Photographs Courtesy: Navsarjan Trust
We have a voice: Balmiki children at the public hearing at Sabarmati ashram
gujarat: dalit children
Manu Over Ambedkar
Gujarat’s Balmiki kids face daily humiliations in school and village

Our Kids, Their Kids

  • Children of safai karmacharis in Gujarat are forced by teachers to clean toilets and mop floors in school
  • They are abused and beaten if they refuse to do the menial tasks
  • Treated as untouchables and kept at arm’s length by upper caste students 
  • In some areas, they are not even allowed to drink from a common source of water
  • Reports of their notebooks never being corrected since teachers don’t like to handle their books

***

They had, it seems, come from all corners of Gujarat. From Gandhinagar to tribal Panchmahals, from Porbandar on the western coast to the Dangs at its southern tip. The children arrived at the Mahatma’s Sabarmati ashram, lining up solemnly in their new Gandhi caps. At the gates, they were welcomed with handwoven cotton thread malas by elderly Gandhian leaders.

They were children of safai karamcharis, Balmiki kids used to watching their parents sweep public streets and private homes and clean filthy toilets. The children were at the ashram to share their ‘experiences’ with a fact-finding panel, tales of being forced to clean toilets and mop floors in school, of horrific discrimination by their upper-caste schoolmates and teachers. They came to the podium in line, district by district, took the mike to tell their stories. Matter of fact, stating the facts somewhat baldly. There was no wallowing in pity, in ‘vibrant Gujarat’ this was how life was for them.

Pooja, a fifth standard student, says they are not even allowed to take water from the drinking water matka: “The kids from the ‘upper’ castes blow air and do ‘phoo phoo’ to cleanse themselves if we touch them by mistake. Or they sprinkle water on the spot we touch.... The teachers don’t want to touch our homework books. So they are never corrected. I clean the toilets. I have to. Because the teacher tells us to do it. We are Bhangis. No one in school would like to be friends with us. They say ‘Hey Bhangi door bes, (sit far away)’.”

Prakash, from Mohua taluka of Kheda district, is in the seventh standard. “I clean toilets in school.” “Why do you do this?” the panel asks him. He looks puzzled, it’s obviously a stupid question. “Because the teacher tells me to....” “Why do you obey him?” Wasn’t it obvious? “Because I’ll get a beating if I don’t obey.” What do you want to be when you grow up?” the panel asks. “A teacher.” “Why a teacher?” “Because I want a life of dignity,” Prakash replies shyly.

Aarti, in the seventh standard and studies in a Girls High School in Patan district. “I clean the classroom and the toilets three times a week.” “Why do you do this?” “Because the principal asks us to do it,” she replies. “How does he know you are a Balmiki?” “From my name. If we say we don’t want to clean toilets, they beat us. Three Balmiki girls, Sangeeta, Raksha and Daksha, were beaten because they didn’t want to clean the toilets.”

In the schools, the pattern is almost always the same. The teacher or principal asks “all the Bhangi children to stand up”. Then they are allotted the toilet cleaning duties.

Rahul is an unusual name for a Balmiki kid. He disposes of dead animals for Rs 10. He also cleans the toilets and urinals at school. Have you heard of Rahul Gandhi, someone inevitably asks. “No,” he replies. “Didn’t you see him on TV during the elections?” “I don’t think so.”

Jayesh, in the 10th, is sharply turned out. Maroon shirt, cream trousers, hair smartly cut. A mobile peeps out of his pocket. It’s hard to believe that the lad regularly mucks about in manholes to earn some extra money. But he dreams of doing a BBA, getting a job in an office. “If I pass my BBA and get a job, I will never do this work again,” he declares.


A Dalit girl deposing before the panel

The public hearing involving some 1,000 Balmiki children was held before a panel comprising former acting chief justice of Gujarat R.A. Mehta, Sabarmati Ashram secretary Amrut Modi, former member of the National Commission for Safai Karmacharis Ishwarbhai Patel, Gujarati political scientist Professor Ghanshyam Shah and Dalit leader Martin Macwan.

At the hearing, findings from a study conducted in 12 districts of Gujarat by the Navsarjan Trust, a Gujarat-based ngo working for Dalit rights, was shared. The object of the survey was to highlight the children’s plight and bring it to the notice of the government, the public and the courts. Later, principal secretary, state education department, Hasmukh Adhia, provided a somewhat cryptic soundbite, “If such cases of discrimination are brought to our notice, we will put the children in main schools.”

 
 
The teachers ask “all the Bhangi kids to stand up”. They are then allotted toilet cleaning duties.
 
 
The strange fact is these children are just the tip of the iceberg. And in a state which has supposedly won governance awards and corporate seals of approval. It is now even the home of the Nano. All these kids work for a pittance, cleaning manure pits, dragging dead animals, helping their parents to sweep streets, mop floors, clear garbage, clean toilets. In schools they are forced to do this for free. In the evenings the children accompany their parents to collect leftovers from the homes their mothers work in. It’s known as “baasi” or stale food. Mulk Raj Anand described it graphically in his 1935 novel, Untouchable. Seven decades on, it’s almost as if time has stood still. Their situation remains the same. Vile, degrading, a disgrace to humanity.

The children are bullied in their villages as well as at school. If the sarpanch or an upper-caste person orders them to do a job, they cannot refuse. If the “malik” is kindly disposed, he may give the child ten rupees, twenty if he’s magnanimous. But the caste system brooks no dispute. “If they don’t do these jobs, who will?” is the genuinely astonished refrain in many villages. Feudal India has not changed in spite of Independence, an egalitarian Constitution and sixty years of laws against untouchability.

Throughout Gujarat, Balmiki children in government schools are arbitrarily pulled out of class for menial jobs. Surprisingly, in most instances, the authorities feel no wrong has been done. No one mentions a certain 1989 Scheduled Caste and Scheduled Tribes Prevention of Atrocities Act, which says offenders can be jailed for mistreating Dalit children. The only way to stop the victimisation is if stringent action is initiated against the perpetrators. Rather late in the day, but Dalit organisations have arrived at a point where petitions are filed braving the wrath of the many power brokers of society.

Professor Ghanshyam Shah, a panellist at the camp, feels “the courts should take up the children’s statements on a suo motu basis”. Justice Mehta too agrees that this is “definitely a case for the Gujarat courts”. So, will the heads of errant officials roll? Will the courts take action? Or will these abhorrent practices continue for another 50 years? 

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COLLAPSE COMMENTS :
HAVE YOUR SAY
Oct 26, 2009 09:12 AM
79
It is tragic that children face discrimination even in the classroom, as Mari sensitively brings out in her article. I have observed such discrimination not only in Gujarat, but also others parts of India. A recent survey showed that in one-third of village schools, dalit children are still made to sit separately, and cannot eat mid-day meals with other children. There is no point in responding with denial, but instead we should resolve that to start with classrooms should be zero discrimination zones, where children are taught that people are valued because of their character rather than the caste or faith to which they are born.
Harsh Mander
Delhi, India
Oct 25, 2009 11:46 PM
78
St. Xavier's Collegiate School, 1966-76, Wood Street, grades 1-5: daily sight, even thought the head, Fr. Sassel continuously moved around the grounds, missing not a single thing, ESPECIALLY during lunchtime.

In the lunch areas, garbage cans were placed covered by rusty tin covers, really filthy with rotting food eaten away with rust. Within the school, were various groups, including Santhals as gatekeepers an sme other, presumably "dom" classes as sweepers, converts all. These latter, without any coercion or encouragement, woul scavenge the garbage cans, consuming the leftover tiffins, rice, etc. left there from the lunch area. The Jesuit priests noticed these things. NEVER ONCE did they either teach their students to not carelessly waste good food, when India was passing through her worst food crises, nor didthey have any illuminating conversations with these converts, rice christians for the most part. What value did their conversion have, if they did not get any further enlightenment? Or a living wage from the Jesuits, that would persuade them not to scavenge from a garbage can, with all sorts of food mixed in? OUTLOOK, that never fails to mock Hinduism, can interview SEVERAL THOUSAND XAVERIANS WHO HAVE PASSED through the CALCUTTA SMALL SCHOOL 1960-1966-76 and cannot NOT HAVE NOTICED WHAT I have just described. Let them also write a thoughtful analysis as to why such practices were allowed to continue in such a famous Jesuit institution, and no steps taken to enlighten students, staff, parents and authorities about the sheer vileness & inhumanity of this event continuing in full sight.

I am quite sure it is still going on NOW. So it is not just Gujarat and Manu, whom none of you have cared to read or undrstan, because OUTLOOK is on a crusade against Hinduism. Unless you are a practicing a path, you cannot understand anything. That is why there is no path called Hinduism or Buddhism. There is the Sanatana Dharma that does not recognize any groups, any people, ANY CASTE BY BIRTH, I REPEAT, CASTE BY BIRTH. That same MANU does not accept caste by BIRTH, nor does the Gita.

Please do not teach us our own religion. In my particular Shakta path, diksha MUST be accompanied by abhisheka. That is followed by purna abhisheka, comprehensive abhisheka, at the discretion of the teacher and att he appropriate time. At that moment, anyone, ANYONE, even an ANT, becomes the equal of a brahman, even more, with full athority to practice anything, initiate or teach anyone, include brahmanas. Certainly with the krama diksha, all of the above apply with even more force.

