AP
Pakistani Sikhs now being persecuted subscribe to Pashtun tribal customs
EXCLUSIVE
pakistan: plight of sikhs
History's Hostages
Held to a huge ransom by the Taliban, NWFP's Sikhs have nowhere to go
Jazia And Sikhs
  • In Orakzai, Taliban have imposed a sum of Rs 12 million as jazia on Sikhs
  • Contrary to media reports, the amount is not paid yet. Sikh families remain in the custody of Taliban.
  • In medieval times, jazia was levied on non-Muslims in an Islamic state
  • Those who paid jazia could follow their religion, provided protection
  • Since Muslims paid zakat or alms for the poor to the state, which was spent on welfare, non-Muslims had to contribute their share through jazia
  • But jazia was unpopular. Akbar removed it; Aurangzeb reimposed it.

***

Decades before the cartographer sliced the subcontinent into Pakistan and India, ancestors of Kalyan Singh demonstrated the wanderlust typical of the Sikh community. They settled down in the green, picturesque Ferozkhel valley of Orakzai, one of the seven autonomous agencies which together comprise what is now called the Federally Administered Tribal Area (FATA). In his own 45 years of life, Kalyan had never experienced religious discrimination. He ran his business, lived a contented life with his family. And, despite the intolerance now sweeping across a swathe of FATA, Kalyan Singh would have told you, had you ever asked him, that the sturdy Pashtuns are hospitable, caring and kind-hearted.

Kalyan Singh's feelings are now memories, his bucolic life in complete disarray. Much of Orakzai began to change when, early in 2008, Tehrik-e-Taliban leader Baitullah Mehsud's men swept in here from South Waziristan through the neighbouring North Waziristan, inaugurating a reign of terror. Soon, Hakimullah Mehsud, Baitullah's deputy, established an 'Islamic emirate' here, evoking horrific images of religious intolerance that scared a few Sikh families into migrating to Peshawar.

Kalyan Singh refused to shift out from what he saw as his ancestral home, believing he was safe living among the Orakzai tribals. But then, a fortnight ago, Hakimullah descended on the Ferozkhel valley and ordered members of the Sikh community, including women, to gather in an open area. They were told they were now in the custody of Taliban, and that they must pay jazia (a religious tax imposed on non-Muslims living under Islamic rule in the medieval times) or convert to Islam.

The soldiers of the Islamic emirate then picked up Kalyan Singh, tortured him in custody for 10 long days even as negotiations for the amount to be paid as jazia kept apace. Herjeet Singh, a local Sikh, quotes an eyewitness to say, "The militants convened a shura of their own and passed the verdict that Sikhs should pay Rs 100 million as jazia. Our elders pleaded that poor members of the community have no means to raise such a huge amount." Herjeet is among those who sneaked out of Orakzai before jazia was imposed.

The Sikh community's plea prompted further talks, with the Taliban scaling down their initial demand to Rs 40 million, ultimately agreeing to Rs 12 million as the jazia, a source told Outlook. Kalyan Singh was then set free and asked to raise the demanded amount. His and 50 other families were held hostage. They were warned that any attempts to escape would lead to the slaying of men and conversion of children and womenfolk to Islam. "This is unheard of.

 
 
The families taken hostage were told if they tried to escape, the men would be killed, others forced to convert.
 
 
Our forefathers lived among the Pashtuns for centuries and were never subjected to such humiliation and barbarism," laments Herjeet Singh.

Kalyan, these days, is in Peshawar, persuading the Sikh community here to somehow raise the whopping amount. Sources say he has managed to collect Rs 3.5 million. Only when Rs 12 million is paid fully will the Sikhs in Ferozkhel be set free, provided protection and allowed to practise their religion.

It's an onerous task for the Sikhs to raise the ransom, more so because the Sikhs constitute a minuscule percentage of NWFP, approximating just 10,000. Mainly concentrated in Peshawar, some of them migrated from Afghanistan during the reign of mujahideen and Taliban. They are mostly cloth merchants, or trade in cosmetics; a few are medical professionals. The Sikhs of the Tirah Valley in Khyber agency and parts of Orakzai are also engaged, as are local Afridi and Orakzai tribesmen, in the sale and purchase of hashish, a tribal custom many centuries old. Those living in FATA are as tribal as Pashtuns are, speaking the language with the same thick accent and eagerly participating in communal ceremonies such as marriages and funerals.


Taliban in Swat valley

The imposition of jazia marks a disruption of this tradition of harmony. The Orakzai tribals have, understandably, remained silent, fearing reprisal from the Pakistan Taliban, who are drawn mainly from the Mehsud tribe.

 
 
Orakzai pashtuns, with whom the Sikhs have lived for centuries, are too cowed down by the Taliban to protest.
 
 
An Orakzai jirga, for instance, was bombed by Mehsud's men last year, killing 160 elders and injuring another 200. The jirga had been summoned to raise a tribal armed force to evict the militants. The attack demoralised them, enabling Mehsud's men to establish their sway. Those who oppose the Taliban version of Islam are labelled as infidels and killed in cold blood. "We are told our prayers will not be answered because Allah will not entertain non-believers," said Soranjeet Singh, who recalled the conversation he had with a militant in Orakzai a few weeks ago. "We have not seen such people. They are neither Muslim nor Pashtun."

However, religious scholars and tribal elders in other areas have condemned the imposition of jazia. "No one has the right to create a state within the state and collect ransom in the guise of religion. Jazia can only be collected when there is a proper Islamic welfare state based on solid foundations," remarks Abdul Latif Afridi, a tribal elder from Khyber agency and president of the Peshawar High Court Bar. He says the jazia incident will not only give a bad name to the Pashtuns, but provoke a worldwide reaction. "Pakistan is already in the midst of so many troubles because of terrorism; the discrimination against the minorities will prove fatal," he said.

Sources also revealed that some Sikh families living in Ferozkhel have shifted to the Shia neighbourhood of Kalaya in Orakzai. The Shias are opposed to the Taliban, and at least in Kurram agency the two have been engaged in a protracted conflict for years now. But the option of shifting to Kurram, once jazia is paid, is unlikely to be exercised because all roads leading to the agency headquarters, Parachinar, have remained closed for the past two years, cutting off the Shias from the rest of the country.

Ultimately, the drama unfolding in Orakzai isn't just about the Sikhs. It's also about tribal customs. As Afridi says, "Our elders gave protection to all minorities who were counted among the recognised clans of our tribes, but it's such a pity that we can now neither protect nor rescue the Sikhs." His lament doesn't seem adequate to goad Islamabad into action.

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Daily MailPublished
COLLAPSE COMMENTS :
HAVE YOUR SAY
May 14, 2009 12:00 AM
408
stopperbhai

faruki was not thrown out by outlook,like i was.
he is outlooks pet.

he has i believe changed his name and adress to
protect himself from scrutiny. i dont suppose he wishes to be known too much to the dept of inland secureity.

i could ask friends in the american embassy in
copenhagen- but i am sure that my gut feeling is right.
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
May 13, 2009 12:00 AM
407
Sagacious/Thiagan,

>> For the followers, the law itself directs them to kill the others and rape their women.

It must be a great solace to the dalit men getting lynched and dalit women getting paraded naked to know that the caste Hindus doing it to them were not following any book! You just do not have the brains to know the simple truth that men in all societies kill and rape, and do not need any book to make them do that. You are such a dope!

>>>> "No major British paper has made any hue or cry over them. This is just grist for your hate mill!"
>> They will report and worry when Taliban reaches the 10, Downing Street.

A moron like you sitting in India has nore fore-knowledge of what will happen in England than those British newspapers! You are just a Cassandra, predicting gloom and doom all the time! Such rubbish!

>>>> "You are as bad as those Talibans."
>> I am following the followers.

You said that the painter and the dean in Vadodra Art School should be executed for blasphemy. That make you a Taliban
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
May 13, 2009 12:00 AM
406
Stopperbhai,

>> If today every one is critical of the Muslims its because ...

Everyone is not critical of Muslims. It may appear that way to empty-headed bigots like you and Banito.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
May 13, 2009 12:00 AM
405
13/05/09

"must be a great solace to the dalit men getting lynched and dalit women getting paraded naked to"

Plain rubbish.

"A moron like you sitting in India has nore fore-knowledge of what will happen in England than"

Again plain rubbish.

"That make you a Taliban."

I am not a follower of the Book.

the sagacious
Los Angeles, United States
May 13, 2009 12:00 AM
404
Sagacious/Thiagan,

Your trying to minimize all Hindu criminality with the argument that they were not following the Book is disingenuous and idiotic. Hindus, Muslims and Christians commit the same crimes, book or no book!

You do not have either the knowledge or the intelligence to tell British newspapers how to handle problems in England. You had only one solution, namely that the British Muslims should be dealt with by someone like Hitler! That is the attitude you bring to these questions in one way or another.

I called you Taliban because you proposed that the students and faculty at the Vadodra Fine Arts College should be killed. You are a kalank in this forum.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
May 13, 2009 12:00 AM
403
Stopperbhai,

>> the issue is who is a higher sinner.

You!
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
May 13, 2009 12:00 AM
402
Stopperbhai,

>> OUTLOOK forum thrown you out as Ghulam Faruki.

Untrue! Your lying and false attacks on people make you the 'higher' sinner.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
May 12, 2009 12:00 AM
401
faruki

muslims are more criticised in europe then in india.

stop blameing the rss.it seems to be your fig leaf.

everyone in europe is apalled at the treatment of muslim women by their own sons,brothers and fathers. dont make yourself absurd by denying the
obvious, as stated by many famous muslim women.

i heard tasleema nasreen in copenhagen. she is a muslim woman who was chased out by muslim fundamentalists in the most barbaric manner.
she was cheered by the entire audience of over 1000 people.her subject was the bad position of muslim women in bangladesh. she got the same treatment in india,thanks to pranab mukerjee
acting on behalf of indian muslims.

no muslims in outlook supported her.

the west listens to women like dr sultan, mukhtaran mai. you have the same opportunity to defend your point of view in the usa.

there is little doubt in the mind of nonmuslims that women have a very low position in islam,the
koran and muslim society.

i know that there are some muslim women who are doing well in the usa,and in other societies.
we have the example of benazir bhutto. turkey had a woman prime minister as well. but a few swallows do not a spring make.

after a few girls,women were killed and some buried alive in baluchastan some senators defended this,saying it was a tradition amongst them. the rest did not care much.

can you imagine this happening in india or the
west. human rights activists are a subdued lot,
in muslim countries. dr ebadi in iran has been harassed and jailed several times. benazir bhutto has been jailed and harassed.

islam looks at women in one way. the west in
quite a different way.women are treated with courtesy,kindness in the west.

i understand mehemmet saying about women.
their paradise is under their husbands foot.

i do not blame courteous ,refined muslims for
misbehaviour . there are several who love,respect
their wives. this is despite islam and koran.

banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
May 12, 2009 12:00 AM
400
Banito/Lalit,

>> muslims are more criticised in europe then in india.

So what? So what, for the 50th time!
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
May 12, 2009 12:00 AM
399
The great orator Manmohan SIngh said this about the anti-Sikh riots

"To a question of 1984 anti-Sikh riots, Singh said at a press conference that it was a "painful episode. But it cannot be kept alive for ever."

Fine. I agree with that. But why is Dec 6 being kept alive by Congress? Or the Gujarat riots? Why one standard for 1984 and another for 1992 or 2002?
Ganesan
Nj, USA
May 12, 2009 12:00 AM
398
faruki

just this. dont pick on the rss, bjp as a easy and convenient target.

they are not more intolerant then britts,danes,french.your obsession with the rss,
has destableised your mind.

it happens frequently that people like you put
all blame on a particular person, even though there are others who are more guilty.

muslims are faceing greater confrontation from usa,the west. there are no laloo prasads, mulayams,man mohan singh covering for muslims.

you should know.

by the way there are certain inherent differences
between muslims and nonmuslims in many parts of the world. i think there is no point in debateing this point. acceptance of this, and finding a modus vivendi is the only reasoneable
way.
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
May 12, 2009 12:00 AM
397
Ganesan,

>> But why is Dec 6 being kept alive by Congress? Or the Gujarat riots? Why one standard for 1984 and another for 1992 or 2002?

Is the BJP also ready to express regrets, apologize, reach out to the victims etc and swear not to indulge in communal riots/hate-speeches/incitement etc? If not, the issue is alive/active.
Kumar
Bangalore, India
May 12, 2009 12:00 AM
396
Kumar,

"Is the BJP also ready to express regrets, apologize, reach out to the victims etc and swear not to indulge in communal riots/hate-speeches/incitement etc? If not, the issue is alive/active."

Did Congress do that ? Last time I checked they were still giving tickets to people who were involved actively in the riots. They did eventually backed out more for election compulsion than for guilt feeling.
Maha
NJ, United States
May 12, 2009 12:00 AM
395
Maha,

>> Did Congress do that ? Last time I checked they were still giving tickets to people who were involved actively in the riots

They are all willing to express regrets, apologize, reach out to the victims etc and swear not to indulge in communal riots/hate-speeches/incitement etc for 1984. I am not saying that is enough, but many times better than deliberately continuing on a communal/racist path.
Kumar
Bangalore, India
May 12, 2009 12:00 AM
394
Banito,

>> muslims are more criticised in europe then in india.

They criticize the beliefs/practices in the name of Islam that are violative of rights of people and condemn the violators. That is good and required. That is not communalism/racism.
Kumar
Bangalore, India
May 12, 2009 12:00 AM
393
>> They are all willing to express regrets, apologize, reach out to the victims etc

They are doing absolutely nothing of the sort. They are only following a path that they think will fetch them the most seats/allies. Only an absolute idiot shall take their words at face value, and only a hypocrite shall accept them, while simultaneously describing Advani's Babri Masjid statements as meaningless.

Had they been genuinely sorry, they would have hunted down the killers of 84, and blackened Rajiv Gandhi's name as the perpetrator of the genocide, calling him a mass murderer, in the same league as Modi. Instead, they gave tickets to Tytler and Sajjan Kumar, withdrawing them only when it became politically inconvenient.
Al Bundy
San Francisco, United States
May 12, 2009 12:00 AM
392
Banito/Lalit,

>> dont pick on the rss, bjp as a easy and convenient target. they are not more intolerant then britts,danes,french.

That may be the perception of a dyed-in-the-wool sanghi like you, but you are wrong. Moreover vicious attacks on the Congress and the Communists do not seem to bother anyone in this forum, so why so much sensitivity about BJP's parivar?
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
May 12, 2009 12:00 AM
391
Stopperbhai,

>> whole non Muslim world is looking upon the Muslims with suspicion and apprehension.

Wrong! They are rightfully apprehensive of the fanatics and the terrorists. This apprehension exploited and magnified by zionist writers and by apostates in the pay of zionists. And we have all-to-ready amen sayers like you, Banito and Sagacious.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
May 12, 2009 12:00 AM
390
Nearly a million people are on exodus in Pakistan. Great news. Now which country had a official policy of bleeding India thro' a thousand cuts? I keep forgetting the name of the country.
Ganesan
Nj, USA
May 12, 2009 12:00 AM
389
12/05/09

"If I compare the best of the Muslim society with the worst of the Hindu society, it would not please you."

Wonderful. Name five best aspects of Islam; I will give the first one. Inexhaustible libido power.
the sagacious
Los Angeles, United States
May 12, 2009 12:00 AM
388
12/05/09

"UK) falsely charged as legitimate expenses, they are trivial,"

Welfare payments to terror suspects in house arrest is trivial; you have reinforced my contention that you are a dormant jihadi.
the sagacious
Los Angeles, United States
May 12, 2009 12:00 AM
387
12/05/09

"A university art exhibition or a painting that hindutva groups deem as a religious offence, they go on ransacking and beating people etc."

Apparently you are referring to the MS University Baroda incidents. What are the paintings?

> one shows Jesus on the cross with his hands and legs visible and phallus hanging out, spewing semen into a commode

> second is of Durga killing a baby, emerging from her womb with a trident

> third one shows virat swaroop of Lord Vishnu holding his own phallus, surrounded by several other penises
> fourth one shows a shivaling surrounded by phalluses from which the painter's bust emerges

In all fairness the painter and the dean should be executed for blasphemy.
the sagacious
Los Angeles, United States
May 12, 2009 12:00 AM
386
12/05/09

"But even lynching of dalits or parading dalit women naked etc will not move them even an inch."

Rubbish. There is a law that takes care of the wrong doers.
the sagacious
Los Angeles, United States
May 12, 2009 12:00 AM
385
12/05/09

"Communists do not seem to bother anyone in this forum, so why so much sensitivity about BJP's parivar?"

Any attack on BJP is an indirect attack on Hindu majority, aimed at its ultimate destruction by the secular fanatics.

the sagacious
Los Angeles, United States
May 12, 2009 12:00 AM
384
>> Nearly a million people are on exodus in Pakistan. Great news.

Let's not gloat just yet. I am really scared that some of the moronic bleeding hearts, the Wagah candle wallahs, might suggest that we take these refugees as a goodwill/humanitarian gesture.

Never underestimate the power of the seculars to turn an opportunity into a disaster.
Al Bundy
San Francisco, United States
May 12, 2009 12:00 AM
383
12/05/09

"I am not saying that is enough, but many times better than deliberately continuing on a communal/racist path."

Rubbish. Only MMS apologised during the election campaign in 2004. Rajiv and Sonia never did. Twenty ears later and for 3000 killed; we will also apologise eighty years later for Gujarat; the number killed is 800.
the sagacious
Los Angeles, United States
May 12, 2009 12:00 AM
382
12/05/09

"apologize, reach out to the victims etc and "swear not to indulge in communal riots/hate-speeches/incitement etc? If not, the issue is alive/active."

Rubbish. Kumar, you are always one sided, like all secular fanatics. Does Islam guarantee not to carry on with hate speeches and refrain from physically eliminating its minoritis? It can not because it has to abandon the Book.
the sagacious
Los Angeles, United States
May 12, 2009 12:00 AM
381
Sagacious/Thiagan,

>> Name five best aspects of Islam.

Number one : We don't have any Sagacious/Thiagan that we need to be ashamed of! Idiot does not understand that I was not referring to the best aspects of any religion, but the best sections of a society. If we compare the most educated and cultured elite of the Muslim society and compare them with the most uneducated Hindu morons like yourself, that would not be a fair comparision, would it?

>> Welfare payments to terror suspects in house arrest is trivial.

No major British paper has made any hue or cry over them. This is just grist for your hate mill!

>> the painter and the dean should be executed for blasphemy.

You are as bad as those Talibans.

>> There is a law that takes care of the wrong doers.

In spite of the law, dalit men get lynched and dalit women get paraded naked. You are just too dishonest to acknowledge it.

>> Any attack on BJP is an indirect attack on Hindu majority.

That is a fascist remark. If Congress and Communists can be attacked, and the BJP cannot be attacked, that is the end of democracy. How come you are so stupid?

Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
May 12, 2009 12:00 AM
380
Sagacious/Thiagan,

>> Does Islam guarantee not to carry on with hate speeches and refrain from physically eliminating its minoritis?

How does Islam enter into this argument? Are you a total idiot?
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
May 12, 2009 12:00 AM
379
faruki

i admire people like fareed zakaria, salman rushdie, omar abdullah, m.j.akbar-

however how many of them are there.

the muslims community has few of these and lots
of the fanatics.

in the case of other communities its the other way around.

this made mr ardeshir cowasjee of dawn come up with his adverse remarks about pakistani,s.

you are liveing with many delusions- just meet
ordinary americans and they will let you know.

there is no community which is so criticised in
europe. there are reasons. dont run away from facts. dont clutch at straws because you are drowning.

most of all i am appalled at your faulty logic.
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
May 12, 2009 12:00 AM
378
"Any attack on BJP is an indirect attack on Hindu majority.

That is a fascist remark. If Congress and Communists can be attacked, and the BJP cannot be attacked, that is the end of democracy. How come you are so stupid? "

Maulvi ji like you said that if we criticise Talibans then we are criticising Islam and Muslims ?

Khushi Ram
ambala cantt, India
May 12, 2009 12:00 AM
377
Segacious,

>> Does Islam guarantee not to carry on with hate speeches ..

That is like asking, can hinduism guarantee that there will not be any hate-speeches? The question cannot be answered because there are many hindus who want to guarantee that, but there are many others who want to pursue hate-speeches. In the same manner, there are Muslims on both sides as well. Those who want to pursue the path of hate-speeches, violence, communal wars etc should be taken to task ideologically and by the law/police/army etc where required.
Kumar
Bangalore, India
May 12, 2009 12:00 AM
376
12/05/09

"The question cannot be answered because there are many hindus who want to guarantee that,"

Rubbish. I have answered the question in the comment itself. They can not do that without abandoning the Book.
the sagacious
Los Angeles, United States
May 12, 2009 12:00 AM
375
12/05/09

"In spite of the law, dalit men get lynched and dalit women get paraded naked."

Idiot. For the followers, the law itself directs them to kill the others and rape their women.
the sagacious
Los Angeles, United States
May 12, 2009 12:00 AM
374
12/05/09

"No major British paper has made any hue or cry over them. This is just grist for your hate mill!"

They will report and worry when Taliban reaches the 10, Downing Street.

the sagacious
Los Angeles, United States
May 12, 2009 12:00 AM
373
12/05/09

"You are as bad as those Talibans."

Idiot. I am following the followers.

the sagacious
Los Angeles, United States
May 12, 2009 12:00 AM
372
" I am really scared that some of the moronic bleeding hearts, the Wagah candle wallahs, might suggest that we take these refugees as a goodwill/humanitarian gesture."

That is most likely to happen if the succus come back to power again on May 16th-which looks like a real possibility now.

I think atleast we will see some financial aid given to Pak-in terms of money, food, clothing etc. Like the kashmiri swines, they will use the money from us to kill us.
Ganesan
Nj, USA
May 12, 2009 12:00 AM
371
Segacious,

>> They can not do that without abandoning the Book

I do not agree with that. There are many Muslims who believe in Quran, but do not indulge in or support hate-speeches, communal incitement/warfare etc. How/Why is their prerogative. If you think that they are wrongly understanding/interpreting the Book, you are free to challenge them in a debate.
Kumar
Bangalore, India
May 12, 2009 12:00 AM
370
kumar

exmuslims who debate with dogmatic muslims have a job just staying alive.

you are a sanctimonious bore,who has no idea of the reality of life in muslim communities.

you should read foreign media to broaden your outlook.
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
May 12, 2009 12:00 AM
369
Khushi Ram/Minu,

>> you said that if we criticise Talibans then we are criticising Islam and Muslims ?

You are a born liar. You posted this once before, and I told you that I was talking only about you and Sagacious, because all your post are a part of a bitter anti-Muslim hate prachar program, and you patently use the Taliban stories to exacerbate the ill-feelings against Muslims in general. Don't try to look innocent. You hardly write anything at all which is not designed to vilify Muslims.

I have condemned the Taliban strongly and frequently myself, because they are savages. I have also criticized the BJP, because it is a political party. Saying that you can't criticze the BJP because it hurts the feelings of Hindus is clearly anti-democratic. You and Sagacious are the only morons who cannot see that.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
May 11, 2009 12:00 AM
368
Banito/Lalit,

>> the first generation has some affection for india. the second generation has practically
none.

I do not agree. Your daughters of course have a Danish mother, which may have made a difference. My daughter went to India every chance she got from the programs offered by her college, once to work with a woman's group in Delhi ('Manushi', run by Madhu Kishwar), and, as a law student, she spent a summer with an Indian law professor studying the legal problems faced by Dalits in Madurai. My son has a deep interst in Indian arts and architecture. Most children of Indian parents here show an interst in Indian politics e.g the nuclear treaty, and in classics such as the Ramayana. They may verbally express an aversion to learning Hindi, but it is normal for teen-agers to resent imposed 'learning'.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
May 11, 2009 12:00 AM
367
Sagacious/Thiagan,

>> The Nagpur murders are plain murders; they do not carry the flavour of honour killings and the remnants of a heritage that treats women as dirt.

"Honour killings and the remnants of a heritage that treats women as dirt." Big difference! And in any case the woman ends up dead! Why do you keep making these moronic arguments.

>> The issue is immmigrants from Algeria are more loyal to their home country than to France. Indians in USA can have faith or affection to India but their primary loyalty ahould be to USA.

These points are not derived from the survey you mentioned. You just made them up. Are all hate pracharaks idiots?
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
May 11, 2009 12:00 AM
366
Stopperbhai,

>> so should be the acts of a few Hindu men behaving and treating their wives.

When I posted the news report showing that two Hindu men had killed their wives, I was not casting any aspersions on the whole Hindu community. I was answering hate pracharak Sagacious's post about a Muslim 'honor killing'. If you and other Hindu posters can repudiate the hate pracharaks in this forum, I would not have to answer them.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
May 11, 2009 12:00 AM
365
faruki

your parotting of the word hate pracharak is offensive to many here.

you dont like being called a assura biju.

so be more polite in future.

banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
May 11, 2009 12:00 AM
364
faruki

say hello to your kids from me.

not their fault that you are a assura biju- but
not the worst kind.
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
May 11, 2009 12:00 AM
363
11/05/09

"treats women as dirt." Big difference!"

"These points are not derived from the survey you"

The closed brains of the jihadis can never understand that a belief system that treats woemn as dirt is plainly barbaric and it is altogether different from a plain murder.

The results are the survey are plain for any intelligent person but not for brain washed idiots.
the sagacious
Los Angeles, United States
May 11, 2009 12:00 AM
362
11/05/09

Kumar. Secularism invariably leadts to dhimmitude. It is yet another proof that UK is a dhimmi state. Read:

"TERROR suspects under house arrest are claiming up to £60.50 a week in ­Jobseeker’s Allowance.
In the latest example of ­soft-touch Britain, 22 out of 23 extremists who applied for the state benefit received it.

Yet none of them is available for work. Severe restrictions are placed on their ­movement because they are deemed a risk to national security.

The taxpayer-funded handouts last night sparked outrage among politicians and campaign groups who said it was yet another reminder of why extremists hellbent on ­destroying Western civilisation make a beeline for Britain.

Tory MP Patrick Mercer, a former Army officer and chairman of the Commons counter-terrorism subcommittee, said: “Surely this is nonsense. If they are under control orders they will not be seeking jobs.

“All we are doing is pouring more taxpayers’ money into a ­bottomless pit. In times of economic crisis, this will infuriate hard-pressed people.”...

The Home Office admits all but one of 23 suspects who claimed the benefit were successful. In a case that calls into question whether Government departments talk to each other, the Department for Work and Pensions says that people can only receive Jobseeker’s Allowance if they show they are “capable of working, available for work and actively seeking work”.

Suspects’ ­families often also get financial help from charities such as Helping Households Under Great Stress, an Islamic group supporting families affected by terror arrests...."

The secular Congress in India will be making paymets to Afzal Guru under NREGA scheme but for BJP.
the sagacious
Los Angeles, United States
May 11, 2009 12:00 AM
361
11/05/09

Kumar. Can these crazies ever be reformed? Read:

"LONDON // A Muslim chef is suing Britain’s largest police force, claiming he suffered religious discrimination because he was expected to cook bacon and pork sausages for breakfast.

Hasanali Khoja is due to put his case against the Metropolitan Police to an employment tribunal, which starts a 10-day hearing in London tomorrow.

The case has caused outrage in the British press and has been seized on by far right political parties, being branded “the madness of multiculturalism” by the British National Party.

Mr Khoja, 60, whose claim is being backed by both the Association of Muslim Police and the National Black Police Association, says he was refused permission not to handle pork when he took a job as catering manager at a police headquarters in west London.

Instead, he said his supervisor suggested he wear gloves when preparing a “999 breakfast” – a policeman’s favourite that includes bacon, pork sausages and black pudding, which is made from pigs’ blood."

What are the reasons cited in his favour? Read:

"But Khalid Sofi, Mr Khoja’s lawyer, insisted there was “an important issue of principle at stake” in the case, with ramifications for the police and wider society in Britain.

“He has genuine and strong religious beliefs and expects that they will be accommodated,” he said. “’The Met is a very large organisation and could easily have met his demands.

“Mr Khoja’s case raises the general question of the Met accommodating the needs of the Muslim community at a time when there is a lack of confidence in the police among Muslims.

“We are confident that we have a very good claim. Religious discrimination law obliges employers if possible to accommodate genuine religious needs.

“This case goes in to wider issues of diversity and I think it raises significant issues in the current climate.”

A spokesman for the National Black Police Association said: “It was suggested that he could wear gloves to cook bacon and sausages. This, of course, was no good because it is the principle involved and not about just handling the meat.

“It was all very, very nasty. They were telling him to do something that was against his faith."

The followers are a menace to any plural society.


the sagacious
Los Angeles, United States
May 11, 2009 12:00 AM
360
your parotting of the word hate pracharak is offensive to many here..
BANITOADOLFO

More than being offensive I am bored stiff of his (AP) repetitive usage of the same words juggled again& again & again & again & again ad infinitum...
sandilya
Chennai, India
May 11, 2009 12:00 AM
359
Sagacious,Thiagan,

>> a belief system that treats woemn as dirt is plainly barbaric.

Belief system is in your brain. Are you gpoing to excuse wife killing and 5,000 dowry deaths a year with such stupid arguments?

>> The results are the survey are plain for any intelligent person....

You read a lot more in them then the data warrants. Hate pracharaks, for some reason, are such terrible idiots!

>> TERROR suspects under house arrest are claiming up to £60.50 a week in ­Jobseeker’s Allowance.

Cabinet ministers in Britain are in hot water for bizarre vouchers to the exchequer for their private expenses, and here you are, a moron, carping about some petty sums claimed by some morons like you!

