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Paradise Spied

Sadia Dehlvi has, by her own admission, quoted Annemarie Schimmel extensively in her book. She also quotes Rumi and Saadi and others she does not know

Saeed Naqvi

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SUFISM: THE HEART OF ISLAM
BY
SADIA DEHLVI
HARPERCOLLINS
PAGES: 400; RS. 695

Since Sadia Dehlvi has, by her own admission, quoted Annemarie Schimmel extensively in her book, let me lift the first paragraph from Schimmel's Mystical Dimensions of Islam: "To write about Sufism, or Islamic Mysticism, is an almost impossible task. At the first step, a wide mountain range appears before the eye—and the longer the seeker pursues the path, the more difficult it seems to reach any goal at all. He may dwell in the rose gardens of Persian mystic poetry or try to reach the icy peaks of theosophic speculations, he may dwell in the lowlands of popular saint worship or drive his camel through the endless deserts of theoretical discourse about the nature of Sufism, of God, of the world, or he may be content to have an all round glimpse of the landscape.... Only a select few will reach the farthest mountain on which the mythical bird, Simurgh, lives...to understand that they have reached only what was already in themselves." The para represents the essence of Sufism. Sadia quotes Rumi and Saadi and others she does not know. The distillate of Schimmel's word-picture exists in many Urdu couplets which Sadia should know.

"Tha woh to rashke hoor-e-behesti hameen mein mir! Samjhe na hum to fahm ka apne qusoor tha." (That hoor from paradise was part of my being. I blame it on my utter lack of comprehension of the Ultimate Truth). Mir, like other great Urdu poets, has seen Simurgh.

Sadia's next assignment should be to persuade Khushwant Singh to translate Sufi couplets of Urdu poets.

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Authors: Saeed Naqvi
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Jun 01, 2009 12:00 AM 19	ANWAR PATEL's type of extreme Islamism put forward in a moderate tone is far more dangerous than the noisy Islamism. In the Zionist movement, too, there were those like Begin who supported bloody terrorism in the name of national freedom. But the main part of the Zionist movement rejected that absurd and immoral doctrine, and that is why Zionism earned respect. It is because of millions of Anwar Patels, sitting in decent and liberal countries and teaching their children that Islamist extremism is OK in Lebanon or Israel or Iraq or Afghanistan because the cause of the throat-cutters (cutters of Muslim throats, mostly) is "freedom", that the ground is created for extremist acts. Iqbal Z Pune, India
May 31, 2009 12:00 AM 18	iqbal z one of the problems of the palestine arabs i large families. some women have 10 to 14 kids. the population has probably gone up six times in last 40 years. this is an american conspiracy, for not takeing action. america should now resettle them near new york, where they can be cared for by cair, or perhaps dallas . banitoadolfo roma, Italy
May 31, 2009 12:00 AM 17	Iqbal Z, >> Arabs control not less than 99.75 per cent of all lands. It would be interesting to see how you react if someone wrests your house from you and tells you that there are lots of houses available where many of your kind of people live. >> Infinitely more Arabs are killed by brother Arabs than were ever killed by the Jewish cousins. Americans murder 9,300 other Americans every year, so when Al Qaeda killed 3,000 Americans on 9/11, the U.S. government should not have made any fuss! Do you think at all before you post your messages? Anwar Patel Dallas Tx, United States
May 31, 2009 12:00 AM 16	ANWAR PATEL: Your post: " >>Arabs control not less than 99.75 per cent of all lands. It would be interesting to see how you react if someone wrests your house from you and tells you that there are lots of houses available where many of your kind of people live. >> Infinitely more Arabs are killed by brother Arabs than were ever killed by the Jewish cousins. Americans murder 9,300 other Americans every year, so when Al Qaeda killed 3,000 Americans on 9/11, the U.S. government should not have made any fuss! Do you think at all before you post your messages? " Precisely ! That is how I react to your pooh-poohing of Hindu concerns about the complete ouster of our community from the Kashmir Valley and growing Islamic takeover of many other parts of India. So I take it you are a supporter of the BJP and Shiv Sena, since you have no problem as a secularist with supporting Hamas and Hizbollah? Iqbal Z Pune, India