Gaude prakAshitA vidyA.... kincin kincin MahArashtre Gurjare pralayamgatA: no wonder we have such a sad state of affairs there. Get a Gaudiya Vaishnava or Shakta teacher of true worth to offer full initiation to these children. That will automatically bring them to brahminhood, if they choose that external designation, with full authority over all rites. However, our path is SARVOPADHI VINIRMUKTAM, to become devoid of all discrete attributes, beause that is the true nature of both the Sanatana Dharma and, thus, human nature. Having become devoid of adventitious attributes, e.g. Hindu, Muslim, high/low, brahmin/not, TATPARAH TE NIRMALAM : s/he/soul becomes profoundly pure by utter immersion into THAT.

It is the task of religious teachers to teach correct & true versions of DHARMA as well as to challenge distorted, false, & ill-motivated stories. That is why one suggests resorting to true teachers in Gujarat, because they carry with them an unbroken pure lineage of blessings. I have yet to discover that in any non Indian group, hard as I have looked and although I have found good people there, but no lineage.
a. bosc
New York, United States
Oct 25, 2009 05:50 AM
77
vijay
Bangalore, India

Another 'avtar' of 'stopperbhai"
ahmad pasha
long island, United States
Oct 24, 2009 11:31 PM
76
Where are the Human Rights Commisions, the courts, in enforcing the "Prevention of Atrocities against Dalits and all the other bodies put in place expressedly to prevent the humiliation and denigration of these folks?
The Sarpanch of every village where such hate-crimes are committed against these historically oppressed and marginalized folks, should be arrested and prosecuted.
The state govts must also be held liable for allowing such criminal activities to go unchecked and unpunished.
Bodh
Springfield, United States
Oct 24, 2009 10:08 PM
75
siddiqi

i am growing through a book about afghanistan, mainly from say 1850 to the present.

the afghans are a tribal society with clans from various ethnic communities. their main traits-amongst
the villagers, less educated- are a great feeling of
xenophobia, religion obsessed, and antiwomen.

from 1932 afghans rulers tried to modernise the country, and they got considerable help from russia, usa, germany,japan and india.

however the emergence of the communist party, and
communist rule in 1979 brought an end to peaceful
developments. the communist rule ended in 1992, and after this muslim fundamentalists eg taliban took over
with help from usa and pakistan.

the taliban lost out in 2001, but you know the rest.
violence ,intolerance, killing are now endemic.

the alternatives now seem to be medievalism with some
sort of peace under the taliban, or violence and killing as now .

its like a choice between pest and cholera.

russia, usa, pakistan, and arab states can be accused
of creating problems in afghanistan.

the rivalry of russia and usa was the main cause of
the problems- pakistan became a willing tool of the usa
in arming and organiseing the taliban.

this country is the devils gift to humanity.
gayatri devi
delhi, India
Oct 23, 2009 11:13 PM
74
Gayatri Devi,

"...arrange an exhibition about afghanistan in copenhagen..."

Thats great!!! Can you share some more info on that??
sadiq siddiqui
mysore, India
Oct 23, 2009 10:50 PM
73
siddiqui

i am planning to arrange an exhibition about afghanistan in copenhagen. it will exhibit pictures
and show how the country has fared in the last 50 years.

i talked to the afghan embassy in oslo today, and
sent them a proposal as well by mail.

i dont know if it will come through- it requires
help from various insitutions.

however this may give you an idea about the sort of person i am- impulsive, brash, but with good intentions.
gayatri devi
delhi, India
Oct 23, 2009 08:11 PM
72
Rajesh,

"...RSS/VHP don't represent the entire Hindu community..."

That was the point I was trying to make. Just as RSS and VHP do not represent the entire hindu community, in the same way Jihadis and extremists do not represent the muslim community...
sadiq siddiqui
mysore, India
Oct 23, 2009 08:10 PM
71
Vijay,

"...Every bad action will definitely and deservingly shall have ruthless reaction like The Gujarath to Godhra..."

Killings of innocents can never be justified, be it Godhra killings or riots that followed.
When you say Gujarat carnage was a reaction to Godhra incident, what else can it be interpreted as? And if according to you Gujarat riots are justified then every atrocity, every genocide and every inhuman act can be justified.
sadiq siddiqui
mysore, India
Oct 23, 2009 08:09 PM
70
Gayatri Devi,

Now that you have stopped speaking incendiary language you are making more sense.. we can have a dialogue...

"...they did not accept..."

There are always difference of opinion so its not necessary that everyone accepts what you suggest. I was not there to hear what you suggested so I cannot comment on that.

"...i suggest you read a book called "stranger to history"

by aarish taseer. it will widen your horison..."
I ve already read that book. Anyway thank you for your suggestion. My horizons are already broad.

"..as an agnostic i prefer to meet with ..."

Well... After reading your comments i doubt that..
Let me tell you that I am an atheist to the core. But still I am a part of muslim community and if the whole community is blamed for unjust acts of few morons then I cannot keep quiet. I find it my duty to speak up as a part of muslim community.

"...to prod people into the realm of religion..."

Perhaps you are being too harsh on the editor. This article and all the articles and editorials for that matter are neutral. Its people like you who make hindu-muslim-christian issue of everything. This article only highlights a grave problem of indian society and looking it from a religious angle would be naive.
sadiq siddiqui
mysore, India
Oct 23, 2009 06:25 PM
69
Those who dream of doing BBA's and improving their lot in life, do not understand, that their aspirations are the same as those others, who do BBA's and do not care about them. I believe, that there must be a way out, despite not doing BBA's and MBA's, and despite not scavenging. Those who force others to scavenge, have no standing in the eyes of the scavenger, however prosperous they may be. The whole idea is not to become BBA's but to perhaps, live an acceptable, uneventful life.
Aditya Mookerjee
Belgaum, India
Oct 23, 2009 10:52 AM
68
Sadiq,
>> But propagating hatred will alienate the community further and aggravate the problems instead of solving them.

Do you want outsiders to come and solve your problem? If no then don't blame other for your problem. If you go this path then for every problem you will find some external cause.

>> Most acts of terror India are perpetrated by foreign individuals or organizations.

Agreed. But still there are lot of cases when Indian muslims extended help to foreign terrorists. Mumbai attack would not be possible if there were no internal moles.

>> Didnt the hindus remain silent after and during the Gujarat pogroms of 2002 where hundreds of innocent muslims were butchered?

Yes. Hindus in Gujarat and also elsewhere have serious problem. In open they deny such events, and in reality there have no problem in killing Muslims. In Gujarat, family men from middle class went to Muslim neighborhood, committed rape and murder, came back to home and ate dinner. It is despicable.
But remember Muslims are not the only target. Dalits are not treated less severely and most incidences go unreported. What is needed for Muslims and Dalits to come together and confront upper caste hindu bigots.

>> A painting of a hindu Goddess by an art student of MS University, Baroda, was enough for the hindu fundamentalists to ransack the MSU campus

These are isolated incidences. RSS/VHP don't represent the entire Hindu community.
Danish cartoon episodes were different. First there were uproars and riots in all Muslim countries and communities. Then leadership of all Muslim countries came together and demanded global ban in depicting Muhammand in cartoon or any other art form. All of a sudden there was a'haa moment as if Id's moon appeared unseasonally . I think it illustrates the sickness of Muslim psych.
Rajesh
Phoenix, United States
Oct 23, 2009 07:56 AM
67
sadiq siddiqui
mysore, India
I would never defend any one including Hindus on violent activities.But telling facts if regarded as hatred against Muslims then its not my fault.I am not even supporting,defending,justifying or proxying for another poster here.
You can read posts by our Anwarbhai who pretends like a liberal Muslim but will never let an opportunity slip his hands where he can sympathise or defend any damn jihadi cause.He is one unlike you that unnecessarily interprets one who hates a jihadi as a hate monger or ant Muslim/moron/Sanghi/Bhajarangi etc etc.
I too do not relish any stuff on a personal level.But its my privilege to defend and protest when ever my beliefs are challenged.We worry here about stereotyping but we have an entire pseudo secular media in India who are more stereotyping than the ordinary people.For them Godhra is a non Issue while Gujarat is an important one.This is what is concerning me too.
vijay
Bangalore, India
Oct 23, 2009 07:43 AM
66
sadiq siddiqui
mysore, India
you to Rajesh.

