Response
Oh, But You Do Get It Wrong!
Wendy Doniger (1) falsely and unfairly brands all of her critics as right-wing Hindutva fundamentalists, and (2) grossly mischaracterizes (and misquotes) the text of the Valmiki Ramayana

Wendy Doniger (Mircea Eliade Distinguished Professor of the History of Religions in the Divinity School and in the Department of South Asian Languages and Civilizations at the University of Chicago) was recently interviewed in Outlook with reference to her new book, The Hindus: An Alternative History.  In the interview, she (1) falsely and unfairly brands all of her critics as right-wing Hindutva fundamentalists, and (2) grossly mischaracterizes (and misquotes) the text of the Valmiki Ramayana, calling into question her “alternative” version not just of the Ramayana, but also of Hinduism and Hindu history as a whole. 

Doniger’s prominence and clout as a “definitive” authority in the discourse on Indian traditions and history give her views considerable significance.  For, it is Doniger’s (and her colleagues’) versions of Hinduism and Hindu history (which are often at serious variance with traditional Hinduism as practised and understood by Hindus themselves) that form the curriculum of university courses, line the bookshelves of the “Hinduism” sections of bookstores (physical and virtual), and are given play in the Western and Indian mainstream press. 

Accordingly, this latest “alternative” history could easily become known as the “canonical” history of Hinduism, because of the imbalance of power between the Western academy and the traditional institutions for learning about Hinduism (which have been marginalized and largely rendered inaccessible under British colonialism.)

Defamation of Critics

The introduction to the interview begins with a misleading quote:

“[Doniger] has continued to infuriate the Hindutva brigade with her unorthodox views on Hinduism and its sacred texts, earning for herself the epithet: “crude, lewd and very rude in the hallowed portals of Sanskrit academics.”” 

The quote implicitly attributed to the “Hindutva brigade” is actually from the BBC web site: 

    Professor Wendy Doniger is known for being rude, crude and very lewd in the hallowed portals of Sanskrit Academics. All her special works have revolved around the subject of sex in Sanskrit texts ranging from Siva: The Erotic Ascetic to Tales of Sex and Violence...Never one to shy away from sex, she threw herself into the job of translating the [Kama Sutra] ... She was particularly interested by the parts that justify adultery and the list of ways to get rid of a man ... When she was translating it (over a period of a few years and numerous Sanskrit classes), she frequently found herself having to take cold showers. [1]

The misleading use of this quote sets the tone for the rest of the interview —heaping blame on a nebulous, undefined, straw man “Hindutva Internet Brigade” for the whole continuum of criticism of Doniger’s work—criticism that has come mostly from moderate and liberal Hindus, secularists, non-Hindu scholars and even one prominent Harvard Indologist who is not known for being friendly towards Hindus.  Rather than confront the actual criticisms, Doniger pretends that her only critics are Hindu extremists, and by rebuking this “enemy” she tries to deflect any criticism of her work.

Just as some politicians resort to picking on their weakest critic to discredit all of their critics, Doniger picks one stray comment on the Amazon web site to characterize all of her critics—when asked to describe the Hindu-American response to her book, Doniger exclaims, “My favourite one on Amazon accuses me of being a Christian fundamentalist and my book a defence of Christianity against Hinduism. And of course, I’m not a Christian, I’m a Jew!”

Doniger ignores the prolific response to her work by the American Hindu community, including dozens of published articles, countless public conferences, repeated calls for debate and dialogue between the academy and the Hindu-American community, and a recently published book analysing the representation of Hinduism in American universities.  It is totally irresponsible for such a prominent professor, whose career is built on writing about Hinduism, to stereotype and vilify the entire Hindu-American community on the basis of the actions of a few. 

Doniger’s refusal to address her critics only worsens as the interview proceeds.  When asked why Hindus object to her writings, she flippantly replies: 

    You’ll have to ask them why. It doesn’t seem to me to have much to do with the book. They don’t say, “Look here, you said this on page 200, and that’s a terrible thing to say.” Instead, they say things not related to the book: you hate Hindus, you are sex-obsessed, you don’t know anything about the Hindus, you got it all wrong.

This is a bald lie.  The first Part of the book, Invading the Sacred, documents and refutes dozens of statements by Doniger, as illustrated by the following:

  • “Holi, the spring carnival, when members of all castes mingle and let down their hair, sprinkling one another with cascades of red powder and liquid, symbolic of the blood that was probably used in past centuries.”  (from Doniger’s article about Hinduism in the Microsoft Encarta Encyclopaedia—Microsoft Encarta subsequently removed her entry in 2004; while we do not know this for a fact, one can reasonably conclude that Microsoft Encarta came to an internal conclusion about Doniger’s lack of scholarship and objectivity). 
  • From a newspaper article in the Philadelphia Inquirer, dated November 19, 2000, entitled "Big-screen caddy is Hindu hero in disguise" written by David O'Reilly, Inquirer Staff Writer:

    "Myth scholar Wendy Doniger of the University of Chicago was on hand earlier this month to lecture on the Gita.  “The Bhagavad Gita is not as nice a book as some Americans think,” she said, in a lecture titled “The Complicity of God in the Destruction of the Human Race.”   “Throughout the Mahabharata, the enormous Hindu epic of which the Gita is a small part, Krishna goads human beings into all sorts of murderous and self-destructive behaviors such as war in order to relieve "mother Earth" of its burdensome human population and the many demons disguised as humans … The Gita is a dishonest book; it justifies war, Doniger told the audience of about 150” (emphasis added). 

    Doniger may now claim that she was misquoted, but she has failed to obtain a retraction from the Philadelphia Inquirer.  

  • Prof. Michael Witzel, Wales Professor of Sanskrit in the Department of Sanskrit and Indian Studies at Harvard University posted the following remarks about Doniger's translations to a mailing list and called her translations "UNREALIABLE" [sic] and "idiosyncratic:"
  • Doniger's “rendering of even the first two paadas [of the Rg Veda] is more of a paraphrase than a translation;” 
  • “In this hymn (of 18 stanzas) alone I have counted 43 instances which are wrong or where others would easily disagree.”  
  • “Note that all 3 translations are Re-translations. Mistakes of the type mentioned above could easily have been avoided if the work of our 19th century predecessors (and contemporaries!) had been consulted more carefully … Last point: Looking at the various new translations that have appeared in the past decade or so: Why always to Re-translate something done 'several' times over already --- and why not to take up one of the zillion Un-translated Skt. texts?” [2] 

Is that specific enough? 

Nor can Doniger claim ignorance of these examples, having been made aware of them through emails, various conferences, journals and mailing lists by many people, including university professors, fellow scholars, and students.

As a scapegoat tactic to discredit her critics, Doniger plays both the sex card and the race card, without offering any evidence for being discriminated against on the grounds of her gender or her race:

    I think I have a double disadvantage among the Hindutva types.  One is that I’m not a Hindu and the other is that I am not a male.  I suppose the third is that I’m not a Brahmin, but I don’t even get there because I’m not a Hindu!  I think it’s considered unseemly in the conservative Hindu view for a woman to talk about sex—that’s something men talk about among themselves (emphasis added).

But her critics have been concerned not with her gender or race but only with the content of her scholarship.  Race and sex bias are the “cards” Doniger uses to distract readers who are unfamiliar with the details of the substance of the critiques against her.  

Hindu society acknowledges and celebrates any genuine scholars of Hinduism, irrespective of their gender, race or caste.  For example, the late Sir John Woodroffe / Arthur Avalon is regarded by even the most traditional and orthodox of Hindu acharyas, including the late Shankaracharya of Sringeri, as one of the great Tantric scholars of modern times—despite his being neither Hindu nor Brahmin-born.  In addition, Dr. Klaus Klostermaier, University Distinguished Professor in the Department of Religion at the University of Manitoba (Canada), is highly respected in Hindu circles.  Linda Johnsen, neither male, Hindu, nor Brahmin-born, author of The Complete Idiot's Guide to Hinduism (2002) among several other books, is also highly regarded for her knowledge about Hinduism.

This respect is not just academic—non-Indian spiritual gurus have been revered by Hindus as well.  Daya Mata (Faye Wright), another female, non-Hindu, non-Brahmin (by birth) of the Self-Realization Fellowship (SRF) was highly regarded by the most traditional and orthodox of Hindu leaders, including (I have been told) the late Shankaracharya of Sringeri, a great scholar and authority on Hinduism.  Similarly, Sister Nivedita (Margaret Elizabeth Noble), female, non-Hindu, non Brahmin-born, perhaps the most prominent of Swami Vivekananda’s disciples, has been revered as a true Hindu saint by many orthodox Hindus, including Brahmins; so also has Mother (Mira Alfassa), the Frenchwoman closely associated with (and successor to) Sri Aurobindo.  I could go on with a list of lesser known women of foreign birth who are equally acknowledged as true representatives of Hinduism.  I have not even touched upon the scores of Indian women who have been revered by Hindus from the Vedic times to the modern day—e.g., Gargi, whose open debate with the great sage Yajnavalkya is prominently featured in the Brhadaranyaka Upanisad.

Moreover, the idea that “it’s considered unseemly in the conservative Hindu view for a woman to talk about sex--that’s something men talk about among themselves” is another blatantly false stereotype by Doniger.  

Doniger’s contention that traditional Hindu women are not allowed to talk about sex is directly refuted by the celebrated account of the debate between Ubhaya-Bharati and Adi Shankara, one of the great intellects of the world, sage from the 8th Century CE, and father of Advaita Vedanta as known today.  Adi Shankara was challenged to a debate by Mandana Misra, a learned and well-known Purva Mimamsa scholar.  They agreed that Mandana’s wife, Ubhaya-Bharati, a renowned scholar in her own right, would be the referee and that the loser of the debate would become the disciple of the winner.  After debating for many days, Mandana Misra lost and was about to become the disciple of Adi Shankara.  However, Ubhaya-Bharati then challenged Adi Shankara to debate her, on the grounds that since she and her husband were one person upon being married, he would have to defeat both of them in order to win the debate.

 Adi Shankara accepted her challenge.  The debate went well for Adi Shankara until Ubhaya-Bharati began posing intricate questions on the science of erotics (well-accepted, in the appropriate context, as a topic of sacred discourse and knowledge in Hinduism).  If it was “considered unseemly” per traditional Hinduism for women to talk about sex, the official version of the Shankara Digvijaya (accepted as authentic by the Sringeri Shankaracharya Matha) would never have mentioned Ubhaya-Bharati’s questioning of Adi Shankara.  (Adi Shankara ended up satisfactorily answering the questions on eroticism, and Ubhaya-Bharati accepted her defeat.) 

 There is also the celebrated account given in the Yoga Vasistha of Queen Chudalai, an advanced yogini, who initiates her husband, King Sikhidvaja, as her disciple; she tests his renunciation repeatedly and instructs him on the proper attitude towards sexual union and sensual pleasure.  Similarly, the famous Tripura Rahasya narrates Princess Hemalata’s initiation of her husband, Prince Hemachuda, into the secrets of samadhi and moksha.  Finally, the Mahabharata recounts the famous interaction between Arjuna and Urvashi—when Arjuna rejected Urvashi’s frank invitation for sexual union, she pronounced the following curse: “Since thou disregardest a woman come to thy mansion … of her own motion—a woman, besides, who is pierced by the shafts of Kama, therefore, O Partha, thou shalt have to pass thy time among females … destitute of manhood and scorned as a eunuch." 

As these examples show, not only were women allowed to discuss sex, they had the authority and scriptural and social standing to challenge and teach the greatest of sages and the most royal of men with respect to all subject matters, including sex and eroticism.

Of course, it is unfortunate that the puritanical mores of Victorian British rule have corrupted modern Hindu society, restricting the open acceptance of sex and sexuality.  However, the holistic acceptance of sex and sexuality (without gender or orientation bias) inherent to Hinduism is still vibrant and alive in traditional Hinduism.

In a personal context, I can say unequivocally that despite my birth and upbringing as an American and my liberal schooling in Boston and at Yale Law School, my most honest and open discussions of sex have been with the most orthodox and “traditional” of Hindu swamis and acharyas.  They helped me unlearn the associative guilt and sexual repression of Western mores.  They also taught me that sexual desire is, in the appropriate context, an integral part of life and that there is nothing sinful  or shameful about it, and that heightened sexual energies are not antithetical to, but can be an integral part of, spiritual development for people qualified (adhikaris) for those types of sadhana or spiritual practice.

In short, playing this race and sex card may be an attempt by Doniger to elicit sympathy—but this cannot substitute for sound scholarship.  In the traditions of true academic scholarship, Doniger should let her work stand or fall on its own merits and not hide behind false victimhood.        

Misrepresentations of Valmiki Ramayana

Apart from unfairly stereotyping and insulting her critics, most of the rest of the interview concerns Doniger’s take on the Valmiki Ramayana.

The “Interpolation” of Ravana’s Curse

According to Doniger:

    Things were added on in Ramayana’s first and seventh book later on. For instance, in the seventh book we have a story long before the story of Rama and Sita about how Ravana raped one of the great apsaras, Rambha ... [Her husband] curses Ravana that if he ever touches a woman against her will, his head will shatter into a thousand pieces. So that story is then told in the Ramayana to explain why Ravana didn’t force himself on Sita despite keeping her in his house all those years. In the earlier Ramayana, there’s nothing about this ... This is a later idea that creeps in.”

It is incorrect for Doniger to say that the curse upon Ravana was a “later idea that [crept in]” to explain Ravana’s unwillingness to rape Sita.  The relevant incident is found in Book 6 (Yuddha Kanda), almost universally recognized as part of the original Valmiki Ramayana.  (It is the first part of Book 1 (Bala Kanda) and all of Book 7 (Uttara Kanda) that are, debatably, later interpolations.) 

The account is given by Ravana in Sarga (Canto) 13 of Book 6 (Yuddha Kanda): 

    Once I beheld (a celestial nymph) Punjikasthala (by name) ... She was stripped of her garment and ravished by me.  She then reached the abode of Brahma ... Highly enraged, the creator forthwith addressed the following words to me: “If you (happen to) violate any other woman hence forward, your head will be forthwith split into a hundred pieces; there is no doubt about it.”  Hence, afraid (as I am) of his curse, I do not violently put Sita, a princess of the Videha territory, on my charming bed by force. [3]

There is an account of Ravana’s rape of Rambha in Book 7 (Uttara Kanda)—but it is the incident recounted in Book 6 (accepted as part of the original Valmiki Ramayana) that is explicitly offered as the reason why Ravana did not rape Sita.  The effect of the rape of Rambha is more generic:  “[Ravana] felt inclined no more to copulate with women who were unwilling to approach him." [4]   

This is not mere nitpicking—the citation of the rape of Punjikasthala in Book 6 discredits Doniger’s contention that the curse on Ravana was a later interpolation interjected to conveniently explain why Ravana never raped Sita. 

Rama as a “Sex-Addict”

According to Doniger, the concept of a “sex-addict” is introduced into the Valmiki Ramayana by Lakshmana calling Dasaratha kama-sakta, which she defines as “hopelessly attached to lust.”

