AP
The TRP unworthy: The deaths at Bombay's true icon, VT, didn't matter to TV; those at Taj did
essay: terror in mumbai
9 Is Not 11
(And November isn't September)

We've forfeited the rights to our own tragedies. As the carnage in Mumbai raged on, day after horrible day, our 24-hour news channels informed us that we were watching "India's 9/11". And like actors in a Bollywood rip-off of an old Hollywood film, we're expected to play our parts and say our lines, even though we know it's all been said and done before.

As tension in the region builds, US Senator John McCain has warned Pakistan that if it didn't act fast to arrest the 'Bad Guys' he had personal information that India would launch air strikes on 'terrorist camps' in Pakistan and that Washington could do nothing because Mumbai was India's 9/11.

But November isn't September, 2008 isn't 2001, Pakistan isn't Afghanistan and India isn't America.

 
 
"We die every day," the attacker India TV spoke to said. He didn't seem to want to change the world, just take it down with him.
 
 
So perhaps we should reclaim our tragedy and pick through the debris with our own brains and our own broken hearts so that we can arrive at our own conclusions.

It's odd how in the last week of November thousands of people in Kashmir supervised by thousands of Indian troops lined up to cast their vote, while the richest quarters of India's richest city ended up looking like war-torn Kupwara—one of Kashmir's most ravaged districts.

The Mumbai attacks are only the most recent of a spate of terrorist attacks on Indian towns and cities this year. Ahmedabad, Bangalore, Delhi, Guwahati, Jaipur and Malegaon have all seen serial bomb blasts in which hundreds of ordinary people have been killed and wounded. If the police are right about the people they have arrested as suspects, both Hindu and Muslim, all Indian nationals, it obviously means something's going very badly wrong in this country.

If you were watching television you may not have heard that ordinary people too died in Mumbai. They were mowed down in a busy railway station and a public hospital.
 
 
Trying to pin down the provenance of a terror strike is like trying to pin down the provenance of corporate money. Almost impossible.
 
 
The terrorists did not distinguish between poor and rich. They killed both with equal cold-bloodedness. The Indian media, however, was transfixed by the rising tide of horror that breached the glittering barricades of India Shining and spread its stench in the marbled lobbies and crystal ballrooms of two incredibly luxurious hotels and a small Jewish centre. We're told one of these hotels is an icon of the city of Mumbai. That's absolutely true. It's an icon of the easy, obscene injustice that ordinary Indians endure every day. On a day when the newspapers were full of moving obituaries by beautiful people about the hotel rooms they had stayed in, the gourmet restaurants they loved (ironically, one was called Kandahar), and the staff who served them, a small box on the top left-hand corner in the inner pages of a national newspaper (sponsored by a pizza company I think) said 'Hungry, kya?' (Hungry eh?). It then, with the best of intentions I'm sure, informed its readers that on the international hunger index, India ranked below Sudan and Somalia. But of course this isn't that war. That one's still being fought in the Dalit bastis of our villages, on the banks of the Narmada and the Koel Karo rivers; in the rubber estate in Chengara; in the villages of Nandigram, Singur, Lalgarh in West Bengal; in Chhattisgarh, Jharkhand, Orissa; and the slums and shantytowns of our gigantic cities. That war isn't on TV. Yet.
 
 
Why is India inviting the United States to meddle clumsily in our complicated affairs? A superpower never has allies, only agents.
 
 
So maybe, like everyone else, we should deal with the one that is.

There is a fierce, unforgiving fault line that runs through the contemporary discourse on terrorism. On one side (let's call it Side A) are those who see terrorism, especially 'Islamist' terrorism, as a hateful, insane scourge that spins on its own axis, in its own orbit and has nothing to do with the world around it, nothing to do with history, geography or economics. Therefore, Side A says, to try and place it in a political context, or even try to understand it, amounts to justifying it and is a crime in itself. Side B believes that though nothing can ever excuse or justify terrorism, it exists in a particular time, place and political context, and to refuse to see that will only aggravate the problem and put more and more people in harm's way. Which is a crime in itself.

The sayings of Hafiz Saeed, who founded the Lashkar-e-Toiba (Army of the Pure) in 1990 and who belongs to the hardline Salafi tradition of Islam, certainly bolster the case of Side A. Hafiz Saeed approves of suicide bombing, hates Jews, Shias and Democracy, and believes that jehad should be waged until Islam, his Islam, rules the world. Among the things he has said are:

"There cannot be any peace while India remains intact. Cut them, cut them so much that they kneel before you and ask for mercy."

And, "India has shown us this path. We would like to give India a tit-for-tat response and reciprocate in the same way by killing the Hindus, just like it is killing the Muslims in Kashmir."

But where would Side A accommodate the sayings of Babu Bajrangi of Ahmedabad, India, who sees himself as a democrat, not a terrorist? He was one of the major lynchpins of the 2002 Gujarat genocide and has said (on camera):

"We didn't spare a single Muslim shop, we set everything on fire...we hacked, burned, set on fire...we believe in setting them on fire because these bastards don't want to be cremated, they're afraid of it.... I have just one last wish...let me be sentenced to death.... I don't care if I'm hanged...just give me two days before my hanging and I will go and have a field day in Juhapura where seven or eight lakhs of these people stay.... I will finish them off...let a few more of them die...at least twenty-five thousand to fifty thousand should die."

And where, in Side A's scheme of things, would we place the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh bible, We, or Our Nationhood Defined by M.S. Golwalkar 'Guruji', who became head of the RSS in 1944. It says:

"Ever since that evil day, when Moslems first landed in Hindustan, right up to the present moment, the Hindu Nation has been gallantly fighting on to take on these despoilers. The Race Spirit has been awakening."

Or:

"To keep up the purity of its race and culture, Germany shocked the world by her purging the country of the Semitic races—the Jews. Race pride at its highest has been manifested here...a good lesson for us in Hindustan to learn and profit by."

Of course, Muslims are not the only people in the gun sights of the Hindu Right. Dalits have been consistently targeted. Recently in Kandhamal in Orissa, Christians were the target of two-and-a-half months of violence which left more than 40 dead. Forty thousand people have been driven from their homes, half of whom now live in refugee camps.

All these years, Hafiz Saeed has lived the life of a respectable man in Lahore as the head of the Jamaat-ud-Dawa, which many believe is a front organisation for the Lashkar-e-Toiba. He continued to recruit young boys for his own bigoted jehad with his twisted, fiery sermons. On December 11, the UN imposed sanctions on the Jamaat-ud-Dawa and the Pakistani government succumbed to international pressure, putting Hafiz Saeed under house arrest. Babu Bajrangi, however, is out on bail and continues to live the life of a respectable man in Gujarat. A couple of years after the genocide, he left the VHP to join the Shiv Sena. Narendra Modi, Bajrangi's former mentor, is still the chief minister of Gujarat. So the man who presided over the Gujarat genocide was re-elected twice, and is deeply respected by India's biggest corporate houses, Reliance and Tata. Suhel Seth, a TV impresario and corporate spokesperson, has recently said, "Modi is God." The policemen who supervised and sometimes even assisted the rampaging Hindu mobs in Gujarat have been rewarded and promoted. The RSS has 45,000 branches, its own range of charities and seven million volunteers preaching its doctrine of hate across India. They include Narendra Modi, but also former prime minister A.B. Vajpayee, current Leader of the Opposition L.K. Advani, and a host of other senior politicians, bureaucrats and police and intelligence officers.

And if that's not enough to complicate our picture of secular democracy, we should place on record that there are plenty of Muslim organisations within India preaching their own narrow bigotry.

So, on balance, if I had to choose between Side A and Side B, I'd pick Side B. We need context. Always.

In this nuclear subcontinent, that context is Partition. The Radcliffe Line which separated India and Pakistan and tore through states, districts, villages, fields, communities, water systems, homes and families, was drawn virtually overnight. It was Britain's final, parting kick to us. Partition triggered the massacre of more than a million people and the largest migration of a human population in contemporary history. Eight million people—Hindus fleeing the new Pakistan, Muslims fleeing the new kind of India—left their homes with nothing but the clothes on their backs. Each of those people carries and passes down a story of unimaginable pain, hate, horror, but yearning too. That wound, those torn but still unsevered muscles, that blood and those splintered bones still lock us together in a close embrace of hatred, terrifying familiarity but also love. It has left Kashmir trapped in a nightmare from which it can't seem to emerge, a nightmare that has claimed more than 60,000 lives. Pakistan, the Land of the Pure, became an Islamic republic, and then, very quickly a corrupt, violent military state, openly intolerant of other faiths. India on the other hand declared herself an inclusive, secular democracy. It was a magnificent undertaking, but Babu Bajrangi's predecessors had been hard at work since the 1920s, dripping poison into India's bloodstream, undermining that idea of India even before it was born. By 1990, they were ready to make a bid for power. In 1992, Hindu mobs exhorted by L.K. Advani stormed the Babri Masjid and demolished it. By 1998, the BJP was in power at the Centre. The US War on Terror put the wind in their sails. It allowed them to do exactly as they pleased, even to commit genocide and then present their fascism as a legitimate form of chaotic democracy. This happened at a time when India had opened its huge market to international finance, and it was in the interests of international corporations and the media houses they owned to project it as a country that could do no wrong. That gave Hindu Nationalists all the impetus and the impunity they needed. This, then, is the larger historical context of terrorism in the subcontinent, and of the Mumbai attacks.

It shouldn't surprise us that Hafiz Saeed of the Lashkar-e-Toiba is from Shimla (India) and L.K. Advani of the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh is from Sindh (Pakistan).

In much the same way as it did after the 2001 Parliament attack, the 2002 burning of the Sabarmati Express and the 2006 bombing of the Samjhauta Express, the Government of India announced that it has 'incontrovertible' evidence that the Lashkar-e-Toiba backed by Pakistan's ISI was behind the Mumbai strikes. The Lashkar has denied involvement, but remains the prime accused. According to the police and intelligence agencies, the Lashkar operates in India through an organisation called the 'Indian Mujahideen'. Two Indian nationals—Sheikh Mukhtar Ahmed, a Special Police Officer working for the Jammu and Kashmir Police, and Tausif Rehman, a resident of Calcutta in West Bengal—have been arrested in connection with the Mumbai attacks. So already the neat accusation against Pakistan is getting a little messy. Almost always, when these stories unspool, they reveal a complicated global network of foot-soldiers, trainers, recruiters, middlemen and undercover intelligence and counter-intelligence operatives, working not just on both sides of the India-Pakistan border, but in several countries simultaneously. In today's world, trying to pin down the provenance of a terrorist strike and isolate it within the borders of a single nation-state is very much like trying to pin down the provenance of corporate money. It's almost impossible.

In circumstances like these, air strikes to 'take out' terrorist camps may take out the camps, but certainly will not 'take out' the terrorists. And neither will war. (Also, in our bid for the moral high ground, let's try not to forget that the Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam, the LTTE of neighbouring Sri Lanka, one of the world's most deadly terrorist groups, were trained by the Indian army.)



Afghan revenge: America’s debris, our headache

Thanks largely to the part it was forced to play as America's ally, first in its war in support of the Afghan Islamists and then in its war against them, Pakistan, whose territory is reeling under these contradictions, is careening towards civil war. As recruiting agents for America's jehad against the Soviet Union, it was the job of the Pakistan army and the ISI to nurture and channel funds to Islamic fundamentalist organisations. Having wired up these Frankenstein's monsters and released them into the world, the US expected it could rein them in like pet mastiffs whenever it wanted to. Certainly it did not expect them to come calling in the heart of the Homeland on September 11. So once again, Afghanistan had to be violently re-made. Now the debris of a re-ravaged Afghanistan has washed up on Pakistan's borders. Nobody, least of all the Pakistan government, denies that it is presiding over a country that is threatening to implode. The terrorist training camps, the fire-breathing mullahs and the maniacs who believe that Islam will, or should, rule the world is mostly the detritus of two Afghan wars. Their ire rains down on the Pakistan government and Pakistani civilians as much, if not more, than it does on India. If at this point India decides to go to war, perhaps the descent of the whole region into chaos will be complete. The debris of a bankrupt, destroyed Pakistan will wash up on India's shores, endangering us as never before. If Pakistan collapses, we can look forward to having millions of 'non-state actors' with an arsenal of nuclear weapons at their disposal as neighbours. It's hard to understand why those who steer India's ship are so keen to replicate Pakistan's mistakes and call damnation upon this country by inviting the United States to further meddle clumsily and dangerously in our extremely complicated affairs. A superpower never has allies. It only has agents.

On the plus side, the advantage of going to war is that it's the best way for India to avoid facing up to the serious trouble building on our home front.

The Mumbai attacks were broadcast live (and exclusive!) on all or most of our 67 24-hour news channels and god knows how many international ones. TV anchors in their studios and journalists at 'ground zero' kept up an endless stream of excited commentary. Over three days and three nights, we watched in disbelief as a small group of very young men armed with guns and gadgets exposed the powerlessness of the police, the elite National Security Guard and the marine commandos of this supposedly mighty, nuclear-powered nation. While they did this, they indiscriminately massacred unarmed people, in railway stations, hospitals and luxury hotels, unmindful of their class, caste, religion or nationality. Part of the helplessness of the security forces had to do with having to worry about hostages. In other situations, in Kashmir for example, their tactics are not so sensitive. Whole buildings are blown up. Human shields are used. (The US and Israeli armies don't hesitate to send cruise missiles into buildings and drop daisy cutters on wedding parties in Palestine, Iraq and Afghanistan.) But this was different. And it was on TV.

The boy-terrorists' nonchalant willingness to kill—and be killed—mesmerised their international audience. They delivered something different from the usual diet of suicide bombings and missile attacks that people have grown inured to on the news. Here was something new. Die Hard 25. The gruesome performance went on and on. TV ratings soared. Ask any television magnate or corporate advertiser who measures broadcast time in seconds, not minutes, what that's worth.

