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Niira Radia: Hi Prabhu
Prabhu Chawla: Yaa tell me now
Niira Radia: Nahii nothing, I was just wanting to understand things from you. You always have a very good perspective.
Prabhu Chawla: On What?
Niira Radia: On everything bhai, ha ha ha ha. Generally you have a good perspective of everything. Trying to understand what is your view on this great historic judgment above the national interest.
Prabhu Chawla: You see when the brothers are involved, the nation also gets involved, naa?
Niira Radia: Yaa, but probably not a good thing naa. Not good for the nation.
Prabhu Chawla: Not good for the nation, but the brothers don’t talk to each other. There is nobody who can force them to talk also naa?
Niira Radia: Wo to ho gayii naa Prabhu tum bhii jaante ho
Prabhu Chawla: Maine koshiosh kii thi., nahii huaa. maine kahaa ho jayegaa
Niira Radia: Nahii. Abhii nahii. I was speaking to him even recently, I spoke to him this morning, the question of ..
Prabhu Chawla: (interrupts) is he back from wherever he had gone, Mukesh?
Niira Radia: He is very much here, he has been here the whole week.
Prabhu Chawla: He was abroad last week I think.
Niira Radia: No no no.
Prabhu Chawla: Anyway, somebody told me that he is abroad.
Niira Radia: NONONO. He has been here the whole week. He is not due to travel till next week.
Prabhu Chawla: because maine to. Sometimes he responds. Abhii I have stopped talking to him, calling him...
Niira Radia: No. He’s been here the whole week. I just spoke to him this morning also. He is very much here. He is not supposed to go anywhere till next week.
Prabhu Chawla: Nahii. Maine to usko... somebody… I didn’t… Usko maine 15-20 din pahle message bhejaa thaa. The he responded. Then I asked again. Then he never responded. Maine usko message nahii bhejaa phir. Because the whole judgement was coming, I wanted to forewarn you.
Niira Radia: Kyaa judgment uske khilaaf aa rahaa hai?
Prabhu Chawla: Haan, Arrogant hai naa. uske saath kyaa kare? Uske arrogance, dono bhaaiyyon kaa samajh bhi nahi aatii mero ko
Niira Radia: Prabhu tell me one thing. Judgement is fixed, right?
Prabhu Chawla: Dekho in this country, dono side mein fix karne kii capacity hain. Par baRaa bhaai hain naa.. Chhotaa bhaai mobile jyaada hai. Paise kam kharach kartaa hai, kanjoos hai sabse jyaadaa. But he is more mobile than the elder brother. Elder brother doesn’t want to go beyond what Dhirubhai left behind with him. Men or people, whatever. I think… You are getting what I am telling?
Niira Radia: I understand.
Prabhu Chawla: He is totally depending on the people who Dhirubhai created. They were relevant at that point of time. Now they are not relevant. Anilbhai has done… has developed new sources, new contacts , new way of thinking. That can be possibility ki Mukesh ko apnaa… ek uskii wife bhi thoRaa dictate jyaadaa karti hai. Anil kii wife nahii kartii hai. The way things are moving, Mukesh poor fellow is not able to get the right feedback because of insulation from various other sources. And I know what he is doing on the Supreme Court front. Various things. Which is not the way to go about.
Niira Radia: Hmm.
Prabhu Chawla: What he doing it is known to the rest of the world. Which is not good. Usko thoRaa… If he has to…. because everything is fixed now these days.
Niira Radia: Ab Supreme Court mein reverse ho gayaa, then he is finished for ever, yaar! If he doesn’t get a favourable response from Supreme Court, then he is finished, naa?
Niira Radia: But Prabhu ek baat bataauuN?
Prabhu Chawla: HaaN?
Niira Radia: Abhi tak Supreme Court kaa, between you and me, kuchh finalise huaa nahin?
