Having said all the above. No amount of law will help to eradicate corruption. we have enough laws to catch the thief. The problem is with we guys. You think that the officers for the new jan Lokpal will come from germany, we will have our own brothers there, we can be purchased at a cost. that corruption is in our DNA, in our chromosomes, Govt did not tell to bribe a doctor, we want to kill the girl child in the womb, hence bribe him. We want to jump signal, cant wait to go to court, bribe the traffice police, we cant wait three days to collect the certificate, bribe the clerk, get it today.
Unless we change, teach kids some blooddy good morals, teach kids that Govt Job is not ATM, teach kids that over consumerism is not indian way of life, It may take time, may be generation.
Yes it is. I said it will not be eradicated in our life time...
"Our life time"..May be your life time..I guess it is practical to get it eradicated in about 10 years if it is really pushed hard. Unfortunately honesty & accountabilty come from the top & Sonia G or Rahul G have none of it.
>> it is possible to eradicate corruption.
Yes it is. I said it will not be eradicated in our life time, but that does not mean it cannot be markedly reduced.
@ Anwaar, it is possible to eradicate corruption. Look at countries like Norway, Sweden etc. The corruption is next to nil. When we go with an approach that corruption cannot be eradicated, we have lost half the battle before it began. Only with this kind of uncompromising attitude, corruption can be eradicated. Zero tolerance is essential to eradicate corruption.
I agree with you that a lot has to be done. I also appreciate what Anna has done in bringing the issue to the fore and knocking off at least some of the lethargy and cynicism off the ruling class. Some concerns about maintaining the fabric of our constitutional system and being alert to the possibility of the movement being hijacked by undesirable elements is not unjustified, even though most people do not want to think about that now.
I agree Mr. Narayan, as much as I like Nehru, on this count of corruption experts do suggest he "condoned it" - as in he did not take strict measures to nip it in the bud. He could have, as he did have the moral standing too. I think the need to not upset the apple-cart (status quo) was too overpowering for him. To some extent I think this is also the Indian way - we tend to not like to destroy to rebuild (and build better) - even though we have Shiva in the trinity - we pray to him and appease him not to destroy as opposed to pray to him and say "this should be destroyed".
Anwaar ... you are coming across as essentially "do nothing since lots has to be done and intellectualizing". I thought that Anna & Team approach was well calibrated, great negotiations (hope it can become a case study) and much needed. These are action oriented men/women as opposed to us armchair types, who keep thinking somehow that a nice, cosy, courteous business like discussion and agreement would come about - that a class that has everything going for itself (and passes it on to it's progeny) will just give up it's benefits from the system.
May be all this time in US, you cannot relate to how hard it is to exist in India to make a clean living and run a small business and I don't really do any business in India - I just build products in India and sell in US - so I deal with very few departments locally. Yet I have to make choices - good news is I pay service charge to experts who do the work - we all know but it helps you sleep at night - "essentially don't ask, don't tell" - but you have to be an ostrich to not know what happens to the service charge.
I can tell you that on the day of the Parliament debate, I had police verification for my passport renewal (BTW, until this one I always renewed it in the US). Normally, I have not met anyone who didn't have to pay for this. And BTW, for me my application had been pending for 6 weeks in police verification already (in US it was renewed within a week). However, that day I was not asked to pay anything nor did I offer - the guy did his job diligently - I shook his hand and thanked him.
Was it the Anna affect or was it just my luck to run across a young police guy from Mandya who took his job seriously. Who knows but I think you are just off base and intellectualizing. Corruption is the threat to democracy (because it will ensure rule of law doesn't prevail since you can always buy your way thru it) not Anna & Team or his tactics. The power relationship between the governing class and the governed needs signficant rebalancing and this will not happen the way you think - who in their right mind will just turn over and say I am willing to let go of my power and all that comes from it. Get real.
>> The Preamble of Indian Constitution commence with : "We, the PEOPLE of India, having solemnly resolved to constitute India" and NOT "We, the PARLIAMENT of India...
There is no conflict between "We the People" and Paliament. The Parliament belongs to the people. It has been picked by the people. It is an instrument that the people use to express their sovereignty.
