PTI
Unheard: A protester outside a ransacked house in Lalgarh
essay
Democracy's Failing Light
Is democracy a hit with humans because it mirrors our myopia?
While we're still arguing about whether there's life after death, can we add another question to the cart? Is there life after democracy? What sort of life will it be? By democracy I don't mean democracy as an ideal or an aspiration. I mean the working model: Western liberal democracy, and its variants, such as they are.

So, is there life after democracy?

Attempts to answer this question often turn into a comparison of different systems of governance, and end with a somewhat prickly, combative defence of democracy.
 
 
Could it be that democracy, the answer to our short-term prayers, will prove the endgame of the human race?
 
 
It's flawed, we say. It isn't perfect, but it's better than everything else that's on offer. Inevitably, someone in the room will say: 'Afghanistan, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Somalia...is that what you would prefer?'

Whether democracy should be the utopia that all 'developing' societies aspire to is a separate question altogether. (I think it should. The early, idealistic phase can be quite heady.) The question about life after democracy is addressed to those of us who already live in democracies, or in countries that pretend to be democracies. It isn't meant to suggest that we lapse into older, discredited models of totalitarian or authoritarian governance. It's meant to suggest that the system of representative democracy—too much representation, too little democracy—needs some structural adjustment.

The question here, really, is: what have we done to democracy? What have we turned it into? What happens once democracy has been used up? When it has been hollowed out and emptied of meaning? What happens when each of its institutions has metastasised into something dangerous? What happens now that democracy and the Free Market have fused into a single predatory organism with a thin, constricted imagination that revolves almost entirely around the idea of maximising profit? Is it possible to reverse this process? Can something that has mutated go back to being what it used to be?

What we need today, for the sake of the survival of this planet, is long-term vision.
 
 
'Freedom' has come to mean 'choice'. It has less to do with the human spirit than with different brands of deodorant.
 
 
Can governments whose very survival depends on immediate, extractive, short-term gain provide this? Could it be that democracy, the sacred answer to our short-term hopes and prayers, the protector of our individual freedoms and nurturer of our avaricious dreams, will turn out to be the endgame for the human race? Could it be that democracy is such a hit with modern humans precisely because it mirrors our greatest folly—our nearsightedness? Our inability to live entirely in the present (like most animals do) combined with our inability to see very far into the future makes us strange in-between creatures, neither beast nor prophet. Our amazing intelligence seems to have outstripped our instinct for survival. We plunder the earth hoping that accumulating material surplus will make up for the profound, unfathomable thing that we have lost.

It would be conceit to pretend that the essays in this book provide answers to any of these questions. They only demonstrate, in some detail, the fact that it looks as though the beacon could be failing and that democracy can perhaps no longer be relied upon to deliver the justice and stability we once dreamed it would. All the essays were written as urgent public interventions at critical moments in India—during the state-backed genocide of Muslims in Gujarat; just before the date set for the hanging of Mohammed Afzal, the accused in the December 13, 2001, Parliament attack; during US President George Bush's visit to India; during the mass uprising in Kashmir in the summer of 2008; after the November 26, 2008, Mumbai attacks.
 
 
P. Chidambaram wants 85 per cent of Indians to live in cities. That process is under way and turning India into a police state.
 
 
Often they were not just responses to events, they were responses to the responses.

Though many of them were written in anger, at moments when keeping quiet became harder than saying something, the essays do have a common thread. They're not about unfortunate anomalies or aberrations in the democratic process. They're about the consequences of and the corollaries to democracy; they're about the fire in the ducts. I should also say that they do not provide a panoramic overview. They're a detailed underview of specific events that I hoped would reveal some of the ways in which democracy is practised in the world's largest democracy.
 
 
It's no coincidence that the rise of Hindutva corresponded with the moment when US made Islam its great enemy.
 
 
(Or the world's largest 'demon-crazy', as a Kashmiri protester on the streets of Srinagar once put it. His placard said: 'Democracy without Justice=Demon Crazy.')


Indelible mark: Campaigns like this one appealed to the middle class's sense of 'cool'

As a writer, a fiction writer, I have often wondered whether the attempt to always be precise, to try and get it all factually right somehow reduces the epic scale of what is really going on. Does it eventually mask a larger truth? I worry that I am allowing myself to be railroaded into offering prosaic, factual precision when maybe what we need is a feral howl, or the transformative power and real precision of poetry. Something about the cunning, Brahminical, intricate, bureaucratic, file-bound, 'apply-through-proper-channels' nature of governance and subjugation in India seems to have made a clerk out of me. My only excuse is to say that it takes odd tools to uncover the maze of subterfuge and hypocrisy that cloaks the callousness and the cold, calculated violence of the world's favourite new Superpower. Repression 'through proper channels' sometimes engenders resistance 'through proper channels'. As resistance goes this isn't enough, I know. But for now, it's all I have. Perhaps someday it will become the underpinning for poetry and for the feral howl.

***

'Listening to Grasshoppers', the essay from which this collection draws its title, was a lecture I gave in Istanbul in January 2008 on the first anniversary of the assassination of the Armenian journalist Hrant Dink.
 
 
The 2002 riots in Gujarat were a public warning to Muslim citizens from the government of the world's favourite democracy.
 
 
He was shot down on the street outside his office for daring to raise a subject that is forbidden in Turkey—the 1915 genocide of Armenians in which more than one million people were killed. My lecture was about the history of genocide and genocide denial, and the old, almost organic relationship between 'progress' and genocide.

I have always been struck by the fact that the political party in Turkey that carried out the Armenian genocide was called the Committee for Union and Progress. Most of the essays in this collection are, in fact, about the contemporary correlation between Union and Progress, or, in today's idiom, between nationalism and development—those unimpeachable twin towers of modern, free market democracy. Both of these in their extreme form are, as we now know, encrypted with the potential of bringing about ultimate, apocalyptic destruction (nuclear war, climate change).

Though these essays were written between 2002 and 2008, the invisible marker, the starting gun, is the year 1989, when in the rugged mountains of Afghanistan capitalism won its long jehad against Soviet Communism.
 
 
Ninety per cent of the independents lost in the recent elections. Clearly, it's hard to win an election without sponsorship.
 
 
(Of course, the wheel's in spin again. Could it be that those same mountains are now in the process of burying capitalism? It's too early to tell.) Within months of the collapse of the Soviet Union and the fall of the Berlin Wall, the Indian government, once a leader of the Non-Aligned Movement, performed a high-speed somersault and aligned itself completely with the United States, monarch of the new unipolar world.


Big game: Over ten billion dollars are believed to have been spent in the recent elections

The rules of the game changed suddenly and completely. Millions of people who lived in remote villages and deep in the heart of untouched forests, some of whom had never heard of Berlin or the Soviet Union, could not have imagined how events that occurred in those faraway places would affect their lives. The process of their dispossession and displacement had already begun in the early 1950s, when India opted for the Soviet-style development model in which huge steel plants (Bhilai, Bokaro) and large dams (thousands of them) would occupy the 'commanding heights' of the economy. The era of privatisation and structural adjustment accelerated that process at a mind-numbing speed.

Today, words like 'progress' and 'development' have become interchangeable with economic 'reforms', 'deregulation' and 'privatisation'. 'Freedom' has come to mean 'choice'.

 
 
Corporate houses have realised that a democratic mandate can legitimise their pillaging in a way nothing else can.
 
 
It has less to do with the human spirit than with different brands of deodorant. 'Market' no longer means a place where you go to buy provisions. The 'market' is a de-territorialised space where faceless corporations do business, including buying and selling 'futures'. 'Justice' has come to mean 'human rights' (and of those, as they say, 'a few will do'). This theft of language, this technique of usurping words and deploying them like weapons, of using them to mask intent and to mean exactly the opposite of what they have traditionally meant, has been one of the most brilliant strategic victories of the tsars of the new dispensation. It has allowed them to marginalise their detractors, deprive them of a language in which to voice their critique and dismiss them as being 'anti-progress', 'anti-development', 'anti-reform' and of course 'anti-national'—negativists of the worst sort. Talk about saving a river or protecting a forest and they say, 'Don't you believe in Progress?' To people whose land is being submerged by dam reservoirs and whose homes are being bulldozed they say, 'Do you have an alternative development model?' To those who believe that a government is duty-bound to provide people with basic education, healthcare and social security, they say, 'You're against the Market.' And who except a cretin could be against a Market?

To reclaim these stolen words requires explanations that are too tedious for a world with a short attention span, and too expensive in an era when free speech has become unaffordable for the poor.
 
 
Voters are seen as consumers, democracy is being welded to the Free Market. Those who can't consume don't matter.
 
 
This language heist may prove to be the keystone of our undoing.

Two decades of this kind of 'Progress' in India has created a vast middle class punch-drunk on sudden wealth and the sudden respect that comes with it—and a much, much vaster, desperate underclass. Tens of millions of people have been dispossessed and displaced from their land by floods, droughts and desertification caused by indiscriminate environmental engineering and massive infrastructural projects, dams, mines and special economic zones. All of them developed in the name of the poor, but really meant to service the rising demands of the new aristocracy.

The battle for land lies at the heart of the 'development' debate. Before he became India's finance minister, P. Chidambaram was Enron's lawyer and member of the board of directors of Vedanta, a multinational mining corporation that is currently devastating the Niyamgiri hills in Orissa. Perhaps his career graph informed his worldview. Or maybe it's the other way around. In an interview a year ago, he said that his vision was to get 85 per cent of India's population to live in cities. Realising this 'vision' would require social engineering on an unimaginable scale. It would mean inducing, or forcing, about five hundred million people to migrate from the countryside into cities. That process is well under way and is quickly turning India into a police state in which people who refuse to surrender their land are being made to do so at gunpoint. Perhaps this is what makes it so easy for P. Chidambaram to move so seamlessly from being finance minister to being home minister. The portfolios are separated only by an osmotic membrane. Underlying this nightmare masquerading as 'vision' is the plan to free up vast tracts of land and all of India's natural resources, leaving them ripe for corporate plunder. In effect, to reverse the post-independence policy of land reforms.

Already forests, mountains and water systems are being ravaged by marauding multinational corporations, backed by a State that has lost its moorings and is committing what can only be called 'ecocide'. In eastern India, bauxite and iron ore mining is destroying whole ecosystems, turning fertile land into desert. In the Himalayas, hundreds of high dams are being planned, the consequences of which can only be catastrophic. In the plains, embankments built along rivers, ostensibly to control floods, have led to rising river beds, causing even more flooding, more waterlogging, more salinisation of agricultural land and the destruction of livelihoods of millions of people. Most of India's holy rivers, including the Ganga, have been turned into unholy drains that carry more sewage and industrial effluent than water. Hardly a single river runs its course and meets the ocean.


Unsustainable: Big dam projects, like this one in Tehri, find widespread support

Based on the absurd notion that a river flowing into the sea is a waste of water, the Supreme Court, in an act of unbelievable hubris, has arbitrarily ordered that India's rivers be interlinked, like a mechanical water supply system. Implementing this would mean tunnelling through mountains and forests, altering natural contours and drainage systems of river basins and destroying deltas and estuaries. In other words, wrecking the ecology of the entire subcontinent. (B.N. Kirpal, the judge who passed this order, joined the environmental board of Coca-Cola after he retired. Nice touch!)

The regime of free market economic policies, administered by people who are blissfully ignorant of the fate of civilisations that grew too dependent on artificial irrigation, has led to a worrying shift in cropping patterns. Sustainable food crops, suitable to local soil conditions and micro-climates, have been replaced by water-guzzling, hybrid and genetically modified 'cash' crops which, apart from being wholly dependent on the market, are also heavily dependent on chemical fertilisers, pesticides, canal irrigation and the indiscriminate mining of ground water. As abused farmland, saturated with chemicals, gradually becomes exhausted and infertile, agricultural input costs rise, ensnaring small farmers in a debt trap. Over the last few years, more than 1,80,000 Indian farmers have committed suicide. While state granaries are bursting with food that eventually rots, starvation and malnutrition approaching the same levels as in sub-Saharan Africa stalk the land. Truly the nine per cent growth rate is beginning to look like a downward spiral. The higher the rate of this kind of growth, the worse the prognosis. Any oncologist will tell you that.


Looming spectre: The widow of a Vidarbha farmer who committed suicide

It's as though an ancient society, decaying under the weight of feudalism and caste, was churned in a great machine. The churning has ripped through the mesh of old inequalities, recalibrating some of them but reinforcing most. Now the old society has curdled and separated into a thin layer of thick cream—and a lot of water. The cream is India's 'market' of many million consumers (of cars, cell phones, computers, Valentine's Day greeting cards), the envy of international business. The water is of little consequence. It can be sloshed around, stored in holding ponds, and eventually drained away.

Or so they think, the men in suits. They didn't bargain for the violent civil war that has broken out in India's heartland: Chhattisgarh, Jharkhand, Orissa, West Bengal.

***

Coming back to 1989. As if to illustrate the connection between 'Union' and 'Progress', at exactly the same time that the Congress government was opening up India's markets to international finance, the right-wing Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP), then in the opposition, began its virulent campaign of Hindu nationalism (popularly known as 'Hindutva'). In 1990, its leader, L.K. Advani, travelled across the country, whipping up hatred against Muslims and demanding that the Babri Masjid, an old 16th-century mosque that stood on a disputed site in Ayodhya, be demolished and a Ram temple built in its place. In 1992, a mob, egged on by Advani, demolished the mosque. Feeding off the communal frenzy it had generated, the BJP, which had only two seats in Parliament in 1984, defeated the Congress in 1998 and came to power at the Centre.

It's not a coincidence that the rise of Hindutva corresponded with the historical moment when America substituted Communism with Islam as its great enemy. The radical Islamist mujahideen—whom President Reagan once entertained in the White House and compared to America's founding fathers—suddenly began to be called terrorists. CNN's live broadcast of the 1990-91 Gulf War—Operation Desert Storm—made it to elite drawing rooms in Indian cities, bringing with it the early thrills of satellite TV. Almost simultaneously, the Indian government, once a staunch friend of the Palestinians, turned into Israel's 'natural ally'. Now India and Israel do joint military exercises, share intelligence and probably exchange notes on how best to administer occupied territories.

By 1998, when the BJP took office, the 'Progress' project of privatisation and liberalisation was about eight years old. Though it had campaigned vigorously against the economic reforms, saying they were a process of 'looting through liberalisation', once it came to power the BJP embraced the free market enthusiastically and threw its weight behind huge corporations like Enron.
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Daily MailPublished
COLLAPSE COMMENTS :
HAVE YOUR SAY
Jul 31, 2009 09:01 PM
218
I tried to read this...But seriously, nothing is worth this torture.
Ashwin
Jersey City, United States
Jul 27, 2009 12:33 AM
217
Way to go Arundhati. It takes courage to call a spade a spade and not stay ensconced in a make believe world. I find that a huge majority of Indians tend to be pseudo-nationalists & pseudo-patriots. It's not their fault for not being able to see the picture clearly. After all, they are busy making money in their own towns and giving in to hedonistic urges. And not having travelled outside their own cities & villages - Mumbai, Bangalore, Delhi, Chennai, Kolkatta, a village here and there, which they believe is all of India, and ‘the west’, which they believe is all there is to the world; it is unlikely that they would know facts first hand.

What's most interesting is that the superior the language skills, the more people are vain, arrogant and narrow minded. Strange, but true.

Bertrand Russell, an Englishman, much to the chagrin of the pseudo-patriots who attack you, said, "Over the years, we have sharpened our language skills enough to couch our real intentions in sophisticated arguments and exotic terminologies. But deep down, our basic instincts (arrogance & myopic perception of reality) remain... only to resurface at the slightest provocation." We Indians, living in our faulty democracy, fit the bill.

For every pseudo-patriot that hates you, you have 10 true patriots who love you. They may not speak up because they’re not radicals, but they’re there. More than that, it’s about being liberal enough to allow another to express their point of view and respectfully disagree. Keep going.
Jay
Bangalore, India
Jul 24, 2009 08:04 PM
216
Niranjan Sharma aka Vikshiptha:

>> She thinks, Oh!how she thinks,that she's the intellectual princess, if not goddess

She never said that. Looks like you are assuming that someone with such literary prowess/skill would naturally think that way. But that's not necessarly true.

>> A congenital hatred for the Hindu polity

Which is a good thing. Communal politics, religious violence, extremism etc should have no role to play in a modern society.
Kumar
Bangalore, India
Jul 24, 2009 07:45 PM
215
A SMALL PRAYER TO GOD(ESS) OF SMALL (BIG) THINGS...

She thinks, Oh!how she thinks,that she's the intellectual princess, if not goddess
No marks for your insinuating guess, you lesser mortals
'Give Kashmir to Pakis, she says
And the Editor( no, not the dog) is all applause...

A congenital hatred for the Hindu polity
Marks and mars her writing to eternity
She ctiricise everone's prejudices
About her own, what abysmal ignoracnce...