I agree with you that all communities have their own problems,limitations and weaknesses but to consider the patience and tolerance as inherent weakness of Hindus is the biggest mistake the Muslims are doing.It wont be far when the peace loving and law abiding Muslims will start hating the very jihadi elements within their society and get alienated from them for better.If not it will be the Muslims that will have to face the brunt like how innocent Muslims are facing the heat from jihadi/Talibaani thugs in Pakistan.
A new but ugly development which has dangerous portents if not checked by the Muslims themselves like the reported 'Love Jihad' from Karnataka and Kerala then the community may have to pay a huge price in near future.Every bad action will definitely and deservingly shall have ruthless reaction like The Gujarath to Godhra.This is not a justification of violence.
Well, here I wont agree with you.The Hindus have always opposed and protested terrorism of any hues starting with Jihadis,missionary led groups,LTTE,ULFA,Naxalites and Maoists.How many Muslim celebrities ,thinkers,religious leaders have come forward to protest the Godhra carnage or after serial blasts and 26/11.There may be many who were smiling with their lips closed while the tolerant and liberal Muslims did not venture to face them .Have we not seen Muslim women dancing on the streets in Iraq and Palestine the minutes after the twin towers were razed to ground on September 11 and seen shouting slogans like 'Death to America' and distributing sweets and candies.Is this not dancing naked over the dead bodies of the innocents buried under the debris of the twin towers.
Your saying that most of the terrorist attacks in India are the result of the conspiracies of outsiders.But even a insane person knows that there can't be smoke without a fire.Unless there is local hand incidents of the levels of 26/11 are impossible.No one is blaming the entire Muslim community when jihadies are hated and criticized.We Indians know that ordinary people from all sections of the society oppose terrorism and anti national activities.Mere slogans and meetings will be eye wash,until and unless the Muslim community disowns these jihadi elements in public the non Muslim world would continue to look at the Muslims with suspicion and apprehension.
Hindus had reason to remain silent after or during the Gujarat trouble as even you are aware who are behind the Godhra carnage where innocent Hindus were burnt alive in Broad day light.You must not forget that during the Gujarat riot more than two hundred Hindus too were killed and that too many from Police firing.If Gujarat was a pogroms then what was Godhra.Why more than thousand Muslims armed with deadly weapon and petrol bombs were present at that tiny railway station at Godhra since early morning.If it was an accidental fire why the bogies were stoned heavily in the first place.We have a gory historical past of India behind us and tells us who were and are the perpetual victims and the perpetrators.
Are the Muslims not voting for Muslim league who was behind the partition of the country.How many Muslims lke you have spoken when your brothers in Kashmir butchered non Muslims,carried on ethnic cleansing,desecrated and destroyed and demolished scores of Hindu temples there.Two wrongs may not make any one right.Are the Muslims living in Mumbai not aware of the people behind 26/11 and still pretend as if nothing happened.
There is more to that incident at Baroda campus.One of the faculties happened to be from Kerala and who has a known leftist leaning and who are generally known as Muslim ass lickers instigated a student to deliberately go ahead with perverted stuff.May be your uncle that Mad.Freak Hussein is the inspiration.Who knows.Why you get the pinch only when some one is doing what you hate to hear and see like that controversial Danish cartoon.I never supported such a stuff too.But look how the Muslims reacted and how the Christitan missionaries too reacted over Dan Browns'Da Vinci Code' which is no different in approach and style of the so called Bhajarangies on Hussein.
vijay
Bangalore, India
Oct 23, 2009 01:07 AM
65
siddiqi

i have allways tried to help muslims whenever i could.

in copenhagen i went out of my way to make friends
with a pakistani activist, and once invited 10 of his friends for a chat.

purpose was to tell them how to get on in business.

they did not accept.

i will not blame muslims- i think their upbringing makes them suspicious of nonmuslims.the same goes for hindus.

i suggest you read a book called "stranger to history"
by aarish taseer. it will widen your horison.

all in all, religion and its culture devides society.
as an agnostic i prefer to meet with people who do not
pay much attention to religion.

there is a huge world outside religion- its possible
to experience on the nett- i do it and find all kinds
of wonderful things.

its a pity we choose to ignore all of this-

i find that in this weekly rag, the editor continues
to prod people into the realm of religion. he has
no idea outside his little world. everything else
science, environment , book reviews , the world outside
his narrow mindset is ignored.
gayatri devi
delhi, India
Oct 23, 2009 12:37 AM
64
Rajesh,

"..You must acknowledge that Muslim communities have problem..."

I have never denied that muslim community has many serious problems to deal with. But propagating hatred will alienate the community further and aggravate the problems instead of solving them.

"...They remain silent when terrorists kill innocents..."

Acts of terror in any form are unjustifiable. Most acts of terror India are perpetrated by foreign individuals or organizations. Ordinary muslim citizens have never supported these acts as they are the ones who are affected the most. Muslims do express their outrage as does the rest of society against such acts.

Let me ask you this... Didnt the hindus remain silent after and during the Gujarat pogroms of 2002 where hundreds of innocent muslims were butchered? They not only remained silent but voted the people responsible back to power. What would you say about that?? I have studied in Ahmedabad for 4 years and u believe it or not most of the affluent and middle class hindus i interacted with thought nothing wrong in whatever happened in 2002.

"...Only a Danish cartoon prompts the community to unite and protest..."

A painting of a hindu Goddess by an art student of MS University, Baroda, was enough for the hindu fundamentalists to ransack the MSU campus.
Remember MF Hussain... He continues to live in exile due to controversy created by his paintings.. Bajrang dal activists attacked his house and vandalized his art work..
sadiq siddiqui
mysore, India
Oct 22, 2009 10:35 PM
63
Hindus are probably the most despicable people in the world- they have no sense of compassion or humanity.
They blindly accept the evil caste system without question and not just condone but perpetuate the oppression, denigration and humiliation of the so-called "Outcastes" or Dalits, without the slightest twinge of guilt or remorse- because its their divine right to treat these poor people thus.
It's also THE Reason why they have been continually conquered and ruled by successive foreign invaders, most notoriously, the Muslims- the overwhelming majority of converts to that faith came from the lowest castes of the Hindu social hierarchy. Ditto for those converting to Christianity, and now those converting to Buddhism.
Bodh
Springfield, United States
Oct 22, 2009 02:29 PM
62
>Their conscience does not feel the disgust because >their mental makeup which has been shaped by >scriptural ordinance.

show me one verse from manusmriti which condemns a people from scavenging.

today any caste issue is directly linked to manu. but nobody has read manu because the population has been cut off from sanskrit.

issues like this are cultural and have nothing to do with religion. such atrocities have no scriptural sanction.
nandakumar
chennai, india
Oct 22, 2009 01:26 PM
61
P. B. Joshipura, I am afraid, is under misgivings that he did not see or hear instances of the kind portrayed in the report, in his school in Gujarat. Those who are practioners of the kind of atrocities will rarely realize that they are commtting crimes. They have lost sensitivity to lower order(s) of the society since ages of conviction that they are ordained and/or privileged to do what they do/did. Their conscience does not feel the disgust because their mental makeup which has been shaped by scriptural ordinance. So calling the report "humbug" is unfortunate and betrays the class/layer he belongs.
I once again stress that the principals who are accused of forcing Balmiki students to clean school toiletts and sweep classrooms and compounds be compelled to pay wages to those students at rates of wages prescibed by the government for the areas. The payment shall be made to their SB accounts opened in nationalized banks.
If the principals do not comply, the government should credit the wages to their accounts and realize it from their salaries, pensions, gratuity, etc. Till this is done, the principals should be asked to remain off duty. They may be given three months for this. Failing that dateline, they shall be placed under suspension and departmental action initiated against them.
A.K.B iswas
Calcutta, India
Oct 22, 2009 01:19 PM
60
Since that fateful day when the Gujarat state attempted to prevent the gullible being drowned in baptism water to hoodwink them to accept the Christian skygoD Jesus as their personal savior and thus save them from the ‘oppressive’ caste system, the fundie Christians in India do not seem to have slept even a wink as could be seen from the whining of Marie Marcel Thekkekara, against fellow beings being discriminated against, as if Gujarat is the last spot on this earth where this obnoxious practice has been continuing and every where else human beings sit on each other’s lap singing lullabies in each other’s ears and feeding ham sandwiches to each other.

Discrimination against fellow beings is a disease born out of human prejudices and no religious system has ever been able to eliminate it though no civilized society has been sitting idle in its fight against such social evils. Just because in India it is practiced as ‘caste’ discrimination it does not make it more obnoxious than other forms of discrimination such as the Bible goD sanctioned slavery, color or even comparative size of the human ears, facial features etc in other parts of the world. A prominent Catholic functionary in the U.S, Patrick Donahue, brings out annual reports listing instances of how fellow Catholics are horribly discriminated in America by the other Christians and non Christians which is a tear jerking document.

Just because the caste system is prevalent in India among the Hindus and not among the Christians, to use it as a stick to beat the Hindus with as being the only instrument available to human beings to practice discrimination against fellow beings in the world is an example of lessons on sheer Jesuitry taught to the likes of Marie Marcels in their bible classes. Her problem is that she is religiously sick and not that she cares two pins for the suffering of human beings.
c p narendran
nagpur, india
Oct 22, 2009 12:46 PM
59
What can one except from a region where crossbelts run riot and explicit brahminical racism (both symbolic and by practice) is exhibited right from the highest echelons of power (b*stard Manu's statute in front of Rajasthan high court).
Senthamarai
Chennai, India
Oct 22, 2009 10:42 AM
58
SADIQ,
>> Just because of few notorious and antisocial elements in the muslim community the whole community is being hated and thought of as evil.

Now the question is - how many antisocial elements it take to bring bad name to the entire community? Not many. Certainly Muslims community in most countries have enough bad elements.

