Pakistan
Islamic 'Adl In Orakzai
The Nizam-e-Adl [Justice] Regulation was signed on April 15, formally enforcing what some call sharia laws in Swat. The same day came the news of the Sikh community living in Orakzai Agency being asked to pay jizia by the Taliban...
The Daily Times, Lahore, of April 15 carried the following as reported by Abdul Saboor Khan:

"Sikh families leave Orakzai after Taliban demand jizia

"HANGU: Sikh families living in Orakzai Agency have left the agency after the Taliban demanded Rs 50 million as jizia (tax) from them, official sources and locals said on Tuesday.

"Residents of Ferozekhel area in Lower Orakzai Agency told Daily Times on Tuesday that around 10 Sikh families left the agency after the demand by the Taliban, who said they were a minority and liable to pay the tax for living in the area in accordance with sharia.

"Locals said the Taliban had notified the Sikh families about the 'tax' around a week ago. They said of the 15 Sikh families in Ferozekhel, 10 had shifted while the remaining were preparing to do so.

"The locals said the families were impoverished and had left the area to avoid any Taliban action."

The following day, April 16, appeared another report by the same correspondent:

"Sikhs in Orakzai pay Rs 20 million jizia to Taliban

"HANGU: The Sikh community living in Orakzai Agency on Wednesday conceded to Taliban demand to pay them jizia – tax levied on non-Muslims living under Islamic rule – and paid Rs 20 million to Taliban in return for 'protection'.

"Officials told Daily Times that the Taliban also released Sikh leader Sardar Saiwang Singh and vacated the community's houses after the Sikhs accepted the Taliban demand.

"The officials said the Taliban announced that the Sikhs were now free to live anywhere in the agency.

"They also announced protection for the Sikh community, saying that no one would harm them after they paid jizia. Sikhs who had left the agency would now return to their houses and resume their business in the agency, the officials said."

A week has passed, but I have not seen any comment on the above in the three Urdu newspapers from Pakistan that I fairly regularly check: Jang, Nawa-i-Waqt, and Daily Express. And if the Daily Times or Dawn carried an editorial on the plight of the smallest and most powerless group of Pakistani citizens, I must have missed it. Here I must note that while Jang failed to carry the news about the Pakistani Sikhs, it twice reported on the special arrangements made for security and hospitality for the Sikh pilgrims from India.

The Pakistani lawyers who took to the streets to bring back an independent judiciary might not have read the news, busy as they must be with important matters, for none issued even a statement of regret or sympathy. As for the newly established 'independent judiciary,' personified by the Supreme Court of Pakistan and its Chief Justice—it took notice, suo motu, of the case of the whipping of a married woman and then only the other day declared that the penalty for 'blasphemy' should be death in the Islamic nation—it too preferred to ignore the Sikhs. The nation's President and Prime Minister, of course, saw nothing wrong in what the Taliban had done—the two now co-share authority—and made not the slightest noise. Of course the guardians of Islam's honour in Pakistan, the muftis and maulanas, made not the slightest protest. Most likely they saw in the incident just one more triumph of their vision of Islam's glory in Pakistan. If anything, they showed remarkable restraint when they didn't make a public celebration of it, as they had done when President Zardari's father-in-law had the Ahmadis declared non-Muslim. Who knows but the mullahs might be planning secretly to demand that the same shari'a should now be enforced on the equally helpless and minute population of Hindus in Sindh.

What surprises me, however, is that none of the maulanas and muftis made an issue of the exact amount of money when so many avenues of argumentation were open to them. Was the amount extorted from the Sikhs right according to all the major schools of Islamic jurisprudence? Wasn't it less? Wasn't it more? Shouldn't the amount be equivalent to the value of a certain weight in gold? And what about the requirement, according to many jurists, that the dhimmis must additionally be publicly humiliated and made to display some distinct marker to separate them from the pure and virtuous? Shouldn't the dhimmis be disbarred from riding a motorbike now, and limited only to riding a bicycle? So many valid questions of fiqh [Islamic jurisprudence] were available to the reverends for the purpose of displaying their brilliance. Further, the newspaper report does not indicate if a similar payment would be demanded again next year. Perhaps not, but then is it valid under shari'ah to extort jizia in a lump sum? Are not the Talibans guilty of a bid'ah [sinful innovation] in this instance? Surely a few fatwas are needed to settle that issue?

Another question that the newspaper report left in the dark is: have the champions of shari'ah simultaneously levied an 'ushr on local Muslims? Not to do so, while collecting jizia from non-Muslims would be an affront to Islamic 'adl that so many opinion columns and editorials have recently praised. It would amount to one more bid'ah, to say the least.

Since the maulanas and muftis of Pakistan have seemingly failed to do a proper job of establishing shari'ah with all its ramifications in Orakzai, I urge the Pakistani Supreme Court to take notice, suo motu, and make sure the Taliban also levied an 'ushr on all local Muslims, including themselves. The learned court only recently decided that the penalty for 'blasphemy' in Pakistan should indeed be death; it should, therefore, have no trouble deciding what punishment should be meted out in such grave cases of bid'ah. Islamic 'adl demands nothing less.

 
Daily Mail
COLLAPSE COMMENTS :
HAVE YOUR SAY
May 29, 2009 12:00 AM
87
Khushi Ram,

>> only the terrorists, anti-nationals and Pak-Bangla infiltrators are entitled to fundamental and human rights?

Everyone is entitled to human rights, and those who violate the human rights, (like extremists/terrorists etc) have to be punished in proportion to their degree of violation.
Kumar
Bangalore, India
May 29, 2009 12:00 AM
86
"""Is it because for some sections in India, only the terrorists, anti-nationals and Pak-Bangla infiltrators are entitled to fundamental and human rights? """
Khushi Ram
ambala cantt, India
May 29, 2009 12:00 AM
85
IV :"In Pakistan and Bangladesh, Hindus have only the right to suffer and right to silence. Shockingly, the tragedy of Hindus of Pakistan and Bangladesh remains untold by Indian main stream media.

India’s callous inaction regarding the pathetic plight of Pak-Bangla Hindus is disgusting. Killing of Hindus in Pakistan, in Bangladesh or even in India is not taken seriously by main stream media, by government or by various political parties or by human rights industry in India.

Is it because for some sections in India, only the terrorists, anti-nationals and Pak-Bangla infiltrators are entitled to fundamental and human rights?

Will India ever act to save Hindus in Pakistan and Bangladesh?

(The author is the former Chief Commissioner of Income Tax. His E-mail address is: jgarora@gmail.com)


Khushi Ram
ambala cantt, India
May 29, 2009 12:00 AM
84
III : "Kidnappings and killings
Even during the last few months, thousands of Hindus have been forced to flee Pakistan, and take shelter in India.

Increasing incidents of kidnappings, robberies and forcible conversion have rattled Hindu community in Pakistan and Bangladesh. Those unable to pay the ransom are just killed. Hindu film maker Satish Anand’s kidnapping in Karachi and recent release after payment of a huge ransom is just one of such countless examples.

In April, 2009 Sikhs in Karzai in Pakistan were targeted to pay fifty million rupees as Jazia, the tax levied on non-Muslims. As the victims could not pay the said Jazia, their houses were looted and destroyed.

Discrimination and dispossession
Discrimination against Hindus is a fact of life as also a fact of law in Pakistan and Bangladesh.

As per Constitution of Pakistan, only a Muslim can be the President or Prime Minister of Pakistan. As per Bangladeshi Constitution too, only a Muslim can be the head of the state.

The Vested Property Act was passed in 1965 as “Enemy Property Act” in Pakistan. This law legitimised confiscation of Hindu property. After emergence of Bangladesh in 1971, this Act was renamed as the Vested Property Act in Bangladesh, and the state was made the owner of the Hindus’ property. This Act has legitimised the forfeiture of millions of acres of ancestral Hindu lands. And Hindu lands and properties are being taken over by the government (under the Vested Property Act) to be distributed among Muslims.