Eventually the killers died and died hard, all but one. (Perhaps, in the chaos, some escaped. We may never know.) Throughout the stand-off, the terrorists made no demands and expressed no desire to negotiate. Their purpose was to kill people and inflict as much damage as they could before they were killed themselves. They left us completely bewildered. When we say 'Nothing can justify terrorism', what most of us mean is that nothing can justify the taking of human life. We say this because we respect life, because we think it's precious. So what are we to make of those who care nothing for life, not even their own? The truth is that we have no idea what to make of them, because we can sense that even before they've died, they've journeyed to another world where we cannot reach them


Gujarat ’02: The elephant in the room

One TV channel (India TV) broadcast a phone conversation with one of the attackers, who called himself 'Imran Babar'. I cannot vouch for the veracity of the conversation, but the things he talked about were the things contained in the 'terror e-mails' that were sent out before several other bomb attacks in India. Things we don't want to talk about any more: the demolition of the Babri Masjid in 1992, the genocidal slaughter of Muslims in Gujarat in 2002, the brutal repression in Kashmir. "You're surrounded," the anchor told him. "You are definitely going to die. Why don't you surrender?" "We die every day," he replied in a strange, mechanical way. "It's better to live one day as a lion and then die this way." He didn't seem to want to change the world. He just seemed to want to take it down with him.

If the men were indeed members of the Lashkar-e-Toiba, why didn't it matter to them that a large number of their victims were Muslim, or that their action was likely to result in a severe backlash against the Muslim community in India whose rights they claim to be fighting for? Terrorism is a heartless ideology, and like most ideologies that have their eye on the Big Picture, individuals don't figure in its calculations except as collateral damage. It has always been a part of—and often even the aim of—terrorist strategy to exacerbate a bad situation in order to expose hidden fault lines. The blood of 'martyrs' irrigates terrorism. Hindu terrorists need dead Hindus, Communist terrorists need dead proletarians, Islamist terrorists need dead Muslims. The dead become the demonstration, the proof of victimhood, which is central to the project. A single act of terrorism is not in itself meant to achieve military victory; at best it is meant to be a catalyst that triggers something else, something much larger than itself, a tectonic shift, a realignment. The act itself is theatre, spectacle and symbolism, and today, the stage on which it pirouettes and performs its acts of bestiality is Live TV.

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Daily MailPublished
COLLAPSE COMMENTS :
HAVE YOUR SAY
Dec 13, 2008 12:00 AM
1
This woman is a literary terrorist. Or maybe even literally a terrorist.
Anil Chakradar
Hyderabad, INDIA
Dec 13, 2008 12:00 AM
2
Arundathi's verbosity clearly shows signs that she suffers from serious problems of oral tension that find their way into Outlook in the form of disorganised rants. Nothing constructive or serious comes from this harebrained literary has been. I would have appreciated it if she wrote in a manner that persuaded rather than in manner that riles.
C K Jaidev
Dubai, UAE
Dec 13, 2008 12:00 AM
3
A blockbuster of an article, discussing the nature of terrorism while forcing us to look at ourselves in the mirror. Arundhati asks provocative questions and draws striking juxtapositions, making us feel very uncomfortable in the process. An excellent polemical discourse.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 13, 2008 12:00 AM
4
Part II:
When Muslims approach 10% of the population, they tend to increase lawlessness as a means of complaint about their conditions. In Paris, we are already seeing car-burnings. Any non-Muslim action offends Islam, and results in uprisings and threats, such as in Amsterdam , with opposition to Mohammed cartoons and films about Islam. Such tensions are seen daily, particularly in Muslim sections, in: Guyana -- Muslim 10% India -- Muslim 13.4% Israel -- Muslim 16% Kenya -- Muslim 10% Russia -- Muslim 15% After reaching 20%, nations can expect hair-trigger rioting, jihad militia formations, sporadic killings, and the burnings of Christian churches and Jewish synagogues, such as in: Ethiopia -- Muslim 32.8% At 40%, nations experience widespread massacres, chronic terror attacks, and ongoing militia warfare, such as in: Bosnia -- Muslim 40% Chad -- Muslim 53.1% Lebanon -- Muslim 59.7% From 60%, nations experience unfettered persecution of non-believers of all other religions (including non-conforming Muslims), sporadic ethnic cleansing (genocide), use of Sharia Law as a weapon, and Jizya, the tax placed on infidels, such as in: Albania -- Muslim 70% Malaysia -- Muslim 60.4% Qatar -- Muslim 77.5% Sudan -- Muslim 70% After 80%, expect daily intimidation and violent jihad, some State-run ethnic cleansing, and even some genocide, as these nations drive out the infidels, and move toward 100% Muslim, such as has been experienced and in some ways is on-going in: Bangladesh -- Muslim 83% Egypt -- Muslim 90% Gaza -- Muslim 98.7% Indonesia -- Muslim 86.1% Iran -- Muslim 98% Iraq -- Muslim 97% Jordan -- Muslim 92% Morocco -- Muslim 98.7% Pakistan -- Muslim 97% Palestine -- Muslim 99% Syria -- Muslim 90% Tajikistan -- Muslim 90% Turkey -- Muslim 99.8% United Arab Emirates -- Muslim 96%

100% will usher in the peace of 'Dar-es-Salaam' -- the Islamic House of Peace. Here there's supposed to be peace, because everybody is a Muslim, the Madrassas are the only schools, and the Koran is the only word, such as in: Afghanistan -- Muslim 100% Saudi Arabia -- Muslim 100% Somalia -- Muslim 100% Yemen -- Muslim 100%.

Unfortunately, peace is never achieved, as in these 100% states the most radical Muslims intimidate and spew hatred, and satisfy their blood lust by killing less radical Muslims, for a variety of reasons. 'Before I was nine I had learned the basic canon of Arab life. It was me against my brother; me and my brother against our father; my family against my cousins and the clan; the clan against the tribe; the tribe against the world, and all of us against the infidel. -- Leon Uris, 'The Haj' It is important to understand that in some countries, with well under 100% Muslim populations, such as France, the minority Muslim populations live in ghettos, within which they are 100% Muslim, and within which they live by Sharia Law. The national police do not even enter these ghettos. There are no national courts, nor schools, nor non-Muslim religious facilities. In such situations, Muslims do not integrate into the community at large. The children attend madrassas. They learn only the Koran. To even associate with an infidel is a crime punishable with death. Therefore, in some areas of certain nations, Muslim Imams and extremists exercise more power than the national average would indicate. Today's 1.5 billion Muslims make up 22% of the world's population. But their birth rates dwarf the birth rates of Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, Jews, and all other believers. Some say Muslims will exceed 50% of the world's population by the end of this century.
Only God, Allah, Brahma has to save the world.
shivkumar
Mumbai, India
Dec 13, 2008 12:00 AM
5
Part 1:
Arundhati Roy is talking all nonsense and she is thinking herself a genius, which she is not. She should not compare between Hindus and Muslim religion. Her writing is nothing but absolute perversion, her mind is occupied by some mad spirit. The whole world knows how Muslim religion spread through out the world and by what means? Without knowing the history she talks all shit. I am must say a world without religion is the ideal place. If not, a world without violent religion is no problem. But a world with a violent religion? A world with all freedom lost? We can’t even think about it. I leave this question to people to decide which is violent religion? Arundhati Roy should read this following writings of well known author. I am quoting from Dr. Peter Hammond's book - "Slavery, Terrorism and Islam: The Historical Roots and Contemporary Threat, the following:

Islam has religious, legal, political, economic, social, and military components. The religious component is a beard for all of the other components. Islamization begins when there are sufficient Muslims in a country to agitate for their religious privileges. When politically correct, tolerant, and culturally diverse societies agree to Muslim demands for their religious privileges, some of the other components tend to creep in as well. Here's how it works. As long as the Muslim population remains around or under 2% in any given country, they will be for the most part be regarded as a peace-loving minority, and not as a threat to other citizens. This is the case in: United States -- Muslim 0.6% Australia -- Muslim 1.5% Canada -- Muslim 1.9% China -- Muslim 1.8% Italy -- Muslim 1.5% Norway -- Muslim 1.8% At 2% to 5%, they begin to proselytize from other ethnic minorities and disaffected groups, often with major recruiting from the jails and among street gangs. This is happening in: Denmark -- Muslim 2% Germany -- Muslim 3.7% United Kingdom -- Muslim 2.7% Spain -- Muslim 4% Thailand -- Muslim 4.6%.

From 5% on, they exercise an inordinate influence in proportion to their percentage of the population. For example, they will push for the introduction of halal (clean by Islamic standards) food, thereby securing food preparation jobs for Muslims. They will increase pressure on supermarket chains to feature halal on their shelves -- along with threats for failure to comply. This is occurring in: France -- Muslim 8% Philippines -- Muslim 5% Sweden -- Muslim 5% Switzerland -- Muslim 4.3% The Netherlands -- Muslim 5.5% Trinidad & Tobago -- Muslim 5.8% At this point, they will work to get the ruling government to allow them to rule themselves (within their ghettos) under Sharia, the Islamic Law. The ultimate goal of Islamists is to establish Sharia law over the entire world.
shivkumar
Mumbai, India
Dec 13, 2008 12:00 AM
6
Ms Roy, your whole attitude towards India stinks.By writing a long descriptive essay doesn't make you more philosophical or enlightened soul.I am not sure if you are on payroll of any anti- Indian organisation.I request Editor Mr Mehta not to spare any space in his respected weekly.
I am not sure why she kept repeating Gujrat riot.What ever had happened was bad but by keep repeating same thing is still worse.If she still thinks its justified then please respond how far back in history she wants to go.Is she ready to go back to era of Mohammad Gazni?
I advice Ms Roy to do something different for her living rather than to earn some money for her livelihood this way.
Indian
Perth, Australia
Dec 13, 2008 12:00 AM
7
This woman is full of herself.

200 people are dead. She would have me think less of myself because I wished for the safety for those who were trapped in the Taj and Oberoi rather than the dead at Victoria Terminal (India's True Icon).

Victoria Terminal is our real icon?
IS THAT WHAT YOU CARE ABOUT?

I knew from the moment I read that she had written something- that it would be about the Bajrang Dal, Modi, Batla house, Hindutva, the Sadhvi, the Shiv Sena and the way the NSG is being created as a group of HEROES instead of killers.
I wished, I PRAYED that I would be wrong, that she would, for a fucking CHANGE, focus on the issue at hand.

But no.

What the hell is wrong with her? She's changing the subject! If India has incontrovertible proof in Iman/Kasab's father and building international opinion- we have a chance to force pakistan to shut down LeT once and for all.

But she will have us nailed onto Malegaon, Gujarat, and other communal riots.
As far as we are concerned- those were the tools of brainwashing for the people who attacked Bombay. Nothing more.

Each crime will be judged.

We do not need a pompous clown floating three feet above the head of everone else making us feel guilty for caring for the dead and endangered simply because they were rich and not oppressed Dalits.
There is a desire to act, use it for something other than selling your own ideology.
Anjishnu Kumar
New Delhi, India
Dec 13, 2008 12:00 AM
8
How can 26 November be India's "9/11"? Nothing particular happened on 9 November, did it?

I wish to see the day Indian media begin referring to 11 September 2001 as 11/9 if it has to refer to it at all. As if nothing happened in the world that day; as if it were something that the whole world needs to mark; as if no other nation ever suffered terrorist attacks (including of the state-sponsored Zionazi version) before or since.
Biswapriya Purkayastha
Shillong, India
Dec 13, 2008 12:00 AM
9
Incidentally, about the "Indian Icon" Taj - anyone remember the poor Tamil woman who had nurtured a lifelong dream of having a meal in it? Last year when she finally got to Mumbai and was taken for a meal there by her relatives, she was turned away at the door for wearing slippers. Apparently there was a dress code that only close shoes could be worn. But there were plenty of whites wearing slippers, shorts and halter tops inside. No dress code for them.

Reminds me of the Bali nightclub bombed in 2002 which didn't allow the native Indonesians inside unless they were female and accompanying a white foreigner - prostitutes, in other words.
Biswapriya Purkayastha
Shillong, India
Dec 13, 2008 12:00 AM
10
I read only the last page. And given the bloopers and stupidity in one page, all I can say is this.

9 is not 11.November is not September. And verbal diarrhoea does not constitute an article.
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Dec 13, 2008 12:00 AM
11
I'm always fascinated by the reactions Arundhati Roy's writing provokes, and the responses to this piece are shaping up to be no exception. I wrote up my thoughts on this in some detail here:


http://sudiptounplugged...hate-arundhati-roy.html


I welcome feedback.
Kanishka Lahiri
kolkata, india
Dec 13, 2008 12:00 AM
12
Interesting and thought-provoking article! I think the logic of this being a "blow-back" is a bit of a stretch, a desperate rationalization. There is no cause-and-effect principle operating here. Just as with the Hindu madness we saw in Gujarat, the attacks in Mumbai were simply acts of insanity, by people who fell victims to a deranged - not ideology - but simply an idea.

Also, thanks for slamming the media. They deserve to be utterly ignored.

Finally, here's hoping that people writing responses to your article will debate your ideas and not indulge in slander (esp., a lot of the people writing in from the US)
shadyiyengar
Baroda, India
Dec 13, 2008 12:00 AM
13
A long time ago Jinnah gave us the choice: Partition or civil war. We avoided the civil war and that did not turn well. Now Arundati rants a choice: justice or civil war. We choose to side with Arnab Goswami in being thoroughly disgusted by her. Its difficult to side with LK Advani or Atal Bihari Vajpayee given their RSS affiliations and at least Advani's role in Babri Masjid's destruction, but its important to point out that their stated hatred for muslims or Pakistan is far less than Arundati or looni left in India's hatred for the US. And certainly not to be compared with Hafiz Saeed as AR maliciously suggests. We expect a more nuanced analysis from an activist if she is to be taken seriously. Unfortunately, I doubt if AR is capable of rising above her biases...which is sad as it is difficult to disagree with her on most issues.
jha singh
new delhi, india
Dec 13, 2008 12:00 AM
14
Another PofS, don't spend time and attention to traitors who get money from Jihadis and Western powers to disintegrate Hindhus and eventually India.