May 31, 2009 12:00 AM 15	iqbal z israel is faceing its arab enemies. none requires an excuse- its a fight for their respectives rights. many such conflicts have happened in the past- in any case india supports israel for its own interests. muslims in india support hamas etc. are you surprised.? banitoadolfo roma, Italy
May 31, 2009 12:00 AM 14	Iqbal Z, >> That is how I react to your pooh-poohing of Hindu concerns about the complete ouster of our community from the Kashmir Valley. Except that I fully support the right of the Pandits to return. Both the GOI and the state government of Kashmir have the duty and obligation to bring about conditions which conduce to their safe return. >> and growing Islamic takeover of many other parts of India. Muslims cannot take over any "other parts" of India. You are crying wolf just in order to spread fear and hate. I do however favor fighting illegal immigration and promoting family planning. All you do is carry on a campaign of hate and fear. You do not have any constructive practical ideas. Anwar Patel Dallas Tx, United States
May 31, 2009 12:00 AM 13	ANWAR PATEL Israel's cause too, can be presented as secular by the same methids you use to present Islamist parties like Hamas and Hizbollah as OK for secularists to support. Israel and Zionism have legionsof non-Jewish and secularist supporters. Zionism was led by a man like Ben Gurion who was a self-professed aetheist. Zionism was supported by nopted aetheist and Marxist writers like Jean-Paul Sartre and Isaac Deutscher; there are indications that in his last years even Leon Trotsky had some sympathy with the idea of a Jewish nation state. Does that all make Zionism a sond secular cause? The BJP and the Hindu nationalists, too, have had their non-Hindu supporters, lkeGeorge Fernandes and Konraad Elst. Sarvarkar is claimed to have been an aetheist. Iqbal Z Pune, India
May 31, 2009 12:00 AM 12	Some typos below. Incidentally, Israel could never have been established without arms shipments authorised by the aetheist and Leftwing USSR. Iqbal Z Pune, India
May 31, 2009 12:00 AM 11	Iqbal Z, >> Israel's cause too, can be presented as secular. You brought in the question of secularism in the Middle East conflict. It is irrelevant and asinine. It is a land issue and a justice issue. Anwar Patel Dallas Tx, United States
May 31, 2009 12:00 AM 10	ANWAR PATEL: Hindu nationalism, too, is a land issue and a justice issue. Such as the loss of Hindu lands to Islamists in Kashmir and the expulsion of Hindus from Pakistan and Bangladesh on a far bigger scale than happened to Muslims in India. Everyone has his cause. Don't try to degrade the Hindu cause as bigoted while claiming Muslim causes are secular. That is your chief, hypocritical tactic. I have caught you out. From now on life will not be so easy for you on this website. Iqbal Z Pune, India
May 31, 2009 12:00 AM 9	>> Muslims cannot take over any "other parts" of India. One of the more stupid statements made on this forum, and that is saying something. Al Bundy San Francisco, United States
May 30, 2009 12:00 AM 8	ANWAR PATEL: Despite the last election results, the long-run likelihood for Hindus, if they are at all to survive, is the establishment of India as a Hindu state. This is a legitimate ideal, provided it is pursued non-violently and legally, and is scrupulously fair to Muslims. What I find unforgiveable in the BJP is their resort to violent agitation and riots shedding the blood of innocent Muslims. Such means are wholly and utterly damnable. Even if the Gujarat killings were begun by Muslims, there should never never NEVER have been any counter riots by the crazed Hindu goons. The BJP had an opportunity to prevent violence, protect the Muslims, and insist that the law decide who was guilty. It would have helped establish them as people worthy of respect. Instead they unleashed indiscriminate violence against the Muslims. The BJP are mostly a bunch of goons with the brains of buffaloes. Yet Hindu Rashtra is necessary for Hindu survival. The Indian state of today is