Way out
In 1950, Prime Ministers of India and Pakistan signed an agreement called the Nehru Liaqat Pact under which both the governments undertook to protect life, liberty, religion and safety of the minorities in each other’s country. ""

But the government in India is doing nothing in the ongoing genocide and deprivation of Hindus in Pakistan and Bangladesh.

It is the Indian government’s legal and moral duty to ensure that as per the Nehru-Liaqat Pact of 1950, and as per the United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Pakistan and Bangladesh treat their minorities in a human manner. India must also ask Bangladesh to repeal the Vested Properties Act, and restore the lands and properties of Hindus to Hindus.

The United Nations Commission on Human Rights must also be approached to redeem the situation. Denial of human rights to Hindus violates UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights, 1948. "
Khushi Ram
ambala cantt, India
May 29, 2009 12:00 AM
83
II : "As per Dr. Sabyasachi Ghosh-Dastidar’s book, Empire’s last casualty: Indian subcontinent’s vanishing Hindu and other minorities, over three million Hindus have been killed in the process of Islamisation in the area now known as Bangladesh (formerly East Pakistan) since India was Partitioned in 1947. This loss of three million lives remain suppressed from the world.

Even now, Hindus are facing genocide, terror, persecution, dishonour and atrocities in Bangladesh every day. And there is selective killing of Hindu judges, professionals, teachers, lawyers and civil servants in Bangladesh to smash Hindu resistance.

Human rights organisations like Amnesty International are silent spectators of this blatant ethnic cleansing of millions of Hindus.

Forcible conversions and marriages
The alarming trend of Muslims kidnapping young Hindu girls and forcibly marrying them to Muslims is tormenting Hindus in Pakistan and Bangladesh.

Though Pak-Bangla media may occasionally report such atrocities, main stream media in India remains silent in this regard. To illustrate the dismal situation, just one such example is given here. It was reported in Pakistan’s premier English daily ‘The Dawn’ dated November 3, 2005 that 19 Hindu girls mostly from Punjab Colony, Karachi were missing from their homes. Relatives of these girls believed that they had been kidnapped and were being forced to change their religion, the press release added.

Columnist Irfan Husain’s write up entitled “Conversion Losses” published in The Dawn dated December 3, 2005 relates the tragedy of Hindu parents in Karachi whose three young daughters Reena, Usha and Rima of marriageable age vanished in October, 2005. In a few days, the shocked parents received a courier package containing three identical affidavits from their daughters stating that they had converted to Islam and, therefore, could not live with their Hindu parents. And father of the girls just wailed, “We just sit and stare at each other. For us, life is over.”

And this hopeless situation can be the fate of any Hindu parent in Pakistan and Bangladesh. " cntd

Khushi Ram
ambala cantt, India
May 29, 2009 12:00 AM
82
"Helpless Hindus of Pakistan and Bangladesh
By JG Arora

It is tragic that though Sanatan Dharma, commonly known as Hinduism, proclaims universal brotherhood and oneness of humanity, and addresses entire humanity as divine children (Shrunvantu vishve amrutasya putraha - Rig Veda: 10-13-1), most of the Hindus have either been killed or converted or driven out from Pakistan and Bangladesh which used to be Hindu lands. And those Hindus who are still left in Pakistan and Bangladesh are being treated with disdain and discrimination; and are being denied even the basic human rights.

Genocide and persecution
Only a few centuries ago, Hindu religion and culture used to reverberate from Afghanistan to Indonesia. Indian sub-continent including the present day India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Nepal, Afghanistan and even Zabol in Iran was Hindu land, and had no Muslim presence till Muhammad bin Qasim’s Arab army attacked Sindh in 711. After repeated invasions, Hindus lost the present day Afghanistan to Muslims in 987. And the areas now known as Pakistan and Bangladesh were lost to Muslims in 1947.

Pakistan comprised of two segments: East Pakistan and West Pakistan. In 1971, East Pakistan became Bangladesh, a separate country. Both Pakistan and Bangladesh have been declared as Islamic republics.

Hindus have always been threatened and discriminated against in Pakistan and Bangladesh on religious grounds. Though in 1947, Hindus accounted for 24 per cent of the present day Pakistan’s population, now the numbers less than two per cent. Situation is equally grave in Bangladesh where Hindus numbered 31 per cent in 1947, but now number nine per cent. Most of the Hindus / Sikhs have either been driven out, or have been killed or forcibly converted in Pakistan and Bangladesh. However, in India, the present percentage of Muslim population is much higher than that was in 1947.

Pakistan and Bangladesh have never explained what they have done to their Hindu population.

Hindus suffer constant threats to their lives, security and property in Pak-Bangla lands. Many Hindu temples have been desecrated and destroyed in Pakistan and Bangladesh. There are regular reports of illegal encroachments on Hindu temples and lands, looting of Hindu property, discrimination, persecution, molestation and abduction of Hindu girls both in Pakistan and Bangladesh.

During 1970 and 1971, Hindus in East Pakistan (present Bangladesh) underwent massive massacres by the Pakistani army and its collaborators. Over two million Hindus are reported to have been killed in East Pakistan during 1970 and 1971 leading to Indo-Pak war in 1971. Besides, countless Hindu women were dishonoured and kidnapped during this period. " cntd
Khushi Ram
ambala cantt, India
May 02, 2009 12:00 AM
81
This refers to 'History's Hostage'. Let it be clear that Taliban is not following any religious duty by imposing Jizya on hapless Sikhs. It is extortion by thugs. And it is not new to so called Islamic (Sharia) governments. Ibne Kasir writes, and Maulana Maududi quotes, that the administrators of Hajjaj Bin Yusuf (Viceroy of Iraq, paternal uncle and father-in-law of Muhammad Bin Qasim) wrote to him that large number of people (zimmis or non-muslims) converting to Islam was leading to reduction in the collection of Jizya. Hajjaj reacted by issueing orders that such converts should be thrown out of the city and be made to pay Jiziya as in the past. When this order was being implemented and as the lots of just converted Muslims were being pushed out of Basra and Kufa, they wailed and shouted “Ya Muhammad, Ya Muhammad” having no clue as to where to go and plead against this oppression by the Khalifa. And when these new Mulisms wailed and cried, ulema and theologians of the city also wailed with them. When complaints of new Mulsims converts being made to pay Jazia reached the governor of Khurasan, Aljarrah Bin Abdullah Al Hakmi, he openly said, “One person of my community is dear to me more than a hundred persons of the other community ” (Note: By community, he did not mean Muslims).

CM Naim (Outlook Web, 23 April,'Islamic Adl in Orakzai') wonders why there is no reaction from the Pakistani religious scholars against this atrocity. It is in such facts where the complete apathetic silence of Pakistani clergymen and ruling class lies. Most of them have been taught to glorify people like Hajjaj Bin Yusuf. Islam was the most convient tool in the hands of tyrnical Muslim rulers in the past. Islam is now a convient tool in the hands of Taliban and Al-Qaida.
Nafay Kumail
New Delhi, India
Apr 29, 2009 12:00 AM
80
Banito/Lalit,

>> normal danes,europeans and american make such arguments.

Your tunnel vision sees only what your sick mind wants to see. Your posts exhibit a very immature and highly prejudiced world view. You are stuck at a very juvenile level of name calling, ill wishing, and "holier-than-thou" attitudinising that would make any grown-up person ashamed of himself. You however seem to have no capacity to be ashamed. You live in a fool's paradise!
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Apr 29, 2009 12:00 AM
79
faruki

normal danes,europeans and american make such arguments. ofcource you will trivialise them.

it would be shameful for you to accept these views.

most people who fight muslims have to use the most extreme measures in the end ie israel, russians, serbs,greeks, americans etc.

a brutal separation once and for all in 1947 would have saved us decades of pointless debates with you.

i dont like you, and i dont give a damn what you
feel. we hindus should look after our own interests as muslims do theirs.

we have gotten nothing from muslims except trouble and aggravations.

we would be much better off without you,and you without us.

open minded people like salman rushdie, fareed zakaria, mr cowasjee from dawn share my view points on muslims.

a crazy irrational community,which is emotionally super charged and incapable of rayional thought
'good bye
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
Apr 29, 2009 12:00 AM
78
Banito/Lalit,

>> my ideas are brutally frank and honest.

