WEB Magazine Sections Interactive Features Regulars Resources RSS
Business Magazine | Sep 28, 2009
Kedar Bhat
Time out: IIM-A students relax
the survey
Theory And Practice
In a bad economic year, what is an MBA worth? It still depends where the degree is from. The Outlook-MDRA lowdown on the country's best B-schools
Also In This Story   
The Survey
The top schools: Government and Private
the survey
The North and the West see the best bunched up
the survey
Selection, Personality Development & Industry Interface, Infrastructure & Facilities, Academic Excellence, Placements
the survey
the survey
For the 2009 Outlook-MDRA Survey
Business education has never been so much in the spotlight as over the past year. Apart from digesting the slowdown, B-schools are in sharp focus: are they training managers in tune with today’s realities that require ethical men and women to tap into the “real India”? Which is where Outlook’s rigorous ranking—conducted with research agency MDRA—of top B-schools comes in, packed with fresh insights, features and analyses. As always, choose wisely.

 

Top 10 Government B-Schools
Rank Name of Institute City Score (1,000)
1 IIM-A Ahmedabad 976.25
2 IIM-B Bangalore 960.56
3 IIM-C Calcutta 947.18
4 IIM-L Lucknow 936.03
5 IIM-I Indore 921.19
6 IIM-K Kozhikode 911.08
7 MDI Gurgaon 902.20
8 FMS New Delhi 898.83
9 Jamnalal Bajaj Institute Mumbai 877.06
10 IIFT New Delhi 853.02
Top 10 Private B-Schools
Rank Name of Institute City Score (1,000)
1 XLRI Jamshedpur 936.23
2 S.P. Jain Institute Mumbai 930.44
3 MICA Ahmedabad 855.73
4 Symbiosis Institute Pune 855.40
5 IMT Ghaziabad 849.71
6 Narsee Monjee Mumbai 846.88
7 ICFAI Business School Hyderabad 845.28
8 XIM Bhubaneswar 819.59
9 Welingkar Institute Mumbai 796.00
10 IMI New Delhi 794.46

Top B-Schools In Metros

Mumbai
1 S.P. Jain Institute
2 Jamnalal Bajaj
3 NMIMS
4 SJ Mehta, IIT-B
5 Welingkar

New Delhi (NCR)
1 MDI-Gurgaon
2 FMS
3 IIFT
4 IMT-Ghaziabad
5 DMS, IIT-D

Chennai
1 Loyola
2 IFMR
3 DMS, Anna Univ

Bangalore
1 IIM-B
2 IBMT
3 IFIM Bangalore

Calcutta
1 IIM-C
2 IISWBM

Hyderabad
1 ICFAI Business School
2 MANAGE
3 IPE
4 DBM, Osmania Univ
Also In This Story   
The Survey
The top schools: Government and Private
the survey
The North and the West see the best bunched up
the survey
Selection, Personality Development & Industry Interface, Infrastructure & Facilities, Academic Excellence, Placements
the survey
the survey
For the 2009 Outlook-MDRA Survey
Filed In Topics: Outlook Business Schools Specials
More In: Business
 
Daily MailPublished
COLLAPSE COMMENTS :
HAVE YOUR SAY
Oct 18, 2009 05:06 PM
19
My comment is on Theory and Practice (the B school survey). I think that the reason for doing a B school survey is to make the prospective students aware of the market value of B schools so that they can make a sound judgement. But the way B school ranking has been done by Outlook reflects a lot of anomalies. For example, many B schools placed above IRMA were not able to offer 100 % placements to their students where IRMA had 100 % placements (average was around 4.7 lakhs- a respected figure in the hard days of recession). Secondly recruiters truly know what is the level of B schools and it reflected when pass outs form such B schools are two-three years old in job market. Ranking of a B school should be done on value addition to a student in that B school.
It may be that the magazine may gain some readers in near future but it will lose those readers who will feel cheated after following Outlook's rankings or who are aware of true value of B schools. Secondly what Outlook will project of itself by presenting such grossly wrong rankings.
Deepak Agarwal
Delhi, India
Sep 24, 2009 11:10 AM
18
MCI is being run by a Coterie of Corrupt Doctors with unbriddled powers under the garb of autonomy offered by statutory nature of MCI.