You must acknowledge that Muslim communities have problem. You might say that no community is free of problem. I don't blame every Muslims. In fact most Muslims are good individuals. But as community they have some serious problems. They remain silent when terrorists kill innocents. They even don't have problem when muslims kill each other. Only a Danish cartoon prompts the community to unite and protest. Terrorists are born not due to some random chain of events, but due to the environment that exist within the community.
Rajesh
Phoenix, United States
Oct 22, 2009 04:08 AM
57
siddiqui

have you read what m.j.kbar wrote about indian muslims-

they are a sick limb

faruki-

except for a few doctors, lawyers the rest drive rickshaws.

sachar committe- muslims were worse of then dalits.

all of this is sterotyping. this can not be avoided.

americans are called loudmouthed and show offs.

germans are said to be arrogant and brutal-

hindus are called weak and cowardly.

dont bother if you are allright. have confidence in yourself. you will be respected for what you are.
people ultimately are not given credit ,or abused
for what the larger community does.

there are many muslims who have done well in india
and abroad- they get all the respect for this.

i note that people from the various communities dislike
each other- certainly many from the minority religions
seem to hate hindus. it gets to be tiresome to read them.

i know that in denmark muslims seem to get more negative attention then other immigrants. believe me
i am not responsible for this ill feeling.

this is something the whole community must correct,
rather then playing the victim.

sorry if i have hurt your feelings-
gayatri devi
delhi, India
Oct 21, 2009 11:03 PM
56
Mr. Vijay,

My point is precisely what you have said. Just because of few notorious and antisocial elements in the muslim community the whole community is being hated and thought of as evil.

"...If you think that some one if is hating an evil jihadi/IM/SIMI/LeT that dosent mean he is hating the entire Muslim community.."

Perhaps you need to read carefully the posts of person who you are defending. In every post posted by that person muslims are being stereotyped. Stereotyping is first step to persecution. That is what concerns me.
sadiq siddiqui
mysore, India
Oct 21, 2009 11:03 PM
55
Mr. Vijay,

My point is precisely what you have said. Just because of few notorious and antisocial elements in the muslim community the whole community is being hated and thought of as evil.

"...If you think that some one if is hating an evil jihadi/IM/SIMI/LeT that dosent mean he is hating the entire Muslim community.."

Perhaps you need to read carefully the posts of person who you are defending. In every post posted by that person muslims are being stereotyped. Stereotyping is first step to persecution. That is what concerns me.
sadiq siddiqui
mysore, India
Oct 21, 2009 10:08 PM
54
Anwar(to Gayatri Devi)

Most of the Muslims have a bad and equally wrong opinion against America and the west.I am not either a supporter of any country which has a vested interests against my country.Most of the Muslims even today regard America as Islam's enemy number one.So is the West which is regards the Muslim world as not doing enough to fight the jihadism particularly after 9/11.Even Indians have a similar views after Godhra,carnages in Kashmir and the serial blasts culminating in 26/11.But I am a firm believer of natural justice.Pakistan thought it can never have a problem from Jihadis.Look at its fate now.It wont be long when law abiding and peace loving Muslims across the globe spit on the face of the jihadis and its sympathisers.
Any one can admire America for how they run the administration,facilities for the people or returns for the taxes the people paid.But its unfortunate that still 9/11 happened.that has cast a bad spell on the Muslims staying there.It should not be a surprise if the Americans look at the Muslims there with apprehension and suspicion.
vijay
Bangalore, India
Oct 21, 2009 09:39 PM
53
sadiq siddiqui
mysore, India
you to Gayatri Devi.

Without any malice against any one and not even proxying for Gayatri Devi I have to put here my views.
No one should hate others.That is not any solution for any problems.In a democracy where every one has a freedom of speech and expression it should not be forgotten however that with those privileges there comes responsibility and accountability attached with it too.confrontation is a process going against the essence and spirit of democracy and law.If your have a right to protest then your adversary has an equal right to defend when his beliefs are hurt or attacked.Its good to see that you are living with fellow Hindus.All Hindus nor all Muslims are bad after all.But we have to live with every one.If there are Hindu outfits then there are equal number of Muslim outfits as well.Hating a jihadi who in near future will invariably be hated by the law abiding and peace loving Muslims if we have to believe whats happening in Pakistan and Afghanistan spilling over to Iran and some troubled parts of China for real.If you think that some one if is hating an evil jihadi/IM/SIMI/LeT that dosent mean he is hating the entire Muslim community.Thats a wrong interpretation or false propaganda.Dont you think these lumpen elements are creating trouble for the society and bringing a bad name to the Muslim community as well.This is not a Sanghi language anyway.
vijay
Bangalore, India
Oct 21, 2009 09:08 PM
52
Anwar,(you to Lalit)
" Criticizing hatemongers and racists is good." that holds good for a jihadi and a fanatic like you as well.Fanatic because you are providing web links from fanatic websites like two circles.net,comuunalism combat and counter currents which are irresponsible as well and its often seen you have been justifying them.Jihadi because you confirm it by hating and accusing a non Muslim poster as Sanghi/moron/hate monger simply because he made some comments against Jihadis and not necessarily against the Muslims.
It wont be long when law abiding and peace loving Muslims will stand against the jihadis and start hating them in open if we look at the situation in Pakistan and Afghanistan spilling over to Iran and China.Do you think the ugly sectarianism amongst the Muslims is less harsher than racism/casteism.Who really deserve to be hated is not difficult to conclude now.
You are a fake liberal as well.A liar is still better than a fake after all.You may have stayed in the west.That dosent qualify you with anything unless and until you stop defending the jihadi cause.
vijay
Bangalore, India
Oct 21, 2009 08:26 PM
51
Gayatri Devi,

Reading your posts I can only conclude that you are full of hatred for muslims.

"...muslims in india, in europe, and usa are now being
targeted as the insane people..."
Where did you get that from?? I m a muslim from India. I and many more like me live with respect and dignity. Its hate mongers like you that we and society as a whole needs to beware of.

"...you guys are makeing life difficult for yourselves by constantly fighting the majority hindu community..."

It was never my intent to confront you only because you were a hindu. But after reading your outrageous posts i could not stop myself. I myself live in a house with 5 hindus. Its people like you who are making life difficult for everybody by preaching hatred. Well, I reckon you would not understand all this. You only understand narrow, bigoted sanghi language..
sadiq siddiqui
mysore, India
Oct 21, 2009 02:33 AM
50
Gayatri/Lalit,

>> anything good i say about them (U.S.A. and Britain) seems to make you angry.

You are either a congenital liar or an utter fool. You have never praised the good things about the two countries. A few years ago I had listed for you the things I admired about America, but such information seems never to register with you. So don't ask me to list those things again. You are just a charlatan who keeps posting the same nonesense again and again, as if your life depends on keeping a stupid dialogue going. My last post to you today!
Anwaar
Dallas, United States
Oct 21, 2009 01:55 AM
49
faruki

you say that you have lived in both usa and britain.

it is noteable that you seem to have few good memories,
loyalty or anything good to say about them.

anything good i say about them seems to make you angry.
you call it kissing white ass.

to many it would seem that the whites have not been too
good to you,and you bear great anger against them-

being friendly to whites, japs etc is not ass kissing.
it is only so in your sick perverted mind.

my best friends are europeans, and i count on them
at all times.they would be amazed at hearing your sick comments.
gayatri devi
delhi, India
Oct 21, 2009 01:42 AM
48
Gayatri/Lalit,

>> criticism seems to be your bread and butter.

Crticizing hatemongers and racists is good.

>> you brush the evil in muslim societies under the carpet.

You are a liar, and you know it.

>> if you are so against usa, britain...

I have lived in both the U.S.A. and Britain, and I admire both. How come you are such a dope?
Anwaar
Dallas, United States
Oct 20, 2009 11:47 PM
47
faruki

criticism seems to be your bread and butter.

you criticised white racists.

i answered back telling you that islam was full of racism, and that muslims were racists and opressed
both nonmuslims and women. most reasoneable muslims
accept this to be true.

as usual you brush the evil in muslim societies under
the carpet. this does not bother you.

however you have latched on to the white racism of
churchill- in comparison churchill was a very intellgent and well read person. at the end he made up
with nehru. the mountbattens were very friendly to india, and are also so now.

i would anyday prefer the white racists to the muslim racists. so do you,why otherwise would you live in usa,
despite the prejudice and bias that you seem to face.

hordes of muslims try and immigrate to the west,
despite the increasing bias which they face.

if you are so against usa, britain all you need to do is to buy a one way ticket.

i dont face any white racism. danes are friendly towards hindus. india despite its enormous faults is
praised- loads of tourists head towards india in winter.their attitude towards pakistan is the opposite.

a friend of mine in delhi asked pia kjærsgaard at a
meeting in new delhi, whether she was against indians.

we are not against hindus she said.

why should i echo your sentiments against white racists. i can call pia k, and meet her if i want.
not easy but its possible.

i dont think i could meet the pakistani ambassador in
copenhagen.

we have different friends and enemies. that is what mr jinnah said as his reason for breaking up the country.
gayatri devi
delhi, India
Oct 20, 2009 11:23 PM
46
Gayatri/Lalit,

>> this mindset excluded all foreign influence.