May be, Sonia Moino is doing exactly that with the help of her puppet MMS. Look at the impotent Union Ministers who are supposed to take on these terrorists, hopes are very much dim!
Ram
Kerela, India
Dec 13, 2008 12:00 AM
15
Quote.
At one point, while interviewing a former police officer, Arnab Goswami turned to camera: "Arundhati Roy and Prashant Bhushan," he said, "I hope you are watching this. We think you are disgusting." For a TV anchor to do this in an atmosphere as charged and as frenzied as the one that prevails today, amounts to incitement as well as threat, and would probably in different circumstances have cost a journalist his or her job.
……
……
The only way to contain (it would be naïve to say end) terrorism is to look at the monster in the mirror. We're standing at a fork in the road. One sign says Justice, the other Civil War. There's no third sign and there's no going back. Choose.
End Quote

Is that last paragraph meant as a Cassandra call, friendly advice, threat, ultimatum or incitement? Perhaps, even Arundhati does not know.
Narasimhan M.G
Bangalore, India
Dec 13, 2008 12:00 AM
16
Quote.
We had the death of former prime minister VP Singh, the hero of Dalits and lower castes and villain of Upper caste Hindus pass without a mention.
End Quote.

VP Singh may be a hero to the pro-reservationists, but he triggered the self-immolation binges. He did not have altruistic motives in accepting the Mandal commission report with great fanfare. Devi Lal, his deputy PM had resigned and VP needed support for some other corner. He acted out of political opportunism and we lost some bright young, admittedly forward caste boys. Why do you remember only those parts that suit your predilections, Arundhati?
Narasimhan M.G
Bangalore, India
Dec 13, 2008 12:00 AM
17
Quote.
Also, in our bid for the moral high ground, let's try not to forget that the Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam, the LTTE of neighbouring Sri Lanka, one of the world's most deadly terrorist groups, were trained by the Indian army.
End Quote

Some of the most influential reporting and opinion making on Sri Lanka during the Rajiv Gandhi regime was from N. Ram and The Hindu(TH). As a Chennai based national newspaper, known for moderation in reporting, TH was at the forefront of coverage on atrocities on Sri Lankan Tamils, and undoubtedly there was truth in these reports. Our tamils were angry at the treatment of their ethnic brethren, and Karunananidhi put pressure on Delhi, just as he is doing now. So Rajiv Gandhi acted under these circumstances, giving sanctuaries to LTTE and training them. Eventually they had a tripartite meeting in Delhi (Jayawardane, Rajiv Gandhi & Pirabhakaran). IPKF entered Sri Lanka, failed to resolve the conflict. LTTE turned against its sponsors.
Yes, India made a mistake. It paid for it with the life of Rajiv Gandhi and the bystanders at an election rally in Sriperumbudur. India learned its lesson, and since then has made Sri Lanka’s unity & sovereignty a guiding principle, along with an equitable solution to the Tamils’ problems.

Context, Arundhati, context.
Narasimhan M.G
Bangalore, India
Dec 13, 2008 12:00 AM
18
Quote.
On one side (let's call it Side A) are those who see terrorism, especially "Islamist" terrorism, as a hateful, insane scourge that spins on its own axis, in its own orbit and has nothing to do with the world around it, nothing to do with history, geography or economics. Therefore, Side A says, to try and place it in a political context, or even try to understand it, amounts to justifying it and is a crime in itself.
Side B believes that though nothing can ever excuse or justify terrorism, it exists in a particular time, place and political context, and to refuse to see that will only aggravate the problem and put more and more people in harm's way. Which is a crime in itself.
End Quote

Side B’s line of thought is not new. It understands terror, murder and suicide attacks. Its understanding may one day span cannibalism too. After all, if I see my tribe eating human flesh, then I do it due to my upbringing. If all I have seen is war, rape and torture, I should be excused if I do it myself, even in a country where such things are unheard of. If I have been programmed at an impressionable age, brainwashed with propaganda, you should understand me. You should see what I’ve been through, to understand me.
This theory that ‘crime is understandable because of unjust circumstances’, is used by defense lawyers of psychopaths. The normal solution that flows from this understanding is to replace our self-defense teams, first-responders and crack troops with therapists, humanists and nurses. It worked with Angulimala, why can’t we try it today? After all, Angulimala had reasons why he cut those fingers and garlanded himself.
The answer, ironically, was given by the Mahatma. I’ll protest against injustice, I’ll not obey your unjust laws, I’ll take your blows. But I’ll not retaliate, not hurt you phsically. So please tell the ‘jihadis’ to think about this mode of protest. Don’t play the moral equivalence game, condoning one evil by citing another.
Narasimhan M.G
Bangalore, India
Dec 13, 2008 12:00 AM
19
Quote.
We've forfeited the rights to our own tragedies. As the carnage in Mumbai raged on, day after horrible day, our 24-hour news channels informed us that we were watching "India's 9/11". Like actors in a Bollywood rip-off of an old Hollywood film, we're expected to play our parts and say our lines, even though we know it's all been said and done before.
End quote.
Wow, The ‘Writer-Activist’ Diva is back! What took her so long? She is sincere about repeating her lines. She wrote these words in ‘The End of imagination’. She was better the first time.

There can be nothing more humiliating for a writer of fiction to have to do than restate a case that has, over the years, already been made by other people in other parts of the world, and made passionately, eloquently and knowledgeably. I am prepared to grovel. To humiliate myself abjectly, because, in the circumstances, silence would be indefensible. So those of you who are willing: let's pick our parts, put on these discarded costumes and speak our second-hand lines in this sad second-hand play.

AND COMPARE

(5/6/2005, Outlook, Summer games with Nuclear weapons)
For the governments of India and Pakistan, Kashmir is not a problem, it's their perennial and spectacularly successful solution. Kashmir is the rabbit they pull out of their hats every time they need a rabbit. Unfortunately, it's a radioactive rabbit now, and it's careening out of control.
No doubt there is Pakistan sponsored cross-border terrorism in Kashmir. But there's other kinds of terror in the valley. There's the inchoate nexus between jehadi militants, ex-militants, foreign mercenaries, local mercenaries, underworld Mafiosi, security forces, arms dealers and criminalized politicians and officials on both sides of the border. There's also rigged elections, daily humiliation, "disappearances" and staged "encounters."
WITH (Outlook, 12/12/08)
So already the neat accusation against Pakistan is getting a little messy. Almost always, when these stories unspool, they reveal a complicated global network of foot soldiers, trainers, recruiters, middlemen and undercover intelligence and counter-intelligence operatives working not just on both sides of the India-Pakistan border, but in several countries simultaneously. In today's world, trying to pin down the provenance of a terrorist strike and isolate it within the borders of a single nation state is very much like trying to pin down the provenance of corporate money. It's almost impossible.
I’ll examine each of her arguments in more detail. Now it will span pages, so please bear with me!
Narasimhan M.G
Bangalore, India
Dec 13, 2008 12:00 AM
20
The crucial point to be noted is that AR can never separate her ego from her words. No writer writing to a nation whose individuals hold every kind of view, be it rational or otherwise, can afford to flaunt his (/her? just for political correctness? screw it) ego in front of those
he is trying to convince.

AR starts off being showering us with sarcasm, because our opinions are dictated by the US and by TV, that we wanted to read about a sensational terrorist attack and not to the old plight faced by dalits, muslims, kashmiris etc.
Her sarcasm makes me sick, disgusted. It's like she's trying to score points- no different from the hate speeches she loves to deride.

Her words are useless. Much of it can only be counted as some form of rhetorical rant against the media for one anchor's direct attack against her.

So many people were trapped at the Taj, and it's practically a national icon!
(AR: No, victoria terminal is the real national icon, plus- poor people died there!)
To fight terror- you must use the army- have them better equipped and with faster a response mechanism,(AR: but the army is a bunch of people terrorising J&K!) Policemen are heroes who gave their lives to save others, (AR:but the police have fake encounters and kill muslims! They are the terrorists!)
We need the US's support to pressure Pakistan. (AR: The US killed so many innocents! They are the devil!)
Hand over Hafiz, house arrest is not enough. (AR: Why don't you catch Babu Bajrangi instead!? He is out on bail.)

You want to fight all the evil in the world? You and whose army?
If we can't tackle one problem at a time, how do you plan to fight them all together?

With a sharp tongue and misdirected sarcasm?
Anjishnu Kumar
New Delhi, India
Dec 13, 2008 12:00 AM
21
Quote.
And where, in Side A's scheme of things, would we place the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh bible, We, or, Our Nationhood Defined by MS Golwalkar, who became head of the RSS in 1944. It says: "Ever since that evil day, when Moslems first landed in Hindustan, right up to the present moment, the Hindu Nation has been gallantly fighting on to take on these despoilers. The Race Spirit has been awakening."
Or: "To keep up the purity of its race and culture, Germany shocked the world by her purging the country of the Semitic races – the Jews. Race pride at its highest has been manifested here ... a good lesson for us in Hindustan to learn and profit by."
End Quote

The CONTEXT. Here is Koenraad Elst’s analysis

http://koenraadelst.bha.../fascism/golwalkar.html


Narasimhan M.G
Bangalore, India
Dec 13, 2008 12:00 AM
22
Why is the OUTLOOK so facinated about "the ONE BOOK WOUNDER" whose only claim to faim is a booker prize she got for writing rubish about her mother, brother and relatives. Has she run out of the "Pounds" she got from Uk that OULOOK has to throw tit-bits for her to survive????
Akil
Bangalore, India
Dec 13, 2008 12:00 AM
23
Please don't allow such writers too write in your magazine. It is unfortunate she holds an Indian passport. She unfortunately doesn't understand on how's and whys and lives in some world which doesn't exist. Please stop allowing her coumns
vibhaas
Doha, qatar
Dec 13, 2008 12:00 AM
24
I have only a single question: Is the lady sane enough that you let her write this? I can suggest at least one good place in India where she can get her head examined.
Prashanth
Bangalore, India
Dec 13, 2008 12:00 AM
25
Terrorism isn't an ideology, it's a tactic.

I'll keep posting comments as I read.
Biswapriya Purkayastha
Shillong, India
Dec 13, 2008 12:00 AM
26
Only stupid people believe TV channels. Unfortunately, the majority of people have allowed themselves to become stupid - and not just in India, either.
Biswapriya Purkayastha
Shillong, India
Dec 13, 2008 12:00 AM
27
I guess it IS open to Ms Roy and Prashant Bhushan to open legal proceedings against the, admittedly exceedingly unpalatable, Mr Goswami for defamation?
Biswapriya Purkayastha
Shillong, India
Dec 13, 2008 12:00 AM
28
And Arundhati is not Taslima Nasrin.

Madam, please forgive me. But I have stopped reading your long stories long long back.
jaleel
luknow, India
Dec 13, 2008 12:00 AM
29
senor biswa,

the left wing as the opinon that it is allwaysa right, and all who not agree are fascists-like benito mussolini.stalin would have been very hard againsta the leftists who disagreed with him-remember the moscow trials, the gulags-

from my experience with leftists in italia,
is not a question of debateing on logic. its
more question of arguein with people who
have a pschycological problem.

in the case of senora roy is likely that she
faceda rejection as a child and as a young lady-

the hatred she feels has focussed on the establishment, the sucessful middle class, happy
families who eat out in expensive restaurantis. . it is known problema-

peiople who face,rejection focus all frustrations against any , maybe a random enemy.

in democracies it would be the establishment.

no matter how they try , no can one please senora.

i speculate how she would manage in taliban territories in pakistan.who would she hate there.
and how would the taliban manage her.

chao-




banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
Dec 13, 2008 12:00 AM
30
learned

why people want freedom from india,decide
thesa by voteing in electione.
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
Dec 13, 2008 12:00 AM
31
Fascinating writing and beautiful like poetry. I may disagree with some of her points, but the way Roy expressed herself is beautiful. Diluting the horror of terrorism is not the solution. A statemanlike approach is needed. Yes, it was the biggest drama on Indian television after that poor boy who was caught in the borewell and taken out alive. Times and Arnab were always on the side of the underdogs if you have watched carefully. Why should not he express himself bluntly on that fateful day? What about PTVs routine ravings about the Indian army on a daily basis? Hotels like Taj and Oberai cater to a privileged clientile charging them for that. They are not public spots to be visited by ill dressed people just because as a matter of right. Poor do not become virtuous because of poverty and the rich do not become vice just because of their money. If we are really genuine, we must shed tears for the rich and poor victims, for the muslims, christians , jews and hindus irrespective of their religious tags. As for VP Singh, he was shown his right place. Yes, he was less important than the terror victims whether they are at CST or at the seven stars.
pear
mumbai, India
Dec 13, 2008 12:00 AM
32
I just have one question, Mr Mehta: why do you have to inflict on hapless and helpless readers Ms Roy every time a tragedy occurs anywhere as if the tragedy itself is not enough to torture us? Or you are some kind of saddist who derives pleasure from the double whammy - first the real tragedy and then 2nd one from the tortured soul (or mind) of Ms Roy? Please have some mercy on us, Mr Mehta!
Gopi Maliwal
Hong Kong, China
Dec 13, 2008 12:00 AM
33
Typical pseudo secular comments
gopinath
Bangalore, India
Dec 13, 2008 12:00 AM
34
Before even I read the first page, I guessed whom this woman would blame for the inhuman Islamic terrorists: India, Hindus, Modi, RSS, BJP, Gujarat, US and grudgingly say a one word or two about Pakistan or muslim extremists. Surprise ... Surprise ... I was not disappointed. She is there blaming India, Gujrat, Hindus, 1948 RSS founder, Modi, Bajrang Dal, and US. She has one line "there are some violent muslim organizations too". She even blamed India for blaming Pakistan. How dare they?

It is every body's fault (US, India, Hindus, RSS, Gujarat, Modi) but except the military rulers in Pakistan, ISI who have turned the terrorism into a huge profitable business.

If anyone has any doubts, read this book


http://www.amazon.com/r...ubmissionDateDescending


This book details the Pakistani army business. They not only own businesses, they own jihad factories that can kill hindus, jews, christians and can be used to blackmail the US/Europe to extract billions of dollars in aid.