contemptuous of Hindu interests. Nobody gives a damn for any suffering borne by Hindus, whether in Pakistan, or Bangladesh or Kashmir. For short-term electoral gains, the Congress is allowing illegal Muslim immigration to turn the North-east into a Muslim-majority area. This sort of thing is Hindu suicide. Muslims like you who claim to defend secularism in India, speak up strongly for fiercely Islamist parties like Hamas and Hizbollah abroad. At the very most you make a vague, uninterested gesture towards secularism in the Muslim world. Nobody believes you are sincere, and if you were it would not matter as you would be one of only a handful of Muslims who take secularism seriously. How interesting it is that almost NO person of Muslim origin disowns his Muslim identity, even if he or she claims to ba an aetheist or secularist. Look at Tariq Ali, the well-known supposed Marxist; he nonetheless proudly proclaims his belonging to Muslim culture and staunchly supports even Islamist groups like Hamas and Hizbollah. By contrast, who can imagine, say the Bengali Communists, talking of being Hindus? Muslim secularism has no credibility. Partition was a cruel event, and the Hindus came off worst; they suffered the horrors of Partition, but in return did not even secure a state to protect their interests. And they were still left with a growing Muslim minority, while the Muslims chased nearly all Hindus and Sikhs out of Pakistan. Muslims in India must be respected as people belonging to a civilization with nothing in common with Hindus. They belong to the Arab-centred civilization. They have no feeling for the Hindu heritage. This should not be expected of them just because most of them are of distant Hindu origins. We are different, wholly different, Anwar, you and I. Despite all my skeptical outlook, in my emotions I gravitate to the world of Hinduism, polyheism, the temples. You gravitate to Arabia. Fair enough. But let us respect the difference and part in a friendly fashion, you to your country, I to mine. The alternative is prolonged bloody conflict. IQBAL Z PUNE INDIA 03:27:36AM (IST) Iqbal Z Pune, India
May 30, 2009 12:00 AM 7	Iqbal Z, >> the long-run likelihood for Hindus, if they are at all to survive, is the establishment of India as a Hindu state. Hindusim can not only survive but thrive in a secular state. It seems only those who see Hinduism as being weak and vulnerable want a Hindu Rashtra. >> speak up strongly for fiercely Islamist parties like Hamas and Hizbollah. Palestine's struggle is for survival. I support the representatives they elect. You seem to have no qualms about supporting the Likud in Israel. >> Muslim secularism has no credibility. There is no such thing as Muslim secularism or Hindu secularism. Muslim countries have a long way to go before they become secular. India, on the other hand, is almost there. >> let us respect the difference and part in a friendly fashion, you to your country, I to mine. Apart from being totally psychotic, such a suggestion is contrary to what you said just a few days ago, when you advocated a Hindu state, but with full citizenship for all the minorities. As I have told you before, you are a cynic who believes in nothing. Anwar Patel Dallas Tx, United States
May 30, 2009 12:00 AM 6	ANWAR PATEL: You say: "Hindusim can not only survive but thrive in a secular state. It seems only those who see Hinduism as being weak and vulnerable want a Hindu Rashtra." I'm happy to have your word for it, but may I point out that in one of the oldest areas of Hindu settlement, the Kashmir Valley, Hindus have been expelled in toto and no-one in the Indian state gives a damn? So much for Hindus thriving. Hindus in what is now Pakistan used to be about a third of the population. The last time checked , in this ancient Hindu homeland, they were about 1.5 per cent. So much for Hindus thriving. In Bangladesh Hindus are down from 25 per cent to underr 10 per cent. Much of Afghanistan was also Hindu centuries ago. Now Hindus there are almost totally vanished. In the North East of India the illegal Muslim immigration connived in by Congress governments is well on the way to reducing Hindus to a minority. And so it goes. Of course I think Hinduism is very vulnerable indeed. A Hindu state would just give Hindus the minimum assurance and pride Christians and Muslims take for granted, with their scores of states. Iqbal Z Pune, India
