Divine conclave: Exploring intertextuality
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When Shloka Speaks To Shloka
A text-centric conspectus studies Hinduism’s pluralistic ways, ignores living reality
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The Hindus: An Alternative History
The Hindus: An Alternative History
By Wendy Doniger
Penguin/Viking | 780 pages | Rs 999

Can one tell a history of the Hindus through their stories? That is the challenge that American scholar and Sanskritist Wendy Doniger sets herself in this book, a culmination of many years of teaching and engagement with Hindu thought and writing. One thing those years have made clear to Doniger is the difficulty of defining Hinduism. The term itself lacks any roots within India—only after the seventeenth century can we find the first usage of the title ‘Hindupati’ or Lord of the Hindus—and there is no agreed doctrine, founder, or church-like institution with which it is identified. There is no Hindu canon. Nor do the Hindus themselves form a race, or inhabit a narrowly specified territory.

What does connect them and set them apart, Doniger argues, is the fact that their imaginations, and many of their social practices, are structured by a vast web of stories—texts that spin across and through the languages and cultures of the subcontinent. Doniger calls it ‘intertextuality’, the self-conscious reference to stories that came before, all the way back to the Rig Veda. And from there on, the Brahmanas, Upanishads, Mahabharata, Ramayana, Shastras, Puranas, Tantric texts, the philosophical schools whose networks extended from the Tamil South up to Kashmir, the poetry and song of the Bhakti movements. There is no comparable output in any of the other great instances of the moral and religious imagination still available to us today.

Such texts can’t, however, be read as open windows on the societies that produced them. We don’t even know when some of the most fertile Hindu texts were composed. The Mahabharata and Ramayana, for instance, can only be dated to some time between 300 BC and AD 300 and 200 BC and AD 200 respectively. Still, Doniger is interested in the tensions between history (what exactly happened) and what societies tell themselves about what is happening. Her passion is the human imagination.

Doniger calls her book an ‘alternative history’ because she believes the other histories overemphasise the Brahminic wellsprings of Hindu stories. She argues, effectively, that the ‘high’ texts have quite often fed off low tales. She shows in particular how the voices of women, Dalits and tribals have energised many Brahminic scripts. So too, she makes us hear the voices of Buddhist and Jain thought, and later of Islam and Christianity, in dialogue with the Hindu texts. Just as those lower in society sought to Sanskritise and Kshatriyise, so the Sanskrit texts were permeable to what she terms ‘deshification’—the absorption of local, ‘small’ traditions.

 
 
Doniger’s capacity for a ‘shlesha’ of empathy and criticism fails in her treatment of Hindutva, though she pokes fun at it.
 
 
She draws out the layered cruelties and conflicting natures of Hindu texts with verve, among them the story of Ekalavya, the expert tribal archer in the Mahabharata. He displays his skill by unleashing arrows into the mouth of a dog. Arjuna, outraged that someone of lower caste can do this and threatened by his prowess, tells Ekalavya’s guru, Drona, to put a stop to it. Drona requires Ekalavya to cut off his thumb, which he does. The story reveals and revels in the injustice of caste. But Doniger also cites other versions—for instance, a Jain text in which Arjuna is shown as cruel and vindictive. These constitute what Doniger calls the ‘intertextual’ argument and conversation of the Hindus—with the Mahabharata as a central clearing house for this vast network of disputation. One of her arresting comparisons likens the Mahabharata to ‘an ancient Wikipedia, to which anyone who knew Sanskrit...could add a bit here, a bit there’.

But the central insight driving her argument concerns the Hindu way of telling stories, a capacity to make not just art, but ethics, out of ambiguity. It’s a characteristic embodied in the Sanskrit figure of speech known as ‘slesha’. Slesha—literally ‘embrace’—holds together at once two different stories or images, allowing the listener or reader to switch between them. This is essentially a metaphoric capacity: to see something as something else. It also offers a way out of any impasse. As E.M. Forster put it, ‘Every Indian hole has at least two exits’.

In such a universe, meaning is never settled—and so, neither, is authority. Claimants to authority, from the gods themselves to the human scribes who record their doings to modern-day gurus who hold forth on the texts, climb up ladders but also slide down snake chutes. This fosters an internal pluralism: within the individual, the possibility of internal conflict between the demands of society’s moral code and a more universal ethics is never resolved or far from the surface. The recognition of ambiguous meaning also enables, though in more complex and sometimes attenuated ways, an attitude of pluralism towards other moral cosmologies and religions.

The eighteenth century Scottish philosopher, David Hume, put this capacity for pluralism down to polytheism, a religious view that saw nature as distinguished not by order and beauty, but “by the various and contrary events of human life”. “So sociable is polytheism,” wrote Hume, “that the utmost fierceness and aversion which it meets with in an opposite religion is scarcely able to disgust it and keep it at a distance”. Now, this sociability is hardly one that would guarantee survival in a biological species; and polytheism has been a characteristic mainly of ancient religions, which rarely got beyond the lower branches of the Darwinian tree of human belief systems. Why, then, has Hinduism been able to survive, with some vigour, across such a span of human history? Some, of course, over the past century and more have feared that it possibly cannot—and have hoped to make Hinduism more mono in its theism.