Due to their vise like grip over Medical Education & Medical Practice in the country these Seasoned & Greedy Doctors have created a Milch Cow-Capitation Fee Collecting Private Medical College Lobby (run by corrupt politicians) and an ARTIFICIAL DEMAND for MBBS/MD/MS degrees.

National Board of Examinations, New Delhi is a Central Govt. Body offering DNB degrees in Specialty & Super Specialty courses with effective & innovative utilization of existing infrastructre & Faculty of both private and public hospitals.

But it is the MCI which regulates the Medical Practice and Teaching appointments in the Medical Colleges. It doesn't want to recognize the NBE qualification i.e.DNB, so that the demand for MD/MS is maintained and the Capitation market can thrive.

MCI has created a CREATED A DEMAND for these MBBS/MS/MD courses (and hence, the astronomical capitation fee ranging from 40 lacs to 2 crores).

This attitude of MCI can only be corrected with suitable amendments to MCI act by Parliament or Hon'ble Supreme Court's Intervention (by a suo moto case) and clipping the wings of MCI President & Inspectors, and making them accountable to their corrupt practices.

More seats in government colleges means, Less or No capitation fee and Better Quality of Medical Education & Better Doctors.
Partha persistent spammer
chennai, India
Sep 23, 2009 05:52 PM
17
Manish

You are proving supercilious.
sandilya
Chennai, India
Sep 23, 2009 05:25 PM
16
Sadndlya,

>Management is about managing every thing and any thing.

You mean including managing a prolapsed vertebral disc?

I thaught the cover story was all about business management schools. Hearing you guys writing capter & verse about medical education , I am the joker who got cofused. Yes , sorry , that was not really smart of me.
MANISH BANERJEE
KOLKATA, India
Sep 23, 2009 05:25 PM
15
SANDILYA

"The day is not far off when the present easily available and relatively cheap medical care will be history."

This one view stands out oddly from all your other views on the 'declining popularity' of medicine. And I agree this will happen if we continue to have androphobic and corrupt governments that are uninterested in health and education.
Partha persistent spammer
chennai, India
Sep 23, 2009 05:13 PM
14
One classic example of pilots earning 200000 per month in India and $50000 in the USA.

If we look at it in terms of PER CAPITA INCOME per annum, then an American pilot is earning an equivalent of ONE and HALF per capita income in America.

Whereas an Indian pilot is earns ONE HUNDRED times the PER CAPITA INCOME in India!

To put it in perspective, an American pilot must earn $3500000 per annum ( one hundred times his country's per capita ), to get the EQUIVALENT of what his Indian counterpart makes in terms of His country!

The same situation is true for MBAs too. They get paid western incomes in a poor, poverty and illiteracy stricken country like ours!

Why this craze to indulge and appease the powerful women groups which routinely even publish crape 'research' articles in androphobic media, in order to get 'reservations' for itself, when already men are underdogs in the employment figures around the world?

The government is abdicating its responsibility to reduce its dependence on pilots and doctors who can easily hold a country to ransom, merely because it has NOT trained enough professionals.

Will the government continue this attitude of keeping wool pulled over its eyes?
Partha persistent spammer
chennai, India
Sep 23, 2009 04:25 PM
13
Sandilya,

Most of your opinions are influenced by the fact that you are a surgeon yourself.
Hence, I find it 'irritating' having to debate your points. However, I will point out a few obvious errors of logic.

GPs are the HIGHEST paid in the UK. What does 100000 pounds per annum mean for them? Just THRICE their average annual income of a Brit! And an average surgeon earns less than that. And INSPITE of this, Indian doctors are still recruited there.

Whereas, an AVERAGE radiologist/anaesthetist/ gynec in India gets about FIFTY times the average yearly income for the country! And there is resistance here to more doctors!

Why should the country accept that most doctors are holy cows, and should earn AT LEAST FIFTY times the average national income every month?