Are you trying to justify your boot-licking of avowed racists like Winston Churchill who had said, "I hate Indians. They are a beastly people with a beastly religion.... The Hindus are a foul people", by now to turning it into an anti-Muslim harangue? You have been exposed as an avid supporter of white racism, so you are now back on your anti-Muslim hate-prachar after having declared last month that you had quit it!
Anwaar
Dallas, United States
Oct 20, 2009 10:13 PM
45
siddiqi

muslims in india, in europe, and usa are now being
targeted as the insane people.

however there is no medicine which can be prescibed
for you guys- so the west is giveing you the only
treatment which works-

you guys are makeing life difficult for yourselves by constantly fighting the majority hindu community.
gayatri devi
delhi, India
Oct 20, 2009 08:51 PM
44
Gayatri Devi,

Hats-off to your narrow, sanghi and insane point of views. Somebody has rightly said "please take your medicines regularly"...
sadiq siddiqui
mysore, India
Oct 20, 2009 02:13 PM
43
faruki

"go post in some white racist forum"

thats the typical muslim mindset- this mindset excluded all foreign influence and after 800 ad, the
muslim world went into a permanent decline.

in any case why are you so peeved-?

m.j.akbar has called muslims in india to be a sick limb. you have called them a bunch of rickshaw drivers except for a few. many muslims in india will agree.

mr cowasjee said of pakistani,s- "Ghanni kharab jaat che" and now many pakistani correspondents agree with
this. they are disgusted with their country and people.

they would agree with churchill at least on this point.

your fanatic and bigoted mindset can not accept truth.
that is your problem. your antipathy with the white americans is understandable, because you feel
rejected, mostly due to your own personality. you are always seeking confrontation with people who are better
then you.learn humility- it is badly needed by you in
particular.

it is not me but you who should find a muslim forum-
you are at odds with most of us.

my suggestion to you remains. see a shrink and find out
if there is any hope for you- i have doubts.
gayatri devi
delhi, India
Oct 20, 2009 05:20 AM
42
Gayatri/Lalit,

>> i think that a vast number of indians are at a very low level of development.

Please don't try to justify the hateful words of your hero Churchill. How can you agree with him when he said to Leo Amery, Secretary of State for India, 'I hate Indians. They are a beastly people with a beastly religion.' The Hindus, Churchill observed, are a 'foul people', and the Royal Air Force's surplus bombers could, in his opinion, be suitably deployed 'to destroy them'. Amery privately noted, 'I didn't see much difference between his (Churchill's)outlook and Hitler's.'

Go post in some white racist forum.
Anwaar
Dallas, United States
Oct 20, 2009 03:58 AM
41
faruki

i think that a vast number of indians are at a very low
level of development. however those who get educated are at par with the best.

in aatish taseers book his sister said " i am so glad
that you are not a little black hindu"

His father said hindus were week and cowardly. i am not
amused but neither will i hate these people.i think they are down right stupid in contrast to churchill,
who despite some faults was a great statesman.

most muslims round the world consider nonmuslims to be infidels, kaffirs. the koran refers to jews as pigs. now dont deny this- because i have read this on muslim websites.

you should be used to hate and insults. you are quite
adept in both when you deal with your opponents.

you are quite helpless when criticism comes your way- in impotent rage you start with your well known absurd
phrases of abuse.

get a grip on yourself, and honestly i think you need to see a shrink.it is a pity that you live in a hostile
environment with all kinds of grouses and grudges
against white folks.
gayatri devi
delhi, India
Oct 19, 2009 10:51 PM
40
Gayatri/Lalit,

>> i had never read (Churchill's) comments about muslims or hindus til recently. i consider these comments to be funny and do not feel insulted as you do.

Churchill said to Leo Amery, Secretary of State for India, 'I hate Indians. They are a beastly people with a beastly religion.' The Hindus, Churchill observed, are a 'foul people', and the Royal Air Force's surplus bombers could, in his opinion, be suitably deployed 'to destroy them'. Amery privately noted, 'I didn't see much difference between his (Churchill's)outlook and Hitler's'.

And you consider Churchill's comments to be funny!!! Perhaps because you hate Indians as much as he did!
Anwaar
Dallas, United States
Oct 19, 2009 10:50 PM
39
S.S.Nagaraj,

>> The Christian writer of this article has all the time for writing an article on the discrimination against Dalit children at Sabarmati Ashram

It is a good thing to write on such a thing.

>> why can't she write with the same vehemence against the ill treatment of Dalit Christians in Tamil Nadu,by upper caste Christians?

We will have to scan through all the writing to find out what the author wrote or did not write. That is an irrelevant question. Besides, we do not know what the author actually thinks about the issue of Dalit Christians in Tamilnadu. May be the author views that as a localized/temporary issue or whatever. Why should you rely on this author to write on all the issues? You are free to write on the issue of Dalit Christians in Tamilnadu. What is the problem?

>> Why can't the Christian leaders look inwards ...

That is a good suggestion for anyone.

>> instead of spending time on the social evils in the Hindu soceity?

This is not a good suggestion to overlook what is going wrong around. This is escapism.

>> It is the evil design behind the Christian elements of the country to break the Hindu soceity

How does what the author wrote amount to "breaking the Hindu soceity"? It is not, any more than pointing of issue of dalit christians in tamilnadu amounts to breaking the Christian society. It is a good thing for christian society if such things are exposed, so that the issue can be addressed. One need not be a Christian to write about the issue of dalit christians in Tamilnadu. If the Christian community is interested in correcting mistakes, they would not worry who/how an issue is exposed etc. They will worry about the issue instead.
Kumar
Bangalore, India
Oct 19, 2009 09:29 PM
38
The Christian writer of this article has all the time for writing an article on the discrimination against Dalit children at Sabarmati Ashram.But,why can't she write with the same vehemence against the ill treatment of Dalit Christians in Tamil Nadu,by upper caste Christians?Dalit Christians in TN are forced to sit separately in Churches.A Dalit Christian is not allowed to be buried in a common graveyard of the community.A Dalit is not allowed to become a priest or a pastor.Why can't the Christian leaders look inwards,instead of spending time on the social evils in the Hindu soceity?It is the evil design behind the Christian elements of the country to break the Hindu soceity that i am trying to bring out.What is a Martin Macwan doing in that team?Why can't he concentrate on exposing the sexual harassement of nuns by the priests in churches?A Dalit once he becomes a Christian is no more a Dalit,since caste categorisation is the exclusive social discrimination of the Hindu soceity.Hindu soceity is making sincere efforts to remove all discriminations against the Dalits.Let the Christian elements like this writer or a Martin Macwan concentrate on correcting the social evils in their own community,instead of doing unwarranted interference in the Hindu soceity.
S.S.Nagaraj
Bangalore, India
Oct 19, 2009 05:01 PM
37
The religious Hindu's conscience is clear if he exploits, oppresses, deprives, discriminates and dehumanizes a dalit. That's his religion. A law abiding Hindu can always argue that he would violate laws to obey his religion. Here is a delemma. So SC & SC [Prevention of Atrocities] Act 1989 is violated with impunity. Mulayam Singh as CM of UP had publicly declared that he would not enforce the Act in his state during his tenure. Nobody took note of the anti-Constitutional stand of a CM. It occurs to no Hindu, either in official or private life, that a law as such has been violated.
The Panel's hearing of Balmiki children in Gujarat should have been the breaking news of TV channels. But the popular TV channels, it seems, have avoided precisely for the same reason as a true Hindu. They are not considered enough for a human treatment per se for a dalit.
The Principal of the schools or of such institutions who have forced Balmiki children in Gujarat to work in schools/institutions for cleaning streets, toilets and floors, fields, should be compelled to pay wages out of their pocket at rates prescribed government along with interest at compound rates of interest nationalized Banks have paid on fixed deposits during the period. The rates of interest have changed several times.
Till this is done, the Principals of the Bhangi children in schools should be asked to stay away from their offices. Their second in command should be asked to take over the Principals jobs. And this should be done with threein months, a time, I guess, is reasonable. Failing this the Government should credit the wages in one lump along with interest at compound rate of interest as aforesaid and later realized from their salaries, PF, Gratuity and Pension.
A campaign should be launched for it. And I'll be happy to be a volunteer to do it.
A.K.B iswas
Calcutta, India
Oct 19, 2009 03:54 PM
36
>>VHP and RSS have time and again said that Gujarat is a laboratory for them.