May 30, 2009 12:00 AM 5	IqbalZ, >> Kashmir Valley, Hindus have been expelled in toto... Aberrations such as in Kashmir, Gujarat or Orissa do not make the rule, however horrid they may be. India is a vast country, and Hindus are safe and prospering in 96% of India. Kashmir is a war zone. And far more Muslims than Hindus have been killed in Kashmir. >> Hindus in what is now Pakistan used to be about a third of the population. It used to be 15%, now it is 2%. Polulation of Muslims in Haryana too has dropped to 4%. The departure of the British and the partition of the country created a havoc for the subcontinent. However at this time there are more Hindus in the world than ever before, and they are stronger both militarily and morally, except for some cowards who will never feel safe whatever happens. Anwar Patel Dallas Tx, United States
May 30, 2009 12:00 AM 4	Our resident musalmaan mongrel still seems to be at his game of defending and white-washing Koran inspired mass-murder Lungi-boy >> "Kashmir, Gujarat or Orissa do not make the rule, however horrid they may be" Wonder what was the percentage reduction of minority population in Gujarat or Orissa? In Kashmir valley, Hindus have practically disappeared. Lungi-boy >> "It used to be 15%, now it is 2%. Polulation of Muslims in Haryana too has dropped to 4%" Here we go again - whitewashing the near elimination of minorities in the nation, where his loyalties lie. >> "However at this time there are more Hindus in the world than ever before" Hence, it must be perfectly OK that they have been nearly eliminated from Kashmir valley , Bangladesh and Pakistan.... lookout bug me not mumbai, India
May 30, 2009 12:00 AM 3	ANWAR PATEL: Mai I point out that in the Middle East Muslims and Arabs control not less than 99.75 per cent of all lands (Israel is a mere 0.25 percent of Arab lands). So, why your hulaballo about Muslim suffering in the Middle East? In Palestine, in any case, the Arabs are in a war zone. Infinitely more Arabs are killed by brother Arabs than were ever killed by the Jewish cousins. So by your standards (as applied to Hindu claims), the Palestininas have no cause worth making a fuss about. Relax ! There are far more Muslims today than there ever were. Only people like you who see Islam as weak and vulnerable are likely to whine about Muslim causes. As you know there is nothing unsecular about supporting Hamas and Hizbollah, I take it you are a supporter of the BJP and Shiv Sena as well? After all, they are secular. They defend Hindu interests, not the interests of Hinduism as a religion. Vajpayee even drinks whisky, like Jinnah. All of them are full secular: BJP, Shiv sena, Hamas and Hizbollah. Iqbal Z Pune, India
May 30, 2009 12:00 AM 2	A few typos below. Iqbal Z Pune, India
May 25, 2009 12:00 AM 1	> "Sadia quotes Rumi and Saadi and others she does not know." Such a dismissive comment on a book written by Sadia Dehlvi, one of the brighter liberal Muslim voices, shows that Saeed Naqvi himself has not fully understood either Annemarie Schimmel or Simurgh. Anwar Patel Dallas Tx, United States

May 25, 2009 12:00 AM 1	> "Sadia quotes Rumi and Saadi and others she does not know." Such a dismissive comment on a book written by Sadia Dehlvi, one of the brighter liberal Muslim voices, shows that Saeed Naqvi himself has not fully understood either Annemarie Schimmel or Simurgh. Anwar Patel Dallas Tx, United States
May 30, 2009 12:00 AM 2	ANWAR PATEL: Despite the last election results, the long-run likelihood for Hindus, if they are at all to survive, is the establishment of India as a Hindu state. This is a legitimate ideal, provided it is pursued non-violently and legally, and is scrupulously fair to Muslims. What I find unforgiveable in the BJP is their resort to violent agitation and riots shedding the blood of innocent Muslims. Such means are wholly and utterly damnable. Even if the Gujarat killings were begun by Muslims, there should never never NEVER have been any counter riots by the crazed Hindu goons. The BJP had an opportunity to prevent violence, protect the Muslims, and insist that the law decide who was guilty. It would have helped establish them as people worthy of respect. Instead they unleashed indiscriminate violence against the Muslims. The BJP are mostly a bunch of