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National  / Cover Stories / Opinion Magazine | May 25, 2009
Opinion
Dear Shri Advani
As a proud Hindu and a proud Indian, I feel vilified by you. You have reduced the great Sanatana philosophy to a Taliban-style Hindutva
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The 'pseudo-secularists' have won. And won stunningly. The small print in the triumph ("victory" is too soft a description) is breathtaking. Savour.
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Left or Right, extremist politics cannot have a permanent place in Indian politics.
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Opinion
BJP's one innovative idea - black money — was too esoteric, too late.
Ashok Malik
Opinion
The UPA has won a more convincing victory than I had hoped for: getting close to a majority on its own.
Khushwant Singh
Opinion
In the end, Andhra Pradesh and Tamil Nadu and Kerala and even Karnataka made all the difference.
T.J.S. George
Opinion
With the BSP, that is. The fascinating results in UP call into question the relevance of caste-based mobilisation
Zoya Hasan
Uttar Pradesh
When he first mooted that the Congress go it alone in Uttar Pradesh, the pundits laughed Rahul Gandhi out and predicted a wipeout for the party in the state...
Sharat Pradhan
andhra pradesh
"If the Congress comes back to power, give me credit; if it loses, hold me responsible," he had said...
Venugopal Pillai
Opinion
Chiranjeevi. The future of whose Praja Rajyam is as uncertain as the speculation over its possible impact on the results
Jyotirmaya Sharma
Opinion
But the lady changes her mind so often that you cannot take her seriously. Who is to say how long she will respect the new-formed alliance she has entered into?
Sunil Gangopadhyay
West bengal
"They wanted to uproot us from our lands so we uprooted them."
Dola Mitra
tamil nadu
Gobsmacked. And that is only one of the stunned reactions to the surprising verdict
Pushpa Iyengar
Maharashtra
As trends became clear by afternoon, an irrepressible Raj Thackeray declared: "The Shiv Sena ate into my vote"...
Smruti Koppikar
Opinion
This will yield a democratic dividend through the adoption of competitive good governance by all political parties, which so far have tended to outdo each other in competitive populism.
Rajiv Kumar
Opinion
There are too many parties, too many leaders, too many analysts, too much alphabet soup—do we really need DMK, PMK, AIADMK and DMDK? Can anyone really tell them apart?
Jason Overdorf
Bihar
Bihar, Rajasthan, Uttar Pradesh, Madhya Pradhesh
Saikat Datta
Opinion
"Exit polls often go wrong," I said. "In fact, I have a magic machine that produces equally reliable figures." "Show," he demanded.
Saeed Naqvi
Election 2009
Poriborton, Game-changer, Baloongra, Pappu
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Why is Samajwadi Party's symbol the 'Cycle'? Why is Congress symbol 'Hand'?
A cartoonist's wishing line catches a few implausibilities
I was asked to write about whether it was a daunting experience for me, an independent, to contest against you, a mighty prime ministerial candidate. I choose to write a letter to you instead. By the time you read this, the election results will be out. You will either have lost or won. Either way, what I have to say to you will stand.

I am a post-Independence Indian. I was brought up to value and treasure my unique Indianness, to value our Constitution, which gives equal rights to all Indians, irrespective of belief, culture, practice or language. I learnt to revel in the differences that made us a rainbow country. We are a salad-like melange of cultures and not a soup where all variations get reduced to a homogeneous pulp—this, to me, is our greatest strength.

Instead of the hunger, thirst and soul-chilling deprivations that our people still suffer, you talk of swords and trishuls. Instead of the lynching of Dalits and the rape of thousands of women and girls, you speak of building temples and destroying mosques. Instead of propagating the Hindu thought of vasudhaiva kutumbakam (the world is my family), you split our family into religions and tell all "others" to get out or live as minions in their own country.

As a proud Hindu and a proud Indian, I feel vilified by you. You have reduced the great Sanatana philosophy to a Taliban-style Hindutva. As an Indian, you have tried to reduce my identity to a single factor—Hindu or not. You let your goons, saffron-clad terror units wielding lathis and worse, terrorise us and live above the laws of this country. And above all, you claim that the rath yatra, the starting point of all terrorism in this country and the fountainhead of blood-spilling in recent years, is your greatest achievement.

Every Monday, throughout the campaign, I asked you some questions. Neither you nor your public relations people nor the hip netizens on your team acknowledged or answered them. So let me list some of them again:

1 What efforts have you made towards opportunities for education and livelihood generation in the rural areas of Gandhinagar constituency?

2 Have you used your funds under the MPLAD scheme to benefit the deprived and underprivileged in your constituency?

3 What has the BJP done to make available affordable housing to the citizens of Gandhinagar constituency in the last two decades?

4 Several lakh depositors lost their savings in the cooperative bank scams of 2003. At least three BJP candidates who contested the election this year were involved in the scams. What have you done for the depositors?

5 How would you ensure that particular communities are not victimised with the anti-terror laws that you are proposing?

6 Did the money accepted by your party's then president Bangaru Laxman come from a Swiss bank account, or was it swadeshi black money?

7 Some 35,000 families live in Ramapir No Tekro, where there are 10 toilets each for men and women, which open at 8 am and close at 6 pm. But as they are ragpickers, they go to work at 4 am. Are they, and some nine lakh similar citizens in your constituency, who lack drinking water, roads and social security, partners in your Vibrant Gujarat?

No, Mr Advani, I am not daunted by you. I may have lost this election, but I will continue to work for the disadvantaged and dispossessed, and to ensure that their voice shall be silenced no more.

Sincerely,
Mallika

(The writer is a dancer and social activist who contested from Gandhinagar.)

Also In This Story   
Opinion
The 'pseudo-secularists' have won. And won stunningly. The small print in the triumph ("victory" is too soft a description) is breathtaking. Savour.
Vinod Mehta
winning team UPA
Manmohan's sincerity and some sound strategy won UPA this election
Smita Gupta
ELection 2009
It's the dawn of a dark era for the BJP. The party has to re-examine its basics.
Opinion
Left or Right, extremist politics cannot have a permanent place in Indian politics.
Ajith Pillai
big players
Prakash Karat, Mayawati, Ashok Gehlot, J. Jayalalitha, Naveen Patnaik, Chandrababu Naidu
Opinion
BJP's one innovative idea - black money — was too esoteric, too late.
Ashok Malik
Opinion
The UPA has won a more convincing victory than I had hoped for: getting close to a majority on its own.
Khushwant Singh
Opinion
In the end, Andhra Pradesh and Tamil Nadu and Kerala and even Karnataka made all the difference.
T.J.S. George
Opinion
With the BSP, that is. The fascinating results in UP call into question the relevance of caste-based mobilisation
Zoya Hasan
Uttar Pradesh
When he first mooted that the Congress go it alone in Uttar Pradesh, the pundits laughed Rahul Gandhi out and predicted a wipeout for the party in the state...
Sharat Pradhan
andhra pradesh
"If the Congress comes back to power, give me credit; if it loses, hold me responsible," he had said...
Venugopal Pillai
Opinion
Chiranjeevi. The future of whose Praja Rajyam is as uncertain as the speculation over its possible impact on the results
Jyotirmaya Sharma
Opinion
But the lady changes her mind so often that you cannot take her seriously. Who is to say how long she will respect the new-formed alliance she has entered into?
Sunil Gangopadhyay
West bengal
"They wanted to uproot us from our lands so we uprooted them."
Dola Mitra
tamil nadu
Gobsmacked. And that is only one of the stunned reactions to the surprising verdict
Pushpa Iyengar
Maharashtra
As trends became clear by afternoon, an irrepressible Raj Thackeray declared: "The Shiv Sena ate into my vote"...
Smruti Koppikar
Opinion
This will yield a democratic dividend through the adoption of competitive good governance by all political parties, which so far have tended to outdo each other in competitive populism.
Rajiv Kumar
Opinion
There are too many parties, too many leaders, too many analysts, too much alphabet soup—do we really need DMK, PMK, AIADMK and DMDK? Can anyone really tell them apart?
Jason Overdorf
Bihar
Bihar, Rajasthan, Uttar Pradesh, Madhya Pradhesh
Saikat Datta
Opinion
"Exit polls often go wrong," I said. "In fact, I have a magic machine that produces equally reliable figures." "Show," he demanded.
Saeed Naqvi
Election 2009
Poriborton, Game-changer, Baloongra, Pappu
Elections 2009
Why is Samajwadi Party's symbol the 'Cycle'? Why is Congress symbol 'Hand'?
A cartoonist's wishing line catches a few implausibilities
 
Daily MailPublished
COLLAPSE COMMENTS :
HAVE YOUR SAY
May 27, 2009 12:00 AM
135
>>I have no desire to denounce the Catholic Church as such for its history of anti-semitism, any more than than I condemn Hinduism as such for caste oppression.

I have no desire to defend individual catholics whose standard of conduct falls below what their faith demands. In such cases, their faith is an adequate weapon to correct and chastise them without leaping to conclusion that a defectiveness of their faith was the cause for such sub-standard conduct.

And I have always believed that most Hindus live in exemplary manner even though their faith doesn't concern itself about standards of right or wrong conduct except in mind numbing rituals. If the majority of Hindus didn't live way above what their faith requires, the country would have been even a bigger hellhole than it is.

>>I remain astonished that you are so dismissive of the Kristallnacht, a pogrom that is reported to have caused many hundred Jews to commit suicide as welkl as the ones murdered, and which was unprecedented in peacetime in civilized Western countries, going back many decades.

I never said Kristallnacht was good. Failing to keep matters in perspective is the ever present danger in evaluating any historical event. Your claim it was the worst thing ever to happen in history means your judgment is way off.

>>It was an infamy, and so was the Church's failure to condemn it. If you feel that was fine, I won't argue.

I will not defend anyone who have demonstrably shown to be in the wrong. In other words, there are no sacred cows. I am an equal opportunity critic.
Augustus aaa
Pune, India
May 27, 2009 12:00 AM
134
BANITADOLFO / LALIT BAGAI:

Dear Lalit

Many thanks for your kindly thoughts.

I have no hard feelings against Augustus AAA, who as you know is none other than our longtime friend on this website, Old Mac.

I have often enjoyed his postings, especially the ones taking cracks at "chaddis". I never lost the sense ofbhim as a good guy, at bottom.

What surprised me over this latest spat is his seeming loss of his sense of humour and stubborn pretence that Christian anti-semitism isn't important. It took me aback. It's unlike him.

Well, if we all met, how we would be amazed at each other? What do you think each of us looks like? we have been coprresponding for years and still haven't a clue.....What does Ghulam Faruki look like?

So how is your famous hedge fund doing? Are you still in Kallundborg?



Well,
Iqbal Z
Pune, India
May 27, 2009 12:00 AM
133
AUGUSTUS AAA:

I have no desire to denounce the Catholic Church as such for its history of anti-semitism, any more than than I condemn Hinduism as such for caste oppression.

There can be atonement and reform in both cases.

In both cases I do not doubt that there were and are sincere and decent believers.

In my anger I went overboard with harsh language.

I remain astonished that you are so dismissive of the Kristallnacht, a pogrom that is reported to have caused many hundred Jews to commit suicide as welkl as the ones murdered, and which was unprecedented in peacetime in civilized Western countries, going back many decades. It was an infamy, and so was the Church's failure to condemn it. If you feel that was fine, I won't argue.
Iqbal Z
Pune, India
May 27, 2009 12:00 AM
132
>>It is only with utter disgust that I, for one final time, bother to answer a moral leper like you.

It is only with utter indifference that I bother to respond to a boil on humanity's ass like you.

>>The Pope having done something to save a small remnant of European Jewry during the Second World War in no way exculpates the Church for a two millennia history of rabid anti-semitism, a central fact of history.

First you deny he did anything now you say he did something small. However, according to your incoherent babbling he and his faith are infected with congenital anti-semitism, why should he have done even that? It is inconsistent with your hypothesized anti-semitic dummy that babies like you suck on...

>>Any more than Winston Curchill's condemnation of the Amritsar Massacre proves Britian had no guilty history of anti-Indian race hatred. Or that some belated act of American decency toward Blacks wipes out the dreadful history of slavery in the US. Only a cretin without an ounce of brain or an atom of conscience would argue like that.

Brains and Conscience; two subjects you are well advised not to bring up in talking to me. You aren't even in the same league as I am.

>>Orwell once pointed out that one could not argue with a man who denied that there was a German invasion of France in 1914; one cannot hope to convince those who deliberately or out of sheer moronism deny the basic events of history.

And you prove that fact every time you open your mouth!

>>Not a single serious historian of the Holocaust or of modern Europe fails to attribute it to the age-old Christian hatred of Jews. The write about it at huge lenght.

As huge length as your ignorance?

>>If that is on my side,

the only thing on your side is sweat pouring out of your pores...

>>all serious modern scholarship, why should I waste time on a brainless back-street vulgarian like you who denies such a fundamental fact of world history?

That must be why you rage like that lunatic and I denude with methodical efficiency

>>Absolutely pointless: like trying to convince some Hindu bigot who denies there is any such thing as caste oppression in India.

Or convince some vacuous bigot like you there is discrimination against Muslims in India....

>>And what brain-dead logic you show: I point out the horrific fact that the Catholic Church failed to condemn even the Kristallnacht riots, a murderous event with no modern precedent in any civilized coutry

If 91 dead jews and 20k-30k deported is your idea of a horrific act with "no modern precedent," you aren't to be trusted with even a scissors.

>>and which shocked world opinion and set the secene for the Holocaust.....You respond by talking about the Gujarat riots against Muslims, as though I supported them !!! Bizarre!!!!

Talking about facts and denuding you of what little intellectual dignity you have left is something I enjoy immensely.

>>One does badly to argue with the denizens of the moral and intellectual gutter.

One Iq Balz does badly every time he opens his mouth...
Augustus aaa
Pune, India
May 27, 2009 12:00 AM
131
iqbal

i have watched tv documentaries about how poles,
hungarians, french helped round up jews for the
nazis. everyone should be aware of this.

one of the few nations which helped jews was denmark, and this has been acknowleged by israel.

there is no point in argueing with muslim , christian or secular fanatics in this forum.
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
May 27, 2009 12:00 AM
130
"They write about it at huge length", I should have said below.

There are a few other typos too.
Iqbal Z
Pune, India
May 27, 2009 12:00 AM
129
AUGUSTUS AAA:

It is only with utter disgust that I, for one final time, bother to answer a moral leper like you.

The Pope having done something to save a small remnant of European Jewry during the Second World War in no way exculpates the Church for a two millennia history of rabid anti-semitism, a central fact of history. Any more than Winston Curchill's condemnation of the Amritsar Massacre proves Britian had no guilty history of anti-Indian race hatred. Or that some belated act of American decency toward Blacks wipes out the dreadful history of slavery in the US. Only a cretin without an ounce of brain or an atom of conscience would argue like that.