It’s precisely the capacity of the Hindu imagination to keep telling and re-telling stories, rather than to box them up into a single authorised narrative or code, which has kept it in business—and enabled it to flourish within a society at once of great internal complexity and which has also regularly encountered tough external pressures.

Doniger takes an obvious joy in the stories she analyses, and one of many pleasures in the book is her consideration to animals in the Hindu world—as objects of sacrifice, consumption, devotion and protection, sometimes all at once. The idea of non-violence, ahimsa, is first developed in relation to the treatment of animals—a matter of public concern to rulers, who encouraged forms of casuistry to justify animal sacrifice. The cow, of course, figures. But Doniger more interestingly tracks the importance of dogs. The Mahabharata, she notes, begins and ends with stories about justice for dogs. She also brings the horse back to the centre of the Hindu imagination. From the great Ashvamedha sacrifice, described in shudder-inducing detail in the Vedas, to the raging hooves of Kalki, it is the horse—an animal not native to the subcontinent—that has fascinated Hindus.

But for all the delights in Doniger’s scholarship, there is a deeper question she might have done well to confront. How did the Hindu capacity for moral pluralism actually stand in relation to Indian society? Doniger notes and celebrates the presence in many texts of challenges to hierarchy and caste. She shows that caste was not invariably an intellectual or philosophical prison. It was possible to think oneself out of it, to criticise its injustice, mock its absurdities. But she doesn’t probe a central paradox: Why did such critical thoughts and stories gain such little purchase on the social order? The astonishing plurality of Hindu thought—its vast ocean of polydox beliefs—is only matched by its equally staggering orthopraxy, the unchanging rigidity of social patterns and practices. The old Hindus seem to have perfected ‘repressive tolerance’ well before Herbert Marcuse discovered it in California.

Similarly, Doniger sets out but does not fully unravel some of the central dilemmas embodied in texts like the Mahabharata. The Mahabharata poses the problem of the world’s moral irrationality. If the concept of Karma appears to suggest a rational moral economy—that my present action will have a future pay-off—this idea is constantly subverted in the Mahabharata, where one more throw of the dice again and again determines the moral horizon. “The Mahabharata sees a vice behind every virtue, a snake behind every horse, and a doomsday behind every victory,” Doniger writes, and so every moral choice and act is somehow the wrong choice. In fact, the notion of Karma so diffuses the location of merit and de-merit, makes them such mobile and transferable qualities that it is impossible to track causality. Sinners too, can go to heaven, despite their intentions—if they happen simply to be in contact with some salvaging ritualistic practice. What sort of moral universe can be sustained if there is such a weak relation between intention and consequence?

More disappointing in this important book is Doniger’s treatment of recent history. Kipling and Foster are her orienting stars in discussing the colonial period, and she conveys little sense of the intellectual ferment in India at the time—the many experiments with religion, politics, caste, and the different meanings that Hindu ‘reform’ came to hold. This leads directly to the book’s greatest weakness—the absence of any serious explanation of Hindutva. Doniger has a potent—indeed, quite felt—sense of its presence and projectile capacity, and has had occasion to reflect on it. But while she has roustabout fun at the expense of the adepts of Hindutva, she doesn’t stop to ask what it is about the potentialities within Hinduism, and what it is about the Hindus at this point in their history, that have conspired to breathe life into such versions of Hinduism. Her capacity for ‘double vision’, for empathy and criticism, here fails.

Doniger is an unstoppable teller of tales and a brilliant interpreter of them also. Yet, occasionally, one feels that, rather than delve deeper into the contradictions of history, she too, like her subjects stretching back many thousands of years, prefers just to tell one more story.

 
Daily MailPublished
COLLAPSE COMMENTS :
HAVE YOUR SAY
Nov 04, 2009 11:38 AM
44
Shloka Shoka

Schlocking it to (Hind)us
Srinivas Shastri
Bangalore, India
Nov 03, 2009 11:24 AM
43
"dear barua there is no concept of adventurism and tourism in our culture"