Prabhu Chawla: Finalise kaa matlab kya hai? Bhai Murli Deora bhii jaayega court mein. Prime Minister is also putting pressure on Murli Deoa to settle it. Because ultimately it is national loss naa, as you put it. Itnaa mehanga ho raha hain fuel, ab 90 dollars ho jayegaa 2-3 mahiine meiN, if you are not able to take out gas from your own sources, then there is a problem, naa. Country should not bloody suffer because of these two brothers.
Niira Radia: That’s right. Which is what Mukesh has told Anil very clearly. That’s right. Which what Mukesh has told his brother very clearly. What is the issue? Anil …usne apne gas ke liye kabhii manaa nahin kiya. Usne kaha tera 28 mm sidhi ban tha hai. Agar NTPC 12 nahiiN letaa to teraa wo bhii ban taa hai. Yeh 2.34 who government ki price hai, mein us mein decide nahin karta huun as an operator. Uska point limited woh hai. I don’t know, aapne MoU dekha? I don’t know whether you have seen it, but I will show it to you. Un mein aisa kuchh likhaa nahiiN hain.
Prabhu Chawla: Nahii. MoU mein pataa nahiin, maine dekhaa nahiin isiliye I can't say, frankly speaking , and MoU mein, agar court ne order kiya, toh kisii basis pe kiyaa hogaa naa. Padhaa hogaa court ne.
Niira Radia: Nahin. Uska court kaa order meiN, 328 pages meiN I can give you anything, I can tell you, woh pen drive use kii hogii naa, Prabhu, woh jo telecom kaa TDSAT kaa judgement huaa naa, dual technology kaa Vahanvati ne jo karvaya hain, Dr Sarma.. Baad meiN Raja ne phir Dr Sarma ko TRAI chairman banaa diya. Woh, [abrupt change] … guaranteed kii same pen drive use kii hogii
Prabhu Chawla: hahaha (laughs)
Niira Radia: Mein tumko dono judgement aamne saamne dikhaoongii, tun dono paRlo. Usme jo… Dono wordings meiN…
Prabhu Chawla: Goolam Vahanvati is an old friend of mine. When I was editor of Indian Express, he was our counsel. Meraa bahut achhaa dost hai puraanaa. Nusli Wadia ke saath thaa pahle. He was a good friend of Nusli, I think even now he is with Nusli... Nusli wadia plotting [abrupt cut] We were goods friends of Nusli. Even now a good friend. [inaudible] Sharad Pawar also. But he is very close to Anil Ambani. Everybody knows about it. Appointment.. Anil Ambani, Nusli Wadia and our power minister, kya naam hai?, Shinde, they all went for him naa for the appointment of [inaudible]. Bhardwaj never liked him. Bhardwaj would not have made him the attorney general agar Bharadwaja law minister hotaa. Ab ban gaya wo. The question is these brothers have to come to the conclusion themselves first. Kyuunkii agreement to hogaa Court meiN jaa karke Supreme Court ne order dono ko acceptable de diya, that is one way of looking at it. KyuuNkii abhii to you are basically the whole judgement will decide the future of both of them naa? More of Mukesh than of Anil. Ki Anil kaa to saalaa power plant hii shuruu nahiiN huaa, usko gas kyaa karni hain saale ko?
Niira Radia: Judgement meiN usne 17 saal to likhaa nahiiN hai. mujhe lagtaa hai gas to de denii chaahiye kal se. Usko bolo chal tu le. Kya karegaa uske saath? Kuchh nahiiN kar saktaa
Prabhu Chawla: Aur le nahin sakta. Thiik hai, bolo utthaa lo gas jaa kar ke
Niira Radia: Aur paise do uske liye.
Prabhu Chawla: Haan paise do, bech nahin saktaa kisii aur ko. Judgement you can't sell it to anybody else naa?
Niira Radia: Correct, correct.
Prabhu Chawla: Theek hai, bhai. That, that… let Mukesh sell it wherever he wants to sell it. That should be the… Ab Mukesh kaa objective kyaa hai, I don’t know. You are not clear. Because unkaa yahaaN jo Anand Jain to baahar ho gayaa mere khayaal se. He is out, naa?