It is not clear where Doniger picks up the term ‘kama-sakta’—the term does not appear upon a search of the text of the Valmiki Ramayana as given in the Titus online database, which is based on the following version of the text: G.H. Bhatt e.a., The Valmiki Ramayana, (Baroda 1960-1975), prepared by Muneo Tokunaga, March 12, 1993 (adaptations by John D. Smith, Cambridge, 1995.)

Further, neither the term nor its variants appear in the most logical place where Lakshmana would have used the words to describe Dasaratha, the passage in Book 2 (Ayodhya Kanda) when Lakshmana disparages the character of Dasaratha for banishing Rama.  The relevant phrases that Lakshmana uses here are the following: nripah vipariitasheha (king with perverted mind), pradharshhitaH vishhayaiH (who is outraged by sensual enjoyments) and samanimadhaH (who is possessed of passion). [5]  None of these terms translates even remotely as “sex addict / addiction”.  Addiction is something more than just being overcome by lust: addiction is a “compulsive need for and use of a habit-forming substance…characterized by tolerance and by well-defined physiological symptoms upon withdrawal." [6]     

However, for the sake of argument, I will give the benefit of the doubt to Doniger and assume that the term kama-sakta has been used by Lakshmana to describe Dasaratha in the Valmiki-Ramayana.  That in and of itself does not imply that Dasaratha was “hopelessly addicted to lust.”  Kama-sakta simply means an attachment (sakta) to desire (kama). Kama does not itself necessarily refer to sexual desire, or even erotic or romantic desire.  Dasaratha’s reluctance to allow Rama to serve as guard over Vishwamitra’s yajna, for example, or Lakshmana’s unwillingness to be parted from Rama, could equally be characterized as kama-sakta.  To assume it to mean “attachment to lust” is another in a pattern of Doniger’s ex-cathedra translations in variance with traditional Sanskrit nirukta (etymology) for which she has been repudiated before. 

It has been brought to my attention that, subsequent to the original interview, as published in print and on this website, Doniger’s statements were corrected to carry the following version of Doniger’s quote on October 20: “Lakshman is the one who actually says it.   He says the king is hopelessly attached to sensual objects.  But Rama himself says (at 2.47.8) that the king is kama-atma, entirely consumed by kama.”  The deletion of the term kama-sakta and the addition of the new reference is not explained, other than as a "typo".

To offer Doniger leeway that she almost never offers her critics, I will accept the “corrected” statement—but her argument still fails.  The relevant reference—found in Sarga 53 of the Gita Press, Gorakhpur version and in Sarga 47 of the Titus database version (mentioned above)—is part of a scene where Rama reminisces about his father to Lakshmana during the first night of his banishment from Ayodhya.  Here is the exact reference:

    anaathaH caiva vRiddhaH ca mayaa caiva vinaakRitaH | kim kariSyati kaama aatmaa kaikeyyaa vasham aagataH ||

    vRiddhascha (aged); anaathashcha ((and therefore) helpless); mayaarinaacha (deprived of my presence); kim karishhyati (what will he do); kRitaH (dominated as he is); kaamaatmaa (by his passion (for Kaikeyi)); aagataH (and who has fallen); kaikeyiivasham (into clutches of Kaikeyi). 

     “Aged and (therefore) helpless, deprived of my presence, what will he do, dominated as he is by his passion for Kaikeyi and who has fallen into the clutches of Kaikeyi.”

As with the phrases described above (uttered by Lakshmana in anger), Kama-atma does not necessarily mean “entirely consumed by kama.”  For example, the illustrious commentary on the Ramayana by Sivasahaya, Raamayana Siromani¸ gives the following example of using the term kama-atma in a non-sexual context:  kaama aathmaa:  kaama - abhishEka vishayiNi ichchhaa (desiring the matter of crowning) aathmaa - aathmani manasyEva yasya sah (one who had this in mind)—i.e., “the king who desired in his mind the crowning [of Rama]." [7]

Falling prey to love (Rama’s description) or being overcome by lust (Lakshmana’s description) does not make one a sex addict; if it did, then any of us could be accused of the same!  Sex was explicitly discussed and celebrated in ancient Indian / Hindu texts, as an accepted integral part of life—discussions of being overcome by desire, therefore, do not automatically translate into one being characterized or condemned as a sex-addict.  These epithets were uttered in anger and anguish by Dasaratha’s sons at the time of their separation from their family and kingdom—the epithets are indicative of their pain and anger and are not meant to be psychoanalytical judgements of Dasaratha’s character, particularly in a socio-cultural context where intense sexual enjoyment was not viewed as a vice—c.f., the accounts of Karadama rishi and Devahuti in the Srimad Bhagavatam, Yayati and Sarmishta in the Mahabharata, and Kacha and Devyani in the Mahabharata, where long periods of intense sexual union were described without any condemnation or sense of shame.   

In any case, it is not necessary to get entangled into the technicality of semantics to challenge Doniger’s central thesis, which is summarized in the following excerpt from the interview:

You also suggest that because Rama is afraid of turning into a sex addict like his father, he throws Sita out after enjoying sex with her?

You have a chapter in Valmiki’s Ramayana where Rama was so happy with Sita, they drank wine together, they were alone, enjoying themselves in every way, indulging in various ways, not just the sexual act. And in the very next chapter he says I’ve got to throw you out.  So I’m suggesting: what is the connection between those two things?  And what does it mean that Rama knows that Dasaratha, his father, disgraced himself because of his attachment to his young and beautiful wife.  So I’m taking pieces of the Ramayana and putting them together and saying these are not disconnected.

So you are saying his fear of following in his father’s footsteps is making him betray his own sexuality?

Yes, I am. Or even of being perceived that way.

Note the internal contradiction in Doniger’s position—her  characterization of Rama hinges on a passage found in Book 7 (Uttara Kanda), and she has elsewhere in the interview dismissed that same Book 7 as a later interpolation! 

In any event, the passage describing Rama and Sita’s “indulgence” is from Sarga 42 of Book 7 (Uttara Kanda), where Rama and Sita are enjoying their reunion after Sita’s abduction.  As described therein, during this period of two winters (i.e., two years, although in some versions, an additional half-shloka is included providing that this interlude lasted 10,000 years), Rama and Sita would spend the second half of every day together in Rama’s Ashoka-grove, enjoying heavenly music and dance and partaking of gourmet food and intoxicating drinks.  Rama and Sita are compared to other divine couples:

    Taking in his hand the pure nectar of flowers as intoxicating as the Maireyaka wine, Sri Rama … made Sri Sita drink it, just as Indra does Sachi ... Seated in the company of the celebrated Sita, [Rama] shone with splendour like Vasishta seated along with Arundhati.  Sri Rama, steeped in joy like gods, afforded delight thus day after day to … Sita, who resembled a divine damsel. [8]

Doniger conveniently leaves out the fact that it is in this chapter that Rama discovers that Sita is pregnant.  Delighted at this revelation, Rama asks her to tell him which desire of hers he should fulfil.  This is Sita’s response: “O Raghava!  I wish to visit the holy penance-groves and to stay, O Lord!, at the feet of sages ... living on the banks of the Ganga ... This is my greatest wish that I should stay even for one night in the penance-grove of those who live only on fruits and (edible) roots." [9]  Rama readily acquiesces to this wish, promising that she will be taken for a visit there the very next day.

Doniger claims that “in the very next chapter [Rama] says [to Sita] I’ve got to throw you out.”  This is another totally false statement by Doniger.  It is in Sarga 45 (after two intervening sargas / chapters, wherein Rama learns of the negative gossip surrounding Sita and thus decides to banish her) that Rama orders Lakshmana to take Sita to the forest and leave her there.  This is just one more instance of Doniger’s casual disregard of the facts, unbecoming of a distinguished professor with a named chair at the University of Chicago.

Of course, it is the two sargas / chapters that Doniger skips over in her “alternative” narrative that provide the reason for Rama banishing Sita: Rama is informed that he is being rebuked by the people of Ayodhya as follows: “Why does not Sri Rama censure [Sita], who formerly had been forcibly carried away by Ravana? ... Such conduct of our wives shall have to be suffered by us also, since whatever a king does, the subjects follow." [10]  The pernicious rumours are about Sita’s chastity / purity, not about Rama’s excessive lust. 

When this gossip is confirmed by others, Rama summons his brothers to him, and informs them of his decision to leave Sita, providing the following explanation for his decision: “As long as the word of infamy circulates, so long one does fall in the lower regions (hell).  Infamy is censured even by the gods and fame gains credence in the world." [11]  It is the fear of losing his good name (as the result of the infamy surrounding Sita’s chastity by the gossip-mongers of Ayodhya) that impels Rama, not fear of being chastised as a sex-addict.

Nowhere is it mentioned that Rama feared he might fall victim to the “vice” of sex and that he therefore abandoned Sita – this again appears to be an example of the kind of fanciful creation for which Doniger and many of her students, now academicians at leading American universities, have become well-known.  There is no connotation of illicit or excessive indulgence in the description of Rama and Sita’s blissful interlude together in Sarga 42—to the contrary, Rama and Sita are depicted as a divine couple with the dignity and radiance of Indra and Sachi, Vasishta and Arundhati.  Rama is full of tenderness for Sita upon discovering her pregnancy.  It clearly breaks his heart to send Sita away—after giving Lakshmana the command, “[Rama] the noble one with His eyes closed, taking leave of His brothers, entered His own apartment, with his heart agitated by sorrow, deeply sighed as an elephant." [12]

In Doniger’s own words, she is “taking pieces of the Ramayana and putting them together” to come up with this far-fetched explanation.  But, one cannot play connect-the-dots with various scenes from a vast text such as the Valmiki Ramayana, stripping out the proper sequence and removing the contextual background of the critical passages, and then call it a valid textual interpretation.  

Even if Doniger is reading into the text certain psychological motivations she wants to attribute to the characters, her characterization appears to be illogical--if Rama sent Sita away simply because he didn’t want to become / be characterized as a sex addict, why did he not make arrangements to claim his future heir(s), whom he knew Sita carried in her womb? 

Construction of Hindu Temples

Doniger suggests that Hindus did not have a prominent temple-building movement—because building temples requires “a lot of money, land, a whole system of building temples, which the Hindus did not have at first”—until the Bhakti movement gathered momentum “to organize Rama or Shiva worship.”  She makes a superfluous reference to the fact that the Kama Sutra does not discuss temple worship—one wonders why the Kama Sutra would be a relevant reference for discussion of temple construction, but then one recalls the BBC quote at the beginning of this note about Doniger’s strange predilection for the Kama Sutra.

This is really the topic for another article, but it is worth quickly noting here that the Sathapatha Brahmana portion of the Shukla Yajur Veda, dating back to at least 1500 BCE, describes a special form of tabernacle, distinct from the Agni-shala of the household, for which a special fire-priest, the Agnidhra, was designated.  Through the kindling of the fire, the tabernacle became the dwelling place of the Vishvedevas (all the gods).  This is a prototype for later Hindu temples, where icons replaced the sacred fire as the focus of worship.  In other words, if one wants to be polemical, one can definitely argue that the genesis of formal temple construction vidhis – rules and methods – certainly pre-dates the advent of Buddhism.

Further, details of (at least Vaishnava) temple construction, the consecration of images for worship, and the actual procedures and rituals for temple worship are set forth in the ancient Vaikhanasa and Paancharatra Agamas.  The Vaikhanasa Agama dates back to at least the 3rd or 4th century CE, and its Kriyaa Paadha discusses temple construction and image consecration while its Charyaa Padhaa focuses on the associated rituals of worship. 

There are many examples of temples from these ancient times.  A few are quickly identified here: The early phase of Chalukyan temple building began in the last quarter of the 6th century and resulted in many cave temples, including a Vaishnava temple dating back to 578 CE.  The second phase of Chalukyan temple building at Aihole, celebrated as one of the cradles of Indian temple architecture, dates back to approximately 600 CE.  Similarly, the Pallavas constructed rock-cut temples dating from 610–690 AD and structural temples between 690–900 AD, including the rock-cut temples at Mahabalipuram, the Kailasanatha temple in Kanchipuram, and the Shore Temple built by Narasimhavarman II.

Doniger’s Larger Narrative about Hinduism

The story Doniger wants to tell about the Ramayana fits into her larger narrative about the character of Hinduism.  Her overarching narrative is captured in her statement: “That’s why Hinduism is such a wonderful religion. It’s because people are allowed to have their own texts … there was no one who said there was only one way to tell the Ramayana ... And no one would say that you got it wrong.”

Of course, there is great diversity in Hinduism—after all, over three hundred versions of the Ramayana co-exist peaceably within the pantheon of Hindu literature.  There are no unnecessary battles about which version is the definitive version—Hinduism does not subscribe to the notion of One Book or One Prophet, which is the predominant characteristic of the Semitic religions – Judaism, Christianity and Islam. 

It is misleading to say, in a scholarly context, that just because multiple versions of a story exist, “no one [can] say that you got it wrong.” For, there is a significant difference between creating a new version of a story—e.g., Tulsidas retelling the Ramayana in his Sri Ramacharitamanasa, which does not purport to be the “original” or “corrected” version of the Valmiki Ramayana—and offering an academic explanation or interpretation of an existing story (the Valmiki Ramayana) that takes liberties with and/or misquotes the text. It is the difference between artistic interpretation and scholarly rigour. For a scholar, it is not sufficient to demonstrate that a constructed narrative or story is possible by stringing together disparate phrases and passages; rather, a scholar must show why her preferred version is more persuasive than other versions—why it is a more coherent narrative or a more insightful explanation. This is particularly important when the scholar’s preferred version sharply diverges from the canonical traditions of interpretation. This is not fundamentalism—this is what it means to be a scholar! 

The diversity within Hinduism and Hindu society is one of its greatest strengths, but the danger of saying that there is no one Hindu identity is concluding that therefore there isn’t any Hindu identity.  Diversity should not be falsely treated as a lack of unity; to the contrary, e pluribus unum (from many, one).  Actually, in the Hindu framework, it would be from one, many—c.f., Bhagavad Gita (15:1): “There is a banyan tree which has its roots upward and its branches down and whose leaves are the Vedic hymns. One who knows this tree is the knower of the Vedas.”  In other words, from One Truth flower many expressions of that same truth, from one root of dharma flower the hymns, traditions, philosophical doctrines and sacred lore that comprise the tree of Hinduism.  Or, to give a musical analogy, within one scale or raaga, many variations may be improvised.

In concrete fact, unity underlies every instance of diversity in Hinduism over the eons—that is why, for example, Adi Shankara Bhagavadpada, spiritual titan and amongst the greatest intellects of the world established the four seats of his monastic order on the four corners of India—Jyotirmath / Badrinath in the North, Puri in the East, Dwaraka in the West and Sringeri in the South—he also installed Namboodris from the deep south of Kerala as officiating priests in the Himalayan temple of Badrinath (a practice that continues to this day).

In closing, there does exist an easily recognizable non-fundamentalist Hindu identity, built upon a body of history, sacred texts and philosophical and ritualistic traditions that span several thousands of years.  This Hindu identity is diverse and multidimensional but also internally consistent—a consistent scale, as it were, upon which millions of Hindus improvise their own variations. 