>> A Muslim chef is suing Britain’s largest police force, claiming he suffered religious discrimination because he was expected to cook bacon and pork sausages for breakfast.

Such tidbits can be of interest only to a hate-filled idiot like yourself.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
May 11, 2009 12:00 AM
358
Stopperbhai,

>> Have you written whats happening o your Pakistani brothers who are caught in the middle of dual dangers from the Pakistani army and the Talibanis.

Brilliant question! Now go to the back of the class, put on the dunce hat and stand in the corner.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
May 11, 2009 12:00 AM
357
Sandilya,

>> I am bored stiff of his (AP) repetitive usage...

Replying to the same repetitive hate pracharaks who have the same repetitive themes! Those hate pracharaks never seem to bore you!
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
May 11, 2009 12:00 AM
356
11/05/09

"Belief system is in your brain."

This is the belief system you practise; women are deemed to the property of men. They can be hired and fired, as in the corporate world. What is an intermediate and muta marriage? It is plain barbarism.

"and here you are, a moron, carping about some petty sums claimed by some morons"

For a closet jihadi, welfare payments made to suspected terrorists in house custody, will appear trivial and inconsequential. These are the small steps that are engineered by stealth jihad in the making of Londonistan.

"Such tidbits can be of interest only to a hate-filled idiot like yourself."

It is yet another evidence for the dreamy eyed hallucinators like Kumar, who imagine that the followers can ne reformed.

the sagacious
Los Angeles, United States
May 11, 2009 12:00 AM
355
Segacious,

>> It is yet another evidence for the dreamy eyed hallucinators like Kumar, who imagine that the followers can ne reformed.

The same facts can be used to make different kinds of arguments and to reach different kind of conclusions. The news reports you are collecting and posting, I welcome it, if the argument you are making is that there are there are worldwide rights violations in the name of Islam and hence the need to condemn and demand a change (towards secular democracy for example). If the argument made is that of a religious criticism where a certain religious doctrines (like concept of religious warfare, politics inherently linked to religion and religious identity of citizens, tradition of violent retaliation etc) are criticized and the news items are used to demonstrate the criticism, even then, I welcome it. But if the argument is that any person born a muslim (and does not care/want to convert) is necessarily/inherently inferior human being or guilty etc, I would strongly oppose it 9as I would in all such cases of communalism/casteism/racism etc)
Kumar
Bangalore, India
May 11, 2009 12:00 AM
354
11/05/09

"But if the argument is that any person born a muslim (and does not care/want to convert) is necessarily/inherently inferior human being or"

Rubbish. Let us take the case of collection of jazia from the Sikhs in Swat valley. How many muslims protested in India against the barbarism; there were none. But there were violent and ugly processions and protests against Danish cartoons in India and elsewhere in the world. In their perception, the cartoons were more offensive and objectionable that jazia collection from the minorities. Where are the muslims you refer to?
the sagacious
Los Angeles, United States
May 11, 2009 12:00 AM
353
Segacious,

>> Let us take the case of collection of jazia from the Sikhs in Swat valley. How many muslims protested in India against the barbarism; there were none.

Who ever wrote articles about it or spoke about Jizya, condemned it. I agree that the level of protest (not just about Jizya, but about the various rights violations that happen in islamic nations) is not enough and you can condemn it, just I do.

>> But there were violent and ugly processions and protests against Danish cartoons in India and elsewhere in the world. In their perception, the cartoons were more offensive and objectionable that jazia collection from the minorities.

That is a problem. The extremists/radicals react violently on religious issues and not for real issues of fairness/justice/rights/truth etc. A university art exhibition or a painting that hindutva groups deem as a religious offence, they go on ransacking and beating people etc. But even lynching of dalits or parading dalit women naked etc will not move them even an inch. Have you seen a hindutva groups ever protest such a thing? The kind of people who protest against dalit atrocities, atrocities on women etc, don’t take to violence and so it appears as if there is no protest. The same thing is seen when you compare the protest for Danish cartoons vs protest against Jizya. Having said this, I fully agree with you and join you in strongly condemning the low levels of protest against the rights violations in islamic countries.
Kumar
Bangalore, India
May 11, 2009 12:00 AM
352
kumar

i regard you as a muslim or a christian fanatic-

every time there is some horror comitted by muslims you start your dirge about dalits being
mistreated by rss.

rss does not ill treat dalits-even a moron like you should know that.

the ones who create problems for them are obc,s
and thats because of conflict of interest.

no party in india supports unfairness against
dalits,muslims etc. everyone has the right to vote,equality before law, the opportunity in
getting jobs on merit. they can rise to the top
in politics-

your ignorance and stupidity are breath takeing.
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
May 11, 2009 12:00 AM
351
banito,

Stealth conversion is very difficult in a Muslim majority. A single detected attempt will be crashed right away with such a severity that it will be a tiresome job to find any residue e.g. a water-melon under 5000 psi ! Wise Christians know that.
dip
Dhaka, Bangladesh
May 11, 2009 12:00 AM
350
Sagacious/Thiagan,

>> Let us take the case of collection of jazia from the Sikhs in Swat valley. How many muslims protested in India against the barbarism.

Why do you lie so much? About 50 Muslim organizations have protested loudly against the jazia. Organizations in England and America too have severely criticized it. I have posted here several of their statements. I don't know how you missed them all. Even the separatist Kashmiri leader Gillani has condemned it. Is lying a part of your hate-prachar training, or are you just a natural-born moron?
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
May 11, 2009 12:00 AM
349
Sagacious/Thiagan,

>> women are deemed to the property of men.

Until the Hindu laws of the 20th century were passed, the status and state of Hindu women was nothing to be proud of either. You seem to compare the best of the Hindu society with the worst of the Muslim society. If I compare the best of the Muslim society with the worst of the Hindu society, it would not please you. Suffice it to say that a lot of Muslim women are now educated, a lot of them have careers as teachers, social workers, doctors and journalists. In the home, they rule the roost, pretty much as in Hindu homes. But if you could take all that into account, you would not be the hate pracharak that you are.

>> welfare payments made to suspected terrorists in house custody, will appear trivial and inconsequential.

Compared to the what their cabinet ministers (in UK) falsely charged as legitimate expenses, they are trivial, except to a hate spreading moron like you.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
May 11, 2009 12:00 AM
348
Stopperbhai,

>> Is there any thing that you can be proud of a Muslim woman ever since Islam came into existence.

Your ignorance is immense. The parivar has created such an atmosphere of hate and misinformation over the past half a century that ignorance such as yours can exist and thrive.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
May 11, 2009 12:00 AM
347
Stopperbhai,

>> Can you post again those several posts which you claimed to have condemned the collection of Jazia.

If you missed them the first time, you will miss them the second time also.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
May 10, 2009 12:00 AM
346

Anwar Patel,

Keep on your continual verbatim.

But before that have a deep breath and relax.
Go to your CD player,
search for Boney M and listen...

Hooray! hooray! it's a holi-holiday...

What a gloomy start!
dip
Dhaka, Bangladesh
May 10, 2009 12:00 AM
345
10/05/09

"an ignoramus, you probably have not been following the press reports."

Rubbish.
the sagacious
Los Angeles, United States
May 10, 2009 12:00 AM
344
Sagacious/Thiagan,

>>>> "an ignoramus, you probably have not been following the press reports."
>> Rubbish.

I would concede that you do keep up to date with all the anti-Muslim hate websites.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
May 10, 2009 12:00 AM
343
10/05/09

"you miss out on a lot of stories in the Indian press"

Rubbish. The operative part of the story is:" he was very young, he had a "profound attachment" to his heritage, which shaped his views of relationships between men and women, Moors said." That is honour kiling as against a plain murder. A brain washed idiot can not appreciate the difference.
the sagacious
Los Angeles, United States
May 10, 2009 12:00 AM
342
10/05/09

Kumar. Eighty percent of the muslims in France are loyal to the country of their origin and not to France; they are there only to draw welfare pay outs. Is this a desitrable minority? Read:

"ANSAmed) - PARIS, MAY 8 - Some 80% of Muslims in France believe they remain faithful to their countries of origin, according to a survey by the American Gallup research institute that questioned a sample of Muslims in 27 countries. In all 8% said they were not faithful to their original countries and 12% did not reply. The research also showed that in Britain Muslims "loyal" to their original countries amount to 82% and in Germany the figure is 71%. The survey published yesterday but carried out in 2008 adds that only 44% of French of other religions believe that are faithful to their country against 35% who believe the contrary and 21% who didn't reply. The French emerged as the most tolerant on religious matters and, together with the Dutch, the most willing in Europe to welcome a neighbour of another religion. At the other end of the spectrum are the Israelis who say openly that they do not respect other religions, according to the survey. The poll, carried out with the support of the Coexist Foundation, a British charity that promotes inter-religious relations, covered a sample of 500 Muslims per country. The samples of people from other religions varied from 100 to 1000 people in size."
the sagacious
Los Angeles, United States
May 10, 2009 12:00 AM
341
Sagacious/Thiagan,

>> he had a "profound attachment" to his heritage, which shaped his views of relationships between men and women.

And the two who killed their wives in Nagpur had no attachment to their heritages which shaped their views of relationships between men and women? How come you are so clueless?

>> Some 80% of Muslims in France believe they remain faithful to their countries of origin.

How many Indians in America are unfaithful to India? Were you always so dumb, or did you become dumb after you started hate prachar for the sangh?
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
May 10, 2009 12:00 AM
340
Segacous,

>> Eighty percent of the muslims in France are loyal to the country of their origin and not to France;

The report did not seem to say the last part of your statement "not to France". One can have multiple identities. As long as one is loyal to his human identity and behave as a good/sensible human being, all other loyalties and relationships fall in their proper place and in an appropriate way.

>> “The French emerged as the most tolerant on religious matters and, together with the Dutch, the most willing in Europe to welcome a neighbour of another religion. At the other end of the spectrum are the Israelis who say openly that they do not respect other religions”

I just want to comment on the above statement, to be fair to Israelis. Christians and Muslims are forced to respect Judaism as a parent religion which forms the basis/foundation of their faith, while Judaism has no such obligation. Christianity and Islam do not claim to be new religions, but as continuity of Judaism. On the other hand, Jew has no such obligation and in fact, to remain has Jew, has to reject the central Christian/Muslim claims (even if he respects people of all other religions as human beings, which is the real basis of tolerance). I do not know how exactly the survey is conducted and how the questions are framed etc, but this factor needs to be taken into account.

Kumar
Bangalore, India
May 10, 2009 12:00 AM
339
faruki

your constant and frequent use of the word hate prachar shows that you are yourself full of hate,
and as a result have become mentally unbalanced.

go to any person with common sense and he will conmfirm this.
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
May 10, 2009 12:00 AM
338
faruki

my nephew who is a docor in usa told his kids.

you should learn hindi,and they replied.

we are americans. why should we learn hindi.

the first generation has some affection for india. the second generation has practically
none. look at bobby jindal. a american in every
way- that goes for most.
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
May 10, 2009 12:00 AM
337
faruki

i am certain that most muslims do not defend jazia.

however the concept is a pretty awful one. thank
heavens that this is now absent in most muslim countries.
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
May 10, 2009 12:00 AM
336
10/05/09

"And the two who killed their wives in Nagpur had no attachment to their heritages which shaped their........."

Idiot. The Nagpur murders are plain murders; they do not carry the flavour of honour killings and the remnants of a heritage that treats women as dirt.

"How many Indians in America are unfaithful to India?"

You are an incorrigible idiot. The issue is immmigrants from Algeria are more loyal to their home country than to France. Indians in USA can have faith or affection to India but their primary loyalty ahould be to USA. You have little or no comprehension skills.
the sagacious
Los Angeles, United States
May 10, 2009 12:00 AM
335
10/05/09

"The report did not seem to say the last part of your statement "not to France". One can have multiple identities."

I am afraid you are confused. If eighty percent say that their loyalty is to Algeria, it is apparent that the loyalty is not to France. You can not have loyalty to many countries; even in identities, in my identity as a husband, my loyalty should be to my wife and not to some other woman.
the sagacious
Los Angeles, United States
May 10, 2009 12:00 AM
334
Segacious,

>> You can not have loyalty to many countries; even in identities, in my identity as a husband, my loyalty should be to my wife and not to some other woman

As I said, a person has to be loyal to his/her human identity and behave as a good/sensible human being, then all other loyalties and relationships fall in their proper/ appropriate place. The nature of loyalty/identity/relationship etc may vary as a son, a father, brother, husband, neighbor etc there is an appropriate kind in each case. (BTW, I am not saying that there is no problem with any muslim immigrants at all – there are issues that needs to be addressed. I am only responding to the specific conclusion you have reached based on that report)
Kumar
Bangalore, India
May 09, 2009 12:00 AM
333
Stopperbhai,

The sole object of all your dumb posts addressed to me seems to be to simply malign me, but all you end up doing is to show yourself to be dense.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
May 09, 2009 12:00 AM
332
09/05/09

"Just don’t equate the good and the bad, solely on communal/racist considerations."

First it was the Book that tells the believers to kill the kaffirs; I react to the threat. Two, in Pakistan there is a civil society and why there is no protest and demonstrations against the jazia on Sikhs. The entire umma is agreed on the jazia levied on the kafirs and it is in alignment with the religious injunctions. Where are the good followers?
the sagacious
Los Angeles, United States
May 09, 2009 12:00 AM
331
09/05/09

Kumar, do you still have hopes that secular democracy will change the followers. In all probability, the followers will change the secular democracy into a theocratic killing machine. Another honour killing and now in Canada.

"Sadiqi's defence lawyers have indicated they will not dispute that Sadiqi was responsible for the killings, but will argue that he is not guilty of murder because he was provoked.

During his opening statements, Moors told the court that Sadiqi shot his 20-year-old sister, Khatera, and her fiancé, Feroz Mangal, with a .44 Magnum revolver while they sat in a parked car at the Elmvale Acres shopping plaza, at St. Laurent Boulevard and Smyth Road, just before 1 a.m. on Sept. 19, 2006.

Sadiqi, a Canadian of Afghan descent, is charged with two counts of first-degree murder. The court is expected to hear he was upset because his sister got engaged without the permission of their father and had moved in with Mangal's family, Moors told the five-woman, seven-man jury.

The trial is expected to hear that Sadiqi believed that his sister had brought dishonour upon the Sadiqi name, Moors said, later adding that a witness is expected to testify that Sadiqi said after the killing that he believed his sister would be a martyr and go to paradise.

Although Sadiqi came to Canada when he was very young, he had a "profound attachment" to his heritage, which shaped his views of relationships between men and women, Moors said. The Crown intends to lead expert testimony regarding honour killings, he said."


http://www.jihadwatch.org/


They will always have a "profound attachment" to their heritage and which shaped his views on the relationship between man and a woman; notwithstanding the fact that he is in Canada. They can never be reformed.
the sagacious
Los Angeles, United States
May 09, 2009 12:00 AM
330
Segacious,

>> First it was the Book that tells the believers to kill the kaffirs; I react to the threat.

What would you do with a Muslim who does not believe that the Book says such a thing (or be interpreted that way) and condemns the groups who think anywhere close in those lines?

>> Two, in Pakistan there is a civil society and why there is no protest and demonstrations against the jazia on Sikhs. The entire umma is agreed on the jazia levied on the kafirs and it is in alignment with the religious injunctions. Where are the good followers?

We did see several articles by Muslims condemning what Taliban did (and now Pakistan Army is cracking them down). The Pakistan army is mostly muslim and the armies, police etc of secular democracies who are fighting the islamist terrorists have many Muslims among them. Yes, there is confusion - they can see that what is done by Taliban is wrong and yet they also know a long tradition of Islamic theology/history from the earliest times that approved or justified Jizya. But the fact that there is an open condemnation and fears expressed by many muslims that all this is giving a bad name to Islam etc is a good sign. Its 'reform or perish' and they are getting to know clearly each passing day. A humanist would like to see the victims freed and the victimizers change (or punish the victimizers if they don’t)

Kumar
Bangalore, India
May 09, 2009 12:00 AM
329
Segacious,

>> do you still have hopes that secular democracy will change the followers.

If a religion cannot adopt itself to the best and fairest form of governance, it will have no answer to its own new generation on why a religion from God is not the best/just/fair (this question is not just about the Taliban, but to almost all Islamic nations where there is no secular democracy). Human beings are inherently free creatures. It is only ignorance that keeps some people/society from expressing that freedom. The islamist rhetoric against freedom and against secular democracy etc is a defensive knee-jerk reaction and it is an argument that cannot be sustained for long.
Kumar
Bangalore, India
May 09, 2009 12:00 AM
328
Sagacious/Thiagan,

>> The entire umma is agreed on the jazia levied on the kafirs.

Being an ignoramus, you probably have not been following the press reports. But being a pathological liar, it is possible that you read them and yet go ahead and tell your usual lies. Don't you find being a hate pracharak somewhat demeaning?
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
May 09, 2009 12:00 AM
327
Sagacious/Thiagan,

>> Another honour killing and now in Canada.

Being so preoccupied with your anti-Muslim hatemongering, you miss out on a lot of stories in the Indian press.


http://timesofindia.ind...articleshow/4502685.cms

Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
May 08, 2009 12:00 AM
326
faruki

given a chance most muslims in pakistan would chose mullah omar over you.

right -
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
May 08, 2009 12:00 AM
325
Banito/Lalit,

>> given a chance most muslims in pakistan would chose mullah.

False. Extremists did not get more than 5% to 10% of votes in any election. They have their bigots just as we have you supporting Modi and his ilk.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
May 08, 2009 12:00 AM
324
faruki

the taliban are the ultimate in hate and fundamentalism.

however 90 percent of pakistani,s are fanatic muslims, even if they dont vote for the religious parties.

this is written by all informed people.

read aatish taseer , and naipaul.

what you call a moderate is by most standards
a fanatic.

i wish you would contavt some respected journalists in dawn-

mt aredeshir cowasjee

mr irfan hussain

how about yasmin alibhai brown.

nicolas kristoff-he travells in pakistan.

stephen cohen of brookings.

dont be a frog in the well,croaking away your tired songs of muslim moderation.
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
May 08, 2009 12:00 AM
323
Banito/Lalit,

>> 90 percent of pakistani,s are fanatic .....

Probably like sanghis, VHP-ites and you!
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
May 08, 2009 12:00 AM
322
"90 percent of pakistani,s are fanatic"

The rest are super fanatic-like the Indian succulars.
Ganesan
Nj, USA
May 08, 2009 12:00 AM
321
>> The rest are super fanatic.

Stop talking about yourself.

Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
May 08, 2009 12:00 AM
320
08/05/09

"A muslim who talks against atrocities committed in the name of Islam,............."

First the other religionists do not kill for furthering the interests of their religion. As for the moderates, here is the more eloquest answer to your question.

"Recent history proves that the “so called peaceful Muslims” work as a team with their Islamic Military. They immigrate to a country touting what peaceful law abiding citizens they are, establish themselves, build mosques, increase their numbers and “bingo” terrorist acts start occurring in the host country. Do the attacks in Spain, England, France, Thailand, Bali, the Philippines, Holland, Sweden and the USA ring any bells here? All these attacks have been preceded by the establishment of moderate mosque communities which in turn became footholds from which the Islamic military could launch their terrorist attacks. The larger the percentage of Muslims that occupy a country the greater the havoc they wreak. The situation is directly proportional. Reducing the percentage of Muslims that dwell in the host country is the most effect way of stopping terrorism. Western governments must evaluate this fact very seriously if they wish to win the war against Islamofascism long term."


http://islamicterrorism...remists-work-as-a-team/
the sagacious
Los Angeles, United States
May 08, 2009 12:00 AM
319
"False. Extremists did not get more than 5% to 10% of votes in any election. They have their bigots just as we have you supporting Modi and his ilk."

Sir

Maulvi ji comparison wrong . Modi got 67 % Votes.And Modi is the next Prime Minster of India . Even Muslims of Gujrat praise him on TV for the development .Off course lot of hardliner but misguided Maulvies and Vote Bankers hate him for his tough stand against the Islamic Terror.

We understand the hurt of Sabrudins' sysmpathisers .
Khushi Ram
ambala cantt, India
May 08, 2009 12:00 AM
318
Sagacious/Thiagan,

>> As for the moderates, here is the more eloquest answer to your question...

Only a rabid idiot like you would find an 'eloquent answer' about Muslim moderates in an anti-Muslim hate website such as islamicterrorism! Your hate has destroyed your brain.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
May 08, 2009 12:00 AM
317
08/05/09

"Only a rabid idiot like you would find an 'eloquent answer' about Muslim moderates in an anti-Muslim.........."

Idiot. Start producing evidence to the contrary, instead of showering abuses on every one.
the sagacious
Los Angeles, United States
May 08, 2009 12:00 AM
316
08/05/09

Here is yet another instance to prove UK has become a dhimmi state; all becauser there is no BJP.

"A Muslim dentist refused to treat patients unless they wore traditional Islamic dress, it was alleged today.

Omer Butt, 32, ordered women to put on head scarves or he would not register them or their families at his NHS-funded clinic, it was claimed.

At least two patients were left in pain after they declined to follow his self-imposed rules, the General Dental Council heard.

It is the second time that the dentist - who is the brother of a former spokesman of the radical Islamic group al-Muhajiroun - has appeared before the council's disciplinary panel on similar allegations.

Two years ago he was reprimanded for telling an Asian mother-of-two he would not register her unless she wore the Muslim hijab.

The GDC heard how Butt believed it was his duty to stop Muslim patients committing what he believed was Al-Kaba'ir, a religious sin."


http://www.jihadwatch.o...ives/026022.php#respond


the sagacious
Los Angeles, United States
May 08, 2009 12:00 AM
315
08/05/09

Three types of jihadis. AP is from the third. Read:

"The third group is what I call the “practical jihadists,” which the previously mentioned Dr. al-Fadl belongs to. They recognize that attacking the West now is impractical and therefore support ending violent jihad in any circumstance where they are too weak to take on their enemy. This type of jihadist favors cultural jihad, infiltrating and hijacking institutions, and bringing about Sharia law and Islamization from the bottom up and inside out. In some cases, such as Israel, some members of this group may say violence is permissible, but it is always done with a cost-benefit ratio in mind.

The Muslim Brotherhood in the U.S., probably the most successful and crafty Islamist organization, is an example of the perfection of this strategy, although Jamaat ul-Fuqra deserves a mention as well as they are surely not acting to the fullest of their capabilities. These jihadists intelligently embed themselves in their targeted countries, building a vast infrastructure for financing and waging political warfare. In the case of the Muslim Brotherhood, the Western networks are sometimes used to support overseas “near enemy jihadists” like Hamas, highlighting the overlap among the three types of jihadists outlined here. It is here that these masters of political and media manipulation prosper, carefully presenting themselves as moderates and as the widely supported legitimate voices of the Muslim community.

Simply condemning the attacks of 9/11, however, does not make one a moderate. If they condemn 9/11 but don’t condemn Hamas or Hezbollah, or they condemn “terrorism” but don’t condemn suicide bombings of Israeli civilians, or if they declare they love freedom and democracy but advocate Sharia law, then we cannot embrace them as moderates. The tendency of the West to look for any sign of rationality, open-mindedness, or humanity in radicals results in a remarkably low standard for which one can be designated a “moderate.”"


http://pajamasmedia.com...e-types-of-jihadists/2/



the sagacious
Los Angeles, United States
May 08, 2009 12:00 AM
314
Sagaciou/Thiagan,

>> Start producing evidence to the contrary.

Evidence against hate mail and mud slinging?

>> yet another instance to prove UK has become a dhimmi state.

You seem to know zilch about UK. Its institutions are stronger than someone like you can imagine.

>> Three types of jihadis.

In the minds of paranoids like yourself. Get some treatment!
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
May 08, 2009 12:00 AM
313
Segacious,

>> >> A muslim who talks against atrocities committed in the name of Islam ...
>> First the other religionists do not kill for furthering the interests of their religion.

The history of humanity has been very violent/discriminatory/unjust on various anti-humanist basis like communalism, racism, regionalism, casteism etc. Killing/discriminating others to further their own interests (or of a group they identify with) has been a very common feature of human history. Ideas of human rights, secular democracy where all human beings are given rights/justice/freedom is not something that is seen throughout history and even today these concepts are struggling to get a hold in many countries and sections.

>> As for the moderates, here is the more eloquest answer to your question.
>> "Recent history proves that the “so called peaceful Muslims” work as a team with their Islamic Military. … attacks have been preceded by the establishment of moderate mosque communities which in turn became footholds from which the Islamic military could launch ...

The concept of establishing "islamic rule", if required by using armed jihad, muslim armies etc is a problematic concept, which has not been sufficiently refuted so far. The moderates should directly attack such a concept without mincing words and call for secular democracy in islamic majority nations. A tangible progress in this direction would be the proof of ones position. This is where many of the articles written by muslims against the imposition of Jizya by Taliban fall short. Most of those articles questioned the peripheral issues like “who gave the Taliban the authority” or “how did they fix the amount” etc Instead, there should be an outright support for secular democracy where such a concept like Jizya does not even figure at all. Moderate muslims should be encouraged to use public platforms, TV channels etc to articulate such views.


>> "..Reducing the percentage of Muslims that dwell in the host country is the most effect way of stopping terrorism. "

How would you do that? And this is where I differ. If you are a humanist, you love people and you want to see that all people can live together with rights, justice, freedom etc, with free articulation of ideas, discussions, mutual learnings etc. Just pushing a section of people out and just letting them do their atrocities on their victims like minorities, women, freedom loving people etc falls very short of a humanistic goal.
Kumar
Bangalore, India
May 08, 2009 12:00 AM
312
Segacious,

>> "Simply condemning the attacks of 9/11, however, does not make one a moderate. If they condemn 9/11 but don’t condemn Hamas or Hezbollah, or they condemn “terrorism” but don’t condemn suicide bombings of Israeli civilians, or if they declare they love freedom and democracy but advocate Sharia law, then we cannot embrace them as moderates"

Exhorting the muslim majority nations to embrace a free secular democracy and to condemn them (for not doing so) etc repeatedly from public platforms would a good indicator of moderateness.
Kumar
Bangalore, India
May 08, 2009 12:00 AM
311
kumar

you make great moral exhortations from the safety of a largely hindu country which you detest.

just travel to a muslim country and do your stuff. after staying there for just a few says
you will change your mind, and run back home to mom.

and stop telling moderate muslims-if any-to risk
their lives by lectureing the taliban.

in any case there are none who will follow your advice.there are none even in india.

the muslim moderates like your kind of moderates are busy lectureing laid back hindus about
tolerance.
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
May 08, 2009 12:00 AM
310
faruki

"get some treatment" thats an ugly and meaningless retort.

imagine if this was the retort one gets for comeing up with unpleasant facts.

this in fact is typical of muslim reactions to
debate.
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
May 08, 2009 12:00 AM
309
faruki

i have the opinion of several credible writers,thinkers.

i will not quote their names,except for mr ardeshir cowasjee who writes for dawn,karrachi.

his opinion is much more valid then yours.

you opinion of pakistani,s and muslims is what you wish they were,and not what they are.

if the muslim world was lergely tolerant, moderate, then it would not be in such a mess.

you have in your heart, i believe, a greater rapport with fundamentalist muslims then with liberal americans. look around and see the friends you have. no apostates, no heretics,
and no liberals of any kind.
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
May 08, 2009 12:00 AM
308
Kumar

As a moderate what is your solution ?

"Militants destroy another shrine in Peshawar
Friday, 08 May, 2009 | 02:51 PM PST |

PESHAWAR: Weeks after the Rehman Baba shrine was destroyed in Peshawar, another mausoleum in Peshawar’s Regi area was the scene of a brutal attack.

DawnNews quoted police as saying that the shrine of Sheikh Omar Baba was completely destroyed when it was attacked by militants early in the morning on Friday.

Police sources said the militants came to the area before blowing up the shrine and fled the scene when police opened fire at them, only to return again to obliterate the shrine with heavy explosives.

According to eye witnesses the militants shifted religious books and Qurans from the shrine to the nearby mosque before the explosion.

In another development a market was blown up in Adezai Area of Peshawar, destroying some 25 shops.

According to the Mattni police, targeting the market has become commonplace, and a group of long-active local militants was likely behind the incident.

No casualties have been reported so far."

Things are now becoming uglier day by day for Pakistan,Muslims and ultimately for India .
a k ghai
mumbai, India
May 08, 2009 12:00 AM
307
sagacious

i have wasted a lot of time trying to convince
faruki that islam was not a nice religion, and
muslims were quite troublesome.

so have you, khushi ram, stopperbhai, and others.

all that you will get are his retorts, insults
and abuses. he is like a frog in the well. i dont
think he reads anything which goes against his views, and i dont think he interacts with the
moderate muslims and anti islamic thinkers.

he has some nasty remarks against ex muslims
like ayan hirsi ali, tasleema nasreen. he supports the idea of a muslim personal law, and
is at any rate not against the customs of traditional islam ie the veil, the burqa, sharia.

i believe that muslims are in for a rough ride , thanks to themselves and their mindset. this will take decades to change.

it would be interesting if some followed the journey which naipaul made in 1989 in iran,pakistan,malaysia and indonesia to present a
view of islam,muslims anno 2009. two decades have passed since then.

who wants to volunteer for this exciteing and
challengeing task. perhaps some of the seculars who write in this forum.

banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
May 08, 2009 12:00 AM
306
08/05/09

"repeatedly from public platforms would a good indicator of moderateness."

No muslims will ever do that because it is unIslamic. They are already saying secular democracy is evil like adultery and you are only draedfully hallucinating. We are fighting for the survival of secular democracies from being subverted by the followers.
the sagacious
Los Angeles, United States
May 08, 2009 12:00 AM
305
08/05/09

"Moderate muslims should be encouraged to use public platforms, TV channels etc to articulate such views."