It's a waste of time, I know, you know, everyone knows
Because of are los, trees, paper, forsts
We Indians, no doubt, are all masochist
She abuses us, but we're in thrall of this sadist
'Give her to Pakis', I say, 'better still to Vatican
So that,the rest, we all, remain, in peace, here, Indian...
K.Niranjan Sharma aka Vikshiptha
Mangalore, India
Jul 17, 2009 12:00 AM
214
the thing about all these intellectual debates and these words that have big big rings around them like the planet saturn: democracy. free market. capitalism. socialism collectivism elitism. - which you see on all the forums of the big papers like the NYT the FT the economist and so on. it all flows like traffic along a few major grands boulevards.

sort of like a theological doctrinal debate, except it's not even that honest, at least real theologians are upfront and very explicit when they debate, say, the contrast between "freedom of choice" and "freedom of condition", for example -
http://books.google.com...sult&ct=result&resnum=1


but these newspaper and political debates is more like how preachers rally the congregation in different competing churches, the conclusion is already foregone, at the end of the service you will never hear any church say, "actually, we have no concrete proof that god does exist". so that even the dissenting ones from within those societies, who write the alternative viewpoints or the anti-histories, they are only optical isomers or side streams that branch off of the main artery, so to even get to the exit for the alternative vision you still have to take the main highway, so its not really alternative after all. so if you're looking for something like photographs taken of what happened when theory X collided with actual experience, you can read and read and search and search but it's not there, you can't find it. all you get on all the magazines and press are just endless reflections of one single thing in a hall of mirrors. so you think you are looking at 200 diff things but it's just 200 mirrors showing you one thing. that's how i feel when i channel surf anyway. so even if you're getting your news from an alternative src, you are still contemplating the same object.

i feel all these names and labels and grand concepts - it is all someone else's baggage, no need to take it on our backs, they created it, let them carry it around on their heads like big baskets, and when they go, let it go out with them. we can make our own little baskets to carry around on our heads and fill it with things from our own lives.
Arul Francis
Clayton, California
Jul 17, 2009 12:00 AM
213
Dear Prof. Seshadri,

The translator is Nisargadatta Maharaj. Glad you liked it.
Narasimhan M.G
Bangalore, India
Jul 15, 2009 12:00 AM
212
dip
Dhaka, Bangladesh
Jul 15, 2009 12:00 AM
211
MGN:

nice quote in translation, from the bruhadaaraNya-upanishad.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Jul 15, 2009 12:00 AM
210

ok this phrase "feral howl" is precious and literary and irritating me. perhaps it is not fair to poke fun at someone like arundhati who has more integrity than everyone combined, but i can't help myself. are we at a watering hole in tanzania where a lion is going to come charging out and emit a terrible roar? are we in the end times in the book of revelations? you know my godmother in alwarpet had a relative who would make the most tasty nethili kozhambu, a gravy made with small fish and lots of tamarind, and afterwards we would sit in the living room when she would list out all the things that were going wrong in madras and when it got to be too much she would just stop and sum it all up with the conclusion: "end times, arul, we are living in end times, these things are all signs that the day of judgment is near".

i would open the packet i had brought from grand sweets in adyar and offer her laddus and jangri and murukku and seedai, but when she got on her "end times" speech, it had to run its course, nothing could derail her. "arul, do you know what is going on here in madras! eating laddus is not going to save you when the day of judgment is at hand, we have to repent and change our ways". Then she would start singing charismatic hymns. we would sing "aaaall over the woooorld, the spiiiirit is moooving," while the dog in the next door house would howl and howl along with our singing at every long vowel.

now that i'm reading arundhati's apocalyptic essay, it brings to mind my visits to __ Aunty in alwarpet. If I'm going to read about the End-of-Democracy and the Coming of the Beast from the book of revelations and dire warnings from the book of Job to throw ashes on our head, beat our breast and tear our garments, then at least i should have some nethili kozhambu before and some hymn singing after.
Arul Francis
Clayton, California
Jul 15, 2009 12:00 AM
209
"Ms. Arundhati Roy, an RNI and a darling of the colonial West liberals, humanized Muslim young women in Ahmedabad by falsely giving a personal witness-like account of the nature of her rape and burning when in fact they were not in Ahmedabad but safe and sound in the US and this information had already appeared in the print media. The details are:
Fact: T. A. Jaffri, son of Mr. Iqbal Eshan Jaffri, killed in the riots, said, “Among my brothers and sisters I am the only one living in India. And I am the eldest in the family. My sisters and brothers live in the U.S. No body knew my father's house was the target.[xvii]
Fiction: Arundhati Roy describing 'the stripping and burning of two daughters' safely living in the US. “A mob surrounded the house of ex-Congress MP, Iqbal Eshan Jaffri. His phone calls to the Director-General of Police, the Police Commissioner, the Chief Secretary, the additional Chief Secretary (home) were ignored. The mobile police vans around his house did not intervene. The mob broke into the house. They stripped his daughters and burnt them alive. Then they beheaded Jaffri and dismembered him.[xviii]
by: Romesh Diwan on Feb 28 2003

2."Great Literary Frauds of Our Time" with host Dr. John Dolan

"In particular, a nuclear war between Pakistan and India has a lot to recommend it, above all the extinction of God knows how many plaster saints on the Gandhi/Roy/Baghwan model.
Perhaps she will go down in intellectual history as a true Kali, the bringer of destruction -- the mother of the Great Winter. It would be the antithesis of all that Roy represents: a cold silence, a complete answer to the fecund heat of her animate Kerala landscape.
So scold on, Arundhati! Preach against the nukes till we all long for them, and the inclusive answer they offer to the terrible prospect of you, and your successors, remaining at the podium for another eon. Hail the Winter that has no Spring!


literary careerist who has parlayed an overwritten melodrama into unearned fame; a child of privilege whose early experiments in poverty were no more than a smart career move; a Yuppie whose real job was aerobics instructor, not slum bottle-recycler; a world-travelled, overeducated dilettante posing as a regional writer; and a fake saint ..."

There are more people who hate this lady than like her .
sandilya
Chennai, India
Jul 15, 2009 12:00 AM
208
i'm listening to parts of arundhati's book on audio from this site:
http://www.loc.gov/acq/...alrp/arundhathiroy.html
- wow, 1997, has it been so long already. i remember it like it was yesterday. her book. 12 years already. can't believe it. she is still her own person. she hasn't become a celebrity. i keep waiting for her to do something really awful, like do a product endorsement or become this indian-literary ambassador or appear on charlie rose and lapse into the ass-kissing like all the other indian literary personalities. thank god thank god thank god she still holds out. i don't know how she does it. it can't be easy. i couldn't do it in a million years, not that i would ever have to since i'm nowhere near her league. but all these famous people they just become glazed over time, just coat after coat of glazing and then they're just these shiny wax dolls. one of my friends who thinks i'm self-hating because i lack indian-pride, everytime he calls me and says "aren't you proud of so-and-so" and i just cringe and say "yuck, no" when he talks about that infosysman or that pepsi woman or that oscar award. or indians who have "made it" in america like that mira nair or jhumpa lahiri. yuck. no, why would that make me proud? i feel so cheapened and ashamed, that cheap kind of ladder-climbing "yay, i got in!" kind of success? no way. but arundhati she just breaks the chess game up completely. for once an indian who's not playing the game. i feel so proud. she doesn't play anyone else's game and doesn't give a damn what anyone else thinks. oh, i just feel so proud everytime i read one of her essays or her book. i've read her book about 200 times and i still don't get tired or bored. she's not trying to cash in on it or anything, she hasn't written a sequel or done a movie version, thank god. yes she can be a little to grand and a little carried away and sometimes a little crazy, but then when you read her you just feel the stifling going away. like when you come home and open all the windows and the breeze goes everywhere. how liberating! or like when you see a kite flying up high high high in the air. actually bad analogy. there's no one controlling the string on arundhati. i'm reading this essay again for the 10th time. it kind of meanders and i don't really see where she's going with the main point. and what's w the "feral howl" analogy. she's setting herself up w that.
Arul Francis
Clayton, California
Jul 15, 2009 12:00 AM
207
Kumar says:

The withdrawal from negative possessiveness, harmfulness etc is good but not enough. One has to use/spend life positively - for example in a legitimate desiring and fighting for rights/justice/freedom/empowerment etc of others and so on. The term ‘Maaya’ does not sound like an appropriate term to describe such positive action and contribution in the world. That may be why the ‘cynics’ that you referred take it to imply withdrawal from the real world and its moral duties etc"

This is a valid objection. But one should not confuse detachment with indifference. Indifference is selfish, detachment is not. If all is Atman, then we have a kinship with all. Thus empathy with others is important. To the extent we are indifferent, we lack knowledge of this. As Yajnavalkya says to Maitreyi in the Brihadaranyak Upanishad:

"Verily, not for the sake of the husband, my dear, is the husband loved, but he is loved for the sake of the self which, in its true nature, is one with the Supreme Self.
"Verily, not for the sake of the wife, my dear, is the wife loved, but she is loved for the sake of the self.
"Verily, not for the sake of the sons, my dear, are the sons loved, but they are loved for the sake of the self.
"Verily, not for the sake of wealth, my dear, is wealth loved, but it is loved for the sake of the self.
"Verily, not for the sake of the animals, my dear, are the animals loved, but they are loved for the sake of the self.
"Verily, not for the sake of the worlds, my dear, are the worlds loved, but they are loved for the sake of the self.
"Verily, not for the sake of the gods, my dear, are the gods loved, but they are loved for the sake of the self.
"Verily, not for the sake of the Vedas, my dear, are the Vedas loved, but they are loved for the sake of the self.
"Verily, not for the sake of the beings, my dear, are the beings loved, but they are loved for the sake of the self.
"Verily, not for the sake of the All, my dear, is the All loved, but it is loved for the sake of the self.

"Verily, my dear Maitreyi, it is the Self that should be realized—should be heard of, reflected on and meditated upon. By the realisation of the Self, my dear, through hearing, reflection and meditation, all this is known."
Narasimhan M.G
Bangalore, India
Jul 14, 2009 12:00 AM
206
Varun:>>"The most popular understanding of the concept of "Maaya" is that of the misinterpretation of reality by the senses"

the word for what you say is mithyaa, bramha satyam jagan mithyaa, iti.

the word 'maayaa' is used by aadi Sankara to mean what would be 'relativity' in the post-einsteinian 4-D science. He describes the universe
as:

maayaa-kalpita-deSa-kaala-kalanaa-vaici
trya-citree-kritam,

meaning 'a peculiar picture, vicitra-citra, painted on a canvas of space-time, desa-kaala, as seen thro the lens of relativity, maayaa-kalpita, the observer being the only one supersoul of all and inner soul in all souls of all lives, described as:

viSwam darpaNadriSyamaaNa-nagaree tulyam nija-antargatam
paSyan aatma-vimaayayaa bahir iva-udbhootam yathaa nidrayaa,
yah saakshaat kurute prabodha-samaye swaatmaanam eva advayam
tasmai Sree-guru-moortaye nama idam Sree-dakshiNaamoortaye,

in the first sloka of his dakshiNaamoorti-stuti.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Jul 14, 2009 12:00 AM
205
Varun Shekhar,

>>It's a withdrawal of the senses from any feeling of possessiveness, acquisitiveness or harmfulness toward the object/lifeform in question. But the cynics may say that it is a withdrawal from the real world altogether; that's not the idea behind "Maaya" as propounded by Shankara

The withdrawal from negative possessiveness, harmfulness etc is good but not enough. One has to use/spend life positively - for example in a legitimate desiring and fighting for rights/justice/freedom/empowerment etc of others and so on. The term ‘Maaya’ does not sound like an appropriate term to describe such positive action and contribution in the world. That may be why the ‘cynics’ that you referred take it to imply withdrawal from the real world and its moral duties etc.
Kumar
Bangalore, India
Jul 14, 2009 12:00 AM
204
>>It's a withdrawal of the senses from any feeling of possessiveness, acquisitiveness or harmfulness toward the object/lifeform in question.

such indifference extends to family, friends and fellow man?

>>But the cynics may say that it is a withdrawal from the real world altogether; that's not the idea behind "Maaya" as propounded by Shankara.

real world is made up of nothing but "the object/lifeforms in question." You can't have one without the other...
Augustus AAA
Pune, India
Jul 14, 2009 12:00 AM
203
It's a withdrawal of the senses from any feeling of possessiveness, acquisitiveness or harmfulness toward the object/lifeform in question. But the cynics may say that it is a withdrawal from the real world altogether; that's not the idea behind "Maaya" as propounded by Shankara.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Jul 14, 2009 12:00 AM
202
>>The most popular understanding of the concept of "Maaya" is that of the misinterpretation of reality by the senses.

Perfect theoretical foundation to justify one's senselessness. Particularly, encouraging one to stop developing a sense to observe one's surroundings since our observations are hopelessly prone to misinterpretation.
Augustus AAA
Pune, India
Jul 14, 2009 12:00 AM
201
"Is Maaya philosophy valid?"

The most popular understanding of the concept of "Maaya" is that of the misinterpretation of reality by the senses. Our prejudices and frailties do not allow us to see the true reality of an object or event; the thing in itself is not observed, rather its transformation by our ignorance. Hence, Shankara's "Maaya". The historian Will Durant aptly called him a pre-plagiarist of Kant.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Jul 14, 2009 12:00 AM
200
Narasimhan,

I see that you have answered on your blog comments. I hope you avoid a slanging match now. Don't answer. Remember the Sufi saying "You who butt heads with a Ram, you'll soon see a broken head".
Tearful Onion
Jhumri Talaiyya, India
Jul 13, 2009 12:00 AM
199
>>Is Maaya philosophy valid? Some thoughts on it at

What difference does it make? Its validity or lack of it is all illusory, no?
Augustus AAA
Pune, India
Jul 13, 2009 12:00 AM
198
Is Maaya philosophy valid? Some thoughts on it at

http://desicontrarian.w...-the-world-an-illusion/
Narasimhan M.G
Bangalore, India
Jul 13, 2009 12:00 AM
197
here in SF when they want to build a good train system, they go and study places which have already done it well, like the paris metro, or other cities round the world, and then they see what others have achieved and they try and build off that or at least to avoid repeating other people's blunders. why not try that route? there must be other countries, you always hear about scandinavian countries, which give their people a good life; not just gadgets and toys and $, but a decent quality of life up and down the social ladder, their choices, their dignity, stability, infrastructure, length-of-commute, their work life, their power, etc.

it would be so useful to know what diff societies try and how they work out. for this, i used to stupidly read leading authoritative magazines like "the economist" and papers like the NYT swallowing all their smooth sagacity, their poisonous lies-by-omission, and not realizing they were filtering everything to fit their pro-plutocrat lens. just dripping with that "reverence for riches", to use katharine hepburn's line from that george cukor movie 'holiday'. - at 7:50 of this video
http://www.youtube.com/...EUV_Ee0&feature=related


i just love that movie. he says incredible and powerful things like "the answer can't be just to pay bills and pile up more money".

now i am reading a chapter in paul krugman's book called "the great compression". he lays out all the key facts and builds a very convincing case that that was the closest america ever came to a truly classless society economically. their new deal, FDR and all, dismantling an aristocracy and building up a more egalitarian society, economic power down the class ladder and flattening the class hierarchy. how wonderful and egalitarian! conservatives say that that's all liberal nonsense and that it was the war that lifted everybody.
Arul Francis
Clayton, California
Jul 13, 2009 12:00 AM
196
stopperbhai-vishal -->"every has aright to put his views in a free speech forum like this."

Absolutely. Which is why all your ramblings are tolerated.

Reddy
Bangalore, India
Jul 13, 2009 12:00 AM
195
--"Instead of her if I had sent the same essay under my name Mr.Vinod Mehta would have had a belly laugh at my wanton loquacity before consigning it to a shredder."

Not just Vinod Mehta but im sure i would too !!

--"She accuses every one as biased while she is the MOST biased lady any one can come across who weaves fiction into facts to project her point of view .Many posts appeared in these columns in the past disproving her overzealous claims."

How about pointing out what you deem fiction ? Oops ... sorry ... i keep forgetting its open vomit season on the board.

-->"he promptly relinquished all the modern comforts and dressed like one of those deprived "

I see ... unless she morphs into Gandhi she is to be ignored ... and then you will promptly go on to stomp all over Gandhi in a minute. In other words she is damned if she does and damned if she doesnt because you dont agree with her trampling over your fundamentalist beliefs.
Reddy
Bangalore, India
Jul 12, 2009 12:00 AM
194
Dip to P_A:>>"According to Hinduism God makes no distinction between one religion and another"

right. that is the main reason why hinduism has had no interest in converting people of other relig into hinduism, over the millennia, or even convinced converts back to reconvert to hinduism, in recent times. main reason why hindutva implies resistance only to conv by incentives, invectives or invasions.

in fact the liberal hindutva of the vajpayee brand, does not claim any superiority of hinduism over other relig, a scent of which could be seen within the rss, vhp viewpoints.

bjp can really and rightly redefine its 'hindutva' into 'hindusthaanitva' or 'indian-ness' only; indiyaa iyam indur iva yaa tv-aakramaNa-prati-nandinee, the country has absorbed and indianized all aggressive arrivers over the centuries. all that is reqd of the socalled minorities is committment to patriotic nationalism and its religious-cultural pluralism, without deliberate attempts to change the proportions of relig and cultures in the plpulation.

In fact, hindusthaanism amounts to insaaniat, the hindi-urdu word for humaane viewpoint in general, 'heena-saamyataa' in sans, implying 'equality of treatment to the deprived', literally. if the bjp starts using 'hindustaanitva' instead of 'hindutva', the liberal-educated young india may understand them better and appreciate the real policy-framework of the basically patriotic indianic party, without misinterpretting it as some kind of majority-communal-hinduist party despising non-hindus.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Jul 12, 2009 12:00 AM
193
More perspectives on history of Ancient India? Visit
http://desicontrarian.w...2/erudite-but-mislead/.
This forum format is too confining for a proper discussion.
Narasimhan M.G
Bangalore, India
Jul 12, 2009 12:00 AM
192
>>So what in your opinion passes off as intelligent and informative ?

People who use words like "silly" and "turgid," of course!
Augustus AAA
Pune, India
Jul 12, 2009 12:00 AM
191
If you think I haven’t got it alright it’s OK but what is that you ,the pseudo secular got out of that endless ranting of A. Roy? Has she come up with any better alternate solutions than keep talking hopelessly one sided on the Kashmiris, Gujarat Muslims and her pet subject- the Palestinians, your cousins ,unconnected to India. She accuses every one as biased while she is the MOST biased lady any one can come across who weaves fiction into facts to project her point of view .Many posts appeared in these columns in the past disproving her overzealous claims.
India has many people other than she is advocating for whose daily worries are availability of electricity, clean water, roads , decent hospitals , education for children and even security of borders. She constantly cries hoarse about the plight of poor people but no constructive action she ever did except joining hooligans against the state in the name of social activism?
I will support her if she takes up such issues as corruption in public life, cleaning of polluted rivers and electoral reforms. Nay, she will never take up such all benefiting issues bcze they lack the glamour she clamours for. It is more fashionable if one rants like a bleeding heart .
When Mahatma felt guilty of living a comfortable life while his fellow humans suffered, he promptly relinquished all the modern comforts and dressed like one of those deprived and then he preached others to live within the means. Where as this lady on the contrary lives a five star luxury life, gets pampered at all possible book meets, goes on collecting trophies from the West but criticises if others aim the same. She sells mother land’s poverty and deficiencies-real & imagined- as exhibition pieces in her lectures abroad to bring in bad name rather than working for building the image of India. I hate that hypocritical approach . This country can do well without her.
Without ever really doing anything lasting good and concrete for the poor, she takes it her right to lecture every one . Isn’t that silly? Her recent essay that narrates the same muck ad nauseum, is therefore more than silly. Instead of her if I had sent the same essay under my name Mr.Vinod Mehta would have had a belly laugh at my wanton loquacity before consigning it to a shredder.
To raise the economic status of poor there got to be first creation of wealth. And that requires infrastructure. What is the point of blowing hot at the plight of poor people and blowing cold on every developmental project. If she did not agree with the present model of development then she should come up with convincing alternative new model rather than dwelling on the tenets of a beaten and defeated commie ideology just to vomit bile on us.
Mindless opposition of everything in the name of activism is her character and I loath that. What little self sufficiency in food we have today is bcze of those dams she loves to hate that irrigate vast lands to grow crops. Just see what happens when those dams damned by her are closed for a year .The very poor she is so much arguing for would be the first victims of shortage of food.
Argument for the sake of it without sound basis and alternate suggestion would not be respected just bcze she got that goddamn Booker. Pl. Spare us.
sandilya
Chennai, India
Jul 12, 2009 12:00 AM
190
"There is no point in crying about everthing without a solution."

Yup ... instead lets just throw in a couple of random, non-sensical comments on a forum and pretend we are smarter than everyone else.
Reddy
Bangalore, India
Jul 12, 2009 12:00 AM
189
"she should go and live among the people she is arguing for than keep on bugging us with her silliest & turgid essays. "

You mean after readig her 14 page article, the best you could come up with as criticism is 'silly' and 'turgid'!! So what in your opinion passes off as intelligent and informative ? Hindutvadis are a phenomenon.
Reddy
Bangalore, India
Jul 12, 2009 12:00 AM
188
There is no point in crying about everthing without a solution. From day 1 there was injustice and there will be.
I was dissappointed that there Madam Arundathi Roy have no answer for any of the questions she have raised. (a version of morning about everything)
Justanin
Glasgow, United Kingdom
Jul 11, 2009 12:00 AM
187
Welcome to Divakar's Sathyagraha - News and views from Divakar S Natarajan's, "no excuses", ultra peaceful, non partisan, individual sathyagraha against corruption and for the idea of the rule of law in India. Now in its 18th year.