Aditi Banerjee received a B.A. in International Relations, magna cum laude, from Tufts University, and a J.D. from Yale Law School. She is a practicing attorney in London and also co-editor, Invading the Sacred: An Analysis of Hinduism Studies in America (Rupa & Co., June 2007)

Notes:

[1] Interview with Wendy Doniger, March 27, 2002, http://www.bbc.co.uk/asianlife/tv/network_east_late/biogs/wendy_doniger.shtml, available at http://web.archive.org/web/20020911134952/......biogs/wendy_doniger.shtml.

[2] Krishnan Ramaswamy, Antonio de Nicolas and Aditi Banerjee, eds., Invading The Sacred: An Analysis of Hinduism Studies in America (Rupa & Co., June 2007), p. 66. See also Ailes, Gregory D., Religious Studies: a Global View (Routledge 2007), p. 260.

[3] See Srimad Valmiki-Ramayana (With Sanskrit Text and English Translation), Gita Press, Gorakhpur (Sixth Edition 2001), Book Six, Canto 13, verses 4-15, (Volume 2, pp. 266-267).

[4] Srimad Valmiki-Ramayana (With Sanskrit Text and English Translation), Gita Press, Gorakhpur (Sixth Edition 2001), Book 7, Canto 26, Verse 58 (Volume 2, p. 769).

[5] Srimad Valmiki-Ramayana Book 2, Canto 21, Verse 3.

[6] See the Merriam-Webster Dictionary definition at http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/addiction.

[7] 'See Sivasahaya,Raamayana Siromani, Parimal Publications, New Delhi, Volume 2, p. 722.

[8] See Srimad Valmiki-Ramayana (With Sanskrit Text and English Translation), Gita Press, Gorakhpur (Sixth Edition 2001), Book 7, Canto 42, Verse 19 and 24, (Volume 2, p. 819).

[9] Id. , Verses 33-34, (Volume 2, p. 820).

[10] Id., Canto 43, (Volume 2, p. 821).

[11] Id., Canto 45, Verse 13 (Volume 2, p. 825).

[12] Id.Canto 45, Verse 24-25 (Volume 2, p. 825).

This article has been prepared with valuable inputs from:

His Holiness Swami Sarvananda Saraswati, Vedantacharya of the Shankara Advaita sampradaya; Chancellor, Bhartishreepeetham University, New Delhi; President, All India Quami Ekta Committee, New Delhi; Board of Directors, OISCA International, Tokyo, Japan; Chairman, Bhajan Sukhsewa Mission, U.S.A., U.K., Canada, France; Devi Upasaka, Sri Vidya authority, and orator.

Swami Sanmayananda Saraswati, sannyasin in the Shankara Advaita tradition, founder of Nallepilly Narayanalayam Ashramam in Kerala, and ardent devotee of Guruvayoor Krishna.

Bhagwat Bhaskara Sri Krishna Chandra Shastri (Thakurji), renowned Vaishnavism and Sanskrit scholar from the Sri Vaishnava (Ramanuja) sampradaya, world-renowned orator on Hinduism regularly featured on Aastha TV with audiences of 10,000 – 100,000 for his public discourses on Hinduism (Bhagwat Saptah)—Sri Thakurji is saddened both at the tone and nature of the contents of Prof. Doniger’s interview and will soon publish a rejoinder in the media. 

Dr. Oppiliappan Koil Varadachari Sadagopan, President, Networked Multimedia Services; retired executive IBM Research; Kaimkarya Ratnam and Sri VaishNav Srinidhi, recognized exponent / authority of Sri Vaishnavism (Ramanuja sampradaya) known for his knowledge of Carnatic music, author of innumerable e-books on Sri Vaishnavism and diverse Hindu spiritual topics.

Nagendra S. Rao, spiritual advisor / counsellor (to many, including me); community resource with a syncretistic Advaita and multicultural perspective; long-time close disciple of the late Shankaracharya of Sringeri, Jagadguru Sri Abhinava Vidyatheertha Mahaswamigal; co-founder and former Director of the Hindu American Foundation (HAF); sometime executive consultant on global strategy planning with IBM.

Dr. MG Vasudevan, retired engineer; Sanskrit and Ramayana scholar; freelance writer on the Ramayana, including an e-book on “The Roles of Lakshmana,”—he has provided many of the citations in this paper.

Rajiv Malhotra, renowned intellectual on Hinduism and traditional Indian culture; prolific author of scholarly studies on academic Hinduism programs at leading US universities; founder and president of Infinity Foundation; appointee to the Asian-American Commission for the State of New Jersey, where he serves as the Chairman for the Education Committee.

Dr. Prabhu Shastry, teacher of scriptures and spiritual texts at Bharata Vidya Bhavan, London; freelance Sanskrit teacher in London.

Sri K. Balasubramanian, Devi Upasaka; renowned practitioner / exponent of Sri Vidya & Sri Chakra puja.

Please visit www.invadingthesacred.com to learn more about the larger issues discussed in this note.

Typos fixed with the author's consent on October 29, 10:14 PM

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Daily Mail
COLLAPSE COMMENTS :
HAVE YOUR SAY
Nov 07, 2009 06:36 AM
115
Apologies to the Moderator. He or she has not deleted my earlier comments as I thought. I overlooked them. In fact, I see a welcome liberalness in the Moderator's current policy. Debate has to be frank and even contemptuous to be worthwhile.
Momeen Rashid
Delhi, India
Nov 07, 2009 04:32 AM
114
AUGUSTUS:

I wonder how you can believe that, let us say, Christianity, is "non-mystical"? All religions are mythological and mystical. It is unfair to brand only Hinduism with these traits.
Momeen Rashid
Delhi, India
Nov 07, 2009 04:29 AM
113
AUGUSTUS AAA:

All religions change with social and economic changes.

Christianity today is very far from the versions known in pre-industrial ages.

Hinduism, too, cannot eternally stand still. Only
people completely without a sense of history would expect it to.

Hinduism needs to meet the challenge of far more aggressive religions, organised to take over - Islam and Christianity. Like an army that adopts the superior arms of its enemies to beat them, Hinduism is adopting some of the traits of Islam and Christianity. That does not mean Hinmduism will not continue to differ from these enemies. It will, for instance, remain polytheistic.

So, don't be surprised by these natural changes.
Momeen Rashid
Delhi, India
Nov 06, 2009 08:17 PM
112
As far as intelligent postings go, Ms. Namratha's post is right up at the top of this thread.

I agree with Ms. Namratha that Banerjee probably didn't read the book. After all, for a comprehensive and nuanced understanding of Doniger's views on Ramayana and Hinduism, reading her book is a logical starting point. However, if the intent were to promote Banerjee's own book then reading Doniger isn't necessary. Consequently, any attempt at substantive criticism of Doniger's idea ends up sounding tinny.

Ms. Namratha writes, Hinduism "embodies many contradictions, oppositions and paradoxes. This is the beauty of it." While Hinduism's appeal to her seems to be mainly aesthetic, I suspect the Chaddi intuition is probably right. For their grim project, they need something more than aesthetics. They need a comprehensive, solid and internally consistent theology/philosophy that can explain the past, deal with the present and promise a future for all humanity in primarily non-mystical terms. That burden Hinduism cannot bear. So, we are treated to a comical spectacle of history-challenged Chaddis pushing a round peg into a square hole and deforming Hinduism in the process.
Augustus AAA
Pune, India
Nov 06, 2009 05:10 AM
111
'firm grip on reality...' blahblahnonsense

Best to leave the delusional padre wallowing in his own vomit
Ajit Tendulkar
Seattle, United States
Nov 06, 2009 04:34 AM
110
AUGUSTUS

Sorry about the typos below.
Momeen Rashid
Delhi, India
Nov 06, 2009 04:32 AM
109
AUGUSTUS AAA:

To my amazement the Moderator has removed a message to you that by any standars was moderately put.

All I said was that the hullaballoo about Doniger's depiction of Hindua compsrable way. deities in ways that many Hindus see as vulgar is understab=dable if we remember that the mainline Indian media rarely gives the same publicity to thoise who depct the heroes of other religions a comparably"shocking" way....

That said, Doniger has a right to her views. But so do others about other faiths, who don't get the same exposure.
Momeen Rashid
Delhi, India
Nov 06, 2009 03:13 AM
108
>>>>you lose what little credibility you have with such calumnious nonsense....

>>Hurts, does it, when you are paid back in your own coin?

You couldn't payback if you could steal coins...

>>>>all characterising is done on the substantive basis (or lack of) of the protest itself....

>>At least I see no substantive basis for reading Aditi as Hindutva

like the wailing and moaning on imperialism of western scholarship and blaming the lack of "traditional institutions for learning about Hinduism (which have been marginalized and largely rendered inaccessible under British colonialism)" blah blah blah? If that isn't a tell tale sign of Hindutva response to analysis of Hindu texts, then I don't know what is...

>>That is exactly the point, that Doniger despite all her avowed claims is actually quite an ignoramus,

Oooom......beammmmmm.....busssssss....there! you said it and the magical power of your word makes it true! I know kindergartners with a more firm grip on reality...

>>and thus says the biggest Sanskritist, Michael Witzel

Witzel's criticism is her translation of Rig Veda is idiosyncratic....but such criticism is lost upon knuckleheads who don't know the difference between vedic sanskirt and classical sanskirt...

>>>>The problem is the entire book is an angry rant of people who know very little about their own religious texts and resent the fact that others know more about it than they do.

>>And you say that because you have read the book?

I was providing you with a synopsis of the review since your basic reading and comprehension skills are quite iffy.

>>Exactly, but one hasn't seen any substantive rebuttal other than whines and accusations!

like the first 12,000 words of her 30,000 word sleep inducing ventfest?

>>>>what holes?

>>No point trying to converse with one all of whose orifices seem to be filled with horse manure

predictable response of he whose ass has been handed to him repeatedly on a plethora of issues...
Augustus AAA
Pune, India
Nov 06, 2009 12:08 AM
107
To "Namratha"

>>I have Wendy Doniger's book in entirety,

Didn't realise the book could be had not in its entirety as well

>>and after reading Banerjee's piece suspect that she HASN'T EVEN READ Doniger's book,

Suspect? So the rest of your post can easily be ignored.

>>and is ONLY responding to the earlier interview outlook published. This isn't fair. If she is going to critcize Doniger's work or research, she should read the work, in question (here it is the THE HINDUS) to draw an informed conclusion. It isn't right or ethical to do otherwise.

Oh, wow! It's fair for Outlook to publish her interview but not fair for someone to point out the stupidities in what Doniger has to say?!

>>Page 509 of Doniger's book, The Hindus, talks about the Bharati Madanamishra episode thaat Bannerjee also alludes to. 520 - Queen Chulala and her husband King Shikihidvaja. Bannerjee in this article makes it sound like Doniger is unaware of these examples - in fact she carefully discusses these in her work.

Irrelevant. In fact, these then disprove Doniger's whines about not being taken seriously because she is a woman!

>>Doniger's point is that there may be scriptural references to women discussing sex with men, but Doniger's point is that these scriptural refs exist - but do NOT translate into social realities/ socially acceptable norms.

That is not relevant vis-a-vis the interview, as DOniger is whinining that "Hindutva" crowd doesn't take her seriously because she is a woman blahsobblah

>>Regarding the 'canonical valmiki Ramayana' and the Rambha-Ravana incident, I have to say that there are MANY manuscripts of even the Valmiki Ramayana out there, with intriguing differences (in one, apparently, in Book 5 (sundara Kanda) Hanuman 'ejaculates' when seeing the beautiful women in Ravana's harem) - is that a scribe's mistake? or an interpolation, perhaps a detail in a folklore/oral Ramayana that crept into the text?

Let Doniger specify what she is basing her fast and loose remarks on.

>>It seems like the writer of this article, - an 'american..educated in Boston' is part of the Diaspora. She doesn't live in India, it appears. Lots of people write about hinduism and come to generalizations - and many of them are Hindus who know far less about hinduism than Doniger does. Just because Doniger is not a hindu or an Indian, others attack her work. This isn't fair. The hindu corpus is large enough to defend or attack ANY viewpoint.

Oh, come off it! What a load of horse manure!


>>Bannerjee is nitpicking on the sex addict front. I think most of us agree that Dasaratha was consumed with lust for Kaikeyi, and made some rather unwise decisions on that front - so what is the writer's issue with? Simply Doniger's use of the term 'sex addict' in characterizing Dasaratha? Perhaps the epic it self doesn't use the term, but it definately comes close. What issue does Bannerjee have with Dasaratha having negative traits? The epic clearly makes him out to be a flawed character. Why does Bannerjee want to whitewash him and not acknowledge his flaws?

Oh, but where is Doniger's textual evidence? First she cleverly makes up Kama-sakta. And even there, the clear multi-valence of the word disproves her very thesis!

>>Ram also ditches Sita in Uttara Kanda - so if anyone has to to talk about Sita's banishment, one is going ot have to cite the Uttara kanda. Doniger isn't arguing about an ur-text, or canonical, original, authentic Ramayana - that isn't the issue in her scholarship at all! So she wouldn't have any issues in pointing out that Uttara Kanda is (and this is accepted by most scholars) is a later addition, while discussing the literary characteristics of the same - she ISN'T contradicting herself, as this reviewer suggests.

Oh, but she uses it very conveniently! Why does she not recognise that it can be a double-edged sword that can cut her too?

>>Lastly, Hinduism isn't consistent. It may be so for the diaspora, but for me (and many others) who live in India, it embodies many contradictions, oppositions and paradoxes. This is the beauty of it. For example dualism and non-dualism (dvaita and advaita) schools of thought both exist in Hinduism, but result in very different conceptions of the universe and of the individual's relationship to God - and you can't get more fundamentally different.

There is no dispute on that!

>>I am Hindu, raised in India and living in India and I think, even if one doesn't agree with all of Doniger's conclusions one has to respect her knowledge and scholarship - which is immense and far exceeds that of many practicing Hindus, including myself.

You are welcome to respect her knowledge, whether or not you are a psuedonym for her, or one of her acolytes, but please don't tell us what to do. We'd deal with her on merit.
Ajit Tendulkar
Seattle, United States
Nov 05, 2009 11:58 PM
106
>> Just because Doniger is not a hindu or an Indian, others attack her work. This isn't fair. The hindu corpus is large enough to defend or attack ANY viewpoint.

>>This is true. Thanks for writing a sensible post on the subject.

What a sucker and a suck-up!
Ajit Tendulkar
Seattle, United States
Nov 05, 2009 11:57 PM
105
>>you lose what little credibility you have with such calumnious nonsense....

Hurts, does it, when you are paid back in your own coin?

>>all characterising is done on the substantive basis (or lack of) of the protest itself....

At least I see no substantive basis for reading Aditi as Hindutva

>>This is about proper understanding of texts that are a literary treasure and a heritage of human understanding...people who see these texts as more than that are welcome to their views as long as they don't interfere with the intellectual feast they present to others...