2. As for your views on poor surgical experiences, it has more to do with the QUALITY of education. As I pointed out, this is a direct result of the MCI Not allowing medical education in GOVT. colleges, since they get money in the private sector, while the govt. set up is not interested.

3. There is a general reluctance by doctors to allow encouragement of proper medical education to an unnaturally high fear of competition. This is what lead the western countries to their current situation of recruiting doctors from India ( where there is already a shortage ), even if they are 'rich' countries.

Since there is going to be a shortfall of doctors in growing India as well as the western world, and since privately trained doctors will leave India, India is going to face an even severe shortage of QUALITY doctors unless medical education recieves central funding and encouragement.
Partha persistent spammer
chennai, India
Sep 23, 2009 01:43 PM
12
>> Being a surgeon will no doubt influence the way you think about the effects of poor health care on society..

Partha

You cannot compare the employment situation in USA and UK to India. There a doctor is rarely unemployed. Even a GP gets 110K pounds in UK to put doctors among the highest earning groups and the law protects any under employment and under payment as it is prevalent in India.

And there the govt health policies create constant demand for doctors. But in contrast in India all the central health services put together do not have more than 10,000 doctors, which is about one year pass outs from all the colleges in South. If this is so, what will you do with the produce year after year?

What I said I spoke out of my experience with the new comers. There are many doctors who cannot clinically diagnose even an abscess!!The training now a days is very lax and unsupervised.

I often come across these days Surgeons who can’t do surgery and gynaecologists who can’t do a caesarean. What do they do for a living? Well, I leave it to your imagination. They are the biggest danger to our society and the reputation of profession.

In medicine incompetence is more dangerous than no competence. A candidate needs basic intellectual endowment to imbibe the core requirements of medical education. A large no of colleges will fail to get the right inputs and surely dilute the standards. That’s my point. We have to go gradually only in tandem with economic growth. Hurried measures are self defeating.
sandilya
Chennai, India
Sep 23, 2009 11:32 AM
11
Remarkably, Cuba leads the world in the patients per doctor ratio. India is currently one of the worst, inspite of the fact that it is the main supplier of doctors for advanced countries.

Here’s the complete list: LIKE MOST PARAMETERS, INDIA IS DOING WORSE THAN EVEN QATAR!

Cuba 170 Belarus 220 Belgium 220 Greece 230 Russia 230 Georgia 240
Italy 240 Turkmenistan 240 Ukraine 240 Lithuania 250 Uruguay 270 Bulgaria 280 Iceland 280 Kazakhstan 280 Switzerland 280 Portugal 290
France 300 Germany 300 Hungary 300 South Korea 300 Spain 300
Denmark 310 Sweden 310 Finland 320 Netherlands 320 Norway 320
Argentina 330 Latvia 330 Ireland 360 Uzbekistan 360 Mongolia 380
United States 390 Australia 400 Kirgizstan 400 Poland 400 New Zealand 420 Great Britain 440 Qatar 450 Canada 470 Jordan 490 Tajikistan 490
Japan 500 Mexico 500 Venezuela 500 Romania 550
Bahrain 900 Brazil 900 Chile 900 Paraguay 900 China 950
Guatemala 1.100 Jamaica 1.200 South Africa 1.300 Malaysia 1.400
Pakistan 1.400 Iraq 1.500 India 1.700 Laos 1.700 Honduras 1.800
Philippines 1.800 Sri Lanka 1.800 Egypt 1.900 Vietnam 1.900 Morocco 2.000
Partha persistent spammer
chennai, India
Sep 23, 2009 11:08 AM
10
Sandilya,

Being a surgeon will no doubt influence the way you think about the effects of poor health care on society.

The Americans and Brits too, had their share of doctors who protested against training more doctors under various pretexts. Actually, this represents a huge sense of insecurity - as endemic for doctors, as their legendary inability to take care of their own health! :)

You also forget that an MBBS costs some 40 lakhs - just as a PG seat can cost much more!

For the past quarter-century, the American Medical Association and other industry groups have predicted a glut of doctors and worked to limit the number of new physicians. In 1994, the Journal of the American Medical Association predicted a surplus of 165,000 doctors by 2000.