Even if that were true in medieval times, it certainly doesn't hold now. Millions of Indians do engage in tourism, both domestic and international. It's the universal desire to see new places and have new experiences. There's nothing culture-specific about that.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Oct 30, 2009 03:08 PM
42
dear barua there is no concept of adventurism and tourism in our culture and religion plays an important role in movement out of the villages.apart from kumbhmela evn events like annadurais death attracted lakhs for seeing his body which is mentioned in the record books.we still have a lot of fear of unknown unlike deveolped nations and lose millions to treatable diseases like typhoid,malaria,cholera and during pregnancy(the maternal mortality rate is less than 3 per 100000 in sweden/denmark etc while in india its in hundreds in some states) and lose thousands in train/bus/boat accidents which r a rarity in the west.the intelligence levels r also low to understand genetic defects for diseases and the problems due to poor sanitation/hygiene etc.scare of swineflu by the media can reduce the kumbhmela crowds to 1/4th and with proper knowledge it will be decreasing with evry yr.the ganesh chathurthi celebrations in pune where very subdued this yr due to media scare of swine flu.
finally its very difficult to be a atheist and be realistic and with so many factors around u which can cause death/ destruction unlike the western nations we flock for all miracles and ganga dips to wash off sins.the religion will die if it says that all males who go to commercial sex workers will be barred from the community or indls should not marry if they r not self sufficient.the religions only say that wife can be punished if she doesnt provide sex evry fourth day and any religion which prohibits sex /advises sexual abstitence for majority will die.when women become more prominent in all spheres the religions will die as all religions are antiwomen and newer/refined versions with old quoatations justifying women lighting the funeral pyre/tying mangalsutra etc will surfice.the current hinduism is the refined form due to the effects of ambedkar and 70 yrs back crores beleived dalits should not enter temples(this included all the mutt heads and leading congress leaders).more of intercaste/interreligious marriages will also lead to death/dilution of all religious cruelties.
ganapathi
chennai, India
Oct 30, 2009 01:44 AM
41
...like human beings the relgions invented/amalgamated etc should also die one day.::ganapathi, chennai, India

**I agree one hundred percent, but at the same time I cannot make out why 90% of Hindu India at large is still occupied with its' Brahminic priesthood and other rituals that is associated with their idols and idol worship. What makes millions of pilgrims flock to Kumbhmela, Sagarmela and scores of other melas, despite all odds!!! May be Ganapathy can shed a little light on it.
Shyamal Barua
kolkata, India
Oct 29, 2009 07:15 PM
40
Amit,

"I do not necessarily agree with Wendy , but it is fun to read her and her articles"

Interesting. I donot think anyone would have problem if Wendy would have been a humorist. Unfortunately she claims to be a scholar on hinduism. That is where the problem is.
Maha
NJ, United States
Oct 29, 2009 05:07 PM
39
The internet Hindutvadi brigade is in full steam stoking the embers. I do not necessarily agree with Wendy , but it is fun to read her and her articles. However, due to needless trolling by internet Hindutvadi brigade , Wendy derives more publicity.
Same applies for Hussain. Anyway, being an author myself, i can understand the drivel that Wendy might have to go through the hands of the brigade.
Anyway, good article and response from Outlook.
Cheers!!
Amit
A, India
Oct 29, 2009 07:10 AM
38
If I were to hazard a guess, very few if any, of those ranting and raving about Ms Doniger, has actually read her book.
From the write-up, I'd say she's done a pretty decent job of it, considering the complexity and expansiveness of the topic.
Bodh
Springfield, United States
Oct 28, 2009 12:10 AM
37
Ganapathy Babu,

>>like humanbeings the relgions invented/amalgamated etc should also die one day.

Thoughts like - the best truth, modern, organized etc. should be eradicated from our mind first, when we are talking about our religion and comparing it with others. Every religion has its flaws - we just have to accept it and should try to work on it. That will make a religion like an innocent wild flower, perishes at the end of the day and comes back gleefully in the next morning, unlike a flower made of plastics - imperishable, without any fragrance.
dip
Dhaka, Bangladesh
Oct 27, 2009 10:54 PM
36
Their God Jesus , will finally become a Hindu himself, and join the ranks and file of 30 million Hindu Gods, his mother Mary will join a little bit later. Christians would become just another caste of nearly 2000 Hindu castes.
bowenpalle venuraja gopal rao.
warangal, india
u have clearly stated what was /is hinduism as it is nothing but clear acquisition of 1000s of tribal practises/religions by the priestly class to enjoy at the expense of others. ur dreams all becoming hindus r farfetched as there r no new religions in the past 100 yrs as knowledge levels have increased and education has spread across all barriers.the harmfulness of religions are getting lost and they r now maintained for their harmless entertainment values in the european/developed nations and india will follow suit.like humanbeings the relgions invented/amalgamated etc should also die one day.
ganapathi
chennai, India
Oct 27, 2009 10:48 PM
35
Their God Jesus , will finally become a Hindu himself, and join the ranks and file of 30 million Hindu Gods, his mother Mary will join a little bit later. Christians would become just another caste of nearly 2000 Hindu castes.
bowenpalle venuraja gopal rao.
warangal, india
ganapathi
chennai, India
Oct 27, 2009 06:24 PM
34
Albert Webber- an englishman and self professed expert in religious studies once postulated that 'the Mahabharata and Bhagvad Gita were heavily influenced by Christian thought'.This moved Bankim Chandra Chattopadhyaya, the well known Bengali scholar, to say: "The celebrated Webber was no doubt a scholar but I am inclined to think that it was an unfortunate moment for India when he began the study of Sanskrit"
Perhaps Wendy Doniger is Webber reborn.
Shiv Adiseshan
Chennai, India
Oct 27, 2009 12:06 AM
33
Anwaar:

Who are you to decide what is balanced and what is not? Are you not the one who declared his admiration for Afghan mojahedin, universally reviled for their cruelty, on many occasions on this site?
Momeen Rashid
Delhi, India
Oct 26, 2009 11:58 PM
32
Precisely people picking instances of injustice in religious text forget one thing.. IN avtaarwad attempt is to show the pitfalls inherent in society. Not everythign in the book gets unqualified endorsement either from the author or reader.. in fact those tales serve a bulwark against the similar injustice being repeated in society.. People who read these books with jaundiced eye falsify those events claimign such and such thing is sanctioned just because it's in the book..

Such people don't understand even ABC of Avtarwad.
Anil Kumar
Toronto, Canada
Oct 26, 2009 11:54 PM
31
Wendy seems to be your usual novie Sanskrti expert from the west.. Anyone who claims Geeta's message to be "Since aatma is etrnal so you can go ahead as well kill your kith and kin" has to be one with tenuous grasp of scripture.

Geeta's real message is that in the path of dharma if you are confronted by even your nearest and dearest ones you must not make an excpetion since in eyes of dharma there is no room for exception based on personal relationship with the people on the side of adharma.

I am not at all surprised over Macaly-putras latching on this regurgitational book bereft of any deep analysis. And their able supporter are Jihadist briagd chrstian briagde in whose world-view anyone who doesn't pray like him is hell bound. People whose belief is so parochail hardly have rights to go around pointing fingers to others for intolerance anyway..
Anil Kumar
Toronto, Canada
Oct 26, 2009 11:48 PM
30
This seems to be a more sober and balanced take on Wendy Doniger's book than most of what is being posted in this forum.
Anwaar
Dallas, United States
Oct 26, 2009 09:33 PM
29
Hindus do not worship idols
just made of wood and clay.
One losts in oneself by seeing
epithet of the Supreme Being in the idol.

...G.Devi knows it...
dip
Dhaka, Bangladesh
Oct 26, 2009 09:09 PM
28
Bravo..Bowenpalle Venuraja Gopal Rao! May your prophecy come true!
Shiv Adiseshan
Chennai, India
Oct 26, 2009 05:13 PM
27
Good one, the last line is telling.
Ramana
Hyderabad, India
Oct 26, 2009 04:56 PM
26
rgdng ekalavya episode, it is something quoted out of context. ekalavya offering his thumb as gurudakshina reveals multipe things :

1. people irrespective of caste have merit.
2. people irrespective of caste have honour (ekalavya giving up his thumb)
3. higher castes often tended to ruthlessness to preserve their privelege.

but pls note that vyaasa who wrote this text does not justify drona's request. he merely narrates this episode to illustrate the facts of life in ancient india. in the same mahabharatha, a brahmin fully learnt in the vedas is taught to realize that he is inferior to a woman who is the student of a butcher who takes care of his old parents. so while vyaasa teaches varnaaashrama dharma, he also teaches that it is not the only quotient for judging a person. the message is dual for the society.
nandakumar
chennai, india
Oct 26, 2009 12:28 PM
25
The problem with Wendy, it seems to me is that she failed to understand the inner meaning of her "slesha" in Sanskrit. I am happy she did not get mad.

She could see double or dual image (if there is a ladder of morality in that there is a also a snake ) of every story of Hindus for example in Mahabharata.
The significance is symbolism which she could not understand, Wendy had to take another birth.
Did she read puranas?
Probably yes, without a prejudiced mind ? probably No !!
She with a mind already concocted a preconceived notion , she searched and found the answers she always wanted with an urgency without the ability to understand the depth or inner meaning any "dharma sukshamam" which necessitates an understanding of symbolism.
An ordinary Indian villager can easily understand symbolism, while for a westerner he needs to be professor. Still it might look daunting, to understand Hindu texts. It is superficial effort of Wendy that made her reach at no conclusions at all. She was as much confused in the end , as she was at the beginning.

There is no way to understand scriptures at two levels . Either you would understand a sotry for example of Andhakasura or you would remember it as only a story of rakshas running behind his own mother Parvathi and Parvathi running for her life hides in a caveas long as your vertebra in to which he could enter only after winning against a very ,very virile Bull called Nandi. Finally at the end of tunnel , it appeared to be blue light and side by it a n orange colour but again Andhakasura reached there the lights turned out to be Shiva (blue) and Parvathi (orange). When Andhakasura tried to reach Parvathi, Shiva touched him with three pronged “trishul” which immediately burned his body, Andhakasura as soul light merged with the light of his mom.
What is the meaning? Even a villager can tell what Bull means and what a “trishul” means and the meaning of “Andhaka Sura” literal meaning is (ignorant thamoguna).