goons with the brains of buffaloes. Yet Hindu Rashtra is necessary for Hindu survival. The Indian state of today is contemptuous of Hindu interests. Nobody gives a damn for any suffering borne by Hindus, whether in Pakistan, or Bangladesh or Kashmir. For short-term electoral gains, the Congress is allowing illegal Muslim immigration to turn the North-east into a Muslim-majority area. This sort of thing is Hindu suicide. Muslims like you who claim to defend secularism in India, speak up strongly for fiercely Islamist parties like Hamas and Hizbollah abroad. At the very most you make a vague, uninterested gesture towards secularism in the Muslim world. Nobody believes you are sincere, and if you were it would not matter as you would be one of only a handful of Muslims who take secularism seriously. How interesting it is that almost NO person of Muslim origin disowns his Muslim identity, even if he or she claims to ba an aetheist or secularist. Look at Tariq Ali, the well-known supposed Marxist; he nonetheless proudly proclaims his belonging to Muslim culture and staunchly supports even Islamist groups like Hamas and Hizbollah. By contrast, who can imagine, say the Bengali Communists, talking of being Hindus? Muslim secularism has no credibility. Partition was a cruel event, and the Hindus came off worst; they suffered the horrors of Partition, but in return did not even secure a state to protect their interests. And they were still left with a growing Muslim minority, while the Muslims chased nearly all Hindus and Sikhs out of Pakistan. Muslims in India must be respected as people belonging to a civilization with nothing in common with Hindus. They belong to the Arab-centred civilization. They have no feeling for the Hindu heritage. This should not be expected of them just because most of them are of distant Hindu origins. We are different, wholly different, Anwar, you and I. Despite all my skeptical outlook, in my emotions I gravitate to the world of Hinduism, polyheism, the temples. You gravitate to Arabia. Fair enough. But let us respect the difference and part in a friendly fashion, you to your country, I to mine. The alternative is prolonged bloody conflict. IQBAL Z PUNE INDIA 03:27:36AM (IST) Iqbal Z Pune, India
May 30, 2009 12:00 AM 3	Iqbal Z, >> the long-run likelihood for Hindus, if they are at all to survive, is the establishment of India as a Hindu state. Hindusim can not only survive but thrive in a secular state. It seems only those who see Hinduism as being weak and vulnerable want a Hindu Rashtra. >> speak up strongly for fiercely Islamist parties like Hamas and Hizbollah. Palestine's struggle is for survival. I support the representatives they elect. You seem to have no qualms about supporting the Likud in Israel. >> Muslim secularism has no credibility. There is no such thing as Muslim secularism or Hindu secularism. Muslim countries have a long way to go before they become secular. India, on the other hand, is almost there. >> let us respect the difference and part in a friendly fashion, you to your country, I to mine. Apart from being totally psychotic, such a suggestion is contrary to what you said just a few days ago, when you advocated a Hindu state, but with full citizenship for all the minorities. As I have told you before, you are a cynic who believes in nothing. Anwar Patel Dallas Tx, United States
May 30, 2009 12:00 AM 4	ANWAR PATEL: You say: "Hindusim can not only survive but thrive in a secular state. It seems only those who see Hinduism as being weak and vulnerable want a Hindu Rashtra." I'm happy to have your word for it, but may I point out that in one of the oldest areas of Hindu settlement, the Kashmir Valley, Hindus have been expelled in toto and no-one in the Indian state gives a damn? So much for Hindus thriving. Hindus in what is now Pakistan used to be about a third of the population. The last time checked , in this ancient Hindu homeland, they were about 1.5 per cent. So much for Hindus thriving. In Bangladesh Hindus are down from 25 per cent to underr 10 per cent. Much of Afghanistan was also Hindu centuries ago. Now Hindus there are almost totally vanished. In the North East of India the illegal Muslim immigration connived in by Congress governments is well on the way to reducing Hindus to a minority. And so it goes. Of course I think Hinduism is very vulnerable indeed. A Hindu state would just give Hindus the minimum assurance and pride Christians and Muslims take for granted, with their scores of states. Iqbal Z Pune, India