"IT DINT HAPPEN," says Harvard University medical professor David Blumenthal, author of a New England Journal of Medicinearticle on the doctor supply. "Physicians aren't driving taxis."

The nation now has about 800,000 active physicians, up from 500,000 20 years ago. Yet, they've been kept busy by a growing population and new procedures ranging from heart stents to liposuction.

But unless more medical students begin training soon, the supply of physicians will begin to shrink in about 10 years when doctors from the baby boom generation retire in large numbers.

AND THESE DOCTORS ARE GOING TO COME FROM THE PRIVATELY EDUCATED DOCTORS FROM INDIA.
Partha persistent spammer
chennai, India
Sep 23, 2009 10:33 AM
9
Why you guys confuse Management Education with Medical Education? They are not same if you don't know.
MANISH BANERJEE

Quite smart you are.

Gee I didn't know the difference, Forgive me; I thought they teach medicine in IIMs, don't they?

Manish quite surprised about your comment. I thought you are really smart. you disappoint me.

Management is about managing every thing and any thing. As a surgeon I attended a sponsored course of 15 days in IIMB. What's your inference?
sandilya
Chennai, India
Sep 23, 2009 10:16 AM
8
Partha

.>> The demand of 1.5 crores for a three year education is PROOF of the lack of supply. The market is a great place to understand the demand.

Oh, come on, I have already explained why the demand is so, and it is just an isolated case for few branches like Radiology, cardiology and orthopaedics. The same cannot be applicable to the entire profession. This affair is due to the fact that the state had only three seats each in MD or DM in these branches once upon a time. But now the situation is different. The back door entry through Dip.N.B ensures plenty of them.

I am not denying some of those points you have raised except that any increase of medical colleges spells death knell to the quality of medical profession. You know well in times of demand, UK and USA allowed immigration of overseas doctors rather than open more medical colleges. Even today the quality of medical care in these countries remains good .

I have elaborated earlier how the profession is gradually ceasing to attract the best brains. And yesterdays glorious law profession will be tomorrows medicine –a saga of fall from heights and poverty in the midst of plenty- Quantity but no quality. To get a good competent doctor will be a task in future.

Remember, if India has core competence for medical tourism its bcz earlier some best brains chose to join medicine to make it what it is today and that reputation will wane when the employment opportunities decline bcz of glut, which dissuades the best to join the profession .

I do not think people will flock to IIMs the way they flock now once they cease to offer the kind of salaries they are able to get their alumni now.

I am in full agreement with you that Govt has messed up health care and MCI is corrupt. Its bcz of one guy there in MCI who is ruling the roost. MCI surely needs more teeth and democracy in electing the members.

State hospitals have ceased to be a source of hope for even the poor. It’s all bcz of wrong policies pursued for long. You rarely get to see the kind of stalwarts TN Govt hospitals had earlier. Lack of autonomy, poor compensation and career prospects and politics of caste groups have all killed the motivation among the bright who chose to migrate –private hospitals or abroad-than keep complaining. This is a big subject by itself and space does not permit me to keep writing elaborately.
sandilya
Chennai, India
Sep 23, 2009 08:31 AM
7
Sandilya,

1. The demand of 1.5 crores for a three year education is PROOF of the lack of supply. The market is a great place to understand the demand.

2. the government is doing poorly by abdicating the responsibility of better education in its own medical colleges. Remember, that while private medical colleges with poor infrastructure are getting far more seats allocated, the corrupt MCI is CREATING AN ARTIFICIAL DEMAND, by refusing permission to the government colleges. Thus, it gets more money for the seats it permits in the private sector.

3. India is a rising economy and there is a huge demand for doctors in the future. No wonder that already parents are shelling upto 40 lakhs for an Undergraduation! Besides, there is a huge shortfall predicted in the western countries ( where all these privately educated doctors dream of going to )

And what is wrong with aiming for a western ratio of 1 : 400, as in the UK? Even if it means a female bias to achieve this? Remember : Already, India has as many millionarires as Europe! Should medical treatment and education be expensive? Who benefits from this? The losers, of course, are the general public.