RTI Act 2005 Abuse In Andhra Pradesh- SIC Cheats! Chief Secretary Lies!

http://sathyagraha.blog...-in-andhra-pradesh.html
divakarssathyagraha
Hyderabad, India
Jul 11, 2009 12:00 AM
186
*But you are borrowing from currently fashionable environmentalism which has a distinct philosophy of its own! I am not saying that is bad...but you are borrowing.
Augustus AAA
Pune, India
Jul 11, 2009 12:00 AM
185
>>To move forward habits have to be broken not by first trying to replace the basis from which they derive but the practice. Eventually, it will render the basis at least toothless, if not changed.

I think I see your point but the practice has to be motivated by something.

>>As an example thru the freedom movement and practice of democracy, one thing that has changed is that the discriminated no longer take it as their "station in life" and that has also produced a sizable population that at least mouths that this discrimination is no longer acceptable and sustainable.

That didn't take a change in philosophy but more people becoming aware of their rights.

>>Taking my children, all of 12 and 9 - their practice of ineglatarianism or throwing garbage whereever they feel like or lack of empathy for the poor will depend more on what they observe around as practice and most importantly from their parents/grandparents. They will not do it on some understanding of the philosphical/theological underpining of the culture they are born into. So I have to show them the change by change of my own habits and practice not by mouthing changed philosphy/theology borrowed from someone else.

But you are borrowing from currently fashion of environmentalism which has a distinct philosophy of its own! I am not saying that is bad...but you are borrowing.
Augustus AAA
Pune, India
Jul 11, 2009 12:00 AM
184
I am sure, but for Arundhati’s one book wonder reputation no editor with mind would have considered to publish this haphazardly renarrative 14 page tediously long incoherent so called essay.

I wonder what was her point? She kept on ranting on everything on earth. Finally what is she complaining about and to whom? All of it sounds just meaningless rhetoric.

Why can’t Arundhati focus her ranting energy on some common issue like pollution of rivers rather than Kashmiris and Palestinians while she conveniently forgets equally affected other minorities. If she is sincere, like Mahatma she should go and live among the people she is arguing for than keep on bugging us with her silliest & turgid essays. Now I am very clear that knowledge and wisdom need not go hand in hand. She is an example; she is educated but appallingly lacks in basic common sense and wisdom.
sandilya
Chennai, India
Jul 11, 2009 12:00 AM
183
Pedda Anna,

According to Hinduism God makes no distinction between one religion and another. People may worship Him in any form they wish. The form of worship does not matter to Him; His only concern is the quality of love which is expressed in worship. The supreme lord accepts every kind of worship, because He is supreme.



dip
Dhaka, Bangladesh
Jul 11, 2009 12:00 AM
182
Augustus .... I am not sure I notice the inconsistency you point out :-) May be I am not doing a good job.

All I am saying is whether some of the habits have deep rooted philosophical/theological basis is interesting but a thing of the past. Knowing it might be good too but not necessary to bring about change - certainly not sufficient.

To move forward habits have to be broken not by first trying to replace the basis from which they derive but the practice. Eventually, it will render the basis at least toothless, if not changed.

As an example thru the freedom movement and practice of democracy, one thing that has changed is that the discriminated no longer take it as their "station in life" and that has also produced a sizable population that at least mouths that this discrimination is no longer acceptable and sustainable.

Taking my children, all of 12 and 9 - their practice of ineglatarianism or throwing garbage whereever they feel like or lack of empathy for the poor will depend more on what they observe around as practice and most importantly from their parents/grandparents. They will not do it on some understanding of the philosphical/theological underpining of the culture they are born into. So I have to show them the change by change of my own habits and practice not by mouthing changed philosphy/theology borrowed from someone else.
Arun Maheshwari
Bangalore, India
Jul 11, 2009 12:00 AM
181
Everyone loves the Greek myths, from schoolchildren to the popular academician Joseph Campbell, who drew from his early studies in Indian mythology a strained view that the Greeks were also spiritual mythologists. It is true there are connections, even verbal parallels between India and Greece coming from an ancient Indo-European connection. But in India the myths were subsumed into a rich religious and philosophical tradition, while the Greek parallels floated loose in a semi-secular society which had no systemic view of religion or any serious working theology.


The goddess of Earth (Greek Gaia , Indian Prthivi, Scandinavian Erd, Balt Zemes mate).
1. The goddess-protector of fertility (Greek Demeter , Roman Ceres, Scandinavian Freyja).
2. The goddesses-mother (Ireland Danu , Hittite Hannahanna).
3. The goddess of loves (Greek Aphrodite, Scandinavian Freyja).
4. The goddess of marriage (Greek Hera, Roman Juno, Scandinavian Frigg, Slav Lada , Indian Laksmi).
5. The goddess of destiny (These divinities usually were gathered for triads: Greek Moirae; Scandinavian Nornir ; Balt Laima, Dekla, Karta).
6. The goddess of war (Ireland Morrighan - see: ' Cuchulainn against Morrighan ' , Scandinavian Freyja).
7. The goddess-herald of death (Greek erinies, Etruscan Vanth , Scandinavian Valkyrie Valkyrie , Balt vele).
8. The goddess of women skill (Greek Athena , Roman Minerva, Celt Brigit).
Pedda Anna
new york, United States
Jul 11, 2009 12:00 AM
180
>>Another interesting point is that most of these gods have parallels in Greekoroman Pantheon too.

That should make sense since Greek is part of the Indo-European branch of the linguistic tree. While Greek follows the Western branch, Indo-Iranian subbranches of its Eastern branch and Indo-Aryan (i.e. Vedic Sanskrit not to be confused with Classic Sanskrit of Mahabharata etc) further subbranches out. Curiously, it is the Eastern branch that is "innovative" while the western is "conservative" linguistically speaking. Fascinating stuff.


Augustus AAA
Pune, India
Jul 11, 2009 12:00 AM
179
Augustus AAA,

"Mitra, Varuna, Indra, and Nasatya"

The religion practiced in west asia and specially in Bactria included the abovementioned gods. They all find parallels in Hindu Pantheon. Except Anahita, who was the Earth mother goddess of all the food grains and fertility. Mithra is another name for Vishnu.

Another interesting point is that most of these gods have parallels in Greekoroman Pantheon too.
JayKay Chraborty
Kolkatta, India
Jul 11, 2009 12:00 AM
178
typo: that should read of course, "after Nov/2008"
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Jul 11, 2009 12:00 AM
177
6 terror attacks *after* Nov 26/2009 were foiled. So Arundhati's justice seekers are still "serving notice", even after the Mumbai terror. No doubt these fine folk are only after justice, to ensure that India becomes truly secular, democratic and pluralistic.




http://ibnlive.in.com/n...after-2611/96672-3.html


Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Jul 10, 2009 12:00 AM
176
Wonder when the Arundhati's of this world will take note of these victims of terror. This one from the Mumbai train bombing of July, 2006, 3 years ago. From rediff.com

Priti Sawant sits with her two-year-old daughter in her home in Bhayandar, a township near Mumbai [ Images ].

There is a vacant look in her eyes. Her husband Parag, just 29 years old, was injured in the Mumbai train blasts of July 11, 2006. Parag suffered a severe head injury which resulted in a brain hemorrhage.

In an unconscious state, he was taken to the Bhaktivedanta Hospital and shifted to the Hinduja Hospital in north-central Mumbai the same night. The hospital is where he has lain for the last three years.
Parag has undergone five neurosurgical procedures. His father Prakash, who works at the Mazgaon docks in the city; his mother and uncle take turns sitting by his bedside.

Parag and Priti had met five years before the blasts devastated their lives. They fell in love and got married in 2001 when Parag was working as an assistant sales manager in a company. Just as they were dreaming of building a future for their child, the bottom dropped abruptly out of their world.
The couple had just about begun rejoicing in the news that Priti was pregnant after five years of marriage, that 7/11 happened. From a peaceful life shunting between her parents' home to her husband's home, both in Bhayandar, life became a nightmare.

Now Priti travels to Mahim in north-central Mumbai every day. She takes the local, the same train that maimed her husband for life.

A few months after the blasts, Priti delivered her baby. The Railways that had promised jobs to the next of kin, dilly-dallied in true bureaucratic style. Jobs had been announced for the kin of those who had died, but Parag was alive.

After Parag's father and uncle's relentless pursuit, the Railways gave Priti a job. Now Priti spends her time looking after her baby, her job, her home and her husband.
Her parents and in-laws have helped her immensely. Priti leaves for work from her mother's house, leaving the baby in her care during the day. On the weekends she goes to her in-laws's home.

Two years ago she enrolled in college and attends classes on Saturday. Priti has passed her second year in college and will graduate next year. She has decided to get a Master's degree as she believes it will help her later in life. Her child is now in nursery school.

Every Sunday she spends the day with Parag at the hospital. "He now recognises me, his parents and his child. He understands us -- like when we say 'eye' he points to his eyes. He says 'Amma, Papa.' He shakes hands when you ask him too," says Priti.

Two years back the doctors had said that only time would show if there was any improvement because he was then in a vegetative state. Parag was alive, but not aware. The awareness is returning slowly.

"I am eternally indebted to the Railways, they are paying all his hospital expenses," says Priti.

Three years after the tragic day, the pain in Priti's eyes is heart-wrenching but her belief that her husband will rise from that hospital bed is a lesson in courage.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Jul 10, 2009 12:00 AM
175
>>My point, however, is that once they become habit and that too over mult-millenia, it is habit that needs to be broken and changed. This can't happen by just changing philosphy.

But didn't you just get done arguing that it was philosophy that gave birth to and sustained attitudes that became habits? So what instrumentality is used to break the habits? Let's hope you don't say, lati sticks.

While we may have similar pathologies to other people in the third world, our set were incubated and birthed in our unique cultural matrix. That's why we need to analyze them and draw any conclusions if we can on the topic of Indian democracy.
Augustus AAA
Pune, India
Jul 10, 2009 12:00 AM
174
Some are so beneath contempt that they are best ignored, but it is no fun to watch them expose themselves, pathetic sight as they are with their chaddis in a different city
Ajit Tendulkar
Seattle, United States
Jul 10, 2009 12:00 AM
173
Let me try. My elbow is in my sleeve. My chaddi is in Seattle.
Augustus AAA
Pune, India
Jul 10, 2009 12:00 AM
172
All right, moderator, a typo: read 'tale' as 'tail' though in the case of the plagiarist, tale(s) is more appropriate, as he is so full of tall ones.
Ajit Tendulkar
Seattle, United States
Jul 10, 2009 12:00 AM
171
This is called brazenness. But that is to be expected from someone who has been kicked out from this forum more than once and had threatened to never come back on a pompous blog that was supposed to shake up the world. And there he came back, with his tale between his legs... Nothing more needs to be said...
Ajit Tendulkar
Seattle, United States
Jul 10, 2009 12:00 AM
170
>>It would be nice when indulging in copy-paste to at least provide the source so that one knows the credentials of information being plagiarised

Then a simple request for source(s) would have done the trick.
Augustus AAA
Pune, India
Jul 10, 2009 12:00 AM
169
"Since we are talking about Indian Democracy we also need to talk about Ancient Indian Republics (like the Lichchavis) who practiced a form of representational government"

Not just the Lichchavis, but the Malavas, Madrakas, Arjunayanas ,Yaudheyas et al.
These were all republican, non-monarchical states that existed as far back as 400 BCE. The invading Greeks were impressed by the states in Northwest India that they encountered, and described their governments as democratic. Of course, democratic didn't mean parliamentary as what exists presently, but popular, non-authoritarian and egalitarian, by the standards of the time.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Jul 10, 2009 12:00 AM
168
It would be nice when indulging in copy-paste to at least provide the source so that one knows the credentials of information being plagiarised:


http://books.google.co....sult&ct=result&resnum=1
Ajit Tendulkar
Seattle, United States
Jul 10, 2009 12:00 AM
167
Varun ... sure as you point out ineglatarianism, lack of civic sense or lack of concern for another human being unconnected to us in any way other than being human is not our monopoly. In fact I was trying to not even look at it from the prism of "religion".

It is rampant in the 3rd world, irrespective of their colour, culture, religion, etc. However, we should also not miss the fact that possibly our ineglatarianism, etc. might have certain aspects unique to us. At least to me it is obvious that some of these are unique to us and linked to our history (which might have basis in philosophy and theology making it hard to overcome).
Arun Maheshwari
Bangalore, India
Jul 10, 2009 12:00 AM
166
>>"Seshadri, >> 'humans in divinity united'.

Anw: >> " Sufi Islam says the same thing. "

as also jesuit christianity, I suppose.

the world can find peace really if all moslems follow the sufis, all christians the jesuits and all indics the vedanta .
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Jul 10, 2009 12:00 AM
165
Varun:>>"V.Seshadri- fabulous. Some real Indian soul there."

thanks, for the kind appreciation.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Jul 10, 2009 12:00 AM
164
--"I wish Arundhati had done some thinking, before spitting out this drivel."

If what she writes is drivel, how would you characterize the horse-shit that passes for comments on this board by what can only be termed as Hindu Taliban, like you and your fellow Sanghis ?? So far, besides a few posters i havent read a single comment that attempts to analyze what she says. Instead we have a ton of posts by lazy dimwits who cant tell their elbow from their ass.
Reddy
Bangalore, India
Jul 10, 2009 12:00 AM
163
Augustus .... Sure many habits have a philosphical basis (and hence religious). In fact, philosphy is theory, so habits (practice) is how they get "real". My point, however, is that once they become habit and that too over mult-millenia, it is habit that needs to be broken and changed. This can't happen by just changing philosphy. On the other hand even though humans are creatures of habit, some more than others, habits can be changed with a higher chance of success.

My hope is that with more time, the idea of democracy, and its practice will take precedence over the ideas from religion, especially where there is a strong overlap. I think even the ideas of justice/injustice can change whatever be the historical past on these concepts for a people.

I still maintain that "comparative religion" as intellectually stimulating as it might be, will not offer any paths to a solution.
Arun Maheshwari
Bangalore, India
Jul 10, 2009 12:00 AM
162
>>we also need to talk about Ancient Indian Republics (like the Lichchavis) who practiced a form of representational government that is definitely worthy of mention in any global discussion on Democracy.

If we had more definite information on how they practiced democracy before the Vedic influence, I bet it would be a fascinating study.
Augustus AAA
Pune, India
Jul 10, 2009 12:00 AM
161
>>When birds of the same feather like you and Augustus flock together there has to be more noise pollution.

We are having an intelligent, adult discussion on important item and civilly disagreeing where we have different opinions on a subject.

>>Rest all is nothing but stinking the forum with anti Hindu stuff.Go ahead after all this is supposed to be a free speech forum but with little interactive selectivity.

When you have something worthwhile to add to the conversation, you can be sure you will get some feedback. Until then, whether you bark like a dog on the street or set your hair on fire for attention, nobody is going to care about your tiresome blathering. That's the part about "free speech" you haven't been educated on.

Augustus AAA
Pune, India
Jul 10, 2009 12:00 AM
160
Augustus your detailed post on ancient indian history is excellent and i can corroborate it with necessary evidence if i have the time !

Since we are talking about Indian Democracy we also need to talk about Ancient Indian Republics (like the Lichchavis) who practiced a form of representational government that is definitely worthy of mention in any global discussion on Democracy.
Reddy
Bangalore, India
Jul 10, 2009 12:00 AM
159
>>But why should Hindu( what we understand as the religion of Hinduism) be associated solely with the Vedas and the introduction of the Vedas, reputedly, circa 1500 BCE? It has been shown that there are elements of the Hindu culture in the Harappan civilisation, which goes back beyond 2500 BCE.

Because of the proportion of contribution of ideas that later evolved into Hinduism.

>>It's not clear that the Vedas are "foreign"; there are no foreign reminiscences or references( i.e to Central Asia/Iran/Egypt/Babylon) in them at all.

I don’t think the “foreign reminiscences” test stands up to scholarly scrutiny. What we do know is what we called the Vedic religion is very different from we now call “Hindu” religion. Obviously, they are connected.

>>Contrast this with, say, the memoirs of Babur,who is very clear that he is from Central Asia, and moreover, longs for the place.
But even assuming a 1500 BCE origin of the Vedas, that's a very long time ago, and more than sufficient time for the culture it represents to claim purchase on the soul of a country, whatever its origin- bearing in mind the pre-Vedic contribution.

Part of the reason is Rig Veda almost exclusively deals with religious matters. It seems the people who wrote it didn't care about temporal, geographic, historical, zoological, topographical information.

The Rigveda whose geographical horizon is limited to the Punjab and its surroundings does not yet know of iron but only of the hard metal copper/bronze. Since iron is only found later on in Vedic texts, the ''black metal'' and as makes its appearance in S. Asia only by c. 1200 or 1000 BC, the Rig Veda must be earlier than that. The RV also does not know of large cities such as that of the Indus civilization but only of ruins and of small forts. Therefore, it must be later than the disintegration of the Indus cities in the Punjab, at c. 1900 BC. A good, possible date would be that of the Mitanni documents of N.Iraq/Syria of c. 1400 BC that mention the RV gods and some other Old Indo-European words.

The Mantra language texts whose geographical horizon stretches from Bactria (Balhika) to
AÌga (NW Bengal) mention iron for the first time and therefore should be contemporaneous or slightly rather later than 1200/1000 BC.

The Yajur Veda prose texts have a narrow horizon focusing on Haryana, U.P. and the Chambal
area; they and the early texts seem to overlap in geographical spread and cultural inventory with the archaeologically attested Painted Gray Ware culture, an elite pottery ware of the nobility, and may therefore be dated after c. 1200 BC (until c. 800 BC).

The end of the Vedic period is marked by the spread of the Vedic culture of the confederate state of Haryana/U.P. (but generally, not of its people) eastwards into Bihar and by a sudden widening of the geographical horizon to an area from Gandhara to Andhra. This is, again,
matched by the sudden emergence of the NBP luxury ware and the emergence of the first eastern kingdoms such as Kosala (but not yet of Magadha, that still is off limits to Brahmins).

The early Upanishads precede the date of the Buddha, now considered to be around 400 BC of Mahavira and of the re-emergence of cities around 450 BC.

In short, the period of the four Vedas seems to fall roughly between c. 1500 BC and c. 500 BC.

There are other dating schemes but none that takes all the evidence into consideration.
Augustus AAA
Pune, India
Jul 10, 2009 12:00 AM
158
>>These people after all, if they are foreign, are said to come from central asia, which is known for nomadic tribes and a civilization vacuum.

Never judge a people by their nomadic exterior...They were part of a great migration of people who brought very powerful ideas with them...obviously, not all good but powerful nevertheless. That in itself should evoke our respect for and curiosity about them.
Augustus AAA
Pune, India
Jul 10, 2009 12:00 AM
157
Seshadri,

>> 'humans in divinity united'.

Sufi Islam says the same thing.
Anwaar
Dallas, United States
Jul 09, 2009 12:00 AM
156
Another rant by the one-trick-pony Arundhati Roy .. high on verbiage, low on content !
Pankaj Vaishnavi
London, United Kingdom
Jul 09, 2009 12:00 AM
155
Reddy- The problem is it involves thinking ... about the problem ! God forbid ...