The Preamble of Indian Constitution commence with : "We, the PEOPLE of India, having solemnly resolved to constitute India" and NOT "We, the PARLIAMENT of India, having solemnly resolved to constitute India". So the fountainhead of INDIAN DEMOCRACY is the "people of India" and the PARLIAMENT is part of that democracy supported and sustained by the people of India.
The CONSTITUTION has been amended more than 96 times in the last 61 years and the clause on "Emergency was amended and re-amended". So "Indian Democracy" does not become weaker by acceding to the demands of the PEOPLE OF INDIA.
Many government supporters tom tom about democracy and constitution. The congress stand is pro constitution but not pro democracy. Anna hazares stand is pro democracy and anti constitution. The congress supporters justified attack on ramdev as supported by constitution.
We must thank government to be arrogant enugh to bring such a bad bill with sibal claiming that team annas bill will never come. They have created a situation where democracy to survive it has to bend constitution. The trheat to constitution was created by Congress under Rahul and Diggi and not Anna. They duly participated in meetings and gave enough time.
But more importantly constitution is not sacrosanct. the situation has changed from time it was written to today. earlier every body was honest. today honesty is an rare exception.
Constitution is also not rigid. it has been changed and it should be changed again. The major decision making in the world has been shifted to people. Denmark people rejected admission in to European union while politicians wanted it. swiss people rejected construction of minarets while government recommended it. Italian people rejected nuclear power while government rejected it.
Today the democracy inside the party has to be restored. Congress came to power with just 11.9 crore votes and other 60 crore people are remaining without say. So we need to take opinion of remaining 60 crore voters and not 500 in parliament. Why we should have whip or Election ticket decided by high command. By law we need to have voting members with miimum criteria of experience and qualification who can vote to decide the ticket in the area. Once you take away the control of high command from ticket distribution you will see more streamlines decision making. ven on any ssue parties must vote internally to decide partys stand.
Unless we restore democracy in a real sense we cannot protect this constitution which is any way has become old and ineffective. today India is stabilised by PILs and Supreme Court and not parliament. effectiveness of parliament has to be restored. Today MPs and MLA murder people and no investigation takes place.
I am 40. Half my life I has seen corruption growing exponentially.
As you know, extraordinary situations (like the current magnitude of corruption) demand extraordinary measures (Fasting till death in full glare and support of media and juvenile people).
>> Why hold back that support for our people?
I fully support the fight against corruption. I do not support fasts, creating new bureaucracies with extra-ordinary powers, and issuing diktats, ultimatums and deadlines to the govrnment.
>> Corruption will not be eradicated, ever, unless we unitedly strengthen the hands of Anna, who alone has the moral stature and credibility to take on a corrupt establishment.
Even he does not have a magic wand.
A person doesn't become small by acknowledging his/her mistakes. The world is full of naysayes and armchair critics. They don't bring change. They just sit and carp. Any movement against a status quo has the danger of going off the mark but mankind survives on hope. I am sure you supported the Arab spring. Why hold back that support for our people? Their fight is no less important. Constitution is not merely a book of laws and guidelines. It embodies the living breathing spirit of our people. Isn't that spirit violated when most of the people who are supposed to uphold its sanctity routinely abuse it by their venal aims?
<< Corruption is not going to be eradicated in our life times. All we can do is to fight a fight that is mature, patient and persistent>>
Corruption will not be eradicated, ever, unless we unitedly strengthen the hands of Anna, who alone has the moral stature and credibility to take on a corrupt establishment.
A few years after we won independence, the activities of a corrupt minister were brought to the notice of Nehru. The magnanimous person that he was, Nehru [ardoned the offender saying that the individual in question suffered a lot during the freedom struggle. Had it been nipped in the bud with exemplary punishment, corruption would not have metamorphosed into the seemingly invincible monster it has become today.
>> 71 yrs old .I can wait another 64 yr.
Corruption is not going to be eradicated in our life times. All we can do is to fight a fight that is mature, patient and persistent.
The fight against corruption requires a mature and patient approach 'Faruki am 71 yrs old .I can wait another 64 yrs .No problem sir !
The fight against corruption requires a mature and patient approach. Team Anna's methodology includes fasting-to-death, holding the Lokpal to be the panacea, proposing a draconian new bureaucracy, issuing ultimatums and deadlines to the parliament and having mass rallies. This may hurt either the anti-corruption cause, or it may hurt our constitutional system of government, depending upon whether it fails or succeeds.