They will come with more convoluted explanations for the jazia; they will never say it should not be done. Jazia is an integral part of the religion and they can not disown it; disowning will mean all religions are equal. I have given the definition of moderate muslim in the two articles; they are moderate so long as they are powerless.
the sagacious
Los Angeles, United States
May 08, 2009 12:00 AM
304
08/05/09

"If you are a humanist, ..........."

I am a humanist but you can not ask me to sleep with the crocodile.
the sagacious
Los Angeles, United States
May 08, 2009 12:00 AM
303
08/05/09

"The history of humanity has been very violent/discriminatory/unjust........"

Do not bother about history; who has committed some 12,900 terror attacks and killing people after 9/11.
the sagacious
Los Angeles, United States
May 08, 2009 12:00 AM
302
Banito/Lalit,

>> "get some treatment" thats an ugly and meaningless retort. imagine if this was the retort one gets for comeing up with unpleasant facts.

It is made only to those who are pathologically obsessed with hate of a community to the exclusion of everything else.

Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
May 08, 2009 12:00 AM
301
Sagacious/Thiagan,

>> They are already saying secular democracy is evil like adultery.

Sufi Mohammed and the likes of him will say that. They are idiotic bigots, just like yourself.

>> I am a humanist.

A 'humanist' full of hate!

>> Do not bother about history.

Except when it favors your vile and hateful theories!
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
May 08, 2009 12:00 AM
300
" Here are two SMSs I have received from Mingora: (1) "Qeyamat ka sama apni nazron se dekh raha hoon; log curfew relaxation ka faida utha kar bhag rahe hain" (images of the Day of Judgment I am seeing with my eyes; taking advantage of the relaxation of curfew people are running away); and (2) "Collective funeral of 13 children, three women and one man offered. They were killed by morter (sic) shell. 3 other (sic) also killed, 25 injured children and women in clinic of Dr Prakash in critical (sic) no doctr (sic) and medicine available. They all belonging to Shahdara main Mingora city."

I got a call on Wednesday evening informing me that in the Bagh area of central Mingora there was no doctor available, all having left, except for Dr Gian Prakash - as you can guess by his name, a Hindu. Pakistan we say was created in the name of Islam. And this is what under the general emblem of Islam we are doing to this country and its citizens. Shouldn't we dedicate what remains of Pakistan - our Bengali brothers and sisters having gone their own way - to our common humanity? " Ayaz Amir


http://thenews.jang.com...ly_detail.asp?id=176351


Unbelievable ! Still a Hindu doctor left in Mingora !

The end of Jinnah's and Sub-Continental Muslims' dream of a seperate Islamic Country ?? ??

a k ghai
mumbai, India
May 08, 2009 12:00 AM
299
AK Ghai,

>> what is your solution ?

My solution to militancy is no different what any secular democracy in the world is trying to do today. Attack the islamist militants ideologically and militarily as required.
Kumar
Bangalore, India
May 08, 2009 12:00 AM
298
Dip

" Pakistan we say was created in the name of Islam. And this is what under the general emblem of Islam we are doing to this country and its citizens. Shouldn't we dedicate what remains of Pakistan - our Bengali brothers and sisters having gone their own way - to our common humanity? " Ayaz Amir "

Has the truth dawned on the Muslims finally that Democracy not the Religeon and but thousands years of the common Culture and History can be the only basis of COUNTRY ? Muslims foresook those very parametetrs in 1947 and even Islam couldn't keep the Pakistan intact .
a k ghai
mumbai, India
May 08, 2009 12:00 AM
297
Segacious,

>> >> "Moderate muslims should be encouraged to use public platforms, TV channels etc to articulate such views."
>> >> "repeatedly from public platforms would a good indicator of moderateness."

>> No muslims will ever do that because it is unIslamic. ... They will come with more convoluted explanations for the jazia; they will never say it should not be done..

In which case, you can use that as a criteria/reason based on which you are criticizing/condemning the people. Just don’t equate the good and the bad, solely on communal/racist considerations. That is the only point I am making.

Kumar
Bangalore, India
May 08, 2009 12:00 AM
296
Ghai Ji,

What a detailing by Mr. Ayaz Amir! That's exactly what we are talking about. I just cannot understand the mindset of general Pakistanis. A country which is over sixty years old should not have ruled under Army continually. That concludes what they really deserve.

A country created in the name of a religion raised so many questions but their leaders responded arrogantly by one answer - we are the one and wanna live like one! Now all arrogance has gone, the unanswered questions are coming back in their nightmares. Pakistanis were never able to read the writing on the wall, they are unable to read it still now and perhaps they won't operate such glaucoma!

Banito's point on leadership and mindset is dead right in this case. But when they'll change their mindset? After so many cases of surrendering and sacrificing they should call the doctor (create/address true leaders) for the surgery immediately. Otherwise, they may sacrifice more valuables, Pakistan as a whole is not out of the list.
dip
Dhaka, Bangladesh
May 07, 2009 12:00 AM
295
kumar

you are great at splitting hair.

now view dr sultan on utube talking to a muslim cleric. watch what she says. she insults the profit, islam and muslims in most violent terms.

the style of criticism,and the emphasis is the greater difference betweem islamo critics.

have you not watched utube for other such interviews-eg fareed zakaria with ayan hirsi ali.
tasleema nasreen with karan thapar.

you are really out of the loop.so is faruki.
i understand his situation. he does not enjoy seeing his religion nailed.so he avoids all islamo critical books, and if he should read one,then he claims that it does not say what the author writes.he has his own twist.

neither does he accept the commonly understood
message of the korann.
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
May 07, 2009 12:00 AM
294
faruki

as said i dont give a hang for islam and muslims.

however let the message go forth.

critics of islam,the profit, and muslims must do so with velvet gloves,takeing great care that they do not in any way upset them.

the americans are smart.

they state that islam is a great and tolerant religion. however they bomb muslims without
much ado.

i am out of the debate. let the americans take over-in talk and action.
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
May 07, 2009 12:00 AM
293
Banito/Lalit,

Glad to hear that you are ending your anti-Muslim hate war. I had more hopes of you doing it than that machine-like robot Sagacious. Sleep well!
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
May 07, 2009 12:00 AM
292
07/05/09

"Selectively collected and presented by moronic"

Idiot. It is either selectively collectd collected and presented or it is misquoted and misinterpreted. AP, you will never own the acts are the result of the Book and the conduct of the founder. You are a cheat and no one believes you.
the sagacious
Los Angeles, United States
May 07, 2009 12:00 AM
291
07/05/09

Now it is Italy. See what the followers are doing.

"Italy: 60% of mosques run by Muslim Brotherhood," from Islam in Europe, May 5:

60% of the mosques in Italy are possibly controlled either directly or indirectly by Islamic fundamentalists, according to Alexandre Del Valle, a French researcher from the University of Paris and an expert on the Arab world.

Del Valle says that more than 50%, maybe even 60% of the mosques in Italy are run by fanatical imams linked to the UCOII and the Muslim Brotherhood. He says the Italians should also be suspicious of financing initiatives by moderate Muslim states, such as Morocco.

Del Valle also warns against halal butchers. While only 5% of Muslim immigrants attend mosque prayers, many more Muslims buy halal meat from such butchers. Del Valle says that some of these butchers are run by networks funding extremist organizations, where the buyer is unaware of what he is funding."

the sagacious
Los Angeles, United States
May 07, 2009 12:00 AM
290
Sagacious/Thiagan,

>> you will never own the acts are the result of the Book.

You are a book-obsessed hate-pracharak, but such acts and facts can be produced against any community. You are just too much of an idiot to understand that.

>> Now it is Italy.

Your endlessly repeating such material from all over the world shows the degree of your psychosis. The fact that systematically trying to generate ill-feelings against an Indian minority community is highly reprehensible will never occur to your pea-sized brain. You are a detestable guttersnipe.


Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
May 07, 2009 12:00 AM
289
07/05/09

"generate ill-feelings against an Indian minority community is highly reprehensible"

The problem is the minority itself; largely uneducated, unproductive and violence prone. If they are like Jews and Parsis, why anyone should worry? The fault lies not with our perception but with their attitudes and behaviour. I am only posting facts, which are incontrovertible. It is for you to ensure the fault lines are removed. But you refuse to address the causes and issues and blame the others as hate mongers.
the sagacious
Los Angeles, United States
May 07, 2009 12:00 AM
288
" He is a recognised and highly qualified Isalmic scholar. " Maulvi ANWAR PATEL

So you admit that : 1 That you are unable to cite any Muslim theologist who has condmned Zazia .

2. The Book and Islam sanctions Zazia or not ?

If yes the what Yoginder Sikand can contribute except stating lies and lies .

If Book sanctions Zazia then you want Mulla Sufi Mohamad to disobey the eddicts ?

If Zazia is not as per Islamic tenets then please Quote the Verses .Possible ??

Maulvi ji it is very very difficult for a believer to accept the cruelity of Islam towards other Religeonists. Easiset escape route is abuse,confuse ,bring in Mausamriti,Sati,etc .And if nothing works then KUMAR like divert to abhinavies,Sanghies ,Babries ,Ram bahakats etc.



2
Khushi Ram
ambala cantt, India
May 07, 2009 12:00 AM
287
Khushi Ram/Minu,

>> So you admit that : 1 That you are unable to cite any Muslim theologist who has condmned Zazia .

Yoginder Sikand is a nationally known Muslim theologist. Why am I wasting my time with a hate-spewing idiot like you?
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
May 07, 2009 12:00 AM
286
Sagacious/Thiagan,

>> The problem is the minority itself.

Hitler said the same thing. But the real problem is someone like you who cannot find anything constructive to do in his retirement years, and instead takes up spreading hate against a minority in your own country as a full time job!
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
May 07, 2009 12:00 AM
285
Sir Gulam

Again you are avoiding the straight answere sir -does Islam sanctions Zazia and is Sufi Mohamd not following Islam ? And there is no Islamic Theologist in whole of the Islamic World who can support Yoginder Sikand ? .
Khushi Ram
ambala cantt, India
May 07, 2009 12:00 AM
284
Khushi Ram/Minu,

>> does Islam sanctions Zazia and is Sufi Mohamd not following Islam.

Pakistan is an Islamic Republic, but is there jazia in Punjab or Sindh? How many Muslim countries do you know that collect Jazia these days? Do you have to follow Manusmriti to the letter in order to be a good Hindu? And don't tell me your big lie that you are a Christian!
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
May 07, 2009 12:00 AM
283
Khushi Ram,

>> Easiset escape route is abuse,confuse ,bring in Mausamriti,Sati,etc .And if nothing works then KUMAR like divert to abhinavies,Sanghies ,Babries ,Ram bahakats etc.

I have no such need to look for escape routes etc. I can condemn all that is wrong and approve of that which is good/right. Escape routes are for people who want to defend religious extremism/terrorism of the kind which they personally identify with and sympathize with. In your case, you have a soft corner for hindu extremism/terrorism. So searching for escape routs is your problem, not mine.

Kumar
Bangalore, India
May 07, 2009 12:00 AM
282
Segacious,

>> I am only posting facts, which are incontrovertible.

You are posting facts (news items), but the conclusions you are deriving out of the facts is not correct. You are equating good, bad and ugly solely on communal lines. A muslim who talks against atrocities committed in the name of Islam, opposes injustices in islamist countries, want to support secular democracy etc should be on your side (if your own sense of right/wrong is genuine to begin with).
Kumar
Bangalore, India
May 07, 2009 12:00 AM
281
" How many Muslim countries do you know that collect Jazia these days? "

Then why Sikand when Zazia is sanctioned by the book.
Sufi Islam had said that he will implement Nizam-e- Adal .That was the agreement with the Pak Govt. And Sufi Talibani mulla is following the true Islam as ordained by the rophet(PBUH) otherwise he will be a Kafir and a lier.

Mulla Sufi also says Democracy is kufer as per Islam .That the World knows.Atleast one Mulah has the guts to say what is ordained.

Please don't spread kufer .
Khushi Ram
ambala cantt, India
May 07, 2009 12:00 AM
280
The link which opens.


http://www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?newsid=1252947


Perhaps we are barred by the Cross Currents .
Khushi Ram
ambala cantt, India
May 07, 2009 12:00 AM
279
Shain : "What are these responses? Pessimism, negativism, perpetual grievance-mongering, call for confrontation, decrying compromise, conspiracy theories, taking affront at the slightest criticism -- each one manifestly against the spirit of Islam. No matter how badly off a Muslim is, you ask him how he is and his answer will be Al-hamdo lillah (All praise be to God, meaning I am good and I thank God for that).

Is the negativism of Muslim press having an impact? It is. A Muslim today will still start with Alhamdo lillah but then immediately start chanting a litany of complaints. Sachar committee report is of course, the handiest weapon.

Ask them to feel grateful to God that you are not living in Pakistan where your mother would be asking you to pray at home and not go to mosques for fear of being blown up by suicide bombers; ask them to feel grateful that you are living in the only non-Muslim majority country in the world which allows you to organise your personal life in accordance with Muslim Personal Law; that your constitution guarantees you equal status; that no party can come to power at the Centre which has not got your votes: and you are immediately branded a Hindu agent.

This is the condition of a community whose religion exhorts it to live with an attitude of gratitude even in the direst of circumstances, to start every prayer with Al-Hamd (Praising God). God's bounties are so many and so great that we will not finish recounting them even if we spend an entire lifetime doing that.

Islam-supremacism, contempt for other religions, are our mantras. We forget that our scriptures ask us to revere equally as Prophet Mohammad all the 124,000 prophets that preceded him in all parts of the world. This is an essential requirement for the Islamic faith.

Inner spirituality has been sucked out of our religion with the onset of Wahhabism in a big way. Under US protection, Saudi Arabia is spending tens of billions of dollars for the last 35 years in spreading a desiccated, arid, desert version of Islam, devoid of all spiritual values. The Islam to which we had been introduced in the sub-continent by our saints is dead and gone. People may still visit Sufi shrines, but the inclusiveness that it entailed is no longer there.

We are now living in an era where Wahhabis have got so emboldened that they can kill us, the clean-shaven lot, for saying Takbeer (a loud affirmation of faith) in a mosque before iftar. This is what happened to Mohammad Iqbal in a village in Saharanpur (He survived but his seven-year-old daughter got killed in the stone-pelting that ensured after the nimaz-e-maghrib).

Gandhiji started this move to impose-"
Khushi Ram
ambala cantt, India
May 07, 2009 12:00 AM
278
Then why Sikand when Zazia is sanctioned by the book.
Sufi Islam had said that he will implement Nizam-e- Adal .That was the agreement>>Dukhi Ram

First, learn to spell the word. It is 'jazia'.
Kalavati
Agra, Iceland
May 07, 2009 12:00 AM
277
Banito,

>> you are great at splitting hair.

There is no splitting hair. What I am saying is a basic principle followed in all secular democracies : defend the rights of all innocent law-abiding people regardless of religion, race etc; punish the violators of the rights of others. Yasmin's article is perfectly in tune with this principle.

Kumar
Bangalore, India
May 07, 2009 12:00 AM
276
stopperbhai

i have given up criticiseing islam because its
done by so many others, and in the mainstream.

i have not changed my mind at all. i realise
the futility of doing so here, and haveing the
inevitable contest of abuse with faruki.

muslims will take decades to reform, and certainly not because we wish them to do so.

it took communism also decades to change in europe. this was easier then reforming islam.
europeans have a big streak of rationality in
them. muslims have a large streak of irrationality,as a result of centuries of
indoctrination.

can anyone change faruki mindset. he is educated
if not learned. he lives in usa, a society which
is secular and liberal
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
May 07, 2009 12:00 AM
275
Dip,

>> Hinduism indeed advocates philosophies and moral values;

And if it strives to proclaim the best of philosophy and moral values, what is wrong in an honest and articulation of it and putting it to debate along side the other ideas? Calling such a thing as "agenda of expansionism" is in my view, an immature view of religion. All ideas should be out there in the market, become dinner table discussions, and freely debated/articulated. This of course means that the better ideas will be at an advantage, which is how it should be.

>> Religions should not be placed as 1st, 2nd, 3rd analyzing its ideas and basics

Most certainly, there should be an open, free and fair discussion if all the merits and demerits of all religious or non-religious ideas, doctrines etc. If the purpose of religion is not to seek/search/desire the best of ideas, moral values etc, what else is it? Religion as an end in it self, without the lofty aim of getting to the best of truth, justice, moral values etc is actually evil. That is where religious extremism/terrorism creeps in.

>> a polite/indirect/alluring invitation by a religion aimed at conversion should also be considered as "external force". Every religion should be freely articulated and discussed without such aim.

That is like saying that a book on philosophy should be written without the goal of convincing anyone. Why not? You believe in something that you are convinced is the best of ideas, moral values etc, and why don’t you want others to know/agree?
Kumar
Bangalore, India
May 07, 2009 12:00 AM
274
"First, learn to spell the word. It is 'jazia'."

KALAVATI henji

Ok corrected and learnt .Now kindly guide us :

1 Book sanctions collection od Jazia from the infidels or not ?

2. The Book and Islam sanction Zazia or not ?
If Book sanctions Jazia then can Mulla Sufi Mohamad disobey the eddicts ?

Sufi Mohamand is right or wrong in collecting Jazia under Nizam-e Adal ?

3 Why should Sikhs be exempted to pay Jazia under Adal Nizam ?
Khushi Ram
ambala cantt, India
May 07, 2009 12:00 AM
273
Kumar,

>>And if it strives to proclaim the best of philosophy and moral values, what is wrong in an honest and articulation of it and putting it to debate along side the other ideas?

Hinduism's endeavor is certainly not to declare it to be the best in the business. And the practice should be discouraged in every religion - which you have already agreed saying, “Religion as an end in itself, without the lofty aim of getting to the best of truth, justice, moral values etc is actually evil. That is where religious extremism/terrorism creeps in.”

>>Calling such a thing as "agenda of expansionism" is in my view, an immature view of religion.

In respect of your own understanding, is not your view this time self-contradictory?

>>That is like saying that a book on philosophy should be written without the goal of convincing anyone. Why not? You believe in something that you are convinced is the best of ideas, moral values etc, and why don't you want others to know/agree?

You are so simplistic this time. Religion is not a mere book of general philosophy, it's more than that. There is no place for good-better- best, judging moral values - the accepted ones did not fall from the sky. We have accepted our values which are tested by thousand years' practice; similarly rejected values/ideas that did not bring well-beings for humanity. Considering all religions' accepted moral values/ideas, we can say that the undisputed ones have become universal now. And those well accepted fundamental values/ideas are mostly common in every prime religion. In my opinion, only the disputed ones are confined logically in respective religion's boundary i.e. not accepted universally. If a follower of a religion ignores such conflicting ideas/values, he/she should not be treated as apostate, isn't it? Structure remains same.

My point is, we have already agreed to the best of ideas/values by following our respective religions. We find it common in every religion and that's the beauty. One should not convert himself to demonstrate symbolically “I've known the best and I've accepted it.”

Every religion is like an open book. Only a fool will restrict others to go through such book.
dip
Dhaka, Bangladesh
May 07, 2009 12:00 AM
272
Dip,

>> Hinduism's endeavor is certainly not to declare it to be the best in the business. And the practice should be discouraged in every religion

Every human being should endeavor for the best of ideas, values, doctrines etc. And every religion (or defenders/promoters of religion) should strive to offer that.

>> And the practice should be discouraged in every religion

No. In fact I would say that the primary or even the sole purpose for existence of a religion should be to offer the best of truth, justice, moral values etc.

>> which you have already agreed saying, “Religion as an end in itself, without the lofty aim of getting to the best of truth, justice, moral values etc is actually evil. That is where religious extremism/terrorism creeps in.”

What I meant is that should not be a blind love or following of religion - instead each persons primary purpose/endeavor should be to arrive at and follow the best of ideas, truth, values etc and use religion as vehicle if required (that is, religion should not be an end in itself, but a vehicle). For example, if the taliban, instead of blindly following Islam (their interpretation of it), if they looked around to see what is the best of governance etc, they would not be doing the things that they are doing.

>> There is no place for good-better- best, judging moral values - the accepted ones did not fall from the sky. We have accepted our values which are tested by thousand years' practice

Most certainly, there should be a constant judging of all the religious ideas, truth, values etc and evaluation of merits and demerits, weighing with other ideas etc should be ongoing both at an individual level and in public sphere. Even if something is believed/practiced for a thousand years, it may still need correction/change/improvement or even discarding of some ideas.

>> One should not convert himself to demonstrate symbolically “I've known the best and I've accepted it.”

There should not be any restrictions either. People should freely evaluate/endeavor for the best of ideas, values, truth, doctrines etc and believe what they want to believe.

Kumar
Bangalore, India
May 07, 2009 12:00 AM
271
Kumar,

Defenders or promoters of any religion are not usually reform-minded. Here you are promoting continuous reformation, orthodox school is not supportive for that. But they enjoy the substantial authority to represent their respective religion. General feeling of a religion's core philosophy lies in -
"this is the best and straight from the God"; thus it shuts down the door of reformation automatically.

Human beings' endeavor for best ideas/values will continue in the field of science, social welfare, education and culture. Religions have definitely assisted us for those ventures. But religion also has its own limitation, why? The time factor (when it was bloomed) bears the answer. There is another aspect through which religion help us in its own way and that's spiritual aspect. In real life scenario human beings stick to fundamental values/ideas that are preached commonly by every religion. We don't generally crave for superior ways/thoughts to reach the spiritual height. Although exceptions are there.

Therefore, to achieve a certain level of spiritual height (that may bring some mental peace ), symbolic demonstration is unnecessary. A convert should make it personal. A defender or promoter of a religion may promote that person but that's not graceful.
dip
Dhaka, Bangladesh
May 07, 2009 12:00 AM
270
Dip,


>> Here you are promoting continuous reformation, orthodox school is not supportive for that.

There are religions and there are human beings looking at those religions. Good human beings always look out for the best of ideas, values, doctrines etc. If religions do not support that endeavor, they go out of relevance. Reform is for survival. Its reform or perish. This is even more true in a free society, and that is why the anti-reformists and extremists consider human freedom as the biggest enemy.

>> General feeling of a religion's core philosophy lies in - "this is the best and straight from the God"; thus it shuts down the door of reformation automatically.

But that does not stop the human beings looking at the religious to question "Is this really the best and straight from the God"? The religious claims should withstand a free flowing scrutiny, discussions, debates etc.
Kumar
Bangalore, India
May 07, 2009 12:00 AM
269
Kumar,

Right. Then we are in the same platform. I think, target audience is listening.
dip
Dhaka, Bangladesh
May 07, 2009 12:00 AM
268
Khushi Ram/Minu,

>> Mulla Sufi also says Democracy is kufer as per Islam.

He is as stupid as you are.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
May 06, 2009 12:00 AM
267
Dip,

>> Maybe Hindus are learning how to protect themselves from elimination and conversion..

There are people of all religions who try to protect their religion from "elimination and conversion". Nothing fundamentally wrong in that. But there are those who do it legitimately in a free society or illegitimately by imposing a religion based taliban like society where rights/freedom are curtailed. The way it is done legitimately in a free society is by catching up with and improving on the best of ideas/doctrines/humanist values etc, so that the religion remains relevant and a viable option for good people to follow/choose if they may.

>> What you are facing is a mild blow compared to what happening in other countries in reply of trifling issues, say going to school, singing on TVs, listening music, painting and for a clean shave. Your type of effort will just bring down the hell in those part of the world, you know.

Yes, there are very horrible places/people like you describe above. All the more reason to be cautious and stay on the right track of secular democracy.
Kumar
Bangalore, India
May 06, 2009 12:00 AM
266
Banito,

>> just answer this question. what are you complaining about

I have already told many times which groups I am criticizing and why. So why don’t you tell what you are complaining about (in what I have been saying)?

>> so instead of saying you are doing well, you have to chip in with complaints about the rss

I am surely doing quite well. What we are discussing is not about you or me personally. Hitler killing of Jews and Taliban ill-treating Sikhs is also not a personal issue, but we discuss them and condemn them. It is about issues of public importance, what kind of ideology/values etc that we should promote etc.
Kumar
Bangalore, India
May 06, 2009 12:00 AM
265
faruki

salman rushdie has some very negative views on islam.

fareed zakaria has intereviewed ayan hirsi ali, and he was very sympathatic dureing this.

salman rushdie does nor engage with other muslims.

fareed zakaria was a much favoured student of samuel huntington, and speaking about reforms in islam said, that obama has given up on its
programme to promote liberalism in the muslim
world.

aatish tasser ,who is tavleen singhs son has given his views about pakistani,s and british muslims.

i regard most news items in the international media to be negative about islam. however i could be wrong- maybe they are positive about it.

do let us know of positive news from the muslim
world.
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
May 06, 2009 12:00 AM
264
Seshadri,

>> vandalizing, you say. your jesu-sena distributing leaflets calling krishna a rapist, does it not amount to vandalism ?

Can you give a link of what you are talking about?
Kumar
Bangalore, India
May 06, 2009 12:00 AM
263
faruki

just a question.

have you read naipaul-
samuel huntington
melanie philips.
dr sultan

articles by thomas friedman
nicholas kristoff.
yasmin ali bhai brown
irfan hussain
mr cowasjee

it seems also you refute verses from the korann,
which other muslims -clerics- support.

i think you should engage with all these people, and let us know how many accept your version of islam.

you seem to have different opinions from us- switch to some others. maybe they will support your views.we know your views.

banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
May 06, 2009 12:00 AM
262
AK Ghai,

>> >> Do you think the hindutva groups killing/rioting while chanting the name of Ram are real Ram Bhakths or fake Bhakths? What is your opinion?
>> Pray the thread is Zazia ,Sufi Muhamd and unfortunate .And you have brought in Ram Bhakats ?

I agree, but look at the inability to condemn what is wrong. Does not speak well of nation/culture etc.
Kumar
Bangalore, India
May 06, 2009 12:00 AM
261
kumar

you have a grudge against hindus ,under the guise
of secularism. we hindus are secular. i find you minorities to be narrow minded,petty and obnoxious snivelling brats,.

just move over to a christian country,where the sun shines every day.
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
May 06, 2009 12:00 AM
260
Banito,

>> you have a grudge against hindus

I do criticize the extremists and law-breakers who violate the rights of others. Not just hindus, but of all religions.

>> under the guise of secularism

Secular democracy is the best thing known to us. There is no need of any guise to support it.

>> just move over to a christian country,where the sun shines every day.

It does not matter where I stay. I will continue to condemn/criticize what is wrong.
Kumar
Bangalore, India
May 06, 2009 12:00 AM
259
kumar

you will criticise denmark, norway, france-where ever you are.

you bet your boots that you will not criticise anything if you lived in pakistan or north korea.

it shows that you enjoy ctiticesing and do it to people who are tolerant.

find a more useful hobby.
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
May 06, 2009 12:00 AM
258
kumar

you will criticise denmark, norway, france-where ever you are.

you bet your boots that you will not criticise anything if you lived in pakistan or north korea.

it shows that you enjoy ctiticesing and do it to people who are tolerant.

find a more useful hobby.
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
May 06, 2009 12:00 AM
257
kumar

there ian article by yasmin alibhai-brown in the independent dated may 4th.

the title is -why i would not be a woman under
islamic law.

read the comments as well.
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
May 06, 2009 12:00 AM
256
Banito/Lalit,

>> salman rushdie has some very negative views on islam.
>> fareed zakaria has intereviewed ayan hirsi ali, and he was very sympathatic dureing this.
>> there ian article by yasmin alibhai-brown in the independent dated may 4th.

I know Rushdie, Zakaria and Yasmin's views very well. They do not express any hate or hostility towards Islam as you do. Their comments are reasonable and balanced, and their criticism is fair. Since you did not post any of their articles, nor give any direct quotations, your remarks do not carry any weight.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
May 06, 2009 12:00 AM
255
Banito/Lalit,

>> have you read naipaul, samuel huntington, melanie philips, dr sultan, articles by thomas friedman, nicholas kristoff, yasmin ali bhai brown, irfan hussain, mr cowasjee.

I have read them off and on. and know their views. None of them share your negative and hostile views. Most of them say things that I have been saying myself. As I have told you many times before, you read them but get the meaning that your prejudiced mind wants to get out of them.

>> you refute verses from the koran,
which other muslims -clerics- support.

I am not a cleric. I am against rigid and literalistic interpretation of scriptures very much like enlightened Christian and Hindu interpreters of their respective scriptures.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
May 06, 2009 12:00 AM
254
Stopperbhai,

>> I think except you not a single Muslim has ever said Salman Rusdie's as a good man.

I have posted several of his articles in this forum, and I enjoy his appearances on television. His views are liberal, very much anti-Bush and very pro-Obama. His views on fanatics and fundamentalists are very similar to mine.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
May 06, 2009 12:00 AM
253
faruki

i dont wish to debate with you. i think its pointless.

however regarding salman rushdie he has lampooned
the prophet in his book satanic verses.you can see him reading from his book before a new york audience. available some where i am sure.

i am surprised if you did not note this.

he refers to mehemmet as mamound- as close to
blasphemy as one can get.

you can surely find yasmins,s article if you wish to.

mr c,s comment on pakistani muslims is devastateing. irfan hussain has converted into an agnostic. naipaul has an awful view of pakistani,s. his book -amongst the believers-
is a strong critique of muslims in iran, pakistan, malaysia and indonesia.

however i am pleased to know that you respect these authors. try and read yasmin-and comments.
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
May 06, 2009 12:00 AM
252
faruki

dr sultan is a virulent critic of mehemmet, the koran and muslims.

her interview with a muslim cleric was a straight forward attack on all aspects of islam.

i am really surprised if you claim that you support her views.

good heavens. what next.
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
May 06, 2009 12:00 AM
251
Banito/Lalit,

>> salman rushdie he has lampooned the prophet in his book satanic verses.