Our traitor Queen never talks about billions s that is funneled into Pakistani terror apparatus by Islamic charities and Saudi Arabia to preach and train jihadis so that the Pakistani military and ISI leaders can lead luxurious lives. Most of the charities are fronted by liberal posing muslim leaders and helped greatly by people such as Arundhati Roy.

VIvek
Hyderabad, India
Dec 13, 2008 12:00 AM
35
9 is not 11 and Ms Roy is not an intellectual.

People from Pakistan are waging war on us because we are building large ' obscenely luxurious ' hotels while ignoring the plight of the poor.

Not surprising, considering most of Roy's ideas are ridiculuously over simplified. What's surprising is Outlook India (which I do respect) repeatedly foisting this dingbat upon India time and again.

It's time to realize just how empty Ms Roy's head really is.
Ninad Huilgol
Sunnyvale California, United States
Dec 13, 2008 12:00 AM
36
O,oh my God, why so much much late, Roy are you busy with Megha Patker doing some very important nuisance value movement?.Without your comments how can we understand tactics of bastrad U.S. diplomacy?Bravo go on people are very eagerly awaiting your most valuable abuse against U.S.lONG lONG LIVE U.S. deplomacy otherwise who can entertain to middle class fools
Ramesh Raghuvanshi
pune, India
Dec 13, 2008 12:00 AM
37
arundhuti knows everything, i like to see her as PM of india and hand over the country to mercy of good friends of her,yes don't forget to hide ur ''beautiful'' face under veil.otherwise ur friends may make u 5th bibi.
asis
arambagh, India
Dec 13, 2008 12:00 AM
38
I always request my wife not to accept OUTLOOK from the paper boy if she sees an article from Arunadhiti Roy published in THE OUTLOOK.Unfortunately she makes it a point that she does not miss the particular issue.
a k ghai
mumbai, India
Dec 13, 2008 12:00 AM
39
Narasimhan MG:

That was good posting on your part. The woman is nutty-the last page which I read had so many bloopers. For example her take on the US economy is flat out wrong.

The woman has vomitted. Outlook, which is never shy to publish garbage, has published it.
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Dec 13, 2008 12:00 AM
40
In a few words one can see what Miss Roy is saying: Islamic terror is bad, but there is also Hindu terror, and the Indian middle classes are not condemning it as vociferously as they are the Islamic terror.
Well of course they are not, because no sensible person, in their heart-of-hearts really feels that there is an equivalence in terms of number, type, range and frequency between the two. Nor in ideology. Islamic terror desires an Islamic caliphate and enforcement of Islamic laws, and pure Islamic states. Islamic terror also seeks the utter destruction of India, and many other non-Moslem countries as well.

Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Dec 13, 2008 12:00 AM
41
So AndhiRoy,
I was curious to read what you may have to say on attacks and apparently your message is;
1. Because India has poor and middle class in their own struggles we should forget that pakistani b@stards attacked us and that the attacking dogs were muslims - great
2) Because people don't agree with your Prashant Bhushan's idea so everyone is stupid!
You have to admit that the only real fact that you wrote this articled is to defend yourself and your ideas not because you love India or Indian people. I don't mind your ideas because every one in a democracy is free to express but then respect the ideas of the majority of Indians and just stay away from Indian and Indians. Your untimely and early literary success as awarded by West has made you think that now you are the greatest thinker ever born on this planet is not shared by a great majority of Indians. Sure your provokings get you tons of face-time on TV and fake-time in magazines but plueeeze now you are a repeating record desperate to be in public eye and that is shameful. Of course you may not understand that word because you obviously don't have a single patriotic bone but believe us you do come across as a shameless media whore.
escoss
delhi, India
Dec 13, 2008 12:00 AM
42
There is an English saying that a dog always returns to its vomit ... Roy has proved it again after her defence of Afzal ...
Vijay Agarwal
Northampton, United Kingdom
Dec 13, 2008 12:00 AM
43
It is irony of fate that in 1947 Muslims from India created a new Nation named Pakistan .The country was divided.

And within 60 yrs Pakistan has become a Nation which will be soon an architect and battle round dof of Third War or War of Cultures .Our own Indian Muslims 60 yrs back will be now responsible for the death of millions and destruction of many Countries .

WHAT Ex-Indan MUSLIMS HAVE ACHIEVED IN THE LAST 60 YEARS ? THEY HAVE BROUGHT DESTRUCTION UPON THEM AND THE WORLD OVER.
a k ghai
mumbai, India
Dec 13, 2008 12:00 AM
44
Dawn Pak has realised that Muslim Terrorism has become pestilence . But we have a few Sickoes like Arunadhiti,Neelab Mishra ,Anwar Patels who still talk of nacent Hindu terror and equate it with Muslim Terror which has become a scourge for the World.Whenever they write of Islamic Terror they must add Hingu Terrorism.

"The common enemy

GREAT statesmen, it is said, don’t just respond to public opinion: they shape it. In these troubling times when Pakistan is being called the “epicentre” of terrorism by our neighbours to the east, we have a collective responsibility to look inwards. But that burden rests most heavily on the shoulders of our elected representatives who should feel duty-bound at this critical stage to put into clear, concise words what it is precisely that ails this country. Most Pakistanis, an overwhelming majority in fact, do not support militancy or terrorism, yet a small fanatical fringe has come to dictate the agenda. Why is this so? Well, the fanatics are armed to begin with and also come equipped with greater zeal and ideological fervour than those of liberal bent. They can cause mayhem whereas the broad-minded can simply talk, or write. They also strike a chord with the disenfranchised for whom the state has done next to nothing generation after generation.

The resentment the powerless feel may be cloaked in anti-Americanism or religiosity but in actual fact it boils down to a class conflict. Becoming part of a militant or terrorist organisation empowers poor, impressionable young men. And it’s not just the weapons or the monthly stipend that give them comfort — finally they have an identity when previously they were faceless, they become part of a community in which they are respected. The uniform of militant Islam confers instant respectability in some quarters. The sole gunman captured in Mumbai, Ajmal Kasab of Faridkot, apparently first sought refuge from poverty in crime and then gravitated towards ‘jihadi’ outfits. As long as nothing is done to address the growing underemployment in this country, the militants will find no shortage of fresh recruits. At least that is the case in Pakistan. The radicalisation of middle-class Muslim youth in the UK or other parts of Europe can be attributed to numerous other factors, including race. American foreign policy and brazen double standards don’t exactly help either. Unresolved disputes such as Palestine and Kashmir can also be cited.

What the Mumbai assault has done in this country is divert attention from the internal threat to an external ‘enemy’. This must not be allowed to happen. Soul-searching is in order, and an acceptance of the fact that Pakistan is indeed a hub of militancy and terrorism. The prime minister and the president must inform the nation in unequivocal terms that what is past is past and that extremism, which has taken root in this country, will enjoy no sanction and will not be tolerated. It is sad, on one level, that it has taken external pressure to stir the government into acting against those who are besmirching our name in the world. We face isolation, and internal ruin, if the common enemy is not brought to book."cntd
Khushi Ram
ambala cantt, India
Dec 13, 2008 12:00 AM
45
Its necessary for our collective conscience to be awakened with a pointy stick of M/s Roy at times.It helps us not to become like the people we hate.The dislike whipped up against political leaders also will not do any good to our country.The alternative being tinpot military dictators whom we will never be able to get rid of.If we have an outspoken Rakhi sawant in entertainment and Laloo's in politics ,why not a Arundhati in Newspapers? Its always good to have an alternative point of view though we may not agree with it.
shyam sreekaram
Francistown, Botswana
Dec 13, 2008 12:00 AM
46
Even Civilians are seen capturing Kasab .Police did a wonderfull jon with sticks .


http://ishare.rediff.co...phone-cam-id-528140.php


On the other hands we have sickoes like Mishra and Arunditi-our real enemies who sympathise with our killers.
Khushi Ram
ambala cantt, India
Dec 13, 2008 12:00 AM
47
The way this woman is obliquely gloating at the killing of innocents by terrorists is a bit unsettling. Doesn't the word "compassion" exist in the lexicon of leftwing extremists? Bur how about Outlook's editorial discretion? Should an article celebrating -- however indirectly -- death and destruction be published? How about publishing articles that justify pedophilia and necrophilia? I think I should be prepared to see them as well in the pages of Outlook. Being contrarian is ok, Mr Mehta. But you have crossed the rubicon.
Narsing Gowd
Secunderabad, India
Dec 13, 2008 12:00 AM
48
Dear Mam,

While I respect your freedom of expressing your views, but I would like to point that you must have enjoyed studying in tablelamp light in your childhood and various other benefits which electricity brings to you.
Please do not stop development just to remain relevant.... if you want to really help the people who are displaced, please run a nationwide campaign to collect donations and help the displaced have a better life instead of opposing whatever minimal development activities are happening in India
Pankaj Sharma
Delhi, India
Dec 13, 2008 12:00 AM
49
i was waiting for this article,vinod mehta has done it again,she can anyone disgusting,pathetic but if someone else called her this thing they are rightist,capitalist,what else.
there is old syaing,wen u can't convince them,confuse them,if there is a war any time ,i m sure she wil be first to tamget india,media,army,
and if any of her family would have killed by terrorist then i will wait to see what will be her reaction
anurag narayan
delhi, India
Dec 14, 2008 12:00 AM
50
gentlemen

outlook will never change.

its the watering hole of the jehadis, and their
supporters.

just look at the editor-

vinod mehta- he does not hide his sympathy for
islam and his hatred for usa.

he has confessed his admiration for arrafat, muslim women, and presumambly islam in general.
.

arundhati roy is the same-

saba bhaumik, and the others recently employed are the same.

i am planning to start my own blog- and some
who are interested can send their comments.

i am tired by the islamic sensitivities of the islamic yahoo in this forum

the narrow mindedness, extreme paronia of the left in india, is similar to such groups in europe.

they are the baader meinhoff group in germany, and the red army fraction in italy. they killed
some of the elite in germany and france, but were
killed or imprisoned.

the survivors now express their failure on the
intellectual and practical plan.

we of the middle class who represent decency,
real secularism need not put up with these people.

i plan to make a small start-

how many here support my inititive.

let me know.

we need a name- any suggestions.

banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
Dec 14, 2008 12:00 AM
51
Educated/Thiagan,

>>>> "forcing us to look at ourselves in the mirror."
>> Please do it; you will find the face of child molestor, a rapist, looter and a killer of millions.

Except for religious hate, you have nothing to offer. Arundhati stimulates debate, you stimulate nausea!

>>>> "making us feel very uncomfortable in the process."
>> Not uncomfortable, I am alarmed by the incraesing brazeness of the traitors.

How can you, who have suggested that Muslims who remained in India should have been killed, or that Muslims in England should be dealt with by a Hitler, be alarmed by anything? Who can possibly be more brazen than you? No wonder Arundhati's article upsets you.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 14, 2008 12:00 AM
52
Oh, just after a nice Sat night dinner I had to come home and come across AD’s usual tedious twaddle.

I didn’t even want to throw up – far from being taken seriously she is now the butt of ridicule. Thanks to her rabid rantings and hypocrisy.

She as usual wickedly tries to justify wanton violence and blood lust of Islamists by a messy outpouring of verbiage.

But this vacuouos left wing bigot just does not get it.

Instead of SIDE A or B wait for vol II. The patience of the world is wearing thin.

The Islamists and their "Armies of the PURE" (like their CUNTries of the PURE - Pakistan) will get hit so hard that the sensuous paradise of the Jehadis will run out of virgins - such will be the toll.

THAT will be the real blowback. And it is going to come soon.

And, Arnab Goswami thanks for giving it back to the hateful pseuds like AD and her ilk - more power to you.
sandy
Mumbai, India
Dec 14, 2008 12:00 AM
53
Arundhati Roy's father was a hindu who married to a muslim woman. Her father was a bengali hindu. Her father divorced her mother. Arundhati Roy had to undergo sufferings in her life and she developed too much hates against all hindus. As hindus are more in india she hates India. As muslim represents pakistan and her mother is a muslim she loves pakistan. Gujarat riots were retaliation by hindus to muslims who had burned hindus alive in Godhra. Even 1000 hindus had been killed in Gujarat riots but media and seculars painted as if only muslims were killed.
There were some news that Arundhati Roy works for some terrorists organisation from backdoor. She gets paid for her work from below the table.
Mrs Bhanumati
Jhansi, UP, India, India
Dec 14, 2008 12:00 AM
54
"Arundhati stimulates debate"

That was a good joke.
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Dec 14, 2008 12:00 AM
55
Literary terrorist strikes again. Like any other terror attack, she certainly draws lot of attention. It is high time we start ignoring this sick minded leftist anti national. If people decide to ignore her articles, outlook will stop publishing it. Until that happens, it will be continued. I have stopped reading her articles. But going thr' few comments here, I get a picture what she has written.
Maha
NJ, United States
Dec 14, 2008 12:00 AM
56
"India on the other hand declared herself an inclusive, secular democracy. It was a magnificent undertaking, but Babu Bajrangi's predecessors had been hard at work since the 1920s, dripping poison into India's bloodstream, undermining that idea of India even before it was born."

This is a more plausible eplanation of the rise of Hindutva communalism than the one usually offered by the saffron brigade, namely that it was a reaction to the bugaboo of "pseudo-secularism". The latter was a deceitful creation and exploitation of the BJP, and was used to the hilt for political gains.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 14, 2008 12:00 AM
57
If it is justifiable to cite past injustices as a potential cause of the Mumbai outrage, then we are condemned in perpetuity, because it is impossible to turn back the clock. This sort of flawed reasoning also works right into the Sangh Parivars agenda, which can cite any number of Muslim atrocities during Mughal rule.
It should be remembered that all the causes being cited to explain or justify terrorism, whether state repression or poverty, are almost as old as civilization itself. It's only the response that is new.Butchering innocents non-combatants in suicide attacks is the most reprehensible tactic possible.
We shouldn't have to wait for root causes of terrorism to be solved before tackling terrorism directly, because terrorism is a far more dangerous and evil phenomena due to it's rejection of civil society and judicial measures for addressing grievances.
Abhishek Agrawal
Mumbai, India
Dec 14, 2008 12:00 AM
58
"So according to a man aspiring to be India's next prime minister, and another who is the public face of a mainstream TV channel, citizens have no right to raise questions about the police. This in a country with a shadowy history of suspicious terror attacks, murky investigations, and fake 'encounters'. This in a country that boasts of the highest number of custodial deaths in the world and yet refuses to ratify the International Covenant on Torture. A country where the ones who make it to torture chambers are the lucky ones because at least they've escaped being 'encountered' by our encounter specialists."

