seen by more people and this is your key to understand his propoganda documentary :  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBcPkbtqSbQ&feature=related 

Ashutosh Kaul
Toronto, Canada
18/D-41
Feb 05, 2012
10:57 AM

Pinaki Ray >> No Indian citizen say from Karnataka or Assam or Punjab can buy a house or some other property in Srinagar and settle down for the rest of his life there

I agree wholly. Article 370 is an illicit and untenable provision that constitutionally puts one small segment of Indian population at an advantage over others.

See this. Say Mr Anwaar resides in Kashmir Valley and earns lot of money. He can buy property in Srinagar. He can also buy property in Delhi.

And say Mr Ramki resides in Delhi. He can buy property in Delhi but cannot buy in Srinagar. Is this not gross discrimination? It goes against the very spirit of constitution. Did Nehru conduct any referendum before inserting this provision ? No.

So we have the most shocking situation where lakhs of Kashmiri Muslims migrate to big cities outside valley, settle down, buy property ... even as non Kashmiris are not allowed the same. Funnily UPA Govt is doing everything, opening our property, equity markets, our retail industry to Foreigners. But what about the discrimination against fellow Indians that existsthrough article 370? So 99% of Indians are not allowed to settle down in one territory by law,just to please less than 1% of INdians. Not to speak of the way these less than 1% indians chased their own neighbours who do not follow their faith.This is also a kind of apartheid. Yes, Article 370 is a kind of apartheid only.

Ramki
Delhi, India
19/D-42
Feb 05, 2012
11:07 AM

Kaul >> What is Kashmir's freedom movement anyway except a simple extension of the theory of pakistan?

Rightly said. Kashmiris enjoy all kinds of freedom under our constitution,which actually discriminates non kashmiris only through Article 370. The only thing kashmiris cannot have is Sharia Law.India is a secular state and cannot become a theocratic state like Pakistan. This makes a small set of Kashmiris unhappy, since they want to live in a theocratic state and enjoy life like in Iran, Afghanistan and Pakistan. The whole kashmir secession movement is just about it.The distinction btw those  who want Kashmir to be independent and those who want to merge with Pakistan is marginal. Even if kashmir becomes independent , it will abandon secularism and adopt theocracy, since the millitants want there. Minorities will have second class status like Pak but one advantage is Kashmiris have already chased off the Pandits so they have less problems on this front.

Ramki
Delhi, India
20/D-44
Feb 05, 2012
11:13 AM

Varun >> Even if these places become 'independent', they will still be very much in the Western/American/NATO sphere and umbrella

Varun, there is actually another aspect to whole thing.Quebec for example always had a distinct identity from rest of Canada. But if referendum is held, majority of Quebec folks would not want separation. Why? Simple - so much dependancy isthere. Millions of Quebec folks work in other states, they buy property and other assets outside quebec. Likewise,millions in outside states live, work and run business in Quebec. Canada is a welfare state and quebec folks also want to enjoy the state welfare likeothers.Now if there is separation, it will open pandora's box - How will those quebec residents working outside continue to do so? Will they need passport andwork permit? Then any new country creation means huge costs - need everything from army to customs to border patrol to new parliament, who will foot the bill?

People in developed nations all understand this, that is why no developed nation witnesses secession even if there is freedom to say "Quebec should be divided". Also, no outside country helps to train millitants to split quebec from canada or scotland from UK. THis is not the case with Kashmir/India. So, there cant be any way we allow people to preach and propagate secession in name of freedom of expression.

Ramki
Delhi, India
21/D-46
Feb 05, 2012
11:21 AM

Let us assume hypothetically that we agree to separate Kashmir,just to please the liberal leftists like Arundathi Roy and company. Have you examined the practical problems it would pose?

1. NHPC, a Govt of India PSU - which was created out of Indian taxpayer money (99.5% of tax paid by Indians is made by non kashmiris) has invested so  much money in Kashmir, to build dams, to generate electricity. Now if kashmir wants to separate, how will they pay back to Indian public? Do kashmiris even have any money to pay/return the money?

2. J&K Bank - A Bank owned by State govt of J&K , is listed in stock markets- Majority of deposits made in this bank are made by non kashmiris. They have branches in every big cities.Now Kashmir govt borrows lot from this bank to run their operations. If Kashmir goes separate, how will the show go on?

3. What about the many lakh kashmiri residents who have settled outside in Big Indian cities... will they have to get new passport once kashmir is separated? Will they be deported back to valley?

Fact is, there is no economic rationale for Kashmir secession talk. The one and only reason why some kashmiris want separate nation is because they hate secularism want to live in a Islamic theocracy. Secular India should never allow this. Unless we want to also become a theocracy !!!