Yes, but that is not all he is about. Stupid of you to think that I did not know that. He has also been critical of the Hindu right, and of the Gujarat massacre. His recent novels are fondly nostalgic of the Moghul period.

>> irfan hussain has converted into an agnostic.

Many well known Hindu and Muslim writers are agnostics. I have told you a dozen times that I do not dislike you becuase you are an agnostic. I dislike you because you are an empty-headed bigot.

>> naipaul has an awful view of pakistani,s. his book -amongst the believers- is a strong critique of muslims in iran, pakistan, malaysia and indonesia.

I can deal with diverse points of view.

>> try and read yasmin.

She is angry with the fanatic Muslims in England, but acknowledges that they are a minority.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
May 06, 2009 12:00 AM
250
Banito/Lalit,

>> dr sultan is a virulent critic of mehemmet, the koran and muslims.

She is an angry woman. Muslims should listen to her condemnation of violence.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
May 06, 2009 12:00 AM
249
06/05/09

"Idiot, read the Banerjee Report. Also read the eye witness accounts from the Tehelka tapes."

Rubbish; unfit for a reply.

the sagacious
Los Angeles, United States
May 06, 2009 12:00 AM
248
Kumar,

>>But there are those who do it legitimately in a free society or illegitimately by imposing a religion based taliban like society..


Hindus never had an expansionist outlook. Teaching of religion generally has a direct impact on respective society; its formation, behavioral pattern, level of tolerance etc. depend on a religion's suggestions and practices and Hinduism has that advantages. Caste custom, diversity driven superficiality are the main drawbacks in Hinduism.

But there is a general saying in Hinduism and I think that carries lots of senses -
“Shadharm-e Nidhon Sreo
Poro Dharma Voiaboho”
That means, it is even better to die following one's own religion than converting to other religion. The essence is integrity, homogeneity. Conversion prone religion faces self destruction and invites serious oppression. If any demerit encourages conversion, reformation is a must, what Hinduism is going through. But that also has some negativity. Reformation encourages diversity and that may end in superficiality for the people with lower wave length. In such a situation, if there is a force that plays substantial role for conversion, a section of a particular religion's follower can act violently. That's natural. They can ask the question - we're not posing any threat to your religion, why are you after us? So, the question of legitimacy/illegitimacy of spreading/imposing one's religion should be judged considering this point.

My view point is, there should not be any external force engaging in conversion. The whole issue is internal. If someone feels it internally, no force will restrain him/her from conversion.
dip
Dhaka, Bangladesh
May 06, 2009 12:00 AM
247
Sagacious/Thiagan,

Read the Banerjee Report. Also read the eye witness accounts from the Tehelka tapes. Do something about your ignorance.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
May 06, 2009 12:00 AM
246
06/05/09

How United States of Allah will look like? See for ourself.


http://www.islamreview....PUBLIC_of_America.shtml
the sagacious
Los Angeles, United States
May 06, 2009 12:00 AM
245
06/05/09

"Many want reform. But many are as backward as yourself."

Idiot. Tell them not to reveal their names. They will be killed.
the sagacious
Los Angeles, United States
May 06, 2009 12:00 AM
244
Sagacious/Thiagan,

>> How United States of Allah will look like?

Only the basest of hate pracharaks from the gutter would post such a link dripping with poison. Your using the OUTLOOK forum to spread communal hatred is most deplorable.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
May 06, 2009 12:00 AM
243
Sagacious/Thiagan,

>> Tell them not to reveal their names. They will be killed.

Their names are known except to morons like yourself.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
May 06, 2009 12:00 AM
242
sagacious

"many want reforms,and many are backward as you"

either there are many who want reforms,and few dont. or few want reforms and many dont.

in any case faruki has covered himself - both reformers and antireformers can take comfort from this statement.
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
May 06, 2009 12:00 AM
241
sagacious

its a bit overdone, but in essence the pictures could well be true.

now wait for the inevitable attack from faruki.

the picture about the praying men is from the
town centre in copenhagen.

banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
May 06, 2009 12:00 AM
240
faruki

your statement about dr sultan seems absurd.

she has criticised mehemmet, the koran and muslims. she has praised usa for giveing her
the chance to be free.she has even praised israel.

she has given real arguments for her dislikes of mehemmet and islam.

stick to facts-even if you find them disagreeable.

incidentally dr sultan and many require police protection, not so much in usa but in europe.

i believe gerry wilders moves about in an armoured car. this is bizarre.

in india it would mean that arundhati roy, sikand, and vinod mehta would need 24 hour secureity from fanatic hindus.
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
May 06, 2009 12:00 AM
239
faruki

you twist reality.

salman rushdie dislikes islam,and he has mocked the profit. his hate of hindu fanatics is besides the point.

in her article yasmin attacks muslims all over the world,when writeing about the fate of muslim women. dont try and sneak out of this.

i dislike lots of things,people and i dont care
what you think of me. name calling of people who are better read and educated then you is an infantile reaction. thats the problems most muslim critics face.

muslims dismiss all critics as apostates, heretics, islamophobes,empty headed.

even the most uneducated muslim will pass a judgement like this about salman rushdie or
yasmin. in fact several muslims have attacked her.

aatish taseer in his book has stated that many 2nd generation pakistani muslims are rabid fundamentalists. london is the capital city of jehadists,and about several dozens of them have been deported after the july 2005 bombings.

many liberal pakistani,s have refused to face the growing threat from the taliban, because they have hated indians and americans more
then them. the truth is now comeing home to root.

the muslim world has lots of people who want
a traditional form of islam, and the next step
is usually the fanatic,cruel muslim state.

dont try and walk away from reality.
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
May 06, 2009 12:00 AM
238
'"Sufi Mohamad's interpretation of Sharia is correct.

He is your blood brother! A Muslim idiot with your mentality would say that only true Hindusim is Manusmriti! '"

Anwar maulvi ji

Islam says Zazia is to be paid by the Kafirs .Sufi Mohmamd is collecting the Zazia.Please clarify if Sufi is wrong or right ? Islam and the book sanctions Zazia so how you dare call the follower of the Quran an idiot ? Sufi has no choice -either he collects Zazia and be a true Believer or he disobeys the Book and become a Kafir .

KUMAR
And what about Sikhs ? Oh you said that they have to wait till Ram Bhakats are straightened first !!!!!
Khushi Ram
ambala cantt, India
May 06, 2009 12:00 AM
237
06/05/09

"Only the basest of hate pracharaks from the gutter would post such a link dripping with poison."

This is bad. The acts are committed by the followers and all the incidents are real. They are not exaggerated. You dot bother to condemn them. But you abuse me for drawing attention of the readers and tell them it may happen in our neighbourhood; if the aggresssion of the followers are not checked. It will not happen in India because of the Sangh parivar and in Ammerica, it may be a distant possibility. However you should admit that it is a dstinct possibility in Europe; if the local continue to sleep over the danger.
the sagacious
Los Angeles, United States
May 06, 2009 12:00 AM
236
Banito/Lalit,

>> your statement about dr sultan .... she has given real arguments for her dislikes of mehemmet and islam.

You will find even more severe criticism of Hinduism in the works of Periyar and Ilaih, but one takes that in one's stride. I would never make them my heroes, as you seem to have made out of Sultan. As I said, she is a very angry woman. However Muslims should listen to her denunciation of violence.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
May 06, 2009 12:00 AM
235
Banito/Lalit,

>> salman rushdie dislikes islam.

I know your simplistic view of things and your attempts to fit everything in your primitive scheme of hate. But Rushdie cannot be pigeonholed in that schema.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
May 06, 2009 12:00 AM
234
Khushi Ram/Minu,

>> Islam says Zazia is to be paid by the Kafirs.

I posted an article by Yoginder Sikand, an Islamic scholar. Read it.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
May 06, 2009 12:00 AM
233
Sagaciou/Thiagan,

>> The acts are committed by the followers.

Selectively collected and presented by moronic hate pracharaks like yourself, whose life's dastardly mission is to use this forum to spread anti-Muslim hatred. Shame on you!
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
May 06, 2009 12:00 AM
232
faruki

cant you change your responses- something new.

more hate is being introduced by your mates,in theory and practice. barbs by us against islam and muslims are harmless and innocuous.

nonmuslims are now out of the ring. muslims are in the centre killing each other.

if you must speak then do it your own mates.
they are the ones who are killing other muslims, and especially women.

i hope you read yasmins article.

are you always angry and outraged.

not good for you.
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
May 06, 2009 12:00 AM
231
faruki

most of us modern hindus are now in a post religious era, as are european christians.

its only you muslims for whom religion is the be all and end all of your lives.

i dont care 2 cents for critics of hinduism.
i dont care 2 cents for the critics of christianity. no sensible dane is bothered either.

so if i bring dr sultan in my comments dont use
periar, illhaia to counter my arguments. i dont know for these demented people. would never invite them to my club.
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
May 06, 2009 12:00 AM
230
Banito,

>> there ian article by yasmin alibhai-brown in the independent dated may 4th. the title is -why i would not be a woman under islamic law.

Just finished reading the article (it is titled 'Who'd be female under Islamic law?'). I think it is a well written article. May her tribe increase. Of course, the islamist radicals will call her a non-scholar in Islam who knows nothing about Islam and hence nothing she says counts for anything. That’s a standard technique they used to all critics.
But there is nothing in that article that can be termed as communal or racist or hate-speech. She condemned the wrongs committed by the beliefs/practices of Islam and she did a commendable job of that.

Kumar
Bangalore, India
May 06, 2009 12:00 AM
229
Banito/Lalit,

>> cant you change your responses.

The same hate mantra, the same responses!

>> most of us modern hindus are now in a post religious era.

The hate war that you, Seshadri and Sagacious are involved in shows that you are stuck in the worst phase of the religious era. I do not preach religion, I fight hate.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
May 06, 2009 12:00 AM
228
"I posted an article by Yoginder Sikand, an Islamic scholar. Read it."


Maulvi ANWAR PATEL and KUMAR

Now a hindu Kafir will tell us that Zazia is not payable by the Kafirs.Please tell us whether the BOOK,Hadeed and Nizame Adal say so ! And quote the verse which says Zazia not be levied.

And also please confirm if Islamic Nations were wrong in collecting Zazia from the Kafirs for all the centuroies together .

Yoginder is not the Islamic scholar .
Khushi Ram
ambala cantt, India
May 06, 2009 12:00 AM
227
faruki

i dont think there is any need for me to attack islam or muslims in this forum, especially when
you are the only muslim here.

you can read the views of critics in the mainstream media, and these are the people you should debate with.

we others are just small fry. at worst we can offend you, and frankly its not worth it.

ultimately the fate of islam and muslims is in your hands, and the conflicts will be resolved
in muslim countries. we will just be the by standers. no need for us to interfere. if we do,
then we will get no thanks from any one and just
abuse by people like you.

quita non movere
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
May 06, 2009 12:00 AM
226
kumar

if yasmin criticises muslims then thats jusy free speech.

if i do the same,then it is hate speech.

thats why in future i will let yasmin and others do the writeing.
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
May 06, 2009 12:00 AM
225
Khushi Ram/Minu,

>> Now a hindu Kafir will tell us that Zazia is not payable by the Kafirs.

Look at the hate dripping out of each sentence you write! Get some psychiatric help. He is a recognised and highly qualified Isalmic scholar.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
May 06, 2009 12:00 AM
224
Dip,

>> Hindus never had an expansionist outlook.

I think that is a negative way of looking at religion itself. Religion includes in it, various aspects like religious doctrines, philosophy, moral values etc. A religion should be instrumental in producing the best of ideas (or catch up to the best, where it is lagging behind). The best of ideas so produced should be freely articulated, discussed and debated.

>> My view point is, there should not be any external force engaging in conversion. The whole issue is internal. If someone feels it internally, no force will restrain him/her from conversion.

If by "external force", you mean forced conversion, I agree with your statement. Otherwise, every religion should be freely articulated and discussed in the public sphere.

Kumar
Bangalore, India
May 06, 2009 12:00 AM
223
Banito/Lalit,

>> you can read the views of critics in the mainstream media.

I myself am a critic, but that is quite apart from my fight with empty-headed hate merchants like you. You are no critic. You are just a mindless lambaster.

>> if yasmin criticises muslims then thats jusy free speech. if i do the same,then it is hate speech.

Your not knowing the difference is exactly what I am talking about.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
May 06, 2009 12:00 AM
222
Banito,

>> if yasmin criticises muslims then thats jusy free speech.
>> if i do the same,then it is hate speech

I think you are missing the point. One can criticize Islamic beliefs, practices, doctrines etc all one wants. One can criticize violent behavior of people (in the name of religion etc) all one wants. That is what Yasmin did and all should support her right to do that. That is not just her right - she is doing a great service to humanity/society. No where did she imply anything insulting or inciting towards all Muslims. She wrote "I defend Muslims persecuted by their enemies and their own kith and kin". It becomes hate-speech if something is said insulting or inciting to "muslims" in general, as that would violate the rights/dignity of many innocent good human beings (many whom who themselves condemn the evil deeds in the name of Islam). Even a son of Osama Bin laden is a free human being whose rights have to be respected if he disapproves/condemns his fathers views/deeds.

Kumar
Bangalore, India
May 06, 2009 12:00 AM
221
Kumar,

>> I think that is a negative way of looking at religion itself. Religion includes in it, various aspects like religious doctrines, philosophy, moral values etc. A religion should be instrumental in producing the best of ideas (or catch up to the best, where it is lagging behind). The best of ideas so produced should be freely articulated, discussed and debated.


What the positive outlook has done to this world? Hinduism indeed advocates philosophies and moral values; on the other hand it does not have any such agenda that promotes expansionism legitimately or inhumanly. And it is inclusive, not a concise and directional one for its followers. Hindus generally do not face any stringency performing their religious/daily duties following their religion. Religions should not be placed as 1st, 2nd, 3rd analyzing its ideas and basics. It's the chronology of time (when a religion is bloomed) that should be taken into account to consider all religions' right balance, smartness of ideas and forwardness.

Make a group of people that includes world's best teachers, scientists, humanists, Sufis, Sadhus, barristers, novelists, poets, historians, economists…- write a holy book and give a good name. Having some definite edge, I bet the invented one (religion) will compete with other religions very easily. Break the shackle, if you can.

>>If by "external force", you mean forced conversion, I agree with your statement. Otherwise, every religion should be freely articulated and discussed in the public sphere.


BTW, a polite/indirect/alluring invitation by a religion aimed at conversion should also be considered as "external force". Every religion should be freely articulated and discussed without such aim.

dip
Dhaka, Bangladesh
May 05, 2009 12:00 AM
220
khushi ram

some muslim clerics in india may come up with
explanations and excuses. it refers mostly to the amount of jizia to be paid,and when.

how kind and generous.

that will not solve the problems of the sikhs.
i am sure of it. like the kashmiri pandits they will remain in camps. no teesta seetalwad, no arundhati roy, no vinod mehta will speak for them.

my suggestion would be for the indian govt to offer them asylum.

india has given permission to millions of bangladeshis. why not to our sikh kith and kin.

ultimately only a strong govt under some one like modi can protect india, and its people in and out of the country.
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
May 05, 2009 12:00 AM
219
Sagacious/Thiagan,

>>>> "No one is against a muslim who is a good human being, supporting democratic polity."
>> Where is that man?

What a dope! You are too stupid even to be a hate pracharak.

>> name the place without intolerant muslims.

What a dope! You are too stupid even to be a hate pracharak.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
May 05, 2009 12:00 AM
218
faruki

who speaks for islam.

whom can one hold morally responsible.

there are none. if there are,then they are shadowy figures who dwell in your imagination.

according to you the head clergy in egypt, saudi
arabia, iran do not speak for islam.

a little sneaky weasel like you has that honour.
your views are quoted world wide,and is taken notice of by all true moslems.
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
May 05, 2009 12:00 AM
217
Dip

>> 'Just as a human is not possible without its limbs, so is the establishment of a caste less society not conceivable' -that might be the thought of caste system in Hinduism. It's reforming - don't be so happy.

Mr. Banito has said that some people's forefathers choosing Islam has something to with 'loyalty'. I corrected him saying that (in a free society) the main reason people choose a religion is if they find something better/appealing about beliefs/practices of that religion. The caste system as believed/practiced (particularly by the forefathers) is certainly not the best of class. Increasingly, in the information age, nothing short of the best will do, and so all religions (and non-religious ideologies) will have to catch up with the best of class ideas.
Kumar
Bangalore, India
May 05, 2009 12:00 AM
216
Banito/Lalit,

>> you have obviously much to criticise us hindus,americans,westerners.

Do I criticize Hindus, or do I answer your and other hate pracharaks' relentless assault on Muslims and Islam by pointing out that you are not perfect either? Do you have the sense to know the difference? Probably not! I do however criticize the RSS/VHP/BJP shenanigans, but that is politics, and fair game.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
May 05, 2009 12:00 AM
215
Banito/Lalit,

>> some muslim clerics in india may come up with
explanations and excuses. it refers mostly to the amount of jizia to be paid,and when. how kind and generous. that will not solve the problems of the sikhs.

Idiot, how will their staying silent help? How does your constantly playing your foul mouth help?
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
May 05, 2009 12:00 AM
214
>> "a group of prominent Indian Muslim leaders, including numerous notable Sunni ulema, pointed out that ‘The imposition of the so-called jizya is nothing more than extortion by an armed and lawless gang, which does not constitute a sovereign government or state or even an organ thereof.’ ... ‘As regards the huge amounts in millions reported to be demanded, these are arbitrary and exorbitant’ …. ‘We regard this as an act of injustice incompatible with the letter and spirit of Islam .."

Is the implication that jizya is ok, if extracted by a "sovereign government or state" or if the calculation of Jizya is more accurate? In any case, the "notable Sunni ulema" should specify what should be the punishment to be given to Taliban for the injustice? They should also come out clean and tell if they agree that secular democracy is what should be followed by all the muslim majority nations. If not, the condemnation is hardly anything more than lip-service, which the Taliban will simply smile and ignore.
Kumar
Bangalore, India
May 05, 2009 12:00 AM
213
faruki

the bjp has a large support amongst hindus.
hindutwa is like religion, a way of life for us.
your attacks against the sangh parivar is an attack on many of us.

however it does not bother me too much.

for us islam,mehemmet is a summation of muslims.
you resent criticism against islam, and you hate
criticism against muslims. in this way you demand total protection from all criticism.

the united nations has declared that religion can be criticised, and freedom of speech is inviolable.we find that muslims can not accept this.

europeans are now putting their foot down. harsh
punishments will be used against muslims in future, turkey will be barred from the eu.

both norway and denmark have govts hostile to muslims.

i can assure you that you would have a hard time
in either of these countries.

many danes,norwegians have views similar to mine.
just check it out- you are liveing with delusions.

i understand that pakistani,s entering usa,west
meet great suspicion. how do they react.
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
May 05, 2009 12:00 AM
212
A_P:>>"I do however criticize the RSS/VHP/BJP shenanigans, but that is politics, and fair game".

the cat is out of the bag. you are just anthony patel, politicing for sonia-raj, aligning with the conq/conv forces and votebanks, that is all..
v.seshadri
chennai, india
May 05, 2009 12:00 AM
211
Seshadri,

>>>> "I do however criticize the RSS/VHP/BJP shenanigans, but that is politics, and fair game".
>> the cat is out of the bag. you are just anthony patel.

The cat is out of the bag! You are just a loony with no logic and no sense!
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
May 05, 2009 12:00 AM
210
Stopperbhai,

>> Seshadri has said nothing wrong.

How would a dunce like you know?
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
May 05, 2009 12:00 AM
209
05/05/09

"What a dope! You are too stupid even to be a hate pracharak."

"What a dope! You are too stupid even to be a hate pracharak."

The simpler answer would have been to show the man and the place. You resort to abuse because there is neither the man nor the place. Ha!Ha!!Ha!!!


the sagacious
Los Angeles, United States
May 05, 2009 12:00 AM
208
05/05/09

Kumar. Read this article and see the photos. The followers do not deserfve secularism.

"This country is like a heaven on earth.

I was born In Rawalpindi, now in Pakistan.

We were forced to leave our ancestral land because we were Hindus.

We fled to India in 1947, and in 1971 I Immigrated to USA.

There are millions like me in USA who have come from different countries. What is the status of my Hindu brothers and sisters left behind in Pakistan and Bangla Desh? To quote a Hindu American Foundation report endorsed by several US congressmen and Senators, in 1947 during partition, Hindus in Pakistan were about 25% of population in Pakistan. Today, in about 60 years, that population is reduced to less than 1.6%.

What happened to the millions of Hindus? Mostly they were forced to convert, and many fled the country. The report quotes about the alarming trend of Hindu girls being kidnapped, raped and held in Madrassas and forcibly converted. Pakistan's Government sanctions discrimination through blasphemy laws. Just yesterday, areas captured by Taliban forced followers of the Sikh religion to vacate their homes and businesses for not paying the oppressive Jizya tax."


http://atlasshrugs2000....-rights-rally.html#more



the sagacious
Los Angeles, United States
May 05, 2009 12:00 AM
207
05/05/09

"If not, the condemnation is hardly anything more than lip-service, which the Taliban will simply smile and ignore."

Kumar. The obvious reason is it is plain ransom from being kidnapped and killed. Here is the other reason, as admitted by their own leader. Now they want to convert the entire India, with the help of the secular fanatics and the Indian police are not allowing the Indian muslims to do Allah's work. Do you still believe that these crazies can coexist with any civilised world.

""Jamhooria Islamia", a monthly Baluchi magazine published from Panj-gar, published an interview with Maulana Nawabzadaa Nabiullah Khan, a confidant of and adviser to the Amir of leading Pakistani Islamic party, Jamaat-e-Islami, Maulana Qazi Ahmed, which was conducted by Jalil Amir. The following constitutes are excerpts from that conversation which reveals the fundamentalist ideology and designs of the organisation and its leader.

The following are excerpts:

NON MUSLIMS IN MUSLIM COUNTRIES MUST PAY JIZYA

Q: That brings us to the question of minorities. Will they have to pay Jizya tax?

A: Yes. They have to pay the tax. As explained by Qazi Ahmed , the idea of Jizya is not protection money. But it is a monetary force on the non-Muslim to convert to Islam. Once the Jamaat comes to power, the minorities will be induced (forced) to become Muslims either by monetary or psychological factors.

ALL INDIAN HINDUS WILL BE CONVERTED INTO ISLAM

JI is already equating India with Hindus so that the Hindus of Pakistan will be forced to become Muslims. This was a very successful strategy during the Babri Masjid riots. JI was actively involved in destroying the Hindu temples in Punjab and Sindh. We ordered the destruction of the Hindu family property too. But our main aim was to destroy the Hindu temples. We wrote in the JI pamphlets that destroying each pagan temple makes a Muslim move closer to the heaven of Allah. We used the Hadiths in all the pamphlets. Babar destroyed the Ram temple in Ayodhya because he was a true believer. The same way, every Muslim should take it upon himself to destroy the Hindu temples in Pakistan. O! ur idea was to encourage the Muslims of India also to destroy the Hindu temples in India. But this was not met with much success since the Hindu police in India started attacking the Muslims who were doing Allah's duty."


the sagacious
Los Angeles, United States
May 05, 2009 12:00 AM
206
05/05/09

Kumar. Now it is Germany, which is being dhimmified by the muslim youth. They tend to be violent, uneducated and crime prone. They are unfit to be a part of the civilised world. Read:

"Another participant in the show reported the following experience. A teacher wrote to a local newspaper reporting that one of her pupils, a 14-year-old girl, was chained to her bed by her Muslim father to prevent her from leaving the house. The newspaper refused to publish the letter. The teacher was told that posting the letter would endanger her life.

This kind of letter reminds me of the numerous letters I myself sent out to German newspapers: to the Neue Westfälische and Westfalen Blatt in Bielefeld, Germany, in which I reported women being beaten and girls are forced by their Muslim parents to marry old men whom the girls have never met. The papers also refused to publish my letters.

Also in Bielefeld, in Stieghorst, a district that is predominantly inhabited by Turks, Muslim boys do not allow their sisters to enter the “Freizentrum” (recreation center). And German boys are not allowed to enter the center either.

According to various studies, more than 70% of young Muslims in Germany drop school before reaching the 10th grade. Later many of them join the “army of jobless” and live on “Harz-Vier,” the welfare system.

Both mosques and affiliated centers fill the brains of young male Muslims with hatred toward the German society and blame it on their misery. These indoctrination centers, and the fact that schools and state authorities shy off confrontation with young Muslims, have simply emboldened these youth and encourage them to stay defiant.

Mustafa, a young Turk told me, “Teachers and the police are afraid of me."


http://www.familysecuri.../id.3146/pub_detail.asp

the sagacious
Los Angeles, United States
May 05, 2009 12:00 AM
205
Sagacious/Thiagan,

>> The simpler answer would have been to show the man and the place.

What a dope! You are too stupid even to be a hate pracharak.

>> The followers do not deserve secularism.

This from a sworn enemy of secularism! You are truly an idiot.

>> interview with Maulana Nawabzadaa Nabiullah Khan...

You would find such idiots in the RSS and VHP too. They should be condemned and ridiculed.

>> Now it is Germany, which is being dhimmified by the muslim youth.

You go to Pakistan, Germany, England, Australia and God knows where else to maintain your hate journal! We all know that Muslims from Somalia, Morcco, NWFP etc are behind times and may appear to many of us to be barbarians. How many times do you have to drum that point home? You have become extremely repetitious and boring. Moreover you will find similar stories in India if you look for them. How come you are such a moron?
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
May 05, 2009 12:00 AM
204
' Sardars are wrong that they want some mercy .Even if Sufi mohamd wishes he can't show mercy because he is not permitted." KR

Lying is your stock in trade, but even an idiot like you should know that about 50 Muslim organizations, religious as well as political, have condemned the Jazia on Sikhs. Even the Kashmiri separatist leader Gilani has condemned it." Anwar

Bhai jan

What thousands organisations say does not help the Sardars .

The truth is that Sufi Islam can't over Rule Hadeed ,Sharia and Adal and all say Zazia is payable.ISLAM SAYS JAJIA PAYABLE so Sardars have to pay it .What Sufi Mohamad can do here ? He is not above Sharia .In 1947 sardars were supposed to move to India like Muslims were to move to Pakistan .Sardars are occupying Muslims' lands,houses ,partaking the resources of the Sawati Muslims .They are supposed to be in India not in Sawat.

>> Radical cleric Sufi Muhammad .... said there is no room for democracy in Islam.'KR

"Only morons like you and Sagacious would think that such stupid clerics speak for Islam." Anwar Maulvi

Mulla Sufi is the real Muslim . He rules Sawat as per Islam . Sufi is asking as ordained by Islam Jajia from Sardars in Sawat .

""Democracy un-Islamic: Sufi Muhammad in Swat

Islamabad: Radical cleric Sufi Muhammad, who played a crucial role in enforcing Islamic law in Pakistan’s restive northwestern Swat valley, on Sunday said there is no room for democracy in Islam and that no one could appeal against the verdict of Sharia courts."

Maulvi Anwar you please brush up your knowlege on your religeon.Don't spread kuffer !
Khushi Ram
ambala cantt, India
May 05, 2009 12:00 AM
203
Segacious,

>> Read this article and see the photos. The followers do not deserfve secularism

The protestors are condemning Pakistan/Taliban and other Islamist societies for lack of secularism, freedom, justice etc. None of the protestors are suggesting that secularism should be given up or that US should become like Pakistan. If you want to become like what Taliban is, you lose the authority to condemn them. You can’t have it both ways. I prefer to stay on the side of what is right and condemn what is wrong (rather than join the club of wrong doers)
Kumar
Bangalore, India
May 05, 2009 12:00 AM
202
Khushi Ram/Minu,

>> What thousands organisations say does not help the Sardars . The truth is that Sufi Islam can't over Rule Hadeed ,Sharia and Adal and all say Zazia is payable.

Read Yoginder Sikand's article that I posted earlier. The Sufi is not empowered by Hadid or Sharia, but by sheer political power and power of the gun. Such fanatics use the most extreme interpretation of injunctions to suit their political goals. Sanghis like you and zionists love to hold up such extreme positions as being true Islam for their own nefarious purposes.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
May 05, 2009 12:00 AM
201
"Read Yoginder Sikand's article that I posted earlier.Sanghis like you and zionists love to hold up such extreme positions as being true Islam for their own--"

Are you mad or what ? We should learn from a non-believer heretic Yoginer Sikand what saharia ,Islam or Hadeeth or Adal say and disregard what an authority on Islam the well learned Sufi sahib says ???!!!!!

The point is simple.Sawat is to be ruled under Nizam e Adal as approved by the Muslims of Pakistan .alongwith flogging,pardah,women only allowed to go for Haj and not otherwise out of the homes etc Adal also imposes that non muslim sshould pay Zazia and all the idols,mazars ,tombs and temples to be broken .

Gulam bhai- Sufi mullah is not wrong . He is simply but rightly interpreting the Islamic laws and implementing themm as they should be .You are simply trying to mislead us that no Zazia is sanctioned by Islam .
Khushi Ram
ambala cantt, India
May 05, 2009 12:00 AM
200
"He also said democracy is ‘kufar’ (infidelity) and backing democratic forces is useless. “Even I do not offer prayers under pro-democracy people,” the cleric said.
Former Jamaat-e-Islami chief Qazi Hussain Ahmad and Jamiat Ulema-e-Islam leader Fazlur Rehman are searching for Sharia in democracy, he claimed.