That is exactly the point, that Doniger despite all her avowed claims is actually quite an ignoramus, and thus says the biggest Sanskritist, Michael Witzel (which puts paid to all of "Anwaar"'s effusions as well, since Witzel is no Hindu and far from being a Hindutva supporter)

>>The problem is the entire book is an angry rant of people who know very little about their own religious texts and resent the fact that others know more about it than they do.

And you say that because you have read the book?

>>Nobody argues with Ms. Banerjee's right to her view point. But the moment she shares her viewpoint in public, she invites comment and criticism of her viewpoint.

Exactly, but one hasn't seen any substantive rebuttal other than whines and accusations!

>>what holes?

No point trying to converse with one all of whose orifices seem to be filled with horse manure
Ajit Tendulkar
Seattle, United States
Nov 05, 2009 11:11 PM
104
Namratha,

>> Just because Doniger is not a hindu or an Indian, others attack her work. This isn't fair. The hindu corpus is large enough to defend or attack ANY viewpoint.

This is true. Thanks for writing a sensible post on the subject.
Anwaar
Dallas, United States
Nov 05, 2009 08:23 PM
103
"Lastly, Hinduism isn't consistent. It may be so for the diaspora, but for me (and many others) who live in India, it embodies many contradictions, oppositions and paradoxes. This is the beauty of it."

Modern Hindus, including perhaps NRI's and PIO's most of all, are interested in the devotional, cultural and meditative/contemplative character of Hinduism as a way of giving balance and spirituality to their lives. They are not interested in all these intellectual wranglings about the many versions of the Ramayana or the absolute correct definition of a particular word or phrase in a particular chapter of a certain book.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Nov 05, 2009 08:19 PM
102
" would Vinod Mehta do a piece on the Mallu sleaze movies that Kerala is producing. I heard that Mallus in gulf offer their wives to sheikhs so that they win favors from them..."

Mommy, look at me, I'm a great secular progressive. I defend Moslems all day long, even going to the extent of defending Pakistani ideology and the Pakistani military's actions in East Pakistan. But I also ridicule South Indians to show off how fair minded and secular I am.

Good show!
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Nov 05, 2009 07:36 PM
101
I have Wendy Doniger's book in entirety, and after reading Banerjee's piece suspect that she HASN'T EVEN READ Doniger's book, and is ONLY responding to the earlier interview outlook published. This isn't fair. If she is going to critcize Doniger's work or research, she should read the work, in question (here it is the THE HINDUS) to draw an informed conclusion. It isn't right or ethical to do otherwise.

Page 509 of Doniger's book, The Hindus, talks about the Bharati Madanamishra episode thaat Bannerjee also alludes to. 520 - Queen Chulala and her husband King Shikihidvaja. Bannerjee in this article makes it sound like Doniger is unaware of these examples - in fact she carefully discusses these in her work.
Doniger's point is that there may be scriptural references to women discussing sex with men, but Doniger's point is that these scriptural refs exist - but do NOT translate into social realities/ socially acceptable norms.

- Regarding the 'canonical valmiki Ramayana' and the Rambha-Ravana incident, I have to say that there are MANY manuscripts of even the Valmiki Ramayana out there, with intriguing differences (in one, apparently, in Book 5 (sundara Kanda) Hanuman 'ejaculates' when seeing the beautiful women in Ravana's harem) - is that a scribe's mistake? or an interpolation, perhaps a detail in a folklore/oral Ramayana that crept into the text?

- It seems like the writer of this article, - an 'american..educated in Boston' is part of the Diaspora. She doesn't live in India, it appears. Lots of people write about hinduism and come to generalizations - and many of them are Hindus who know far less about hinduism than Doniger does. Just because Doniger is not a hindu or an Indian, others attack her work. This isn't fair. The hindu corpus is large enough to defend or attack ANY viewpoint.

- Bannerjee is nitpicking on the sex addict front. I think most of us agree that Dasaratha was consumed with lust for Kaikeyi, and made some rather unwise decisions on that front - so what is the writer's issue with? Simply Doniger's use of the term 'sex addict' in characterizing Dasaratha? Perhaps the epic it self doesn't use the term, but it definately comes close. What issue does Bannerjee have with Dasaratha having negative traits? The epic clearly makes him out to be a flawed character. Why does Bannerjee want to whitewash him and not acknowledge his flaws?

- Ram also ditches Sita in Uttara Kanda - so if anyone has to to talk about Sita's banishment, one is going ot have to cite the Uttara kanda. Doniger isn't arguing about an ur-text, or canonical, original, authentic Ramayana - that isn't the issue in her scholarship at all! So she wouldn't have any issues in pointing out that Uttara Kanda is (and this is accepted by most scholars) is a later addition, while discussing the literary characteristics of the same - she ISN'T contradicting herself, as this reviewer suggests.

- Lastly, Hinduism isn't consistent. It may be so for the diaspora, but for me (and many others) who live in India, it embodies many contradictions, oppositions and paradoxes. This is the beauty of it. For example dualism and non-dualism (dvaita and advaita) schools of thought both exist in Hinduism, but result in very different conceptions of the universe and of the individual's relationship to God - and you can't get more fundamentally different.

I am Hindu, raised in India and living in India and I think, even if one doesn't agree with all of Doniger's conclusions one has to respect her knowledge and scholarship - which is immense and far exceeds that of many practicing Hindus, including myself.
Namratha K
Bangalore, India
Nov 05, 2009 04:35 PM
100
AUGUSTUS:

I mean, would Vinod Mehta be equally ready to give space to Ibn Warraq, a stern critic of Islam and its founder?
Momeen Rashid
Delhi, India
Nov 05, 2009 04:10 PM
99
AUGUSTUS AAA:

The reql problem is not Doniger, who, as you say, surely has a right to her interpretation of any text, but the imbalance in the Indian media's presentation of her views.

Her interpretation clearly seems to many Hindus to show disrespect to Hindu deities. That is her business. But the Indian media is ever-ready to publicise such writers. They are on the other hand extremely wary of giving space to those who interpret the founder of Islam in a disrespectful way.

So you get a marked bias in the way Hinduism and Islam are portrayed in India. Given that India is a country where the two religious communities are often in conflict, and where Hindus are also in conflict with Christian missionaries, this bias provokes anger.

Hence all this hullaballoo.

Let the Indian media be more even-handed in its attitudes to the two faiths and things would be calmer.
Momeen Rashid
Delhi, India
Nov 05, 2009 10:50 AM
98
>>"Augustus", the defender of paedophile padres on this very site in the past,

you lose what little credibility you have with such calumnious nonsense....

>>shows once again why people like him and Kumar are the biggerst supporters of the 'Hindutvawadis'.

as proved by the warm hugs and wishes from such quarters!

>>By characterising all who protest the likes of Doniger as "Hindutva" or "Chaddis" or "saffron"

all characterising is done on the substantive basis (or lack of) of the protest itself....

>>they actually allow the Hindutvawadis to appropriate all such opposition and claim to be the defenders of the faith, about which they actually have not more than a clue.

This is about proper understanding of texts that are a literary treasure and a heritage of human understanding...people who see these texts as more than that are welcome to their views as long as they don't interfere with the intellectual feast they present to others...

>>The review in the Hindustan Times was of the same piece. It did not take up any one specific instance from the book to show the problems with it, if any.

The problem is the entire book is an angry rant of people who know very little about their own religious texts and resent the fact that others know more about it than they do.

>>On the other hand, this article by Aditi Banerjee actually joins issue with the specifics mentioned by Doniger in her interview.

Nobody argues with Ms. Banerjee's right to her view point. But the moment she shares her viewpoint in public, she invites comment and criticism of her viewpoint.

>>Frankly, Doniger comes across as just someone interested in sensationalising things for the sake of selling her book. As a strategy, it has been perfectly executed.

Her talents extend beyond deep knowledge of ancient texts and a lively style of communicating it...

>>Her opponents have played right into her hands. At the best, they would get dismissed as "Hindutvawadis" despite having punched big holes in her so-called "scholarship".

what holes?
Augustus AAA
Pune, India
Nov 05, 2009 02:36 AM
97
"Augustus", the defender of paedophile padres on this very site in the past, shows once again why people like him and Kumar are the biggerst supporters of the 'Hindutvawadis'. By characterising all who protest the likes of Doniger as "Hindutva" or "Chaddis" or "saffron" they actually allow the Hindutvawadis to appropriate all such opposition and claim to be the defenders of the faith, about which they actually have not more than a clue. The review in the Hindustan Times was of the same piece. It did not take up any one specific instance from the book to show the problems with it, if any. On the other hand, this article by Aditi Banerjee actually joins issue with the specifics mentioned by Doniger in her interview. Frankly, Doniger comes across as just someone interested in sensationalising things for the sake of selling her book. As a strategy, it has been perfectly executed. Her opponents have played right into her hands. At the best, they would get dismissed as "Hindutvawadis" despite having punched big holes in her so-called "scholarship".
Ajit Tendulkar
Seattle, United States
Nov 04, 2009 10:07 AM
96
Then we should be as quick to label people red, green, white or black, depending on what they say. Pejoratively, of course.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Nov 04, 2009 04:19 AM
95
>>Just because a few people think criticism of Doniger is evidence of 'right wing Hindu saffron etc' , doesn't mean it is.

Under what objective circumstances would you agree it is 'right wing Hindu saffron"?

>>Also, since when did 'saffron' become a pejorative term?

Ever since it was co-opted by those who deserve pejoration...
Augustus AAA
Pune, India
Nov 03, 2009 11:48 PM
94
>> since when did 'saffron' become a pejorative term? Saffron is the colour of the Buddhist monks' robes, for one

It is also the color of some people who believe in violence in the name of religion mixed with politics.
Kumar
Bangalore, India
Nov 03, 2009 11:34 PM
93
"Second, the link shows others think Banerjee's book is also the work of the "right-wing Hindutva." game, set & match."

How so? And game, set and match to whom? Just because a few people think criticism of Doniger is evidence of 'right wing Hindu saffron etc' , doesn't mean it is.

Also, since when did 'saffron' become a pejorative term? Saffron is the colour of the Buddhist monks' robes, for one.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Nov 03, 2009 08:33 PM
92
>>Typical pinko strategy: when they lose an argument, they start name-calling:

such as "pinko"?

>>Witness the pathetic review of the book in the Hindustan Times that is nothing other than a string of ad hominem and insinuations.

And the safro strategy is: claiming ad hominem (surprised at use of such big words) is "some great refutation"! The world awaits with bated breath for your learned safro review.

>>And now by posting a link to that,'Augustus' and 'Anwaar' insinuate and imply as if that is some major refutation!

Banerjee claims Doniger "falsely and unfairly brands all of her critics as right-wing Hindutva fundamentalists." First, Doniger never characterized "all of her critics." Second, the link shows others think Banerjee's book is also the work of the "right-wing Hindutva." game, set & match.

>>What a bunch of immature and prejudiced losers.

Next to a mature and prejudiced loser like you, I stand in awe.
Augustus AAA
Pune, India
Nov 03, 2009 08:16 PM
91
>>but your twisted,crooked words are very clear to read.

I am afraid I cannot return the complement since your words are very circular and self-serving on those brief occasions they are clear to read.

>>you wrote:

I didn't write it. Instead, I quoted from a respectable translation to show Banerjee's claim that she quotes from a Canto in Book 6 doesn't appear in the Dutt edition of Ramayana. The quote allegedly goes into great deal of specificity of "Hence, afraid (as I am) of his curse, I do not violently put Sita, a princess of the Videha territory, on my charming bed by force."

So your own translation of "humiliation" for "outrage" doesn't solve anything. However it is translated, Banerjee shows no evidence that this sloka was part of Book 6 as written by Valmiki with no subsequent redactions and Banerjee's alleged quote doesn't appear in Book 6.

As for the passage I quoted, as you noted, it was Ravana speaking. And he was speculating (perchance) whether Vedavati was born daughter of Janaka. He doesn't know for sure and neither do we.
Augustus AAA
Pune, India
Nov 03, 2009 04:33 PM
90
AUGUSTUS AAA

YOUR name may not be augustus
but your twisted,crooked words are very clear to read.

you wrote:
“And I was also cursed by Vedavati, who was formerly outraged by me. And she is (perchance) born as the exalted daughter of Janaka. And what had also been uttered by Uma and Nandiswara and Rambha and Varuna’s daughter hath come to pass.”


Read the following sloka.

shapto.aham vedavatyaa cha yadaa saa dharSitaa puraa ||
seyam siitaa mahaabhaagaa jaataa janakanandinii |
6-60-10

10. aham= I; shaptaH= was cursed; vedavatyaa= by Vedavati; yadaa= when; saa= she; dharSitaa= was humiliated; puraa= before; saa= that; iyam= same Vedavati; jaataa= is born; siitaa= as Seetha; mahaabhaagaa= the highly fortunate one; janakanandinii= and the daughter of Janaka.

" I (RAVANA) was formerly cursed by Vedavati when she was humiliated by me. The same Vedavati is born as the highly fortunate Seetha the daughter of Janaka."

the word "humiliation" means insulting . Ravana insulted Vedavati who was conducting a ritual , She was pulled by her hair. She was being harassed by Ravana for some time before.

She felt terribly bad that Ravana touched her hair , so much that she cuts off her hair and throws it into ritual fire.
She curses that she would take birth again and in her next birth she would be the cause of his burning city and his death and then jumps in to fire and dies.
According to puranic story ,Vedavati took birth as Sita.
But this sloka as I quoted above, is only from the introspection of Ravana as to what might be his most humiliating defeat in the hands of simple man RAMA.
(ravana spoke that sloka)
Rakshas Ravan returns from battle field ,terribly bruised,humiliated . But he was also surprised as to how an ordinary man with one arrow ,could defeat him.
And then he starts remembering many curses and one of that is above sloka.
bowenpalle venuraja gopal rao.
warangal, india
Nov 03, 2009 03:15 PM
89
Typical pinko strategy: when they lose an argument, they start name-calling: 'Chaddi' and 'Sanghi'. Witness the pathetic review of the book in the Hindustan Times that is nothing other than a string of ad hominem and insinuations. And now by posting a link to that,'Augustus' and 'Anwaar' insinuate and imply as if that is some major refutation! What a bunch of immature and prejudiced losers.
Ajit Tendulkar
Seattle, United States
Nov 03, 2009 11:21 AM
88
Shyamal, whatever the etymology of the word "Hindu", the underlying reality of what the word signifies or represents is in the here and now. And that reality is the representation of the divine as Ram, Krishna, Vishnu, Shiva et al. There's nothing unreal or alien about that. "Vaishnava" and "Saiva" or Saivite are certainly legitimate, as words to describe people who revere God as Vishnu or Shiva, as opposed to Allah or Christ. Thanks.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Nov 03, 2009 05:41 AM
87
Ganapathy Wrote: >> the oft repeated caste and twice born comedies not by birth as again started commencing and can any one say who in history r the lowercastes who became brahmins. is it adisankara/dronacharya/ramanuja or any of the sankaracharyas till date. kindly list the temples were brahmins who were born as dalits but became brahmins or priests.>>>>
Sandy replied:: Ganapathy, So who was Valmiki who wrote the Ramayana which the Brahmins revere? Was he not from the supposed lower castes? What about Vyasa who was from fishing community, again from one of the supposed lower castes?