SO true. I wish Arundhati had done some thinking, before spitting out this drivel.
Maha
NJ, United States
Jul 09, 2009 12:00 AM
154
>>Sure. Let us assume…Let us also assume there is a basic philosophical reason behind these challenges we have. However, today it is about habits built over multi-millenia timescale of practice that will need to change.

Are we merely programmed machines perpetually enslaved to our habits?

>>Changing philosphy (or religion) isn't going to change anything since it has now become a habit.

Not only did the basic philosophy form our habits, it also sustains them in our day-to-day living. Besides, I thought our minds were the ultimate in open architecture into which any new idea can be plugged in…perhaps every new idea including contradictory ones. At least, that’s what we advertise ourselves to be.

>>It is reasonable to assume that these challenges exist is the same measure (statistical distribution) across the various diversity of India (including religion) - variance if any is inconsequential.

Agree.

>>The whole debate on this forum, as usual, is hijacked into a "comparative religion" debate.

True. We tend to do that to an unhealthy degree. However, throughout the history of ideas and in almost all societies, it is the religious ideas that have the most profound, fundamental, broad-based and lasting impact on how we live and interact with others; even if the strictly theological matters are neglected, benignly or malignantly depending on one's point of view. One can argue political, economic and social ideas flow from these religious ideas; especially our notions of justice/injustice.

As long as the debate is intelligent and a good faith search for the fundamental reasons for our behaviours that affect our interactions with others, I think it is profitable.

>>Religion really offers very little to changing these habits or help to our democracy.

I differ from you on this point. It is religion that provides the foundation to how we relate to another person; family or non-family being a second order question. Once that foundation is laid, it determines the character and scope of democracy we can theoretically practice. Just as a foundation determines what kind of a house can be built on it.

>>In fact, IMHO, religion, can help by becoming more of a personal (private) thing for individuals and their families.

If religions were purely personal and had no spillover effect into how we think about ourselves, our neighbours and how we OUGHT to relate to one another, then I agree with you that it has no relevance to democracy. However, my limited mind suspects otherwise.
Augustus AAA
Pune, India
Jul 09, 2009 12:00 AM
153

A very long article from a Roy; a very very longer, continued replies from readers.

I wonder at Outlook's deep pocket in affording a data server.

Arundhati Roy may not inspire one to be a writer but she can inspire one to write a fiction and settle in life for ever.....

Sasi KC
Reston, United States
Jul 09, 2009 12:00 AM
152
V.Seshadri- fabulous. Some real Indian soul there.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Jul 09, 2009 12:00 AM
151
Arun, sensible message. Just like to point out that if you mention inegalitarian societies, lack of civic sense and basic humanitarian concern for others and substandard infrastructure as well, you will get a nod of the head from many people in Brazil, El Salvador, Philippines, Argentina, Nigeria and many more non-Hindu societies. If one were to particularly castigate India among this group, the more astute of those people will assert that the difference between them and India is just a question of degree and numbers i.e population. Many people including posters in this forum are consciously or unconsciously comparing India with the most affluent and advanced countries in the world. Which is understandable, but not a realistic way of looking at India's dynamism.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Jul 09, 2009 12:00 AM
150
Akil to Anw: >>" I will happily consider ALLAH and Jesus as God and pray to them too".

this is the real reason for the longivity of hinduism over the millennia. the 'hindu's, are really 'humans in divinity united', in sanaatan dharma, even tho the word 'hindu' itself is of recent origin. adi Sankara said, long before islamic invaders gave name hindusthan = india to aaryavarta saptasindhu, 'baandhavaah Siva-bhaktaaS-ca, swa-deSo bhuvana-trayam', meaning 'all those attached to the goodness-lord of the world [Siva = God] are our relatives only, our spiritual country is the full domain of the three worlds [divine, demonic, human; land-living, sea-living or air-borne; earth-bound life-souls, or saturn-bound hell-souls or the heaven-living souls either in the gravity-free free-movements [swayam gamyate iti swargah] region betw sun and jupiter, waiting for rebirth on earth or those who have salvated beyond space-time thro the black hole of the sun, to eternal lives as divines].

Pedda Anna's painfully extracted postings depicting hinduism in very bad forms does not have any effect on hindus like you and I, it does not lead to destruction of hinduism as envisaged by them, since we do not see hinduism as an 'institutionalized religion, nationally or globally, under any pope or caliph or even locally under any church or board. We seen all human and other individual lives only in different stages of evolution fully and eternally under the micro-governance of an indwelling paramaatman and macro-supervision of the same lord as the maheSwara! teachers, aachaaryas, prophets etc are only provided at His will as and when reqd for individual souls or groups, but they serve only as 'puro-hita's placed in front at times and places as rqd,
but 'guruh saakshaat parabramhan', the only guide to eternal truth beyond concealment by maaya, space-time-relativity delusion, is the Absolute Lord Himself, only. [guptam roopayati iti guruh]
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Jul 09, 2009 12:00 AM
149
Augustus writes ..... "But no solution(s) until the problem is diagnosed properly! So what is the problem?"

Sure. Let us assume the challenge for our democracy to be "real" is "a very ineglatarian society", "lack of civic sense" and "basic human concern for the other unrelated/unconnected to us by blood". Let us also assume there is a basic philosophical reason behind these challenges we have. However, today it is about habits built over multi-millenia timescale of practice that will need to change. Changing philosphy (or religion) isn't going to change anything since it has now become a habit. It is reasonable to assume that these challenges exist is the same measure (statistical distribution) across the various diversity of India (including religion) - variance if any is inconsequential.

That is my problem. The whole debate on this forum, as usual, is hijacked into a "comparative religion" debate. Religion really offers very little to changing these habits or help to our democracy. In fact, IMHO, religion, can help by becoming more of a personal (private) thing for individuals and their families. IMHO,
comparative religion is a subject whose "use by date" has long expired - if religion should be a personal choice of individuals then "comparative religion" has very little to contribute.

My theory is that the practice of democracy will chip away at the old habits, possibly slowly due to them being multi-millenia but surely.

IMHO, democracy is the best bet for us to modernize a fundamentally "hindu" society yet maintaining an enriching connection to the past - where some of the past will be shed, some exist only on paper (in name).
Arun Maheshwari
Bangalore, India
Jul 09, 2009 12:00 AM
148
Ms. Arundhati Roy is a die-hard misanthrope whose heart bleeds for anyone who has declared war against the state, whether they are the Terrorists from Pakistan, Maoists within our country or the Separatists in Kashmir.

What exactly does she want? India to become a Pakistan or a China!!!

Perhaps she would prefer to hand over the western parts of the country to the likes of Lashkar – e – Taiba (LET), Jaish – e – Mohammad (JEM) etc. from Pakistan to take care of the “Hindu Extremist”.

In the eastern part of the country there is always the Harkat – Ul – Jihad – al – Islami (HUJI) willing to take over.

The Central India could be given to the Maoists to establish the Communist utopian Gulags.

Now, she even hates the Leftist who participate in the Parliamentary politics because they are not extreme enough.

Thanks, but no thanks Ms. Roy.

Give us the imperfect liberal democracies with all the shortcomings any day.

Gopi K. Nambiar
Bangalore
Gopi K. Nambiar
Bangalore, India
Jul 09, 2009 12:00 AM
147
Akil,

>> to even accept that "HINDU GODS are GODS too.

There are no Hindu Gods or Muslim God. Your God is my God.

>> "perpetual pursuit of denigrating HINDUISM".

Can you cite even one post in which I have denigrated Hinduism, or any other religion?
Anwaar
Dallas, United States
Jul 09, 2009 12:00 AM
146
ANWAAR, DALLAS
VIKRAM CHANDRA

Neither have I initiated the discussion nor do I intent to disrespect any religion. I will happily consider ALLAH and Jesus as God and pray to them too. Will ANWAR or AUGUSTUS AAA have the courage to even accept that "HINDU GODS are GODS too???

The comments were aimed at the AUGUSTUS AAA, ANWAR etc who on "perpetual pursuit of denigrating HINDUISM".

"quotes from the Bible and the Quran which they keep repeating ad infinitum, totally oblivious of what the rest of the scriptures say and how those quotes have traditionally been interpreted"

Anwar, The NWFP of Pakistan had a history of being "secular" till 1947. But aren't the ISLAMIC terrorist evoking QUR'AN to demand JAZIA from non- Muslims Now ??? (Surah 9/29-At- Tawhah- Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the last day- Until they pay Jizyah) The situation can change only if such religious scriptures like QURAN are purged of all such Verses.
Akil
Bangalore, India
Jul 09, 2009 12:00 AM
145
Augustus--"Agree that article is too long. But no solution(s) until the problem is diagnosed properly! So what is the problem? "

The problem is it involves thinking ... about the problem ! God forbid ...
Reddy
Bangalore, India
Jul 09, 2009 12:00 AM
144
>> you cooked up a fiction bout killing of a gentleman in Gujrat while he was in USa during riots you lost all credibility till eternity.

That was no gentleman. That was the daughter of the former Member of Parliament Ehsan Jafri, who was indeed in the USA. Arundhati got the story from TIME magazine.
Anwaar
Dallas, United States
Jul 09, 2009 12:00 AM
143
>> As long as our thinking and communicating is cursed with gross approximations rather than precision, anything can be anything we want it to be!

That is a perfect retort for Akil! Shakhas of the RSS have their choice quotes from the Bible and the Quran which they keep repeating ad infinitum, totally oblivious of what the rest of the scriptures say and how those quotes have traditionally been interpreted. Probably only a very few pupils swallow everything that the shakhas propagate. Akil is one of them.
Anwaar
Dallas, United States
Jul 09, 2009 12:00 AM
142
>>Nobel Prize winner for Complaining is back with her usual Great wall of china length of article. Please give us the solution.

Agree that article is too long. But no solution(s) until the problem is diagnosed properly! So what is the problem?
Augustus AAA
Pune, India
Jul 09, 2009 12:00 AM
141
It's not clear that the Vedas are "foreign"; there are no foreign reminiscences or references( i.e to Central Asia/Iran/Egypt/Babylon) in them at all. Contrast this with, say, the memoirs of Babur,who is very clear that he is from Central Asia, and moreover, longs for the place.
But even assuming a 1500 BCE origin of the Vedas, that's a very long time ago, and more than sufficient time for the culture it represents to claim purchase on the soul of a country, whatever its origin- bearing in mind the pre-Vedic contribution.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Jul 08, 2009 12:00 AM
140
"Any one who is NOT a decedent from any of the Jewish Tribe converting to Christianity will NOT attain salvation through Jesus."

Not sure if anyone reached their salvation through Christianity - Jesus, Jews or others - but the good moral conduct preachings, which are an embodiment of major religions, must have helped them to get through without many hardships in their day-to-day lives.
vikram chandra
Visakhapatnam, India
Jul 08, 2009 12:00 AM
139
"NO Jews are NOT Christians. But Jesus propounded Christianity specifically only for Jews."

You think Pope needs this clarification?
vikram chandra
Visakhapatnam, India
Jul 08, 2009 12:00 AM
138
"NO Jews are NOT Christians. But Jesus propounded Christianity specifically only for Jews."

You think Pope needs this clarification?
vikram chandra
Visakhapatnam, India
Jul 08, 2009 12:00 AM
137
Nobel Prize winner for Complaining is back with her usual Great wall of china length of article. Please give us the solution. What do you propose to solve the problems you have listed ? I have been reading your articles for quite a long time and not once you have proposed a Solution. The worst thing is,people who listen to you and follow you also have not thought of asking you how you resolve all the issues which you complain.
Srikrishna Bhagwan
New York, United States
Jul 08, 2009 12:00 AM
136
Droneing on and on. Ms Arundhato Roy the day you cooked up a fiction bout killing of a gentleman in Gujrat while he was in USa during riots you lost all credibility till eternity.. Despite that had it been short article I might have gone through to show you poor intelligence but who the hells is going to read and article of 14 pages from a person with little to no credibility.
Anil
Toronto, Canada
Jul 08, 2009 12:00 AM
135
"Replying to a question, Overseas Indian Affairs Minister Vayalar Ravi informed the House that an estimated 50,000 to 1,50,000 workers have returned to India as result of the delay in execution of projects due to economic slowdown and recession in the UAE."

Even our immigration computers are reduced to making approximations. Apparently, we can't tell how many Indian workers returned from UAE with anymore precision than "between 50,000 and 150,000." Unbelievable!



http://www.ndtv.com/new...ae_due_to_recession.php
Augustus AAA
Pune, India
Jul 08, 2009 12:00 AM
134
Jews are Christians? VIKRAM CHANDRA

NO Jews are NOT Christians. But Jesus propounded Christianity specifically only for Jews. Any one who is NOT a decedent from any of the Jewish Tribe converting to Christianity will NOT attain salvation through Jesus. There were 12 Jewish Tribes when they left Egypt on exodus lead by Moses-1.Reuben 2.Simeon 3. Judah 4. Zebulun 5. Issachar 6. Gad 7. Asher 8. Naphtali 9 Dan 10 Manasseh 11. Ephraim 12. Benjamine. Levi, the tribe of Moses is not included in 12 tribe. They were to be priest of Jewsish Tribe.
Akil
Bangalore, India
Jul 08, 2009 12:00 AM
133
>>Jews are Christians?

They are. Brinjals and zippers are also included in just for good measures. As long as our thinking and communicating is cursed with gross approximations rather than precision, anything can be anything we want it to be!
Augustus AAA
Pune, India
Jul 08, 2009 12:00 AM
132
>>Over the years arundati roy write up have been the sane she is frozen in a time frame

So, is she condemned to sanity forever?
Augustus AAA
Pune, India
Jul 08, 2009 12:00 AM
131
A look at any of arunditi article reminds me of the Ghalibs masterpiece "qasid ke ahate ahate khat eq aur likhu .mae jaanta hu ki who kya likhange jawab mae [before the postman comes with the reply let me write a letter for i know what shall be the reply] Over the years arundati roy write up have been the sane she is frozen in a time frame
aditya chopra
chandigarh, India
Jul 08, 2009 12:00 AM
130
Akil,

Jews are Christians?
vikram chandra
Visakhapatnam, India
Jul 08, 2009 12:00 AM
129
AUGUSTUS AAA, PUNE

Not convinced that Christianity was only mend for JEWS. Here are more statements from Bible:-

1-- ACTs 11/19- Antioch- message only to Jews-
2-- ACT 13/5 - Cyprus- proclaim word of God at Synagogues.
3-- ACT 14/1 Iconium- Paul address at Synagogues to Jews and Gentiles
4-- ACT 28/17-20. Paul tell the leaders of Jews that he does everything for the hope of Israel.
5--ACT 16/3. Paul circumcises Silas (father Greek, mother Jew) so that he can accompany Paul into Jewish settlement.
6-- James 1.Greetings to the twelve tribes scattered among the nations (Jews).
7--ACTS 28/17. Paul reaches Rome. Calls the leaders of Jews.
Romans1/16 P. Paul – gospel first for the Jews then for the Gentile.
Akil
Bangalore, India
Jul 08, 2009 12:00 AM
128
Varun ... I am not implying that attempts to break the hold of "caste" on us were not there. Most consider, Buddha, as one of the best known earliest attempts to break the shackles of caste.

However, it does appear, including Buddhas efforts, that most attempts essentially failed as the impact was limited, if at all.

Caste induced heirarchical mindset has quite a hold on us, even today. Of course, in rural India it is lot more and probably uglier.

There is a churn going on for sure. The question I keep wondering is whether it is just "reversals and churning" within the same mindset or our heirarchical mindset is itself being chipped away.
Arun Maheshwari
Bangalore, India
Jul 08, 2009 12:00 AM
127
I am surprised why no one is questioning our ‘ divide & rule govt’ as to why should the women folks have differential slab for income tax than their male counter parts?

In our country, even now, it is a common knowledge that it is mostly the male who is the bread earner for the family and has umpteen other responsibilities for children.Therefore logically a man deserves that extra benefit rather than a woman. This reverse discrimination is certainly overstatement of equality principles. Women also could be sole bread earners but more often they are supplementary to family income.

When constitution says all are equal it should be so by all means. To give special preference based on caste or sex or religion is not only self contradiction of the basic tenets but also bad in practice and taste.

In this regard our constitution is peculiar. No doubt it has clauses to ensure equality of all but they come with riders!! The sub clauses are stronger than the main clauses. If the main clause says ‘all are equal’ the sub clause says ‘some are more equal’!!
And the force of the latter only prevails to perpetuate discrimination, whatever may be the end aim. This is sheer opportunism sans any sound principles. I consider our rag tag constitution a mere big wish list only rather than real character moulding instrument for a lasting change in the society. Any wonder people behave the way the behave.
sandilya
Chennai, India
Jul 08, 2009 12:00 AM
126
"Were those who built the great temples like Angkor Vat mere couln't-care-less slobs?"

No ... but they were Cambodian and not Indian. Please give the Khmer people their due. they were influenced by Hinduism deeply but were Khmer nonetheless.

--"Hindu scriptures also contain injunctions to action. You don't read, otherwise I would ask you to look at the Gita, Hinduism's most influential text. It idolises ACTION. "

And you are suggesting we should be proud to be an aggressive people ?! What has martial aggression got to do with the human development index ?!

--"What worries me about India is not Hinduism's failings - because these can change - but the threat of increasing Muslim numbers and inevitable Muslim insurgency. That is what may well destroy India. "

Ignorance they say is bliss. If anything, Muslim 'numbers' (population) is actually decreasing along with their standard of living thanks to an impotent Indian socio-political climate. What should really worry you about India is our propensity to follow a Western growth model that essentially embeds greed and hyper-capitalism into our system while further polarizing incomes.

"The West only acquired clean cities when it became fully developed economically."

Finally an ounce of sense from the normally deranged rant.
Reddy
Bangalore, India
Jul 08, 2009 12:00 AM
125
"The more the Vedic contribution is to Hinduism, the more "foreign" or imported and less "Indian" (whatever that means) it becomes. That creates a big crisis for Hindutva's chauvinism, the life-blood of their political movement. "

This was exactly my point in a previous post. Political Hinduism desperately needs a lifeblood to survive and they will bend any theory to fit their sallow worldview.

--"For now, their problem lies in chauvinism, failure to accomodate and supremacist attitude."

True and thats just the beginning of the list !

--satyadeep-banito--"If Aryans have come from the west or 'No Mans's Lands'then the Dravidians can also be said to have come come from that dark continent Africa as they too have resemblance with the African people and many of those similarities like dark skin,short stature,curly hair,thick lips etc etc."

If you cant research before you post you dont deserve a reply.
Reddy
Bangalore, India
Jul 08, 2009 12:00 AM
124
"I think a famous Indus Valley seal found showing a yogi in an ithyphallic position surrounded by animals could be Shiva or a pre-Shiva type figure."

Like Shiva, many other deities are pre-vedic in India. Maybe nature worship is what the invaders/migrants brought with them.
vikram chandra
Visakhapatnam, India
Jul 08, 2009 12:00 AM
123
"The problem for most Hindutva types"

For now, their problem lies in chauvinism, failure to accomodate and supremacist attitude. I don't think contribution of vedic people to Hinduism is their main worry. These people after all, if they are foreign, are said to come from central asia, which is known for nomadic tribes and a civilization vacuum. The place is hardly civilized or vedic.
vikram chandra
Visakhapatnam, India
Jul 08, 2009 12:00 AM
122
>>Im not sure what elements of Hindu culture you are referring to but its possible that Vedic/Hindu culture absorbed these elements from the existing indigenous culture.