Muhammad said women are not allowed to go out of their homes except to perform Haj or the pilgrimage to Mecca and there is no need to seek a wife’s permission for jehad or holy war. He was also of the opinion that there is no Islamic Sharia system in Saudi Arabia or Iran."


Sufi Mohamad's interpretation of Sharia is correct. If any body can contradict with the proper references from the Book please illuminate - 'you are morons /Sanghies is not the answere'.

Khushi Ram
ambala cantt, India
May 05, 2009 12:00 AM
199
Kushi Ram,

>> Sufi Mohamad's interpretation of Sharia is correct. If any body can contradict with the proper references from the Book please illuminate

Let me ask one more similar question. The people who chant the name of Ram while rioting/killing/hate-speeches etc - are they real Ram Bhakths or fake Bhakths?
Kumar
Bangalore, India
May 05, 2009 12:00 AM
198
faruki

instead of abuseing us, muslims like you should have an open debate,in the safety of usa.

there should be muslims of all kinds, clerics,
intellectuals, and a anchor,who can ensure a fair debate.there should be a spectators gallery
behind a bulett proof glass barrier.

muslims seem very devided about islam. we nonmuslims accept the view of the clerics,who
seem to be ruleing the roost.

this happens to be true of large states as well-iran,saudi arabia, sudan.

this debate between you and your opponents is a waste of time.

i have taken to gardening,and i am on to writeing a series of articles,which are meant
for family and friends.
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
May 05, 2009 12:00 AM
197
"Let me ask one more similar question. The people who chant the name of Ram while rioting/killing/hate-speeches etc - are they real Ram Bhakths or fake Bhakths?"

KUMAR


Why ask me ? I am a Christian.

We are talking of Sardars and their mistakes to stay in Pakistan after the partition.Even our family magrated rather flee with the only clothes on our body.The few jewelley we had was looted in name of Islam an dour vallets snatched too along with wollens like blankets .I vivdly remember those days.It was RSS who clothed us,fed us ,sheltered us and gave money /tickets to reach Ambala .Your raskal Gandhi bhakats were no where seen .

And maulvi ji what Hindus have to do with the implemetaion of Zazia on sardars ? You are a real Hindu hater .
Khushi Ram
ambala cantt, India
May 05, 2009 12:00 AM
196
05/05/09

"What a dope! You are too stupid even to be a hate pracharak."

No moderate muslim or the state. The idiot can not find any.

"This from a sworn enemy of secularism! You are truly an idiot."

I am against secularism which succumbs to Islamic aggression and that is not idiocy but self protection.

"You would find such idiots in the RSS and VHP too. They should be condemned and ridiculed."

The ritual of condemning having been done, you can start assisting the jihadis to committ more terror attacks. That is taaquia.

"You go to Pakistan, Germany, England, Australia and God knows where else to maintain your hate journal."

The violence and barbarism of the followers are world wide; I am giving a global overview to prove that they are undesirables.





the sagacious
Los Angeles, United States
May 05, 2009 12:00 AM
195
kumar

please answer the question.

dont ignore it by raising another question.

you are liveing in a peaceful state, and i am certain you are not discriminated against. yet you seem full of hate for hindus, behind your
feigned idealism.

everytime you write i feel your inherent grudge against hindus.
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
May 05, 2009 12:00 AM
194
Banito,

You must have seen an all blue Autumn sky.
dip
Dhaka, Bangladesh
May 05, 2009 12:00 AM
193
Kumar

You have no moral scruples to sympathise with the unfortunate Sardars in Sawat.On the contrary you are justifying the torture ,destruction of their homes and killing by citing some crim es of some Ram Bhakats ?
Khushi Ram
ambala cantt, India
May 05, 2009 12:00 AM
192
05/05/09

"We all know that Muslims from Somalia, Morcco, NWFP etc are behind times and may appear to many of us to be barbarians."

Name one muslim country, which is in current 21st century; practising democracy, secularism, human rights; traeting others with equity and justice; deveoping industry and agriculture; who settle the differences without resort to violence; who are self sustaining and do not depend on the foriegn aid. There is no country and the reason is TROP. You idiot, you can neither deny or dispute.
the sagacious
Los Angeles, United States
May 05, 2009 12:00 AM
191
05/05/09

"who chant the name of Ram while rioting/killing/hate-speeches etc - are they real Ram ......."

Rubbish. They firebomb 60 kar sevaks and what do you expect the Hindu majority to do? They make entire Hindu population disappear in Pakistan? You expect them to sit and wait for the law to take its course. The Sikhs did that in 1984; Tytler and Sajjan Kumar get elected as MPs and become ministers. Secularism, as it is today, is anti majority.
the sagacious
Los Angeles, United States
May 05, 2009 12:00 AM
190
sagaciou,khushi ram etc

there is no point in harassing faruki with lurid
stories about muslims all over the world.

he is convinced that muslims by and large are like the rest of humanity.

after all his family,friends are all muslims,
and he assumes that his community by and large
are like them.

he does not want to look at the ugly side of islam, and there is no point in rubbing this in.

debateing islam,muslims with faruki and kumar
is a complete bore.

i can say on a spiteful note that they seem totally unimpressed by what the mainstream
western media has to say about islam, muslims,and muslim countries.

who wants to face ugly reality.
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
May 05, 2009 12:00 AM
189
K_R:>>"citing some crimes of some Ram Bhakats?"

Those who really have Ram in heart become Siva = Allah = Christ, themselves, in entunement with the all-goodness all-merciful absolute. They cant do any harm to anyone. It is only the church-paid ravans [look at their faces, eyes] who pretend as ram-bhakts, with tilaks etc. [like sonia herself], who do dirty acts to give hinduism a bad name, for the Kumar-types to talk about!


v.seshadri
chennai, india
May 05, 2009 12:00 AM
188
faruki

for the sake of fairness why dont you interact with some others- westerners,muslims,jews,hindoos
budhists on some other blog.

there are good blogs in dawn.

a lot of people are wasteing their time, digging
ugly reports about islam and muslims. it will
give them a break too.

why does islam,muslims take up so much space.
its futile .

indians should be debateing population control,
use of wind mills, solar energy. provideing clean
water,sanitation.

this is all ignored because the hottest subject is secularism.

humanism would be a better ideal. equality of women in jobs, at home and outside.makeing life
easier for the disabled, the old.

certainly the pluralist society has brought a lot of problems, and i cant see any gains.

it has devided the country, and given crooked
politicians room to destroy the country, steal and cheat, always chanting the mantra of secularism.any thug,any criminal can claim
virtue, and the most honest bjp guy like arun shourie will always be branded as a communalist.

the desi secularist is cut off from the intellectual elite of the west. people like
bidwai, sikand, punyani etc are obtuse, with
no intellectual curiousity,always singing yesterdays songs, and reading yesterdays news.
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
May 05, 2009 12:00 AM
187
"there is no point in harassing faruki "

I don't harass maulvi and mini maulvi Kumar .Whole of our family had suffered immence torture ,humilations, looting and life threatening situations in 1947.I am realy surprised what made sardars and hindus plus Christians to stay on in an Islamic country .The partition was done to ensure Muslims go to Paksiatn and others come to India.Now they are caught up in talibani Islamic quagmire in Sawat.

What is happening in the Sub-Continent is the result of the follies of Nehru and Gandhi. Our generations will continue to pay.
Khushi Ram
ambala cantt, India
May 05, 2009 12:00 AM
186
Khushi Ram,

>> On the contrary you are justifying the torture ,destruction of their homes and killing by citing some crim es of some Ram Bhakats ?

I am not justifying anything. I asked you a question. Do you think the hindutva groups killing/rioting while chanting the name of Ram are real Ram Bhakths or fake Bhakths? What is your opinion? I have already given my opinion on the question you asked (in my response to Banito).
Kumar
Bangalore, India
May 05, 2009 12:00 AM
185
Banito,

>> please answer the question. dont ignore it by raising another question..

Every religion renders itself to various kinds of interpretations, uses and abuses. What matters really is the actual beliefs/practices of a person. If there is a muslim who only bothers about say the five pillars of Islam and keeps religion as a private faith, I am bound to respect his rights. On the other hand if he picks up a verse or a hadith and tells that he wants to kill and infidel, all kinds of legal/military options are open against him. Coming to the question asked by Kushi Ram, my own view is that while other religions have stemmed the negative interpretations and put forward a humanist interpretation religion and accepted the secular democracy, Islam is lagging behind. There is a lot of hard work to be done to come up with a Islam that is compatible with secular democracy and to percolate that view as the mainstream common view.
Kumar
Bangalore, India
May 05, 2009 12:00 AM
184
khushi ram

i agree with your sentiments.

however people like us can not change the minds of bigoted muslims. they think they are seculars,
which means being pro muslim and anti bjp.

instead of secularism the bjp should take up the cause of humanism, and reform society ending
discrimination against the really victims of
indian society.

the victims are the poor, women,widows,disabled
people,the old, orphans.they are the sick who can not get treatment, the hungry who dont get enough food, and the thirsty who do not have clean water to drink.

instead of focusing on the victims of all religions,we have created a community of 160
million muslims who seem very wrongly to be the worst off.

many amongst them work abroad especially in arab countries, they are to be found in trade,and skilled jobs. their main problem is their mindset, and no pampering can solve this problem.

let the state reset its objectives of justice
and equity. help for all who deserve it, irrespictive of caste, creed and religion.

the secularists are morally bankrupt, and this can be seen as its main components-

mayawati, mulayam singh,amar singh,laloo,
the congress.

most of these people are corrupt,thieves and liers.

how can rahul talk about helping the poor,when his mother, himself and priyanka, live in lutyens
new delhi, where each of their houses is worth
100 crore rupees if not more. they travel by
plane, by govt owned cars. they have dozens of servants at their beck and call.

these people are hypocritical and dishonest.

in contrast modi lives alone,with one cook and
one servant. there are no hangers on, or crowds.

he serves the poor. he has brought water,electricity to all the poor. he has brought
in lots of industry, and development is his mantra.

that is serveing the poor-

banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
May 05, 2009 12:00 AM
183
Banito,

>> the desi secularist is cut off from the intellectual elite of the west

Why dont you post a few articles from western elite who you think agree with your views.
Kumar
Bangalore, India
May 05, 2009 12:00 AM
182
05/05/09

"There is a lot of hard work to be done to come up with a Islam that is compatible with secular democracy and to percolate that view as the mainstream common view."

Have you checked whether they are ready for the reforms or whether they want to change others to their style? I have again and again told you only Khemal ensured that Islam remained within the doors of house in Turkey; no one has attempted during the last 1400 years. We consider the work to be waste of time; the better solution will be to confine the followers in one part of the world and ensure that they do not stray.


the sagacious
Los Angeles, United States
May 05, 2009 12:00 AM
181
kumar

you can read new york times, newsweek usa, the telegraph, independent from england.

aatish taseers has written a book about pakistani
and british pakistanis.

naipaul has written -amongst the believers-

fareed zakaria, salman rushdie express their views from time to time. there are exmuslims like dr sultan, ayan hirsi ali, tasleema nasreen.

robert spencér, melanie philips, and others write about islam,muslims.

there are critics in france, holland, denmark.
however these are not in english.there are articles in daily times, dawn from pakistan.
the muslim writers seem far more liberal,and well read then many of the desi journalists.

i have corresponded with ardeshir cowasjee, irfan
hussain, ayaz amir . stephen cohen in brookings usa.

you have to do your own reading.

frankly knowing faruki i think we should put a lid on the debate about islam. its an absolute waste of time.

knowing you ,i think its pointless debateing with you.

i feel minorities resent the space hinduism occupies in india. thats too bad.

it would be better for you to live in a christian country,and for faruki to live in a muslim country.it would be better for us as well.

banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
May 05, 2009 12:00 AM
180
Banito,

>> you can read new york times, newsweek usa, the telegraph, independent from england

Why don’t you post specific links to articles which you think that agree with you? You seem to be misunderstanding a criticism of Islam or a criticism of specific people for specific beliefs/behavior etc as communalism. I am all for criticism of Islam. I am all for criticism of misbehavior/vandalism, religious extremism etc. What I am against is a deliberate injustice to any innocent solely on communal/racist considerations.

>> i feel minorities resent the space hinduism occupies in india. thats too bad

That is your deliberate misrepresentation. It is communalism and violation of rights of others by the extremist/fanatic groups is the issue. The world has seen enough of religious extremism, talibanism etc.

Kumar
Bangalore, India
May 05, 2009 12:00 AM
179
Segacious,

>> Have you checked whether they are ready for the reforms or whether they want to change others to their style? I have again and again told you only Khemal ensured that Islam remained within the doors of house in Turkey; no one has attempted during the last 1400 years. We consider the work to be waste of time; the better solution will be to confine the followers in one part of the world and ensure that they do not stray.

BTW, anti-muslim is not the only thing we have seen. We have seen anti-semitism, anti-black sentiment, anti-south indian sentiment, anti-north indian sentiment, anti-brahmin sentiment etc. Sure the people had some problems with them. Hitler wrote a lot about the kind of people Jews are and the problem they create etc. I do not know what your belief system/culture/ideology etc has taught you, but any deliberate injustice to innocent human beings for communal/racist considerations is prohibited by mine. If you are proposing communal/racist injustice in the name of Hinduism, you are demeaning it as well. Use all legitimate legal/military means strongly against violators, but no communalism/racism.
Kumar
Bangalore, India
May 05, 2009 12:00 AM
178
kumar

how are rights of christians being violated.

if there are any problems its due to the fanatical christian missionaries-

christians will see the difference in missionary activity is banned.

christians should be happy with their present members, and stop activities which will result
in problems. this is not asking too much,is it.
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
May 05, 2009 12:00 AM
177
Banito,

>> how are rights of christians being violated.

As a first step, please learn talking about what is right and what is wrong, without being obsessed about "hindus", "muslims", "chrstians" etc. Now, secular democracy is the ideal to be pursued, with all the rights it provides to its citizens. Religion based rule is medieval and archaic. The rioting/murders/vandalism/moral policing etc done by hindutva extremist is of course a violation of the rights of people.

Kumar
Bangalore, India
May 05, 2009 12:00 AM
176
Kumar,

What's the conversion rate in Muslim majority countries? It's always easy to leave a mark on a marshy land.
dip
Dhaka, Bangladesh
May 05, 2009 12:00 AM
175
Kumar,

Maybe Hindus are learning how to protect themselves from elimination and conversion.
dip
Dhaka, Bangladesh
May 05, 2009 12:00 AM
174
Kumar,

What you are facing is a mild blow compared to what happening in other countries in reply of trifling issues, say going to school, singing on TVs, listening music, painting and for a clean shave. Your type of effort will just bring down the hell in those part of the world, you know.
dip
Dhaka, Bangladesh
May 05, 2009 12:00 AM
173
Kumar,

You know something is called demonstration effect.
The mistrust among religion to religion is in its lowest level nowadays. Who is responsible? Give your lecture, post some links revealing that, you gentleman.
dip
Dhaka, Bangladesh
May 05, 2009 12:00 AM
172
Kumar,

Have a wider look, your country is the most affected country in respect of terrorist attacks declared by US today. You people have enough patience. The impatience shown by some people have certainly logical reasons, don't act like a blind.
dip
Dhaka, Bangladesh
May 05, 2009 12:00 AM
171
Kumar,

Resistance is not a sin. Only counting dead bodies is not a wise thing to do. Bloodshed invites bloodshed, similarly one should not keep quiet when homogeneity is at stake.
dip
Dhaka, Bangladesh
May 05, 2009 12:00 AM
170
kumar

dont lecture us.

i have a much broader of history,western philosophy then you. dont talk down to us.

just answer this question. what are you complaining about. i am sure it could not be much. so instead of saying you are doing well, you have to chip in with complaints about the rss.its plain rubbish.

if you lived in the west you could be beaten up by some white groups. would you start blameing the western democracies for it.

stop being a complaining and snivelling brat.

what do you do for society-or is it just complaints.
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
May 05, 2009 12:00 AM
169
K: vandalizing, you say. your jesu-sena distributing leaflets calling krishna a rapist, does it not amount to vandalism ?.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
May 05, 2009 12:00 AM
168
"Do you think the hindutva groups killing/rioting while chanting the name of Ram are real Ram Bhakths or fake Bhakths? What is your opinion? "

Pray the thread is Zazia ,Sufi Muhamd and unfortunate .And you have brought in Ram Bhakats ?
a k ghai
mumbai, India
May 05, 2009 12:00 AM
167
Stopperbhai,

>> you were the one who used to praise th Deoban as the seminary par excellence in India.

Did your parents ever teach you to speak the truth and not to lie?
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
May 05, 2009 12:00 AM
166
Kumar

Since when Secus have started defending Talibans ?
a k ghai
mumbai, India
May 05, 2009 12:00 AM
165
Banito/Lalit,

>> (to Kumar) i have a much broader of history,western philosophy then you.

You may have skimmed through a few books, but you remain an ignoramus. You pick up and remember only the pieces that confirm your prejudices. It is your despicable prejudices that define you.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
May 05, 2009 12:00 AM
164
Khushi Ram/Minu,

>> Sufi Mohamad's interpretation of Sharia is correct.

He is your blood brother! A Muslim idiot with your mentality would say that only true Hindusim is Manusmriti!
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
May 05, 2009 12:00 AM
163
Banoto/Lalit,

>> in denmark the queen is the head of the state. christianity has a much higher status then other religions.

For historical reasons the Church fulfills certain administrative tasks for the state. But 52% of Danes want to split church drom the state. Only 30% want the present arrangement to continue. Many Danish Muslims prefer the present arrangement rather than switch to a secular state. I do not agree with them.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
May 05, 2009 12:00 AM
162
Sagacious/Thiagan,

>> No moderate muslim or the state. The idiot can not find any.

You must truly be an idiot if you think I am going to list them for you! But I can say with certainty that you are no moderate. You are an extreme hate nut.

>> I am against secularism which succumbs to Islamic aggression.

Poor excuse! You are against secularism, period!

>> That is taaquia.

You practice it more than anybody else in this forum.

>> The violence and barbarism of the followers are world wide; I am giving a global overview to prove that they are undesirables.

The violence and barbarism of humans is worldwide, but you are too idiotic to see that. That's what makes you an undesirable.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
May 05, 2009 12:00 AM
161
Sagacious/Thiagan,

>> They firebomb 60 kar sevaks and what do you expect the Hindu majority to do.

Idiot, read the Banerjee Report. Also read the eye witness accounts from the Tehelka tapes.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
May 05, 2009 12:00 AM
160
Banito/Lalit,

>> he is convinced that muslims by and large are like the rest of humanity.

Only a total moron would make such a stupid comment.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
May 05, 2009 12:00 AM
159
Sagaciou/Thiagan,

>> Have you checked whether they are ready for the reforms.

Many want reform. But many are as backward as yourself. You will see only those who are as hateful as yourself. You will be blind to the rest.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
May 05, 2009 12:00 AM
158
Banito/Lalit (to Kumar),

>> you can read new york times, newsweek usa, the telegraph, independent from england.
>> fareed zakaria, salman rushdie express their views from time to time.

None of them share your hateful views. They express liberal views and point out the need for reform, but for you to see any similarity between their views and your obnoxious and dumb views just shows the severity of your denseness.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
May 04, 2009 12:00 AM
157
Aspi,

>> kumar for heavens sake what is wrong is calling rame sene hindu taliban

So are you supporting Ram Sene? If not, what is wrong in condemning Ram Sene? Even BJP condemned it. What is wrong in condemning all religious extremist organizations?

>> when the same critics are hiding in their ratholes (and also hiding facts about real taliban), with regard to enforced sharia

No one is hiding anywhere. There is a relentless condemnation on the Islamists/Taliban etc everyday all over the world. There are even wars going on to fight the Islamist terrorists/taliban.

>> it is treason,fraud and injustice agianst hindus ..

Again, just condemn what is wrong and approve what is right, keeping aside all petty religious considerations, identities etc. Why do you have to argue about such a simple principle.
Kumar
Bangalore, India
May 04, 2009 12:00 AM
156
Segacious,

>> Kumar, you have still hope!!! Moderate muslim country Malaysia bans Ahemmedia mosque and terms the minority as non muslims. This is the moderate version of Islam; imagine the non moderates?


The 'hope' I have is in building up a condemnation of the beliefs/practices of religion (where ever there is scope for improvement), so much so, that the only option left is to catchup with the best of ideas or collapse. Every religion faces this challenge, and at this point of time, Islam is facing the toughest challenge. The issue is not about holding out any hope for the religion. If the religious beliefs/practices do not catch up with the best, it has to collapse (at least the specific beliefs/practices in question). It is as simple as that.
Kumar
Bangalore, India
May 04, 2009 12:00 AM
155
04/05/09

"The tolerance of a society is judged by its acts, not by what laws are on the books."

I agree; we saw the compassion of TROP in the video clip where the girls is admnistered 34 lashes for being seen talking to an unrelated man. It is indeed a religion of peace!

"When a 'majority' needs to be protected, it is an anomalous situation!"

It is sad but true; but that is the situation that has been created by the secular fanatics, they are neither Hindus nor muslims nor Christians. They are religious and cultural transgenders.

the sagacious
Los Angeles, United States
May 04, 2009 12:00 AM
154
04/05/09

"The real question is what would happen if the Sangh goons are in absolute power at the center."

I can assure that they will not rape or kill or collect jazzia, as the followers do.
the sagacious
Los Angeles, United States
May 04, 2009 12:00 AM
153
04/05/09

18% of the muslims in Denmark support terrorism. The others are practising taaquia. Read:

"Denmark: Muslim attitudes towards terrorism, terrorist groups and the Iraq/Afghanistan Wars

82% of Danish Muslims reject terrorism, 18% support the Islamic Jihad and 31% see the Iraq/Afghanistan wars as an attack against Islam.

For more study results see:
* Denmark: 55% of Muslims think criticizing religion should be forbidden, 64% support curtailing freedom of speech
* Denmark: Close to 90% of Muslims would vote for the Left
* Denmark: 60% don't go to mosque, imams unrepresentative
* Denmark: 18% of Muslims want to see Sharia law implemented

An overwhelming majority of the Danish population clearly rejects terrorism. But in the group of Muslims the numbers are not as high as in the rest of the population.

When asking the non-Muslim part of the population, 97% says that terrorism is unacceptable.

But only 82% of Muslims clearly reject terrorism, a survey conducted by Capacent for DR Nyheder shows.

The rest of the Muslims do not directly reject terrorism. Six percent agree that terrorism can be acceptable.

Justice minister Brian Mikkelsen is concerned about the numbers.

"We live in a rule of law and a democracy. In a society like ours it should have been all Muslims without exception who reject terrorism."

Terrorism researcher Jørgen Staun of the Danish Institute for International Studies is however not as concerned as the minister.

"It can be that those who were asked have a different understanding than what people here in th country have of what is terrorism. It can be that they don't think it's terrorism, but a war of liberation," he told Radioavisen. [DR's radio news]"

See the views on freedom of speech, shariaa ad the right to criticise religions etc. The barbarians have no place in any civilised society.


the sagacious
Los Angeles, United States
May 04, 2009 12:00 AM
152
Sagacious/Thiagan,

>>>> The tolerance of a society is judged by its acts, not by what laws are on the books."
>> I agree.

So you agree that as long as we have dowry deaths, Bajrangi atrocities and remnants of caste system in India, we should not be giving ourselves any airs, and we should be more humble.

>>>> When a 'majority' needs to be protected, it is an anomalous situation!
>> It is sad but true.

It is sad but not true. The sangh is spreading fear and paranoia because it helps them politically. They want to be considered saviors of Hindus, when actually their agenda is to set India back with their ideas of Hindu Rashtra.

>> The real question is what would happen if the Sangh goons are in absolute power at the center."
>> I can assure that they will not rape or kill or collect jazzia.

Judging from what happened in Gujarat, Orissa and Mangalore, I would not be so sure.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
May 04, 2009 12:00 AM
151
Sagacious/Thiagan,

>> 18% of the muslims in Denmark support terrorism.

Idiot you want to tell such dumb lies, which can be caught in a second! The survey said, "82% of Danish Muslims reject terrorism, 18% support the Islamic Jihad". Even the comment, "The rest of the Muslims do not directly reject terrorism. Six percent agree that terrorism can be acceptable" is clearly explained by terrorism researcher Jørgen Staun of the Danish Institute for International Studies when he says, "It can be that those who were asked have a different understanding than what people here in th country have of what is terrorism. It can be that they don't think it's terrorism, but a war of liberation".

97% of the non-Muslims say that terrorism is unacceptable. Does that mean 3% of the non-Muslim population support terrorism.

You are getting quite a reputation as a liar in this forum. I suppose all hate pracharaks have to be liars.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
May 04, 2009 12:00 AM
150
04/05/09

" Denmark: 55% of Muslims think criticizing religion should be forbidden, 64% support curtailing freedom of speech
* Denmark: Close to 90% of Muslims would vote for the Left
* Denmark: 60% don't go to mosque, imams unrepresentative
* Denmark: 18% of Muslims want to see Sharia law implemented"

Kumar, does any one require further evidence to buttress my satement that the followers are unfit in any civilised society? The danger is they will convert them into AfPaks.

the sagacious
Los Angeles, United States
May 04, 2009 12:00 AM
149
04/05/09

"Does that mean 3% of the non-Muslim population support terrorism."

Perhaps they support terrorism against terrorists and that is fair.
the sagacious
Los Angeles, United States
May 04, 2009 12:00 AM
148
>> It can be that they don't think it's terrorism, but a war of liberation".

The same explanation used by Osama & probably the same reason why swami anwarananda continues to support an organisation , which trained , armed & sent jihadis to fire against indian troops in kashmir.Btw , LeT also coniders their actions against India as war of liberation from the kafirs.
lookout bug me not
mumbai, India
May 04, 2009 12:00 AM
147
Stopperbhai,

> its unfortunate that the bbalance 97% remained tight lipped.

If you remain tight lipped for a few days, it would be a blessing.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
May 04, 2009 12:00 AM
146
Sagacious/Thiagan,

>> does any one require further evidence to buttress my satement that the followers are unfit in any civilised society.

Actually it is you, with your intolerance and hatefulness, who are unfit to live in a civilized society. Hence it is utterly laughable for you to try to define who can and who cannot live in a civilized society.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
May 04, 2009 12:00 AM
145
04/05/09

"Actually it is you, with your intolerance and hatefulness, who are unfit to live in a......"

It is the brainwashed lunatic who wil justify the followers immigrating into Denmark and other places and subvert their countries with shariaa and terrorism. These characters should be completely eliminated from the civilised world and pushed into the Middl East and bottled up there.
the sagacious
Los Angeles, United States
May 04, 2009 12:00 AM
144
Sagacious/Thiagan,

>> These characters should be completely eliminated from the civilised world.

There is so much poison in this bigot's posts! People with such psychotic hatred should be segregated in a mental hospital setting.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
May 04, 2009 12:00 AM
143
04/05/09

Seventy five percent of Pakistanis want shariaa law to replace secular laws and eighty four percent consider US more dangerous than Taliban. The crazy characters will however demand US aid as jaziaa payment. Read:

"The reports states: "According to a USIP poll from February 2008, more Pakistanis (about 84 per cent) see the US presence in Asia as a threat to Pakistan than they perceive Al-Qaeda (about 62 per cent) or the Taliban (50 per cent) to be."

Furthermore, the report adds that more than fifty percent of people believe that the major aim of the US forces was to weaken the Muslim world.

"Some 58 per cent believe that the purpose of the US 'war on terror' is to weaken the Muslim world and another 15 per cent believe it is to be specifically intended to ensure American domination over Pakistan," The Nation quoted the report, as stating.

Pakistanis may consider the US troops as a threat to their sovereignty, but, the report adds, "Interestingly, in October 2008, Pakistan's parliament voted unanimously for a resolution that emphasised the threat of militant groups."

Parliament had also called for negotiations with these extremists groups rather than initiating military operations, it said."

I am awaiting the day when Taliban will overrun Islamabad and Zardari will meet the fate of Najibulla.

http://www.jihadwatch.o...ives/025953.php#respond





the sagacious
Los Angeles, United States
May 04, 2009 12:00 AM
142
sagacious

faruki prefers to be with nonmuslims, rather then
the followers. in that he shows some good taste.

what can one say about millions of people who
are willing to ignore the daily crimes, murders,opression in their own community, and lecture others on good behaviour.

faruki is not only a loathesome member of the large ummah. like other muslims he is completely insensitive to the ugly reality of his foul religion and repulsive community. however he criticises nonmuslims, as an excuse not to face
his own communities problems.

the final proof is that knowing our views he still infests this forum- any other person would have quit by now.

he lives in usa, which gives him protection,
freedom of speech, and a good social system, and keeps on babbling about the innate wonders of islam-

no one can change his mind, or that of the other believers. they are doomed to live in ignorance,
hate, violence for many decades from now.

they are their own worst enemies and especially of their poor women folk.

i suggest that all members of this forum should watch the 2 video films shown by new york times.

it shows the ultimate degradation of muslim societies, and the sickening hypocracy of the faruki,s and their kind who give it a clean chit.
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
May 04, 2009 12:00 AM
141
"hate, violence for many decades from now.

they are their own worst enemies and especially of their poor women folk."

They have to follow religeously Sahria ,Hadeeth and the Book.Hence they are not wrong whereas you an Maulvi ji are not only wrong but also are spreading Kuffer by trying to educate females in an Islamic society.

Baggai you and others needlessly curse Sawati Talibans.They are demanding Zazia irrespective of the capicity of the payees capicity as per their faith.aurangzeb too did this .They kidnap ,they break houses of the Sardars and do their mandated Religeous duties to recover Zazia from the Non believers.Nothing wrong .