Gujarat is the lab, VHP/RSS are the rats...
Augustus AAA
Pune, India
Oct 19, 2009 02:34 PM
35
faruki

i first read winston churchills war memoirs 5 volumes
about 30 years ago, and was fascinated with his way of thinking and his superb language.

he was awarded the nobel prize of literature for his books about the english speaking people.

he was enamoured with the british empire, and disliked all those who would destroy it. i had never read his comments about muslims or hindus til recently.

i consider these comments to be funny and do not feel
insulted as you do.

you judge people by their view on islam and muslims.

those who say a few kind good words about both are
considered to be secular, liberal and are praised.

those who speak against islam or muslims are condemned
to be empty headed bigots. my nephew who is a asst proff in medicine in usa, said that you were quite mad. the same was the view of others who read your angry, crazy comments.

please note the stream of articles being published
in dawn the pakistani newspaper. most of the writers
condemn the pakistani and the muslim mindset which
has brought their country to ruin.

the fanatics, islamists are from your camp and community not mine. i abhor these people.

there are a small numbar of westernised muslims -mostly women- who have rejected islam. many live in
usa under police protection. most of the west has rejected islam and muslims, after experienceing the
mindset of muslim immigrants over the last many years.

geert wilders is being talked as the next prime minister of holland. pia kjærsgaard is a popular
population in denmark. she is now very much against
muslim immigrants after haveing seem their behaviour
for many years. these are people who have looked
at ground realities, and not been taken in by the empty
rhetoric of pseudo liberals.

none of the three churchill etc have preached forced
conversion of people to their faith. none has talked
of imposeing jezia on muslims. they speak for freedom
of speech and not for laws of blasphemy. they stand by for equality of all inhabitants of their countries,
and not discrimination. the reason they are against islam and most muslims is simply because they are on
the side of modern principles and muslims support the
laws made by your prophet in the 7th century.

you owe a debt of gratitude to usa which allows you
to live and denounce the west without restraint.

nonmuslims liveing in pakistan would not dare to do so.

that is the difference between the way of thinking
of geert wilders and muslims like you.

given a chance you would ban all people who opposed your irrational way of thinking. you sought a ban
against me five times, and it worked.

geert wilders and pia kjærsgaard do not advocate such
limits on freedom of speech. you are fully entitled to
it, and you do, but only by fanatical and stupid abuse
of your opponents.

how can a man so obsessed with his crazy loyalty to his faith and his community be able to think at all.
he can not mr faruki- you are an example of this.
gayatri devi
delhi, India
Oct 19, 2009 03:52 AM
34
Gayatri/Lalit,

>> the whole world admires winston churchill, who was unfortunately biased against hindus, muslims and indians in general.

He is admired as a war leader. Some people like his war history, others have called it the yellowest of yellow journalism. But you quote him exclusively for his attack on Islam, which he wrote when he was 25 years old! What else can one expect from an empty-headed bigot like you?
Anwaar
Dallas, United States
Oct 19, 2009 03:17 AM
33
faruki and others.

faruki is outraged because i think that winston churchill was a great statesman, writer, painter
and more. his sin as per faruki is that he spoke badly about muslims. he spoke badly about hindus,
but it does not bother even a bit to me.

if faruki,s criteria is accepted there will be no great
men in this world to praise besides the prophet and his devout disciples, and the blind,dumb,and mute.

this is obviously as stupid as mr stupid himself.

in fact i take the other view point. the ones who can not find fault with faruki,s faith are mentally
challenged, or hypocrites.

sorry to upset you-
gayatri devi
delhi, India
Oct 19, 2009 03:02 AM
32
faruki

the whole world admires winston churchill, who was unfortunately biased against hindus, muslims and indians in general. this does not mean that his many other good qualities can be forgotten.

the americans leaders and statesmen like george washington, thomas jefferson were also racists. they owned slaves, yet they framed a liberal democratic constitution and made america into a great country.

geert wilders is extremely critical of islam, and has called for the banning of the koran. he compares it to
mein kamf- he has studied the koran, and has experienced the mindset of muslim fanatis, one of
whom killed theo van gogh on a street in amsterdam.

pia kærsgaard is a strong minded politician who is
opposed to the influx of muslim immigrants into denmark. it is based on documented evidence of the
problems which they have caused. all statistics of
muslim immigrants are bad, in employment,education,
crime, status of women. she has a perfect right to defend the interests of her country. most danish politicians support her line, but are less vocal because of political correctness.

there are a huge number of people who admire the above three, and are fearful of the islamic influx. these
include people like angela merkel, sarkosi, berlusconi, and leaders of political parties in austria
norway and others.

it is only in india where any criticism of muslims however legit is considered to be profane.

this criticism, and racist attitude towards muslims will only change,if muslims change their mindset and behaviour dramatically. you can create a storm in this tiny forum, but no one cares for you in the great debates that take place daily .

for nonmuslims your prophet was one who incited his followers to hate them, impose jezia on them, and
made laws of blasphemy and apostasy which exist even
today. these are dismal facts which can not be brushed
under the carpet by you.they are proclaimed by muslim
clerics in your mosques, and appear in muslim websites.

i feel pretty sure that anti islamic attitudes are
present in usa as well,and all over the world.

geert wilders , pia kjærsgaard, and others speak freely about their views. i do not hear or see any
credible arguments from your side. the abuse, threats
from the muslim side show that in fact they are unable
to confront the massive criticism.

your comments are irrational, and you lack any worthwhile arguments. this just shows that your world will not be able to experience the renaissance and reformation of the western world.

this means that you will always lag behind in social, knowledge ,and scietific standards.

sorry if i have upset you.
gayatri devi
delhi, India
Oct 19, 2009 01:45 AM
31
The tragedy is that also in Pakistan - and I am sure in Banglsdesh - Balmikis are being discriminated against although the basic rules of Islam don´t permit this. All the dirty works being done by these poor people, whose only crime is that are longer in India than the other races that came later. The present day discrimination of Dalits in India, Pakistan etc. shows the old way of exploiting the aboriginals economically. Those who talk a lot about Democracy, Human Rights etc. just close their eyes if they profit from discrimantion of others. But this is not new in India or worlwide. In the USA slavery was not revoked after Independance. Even President Jefferson retained his own slaves. There are a lot of principles that are never put into practice...this is a real tragedy for the sub-continent
Dali
Stuttgart, Germany
Oct 19, 2009 01:45 AM
30
The tragedy is that also in Pakistan - and I am sure in Banglsdesh - Balmikis are being discriminated against although the basic rules of Islam don´t permit this. All the dirty works being done by these poor people, whose only crime is that are longer in India than the other races that came later. The present day discrimination of Dalits in India, Pakistan etc. shows the old way of exploiting the aboriginals economically. Those who talk a lot about Democracy, Human Rights etc. just close their eyes if they profit from discrimantion of others. But this is not new in India or worlwide. In the USA slavery was not revoked after Independance. Even President Jefferson retained his own slaves. There are a lot of principles that are never put into practice...this is a real tragedy for the sub-continent
Dali
Stuttgart, Germany
Oct 19, 2009 12:52 AM
29
Gayatri/Lalit,

>> you have declared your hate and antipathy for whites.

Why do you lie so much? I have expressed my distaste for the racists whom you admire, such as Winston Churchill, Pia Kjærsgaard and Geert Wilders. You are the one who keeps expressing your disdain for Indians (except the Hindutwadis), and your admiration for racists and neo-Nazis. You especially love those who have said bad things about Muslims! You have been very rude to the dalit posters in this forum. You are just a charlatan, not a serious discussant.
Anwaar
Dallas, United States
Oct 18, 2009 10:40 PM
28
I wonder why this important debate has degenerated into a personal slanging match. What the report says appears to be a reality. 1000+ children from different parts of a state have no reason to lie, and if they did, it would be apparent. One thing I would like to say about the report is, if the reporter had done a little bit of investigation in the city of Ahmedabad from where many of the kids came, it would have added greater credence. Much of the futile brickbats could have been avoided.

Would it be appropriate for enlightened people such as Gayatri Devi et al spend their energies in going into the realities in the bustees of Balmikis and see for themselves what is going on in their own backyards? If there is even an iota of reality, can they at least say what they can or cannot do something about it? If nothing, can they at least bring some dignity in the forum? Please?
gypsycapt
Los Angeles, United States
Oct 18, 2009 03:12 PM
27
faruki

the blacks in usa have made contributions in sports,
music, but not so much in other areas.

even today indians -about one million in all- are better represented in the public,acadamia and the
corporate domain.

these are facts- no point in denying them

more to the point what are the contributions of indian
muslims,whose cause you espouse.

in your own language-" there are just a few muslims who become doctors and engineers. the rest drive rickshaws" the blacks in usa are doing much better.m.j.akbar calls them a sick limb-

however you have no solutions to this problem, and lots
of blame which you assign to others.

there is an article in dawn today by nadeem pasracha.
in this he states that pakistani,s are their own worst
enemies, but they keep blameing other countries and'
nations. you at any rate are suffering from the same malady.

it is a pity. you are now too old to change- you will
end your life hurling abuses and curses againt your myriad enemies,who are not even aware of your existence.your mindset is typical of many like you.
gayatri devi
delhi, India
Oct 18, 2009 02:02 PM
26
faruki

your language is vulgar and obscene. no decent people
would want your kind in their society.

you have declared your hate and antipathy for whites who have allowed you to settle down in usa.

the whites are in power in usa, and they make the laws.
there are hardly any immigrants in the congress.

usa would be a different country if muslims like you were in power.

the other thing is that whatever i write is true.
one has to give credit to the white races, as well as
the japanese and now the chinese.

all white countries are now fairly well off- there
is no somalia or pakistan in europe.

their culture after many years has evolved to a higher
plane, combineing material prosperity to human
rights for all. most of modern technology, science,
art and literature owes much to americans and europeans.