Arundhati does understand the Muslim angst well. This is in direct opposition to the majority in this forum who would not only reject the validity of the Muslim grievance, but would consider Muslim predicament to be fully deserved. This article is not going to go down well with this crowd!
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 14, 2008 12:00 AM
59
Anwar Miyan,

Can you give few examples of shadowy history of suspicious terror attacks that Arundhanti brings up. Just because she likes to think that way, does not mean it is true. She and her ilks ( including that idiot Pankaj Mishra from NYT) raised boogy about Chhatisghat massacre being handywork of indian army. It has been proved that they were wrong. She is still talking about suspicious parliament attack while supreme court has already convicted Afzal Guru.
You are free to challenge or raise suspicion if you have valid proof against it. But these big mouths have habit of propagating their opinions/propogandas as facts. They are not accountable for anything they say and have never apologized for their wrongs. These people serve well for average muslim who want to believe that 'a muslim cannot do anything wrong'.

I would believe indian police or even politicians more than these anti national lefists.




Maha
NJ, United States
Dec 14, 2008 12:00 AM
60
" country where the ones who make it to torture chambers are the lucky ones because at least they've escaped being 'encountered' by our encounter specialists."

I seriously would like to know where torture chambers are there in this country. All the communists, starting with Ms Roy must be dispatched there.
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Dec 14, 2008 12:00 AM
61
>> These people serve well for average muslim who want to believe that 'a muslim cannot do anything wrong'.

Malegaon has shown that the shoe is on the other foot!
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 14, 2008 12:00 AM
62
"I would believe indian police or even politicians more than these anti national lefists."

Amen!! Whatever the fault of the policemen, many of them are still willing to put their lives on the line to protect people. The commies, on the other hand, have a history of constantly working against the country they live in.

They are viruses. In every country except the USSR, commies have worked to undermine their own country to help USSR. Indian communists are no different. Just like the virus lives within the body and harms, commies do it to the country.

Ms Roy's predecessors have a long history of treason. And this woman just happens to have a bigger mouth than her predecessors.
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Dec 14, 2008 12:00 AM
63
wish this idiot called arundhati gets an islamic bomb under her house. what a waste of time she is.
namo4
London, United Kingdom
Dec 14, 2008 12:00 AM
64
The law minister said this

"The Minister said the country never thought that it will face terrorism to such an extent. "But now the time has come for really very effective laws," he said"

Just because Manmohan Singh and others were busy cutting vegetables in the Sonia household does not mean the country thought it will not face terror to this extent.

Who is to pay for the lapse in repealing POTA?? Or if POTA was so bad, then the failure to replace it with another law?

Will it be the maid who works in the Manmohan Singh household? Will it be Ramu the cook?

Because I am pretty sure Manmohan Singh is not responsible.
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Dec 14, 2008 12:00 AM
65
faruki,
"validity of the Muslim grievance"

muslim grievence started with a paedophile 1500 years ago and still continues. you have "grievence" against every religeon, every race etc. you will find any reason to kill. when you have no one else to kill then you will one of your own, just to keep in touch. your religeon is so bullshit that even to reason with you is waste of time. why don't you ask arundhati roy to go to paki land preach peace there.

talking about grievences, what about hindu gricenes?. i.e kashmir & bangladesh. you have an immediete orgasm when a hindu is killed by your tribe. bizzare religeon, bizzare people.
namo4
London, United Kingdom
Dec 14, 2008 12:00 AM
66
Terming her an over-ground terrorist could also be an under-statement. SHE IS A JIHADI HERSELF.
It's high time Indian media completely blacked out this anti-national.
Narayan
Zurich, Switzerland
Dec 14, 2008 12:00 AM
67
>> "Arundhati stimulates debate"
>> That was a good joke.

See, here you are wrong. She does stimulate debate; like who, between her and Praful Bidwai, is a bigger idiot and traitor.

My vote goes to Arundhati, though it was a tough choice.
Al Bundy
San Francisco, United States
Dec 14, 2008 12:00 AM
68
Rose/Bodepudi,

>> And those conclusions, are....

Worn out rants of a perfidious hate propagandist!


Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 14, 2008 12:00 AM
69
Anwar,

"Malegaon has shown that the shoe is on the other foot!"

A typical Anwar reply. I asked u to list the examples regarding suspicious terror attacks, you come up with this.
BTW which malegaon attack are you talking about ?
2006 attack was actually initially blamed on hindus by your countercurrents.org authors, but eventually police captured the muslim culprits.
The 2008 malegaon blast was never blamed on muslim and sadhvi and few others are being interrogated. They should be punished if they are found guilty.
Maha
NJ, United States
Dec 14, 2008 12:00 AM
70
Namo,

>>>> "validity of the Muslim grievance"
>> muslim grievence started with a paedophile...

Foul mouthed though you are, you are actually making the point I was trying to make in my post.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 14, 2008 12:00 AM
71
Ganesan,

I agree with you regarding anti national leftists. The part that I find amusing is their complete apologistic approach towards islamic terrorists. Whenever we have the terror attack from Islamists, they always have to bring RSS/VHP to justify the attack.

BTW I really enjoy all your posts and always look forward to it.


Maha
NJ, United States
Dec 14, 2008 12:00 AM
72
Rose/Bodepudi,

>> Hindus were and are the vistims of theocratic fascism and you can never cover up the Islamic terror under "secular" pretenses.

Arundhati should follow your example and become a hate pracharak like you!
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 14, 2008 12:00 AM
73
Arundhati Roy's father was a hindu who married to a muslim woman.
MRS BHANUMATI
JHANSI, UP, INDIA INDIA

No mam! Arundhati Roy's mother is Mary Roy, a Syrian Christian from Kerala, and a well known women's rights activist.
Azeem Taqi
Nashville, United States
Dec 14, 2008 12:00 AM
74
>> which malegaon attack are you talking about ?
2006 attack was actually initially blamed on hindus by your countercurrents.org authors, but eventually police captured the muslim culprits.

I understand that this is being re-examined.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 14, 2008 12:00 AM
75
"BTW I really enjoy all your posts and always look forward to it. "

Thanks!!
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Dec 14, 2008 12:00 AM
76
rose

it is enlightening to read pakistani new media.

aaa everyone very sorry about the mumbai massacres.

bbb then angry denials when india found the attack was by pakistani terrorists.

ccc pakistani govt refuses to accept india,s account of the killing. produce evidence they demand.

ddd when evidence is there for all to see, some
refute this as a cia, zionist, raw conspiracy.

eee after all evidence is provided, they say that no pakistani will be delivered for justice.

maybe usa should force pakistan to deliver the
criminals who trained and motivated the killers.

serbia has delivered many of their own war criminals to the international court of justice.
if pakistani,s refuse ,then economic aid should be stopped.

people like arundhati roy, the communists and pro islamic groups are behaveing in like manner.

they are minimiseing the crimes committed by muslims, and maximiseing the crimes done by the opposite side.

demolition of the babri masjid was bad , but it
has been blown out of all proportions by fanatic muslims. no one could have imagined that it would
have lead to mumbai killings by dawood ibrahim,
and then after this it has been an eye for an eye. muslims have not held back-

burning of the sabarmathi lead to the gujerat killings. after that the fanatic muslims have
now started an unending series of terror killings.

in defence of hindus, there would have been no
gujerat killings except for the train burnings.
there would be no malegaon revenge attack, if muslims had not started their terror bombings.

roy talks of the unfairness towards kashmiri muslims. these people are amongst few muslims who have the chance to elect any govt of their own choseing.

examples are many.

in punjab sikhs are in the driveing seat.

in naga land, and other states the christians rule the roost.

kashmiri muslims have had the same choice-which
they have rejected in favour of a terror campaign, and driveing the hindus out of the valley.

no others then hindus would have shown suck week kneed behaviour. the chinese would have handled the kashmiri muslims in quite another way- and
funnily a- roy and vinod mehta would not have let out a burp.

it hurts hindus, that after faceing terror attacks they meet denials,scorn and sneers from the pakistai english speaking elite.(and the roys and the mehtas.)

the isi and army is worse, and ofcource they are
the ones who are behind all the attacks on india,
includeing the bombing of the indian embassy in kabul.

however there is no point in debateing issues with roy. her mind was made up against hindu india perhaps from her early years. there are many like her. it is the same with most left wing
people and the proislamic groups.

i think it would be interesting to make a profile about say roy, to find out where she finds her inspiration. we know she hates hindu india, but what surprises me is her laid back attitude to islamic crimes and horror against women in those countries.

against fools and the mad,the gods themselves battle in vain.
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
Dec 14, 2008 12:00 AM
77
Arundhati Roy

YES. YOU ARE DISGUSTING.

You & Outlook are becoming insane. Stop writing this kind of CRAP.





Rajaram
Chennai, India
Dec 14, 2008 12:00 AM
78
Anwar said:

"should become a hate pracharak like you !"

Hey, when are you planning on talking about the fact that
In Pakistan minority Hindus have been reduced to just 2% today? (from 10% soon after independence in 1947) about the conversion and killings that go onunabated today? About the hundreds of temples razed after Babri masjid demolition?

Start your prachar now!

Oh wait we will get crickets chirping now won't we?

Speaking the truth is not hate prachar sir. Get a fair perspective bfore commenting.

Ninad Huilgol
Sunnyvale California, United States
Dec 14, 2008 12:00 AM
79
Yo Anwar Patel when you write"A blockbuster of an article, ..forcing us to look at ourselves in the mirror. .. making us feel very uncomfortable in the process."

You are right. All jihadis need to look themselves up in a mirror and it sure does make them uncomfortable to look at their ugly faces.

So are you and your jihadi freinds uncomfortable enough to throw away guns or better still turn the guns around and shoot themselves.

We have already seen that the dog who was captured in Mumbai is crying like a scared mullah, pissing in his pakistani islamic pants and spitting out information faster than the investigators can write
- so much for the jihadi courage.
Uncomfortable indeed.
you do look very uncomfortable, now if only you will just face the mirror....
escoss
delhi, India
Dec 14, 2008 12:00 AM
80
This if for Arundhati Roy:

I imvite you to an open debate with me anytime in the next 3 weeks.

I am an engineer, and actually was in support peaceful cessetion of Kashmir from India. After this Mumbai killings, no more. Your views are borderline insipid I am sorry to say. That's my opinion.
However I am open to free and open debate. I live in USA but on a visit to India currently. Name your time and place within 3 weeks if you are interested.

ninad_99 at hotmail dot com.
Ninad Huilgol
Sunnyvale California, United States
Dec 14, 2008 12:00 AM
81
Rose/Bodepudi,

>> the crimes of Islam ....

Arundhati should follow your example and become a hate pracharak and a liar like you!
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 14, 2008 12:00 AM
82
Rose/Bodepudi,

>> Gandhi would have said that Islam is theocratic fascism

Now you wish even Gandhi was a hate pracharak and a liar like you!
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 14, 2008 12:00 AM
83
>> when are you planning on talking about the fact that In Pakistan ...

It is not my country, but I have talked about it.

>> Speaking the truth is not hate prachar

Rose/Bodepudi has been carrying on his anti-Muslim hate prachar in this forum for over four years. He is a professional.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 14, 2008 12:00 AM
84
And this is for Outlook India Editor:

I had respect for your publication.
It was better than the sensationalism of other Indian
Media. ( your columnists KPS Gill, Rajinder Puri are fair, balanced) with this inexplicable fascination of Arundhati Roy (who I feel has outdone herself in terms of ridiculous if not
Oversimplified writings on serious issues) I am seriously thinking threre is no good Indian publication left.

Sorry to say, I am bidding good bye to Outlook India.

Ninad Huilgol
Sunnyvale California, United States
Dec 14, 2008 12:00 AM
85
Escoss,

>> All jihadis need to look themselves up in a mirror.

They should too. But Arundhati meant sanghis like you.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 14, 2008 12:00 AM
86
Congratulations to you and Mrs Roy for managing to turn the Mumbai massacre on its head and successfully converting it into a rant for everything India stands for.
Anil Kotwal
Adelaide,, Australia
Dec 14, 2008 12:00 AM
87
>> But Arundhati meant sanghis like you.

She always does, like any Jihadi sympathizer.
Al Bundy
San Francisco, United States
Dec 14, 2008 12:00 AM
88
anwar

I was predicting crickets chirping on the points I raised,
I was right wasn't I.

This is why, my moderate views on Kashmir
Are changing. Denial of Muslims about treatment
Of minorities in Muslim countries.

When can we have a Hindu president in Pakistan? Never I presume. When can a woman be a president in Saudi Arabia? Never I dare say.

And you guys talk about the plight of minorities in India.
How dare you.

India is not perfect. It's also not as horrible as madame Roy would like the gullible western media to believe.


Ninad Huilgol
Sunnyvale California, United States
Dec 14, 2008 12:00 AM
89
Ms Roy you simply suck.It would have been woderful if you had been in one of the Taj on that fateful day and from there you would have been liasioning for the terrorists.
You can still do it.
Can you take my one advice?
Just go to Connaught Place in Delhi and say who you are and see the public response.The number of footwears you will get as gift that your 40 generations will not need to buy it anymore!!