They burn girls schools ,shops,break idols,mandirs ,Gurdawars ec as mandated by their faith .Even Satya has justified the collection of Jajia. maulvi ji abuses them hardly but us regularly.

Your wife is right . Baba sain 'Mauke ki nazakat ko samjoh'!
Khushi Ram
ambala cantt, India
May 04, 2009 12:00 AM
140
Baggai sahib this will clarify your mind :

"Democracy un-Islamic: Sufi Muhammad in Swat

Islamabad: Radical cleric Sufi Muhammad, who played a crucial role in enforcing Islamic law in Pakistan’s restive northwestern Swat valley, on Sunday said there is no room for democracy in Islam and that no one could appeal against the verdict of Sharia courts.

Addressing a gathering of thousands of people at Mingora, the main city of Swat district, the chief of the banned Tehrik-e-Nifaz-e-Shariah Muhammadi (TNSM) described democracy as an un-Islamic system. The existing system contravenes Islam and the Quran, he claimed. Asserting that there is no room for democracy in an Islamic system, he claimed Pakistan’s rulers are appeasing the West by thrusting the system of “kafirs” or infidels on the people of the country.

Muhammad said many years of struggle for implementing Sharia or Islamic law in Malakand division, which includes Swat, were bearing results. Claiming that all un-Islamic laws will soon be abolished in Malakand, he asked all civil judges to leave the region by April 23. “I want all (civil) judges in Malakand division to withdraw from the area. Darul Qaza (appellate courts) should be formed in each district by April 23 and Qazis appointed in all districts within this month. If this is not done, the government will be responsible for any consequences,” he said.

The pro-Taliban cleric, who set up Qazi or Islamic courts in Swat even before President Asif Ali Zardari ratified a controversial law to enforce Sharia, said no appeal could be made against a verdict given by a Qazi court in civil courts. Such decisions could be appealed only in Darul Qaza, or superior courts in the Sharia system, he added.

High Courts and the Supreme Court contravene Sharia and appeals in such institutions would be “haram” or unlawful. The final decisions of the Darul Qaza cannot be challenged in High Courts or the Supreme Court, he said.

Muhammad said Pakistan’s judicial system should be in accordance with Sharia. He did not make any appeal to the Taliban to lay down their arms. It was widely expected that he would do so as the gathering had been termed a peace rally. "

Sardars are wrong that they want some mercy .Even if Sufi mohamd wishes he can't show mercy because he is not permitted.

Baggai be practical .It is Sardars mistake that they stayed in Pakistan -the land where all the Muslims were to live .
Khushi Ram
ambala cantt, India
May 04, 2009 12:00 AM
139
khushi ram

i agree with you.

the sikhs,hindus should have left pakistan, and many muslims from india should have immigrated to pakistan.

i think that this was a sensible solution.

why should communities who are so distrustful of each other,live togather.

the forefathers of muslims converted to islam, showing that their loyalty lay else where. its
silly to pretend that they care for india. we
have proof from hundreds of years that they dont.

let this be accepted once and for all. we can not change this fact,if we have a few shah rukh khans,and amir khans as good examples.

most of the hate ,problems would disappear in time if we lived separately. all the anti muslim rhetoric would disappear if we were not constantly goaded by faruki.

for my part i would help the poor people of swat, the nice looking kids if i had a chance to do so. on the other hand i would shoot all the
bearded fanatic muslims in cold blood, and consider it a humanitarian task.

my blood boils when i see inhumanity to any one, and especially to poor helpless women and children by any one.

the muslim world is due for a spring cleaning.
hundreds of thousands of these insane cruel blackgaurds should be killed, imprisoned and dealt with a harsh hand.

for this we need some one really hard.there are many who would be suitable for this job.
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
May 04, 2009 12:00 AM
138
Banito,

>> the sikhs,hindus should have left pakistan, and many muslims from india should have immigrated to pakistan. i think that this was a sensible solution. why should communities who are so distrustful of each other,live togather

It is never so simple. If the evil is in the heart, it expresses itself one way or the other. Your 'solution' is like saying the problem of promiscuity will be solved by keeping women under burqas and in the four walls of a home. It won’t, because the problem (if you call it a ‘problem’) is in the heart, to begin with. In the same way, the problem of communalism/casteism/racism etc is an evil in the heart and even if living separately, there will be some other issue like caste or language or color or whatever that such a person will seek and find.

>> the forefathers of muslims converted to islam, showing that their loyalty lay else where.

Loyalty is elsewhere, like what? What about a loyalty to a search for something better (as they saw it) in terms of justice, humanism, religious doctrine etc? You have said earlier, "all religions are not the same - some are better than others". I would modify that statement to say, "Not all prevalent beliefs/practices of a religion are the same - some are better than others". For a dalit under the yoke of caste system can find a non-caste religion like Islam as attractive (there may be other problems with the beliefs/practices of Islam, be those may not be the immediate concern of the person in question). Or a person can find a certain religious doctrine of a certain religion as attractive. No religion is absolutely perfect in its beliefs/practices and as long as there is a possibility of a certain idea in terms of justice, freedom, humanism, religious doctrine etc of one religion can be perceived to be better than another, there is always the possibility of people choosing to believe religions other than the religion of birth. Every religion has to constantly catch up with the best of ideas in the market. No amount of force, pleading or indulgence in violence etc can change that. People are always in constant search for better and better ideas.

>> my blood boils when i see inhumanity to any one

In which case, you should support the modern ideas like secular democracy and not extremist religion based politics and rule of law as in medieval times.

Kumar
Bangalore, India
May 04, 2009 12:00 AM
137
kumar

would you have taliban kinda guys liveing in your
neighbourhood, hopeing that you can talk them into secularism, tolerance.

europeans have experimented with this kind of
situation, and discovered that it does not work.

einstein is reported to have said.

if you try something 3 or 4 times and it does not work,then better give up.

life has many possibilities, and i for one dont
want to waste my time being togather with faruki,s and kumars.

you 2 spokes people for liberal and secular societies should get togather. leave us alone, and stop lectureing us.

we know reality, and we dont need to learn it from you.

incidentally all over europe, christians and muslims are in the worst of terms. try contacting some of them.
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
May 04, 2009 12:00 AM
136
kumar

i would be happy in liveing in a plural liberal society, but without intolerant muslims.

thats the wish of many scandinavians.

one danish commentator wrote.

we have problems with 200,000 muslims.

we would not have problems with 200,000 chinese-

you are terribly obtuse.
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
May 04, 2009 12:00 AM
135
Banito,

>> would you have taliban kinda guys liveing in your neighbourhood,

Taliban kind of religious extremists/fanatics who want to impose a religion based politics/rule are not tolerated in secular democracies. That is the kind of neighborhood I want to live in (and want to condemn that which falls short).

>> incidentally all over europe, christians and muslims are in the worst of terms

It is the religious extremism/fanaticism that they are opposed to. They are equally critical fanatic Christians as well. No one is against a muslim who is a good human being, supporting democratic polity.
Kumar
Bangalore, India
May 04, 2009 12:00 AM
134
Banito,

>> i would be happy in liveing in a plural liberal society, but without intolerant muslims.

I will modify that statement to say "I would be happy living in a plural liberal society, but without intolerant extremists/fanatics of any religion. And where rights/justice/freedom of all people are respected"

>> one danish commentator wrote. we have problems with 200,000 muslims. we would not have problems with 200,000 chinese-

Whatever be the percentage of muslims (or of any religion) who are extremist/fanatic, let us oppose all of them. If the percentage extremists/fanatics in one religion is 10% and in another religion it is 60%, so be it. Let us oppose/condemn the 10% and 60% respectively.

Kumar
Bangalore, India
May 04, 2009 12:00 AM
133
kumar

if muslims have 80 percent fanatics, and if hindus have about 10 percent fanatics, then the choice is clear.

western nations in makeing immigration policies will of cource prefer the hindus. govts and policy makers have to make such judgements.

if a immigration minister was to invite foreign workers where should he go.

pakistan, china, india or phillipines.

the choice for me is clear. it is not for you. you would tie yourself in knots,and ultimately
choose pakistan.
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
May 04, 2009 12:00 AM
132
kumar

you are the typical wooly headed secularist.

you can not decide whether you want coffee or tea.instead you will tie yourself into knots and chose to drink water.
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
May 04, 2009 12:00 AM
131
04/05/09

"No one is against a muslim who is a good human being, supporting democratic polity."

Where is that man? Please tell us; the whole world is searching for him. The followers are of three kinds: like vulcanoe, there are active jihadis, there are dormant jihadis, there are dead jihadis. The last one is the safest.

the sagacious
Los Angeles, United States
May 04, 2009 12:00 AM
130
04/05/09

"i would be happy in liveing in a plural liberal society, but without intolerant muslims."

Do not indulge in verbal gymnastics; name the place without intolerant muslims. Is it in Asia, Europe or USA. The West can do better by not allowing their immigration; that makes better sense than your secularism.

the sagacious
Los Angeles, United States
May 04, 2009 12:00 AM
129
Banito,

>> if muslims have 80 percent fanatics, and if hindus have about 10 percent fanatics, then the choice is clear.

That is a like saying that 80% of dalits/blacks are criminals without producing any basis. In any case, the choice is clear – one should not be part of the 80% or the 10% and should condemn them.

>> western nations in makeing immigration policies will of cource prefer the hindus. govts and policy makers have to make such judgements. if a immigration minister was to invite foreign workers where should he go. pakistan, china, india or phillipines.

Policy makers can blacklist certain countries, companies etc and that is their prerogative.
Kumar
Bangalore, India
May 04, 2009 12:00 AM
128
Segacious,

>> The followers are of three kinds: like vulcanoe, there are active jihadis, there are dormant jihadis, there are dead jihadis. The last one is the safest.

There are many other - like those who do not care about religion (but classify themselves as muslim as they are born in a muslim house hold) Or those who believe that Islam is nothing more than a few articles of faith like the five pillars of Islam. Or those who believe that religion should a private matter and that in today’s context secular democracy is the best and so on. These categories of people exist in all religions (though it is true that as things stand today, religion and politics is seen to be the most intertwined in case of Islam)
Kumar
Bangalore, India
May 04, 2009 12:00 AM
127
Kumar,

>>For a dalit under the yoke of caste system can find a non-caste religion like Islam as attractive

'Just as a human is not possible without its limbs,
so is the establishment of a caste less society not
conceivable' -that might be the thought of caste system in Hinduism. It's reforming - don't be so happy.
dip
Dhaka, Bangladesh
May 04, 2009 12:00 AM
126
Sagacious/Thiagan,

>> "Some 58 per cent believe that the purpose of the US 'war on terror' is to weaken the Muslim world and another 15 per cent believe it is to be specifically intended to ensure American domination over Pakistan,"

Only an idiot like you would think that is news. That poll was taken 15 months ago and it is old hat. The suspiciousness of the Muslim world to the United States has been common knowledge for decades to all except ignoramuses like you who quote material from anti-Islamic hate sites such as jihadwatch. While public opinion seems to have turned since the Talibani power grab in Swat and infiltration into Punjab, some wariness about Americans will always be there, and Americans are well aware of it. Hate pracharaks like you must be desperate to get anti-Islamic material to think that this piece is news. You are trult an idiot.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
May 04, 2009 12:00 AM
125
Banito/Lalit,

>> what can one say about millions of people who
are willing to ignore the daily crimes, murders,opression in their own community.

What has a fart like you done about 5000 dowry deaths a year, thousands of female foeticides each year, and rape and abuse of dalit girls in India? Pointing fingers at others is easy, even for a dumbbell like you.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
May 04, 2009 12:00 AM
124
Khushi Ram/Minu,

>> Sardars are wrong that they want some mercy .Even if Sufi mohamd wishes he can't show mercy because he is not permitted.

Lying is your stock in trade, but even an idiot like you should know that about 50 Muslim organizations, religious as well as political, have condemned the jazia on Sikhs. Even the Kashmiri separatist leader Gilani has condemned it.

>> Radical cleric Sufi Muhammad .... said there is no room for democracy in Islam.

Only morons like you and Sagacious would think that such stupid clerics speak for Islam.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
May 04, 2009 12:00 AM
123
".... the so-called jizya tax that has been imposed on the hapless Sikhs of the territories that have now fallen into Taliban control. In a recent statement denouncing the levying of this tax, a group of prominent Indian Muslim leaders, including numerous notable Sunni ulema, pointed out that ‘The imposition of the so-called jizya is nothing more than extortion by an armed and lawless gang, which does not constitute a sovereign government or state or even an organ thereof.’ Taking note of the fact that the Taliban had demanded that the Sikhs cough up millions of rupees as jizya, the statement added, ‘As regards the huge amounts in millions reported to be demanded, these are arbitrary and exorbitant as the amount of annual jizya paid by non-Muslims in early Islam was merely one to one and a half dinar, which is 4.24 gram to 6.36 grams of gold. Moreover, this tax was payable only at the end of the year and not in advance.’ Hence, the statement concluded, ‘We regard this as an act of injustice incompatible with the letter and spirit of Islam and the international covenants accepted by all Muslim states.’"

"Muslims who wish to rescue their faith from peddlers of terror like Sufi Muhammad need to make their voices heard even louder today." (Yoginder Sikand).


http://www.countercurrents.org/sikand040509.htm

Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
May 04, 2009 12:00 AM
122
faruki

you have obviously much to criticise us hindus,
americans,westerners.

my suggestion has always been that you live apart
from us, in your own countries, with what ever form of govt you chose.

thats my view. let the seculars try and get on the best they can with muslims and each other.

frankly there is no point in this debate. you are not prepared to admit anything wrong about mehemmet, the koran, various muslim communities.

instead you attack the others as if their crimes are even 1 percent of which you are guilty of.

i saw on tv today a interview with robert redeker a french philosopher who has been in hideing for 3 years, because he is under death threats from muslim killers. he was silly enough to write an islamic critic article.it showed how silly it is to interfere with islam. it is pointless and dangerous.

there are so many problems with insane people in your communities. the positives are nonexistent.

i hope that i am through with you. arguments
are like water on a ducks back, as it is with most muslim people like you.

the only solution is that nonmuslims take effective measures to build their own societies
without you.no arguments, no debates. just firm
action.

regarding the various maladies in hindu and nonmuslim societies we will deal with them in due cource.

today western societies are haveing quite a few problems of their own. on top of this they have also problems with pakistani,s, arabs, and others
not necessarily muslims.it is absurd.

we should solve our problems, and it does not help that we constantly engaged how best we can
sort out problems with you.

i know you will not understand.the best you can do is to help fellow muslims, and leave us alone.
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
May 03, 2009 12:00 AM
121
03/05/09

Swine flu, no we are muslims! See how the barbarians behave. Read:

"While much of the world is gripped by panic, some Muslims feel they will be immune from Swine Flu, believing it is Allah’s curse upon infidels:

Anyone with eyes can clearly see that this new disease is a curse from Allah upon America. The Mujahideen and those who support them continue to ask Allah to destroy America. Allah responded. Today, they are being destroyed military, economically, and now they are being destroyed with a new disease that is spreading fast. May Allah protect the Muslims in the West from this disease and may this disease reach all the enemies of Allah so that the American Government can no longer move a finger against the Ummah!
The people of the world should start realizing that the prohibition of pork in Islam has more benefits than harm. Islam is the only way out for success in both worlds.

In addition, Americans need to start realizing that their Government is fighting Allah in this bogus ‘war on terrorism’. The lesson of the day: if you fight Allah, Allah will terminate you in both worlds./images/stories/allahswill.jpg
Comments included:

SAJEMAN -
Allahs curse is upon the infidels and the muslims will be victorious they did not believe in the true God and they will be punished here and in the here after both the earthquakes and swine flu are Allahs curse on them me Islam be all over the world INSHALLAH AMEEN
wolverine

christians are obsessed with pig eating even though the bible forbids it in the book of levetus. i hope the pig eating christians turn into pigs…..lol (source)

What delightful sentiments, especially considering how people in the West rush to help Muslims whenever a natural disaster overtakes them! Obviously reciprocity is not considered a virtue in Islam."
the sagacious
Los Angeles, United States
May 03, 2009 12:00 AM
120
Sagacious/Thiagan,

>> While much of the world is gripped by panic, some Muslims feel they will be immune from Swine Flu, believing it is Allah’s curse upon infidels.

Some Muslims are almost as stupid as you are. Some even are as hateful as you are.

>> May Allah protect the Muslims in the West from this disease and may this disease reach all the enemies of Allah .

This sounds like the Muslim version of Seshadri! However only idiots would consider such stupidities to be worth posting in this forum.

Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
May 03, 2009 12:00 AM
119
03/05/09

"Some Muslims are almost as stupid as you are. Some even are as hateful as you are."

I am not stupid but the followers are; hence their ignoarance and poverty. Hatred starts with the verses and the violence from the founder.

the sagacious
Los Angeles, United States
May 03, 2009 12:00 AM
118
03/05/09

Kumar, you have still hope!!! Moderate muslim country Malaysia bans Ahemmedia mosque and terms the minority as non muslims. This is the moderate version of Islam; imagine the non moderates?

"PETALING JAYA, Malaysia ) - The Selangor Council of Islamic Religion in Malaysia has issued a notice ordering the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community Malaysia (AMC Malaysia) to immediately stop offering Friday Prayer services at the national AMC headquarters, the Bait-us-Salam Mosque.
Various other activities of AMC Malaysia have also been banned under the terms of the notice and members of the AMC have been threatened with imprisonment and fines if they do not comply.

The Selangor Council of Islamic Religion which is also known as ‘Majlis Agama Islam Selangor’ (MAIS) is the highest Islamic authority in the Selangor State apart from the Sultan of Malaysia.

On April 24, 2009 several MAIS officers came to the Bait-us-Salam Mosque and issued a notice under the ‘Selangor State Enactment on the Administration of Islamic Law 2003.’ The notice stated:

1) AMC Malaysia no longer has permission to offer Friday prayers at the Bait-us-Salam Mosque.

2) AMC Malaysia no longer has official permission to use Bait-us-Salam as a Mosque.

3) AMC Malaysia no longer has permission to conduct activities related to the mosque such as appointing officers and managing the premises.

Furthermore a notice has been placed around the Mosque stating ‘Qadiani Bukan Agama Islam.’ This translates as ‘Ahmadiyya is not an Islamic Religion."

the sagacious
Los Angeles, United States
May 03, 2009 12:00 AM
117
03/05/09

Nine countries out of 13 named for worst religious intolerance and six others on the watch list. Islam is indeed the religion of peace. AP, it is shameful. Deny secularism to the frollowers.

"WASHINGTON (CNN) -- A U.S. government panel listed 13 countries Friday as "egregious" violators of religious freedom.

The U.S. Commission on International Religious Freedom's annual report named Myanmar, North Korea, Eritrea, Iran, Iraq, Nigeria, Pakistan, China, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, and Vietnam.

It recommended that the Obama administration designate them as "countries of particular concern" or CPC.

The group has issued a watch list that includes Afghanistan, Belarus, Cuba, Egypt, Indonesia, Laos, Russia, Somalia, Tajikistan, Turkey, and Venezuela, countries that don't rise to the level of a CPC but need to be monitored...."

the sagacious
Los Angeles, United States
May 03, 2009 12:00 AM
116
Sagacious/Thiagan,

>> I am not stupid but the followers are.

The evidence points to the contrary.

>> bans Ahemmedia mosque and terms the minority as non muslims.

That is as bigotted and idiotic as not allowing Dalits in some temples. However going to Malaysia to find material for your hate prachar shows your dedication to creating discord among Indians. Keep it up!
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
May 03, 2009 12:00 AM
115
Sagacious,

>> Nine countries out of 13 named for worst religious intolerance.

What's new in that? What are you gloating about? There is religious intolerance in sections of India, for example in the VHP, Bajrang Dal, Abhinav Bharat and Ram SEne, organizations that you and Seshadri and Banito are sympathetic with. And intolerance against Dalits has not disapppeared.

Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
May 03, 2009 12:00 AM
114
03/05/09

"That is as bigotted and idiotic as not allowing Dalits in some temples."

Rubbish. Idiot, untouchability is a serious offence and is punishable in law. It is the law in Malaysia to ban the Ahemeddias. You are such a brainwashed lunatic that you can not see the difference. I am posting them to tell the viewers what will happen if Sangh parivar is not there to protect the Hindu majority.

The other comments are plain rubbish.
the sagacious
Los Angeles, United States
May 03, 2009 12:00 AM
113
faruki

you are the perfect example of the fanatic muslim,who will distort reality,tell lies and
turn to any of the most stupid argument to protect your stupid and evil religion.

ultimately you people,at least in states like gujerat, have to live amongst hindus.

with your attitudes of stupid confrontation
you will be marginalised to live in slums,denied
any opportunity. this is similar to the situation in western europe.

you may convince yourself and the muslims in the islamic centre, but you will remain pariahs in
the civilised world. none of us hindu liberals buy your ideas. you are unwanted in our society.

muslims demand freedom from nonmuslims,and have formed their own states in pakistan, bangladesh.

its eminently fair if hindus demand freedom from muslims. it would be fair where necessary and adviseable to create states without muslims .

its time to say that . you can not and should not be allowed a unilateral right to form pure
muslim states, discriminate against minorities,
and object to others doing the same.

that would solve problems for us hindus. if there are non muslims who feel differently they can choose for themselves.

ethnic separation and not plural societies will be the best for all concerned.

if you object start by adressing yourself to
pakistan, a country closest to you. and moreover
adress yourself to your fellow muslims. time has
shown that you are not one of us, and your way
of thinking is quite repulsive for us.

bon voyage to mecca.

ps i have informed you of the date 15 th september 2006 , when nbc brought out the statement of the pope, about his views on islam.

it shows that you are also a lier.
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
May 03, 2009 12:00 AM
112
faruki

the western press publishes views about the muslim world. they are always bad,showing that apes have more sense.

any complaints should be adressed to the western media,
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
May 03, 2009 12:00 AM
111
sagaciou

you should read aatish taseers book on his views
about pakistan etc. naipaul has commended the book.

you can google for a review of this view.

he writes about his views about pakistani,s and
british pakistani,s.

i wonder if indian muslims are any different.

knowing faruki,s views i think they must be equally fanatic.
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
May 03, 2009 12:00 AM
110
Sagacious/Thiagan,

>> untouchability is a serious offence and is punishable in law.

You keep coming up with the same idiotic excuse, as if the victims of the caste system, dowry deaths and Bajrangi violence have less cause to complain because those acts are crimes in Indian law! The tolerance of a society is judged by its acts, not by what laws are on the books.

>> what will happen if Sangh parivar is not there to protect the Hindu majority.

When a 'majority' needs to be protected, it is an anomalous situation! The real question is what would happen if the Sangh goons are in absolute power at the center. How different they would be from the Malaysian goons in the treatment of minorities?
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
May 03, 2009 12:00 AM
109
Banito/Lalit,

>> you are the perfect example of the fanatic muslim,who will distort reality.

This seems to be your way of saying that you really do not have any valid arguments to make.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
May 02, 2009 12:00 AM
108
Khushi Ram/Minu,

>> whom should we believe your version or the Sufi's version ?

You should believe Mullah Sufi Mohamd the Talibani Mullah, because you and he are on the same wavelength.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
May 02, 2009 12:00 AM
107
KUMAR SAYS:You seem to be mistaking religious extremism/terrorism as "religous fervour".

please do not play stupid semantics here.fervour and extremism are subjective intangibles and it just shows how confused you are.


k says: Sure, a vast majority of hindus are secular and all parties except BJP/ShivSena fight for votes of people who are secular. Even BJP is putting hindutva to the background and even condemning things like the content of Varun’s CD, deeds of Ram Sene etc (at least for public consumption, which is a good sign)

EXACTLY .So why are you wasting time lecturing here 24-7 only to hindus ,unless you want to sedate and malign the tolerant hindus even out of their right to defend their land against the dar ul islama verses of the koran.

Either shut up or go and lecture your freinds in the mosques or muslim websites or in kashmir.Tell them about burkhas,tv ban,polygamy,triple talaq,compulsory noneducation
which are far more grave and ancient than some stupid incident in mangalore which you call the hindu taliban.

but you are an asset to jihadis,when they take india over,it wil be because you put us to sleep with your and media's 24-7 lectures and camapign calling us the hindu taliban when the real taliban in india do not even allow a rushdie novel,cartoons,statesman recently retracted on a report offending muslims in cacutta and the eds were arrested.

while people like u and media hide these facts.

aurangzeb gauteier exhibition was cancelled in chennai due to muslim protest.

AND YOU GUYS CAN LIE ABOUT MODI AND HINDU TALIBAN when u cant even report facts about the real taliban in india.

if hindus were capable of talibanism you would not be lieing about them day and night and defaming them.

poor meek hindus,cant even enforce defamation against them and their leaders like modi.

taliban killed a couple for adultery as per sharia.and poor ramsene pulled some girls hair for pub nuisance in a rare incident and they become taliban as per media and the great lecturer.

in taliban country u will not even have free media to speak truth let alone lie.ASK THE EDS OF THE STATEMAN CAL AND gautier whose chennai exhibition wa sbanned and english media hide s tue facts about muslims and lies 24-7 about hindus.taliban indeed.

media is ragging hindus knowing their weakness just like u.paid cowards leping jihad and sedating hindus.shame on u slimes.

aspi
porland, United States
May 02, 2009 12:00 AM
106
"leping jihad" should be "helping jihad" in last line below.

i am really bad and slow at typing.please bear with that.forget changing cap key often.
aspi
porland, United States
May 02, 2009 12:00 AM
105
Aspi,

>> please do not play stupid semantics here

The term 'fervor' can be used in a positive sense. Those who chant the name of Allah while slitting throats or chant the name of Ram while killing/rioting/hate-speeches etc do not have anything positive in terms of religion/spirituality etc. The terms like fanatics/extremists/terrorists are the right terms to describe them.

>> So why are you wasting time lecturing here 24-7 only to hindus

Again, as I said before, can't you just talk of what is right and what is wrong, without talking about "hindus", "muslims", "chrstians" etc? I am not "lecturing" any community like "hindus", "muslims", "chrstians" etc. I am condemning what I see as wrong and expressing my support to what I see as right (regardless of religious affiliation/considerations).

>> media's 24-7 lectures and camapign calling us the hindu taliban ..

If Islamist terrorists are bombing and slitting throats chanting the name of Allah, the rightful response is to attack them from a secular democratic platform (ideologically and where required, militarily). Instead, to kill/riot etc in the name of Ram instead of Allah is rather silly, tragic and helps the terrorists further.

>> .. burkhas,tv ban,polygamy,triple talaq,compulsory noneducation ...do not even allow a rushdie novel,cartoons,statesman recently retracted on a report offending muslims in cacutta ..

Yes, please join me and many others in giving a stinging condemnation of all those things done in the belief/practice of Islam.

>> .. defamation against them and their leaders like modi.

Modi is a public political figure like any other politician like Indira Gandhi or Rajiv Gandhi, Mayawati etc who has to face the scrutiny, attack, criticism etc. If Rajiv Gandhi can be taken to task for one single statement he made in 1984, Modi can surely be targeted for his role/disposition/speeches/incitement/provocation etc. It is Modi who is standing for elections and not Taliban, so in the context of Indian politics, Modi will face scrutiny, criticism etc and evaluated for discharge of his constitutional duties, for which he took oath in the name of God.

>> media is ragging hindus..

Again, please go beyond the religious labels and instead condemn and support on the basis of what is right and what is wrong (regardless of religious labels/considerations etc)

Kumar
Bangalore, India
May 02, 2009 12:00 AM
104
right and wrong?

kumar for heavens sake what is wrong is calling rame sene hindu taliban (to link it with the bjp who is opposing it)and sending pink chaddis for a rare and minor pub incident, when the same critics are hiding in their ratholes (and also hiding facts about real taliban), with regard to enforced sharia noneducation of women, burkhas,polygamy,triple talaq and ban on free speech like gautier aurangzeb exhibit,stateman eds being arrested, and hence ignoring the real talibanic mindset based on facts.

And instead ragging the meek tolerant hinduism with exagerrations and brazen falsehood like hindu taliban.THIS IS WRONG.Even a kid would understand that double standards are unjust and insulting except the hindu haters like you.

hating hindus and picking on them with fake outrage that disappears for the real taliban in in the nearest mosque, is wrong.

You AND MEDIA are guilty of brazen doublestandards and are culpable of injustice against the weak laid back hindus when you do not even attempt to fake outrage at the real taliban mindset in india.WHY DIDNT YOU AND YOUR MEDIA FRIENDS send pink chaddis to that lady andriya in kashmir on valentines day or evEn to the mullahs who ban tv and serious thingslike education, let alone just one imported valentines day.

TARGETING on e group is meek knowing they are easy prey, and to the applause of the other real talibani group even to profit from this hidden agrneda aginst hindus in their own land is wrong.
it is treason,fraud and injustice agianst hindus
who are being punished for their pacifism while the violent groups are being rewrded for their aggression eg shahbano

aspi
porland, United States
May 01, 2009 12:00 AM
103
varun

there is a article and comments in dawn, karrachi
by nadeem pracha-

its very interesting.

a must for all who are interested in pakistani
muslims, and their crazy mindset.
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
May 01, 2009 12:00 AM
102
>> "The Taliban on Wednesday night demolished 11 houses of the Sikh community in the Orakzai Agency for refusing to pay ‘Jazia’."

Such Talibans should be machine-gunned and bombed. Otherwise the Pakistani Army should be forced to wear bangles and burquas.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
May 01, 2009 12:00 AM
101
Sagacious/Thiagan,

>> others do not loot, rape and kill others citing the verses.