##The Ramayana was copied by Valmiki from Dasharath Jataka of the Buddha, whom the Brahmins made the tenth avataar of Vishnu, just like they had included thousands of other tribal gods into their fold to reap benefit of preisthood confined to thier class. The word Hindu was not a religious word. It was secular in origin. Indeed¤ there is no such word as "hindu" in the entire Vedic literature. The word “hindu” occurs for the first time in the Avesta of the ancient Iranians. To start with¤ the word seems to have been used for provinces and the people in the vicinity of the Sindhu. It is derived from the word Sindhu¤ which is the name of a major river that flows in the northwestern region of the Indian subcontinent. In the southeast asian countries indians were known as "shin-tu". However¤ the word "hindu" was not in vogue among indians until the advent of muslim rule. Until then it was the outsiders¿ word for indians. It was the muslims who first began to use the word both in a descriptive sense and a religious sense. And it was only during the muslim rule indians began to call themselves hindus. Later¤ when the British established their rule¤ they started calling the local religions collectively under the name of Brahminic Hinduism. It is merely a complex and contradictory body of utterances, writings and mythology. The so-called caste system is well doped inside Hinduism as a perfect complex network of interdependent,inter-woven yet separated heriditary, endogamous, occupationally specialized and hierarchically ordered social groups. One neither chek in nor check out, but it gets automatically alloted by birth.Only option is to get rid of Hinduism to get rid of caste. Thats the uniquness of caste mechanism.
If Hindu belief system expects to emerge as a modern panacea for the ills of Indian society.. it has to make a concerted effort, starting with its so-called pontiffs Sankaracharyas,the conservative Vaishnavite Brahmins and above all,the three spokes of the Trishool: RSS-VHP-Bajrang Dal to educate their followers,their devotees to shed their cate appendage, throw away the so-called sacred thread, allow all castes to produce priests who can perform pooja,allow castes to inter-marry.The so-called caste system is well doped inside Hinduism as a perfect complex network of interdependent inter-woven yet separated heriditary¤ endogamous occupationally specialized¤ and hierarchically ordered social groups.
One neither chek in nor check out¤but it gets automatically alloted by birth.Only option is to get rid of Hinduism to get rid of caste. Thats the uniquness of caste mechanism.

Wendy Doniger'r earlier books like "The Origins of Evil in Hindu Mythology" published in 1976 deals with lot of such heady cocktails of sex and perversions in Brahminic Hinduism but her later day publications are more of a compromise, after she was confronted by a lot of Brahminic Hindu lobbies in U.S. and other parts of the world...
Shyamal Barua
kolkata, India
Nov 03, 2009 01:51 AM
86
Criticizing and observing the flaws in an argument, are quite different from 'muzzling'. Muzzling implies attempting strongly to silence, short of using violence, but not always excluding violence, either.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Nov 03, 2009 01:39 AM
85
Varun,

>> How is Aditi 'muzzling' anybody? Neither she nor Malhotra are associated with the so called Sanghis.

http://www.hindustan...Article1-235591.aspx
Anwaar
Dallas, United States
Nov 02, 2009 10:43 PM
84
ADITI BANERJEE exposed the pseudo-scholarship of the self-styled Indologist / historian. It is a pity this scholarly rebuttal will not make it to the print edition.
U. Narayana Das
Hyderabad, India
Nov 02, 2009 08:57 PM
83
"Muzzling" -what a joke. Just try having this open discussion in Saudi, Iran or Pakistan, and that too with a fraction of the detail( of personages or books) that take place in India. And see how far you get.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Nov 02, 2009 08:42 PM
82
"The trouble is, Western academics looking for a fast buck and academic notoriety think it is safe to insult Hindus, but are extremely careful to flatter Muslims."

Very astute observation. The Moslems are larger in number, many Moslem majority countries have oil, and at least one Moslem majority country, Pakistan, plays a key role as proxy, arms conduit, arms testing country. Don't look for lofty principles in this grotesque game.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Nov 02, 2009 08:37 PM
81
"this group of 'muzzlers' led by Rajiv Malhotra, Aditi Banerjee and others. It seems that the same war between the JNU scholars and the sanghi writers that is going on in India is being replicated in the U.S."

How is Aditi 'muzzling' anybody? Neither she nor Malhotra are associated with the so called Sanghis.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Nov 02, 2009 05:35 PM
80
Thank you, Ms. ADITI. Wish all these Wendy Donigers who masquerade as scholars and researchers were as thorough as you in their homework. More important, wish they had some moral fibre.
Ramana
Hyderabad, India
Nov 02, 2009 02:10 PM
79
Were these books ever meant to be religious scriptures,if so do they meet the standard of being called so?
Did these books provided any guidlines to bring social changes inthe society and get rid of many of the prevailing evils?
Take the example of a place Warangal. A village , Wangapad is totally dependent on flesh trade for generations and they do not have a shame for it.Did any social worker worked there to get rid of this evil?
ahmad pasha
long island, United States
Nov 02, 2009 10:49 AM
78
>>>>>>>>If foreigners and non-Hindus like Doniger make fast bucks by putting an obscene interpretation on anything Hindu, then only the Hindus are to blame.
No well-off Hindu family wants to let their son or daughter specialize in Sanskrit studies.
There is nothing in the least surprising about that.

Middle class Hindus want Hinduism respected but do not want to make the least sacrifice to ensure that.

All they are capable of is the throwing of one egg at some elderly Jewish lady.
Momeen Rashid
Delhi, India<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Mr.Momeen Rashid ,I think you should first come out with your real name. You don't need fictious name because you are speaking truth here, first get rid of fear.

Now, as I read in TOI ,I have understood that Intelligence agencies are particularly going through these vituperative, scandalous, blasphemy of Gods because Intelligence agencies feel that terrorist gangs are communicating each other through these blogs,chats,comments of blasphemy, in coded sentences or double meaning language.

Without motive nobody is going to the tiresome work of blasphemy ,since it is not pleasant even to their own conscience.

First let the Hindus read their own itihasas RAMAYAN and MAHABHARAT in English at least let alone learning Sanskrit. So that at east they will be able to perceive where exactly incidents are misrepresented, quoted out of context , pulled out of a situation and dressed up in an entirely different scenario to boost up their argument. A criminal mind, corrupted to the core , speaks evil language once you feed it with money.
bowenpalle venuraja gopal rao.
warangal, india
Nov 02, 2009 09:23 AM
77
>>>>>>You are completely wrong. Ms Doniger refused to have a debate with Rajiv Malhotra. It your high priestess who is turning away from an open forum debate where neither side can censor each other.

Dear Mr President, Let me first express my warm but belated congratulations to you for getting the Nobel Peace Prize. While many think that you do not deserve it, I think that you deserve it more than several others who got it earlier. I also thank you for celebrating the Indian festival Diwali in the White House as it boosts the morale of many Indian-Hindus living in the United States and other Euro-American countries.

However, I would have liked it if you had sought the presence of a Dalit Shaivite priest along with a Brahmin Vaishnavaite priest (who was present with three Vaishnava namams on his forehead, a clean shaven head and pattu vastram) to promote race and caste equality.

Diwali is celebrated in south India as a festival of lamps because a so-called rakshasa, Narakasura, was killed by Krishna’s wife Satyabhama on that day. The Hindus believe that Narakasura represents darkness (even the blacks of America and Dalit-Bahujans of India were believed to have represented darkness historically), his death gets celebrated by lighting lamps.

Indian environmentalists, many of whom acquired their scientific degrees from the best universities of your country, do not want to study the consequences of Diwali celebrations and firecracker on the health, environment and infrastructure of the nation. They all seem to think that all these firecrackers are meant to destroy Narakasura who, incidentally, happens to be dark-skinned, like you and me.

http://www.asianage....the-white-house.aspx
B Prabhu
Mangalore, India
Nov 02, 2009 02:04 AM
76
If foreigners and non-Hindus like Doniger make fast bucks by putting an obscene interpretation on anything Hindu, then only the Hindus are to blame.

No well-off Hindu family wants to let their son or daughter specialise in Sanskrit studies. That would only lower their value in the marriage market. No, they want their offspring to go to USA to study medicine or computing.

Naturally, that means Hindu studies in prestigious universities are monopolised by non-Hindus, who sometimes try to sensationalise their work by claiming Hinduism is all about sex.

There is nothing in the least surprising about that.

Middle class Hindus want Hinduism respected but do not want to make the least sacrifice to ensure that.

All they are capable of is the throwing of one egg at some elderly Jewish lady.
Momeen Rashid
Delhi, India
Nov 01, 2009 04:54 PM
75
". It seems that the same war between the JNU scholars and the sanghi writers that is going on in India is being replicated in the U.S."
Anwaar


Windy casts aspersions on Hindu Dieties.So any body criticising Windy is a Sanghi ? Well you profess to be a Secular .
happy ram ambalvi
Ambala Cantt, India
Nov 01, 2009 12:59 PM
74
>>>Hare Rama Hare Krishna
I would have like to post on the main article, but ....to write here about Ramayana.

Ramayana has all aspects of faith.

Yoga Vashishta, where Rama goes to Vashishta for sagely advice is the foundation of Advaita. The surrender of Vibhishana is the like Ramanujas call for surrender to Vishnu or the Supreme God. Hanuman's devotion is the true Dvaitic devotion...........
….... if you have not bathed in Sanskrit language right from childhood. Will write later.
krishnadas
Adelaide, Australia<<<<<<<<<<<<


Your post is one of the good posts I have read here,

where so much spleen is vented out to satisfy the inferiority complex that one is suffering from being frustrated with one own life.

You have totally omitted Sita.

Swami Vivekananda once said as part of a lecture that if human beings are terminated from this earth...... and survived only in some remote island by chance...., even these groups of people would talk about greatness of Sita.
Such is the intensity of the story of Sita,
due to her unflinching faith in herself, her stead fastness, her chastity,purity of mind and purpose , her total disinterest in material possessions of life.....".

Sita has a boon from the God of Fire,
this can burn anyone who even touches her with lust and if that were against her will.
But that is not important this boon can prove to be a curse,if her own mind is polluted by thoughts of lust , God of Fire will burn her body to ashes if she touches fire.

Sita was subjected to extreme torture.

The first one to try to abduct Sita and run away was
Rakshasa Viradha.

Rakshashas are not demons. Though the term "demon" could be used to describe their actions. Rakshas in many cases were well read and were devotees of Shiva and to posses what they want they go to any extent. Simply put they were attracted by women and Gold and hence they were not "demons" exactly.

In Aranayakanda, in the very first few sargas, Viradha makes an attempt and lifting Sita up ,he runs for some distance.
When finally overpowered by Rama and Laxmana , he reveals that he was a devotee of Goddess Laxmi in his past birth(he remembers his past life briefly when Rama sets his foot on his throat) and due to curse from Kubera he was now a Rakshas.
He begs Rama to bury him alive and Rama buries him alive !!! , The boons from Gods, makes Viradha,recover from any wound from any weapon,so he would not die.

The next attempt is well known because it was Rakshasha King Ravana who lifted Sita in his arms , exactly the way Viradha , did in the beginning of Aranya Kanda.

Ravana also was cursed in heavens and now a rakshasha Kinng in Lanka. He also suffered from greed , the tendencies from past birth, just as Viradha suffered.

Just before, death Viradha realized his past birth and explains, how he was very late in attending to a sacrifice for Goddess Laxmi, and ensuing Kubera's curse, which was performing those Vedic rites.

Now, Ravana knew the powers of Sita, all his ideas were to turn the mind of Sita.
In his first conversation with Sita on reaching Lanka he was terribly frustrated, finally says " You shall understand, I can cut you in to pieces with my sword and eat you !!!

He contrives through a best magician in the world, a trick that worked but in the end, only tormented Sita.

He contrived a beheaded RAMA, put the head of Raman in a box and shows this to Sita, personally (along with magician).
Sita sees, believes it was the head of RAMA and lets out a heart rending cry. She sobs and sobs without any help from rashasha women surrounding her.
Then says to Ravan, that now he should kill her also, since she wants to unite with her husband above in the heavens.
Ravana thus , disappointed goes away.
But the magic trick disappears the moment Rakshas Ravan goes away from the scene.

Next Ravana's son Indrajit contrives another plan.

This time it was a night war. Indrajit lights torches on his chariot. He makes a doll of Sita, uses all his mimicry gift and he himself was a magician, well learnt in the arts.
He pulls Sita up by her hair, (a doll) in the front part of the chariot, and for Hanuman and other monkeys to see, he stabbed her several times with a long sword. She (doll) cries "Rama ! Rama!! " sobbing her death cries.
Finally he cuts her from left shoulder to the right side of her abdomen and pushes the dead body, from Chariot.
Even Hanuman with his extraordinary powers to see objects lost, or sees them from great distances, with a disciplined and controlled mind, lost his cool, breaks down.
The rumour that Sita was dead , spread fast. It reaches Rama. They searched for the dead body, in the din and dan of battle field.

This finally leads to weakness of Rama and falls down in the battle unable to withstand the onslought of Indrajit with best weapons supported by hundreds of armoured commendos.
Rama falls down much before , Laxman fell.
Both Rama and Laxmana were as good as dead.

Ravana again tries to change her mind :

He orders the Rakshas women to take Sita, to battle field, to show RAMA's dead body.

This time, Ravana ,indeed, believed that Rama was dead.
In the battle field , early in the morning,
for Sita's cries and sobs there was no end.

Her guard Rakshas Trijata, with her ugly face, meant to abuse Sita, also starts weeping.
It was Trijata , who says that Rama seems to be still alive. She finds that he was still breathing ,though a it was very slow and very low one.
In Sita's own words, that there was not an inch of space where her husband's body was not pierced by darts,arrows and weapons.

Thus goes on the story of Sita.

The fire in to which Sita walked finally at the end of Ramayan,
after which she comes back, only when God of Fire Agni, himself accompanies her back to her husband, who was weeping over his misfortune.

The story of Sita, survives across nations ,across cultures in spite of a great difference in the perception of womanhood .
bowenpalle venuraja gopal rao.
warangal, india
Nov 01, 2009 12:12 PM
73
Augustus,

Thanks for the link to HT's review of the book co-authored by Aditi banerjee. The reviewer says, "You must support academic freedom. Scholarly debate is only enriching; muzzling is dehumanising." She seems to specially single out Wendy Doniger as one of the scholars of Hinduism who is targetted by this group of 'muzzlers' led by Rajiv Malhotra, Aditi Banerjee and others. It seems that the same war between the JNU scholars and the sanghi writers that is going on in India is being replicated in the U.S.
Anwaar
Dallas, United States
Nov 01, 2009 08:42 AM
72
AUGUSTUS AAA:

Circuses are fun. Much better than Masses.

By "you all" I meant the rather dreary, pedantic, unimaginative followers of the proseletysing Jewish cults called Christianity and Islam.
Momeen Rashid
Delhi, India
Nov 01, 2009 08:22 AM
71
>>No Hindu who copies aspects of other religions will say that WHAT HE IS COPYING is inferior.