All you need is an ability to understand an allegory extremely unfamiliar to a foreigner. While an Indian school going Kid can understand “karma” it is difficult for a foreigner to understand it properly and by the time he/she understands it he will have completed a PhD

In Mahabharata, and thorough out Mahabharata, Lord Krishna was speaking, what he spoke at once, in Gita on the battle field.
Wendy Doniger understood it as a book of war !! There lies the difference.
What Krishna was speaking to Kunti his aunt and also his devotee.?
What Doniger understood from Krishna’s dialogues to blind emperor Dhritharastra ? Why Krishna went to kill Bhishma ,the only one in the enemy camp to recognise Krishna as God incarnate?
What Krishna was telling to his sister Droupadi ? You gloss it all over again and again only to declare that Gita as told by Krishna is a book of war !!!
What Wendy could tell by a seeing a picture of Guyarnica painted by Picasso???

Let us come to Bhagavatham and I think her "slesha of Sanskrit" would confuse her much more .
In Bhagavatam ( the story of Krishna or the story of "most fortunate" ) .
There is a story. In that story it was afternoon burning sunlight and heat and a black colour person wearing a king’s dress ,imitating a king, was beating a cow . The cow itself had its three legs broken.
And that one leg on which it was standing , it had its hoof on a gold coin.
This is exactly described as I wrote it here.

Parikshit gets angry seeing this incident.
What is the meaning ? The meaning is that dharma (justice) represented by cow is standing on a rupee coin (on money). The cheap person beating it represents present day values given to dress and not to the person. Cow tells us that its three legs (of four legged dharama or dharma on four columns) are already broken and the third is based on money!!

There is no confusion.
Every scripture has only a ladder and no snakes. Each scripture has only a ladder to ascend oneself spiritually. That is the primary reason, Hindu society values did not change, it is though very pluralistic , it is extremely rigid in its values , extremely tenacious in its beliefs, its “krathus” , it mantras , its marriage system (or divorces) ,its cremations . Or its puranas,itihasas,its brhamanas,its Vedas ,it mantras and even its tantric texts as much valuable as any time a million years ago. Bo emperor, no prophet, no gurus could destroy this great edifice. Ramayana is as much valuable and Hanuman chalisa is as much there , very prevalent in chanting.

It apparent pluralism is its ability to take or absorb new concepts of God. Acharya Rajneesh was easily fixed inside Indian society as much as Mata Amrithananda Mayi.

Prayer (as a method of salvation) is not new to Hinduism, heaven and hell is not new to Hinduism , Prophets like Jesus Christ are not new to Hinduism. Any new idea is heated,shifted,thrashed, and finally amalgamated in to Hindu fold. So you find Sufism rising out of Islam which is no way different from Hinduism.
Today Christian missionaries are spreading their messages, buying properties and building churches, converting people. They caught hold of the press and TV and so on, without understanding the power of Hindusim. Thousand heads of Wendy can not find a loophole in the thousand headed Adi Sheshu.

Their God Jesus , will finally become a Hindu himself, and join the ranks and file of 30 million Hindu Gods, his mother Mary will join a little bit later. Christians would become just another caste of nearly 2000 Hindu castes.
bowenpalle venuraja gopal rao.
warangal, india
Oct 26, 2009 08:57 AM
24
"If the concept of Karma appears to suggest a rational moral economy—that my present action will have a future pay-off—this idea is constantly subverted in the Mahabharata, where one more throw of the dice again and again determines the moral horizon. "

A reading of the dialogue between Shiva and Parvati in the Anushasana parva will dispel this notion.

But then, the first requirement is to read-something both Doniger and the reviewer have failed to do.
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Oct 26, 2009 08:49 AM
23
"n fact, the notion of Karma so diffuses the location of merit and de-merit, makes them such mobile and transferable qualities that it is impossible to track causality. Sinners too, can go to heaven, despite their intentions—if they happen simply to be in contact with some salvaging ritualistic practice. What sort of moral universe can be sustained if there is such a weak relation between intention and consequence?"

I really have trouble following the text here. Can the author provide a specific example?
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Oct 26, 2009 05:05 AM
22
Gayatri/ Lalit:

I entirely agree with you.

If Hinduism is really so outdated and ridiculous, why all the ceaseless overt and covert attacks on it? It is obviously unimportant.

Surely it is the spanking new, up-to-date, relevant,faiths, with shining, impeccable biblically-certified scientific status, Christianity and Islam, that ought to take the limelight?
Momeen Rashid
Delhi, India
Oct 26, 2009 03:40 AM
21
rashid

i find articles about hinduism to be boreing.
why does outlook waste so much time on this medieval,
religion of idol worshppers.

i would appreciate some articles on islam or christianity- we need broadening of our minds, and
more knowledge of these more modern religions.

will outlook oblige-
gayatri devi
delhi, India
Oct 26, 2009 01:15 AM
20
>>But, his readiness to sacrifice his thumb was an exemplary action of the offering of Gurudakshina, which is a great concept unique to Hinduism.