Orwell once pointed out that one could not argue with a man who denied that there was a German invasion of France in 1914; one cannot hope to convince those who deliberately or out of sheer moronism deny the basic events of history.

Not a single serious historian of the Holocaust or of modern Europe fails to attribute it to the age-old Christian hatred of Jews. The write about it at huge lenght. If that is on my side, all serious modern scholarship, why should I waste time on a brainless back-street vulgarian like you who denies such a fundamental fact of world history? Absolutely pointless: like trying to convince some Hindu bigot who denies there is any such thing as caste oppression in India.

And what brain-dead logic you show: I point out the horrific fact that the Catholic Church failed to condemn even the Kristallnacht riots, a murderous event with no modern precedent in any civilized coutry and which shocked world opinion and set the secene for the Holocaust.....You respond by talking about the Gujarat riots against Muslims, as though I supported them !!! Bizarre!!!!

One does badly to argue with the denizens of the moral and intellectual gutter.

Poor Jesus, what has he done to have defenders like this !!!!
Iqbal Z
Pune, India
May 26, 2009 12:00 AM
128
>>When war broke out, the Vatican realised that European Jewry, against which it had led a nearly two thousand year long campaign of massive, daily, murderous hate, slander and calumny, was facing outright extermination at the hands of Hitler. It chose not to speak out openly. It made some private admonitions, and saved a small portion of the wretched victims.

But why? Two thousand years of propaganda coming to fruition would have excited them into becoming cheerleaders.

>>The vast majority of Jews went to the gas chambers, hapless victims of centuries of Church hate propaganda.

And Golda Meier, out of some conspiracy to join the Catholics in secretly celebrating the holocaust, telegraphed to the Vatican on Pius's death in 1958: "When fearful martyrdom came to our people in the decade of Nazi terror, the voice of the Pope was raised for the victims. The life of our times was enriched by a voice speaking out on the great moral truths above the tumult of daily conflict. We mourn a great servant of peace." Surely, the pope would have gotten such eulogies from the Jews even if your hallucinations were even remotely true!

>>Apparently not horrified even NOW, the Church turned its efforts after the war to enabling many Nazi war criminals, reeking of Jewish blood, to escape justice.

I think we have already safely flushed your credibility down the toilet to its right place.

>>You need to have your heart hardened to stone by these ghastly, cold-blooded, ultra-pharasaical churches to be like Augustus AAA and still try to exculpate the Church by pretending it was all the fault of Hindus.

I just have a hard-headed respect for facts to dismiss lunatic ravings of low rent clowns like you.

>>Someone spent decades inciting a thug against an innocent family, poisoning the thug's mind with...

Yawn?

>>The Church has never atoned for its two millennia-long crime of slander and oubursts of mass murder against Jews. You, Augustus, dare not even address it.

Which puzzlingly explains the existence of diplomatic relations between the Vatican and State of Israel as you read this. Given Jewish thirst for revenge (e.g. Eichman), it would overlook such complicity to have cordial diplomatic relations with the Vatican

>>I thought you would be stupid enough to bring up the case of Subhas Bose, the foolish Indian nationalist who let his rage against Britain lead him to collaborate with Hitler.

Is that how you deal with the facts?

>>A cheap diversionary tactic entirely worthy of your hyenic self. Only a moron would assume Bose was a spokesman for Hinduism.

As one hyena to another, facts are facts; no amount of pettifogging will undo the facts. What about all the hindus learning German expecting to salute Heil Hitler? Did they speak out?
Augustus aaa
Pune, India
May 26, 2009 12:00 AM
127
Iqbalz writes:

>>The true story of the Vatican and Hitler seems to be that when the Vatican could have safely done very much against Nazism - BEFORE the Second World War broke out - it chose to either eulogise him as in the letter I quoted, celebrate the tyrant's birthday in its churches, or make no forthright attacks on him in public.

After WWII, we found out that political parties that talk like nazis will walk like nazis after seeing the films made by the liberating armies of the concentration camps where bodies were stacked up like cordwood. Thus your BJP friends talk like Nazis and will probably walk like them as well.

>>Had the Catholic Church clearly warned Germany's many millions of Catholics not to vote for Hitler, he might well not even have got to power.

Would have, could have, should have isn’t history….just hallucinatory self-serving interpretation to support feigned indignation…

>>If the Vatican had come out clearly and openly against the Nazis in the 1930s, this would have changed the political balance of forces against fascism in strongly Catholic countries like France and Austria.

Are you admitting Vatican has such political power without a single gun, soldier or tank? If so, what is your basis for that?

>>In such countries, strong Catholics tended to favour fascism, and this undermined the countries' resistance against Hitler when war broke out. By its policy, the Church helped Hitler conquer Europe.

Are we done with your claim that the Catholics, motivated and taught by Catholicism, killed the jews or at least were silent? And superior weapons and tactics by the German army, the lack of preparation by France, England’s hope for appeasement were all irrelevant or incidental to the Nazi’s initial success?

>>The Vatican even failed to condemn so great and horrific a crime as the mass slaughter of Jews in the 1938 Kristallnacht.

How great and a horrific a crime was Kristallnacht so I can get a measure of your historical grounding?

Kristallnacht was triggered by the assassination of German diplomat Ernst vom Rath by Herschel Grynszpan, a German-born Polish Jew. In a coordinated attack on Jewish people and their property, 91 Jews were murdered and 25,000 to 30,000 were arrested and deported to concentration camps.

You want to compare with Gujarat?
Augustus aaa
Pune, India
May 26, 2009 12:00 AM
126
AUGUSTUS AAA:

1-- Direction to 12 disciples from Jesus- Matthew 10/5 - These twelve Jesus sent out with following instructions "Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. Go gather the lost sheep of Israel"
2--Matthew 10/23- When you are persecuted in one place flee to another. You will not finish going through the cities of Israel before the son of man comes. (Jesus expected his disciples to go throw cities of Israel thus implying that his gospel is only for Israel)
3- Matthew 15/24-26-Jesus to Canaanite Woman. I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel. It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to their dogs (Non Jews are dogs).
Akil
Bangalore, India
May 26, 2009 12:00 AM
125
sandilya

bose may not be your ideal.

however he did what ever he did to free india from british rule.

in fact his efforts helped.

the british labour govt was already inclined to
leave india. the mutiny of indians in the army tipped them further in this direction.

as far as gandhi is concerned the britts were not bothered. if britain was not so weakened by war, and had churchill as pm, indias freedom would have been much delayed.
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
May 26, 2009 12:00 AM
124
I thought you would be stupid enough to bring up the case of Subhas Bose, the foolish Indian nationalist who let his rage against Britain lead him to collaborate with Hitler.

IQBAL Z

I salute your guts for saying what you said.

I hold the same view aa, and I had not yet come across any who said Subhas was foolish.

Ramachandra Guha in his Email correspondence indirectly agreed with me but wouldn't say imperitively what you had said.

I wonder how people of his time believed Bose would fetch them freedom fighting the British with a bunch of emotionally driven dumb guys holding 303 rifles. Was British power so easy to topple?In its entire history British never lost a war.

And we still entertain that Bose would have brought us better India. Despite his deficiencies Gandhi's greatest contribution remains sidelining of Bose, who otherwise would only have brought us misery of a civil war a la Prabhakaran to Tamils.
The romantic stories about his association with Hitler etc are all fairy tales. Hitler did not even give him interview and went on to say that British rule was the best thing happened to India in millenia!! Hitler refused to associate with Bose ( Rise & Fall of Third Reich by W.Shirer)
sandilya
Chennai, India
May 26, 2009 12:00 AM
123
AUGUSTUS AAA:

The true story of the Vatican and Hitler seems to be that when the Vatican could have safely done very much against Nazism - BEFORE the Second World War broke out - it chose to either eulogise him as in the letter I quoted, celebrate the tyrant's birthday in its churches, or make no forthright attacks on him in public.

Had the Catholic Church clearly warned Germany's many millions of Catholics not to vote for Hitler, he might well not even have got to power.

If the Vatican had come out clearly and openly against the Nazis in the 1930s, this would have changed the political balance of forces against fascism in strongly Catholic countries like France and Austria. In such countries, strong Catholics tended to favour fascism, and this undermined the countries' resistance against Hitler when war broke out. By its policy, the Church helped Hitler conquer Europe.

The Vatican even failed to condemn so great and horrific a crime as the mass slaughter of Jews in the 1938 Kristallnacht.

When war broke out, the Vatican realised that European Jewry, against which it had led a nearly two thousand year long campaign of massive, daily, murderous hate, slander and calumny, was facing outright extermination at the hands of Hitler. It chose not to speak out openly. It made some private admonitions, and saved a small portion of the wretched victims.

The vast majority of Jews went to the gas chambers, hapless victims of centuries of Church hate propaganda.

Apparently not horrified even NOW, the Church turned its efforts after the war to enabling many Nazi war criminals, reeking of Jewish blood, to escape justice.

What a record ! What a record !!!

If I were a Christian, I would have been FRIGHTENED and horrified at supporting any policy harmful, not alone murderous, toward the people who are Jesus' flesh-and-blood kin - the House of David ! You need to have your heart hardened to stone by these ghastly, cold-blooded, ultra-pharasaical churches to be like Augustus AAA and still try to exculpate the Church by pretending it was all the fault of Hindus.

The Catholic Church makes the pharisees Jesus railed against seem frank and honest by comparison.

One could illustrate the Catholic Church's sheer cold-hearted perfidy and callousness in the Nazi affair with an allegory:

Someone spent decades inciting a thug against an innocent family, poisoning the thug's mind with the most murderous slanders and calumnies against the family, day after day. The thug in the end tortured and killed the father, mother, and all the children of this family, except one. This child, whose spine was shattered, was hidden at the last minute by the person who had inspired the thug. When called to order for his heinous crime, the inspirer said blithely: "But I'm the one who saved that child! Isn't that important? I am innocent. Anyway, Augustus AAA has explained it's all the fault of the Hindus."

The Church has never atoned for its two millennia-long crime of slander and oubursts of mass murder against Jews. You, Augustus, dare not even address it.

What will you all tell Jesus, when you meet him? If I were a Christian, I would be scared.

I thought you would be stupid enough to bring up the case of Subhas Bose, the foolish Indian nationalist who let his rage against Britain lead him to collaborate with Hitler. A cheap diversionary tactic entirely worthy of your hyenic self. Only a moron would assume Bose was a spokesman for Hinduism.
Iqbal Z
Pune, India
May 26, 2009 12:00 AM
122
iqbal

there is a book called the odessa file, written by frederik forsythe- it mentioned that the vatican had helped nazi,s to escape to south america,

prisoner in the vatican- starring gregory peck,
has also a bit about the vaticans connection
with the nazi,s in italy.

the vatican runs a business with due regards to its spiritual and material objectives. it has
treasures of fabulous value . a bit strange for a religion based on the life of jesus christ.
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
May 26, 2009 12:00 AM
121
The problem with Hindutvadis trying to damn Pope Pius for alleged collaboration with Hitler is that some of the Hindutvadi stalwarts themselves were admirers of Hitler, Nazism and racialist theories. I do not excuse the Vatican, but am amused by the two-facedness of the Hindutvadis.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
May 25, 2009 12:00 AM
120
If you are ready to graduate from wearing intellectual diapers, try this and see if you can maintain bowel control


http://findarticles.com...54/is_3_45/ai_n6140125/

Augustus aaa
Pune, India
May 25, 2009 12:00 AM
119
Since I know you are incapable of reading more than comic books, stretch your range by atleast giving it a go with a review of one book read by bigger boys...


http://spectator.org/ar...2006/08/18/hitlers-pope


Then, we can start a new thread of Nazi collaboration of Bose and some Indians who began learning German when their panzer divisions were cutting up Europe. Then, we can assess your contrived indignation...
Augustus aaa
Pune, India
May 25, 2009 12:00 AM
118
a couple of typos below
Iqbal Z
Pune, India
May 25, 2009 12:00 AM
117
Trying to blame the Hindus for it just marks you out as a moral leper as well as a contemptible moron.

IQBAL Z

Well said!! Thanks Iqbal for your efforts to dig out such privileged communication between Herr Hitler and the Pontif to throw light on the real attitude of church to Nazism.
sandilya
Chennai, India
May 25, 2009 12:00 AM
116
AUGUSTUS AAA:

Pope Pius XII took office in February 1939. He then sent the following letter to Hitler:

"To the Illustrious Herr Adolf Hitler, Fuhrer and Chancellor of the German Reich! Here at the beginning of our Pontificate We wish to assure you that We remain devoted to the spiritual welfare of the German people entrusted to your leadership....During the many years that we spent in Germany, We did all in Our power to establish harmonious relations between Church and State. Now that the responsibilities of Our pastoral function have increased our Opportunities, how much more ardently do We pray to reach that goal."

Hitler's first treaty was an agreement with the Vatican. In return for privileges for the Church, the Holy See ordred the large Catholic Centre Party to disband, and ordred Catholics to not to engage in political opposition to the Nazi regime.

Catholic parish records were made available to the Nazis to help them establish who was "racially impure" and therefore subject to the unexampled savagery of the Nuremberg laws against Jews, before being exterminated.

The Catholic Church ordered an annual celebration of Hitler's birthday on April 20. On that day, on papal instructions, the Cardinal of Berlin regularly sent " warmest congratulations to the Fuhrer in the name of the bishops and dioceses of Germany", assuring Hitler that he could count on "the fervent prayers which the Cathoilcs of Germany are sending to heaven on their altars".

It has been established that about 25 per cent of Hitler's elite killer units, the SS, were practising Catholics. No Catholic was ever even threatened with excommunication for participating in war crimes.

Goebbels was excommunicated much earlier, true.....for marrying a Protestant! There can be no more hideously clear example of the Vatican's attitude to Nazism.

After all this, the Vatican's complicity with and silence about Nazi crimes in the war is hardly surprising. A noted Catholic historian, Paul Johnson, has his to say:

"Both Catholic and Lutheran anti-semitism had contributed, over many centurues, to the Jew-hatred which culminated in Hitlerism.....Pope Pius XII, in particulr, had failed to condemn the Final Solution (i.e. the mass extermination of the Jews) though he knew of it."

The collaboration of the Catholic Church with fascism and Nazism continued even after the Second World War. Wanted Nazi war criminals were helped to escape to South America via the infamous "rat line" established by the Vatican. The Vatican provided the passports, documents, money and contacts to help these monsters reeking of Jewish blood to escape.

Still think the Hindus can be blamed for it all?

Your "argiment" is about the most disgusting one has met with.

All you can do is pretend that the hard work so many serious historians have done to establish what Christian Jew-hatred did to make the Holocaust possible doesn't exist.

It is hard to think of a parallel for such hideous disingenuousness. Denying that Blacks in the US ever suffered racism, or that there is caste prejudice in India would be some rather weak comparisons to your attempt to cover up the fundamental importance of two thousand years of rabid, endlessly and massively propagated, Christian Jew-hatred in making the Holocaust possible. Without it, Hitler's ranting and raving would never have evoked the mass response that he got in Germany, or the ardent collaboration the Nazi Jew-killers found in a host of Christian countries like Rumania, France, Italy, the Ukraine, etc.