Niira Radia: Nahii nahiin, he is very much there. Again ye Anil ki philaaii hui baateiN haiN. Yeh galat baat hai. MaiN usko itnii baar khud dekh chukkii huun.
Prabhu Chawla: I don’t know, because people on both sides are haraamis, advisors.
Niira Radia: Nahiin, ek baat, sach baat, bataa duun tum ko. Anand Jain is very much there. Manoj Modi is very much there. Mukesh is very much there.
Prabhu Chawla: Manoj Modi is little more professional
Niira Radia: He is very professional
Prabhu Chawla: Manoj Modi very much professional. Anand Jain thoRaa politics kartaa hai kii uskaa apnaa dhandaa bhi hai. He has more influence on…
Niira Radia: But is matter meiN Manoj Modi jyaadaa hogaa na najdiik?
Prabhu Chawla: Haan, Manoj Modi jo bhi hain, but now Supreme Court mein aana hi hai case. Anil Ambani ne caveat file kardii. Kal parson kii.
Niira Radia: Woh toh karegaa naa. He has to safeguard his interests.
Prabhu Chawla: But since you have access to Mukesh, you should should convey to Mukesh that the way he is going about the supreme Court is not… I won’t give you anything more than that. It is not the right way.
Niira Radia: Nahin, “not the right way” matlab? He is going to Supreme Court, he shouldn’t go to Supreme Court?
Prabhu Chawla: No, no, no. The way he going to the Supreme Court. I wont tell you more than that. The people he is using, they are not the people who can be trusted for keeping it to themselves.
Niira Radia: Hmm..
Prabhu Chawla: Bol dete hain, ab London mein baith ke kuchh bhi bolte hain. Achchaa nahiin lagtaa naa, it gets back. London is like… London is not London. It is a phone call away.
Niira Radia: Hmmm..
Prabhu Chawla: Usko thoRaa… He must be… Political system hain Delhi meiN. Change ho gayaa. Mukesh. Mukesh ne bhi.. People may be projecting whatever he is close to Sonia, he is close to Rahul, he is close to this. But may be Mukesh got access, but he can’t influence anything. Collective jyadaa ho gaya naa. Kamalnath can decide one thing but he can be overruled by Pranab Mukherjee. So ye saare loose ends ko tighten karnaa hai naa?
Niira Radia: Maine tumharaa London kaa point catch nahiin kiyaa
Prabhu Chawla: Matlab, he is trying to understand how to go into the Supreme Court.
Niira Radia: I don’t think so Prabhu, tumko yeh kisne bataya?
Prabhu Chawla: ChhoRo na ab.
Niira Radia: Nahiin seriously, main tumse kyuuN chupauuN baat? Sach-much. I mean. Come on.
Prabhu Chawla: He has to go to appeal in Supreme Court or not finally?
Niira Radia: Agreed. He is appealing to Supreme Court. He will have to appeal in the Supreme Court, the question doesn’t arise.
Prabhu Chawla: If he is appealing to Supreme Court, he must be trying to find out the right people. Harish Salve to uskaa advocate hai hii. He will appear for him. Because he is an outstanding advocate. But he must be thinking if there any way of, like, Anil can use various ways, he can also use various ways or not. And you know what? Brothers are not… Clean to dono mein se… apne apne tareeka dono lagayanege naa?
Niira Radia: Haan. Anil Ambani apnaa lagaa hogaa, apne logo ke through, DMK ke through , apne Chief Justice ke paas yeh sab.
Prabhu Chawla: No, Chief Justice Kerala kaa hain.
Niira Radia: Haan. Kerla kaa.
Prabhu Chawla: He is not… Yeh bhi lage hoNge naa kisii ke through? Mukesh bhii to kar rahaa hogaa naa? Phir? Wohii kah rahaa huun. Mukeh jis tariike se approach kar rahaa hai, if that’s what I heard, is not the right way to go.
Niira Radia: Thiik hai. I understood what you are saying.
Prabhu Chawla: Now you understand naa?
Niira Radia: I will… Mein baat karuungi thoRii der meiN, I will tell him to speak to you.