If they loot, rape and kill without citing any verses, does that make them better? Are all hate-pracharaks retarded?
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
May 01, 2009 12:00 AM
100
faruki

there are many muslims are like these taliban. its foolish of you to keep on denying facts.

one example was when the pakistani,s attacked bombay. they were encouraged to kill american, britts, israelis and hindus.

after the killings all the civil media, govt denied that the killers were from pakistan. most of us were convinced that they were unconcerned with the crimes. crimes did not matter to them.. what mattered was that they were caught,with their pants down.

i am sure that you are aware of the violent streak in islam- and how it has been practiced since the days of mehemmet.

" what has mehemmet brought to the world except
hate and violence" pope benedict.

no one from the western capitals contradicted this. the pope has a pretty big following in
the catholic church and outside.

dont play smart and dumb. accept the reality of whats happening in terms of hate and violence
in the muslim world, all citeing the koran,

its the height of deciet and hypocracy to deny this.
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
May 01, 2009 12:00 AM
99
sagacious-faruki

it would be right to count the numbers of muslim,christian,hindus, sikhs killed in india
since 1947 in communal riots and incidents.

the question is who will do it.

faruki could provide the number of muslims killed for a start.
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
May 01, 2009 12:00 AM
98
Stopperbhai,

>> "Such Talibans should be machine-gunned and bombed"- who will do it.

It is the job of the Pakistani Army. How come you are such an utter idiot?

>> as long as you sympathise with the Jihadi goons.

Someone who lies as much as you do has to be ill-bred.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
May 01, 2009 12:00 AM
97
>> Otherwise the Pakistani Army should be forced to wear bangles and burquas.

Had a Sanghi said this, he would have been labeled an MCP and wife beater.
Al Bundy
San Francisco, United States
May 01, 2009 12:00 AM
96
01/05/09

Hussaini Obama busy appeasing jihadis and see how they respond:

"To the Muslim world,” said Barack Obama in his Inaugural Address, “we seek a new way forward, based on mutual interest and mutual respect.” After 100 days, how’s that going?

Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad summed it up best, responding contemptuously to Obama’s offer to sit down to talk without preconditions and taunting Obama for his impotence: “We say to you that you yourselves know that you are today in a position of weakness. Your hands are empty, and you can no longer promote your affairs from a position of strength.”

Ahmadinejad is also turning Obama’s campaign promise against him. When Obama indicated that he wouldn’t impose preconditions on negotiations with Iran, the Iranian saw an opening. Now, he’s apparently demanding preconditions for the talks by pressuring Obama for concessions on the Israel-Palestinian conflict."


the sagacious
Los Angeles, United States
May 01, 2009 12:00 AM
95
01/05/09

"they loot, rape and kill without citing any verses, does that make them better?"

Idiot. I have to explain every thing in detail. It is a plain and simple criminal offence, if there are no verses. If there are verses, it is religiously justified and on the glorious example of the founder, it gets scripturally mandated. That is more dangerous.
the sagacious
Los Angeles, United States
May 01, 2009 12:00 AM
94
01/05/09

"worst kind of communal stereotyping, reminiscent of aspersions ......"

Rubbish. The Book clearly maakes it obligatory to commit the actions. Deny the charge and I will quote the verses and life and conduct of the founder.
the sagacious
Los Angeles, United States
May 01, 2009 12:00 AM
93
"Neither Islam, nor Christianity nor Hinduism are exclusive or natural progenitors of democracy, but all of them can incorporate and adapt to democracy, some sooner than others."

Mullah Sufi Mohamd the Talibani Mullah says that Democracy has no place in Islam , Sharia and Nizam-e Adal.Mullah is th eperson who has brought Pakistan on its knees .Sufi has created an Islamic Whabi State hardly 450 km away from India.They are running the Talibani State with the approval of lacs of Muslims of the Sawat.

Cair Maulvi ji whom should we believe your version or the Sufi's version ?

2, "The key is to separate state from religion. That's why Muslims are having a hard time with it, but they will get there."

When after another 300 yrs ? The progress of Adal is on the increase .We should deny the reality of cruelest but real form of Sahria and dream of humanistic Islam whenever it come ? Breaking of Mazars is the true Wahbi Islam as per Sharia .Even grave sof Prophet Mohamd ,Mecca anf Hussains graves were destroyed by the Whabi Muslims 400 yrs back under Sahria-Adal .

Sardars houses in Sawat have been destroyed .Some are hostages and being tortured mercilessly to part money under jajia as stipulated in Islam .SATYA confirmed Chapter and Verse from the book regarding correctness of the levy of Jajia on non Muslims.

Should the Sardars wait for 'till the time Muslims reach there "

3. 'While they are getting there, let us hope India does not slide back!"

Are you honest ? Indian Muslims already enjoy Islamic Laws ,four wives ,Triple Talq,non rights for the women,Shabano's alimoney of Rs 700 per month is not digestable by Islam ----.Any further slide back is possible for India ??

You have been insisting that Sanghies should drop their demand of uniform Civil code .What more silde back India can do ??

Maulvi ji if you don't have the courage to speak to speak the truth at least be honest spare us your crooked Wisdoms .

And what should Sardars do till then ???
Khushi Ram
ambala cantt, India
May 01, 2009 12:00 AM
92
khushi ram

" some sooner, than others"

and muslims after 200 years,.

this was the resident maulvis own prognosis.

others have more sombre views.
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
May 01, 2009 12:00 AM
91
Yes,as the poster below said, that is so true about real fascism being incompatible with Hindus. Hindus are too warm and soft a people to possess that cold, relentless, machine like character of the European fascists. Thank goodness! There are scholars who mindlessly superimpose the European environment and character on Indians, with a view to raise hysteria about various Hindu groups. Here's a little inconvenient truth: the Nazis came into power in 1933. By 1939, the world was at war, and international pogroms had started in Poland. Various Hindu organisations have been around since the 1920's. We are now in 2009. That's a slightly long gestation period, don't you think?
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Apr 30, 2009 12:00 AM
90
Varun,

>> The anger and outrage of Hindus at the Mumbai massacre was pretty clear, in India and worldwide. Not so the Moslems.

False! But then what else can one expect from you!
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Apr 30, 2009 12:00 AM
89
Stopperbhai,

>> I have watched the news as it was breaking.

With your jaundiced eyes!

>> you were the one every time to jump to defend the local agents of the same gang.

Were you born a liar, or did you become a liar after you joined thee sangh?
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Apr 30, 2009 12:00 AM
88
faruki

your reactions in previous posts.

pope benedict -after he criticised mehemmet

xxx he is a ex nazi

winston churchill when he spoke badly of muslims

xxx he is a racist

dr sultan when she speaks against islam,.mehemmet
and the koran

xxx she is an apostate

about tavleen singh, arun shourie, swapan das
gupta,tarun vijay.

xxx they are fascists

about naipauls book-amongst the believers.

xxx he is biased

melanie philips, robert spencer

xxx haters of islam

fareed zakaria

xxx i am like him- (what rubbish)

everyone who criticises islam is a fascist according to faruki- this includes nearly most western thinkers and writers.

if there are eminent well respected writers who
are positive about islam,lets know.

if there are western political leaders who are positiuve about muslims lets know as well.

should there be known muslims writers or thinkers
in english,lets know as well.

polls about muslims in usa, canada ,australia, europe are fairly negative. explain why muslims have such a bad image.

why is pakistan faceing so many problems- socially,politically, where as budhist,hindu dominated states are better off.

any explanation.

banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
Apr 30, 2009 12:00 AM
87
Banito/Lalit,

>> pope benedict -after he criticised mehemmet. xxx he is a ex nazi. winston churchill when he spoke badly of muslims. xxx he is a racist.

These are facts about them, not explanations. When idiots like you quote them to slander Islam, I try to remind you that the people you are quoting are not saints themselves. They do not hold Hinduism in high regard either. I do not have any grudges against either the Pope or Churchill and would not mention them if you did not bring them up. Your notion that you can use their names in your stupid war against Islam just proves the fact that you are basically a hate-filled moron, and since you have no arguments of your own, you keep dropping a half dozen names out of thousands of books that have been written on Islam. Do you think such quotes cannot be produced against Hinduism or Christianity? How come you are such an utter dope?
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Apr 30, 2009 12:00 AM
86
faruki

i mentioned these names to show ,that you attack all people who criticise your stone age religion.

never mind who they are-and some of these people are well respected .

you misunderstand as usual.its important to know how little respect islam,muslims have in the world.

i have disgust for islam and most muslims, and would have this even without support from others.

why are you so upset. you know that the prevailing feeling is much against islam, mehemmet,muslims.you can not deny this.
this should make you rethink- at least accept reality.

bjp is ruleing many states, and a lot of hindus support it. you can fight us any way you like.
you will not be able to intimidate us, or get
us to change our mind,because of your foul abuse.



banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
Apr 30, 2009 12:00 AM
85
faruki

you say i have no arguments against islam.

i have dozens of such arguments and so do hundreds of authors who have written on this subject.

do you ever read books,other then the koran, and
pamphlets like the 2 circles,counter current and the milli gazette.

obviously not.

i presume you would get a fit if you read satanic verses, amongst the believers,londonistan
or watched fitna.

you are a fool to be in this forum. all that you will get is abuse, hate and insults.
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
Apr 30, 2009 12:00 AM
84
Banito/Lalit,

>> its important to know how little respect islam, muslims have in the world.

Who cares? Isn't it totally idiotic to raise such questions? Do people feel differently about their religions because of what some people say? How come you have remained such a dope in spite of your age and residence abroad?

>> you say i have no arguments against islam. i have dozens of such arguments.

Equally bad arguments can be made about other religions. Thats why people with any sense stay clear of this foolish activity. If Periyar or Ilaiah tear down Hinduism, should non-Hindus dance and quote them again and again? You don't have the slightest idea of what you are talking about.

>> i could not care 2 cents about muslim countries.

I have never doubted your idiocy, but you are a liar too! As a matter of fact you are obsessed with everything Islamic and everything Muslim. You hardly think about anything else at all. Only difference is that all you have to offer are your empty-headed sneers. Unlike most regular posters, you are just a moronic pest.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Apr 30, 2009 12:00 AM
83
>> You did not mention "seculars and world leaders seem to respond better to violence by fanatics" in the earlier post. If you had, I would have understood then itself that you took Prakash's point differently from what I did.

I have always thought that you are unable to grasp any point. Feel free to humor yourself about your capacity otherwise.

>> This is what he wrote

On 28 Apr, 2009 04:07:38AM (IST), he also wrote this
"The whole world was ringing then and leaders from all over were pacifying the muslims. I do not see anywhere near that now. "

Are you with me so far?

Then you wrote, (at 04:27:44AM (IST))

"We are talking of strong condemnation and taking them to task."

To which I responded with, that since this is not happening in this case, maybe the secular crowd shall respond better to violence, and Hindus should indulge in it.

I don't know what you understood, and what you are trying to say. As always, there is only so much time I can spend trying to educate you. Last post on this topic from me. Feel free to dissect, criticize my points in any way you want.
Al Bundy
San Francisco, United States
Apr 30, 2009 12:00 AM
82
faruki

my antimuslim responses are made to counter your idiotic claims, that islam is compatible with democracy,and that muslims have the same mindset as peace loveing liberals.

furthermore i believe that most posters support my views, and its a fact that bjp has the support
of the urban educated middle class. your supporters are people like dharma, awara, togadia. their support does neither of you any credit.

today the educated hindu middle class is tired
of the hypocritical secularists, and will i hope
elect bjp to power in as many states as possible.

despite the serious lapses in the muslim ummah
you are untireing in your efforts to defend and safegaurd their interests.

i support the bjp not just because i wish to support hindu interests,but because i am convinced that the muslims in india are on a mission which is leading them to stagnation and extremism. india has failed to influence them
to follow the path of modernism and liberalism-

therefore its pointless to count on them,in any great national enterprise. their main interest is in following their own islamic identity, and
remain isolated,just as in all western countries.

all the failures of islamic societies, ie in pakistan, afghanistan and in muslim heavy areas in india are the results of your medieval mindset. hindus must accept that we can not change your mindset.

in fact any effort to do so raises your ire.
you will be going downhill- on your own, with no
help or assistance from others.

you would see this if you had a analytic mind-which you dont.

as an enginner i am forced to follow the path of cold logic in my thinking,uneffected by religion or sentiment.if i saw any thing positive in muslim societies i would accept it without hesitation. at the moment there is none.

however think of garfield sitting on a tree,with rain falling on him-

life could be worse.
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
Apr 30, 2009 12:00 AM
81
30/04/09

"Equally bad arguments can be made about other religions."

But the others do not loot, rape and kill others citing the verses. They are not a menace to the world at large.
the sagacious
Los Angeles, United States
Apr 30, 2009 12:00 AM
80
Taliban raze houses of Sikhs in Orakzai
Thursday, 30 Apr, 2009 | 01:09 AM PST |

KOHAT: The Taliban on Wednesday night demolished 11 houses of the Sikh community in the Orakzai Agency for refusing to pay ‘Jazia’.

The action was ordered by the Tehrik-i-Taliban Pakistan chief for Orakzai Agency, Hakeemullah Mehsud, after the deadline given to the Sikh community for payment of Jazia passed on Wednesday.

SATYA DHARAM - respond
Akil
Bangalore, India
Apr 30, 2009 12:00 AM
79
Akil,

You know that spitting upward is a stupid thing
to do. But who cares? Without exchanging any
logical issue or justification people are busy
searching others' fault. They are attacking people
personally and abusing indirectly their own country
or religion with single minded determination. This
is like a sieve is mocking on a needle's hole!
dip
Dhaka, Bangladesh
Apr 30, 2009 12:00 AM
78
stopperbhai

narendra modi has erred with regards to the gujerat killings, but he has redeemed himself a deal through the devolopment of his state.

i think he should continue to lead india, and at a later state be the pm of india. this is the
opinion of senior leaders of the bjp, and senior corporate leaders like ratan tata.

i know that he is hated by the muslims and seculars, and they are justified in doing so,
from the point of harm done by modi. this is
quite natural.

however if leaders were to be judged by the yard sticks of indian muslims,then they would choose
the shahi imam of the jama masjid to be imam.
he would be assisted by people like mullah faruki- god forbid it.

today obama has stated that pakistan,s govt is
in a very fragile state,unable to provide basis services to its people.

indian muslims seem unaware of events in their
brother community, and extremely focussed on wrongs done to them. these range from serious
wrongs and petty annoyances like a book written by tasleema nasreen.

its a pity that the muslim leadership is so
innane and mindless, as can be judged by the daily comments of the resident mullah.

in a atmosphere which is hostile to muslims, the
leadership should ask what they can do for their community, rather then depending on outside
help. pakistan is a perfect example. they keep
on asking for more aid, and are most reluctant
to do what is required of themselves.

their principle concern is to veil their women so that even their toes are not seen, grow beards
and ban all fun.

jesus h christ

what a religion-what a people

banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
Apr 30, 2009 12:00 AM
77
Stopperbhai, Banito, Moslems are for the most part the kind who will riot and rampage over the mere rumour of some slight to their religion, forget an actual slight. It's happened a number of times in the subcontinent, most horrendously when a story about the reputed theft of an Islamic relic in Kashmir caused Moslems to go ape-nuts against the Hindu minority in the erstwhile East Pakistan, hundreds of miles away. It would be straining credulity to the limit to think that these Moslems are going to condemn the Mumbai massacre, yet we are actually expected by some individuals to believe that they are.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Apr 30, 2009 12:00 AM
76
Varun,

>> Moslems are for the most part the kind who will riot and rampage ...

The worst kind of communal stereotyping, reminiscent of aspersions cast on Blacks in America just 50 years ago, and on the Jews in Europe only 80 years ago. Stereotyping of Hindus, Muslims or Jews is a leftover from our darkest days, and should be a social taboo by now.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Apr 29, 2009 12:00 AM
75
SATYA DHARMA, NEW YORK
Why are you avoiding answering a direct question on JAZIA?? Answer me SATYA DHARMA,

If what you claim in your comments is correct why should the payee of Jazia "feel humiliated". The translation of QUR'AN by three different persons conclude the Jazia Verse with words amounting to "paying JAZIA in humiliation/ disgrace/ subjugation".

Ahmed Raza Khan- "they pay the tariff with their own hands with humiliation"

Yusuf Ali:"pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued".

Pickthal:"until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low".

Why is "HUMILIATION" a part of paying Jazia if what you have stated regarding JAZIA being just a TAX is factually correct??
Akil
Bangalore, India
Apr 29, 2009 12:00 AM
74
>> May Pakistan have a tragic and a painful death

For us, it won't be tragic at all. It shall be a joy and a pleasure.
Al Bundy
San Francisco, United States
Apr 29, 2009 12:00 AM
73
>> But it can be more constructive like writing articles of condemnation in papers, blogs etc and protests, questioning Islam itself

If you really believe in it, go ahead. Do so.

As for me, I believe it is as useless an exercise as lighting candles at Wagah, and hoping that Pakis shall love us. I shall just support VHP and Bajrang Dal in any way I can.
Al Bundy
San Francisco, United States
Apr 29, 2009 12:00 AM
72
Al Bundy,

>> >> But it can be more constructive like writing articles of condemnation in papers, blogs etc and protests, questioning Islam itself

>> If you really believe in it, go ahead. Do so.

I would like to add that I believe that the approach I mentioned above is actually the more destructive one to the islamist ideology. Every religion has to constantly deal with new generation of people who think about issues afresh without the decades of indoctrination/prejudices that the older generation may have gone through. By raising the issues/questioning (like treatment of non-muslims, killing apostates, armed jihad, treatment of women etc) the newer generation can look at the issues more objectively and seek a genuinely satisfying answers or else change.
Kumar
Bangalore, India
Apr 29, 2009 12:00 AM
71
>> I would like to add that I believe that the approach I mentioned above is actually the more destructive one to the islamist ideology.

I don't.

>> By raising the issues/questioning (like treatment of non-muslims, killing apostates, armed jihad, treatment of women etc) the newer generation can look at the issues more objectively and seek a genuinely satisfying answers or else change.

Raise questions by all means. This is something that should be done, even if there is little or no gain. However, the discussion was not this at all.

However, again, you are showing a unique capacity for losing the thread of discussion, and meandering all over. Here is what you had written in response to Prakash's comments about there being no equivalent response from seculars and world leaders, compared to the Danish cartoon issues (admittedly, a much smaller issue)

"The protests against Danish cartoons is by fanatics indulging in rioting and vandalism. We are not talking about that. We are talking of strong condemnation and taking them to task."

To this I responded, that the seculars and world leaders seem to respond better to violence by fanatics, and maybe Hindus should do the same, and you came back that writing articles in papers etc. is better.

Again, the issue being discussed was not challenging/reforming religion, but the differential treatment meted out by seculars to two different, yet similar issues. Let's stick to this.

You can continue to believe and pursue your actions of blogging, commenting etc. I shall rather support VHP, etc.
Al Bundy
San Francisco, United States
Apr 29, 2009 12:00 AM
70
Kumar is debating with so many posters in this forum. But who are participating with him? He has asked meaningful questions to some of our fellow posters. Alas, not a drop of water from the Autumn sky!

Kumar, I suggest you to change your target audience, so that you can build your dream land which is desired by all. Ripping of coconut is an art!!! Try it.
dip
Dhaka, Bangladesh
Apr 29, 2009 12:00 AM
69
Al Bundy,

>> you are showing a unique capacity for losing the thread of discussion, and meandering all over. Here is what you had written in response to Prakash's comments about there being no equivalent response from seculars and world leaders, compared to the Danish cartoon issues (admittedly, a much smaller issue)

I guess it is you who misunderstood the conversation with Prakash. Prakash was not talking about the secular response to Danish cartoon issue. He was talking about the muslim reaction to Danish cartoon issue, which is by protests. You can look back at the conversation. Or may be Prakash can clarify it. This is what he wrote "A lot of people wonder why muslims are not complaining enough about it, in Pakistan or elsewhere. The reason is that people who are not too much into religion (including muslims) are not as passionate about being against religion as people who are religious and talk about their religion". He further wrote "I said that people who are agnostics and atheists are not passionate in complaining against religion. However, people who love their religion are more in number and more passionate about their position. So, if a religious muslim sees an act that is against his religion, he will scream (for instance, the danish cartoons). However, if an agnostic sees an act he does not like (like Taliban beating people), he will not complain as feverishly"

So he was comparing the radical muslim reaction to Danish cartoons vis-a-vis the condemnation about Taliban deeds. So I responded with what you quoted, which is that we are not talking about rioting and vandalism, but condemnation and taking them to task. Then you responded saying there should be violence and rioting as a reaction. To which I responded that there are more constructive ways of expressing protest, which are actually more destructive to islamists. So there is no drifting of the thread of discussion, it is you who understood the conversation differently.
Kumar
Bangalore, India
Apr 29, 2009 12:00 AM
68
'a student of Trinity College and was awarded an MPhil in Development Studies in 1995."

awarey

Rahul must be 18 yrs of old in 1995.Mother and father too are M Phil from the same college.Great family with a great Bawarchi .

And what about the Sikhs in Sawat ? No comments about the harassment they are receiving at the hands of your blood brothers ? And you are trying to prove Sanghies not the killers let loose by Rajiv Gandhi killed Sikhs in 1984 ?? You have lost the minimum decency and humanity expected from a person.
Khushi Ram
ambala cantt, India
Apr 29, 2009 12:00 AM
67
Kumar,

You've certainly fired at the 'BLIND LOVE ZONE' of some of the posters. Just wait and see. If you don't get your answer you'll then understand that instead of giving their own meaningful views, some posters are using this forum to fulfill their agenda of hate, sheltering themselves behind some easy target as their shield.
dip
Dhaka, Bangladesh
Apr 29, 2009 12:00 AM
66
Al Bundy,

>> the seculars and world leaders seem to respond better to violence by fanatics, and maybe Hindus should do the same

You did not mention "seculars and world leaders seem to respond better to violence by fanatics" in the earlier post. If you had, I would have understood then itself that you took Prakash's point differently from what I did. Now, if the point is that violence is what catches attention and more effective, a first thing that can be made is that with such an idea, one ends up justifying all violent/terrorists/naxalites etc groups. (all these groups think that they have a grievance and they are expressing it through violence as they think that only violence works). Even Indian Mujahideen claims to have a grievance which no one is heeding to and they want their points to be heard through bomb blasts.
Kumar
Bangalore, India
Apr 29, 2009 12:00 AM
65
kumar

all nations and groups use all kinds of methods to get what they want. history proves this.

usa uses diplomacy and force,alternatively.

most muslims start by useing force. that is their preferred weapon.

hindus seem unable to use force. they have all kinds of inhibitions,religious and traditional.

if hindus had been like the muslims, the situation in india would be quite different-and you can imagine how.

the hindu community would ride rough shod over the interests of some of the minority communities.

there would be no missionary activities.

the babri masjid would have been demolished,and and many more mosques besides this. there would one uniform law for the whole country.stubborn
muslims would be in correctional labour camps as in china.

instead both christian missionaries and fanatic muslim organiseations like the all india personal muslim bord, the babri masjid committe, and all kinds of organiseations with arab names hold fort.

the ones who get criticised are hindu organiseations. the minorities laugh and sneer at them.

this situation has arisen because some hindus are more interested in winning the approval of muslims then in serveing the interest of the country as a whole.

muslims seem to love strong rulers- all their
countries are ruled by such.

president assad,s father killed 20,000 muslim
brotherhood guys,when the challenged him.

sadam hussain, killed hundreds of thousand of
his opponents.

president mubarak has imprisoned hordes of his fanatic muslim opponents.

india has failed to reign in these anti national and anti social elements. thats the failure of
the majority community.

what is really bizarre- we hindus have got no medals for good behaviour. we are experts at shooting ourselves in the foot.
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
Apr 29, 2009 12:00 AM
64
Banito,

>> usa uses diplomacy and force,alternatively. hindus seem unable to use force. they have all kinds of inhibitions,religious and traditional

USA is a country and like any other country (including India) can use diplomacy/force/war/military/police etc as required as part of the state duty to protect citizens. India too has used all these options and will do so in future. On the other hand "hindus" is not a state. You are mixing up issues and categories. Hinduism is not a state, it is a private religion of some people. Private religious individuals/groups should have inhibitions about taking up violence and the law into own hands.
Kumar
Bangalore, India
Apr 29, 2009 12:00 AM
63
"Hinduism is not a state, it is a private religion of some people.

These some people constitute about 20 % of the Mankind ! Some people eh ?

And they are going to be soon one of the major partiipants in the War of Cultures ! I am astonshished to the reaction of a few posters towards Sardars' plight. They are becoming rootless like Pandits .

New Islam has no place for the other Religeons !

Try to understand the new Talibani Islam has no place for the non believers.It has no respect for boundries .
a k ghai
mumbai, India
Apr 29, 2009 12:00 AM
62

Kumar and Prakash, I seem to recall that when this whole cartoon controversy was raging, posters on this forum( not yourselves) were spiritedly asserting the right of Moslems to protest the cartoons, and their equal right *not* to protest things and events that one would feel that they should protest, like terrorism against India in Kashmir and elsewhere, or violence and fundamentalism in their own community. The position of these posters was "You protest what you desire to protest, and let the Moslems protest what they want to". This was an almost tacit admission that Moslems do not protest, get angry and riot when other Moslems do something horrible; rather, they are obsessed with the 'other religion' and what persons from the other religion are saying and doing with respect to Islam and Moslems.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Apr 29, 2009 12:00 AM
61
Varun,

>> posters on this forum( not yourselves) were spiritedly asserting the right of Moslems to protest the cartoons, and their equal right *not* to protest things and events that one would feel that they should protest,

It is simple, dear Watson! In a free country people may protest what they want to protest, as long as they do it peacefully. You cannot tell them what they should or should not protest. If you want to protest something, go ahead and hold a protest yourself. Muslims cannot be expected to protest on behalf of everybody.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Apr 29, 2009 12:00 AM
60

I suppose at the base level, that's correct- the right of people to protest what they feel offended by; but then, they should also be prepared to face the social consequences of not protesting, condemning or otherwise being outraged by events like the Mumbai massacre in November 2008. And that includes the utter contempt and even loathing by the rest of the society and the world.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Apr 29, 2009 12:00 AM
59
Yeah, Paki women had some guts to protest against flogging. But what about the men living their? After the flogging protest, the miserable Pak authority claimed 'the video was fake' - a protest indeed!
dip
Dhaka, Bangladesh
Apr 29, 2009 12:00 AM
58
>> not protesting, condemning or otherwise being outraged by events like the Mumbai massacre in November 2008.

Muslims were in the forefront of Mumbai protests. Don't let your prejudices befog your glasses!
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Apr 29, 2009 12:00 AM
57
Kumar,

>>Hinduism is not a state,

Right

>>it is a private religion of some people.

Hinduism is universal like all other religions. You can accept one religion or admit others. For me, rejecting any religion sounds indecent. As anything private means 'confined to particular persons or group'; I don't agree any religion should be conceived with such limit.
dip
Dhaka, Bangladesh
Apr 29, 2009 12:00 AM
56
Varun,

>> posters on this forum( not yourselves) were spiritedly asserting the right of Moslems to protest the cartoons, and their equal right *not* to protest things and events that one would feel that they should protest, like terrorism against India in Kashmir and elsewhere, or violence and fundamentalism in their own community. The position of these posters was "You protest what you desire to protest, and let the Moslems protest what they want to".

While from a legalistic perspective, it is true that one may protest what one desires, it does give an indication of the thinking and priorities. But it can be quite complicated and many things may come into play on why certain things are not publicly protested. For example are there protest marches by marathis on what MNS/ShivSena do in the name of Marathis? It may be an interesting study to find out why.

Kumar
Bangalore, India
Apr 29, 2009 12:00 AM
55
That may be true of a few Mumbai Moslems, and all credit to them. But why were Moslems *worldwide* not smashing cars, breaking windows and flying into a rage against the Mumbai massacre? These same Moslems who fly off the handle about a cartoon thousands of miles away, can't find it in them to feel the *slightest* anger about Mumbai!
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Apr 29, 2009 12:00 AM
54
"The truth, as ever, lies in between. Militarily, the army let us down. The story of Operation Rah-i-Haq has yet to be told but when it is, ugly secrets will spill out. Were the local commanders and GHQ on the same page at all times? If there was a united will, was there a coherent strategy? Why were people defying Maulana Fazlullah abandoned? What happened last December when Pir Samiullah and his band of Barelvi fighters pleaded for help but didn’t get any and were duly slaughtered by the TTP? There is a stench that surrounds the army operation in Swat and it doesn’t just come from the piles of dead bodies."

Cyril Almeida has his finger on the pulse of the Talibans .Worth reading.


http://cyrilalmeida.com/


a k ghai
mumbai, India
Apr 29, 2009 12:00 AM
53
Varun

>> why were Moslems *worldwide* not smashing cars, breaking windows and flying into a rage against the Mumbai massacre?

Nor were Hindus! You will find one way or another to vilify Muslims. This reflects more on you than on Muslims!
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Apr 29, 2009 12:00 AM
52
Stopperbhai,

>> But to media they registered no anger or protest against the attack.

As I just said to Varun, "You will find one way or another to vilify Muslims. This reflects more on you than on Muslims!"
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Apr 29, 2009 12:00 AM
51
Yes, but Hindus are not the ones flying into a rage or putting out contract hits on people for allegedly slandering their religion. The anger and outrage of Hindus at the Mumbai massacre was pretty clear, in India and worldwide. Not so the Moslems.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Apr 28, 2009 12:00 AM
50
A lot of people wonder why muslims are not complaining enough about it, in Pakistan or elsewhere. The reason is that people who are not too much into religion (including muslims) are not as passionate about being against religion as people who are religious and talk about their religion. It does not matter which religion it is, this is across the board. For instance, you see so many people of one religion who try to mess up holy places of another religion. How often do you find atheists or agnostics do similar things. So, it is not fair to tell that Pakistanis are not complaining against this enough, the people shouting for it are louder.
Prakash
San Francisco, United States
Apr 28, 2009 12:00 AM
49
Another very disappointing article (even more disappointing than Naim's article on the subject). There is no forceful condemnation of the concept of Jizya nor is there is a forceful pitch for complete movement to secular democracy.
Kumar
Bangalore, India
Apr 28, 2009 12:00 AM
48
Prakash,

>> A lot of people wonder why muslims are not complaining enough about it, in Pakistan or elsewhere. The reason is that people who are not too much into religion (including muslims) are not as passionate about being against religion as people who are religious and talk about their religion.