I think a famous Indus Valley seal found showing a yogi in an ithyphallic position surrounded by animals could be Shiva or a pre-Shiva type figure. If so, then that would be one element of Indus Valley culture that was grafted onto the Vedic religion brought into India by immigrants.

The problem for most Hindutva types is the central pillar of their faith gets very shaky. If Hinduism was an amalgam of Vedic religion of the immigrants and pre-existing Indus Valley religion, then what are the relative contributions? The more the Vedic contribution is to Hinduism, the more "foreign" or imported and less "Indian" (whatever that means) it becomes. That creates a big crisis for Hindutva's chauvinism, the life-blood of their political movement.
Augustus AAA
Pune, India
Jul 08, 2009 12:00 AM
121
>>Whether Vedic people were Aryan or not is less important than the fact that Hinduism or at least its basic tenets were introduced into Indian culture around 1500 B.C.

You can see that the Vedic pantheon had become well developed by 1500 BC because in the treaty between a Mittani king and Hittite king, four gods were invoked as witnesses to it. They were Mitra, Varuna, Indra, and Nasatya. All this happened well outside India proper where there were written records. However, there are no corresponding civil records in India other than Rig Veda which wasn't reduced to writing probably around 6th century BC.
Augustus AAA
Pune, India
Jul 08, 2009 12:00 AM
120
South Indian bhramins believe that they were the first people to write vedas. Don't know how far that is true.

One would assume that India had quite a few people dating back 5000 years or before, who had a culture and a civilization, that got modified each time some people joined in, aryans or whatever, and mixed with the local culture, adding their own flavor. Like how chicken biryani came into being.
vikram chandra
Visakhapatnam, India
Jul 08, 2009 12:00 AM
119
>>It is rather futile to debate seriously with a person of such low mental calibre as yourself

I confess to be a micro-pebble next to your mega-mentalness.

>>Hinduism has plenty of faults, but suggesting India's answer is Christianity is merely an exhibition of intellectual puerility.

I haven't made any suggestions...merely analyzing. But your intellectual insecurity is showing through.

>>You go all out to make your tortuous case for Christianity's redemptive role. But actual history does not show Christianity redeemed anything.

Thus Spaketh Iqbalzthustra?

>>To the Graeco-Roman world it came as a primitivising, totalitarianly monotheistic Middle Eastern cult that destroyed the sophisticated intellectual life of the polytheistic, tolerant classical world.

How could something sophisticated be destroyed by something primitive when military force wasn't in the equation?

>>In short, the world only began to make progress when Christianity was forced to take a back seat.

whatever makes you sleep peacefully at night...

>>The original Christ was so far from being a social reformer that he did not even oppose slavery. Progress made Christianity move towards shaking off its barabric traits - so far from Christianity enabling progress.

Shall I sing you a lullaby as you drift off to dreamland?

>>Hinduism is passive you say? To start with, Christianity, too, has had its passive side.

Can't wait for you to display your exegetical skills...

>>Do you EVER read the Bible?

As an illiterate, I'll wait for you to read it to me.

>>If you ever do, you will see in the Gospels that Jesus tells his followrs not to "take thought for the morrow, for the morrow will take care of itself". He tells them not to worry about what they will eat or wear, since the birds neither sow nor reap not weave yet they are doing fine.

So you take a sermonette about trusting God for providing essentials and not getting wrapped up in monomaniacal pursuit of them as passive? Even if that made sense in theory, did his followers and sit around waiting for essentials to fall into their lap?

>>DO YOU KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT CHRISTIANITY?

Teach me.

>>So Indian cities are dirty because of Hinduism? It takes a moron to reach such an oversimplifued conclusion.

I couldn't have said it better myself. Now, go look in the mirror to see who that moron is.

>>If you read a bit of Western history,

That comic book comes with pictures?

>>If Hidus were nothing but passive, why did their civlization make such vast material achievements? How could it spread throughout the Sub-continent and throughout South-east Asia? How could Hindus make such a hugely important invention as the zero?

You think passive people lay in bed all day and all night?

>>Hindu scriptures also contain injunctions to action. You don't read, otherwise I would ask you to look at the Gita, Hinduism's most influential text. It idolises ACTION.

But if action is part of reality and all reality is illusion, then what does it matter?

>>Hinduism, unlike the Jewish religions like Islam and Christianity, is open and flexibke and undogmatic. Hinduism can learn from other faiths if need be and change.

After flexibility and undogmatic, what's left there to learn?

>>What worries me about India is not Hinduism's failings - because these can change - but the threat of increasing Muslim numbers and inevitable Muslim insurgency.

as inevitable as your Muslim fixation....
Augustus AAA
Pune, India
Jul 08, 2009 12:00 AM
118
a few typos below
Iqbal Z
Pune, India
Jul 08, 2009 12:00 AM
117
AUGUSTUS:

Sorry for the typos in the previous message.

It is rather futile to debate seriously with a person of such low mental calibre as yourself - a vulgar biblical fundamentalist who thinks Eve came from Adam's rib, ye gods.

Hinduism has plenty of faults, but suggesting India's answer is Christianity is merely an exhibition of intellectual puerility.

You go all out to make your tortuous case for Christianity's redemptive role. But actual history does not show Christianity redeemed anything.

To the Graeco-Roman world it came as a primitivising, totalitarianly monotheistic Middle Eastern cult that destroyed the sophisticated intellectual life of the polytheistic, tolerant classical world. It took centuries for the West to reconnect with the intellectual heritage of the Graeco-Roman world and begin to make progress again.

In short, the world only began to make progress when Christianity was forced to take a back seat.

The original Christ was so far from being a social reformer that he did not even oppose slavery. Progress made Christianity move towards shaking off its barabric traits - so far from Christianity enabling progress.

Hinduism is passive you say? To start with, Christianity, too, has had its passive side.

Do you EVER read the Bible? If you ever do, you will see in the Gospels that Jesus tells his followrs not to "take thought for the morrow, for the morrow will take care of itself". He tells them not to worry about what they will eat or wear, since the birds neither sow nor reap not weave yet they are doing fine. He told them his kingdom was not of this world. How is all that for unworldliness and passive indifference to what happens in the real world? Christainity has a huge history of monasticism.

DO YOU KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT CHRISTIANITY?

So Indian cities are dirty because of Hinduism? It takes a moron to reach such an oversimplifued conclusion. If you read a bit of Western history, you will know that until the Twntieth Century, these cities were stinking hells strewn with garbage and running with sewage in open drains. The West only acquired clean cities when it became fully developed economically. Christianity had nothing to do with it. India still has some way to go to become economically modern. Until then, Indian cities will stink.

If Hidus were nothing but passive, why did their civlization make such vast material achievements? How could it spread throughout the Sub-continent and throughout South-east Asia? How could Hindus make such a hugely important invention as the zero?

Hindu scriptures also contain injunctions to action. You don't read, otherwise I would ask you to look at the Gita, Hinduism's most influential text. It idolises ACTION.

Hinduism, unlike the Jewish religions like Islam and Christianity, is open and flexibke and undogmatic. Hinduism can learn from other faiths if need be and change.

What worries me about India is not Hinduism's failings - because these can change - but the threat of increasing Muslim numbers and inevitable Muslim insurgency. That is what may well destroy India.
Iqbal Z
Pune, India
Jul 08, 2009 12:00 AM
116
AUGUSTUS:

Hinduism passive?

Then what about its huge material achievements?

Were those who built the great temples like Angkor Vat mere couln't-care-less slobs?

Indian cities dirty because of Hinduism? Have yiu read about hiw filthy Western cities were unil the Twentieth century? How come Christianity waited so long to clean them?

You are an ignoramus.
Iqbal Z
Pune, India
Jul 08, 2009 12:00 AM
115
" It has been shown that there are elements of the Hindu culture in the Harappan civilisation, which goes back beyond 2500 BCE. "

Im not sure what elements of Hindu culture you are referring to but its possible that Vedic/Hindu culture absorbed these elements from the existing indigenous culture.

At this point there is clearly a lot of speculation. There are close to 2000 or more pre-historic sites located all along the mythic Saraswati River. While the existence of the mythic Saraswati River has been shown to be true (satellite images of the dry river bed), there is no connection established so far with Hindu or Vedic culture. Its easy to speculate and manipulate these new discoveries to shoe-horn politicized Hindutva ideology, which a host of Hindutva 'scholars' have done already. But there is no evidence to substantiate it.
Reddy
Bangalore, India
Jul 08, 2009 12:00 AM
114
"The Hindutvadis attempt to claim a continuously Hindu dominated India from time immemorial falls flat on its face under scrutiny. Whether Vedic people were Aryan or not is less important than the fact that Hinduism or at least its basic tenets were introduced into Indian culture around 1500 B.C."

But why should Hindu( what we understand as the religion of Hinduism) be associated solely with the Vedas and the introduction of the Vedas, reputedly, circa 1500 BCE? It has been shown that there are elements of the Hindu culture in the Harappan civilisation, which goes back beyond 2500 BCE.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Jul 08, 2009 12:00 AM
113
Aug -- " But the ideology of Varna (and its caste progeny) came with the Vedic immigrants and their sacred literature. Specifically, Rig Veda that was mostly likely completed in its oral form around 1500 B.C."

There is a ton of evidence to support this theory. The Hindutvadis attempt to claim a continuously Hindu dominated India from time immemorial falls flat on its face under scrutiny. Whether Vedic people were Aryan or not is less important than the fact that Hinduism or at least its basic tenets were introduced into Indian culture around 1500 B.C.
Reddy
Bangalore, India
Jul 07, 2009 12:00 AM
112
"Reddy, good drama with Augustus!
Keep it up !! "

There is no drama. I agree with Augustus on most things. Maybe you should read his posts in detail and think about it. After all that is the intent of a discussion forum. Its too bad that a single detailed post by Augustus is worth more than all the meaningless drivel we are forced to endure by Hindutva hordes (chaddies) on the forum.
Reddy
Bangalore, India
Jul 07, 2009 12:00 AM
111
Arun, are you suggesting that this division or arrangement of society was put in place determinedly by a group of people back in 1500 BCE, and then continued practically uninterrupted until the present; that there were no variations, dynamism, questioning, reform, quirks, exceptions at any time, that this was an institution purely linear and static?
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Jul 07, 2009 12:00 AM
110
>>I guess it is safe to assume that caste came about as a solution to manage a very complex diverse society.

Do we have any historical evidence that our society was diverse and complex prior to the caste solution? There is some evidence at Harappa/Mohenjadaro with its sophisticated civilization of at most 35,000 people that had “servants’ quarters” outside the protective walls. But the ideology of Varna (and its caste progeny) came with the Vedic immigrants and their sacred literature. Specifically, Rig Veda that was mostly likely completed in its oral form around 1500 B.C.

>>At the time this solution was put in place, one has to give credit to the architects, as the alternative solutions then in vogue to deal with diversity was to essentially decimate it quite ruthlessly.

Until somebody figured out the danger of rebellion by conquered people is less than the profit from enslaving them. Who would have thought that slavery was a sign of progress?
Augustus AAA
Pune, India
Jul 07, 2009 12:00 AM
109
>>Why are you perturbed about Hindus achieving salvation???

I am analyzing how their religious concepts could potentially affect their thinking and thus their behaviour…specifically, their civic behavior. Whether they achieve salvation is their business.

>>Leave that to the Hindus.

Whom else would I leave it to?

>>Why don't you worry about yourself?

You mean you are not going to worry about me? Damn it, I thought I could offload worrying about myself to you.

>>Are you of Jewish descend that you will achieve salvation in your religion???

You think that might do the trick?

>>Matthew 10/5. These 12 Jesus sent out with following instructions "Do NOT go among the Gentiles or enter any town of Samaritans. Go gather the lost sheep of Israel".
>>Matthew 10/6 As you go, preach this message: :The kingdom of GOD is near"
>>Clearly Jesus wanted Christianity to be spread "only" amongst the "Jewish Tribes" and NOT amongst Non- Jews (Gentiles and Samaritans). The gospel was only for "the lost sheep of Israel"- and the lost sheep of ISRAEL are the JEWS.

Your textual exegesis is noted. We’ll see if there are any takers.

>>So all Non-Jews who have converted to Christianity will never attain salvation. Israel has developed DNA fingerprinting technique to identify the lost tribes of JEWS (lost during Exodus from Egypt) and recently one tribe from Mizoram has been identified as "one amongst the lost tribe of Israel" and have been allowed to emigrate to Israel. So it is time DNA test be conducted by "vocal critic of Hindu salvation" to confirm the "ancestral gene pool" and worry about their salvation than about Hindus.

If so, do your exegetical skills also conclude the chaddis might get a waiver for their unwavering support of Israel even if their understanding of the issues doesn’t extend beyond the fortune cookie maxim, “the enemy of my enemy is my friend”?
Augustus AAA
Pune, India
Jul 07, 2009 12:00 AM
108
>> I'm thinking if it was given as a consolation to an Indian author...but then, why her???

just a theory.......may be you were too busy?
Augustus AAA
Pune, India
Jul 07, 2009 12:00 AM
107
oh..and btw...I read the first 2 lines and I can swear by her Christian God that I know what the rest of her nonsense is about. I'm sure that most people here who know about her would have also treated her article with the contempt and disdain it deserves. Atleast, she would come up with innovative subjects - one would think. But then, if she did, she would have won another award (even if consolation)!
Ashwin
Jersey City, United States
Jul 07, 2009 12:00 AM
106
blah blah blah blah blah...Suzanna Roy would do a lot of good to people if she stops her non stop nonsense. We can find a way to deal with all the other atrocities in the world. But the unpleasantness that she causes with her narrow vision of the world is just too much to handle. I really wonder how she won the Booker Prize. I'm thinking if it was given as a consolation to an Indian author...but then, why her???
Ashwin
Jersey City, United States
Jul 07, 2009 12:00 AM
105
Reddy, good drama with Augustus!
Keep it up !!
prometheus
kolkata, India
Jul 07, 2009 12:00 AM
104
Augustus writes ... "But caste divisiveness and inequality didn’t fall into our laps out of thin air. They are the logical implications of various suppositions and inferences."

I guess it is safe to assume that caste came about as a solution to manage a very complex diverse society. At the time this solution was put in place, one has to give credit to the architects, as the alternative solutions then in vogue to deal with diversity was to essentially decimate it quite ruthlessly, Unfortunately, it also had severe side affects and I for one at least believe much of what ails us today are logical extensions of organizing humans the way we did. The idea of organizing cogs connected by well defined interfaces and protocols works well for machines where the deteoriation is physical and replaceable. For humans, the deteoriation is well beyond the physical and not very replaceable.

As related to democracy. We have done a fair job of crossing the first hurdle of "by and large free and fair elections". No mean accomplishment given what you see in the rest of the "developing world" which by no means is as diverse as us but I do think in this the competitive nature of "caste" without the constraint of "accept your station in life" helped as well as a ritualistic mindset (after all elections in some sense are rituals and I don't know of anyone better than us at rituals).

The next hurdle of democracy and one most important is "rule of law". Ironically, in this it is very possible that the very "caste oriented" mindset that helped us with the first step might come in the way. For "rule of law" we do need a certain level eglatarianism and unfortunately caste induced heirarchical mindset by and large opposes this. For "rule of law", most must agree that it must be implementable and be actually implemented for the "lowest of the low" and only then can all of society benefit from it. There in lies the rub.

However, as I often mentioned on this forum, I am hopeful that the processes of democracy, industralization and urbanization will probably get us there.

To me democracy is a process - it can only be improved by practicising it. Theory is good but of limited value and no substitute for practice.

Also, the good in us, so to speak the "milk of human goodness and kindness", flows thru concentric circles starting with family, extended family, caste, language, region, religion, etc. In a predominantly rural society this probably worked OK as most other humans, one interacted with were "caste aligned" and for inter-caste a strict interface and protocol defined that. There is a challenge caused by this as we transition into increasing urbanization - since in todays world of conspicous consumption with the old model very little of the "milk" is left past "extended family" (possibly caste).

Personally, as pessimistic as everyday might feel about "can we improve", I tend to believe in democracy as a catalytic mechanism, inherent in which is the seed of its own success OR may be Ms. Arundhati is right and it is about my own "myopia".

As regards, Ms. Arundhati, whether one agrees with her or not, I am for one glad she exists. Just like it is good for the US soul that a "Noam Chomsky" exist, so it is for us. It helps us not get too narcisstic (or neurotic) :-). Somebody should be there to slap us when we get too caught up in our "greatness" (past, present or future).
Arun Maheshwari
Bangalore, India
Jul 07, 2009 12:00 AM
103
AUGUSTUS AAA, PUNE

Why are you perturbed about Hindus achieving salvation??? Leave that to the Hindus. Why don't you worry about yourself??? Are you of Jewish descend that you will achieve salvation in your religion???

Matthew 10/5. These 12 Jesus sent out with following instructions "Do NOT go among the Gentiles or enter any town of Samaritans. Go gather the lost sheep of Israel".

Matthew 10/6 As you go, preach this message: :The kingdom of GOD is near"

Clearly Jesus wanted Christianity to be spread "only" amongst the "Jewish Tribes" and NOT amongst Non- Jews (Gentiles and Samaritans). The gospel was only for "the lost sheep of Israel"- and the lost sheep of ISRAEL are the JEWS.

So all Non-Jews who have converted to Christianity will never attain salvation. Israel has developed DNA fingerprinting technique to identify the lost tribes of JEWS (lost during Exodus from Egypt) and recently one tribe from Mizoram has been identified as "one amongst the lost tribe of Israel" and have been allowed to emigrate to Israel. So it is time DNA test be conducted by "vocal critic of Hindu salvation" to confirm the "ancestral gene pool" and worry about their salvation than about Hindus.



Akil
Bangalore, India
Jul 07, 2009 12:00 AM
102
Another year, another sub-par lengthy rant filled with no solutions. Nothing's changed with Arundhati Roy.
Like clockwork, another 14 page masterpiece (ahem). No solutions suggested, mere re-telling of world affairs as they are mixed with her own non-objective rants.
Gives people like Anwaar brief chances for mental mastrubation, and fundamental Hindus chance to spew.
Ninad Huilgol
Sunnyvale California, United States
Jul 07, 2009 12:00 AM
101
Vinodraj's posting made sense. Hinduism is capable of reforming and adapting to the times. Its lack of dogmatism and aggressiveness is one of its strengths.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Jul 07, 2009 12:00 AM
100
well, whichever system you come up, whatever you call it, whatever its slogans or philosophies or ideals, there will always be big money always trying to get its own way by simply buying up everything in its way. that's why here in the States, the financial industry gets bailed out, bcs it gave a ton of money, and the auto industry got no bailout, because they didn't give as much money to legislators, like this article in the LA times says: "The securities, banking and mortgage industries are among the biggest campaign contributors to both parties.Since 2002, the sector has contributed more than $1.1 billion to congressional candidates"
http://articles.latimes.../business/fi-polmoney23
Arul Francis
Clayton, California
Jul 07, 2009 12:00 AM
99
stopperbhai-buttplug-vinod-vinodraj ....
so is this your new avatar ?