Of course! thus, inferiority is determined by an ex post facto decision to copy as opposed to a coherent theory or merit (or lack of it).

>>We Hindus are too flexible for you all.

little too flexible to withstand a stiff breeze; but who is this mysterious "you all"?

>>That is why it's fun to be a Hindu: the others are always less flexible, always easy to catch out and make fools of.

I agree flexibility is extremely important...for circus performers!
Augustus AAA
Pune, India
Nov 01, 2009 08:04 AM
70
How nice of the British to go to the trouble of inventing Hinduism circa 1850 so that Augustus AAA is completely baffled and frustrated by it in 2009 !!!!

A big hug for you, O British.
Momeen Rashid
Delhi, India
Nov 01, 2009 07:56 AM
69
AUGUSTUS AAA:

No Hindu who copies aspects of other religions will say that WHAT HE IS COPYING is inferior.

Pick and choose, baby, pick and mix.

We Hindus are too flexible for you all.

That is why it's fun to be a Hindu: the others are always less flexible, always easy to catch out and make fools of.

Heh heh heh
Momeen Rashid
Delhi, India
Nov 01, 2009 07:44 AM
68
>>Why should Hindus not copy Christianity and Islam if they feel like it?

Nothing....although copying something inferior seems rather strange.....
Augustus AAA
Pune, India
Nov 01, 2009 07:40 AM
67
AUGUSTUS AAA:

Many thanks for the reference.

But I do not worry about Hindu nationalists making their case for Hinduism. So what?

Speaking up for your religion does not make YOU right wing; so why are Hindus rightwing if they defend Hinduism?

I agree there should be freedom of debate. The trouble is, Western academics looking for a fast buck and academic notoriety think it is safe to insult Hindus, but are extremely careful to flatter Muslims. This is self-interested cowardice. They earn no sympathy from me.

I see no reason at all why Hindus should not unite and robustly fight to keep India. Christians and Muslims have scores of countries that are officially Christian.

It's happening whether you like it or not. It's the wave of the future.
Momeen Rashid
Delhi, India
Nov 01, 2009 07:22 AM
66
http://www.hindustan...Article1-235591.aspx

Here's a review of the book this author coedited....
Augustus AAA
Pune, India
Nov 01, 2009 06:20 AM
65
AuGUSTUS:

As for half-educated twits inventing Hinduism,according to Doniger it was the British who invented it. Were they half-wits?

May I note that Mohammed was illiterate and Jesus' first follwers were fishermen?
Momeen Rashid
Delhi, India
Nov 01, 2009 06:12 AM
64
AUGUSTUS:

If certain Hindu schools get more following at any one time, then that is the right and business of the Hindus.

They may claim to be authoritative. The real test is, what sort of following they get. In Hinduism, every school claims authority, but, typically (and maddeningly for Jewish religionists like Muslims and Christians) they all tend to get along with each other, and even make a united front against outside Judaics.

Even Nehru, suppoosedly an agnostic, recommends the Vedantic ideal to India in 1960.
Momeen Rashid
Delhi, India
Nov 01, 2009 06:04 AM
63
AUGUSTUS:

Why should Hindus not copy Christianity and Islam if they feel like it? It seems very anti-Christian and anti-Islamic to forbid Hindus to copy thise religions. It is what one expects from the likes of Bal Thackeray.
Momeen Rashid
Delhi, India
Nov 01, 2009 06:03 AM
62
>>I am not sure what your problem with that is?
>>So what?

Nothing...they should be upfront about it rather than have some pretensions to more authoritative and scholarly literary criticism.

>>>Even if Hinduism started this very day, it will have to be respected as a serious religion when a billion people profess it.

Regardless how many people follow it, the ideas it contains and their implications and its internal coherence is of intellectual interest to me.

>>It has many versions, but its follwers accept a unity in diversity.

If so, claiming to have one authoritative version run counter to history and facts...

>>Incidentally, what is wrong if Chaddi boys and girls start Hinduism?

because Hinduism has enough problems on its own...without half educated twits adding more problems to it.

>>And why should Hindus be "right wing" if they speak for their religion?

they can speak....and I can point out why they speak nonsense
Augustus AAA
Pune, India
Nov 01, 2009 05:55 AM
61
AUGUSTUS:

The varieties of the Ramayana may bewilder you. So what?

They are all variants of the same story.

Hindus have a right to their different stories. The fact that it surprises followers of pedantic Judaic religions is neither here nor there.

One can question if Americans have the right to call themselves one nation. After all, they are so bewideringly different.

But they think they are united, and that is their decision.

The fact that Hindus believing they are united frustrates your missionary hopes of taking over India are neither here nor there.

Hard luck.
Momeen Rashid
Delhi, India
Nov 01, 2009 05:49 AM
60
AUGUSTUS AAA:

Why should Hindus not be allowed to "stich together an identity" in order to prevent India's takeover by Islam or Christianity?

I am not sure what your problem with that is?

So what?

Even if Hinduism started this very day, it will have to be respected as a serious religion when a billion people profess it. It has many versions, but its follwers accept a unity in diversity.


Incidentally, what is wrong if Chaddi boys and girls start Hinduism? Who started Chtrstianity? Did they not wear chaddis? Just curious.

And why should Hindus be "right wing" if they speak for their religion? You defend Christianity. Are you "right wing"?

What is your gripe?
Momeen Rashid
Delhi, India
Nov 01, 2009 05:32 AM
59
>>This Aditi bannerjee is an apologist for right wing Hindus

If true, she's a bad apologist. The first alleged misrepresentation is Doniger’s claim Ravana’s curse in Book 7 was an idea that later crept into Ramayana. The criticism is premised on an unproven assumption that Book 6 as we have it NOW was EXACTLY as Valmiki wrote it with no subsequent redactions AND that there was supposedly a quote in Book 6 relating to Ravana’s curse. Whenever a right wing hindu apologist starts “almost universally recognized as part..,” one’s skeptical antennae should go up.

First, in the 1893 version edited by Manmatha Nath Dutt (rector, Keshub academy) doesn’t even mention the alleged quote of Book 6. The closest thing is:

“And I was also cursed by Vedavati, who was formerly outraged by me. And she is (perchance) born as the exalted daughter of Janaka. And what had also been uttered by Uma and Nandiswara and Rambha and Varuna’s daughter hath come to pass.”

Buried in a footnote, Varuna’s daughter is “Punjikasthala” and respective curses by these women. Banerjee shows no proof that Book 6 we have now is exactly as Valmiki wrote it without any redactions. Based on such weak reasoning, Banerjee claims to uncover a great contradiction when it actually doesn’t even rise to the level of nitpicking.

As for the sex-addict claims, Banerjee disputes existence of the word “kama-sakta.” Assuming it exists, she reads numerous other interpretations into it. Banerjee seems to allow Books 1 and 7 (in their entirety) as interpolations while Doniger claims (in the interview at least) the curse of Ravana was added later to provide a motivation why he may not have molested Sita while she was his guest.

Here’s an example of Banerjee’s amateurish handling of textual criticism. She quotes the following translation:

“Aged and (therefore) helpless, deprived of my presence, what will he do, dominated as he is by his passion for Kaikeyi and who has fallen into the clutches of Kaikeyi.”

Banerjee’s says, “As with the phrases described above (uttered by Lakshmana in anger), Kama-atma does not necessarily mean “entirely consumed by kama.” What about the word right before it? “dominated”? So, Banerjee focuses on a word and chooses an alternative lexicographical meaning without relating the word to a previous word “dominated.” Doesn’t the dictionary definition of “dominated” means being under the control of?

Then, Banerjee opines, “Falling prey to love (Rama’s description) or being overcome by lust (Lakshmana’s description) does not make one a sex addict; if it did, then any of us could be accused of the same!” If the context of the text were a single lustful incident, then that’s a plausible interpretation. However, the context is a general relationship that Lakshmana’s absence can’t counteract. Given phrases from Book 2 of Lakshmana (who himself was reincarnation of ¼ of Vishnu via Sumitra) that “king with perverted mind,” “who is outraged by sensual enjoyments” and “who is possessed of passion,” a non-clinical description of sex addiction is perfectly defensible.

Next, her discussion about temple construction is as confused and convoluted as it can get. Doniger was answering the chronological disconnect between when Ramayana was allegedly composed and when temples dedicated to Rama began appearing. Doninger claims, Ramayana became more straight-laced and puritanical with its text being emended to neutralize ayodhyan suspicions and give a plausible reason why Ravana couldn’t have had sex with Sita etc. A more raw description of Sita’s sexuality wouldn’t jibe in a public place like a temple with a deified Rama.

Next, Banerjee states, “It is misleading to say, in a scholarly context, that just because multiple versions of a story exist, “no one [can] say that you got it wrong.”” She’s relating to historical fact of multiple versions of Ramayana (one version where Sita is Ravana’s daughter!) and there was never an early claim of a definitive and canonical version of Ramayana within Hinduism…..that is until the Chaddi boys and girls came along.

Finally, Banerjee’s ideological motive is laid bare, “but the danger of saying that there is no one Hindu identity is concluding that therefore there isn’t any Hindu identity.” Avoiding that conclusion seems to be the Hindutva Brigade’s ultimate project…. stitch together a unified Hindu identity (given the bewildering diversity of versions surrounding just Ramayana) for all Hindus since they feel to be at a disadvantage relative to Islam, Judaism and Christianity.
Augustus AAA
Pune, India
Oct 31, 2009 11:12 PM
58
Please visit Outlook more often, Aditi(if I may call you that)! I am happy now.

Ganesan, you'll see all her articles in outlook if you search by author. An interesting aspect of the reader responses to one of her articles was the overwhelmingly positive response that she got.
Narasimhan M.G
Bangalore, India
Oct 31, 2009 10:26 PM
57
As long as we have food to eat, we can indulge in reading the fables of Prof. Doniger and her likes in Indology (who get plenty of food to eat and engage in what they do). As long as we don't know Samskrit to understand the Ramayana or the Gita ourselves (and falsely believe and publicize the fables written by the likes of Dr. Doniger), some of us will become likewise - shivO BhootvA shivam yajEt, except in a Satanic sense! The sage of the Mundaka Upanishad would have laughed off our pitiable Wendy and her likes with this: "avidyaayaamantare vartamaanaaH svayam dhiiraaH panditam manyamaanaaH | janghanyamaanaaH pariyanti mooDaa andhEnaiva niiyamaanaa yathaandhaaH |", viz., "Drowned in the midst of ignorance, but thinking themselves great and learned, the deluded ones, attacked from all sides by decay, disease and death and several other miseries, turn round and round in the wheel of Samsara like blind men guided by blind men (mantra 1-2-8)." Except here the case is that of a really sick Jewish woman steeped in zero knowledge of Samskrit and the purpose of life. We, not knowing much Samskrit or Wendy's childhood, are the real fools to believe in her "scholarship". This indeed is the pity of English "educated" India. And the Outlook is apting displaying this outlook!
Lakshmithanaya
Kasaragodu, India
Oct 31, 2009 01:11 PM
56
Hare Rama Hare Krishna
I would have like to post on the main article, but seeing a lesser number of posts here. I would like to write here about Ramayana.

Ramayana has all aspects of faith.
Yoga Vashishta, where Rama goes to Vashishta for sagely advice is the foundation of Advaita. The surrender of Vibhishana is the like Ramanujas call for surrender to Vishnu or the Supreme God. Hanuman's devotion is the true Dvaitic devotion. Then for highest form of non-action towards material desires is the conversation between Rishi Ashtavakara and King Janaka , Sita's father. Any seeker will find that Ramayana embodies all aspects of spirituality.

About translations of Sanskrit to English , you can take people for a ride if you have not bathed in Sanskrit language right from childhood. Will write later.
krishnadas
Adelaide, Australia
Oct 31, 2009 03:21 AM
55
It's a great pity Outlook India is censoring people like Gyatri Devi and Augustus AAA who have kept this website so lively with their forthright comments.

I too am surprised that ANWAAR is not censored even when he uses the foulest language.
Momeen Rashid
Delhi, India
Oct 31, 2009 01:17 AM
54
Professor Wendy Doniger, just like a fanatical Pakistani muslim, does not understand Hindu mind and culture. It is unfortunate that she spent her energy and precious time on reinventing Ramayan and other legends.
vemuri reddy
ashland, United States
Oct 30, 2009 11:13 PM
53
---------------------------------
sandilya

Your pains taking response on Wendy's not so scholastic work is commendable. I found your write up sounding more scholarly than Wendy's manipulative work. It gave me boundless satisfaction that some one could challenge Wendy's claims authentically. You are aptly named. Your insight is very impressive and you have endeared to me . May God bless you.
It would be interesting to know what Wndy has to say on your response.
---------------------------------------

** Sarcasm ON **

How dare you can call Wendy not so-scholastic....

You are a evil yindoo...
You upper caste blah blah blah ...
You are fascist to call a Jew not so-scholastic ....
You are racist to call a Jew not so-scholastic
You sexist pig... you call the greatest sanskrit expert evenr to set a foot on this earth not so-scholastic...

You are a hindu fascist right wing sexist ding dong... How dare you?

You write a note on Internet. You Internet Hindu brigade fascist, sexists, right wing blah blah ....

** SARCASM MODE OFF **

On a serious note, Ms. Banerjee made a great rebuttal. Too smart for lowly scholastic left wing rabid commies.
VIvek
Hyderabad, India
Oct 30, 2009 08:17 PM
52
"How can a individual or a group debate and win over irrationality and immorality ?"

Yes, let's make India into just another Philippines or Pakistan with people chanting "Praise da Lawd, only Jesus saves" or "Allah Akbar, Islam in danger". That would be very rational and moral.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Oct 30, 2009 08:13 PM
51
"just 14% of the votes cast in the recent Maharastra elections - which clearly reflects the decline in the influence of the Hindu religious belief system on the people groups of India."

But why is this necessarily a good thing? It could be a good thing if those perpetuating it are totally inegalitarian, anti-modern and anti-democratic. Also, the general perception of the RSS is that they are more a political( rightly or wrongly) organisation than a religious one. So why would you associate the 'Hindu belief system' with them. There are lots of people who could represent the belief system.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Oct 30, 2009 05:06 PM
50
@ Seshadriji

Actually I was expecting you to come up with a great write up to put Wndy in the dock. But I have not seen any worthy post from You yet on this topic.
sandilya
Chennai, India
Oct 30, 2009 05:01 PM
49
I deeply appreciate 'Outlook' for publishing this response. Thank you.
sandilya
Chennai, India
Oct 30, 2009 05:00 PM
48
Dear Aditi

Your pains taking response on Wendy's not so scholastic work is commendable. I found your write up sounding more scholarly than Wendy's manipulative work. It gave me boundless satisfaction that some one could challenge Wendy's claims authentically. You are aptly named. Your insight is very impressive and you have endeared to me . May God bless you.
It would be interesting to know what Wndy has to say on your response.
sandilya
Chennai, India
Oct 30, 2009 03:24 PM
47
Ganapathy said: >>DEAR SANDY i was just replying to the lies that anyone can become a brahmin. whatever stage he reached valmiki and vyasa remain in the caste in which they were born.that is my point.my point is caste is determined by accident of birth and all this sugarcoating of anyone can become twiceborn /gayatri mantra chanter etc are pure bakwas.caste is like race and a reality which has to be fought with all available means>>
I agree that it has to be fought. The current caste system is ugly. It is not what it was meant to be. The system needs to be eradicated.But it can be done without the mudslinging on Hinduism. Since the moderator does not want caste to be discussed here. I will leave it at that.
Sandy
bristol, United Kingdom
Oct 30, 2009 02:32 PM
46
Rama and Sita would spend the second half of every day together in Rama’s Ashoka-grove, enjoying heavenly music and dance and partaking of gourmet food and intoxicating drinks. Rama and Sita are compared to other divine couples:
aditi banerjee
thanks aditi for proving karunanidhi right that according to valmiki ramayana ram was a drunkard(drinking intoxicating drinks evry day )
ganapathi
chennai, India
Oct 30, 2009 01:53 PM
45
I had pointed out her infamous misquotes, earlier in my comments to her interview. I gave the actual slokas as spoken by Lakshmana and pointed her lack of understanding, misquote, and her superficial knowledge etc.,.