Such sewer mentality informs us even today in our debates over Reservations. Arjun, as a member of the privileged caste, needed CASTE BASED RESERVATION help to be a topper in Archery at IIT-Mahabharata (that's Indian Institute of Teleology-Mahabharata)!

Ekalavya's readiness to sacrifice his thumb is so great? A knucklehead like Arjun who can't stomach the idea of ACTUAL MERIT (better archer) in a low-caste chap needed QUOTA assistance (manipulating Ekalavya's respect for his guru into cutting off the thumb of an objectively great archer) to create an ARTIFICIAL superiority ranking determined solely by caste status?

Its a unique concept alright....but a great example of how morally hollow the gods are....and the culture they inspire...
Augustus AAA
Pune, India
Oct 25, 2009 10:38 PM
19
Ekalavya could have said no when his thumb was asked for. But, his readiness to sacrifice his thumb was an exemplary action of the offering of Gurudakshina, which is a great concept unique to Hinduism. Hindu baiters and brahmin haters have been wrongly portraying as an act of cruelty inflicted by a brahmin against a tribal. It is high time that these perverts are brought to their senses, though it is going to be a tall order.
R.Subramanian
Waterloo, Canada
Oct 25, 2009 10:31 PM
18
S.S.Nagaraj
Bangalore, India
Like how a corrupt persons moral standards are weak so are the media persons morality levels.They have sold themselves to adversaries of the Hindus for obvious reasons.Its no different than elite prostitution when if a new customer is found paying higher the regular customer will be kicked out.The media is not getting benefited monetarily from Hindus after all.You should have known this being a regular visitor on this forum that for these pseudo secular media anything that is Hindu is communal ism and allergic while anything at all for the Muslims and Christians alone is secularism.If they write on the immorality of the church priests then that media will be branded as Sanghi or communal.As simple as that.
vijay
Bangalore, India
Oct 25, 2009 10:28 PM
17
Augustus AAA
Pune, India
The twin sky scrapers were brought to ground by the war of the jihadis and the crusaders on September 11.What philosophy of Islam or Christianity that drives such acts to be perpetrated.If Hindu philosophy was at all built on quicksands as alleged by missionary craps like you then it would not have stood the test of time even with the onslaughts over it by its adversaries and enemies.
What is Hindutva is not necessary to be understood from an alien like Dongier.Simply because she has mastered Sanskrit it dosent mean she has become an authority on Hindu philosophy.
Why search for the worms in Hindu society and culture alone when the worlds most modern religions like Christianity and Islam through their dog fights are making this planet most unsafe place to live.
Hinduism has no need to learn morality from the immoral christian west.If bible or Koran was any better than Ramayana,Mahabharatha or Bhagvad-Geetha then we should not have seen what we are seeing.A religion sanctioning death or termination of a non beliver calling him as an infidel or a religion misusing the charity money collected from believers to convert the poor and unwary.
vijay
Bangalore, India
Oct 25, 2009 10:20 PM
16
MANISH BANERJEE
KOLKATA, India

Hindus need not learn anything from atheists and communists.If Hinduism is game of snakes and ladders then why the religion-less or anti religious communists ideology is biting the dust at places where it was born and once thrived.Why Islam is perfect then one brother is killing another on a daily basis.If Christianity is any better why it has lowest morality in the developed west.Yes its an umbrella in real term like it offers an umbrella to one who believes and will not take it back when it rains.
vijay
Bangalore, India
Oct 25, 2009 10:10 PM
15
Augustus AAA
Pune, India
The twin sky scrapers were brought to ground by the war of the jihadis and the crusaders on September 11.What philosophy of Islam or Christianity that drives such acts to be perpetrated.If Hindu philosophy was at all built on quicksands as alleged by missionary craps like you then it would not have stood the test of time even with the onslaughts over it by its adversaries and enemies.
What is Hindutva is not necessary to be understood from an alien like Dongier.Simply because she has mastered Sanskrit it dosent mean she has become an authority on Hindu philosophy.
Why search for the worms in Hindu society and culture alone when the worlds most modern religions like Christianity and Islam through their dog fights are making this planet most unsafe place to live.
Hinduism has no need to learn morality from the immoral christian west.If bible or Koran was any better than Ramayana,Mahabharatha or Bhagvad-Geetha then we should not have seen what we are seeing.A religion sanctioning death or termination of a non beliver calling him as an infidel or a religion misusing the charity money collected from believers to convert the poor and unwary.
vijay
Bangalore, India
Oct 25, 2009 06:57 PM
14
>In such a universe, meaning is never settled—and so, neither, is authority. Claimants to authority, from the gods themselves to the human scribes who record their doings to modern-day gurus who hold forth on the texts, climb up ladders but also slide down snake chutes.