the same goes for the jews- they have produced some
of the finest people in the world.

africa today in a complete mess- what is more ,africans
are more racist then any one else. uganda, kenya,
zimbamwe have expelled both asians and europeans.
however a perverted mindset stops people from talking
about it.the sins of asians, africans are forgiven,
and you have the audacity to live in the usa, and hate
the white americans who let you in.

try that in turkey, saudi arabia. for all your devotion to islam, you have a different atttude when it
comes to practical matters. i note that you blog
continually in outlookindia,and not in a muslim forum.
are their no secular muslim forums.

you quote from the gita, and bible but seldom from the koran. you are torn between your confidence in
western society and your unwillingness to admit this.

satyameva jayate is from hindu scriptures .

it is morally imperative to speak the truth. however
this would not work for you. not only do you lie in
this forum, but you lie to yourself.

it seems clear that your dislike for whites, hindus,
jews is your defence for your primitive beliefs.
only by calling europeans decadent can pakistani,s and
other muslims justify their own medieval way of liveing.

your inability to admit that there are better societies then muslim societies , that other religions are more humane then islam , will keep you in your
self created bunker.

that in essence is the problems not only of muslims,
but all the other backward communities in india.
they are so busy denying the contributions of the
upper mobile middleclass and blameing the brahmins that
they have no time doing something for themselves.

by doing so they have lost confidence in themselves
and become a pathetic jelly mass ,which whines,
crys and complains and puts the blame for everything
wrong on others.

that is the mindset of losers.the jews in europe were
different. they emerged from the holocaust determined
to survive, and in this process have enriched humanity
in a manner i find most admirable and an example to
all others.

you keep moaning about gujerat- its time you learnt from the jews, but with your petty mindset you never
will.

mian ki daur masjid sai.
gayatri devi
delhi, India
Oct 18, 2009 11:52 AM
25
"The United Nations Human Rights Council (UNHRC) held in Geneva (September 2009) deliberated on the recognition of caste as race. It proposed to ensure that descent and work based discriminations need to be fought against at global level."

http://www.tehelka.c...41009rampuniyani.asp
Anwaar
Dallas, United States
Oct 18, 2009 05:35 AM
24
This is not a problem of only Gujarat but problem of whole country. I accept, when i was studing in the primary school i seen untouchability but i should accept that i never see that type of teacher. But unfortunat that many Dalits accepted this thing.In india, many YOJANA for dalits but question is that why dalit remain a lower class for a sociaty. According to me our reservation method and our politician are responsible for them. Our reservation method is basis on cast not on economicaly poor people. why a poor upper class family have not remain untouchble frome society ? and dalit remain ? sc,st,baxipanch,balmiki this unfortunate for country. Reservation should have on basis of the economicly. Constitution will work that time when any one will go for these to in court. This is a process of our thoughts when i was studing in Gujarat Vidyapith in Ahmedabad, in vidyapith 80% dalit but no one face untouchability because of it's atmosphere. But reality is a reality. we should accept.
DIPAK D. CHUDASAMA
HYDERABAD, India
Oct 18, 2009 05:02 AM
23
Gayatri/Lalit,

>> everything good about usa was the result of the early white settlers.

Whites, whites, whites! You make this forum obscene. Why can't you do your ass-kissing in private? The contributions of the Blacks, the Native Americans and the Chinese would mean nothing to you. You are such an unabashed racist.
Anwaar
Dallas, United States
Oct 18, 2009 03:30 AM
22
faruki

you live in a land of immigrants, of which the major part are whites who have built the country from the
ground up. everything good about usa was the result of the early white settlers, with their puritan christian
faith- their ideas of liberty, hard work, and just laws. the american constitution was framed by white americans. the muslims would not ever have made such a constitution- and it is the white americans in power
who protect the freedom you are the beneficiary off.

it is normal that you pay your taxes, no favour to any one. however it is apparent that you have little sympathy for your white american fellow citizens.
even being civil to them, and thankful is some thing
which goes against your very nature.

i believe that you dislike white people as you dislike sanghies, antimuslim europeans, and yet you want to build plural societies with them ,when it is apparent that they want societies of the kind they have had earlier.

plural societies failed in india, and it was jinnah and indian muslims who were the ones to leave.
kashmiri muslims want to leave. have you lectured them
for their apparent fanaticism and bigotry. ofcource
not.

you have great expectations in terms of tolerance from
nonmuslims and none from muslims. you are loud mouthed
about any misbehaviour towards muslims in europe, and completely quiet about the treatment of unskilled
muslim labour in arab countries.

you harangue us about the caste system and are blind
to the opressive lives of muslim women.

in view of all of this,who would want to build a plural society with your kind. we are much better off
on our own. this is not bigotry, but just common sense
which you lack so much.

remember that europe belongs to europeans, just as much
as iran belongs to muslim iranians. both of them have
the right to decide what kind of society they want-
they have the right to say no to foreigners and immigrants. most muslim countries do not want foreign visitors-

your liberal postureing is absolutely stupid,and a fraud.
gayatri devi
delhi, India
Oct 18, 2009 03:26 AM
21
faruki

you live in a land of immigrants, of which the major part are whites who have built the country from the
ground up. everything good about usa was the result of the early white settlers, with their puritan christian
faith- their ideas of liberty, hard work, and just laws. the american constitution was framed by white americans. the muslims would not ever have made such a constitution- and it is the white americans in power
who protect the freedom you are the beneficiary off.

it is normal that you pay your taxes, no favour to any one. however it is apparent that you have little sympathy for your white american fellow citizens.
even being civil to them, and thankful is some thing
which goes against your very nature.

i believe that you dislike white people as you dislike sanghies, antimuslim europeans, and yet you want to build plural societies with them ,when it is apparent that they want societies of the kind they have had earlier.

plural societies failed in india, and it was jinnah and indian muslims who were the ones to leave.
kashmiri muslims want to leave. have you lectured them
for their apparent fanaticism and bigotry. ofcource
not.

you have great expectations in terms of tolerance from
nonmuslims and none from muslims. you are loud mouthed
about any misbehaviour towards muslims in europe, and completely quiet about the treatment of unskilled
muslim labour in arab countries.

you harangue us about the caste system and are blind
to the opressive lives of muslim women.

in view of all of this,who would want to build a plural society with your kind. we are much better off
on our own. this is not bigotry, but just common sense
which you lack so much.

remember that europe belongs to europeans, just as much
as iran belongs to muslim iranians. both of them have
the right to decide what kind of society they want-
they have the right to say no to foreigners and immigrants. most muslim countries do not want foreign visitors-

your liberal postureing is absolutely stupid,and a fraud.
gayatri devi
delhi, India
Oct 18, 2009 03:02 AM
20
Gayatri/Lalit,

>> you should be decent enough to say thanks to them (Americans). or does this constitute kissing white ass.

You call Indians ignorant and you sing the praises of white racists such as Winston Churchill, Pia Kjærsgaard and Geert Wilders. That's what makes you a despicable ass-kisser. I live in a land of immigrants, pay my taxes and applaud everything that is good about America. I do not however sing the praises of Russ Limbaugh, George Bush or George Wallace. Nor do I look down upon Indians.
Anwaar
Dallas, United States
Oct 18, 2009 01:20 AM
19
joshipura

i know the cleaning women in delhi,in my sisters home.
i treat them as friends-

i once say two girls in the hall, and i thought that they were family friends. i gave one a hug.

they were daughters of vimla who cleans my room.

some times i am disgusted by the lies in the media.
gayatri devi
delhi, India
Oct 18, 2009 01:13 AM
18
chakraborty

thanks-i am drinking a glass of red wine.

by the way who are you in reality-

which religion, profession ,etc.

just curious.
gayatri devi
delhi, India
Oct 18, 2009 01:06 AM
17
faruki

you live in the usa, protected by the police, and
given due consideration by white americans, or are you being looked after my fellow pakistani muslims.

in the case it is the former you should be decent enough to say thanks to them.

or does this constitute kissing white ass.

you are a perverted person, and its a shame that usa
has such immigrants like you.
gayatri devi
delhi, India
Oct 18, 2009 12:52 AM
16
Gayatri/Lalit,

>> you are suffering from a king sized inferiority complex.