Your ideas are simplistic, moronic and full of raw hatred.

>> do you know that indians-mostly nonmuslims- are much more respected then pakistani,s mostly muslims.

I can understand school children making such arguments, but what adult with normal intelligence would make such an argument?
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Apr 29, 2009 12:00 AM
77
faruki

my ideas are brutally frank and honest, and are the opinion of most hindus, except for the secular minority amongst hindus.

its time you realised that most middle class hindus are fed up of muslims. we look at them as
non performers, and lagging behind in every way.

further more we consider their life style, and
mindset to be repugnant. salman rushdie said the same. how can 50 percent of the human race live in sacks,was his comment about women wearing burqas.

similar opinions have been expressed by danes picked up on a random basis in copenhagen.

dont kid yourself. dont believe for a moment that you have the approval of other communities.

in the modern world swinging away, you have
isolated yourself from the vibrant life style of
the other communities.

its absurd cant you see-

ofcource no one would complain if you lived by yourselves in dreary dismal pakistan, bending and bowing 5 times a day ,and flogging teen age
girls for some tiny misdemenour in between as
a form of perverted pleasure.
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
Apr 29, 2009 12:00 AM
76
Prakash,

>> The effect of education is usually to temper/moderate the impact of hate.

I agree with you. But good education and bigotry can co-exist. Education is only one of the variables impinging on the issue, but I agree with you that it is an imprtant one.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Apr 29, 2009 12:00 AM
75
Banito/Lalit,

>> all remarks made to you are reflected like a tennis ball hitting a wall. its absurd.

All I am doing is to show how absurd and stupid your arguments are.

>> i and everyone has one opinion about muslims.

You and Sagacious, maybe! Most people detest bigots like you.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Apr 29, 2009 12:00 AM
74
faruki

all remarks made to you are reflected like a tennis ball hitting a wall.

its absurd.

if the taliban are bad then so are hindu bigots,in this case about 20 people in all.

you lack common sense, and a sense of proportion.

as always you compare an apple to a orchard.

why is it that most muslims lack a sense of rationality. thats your basic flaw,and it leads you to think and act in the most crazy manner.

the muslims who do think rationally are usually nonreligious and probably agnostics.

the ones who are true to islam have to stop thinking, stop asking questions, and live with a closed mind.

by the way why do muslims get so upset if one asks questions about mehemmet and his wives, concubines and slaves. these are legit questions.

questions have been asked about christs private life, the story about his resurrection has been questioned .ofcource this is possible because modern christians are a civilised lot-not like you guys.
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
Apr 29, 2009 12:00 AM
73
A lot of people do not understand the effect of education and democracy. At no time did I imply that any educated person is less hateful than an uneducated one. The effect of education is usually to temper/moderate the impact of hate. With education, one is supposed to look at the world and try to understand it. This does make one more tolerant. However, this does not work in all cases. There are always cases where an uneducated man might be tolerant one and the educated one less so. However, on an average, the moderation does set in. This is the case with democracy too, if a group of people do not get what they want, they can use their voting power and get someone who will get them what they want (within the powers of constitution). This is the reason that it is more reasonable than a dictatorship. Usually, there are few revolutions in a democracy, except in extreme situations. Obviously, it does not work in all cases and depends on the maturity of the country. So, it is a catch-22 situation. India as a country needs to be moderate and self critical. There is too much emphasis on religion in our country, this is making us less understanding.
Prakash
San Francisco, United States
Apr 29, 2009 12:00 AM
72
Anwar,

You are comparing likes of Tarun Vijay with Mohammad Atta. What are similarities between these 2 ? At worst, Tarun Vijay can be on the other end of Bidwais and Arundhatis.
Maha
NJ, United States
Apr 29, 2009 12:00 AM
71
Khushi Ram/Minu,

>> ..... Anwar are very very agitate dabout Gujrat,Modi ,a few Drinking Girl Bashers but alas hey gave some lip sympathy to Singhs being aske dto pay Zazia in Sawat to Talibans.

Liar, did you read what I said on the subject? How come you are such an idiot, and lie constantly?

Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Apr 29, 2009 12:00 AM
70
Banito/Lalit,

>> education has nothing to do with the mindset of muslims.

Nor of Hindus! Some of the most backward bigots and hate-spewers like yourself, Sagacious, Seshadri, Col.Purohit, Togadia and Tarun Vijay are also well educated. One cannot depend on schooling alone in order to get a well-rounded education, although it helps.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Apr 29, 2009 12:00 AM
69
prakash

education has nothing to do with the mindset of muslims. the 14 terrorists who crashed into the
wtc centre etc were all professionals.the ones
who were behind the many terror attacks all over india were educated.

muslims from kerala have formed the indian muslim league. kerala has been used as a training ground by muslim terrorists.

fanatic muslims in huge numbers attack people
like tasleema nasreen, demonstrate again rushdie
etc. i have a strong feeling that these people
would give a rouseing welcome to an invadeing
pakistani army.

indian muslims are a mirror image of the pakistani,s. by your logic we could also invite millions of them into india, and act in an examplary secular manner.

i can understand if people say that we have to live togather, because they are here in india, and have no where to go.

but lets not be naive. muslims are a nation within a nation, with a dogmatic mindset, and
we must realise this for the welfare of india.

being secular, democratic and liberal does not
mean being naive or stupid.

many years ago i stated within closed circles that the increaseing numbers of muslims in denmark would become a serious problem. the naive liberals laughed it off.

today muslims are a huge problem, socially, economically and in every possible way.

the liberal indian has not just tried to be friendly with muslims in india. they have also
tried to be friendly with pakistan. you can see
the results of all of this sentimental gibberish.

banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
Apr 29, 2009 12:00 AM
68
Prakash:"Adi, you seem to imply from your comments that having Jizya saves the non-muslims from the higher taxes of the muslims and from army service. "

I don't know how you came up with the above conclusion - I said ABSOLUTELY nothing about army service, taxes or rights. I simply said that Mr.Naim's comments do seem to address the "doctrinal" aspect since you said they didn't.
I have been away from Outlook forums for a few years now, so you would not know my position on women's rights and minority rights. So, to be clear, I do not support religious doctrines dictating government policy, period.
Adi
XXXXX, USA
Apr 29, 2009 12:00 AM
67
BANITOADOLFO - I think that you need to be more reasonable in your comments. India is a secular country. It has minorities from different religions - muslims, christians, sikhs, buddhists, jains, zoroastrians, jews etc. Some of them have done stellar contribution to the country and must be treated fairly. We do not have to compare ourselves with Pakistan. We need to be an honorable country and be able to get along with each other. Our country is over 60 years old and our people must learn to get along with each other, that is the sign of maturity. I know that a lot of people complain about the muslims. You need to look deeper into this, the muslims in Kerala and Tamil Nadu have a higher literacy and are doing well, their growth rate is also low. Sure, a lot of them are not, typically UP, that is due to poverty and illiteracy. Given the right leaders and chances, they would not be that way. You must look deeper into the reasons for the problems. We do not wish to compete with Pakistan over everything, we are a different country and must establish our own metrics for a successful country.
Prakash
San Francisco, United States
Apr 29, 2009 12:00 AM
66
prakash

let muslims decide in their countries.

nonmuslims who live there are a unlucky lot.

can one live with people like dharma, awara, and
togadia.even pigs would dread this .