Please do not take it as any hate mail towards you but its my frustrations when I went through your article.
India is not yet perfect country and has to go a long way but that doesn't mean we should always find the fault there for self's so called intellectual gratifiction.Our country's spectrum is much more colorful and lively than your frustrated and contaminated thought.
Don't think yourself smart and just see what majority of people says about your illegimate views.
Indian
Perth, Australia
Dec 14, 2008 12:00 AM
90
rose

pakistan is a mulim country.

i believe it is fair to judge the mindset of muslims in india, by looking at the mindset of pakistani,s.

the behaviour of the pakistan english educated
elite is apalling, and makes me believe that we can never be friendly with them.

it is an open secret that the pakistani army and the isi are the backbone of militant islam. they
express no regrets, and have sneered at the recent action in mumbai.

i can not believe that hindus would do anything like this. killing not just hindus, but also
foreign people. the jews in nariman house were
special targets.

this was not a killing on the spur of the moment, for example in gujerat. it was meticolously planned.

the killing of the young rabbi and his young pregnant wife is a stain on humanity. i dont want
to hear what usa has done in iraq, or what the
jews have done in palestine. for once i would
like people to look into their own conscience.

i am convinced that roy does not care for humanity- not anyone at all.

however she knows how to hate- she has deep
psychological problems.

i think some one needs to study her personality and her record. i am sure that there are deep flaws in her personality and mindset.

no one should take her opinions seriously.
apart from being crazy she seems to have a mean streak in her.
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
Dec 14, 2008 12:00 AM
91
Pranab Saab is telling that -it is not Right Time for giving evidence to pakistan. Is he trying cover up something. Looks like some indian people also involved. agar kuch information hai tho dikhana. or else pranab is lying
Arundhati writen in August, in outlookinda that Bharat must give back Kashmir back to kasmiris and now she talking something else. kushwant singh, Vir sangvi also wrote in august same thing about kashmir. our jawans in kashmir are tired and they doing all kinds of rape, torture on local kashmiri, which is not right. Better for bharat to give back kashmir to local people there. let them decide if they want be with Bharat or not. kashmir is not our land. gandhiji did not get freedom frum british so Bharat can torure kashmiris. better we getout of kashmir and peace with pakistan.we have useless congress govnment
Aam Desi
Mumbai, India
Dec 14, 2008 12:00 AM
92
Amrican president obama is telling Bharat-Pakistan to setle kashmir peacefullly. i fell he is right about this. Amrica shoud force our netas to settle kashmir. our Netas have been lying abot kashmir sixty years saying kashmir hamara hai. kashmir is not owned by bharat or pakistan. the people over there want fredom and let them chhose as they wish. why do we bharat force kashmiri log.
why bharat crpf, bsf log are raping and torture kashmir peple. what right do we have. when pakistan doing same things rape etc in east pakistan, bharat told duniya, look what pakistn army doing. now we doing same nonsense in kashmir. what right we have torturin kashmir log?
better we get out from kashmir and let people over ther chooose to what they want. our netas all liars, sixty years they are lying about kasmir. our crpf, bsf are doing paap in kasmir. it is not right
Aam Desi
Mumbai, India
Dec 14, 2008 12:00 AM
93
>> you guys talk about the plight of minorities in India.

Every group talks about its own plight.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 14, 2008 12:00 AM
94
Yo Anwar Patel
Feel free to get out of your jihadi pants and don the Sanghi shorts, oops.... I forget you jihadis have no legs so it that short will be really be a pant for you. Maybe you are better off in burqa just like the one your pee sized brain is.
escoss
delhi, India
Dec 14, 2008 12:00 AM
95
Anwar

'everyone talks about their plight'

Yeah question is how fair and balanced that talk is.

Still no response about my 'talk' regarding treatment of minorities
In Muslim countries from you.


Ninad Huilgol
Sunnyvale California, United States
Dec 14, 2008 12:00 AM
96
LearnedThiagan,

>> Hatred starts from the verses.

Except for religious insults, you have nothing to offer. A sure sign of poor upbringing.

>> You have already approved the slaughter of the Hindus in Pakistan and B'desh.

What a shameless liar!

>> The followers of Islam deserve the same barbaric treatment that they mete it out to others in muslims countries.

That's a barabaric statement by itself! What do Indian Muslims have to do with what goes on in other countries? It is your own sadistic impulses that you try to phrase in supposedly acceptable terms. You want India to have Saudi Arabia or Pakistan as models! You truly must hate India.

>> More fireworks from the religion of peace.

Is chatter on Al Qaeda websites the material for idiots like you to comment on a religion? Would Sadhvi's taped conversation regarding her motor cycle indicative of the nature of Hinduism? How come you are such a dope?
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 14, 2008 12:00 AM
97
Corrected post:

LearnedThiagan,

>> Hatred starts from the verses.

Except for religious insults, you have nothing to offer. A sure sign of poor upbringing.

>> You have already approved the slaughter of the Hindus in Pakistan and B'desh.

What a shameless liar!

>> The followers of Islam deserve the same barbaric treatment that they mete it out to others in muslims countries.

That's a barabaric statement by itself! What do Indian Muslims have to do with what goes on in other countries? It is your own sadistic impulses that you try to phrase in supposedly acceptable terms. You want India to have Saudi Arabia or Pakistan as models! You truly must hate India.

>> More fireworks from the religion of peace.

Is chatter on Al Qaeda websites the material for idiots like you to comment on a religion? Would Sadhvi's taped conversation regarding her motor cycle be indicative of the nature of Hinduism? How come you are such a dope?
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 14, 2008 12:00 AM
98
Escoss,

As I had expected. You turn out to be quite brainless!
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 14, 2008 12:00 AM
99
[>> All jihadis need to look themselves up in a mirror.

They should too. But Arundhati meant sanghis like you.]

I think she meant both of you. And a few other bright sparks. jmho. of course.
Zafar
Sydney, Australia
Dec 14, 2008 12:00 AM
100
Anwar

Waiting for a response for the third time:

Do you feel minorities get treated as good in countries like Pakistan, Saudi Arabia (which is the seat of power for all Islam no less) and Bangladesh.

Yes or No.

I don't justify violent acts against minorities in India.
I expect you to own up to what happens in majority Muslim neighbors of India from whom brain washed idiots come to India commit barbaric acts and then justify that becoz they feel their community is not being treated right in India.

It's a fair question do you agree.
Ninad Huilgol
Sunnyvale California, United States
Dec 14, 2008 12:00 AM
101
Ninad,

You must be new to this forum. I have condemned the treatment of minorities in Muslim majority countries innumerable times. Minorities do best in democracies, especailly those committed to secularism. My quarrel is usually with those who would like to see India backtrack on either of those two attributes.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 14, 2008 12:00 AM
102
What a b****!

Ashwin
Jersey City, United States
Dec 14, 2008 12:00 AM
103
The article was seven pages of crap no action plan , no solution just seven pages of her pet themes Hinduvta ,communalism .....
I mean i could have believed in her statements and lauded them if she would have been considered as fair .

For example she is the first one to defend any of the arrested Islamists in any bombing case but in the maelgaon blasts case she was consipiciously silent .
If she had taken up both cases we could have conclude her as a civil rights activisits actions against a police state , but sadly she comes acrosss as a an apoligist , psuedosecularist
dheeraj
trivandrum, India
Dec 14, 2008 12:00 AM
104
Learned/Thiagan,

>>>> "What do Indian Muslims have to do with what goes on in other countries?"
>> When muslims fight for causes not related to India like Danish cartoons, Iraq war...

Muslims will take out processions and shout slogans when the Quran or the Prophet are insulted. If you really expect them to do the same to support minorities in foreign countries you know neither muslims nor human nature.

>> I am not the author of the verses.

But you are the ill-bred moron insulting the Quran and the Prophet. This is your full time retirement activity! You must truly be a bore, besides being an idiot.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 14, 2008 12:00 AM
105
Thank you, Arundhati Roy and _Outlook_ for trying to inject some sanity into this madness.
Anuradha Ramanujan
Gainesville, FL, USA
Dec 14, 2008 12:00 AM
106
Arundhati roy is great writer. she is sayng things correct, cannot put it bettr. somebody has to write truth. it is not liked by many but, we need to see why this things happend in Mumbai. look at in mirror as Arundhati says. who is suffering, not our Netas, only common man in Mumbai. Kerel CM is calling Major who died, his family as Dog! idiot kerela CM
Vir sanghvi aur Khushwant singh saab also wrote abour freedom for kashmir in august of 2008 on outlookindia. Mumbai incident is all about kashmir problem. our netas dont want solve kashmir problem. why is bharat wasting our money on kashmir. we dont train Mumbai police, they sayng no money is there, but we wasting some 25,000 rupees for each kashmiri evry year. kashmir is burning, our crpf, bsf log are raping kashmir women and doing torture on people over there. our netas sab chor, jhoot bol rae hain ki kashmir hamara hain. kasmir never was indian or pakistan. those people want fredom from both. agar kashmir hamara tho, why we negotiating with pakistan. sixty years and same nonsense going on. gandhiji never got freedom from britsh so we can tortur kashmiri log. what happened to our great hindu dharma. we need new leaders. all this Sonia, manmohan advani modi better resign- iresponsible people, who donot want solve any problem. no way we can go war with pakistan. Kya nucler war lad sakte? total stupid. we need to solve kashmir and then only we can have real peace. we need new leaders like obama saab in america. meanwhile common people are suffring.
i see some people from foregn writing nonsense in outlook.talking rubish. once you people took visa and went to foregn you no longer indian. you all hipocrits, enjoyng in america, europe and you pretend be indian, talking abour war and such nonsense. hipocrits, who left india and faning flames
Aam Desi
Mumbai, India
Dec 14, 2008 12:00 AM
107
Those who reflexively reach for the "Muslim Grievance" tape and play it loudly and endlessly whenever terrorists massacre hundreds of innocent people need to read the following lines by Tavleen Singh:

"Another thing that is of paramount importance is to discourage the sense of grievance that has been so carefully cultivated among India’s Muslims by our supposedly ‘secular’ political parties. Yes, there are far too many Muslims living in terrible poverty and degradation. But, for every Muslim who is poor and deprived, there are three Hindus. They do not rush off and start killing innocent people in the cause of some barbaric religious war.

"While it was reassuring to see the Leader of the Opposition and the Home Minister in total agreement during last week’s debate on terrorism, we need to acknowledge that the problem will not be solved just by better intelligence or better trained policemen. It goes deeper and its roots lie in religious schools that teach small children that their God is better than anyone else’s. This kind of teaching is routine in the average Indian madrassa and reaches colonised heights in the Darul Uloom, which looks as if a bit of Saudi Arabia has been shipped to Uttar Pradesh. India is not Saudi Arabia. Our values are different, our idea of religion is different. We must fight to preserve these differences."


http://www.indianexpres...ts-of-terrorism/398234/
R Chauhan
SF Bay Area, United States
Dec 14, 2008 12:00 AM
108
By allowing a raving Anti Hindu B_tch like Arundhati Roy to comment on the Bombay massacre, Outlook is insulting the memory of each and every victim of terrorism.
gaurav
out west, United States
Dec 14, 2008 12:00 AM
109
Let it be known that Arundhati Roy is NEITHER a Bengali NOR a Hindu. She is a rabid Hindu hating Malayali ( Kerala ) Christian who hides behind that perfectly good Hindu name ( claims her father was Bengali ) to throw bombs at the majority religion and organic culture of India.

By her biased anti Hindu rants Mariam ( Arundhati's true name ) has demonstrated that she is ILLEGITIMATE and does not belong in India.

gaurav
out west, United States
Dec 14, 2008 12:00 AM
110
9 is not 11, November is not September. Numerologically it shows that this writer is writing thru the subconscious. This has to be 11 is not 9, if Nov is not September. This can be clearly seen as the 1984 anti Sikh riots has been missed out in the essay. The essay went as far as 1992 1993 , but failed to go to 1984. Ask any psychologist , what the subconscious reveals. Pat the answer will be , grudge and hatred.

Now if an Arundhatakshari is going on , with the author on a throne surrounded by Ex, present ISI officials and the mayhem (LeT) brothers. How will the lyrics go?

Hamid Gul : Kabhie, Kabhie Arundhati
thu likhthi ho tho acha lagta hai.
Jaise ki Pakistan me mehkta phool
barastha hai
EX ISI &
present
brothers
in chorus : Thu likhti hai tho hamesha
acha lagta hai
LeT
chief : Hey Gulbadan , Hey Gulbadan
Phool ke mehk katu ke chuban
Pakistan
Foreign
Minister : Jo wada kiya tho nibhana
padega
Arundati : Roke , Jamane chahe , mujhe
paise banane , kuch bhi likna
padega.