Trying to blame the Hindus for it just marks you out as a moral leper as well as a contemptible moron.
Iqbal Z
Pune, India
May 25, 2009 12:00 AM
115
nits

for superior attitudes visit christian europe.
try austria, germany even now.

hinduism has made a silent contribution to most
countries of the world ,by introduceing yoga,
meditation, and vegetarianism.

you missionary types with your severe complexes
will allways be unhappy in india.

you will be worse off in post christian europe,
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
May 25, 2009 12:00 AM
114
>> They were pagans not because they used Swastika but for what they believed and acted accordingly

By this criteria, anyone inconvenient can be declared as a pagan. Were the generations who indulged in slave trade pagans, even though they had papal legitimacy?

Was General Dyer a pagan, even though Christian owners and readers of the "Morning Post" raised a huge sum for him, for his "paganic activities" in Punjab, and called the massacre necessary?

What about Goan inquisition? Was St. Francis Xavier, who requested the inquisition a pagan?
Al Bundy
San Francisco, United States
May 25, 2009 12:00 AM
113
>>Calling Nazis pagans for using Swastika (which they did as a symbol or racial superiority, with no relation to religion), is like calling Dyer a Hindu, since he was born in India.

They were pagans not because they used Swastika but for what they believed and acted accordingly....Swastika is merely symbolic of their belief from whence their beliefs ariseth.
Augustus aaa
Pune, India
May 25, 2009 12:00 AM
112
Prakash writes:

>>By the way, Nietzsche never claimed the superiority of any race, that was abuse of the author by the Germans, I see that you have an incomplete education.

Incomplete education is preferable to the nonexistent variety. Once Nietzche's argument is accepted, who is he or you to keep it from applying where his supermen were Germans per Hitler or Brahmins per Brahmins and all others being inferior?

>>The point I said about a 9 year old girl who was raped and had an abortion, was not about equating abortion to murder.

The pope's church does; so you would expect his response to be consistent with it.

>>9 year olds who have kids have low probability of survival. Next is that the kids born from them usually are under weight and have low probability of survival. You are a heartless person to allow such practices.

Those claims and their probabilities of actually coming true are all valid points to be made in a public debate. But we are long ways from making accusation of criminal intent and depraved motives driving the church's actions, no?

>>Do you really want me to take up the problem of the Pope during the Holocaust.

Are you capable of it with something more than an comic book knowledge of history?

>>Pope Pius XII was canonized by John Paul II. While a lot of Catholics took a lot of trouble during this period and must be commended, the Vatican desired a lot more to be done. Wladislaw Raczkiewicz, president of the Polish government-in-exile, appealed to the Pope in January 1943 to publicly denounce Nazi violence. Bishop Preysing of Berlin did the same, at least twice. Pius XII refused. They did some help behind the scene, but it was too little.

are you privy to some internal deliberations and weighing the consequences of one action over another and a decision to silently endorse the nazi violence with silence? If so, I'd like to see it.

>>I see that you also mentioned about the current pope having his own opinions. His opinions are inferred as the opinions of head of a state or of a religion, not that of an individual.

Even then, it is a man's opinion the merit or lack thereof is judged on its own persuasive power. His opinions may carry greater weight for catholics. But not others necessarily merely because he is the pope.

>>If you or I have an opinion, it matters very little. However, such people having opinions must be expressed carefully, as they carry a lot of weight.

Only for people who give it weight!

>>This is the reason that people like Obama are so careful.

Obama has soldiers, guns and nuclear bombs. Pope has only a pulpit.

>>The pope has to learn that he is not a kid at home anymore.

Someone who disagrees with you is by definition a kid at home?
Augustus aaa
Pune, India
May 24, 2009 12:00 AM
111
Augustus >> If you care for facts, it was an Aryan/Pagan mythology and Nietzsche's claim of superiority of some men (supermen) over all others that Nazis implemented with ruthless German efficiency. However, I wouldn't expect you to be familiar with the most basic of historical facts. I have come to expect you to be familiar with the latest comic books.

By the way, Nietzsche never claimed the superiority of any race, that was abuse of the author by the Germans, I see that you have an incomplete education.

The point I said about a 9 year old girl who was raped and had an abortion, was not about equating abortion to murder. 9 year olds who have kids have low probability of survival. Next is that the kids born from them usually are under weight and have low probability of survival. You are a heartless person to allow such practices.

Do you really want me to take up the problem of the Pope during the Holocaust. Pope Pius XII was canonized by John Paul II. While a lot of Catholics took a lot of trouble during this period and must be commended, the Vatican desired a lot more to be done. Wladislaw Raczkiewicz, president of the Polish government-in-exile, appealed to the Pope in January 1943 to publicly denounce Nazi violence. Bishop Preysing of Berlin did the same, at least twice. Pius XII refused. They did some help behind the scene, but it was too little.

I see that you also mentioned about the current pope having his own opinions. His opinions are inferred as the opinions of head of a state or of a religion, not that of an individual. If you or I have an opinion, it matters very little. However, such people having opinions must be expressed carefully, as they carry a lot of weight. This is the reason that people like Obama are so careful. The pope has to learn that he is not a kid at home anymore.
Prakash
San Francisco, United States
May 24, 2009 12:00 AM
110


AUGUSTUS AAA:

Once again, your incredible indifference to the most commonly understood historical facts staggers me.

Can you be serious when you question even Christian antisemtism's role in the Nazi Holocaust?

Read any standard history of the subject. They will all explain how daily inculcation of the "Christ-killer" calumny against the Jews in Christian minds over two millennia by the Church made Christians fiercely anti-semitic.

They will explain how in Christian lands Jews were treated as hated pariahs, denied the right to most common occupations and confined to the GHETTOES (ever heard of them?!!!).

They will explain about the horrifying history of periodic massacres of Jews incited by the Church.

They will explain about the mass expulsion of Jews from Catholic Spain. They will explain about the Catholic Church's Nazi-like paranoia after the Inquision to check if any church officials had Jewish blood.

They will explain about the huge contempt, hate and ridicule ecxpressed against Jews in countless books.

They will explain about the Russian Czars' invoking the Bible to introduce the cruel restrictive laws against Jews in the eighteenth and Ninbeteenth centuries.

They will explain about the Pope's refusal to go against Hitler.

They will explain about the attempt of countless European andoften Christian intellectuals to try and distance themselves from Christian anti-semitism after the Holocaust.

For God's sake, man, do some serious studying !!!

Ironically, it is in India, among Hindus, that Jews have historically never suffered cruelty. They themselves note this. Until the recent Mumbai attack - but that was by Muslims.

Every time you speak you reduce the stock of the most elementary human knowledge.
Iqbal Z
Pune, India
May 24, 2009 12:00 AM
109
>> No. They were pagans using pagan symbols like the swastika.

Calling Nazis pagans for using Swastika (which they did as a symbol or racial superiority, with no relation to religion), is like calling Dyer a Hindu, since he was born in India.
Al Bundy
San Francisco, United States
May 24, 2009 12:00 AM
108
Augustus, I see that you have equated the Tridentate Latin Mass to speaking in Assamese. I do not point out the Latin language. The point is the mass itself. I see that you do not know what the gist of the mass is. Do you know what the goal of the mass is? It essentially says that all Jews have to be converted. I notice that you also conveniently avoided the Dominus Issis, which essentially says that all non-christians are faithless. Go ahead, avoid issues all you want, you fool no one.
Prakash
San Francisco, United States
May 24, 2009 12:00 AM
107
>>Why hasn't Pope excommunicate HITLER and the NAZIS for 64 years since 1945??

Because one excommunicates church members in good standing; not non-members.

>>qualified it by saying that the GOSPEL should be restricted to the "lost sheep of Israel"

Where?

>>Will the German Pope do it even now??? No Sir, because JEW killers are holy warriors.

Is that because there is a Jewish exception to the "Thou shalt not kill" bit?
Augustus aaa
Pune, India
May 24, 2009 12:00 AM
106
>> And any contrary opinion is merely preening liberalism that admires itself in the narcissistic mirror for its stance than its accuracy or concern for real live Africans.

Diversionary and uncalled for.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
May 24, 2009 12:00 AM
105
Iqbalz writes:

>>Look Augustus, you ought to be a bit more honest about the undoubted fundamental importance of two millennia of fierce Christian antisemitic propaganda in making the Nazi Holocaust possible.

undoubted by whom?

>>This is the most degrading crime Christianity has been guilty of, and it is only decent to admit it and apologise wholeheartedly for it, rather than try to deflect the blame to the wretched Hindus. Suggesting Hindus are to blame for Hitler because the Nazis adopted the Swastika is totally absurd.

If you care for facts, it was an Aryan/Pagan mythology and Nietzsche's claim of superiority of some men (supermen) over all others that Nazis implemented with ruthless German efficiency. However, I wouldn't expect you to be familiar with the most basic of historical facts. I have come to expect you to be familiar with the latest comic books.

>>As for Jesus not intending to convert the gentiles, that is a matter of historical record.

A record you haven't the faintest of acquaintance.

>>Try to be honest about these things.

Something you should remind yourself every time you post something.
Augustus aaa
Pune, India
May 24, 2009 12:00 AM
104
AUGUSTUS AAA. PUNE INDIA

Brazilian Bishop excommunicated people for one abortion as brought out by one of the comments. Why hasn't Pope excommunicate HITLER and the NAZIS for 64 years since 1945?? Will the German Pope do it even now??? No Sir, because JEW killers are holy warriors.

Jesus told his disciples to take his teachings to "Judea, Samaria and to the end of the earth" but qualified it by saying that the GOSPEL should be restricted to the "lost sheep of Israel". As for the "END OF EARTH" usage, for a carpenters son that Jesus was, who claimed to be the MESSIAH OF THE LOST SHEEP OF ISRAEL effectively meaning the Jewish community, his "WORLD ENDED WHERE THE JEWISH SETTLEMENT ENDED". So his direction was perfect.

Just read The Gospel of Mathhew and Romans in Bible.
Akil
Bangalore, India
May 24, 2009 12:00 AM
103
>>>>>>The Pope then made the comment that that condoms were no help against AIDS on the way to Africa.

>>>>Isn’t he entitled to his opinion?

>>This is not a matter of opinion.

Then, it must be an empirical matter. The pope will have won the argument given that higher condom usage positively correlates with higher HIV/AIDS incidence in Africa.

And any contrary opinion is merely preening liberalism that admires itself in the narcissistic mirror for its stance than its accuracy or concern for real live Africans--even to those of us who support more condom usage.
Augustus aaa
Pune, India
May 24, 2009 12:00 AM
102
AUGUSTUS AAA:

Look Augustus, you ought to be a bit more honest about the undoubted fundamental importance of two millennia of fierce Christian antisemitic propaganda in making the Nazi Holocaust possible.

This is the most degrading crime Christianity has been guilty of, and it is only decent to admit it and apologise wholeheartedly for it, rather than try to deflect the blame to the wretched Hindus.

Suggesting Hindus are to blame for Hitler because the Nazis adopted the Swastika is totally absurd.

As for Jesus not intending to convert the gentiles, that is a matter of historical record. Try to be honest about these things. Jesus was a Jewish rabbi, and the Bible shows very little indication he was interested in gentiles.
Iqbal Z
Pune, India
May 24, 2009 12:00 AM
101
>>>>The Pope then made the comment that that condoms were no help against AIDS on the way to Africa.
>> Isn’t he entitled to his opinion?

This is not a matter of opinion. The Pope should be condemned just as former South African President Mbeki was condemned for questioning that HIV causes AIDS, or as some Muslim imams were concemned for opposing polio vaccination.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
May 24, 2009 12:00 AM
100
Akil writes:

>>AUGUSTUS, The Nazis you mentioned were Christians, they were held as the upholders of "Christian value" by Church.

No. They were pagans using pagan symbols like the swastika.

>>When the JEWS were being exterminated during holocaust by "CHRISTIN HITLER", the church and Vatican did nothing and probably calibrated for extermination JESUS KILLERS as killing of Jews were encouraged and abetted by Church for centuries. Pope could have "threatened excommunication of HITLER" and it would have prevented the holocaust.

Your history is as amusing as your histrionics.

>>By the way, your Christian Religion will not ensure salvation for you if you are NOT of JEWISH origin as Jesus propounded Christianity for the "lost sheep of Israel" alone.

From where did you pull this theological nugget?

>>When a Samaritan women approached Jesus for treating her daughter Jesus said that "food for children can NOT be given to dog", there by equating all non-Jews to dog.

If you read it correctly, it was a setup question for her response that supposedly demonstrates faith, I am told.

>>During life of Jesus he strictly forbade spreading his teaching to any one but the Jews and it was Peter, who converted the first Non-JEW, a ROMAN to Christianity after death of Jesus.(Read Matthews and Romans in bible)

So, a discipline went against the teaching of his master who said to take his message to Judea, Samaria and to the ends of the earth?

>>It is NOT too late even now, GET YOUR "DNA" tested to see if you are of JEWISH origin, (The Israelis have perfected the science of identifying Jewish dependence for granting emigration to Israel), and if you are not of Jewish origin convert back to Hinduism as Jesus sitting on the right hand side of GOD will disown you as he considers all NON-JEWS as DOGS

Ruff…..Ruff.
Augustus aaa
Pune, India
May 24, 2009 12:00 AM
99
Prakash writes:

>>Augustus, you are being too simplistic in your assumptions.

Let’s test them.

>>Are you for the christian missionaries?

I am for the principle of religious freedom regardless who exercises it. Thus the principle extends to Christian or Hindu or any other missionary.

>>While I am an atheist, I hate the missionaries as much as I hate any religion based hatred.

That’s your right as long as you are lawful in your hatred (i.e. no violence or threats of violence)

>>Let me give you points about the missionaries. For instance, the SSPX (Society of St Paul X) has one of the largest groups in India. Have you seen what they stand for, they are a minority group that is against the changes done by the second vatican council, which liberalized Catholicism.

What they believe is none of my business or yours.

>>For instance, Bishop Williamson is from this group. He is a hate monger. They are into hiding problems that they created. The first is the child abuse in US. There is a very detailed documentary for this, "Deliver Us From Evil".

All legitimate claims are pursued and prosecuted in criminal and civil lawsuits.

>>The next is the church’s heartless reaction to the nine-year-old Brazilian girl who had an abortion after being raped by her stepfather. The Archbishop of Recife declared that everybody involved in procuring the abortion (the girl’s mother, the doctors) was excommunicated.

Heartless because the abortion (killing of a defenseless baby in the church's view) somehow undoes the rape?

>>The Pope then made the comment that that condoms were no help against AIDS on the way to Africa.

And? Isn’t he entitled to his opinion?