the best would be muslims on one side of the border and nonmuslims on the other side. this
will mean peace, no quarelling, and no stupid
and pointless discussions.

if muslims can demand their own states in pakistan, kashmir etc then hindus can do the same.it seems to me to be quite fair.

pakistan without nonmuslims should also mean india without muslims. its absolutely faultless
logic.

on paper this seems fine. practically its very improbable. indian muslims have no where to go.
they have over 60 years increased in population from 30 million to 160 millions.

imagine this is a threatened minority of 160 millions, equal in size to the muslims in pakistan.

whereas nonmuslims pay jizia in pakistan, and have no rights, muslims are offered special rights by the secular govt in the centre in delhi.

its a mad mad world.
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
Apr 29, 2009 12:00 AM
65
Adi, you seem to imply from your comments that having Jizya saves the non-muslims from the higher taxes of the muslims and from army service. There are other sides to it that you must understand. First is that non-muslims can infer from this that they are not trusted for army service in that country. That is wrong, all people of a country must be given equal consideration. By the same context, women can be told that their being at home saves them from a lot of issues that men face at work, army etc. Try telling this to any women and see what they say. In fact, women are allowed into military academy in India now. They do not want specialized treatment, they want to be treated equally. This is the way minorities feel too. The minorities in any country are the same as the others and must be treated that way, for better or for worse.
Prakash
San Francisco, United States
Apr 28, 2009 12:00 AM
64
V_C:>>"ask for fair and transparent trials in each every instance of violence"

also in the case of rajiv's murder. why has vincent been retained as sonia's private secretary, when he failed to convey maragastam's warniing to rajiv, to save him from going to sreeperumpudoor on that fateful day. someone who lost a relative on rajiv blast can ask supreme court that sonia, vincent should be investigated on rajiv murder. someone in bjp can then say sonia should resign as cong president!
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Apr 28, 2009 12:00 AM
63
Vivek chatterjee:>>"Hinduism is on its last legs".

The fact that you are posting with a typical bengali hindu bramhin name denies your statement.
Hinduism will be really dead only if you change your name to 'avivek haterji', meaning ignorant hater of hindus. viveka-cooDaamani is a famous hindu philo work in the Sankara school of advaita phiosophy. It is somewhat irritating to see some with name close to vivekananda talking in terms of the communized moneymakers of the catholic church of bengal and china. I am sure that vishnu as varuna must be having plans to wash the likes of you into the bay of bengal very soon.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Apr 28, 2009 12:00 AM
62
Adi,

>> On the contrary, I think Mr. Naim is saying that the current instance of imposing of Jizya is "bid'ah" [sinful innovation] (whatever that means) and that an 'ushr (some kind of tax?) should be levied on the "believers" if it were all "doctrinal" and proper.

Mr. Naim’s article is certainly disapproving of what the Taliban did, but he is merely taunting the Taliban for their various misses in understanding/implementing the Jizya concept. He is still a fence sitter in many ways - there is no all out attack on the whole concept of Jizya and there is no all out support for secular democracy.

>> Should this article not be sent to Dawn or some other Pakistani magazine for publication?

The article, the way it is written will have very little impact, I would think. The Taliban surely must be aware that they are not careful about the details like the exact amount to collected for Jizya etc, but they just made use the concept of collecting Jizya from non-muslims and they are not too worried about the details. The article is merely pointing out the inaccuracies (apart from wondering why the Lawyers etc are silent). There is no forceful pitch favoring secular democracy.
Kumar
Bangalore, India
Apr 28, 2009 12:00 AM
61
"Had srilankan Tamils converted themselves to either buddhism or christianity in the past, they would not have been facing this genocide"

Had you converted to commonsense in the past, you would not be a dumbass donkey.
Adi
XXXXX, USA
Apr 28, 2009 12:00 AM
60
Aviveki Chutterjee: "silly Hindu practices such as daubbing vermilion on the forehead, drinking cow urine or not going for circumcision"

I don't know any Hindus that "drinking cow urine" - that could be a Bengali/Communist pastime.

"or not going for circumcision" - I think it is silly to chop off a piece of your own pecker and I think all sane people would agree.

"daubbing vermilion on the forehead, " I know Catholics that dab ashes on their forehead and Muslims who carry a piece of brick to bang their head against 5 times a day. I prefer putting some color on the face - at least it looks better.
Adi
XXXXX, USA
Apr 28, 2009 12:00 AM
59
Stopperbhai: "as the country does not belong to them and they only went there as laborers by the Britishers"

Your assumption. The fact is that the Sri Lankan Tamils were born and brought up in there. It also does not give Sri Lanka to discriminate and undermine a people that are born in Sri Lanka. The problem started when Sri Lankans began rampant discrimination against Tamils and it ultimately led to the horrors of LTTE. There are two parties to any dispute - remember.

"How we feel when the Kashmiri Muslims in India demand a separate status."

Let's not get mixed up in unrelated issues here - the problem in Kashmir has different dynamics with external agencies actively encouraging a group to reject India. With the SL Tamils on the other hand, the problem started when the SL majority began systematic discrimination against Tamils who were born and raised in SL and were a part of the mainstream society.
Adi
XXXXX, USA
Apr 28, 2009 12:00 AM
58
Kumar: "He has not provided any ideological/logical/religious/doctrinal tools for a moderate Muslim to ideologically counter the Taliban on the concept of Jizya."

On the contrary, I think Mr. Naim is saying that the current instance of imposing of Jizya is "bid'ah" [sinful innovation] (whatever that means) and that an 'ushr (some kind of tax?) should be levied on the "believers" if it were all "doctrinal" and proper. I don't think "moderate" Muslims would be looking to counter anything. They are content to ignore at best and abet the fundamentalists at worst from what we know.

Mr. Naim obviously has the Indian liberal reader in mind for this article. It does not seem to be addressed to the average Pakistani. Should this article not be sent to Dawn or some other Pakistani magazine for publication?
Adi
XXXXX, USA
Apr 27, 2009 12:00 AM
57
Mr. Naim has criticized the imposing of Jizya on Sikhs, which is a good thing, but he has not contributed to solving the problem nor is he forceful enough in his attack. He would have made a positive contribution if he explains why everyone including Muslims should support secular democracy and why things like Jizya should be completely thrown out from human civilization. He has not provided any ideological/logical/religious/doctrinal tools for a moderate Muslim to ideologically counter the Taliban on the concept of Jizya.
Kumar
Bangalore, India
Apr 27, 2009 12:00 AM
56
"If you intend to be fair: ask for fair and transparent trials in each every instance of violence be it Gujarat, Orissa or elsewhere ."
VIVEK CHATTERJEE

Ok I ask for transarent trials for :

1.Kandmal 2}.25000 Muslims kille din Lalu Raj 3.Mulana killings of Muslims on Eid day in a Masjid while in Namaz 4.For the killings of Muslims in Delhi during emergency 5 For the killings of Pandits 6.For 1lac Muslims killed in Congress Rule.6.For Muradabsd Riots as Muslims were to b etaught a lesson so that they don't desert Congress

Chuterji are you with me ? Need more transparent ones ?