And finally, Manish ,

Medical education is JUST ONE of the sectors that the government of India has abdicated responsibility for in the past decade. But health care is a parameter for the well being of any population.
Partha persistent spammer
chennai, India
Sep 22, 2009 07:44 PM
6
Partha/Sandilya ,

Why you guys confuse Management Education with Medical Education? They are not same if you don't know.
MANISH BANERJEE
KOLKATA, India
Sep 22, 2009 07:10 PM
5
>> Historically, strikes by medical students in the 70's and 80's against increasing medical seats, coupled with the government lifting the ban on Indian doctors working abroad, guaranteed the huge shortfall in qualified medical personnel.

Partha

You are mostly right except in the case of the above statement. There is no dearth of doctors in India . In fact there is a glut in the market.
Are you aware there is lots of underemployment among doctors?

There are MBBS doctors who work for a meagre 15k or even less per month. A PG doctor in plastic surgery( MBBS+ MS+ MCh)i.e., a guy with 12 years of university affiliated academic studying , I was told, was offered just 35K in SRMC. It is purely a case of supply and demand.

Just a couple of decades ago radiology was the last choice among clinical PG degrees and orthopaedics was accepted by those who could not make it to General surgery. But with life style changes the disease trends have changed and so is the demand for particular specialities. It should not be seen as a general demand.

Trauma brought Ortho surgeons to the fore front . And diagnostic CT scan and ultra sound study have become bedrock of practice to render radiology one of the most important branches of medicine. A guy can become independent practitioner and start his own diagnostic centre if he has radiology MD. Thats why the demand for MD radio diagnosis. But that demand will wane soon with mushrooming of such centres. Already we no longer hear absurdly high salaries for radiologists which was the norm till recently. Of course they are still in demand.

Medicine as a profession has attracted the best brains till recently but no longer so. Why? Because earning in a profession like medicine is tedious and involves lots of hard work and sacrifices. If one puts that much effort in any other profession he can accomplish much more.

Medicine is so exacting even the best brains become average doctors in medical profession and coupled to that one has to put in 13-15 academic years (after plus two) and go through the fire of scores of exams to become a specialist.

Even after that one needs foreign training to stand in good stead as a respectable consultant. If one considers all this doctors are under compensated.

Any wonder, in the West, medicine is not preferred by the ordinary unless they have natural aptitude.

Consider that profession in the decline if the children choose a profession other than their fathers’. And children of many doctors are no longer opting medicine!!!Exceptions are only those with nursing homes.

In India the earlier generation of doctors brought some name and fame to the profession and the glamour has attracted best brains to make India self sufficient.

But unfortunately the trend is changing with all round dilution of standards and mushrooming of medical colleges. You may award MBBS but that academic endowment to become a good doctor is not available in every individual who joins medical college. That’s why we have plenty of substandard and half baked doctors but competent ones are in short supply now.

The day is not far off when the present easily available and relatively cheap medical care will be history.
sandilya
Chennai, India
Sep 22, 2009 04:50 PM
4
Compare the cost of an MBA with a PG medical degree!

Rs.1.5 crores! - for a PG seat in Radiology! That is 1.5 followed by seven zeroes!
Rs.1.3 crores! - for a PG seat in Orthopaedics!

Imagine! Can YOU pay Rs. 20000 Every single Day for FULL three years to get a post graduate degree? Are you out of your mind?
And - Is it REALLY worth the price? This is After your already spending princely sums of money and valuable time, for MBBS!

Where did things go so horribly wrong, that medical education should be expensive, and medicine so out-of-reach for the common man? And who are the villains, ruthlessly gaining from this?

WHY do we Indians still have to manage with a meagre doctor-population ratio of 1:1800, while it is 1 : 400 in the UK and 1 : 300 in Germany? Why do we not even THINK of training more medical professionals for example, the event that a swine flu or a mass casualty strikes? And a DEVELOPING India in 2025, is going to require vastly more doctors - because Indian doctors will also be attracted by the massive shortage that is predicted in the developed countries ( underline )!

Historically, strikes by medical students in the 70's and 80's against increasing medical seats, coupled with the government lifting the ban on Indian doctors working abroad, guaranteed the huge shortfall in qualified medical personnel.