>>Given the plethora of problems created by the religion, you can never claim that they are great. Before becoming Pope, he was the Prefect of the Congregation of the Doctrine of Faith. That was famous in its previous name, the Inquisition.

So?

>>In 2007 Benedict cleared the way for wider use of the old, Tridentine Latin mass.

As an atheist, why do you care if they speak their nonsense in Latin or Malayalam?

>>The rite he encouraged includes a prayer on Good Friday that calls for the conversion of the Jews.

Kinda makes sense if they believe unless one is converted they will go to hell, doesn’t it? That’s unless if they don’t give a damn if Jews and others go to hell. Then, there is no need to pray for them.

>>This is entirely consistent with the views of the man who signed off on the Vatican’s 2000 declaration, “Dominus Iesus”, which states that “to consider the Church as [merely] one way of salvation alongside those constituted by the other religions” is “contrary to the faith”. Please look at your facts more, every religion is flawed.

You haven’t made a single relevant point in response to my post. Good luck next time.
Augustus aaa
Pune, India
May 23, 2009 12:00 AM
98
AUGUSTUS AAA, PUNE

AUGUSTUS, The Nazis you mentioned were Christians, they were held as the upholders of "Christian value" by Church. When the JEWS were being exterminated during holocaust by "CHRISTIN HITLER", the church and Vatican did nothing and probably calibrated for extermination JESUS KILLERS as killing of Jews were encouraged and abetted by Church for centuries. Pope could have "threatened excommunication of HITLER" and it would have prevented the holocaust.

By the way, your Christian Religion will not ensure salvation for you if you are NOT of JEWISH origin as Jesus propounded Christianity for the "lost sheep of Israel" alone. When a Samaritan women approached Jesus for treating her daughter Jesus said that "food for children can NOT be given to dog", there by equating all non-Jews to dog. During life of Jesus he strictly forbade spreading his teaching to any one but the Jews and it was Peter, who converted the first Non-JEW, a ROMAN to Christianity after death of Jesus.(Read Matthews and Romans in bible) It is NOT too late even now, GET YOUR "DNA" tested to see if you are of JEWISH origin, (The Israelis have perfected the science of identifying Jewish dependence for granting emigration to Israel), and if you are not of Jewish origin convert back to Hinduism as Jesus sitting on the right hand side of GOD will disown you as he considers all NON-JEWS as DOGS.

Akil
Bangalore, India
May 23, 2009 12:00 AM
97
Mallika ji questions that you asked to Mr Adawnai should be asked from congi traitors as well. You can add few more :
Who bugled Kashmir issue
Why Afzal Guru has not been hanged
Why most deserving person was replaced with a person of dubious background as a President.
No action take against terrorists and separatist movement because of political exigencies.
India still a third world country because wrong congi policies. CONGIS HAVE RULED MOST OF THE TIME IN 67 years.
Threat to internal security at its peak because of congis with jelly knees.
Congis responsible for thwarting conflict of interets bill in the parliament.
Parliament has become a haven for criminals.
With due respect to you I will like to say that your article is nothing but a joke and a rant of a hopeless loser. Do not bother Congis leadership will find place for all losing candidates that they can enjoy at taxpayers money.
India is not a nation but a crowd and politicians a pack of vampires.
Jitendra
Melbourne, Australia
May 23, 2009 12:00 AM
96
Augustus, you are being too simplistic in your assumptions. Are you for the christian missionaries? While I am an atheist, I hate the missionaries as much as I hate any religion based hatred. Let me give you points about the missionaries. For instance, the SSPX (Society of St Paul X) has one of the largest groups in India. Have you seen what they stand for, they are a minority group that is against the changes done by the second vatican council, which liberalized Catholicism. For instance, Bishop Williamson is from this group. He is a hate monger. They are into hiding problems that they created. The first is the child abuse in US. There is a very detailed documentary for this, "Deliver Us From Evil". The next is the church’s heartless reaction to the nine-year-old Brazilian girl who had an abortion after being raped by her stepfather. The Archbishop of Recife declared that everybody involved in procuring the abortion (the girl’s mother, the doctors) was excommunicated. The Pope then made the comment that that condoms were no help against AIDS on the way to Africa. Given the plethora of problems created by the religion, you can never claim that they are great.

Before becoming Pope, he was the Prefect of the Congregation of the Doctrine of Faith. That was famous in its previous name, the Inquisition. In 2007 Benedict cleared the way for wider use of the old, Tridentine Latin mass. The rite he encouraged includes a prayer on Good Friday that calls for the conversion of the Jews. This is entirely consistent with the views of the man who signed off on the Vatican’s 2000 declaration, “Dominus Iesus”, which states that “to consider the Church as [merely] one way of salvation alongside those constituted by the other religions” is “contrary to the faith”. Please look at your facts more, every religion is flawed.
Prakash
San Francisco, United States
May 23, 2009 12:00 AM
95
>>Hindus have never denied that it is not suffering from its evil caste system.

No. But they have denied caste system is necessary for Hinduism to make "sense."

>>For politicians and its crony media Hindu means all including except the Muslims,christians and the Parsis.

Don't leave out the Sikhs, Buddhists and Jains....

>>>But when analysing everything they bring in the caste and religion and loo upon each caste itself as a minority group.Hindus do not hate any one.

You just hated missionaries above!

>>They will hate only those who are working against their interest and the country.

How conveniently an elastic defintion...

>>why the Hindus have problem with only those vote bank minorities like the missionary variety of Christians and the jihadi variety of the Muslims and with no other minorities. Any idea you stupid.

Yes, Moron. You just said "Hindus" don't hate anybody with one side of the mouth and hating with the otherside of the mouth.

>>The notorious Missionaries have reservations against the reservations.They consider it as an impediment in their covert and dirty jobs of conversions.They have gone to the extent of fighting it out in the court for extending the reservation benefits even to those who have converted.Compared to the poor Hindu population the Muslims, the Christians and the Parsi communities are fairly better placed.

Not true.

>>why there are cases of suicides amongst the poor Hindus and why no such cases are reported from those three minorities mentioned earlier itself indicates who are economically better off.

May be they have hope.

>>Hindus definitely have the first claim on the resources.

On the basis of mere fact that they are Hindus? That's what the Nazis said: they were germans and so they had first claim on everything.
Augustus aaa
Pune, India
May 22, 2009 12:00 AM
94
Akil,

>> Typical "secular" comment. Split Hindus along caste lines ..

So it is Secularism or "Seculars" who have created the castes?

>> Each group you mentioned - brahmins, Yadavs, Kurmis, Kammas, Lingayats, Meenas, Gujjars etc, are less than 15% of the population that Muslims are, but can NOT claim facilities extended to minorities as they are Hindus

The original comment you made was about "vote banking" of Muslims and that media talks only about it. I corrected it to say that the phenomenon is seen not just with Muslims but about other groups too and the media talks about other kinds of vote banks as well. Now you shifted the topic to facilities. As a matter of fact, the social justice measures, upliftment schemes etc like reservations are on the basis of caste and muslims complain that they are losing out because of that (the case of dalit reservation for example). Now, if a particular caste group wants something that is extended to religious/linguistic minorities, they can agitate for it and raise a demand it. I do not think there is any such agitation/demands.
Kumar
Bangalore, India
May 22, 2009 12:00 AM
93
Akil writes:

>>Split Hindus along caste lines and make them ineffective minorities,

Who is doing the splitting? Answer: Hindus themselves. Besides, what would unify them? Simply, the word Hindu?

>>but when minority status is sought by each of those castes club them as HINDUS.

Given the disdain and hatred of some Hindus towards minorities, why would the same Hindus seek minority status?

>>but can NOT claim facilities extended to minorities as they are Hindus. Double wamy.

The double whammy comes from the contradiction of simultaneously wanting to be large enough in numbers to monopolize political power without relinquishing exclusivist caste privileges and the natural contempt for all others that flows from it.
Augustus aaa
Pune, India
May 22, 2009 12:00 AM
92
KUMAR, BANGALORE

Typical "secular" comment. Split Hindus along caste lines and make them ineffective minorities, but when minority status is sought by each of those castes club them as HINDUS. Each group you mentioned - brahmins, Yadavs, Kurmis, Kammas, Lingayats, Meenas, Gujjars etc, are less than 15% of the population that Muslims are, but can NOT claim facilities extended to minorities as they are Hindus. Double wamy.
Akil
Bangalore, India
May 22, 2009 12:00 AM
91
Mit Patel,

>> The key issue here is that there is no single definition of Indianness that all Indians subscribe to

Ms. Sarabhai would readily agree to that point. It is the BJP that will have problem with that statement. The whole concept of hindu nationalism or cultural nationalism will not make sense if there is “no single definition of Indianness”, so it is the BJP which will have problem with that statement of yours.

>> did you ask this question to all the MPs prior to Advani ..

Not sure what she asked or did not ask before, but are you saying that no question should be asked by a political opposition unless it is asked to everyone before? A legitimate question can be raised by anyone anytime to those in public and can demand answers. That is an essential part of any democracy.

>> Why is your question referring to a ‘particular’ community? The issue is that no one should be victimised by anti-terror laws.

Ms. Sarabhai did not deny that and would readily agree to the statement that that no one should be victimized by anti-terror laws. If someone questions Guantanamo Bay, and in that context even refer to a ‘particular community’, it does not mean that the person is concerned only about the ‘particular community’.

>> saddened that the very voice that purports to be representing the disadvantaged and silenced, is full of bias, prejudice and may I say, intellectual bankruptcy

The questions are perfectly legitimate/normal to be asked by political opposition and such questions are asked in all democracies around the world. That you find it difficult to digest may be betraying your own prejudice than hers.
Kumar
Bangalore, India
May 22, 2009 12:00 AM
90
Dear Mallika,

It would have been better if you had stuck to writing what you were asked to. Instead you went about writing a piece that is completely incoherent in its arguments.
Firstly, there are many other Indians, including Advani, who would treasure their Indianness as much as you seem to do. There are many a proud Hindus and proud Indians, not only you. So your claim to that does not lend any weight to your arguments. The key issue here is that there is no single definition of Indianness that all Indians subscribe to.

Your references to ‘trishuls & swords’, ‘rape of thousands’, ‘get out or live as minions’ and ‘Taliban-style Hinduvata’ all are without a scant of evidence, and cannot be termed even exaggeration. It is only an imagination. This is your imagination of how you would like the world to perceive those people who do share your views. Interestingly, of your seven questions, there is none on any of your ‘talibani’ concerns.

Now, the questions:

1. This is a question that Advani must answer and demonstrate he has carried out his accountability well. However, did you ask this question to all the MPs prior to Advani who represented your constituency? If not, you are no different than other mud-slinging politicians whose main aim is to malign the opponent.

2. The argument mentioned in 1 applies.

3. The argument mentioned in 1 applies. Importantly, BJP hasn’t been around for two decades that you are referring to. The first BJP CM, Keshubahi Patel, came in power on 14th March 1995. Also, did you ask the same question to Congress which was in power for more than four decades prior to BJP?

4. Depositors should be helped but the investment and the risk go together. Have you heard of any government in the world providing bail outs to individuals affected by current financial crisis? Perhaps a better question would have been- Have you prosecuted the BJP MPs involved in the scam?

5. This is a classic ‘pseudo-secular’ question. With or without any anti-terror laws, the enforcement agencies will have to chase the perpetrators of terror to the places & communities they come from. Recently, the US courts threw out a legal suit alleging a similar victimisation from a person of particular community from Pakistan. Why is your question referring to a ‘particular’ community? The issue is that no one should be victimised by anti-terror laws.

6. Interestingly, if the money for Bangaru came from Swiss banks, it is all the more a reason to investigate Swiss accounts with Indian black money. Any inference to Swiss vs. Swadeshi in this context is nonsensical.

7. Did you ask the same question to those whose policies and actions created Ramapir no Tekro in the first place? Did you ask this question to all those who were MPs prior to Advani?

You did not raise these questions before this election, at least not publicly. One could grant that you weren’t concerned about the same issues before this election and that yours is a recent awakening. However, I am saddened that the very voice that purports to be representing the disadvantaged and silenced, is full of bias, prejudice and may I say, intellectual bankruptcy.
Sincerely,
Mitesh
Mit Patel
Abad, India
May 22, 2009 12:00 AM
89
KUMAR
BANGALORE INDIA

Thank you for your note. I feel that some serious action must be undertaken by higher authorities to introduce surveillance for detecting and destroying terrorist cells operating without impunity.

The terror strikes taking place with regular periodicity trigger immediate knee-jerk reactions blaming Pakis, Bangladeshis ... , as the root cause. But the fundamental fact is that a terror group cannot strike at random coming from outside the country without some infra structure within assisting them.

Imagine the devastation that follows on the individuals and families who become the victims. Their lives are simply ruined.

The politicians in Delhi have well protected themselves and their immediate families by Z-plated security arrangement, and the general public pays for that.

The election was an ideal opportunity to have serious and sober debates on this issue. But the politicians made it simply their football game. I am afraid that ordinary people will have to suffer for a long time from terror acts.
Pinaki S Ray
Adelaide, Australia
May 22, 2009 12:00 AM
88
In single word, they are evil and evil is defined as some one or group of people who are governed by hatred, anger, geed and jealousy. And, that is what they have displayed ever since they lost power.
gopal
Noida, India
May 21, 2009 12:00 AM
87
Pinaki S Ray

>> Not at all in my understanding of plain English..

I am sorry, you are right. I missed to see that the point was specifically about anti-terror laws. I misread it as general point about hindutva atrocities. As for the terror laws, BJP plays an awkward double game, where if a hindutva extremist is accused, they bring about all kind of conspiracy theories, accusing the police that they are torturing the accused, that the investigating officers are politically biased etc. When it comes to muslim accused, they don’t care a damn about any safe guards etc. There can be different opinions on what kind of laws work well against terror. For example Obama wanted to close Guantánamo Bay prison camp and as part of a election political debate, he can question about the happenings in Guantánamo Bay (in the same way as some question the alleged abuse of POTA). That would be a legitimate question in a political debate and would not mean that Obama is weak on terror etc – just that the ideas/approach may be different.
Kumar
Bangalore, India
May 21, 2009 12:00 AM
86
"The issue is about Jehadi terrorism as unleashed in 26/11 and implied consequential tightening up of internal security measures necessary in the country. She is objecting to "tightening up of internal security measures" (as presumably proposed by BJP) since it could adversely affect some "minorities". And that is the issue. "

Even Deoband , Shahi Imam ,Amar Singh ,Mamta , battery of numerous Psecus gave clean chit to Indian Mujahidin killers.
Khushi Ram
ambala cantt, India
May 21, 2009 12:00 AM
85
KUMAR
BANGALORE INDIA

"Ms. Sarabhai is talking about the deeds of hindutva oufits of which Mr. Advani is a part and parcel of. " -

Not at all in my understanding of plain English, it goes beyond that! She is avoiding the real issue and trying to implicate Advani for something which is not proven (in my understanding at least).