I think you are very wrong on this point. You mean only religious people condemn atrocities done in the name of religion? I think all sensible people of all religions, agnostics, atheists etc should condemn the atrocities of the Taliban.
Kumar
Bangalore, India
Apr 28, 2009 12:00 AM
47
Kumar >> I think all sensible people of all religions, agnostics, atheists etc should condemn the atrocities of the Taliban.

I think that you misunderstood me. I did not say that they should not or should complain. I said that people who are agnostics and atheists are not passionate in complaining against religion. However, people who love their religion are more in number and more passionate about their position. So, if a religious muslim sees an act that is against his religion, he will scream (for instance, the danish cartoons). However, if an agnostic sees an act he does not like (like Taliban beating people), he will not complain as feverishly. That is just emotion.
Prakash
San Francisco, United States
Apr 28, 2009 12:00 AM
46
Prakash,

>> I said that people who are agnostics and atheists are not passionate in complaining against religion.

It is an issue of atrocities in the name of religion. Agnostics/Atheists have always been in the forefront of attacking such abuse/misuse of religion. That is why I do not understand what you mean. It is not just about “complaining against religion” (BTW, agnostics/atheists complain against religion itself, but much more against atrocities in the name of religion).

>> if an agnostic sees an act he does not like (like Taliban beating people), he will not complain as feverishly

I am not sure if that is the case. If the agnostic is a humanist who believes in human rights/freedom etc, he/she will certainly complain feverishly.
Kumar
Bangalore, India
Apr 28, 2009 12:00 AM
45
Kumar >> If the agnostic is a humanist who believes in human rights/freedom etc, he/she will certainly complain feverishly.

I do not think that you are right. Sure, some of them are complaining. However, I do not see anywhere near the ferocity I saw in the Danish cartoons complaints. The whole world was ringing then and leaders from all over were pacifying the muslims. I do not see anywhere near that now.
Prakash
San Francisco, United States
Apr 28, 2009 12:00 AM
44
Prakash,

>> do not see anywhere near the ferocity I saw in the Danish cartoons complaints

The protests against Danish cartoons is by fanatics indulging in rioting and vandalism. We are not talking about that. We are talking of strong condemnation and taking them to task.
Kumar
Bangalore, India
Apr 28, 2009 12:00 AM
43
>> We are talking of strong condemnation and taking them to task.

Since that is not happening, maybe Hindu fanatics should indulge in some violence and rioting.

But of course, then the seculars shall see fault only with the "Hindu fanatics". Some people like SD shall even justify it, saying that minorities are lucky to be paying Jazia.
Al Bundy
San Francisco, United States
Apr 28, 2009 12:00 AM
42
VIVEK CHATTERJEE, CALCUTTA
The relevant VERSE of Qur'an dealing with JAZIA as translated by three person are given below. Judge your comment in the light of what is given below:-

QUR'AN CHAPTER 9: AL-TAWBA (REPENTANCE)Verse 29

Ahmed Raza Khan: Mohammed Aqib Qadri:

Fight against the People given the Book(s) who do not accept faith in Allah and the Last Day, and who do not treat as forbidden what is forbidden by Allah and by His Noble Messenger, and who do not follow the true religion, until they pay the tariff with their own hands with humiliation.

Yusuf Ali:

Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

Pickthal:

Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.

Akil
Bangalore, India
Apr 28, 2009 12:00 AM
41
pakistan must act against this inhuman practice,who are these assholes to impose jaziya and harass sikhs.Sikhs are citizens and must enjoy all rights as other citizens.The UN is clear there can be no discrimination on ones faith. Chief Justice chaudhry must issue directions that such acts are stopped immediately.Pakis are behaving like renegrades having no sense of respect for human rights.Enough.
drharun
chennai, India
Apr 28, 2009 12:00 AM
40
You can call Talibans scum, barbarian, religious fanatic ....

But people are not ready to accept the reality. After gun powder, Muslims have invented most potent weapon - suicide bombing. It is more effective than America's smart bombs and missiles. Unless the civilized world adopts Changez Khan's strategy (beheading all males age 15 and over), there is little possibility of winning this war. Colonial British were more civilized, so lost to the determination of Pashtuns.
Rajesh
Phoenix, United States
Apr 28, 2009 12:00 AM
39
Actually, I am a young Hindu woman, a BJ expert. I love playing with all young boys, especially the circumsized ones. Hinduism got bad. India needs to throw out Hindus and welcome Muslims from other countries. Modi and Advani are bast%ds. They should be tied to pole and ask relatives of Obama, the black ones to violate them from behind.
Kalavati
Agra, Iceland
Apr 28, 2009 12:00 AM
38
"It is not a protection tax, but a tax to run the welfare serrvcis of the state.

Muslims pay the 'zakat' and non-Muslims pay the 'jizya' "
SATYA DHARMA


The Islamic Republic of Pakistan has now resorted to take Non Muslims as hostages to run the Country.Pray what happened to Millions of dollars being sent to the it as KHAIRAT ( doles) ?? !!!

a k ghai
mumbai, India
Apr 28, 2009 12:00 AM
37
""We are told our prayers will not be answered because Allah will not entertain non-believers,"

And who are the Non Believers the hostages or the hostage takers Talibans before Allah .And what the book says about taking hostages ?
a k ghai
mumbai, India
Apr 28, 2009 12:00 AM
36
>> Muslims pay the 'zakat' and non-Muslims pay the 'jizya'

And those who do not pay are taken as hostages, with threats to kill/rape/enslave. No wonder you seem to like it so much.
Al Bundy
San Francisco, United States
Apr 28, 2009 12:00 AM
35
SATYA DHARMA, NEW YORK UNITED STATES

Aren't you a Muslim and isn't SATYA DHARMA, the name you assume to write comments, a translation of "TRUE RELIGION" implying ISLAM. Why don't you write with your TRUE NAME?????
Akil
Bangalore, India
Apr 28, 2009 12:00 AM
34
SATYA DHARMA, NEW YORK

If what you claim is correct why should the payee of Jazia be humiliated. See the translation of QUR'AN given by me earlier.

Ahmed Raza Khan- "they pay the tariff with their own hands with humiliation"

Yusuf Ali:pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

Pickthal:until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.

Why does all three include "HUMILIATION" as part of paying Jazia??? Now do not say all translation are wrong.
Akil
Bangalore, India
Apr 28, 2009 12:00 AM
33
mr a.k.ghai

i saw a reading from the satanic verses by salman rushdie- its available on utube. it is
just about 6 minutes, and both informative and
entertaining.

i saw also salman rushdie on danish tv yesterday 28 april,in which he expressed his views on religion,islam and so forth.

rushdie is one of the few muslims who dares to see islam and muslims in the light of reality,and whats more important is courageous enough to speak up,despite the threat to his life.

my conclusion is that through generations, after being subjected to daily indoctrination right from day one,muslims are unable to question
their religion, and its edicts,however absurd
they may be.

muslims can become engineers, doctors, soldiers
or whatever. however when confronted by their
religion they are as helpless as a child before his stern nanny.

expecting islam to mutate into a benign liberal religion is one of the pipe dreams that many liberal suffer from. after all muslims have now had 1400 years to change, and now they are useing the information and knowledge of this age not in the service of makeing life better for themselves, but makeing it much worse.

one can give people a certain leeway in life,and a number of chances. muslims have had enough of both, and the results are dismal.

this is the consensus view of many thinking men in the west-

islam is not for change- we nonmuslims must accept this, and from this decide ours and not the next steps of the muslim world.

this world is devoid of thinkers,philosophers.
and if there are any then i can not see ,or hear
them.the spokemen of this pretty backward religion are guys like faruki-who behind their their veneer of westerniseation are as backward as any village mullah.

best wishes-
banitoadolfo
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
Apr 28, 2009 12:00 AM
32
"Muslims who claim that the jizya, the special tax required of non-Muslim dhimmis under Islamic law, was actually less than Zakat, the Muslim obligation of charitable giving. This is patently absurd on the face of it, of course, since innumerable respected historians (including A.S. Tritton, Maxime Rodinson, and Bat Ye'or) have noted that it was money from the dhimmis, not from Muslims, that financed the early Islamic empires; indeed, Muslims paid nothing at all into the state treasury in the days when there were large populations (i.e., in Egypt and Syria) of conquered dhimmi Christians. Rodinson even points out in his biography of Muhammad that at certain times conversions to Islam were forbidden, as they were destroying the tax base! If the jizya had really been less than zakat, human nature being what it is, we would have seen large-scale conversions of Muslims to Christianity in the great Islamic empires -- but of course we don't, because who would want to exchange the position of the dominator for that of the dominated?"
read:
http://www.jihadwatch.o...tch/archives/003260.php


The Muslims, however, are obliged but not compelled to pay Zakat, but non-muslims are compelled to pay Jizya. The refusal means persecution, death or conversion to Islam.

In India, Islamic rulers imposed Jizya starting in the 12th century by Qutbuddin Aybak. It was abolished by Akbar. However, Aurangzeb, the last prominent Mughal Emperor, levied Jizya on his mostly Hindu subjects in 1679. Reasons for this are cited to be financial demands of the empire, personal inclinations of the emperor, and petitions by the ulema. His non-muslim subjects were taxed in accordance with the property they owned. Certain historians (JN Sarkar, History of Aurangzeb) are of the view that the tax was aimed at forcibly converting Hindus to Islam.

Sikh minority community are forced to pay Jizya to live safely in Taliban controlled region of Pakistan even though Sikhs serve in Pakistani army. The militants say the Sikhs should pay Jizia in accordance with Shariah or Islamic law. It means non-muslims must pay Jizya if they want to live safely in area governed under Shariat laws regardless of their military contribution for the said Islamic countries/states.
Vijay Agarwal
Northampton, United Kingdom
Apr 28, 2009 12:00 AM
31
Baggai sahib

Pakistan was supposed to be a Model and Modern country for the Ummah.It has turned out to be the most dangerous place in the World governed with the medivial Islamic archic Laws . The final blow to it is the Jajia imposed upon Sikhs by the Talibanies.

"It was left to Ayaz Amir, the noted Pakistani Columnist, a former Pakistan Army officer and now a parliamentarian to reflect this anguish in his column “Wages of Fear and Appeasement” (The News, April 17, 2009). His anguished words which will echo in Pakistan need to be reproduced in original.

“When a state and its military forces mentally reconcile themselves to defeat, one can only mourn the event. There is nothing left to say.”
“But we are trying to put a gloss on it and are putting forward all sorts of justifications – that there was no way out and that signing the Nizam – e – Adul regulation will bring lasting peace to Swat and its environs – but in out heart of hearts we know that, our courage having fled and no vision worth the name to guide us, we have acquiesced in a great act of surrender”.
“Munich is written all over it”.
“Before India our Eastern Command laid down its arms in 1971, not its spirit or soul. Before the Taliban in Swat we have ceded a part of out national soul.”
Pakistan Army’s abject surrender of Swat sequentially crowns a long list of surrenders to the Taliban of Pakistan’s state-control of frontier regions along the Afghan border beginning with the infamous Waziristan Accords. In Swat, the Pakistan Army has surrendered to the Taliban in the hinterland too. "


http://www.southasiaana...papers32/paper3157.html
a k ghai
mumbai, India
Apr 28, 2009 12:00 AM
30
"On the roof of the National Assembly is affixed a huge disc on which, in beautiful calligraphy, are inscribed the 99 names of God. But on that afternoon when the Swat Sharia Regulation was placed before the National Assembly, hanging over that august body was less any reference to the Almighty than a pall of fear, almost visible to the eye and sensible to the touch, Taliban spokesmen not having minced their words in saying that anyone opposing the deal would take himself out of the pale of Islam. Since in Islam the punishment for apostasy is death, everyone knew what the warning implied.

But apart from fear, the National Assembly was also stricken by misjudgement. The resolution had been tabled without warning and members from the ANP (the major ruling party in the Frontier) were crying themselves hoarse that no one was paying heed to the fact that it was Pakhtoon blood being spilt in FATA and Swat. So, apart from a few dissenting voices (the MQM's Farooq Sattar giving a powerful speech), the National Assembly, closing its eyes, acquiesced in that act of surrender.

Now hardly ten days later, (affirming once again Harold Wilson's timeless dictum that a week is a long time in politics), the pendulum has swung the other way, with more and more voices criticising the Swat deal. Behind this sudden change of heart lie two stark events.

Firstly, Maulana Sufi Muhammad's declaration at a well-attended public meeting in Mingora that democracy and higher courts lay outside the circle of Islam. This has had a devastating effect on all those prepared to give the benefit of the doubt to the erratic patron saint of the mayhem in Swat.

Secondly, the Taliban's advance from Swat into the adjoining district of Buner. One of the illusions fostered by the Swat deal was that the Taliban would be content with what they had gained and not try further adventures. The seizure of Buner -- not very far from Islamabad, as every pundit has been at pains to emphasise -- has underscored the foolishness of this thinking.

All the warnings coming from here and abroad that the Taliban were on the march were falling on deaf ears. Much of Pakistan was in a state of denial. But the Maulana's rhetoric and Buner, both happening in quick succession, have hit public opinion like a bombshell. All at once Pakistan has woken up to the Taliban danger, the state of denial transformed almost overnight into a state of alarm.

For this we must be thankful to Maulana Sufi Muhammad. He has shaken our minds and helped us to concentrate. What was vague and confusing before is now almost blindingly clear. What seemed distant has been brought closer home. Jinnah's Pakistan--or rather the mess we have made of it over the years--is not only shrinking but is in mortal peril. Serious-minded people talk candidly of the prospects of the further breakup of Pakistan. For alerting us to this danger, the bishop of Swat deserves our thanks.

The turmoil in Swat thus could be Pakistan's salvation provided, for a change, we get serious. That Pakistan is in danger should not be a matter of any further doubt. Balochistan is angry and alienated; FATA outside any notion of federal control. Even Punjab, once thought secure, is beginning to sense the approaching storm.

Add to this the weakness of the political leadership, and the army's scarcely encouraging performance in FATA and Swat, and we have the ingredients of full-fledged despair."
a k ghai
mumbai, India
Apr 28, 2009 12:00 AM
29


http://www.thenews.com....al_detail.asp?id=173978


" Like the rest of the nation, the army too is bewildered and confused and after its reverses in FATA and Swat not a little demoralized. It also needs a direction and an over-arching strategy. But for this it is necessary that the vision of our political leadership should be superior to the army's . If we begin from the premise that the army's notions about many things are flawed, the critique makes sense only if someone can present a better alternative.

But for any headway in FATA and Swat, the political leadership and the army (which must work in tandem) need no distraction in Balochistan. The army is engaged on multiple fronts which takes away its focus from the threat posed by the Taliban. The disaffection of the Baloch people must therefore be addressed--and for this we need a grand initiative from the federal government--if we are to move forward elsewhere.

We should have had the good sense to make someone from Balochistan, some respected figure like Sardar Attaullah Mengal, president of the republic to begin assuaging Baloch grievances. Talk of opportunities squandered, we squandered this one too. All the same, we have to look to the anger of the Baloch if Pakistan is to be saved.

Yes, the Americans are a problem and, stuck in Afghanistan, they have their own axes to grind. True also that more often than not we give the impression of being a plaything in their hands, serving their interests more than our own. But this can be corrected and we can be masters of our own fate if we set the direction of our national compass right.

The stakes couldn't be higher. We shake ourselves and take matters in hand. Or we allow the present drift to continue, in which case we could do worse than study the fate of Yugoslavia. "


The Pakistanies have failed to keep their country intact even in the name of Islam !



a k ghai
mumbai, India
Apr 28, 2009 12:00 AM
28
he.he..

**********
Yes, jizya ia a fact. Compared to 'zakat' which is obligatory on Muslims and 2.5 per cent on the net income, 'jizya' is no more than 1/365 th or roughly one day earnings in a year.
*********

I'm amazed that Muslims have the gall to repeat the same BS from Quran/Hadiths even now.. This is part of the economic pressure applied to make non Muslims convert to Islam. Not just jaziya there are many such economic tools.

********
Moreever any Muslim can be called upon to serve in the army and to follow the call is obligatory, but the non-Muslims are exempt from compulsory military duty.
************

Even British kept the Indians from getting trained on heavy weapons and prevented them from occupying leadership positions and air force was restricted until the demands of 2nd world war forced them to allow Indians

It is pure military strategy to not allow non-Muslims to get a military training so that they can not oppose Muslims in a Muslim state.

In Israel, Jews are mandated to undergo military training whereas the Muslims are probably unwelcome.
Selvan
Boston, United States
Apr 28, 2009 12:00 AM
27
28/04/09

It is unsurprising. The wiser ones appreciates one another. Read:

"The greatest level of sympathy towards Israel can be found in India, according to international study on behalf of the Foreign Ministry, Yedioth Ahronoth reported Friday.

According to the study, which was unprecedented in scope and was undertaken by an international market research company, 58% of Indian respondents showed sympathy to the Jewish State. The United States came in second, with 56% of American respondents sympathizing with Israel."


http://www.ynetnews.com...,7340,L-3696887,00.html


The study was undertaken as part of the "Branding Israel" project and aimed at looking into Israel's international stature at what researchers characterized as the world's 13 most important countries, including the US, Canada, Britain, France, China, and Russia. A total of 5,215 people took part in the study.



the sagacious
Los Angeles, United States
Apr 28, 2009 12:00 AM
26
Rs 100 million doesn't sound like 1/365th of the annual earnings of a community. Even taking the reduced figure of Rs 12 million, for 50 families, that works out to 2.4 lakh per family, if that is one day's earning for one family in the Swat region, then there's no need for the beggar state of Porkistan to prostitute itself in donor conferences across the world. People like Satya Dharma should do some simple math calculations before posting idiotic comments. And this seems to be a standard practice in the Islamic world, whine and whine about discrimination and unfair laws when you are in a minority but oppress and harass others when in a majority. Would you accept a discriminatory tax levied on all the Muslims of India because they happen to live in a Hindu majority country?
Shubhang
New Delhi, India
Apr 28, 2009 12:00 AM
25
>>"Sikh families remain in the custody of Taliban"

The govt of india should demand that pak govt should arrange for the safe return of all the sikh families back to punjab in india. If they cant do it, the indian airforce can land a segment of our sikh regiment in the orakzai taliban area. they will free the sikhs for being transported back to india, finish off a good part of taliban-militia also, before they return. The pak govt may thank us for the help.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Apr 28, 2009 12:00 AM
24
Satya Dharma,

>> .. the non-Muslims are exempt from compulsory military duty.
>> It is not a protection tax, but a tax to run the welfare serrvcis of the state. Muslims pay the 'zakat' and non-Muslims pay the 'jizya'

Why it has to be different for Muslims and non-muslims? The state should assert the rights/justice/freedom/security of all people (regardless of race/religion etc) and all are equal citizens before the state with equal responsibilities/duties etc, including military duty - unless of course you are talking about the "military duty" of armed jihad by muslim armies attacking the nations to establish a “muslim state”, where it of course makes no sense for a non-muslim to be part of such “muslim armies”. People of all religions/races should have equal opportunity to grow as political heads, army chiefs etc (why should non-muslims be “exempt” from being a military chief for example, as it happens in India, where people of various religions occupied high ranks in military). If there is a difference on religious/racial lines it should be called a racist/communal state. (BTW, what is the Quranic/Hadith reference to calculate the amount of jizya?)

Kumar
Bangalore, India
Apr 28, 2009 12:00 AM
23
SATYA DHARMA, NEW YORK The relevant VERSE of
QUR'AN which deals with Jazia- CHAPTER 9: AL-TAWBA (REPENTANCE)Verse 29

Ahmed Raza Khan: Mohammed Aqib Qadri:
Fight against the People given the Book(s) who do not accept faith in Allah and the Last Day, and who do not treat as forbidden what is forbidden by Allah and by His Noble Messenger, and who do not follow the true religion, until they pay the tariff with their own hands with humiliation.

Yusuf Ali:
Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

Pickthal:
Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.

If what you claim is correct why should the payee of Jazia be humiliated. See the last part of translation of QUR'AN above.

Ahmed Raza Khan- "they pay the tariff with their own hands with humiliation"

Yusuf Ali:"pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued".

Pickthal:"until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low".

Why does "HUMILIATION" a part of paying Jazia???
Akil
Bangalore, India
Apr 28, 2009 12:00 AM
22
Al Bundy,

>> >> We are talking of strong condemnation and taking them to task.

>> Since that is not happening, maybe Hindu fanatics should indulge in some violence and rioting.

But it can be more constructive like writing articles of condemnation in papers, blogs etc and protests, questioning Islam itself (if one may choose to do so), bringing pressure on the government etc rather then violence and rioting.

Kumar
Bangalore, India
Apr 28, 2009 12:00 AM
21
"hat Pakistan is in danger should not be a matter of any further doubt. Balochistan is angry and alienated; FATA outside any notion of federal control. Even Punjab, once thought secure, is beginning to sense the approaching storm. "

The formula to cut India thro' a thousand cuts is working very well. May Pakistan have a tragic and a painful death.
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Apr 28, 2009 12:00 AM
20
Satya Dhara,

A simple question for you. Which is better? A Secular democracy with the concept of equal citizenship or a islamic state that esssentially sees citizens as "muslims" and "non-muslims"?
Kumar
Bangalore, India
Apr 28, 2009 12:00 AM
19
Satya Dharma, sorry, I mis-spelt your name in my previous post.
Kumar
Bangalore, India
Apr 28, 2009 12:00 AM
18
Nice whitewashing of the religious tax, Satya Dharma. Why pay a tax for non-belief at all, and shouldn't everyone in equal circumstances be paying the same kind of taxes?
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Apr 28, 2009 12:00 AM
17
Here's a better solution, Satya Dharma. Let Moslems not invade and conquer other people's lands, and subject them to either jizya or non-jizya. After all, Hindus, Buddhists and Sikhs don't do it.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Apr 28, 2009 12:00 AM
16
We can also expect some yahoos in India to raise the subject of Muthalik, to bring in an equivalence with the horrible goings-on mentioned in this article. After all, according to these types, Muthalik desires to round up all single women in bars, abuse them for 10 days like the Sikhs in Waziristan were abused, then force them to capitulate by paying a tax, or change their ways. And Muthalik can then defend the tax by claiming it is levied in lieu of what..military service, dancing girl service, prostitution service? Equal-equal again!
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Apr 28, 2009 12:00 AM
15
Satya Dharma,

>> In today's world, non-Muslim citizens living in Muslim countries perform military service and protect their nations. Therefore, it is not obligatory on them to pay jizyah.

Can you extrapolate the above point to conclude that the concept of a "islamic state" is not longer relevant? And that there should be no such a thing as "muslim country" or "hindu country" or a "christian country" etc (unless the term is used merely to indicate the majority religion of a country) and that all citizens of all religions/races etc should be equal subjects of the state (as is the case in a secular democracy)?
Kumar
Bangalore, India
Apr 28, 2009 12:00 AM
14
" the concept of a "islamic state" is not longer relevant? And that there should be no such a thing as "muslim country" or "hindu country" or a "christian country" etc "

There are 65 Islamic Nations in the World. No Hindu State.No country caals itself as Christian state .

Kumar you are always going overboard to dilute the crimes of the Talibanies. Learn from Satya he says Jajia is to be paid by the non believers in an Islamic State -this is as per their Religeon .

Nothing wrong in that .Skhs must pay Jajia as it was their mistake to stay in Pakistan which was meant for exclusively for the Muslims of India.At the first instant Sikhs were not supposed to stay there.If Islam wants protection Money from non Muslims they must pay.

Khushi Ram
ambala cantt, India
Apr 28, 2009 12:00 AM
13
Answer me SATYA DHARMA, NEW YORK

The extensive comment by you is to divert attention from my specific question.

If what you claim in your comments are correct is correct why should the payee of Jazia be "humiliated". The translation of QUR'AN by three different persons conclude the Jazia Verse with "humiliating the payee of Jazia".

Ahmed Raza Khan- "they pay the tariff with their own hands with humiliation"

Yusuf Ali:"pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued".

Pickthal:"until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low".

Why is "HUMILIATION" a part of paying Jazia if what you have stated if factually correct??
Akil
Bangalore, India
Apr 28, 2009 12:00 AM
12
Khushi Ram,

>> >> the concept of a "islamic state" is not longer relevant? And that there should be no such a thing as "muslim country" or "hindu country" or a "christian country" etc

>> There are 65 Islamic Nations in the World. No Hindu State.No country caals itself as Christian state. Kumar you are always going overboard to dilute the crimes of the Talibanies..

I have not diluted anything. Satya Dhrama has made a point explaining that Jizya is not relevant in today’s context. I was just asking if he can extrapolate the idea to argue that the idea of an Islamic state itself should not relevant anymore. I know that there are several Islamic states while there are no hindu/christian/buddhist/sikh etc states.

Kumar
Bangalore, India
Apr 28, 2009 12:00 AM
11
SATYA DHARMA, NEW YORK


SATYA DHARMA, True Religion- Islam, you can NOT fool people anymore with your long drawn out comments. In the era of "internet" just GOOGLE "jazia" OR "quran" and the facts are displayed instantly. At the least have the decency of revealing your name rather than hiding behind a pseudo name which sounds HINDU.
Akil
Bangalore, India
Apr 28, 2009 12:00 AM
10
" I was just asking if he can extrapolate the idea to argue that the idea of an Islamic state itself should not relevant anymore."

Kumar

The problem is not Jajia and Islam .Islam is specific about levy of Jajia.Hence Satya rightly asks for levy of Jajia.The problem are the Sikhs and other minorities who stayed in Pakistan.Once the Partition took place and Muslims were given their choosen lands then question of minorities clinging to land of their birth was not correct.
Whatever the problems India ,Pakistan and Bangladesh are facing now have arisen due to the incomplete and stunted Partition process.Muslims are crying discremination in India and non acceptance of them as equal citizens so are Hindus and and other minorities are saying in Pakistan.I am against the Partition in the first place and if it did take place then the process should have not been stunted.Rest are emotional gibberish like Anwar's expalnations on the issue.

If any body has any other logical explanation is welcome ?
Khushi Ram
ambala cantt, India
Apr 28, 2009 12:00 AM
9
The Islam is exclusive,it has no place for any other faith,to hell with such a faith
aditya chopra
chandigarh, India
Apr 27, 2009 12:00 AM
8
F....ng ba.....s living off others - may they burn in Hell
Azeem Taqi
Nashville, United States
Apr 27, 2009 12:00 AM
7
These Talibanis must be the lowest scums on Earth to have collected jazia from Sikhs to let them live freely. It is due to the Talibanic interpretation of Islam that Muslims are facing hardships everywhere. They have lent a bad name to Islam.
Vivek Chatterjee
Calcutta, India
Apr 27, 2009 12:00 AM
6
chatterjee.

the taliban are following the teachings of islam.
you are the fool, who claims that they are not
following islam.

the entire paki society has made not one protest.

you bongos are commies, promuslim and idiots at
the same time.
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
Apr 27, 2009 12:00 AM
5
Understandably Indian Media is silent on this Islamic imposition of tax on non muslims as it may be classifies as 'hateful speech' by election commission and may invoke NSA by plenty of CMs. But justifications are found for silence by local majority in this case, same courtesy is never extended to Gujarati Hindus or Marathis in mumbai and they are demonised beyond measure. I wish all our barakha dutts and rajdep sardesais should be air dropped in NWFP
anshul
indore, india
Apr 26, 2009 12:00 AM
4
Protecting the minorities and eradicating discrimination is among the top responsibilities of a state. This by itself should be sufficient reason for the Pakistani government to assert itself in NWFP, militarily if need be. But the Talibans are a threat not only to the minorities but also to moderate Muslims living in NWFP. Leaving them to the mercies of the Taliban means that the state has ceased to function.

Making distinctions between zakaat taxes for Muslims and jazia taxes for non-Muslims is repugnant in this day and age. They must have the same tax code for all citizens.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Apr 26, 2009 12:00 AM
3
faruki

no muslims in pakistan,afghanistan, saudi arabia have any concern for nonmuslims.

they are barbarians-and islam has given them the green light to mistreat minorities.. they quote the korann, and have the support of the clerics.
judges, govt,civil society does not care.

all the people in liberal countries know this,
and its written in the press, and shown on tv.

you must be blind and deaf not to know this-
and damn stupid as well.

whom do you think you can decieve with your lies.

furtherone polls show that 50 percent of westerners view islam badly- and this is no secret. you dont convince anyone by denying this.

just false pride.

you dont convince anyone-

banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
Apr 26, 2009 12:00 AM
2
This is abominable and anti Islam.Pakistan is degenerating day by day and tragically that is being done in the name of religion feeding the anti Muslim brigade with ammunition.Muslims and all right thinking people must raise their voice against this atrocity.The rest of Pakistanis have a big role to play in this and they should raise now.
nasar
Raleigh, USA
Apr 25, 2009 12:00 AM
1
Quantitatively, Taliban killed less non-muslims than Jinnah in Pakistan. Why ?
Because there ar'nt any left :) haha
ANBanerjee
Newcastle, United Kingdom
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