Gorakhpur editions of VALMIKI RAMAYAMNA is too big a book to read and many readers have complained about it according to company's own web site.
And it is not an authoritative edition as it is a commercial enterprise.
There is a very good research done by Sanskrit scholars and they put RAMAYANA on the internet at
http://www.valmikiramayan.net

I pointed out earlier, in response to her interview, along with her mistakes, and her lack of understanding for the word "Kama" with an obvious intention to spread false propaganda and hence I do not want to repeat.

What I want to point out here is that, "Uttara Rama Charitham" probably written for the first time by BHAVA BHUTI should not be considered as part of Ramayana and the fact that Bhava Bhuti himself explaines that he had taken the characters from Valmiki Ramaya should settle the matter. Bhavabhuti's Utta ramacharitham is available in book shops with English translations.
I strictly believe that no discussion should have been allowed as Wendy herself made clear that book 7 (Uttarakhanda) were later additions !! and yet she quotes as part of valmiki Ramayana !! what sort of Sanskrit research scholar she is ??
and no discussion should have been written by you in your arguments, the fact that he derived his characters from Valmiki Ramayana
settles the matter.

Ramayana is "Rama's journey" and it ends with Rama's self realization as "himself" the God.

The words like "rape" ,Sita etc., are most disgusting to read or discuss simply because the central theme, of Ramayana is not understood by a person like Wendy Doniger.
It was Ravana who first realised that Sita was Goddess Laxmi and that was the primary motive behind his idea of "stealing" Sita.
Otherwise there was no reason for Ravana to take such a great risk to his life. The primary motivation for Ravana Brahma was not revenge against Rama or that of his lust or that of Sita's beauty.
Sundara Kanda makes it clear that Ravana's wife Mandodari also was as much beautiful if not more beautiful than Sita.
As witnessed by Hanuman inside Ravana's palace, he had plenty of most beautiful women in his palace chambers sleeping semi-naked, after probably drinking wine.

Ravana ,considered to have written SamaVeda and a Shiva's devotee , wanted to be richest in all the worlds by possessing Laxmi herself , is the central idea of his part of Ramayana.
That Ravana was a greedy person., his terrible desire for material wealth and possession was the crucial factor dictating his behaviors should be understood, by anyone who diligently reads Ramayana.

As we read Puranas we become clear that it was NOT for the first time that Vishnu lost his wife, or she was "stolen", and not for first time we read about how he searched for her, in all the three worlds !!!,
Actually these three worlds are: conscious, sub conscious, super conscious states one's own being;.
the word for example "thripurantha kaya" does not mean Lord Shiva goes to Tripura in north east of India every time you chant his "Rudram" and destroys it , or you are praying for it.

The moral of Ravana's failure also tells us that no one can really possess heavenly wealth .
That is the reason, that "Uttra Rama Charitha" ,which was written some time in 1st century A.D. by Bhavabhuti, who explained that he took the characters from Valmiki Ramayana , should never be considered as part of Valmiki Ramayana and a discussion should never ensue on it,whatever style later scholars injected to suit the style,slokas of Valmiki's RAMAYANA.

Wendy's misquotes could not be construed as another version of Ramayana. A misquote is a misquote and not a version of Ramayana !!!

So, Wendy Doniger took so many cold baths while reading Kama Sutra??? I do not know that. But what I can with certain accuracy can tell is that she did not understand even Vatsyana's Kama Sutra at all,let alone Ramayana or even Bhagavad Gita .

Why Kama Sutra survived if it is simply about sex postures ?? since that does not pertain to subject under discussion I do not want to write on Kama Sutra here for the benefit of Wendy.
bowenpalle venuraja gopal rao.
warangal, india
Oct 30, 2009 11:01 AM
44
typo:
People who read Outlook hardcopy will not be able to see this rebuttal.
Kiran Bagachi
mumbai, India
Oct 30, 2009 10:58 AM
43
Akil,

Don’t rush to thank Outlook so soon. Please note that Wendy's interview was published in the print edition where as the rebuttal is published only on this site. Manu who read Outlook hardcopy will not be able to see this rebuttal.
Kiran Bagachi
mumbai, India
Oct 30, 2009 10:34 AM
42
B Prabhu from Mangalore, India said:

"I am certain that neither the RSS nor these so called ' illuminaries ' will turn up for this debate. How can a individual or a group debate and win over irrationality and immorality ?"

You are completely wrong. Ms Doniger refused to have a debate with Rajiv Malhotra. It your high priestess who is turning away from an open forum debate where neither side can censor each other.
Malavika
san jose, United States
Oct 30, 2009 09:50 AM
41
An excellent and well researched rebuttal by ADITI. Thank YOU OUTLOOK for publishing it. Doniger wouldn't dare to write the way she has written about RAM and SITA, denigrating respected religious figures in CHRISTIANITY or ISLAM, because she would have faced "threat to her life" and streets the world over would have gone up in flames.
Akil
Bangalore, India
Oct 30, 2009 08:22 AM
40
I strongly believe that the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh ( RSS ) should ask Wendy Doniger to participate in a nationally televised debate on the content of her book . For there is a lot at stake for the RSS in the emerging India - it's political arm the BJP managed to get just 14% of the votes cast in the recent Maharastra elections - which clearly reflects the decline in the influence of the Hindu religious belief system on the people groups of India. The RSS can assemble all the ' illuminaries ' referenced in this article by Aditi Banerjee to participate in this nationally televised debate with the sole Wendy Doniger - to shore up their fortunes by debates and not by communal genocide as happened in Gujarat and in Babri masjid demolition. I am certain that neither the RSS nor these so called ' illuminaries ' will turn up for this debate. How can a individual or a group debate and win over irrationality and immorality ?
B Prabhu
Mangalore, India
Oct 30, 2009 07:57 AM
39
I was particularly dissappointed with Professor's Doniger's statement about the significance of Bhagavad-Gita in Hindu Theology. For the past twenty years, I have been a student of commentaries on Bhagavad Gita by Hindu theologians, and I disagree with her comments on Gita highlighted below:


"The Gita has always been well-known and well-loved in Hinduism but it is by no means the most important book for most Hindus for most of Hindu history. Most Hindus have other books that were important to them than the Gita like the Upanishads, the Puranas, Tulsidas’s and Kamban’s Ramayana. But the British loved the Gita—it was the first book to be translated from Sanskrit to English. And ever since the British period, many Hindus have believed that the Gita is their most important book. It has become a very important book but it was made central. "



It is absurd to say that only in recent years (and because of the influence of the British), Hindus have placed Gita as a central piece of theology. Professor Doniger may want to read the introduction by Sri Shankara Charya himself in his commentary on Bhagavad-Gita. Here is a translation of some of the writings of Sri Shankara Charya in the introductory chapter [translated by Swami Gambhirananda] .



""This scripture called the Gita, which is such, is the collection of the quintessence of all the teachings of the Vedas, and its meaning is difficult to understand." .....



"This scripture, viz the Gita, while particularly revealing the twofold dharma having Liberation (Moksha) as its goal and the supreme Reality, Brahman, called Vasudeva, as its subject-matter, comes to have a special purpose (prayojana), relationship (sambhandha) , and subject matter (vishaya). Since from a clear knowledge of its purport all the human ends become fulfilled, therefore an effort being made by me to expound it." ......



Moreover, Sri Shakara Charya (historians place him in seventh to eighth century CE) alludes to the fact that he is not the first one to write a commentary on the Gita.



"Finding that although its words, meanings of words, meanings of sentences and arguments have been expounded by many for the sake of discovering its import, still because of the multiplicity and extreme contradictoriness of the expositions it is not comprehended by people, I shall explain it briefly with a view to determining its meaning distinctly."



Claiming that Bhagavad-Gita became the central piece of Hindu theology because of some British or European influence is analogous to claiming that Indians took interest in number theory because British brought the western university system to India!

Mysore N. Prakash, Ph.D.,
Author, "The Courtesan and the Sadhu, A Noveal about Maya, Dharma, and God"
www.dharmavision.com
Mysore N. Prakash
Dallas, United States
Oct 30, 2009 07:45 AM
38
It is a very well commented article about how a person can totally mislead student community and put a black-eye on a religion without studying to the depth. These academic studies of religions are undoubtedly done by reading other peoples writing. The knowledge of original scripts and context of the scripts are not understood to the extent of following the steps. Several times, even for head of a Mutt, it gets difficult to explain every aspect of the believes. If someone reads 3rd or 4th translation/interpretation of a religion this is what happens.

Thanks to Aditi for explaining several controversial statements in the work.
sathya
Dallas, United States
Oct 30, 2009 07:38 AM
37
Aditi deserves more.At least she is clear,precise and transparent in her thoughts and aware of what she is writing.I am not supporting her because she is defending anything but because she has satisfied those who are unwary of the evil designs of the so called Sanskrit scholars like Wendy.
vijay
Bangalore, India
Oct 30, 2009 02:59 AM
36
Moderator's Note: Please read the comments policy. Thank you.
gayatri devi
delhi, India
Oct 30, 2009 01:13 AM
35
Moderator's Note: Please refrain from personal attacks and abuse. Please read the comments policy. Thank you.
VIvek
Hyderabad, India
Oct 30, 2009 12:09 AM
34
Moderator's Note: Please refrain from personal attacks and abuse. Please read the comments policy. Thank you.
Augustus AAA
Pune, India
Oct 29, 2009 10:18 PM
33
Moderator's note: Here's a request: if you really wish to discuss caste, please find the right thread for it. Perhaps this:

http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?213165

Please use this thread only for feedback to the article under question. Thank you.

***

DEAR SANDY i was just replying to the lies that anyone can become a brahmin. whatever stage he reached valmiki and vyasa remain in the caste in which they were born.that is my point.my point is caste is determined by accident of birth and all this sugarcoating of anyone can become twiceborn /gayatri mantra chanter etc are pure bakwas.caste is like race and a reality which has to be fought with all available means.

ganapathi
chennai, India
Oct 29, 2009 10:17 PM
32
Moderator's note: Please keep your responses topical. Thank you.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Oct 29, 2009 08:04 PM
31
Ganapathy,
Valmiki and Vyasa were above Brahmins. I really don't know how to make you understand the difference between a sage and an ordinary Brahmin. Sages are considered equal to God. Why would Vyasa and Valmiki want to become an ordinary Brahmin? Their writings are revered and used as prayers by ordinary Brahmins. Valmiki and Vyasa are from supposed lower castes. Rama was a Kshatriya, Krishna was from the current OBC community. Siva is sometimes referred as Chandala(considered as Dalit today). We have people from all castes as Sages/ Gods. Do you know that according to the scriptures, Brahmins are not supposed to earn any money? They are supposed to beg for food, that too only from 5 houses in a day. Since Brahmins’ job was to worship God for the whole community, it is considered as their right to beg for food for subsistence. No wonder that our Puranas are full of stories of destitute Brahmins including Krishna’s friend Sudama. Even the Sankaracharya, who was a Brahmin used to follow the same principle. I agree that later, Brahmins used their knowledge of the scriptures to their advantage and started enjoying all privileges. But your hatred towards Brahmins defies all logic
Sandy
bristol, United Kingdom
Oct 29, 2009 07:14 PM
30
It is the fear of losing his good name (as the result of the infamy surrounding Sita’s chastity by the gossip-mongers of Ayodhya) that impels Rama, not fear of being chastised as a sex-addict.
it sounds like jagdish tytler worried about being implicated in antisikh riots.for me its better if he felt its better to leave his wife as being a ruler he cannot be so much addicted to sita which will result in less time for governance(the pracharaks too dont marry and its no surprise their hero felt the same about sex).we have people who praise kamaraj rule which happened 50 yrs back as great and without faults while in reality it may be different if u research. the same with the saying that bihar was the best administered state till lalu spolied it and it was flowing milk and honey in uttarpradesh under pant and tiwaris and mayawathi has spolied it.we have hundreds of mishras who write mayawathi puranas like a valmiki writing ranmpurana.both has to be taken with a pinch of salt.if mishras views of mayawathi is sacrosanct than one can agree with the pure gold maryada purushottam comedies.
valmiki was not converted to a brahmin nor vyasa became a brahmin.if becoming brahmins was not by birth than how come they are not brahmins.who r the brahmins in history who were born in lower castes but because of their knowledge and saying gayatri mantra became mantra.was it the same for rajputs too.its surprising that people can be so naive.
who is the authority on ramayana and if anyone in this forum names someone kindly clarify why.its a interesting story with several authors over thousands of yrs presenting them to the taste of their audiences.
ganapathi
chennai, India
Oct 29, 2009 06:12 PM
29
Thank you for providing such a well-researched follow-up to Ms. Doniger's interview. You have done us all a great favour.
Raveesh Varma
Grand Rapids, MI, USA
Oct 29, 2009 05:10 PM
28
Aditi has written a wonderful response, but at times it tends to be on the personal brigade. I assume she is not patrt of the internet Hindutvadi brigade that keeps rioting on keyboards!! At some point in the article, Aditi too seems to join the internet Hindutva mobsters which plague every discussion forum and every news site!!
However, all in all a good response. Cheers !!
Amit
A, India
Oct 29, 2009 04:54 PM
27
in my previous post I meant national integration. sorry for the typo.
Sandy
bristol, United Kingdom
Oct 29, 2009 04:52 PM
26
Ganapathy Wrote: >>>>there were arguments that a doctor is needed to treat the patients but making only kerala brahmin doctors fit to work in aiims is nothing but absolute reservation(may be divine reservation).the oft repeated caste and twice born comedies not by birth as again started commencing and can any one say who in history r the lowercastes who became brahmins. is it adisankara/dronacharya/ramanuja or any of the sankaracharyas till date. kindly list the temples were brahmins who were born as dalits but became brahmins r priests.>>>>
Ganapathy, So who was Valmiki who wrote the Ramayana which the Brahmins revere? Was he not from the supposed lower castes? What about Vyasa who was from fishing community, again from one of the supposed lower castes? What Brahmin unity are you talking about? It is unfortunate that you fail to see national inegration in establishing Mutts in furthest corners of India. According to you Sankaracharya wanted reservation for Brahmins from Kerala all over India? For God's sake, it is a Mutt-a spiritual centre, not the Parliament. As I explained before and given more clarity by V.Sheshadri from Chennai, becoming(not by birth) a Brahmin is mandatory for becoming a Hindu priest. All these allegations will fade away, once the so called Daliths start becoming head priests in main temples. Unfortunately, these sections of the society are injected with so much anti Hindu Venom now a days that few people among them want to learn Vedanta.