Your post as usual is utterly meaningless and i cannot comprehend what you are saying. After the first sentence my brain exits.
Reddy
Bangalore, India
Jul 07, 2009 12:00 AM
98
yesterday in san francisco was the 75th anniversary of bloody thursday. jul 5 1934. showdown between ship companies vs unions fighting for better wages led by a man called harry bridges: "Harry Bridges, an Australian- born dock worker, became a leading union figure. The U.S. tried unsuccessfully four times to deport him as a communist. Bridges established the ILWU, and over the years negotiated contracts that brought good wages and protected jobs, even in the face of new technology that threatened those jobs."

http://www.pbs.org/news...-dec02/docks_09-19.html


http://en.wikipedia.org...y_Bridges#Legal_battles


a dock worker and a sailor, not a politician or an intellectual, brings dignity to working people in san francisco so they get better wages and can't be treated like semi-slaves the way they were formerly. but it's also bcs of the separation of powers. the INS, the exec branch, tried to get him deported 4 times. and 4 times the courts threw it out and sided with harry bridges. that court was impartial enforcing laws impartially. so that's how you get to a more just society.
Arul Francis
Clayton, California
Jul 07, 2009 12:00 AM
97
There is no point discussing Hinduism. It leads to nowhere.
vikram chandra
Visakhapatnam, India
Jul 07, 2009 12:00 AM
96
A -- "If personal salvation is defined as escaping earthly bonds (to merge with Brahman),"

If merging with a Brahman is what personal salvation is all about then i think personal salvation should be crushed into an amorphous mass and discarded like snort !!

---" I’d like to hear others’ perspective on it without the predictable defensive cliches."

Good luck with that !

--"And why would someone expend any significant intellectual energy in thinking about illusions?"

I agree. It runs counter to my rationalist thought process.

--" This “not getting one’s hands dirty” attitude carries over into broader civic functions that democracy depends on."

I agree. It certainly has to do with the inherent Caste based division of labor attitudes Hinduism has burdened us with.

Devika -- "Thank god for Arundhati Roy's outrage (and outlook, for giving her page space.) "
Yes ... and ill make sure ill convey your sentiments to my Aunt.
Reddy
Bangalore, India
Jul 06, 2009 12:00 AM
95
Part 1

>>However im confused with this contention - Hindus never develop healthy relationships etc because their religion promotes the attainment of personal salvation by 100% human effort?

If personal salvation is defined as escaping earthly bonds (to merge with Brahman), then earthly relationships must be included as part of those earthly bonds. So, when all efforts are directed toward escaping these bonds, wouldn’t you question, at least subconsciously, why relationships on earth should be anything more than contingent or provisional?

Iqbal’s contended all religions promote fatalism. I was pointing out some religions, for example Hinduism, make human actions central to achieving their personal salvation. That’s not at all fatalistic, at least in one sense.

>>What exactly ties attaining salvation with dysfunctional family relationships?

Not dysfunctional but ritualized. The intensity with which personal salvation is sought and the absence of a corporate component makes Hindu mindset individualistic with no relational concept embedded in its thought structure. Of course, different people are of different degrees of individualism. But I am trying to think though the implication of pushing the envelope on Hindu concepts to their theoretical max.

>>It seems like a sweeping generalization.

Of course it is. Just as Newtonian physics is a sweeping generalization that is contradicted by Einsteinian physics. Nevertheless, we make students learn Newtonian physics because it explains plenty though not everything. I am sure there are plenty of individual exceptions to my observations. But I am exploring how its religious concepts may impact the mindset, outlook and ultimately civic behaviour which matters the most in a democracy. I’d like to hear others’ perspective on it without the predictable defensive cliches.

>>Are you saying Hindus' relationship with their parents and spouses and kids are ritualized ? I guess i need to see something more specific to understand it.

I am wondering out loud if those relationships are seen as yet another occasion to fulfill one’s dharma to achieve personal salvation. If the entirety of one’s interaction with the god(s) is asking them for various boons, then there is no ideal relationship after which to mirror one’s family relationships and more broadly civic relationships. And if true, does that account for our anemic democracy?

>>I havent had the misfortune of mingling with fundamentalist dipsticks but most Hindus i know (including my family) are fairly normal by any standards. The same goes for all my Muslim, Christian, Buddhist, Jain and Catholic friends and family.

I have no doubt that is the case. I am, at this stage, thinking about the entirety of Hindu thought structure first before examining if our observations conform to it or not.
Augustus AAA
Pune, India
Jul 06, 2009 12:00 AM
94
Part 2

>>Hinduisms propensity to stick any available God in your face is definitely tedious to say the least but the universal concepts of Justice/Injustice and other such dichotomies as you put it are not unique to any religion i would think.

All I am saying is if Maya is an all-encompassing explanation of reality, there is no compulsion to think very hard about justice/injustice or beauty/ugly or freedom/slavery or kindness/cruelty or other dichotomies because they are all illusions. And why would someone expend any significant intellectual energy in thinking about illusions?

>>In my opinion Hinduisms greatest curse has always been the divisiveness of Caste and the inequality it propagates. I have no illusions about the horrors of Caste and how deeply it has affected the psyche of a vast section of the population.

But caste divisiveness and inequality didn’t fall into our laps out of thin air. They are the logical implications of various suppositions and inferences. In other words, they are symptoms of a deeper cause that I am struggling to think through, however inelegantly.

>>How does passivity negatively affect Democracy ?

We leave it to others to take care of problems. For example, take the street you live on. If others are using the street as a rubbish dump, try getting your neighbors either to donate money or volunteer to clean it up. Its not that you will not get cooperation but you will elicit outright hostility. It’s the “municipality’s job.” Why should they do it? You saying we live on the street and it shouldn’t be filthy until the municipality gets around to it, you have no chance of evoking action. There will always be a few who will give money but never get their hands dirty. This “not getting one’s hands dirty” attitude carries over into broader civic functions that democracy depends on.

>>In fact i dont believe Hindus are passive and the constant state of warfare for 3000 years of our history shows us to be no different from any other region with old civilizations.

I hope you are right. But I am exploring potential explanation for our systemic pathologies.
Augustus AAA
Pune, India
Jul 06, 2009 12:00 AM
93
Thank god for Arundhati Roy's outrage (and outlook, for giving her page space.)
Devika Narayan
Mumbai, India
Jul 06, 2009 12:00 AM
92
More bilge-water from this two-faced Commie hypocrite, who, having gotten a phoren 'award' for writing even more puerile bilge, now thinks she's The Expert- The Authority on everything, such that people must now endure her 'enlightened' rantings and ravings against free enterprise, the West and Hindus- not necessarily in that order.
No content with that, we must endure regurgitated crap about her lecture in Istanbul, where the lions-share of her denunciation, demonization and denigration was reserved exclusively for one group only- Hindus. Yessirree, she made it abundantly clear to everyone in Istanbul how much she hated Hindus and how totally pissed she was at the fact that Hindus were building schools, clinics, temples etc which catered to the needs of the lower-castes. And this is the same Commie dingbat who deigns enlighten us poor sods about her notion of 'democracy'?
Bodh
Springfield, United States
Jul 06, 2009 12:00 AM
91
right question to ask is communism hit with socalled intellectuals like Arundhati because it gives them vaccuous pleasure of chasing a dream where they are trying to make everyone equal fully knowing this is unnatual and unachievable and only gives rise to monsters like Stalin and Mao..
Anil
Toronto, Canada
Jul 06, 2009 12:00 AM
90
Reddy and Akil, well said. The fatalism, pessimism blah blah stereotype of Hinduism hasn't prevented Hindus from developing science, agriculture, governments, fighting wars( fortunately or unfortunately), engaging in trade, traveling the world. But let's look at it from the other end; if Hinduism per se is preventing the growth of true democracy and freedom, it stands to reason that those countries that are Christian are full of freedom, democracy, egalitarianism, compassion,dynamism and optimism, and that this has always been the case. One only has to look at examples such as Haiti, El Salvador, Guatemala, Dominican Republic, Honduras, some West African countries, Ethiopia and the Philippines, to realise that this is far from the reality. There are other factors besides religious doctrine or what is written in X-Holy Book, chapter 6, verse 8- that explain the success or lack thereof, of democracy around the world.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Jul 06, 2009 12:00 AM
89
AUGUSTUS AAA, PUNE

---Some religions promote 100% human effort to achieve personal salvation-----

There are some other religions which allow their followers to "sin to their hearts content" because somebody who was crucified 2000 years ago will take all those sin on HIM. "One sin or a million sin- how does it matter when some one else will take those on himself"

---So, the concepts of Justice/Injustice, Freedom/Tyranny and host of other dichotomies that propel other societies to action are absent in our society---

Is it the "concepts of Justice/Injustice, Freedom/Tyranny abundant in other societies" which propelled them to exterminate the original inhabitants of American, Australia, Newzeland etc???? Is it the same qualities which made them breed and trade the Blacks like animals in America and "snatch away" the children of Australian Aborigines to bring them up as "good Christians" ???????
Akil
Bangalore, India
Jul 06, 2009 12:00 AM
88
horror of say Rwanda, Sudan or the Congo, the Gujarat carnage----ANWAAR, DALLAS

How about adding AFPAK too, especially what PAKI ARMY is doing to indian muslims in their Promised Land.
Akil
Bangalore, India
Jul 06, 2009 12:00 AM
87
augustus ---"Not all religions promote fatalism. Some religions promote 100% human effort to achieve personal salvation while encouraging its devotees to escape earthly bonds. For example, keep your dharma or you’ll be back as a dog or a frog or something far worse….related to you. So, despite their nature worship, Hindus never develop healthy relationships either to the earth or others despite their mawkish public sentiments about family and caste. And even their most cherished relationships are ritualized and devoid of content. The rest of the world could go to hell for all they care. That's why Indian civic society is seriously malnourished.

In addition, Hinduism saddles its devotees with an impersonal god and a schoolboy philosophy of maya. Their god(s) don’t give a damn and everything else is an illusion. So, the concepts of Justice/Injustice, Freedom/Tyranny and host of other dichotomies that propel other societies to action are absent in our society. Because its worldview kills any motivation for change, Hindu mindset encourages passivity and affects democracy."

First off im atheist and am equally ambivalent about all religions. I respect all faiths equally for whatever comfort they can give their adherents.

However im confused with this contention - Hindus never develop healthy relationships etc because their religion promotes the attainment of personal salvation by 100% human effort ? What exactly ties attaining salvation with dysfunctional family relationships ? It seems like a sweeping generalization. Are you saying Hindus' relationship with their parents and spouses and kids are ritualized ? I guess i need to see something more specific to understand it. I havent had the misfortune of mingling with fundamentalist dipsticks but most Hindus i know (including my family) are fairly normal by any standards. The same goes for all my Muslim, Christian, Buddhist, Jain and Catholic friends and family.

Hinduisms propensity to stick any available God in your face is definitely tedious to say the least but the universal concepts of Justice/Injustice and other such dichotomies as you put it are not unique to any religion i would think. In my opinion Hinduisms greatest curse has always been the divisiveness of Caste and the inequality it propagates. I have no illusions about the horrors of Caste and how deeply it has affected the psyche of a vast section of the population.

How does passivity negatively affect Democracy ? In fact i dont believe Hindus are passive and the constant state of warfare for 3000 years of our history shows us to be no different from any other region with old civilizations.
Reddy
Bangalore, India
Jul 06, 2009 12:00 AM
86
Reddy
Bangalore, India
Jul 06, 2009 12:00 AM
85
>>Sorry ... i have first dibs. Im not willing to give up my Aunt yet.

I'll flip you for her....
Augustus AAA
Pune, India
Jul 06, 2009 12:00 AM
84
"She's my aunt too...As far as aunts go, she's community property. "

Sorry ... i have first dibs. Im not willing to give up my Aunt yet.
Reddy
Bangalore, India
Jul 06, 2009 12:00 AM
83
Vinod,

I have humored you enough for one day. Come back tomorrow.
Anwaar
Dallas, United States
Jul 06, 2009 12:00 AM
82
>>I thought she was Reddy's aunt!

She's my aunt too...As far as aunts go, she's community property.
Augustus AAA
Pune, India
Jul 06, 2009 12:00 AM
81
Vinod,

>> Your aunt Arundathi Roy ....

My aunt? I thought she was Reddy's aunt!

>> the conspiracy was hatched to burn the Hindus alive at Godhra.

That is a total lie.

Anwaar
Dallas, United States
Jul 06, 2009 12:00 AM
80
Vinod,

>> Snakes can be charmed only when its fangs are removed.

Was I speaking of charming snakes? Can you read?
Anwaar
Dallas, United States
Jul 06, 2009 12:00 AM
79
>>Roy's article is about Democracy in India (or lack of it) and not about Hinduism.

True. However, Hinduism forms our most fundamental cultural attitudes and outlook regardless of religion. Therefore, it affects our perception, process and practice of democracy.

>>What the heck are you trying to say?

I meant,

"What are the leading candidates to replace democracy with that will consider carefully the long-run impact of our decisions on our posterity?"

Congratulations, even a broken clock is right twice a day.

Naipaul was a serious writer with trenchant observations on our society. His interest in party politics and his dementia arose about the same time. Unlike you, I can critically appreciate his intellectual work without confusing it with his post-dementia politics. You, on the other hand, assume his literary genius transfers to his party politics.

Your insistence that Roy must "dismay" her side as an acid test shows you are an analytical cropper.

This inability shows up in comparing religions where you get even the basic facts wrong. Not all religions promote fatalism. Some religions promote 100% human effort to achieve personal salvation while encouraging its devotees to escape earthly bonds. For example, keep your dharma or you’ll be back as a dog or a frog or something far worse….related to you. So, despite their nature worship, Hindus never develop healthy relationships either to the earth or others despite their mawkish public sentiments about family and caste. And even their most cherished relationships are ritualized and devoid of content. The rest of the world could go to hell for all they care. That's why Indian civic society is seriously malnourished.

In addition, Hinduism saddles its devotees with an impersonal god and a schoolboy philosophy of maya. Their god(s) don’t give a damn and everything else is an illusion. So, the concepts of Justice/Injustice, Freedom/Tyranny and host of other dichotomies that propel other societies to action are absent in our society. Because its worldview kills any motivation for change, Hindu mindset encourages passivity and affects democracy.

On the other hand, Christianity explains cruelties and injustices as the temporal effects of sin. Its theme of sin, redemption, reconciliation and new life impacts their worldview and how they think they ought to relate to others (even if they aren’t consistent). Unlike Hinduism's hedging of "you might," Christianity promises, "you will." And it reorients its devotee’s relationship not just to the eternal and the spiritual but also to the temporal and terrestrial. So, their heaven starts here and now (to be completed at their physical death) even though they are under no illusion of human perfectibility.

India's cultural inability or unwillingness to evaluate critically the competing claims of truth is the cause for its endemic chaos, lawlessness and anemic democracy. Lack of a social responsibility ethos is the reason behind its high-grade, refined, institutional cruelty and violence sanctioned by the very gods themselves.

If in the 50s or 60s, had Hindus paid attention to literacy, you would be crying even more. Hinduism has no interest in mass literacy or education. Why should “they” aspire to anything? Don't “they” know "their" station in life? “They” exist to serve us…..some of their less offensive unexpressed thoughts go. Against that, a functional democracy has no chance. That’s why we have a Potemkin version.
Augustus AAA
Pune, India
Jul 06, 2009 12:00 AM
78
Iqbal Z,

>> backing with all his vicious venom the ferocious Islamist killers.

You may be trying to be a provocateur, but all you are doing is being a bore. Even snakes become boring when they are defanged.

Anwaar
Dallas, United States
Jul 06, 2009 12:00 AM
77
Ms.Roy's tirade is against divisive politics, communal politics, the political power wielded by the moneyed classes, and the powerlessness of the Adivasis and India's poorest, most vulnerable people. Such factors are a blemish on our democracy. Irrespective of whether we have solutions and irrespective of whether we agree with her or not, it is good to have such points brought out in the open and discussed.
Anwaar
Dallas, United States
Jul 06, 2009 12:00 AM
76
ANWAAR is off again, prattling about "secularism" for Muslims in INDIA - right after backing with all his vicious venom the ferocious Islamist killers known as the Afghan mujahedin.....(See the discussion string under the Outlook article "Reinventing Pakistan").

Sheer barbaric hypocricsy can go no further.
Iqbal Z
Pune, India
Jul 06, 2009 12:00 AM
75
In February 2002, following the burning of a train coach in which 58 Hindu pilgrims returning from Ayodhya were burned alive, the BJP government in Gujarat, led by chief minister Narendra Modi, presided over a carefully planned genocide of Muslims in the state. The Islamophobia generated all over the world by the September 11, 2001, attacks put the wind in their sails. The machinery of the state of Gujarat stood by and watched while more than 2,000 people were massacred. Gujarat has always been a communally tense state. There had been riots before. But this was not a riot. It was a genocidal massacre, and though the number of victims was insignificant compared to the horror of say Rwanda, Sudan or the Congo, the Gujarat carnage was designed as a public spectacle whose aims were unmistakable. It was a public warning to Muslim citizens from the government of the world's favourite democracy."

This is a superb way to place the Gujarat massacre in a larger context and to draw inferences from it which, though obvious to many, were seldom articulated.
Anwaar
Dallas, United States
Jul 06, 2009 12:00 AM
74
"Hindu communalism and nuclear nationalism, like corporate globalisation, have vaulted over the stated ideologies of political parties. The venom has been injected straight into our bloodstream. It's there now—in all its violence and banality—for us to deal with in our daily lives, regardless of whether the government at the centre calls itself 'secular' or not."

Communalism persists in our social fabric irrespective of whether the government is run by the BJP or the Congress at the center or in a given state. It has become part of our national ethos.


Anwaar
Dallas, United States
Jul 06, 2009 12:00 AM
73
buttplug -- "will naturally draw any one to conclude that your aunt Arundathi Roy is not what she appears to the eyes."

Arundhati is my aunt ?! Wow ! Who would have guessed it ? Intelligence runs in my family.
Reddy
Bangalore, India
Jul 06, 2009 12:00 AM
72
"A couple of typos below. "

Typos are the least of your problems. As always your only contribution is to attempt to convert any discussion into a Hindu-Muslim conflict. Roy's article is about Democracy in India (or lack of it) and not about Hinduism.
Reddy
Bangalore, India
Jul 06, 2009 12:00 AM
71
A couple of typos below.

Also, one sentence should actually read:

"It is so refreshingly different from and freer than the fanatical Jewish faiths like Islam and Christianity, with their dour and dogmatic monotheism."
Iqbal Z
Pune, India
Jul 06, 2009 12:00 AM
70
manish -- "Managed to 'raise their collective standard of living' my foot!"
--"I for one don't believe in the Chinese economy revivng again or 17% growth repeating. They built a house of cards depending on export of cheap goods to American consumers, who in their turn, plastic card in hand, thought it helluva party.
American economy is unlikely to regain supremacy in foreseeable future & for that matter nor the Chinese. It so happens we in India are better equipped to take off."