Khushi Ram
ambala cantt, India
Apr 27, 2009 12:00 AM
55
chutterjee

we hindus enjoy grilling minorities over open fires.

we loikes it- bongo.

now run,and dont trip over your dhoti.
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
Apr 27, 2009 12:00 AM
54
Had srilankan Tamils converted themselves to either buddhism or christianity in the past, they would not have been facing this genocide. Why should i take mud and wear on my fore head. India is an open toilet (thanks to your great civilization) and every where fecus and mud are mixed. If Bharathiy is desiring let him wear it or even eat the mud.>>Perian

This piece is absolutely brilliantly written by you. Hinduism is on its last legs, rather powder kegs. Whenever a Hindu migrates to US or any European country, he switches to another faith. In India, it is due to peer pressure that he is unable to change his faith, even though in the back of his mind, he may be highly critical of the silly Hindu practices such as daubbing vermilion on the forehead, drinking cow urine or not going for circumcision. Lol, they even ridicule those get circumcised, calling him 'katwa'or some other epithets. Hinduism is a bs faith and one need to abandon it if one is in his right senses. Regarding the Tamil conflict, I will only say that only the Tamil diaspora is to blame for whatever bloodshed is happening. Sri Lankans have armed themselves with good weapons this time and the LTTE seemingly seems to be getting finished off, much to the dismay of its sympathisers such as Karuna and Vaiko.
Vivek Chatterjee
Calcutta, India
Apr 27, 2009 12:00 AM
53
Poor man can't even give Justice to the Sikhs for the 1984 ! Even CBI directly reporting to PMO is hoodwinking him.
KHUSHI RAM

The BJP is no friend of the Sikhs. It may be that Sikhs prefer it over Congress because of the Operation Bluestar. It was Congress's mifortune(so to say)that it was in power when Bhindranwale and other terrorists occupied the Amritsar Gurudwara and it had to resort to force to vacate it. What the Sikhs had to bear in 1984 riots is what has been the inevitable fate of almost every minority group in India. Muslims were massacred at the hands of Hindus time and again since independence. Graham Staines was incinerated with his entire family for proselytizing Xtianity in Orissa. Khandmahal is a recent epitome of what happens to the minorities time and again:systematic carnage. You need not lay undue emphasis on the 1984 riots. If you intend to be fair: ask for fair and transparent trials in each every instance of violence be it Gujarat, Orissa or elsewhere .
Vivek Chatterjee
Calcutta, India
Apr 27, 2009 12:00 AM
52
And what Manmohan the Sardar Prime Ministe rof India did for the Sikhs caught up in Sawat ?? Poor man can't even give Justice to the Sikhs for the 1984 ! Even CBI directly reporting to PMO is hoodwinking him.
Khushi Ram
ambala cantt, India
Apr 27, 2009 12:00 AM
51
Whereas the Secus and Maulvies like Anwar are very very agitate dabout Gujrat,Modi ,a few Drinking Girl Bashers but alas hey gave some lip sympathy to Singhs being aske dto pay Zazia in Sawat to Talibans.

AND OUR MOHAN AWAREY WHO CLAIMS TO BE SON OF A SIKH HAZOORI RAGGI- DID ANY BODY READ A LINE FROM HIM CONDMNING THE TALIBANS AND FIGHTING CAUSE OF THE SIKHS ?? How a Babar Khalas stuck in Lahore can criticse Talibans !!! The bombers of the AI Canada flight !

Khushi Ram
ambala cantt, India
Apr 27, 2009 12:00 AM
50
>>Talibans are withdrawing form Buner today (Apr 25).

Apr 26: Taliban still in Buner despite deal to withdraw.

dip
Dhaka, Bangladesh
Apr 26, 2009 12:00 AM
49
One of the few good ones from Naim.I agree with him totally on his condemnation of this despicable act.
nasar
Raleigh, USA
Apr 25, 2009 12:00 AM
48
LBMN,

>> A muslim soldier in Indian army will face the same problem , if asked to fight a fellow muslim soldier from pakistan.

While it is true as Anwar pointed out, that Muslim soldiers in the Indian Army have fought bravely in wars with Pakistan, complacency is not good either. There is a lot of continued effort of indoctrination by the likes of Taliban and Islmaists to see muslims as a unit or a muslim army fighting the “injustices” on muslims etc. There is a lot in the Islamist literature from the earliest times in Islamic history, centered on the theme of "Muslim armies" and it is very easy for the taliban/islamists to exploit it to the hilt. It is very important that the Islamic scholars/clerics/laymen work with urgency to come to the consensus on secular democracy before it is too late. The moderates today do not have the ideological/intellectual/logical tools to counter the taliban/islamists. It is therefore not surprising that the Pakistani lawyers and Iftikar Chaudhury being silent spectators on the issue of Sikhs imposed Jiziya or death penalty for blasphemy etc (as AP has earlier commented). The sense of urgency is often not seen which is a cause of concern.
Kumar
Bangalore, India
Apr 25, 2009 12:00 AM
47
LBMN,

>> >> Those who believe/proclaim/act on it open up themselves for legitimate action against them (for example a govt. can legitimately crack down on the Taliban for demanding Jizya from Sikhs)

>> "islamic" republics or "islamic" kingdom claim they run based on the holy book, How will such a government go against what is written in their holy book ?


Pakistan Govt. has not taken such a stand with the Taliban. But regardless, the "a govt" in my statement actually applies not just to Pakistan Govt. but even an external intervention. I think even an external intervention is legitimate/justified if there are gross violations. Of course the external intervention will have to weigh the seriousness, other implications of intervention etc.

Kumar
Bangalore, India
Apr 25, 2009 12:00 AM
46
Indonesia’s Voters Retreat From Radical Islam,

In the world’s most populous Muslim nation, in parliamentary elections this month, voters punished Islamic parties that focused narrowly on religious issues, and even the parties’ best efforts to appeal to the country’s mainstream failed to sway the public.

While Indonesia has a long tradition of moderation, it was badly destabilized with the end of military rule in 1998, which gave rise to Islamist politicians who preached righteousness and to some hard-core elements, who practiced violence. The country has only recently achieved a measure of stability.

Although final results from the election on April 9 will not be announced until next month, partial official results and exit polls by several independent companies indicate that Indonesians overwhelmingly backed the country’s major secular parties, even though more of them are continuing to turn to Islam in their private lives.

“People in general do not feel that there should be an integration of faith and politics,” said Azyumardi Azra, director of the graduate school at Syarif Hidayatullah State Islamic University. “Even though more and more Muslims, in particular women, have become more Islamic and have a growing attachment to Islam, that does not translate into voting behavior.”
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Apr 25, 2009 12:00 AM
45
>> A muslim soldier in Indian army will face the same problem.

Muslim soldiers in the Indian Army have fought bravely in wars with Pakistan. Pakistani soldiers, many of whom are from rural and religious backgrounds, may have problems killing Talibans, who are their own countrymen, and who are known for their hyper-religiosity.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Apr 25, 2009 12:00 AM
44
>>for example a govt. can legitimately crack down on the Taliban for demanding Jizya from Sikhs)

"islamic" republics or "islamic" kingdom claim they run based on the holy book, How will such a government go against what is written in their holy book ? (e.g. - UAE no allowing temples or churches in theri teritory )
lookout bug me not
mumbai, India
Apr 25, 2009 12:00 AM
43
>>The unwillingness of the Pakistani soldiers to fight with fellow Muslims, who pray five times a day and fast the whole month of Ramazan, is a major problem,

If as the succulars say , Pakistani society is as good or as bad as Indian one, A muslim soldier in Indian army will face the same problem , if asked to fight a fellow muslim soldier from pakistan.
lookout bug me not
mumbai, India
Apr 25, 2009 12:00 AM
42
Anwar Patel,

I heartily pray for your victory. I don't want to be a winner in this issue that'll mug the beauty from this subcontinent.

Anyway I'm reading now some awful and ominous predictions made by Hillary Clinton on Pakistan's ongoing turmoil. She wants to be a happy loser too, I'm sure.
dip
Dhaka, Bangladesh
Apr 25, 2009 12:00 AM
41
"So we have to leave it as a matter of ongoing religious debate. Coming to current context, people have to be judged on what they actually believe/do today."

Kumar

Debates must go on Jajia .Meanwhile Talibans are 40 minutes away from Islamabad today .

After how many days we will read that Talibans are now 40 minutes away from Vahaga Border ?

Meanwhile merrily continue preaching to bad Talibans and patting the good Talibans.But remember that both good and bad ones have AK-56s which fire too .
a k ghai
mumbai, India
Apr 25, 2009 12:00 AM
40
25/04/09

"You are a pathological liar."