"... So the question asked by Ms. Sarabhai is an appropriate question to Mr. Advani" -

I am not denying that and she is entitled to ask any question she feels to be relevant. But by the same logic, my question to her is very appropriate! Will she have an answer?

As I have explicitly stated, I consider Advani to be an old foggy, good for nothing. Please do not bring in Advani or BJP in this context.

The issue is about Jehadi terrorism as unleashed in 26/11 and implied consequential tightening up of internal security measures necessary in the country. She is objecting to "tightening up of internal security measures" (as presumably proposed by BJP) since it could adversely affect some "minorities". And that is the issue.

It goes without saying that internal security measures for protecting all Indians and visitors must have failed within the Republic of India. Therefore it is high time such measures are introduced. And UPA is silent about it publicly.

She is objecting to the imposition of any surveillance of suspected terror groups under the pretext that some minorities may by adversely treated which is an absurd reasoning!

Dirty politics.
Pinaki S Ray
Adelaide, Australia
May 21, 2009 12:00 AM
84
Akil,

>> It is presumed/ assumed by everyone including TV Journalist on the most secular NDTV that Muslims will vote on religious lines. Muslims will either vote for a Muslim candidate or a candidate that is most likely to defeat BJP

That is for the same reason why north Indians are likely to vote against a party like MNS. If the party speaks against a particular group and incites violence against that group, give hate speeches on that group, seek to insult the group etc, it is natural that the group will vote against that party which does it.

>> This "vote banking" by Muslims is not objected to and it is taken as normal behavior

There is a "vote banking" not just by Muslims, but also dalits, brahmins, Yadavs, OBCs, Kurmis, Kammas, Lingayats, Meenas, Gujjars etc - almost every group that we can think of. To some extent, it is driven by a need to have a ruling representation from various sections of society. It is good to have represebtation from various sections of society for a healthy democracy, but as we know, it often takes very ugly shapes and forms. As Indian democracy matures, these things will slowly recede and even with out “vote banking” we will still see adequate representation from all sections. BTW, muslims are under-represented in parliament and most assemblies.

>> moment any Party claims to represent the Hindu interest, the Party is branded communal. WHY??

No, you got it wrong. A party is branded as communal/racist if the party gives hate-speeches, incites violence, does moral policing, takes law into own hands in enforcing their communal beliefs etc.
Kumar
Bangalore, India
May 21, 2009 12:00 AM
83
Pinaki S Ray,

>> >> How would you ensure that particular communities are not victimised with the anti-terror laws that you are proposing? "

>> How would you, Lady Mallika Sarabhai, ensure that when I visit India and stay in a Hotel like Taj, I will not be slaughtered like the others (local and nonlocal visitors) in Jehadi-inspired terror strike ?

Ms. Sarabhai is talking about the deeds of hindutva oufits of which Mr. Advani is a part and parcel of. You are talking about Jehadi terrorism which she is as opposed as anyone else is, but Advani is part of the same team or cannot speak up against Varun/Togadia/Modi/Thakur etc or hindutva extremism. So the question asked by Ms. Sarabhai is an appropriate question to Mr. Advani and as a political opponent in the election she should raise such a question.
Kumar
Bangalore, India
May 21, 2009 12:00 AM
82
Dear Mallika,

It is presumed/ assumed by everyone including TV Journalist on the most secular NDTV that Muslims will vote on religious lines. Muslims will either vote for a Muslim candidate or a candidate that is most likely to defeat BJP. There is at least one constituency in India where even a MUSLIM DONKEY will defeat the best candidate of any other religion- Ponnani in Kerala. I have not spoken about any of the Kashmir Valley seats. This "vote banking" by Muslims is not objected to and it is taken as normal behavior.

Christians vote for candidates from their religion only. The Church in Mizoram, Nagaland, Kerala etc have a major say in even selection of Candidates. Again, in Kerala there was a seat till 2004- Muvattupuzha, from where only Christian candidates have won election. Congress, CPM, CPI, Kerala Congress and even BJP supported independent candidate (PC Thomas in 2004) has won the seat. But the winning candidate has always been a Christian. Nobody finds anything wrong even when Christians in Mizoram declare that "Mizoram is for Jesus".

But the moment a Hindu candidate seeks vote on religious lines all hell breaks loose. CEC, PM, CM, District Collector, DGP, SP, High Courts, Supreme courts and every other "secularist" starts baying for the blood of the HINDU Candidate. Why the discrimination? Mr MJ Akbar does not find it odd to say "let us see how much is the percentage of Muslim Vote" but if someone were to say "let us see how much is the HINDU vote in any constituency", he will be "ripped apart by the secularist". Bad mouthing Hindus has become necessary pre-requisite to be a secularist.

BJP will never win by projecting RAM, the "Maryada Purushottam". It is time BJP shifted to "Krishna Bagawan " the cunning God" who is more relevant for the Hindus in the present day world. Muslims League/MIM can represent Muslims, Kerala Congress (A to Z )/Mizo Church can supervise state election and can represent Christian interest, but the moment any Party claims to represent the Hindu interest, the Party is branded communal. WHY??
Akil
Bangalore, India
May 21, 2009 12:00 AM
81
What about throwing back to her some of the same mud as she is trying to throw ?

Let me pick one in her submission as an example;

"5 How would you ensure that particular communities are not victimised with the anti-terror laws that you are proposing? "

How would you, Lady Mallika Sarabhai, ensure that when I visit India and stay in a Hotel like Taj, I will not be slaughtered like the others (local and nonlocal visitors) in Jehadi-inspired terror strike ?

Do you have the brain to understand that 26/11 could not have taken place without terrorist cells within the country ? Are you not ashamed that the Indian Intelligence failed miserably to convince the International Agencies their thesis that 26/11 was planned exclusively in Pakistan ?

Other points of her submission could be dealt with similarly by someone locally, since living overseas I do not have enough details.

Mind you that I am not a supporter of BJP or that loud-mouth old foggy (LKA).
Pinaki S Ray
Adelaide, Australia
May 21, 2009 12:00 AM
80
This is Mallika at its best. Pathetic as usual. She tries to be some kind of “maseha” who has the solution for all the problems and that is ‘criticizing Mr. Advani’. Can she give answer of her questions what she has done so far to the Gandhinagar constituency. “No” is the right answer. You are a power hungry, money monger woman who has no common sense. She thought asking these stupid question will book her ticket in the Parliament but only proved to be wrong by the smarter people. Now they have become the communal forces as she didn’t win the election.

I would suggest her to go back to America and enjoy her life. India is not a place for her.
Amitabh
delhi, India
May 20, 2009 12:00 AM
79
Brilliant & haunting. Thank you Mallika & keep fighting this scourge of extremism that has made other relevant issue irrelevant.
thank you for giving our anguish a plaintive and eloquent voice. Keep fighting.
anupam dasgupta
jaipur, india
May 20, 2009 12:00 AM
78
Mallika Sarabhai
You have asked very subtle and incisive questions to Advani.
* But, Advani cannot honestly answer them because he is an outright corrupt leader and utterly shallow as is his party and his party's agenda.
*His party MP had the distinction of being the first to get caught redhanded taking bribe on the TV.
*The BJP leaders escorted Maulana Masood Azhar to the lawless area of Afghanistan in exchange for the release of Indian air lines passengers. *Advani has blood on his hands. Thousands of Muslims were killed at his instance in the post Babri demolition period.
*Advani was the one who started the Rath yatra, paving way for demolition of an ancient mosque(the Babri mosque).
*The BJP speaks of bringing crores of Indian money lying in the Swiss banks. May be, Advani has deposited his fortunes somewhere else.
*The BJP has a fascistic Hindutva agenda, however hard its leader try to impart it with a tinge of moderatism.Yesterday, in a "The Hindu" news article, hordes of BJP followers in celebrating BJP victory in state also damaged Muslim property and ran with lethal weapons to kill Muslims in a Karnataka town.
*BJP is very keen to hang Afzal guru. But, the truth is that he had a weak lawyer to defend himself. Even the Supreme court has said that the capital punishmed afforded to Afzal was only to appease the majority of this country. In hanging Afzal, the BJP has a heinous agenda. It wants to hang innocent Muslims by branding them as anti-national.Overall strategy is to muffle Muslim voices and render them second class citizens of this country.

*I too am shocked by the BJP's interpretation of Hinduism.BJP and the Sangh have tried their level best to Talibanise Hinduism.

* You may have lost the election due to saffron polarisation of public opinion(by Modi et al) but it was truly heroic of you to stand for the truth and the cause of minorities.
Vivek Chatterjee
Calcutta, India
May 20, 2009 12:00 AM
77
prakash -- " China is 91 in HDI compared to 132 for India. "

Prakash ... im curious ... where does China stand on the Human Democarcy Index ? That aside you do have a point in terms of China managing to feed itself and pulling itself out of misery but there is no political process to impede their growth. One day however the Chinese will discover this thing called Democracy and no amount of indices in the world will save them.

You do need to look at the impact of Colonialism and Empire on Third World Growth. Look it up when you can. It took 300 years for the English to ruin our economy and its gonna take a while before we pull ourselves out of this. And yes our disgusting, pathetic politicians have only served to weaken our system.

It would be nice however to bomb the hell out of countries that are rich in natural resources and help ourselves to some of that black gold for instance. That would definitely help alleviate a lot more poverty and we will certainly rise up in the index.

If i do sound defensive its because we hear nothing but how bad the situation is in India all the friggin time from every single 'visitor'. I do agree our politicians are at fault since they are the elected representatives who are supposed to 'fix' things. Almost every single adult or adolescent Indian knows it and it grates to keep hearing it again and again and then get compared to some other country.

Ah well ...
Reddy
Bangalore, India
May 20, 2009 12:00 AM
76
"Let us say a villager in some remote karnataka blames you for all his backwardness. How much are you in agreement with him? "

Well ... i do agree with him actually. The cities in Karnataka consume several times the resources of backward villages and the distribution of resources is skewed towards the cities. Resource utilization should be distributed equally across all communities. Its called the common good.
Reddy
Bangalore, India
May 20, 2009 12:00 AM
75
PRAKASH,

Thank you for responding again. I took your original post in the right spirit, but thought that it was factually incorrect. That is why I tried to object, but I was wrong as you pointed out. I have a feeling that some in the forum are trying to throw mud at Calcutta (or Bengal for that matter) without any knowledge. I try to stop them, since otherwise it creates wrong pictures in the mind of uninformed readers. Anyway, I think Calcutta is saturated - it cannot cater for any further influx of pavement dwellers from neighboring states. The obnoxious Raj Thackeray has one valid point for his deplorable strong arm tactics.
Pinaki S Ray
Adelaide, Australia
May 20, 2009 12:00 AM
74
What a load of garbage in this ? Congratulations to Congress for an impressive win. But outlook in the excitement is giving too much space to tinpot junkies who is a dancer and someone who lost election badly.
Maha
NJ, United States
May 20, 2009 12:00 AM
73
Mallika Sarabhai should be commended for her courage. She might have lost but she took a stand. That too when Modi is ruling Gujarat like a dictatorship.
Sabyasachi Ray
Kolkatta, India
May 19, 2009 12:00 AM
72
Pinaki, I lived and studied in West Bengal for part of my life. I was in IIT KGP and love the state for its culture and the way people look at issues. However, I feel that politically, it requires a lot to be said. That is the reason I pointed this out. I am glad that you understand me. I am by no means trying to run down the place, I would never do that. The point is that regardless of the place you are in, the political system is stymied. We, as Indians, are responsible for this (as in any democracy), we can say "Enough is enough" and ask the system be corrected to prioritize the issues.
Prakash
San Francisco, United States
May 19, 2009 12:00 AM
71
Reddy >> We in India REALLY dont need to be lectured about how pathetic our Human Development Index and other such indices are.

It is unfortunate that you do not accept my critique in the spirit in which it is offered. I am as much a citizen of India as you are. It is my right and duty to point out deficiencies in my country.

I accept that there are a lot of problems in US and every country in the world. US does have a lot of problems in its policies. However, I do not accept that US is responsible for the problems that I pointed out in India. Let me give you this in a different level. In 1990, China was worse than in India in poverty level (India was at 49%, China was at 52%). However, in 2005, China was at 15%, India was at 44%. No one seems to be limiting China. China is 15 in Global Hunger Index compared to the 63 for India. China is 91 in HDI compared to 132 for India.

Your argument is similar to what I used to tell my mother when I was not good in a class. I would tell her that some other student was responsible, she would not accept it. No country in the world is preventing India from improving its position in hunger. If they were, they would be limiting China too (it would also be noticed). I live for part of the time in India. Having been in China and other countries in Asia, I know that our political system is partly responsible for this. Simple things like having iodine in salt have not been addressed in enough of the states in India. Now, they are looking at adding micro nutrients in the mid day meal scheme for kids in school. I would suspect that there is a lack in vision in our political class for not looking at these basic issues and being vigorous at correcting it. I would request you to not be defensive about India.
Prakash
San Francisco, United States
May 19, 2009 12:00 AM
70
The shrill tone of this lady is similar to that of Arundhati Roy.Perhaps it is necessary when nobody cares about you.
Narendra Vasireddi
Boston, United States
May 19, 2009 12:00 AM
69
PRAKASH
SAN FRANCISCO UNITED STATES

I accept your verdict since you were in Calcutta. I admit that I was wrong in my previous statement in challenging you and tender my apology to you in this matter.

I am really taken aback by open drains in Taltola since I believe I knew that area pretty well at some date in the past. I have walked along Dharmatolla Str, SN Banerjee Rd from Entally to Chowranghee (Chadni) many times and never seen open drains then. Something must have happened in the intervening years.

The only place where I saw open drain was in Gol Park (Gariahat) where the roads were dug up. I was told then that some repair work was going on by the Corporation.

Anyway, I take your point that no comparison should be made between the amenities of cities of different states. But I also believe that competition is essential for the improvement of anything. As such people should critically examine the facilities in different places and voice their concern in the language of comparison, otherwise no pressure is applied for change. A constructive criticism (or comparison) is always to be welcome, but not the denigrating destructive type.
Pinaki S Ray
Adelaide, Australia
May 19, 2009 12:00 AM
68
If you carefully examine the root causes of Third World under-development they are closely tied to First World hyper-consumerism.
REDDY
BANGALORE

Reddy! Let us say a villager in some remote karnataka blames you for all his backwardness. How much are you in agreement with him?
sandilya
Chennai, India
May 19, 2009 12:00 AM
67
prakash ... "The BJP are based on hate, the congress on sleazyness. If they are such a great party, how come basic issues have not been addressed by them yet. India has over 45% child malnutrition in the world, it is worse than some countries in Africa. Look up the WHO webpage on this. "

I completely agree with you about the similarity or cognitive dissonance between the Congress and BJP. You can argue forever that they are tewo sides of the same coin. All things being equal i would still choose the Congress over the BJP because they are far more secular in their outlook and have always been so despite the pressures to mimic the BJP. That single differentiator is reason enough to vote for them, in the absence of a morally palatable alternative Third Party.