That's the long & short of it . Hinduism is a game of snakes & ladder. Or an amorphous hotch potch of real, surreal & unreal. Make best of what you want to be. Hinduism will provide a moral- better still- religeous umbrella.
MANISH BANERJEE
KOLKATA, India
Oct 25, 2009 06:47 PM
13
>apparently eastern logic leads to the same destination
Any logic (western or eastern ("tarka") ) will reach no where in analyzing the spiritual aspects of Mahabharata and Karma theory. It is the subject matter of Darshana Shastra which only loosely connects with the western equivalent : "Philosophy"
amit
college station, USA
Oct 25, 2009 06:43 PM
12
>Its the Muslim's fault....how disappointingly predictable!
Well certain truths are obvious but still not perceived by some folks. History is the evidence. India made almost zeros progress from 1092 AD to 1857 AD in terms of science. Where as the preceding era was full of geniuses like Aryabhatta. What happened? Did indians suddenly lost their intellect? No Sir, they were shocked by a brutal killing machine. Prior to islam, the invaders adopted the indian culture and assimilated and contributed to it. For example even the Scythians (Shakas) did not commit massacres in india unlike europe. Kushans who came later converted to hinduism/buddhism and contributed to the development of culture whose ruins are still present in Afghanistan. On the other hand, west progressed as the Arabs transported knowledge from a conquered empire to europe where along-with revival of greek and latin thought, it paved the way to renaissance. Had it not for the brutality of crusaders, modern europe will not have come into existence. Indian kingdoms were not defeated by Islam because of civilizational faults, but because of brutality and deceit which was never encountered in the subcontinent before the predatory islamic expansion. Their is nothing disappointing about stating obvious truths which are forgotten by folks who always look to western academics for ideas about themselves.
amit
college station, USA
Oct 25, 2009 05:22 PM
11
>>so the Sanskrit texts were permeable to what she terms ‘deshification’—the absorption of local, ‘small’ traditions.

a plausible claim since Krishna was a local god of one tribe enters the Hindu pantheon and works his way up to its top; I suspect the political necessity of Vedic immigrants to conquer Krishna tribe as they moved East led them to deploy the useful absorption logic that Krishna was simply yet another incarnation of Vedic gods.

>>In such a universe, meaning is never settled—and so, neither, is authority.... This fosters an internal pluralism: within the individual, the possibility of internal conflict between the demands of society’s moral code and a more universal ethics is never resolved or far from the surface.

pluralism? may be; confusion? definitely!

>>The recognition of ambiguous meaning also enables, though in more complex and sometimes attenuated ways, an attitude of pluralism towards other moral cosmologies and religions.

I don't see that at all as it relates to cosmologies/religions that have different starting assumptions.

>>The astonishing plurality of Hindu thought—its vast ocean of polydox beliefs—is only matched by its equally staggering orthopraxy, the unchanging rigidity of social patterns and practices. The old Hindus seem to have perfected ‘repressive tolerance’ well before Herbert Marcuse discovered it in California.

A Marxist interpreter like Marcuse is unhelpful. However, more insightful is Hindu thought severs any connection between doctrine and praxis. That severance allows for embrace of ANY and ALL ideas, including contradictory ones, along with claims of alleged pluralism. But, what that means in reality is that ideas simply aren't important enough. If they were, they'd be carefully sifted with the intention that praxis will be affected by good ideas and also defended from bad ones.

>>The Mahabharata poses the problem of the world’s moral irrationality. If the concept of Karma appears to suggest a rational moral economy—that my present action will have a future pay-off—this idea is constantly subverted in the Mahabharata, where one more throw of the dice again and again determines the moral horizon.

One can see the seeds for the ubiquitous "corruption" in all aspects of life in India from such ideas sanctioned by the highest moral texts.

>>“The Mahabharata sees a vice behind every virtue, a snake behind every horse, and a doomsday behind every victory,” Doniger writes, and so every moral choice and act is somehow the wrong choice.

over multiple generations, the corrosive effect of such ideas can be hardly understated...there's absolutely no moral or philosophical basis left for moral discrimination then...

>>In fact, the notion of Karma so diffuses the location of merit and de-merit, makes them such mobile and transferable qualities that it is impossible to track causality.

Another effect is our inability to understand causalities in History.

>>What sort of moral universe can be sustained if there is such a weak relation between intention and consequence?

the kind we live in....to paraphrase Naipaul, with yet another level of moral and philosophical degradation to be discovered just around the corner...

>>More disappointing in this important book is Doniger’s treatment of recent history. Kipling and Foster are her orienting stars in discussing the colonial period, and she conveys little sense of the intellectual ferment in India at the time—the many experiments with religion, politics, caste, and the different meanings that Hindu ‘reform’ came to hold.

There wasn't a realistic possibility of such reform ideas to fundamentally alter practice. Therefore, they were never going to be influential.

>>This leads directly to the book’s greatest weakness—the absence of any serious explanation of Hindutva...what it is about the potentialities within Hinduism, and what it is about the Hindus at this point in their history, that have conspired to breathe life into such versions of Hinduism.