This acute shortage lead, in the 90's, to a huge premium for seats in the available 'private' medical colleges. This coincided with allegations of huge sums of corruption money to the Medical Council of India ( MCI ), responsible for granting recognition to private colleges. 1 crore for one M.S. ( Radiology ) course was the talk on the street.

Look at private medical colleges - Most of them (unethically) manipulate figures of infrastructure and patients in order to gain points for recognition.

There is a huge gender bias here, as everywhere else. The number of female medical graduates today far exceeds the fertile imagination of any androphobic of 10 years ago! For almost 2 out of 3 medical seats are taken by females in the western world today!
http://timesofindia....icleshow/4912815.cms

The MCI did NOT GRANT permission to GOVT. institutions that a. ) had FAR far better infrastructure in terms of PATIENTS and experience, but b.) whose medical staff had no motivation to falsify data on patients. Look at these data :

SRM College ( private ) / Out patients : 1,000 PD / 16 MS ortho seats / 1.5 C per seat,
General Hospital ( govt.) / Out patients : 12,000 PD / 4 MS ortho seats/ 1 L per seat

These figures can be interpreted in either of these TWO ways :

1. The huge capitation money attracts corruption to give 'more' seats.
2. The government colleges are deliberately not being allocated more seats, since that will reduce the demand for these seats

COMPARE this with the situation in western countries, where PG courses are available EVEN in their district hospitals! And the PG students get paid Handsomely for it. Even here, the clinical material is hardly good in comparison with those in our government hospitals.

The poor educational infrastructure is not limited to medicine alone. For example, even though it takes just a few months to train a pilot, most Indian pilots demand a pay far in excess of one lakh a month. Many of our students have to pay huge sums to get educated abroad. And even the best of our MBA courses are still not valued internationally, though its students still perform brilliantly offshore.

What has gone wrong with our education system as a WHOLE? Will the government sit up and take notice?

WILL THIS ANDROPHOBIC GOVERNMENT WAKE UP?
Partha persistent spammer
chennai, India
Sep 21, 2009 08:57 PM
3
Very poor cut and past (graphic display). Good article though!
Aravind Marella
Elgin, United States
Sep 21, 2009 02:19 PM
2
In the good old days of management by boxwallas , they did not go to B-schools. Number of gimlets they could gulp down without soiling the of boss's wife's skirt or how well the lady thought of them was qualification enough for the managers.

In the next phase of Wonderland of Indian Management, it was management by crisis. Ask Sharu Ranganekar. Some of them visited vylaet once, with ambition to be admitted into the Bar, their rich parents sent them too much money for them to concentrate on law. So they did the next best thing, returned to India, some times with the parapharnelia of the neighbourhood white barmaid or the cleaning woman, & became the managers in Managing Agencies. So when the boss wanted a secretary the good manager saw it that hiring agency short listed three . When asked what is one & one, the first girl replied eleven, the second said it's two , the third said it can be either eleven or two. So he went to the boss & said we have three types - the obvious one , the devious one & the third girl is comprehensive one. What's your choice, sir? Give me the blonde with long legs , said the boss.

Alas! those were the days no competetion , & they did business in splendid isolation in the Indian island.

Management by crisis types of yore thought up solutions before they buffetted from crisis to crisis to proove their indipensibility.

Problem with todays B-school grads is that they keep creating crisises, not knowing the solutions. And they became dispensible, taking down millions with them to popperhood.

Something is wrong in the woderland of Indian management school, never mind their rankings.
MANISH BANERJEE
KOLKATA, India
Sep 21, 2009 02:10 PM
1
“I would like OUTLOOK to change the parameter of judging ‘Best Colleges’ on the basis of number of ‘Immaculate’ and ‘Tainted’ politicians they produced.”
Rajneesh Batra
New Delhi, India
COLLAPSE COMMENTS   
Post a Comment
You are not logged in, please log in or register
ABOUT US | CONTACT US | SUBSCRIBE | ADVERTISING RATES | COPYRIGHT & DISCLAIMER | COMMENTS POLICY