May 30, 2009 12:00 AM 5	IqbalZ, >> Kashmir Valley, Hindus have been expelled in toto... Aberrations such as in Kashmir, Gujarat or Orissa do not make the rule, however horrid they may be. India is a vast country, and Hindus are safe and prospering in 96% of India. Kashmir is a war zone. And far more Muslims than Hindus have been killed in Kashmir. >> Hindus in what is now Pakistan used to be about a third of the population. It used to be 15%, now it is 2%. Polulation of Muslims in Haryana too has dropped to 4%. The departure of the British and the partition of the country created a havoc for the subcontinent. However at this time there are more Hindus in the world than ever before, and they are stronger both militarily and morally, except for some cowards who will never feel safe whatever happens. Anwar Patel Dallas Tx, United States
May 30, 2009 12:00 AM 6	Our resident musalmaan mongrel still seems to be at his game of defending and white-washing Koran inspired mass-murder Lungi-boy >> "Kashmir, Gujarat or Orissa do not make the rule, however horrid they may be" Wonder what was the percentage reduction of minority population in Gujarat or Orissa? In Kashmir valley, Hindus have practically disappeared. Lungi-boy >> "It used to be 15%, now it is 2%. Polulation of Muslims in Haryana too has dropped to 4%" Here we go again - whitewashing the near elimination of minorities in the nation, where his loyalties lie. >> "However at this time there are more Hindus in the world than ever before" Hence, it must be perfectly OK that they have been nearly eliminated from Kashmir valley , Bangladesh and Pakistan.... lookout bug me not mumbai, India
May 30, 2009 12:00 AM 7	ANWAR PATEL: Mai I point out that in the Middle East Muslims and Arabs control not less than 99.75 per cent of all lands (Israel is a mere 0.25 percent of Arab lands). So, why your hulaballo about Muslim suffering in the Middle East? In Palestine, in any case, the Arabs are in a war zone. Infinitely more Arabs are killed by brother Arabs than were ever killed by the Jewish cousins. So by your standards (as applied to Hindu claims), the Palestininas have no cause worth making a fuss about. Relax ! There are far more Muslims today than there ever were. Only people like you who see Islam as weak and vulnerable are likely to whine about Muslim causes. As you know there is nothing unsecular about supporting Hamas and Hizbollah, I take it you are a supporter of the BJP and Shiv Sena as well? After all, they are secular. They defend Hindu interests, not the interests of Hinduism as a religion. Vajpayee even drinks whisky, like Jinnah. All of them are full secular: BJP, Shiv sena, Hamas and Hizbollah. Iqbal Z Pune, India
May 30, 2009 12:00 AM 8	A few typos below. Iqbal Z Pune, India
May 31, 2009 12:00 AM 9	iqbal z one of the problems of the palestine arabs i large families. some women have 10 to 14 kids. the population has probably gone up six times in last 40 years. this is an american conspiracy, for not takeing action. america should now resettle them near new york, where they can be cared for by cair, or perhaps dallas . banitoadolfo roma, Italy
May 31, 2009 12:00 AM 10	Iqbal Z, >> Arabs control not less than 99.75 per cent of all lands. It would be interesting to see how you react if someone wrests your house from you and tells you that there are lots of houses available where many of your kind of people live. >> Infinitely more Arabs are killed by brother Arabs than were ever killed by the Jewish cousins. Americans murder 9,300 other Americans every year, so when Al Qaeda killed 3,000 Americans on 9/11, the U.S. government should not have made any fuss! Do you think at all before you post your messages? Anwar Patel Dallas Tx, United States