Ramki
Delhi, India
22/D-49
Feb 06, 2012
03:27 PM

Some Indians, as usual, are getting their knickers in a twist because of a single documentary movie. What's the point of a nation that is so deeply insecure about its existence?

What the region of J&K needs is simple .. a district-wise plebiscite to determine whether the majority wants to secede or stay with India. In fact, India needs to conduct such referendums in other disputed regions as well and cure itself of its chronic birth pangs.

Pankaj Vaishnavi
London, United Kingdom
23/D-80
Feb 06, 2012
08:07 PM

Pankaj,

If one were to ask you in a referendum, we know what your answer would be, given your opinions and the fact that you've already given up living here (not that it is bad), but the 1.2 billion Indians (with some exceptions) who live in this country are neither in need of a plebiscite nor have the patience to hold one for those who don't feel they belong here. People, in fact are free to migrate to whichever land they feel comes closest to their expections. I'm sure they wouldn't mind giving up their homeland if they manage to find their paradise, which I'd assume lies just across the Radcliffe line.

Alakshyendra
Hyderabad, India
24/D-96
Feb 06, 2012
10:18 PM

@ Pankaj Vaishnavi

The last time we tried that bright idea it resulted in millions of dead people and refugees on either side of the Punjab, four wars and hatred thats lasted 60 years. You dont get rid of a headache by getting rid of the head.

akshay
Ludhiana, India
6/D-77
Feb 07, 2012
02:16 PM

The Kashmiri Muslims are so well fed,well clothed and well housed,using Hindu tax payer's money.Still they don't stand up and fight for the return of Kashmiri Pandits.Compare a photograph of the poverty stricken Hindus of Orissa(Odisha) with that of a common Kashmiri Muslim as to how in the name of secularism the Sonia-Manmohan gang ignore the Hindu poor and limitlessly feed the Kashmiri Muslims.When,Ghulam Nabi Azad was the CM,Manmohan Singh sanctioned a mammoth amount of 24,000 crores for such a small population.What happened to that money?Who is enjoying that?During the same period when the Orissa CM requested for special sanctions for his state,this servant of Sonia Gandhi,Manmohan Singh, granted a paltry amount of 800 crores and loftily said money does not grow on trees! Kashmiri Muslims are so lucky that our country is in the hands of traitors like the Congress party.If a referrundum is held today,Kashmiri Muslims will surely opt for India and not Pakistan.

S.S.Nagaraj
Bangalore, India
26/D-136
Feb 13, 2012
06:58 PM

Akshay:

 "The last time we tried that bright idea it resulted in millions of dead people..."

The last time we tried that idea, we failed in properly executing it. India was a nascent state, with an under-developed state machinery to enforce law and order necessary for large-scale population transfers.

Besides, a plebescite in J&K is not even analogous to India's partition because no Indian owns (or can own) land there - so there won't be any population transfer. The state has always been an adjunct part of the Indian subcontinent, geographically remote and culturally different and the entire population of the state is around 4 million odd. Most Indians won't even know it if it actually happened.

Pankaj Vaishnavi
London, United Kingdom
27/D-24
Mar 03, 2012
05:14 AM

"The state has always been an adjunct part of the Indian subcontinent, geographically remote and culturally different and the entire population of the state is around 4 million odd. Most Indians won't even know it if it actually happened."

  There's nothing all that unique about Kashmir, except in the minds of the rabid separatists. Conceding the area would be a highly regressive and dangerous move, because it would strengthen the hands of the Islamists, the Pakistani military and Al-Qaeda. And would embolden them in their goal of spreading Islamism.

Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
28/D-98
Jun 07, 2012
07:18 PM

Varun Shekhar:

"There's nothing all that unique about Kashmir, except in the minds of the rabid separatists."

Except that those rabid separatists are in an overwhelming majority in the state. As far as the distinctiveness of Kashmir goes, it is in evidence in every single aspect of Kashmiri culture .. in cuisine, in language, in religion and even in its climate. One has to be blind, deaf and incredibly dumb to think otherwise.

Pankaj Vaishnavi
London, United Kingdom
29/D-108
Jun 07, 2012
07:56 PM

>> "As far as the distinctiveness of Kashmir goes, it is in evidence in every single aspect of Kashmiri culture .. in

...... cuisine, in language, in religion and even in its climate. " - Pankaj

In case of cuisine and language, every state is distinct. wrt climate, we will have a decently wide grouping. That leaves us with religion - and that is the root cause of the Kashmir problem.

The Irreverent Indian
Online, India
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