Prabhu Chawla: Yeah, Because, I sent him messages, 10 bar messages bhejaa, he doesn’t reply. I don’t want to come into. Because my family is a retainer for Anil. I don’t want to discuss with him at all. Lekin sun to letaa huuN naa kai baar, idhar udhar political logoN se. But he not appearing for him. My son is not involved in this case at all.
Niira Radia: Your son, naa?
Prabhu Chawla: Haan, he is not involved at all
Niira Radia: Why?
Prabhu Chawla: He doesn’t trust my son also, in this case. (laughs) Anil doesn’t trust my son (in this case).
Niira Radia: Your son is with whom now?
Prabhu Chawla: He is a retained by Anil naa. He is independent. He is running his own independent company. He is not with Ryan [?] any more. He is running his own solicitor firm. He was retained by various people. Anil’s mobile is one company which retains him. But in this case he is not involved. But idhar udhar se pick up to karte hain na chiizen sab.
Niira Radia: Right right
Prabhu Chawla: My information is through the legal sources. Once you tell him that Prabhu was saying something about you talking to people in London, he will understand.
Niira Radia: Chalo I will tell him
Prabhu Chawla: Chhota Bhai baRaa haraami hai.
Niira Radia: Harami to hai lekin har waqt haraamii panaa last nahiin kartaa naa, Prabhu you also know.
Prabhu Chawla: Question is, abhii, when you are working in a system which is not clean, you have to be… bhaii tumhaare ko nuksaan to ho gaya naa? Udhar recovery karte raho apne aap. It is better to do it in a manner so that you are not the loser.
Niira Radia: Thiik hai
Prabhu Chawla: Main kal jaa rahaa huuN Bombay. Ek baar usne kahaa thaa dinner pe aana ghar pe. That is about… He called me one day. You remember [inaudible] mein gaya tha uske liye. I was the only senior editor there. After that I tried to meet him but nahiiN mil paayaa. I went a couple of times to Bombay recently but he was not there. I have been trying to reach him par uske baad baat hii nahii huii.
Mr Chawla had sent us a transcript himself. The one above has been cross-checked by Ishani Roy and OL. We'd be grateful if you point out any errors that may have crept in despite all care being taken.
Thank you to all those who have taken the trouble to read the article and share their thoughts. Out of the arguments made here, there are two that perhaps need answering. So here they go.
1. The first part of the article compares outcomes (relative percentages of population of the religions concerned) irrespective of the process that led to those outcomes - whether immigration, relatively faster population growth or conversions. This was for two reasons. One, to put the figure of 2.3 per cent in "numerical perspective", as the article itself explained. The second reason was that outcomes are ultimately what the crux of debate is about. The rest of the article in any case dealt with process - or conversions in this case, from both a contemporary and historical perspective.
2. Some commenters have tried to cast doubts on the reliability of Census 2001. Those who do this should bear in mind that Census 2001 was conducted by a BJP government. Considering the extreme importance that BJP gives to this issue, it would be reasonable to expect that IF it had perceived a problem with the methodology that was distorting the numbers, it would have fixed it. As the article mentioned, BJP or BJP-supported governments have been in power for 10 of the last 40 years, or about a quarter of the time, and the only reasonable conclusion one can arrive at is that any misreporting of numbers, real or perceived, would be marginal and hence, not of importance.
To all other arguments made, my answer is the following: Please read the article again, with particular focus on the quotations of Vivekananda and Monier Williams, and the history of the missionary efforts in Bengal and their outcome.
notwithstanding prabhu is journalist of standing , he is not above board in every aspects because he has seen reality in life-once upon a time- he was a great investigative journalist- but he did not write his stories and got written by others in his name. but his sources are great in corridor of power in almost all the government in last several years, particularly in vajpayee regime because of his bjp leanings-it is but natu ral. but also his coversations with neera also seems a part of brokery in bluntness of course. it is matter of interospection by himself (prabhu)wheather he is right or wrong in such lobby with a lady of doubtful character to favour corporates in his conversations.thanx regards.
krishn kumar singh, journalist, patna, bihar
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