We in India REALLY dont need to be lectured about how pathetic our Human Development Index and other such indices are. We know it is and we invariably do the best we can, however you really do need to read up a lot more on how the Imperial West impoverished the rest of the world for centuries for their own benefit. In fact they continue to do so ... your country ... the U.S. alone spews out more cancer causing chemicals and carbon-emissions than the rest of the world combined (actually the U.S. along with their exclusive european counterparts). A single American consumes 8 times more resources than a single Chinese or 16 times more than a single Indian. Please go look it up.

Maybe if these destructive, conumerist trend was reversed, those of us living in our nice little cesspool will have a chance to prosper. The Velvet Gloves- iron Fists policy of the Americans has worked wonders for American Imperialism these last 100 years. If you carefully examine the root causes of Third World under-development they are closely tied to First World hyper-consumerism.

Reddy
Bangalore, India
May 18, 2009 12:00 AM
66
Didn’t Mallika Sarabhai lose her deposit securing less than 10,000 votes on May 16? Why does she have a column?
This whole moniker of ‘Taliban’ is fashionably used by the press and the far left against anyone who belongs to BJP (the Indian media is full of it), instead of the old moniker ‘fascism’ (fashionable during Indira’s days) for anyone who is patriotic.
Indira Gandhi imprisoned her opponents during the dark dark days of the tyrannical Emergency and one of those IMPRISONED was L.K. Advani. Despite Advani’s flaws, he fought against the emergency, WENT TO JAIL (where was Mallika? – did she go to jail during Emergency?) and he pulled together a party which had just 2 seats to a victory (Vajpayee’s government) and to a sizable opposition today.
India’s is vindicated that Mallika lost and Advani won.
There still need to be patriots like Vajpayee and Advani to stand up against the soon to be resurgent totalitarian Congress party (Indira’s legacy). Tighten the seat belt, the next 5 years are going to be rough. The dynasty is holding its durbar with the coronation soon to take place. Congress Party barely has 270 seats (that to through alliance).
Opposition parties need to stand vigilant. There is a role to play (do not roll over and play dead, be alive).
Priya Madhavan
Rochester, United States
May 18, 2009 12:00 AM
65
i am just what i am.

not a proud hindu,or a proud indian.or a proud dane.

just one of the 6 billion plus humans on this
planet. fortunate that i settled down in a nice country. however concerned about those in trouble man,woman ,child or animal.

hallelujah

banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
May 18, 2009 12:00 AM
64
augustus aaa

hindus are considered soft targets by minorities.

you can see what has happened in the kashmir valley. muslims whilst always proclaiming their victimhood have expelled all the hindu pandits,
whilst the army and the secularists stood idly by.

how about the sikhs. bhindrawalle asked his
boys to kill 33 hindus ,and take over india.

pakistani,s even today talk of killing the infidels, and conquering india.

christians provoke hindus by their agressive marketing of their religion, and last time killed
a hindu swami and his desciples. they got a disproporionate punishment.

other countries would never have stood such
nonsense,

israel is an example. they repay every killing
of israelis by a 100 killings of arabs.

americans have destroyed 2 muslim countries as pay back for nine elleven.

as a hindu agnostic i can see neutrally at the situation in india. i think that secularists keep on encourageing minorities to provoke
hindus.

the results of such a policy can be seen. those
who go over the line are punished harshly.
its not by the queensberry rules. dont expect
this in a lawless country like india.

however one thing is for sure . no muslims are
leaveing for pakistan. no sikhs or chrstians are
seeking asylum abroad. by and large things are very peaceful in most parts of india.

try some countries like eastern europe. you will get to know something about racial terror.

on the whole missionaries of various faiths have devided society. the plural society is not a
happy society. its full of discord. everyone
includeing minority and the major community should learn the rules for liveing peacefully in such a society.

complaining incessantly and demoniseing of hindus will get you into a conflict situation.
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
May 18, 2009 12:00 AM
63
Pinaki >> The only area I have seen open drainage is near the bridge in Salt Lake City on the way to Airport, which is a newly built area. They may have sealed that portion by now.

I was in Kolkata this December and saw open drainage in parts of Taltala. I understand that you are upset, however, this is not to compare one city in India with another etc. I am being honest about my comment. Please do not misunderstand me, I do not imply that Mumbai is better etc.

I would request you not to compare India with any country in Europe. I know that a lot of Indians engage in this as a way to get out of problems in India. The point is to look at the data and work on correcting it.

Let us be more honest about India. Look at the human development index of India (0.609). It is behind Egypt, Congo, Namibia.

According to Global Hunger Index, India is 63 on the list (only of developing countries). It is behind Nigeria, Senegal, Congo, Ghana. You can look it up yourself.

It is one thing to show how great we are as a country, it is a different issue to be honest about data.

This is no means to show that India is a bad country etc. I am not on that line, I am trying to look at good solutions to confront the problems we have as a country. Sure, some govt programs work. However, a lot of NGOs must be given credit for their work on this. It is no point trying to compare India with countries like Denmark etc. Having one metro in Delhi and Kolkata is good, but not enough. The average matters a lot. We must set ourselves goals that are realistic and try to meet them. After all, things like hunger, malnutrition etc are important things to address.
Prakash
San Francisco, United States
May 18, 2009 12:00 AM
62
Thank you for contesting the elections. If I were from Gandhinagar, I would have voted for you.

Jaipat S. Jain
mycable
new york, United States
May 18, 2009 12:00 AM
61
>>What was the need for Miss Sarabhai to bring up Ayodhya and the Rath Yatra of 1990?

The root cause of BJP's birth and justification for its existence; thus its lack of appeal as a viable alternative

>>Advani himself has barely mentioned either of these events for many years.

Silence speaks volumes at times.

>>Even Vir Sanghvi, who is no big supporter of the BJP, recognized that Advani hasn't referred to the Ayodhya issue for a long time- and this was written in 2002.

The fact Advani hadn't mentioned Ayodhya doesn't undo the fact the man and the cause that began with a toyota truck yathra were joined at the hip.

>>It's simply false to suggest that 'all terrorism' in India originated with the Yatra and Ayodhya.

No, but Yathra and Ayodhya lent a party support to killing fellow Indians and destroying their property by taking it to a new level. Lest we forget, it was PV Narsimha Rao and Congress that let it happen by not nipping it in the bud. But she is entitled to her literary hyperbole.

>>Kashmir had Islamic terrorism before either incidents. And of course, there was Khalistani, Naga and Naxalite terror long before then.

The solution to all is always the same: Hindu supremacy and murder and mayhem in its name.

>>Even taking the 'Ayodhya' as root cause theory on board, that would be really reaching.

reaching a reasonable conclusion?

>>The Islamic terrorists would have found some other excuse( Kashmir, discrimination, India having a Hindu majority etc) to indulge in terror.

While Hindu terrorists have only one excuse to indulge in terror?

>>In any case, how can Sarabhai even hint that there are mitigating factors for the violence, unless she is justifying them in some way, and I hope she isn't.

You do it all the time....about Hindus "having to defend themselves" because they are "enslaved" in "their own country" and other assorted bullshit...
Augustus aaa
Pune, India
May 18, 2009 12:00 AM
60
What do you mean that the BJP is based on "hate"? You would be accurate to say that they are based on consolidation, ideology of Hindutva, essential Hindu-Sanskritic character of India, pride in and identification with, 5000 year heritage of India and the very unique, distinct character of India which largely stems from Indic-Hindu culture, symbols, literature, historical figures and achievements. Lots of people in India vote for this organisation , because they expect things from them, including both economic and cultural growth and rejuvenation.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
May 18, 2009 12:00 AM
59
What was the need for Miss Sarabhai to bring up Ayodhya and the Rath Yatra of 1990? Advani himself has barely mentioned either of these events for many years. Even Vir Sanghvi, who is no big supporter of the BJP, recognized that Advani hasn't referred to the Ayodhya issue for a long time- and this was written in 2002.

It's simply false to suggest that 'all terrorism' in India originated with the Yatra and Ayodhya. Kashmir had Islamic terrorism before either incidents. And of course, there was Khalistani, Naga and Naxalite terror long before then. Even taking the 'Ayodhya' as root cause theory on board, that would be really reaching. The Islamic terrorists would have found some other excuse( Kashmir, discrimination, India having a Hindu majority etc) to indulge in terror. In any case, how can Sarabhai even hint that there are mitigating factors for the violence, unless she is justifying them in some way, and I hope she isn't.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
May 18, 2009 12:00 AM
58
Ms. Sarabhai claims to be "a proud Hindu and a proud Indian." In that order, Ms. Sarabhai?

If so, the BJP types shouldn't bitch about others who are proud _______ (fill in any religion) and proud Indian. Why do BJP types assume they can harmonize their identities while others can't? Is that because they believe their moms who say they are "special" boys?
Augustus aaa
Pune, India
May 18, 2009 12:00 AM
57
PRAKASH
SAN FRANCISCO UNITED STATES

" Kolkata still has open drainage in parts of the city." -

This is absolute nonsense. I do not think you have been to Calcutta. The only area I have seen open drainage is near the bridge in Salt Lake City on the way to Airport, which is a newly built area. They may have sealed that portion by now.

If you want to have more power cuts (loadshedding) and scarcity of water supply than Calcutta, go and experience this in Bombay.

In Calcutta there is the Metro - underground train. It has been engineered during the Marxist rule! This was first underground transport in India. Delhi later on to my information collected all the technical data and expertise from the engineers who worked for Calcutta and built their Metro.

The Calcutta metro is in a small scale, although there are planning going on to extend it. The difficulty is that the city is very old and there are objections for digging in established suburbs.

I have traveled by underground in London, Paris, Alexander Platz in Berlin, Sydney and Calcutta.
I can assure that the Calcutta Metro runs as efficiently and cleanly as any of the others.

This is not to say that I am a supporter of the present CPM State Government. They must be booted out, and Mamata has started a crusade for it. It remains to be seen what happens.
Pinaki S Ray
Adelaide, Australia
May 18, 2009 12:00 AM
56
Banito

I am angered with the BJP for-

1.It's stance on Indo US nuclear Policy.I, for once admired MMS on this issue. I am pro USA and West.
2. It enacted an amendment to constitution that nullified supreme court judgement on the issue of seniority of reserved candiddates in service.

Originally reserved candidates got out of turn promotions but once the general candidates too got promoted to the same rank their original inter se seniority with the general candidates would be restored.

This out of turn promotions purely on caste basis gave undeserving superiority to guys who are otherwise also incompetent. Imagine your incompetent junior becoming your boss!! This was to an extent in check previously by the supreme court orders but BJP took extra pains to get that order rescinded.

So also the incentive for high performance was out of turn promotion previously, now thanks to BJP,the so called right to centre party, it removed that incentive.Its conveyor belt policy.
It is not a truly rightist party with clear policy.
BJP as of now is nothing but a party with soft congressim.
sandilya
Chennai, India
May 18, 2009 12:00 AM
55
"Reddy, I was in India during the Godhra massacre and know that what the BJP advocated was outrageous. Sure, the muslims provoked it, but the results were terrible."

Prakash

I have heard many many versions of many many eye witnesses of Godhra with my own ears.

What is your full version ? Just curious if you can tell some new facts .
a k ghai
mumbai, India
May 18, 2009 12:00 AM
54
People are commenting on the CPI losing in West Bengal due to communists supporting the land taking for the industries that was opposed by Mamata Banerjee. How pathetic that a state where the parties fight for people does not have basic amenities. Kolkata still has open drainage in parts of the city. No politician tries to clean up the basics of one of the largest cities in India, they fight for people. This is the sadness of Indian politics. If there is a new disease in Kolkata, it will spread so quickly due to such problems. This is in a state that is not backward by any standard. Mamata Banerjee is part of the new coalition that claims all the big stuff, I will give her the benefit of the doubt as she in not the CM yet.
Prakash
San Francisco, United States
May 18, 2009 12:00 AM
53
Reddy, I was in India during the Godhra massacre and know that what the BJP advocated was outrageous. Sure, the muslims provoked it, but the results were terrible. That is precisely what I told when I talked about the harshness of their views. However, the congress is no special party. I dare it to win without the Gandhi family. They are no special party. The last time they won without this party madness was with Shastri. This is how sad Indian politics is. How many places in the world do you see a country run for half its lifetime based on one family legacy. Now, it looks like Rahul Gandhi might come as a minister, then as PM. The BJP are based on hate, the congress on sleazyness. If they are such a great party, how come basic issues have not been addressed by them yet. India has over 45% child malnutrition in the world, it is worse than some countries in Africa. Look up the WHO webpage on this.
Prakash
San Francisco, United States
May 18, 2009 12:00 AM
52
This is pure frustration. Developments work in Gandhinagar isn't a myth, an example being the construction of the Gujarat Financial International Tech city will employ 400,000 people and house 50,000 residents in Gandhinagar alone in an years time and lets not forget Outlook magazines' own issue which gave the highest marks for Advani's constituency. She should have rather fought against the Congress MP's in Mumbai to bring change in the establishment because wasn't her LIFE is danger when she was saved in the nick of time during the 26/11 attacks? Mallika, these are double standards.
Aneesh
Hyderabad, India
May 18, 2009 12:00 AM
51
Banito,

>> you can condemn hindu violence in gujerat, american violence against muslims

If India takes a decision to attack say, Pakistan in the aftermath of 26/11 or a parliament attack etc, that is not called as "violence against muslims". There are people of all religions in Indian army and there are people of all religions in Pakistan. The communal violence, incitement, hate-speeches etc that we are talking about falls in a different category. There is a difference between police/law/army etc doing something and street mobs comprising of religious/communal fanatics doing something.
Kumar
Bangalore, India
May 18, 2009 12:00 AM
50
kumar

ofcource they have to be condemned.

however one should learn lessons from them

one being that mindless hate from the muslim camp will result in violence against them.

you can condemn hindu violence in gujerat, american violence against muslims, and israeli violence against arabs.

the causes are the same. no one will take attacks from anyone and not answer back. often
the costs are borne by innocent bystandards.

my point is simple.

muslims start violence and get a disproportionate punishment in exchange.
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
May 18, 2009 12:00 AM
49
Banito,

>> some hindus believe that the killings taught the muslims a lesson,they needed to learn
>> after the july 2005 london train bombings,many muslims said,that the britts had it comeing to them,because of blair foreign policy

Those who kind of hindus who support/celebrate the killings in Gujarat and the kind of muslims who celebrate london bombings fall in the same category. They both have to be condemned.
Kumar
Bangalore, India
May 18, 2009 12:00 AM
48
reddy

i am firmly opposed to anything like the gujerat killings. period.no debate on this.

however some hindus believe that the killings taught the muslims a lesson,they needed to learn. thats the way some people think.

muslims after attacking the wtc in 2001 celebrated even in denmark, and the primeminister
told them off. after the july 2005 london train bombings,many muslims said,that the britts had it comeing to them,because of blair foreign policy.

i am opposed to killings of innocent people.
do muslims feel the same way. killing of their own people by islmaic gangs are easily forgotten.

bangladesh has asked pakistan to apologise for
the genocide in 1971. pakistan has refused, and asked them to forget it as part of histort.

however finally. unless muslims change they will be hit again and again. the europeans like everyone else can be extremely vindictive.
if they experience problems with anyone they will not be forgiven or forgotten.

ask muslims who live here in the west.
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
May 18, 2009 12:00 AM
47
sandilya

the truth is that one catches more flys with
honey then vinegar.

rahul gandhi,priyanka were the honey

most others were vinegar.

the bjp should have had a team of young leaders from across the various elements of the indian
spectrum- a kind of rainbow coalition.

they should have made promises which it is possible to keep- ignoreing humbug.

they should not have attacked opponents, but
met their voters with a smile and a song.

for this they need new strategy-new leades,new
voters. the last is the most important.

all in all bjp lost-congress won. regional parties on the whole failed. exceptions were patnaik and naveen patnaik. they had made a
favourable impression.

rahul gandhi and his young team will be better then the fossils of the party-who can do anything
to end their lives comitt sati, or harakiri.

i hope the sycophants will follow suit.

time for a scotch on the rocks,and a bacon sandwitch with green salad-

toodle do.
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
May 18, 2009 12:00 AM
46
I consider BJP has lost this elections bcze it failed to effectively evolve a rousing point to communicate with the people. It could not strike chord with the middle class voters . I was myself wondering why I should vote a BJP candidate.