May 31, 2009 12:00 AM 11	ANWAR PATEL: Your post: " >>Arabs control not less than 99.75 per cent of all lands. It would be interesting to see how you react if someone wrests your house from you and tells you that there are lots of houses available where many of your kind of people live. >> Infinitely more Arabs are killed by brother Arabs than were ever killed by the Jewish cousins. Americans murder 9,300 other Americans every year, so when Al Qaeda killed 3,000 Americans on 9/11, the U.S. government should not have made any fuss! Do you think at all before you post your messages? " Precisely ! That is how I react to your pooh-poohing of Hindu concerns about the complete ouster of our community from the Kashmir Valley and growing Islamic takeover of many other parts of India. So I take it you are a supporter of the BJP and Shiv Sena, since you have no problem as a secularist with supporting Hamas and Hizbollah? Iqbal Z Pune, India
May 31, 2009 12:00 AM 12	iqbal z israel is faceing its arab enemies. none requires an excuse- its a fight for their respectives rights. many such conflicts have happened in the past- in any case india supports israel for its own interests. muslims in india support hamas etc. are you surprised.? banitoadolfo roma, Italy
May 31, 2009 12:00 AM 13	Iqbal Z, >> That is how I react to your pooh-poohing of Hindu concerns about the complete ouster of our community from the Kashmir Valley. Except that I fully support the right of the Pandits to return. Both the GOI and the state government of Kashmir have the duty and obligation to bring about conditions which conduce to their safe return. >> and growing Islamic takeover of many other parts of India. Muslims cannot take over any "other parts" of India. You are crying wolf just in order to spread fear and hate. I do however favor fighting illegal immigration and promoting family planning. All you do is carry on a campaign of hate and fear. You do not have any constructive practical ideas. Anwar Patel Dallas Tx, United States
May 31, 2009 12:00 AM 14	ANWAR PATEL Israel's cause too, can be presented as secular by the same methids you use to present Islamist parties like Hamas and Hizbollah as OK for secularists to support. Israel and Zionism have legionsof non-Jewish and secularist supporters. Zionism was led by a man like Ben Gurion who was a self-professed aetheist. Zionism was supported by nopted aetheist and Marxist writers like Jean-Paul Sartre and Isaac Deutscher; there are indications that in his last years even Leon Trotsky had some sympathy with the idea of a Jewish nation state. Does that all make Zionism a sond secular cause? The BJP and the Hindu nationalists, too, have had their non-Hindu supporters, lkeGeorge Fernandes and Konraad Elst. Sarvarkar is claimed to have been an aetheist. Iqbal Z Pune, India
May 31, 2009 12:00 AM 15	Some typos below. Incidentally, Israel could never have been established without arms shipments authorised by the aetheist and Leftwing USSR. Iqbal Z Pune, India
May 31, 2009 12:00 AM 16	Iqbal Z, >> Israel's cause too, can be presented as secular. You brought in the question of secularism in the Middle East conflict. It is irrelevant and asinine. It is a land issue and a justice issue. Anwar Patel Dallas Tx, United States
May 31, 2009 12:00 AM 17	ANWAR PATEL: Hindu nationalism, too, is a land issue and a justice issue. Such as the loss of Hindu lands to Islamists in Kashmir and the expulsion of Hindus from Pakistan and Bangladesh on a far bigger scale than happened to Muslims in India. Everyone has his cause. Don't try to degrade the Hindu cause as bigoted while claiming Muslim causes are secular. That is your chief, hypocritical tactic. I have caught you out. From now on life will not be so easy for you on this website. Iqbal Z Pune, India
May 31, 2009 12:00 AM 18	>> Muslims cannot take over any "other parts" of India. One of the more stupid statements made on this forum, and that is saying something. Al Bundy San Francisco, United States
Jun 01, 2009 12:00 AM 19	ANWAR PATEL's type of extreme Islamism put forward in a moderate tone is far more dangerous than the noisy Islamism. In the Zionist movement, too, there were those like Begin who supported bloody terrorism in the name of national freedom. But the main part of the Zionist movement rejected that absurd and immoral doctrine, and that is why Zionism earned respect. It is because of millions of Anwar Patels, sitting in decent and liberal countries and teaching their children that Islamist extremism is OK in Lebanon or Israel or Iraq or Afghanistan because the cause of the throat-cutters (cutters of Muslim throats, mostly) is "freedom", that the ground is created for extremist acts. Iqbal Z Pune, India

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