The pea brained idiot. Can not you read the comment? I said : Equality for all, subject to conditions of reciprocity. You are dump, deaf and blind; for better comprehension avoid reading the Book.
the sagacious
Los Angeles, United States
Apr 25, 2009 12:00 AM
39
faruki

perhaps the americans or israeli,s should just nuke the taliban. the whole world would be better of without them-

i know this must hurt you. they are your muslim brothers, never mind that they are monsters.

you love them.

we hate the bastards.

thats the difference between you and us,includeing americans. imagine you are liveing in a country which is bombing and killing your buddies.

how would you explain this to the brothers.
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
Apr 25, 2009 12:00 AM
38
faruki

muslims in india should be treated in the same way that minorities are treated in pakistan.

whats wrong with this.

what you want is that we should be nice to you, whilst you are rotten to us. that may be a lesson from the bible, but not from the korann.
you have some cheek.

even the pope has complained of your double standards.
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
Apr 25, 2009 12:00 AM
37
Dip,

>> I predicted precisely what would be the consequence when US was looking for moderate Talibans and Zardari was re-inking his pen for that historic signature approving Swat development.

You are claiming victory too soon. There will be back-and-forths in this war over the next two or three years. The Talibans are withdrawing form Buner today.

When Americans talk about moderate Talibans, they are not talking of clean shaven men and burqua-less women. They are talking of those Talibans who are not as interested in waging a war with the Americans as the hard-core Talibans who are closely allied with Al-Qaeda. The assumption is based on Iraqi experience of allying with Sunni groups who were not closely tied to Al Qaeda. The assumption is that the Talibans are not a monolthic group.

The unwillingness of the Pakistani soldiers to fight with fellow Muslims, who pray five times a day and fast the whole month of Ramazan, is a major problem, but it can only slow the process down, and the generals will have to overcome it. Massing of Pakistani troops on the Indian border is another problem. They should redeploy to the Western front. In the final analysis, it seems that the Americans are not going to let a nuclear power fall to extremists. Stay tuned!
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Apr 25, 2009 12:00 AM
36
Sagacious/Thiagan,

>> My policy is always: equality for all.

You are a pathological liar. You have repeatedly said that Indian Muslims must be penalized for what minorities have suffered in Muslim countries. You have also said that all Muslims who stayed in India after partition should have been killed, and that Muslims in Britain should be dealt with by a Hitler.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Apr 24, 2009 12:00 AM
35
LBMN,

>> What if they come to a general consensus that jizya is right & is the noble way forward , as prescribed in their book & nobody can challenge the book?

Those who believe/proclaim/act on it open up themselves for legitimate action against them (for example a govt. can legitimately crack down on the Taliban for demanding Jizya from Sikhs) and also open up themselves for harsh condemnation of their religion (which the younger generation living in secular democracies living in internet age, will find it very difficult to justify their faith in the religion. This itself is a motivation for many to do something about these objectionable doctrines)
Kumar
Bangalore, India
Apr 24, 2009 12:00 AM
34
LBMN,

>> Succulars do not think twice before blaming hinduism for caste system & dowry , but when it comes to similar practices say in Islam, it should be blamed on individuals?

There are people who are convinced that things like Jiziya, killing of apostates, lower status to women, armed Jihad etc are sanctioned in Islam and on that basis, they criticize Islam. That is a legitimate criticism too, if the person shows some reasons why they are sanctioned in Islam. A mulsim can respond by showing that they are not sanctioned in Islam or by saying that they are sanctioned and that they are right things to do. This applies to all religions (including the case of example of caste system)
Kumar
Bangalore, India
Apr 24, 2009 12:00 AM
33
>> Have you seen that principle at work , anywhere here ?

No. Which is why I think the seculars are slimeballs.
Al Bundy
San Francisco, United States
Apr 24, 2009 12:00 AM
32
>>However, it is very important that there is a general consensus among muslims that extracting Jizya is wrong

What if they come to a general consensus that jizya is right & is the noble way forward , as prescribed in their book & nobody can challenge the book?
lookout bug me not
mumbai, India
Apr 24, 2009 12:00 AM
31
>>Religions can certainly be criticized, and Kumar has openly supported this. However, such actions need to be visited on people, instead of the religion itself.

Have you seen that principle at work , anywhere here ? Succulars do not think twice before blaming hinduism for caste system & dowry , but when it comes to similar practices say in Islam, it should be blamed on individuals?
lookout bug me not
mumbai, India
Apr 24, 2009 12:00 AM
30
To add to what I said: I won’t criticize muslims who do not believe in Jizya. (even if I am personally convinced that Jizya is sanctioned in Islam). However, it is very important that there is a general consensus among muslims that extracting Jizya is wrong. Our actions/discussions/debates etc should attempt to bring about that. For example, influential muslim personalities/scholars/actors etc should be encouraged to strongly and publicly condemn the extraction of Jizya from Sikhs by Taliban.
Kumar
Bangalore, India
Apr 24, 2009 12:00 AM
29
LBMN,

>> What you said is that , even if it is proved 100% that jiziya is sanctioned by Islam , you will blame the people who are enforcing that as bad human beings & will not criticise teh religion , which sanctions it

If I criticize jiziya and if jiziya is proved to be sanctioned in Islam, that amounts to criticism of Islam. But I won’t criticize is muslims who do not believe in Jizya.
Kumar
Bangalore, India
Apr 24, 2009 12:00 AM
28
>> That is called dhimmitude

I hate to say this, but on this, I have to agree with Kumar, and disagree with you.

Religions can certainly be criticized, and Kumar has openly supported this. However, such actions need to be visited on people, instead of the religion itself.

To make an analogy, Hinduism can certainly be criticized for the principles behind caste system. However, those who practice it deserve the blame, rather than the religion itself.
Al Bundy
San Francisco, United States
Apr 24, 2009 12:00 AM
27
I predicted precisely what would be the consequence when US was looking for moderate Talibans and Zardari was re-inking his pen for that historic signature approving Swat development. But frankly speaking, I could not imagine that the sweep would be that fast, increasing the MRP of Laddus!

Only two guys were confused on my prediction and argued - 'wait & see'. Anwar Patel was one of them. The other one who's now appearing a bit less smarter than the Talibans is B. H. Obama!

Yes, we can.
dip
Dhaka, Bangladesh
Apr 24, 2009 12:00 AM
26
>> The Pakistani lawyers who took to the streets

Forget the Paki slimeballs. They are good for nothing anyway, and shall soon hopefully die in large numbers fighting each other.

But, what about our political parties? Why are they silent? The "Akali Dal", speaking on behalf of Sikhs, the anti-Muslim BJP or the large crowd that is tagged secular, and supposedly speaks up for minorities. Why not a peep out of any of them?
Al Bundy
San Francisco, United States
Apr 24, 2009 12:00 AM
25
Kumar , here is the full transcript

">> You want to say Jazia in Islam is sanctioned by bad Muslims and not by the Religeon itself ?

I would say that people extracting Jizyah are bad human beings. I will stand by this statement, even if it is 100% proved beyond any doubt that it is what Islam sanctions. "

What you said is that , even if it is proved 100% that jiziya is sanctioned by Islam , you will blame the people who are enforcing that as bad human beings & will not criticise teh religion , which sanctions it.

That is called dhimmitude .
lookout bug me not
mumbai, India
Apr 24, 2009 12:00 AM
24
LBMN,

>> >> I would say that people extracting Jizyah are bad human beings. I will stand by this statement, even if it is 100% proved beyond any doubt that it is what Islam sanctions.

>> A distilled dhimmi, who will never see anything wrong in Islam, even if it is proved beyond doubt!