Prashant Bhushan : tere dwar kada ek jogi.
(Special invitee) Na mange sona chandi ,
tere dwar kada ek jogi
Arnab Goswami : Kya se kya hogaya, tere
(arrested invitee) kalam se, chalo suhana ,
karm hai apna , mana ki tu
kya hai (raising a finger)
The essayist fumes at this exalted lyrics. The essayist leaves her throne and launches a la Sholay song " Ha, jab tak hai jaan, mai likhugi , mai likhugi" All join in chorus with Arnab Goswami reminscing about the raunchy pages of " Goddess of Small things" which made it sell well in the West.




gajanan
Sydney, Australia
Dec 14, 2008 12:00 AM
111
Excellent article by Talveen Singh. Lot has been talked about so called muslim grievance. There is no justification for killing of innocent people so brutally. In fact many of muslims caught are very well educated.
Maha
NJ, United States
Dec 14, 2008 12:00 AM
112

http://www.guardian.co....12/mumbai-arundhati-roy


This article( Verbatim) appeared in " The Guardian" a day earlier. It has not been acknowledged in the end of the article.
Is not Guardian in Outlook.
Or Is it Guardian is already a Guardian,
why not have a Outlook.
gajanan
Sydney, Australia
Dec 14, 2008 12:00 AM
113
Thanks for posting the Tavleen Singh link. She hits bulls eye.
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Dec 14, 2008 12:00 AM
114
Mariam ( Arundhati Roy ) is a miserable one p trick pony. She seems to cook up controversies ( anti - Hindu rants ) just to divert attention from the fact that she has failed to write a single novel since her debut novel which was mostly about her incestuous sexual relationaship with her own brother.
gaurav
out west, United States
Dec 14, 2008 12:00 AM
115
This woman is mentally deranged and totally insane. Her writings are garbage and her talk is verbal diarrhea. She is is hindu hater christian witch.
Jitendra
Melbourne, Australia
Dec 14, 2008 12:00 AM
116
Roy, the Booker prize novelist, has transcended her equanimity, decency, and civility when she is cruelly blaming departed Mohan Sharma for ‘executing terrorists‘ while ignorantly accusing‘ controversial encounter at Batla house. It is beyond disgrace for any Academic to support those Delhi terrorists , just because they happened to be Muslims. Besides, she lacks basic knowledge in International law and a minimum historical perspective on J& K because of writing ‘brutal repression in Kashmir’ or ‘military occupation‘. Kashmir terrorists are made in Pakistan, a safe heaven and sanctuary of terrorists as known world wide. She must be reading Pakistani Newspapers and Jihadi websites that use these words and these papers adore her every day because she wants to liberate Kashmir from India. She needs a bit of background information on Kashmir: H.V.Hudson, The Great Divide, Atheon, N.Y. 1971 . All experts on International law have concluded that Kashmir does not qualify for independence.
India is a country that has not just tolerated her anti national stance, but has embraced millions of invaders, has gave shelters to Parsees, Christians, Jews, and others for centuries. According to a Chinese diplomat, India has never sent a single soldier to conquer territory, yet her civilization is every where. India’s fifty million Muslims do need her absurd , foolhardy writings, they are bright, dedicated Indians who have contributed as Presidents, Chief Ministers, Chief Justices, Ambassadors, and other high positions except the rank of Prime Ministers and several hundreds of intellectuals. Terrorists are educated, employed professional , not raised in bastis. The Prime Minister was proud to say : India has more than 150 million Muslims but not a al Qaeda terrorists.
nirode mohanty
huntington beach,california, United States
Dec 14, 2008 12:00 AM
117
Bitch has spoken..
Rahul
Delhi, India
Dec 14, 2008 12:00 AM
118
I was astounded by the wealth of perverse logic in Ms. Roy’s article but then, perhaps I shouldn’t have been. She seems to imply that India’s problem with terrorism, much of which can be shown incontrovertibly to originate in Pakistan, is due to the imperfections of Indian society. It is a little like blaming a robbery victim for the crime because he doesn’t measure up to some ideal. Does she really think that if overnight India were solve all its (admittedly real and recognized) problems of poverty, income inequality and marginalization of low education/income groups (both Muslim and non-Muslim) and the issue of Kashmir, the terrorist problem emanating from Pakistan would disappear? If she does, there is a bridge I would like to sell to her. The extremists operating in Pakistan with the connivance of the real power centers there and funded largely with Saudi Wahhabi money, want nothing short of a Caliphate in South Asia and beyond. Yes, India should strive to be a more perfect society but let us not conflate that with the issue of containing terrorism from Pakistan.
Kamalesh Banerjee
Stamford, USA
Dec 14, 2008 12:00 AM
119
Learned/Thiagan,

>> This is not the empty and boastful chatters; they reflect the barbarism of the mental framework of the followers and announce the future course of their action.

So they announce the future course of their action on internet chat! Do you have any brains at all?

>> other groups go about rectifying the problems in a reformist mode; only Islam blames others for their shortcomings.

Other groups like the Meenas and the Gujjars, or the Maharashtra Navnirman Sena, or the Bodos? Do you have any sense at all as to what you are saying?

>> Even Gandhiji was aware of the violence of Islam.

The question was whether Gandhiji was a hate pracharak like Bodepudi (and you). You remark was irrelevant.

>> There is a problem; the shoe does not fit and hence the seculars are cutting the feet (about malegaon).

Do you think that was a clever comment, you dope? It is dumb.

>> Why the followers of Islam is looked upon with hatred and fear?

Partly because of Muslims, and partly because of hate pracharaks like you. The sangh parivar has been spreading hate since 1920. Their efforts may be paying off.

>> If muslims in India protest on Iraqi bombings and on the suffering of the Iraqi people, it is their responsibility to protest on the ill treatent of Hindus in muslim countries.

Indian Muslims protest for "Iraqi Muslims", so Indian Hindus too should protest for Bangladeshi Hindus. Do you want Muslims to protest for everybody? (Muslims protested for Iraq because of insults to the Quran in Abu Ghraib prison added to their hatred for Bush).

>> I merely quote the verses.

You are carrying on a sangh-sponsored hate war against 150 million of your countrymen because you are a detestable gutter rat.

>> Muslims who remained in India should have been killed, or that Muslims in England should be dealt with by a Hitler.

This is the true face of Hindutva terrorism. You are as different from Hindus as Al Qaeda is from ordinary Muslims. You are the slime in the gutter. And you are also retarded.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 14, 2008 12:00 AM
120
Learned/Thiagan,

>> its roots lie in religious schools that teach small children that their God is better than anyone else’s.

There are a lot of idle hypotheses. Nothing proven. "Their God is better than anyone else’s" is not really an Islamic belief, because according to Islam, there is only one God. Evangelical Christians have strong beliefs of Jesus being the only savior. These things cannot be really evaluated by half-assed hate merchants like yourself.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 14, 2008 12:00 AM
121
I fully agree with the author that our political and bureaucratic leaders have always used the law as per their own liking. In the process many innocent people have been victimised. There is no denial that there is oppression on the Muslims in India. It is also true that the Muslims are themselves partly responsible for it.
Having said that, justful use and success of an Ani-Terror law will always remain a question as long as we have these corrupt and incompetent politicians and babus at the helm of the affairs.
Probably the solution is that the educated, value-oriented people belonging to the middle-class should come out in the front and form a political party. This, will probably see the birth of a new India.
D. Bhattacharjee
Mumbai, India
Dec 14, 2008 12:00 AM
122
to everyone- and especially roy, and her friends.

I am prepared to look in the mirror any day.

Haveing spent most of my life in Europe, and in
touch mostly with europeans I have never denied
the ills that exist in India.

Accepted the truth of Sati(no longer the done thing), families sleeping on pavements, and holy cows walking the streets of metro cities.

Can one honestly blame anyone for all of this.

Can muslims honestly claim that they are being
shamelessly opressed in India. Or more to the point are they being made to suffer deliberately.
Are they much worse them others, for example in Bengal where fellow bongos leftists are in charge.

Regarding Kashmir, I advocate that Kashmir valley be allowed to leave the union. However
lets look at the situation from another angle.
Why dont kashmiri muslims vote the separateists into power. Thats how this kind of affair has been solved -eg Canada.

Fellow leftis have not allowed Basques to form
a Basque country- any comment from Roy.China
keeps Sinkiand under tight control, and Tibet as well. Any comments from Roy.Ditto in Russia.
Chechnya has been bombed into submission.

I am convinced that Roy, Mehta have a agenda of hate for Hindu India. The mistakes and injustices in India-admittedly huge- are maximised and the faults of communists states and muslims in general are minimised.

This behaviou is the result of a mindset which is the mirror image of criminal leftis organisations which have plagued various parts of the world.

aaa Beider Manhoo in Gernamy about 30 years ago
bbb Red army fraction in Italy
ccc Basques terrorists
ddd The shineing path in Peru
eee The tamil tigers

plus the muslim groups
fff Hamas and Hezbollah

and many others.

Roy,s opinions are based on her personal disappointments, and for this she has sought out
the Hindu religion and Hindu people as the cause for all her problems.

The same goes for the editor of Outlook, and the
various talentless journalists and guest writers.


No body in Europe could convince the various
leftist terror groups- they were ultimately captured, imprisoned and killed in action.

This is unlikely with these psedu revolutionaries. Roy lives in a huge house in Delhi, does not cycle around town, and all her friends are in high places.

I dont think any one can debate with Roy and prove her wrong.

I took notice that whilst there was a great uproar after the killing od Rev Staines and his two sons(I was equally enraged) there was complete indifference to the killing of the Swami and his followers in Kandhamal.

Likewise no one has written a word about the killing of the Rabbi and his wife. No mention that of the little boy of 2 years they left behind. It shows a perverted mindset-

I feel that there is need for an alternative
media in India- Free of leftist semi intellectuals- Such kind of people are no longer
in existence in Europe.

Europe has had a dreadful experience under communist rule- and most of the former communist
ruled states are stubbornly anticommunists.

However none of them took recource to terrorism.
All the Baltic states, Poland , Hungary, Checqia,
Slovaki , and others are free. No teror, no killing of the communists who had been so foul
in earlier times.

Roy like many Indians have not learned from the European experience. And most vital, they refuse
to learn.

They enjoy hateing their opponents, and nothing
what so ever will change their minds.

They have sympathy for muslims and leftist govts
like China. They would not last long in these countries, if they dared to insult them as they do us.

However to prove I am wrong , let Mehta and his team take a sabbatical in Pakistan- along with
Roy, Bhushan and all their other troubadours.
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
Dec 14, 2008 12:00 AM
123
Dear Ms Roy,

Kindly refer to your well crafted, laudable essay, published in The Outlook dated 22 Dec 2008.
Kindly allow me to say that one expected some equally laudable conclusive suggestions rather than another suffocated voice of dejection.

You have pointed out that these young men simply want to put an end to everything – including their own lives; which may be correct in an extreme context like this. However – whatever superb be the indoctrination, no one wants to die.

Hence solution lies in not taking care of their ‘Do roti’ and ‘Kapada’ but reaching to the core of making them learn or want to learn to earn those do roti and kapada with self respect. This needs thinking- not too much of it but with detailed assiduous work, which you can bring about.

And mind you this is the third and first choice. You at least can’t afford to raise hands – disgust is not for the gutsy – it is of the clumsy. Which one is you – decide?

Gopesh K Gupta
Delhi/NOIDA, India
Dec 14, 2008 12:00 AM
124
After Chadrayaan-1,

Mr. Zardari (10%), Gilani, LET masood, JUD Hafiz meet to discuss indias probe to moon.

Hafiz: how can india terrorise us by sending a probe to moon (Remember according to islam CHAND is their holy object) when we them( india)attack on earth, this is cheating, we have to go to UN with protest.

Zardari: dont worry we will ask AQ KHAN to become father of SPACE program (he can import tech from china and korea and become its father as in earlier cases).

Masood interrupts: so that we can be the first country to put a "terrornomer" ( equal to astronomer but with a AK47 & a chinese grenade)on moon and kill all the infidels & their satelites.

Gilani puts in: ya.. we can show the world what we are capable of.

Hafiz protests: according to islam we have to do ULTA if others send rocket & man to space why cant we send rocket and "terrornomer" below earth.

Hamid Mir, Geo TV joins in: we will whip up all the sentiments about this project, if we suceed w will say we have over taken the world and included moon also in our list to export our holy warriors. if it fails we will attribute the failure to HINDU-MOSSAD-ZIONIST sabotage.

They try to send the rocket named "JIHAD" with "terrornomer" but it fails. (DOWNWARDS to the earth)

INDIAN english media, Rajdeep Sardesai: Mr. Modi sabotaged pakistani space program, we have to consider this as terrorism on pakistan, poor country it is devastated. whole of BJP, RSS, VHP, HINDUS are mainly reponsible.

Manmohan Singh: madame sonia gandhi is deeply hurt because of modi's act of terror on pakistan, we will extradite him to pakistan to stand trial.

" Indian People never think how Mr. Modi is reponsible for this, they never think"
venkat
bengaluru, India
Dec 14, 2008 12:00 AM
125
Dear , darling Arundahti. How can u do this to these warriors in the net/tv.Every one was feeling comfy ,having done their bit of war on terror on the net,tv.And now this cat you let loose among the net pegeons. What a spoilsport.
MANISH BANERJEE
KOLKATA, India
Dec 14, 2008 12:00 AM
126
"Because Islam is a barbaric majority and an impossible minority."

Nicely put.

Since this is so true, as every Islamist outrage demonstrates, can the CLASH OF CIVILISATIONS be far behind?

PS: I am tired of waiting.

**

"After Chandrayaan". Good one, Venkat.
sandy
Mumbai, India
Dec 14, 2008 12:00 AM
127
WILL SOMEBODY STOP THIS B*T**h! TRAITORS LIKE HER AND THE MAGAZINE LIKE OUTLOOK ARE THE TRAITORS OF THIS COUNTRY THEY LIKE TO SEE THE COUNTRY WEAK AND WOULD WANT TO SEE PEOPLE OF THIS COUNTRY EVERYDAY AT THE BUSTANDS,TEMPLES,HOTELS ETC.. AND WANT THEM TO GO ABOUT THEIR DAILY BUSINESS AS USUAL AND THEY DARE NOT BLAME THE PERPETRATORS OF THESE CRIMES. IRONICALLY ANYBODY WHO DARE QUESTION THESE TERRORISTS OR ATTEMPT TO PROSECUTE THEM BECOME "TERRORISTS ".
shankara
bangalore, India
Dec 14, 2008 12:00 AM
128
After 8 pages I still find the first couple of paras as the only ones sensible. An entire film industry is dominated by the "minority community", at least two generations of successful businessmen in Bombay alone (look at the Bhora community) and they are still a persecuted lot with no hope? Bull shit! They are Indians with Indian hopes and aspirations and are as much persecuted by the Indian bureaucracy as any other Indian individual. So please stop depicting any, and I mean any, community as a persecuted lot.
Some questions though pertinent will be, to my eyes, irrelevant. The Indian police, for instance, was raised by the British as the muscular arm of the British political establishment in India, meant to silence the opposition. That is what they essentially still are since no one has thought of completely overhauling the Indian Police Act. How on Earth can one expect them tp do anything but muddle investigations, torture, etc? As to the NSG, don't lash out at a bunch of poorly armed soldiers who do not even have their own transport and had to be brought in in BEST buses. They would give their lives, even for you, you know. Lastly, just like believing the establishment and falling for every nationalistic/jingoistic stance of the politicians doesn't make one an Indian, questioning everything and doubting all tdoes not make one fair., secular of for the people.
Aninda Sardar
Calcutta, India
Dec 14, 2008 12:00 AM
129
Hi Arundhati

If you dont like India AS IS TRANSPARENT FROM YOUR RUBBISH ARTICLES and the ways YOU behave, please give up YOUR INDIAN CITIZENSHIP AND MIGRATE TO to Pakistan/PakOccupied Kashmir. If you have really the guts why don't you preach to your terrorist pals in Pakistan-Lashkar e TABAH or Jammat ud ZEHAR (not dawa)pAKISTAN ARMY ANMD YOUR PET ISI. You are a blot and shame for all Indians!PLEASE LEAVE INDIA/BHARAT/HINDUSTAN WE DO NOT LIKE GADDARS LIKE YOU BUT ARE NOT INHUMAN AS YOU TO KILL PEOPLE WE DO NOT LIKE OR BETTER GET EXAMINED BY THE BEST SHRINK IN PAKISTAN AND I WILL PAY THE MEDICAL BILL!