I have heard of king-sized egos, but never of a king-sized inferiority complex! A slavish inferiority complex is the hallmark of white-ass-kissers like yourself.
Anwaar
Dallas, United States
Oct 18, 2009 12:41 AM
15
faruki

i dont need to kiss white ass- you are suffering from a king sized inferiority complex, which makes you feel
that any interaction with whites needs to be done by
being servile. it shows your ghetto mentality, in common with many other muslims.

most ass kissing is done by your fellow muslims who
arrive in europe, to be looked after by europeans.
the worst is that they do not even say thanks. is that
your weird culture- you should be ashamed of yourself.

most indians are in a very low level of development-
that is a fact, but you are not honest or courageous
to admit this. perhaps because you are like them only.

you calling yourself a indian is a joke. your main interest is in writeing about gujerat killings, and maligneing modi. you are quiet about the daily killings in pakistan- 150 killed in 7 days.

you are a fraud when you refuse to accept the real cause of the gujerat killings ie burning of the pilgrim
train. this was similar to the earlier attack on the wtc on nine elleven which has resulted in war and destruction of iraq and afghanistan.

previously you dismissed my comments on the situation
in denmark . now you realise that denmark is getting to be racist, and for this you can thank fellow muslims
for burning our embassies abroad.

people like you are blind to your own faults- and magnify the faults of others.

now please note that geert wilders, is invited by the
house of lords to exhibit his film fitna- he is in
london now, and hordes of fanatic muslims gather to demand his expulsion . imagine the cheek, for trying
to impose their will on the britts , when they are just unwelcome immigrants themselves-

i note some angry dalits in this forum, along with some angry muslims. this is an opportunity to build a plural, secular and liberal society in some part of india. it will be a blessing for you, unless you can
not live without hate filled high caste hindus.

it is time to accept reality. you have an opportunity to make one state say uttar pradesh into a dalit,muslim
paradise, by expelling all the unwanted others.
gayatri devi
delhi, India
Oct 18, 2009 12:24 AM
14
Lalitji

Pl. take your medicines regularly.
JayKay Chraborty
Kolkatta, India
Oct 17, 2009 11:40 PM
13
Gayatri/Lalit,

>> the constitution is appropriate for a country with educated, rational people...." 80 percent of indians are like animals" this is unfortunately true.

So this is your opinion of Indians! Coming from a white-ass-kisser like you, I am not surprised. Keep kissing the feet of your white racist idols Winston Churchill, Pia Kjærsgaard and Geert Wilders, and leave us Indians alone.
Anwaar
Dallas, United States
Oct 17, 2009 04:22 PM
12
to friend or foe.

the noble people who framed indias,s constitution did
not have any idea of the reality of the indian people-

the constitution is appropriate for a country with
educated,rational people. it is not suitable for a
country with warring tribes, with each fighting for its
pound of flesh.

it has given a handle to the backward communities of
india, eg dalits, tribals, obc,s, muslims to keep up
a dirge of complaints against a tiny minority of indians- hindus, sikhs, parsis, christians and just a handful of muslims- who have overcome enormous difficulties and been recoganised as a elite class in
the world. they represent india shineing.the others
are india,s darkness.

people like narayanamuty, nandn nilekani, sunil bharati
mittal, dhirubhai ambani, the tata,s , and premjees,
have brought some peosperity and honour to india.

what exactly have the dalits,tribals and muslims done
for india. india would sink into total misery if the
bright people of india were to leave tomorrow,leaveing
behind the hordes of uneducated, pitifully ignorant
and bigoted indians.

a friend of mine who has worked tirelessly for the poor in india for a long time had this to say in despair.

" 80 percent of indians are like animals" this is unfortunately true. however these people despite the power given by a liberal constitution have been unable
to progress. only a communist govt like china,s could have gotten them out of their misery, by enforceing birth control, and creating the kinds of jobs they could handle. poor , deprived poor can not make
a flying start to become ceo,s of high tech companies.
you cant run before you can walk.

this is reality- the high pitched voices of the deprived poor are a cry of despair, and helplessness.

if dalits want to progress it will have to be done step by step,brick by brick. like every one else in
human history.

unfortunately the leading lights of the poor masses
are more willing to destroy what the others have built,
rather then do anything on their own.
gayatri devi
delhi, India
Oct 17, 2009 01:05 PM
11
VHP and RSS have time and again said that Gujarat is a laboratory for them. Ppl are just sleeping. It is their agenda. They are testing it in Gujarat and they are successful. They would try to test all the issues on their agenda in the "Lab" before rolling it all over the India. So far, they have been successful in at least two issues showing muslims and Christians their place and implementing Manu's Varna system. Gujarat and Maharastra has not progressed socially since the independence may be even going back to the medieval times.
JayKay Chraborty
Kolkatta, India
Oct 17, 2009 12:50 PM
10
Happy Diwali to all!
Anwaar
Dallas, United States
Oct 17, 2009 12:45 PM
9
> "Children of safai karmacharis in Gujarat are forced by teachers to clean toilets and mop floors in school. They are abused and beaten if they refuse to do the menial tasks. Treated as untouchables and kept at arm’s length by upper caste students. In some areas, they are not even allowed to drink from a common source of water. Reports of their notebooks never being corrected since teachers don’t like to handle their books.

If this is the situation in Gandhi's Gujarat, it is a matter of shame. A high-level investigation is called for.
Anwaar
Dallas, United States
Oct 17, 2009 11:27 AM
8
SSN:>>:"The upper caste Christians will never accept a Dalit as a pastor or priest"

right, the oppressiveness, on both Bs and Ds, in hinduism has been mainly by those who call themselves as OBCs these days. Post-mughal, the Ds are also mostly out-caste Bs only. Among converts also, the OBCs try only to suppress the Bs and Ds, creating casteism inside churches also.

In pre-indep days, most converts were genuinely philo-minded Bs attracted spititually to Jesus, by his sermon on the mount, krishTopanishad. They respected hinduism also equally, lots of my chr friends, classmates, professors, of that type. Jesuit colleges only promoted comparative studies of all religions, for maximization of morality in human lives.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Oct 17, 2009 11:15 AM
7
Mr. S.S.Nagaraj,

When will you come out of denial mode? Every time an incident like this is exposed you blame it on christian missionaries. If u read the article closely you will realize that panel before which the hearing was held comprised mostly of hindus. Its not about hinduism or christianity or any other religion. The fact remains that caste based discrimination is still rife in India. We need to make collective effort to eradicate it and denial surely doesnt help. Please stop looking at things for a missionary-phobic point of view and broaden your perspective.

Regards,
Sadiq Siddiqui.
sadiq siddiqui
mysore, India
Oct 17, 2009 10:53 AM
6
Did anyone say untouchability is not practised anymore?Do I hear that caste discrimination is vanishing from India?That the balmiki children are being subjected to such dehumanising treatment is a slap in the democracy.what is extremely worrisome is the fact that teachers are becoming instruments in perpetrating caste based discrimination.their deplorable conduct will only deepen caste divisons.in social and economic insitutions of our counttry caste discrimination surfaces in everyday life.laws designed to curb such discriminatory practises are not put to use and conviction rate under the prevwention of atrocities against scheduled caste act is abysmally low.is this the kind of society we espose to create in the future.a
sunil kumar
delhi, India
Oct 17, 2009 10:53 AM
5
Did anyone say untouchability is not practised anymore?Do I hear that caste discrimination is vanishing from India?That the balmiki children are being subjected to such dehumanising treatment is a slap in the democracy.what is extremely worrisome is the fact that teachers are becoming instruments in perpetrating caste based discrimination.their deplorable conduct will only deepen caste divisons.in social and economic insitutions of our counttry caste discrimination surfaces in everyday life.laws designed to curb such discriminatory practises are not put to use and conviction rate under the prevwention of atrocities against scheduled caste act is abysmally low.is this the kind of society we espose to create in the future.a
sunil kumar
delhi, India
Oct 17, 2009 09:16 AM
4
India's Dalits are the supreme victims of human civilization. For centuries they have endured spiritual, physical, social, economic, cultural and political dehumanization. There are few days in India when the newspapers do not report atrocities against the Dalits.

However, Dalit oppression and dehumanization is only a sympton of a larger problem : Brahmanism and the caste system.
B Prabhu
Mangalore, India
Oct 17, 2009 08:45 AM
3
Fanatical sections of the Christians,like this author are going allout to poison the Dalits against the Hindu community,by writing imaginary situations like this.They will never criticise the Christian community,which treats the Dalit sections in still worse ways.In Tamil Nadu,Dalit Christians have to sit in a separate section in the Church during prayers.A Dalit's body is not allowed to be buried in the common graveyard.The upper caste Christians will never accept a Dalit as a pastor or priest.I request Mr Vinod Mehta to see through the evil designs of these people who are spending time in breaking in the Hindu soceity,while covering up the nasty treatment of Dalits in their own the Christian community.
S.S.Nagaraj
Bangalore, India
Oct 17, 2009 08:16 AM
2
Mr JOSHIPURA,
>> This is absolutely made up report. I studied in Gujarat from 1st standard to M.Sc. and I know many many people who studied in many parts of Gujarat. Nobody but nobody has ever mentioned this kind of behaviour in any school.

How many Dalit, or I should say Gandhi's Harijan, students were there in your school? Who cleaned the toilets?
Brahmanical system is designed in such a way that upper castes never come in contact with the untouchables. The scripture says that even shadow of Sudras is sin. That's why most upper castes even deny the untouchable caste's existence.
Rajesh
Phoenix, United States
Oct 17, 2009 04:31 AM
1
This is absolutely made up report. I studied in Gujarat from 1st standard to M.Sc. and I know many many people who studied in many parts of Gujarat. Nobody but nobody has ever mentioned this kind of behaviour in any school. if it was not there 40 years ago, I sincerely doubt that this would be the case right now. Gujarat never had a chief minister from a backward class and still such thing did not happen and now that we have a chief minister from backward class and to say that such thing is happening is pure humbug.
P.B. Joshipura
Suffolk, Virginia, United States
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