If I say that extracting Jizyah is inhuman/bad and that I will stand by the statement even if it is proved that it is sanctioned in Islam, what does that imply? Does it imply that I "see anything wrong in Islam, even if it is proved beyond doubt"? It implies the opposite of what you are suggesting.
Kumar
Bangalore, India
Apr 24, 2009 12:00 AM
23
>>I will stand by this statement, even if it is 100% proved beyond any doubt that it is what Islam sanctions.

A distilled dhimmi, who will never see anything wrong in Islam, even if it is proved beyond doubt!
lookout bug me not
mumbai, India
Apr 24, 2009 12:00 AM
22
24/04/09

"That would not be the case if people like you or Sagacious came to power."

Rubbish. My policy is always: equality for all,, with the condition of reciprocity and appeasement of none. Your policy would be: Supermacism for the followers and death for the infidels. Ha!Ha!!Ha!!!

the sagacious
Los Angeles, United States
Apr 24, 2009 12:00 AM
21
faruki

despite the dislike, contempt that muslims face, they still prefer some nonmuslims countries to their own.

most nonmuslims stay in muslim countries out of dire necessity- the exception are the gulf states.

most danes had little experience of muslims til
the last 20 years. dureing this time they have gotten thoroughly disliked. a danish priest
now a member of parliament has said that islam was a curse over europe. berlusconi called islam a backward religion.opposition against them is from both the right and the left of the political
spectrum in europe.

i consider that islam is incompatible with democracy,secularism and human values. proof of
this is emergeing from pakistan. lawyers, judges, clerics ,the army, civil society, politicians are quiet in the face of the advanceing march of the taliban. there are
reasons why this is happening.

however we can not convince you of our views, and neither can you convince us of your views.

in the end indian muslims however much we saffron hindus dislike, disapprove of them are a reality which can not be wished away.

the same situation prevails in many european countries.however these countries have fewer muslims. they have no mulayam singhs, laloo prasads or pm,s like mms.the countries have enormous resources.

so whereas they can take the strain of unwelcome outsiders, india is in a different situation.

the politics of the country have been desableised. secularism with rogues like laloo
prasad and mulayam singh bask in the glory of secularism whereas the bjp despite its nationalist ideals is demonised.

its bizarre.its laughable.and whats worse ,there is nothing that the saffron front can do about it.

most of the members of my family have settled down in the west. wild horses will not bring them back to the secular paradise of india.
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
Apr 24, 2009 12:00 AM
20
Khushi Ram,

>> You want to say Jazia in Islam is sanctioned by bad Muslims and not by the Religeon itself ?

I would say that people extracting Jizyah are bad human beings. I will stand by this statement, even if it is 100% proved beyond any doubt that it is what Islam sanctions.

>> Do you want to say Talibans are not following the the Islam as per the Book ?

This is what I said a few days back: "There are various views about "holy book" and "prophet" etc. The "prophets" are not available today to testify what they exactly mean, under what context etc, and which interpretation of which scholar is correct. So we have to leave it as a matter of ongoing religious debate. Coming to current context, people have to be judged on what they actually believe/do today."
Kumar
Bangalore, India
Apr 24, 2009 12:00 AM
19
"Why don’t you characterize the "war" as between dharma/good versus adharma/evil? After all, there are both good people and bad people in all religions "

Babu we are talking of Zazai on sikhs and history of Islam .You want to say Jazia in Islam is sanctioned by bad Muslims and not by the Religeon itself ?
Do you want to say Talibans are not following the the Islam as per the Book ?

We are talking of War of Civilisations not your confused pro-Islam philosphy .
Khushi Ram
ambala cantt, India
Apr 24, 2009 12:00 AM
18
Khushi Ram,

>> We are fighting the War of Cultures -Islam verses Christianity,Judaism and Hinduism on other side.

Why don’t you characterize the "war" as between dharma/good versus adharma/evil? After all, there are both good people and bad people in all religions. On the other hand, you are free to criticize Islam (without necessarily implying that all muslims are bad or that all non-muslims are good – both of which are wrong). May be an all out communal war is more "thrilling" for your taste, but the issue is far more serious than a personal thrill.

Kumar
Bangalore, India
Apr 24, 2009 12:00 AM
17
"Taliban step into Shangla as Buner showdown looms

* FC deployed to protect govt installations
* Officials, Taliban discuss how to govern Buner
* 2 escorting policemen killed in attack on FC convoy

By Ghulam Farooq

MINGORA: Eight Frontier Constabulary platoons rushed to Buner on Thursday to protect vital state installations in the northwestern town now virtually under Taliban control, while the Taliban entered the adjacent Shangla district in another brazen move.

Local residents and police in Poran tehsil of Shangla said around 30 armed Taliban arrived in the town on Thursday morning. “They entered the tehsil in cars and are still in the area,” a police official said.

Governing Buner: The march on Shangla came after the district administration recognised Taliban’s control over Buner district by holding a jirga with a local commander to lay down procedures to govern the district.

“We will not display weapons in public, and we will stay away from undue interference in the district administration,” Taliban commanders Mufti Bashir and Ustad Yasir told the jirga which local administration officials and jirga elders attended.

Attack on FC convoy: But moments after the Taliban pledged to stay peaceful, a convoy of Frontier Constabulary was attacked in the Totalai area. Two escorting police officers were killed and another was wounded.

No group has claimed responsibility so far, but the Taliban are being suspected.

In a second attack, armedmen robbed a truck carrying supplies for the security forces in Baboo area in Khawazakhela tehsil and abducted three soldiers, local residents said.

However, there was no official confirmation.

At the jirga earlier on Thursday, the Taliban agreed to pardon some of those who had taken up arms against them, but kept others on their hit list.

Army spokesman Maj Gen Athar Abbas insisted the situation in Buner was not as dire as some have portrayed – telling the Associated Press that Taliban were in control of less than 25 percent of the district, mostly its north."


http://www.dailytimes.c...4\story_24-4-2009_pg1_1


Khushi Ram
ambala cantt, India
Apr 24, 2009 12:00 AM
16
Any non-prejudiced and humanistic morality dictates a total annihilation of such a primitive, discriminatory and unevolved jurisprudence.
The Pakistani society, in allowing (if not abetting) such barbarism to fester from among them, has demonstrated a absolute resignation from its humanity.
Their utopian vision of glory built on dehumanising "different" people has a parallel in history - the Nazi Germany. Pakistanis are hauling themselves to the same catastrophy as nazis, while gleefully watching their brand of Islam triumph. Every right thinking nation and society must prepare itself for a showdown with this latest enemy of humanity.
Varun Garde
Bengaluru, India
Apr 24, 2009 12:00 AM
15
Chacha Mohan has been declaring Laloo-Advani weaklings.He has not uttered a word about Sawat where brav Sings are being butcherd.He busy supporting Cair Maulvies.What a Sardar !!
Khushi Ram
ambala cantt, India
Apr 24, 2009 12:00 AM
14
"Who knows but the mullahs might be planning secretly to demand that the same shari’a should now be enforced on the equally helpless and minute population of Hindus in Sindh.

What surprises me, however, is that none of the maulanas and muftis made an issue of the exact amount of money when so many avenues of argumentation were open to them. Was the amount extorted from the Sikhs right according to all the major schools of Islamic jurisprudence? Wasn’t it less? Wasn’t it more? Shouldn’t the amount be equivalent to the value of a certain weight in gold? And what about the requirement, according to many jurists, that the dhimmis must additionally be publicly humiliated and made to display some distinct marker to separate them from the pure and virtuous? Shouldn’t the dhimmis be disbarred from riding a motorbike now, and limited only to riding a bicycle? So many valid questions of fiqh [Islamic jurisprudence] were available to the reverends for the purpose of displaying their brilliance. Further, the newspaper report does not indicate if a similar payment would be demanded again next year. Perhaps not, but then is it valid under shari’ah to extort jizia in a lump sum? Are not the Talibans guilty of a bid’ah [sinful innovation] in this instance? Surely a few fatwas are needed to settle that issue? "

Where is the problem ? Hindus and other non believers living in Islamic Lands are supposed to pay Zazia to Muslim Rulers .This is sanctioned by Quran ,Sharia and Adal Nizam.Aurangzeb too gave the Hindus a choice either convert or pay Zazia .Majority of the Hindus converted under Zazia and Talwar.Only Tenth Guru Sahiban Govind Singh ji Maharaj and Siva Ji protested and protected from the Aurangjebi Zoolam otherwise all would have been converted.