Manish ... i do not condone Chinese economic practices nor do i believe their economy will survive their current growth pattern in the long run. In fact i find it contemptible that the State run Chinese capitalist enterprises essentially use cheap Chinese slave labor to supply the worlds goods. Further i do not nor ever have advocated the Chinese model of growth for India.
I was merely stating you cannot ignore the fact that however disproportionate the growth in China is, they have definitely managed to feed a lot more people now than 20 years ago. They have also managed to make primary education a lot more accessible. You are definitely right in that given the explosive growth of their economy they clearly havent done enough to trickle the wealth down. But anyone who believes the Chinese are communists or socialists are kidding themselves.

The Chinese economy is now fully integrated with the American economy and the wily Americans literally have them by their unmentionables (nuts) and yes, they will suffer the consequences.

Reddy
Bangalore, India
Jul 06, 2009 12:00 AM
69
AUGUSTUS AAA:

So you tried with all your feeble might to write a coherent piece.....Well done, you fellow of paltry gifts !

However, you could not help stumbling into a grammatical snafu. You write:

"What are the leading candidates to replace democracy to consider carefully the long-run impact of our decisions on our posterity?"

What the heck are you trying to say? Do you mean, "What are the ideas of the leading candidates to replace democracy about our future?" I am guessing so on the basis of what follows your idiotic question.

Still, you did try to do a bit of serious writing. It's a start.

Writers like Roy tell us nothing new. The trouble with them is an easy choice of enemy - "the Hindus" - and a complete inability to see or say the things that might dismay one's own side.

Naipaul, for all his exaggeration, is great because as a writer, by contrast, he is HONEST: a staunch Hindu nationalist, he does not hesitate to denounce Hindu vices and hurt Hindu sentiments. Good for him.

People like Roy are condemned to mediocrity because they dare not dismay their own side.

India's troubles do spring from fatalism as you say; but it should be added that fatalism is not unique to India. Not only Hinduism, but all religions promote fatalism by telling us we depend on the Big Guy in the Sky, in the end, not on our human effort.

Christianity, for instance, is at one crucial level very Hindu: faced with the problem of explaining the incredible cruelties and injustices of a supposed God-made world, it can do no better than fall back on the idea that this is God's inscrutable will. That is fatalism for you.

Indeed, the old-style Hindu holds out slightly more "hopeful" propects, by suggesting that if you fulfill your duties in this life you "might" be reincarnated to a better status next time.

Me, I don't take stock in all these vulgar brands of despair and false hope. Humans have to do what they can. God, if He is there, doesn't care.

India IS a free country, by and large. It does have freedom of speech and free elections. You fail to admit that, with your usual petty-minded determination to deny Hindus all credit.

Because Hinduism does deserve a lot of credit, as the majority culture, for India's ability to have a democracy, unlike the Muslim lands. It is a religion with many Gods, believing truth comes in many forms and there is no single doctrine that can be held to be correct. It is so refreshingly different and freer than the fanatical Jewish faiths like Islam and Christianity, with their dour and dogmatic monotheism. This freedom of spirit makes the idea of debate and disagreement far easier for the Hindu to accept than Muslims.

This is a great plus of Hinduism.

But all the same, I feel the Hindus may have left things too late. In the 1950s and 60's, if attention had been paid to ending illiteracy, it would have made a huge positive difference today. It would have reduced the birthrate and created a more aware electorate. This was one big thing for India Nehru could have done and did not.

Now it amy be too late. I fear with every year Muslim extremist attacks will increase, tie down the Army and in the end crack the state. It's a grim propect.
Iqbal Z
Pune, India
Jul 06, 2009 12:00 AM
68
iqbal-z to kumar -- "Where there is a Hindu-Muslim conflict, you tedious imbecile, you cannot condemn the sins of one side without condemning the sins of the other side. Got that into your thick skull? "

This is classic. You have no arguments but hate-filled rhetoric. Instead of peppering your speech with moronic ramblings, why not stick with the topic ? Oh ok ... sorry .. i keep forgetting ... you have nothing worthwhile to say.
Reddy
Bangalore, India
Jul 05, 2009 12:00 AM
67
"For every action there is an equal and opposite criticism"."

Problem with these jerks is that they have heard of Newton's second law ( heard , not studied ), they have not heard or read another of Newton's law which is greater the mass , greater the force needed to move it. Newton's third law.

These massive guys are sitting on their massive asses with their massive ignorumus & lot of force will be required to move them to the understanding that it's not about particular place or people.

Be happy with your prejudices , Akil.
MANISH BANERJEE
KOLKATA, India
Jul 05, 2009 12:00 AM
66
Arundhati, where is Pakistan in your Mumbai attack proposition? Have you lost it? C'mon, they were talking and killing cold-bloodedly as per the instruction of their mentors. When India is fighting with all evidences and clues, you are talking about failing light of democracy using Mumbai Attack as one of the energizers of your story! Your searchlight needs critical adjustments.
prometheus
kolkata, India
Jul 05, 2009 12:00 AM
65
"If there are faults better find them" MANISH BANERJEE KOLKATA

Criticism without action is the most important characteristics of people who live in KOLKATA and "HO BE NA" the permanent war (BANDH) cry. Go on- crticise to your hearts content as it disprove the dictum "For every action there is an equal and opposite criticism". KOLKATAns can criticise without any "action" and the plight of KOLKATA proves it.
Akil
Bangalore, India
Jul 05, 2009 12:00 AM
64
>>That's where people like Roy helps.

Roy helps enormously in India. If anything, the country needs more people like her.

>>One need not take Roy the whole hog;

I am criticizing this particular essay rather than her whole being.

>>neither it's within your power to make democracy pristine virigin.

I think at this stage in our country's development, if we can make democracy into a good-hearted hooker, that would be an enormous stride.

>>But always better to know what lies behind that gaudy makeup.

That's why I say complaining about individual manifestations of our shortcomings, while necessary but not adequate. We need to figure out why these things happen with such regularity in India. That requires searching for causes.
Augustus AAA
Pune, India
Jul 05, 2009 12:00 AM
63
" It has become fashionable to "find fault" with everything "Indian" and Ms Arundhathi Roy is the "high priestess" of the "criticise India Club". Thankfully, Newton anticipated such behaviour well in advance and stated that "for every action there is an equal and opposite criticism"."

If there are faults better find them , fahionable or not.

Good that that for every action there is opposite critisism. That's the way democracy should function. There had been a great application of Newton's law some time, someplace by some braggart. Better Newton be left alone.
MANISH BANERJEE
KOLKATA, India
Jul 05, 2009 12:00 AM
62
"There is no common theme running through her rambling and disconnected essays."

Possibly true ; which does not invalidate or makes legitimate the venalities perpretrated on the nation in the name of democracy.

One need not take Roy the whole hog; neither it's within your power to make democracy pristine virigin. But always better to know what lies behind that gaudy makeup.


Infinite differential may be , but when you know , it may make adifference. That's where people like Roy helps. After all it's our demcracy.
MANISH BANERJEE
KOLKATA, India
Jul 05, 2009 12:00 AM
61
It has become fashionable to "find fault" with everything "Indian" and Ms Arundhathi Roy is the "high priestess" of the "criticise India Club". Thankfully, Newton anticipated such behaviour well in advance and stated that "for every action there is an equal and opposite criticism".

The power shortage in India is mostly for rural poor and farmers and they face maximum "power cut". Wouldn't Arundhathi criticise proposal to switch off all the powerful Sodium Vapour Lamps and ACs in cities so that the rural poor is given uninterrupted power supply??? Will she stay in a Five Star hotel where ACs have been switched off to ensure power supply to farmers and rural poor??? BAATH KARTHE HE!!!!!!!
Akil
Bangalore, India
Jul 05, 2009 12:00 AM
60
Ms. Roy asks “what have we done to democracy?” In the Indian context, I’d say an emphatic NOTHING. Without cleaning, maintenance and upkeep, even a luxury mansion becomes dusty, musty and rusty. And that’s what we have done to Indian democracy. Nothing. No upkeep. No periodic maintenance.

V.S. Naipaul observes how we Indians do not take care of things we do have. Instead, we use them carelessly while we have them and then wail theatrically and inconsolably after we ruin them with our own hands. We wipe away our tears and chalk it up to the all-purpose ingredient in our thought: fate. Whether it is a bicycle or democracy, our national character is not to take care of things while we have them.

Just a wholesale importation of parliament and other institutions from foreign lands without any critical understanding of the fundamental assumptions or values behind them. Just as Rani Mukherjee can turn into a sexy siren with a leather miniskirt for three hours and then revert to the sati-savitri norm, we all become democrats spouting clichés in our speech and revert to feudal norms in our actions. We’ve never had a serious national discussion about what kind of people are needed to make a democracy work. Consequently, we don’t bother developing the kind of people needed to support a democracy. Unsurprisingly, our democracy becomes decrepit.

Ms. Roy diagnoses the need for long-term vision. What are the leading candidates to replace democracy to consider carefully the long-run impact of our decisions on our posterity? Communism can’t think past the cult of the party. Socialism can’t think past its clichés. Feudalism can’t think past the past. Environmentalism can’t think past its nature worship. Activism can’t think past the TV camera crews.

There is no common theme running through her rambling and disconnected essays. Other than saying she is unhappy about many things (as I am), she doesn’t tie them together. For example, all our pathologies symptomatic of a sick culture? And her failure to make such an attempt is a shame. She accomplished nothing other than venting her spleen and perhaps selling a few books.
Augustus AAA
Pune, India
Jul 05, 2009 12:00 AM
59
The problem with democracy which is supposed to be 'of the people by the people and for the people' is that there is an absence of God. And yes I agree more violence has been done in the name of religion than any other, but that is because the question of the truth about God is never tabled or answered. So when man makes himself God then might becomes right, which is to say whoever is in power will do whatsoever he pleases, and those people who want the power know how to get elected.
I believe the question of who is our God must be answered before true governance can take place.
Edgar Nevis
Nasik, India
Jul 05, 2009 12:00 AM
58
" You do have a point in that the Chinese have definitely managed to raise their collective standard of living, but it does come at a cost."

Managed to 'raise their collective standard of living' my foot!

Haven't you seen those millions of Chinese only a sack on their shoulder, presumably their life's possession, trudging back to the railway station to get back to their villages at the on set of current finacial depression? Thousands squatting on the Raiway station to get a foot on the train or thousands who got a foothold holding their dear life or the precious sack? All of them leaving their labour camps where they were paid just, only just , substistance.

I for one don't believe in the Chinese economy revivng again or 17% growth repeating. They built a house of cards depending on export of cheap goods to American consumers, who in their turn, plastic card in hand, thought it helluva party.

American economy is unlikely to regain supremacy in foreseeable future & for that matter nor the Chinese. It so happens we in India are better equipped to take off.

Here's one of Arundhati's weaknesses. While she went hammaer & tongs about Indian SEZs, she never went for original progenitors of SEZ, presumably because the Chines call theslves communists.
MANISH BANERJEE
KOLKATA, India
Jul 05, 2009 12:00 AM
57
Democracy was Very Good, until it was infected by Leftists like you, and that infection has now mutated. Shame on people like you!!!!!
Kel Shorey
Glasgow, United Kingdom
Jul 05, 2009 12:00 AM
56
>> Some restricts critisism about her being 'one book wonder'.

Many of her articles/writings are well read and well published. If a person gets a Noble prize or Oscar or Grammy etc once, that is still quite something and it does not make sense to automatically call them as a one movie wonder or a one invention wonder or a one song wonder etc. Even in boxing where that phrase of being a one time wonder is sometimes used, it is quite something to stand in a ring against a Tyson or a Muhammad Ali and land a punch that brings them down and win a match, even if the person has done it just once :-). How many people can do that or have done that?
Kumar
Bangalore, India
Jul 05, 2009 12:00 AM
55
There are now seven posts on this Arundahti piece. Many more will be written. It's apparent many of these guys did not bother to read her, those who read skipped paragrphs or do not have the patience to comprehend what they read. Arundhaty Roy herself is now repeatative, may be a bit tiring. Its now esaier to cut through her thesis.

But the same people say the same things they said before here in this blog over & over again which are basically besides the point or borrowed wisdom.

Some take recourse to pejoritives or the vile. Thinks that fashionable. Once upon a time one Ram Chandra Guha tried to take on the lady on her turf. He ended up with rotten eggs on her face.

The point is one need not agree to what she says or writes. But take her on her own surmises. Some restricts critisism about her being 'one book wonder'. It's not clear why she has to be multibook recyclic vendor. Feed pork at one end , the sausage comes out at the other , as many an Indian Enlish writer seem to do.

That's where Arundhaty Roy triumphs.
MANISH BANERJEE
KOLKATA, India
Jul 05, 2009 12:00 AM
54
what is it with Outlook and Roy ? As usual she starts with a grandiose even if convoluted vision about democracy and ends with a now familiar anti-India rant and of late freedom for Kashmir mantra.
Anil Kotwal
Adelaide,, Australia
Jul 05, 2009 12:00 AM
53
Iqbal Z,

>> where there is a conflict, if you condemn the sins of one side, you have to condemn the sins of the other

But to begin with, one can disagree with your categorization of the entire kashmiri issue as nothing more than a "hindu-muslim conflict". Secondly, if you are talking in general (and not specifically on kashmir alone), even in a "conflict" or violence, one side can be more or entirely wrong as well, like inflicing injustice/exploitation/suppression etc on a weaker section like the poor, dalits, women etc.
Kumar
Bangalore, India
Jul 05, 2009 12:00 AM
52
Iqbal Z,

>> But there are any number of writers who write about Gujarat and Modi without condemning the hardships of the Muslims there. Is it OK for them to do so?

Give an example and I will give my opinion. If they are praising Modi for what they see as not catering to the rights/justice of Muslims, then it is condemnable. But it is surely possible to talk about Gujarat without talking about Muslims.
Kumar
Bangalore, India
Jul 05, 2009 12:00 AM
51
KUMAR:

It is hardly worth arguing with a total moron, but where there is a conflict, if you condemn the sins of one side, you have to condemn the sins of the other. That is what, clown, is called being fair.

Got it? Some hope.......
Iqbal Z
Pune, India
Jul 05, 2009 12:00 AM
50
Iqbal Z,

>> As for Hindus being "demeaned" by my condemnation of their suicidal passivity, what demeans them is their gutlessness.

So you mean street fights, mobocracy and communal rioting is a mark of "guts"? As for the police/army/law etc, hindus have it too, like any other. Calling for lawless communal violence in the streets in the name of Hinduism is indeed demeaning and a bad PR to Hinduism.

>> Cowardice is the sure way to doom.

Showing restraint in the face of provocation is a personal virtue - not cowardice. One can have that virtue and yet have police/army/law etc to fulfill the duty of protecting the rights/justice of fellow human beings.

>> If they can't fight back, they don't deserve to survive.

We are not living in a lawless mobocracy for asking “hindus” to fight “muslims” or “marathis to fight non-marathis” or “dalits to fight upper castes” etc in street fights and communal violence/riots.
Kumar
Bangalore, India
Jul 05, 2009 12:00 AM
49
KUMAR says:

"So you seriously do not see a difference between a writer choosing the subjects to write and the state/CM being non-supportive of the welfare/well-being/dignity/rights/justice/freedom etc of a section of society?"

But there are any number of writers who write about Gujarat and Modi without condemning the hardships of the Muslims there. Is it OK for them to do so?

What utter clowns you all are: Anwaar, Augustus AAA and perhaps the prize chump, you.....!!! Enough to make a stone laugh.



Iqbal Z
Pune, India
Jul 05, 2009 12:00 AM
48
She is old and her writing is boring and tasteless. Not my cup of tea.
vikram chandra
Visakhapatnam, India
Jul 05, 2009 12:00 AM
47
As a matter of fact, I am astonished the Pakistanis have not organised a thousand times MORE attacks on Hindus. Given Hindu complacency and feebleness, that is what I would have expected.
Iqbal Z
Pune, India
Jul 05, 2009 12:00 AM
46
Iqbal Z,

>> Where there is a Hindu-Muslim conflict, you tedious imbecile, you cannot condemn the sins of one side ...

You are putting the whole issue of Kashmir as a "Hindu-Muslim conflict", that is your problem.

>> if you are right, why condemn Modi for not talking about the hardships of Muslims?

So you seriously do not see a difference between a writer choosing the subjects to write and the state/CM being non-supportive of the welfare/well-being/dignity/rights/justice/freedom etc of a section of society?
Kumar
Bangalore, India
Jul 05, 2009 12:00 AM
45
KUMAR:

As for Hindus being "demeaned" by my condemnation of their suicidal passivity, what demeans them is their gutlessness.

Cowardice is the sure way to doom.

Hindus INVITE by their cowardice the inhuman attacks made on them by jehadis and the cover up for the jehadis by false "secularists". If they can't fight back, they don't deserve to survive.
Iqbal Z
Pune, India
Jul 05, 2009 12:00 AM
44
KUMAR says:

"I do not know how many times she [Roy) wrote about the issue of Kashmiri pandits, but that is her choice (like the choice of other writers who may not have written much about dalit/tribal issues). One has to engage a writer on what he/she chooses to write. If wafa sultan did not write about hindu extremism does not mean that she should not write about islamic extremism etc. Or if Ambedkar did not write much about womens rights, it does not mean that he should not write about dalit rights etc"

Where there is a Hindu-Muslim conflict, you tedious imbecile, you cannot condemn the sins of one side without condemning the sins of the other side. Got that into your thick skull?

Besides, if you are right, why condemn Modi for not talking about the hardships of Muslims? He, too, has a right to talk about what he chooses?
Iqbal Z
Pune, India
Jul 05, 2009 12:00 AM
43
Iqbal Z,

>> on the other hand either fails to condemn these thugs or does so in the most belated and mealy-mouthed fashion, just to save face:

The fact remains that she does not support the violence/violation of rights/justice/freedom of people (by use of violence, incitement etc).

>> her extremely reluctant criticism of the Islamist cut-throats in Kashmir who drove out the Hindu community en masse from the Kashmir Valley.

That is like saying that supporting blacks rights is the same as supporting the nation of Islam etc. If she supports some points made by various movements is Kashmir, that is not the same as supporting the driving of Kashmiri pandits.

>> It was like getting blood out of stone to make Roy admit -unbelievable as it seems! - even mere Hindus, those lowest of the low of all forms of life, might have grievances against those bloody-hnded Islamisat heroes of hers, those devotees of her beloved "azadi".

There are many writers who have not talked/written extensively about grievances of tribals/dalits etc for example, but that is not the same as saying that it is "like getting blood out of stone" to get them to admit that tribals/dalits have grievances. I do not know how many times she wrote about the issue of Kashmiri pandits, but that is her choice (like the choice of other writers who may not have written much about dalit/tribal issues). One has to engage a writer on what he/she chooses to write. If wafa sultan did not write about hindu extremism does not mean that she should not write about islamic extremism etc. Or if Ambedkar did not write much about womens rights, it does not mean that he should not write about dalit rights etc.

>> … Hindus, those lowest of the low of all forms of life …. But Hindus DESERVE to be treated with such inhumanity, even I feel sometimes, because they are so passive and fail to hit back.