Hindutva is an attempt by middle-class intellectuals to erect a moral-political-social skyscraper for the whole of Indian society on the quicksands of Hindu philosophy.
Augustus AAA
Pune, India
Oct 25, 2009 04:33 PM
10
auggie

there is an article in newseek about the situation of
christians in somalia. similar situations exist in iraq, pakistan,egypt and else where.

problems created by islam in its long march from mecca
to today are not hinduh propaganda. it exists in every
western country.

however for reasons not known you have a deep hatred for hinduism, and this makes you blind to the faults even of your worst enemies.

there is no cure known for this mental disability.
gayatri devi
delhi, India
Oct 25, 2009 04:07 PM
9
>>The rigidity in hindu thought is predominantly a reflection of muslim invasion, conquest and oppression.

Its the Muslim's fault....how disappointingly predictable!


>>If Mahabharata is analyzed with rigid rules of western logic, you will reach nowhere...

apparently eastern logic leads to the same destination..
Augustus AAA
Pune, India
Oct 25, 2009 10:42 AM
8
Wendy Doniger is a product of one of the many universities in the US of A, which have departments dedicated in their own strange way to studying cultures and religions.Doniger follows much the same pattern as Max Mueller, who was acknowledged by his caucasian ilk as a vedic scholar and yet could not understand Sanskrit when spoken to in that language by Dayanand Saraswati.Classic cases of academics pursuing academics for academic purposes and laying waste innumerable trees in the process.
One can understand Penguin/Viking trying to make money by peddling this stuff in the US or the UK. Do they really think that there are suckers in India who would pay for this tripe ?
Shiv Adiseshan
Chennai, India
Oct 25, 2009 07:23 AM
7
Why does outlook have to suck up to half baked ignoramuses like Ms. Wendy repeatedly. Mr Khilnani, I would like to comment on two of your concerns. You wonder that how hindu plurality meshes with the rigidity of hindutva. The answer is that the hey days of the these two are separated by millennia. They did not co-exist. The times of khazuraho were pre-islam when multiple strains and philosophies of hinduism thrived without fear. The rigidity in hindu thought is predominantly a reflection of muslim invasion, conquest and oppression. On the second issue about the contradictions in Mahabharata regarding Karma and Chance, you ignore a fundamental feature of the Epic, and that is the superhuman nature of Krishna. As repeated many times in the text and in Gita, Krishna as the master of the universe is beyond the bonds of Karma. The concept of lila also gives considerable freedom to God to operate beyond the rigid rules of Karma. If Mahabharata is analyzed with rigid rules of western logic, you will reach nowhere, unlike Ms. Wendy who manages to find juicy sexual tidbits to keep the attention of her audience.
amit
college station, USA
Oct 25, 2009 03:24 AM
6
Wendy Doniger wants to make money, lots of that from Indians through this sh*t of a book. Ignore the book and the writer and save some hard earned Indian money.
M. Srinivasulu
Hyderabad, India
Oct 24, 2009 11:58 PM
5
Enter The Indian Sepoy, on cue. Rajiv Malhotra's analysis of this in RISA LILA is so true! Colonialism is not dead, it just reinvented itself.

http://indianrealist...y-reinvented-itself/
Narasimhan M.G
Bangalore, India
Oct 24, 2009 10:21 PM
4
Onething is clear, Madam Doniger is happy atleast by look at her face in the photo. And thats what is all about Sanatana Dharma. Some take the philosophical aspect of hinduism to be happy whereas some like Doniger take the sexual aspect. Let her and her followers be happy.

Coming back to our own outlook editors. I remember a westener saying that it is so unfortunate that texts like Bhagavat Gita have been handed over to the wrong people because they do not know how to preserve it in its true sense :). Very true. Sorry sir, however you should be happy that the Holy Bible is safe in your hands.
SudeeRao
Sunnyvale, United States
Oct 24, 2009 09:11 PM
3
When will Mr Vinod Mehta give us a break from this cycle of writeups on contradictions in Hindu mythology and give us the refreshing and juicy current affairs of sexuality in Catholic church,like on the book 'Amen' or Sister Abhaya murder case?Please admit you don't have the guts.
S.S.Nagaraj
Bangalore, India
Oct 24, 2009 08:00 PM
2
I did read your policy.. My comment to Ganapati qualifies to be deleted because it is not limited to the subject matter of the article. But so does a lot of comments.

Anyways your deletion of my comments seem arbitrary.
Selvan
Boston, United States
Oct 24, 2009 07:17 PM
1
What Wendy has definitely forgotten is that religion, creation, spirituality and worship are beyond our ability to date, trace, correlate or ascertain.
She is ladling the ocean into a bucket with a leaky sieve...cant be done.
What our argumentative Faithful of all shades are doing is defending the indefensible...and becoming jokers in the bargain.
Good fun for all but I can see too many bruised feelings...seriously Wendy is trendy and not to be taken seriously...
Bindu Tandon
Mumbai, India
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