Its right to centre ideology is supposed to be opposite of the commies. But surprisingly on many issues the tone, the stance and tenor of both the parties more or less remained same whatever might be their ideological position.

BJP’s stance on the nuclear issue certainly left many educated professionals disillusioned. BJP claims the support of middle class but could not effectively communicate its position on India & USA relation. Most often it was in negative. Now a days every middle class family in India has relations / earning members in USA. Its constructive ideas to cement such Indo-USA relations were missing to evoke a positive feeling for this party.

BJP’s reposing faith in the worn out ‘Desi’ policy as dictated by Jagran Munch , its stand on industrialisation, banking and foreign investments was absurdly similar to communists avowed anti west policy.

Its approach to many issues was so similar to commies that it was a sort of UNITY IN ABSURDITY.
Fascists and commies are both different in ideology but the end result of their ideologies is same .
All that the burgeoning middle class wants is good education, hospitals, roads and jobs. BJP did not say much on how it would meet these aspirations if came to power.
sandilya
Chennai, India
May 18, 2009 12:00 AM
45
"I think that the main problem with BJP as a party is the harshness of its voice and the people that represent it. People like Modi may be good for the economy, but must learn to speak with a better tone and not criticize a section of the society."

The main problem with the BJP is that they are a ultra-fundamentalist party whose only contribution to the Indian socio-political spectrum is 'hate' and the religious persecution of minorities. It has nothing to do with presentation or putting a softer 'spin' on it. That may work in your country (san francisco, united states) but Indians generally can see through it. We know what Modi is capable of and we dont want to have anything to do with it. This mandate is a clear repudiation of everything the BJP stands for in no uncertain terms.

Hate as a political weapon is useful in some situations (like pilibhit where the bigot varun gandhi won), but in general it doesnt work.

I understand its different in the U.S. ... i am no expert in american politics but serial killers like Cheney and Bush can get elected as President for 2 terms and im sure americans are okay with it but i really dont see Indians ever electing Modi to office ... in case you havent read about it you should look up the Godhra massacre and Modi's role in enabling it.
Reddy
Bangalore, India
May 18, 2009 12:00 AM
44
I think that the main problem with BJP as a party is the harshness of its voice and the people that represent it. People like Modi may be good for the economy, but must learn to speak with a better tone and not criticize a section of the society. Given the problems that we have in our economy and the decline in jobs in India, the last we need is someone coming to us with harsh news about other issues. It distracts us from our core problems. He needs to get his act together. Whether he likes it or not, he is not ready for leadership of this country. He must learn more maturity in presenting himself, people will not trust him otherwise. Advani must learn from this strategic error and understand what an opposition party must work on, look at the issues that the governing party is failing on that is important to the country and present viable solutions as an alternative and not oppose the ruling party all the time. I am not implying that the congress is the solution, given the choices we have, it is better than the others.
Prakash
San Francisco, United States
May 18, 2009 12:00 AM
43
faruki

if you reject leaders who have killed muslims, there will be none to chose.

musharaff, karzai, mubarak, gadaffi, sudan president. sadam hussain was popular with muslims
world wide.

your obsession with modi is at the level of madness.
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
May 18, 2009 12:00 AM
42
Sunita Savarkar,

>> her pseudo secular ideas that have reduced india to what it is now, minus afghanistan, paki, bdesh, kashmir and soon to be other areas.

That is just rubbish. You guys can talk of megalomanic dreams, but you have accomplished nothing.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
May 18, 2009 12:00 AM
41
Sunita Savarkar,

>> ....the best administrator the country has ever had (Modi).

We have had Patel, and we have Nitish and Patnaik. But you have to pick a murderer of Muslims!
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
May 18, 2009 12:00 AM
40
"You may (or may not) have founded an NGO but if you care so much about the country why are you not still in India trying to change the "lazy and childish" Indians? " s-mishra

LOL ! This benitoadolfo is a member of the HitlerYouth who grew up on a steady diet of hate and bile. There are many of his type around.

hey mussolini ... it must really hurt being treated like crap by the very white people who you put up on a pedestal huh ? Do you have self-hatred issues or have you internalized it ? Is that why you spew all your venom on a hapless minority ? I have news for you ... europeans are racist pigs for the most part and even if they are civil to you on the surface they think you are just another brown coolie !!! So get over your supercilious attitude benito ... and stop kissing white butt.
Reddy
Bangalore, India
May 17, 2009 12:00 AM
39
gurujee

indians should analyse the results of the latest elections-

who were the most comitted voters- of which economic class, which religion.

laloo prasad was voted to power for 15 years.

the commies have been in power for 30 years.

mayawati was elected by a majority in uttar pradesh.

pnavin patnaik has got a huge win-

does this mean that other parties are viewed
as incompetent.

there is more to the latest election then meets
the eyes.

one thing good however is that the brain dead
commies, the corrupt lalloo have lost.

most of us can i presume agree on this.

generally india needs charismatic youngish leaders, well educated, well travelled with a
cosmopolitan culture, and with a can do attitude.

banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
May 17, 2009 12:00 AM
38
"If you had an iota of common sense to go along with the large brain that you are so proud of, you would not be spending time sitting here defending madam sonia and her dynasty that takes the country for a ride on the pseudo secular bandwagon. "

I will take Sonia any day to the lecherous, sleazebags you are so busy defending ... and i would do that without using half my brain ... it doesnt take much to realize the complete intellectual bankruptcy of the BJP and its supporters. You have no ideas but hate, no policies but hate and no morality but hate.

Propoganda has its limits and this time around the Indian electorate decided enough is enough. They saw right through the BJP lies. The nearest moral equivalent to the BJP are the jihadis in Pakistan and anyone can see that.
Reddy
Bangalore, India
May 17, 2009 12:00 AM
37
s mishra

modi has been commended by corporate chiefs like tata.he got the nano project in 2 days flat.

the failures of the bjp in mahrashtra and rajasthan is puzzling. vasundhra raje is supposed to have done a good job in rajasthan.

banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
May 17, 2009 12:00 AM
36
mishra

i learnt a lot about india and its upper classes
dureing my self chosen role to improve delhi.
in all societies in the west people play a important role. in india none.

one woman said to me with your glee- you will not get anywhere with your plans.

a famous corporate lawyer said- no one will give you 10 rupees . people can spend fortunes on
garish festivities, but not on the public good.

you are a pretty daft woman if you did not know of bjp,s country,s plans.

dureing their last term they started work on the golden quadilateral highways. telecom got a huge boost. they started to privatise the sluggish and ineffective psu,s, but failed because of
opposition.

they made an informal alliance with usa and israel, which is still the king pin of india,s
foreign policy.

the bjp is a nationalist party, and no country
can achieve greatness without haveing pride
in itself. congress wallahs have none. they are
busy proveing that they have a polygot culture,
bragging about its achievments under the mughal
rule.

financial times in a column criticised the mms
regime for non performance, which can be added
to decades of nonperformance in the centre.

thats why india is so poor, incompetent where
ever the govt has a role.

the congress is a wash out- however if this is
still the party of your choice then you must have pretty low standards.

i remember the congress ministers like
shiv raj patil, the feeble gutless mms, and others after the assault on mumbai.

the same happened after all previous attacks,when
the congress was busy gaurding muslim fanatics
rather then helping the victims.

indians are much too slavish in their mentality.
just about any one can kick them around- no
wonder you feel comfortable with the dynasty.



banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
May 17, 2009 12:00 AM
35
The victory of congress is nothing but a shortsighted attitude of the Bharat,India did not vote for congress and this suits the congress it wants India to be Bharat the Bharat which was looted my mugals,enslaved by the british. The Bharat still has a slave mentality
aditya chopra
chandigarh, India
May 17, 2009 12:00 AM
34
BANITOADOLFO
ROMA ITALY

Tch Tch Tch...I guess it hurts to be called a "windbag" and "armchair commentator". Hence the claim of having started an NGO, right?

Well, what are you doing in Rome these days? Working with an Italian NGO that wants to spread Italian culture and remove non-Italians from the country?

You may (or may not) have founded an NGO but if you care so much about the country why are you not still in India trying to change the "lazy and childish" Indians?

Your mistake is to compare India to European nations. Such a comparison is pointless, illogical and cannot work because the two have nothing in common - not historically, not geographically, not economically, not sociologically.

You argue that "most nri,s well educated and articulate support the bjp. they dont support the congress."

You forget that NRIs can't/don't vote. So their "opinion" does not really matter in government formation in India, does it?

If the BJP has lost despite 26 November 2008, it is because they failed to provide a clear alternative or solution.

They were so confident that the anti-incumbency factor would be in play that they did not feel the need to raise sensible issues that matter to the Indian electorate.

And they lost because they assumed that the Indian electorate would be swayed by negative campaigning and abusive rhetoric with no serious alternative ideas to back those words.

Also frankly, a lot of Indians have financially prospered beyond their wildest dreams in the past five years and obviously they wanted that to continue. Unlike the educated NRIs who have the time and money to sit and discuss ideology and can afford to have high principles ordinary Indians do keep their pocketbooks in mind when they vote. And perhaps thinking about it that way the status quo didn't seem bad enough to change.
Smriti Mishra
Bombay, India
May 17, 2009 12:00 AM
33
Ms. Savarkar argues that "Whether Modi succeeded or not is besides the point".

Why is that besides the point? Why is the failure of the star BJP campaigner (who was in charge of the BJP campaign in Gujarat, Rajasthan, Maharashtra) to translate the crowds who attended his public meetings into votes for the BJP beside the point?

Gujarat is regarded as the laboratory of BJP but the social/political experiment that succeeded there does not seem to work outside the laboratory.

And that means the experiment is a failure.

And it does not bode well for the BJP that even in Gujarat they were not able to get close to the results that they expected and claimed they would get.

Smriti Mishra
Bombay, India
May 17, 2009 12:00 AM
32
Hi Mallika,
This is an excellent open letter to Shri Advaniji and it only shows the bankruptcy and rhetoric of BJP if they were not able to answer your simple questions.
These are very valid questions and instead of a debate from Manmohan Singhji, he should have been forthcoming as a good citizen of Gandhinagar, to answer it for them. Most of these big stalwarts do not even spend half the MPLAD funds provided to them by the government to spend for the betterment of the community.!!!!

Good letter and hope to see some more on these lines. Keep it up.
Arif Jameel
Dubai, UAE
May 17, 2009 12:00 AM
31
Gurujee, Bombay will always be Bombay for me. I was born and raised in Bombay not Mumbai. I chose to learn Marathi (instead of French) in school but my city was always good old Bombay.

No politicians or gurujees are going to change my mind about that.

Smriti Mishra
Bombay, India
May 17, 2009 12:00 AM
30
>>> The actual educated population of India live in urban areas like Bombay, Delhi, Chennai, Hyderabad etc, and you must know how the BJP did there, right? Modi had lots of public meetings in Bombay, right? Did it work?

Murkhi Mishra, for you "Madras" is Chennai but "Mumbai" is still "Bombay"!!! You may not like the new name, but it's reality and the name change has happened 13 years ago (much earlier than "Madras" was renamed as "Chennai").
Gurujee
Pune, India
May 17, 2009 12:00 AM
29
Mallika Sarabhai should first ask all these questions to herself. Linking the money given to Bangaru Laxman to Swiss bank shows her bankruptcy of brain.
Gurujee
Pune, India
May 17, 2009 12:00 AM
28
Reddy,
If you had an iota of common sense to go along with the large brain that you are so proud of, you would not be spending time sitting here defending madam sonia and her dynasty that takes the country for a ride on the pseudo secular bandwagon.
sunita savarkar
mumbai, India
May 17, 2009 12:00 AM
27
Mallika,

The issues raised by you are important and I will support your demand for an answer. But what I fail to understand and is are there no such issues in other parts of the state or country? Why haven't you raised your voice on these issues. If Laxman's bribe money was Indian black money would the value or importance of money stashed abroad reduce? You seem to have taken the defeat too personally. I can show you miles and miles of slums lined on both sides of the road and no one is concerned. Your editor lives in a Congress world where every thing seems so rosy and great! Have you ever asked him why so many people live in shanties with no basic amenities, kids eating off the garbage piles, lack of basic eduvation facilities after 52 years of Congress rule. You obviously believe in selective retention. Work for the oppressed and you will be rewarded some day but work with a partisan agenda you will stay where you are!
Srinivas
Lucknow, iNDIA
May 17, 2009 12:00 AM
26
Anwar, I beg to disagree. it is the ilk of 'dancers' like sarabhai and her pseudo secular ideas that have reduced india to what it is now, minus afghanistan, paki, bdesh, kashmir and soon to be other areas....these failed states have not only extracted their pound of flesh but now threaten to come back with a vengeance that is a good fit with the congress's style of pseudo secularism....
sunita savarkar
mumbai, India
May 17, 2009 12:00 AM
25
Ms Mishra,
Your writing skills and time may well be out to use somewhere else. Your instructions from madam sonia and the entire family cahout are certainly well articulated here. Whether Modi succeeded or not is besides the point - i can very well argue that inspite the gujarat riots the state with the well development record voted and empowered for the 'maut ka saudagar' a few years back. What is it that the pseudo seculars have for Congress today? there must be a feel good factor to be servile to a qualityless dynastic family...else why else would you be blindly put down the best administrator the country has ever had..
sunita savarkar
mumbai, India
May 17, 2009 12:00 AM
24
mishra

you have some damn cheek.

i have worked as founder of a ngo for several years with the aim to clean up delhi.

in this time i met top politicians, top officials, corporate figures, scientists,housewives, bus drivers -you name it.

i found that slovenly indians dont give a damn for their cities- they are lazy and childish.

its people like you who after wailing and moaning about the rotten congress govt after 26 november 2008,who either did not vote or voted for the congress.

i compare india to the european model-and people
like you are lowest on my list.

at least the bjp is a nationalist party. it has provided good govt in many states- it does have
a hang up about hindutwa- but sikhs have a hangup about their religion.

in punjab all top jobs are held by sikhs.

in j and k muslims rule the roost.

if bjp is guilty of favouring hinduism, then it
is no crime. the french,german and scandinavian
govts are all for their own cultures and religion.

respecting the religion and culture of the majority community is good and not bad. thats
what the bjp stands for.

modi has the support of top corporate leaders,
and intellectuals like sir. naipaul, and lord
meghnad desai.

most nri,s well educated and articulate support the bjp. they dont support the congress.
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
May 17, 2009 12:00 AM
23
Sunita Savarkar of Bombay claims "opinion polls on the internet will show that Modi and Advani are the choices of the educated"

Oh Ms. Savarkar, you are so naive. Please don't go by opinion polls on the internet. The only polls that actually count are those that actually take place on the ground under the helm of the Indian Election Commission.