Have not Pandits been paying protection many to Kashmiri Lashkars in the initial satges of the insurgency .Subsequently they were forced out when nothing was left with the Pandits to be extracted.No different fate is awaitng Sikhs and Hindus in Sawat and Sindh.

Mr.CM Naim there is no place of non believers in an Islamic Society.Secularism,Sarv Dharam Sambhav, Multi culturarism all are ok till Muslims are not ruling .Sawat has happened in Twenty First Century .Aurangzeb broke Hindu Temples in the seventeenth Century,Mohamud Gazani destroyed Hindu Temples in Mulasatn ( Multan) and Som Nath Temples in Tenth Century.Before that the Budh Temples of Sawastu now Sawat were destroyed by the Isam .In between was Gaziul Islam Babr who destroyed Ram temple subsequently Aurangzeb broke Hindu Temples in Kashi ,Krishana Temple in Mathura ,even destroyed the temples in Raputan inspite of Rajputs being loyal to Mughals.

We are fighting the War of Cultures -Islam verses Christianity,Judaism and Hinduism on other side.
Khushi Ram
ambala cantt, India
Apr 24, 2009 12:00 AM
13
What is the problem if Talibans ask Jajia a right granted by Sharia to Talibs to levy it on Kafirs ? This is as per Islamic Laws .Sikhs must obey the Laws of the land they live in.They being Kafirs should not expect first take or special treatment available to any believer in Sawat .If they desire to be trated like normal citizen of Sawat then they should be converted.

This is the perfect system so that there will be no leaches in the Country who have all the rights ,all the facilities ,still want more,contribute nothing except always crying 'zulloom hua ham pey' in return to the Nation .Have only rights and spreading Terrorism and threatening Partitions.

Talibans are within their rights to ask protection money from the Sikhs .From where else the Talibans will get revenue to run an Islamic country and also fight Wars with the Non Believers ?

Bhai Sawat ka namk khate ho toh namak halali bhi karo !
Khushi Ram
ambala cantt, India
Apr 24, 2009 12:00 AM
12
Now US finally has agreed that Pakistan is becoming an Islamist state and the fall to Taliban can be disastrous. This is due to

1. Large population and large army
2. Nuclear weapons
3. Not landlocked unlike Afghanistan
4. Control of major port of Karachi in Indian Ocean.
5. Cutting off for supply lines for US from Karachi to Kandahar

This will be a chaos for India, Afghanistan, and US.


http://www.mcclatchydc.com/227/story/66368.html
Prakash
San Francisco, United States
Apr 24, 2009 12:00 AM
11
>>>> That would not be the case if people like you or Sagacious came to power."
>> Yes unfortunately people like you are in power in Pakistan

Can you quote which of my posts showed such tendencies, idiot! Banito's and Sagacious's posts have clearly advocated violence and atrocities against minorities.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Apr 24, 2009 12:00 AM
10
Fu....g ba....ds don't want to work hard but just live of others.
Azeem Taqi
Nashville, United States
Apr 24, 2009 12:00 AM
9
Taliban is within sixty miles of Islamabad. And these guys are worried about jizya in one tiny part of Pak. The day is probably not far off when the entire Paki state is under sharia with Taliban as rulers.

The concept of "strategic depth" in Afghanistan against India is working out superbly for Pakistan.

Ganesan
Nj, USA
Apr 24, 2009 12:00 AM
8
banerjee

in no muslim country has there been a tradition
of humanism. islam is a religion with a inherent strain of hate, prejudice and violence.

muslims can not even be good to their own-
any failure eg blasphemy , sex out of wedlock brings forth horrendous punishment.

hindus are loathe to hurt birds, animals.
cows, monkeys, the peacock enjoy protection as
being partly sacred. its because of this namby
pamby mindset that invaders have come into india, with disastrous consequences.

today being secular -read muslim friendly-is a sin quo non for being accepted in national politics. muslims are not similarly bothered.

no one ,ie clerics, judges, media the civil society is bothered if kaffir hindus, sikhs have to pay jizia. they dont give a damn if hindus are victimized, their daughters kidnapped and forcibly married to a muslim.

hindus can not and will not mistreat minorities
under normal circumstances. muslims can not be tolerant and decent towards minorities at any time.

thats the truth in a nut shell.

the hindu seculars should be exiled to pakistan
for a period. let them feel the difference.
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
Apr 24, 2009 12:00 AM
7
Prakash,

"Pakistan as a country is falling apart. Jinnah must be rolling in his grave, considering his dream of a secular country and the current reality"

You are giving too much credit to Jinnah. When you are creating a country based on religion and expect it to be secular is childish. Jinnah was nothing but a crook politician who have lust for power completely ignoring the consequences of his actions.
Maha
NJ, United States
Apr 24, 2009 12:00 AM
6
">> hindus it seems are far behind the paki,s in being nasty to minorities.
That would not be the case if people like you or Sagacious came to power."

Yes unfortunately people like you are in power in Pakistan. They already experemented this in Afghanistan in 2001 and no one said anything:


http://www.rediff.com/news/2001/may/29akd.htm

ANBanerjee
Newcastle, United Kingdom
Apr 24, 2009 12:00 AM
5
Pakistan as a country is falling apart. Jinnah must be rolling in his grave, considering his dream of a secular country and the current reality. There are many reasons for this. My feeling is that the huge differences between the different sections of the society is the primary reason for the mess. In Pakistan, a small set of people have all the land, money and power. India took some trouble to remove/reduce these bastions of power. This results in lesser differences in the society and more maturity. Sure, there are a lot of problems in India, but they are nothing compared to Pakistan. All the people in Pakistan are focused on power and not idealism. The Chief Justice that they fought so much for is nothing special, he would be respected if he says, "Remove the Jazia tax, or I am out of here". If the chief justice does not care about laws to protect minorities, who will? The danger for India is that if Pakistan falls apart, they will bring the mess to India, something we do not need.
Prakash
San Francisco, United States
Apr 24, 2009 12:00 AM
4
faruki

few paki,s are bothered about minorities and women. most of them are a decadent, corrupt lot,who are now getting their just rewards.

they dream about heaven,the virgins, gorgeous food, but all they will get is fire, bombs
and destruction.

i feel sorry for the decent muslim westernised
english speaking elite. what a misfortune that they have suffered.

they should leave pakistan, convert to some other decent religion, and never have to go back.
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
Apr 24, 2009 12:00 AM
3
"The Pakistani lawyers who took to the streets to bring back an independent judiciary might not have read the news, busy as they must be with important matters, for none issued even a statement of regret or sympathy."

The Pakistani lawyers made an appearance of being progressive activists when they were fighting to get Chaudhury re-instated as Chief Justice, but now they are silent when the Sikhs are being subjected to jazia taxes. They were also silent when laws were being passed against Ahmadis. And their darling Chief Justice, now reinstated, has upheld death penalty for blasphemy! Shame on such lawyers!
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Apr 24, 2009 12:00 AM
2
Banito/Lalit,

>> hindus it seems are far behind the paki,s in being nasty to minorities.

That would not be the case if people like you or Sagacious came to power.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Apr 24, 2009 12:00 AM
1
its amazeing that the sikhs agreed to stay in pakistan, after paying jizia.

it is not just khushwant singh who is an ass.
lots of sikhs fall in this category.

how about indian muslims, who complain of discrimination. hindus it seems are far behind the paki,s in being nasty to minorities.

any comments from the resident maulvi.
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
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