It is actually statements like this that demean hinduism. A very bad PR for Hinduism/hindus. If you think that showing restraint in the face of provocation is a hindu virtue (like how Christians claim it as teachings of Jesus), be bold to stand by it and proclaim it as a virtue that every hindu should stand by.
Kumar
Bangalore, India
Jul 05, 2009 12:00 AM
42
To tell the truth, I surmised what Roy must have said before I bothered to read her. Then I found I was only too right: not a single one of her thoughts was unexpected to me. The same stale rant.
Iqbal Z
Pune, India
Jul 05, 2009 12:00 AM
41
KUMAR says the people who attack the Indian state violently and kill people could have valid causes but thir violence should be condemned.

Agreed.

But that is exactly what VARUN is saying. Roy, on the other hand either fails to condemn these thugs or does so in the most belated and mealy-mouthed fashion, just to save face: as with her extremely reluctant criticism of the Islamist cut-throats in Kashmir who drove out the Hindu community en masse from the Kashmir Valley. It was like getting blood out of stone to make Roy admit -unbelievable as it seems! - even mere Hindus, those lowest of the low of all forms of life, might have grievances against those bloody-hnded Islamisat heroes of hers, those devotees of her beloved "azadi".

But Hindus DESERVE to be treated with such inhumanity, even I feel sometimes, because they are so passive and fail to hit back.
Iqbal Z
Pune, India
Jul 05, 2009 12:00 AM
40
What is the "special relation" between Arundhthi- "The One Book Wounder"- Roy and Mr Mehtha that OUTLOOK splurges on her too frequently. Spare the readers the agony please. No comments on the article as it has been discarded after reading the few initial lines with the disdain it deserves- as the rest was all too obvious.
Akil
Bangalore, India
Jul 05, 2009 12:00 AM
39
Varun,

>> What standard is Arundhati Roy advocating or praising? The Naxals, the Kashmiri separatists, some of the Northeastern separatist groups?

It is possible to agree with certain points made by a certain group with out necessarily agreeing with the methods used by that group. For example, if there is a group indulging in violent uprising against corruption, caste discrimination, mass people displacement without livelihood etc, one may agree with some of the points made by those groups without agreeing with the use of violence, incitement etc. And one may even criticize the state for not appropriately dealing with some of the valid points made by these groups.
Kumar
Bangalore, India
Jul 05, 2009 12:00 AM
38
"If that is enough to compliment oneself, it means that the standard one has set for oneself itself is quite poor and sub-standard to begin with."

What standard is Arundhati Roy advocating or praising? The Naxals, the Kashmiri separatists, some of the Northeastern separatist groups? None of these would tolerate the kind of views and dissent that India currently does. They would be the first to expel, imprison or execute anyone they thought would weaken their new found state. Yet, she is unwaveringly sympathetic to them. They all possess a very weak intellectual, ethical and spiritual base. They are purely reactive, hostile and militant. The kind of states they would set up would not be liberal, open, pluralistic, secular or self-critical. She suspects this herself, but feels their movements as resistance to the Indian state are essentially sound. So the resistance and hostility to the Indian state becomes, for her, the be-all and end-all of a movement's legitimacy. Not the intrinsic quality of the cause in itself or what the cause sets out to achieve.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Jul 05, 2009 12:00 AM
37
a couple of typos below....
Iqbal Z
Pune, India
Jul 05, 2009 12:00 AM
36
AUGUSTUS AAA:

One can rely on you for a fatuous bit of self-lauding wisdom. Thus you say:

"Socrates' entire intellectual legacy was merely to ask questions because he claimed to be ignorant; Its arrogant to claim to be less ignorant than him."

Ignorant you certainly are. If you had actually READ the dilogues of Socrates as presented by Plato you would know that Socrates sets out his own views in huge deatail, as well as ask questions. Just have a look at "The Republic", for instance.

Nor is socratic questioning merely crude disingenuity, as with you.

But why insult poor Socrates by talking about him to a moron so pitiably brainless that he believes Eve came from Adam's rib? You have yet to hear the name of Darwin. What a clown.....No novelist could have invented quite such an artless, self-infatuated, pompous buffoon.

Iqbal Z
Pune, India
Jul 05, 2009 12:00 AM
35
In the first place, who said democracy is perfect 10? It is the lesser evil because people have to be governed.
Democracy is like our parents. They may not be perfect, but they nurtured us.
Roy has ceased to be an unbiased observer long back.
She is afraid of simple writing because then she will have nothing to say.
She is behaving like Dhritarashtra, trying to block out everything which does not suit her.
She has stopped to grow. She is rather like a stunted tree, a kaikeyi.
pear
mumbai, India
Jul 05, 2009 12:00 AM
34
>>How about YOU elaborating on your anti-Indian or anti-Hindu or whatever thesis? You sure have a lot of bile and we should at least know where you stand.

You diagnosed my bile levels without knowing where I stand?

>>So far you are a mystery person,

No. I fit to a T whatever stereotype that passes for sober thoughts in your mind.

>>Your trick is always to force others to do all the laborious explaining, while you confine yourself to the odd sniping attack.

Socrates' entire intellectual legacy was merely to ask questions because he claimed to be ignorant; Its arrogant to claim to be less ignorant than him.

>>An easy device. Maybe you choose it out of sheer inability to write at length without grammatical howlers.

Compared to your "War & Peace" length essays, I am merely a tweeter.

>>Now you do some work for a change. Tell us your views in detail.

Well.........they are scintillating with wit, overflowing with knowledge, pulsating with intellectual rigor, sweeping in breadth, impish in humor, fresh in perspective, merciless in sardonic humor, light with touch, irritatingly persuasive, and rarely boring. And I know just how to irk you...such as the litany above. What else you want to know?

>>You can rely on a detailed response from me.

I was afraid you were going to say that.
Augustus AAA
Pune, India
Jul 05, 2009 12:00 AM
33
Reddy:

Bile is not always good: only when it is aroused by Hindus.

We should all be as moral as that great exemplar of morality, th ISI.
Iqbal Z
Pune, India
Jul 05, 2009 12:00 AM
32
"You sure have a lot of bile and we should at least know where you stand. "

Bile is good. If you don't have bile you are clearly not in touch with whats happening around you or you are out of touch with your morality (like Americans under the Bush regime).
Reddy
Bangalore, India
Jul 05, 2009 12:00 AM
31
couple of typos below: superstition, not supertition, fellow, not ellow.....
Iqbal Z
Pune, India
Jul 05, 2009 12:00 AM
30
AUGUSTUS AAA:

How about YOU elaborating on your anti-Indian or anti-Hindu or whatever thesis? You sure have a lot of bile and we should at least know where you stand.

So far you are a mystery person, not even disclosing what church you belong to despite a ludicrous Biblical fundamentalism that would shame an intelligent five year old (accepting that Eve came from Adam's rib, etc. What evidence is there against it, you ask....I should not have believed such laughable supertition had survived into our century. What is the evidence against Santa Claus?)

Your trick is always to force others to do all the laborious explaining, while you confine yourself to the odd sniping attack. An easy device. Maybe you choose it out of sheer inability to write at length without grammatical howlers.

Now you do some work for a change. Tell us your views in detail. You can rely on a detailed response from me. I do give them, as you know. I don't play your game of making the other ellow do all the work.
Iqbal Z
Pune, India
Jul 05, 2009 12:00 AM
29
>>>>"We all know the arguments against her thesis (if she has any) and brief."

>>Actually i dont ... would you care to elaborate the 'argument' against her 'thesis' if you have any?

You haven't figure it out yet, have you? When we Indians say "we all know the arguments against...." means we haven't a clue but we don't like it...
Augustus AAA
Pune, India
Jul 05, 2009 12:00 AM
28
>> She lives happily in India slandering the Hindus and making them out to be intolerant. They tolerate her and she makes a good living. That tells its own good story about the Hindus .. Could she have denounced Islam in an Islamic country? She would have been torn top pieces the first time she tried

Many irrational, childish and immature personal comments on Ms. Roy (instead of actual debate/argument) as seen in this forum tells different story - that there is a lot of scope/need for improvement in the quality of debate. You are right that this is still better than the worst of Islamists, who kill etc. If that is enough to compliment oneself, it means that the standard one has set for oneself itself is quite poor and sub-standard to begin with.
Kumar
Bangalore, India
Jul 05, 2009 12:00 AM
27
What Roy is doing is very useful.

She lives happily in India slandering the Hindus and making them out to be intolerant. They tolerate her and she makes a good living.

That tells its own good story about the Hindus.

Could she have denounced Islam in an Islamic country? She would have been torn top pieces the first time she tried.

So carry on, Roy ! You are doing good work for the Hindus.
Iqbal Z
Pune, India
Jul 05, 2009 12:00 AM
26
Ajay,

>> she is cherry picking the issues ...

There is nothing wrong in cherry picking the issues. For example, one can pick on specific issue like corruption or communalism or terrorism or human rights etc. It is not possible for any person to write on all the issues. What would be wrong is to deliberately cherry pick partial or one-sided facts related to an issue and present a false picture (people who do that are propagandists rather then truth-seekers). If you think Ms. Roy is doing that, you are free to present the other side of the issue or present the facts that she is missing or ignoring to take into consideration/account.
Kumar
Bangalore, India
Jul 05, 2009 12:00 AM
25
SS Nagaraj,

>> Arundhati Roy is a big bore with her endless tirade against Narendra Modi and now against Varun Gandhi.

If you find her writings boring, you do not have to read them. There are many who like to read them and that is why her writings get published.

>> This fanatical anti-Hindu Christian ...

Narendra Modi and Varun Gandhi and other such fake-bhakths and pseudo-religionists would better fit the description of anti-hindu, as they bring disrepute and disgrace to the religion.

>> will never write a line on the murder of Swami Lakshmanand by Christians of Kandhamal or about the sexuality in the Catholic church

She will write what she wants to write. You write what you want to write. Taslima Nasreen does not write about hindutva extremism, but only writes about Islamist fundamentalism, that’s her choice. . If you have any criticism of what anyone chooses to write, you are free to give your comments. It is as simple as that.

>> Ms Roy's with hate filled mind can write only in negative vein.

What about your mind? What is it filled with?
Kumar
Bangalore, India
Jul 05, 2009 12:00 AM
24
"We all know the arguments against her thesis (if she has any) and brief."

Actually i dont ... would you care to elaborate the 'argument' against her 'thesis' if you have any ?
Reddy
Bangalore, India
Jul 05, 2009 12:00 AM
23
gaurav -- "China, which has fed off the excesses of western mercantilism and established a new balance between prosperity and freedom that is there for all the developing world to see and emulate."

In other words give up our personal freedom/s and emulate the State Capitalist Chinese system of governance. You do have a point in that the Chinese have definitely managed to raise their collective standard of living, but it does come at a cost. I am not familiar with Chinese society at large but what happens when a society doesnt really have personal freedom, nor democratic instituitions or a viable judiciary that attempts to protect individual rights ? And of course a host of other rights that we take for granted.
Reddy
Bangalore, India
Jul 05, 2009 12:00 AM
22
anwar--" If we were more just, honest and humane, our governments would be more just, honest and humane. "

Very true, and too often we end up with the governments we collectively deserve.

--gaurav-" would shout any absurdity to hide the fact that over the last decade she has failed to come up with a successor to her semi - autobiographical debut novel that dealt with incest. "

Have you actually bothered to read what she writes. Please point out the absurdities in the article and maybe we can discuss that ? You and i dont have to agree on anything or anything she says but we can at least discuss it honestly i presume.

Claiming we are the worlds largest democracy and reveling in it is meaningless. This stems from our seemingly endless appetite to display our democratic credentials to the 'West'. Instead if we as a society choose to be 'just, honest and humane' we dont really have to grovel at western validation.
Reddy
Bangalore, India
Jul 05, 2009 12:00 AM
21
Anbanerjee,

>> We all know the arguments against her thesis (if she has any) ...

First decide whether she has any thesis. And if so, then talk about the "arguments" which you claim that we all know against her thesis.
Kumar
Bangalore, India
Jul 05, 2009 12:00 AM
20
I may not agree with Ms Roy's every thought but at the same time I think she is needed in a society to put forward the views of other end of the spectrum.

my only issue is that some times she try very hard to be different - if Pakistan and other troubled countries has democracy and India - non-democracy then she would be writing against non-democracies.

she is cherry picking the issues and ceased to be un-biased - although we need uncompromising and at times blatant idealists (even if we do not understand their thought process)

peace
Ajay
Troy, usa
Jul 05, 2009 12:00 AM
19
In the next few decades the challenge to democracy, imperfect as it is, will come from China, which has fed off the excesses of western mercantilism and established a new balance between prosperity and freedom that is there for all the developing world to see and emulate.

Happy thoughts indeed on the US Independence Day !!
gaurav
out west, United States
Jul 05, 2009 12:00 AM
18
Democracy for us is simply the least noxious form of government. It does not make us better human beings. We give legitimacy to our human frailties by adopting a quasi-legitimate form of government. If we were more just, honest and humane, our governments would be more just, honest and humane. But we can't look to governments to make us more just, honest and humane.
Anwaar
Dallas, United States
Jul 04, 2009 12:00 AM
17
I just saw this headline next to this article, thought it was kinda apt:

'The Astonishing Embrace Of Nonsense'
chandra
Portland, USA
Jul 04, 2009 12:00 AM
16
Mariam ( the real name of the Keralan Christian who goes by the more mainstream name of Arundhati Roy ) would shout any absurdity to hide the fact that over the last decade she has failed to come up with a successor to her semi - autobiographical debut novel that dealt with incest.
gaurav
out west, United States
Jul 04, 2009 12:00 AM
15
Looks like the Indian tribals are not included when Indian talks about 'democracy' or 'India'. An unjust society is the hallmark of a third world country.
Raj
Chicago, United States
Jul 04, 2009 12:00 AM
14
I liked this Arundhati's write-up. As a matter of fact, I liked all the previous ones too. Like me, there will be several who go along with her thoughts and there are those who detest her writings. misinterpretations and misunderstanding prevail but Arundhati carries on with her essays. Yes, we are in a democracy so she should carry on like this without giving a damn about critisims.
shivkumar
Pratapgarh, India
Jul 04, 2009 12:00 AM
13
Arundhati Roy is a big bore with her endless tirade against Narendra Modi and now against Varun Gandhi.This fanatical anti-Hindu Christian will never write a line on the murder of Swami Lakshmanand by Christians of Kandhamal or about the sexuality in the Catholic church,as exposed in her book(Amen)by a former nun of Kerala.Ms Roy's with hate filled mind can write only in negative vein.
S.S.Nagaraj
Bangalore, India
Jul 04, 2009 12:00 AM
12
comeon guys we take this girl to seriously! she is an one book wonder.

We all know the arguments against her thesis (if she has any) and brief.
ANBanerjee
Newcastle, United Kingdom
Jul 04, 2009 12:00 AM
11
"Apart from her usual self-indulgence, she still hasn't spelt it out: What will succeed Indian democracy and federalism and pluralism?"

So far she has not talked about discarding democracy. But fault-lines of democrcy , the Indian vareity & all other vareity, needs to be visited & revisited frequently to keep its aberrations in cheque. We India semm to think to be enabled to stand in a que & cast our vote is means & end of demcracy.

But democracy, though indispensible, is its master's harlot, ready to be used the way its masters want.

Politicians will also love to leave it that way.

People like Roy helps one to understand the goins on under cover of democracy, thereby paving the way for better democracy. So that greater number of people understand the nuances of the process , put democratic pressure , keep it in course for those stood the que. Benefit the greater numbers , rather than a handful.

While at it, I must say Roy's views on Kshmir is totally flawed.


MANISH BANERJEE
KOLKATA, India
Jul 04, 2009 12:00 AM
10
That's a legitimate remark, Ramesh. Yes, in an Azadi Kashmir or a Naxalstan or Khalistan, there will not be any Arundhati Roys writing the way they do; there won't be any gays and lesbians clamouring-and achieving rights and freedoms; no open questioning of anything to do with religion i.e Islam. Sikhism or evangelical Christianity, since such questioning would undermine the very basis of these putative new states, and bring forth accusations of being 'Indian/Zionist agents'.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Jul 04, 2009 12:00 AM
9
Roy has emerged from a long hibernation without loosing any fat !
dip
Dhaka, Bangladesh
Jul 04, 2009 12:00 AM
8
There are many falls in democrcy but why not Roy suggest alternative to this system ?If in India there no democracy can Roy write so openly?
Ramesh Raghuvanshi
pune, India
Jul 04, 2009 12:00 AM
7
Apart from her usual self-indulgence, she still hasn't spelt it out: What will succeed Indian democracy and federalism and pluralism? She hints at some possibilities: Saudi, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Somalia, Myanmar, North Korea. Surely none of those are viable, ethical or desirable outcomes.
What is she getting at? If her vision is of small, self-sustaining communities, why not state that outright. And also describe the ideology and composition of these putative communities, their economics as well- what they will produce, how much, with what technology etc.
As far as Kashmir goes, she still hasn't explained the phenomenon of Ladakh, or Jammu for that matter. Why is it that those people are quite content with Indian democracy and federalism, but not the Kashmiri Moslems? Could it be religion and ideology, as opposed to 'oppression', unless of course one defines 'oppression' as "Islamic majority state within Hindu majority country". Most sensible people would not accept that definition.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Jul 04, 2009 12:00 AM
6
It is so sad that she is imprisoned only for 2days.
pear
mumbai, India
Jul 04, 2009 12:00 AM
5
She is unhappy that now Srilanka is free of terrorist outfit LTTE. When you deal with such a terrorist organisation, some brutality is inevitable. Why mischievous journos and others who make their living out of the sufferings and embarrassments of nations must be allowed to interfere in Srilanka or anywhere else?
pear
mumbai, India
Jul 04, 2009 12:00 AM
4
Maze of words.
She wants Maoists to thrive and asks the government of India to keep quiet when they kill hundreds of policemen, terrorise tribals who oppose them and collaborate with other terrorists.
She sheds crocodile tears for kashmiris. If there is no Kashmir, half her livelihood would be cutoff.
She is angry about Indian democracy's success rate for it debunks her dreams of destroying so called India.
Her hatred for hindus is phenomenal.
Her hatred for industrialists is also phenomenal.
By agreeing to publish her book by Penguins, is she not destroying part of forest wealth she speaks so passionately about? Why this holy saint is in this sinful country still?
pear
mumbai, India
Jul 04, 2009 12:00 AM
3


You are no longer a 'fiction writer', Arundhati. A fiction writer you were long time back. A freak superb stroke of the brush , a pen rather, a godly small thing. You are now just an essyist . A good one I must admit.

But that is also getting stale. Because one essay is rehash of the one before. The same facts & coclusions recast into fourteen or odd pages of glossies again & again. Compile these essays into a book & recycle it in to the 'market'. The 'market'you rail against. An Algebra of finite royalies?

Failure of Imagination?
MANISH BANERJEE
KOLKATA, India
Jul 04, 2009 12:00 AM
2
>>Notice has been given by the series of terrorist strikes that culminated in the Mumbai attacks of 2008.

Who’ll put off such a puffed up pain? Even after her farting gift - “9 is not 11”, it’s amazing that she is still in a maze. The saucy antel is on, once again. The boot is on the wrong leg, Roy.

Time to get some brain bleach.

prometheus
kolkata, India
Jul 04, 2009 12:00 AM
1
Shall we have a dictatorship with ARUNDHATHY ROY as the QUEEN. "Off with the head" and there goes democracy. Why does OUTLOOK impose such agony on it's readers- all 14 page of it- Mr Mehta.
Akil
Bangalore, India