The opinion polls on the internet are flooded by "educated supporters" of the BJP who are NRIs who have unhesitatingly chose to give up their Indian citizenship for sake of a US passport. They are armchair commentators and windbags who know to talk but don't care enough to keep their Indian citizenship and take a flight to India to get to a voting booth in India and vote. They like to claim they are helping India by sending dollars and pounds and euros to their families in India. And yes, they do take the time to repeatedly go to these internet opinion poll sites and vote so that the results are skewed in their favor.

The actual educated population of India live in urban areas like Bombay, Delhi, Chennai, Hyderabad etc, and you must know how the BJP did there, right? Modi had lots of public meetings in Bombay, right? Did it work?

Even in Gujarat why the BJP only manage to get 15 seats out of 26 instead of the 20 that they said they would. Why did Advani's vote margin reduce to 1,20,000 from 2,40,000? Why did Congress manage to make huge gains in MP?

Anti-incumbency, you say...well, why didn't we see that in Maharashtra, AP and Rajasthan?

So Ms Savarkar, if you count on the "educated supporters" of Advani and Modi that you find on internet opinion polls, you will be gravely disappointed because you will be actually counting on a few thousand US and Europe-based desis.

Ms. Sarabhai with a business degree from IIM-A IS the face of the educated Indian who lives in India and I bet she doesn't have the time to visit internet opinion polls.

Also for all those armchair critics and windbags who have been making personal comments about her family connections and background, why don't you have anything to say about the very valid questions she has been raising for Advani to answer which he naturally didn't care to answer since he didn't know the answers to?
Smriti Mishra
Bombay, India
May 17, 2009 12:00 AM
22
Mallika is a brave gujarati woman with malyalee liberal blood. Hope she will continue her good work in that terror land.
pear
mumbai, India
May 17, 2009 12:00 AM
21
iqbal z

muslim admire malika s, arundhati roy, all of whom are sympathatic to them.

their own secular women are chased out of the country. tasleema nasreen lives abroad, ayan hirsi ali, dr wafa sultan require police protection, and not one kind word is spoken about them by the 170 million minority community.

the popes critique against mehemmet got all the
muslims burning churches. if the holy koran is dropped, millions go around burning and killing.

great guys for talking about mallika s.
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
May 17, 2009 12:00 AM
20
There was a time when BJP got only two seats in entire India in a general election.
From that stage it's fortune skyrocketed on the promise of a RAM TEMPLE in Ayodhya and by demolishing Babri Masjid.

Advani's RathYathra brought deaths of innocent people and demolitions of many smaller masjid across India, fianlly cuminating in BJP capturing power.

Advani came from the present day Pakistan, as a refugee and could never come out of the trauma he might have undergone as a refugee running for life from Lahore to Delhi.

Whatever this demolition of BABRI MASJID, to a great extent helped indirectly by the attitude of stoick ,depressive silence from Narasimha Rao resulted in the decimation of Congress from UP and also led to caste based politicians to rise to power in Bihar and UP.
Many splinter parties and jokers started shining bright on the political scene giving rise to big ambitions for these regional leaders who thrived,survived and sustained by caste based identity.

Now this election, is really welcome not just because Congress came to power but because voters clearly rejected caste based politics and communal slogans , though not in full measure.

If this is only a begining and leads to UP,and Bihar to turn around , then this election is a great election.
BJP should be a strong opposition and shall devise a different strategy for winning elections rather than basing it on religious slogans.
bowenpalle venuraja gopal rao.
warangal, india
May 17, 2009 12:00 AM
19
Sunita Savarkar.

You have got it all wrong. Hate pracharaks of your ilk, and not Malika, are a threat to our nation.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
May 17, 2009 12:00 AM
18
Iqbal/Parbat/Ramdas/Abdullah/Thomas,

>> Is that why you are a rabid Islamist.

You are a born liar and a snake. And like all hate peddlers, you are a sore loser. Why can't you lick your wounds out of sight?

Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
May 17, 2009 12:00 AM
17
what makes you think you are important enough to get a response in matters of national politics. a parasite like you who lived off of a great father's legacy and wealth making unncessary noises intermitantly does not deserve a response from a national political leader. you are completely irrelevant and an embarrasment gujaratis have shunned which appeared in filthy gujju movies wearing colorful cholis just mind ur dance and finish the rest of your life and your daddy's wealth and go away.
anu
ujjain, India
May 17, 2009 12:00 AM
16
17/05/09

"but the BJP's policies on minorities borders on persecution"

But with Islam the minorities disappear completely. You can not demand something which you deny to others.
the sagacious
Los Angeles, United States
May 17, 2009 12:00 AM
15
"the pseudo secular that you are and those of the same ilk that support you, are the biggest threats to India's future. "

You mean after the drubbing the BJP received you still believe that ? If the Congress is pseudo-secular are you suggesting the BJP is secular ? Really ? And then you go on to claim the 'intelligenstia' vote for the BJP, but you are confused. Its the fundamentalist Hindus who end up voting for the BJP. In terms of economic policies the Congress and BJP are almost similar. You could argue that the Congress hasnt done much for minorities etc and you would still have a point but the BJP's policies on minorities borders on persecution. Thats the differentiator and most Indians could see through that. The truth is if you had half a brain you wouldnt vote BJP but if you were the Indian equivalent of our radicalized neighbors you would.
Reddy
Bangalore, India
May 17, 2009 12:00 AM
14
"Did the money accepted by your party’s then president Bangaru Laxman come from a Swiss bank account, or was it swadeshi black money? "

Dear Mailka Bhen

Cheer up madam Manohan Singh has promised us about three weeks back that 'give me 100 days more and I will bring back all the money in Swiss Banks '

Voters have given 5 years to him instead !!

Nearly 8 Billion USDs of the politicians are in the Swiss Banks which is being handled by Khan the Horse Hasan Khan the Horse Man from Pune .Khan is custody .The case is being examined by the Manmohan Govt for the Last two years .There is one list given to the Govt about two years back by the German Govt .Germans asked more details.The Govt of Manmohan supplied the names .But unforunately the details given were wrong and Indian Govt misled Germnas as they sy.The German Govt Documents were splashed by Mr Seth of the IBN-CNN .

Get confirmation from him and do enlighten us here.

So when I should count starting 100 days from Tuesday when the New Govt takes oath or afte rone week or one month there after.

By the way Madam Sarabhai you have been accused of "Kabuter Bazi ' ie illegaly taking people out of India .Hope you did not kept any money in Swiss Banks.

Madam you foolishly introduced the black money of Bhangaru Laxaman knowing very well that the Party which Ruled for 55 years has more money than BJP .What was that CLEAN CHIT TO SON-IN LAW issue ??

Madam I always call Secus foolish and stupid because you always raise the issues which should;t be ! Why talk of Swiss Accounts today ??

I am as worried about Swiss Banks as you are .SO WHEN SHOULD I SATRT COUNTING 100 DAYS ??
a k ghai
mumbai, India
May 17, 2009 12:00 AM
13
This election shows how impotent the BJP and its allies are. Until yesterday,they were shouting victorious, but the election results exposed them as bad losers. The NDA received good drubbing except in Gujrat, Chattisgarh,MP and Karnataka, where the gullible majority perhaps still believes that there is going to be a temple constructed at the Babri mosque site. Advani is in his eighties, almost near his grave. Manmohan has proved that he is a very "strong" PM, contrary to the opposition's ludicrous contention that he was a weak PM, who took diktats from Sonia. Sonia's sacrifices for this country are supreme. Now, it seems the Congress is reaping benefits out of her charisma and the common man is having a realization that she and her party deserve to be in the power.
Kalavati
Agra, Iceland
May 17, 2009 12:00 AM
12
It is funny to see our pseudo-seculars at their best....opinion polls on the internet will show that Modi and Advani are the choices of the educated....those criticizing Modi might want to reflect a little on what their feelings are for the genocide and ethnic cleansing of half a million kashmiri pandits....of course it does not matter for secularism is twisted in you pseudo secularist dictionaries..
sunita savarkar
mumbai, India
May 17, 2009 12:00 AM
11
Mallika, you are better off doing dancing than writing your piece of mind.....the pseudo secular that you are and those of the same ilk that support you, are the biggest threats to India's future.
sunita savarkar
mumbai, India
May 17, 2009 12:00 AM
10
Mallika Sarabhai is absolutely right. While Vajpayee elevated BJP to a nation building role Advani has been very narrow sighted. The underlying concept of Hinduism is Sanatan Dharma where inividuals are free to pursue their spiritual beliefs because all roads ultimately lead to the one Divine entity.The nomenclature does not matter. It is this greatness of thought that makes Hinduism so unique and superior to personality based religions of the world. Hindutva, on the other hand, goes against the essence of Hinduism. Advani should have directed his party to look at development programmes to uplift the misery of the people instead of mere rabble rousing. Will building a Ram Mandir help alleviate the misery of millions? BJP has to do a lot of soul searching. The reason Narendra Modi continues to do well in Gujarat is because of economic development-never mind his narrow sectarian views! The reason Nitish Kumar & Naveen Patnaik did well was because both have taken on development as their priority.Maybe Advani & BJP will learn from this.
dilip mahanty
sydney, Australia
May 17, 2009 12:00 AM
9
escoss from delhi

Please dont Yo me, save it for your fellow yanks or whatever other filth you rub up against. Your distasteful language is a dead giveaway to your misogynistic, sexist worldview. Please credit the Indian electorate with a little more sense than your condescending, self-pitying rant. Dipping into the sewer for inspiration is the traditional response of cowards like you who hide behind the anonymity of the net.

The BJP-RSS-VHP-BajrangDal combine got smacked by a bunch of kids. What are you guys gonna do next ? I am willing to bet you will continue terrorising the Indian population like your fellow Talibs next door.
Reddy
Bangalore, India
May 17, 2009 12:00 AM
8
ANWAR PATEL says:

"Malika Sarabhai is the kind of person I like to think of as a modern Indian and a true Hindu. As a Gujarati I am proud of her."

Is that why you are a rabid Islamist, supporting Islamist terrorist throat-cutters like Hamas, Hizbollah and the Afghan jehadis?

You inevitably like Hindus who are suckers for poisonous Islamist imperialism. A scoundrel "liking" his dupes.
Iqbal Z
Pune, India
May 17, 2009 12:00 AM
7
ESCOSS:

Had the Hindutva-vadis not killed a thousand Muslims in retaliation of the 58 killed on the train then surely many many more of us Hindus (in the Sarabhai mould) would have expressed our disgust at the burning of the train. When two disgusting events happen in quick succession there are many who sympathize with the one of greater magnitude. The Hindutva-vadis cannot seriously have thought that they could set right one wrong by doing a greater wrong and then appeal for sympathy and understanding from people.

And if you keep up-to-date with the news you ought to know that Modi had to return from Delhi where he was conducting pre-result negotiations with the NDA allies on behalf of the BJP because most of the allies were not comfortable having anything to do with him.

So a younger team is not automatically going to help the BJP. They will have to find leaders who don't have controversial pasts. Modi will work in Gujarat but his being the star campaigner for his party did not help the BJP in Maharashtra, Rajasthan etc.

As for you language...it mirrors the language that the BJP and Modi have used during the campaign. It is this kind of abusive language that has lost them votes.

You may not agree with Ms. Sarabhai and you may be upset about your party having lost the elections but I don't see any reason why you have to expose readers on this forum to your filthy language.
Smriti Mishra
Bombay, India
May 17, 2009 12:00 AM
6
Malika Sarabhai is the kind of person I like to think of as a modern Indian and a true Hindu. As a Gujarati I am proud of her.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
May 17, 2009 12:00 AM
5
******
As a proud Hindu and a proud Indian, I feel vilified by you.
******



:-) No, I think you should feel vilified because you are a buffoon.
Selvan
Boston, United States
May 17, 2009 12:00 AM
4
Yo Reddy - dont confuse voting for a good looking and younger team of Congress with rejection of BJp's policies. BJP deserved to lose because Advani and other older leaders don't understand that elections are won on branding and good looks. They may be politicians but can't seem to understand that they need to be king makers and not the kings.
escoss
delhi, India
May 17, 2009 12:00 AM
3
Listen Biach - you lost and you sound like a sore loser so shut your trap and crawl back to the cave you slithered out of.
People with confused thinking like yours confuse Hinduism with one way process of getting beat again and again - did you cry out for Hindu women & kids burned in a train cabin! NO! but you had no issues groveling for the murderers. Freaking bigot - that's what you are so don't preach as if you are not the scum.
escoss
delhi, India
May 17, 2009 12:00 AM
2
when i read people like sarabhai , i realise how splitted the hindu community is.

in fact the idea of hindutwa is an elitist idea,
which only a minority of hindus value.

the rest could not give a damn, and that is why
the bjp has such a impossible task.

sarabhai attacks the bjp, but has no words against the miserable lallos, paswans, mulayam
singhs, and other rotten lot.

sarabhai should stop calling herself a hindu, and
end her hypocritical babbling about sanatan dharma. she is no ornament to the hindu community.

in europe also some have started denigrateing their own culture- its not funny at all. they
have become victim to other faiths, and it will
ultimately damage their own civilisation.
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
May 17, 2009 12:00 AM
1
Kudos to Mallika Sarabhai for taking on this terrorist bigot. India has clearly shown its distaste for the BJP and the rest of their ilk. The days of Advanis and Modis are numbered but its unlikely these fetid old corpses will shrivel up and die, instead they will do what they do best ... sow hatred.
Reddy
Bangalore, India
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