A welcome change is happenning in Kerala though. From the 'Thanthra Vidya Peetam', many people from all sections of Hindus are becoming priests. But then, who would want to become Brahmin now a days? One of my friends who is a Brahmin, was lamenting about how he was struggling to find a match as nobody wanted to marry him since he was a Priest. He has to wake up early morning in 'Brahma muhoortham-3.30 am' start the pooja, which continues till 11.30am. Then again at 3.30pm till 8pm. He goes to bed at 9pm to wake up early. All this for 3000 RS a month! Still, he considers himself lucky as some of his friends are getting less than that.
Sandy
bristol, United Kingdom
Oct 29, 2009 03:49 PM
25
its comical to see aditi using the negative points to defend diversity of hinduism by pointing to the facts that namboodiris from kerala r the chief priests in distant badrinath.this was meant for pure brahmin supremacy and brahmin unity and nothing to do with hindu unity.when it comes to untouchability and orthodoxy namboodiris are unrivalled and by making absolute reservation for them adisankara can be called the father of reservation policy.
there were arguments that a doctor is needed to treat the patients but making only kerala brahmin doctors fit to work in aiims is nothing but absolute reservation(may be divine reservation).the oft repeated caste and twice born comedies not by birth as again started commencing and can any one say who in history r the lowercastes who became brahmins. is it adisankara/dronacharya/ramanuja or any of the sankaracharyas till date. kindly list the temples were brahmins who were born as dalits but became brahmins r priests.
this is a very subjective topic and its funny to see concrete denials/rebuttals and i find none in this artcle which strongly denies the points of wendy.i have read some parts of ramayana translations of valmiki ramayana and it says rama had may wives and sita was one among them.its a story which keeps changing with evry author to suit their audiences.the current refined victorian moral vegetarian groups now paint rama was never a sex maniac. tomorrow menaka gandhi will come with sanskrit translation of ramayana quoting rama was a pure vegetarian(she may allow milk was drunk by him because her main audience will be upset if she says its nonvegetarian)and since it suits the b---n lobby it will become authentic supported by all acharyas and any different opinion will be derided.
ganapathi
chennai, India
Oct 29, 2009 01:26 PM
24
upekha = ignore / be indifferent. And, they will die a natural death.
Gopi Maliwal
If I am right it is 'Upeksha' not upekha.
sandilya
Chennai, India
Oct 29, 2009 01:09 PM
23
Aditi Banerjee- thank you for the rather enlightening rebuttal to Wendy Doniger's rantings.
One always had a nagging suspicion that the so called experts on religions, based in the universities of the West, have views and opinions that are far fetched and indeed far removed from reality.Your educated remarks about the studies of Hinduism by Wendy Doniger and her ilk have indeed shed light on the absolutely cavalier approach followed by these so called doctors of Divinity.That these dubious writings are actually the foundation for research in religious studies by students and scholars, is an absolute shocker. It was indeed an unfortunate day for India when Wendy doniger and her ilk decided to take up the study of Sanskrit and Vedic texts.Religion and emotion indeed go together and the two play a major role in making the follower a believer.Wendy, by her own admission refers to herself as a Jew - making her a pure translator of text in sofar as her so called expertise in Vedic studies goes.In the way, a person with rich vocabulary does not necessarily become a good writer, mere knowledge of the Sanskrit language and script does not make Wendy an expert in Vedic studies.
Wendy's superficiality and lack of depth comes through in her especially puerile responses to questions.
We can only bemoan the strokes of fate that have led to America's rather lethal contributions to the world at large - weapons of mass destruction, the MBA program and the Divity programs.---- the latter two being slow killers.
Shiv Adiseshan
Chennai, India
Oct 29, 2009 11:52 AM
22
Wendy has used many words to say many things in a hefty book.
I find it interesting because of the compendium it has become.
As for her views, as of any other author and scholar, they come to us through a prism of her prejudices and biases.

Interesting exercise in toto.
Bindu Tandon
Mumbai, India
Oct 29, 2009 11:27 AM
21
>She is not a Periyar trashing Hinduism nor a Spencer >trashing Islam. In spite of the errors and the >controversies, she is well within the ambit of >academia.

just because you have a degree and have written a couple of books doesn't make you a scholar. wendy doniger has for long attracted too many criticisms from too many reputable quarters, for her to be really considered a scholar. a sensationalist is more like it.
nandakumar
chennai, india
Oct 29, 2009 11:24 AM
20
Only (A)vivekis can accept crap as Ramayan scholarship of someone who does't have even basic knowledge of Sanskrit (another "eminent" expert - Ms Thapr who, according to Madhu Kishwar, can not read any Indian language and still pretends to be THE expert on ancient India)! That reminds me of a comment by sri Aurobindo that why should Hindus not put more weight on Dayanand than translations by some motivated Englishmen. Here, it is not even translation but use of translations! What Hindus should do to the like of WD is follow Patanjali's advice about Apunyas (unvirtuous) - upekha = ignore / be indifferent. And, they will die a natural death.
Gopi Maliwal
Hong Kong, Hong Kong
Oct 29, 2009 09:10 AM
19
Sandy:>>” anyone can become Brahmin. It is true that this concept got associated with birth in the later stages of Hinduism. This has changed a lot now. In kerala, at 'Thanthravidyapeetam', Mantras are taught to students by people who were not born as Brahmins. Anyone who learns Vedas and lead a Vedic lifestyle is a Brahmin”.

I am in agreement with you. The very fact that only those who took gayatri, they alone, thereafter, were called dvijas, twice-born, indicates that all humans were considered only born equally as NBs only in Hinduism, including the off-spring of yagjnopaveetins also. Taking gayatri was only optional, for pursuing a spiritual co-segment in life, useful for enhancing the professional achievements of knowledge-based occupations, like teaching, research, medicine, law, mgmt etc., to benefit by intuitive in-lighten-ments from sun light’s nano-wave contents. True for all castes, creeds, even these days.

yasmin api mate kaashTe jaato jigjnaasur aastikah
[whatever the born creed, caste; the knowlgde-seeking god-believers]
upa-veetas-tu gaayatryaam dvijo braamhaNa ucyate.
[brought into gayatri chanting, become twice-born god-minded spirituals]

Strongly vegetarian habits do amplify the realizn of full spiritual benefits from gaayatri-mentations.
Proclaimed by sage vasishTa, ram’s guru, himself.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Oct 29, 2009 08:04 AM
18
Gaurav,

>> re: Hinduism the Jew Wendy Doniger...

Her Jewishness is not relevant. She has to be accepted as a scholar even if she may have made errors and may be somewhat paranoid about the right-wing Hindutva fundamentalists. Some of her critics may be moderate and sober Hindus, but the vast majority, especially the most vitriolic ones, are Hindutvadis as can be seen from the posts in this forum. She is not a Periyar trashing Hinduism nor a Spencer trashing Islam. In spite of the errors and the controversies, she is well within the ambit of academia.
Anwaar
Dallas, United States
Oct 29, 2009 07:00 AM
17
Moderator's Note: Please refrain from personal attacks and abuse. Please read the comments policy. Thank you.
aravindan neelakandan
Nagercoil, India
Oct 29, 2009 05:43 AM
16
Wendy Doniger is made to look like the filmi Lalita Pawar among scholars.
gajanan
Sydney, Australia
Oct 29, 2009 04:53 AM
15
A well reasoned, hard-hitting response. More than Doniger really deserves but useful nonetheless for many Hindus may not be aware of some of the details. I certainly learned something.

Well done, Aditi!
sanjay
boston, USA
Oct 29, 2009 04:11 AM
14
Undue importance is given to Western scholars by the Indian media.
Two points should be noted about Wendy Doniger: she does not know Sanskrit; and she is obsessed with sex almost to a pathological degree. Her claim of being a Jew is questionable. she used to call herself O'Flaherty, an Irish Catholic name. It is also irrelevant. What matters is her scholarship which is based entirely on highly whimsical readings of translations and not original texts.
N.S. Rajaram
Bangalore, India
Oct 29, 2009 04:05 AM
13
the common thread in all these gratuitous insults to non Judeo - Christian religions are the Jews. That was the case for the infamous Danish cartoons ( Flemings Rose is a Jew ) as is the case with these disrectful, throwway "scholarship" re: Hinduism the Jew Wendy Doniger. It is merely an expression of the power they have garnered by exploiting their real and inflated persecution at the hands of Christian Europe and the Nazis. Hindus should take note that Christian America too is sufferinga t the hands of Jew. Most of the Hollywood pornographers, Wall St. scammers and Insurance manipulators are Jews.
Gau_Rav1
nowhereland, Japan
Oct 29, 2009 04:04 AM
12
Instead of

"...that their representation"

please read;

"...that their representation is problematic"
Ajit Tendulkar
Seattle, United States
Oct 29, 2009 04:02 AM
11
Momeen Rashid, I like the Muslim names you choose in your various avatars, which is fitting enough in a discussion about the various versions of Ramayana. I am afraid Anwaar's reasons for agreeing are only because he is a wuss and he likes to pretend that he is consistent when it comes to Islam as well. He is as regressive as it comes when it comes to representation of religions and will start screaming blue murder if we as much as talk about the right of Danish
newspapers to publish those cartoons.

On the more serious question of Dalits, I think they have all the right in the world to protest whichever way they want: that they are not included, that their representation. Also, despite all that this piece argues, the fact remains that our mythologies do have much to upset women and the underprivileged. Sita is not the only one wronged in Ramayana and Mahabharata too has its own share of problems with Eklavya and Krishna's chaalupanti in general. The more interesting point, though, is that our texts actually do provide enough complexity and nuance and scope for reinterpretation for all sorts of peopole to find the meanings they are looking for.
Ajit Tendulkar
Seattle, United States
Oct 29, 2009 03:51 AM
10
I must admit ANWAAR is right for once. I can agree with him that the values of a religion are not what some academics claim they are, but what its believers think they are.

But what about the Dalits?
Momeen Rashid
Delhi, India
Oct 29, 2009 03:13 AM
9
Ganapathy,

I presume the thread you were referring to is Yajnopavitha. The tradition of selecting somebody at a young age and grooming them to be head of the Mutt has many other reasons. In Hindu society Brahmins learn about Mantras and Vedas at a very young age. They have been doing it since ages. Think of it this way. We only let Doctors operate on a patient. Anyone can become a doctor. Similarly, anyone can become Brahmin. It is true that this concept got associated with birth in the later stages of Hinduism. This has changed a lot now. In kerala, at 'Thanthravidyapeetam', Mantras are taught to students by people who were not born as Brahmins. Anyone who learns Vedas and lead a Vedic lifestyle is a Brahmin.
Sandy
bristol, United Kingdom
Oct 29, 2009 01:40 AM
8

Moderator's note: Please note that this is not the space for discussing the print magazine's editorial discretion as to what to publish when. For print magazine related complaints, please send a letter to the editor at letters AT outlookindia DOT com and for website related complaints please send a mail to mail AT outlookindia DOT com instead of derailing the discussion in this area. Thank you.

Selvan
Boston, United States
Oct 29, 2009 01:02 AM
7
Moderator's Note: Message deleted for unnecessarily bringing in repeated irrelevant references to the moderator. Please stay on topic and no post will ever need to be deleted. Please read the Comments Policy carefully. Thank you and have a good day.
Selvan
Boston, United States
Oct 29, 2009 12:59 AM
6
Just because someone alleges that the "sringeri acharyas r selected at a very yuoung age", does not automatically mean that Doniger is correct. Doniger's scholarship - such as it is - has to stand up to detailed scrutiny quite irrespective of irrelevancies like the age of sringeri acharyas, why the pope is always white or even why the half white obama is labeled black. Aditi's carefully reasoned, thoughtful and well presented rebuttal makes a mockery of Doniger's "scholarship".
sanjay
boston, USA
Oct 29, 2009 12:48 AM
5
"heaping blame on a nebulous, undefined, straw man “Hindutva Internet Brigade” for the whole continuum of criticism of Doniger’s work—criticism that has come mostly from moderate and liberal Hindus, secularists, non-Hindu scholars and even one prominent Harvard Indologist who is not known for being friendly towards Hindus. Rather than confront the actual criticisms, Doniger pretends that her only critics are Hindu extremists, and by rebuking this “enemy” she tries to deflect any criticism of her work."

Hindutva Internet Brigade is alive and kicking. One has to follow the threads in this forum. No Matter what is the subject of discussion they keep spewing venom like a struck record. Or for that matter Just visit the Amazon site where this notorious group has taken over and crapped on the review site of this book. Not one of them has read this book. Or you could go to myriad blogs on Internet where you would find them selling silly old ideas. The author has in the beginning of article tried to (in an indirect way) negate that there is anything such as paid Hindutva Internet Brigade.

Bottom line is that Doniger's book has initiated a debate on a subject that is considered taboo. Imagine somebody asking these questions in India ?
JayKay Chraborty
Kolkatta, India
Oct 29, 2009 12:42 AM
4
Aditi ji, Thank you for articulating this clearly. The notion that once a person has been successfully. albeit falsely stereotyped , it is unnecessary to rebut his or her arguments, is a reductionist approach that is rampant. However, the only thing that will likely stop her is a law suit.
042170
Pleasanton, USA
Oct 29, 2009 12:06 AM
3
> "Doniger’s (and her colleagues’) versions of Hinduism and Hindu history (which are often at serious variance with traditional Hinduism as practised and understood by Hindus themselves)...."

This is true of other religions also. What the followers practice and understand is the best depiction of a religion. Good article by Aditi Banerjee. Lucid and well argued.
Anwaar
Dallas, United States
Oct 28, 2009 11:57 PM
2
there is a common thread connecting the author and all her references and the people who will now shower praises on her and its the same thread which she refuts is not needed in the beginning of the article.
the sringeri acharyas r selected at a very yuoung age not because of any knlkwedge but because they r born into a specific community. wendy with her education and research is any day 1000 times better than them.hinduism and sanskrit and all gods whether rama or his father had done wonders for the brahins and i find no wrong in they getting annoyed and deriling wendy but the trouble starts when they start saying and forcing that they were good to eklavya and vaali too.why should i feel proud of sringeri mutt and get annoyed about wendy?.i will buy her books and will present it whenever i am needed to buy gifts.i have no objection if someone prints this rebuttal and distributes in thousands but feel annoyed when one talks with authority on issues which r subjective to say the least
ganapathi
chennai, India
Oct 28, 2009 10:59 PM
1
A fantastic rebuttal!!

I do not recall reading anything by the writer before. But I hope she writes more. There is excellent clarity and research.
Ganesan
Nj, USA
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