BHARAT MATA KI JAI
JAI HIND
ALL INDIANS ARE UNITED TO FIGHT TERROR IRRESPECTIVE OF CASTE/CREED/RELIGION/WEALTH EXCEPT LEFTISTS/COMMUNISTS LIKE THE ABOVE
Ram
Singapore, Singapore
Dec 14, 2008 12:00 AM
130
Let us understand one thing very clearly. Asking the Pakistani government to throw the Jihadis overboard is like asking Manmohan Singh or his pal Arjun Singh and Karunanidhi to throw Quotas – that only enrich the rich backwards – overboard. What is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, isn’t it?

I am indeed happy that Quota politicians are now scared. I am praying that Zardari throws an atom bomb on these Quota politicians in Delhi who have destroyed this nation. Maybe good people will die; but that is the price one has to pay to eradicate the quota. A quota afflicted man is truly a pervert extraordinaire. He sees treason as a trifling offence.
siddharth
Chennai, India
Dec 14, 2008 12:00 AM
131
Jakir Hussain is a patriot Muslim and is better kind hearted human being .He is worth than thousands of Teestas,Arunadhities,Anwars,Neelab Mishras the India haters.

"2nd person who helped Baby Moshe escape: Zakir Hussain

The second person who helped Baby Moshe escape: Jackie alias Zakir Hussain
Lahore gets ready for the final game in Lucknow
CST announcer who saved lives rewarded
Remembering Dec 13 and those who died in line of duty
Father-daughter story crosses the Hindu-Muslim divideMumbai: A Muslim youth who worked for a Jewish couple, cooking orthodox kosher food for dozens of Jews each week, Zakir Hussain, or “Jackie” to the world, is still struggling to come to terms with the worst night of his life — the Terror attack on the Chabad House Jewish centre in which his employers, Rabbi Gavriel Holtzberg and his wife Rivka, were killed.

While the story of Sandra Samuels, the Holtzbergs’ nanny who was in the building and managed to escape with their two-year-old son Moshe, has made international headlines, the ordeal of Zakir Hussain, who shared her 13-hour ordeal standing between two refrigerators while intermittent firing continued, is little known. Zakir is in hiding on the advice of investigators.

Breaking his silence in a telephone interview to The Sunday Express, he said: “We never believed anybody could harm our saheb. I kept thinking that if those people wanted money, saheb would give it to them and ensure the safety of the guests, madam and Moshe.”

Zakir, 23, belongs to Banga, a small village in Badarpur, Assam, and came to Mumbai like lakhs of others, looking for a job and a better life. He started off as a helper in a grocery store until the opportunity to work for the Rabbi and his wife came up.

Zakir developed a deep bond with “saheb and madam” who “taught me so much”, a bond so strong that he says he wants to go back to Chabad House when it re-opens.
We came out of the store-room at 11 am and saw the destruction, slowly making our way through the broken glass and pieces of concrete. We were near the stairs when we heard Moshe’s cries. Sandra and I then went up to the second floor. While she went in and picked up the baby from the room, I stood near the stairs,” he said. Baby in hand, the two fled the building, never looking back. Zakir, who identified the bodies of the hostages after the siege ended, is still trying to get over the nightmare. “I am just waiting for the Chabad center to be rebuilt. I will go back and work. I want to continue working there in memory of my saheb and madam who gave me so much.”


http://www.indianexpres...e-zakir-hussain/398336/


Khushi Ram
ambala cantt, India
Dec 14, 2008 12:00 AM
132
When I read "GOD OF SMALL THINGS", I did wounder as to how such silly book got the Booker Prize. Now I am convinced that Arundhanthi was given the Prize by "sponsors" in return for perpetual contribution to the dismemberment of India. But what does OUTLOOK get out of publishing such articles?????
Akil
Bangalore, India
Dec 14, 2008 12:00 AM
133
"Pak’s new fig leaf: ‘Indian mullahs,’ Samjhauta probe

And has made a surprise reference to the “influence” of Deoband clerics over tribal warlords engaged in a civil war in its North Western Frontier Province.

In his speech during the debate on terrorism in the UN Security Council on December 9, Pakistan’s permanent representative to the United Nations Abdullah Hussain Haroon said: “I would request my friends in India to recall that when the Friendship Samjhauta Express was burnt down with Muslim passengers killed on their way to Pakistan, fingers were pointed hastily at Pakistan but later it was proved that an Indian Army colonel was involved.”


"Then drawing a link between Deoband and the fighters in NWFP, he said, “Some of you here may not be aware where this matter has taken root in a very deep way...led entirely by the mullahs in India in Deoband...I am not pointing a finger, I am coming up with a very good suggestion. It is for the clerics in Deoband, who wield great influence in the North West Frontier territories of Pakistan and in FATA, to come to Pakistan, get together and embed, offer a fatwa in Pakistan against suicide bombing and killings of Muslims in Pakistan and also in India.”

“I think it would have a very important effect in the North West Frontier Province and in fact (on) the most powerful politician in that province, Maulana Fazal-ur-Rehman who also owes his obeisance to Deoband,” he said.

These comments have drawn angry reactions from India. The Government has maintained that since investigations into the Samjhauta train blasts were ongoing and all aspects including the possible involvement of locals was still under probe, it was wrong to conclude the involvement of an army officer or the non-involvement of Pakistani elements. "

Congress Govt is full of fools .It wanted to equiate Hindu Terror with Muslim Terror for Muslim votes.

2. Regarding Deobandi Mullas the truth is that they are considered World over as the Theologists of Islamic Jehad.They have brought upon India the HRadline Islam by negating Sufism the true face of Seculae Islam.

It is the fault of Congress that they gave all the liberties to Deobandi Madrassas since 1947.Congress hoped Deoband will bring Muslims into main stream . Reverse happened .In the bargain now Jehadi culture is upon us.

Peerbhoy used to earn Rs 20 lacs .Very few Indians earn this amount.Still he became the member of the Indian Mujahidins under influence Tadical Islam and who killed thousands of Indians.And Peerbhoy is not the only one who turned Terrorist under influence of Deobandi Radicalised Islam
Khushi Ram
ambala cantt, India
Dec 14, 2008 12:00 AM
134
Khushi Ram
ambala cantt, India
Dec 14, 2008 12:00 AM
135
"Just 10 MPs pay homage to Parliament attack martyrs

NEW DELHI: Just two days after displaying a rare unity in the fight against terrorism, barely ten MPs turned up on Saturday morning at a function Prime Minister Manmohan Singh pays tributes to the martyrs of terrorist attack on the Parliament, on the occasion of its 7th anniversary, at the Parliament House in New Delhi. " Times of India
Khushi Ram
ambala cantt, India
Dec 14, 2008 12:00 AM
136
Arundhati Roy may well be the greatest writer and speaker of our time. She has done so much for all of us. Although I have never met her, I will never forget her.
Donald H. Veach
Cambridge, USA
Dec 14, 2008 12:00 AM
137
Wow! Such hatred for Arundhati Roy ! Funny too, how most of the right-wing windbags live in Amreeka !! Hardly anyone is debating her ideas, instead just ranting like little twits. Just takes a few straight words from a woman to make so many of these males feel so thoroughly castrated. Pathetic wusses ! "The Learned"- Get a life, dude!
shadyiyengar
Baroda, India
Dec 14, 2008 12:00 AM
138
If I understood what Arundhati says from her longish, boring article is that America should not have hit back at the Islamic killers. Having hit back America is therefore paying a heavy price and it has become “a hated nation” on this earth. Therefore it should have avoided going to war in Iraq and Afghanistan and maintained its prestige.

If this is what Arundhati says then it is not only shameful but outrageous sickening. Chamberlain said the same thing as Arundhati is saying now. The latter said war is not a solution for bringing in peace and went on to appease treacherous Hitler. What happened? Hitler was emboldened and ran amock killing millions.

If we do not fight the terrorists then the terrorists will spit on our faces and on people like Arundhati saying “Insha Allah, the enemies are cowering; let us hit them where it hurts them most and finish them off.”

An Evil and TREACHEROUS religion like Islam understands only one language and that is counter-violenc. These devilish child-molesters for whom killing of kafirs is mandatory will run and hide in the gutter if counter attacked. Once they are in the gutter it is time to knock them off. We have to fight. Either it is the terrorists who lives or it is us. We can not bleed to death. If not why bother to maintain an impotent army, navy and airforce? Even an army of eunuchs are better at least they do clap forcefully.
siddharth
Chennai, India
Dec 14, 2008 12:00 AM
139
If I understood what Arundhati says from her longish, boring article is that America should not have hit back at the Islamic killers. Having hit back America is therefore paying a heavy price and has become “a hated nation” on this earth. Therefore it should have avoided going to war in Iraq and Afghanistan and maintained its prestige.

If this is what Arundhati says and suggests then it is not only shameful but outrageously sickening. Chamberlain said the same thing as Arundhati is saying now. Chamberlain said war is not a solution for bringing in peace and went on to appease treacherous Hitler. What happened? Hitler was emboldened and ran amock killing millions.

If we do not fight the terrorists then the terrorists will stand up and spit on our face, including that of Arundhati, saying “Insha Allah, the enemies are cowering; let us hit them where it hurts them most and finish them off.”

An Evil and TREACHEROUS religion like Islam understands only one language and that is counter-violenc. These devilish child-molesters for whom killing of kafirs is mandatory will run and hide in the gutter if counter attacked. Once they are in the gutter it is time to knock them off. We have to fight. Either it is the terrorists who lives or it is us. We can not bleed to death. If not why bother to maintain an impotent army, navy and airforce? Even an army of eunuchs are better. At least they clap forcefully.
siddharth
Chennai, India
Dec 14, 2008 12:00 AM
140
This is what Sir Winston Churchill said on Islam:

How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy.


The effects are apparent in many countries. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live.


A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement; the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property, either as a child, a wife, or a concubine, must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men.


Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities, but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it.


No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science, the science against which it had vainly struggled, the civilization of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilization of ancient Rome.

siddharth
Chennai, India
Dec 14, 2008 12:00 AM
141
test
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Dec 14, 2008 12:00 AM
142
ShadyIyengar, you haven't refuted any of the points of the so called rightwingers, nor supported any of the points of the so called leftwinger Arundhati Roy.
Actually many posters have argued and refuted Roy's nonsense. Roy's fundamental postion is simply this: Yes, Islamic terror is bad, but the Indian state and Hindu groups are equally bad. And unless India gives up the Moslem majority state of Kashmir, and imposes the same restrictions on Hindu organisations that it does on Islamic ones, it should expect more Mumbai-like incidents in the future. Wonderful philosophy.
Many of us are at pains to explain that it doesn't really matter what the Indian government does or what this or that Hindu individual or group says or does. The Islamic terrorists and Pakistan will target India as long as India is what it is: A dynamic, pluralistic Hindu majority country, which, despite its thousand-and-one problems, is highly accomplished and headed for more wonderful achievements in the future. The Lashkar-E-Toiba, Al Qaeda and the Pakistani military cannot accept that.
Incidentally, I am a left liberal, but not one so blinded that I will equate the actions of derelict Hindu groups or individuals operating in very specific locales, with Islamic terrorists and the threat they pose to India and the world.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Dec 14, 2008 12:00 AM
143
Yo ShadiIyngar - Without giving any logical explanation (ok I understand that you may not have heard logic or explaining) you make comments and therefore prove what a dumbass you are. I know it may be painful for you but if you could take out your head from your ass, you may see some light.
escoss
delhi, India
Dec 14, 2008 12:00 AM
144
I did not read thw whole essay. There is just no point.

First, she is too full of herself.

Second, she harbours deep seated hatred towards Bharat in general and Hinduism in particular.

She totally fits the description of the enemy within.
Pradip Singh
stafford, uk
Dec 14, 2008 12:00 AM
145
my head is literally spinning! what is Ms.Roy trying to say ? lets not retaliate, respond - simply stay put, while 1000s die - no matter what, lets accept it all with meekness - is that it ?? arent we already doing that ?? by not responding, doing anything to stop these attacks, are we not as a nation, continously failed to save our citizens, which is exactly what Ms.Roy is suggesting in a veiled fashion ?? impoverished muslims being driven against the wall !! by whom, who stopped them from going to school ? college ? arent there provisions for them to get educated and get jobs ? is anyone stopping them from doing so ? is anyone stopping them from thinking rationally and integrating with the rest of the country/world ? is it the fault of ordinary people like me that a hideous spectre of illitereate muslims being blindly misled by a bunch of irrational clerics is going on for a decade or so, while a bunch of self-righteous journalists like Ms.Roy keep advising pacifism as a response ?? arent we already pacifist enough to the point of being lame and timid ? I just do not get the point of what this intellectual is trying to say
Madhan
Bangalore, India
Dec 14, 2008 12:00 AM
146
Pradeep,

If I use Anwar miyan's vocabulary, she is hate pracharak. She hates anything Indian with hinduism root. She is just following her mentor's ( Carl Marx ) views. She is no more worse than these brainwashed jihadists
Maha
NJ, United States
Dec 14, 2008 12:00 AM
147
ShadyIyengar:

Why you have the hots for this birdbrain Roy?
25 pages full of points discussing the deep logical flaws in Roy's and all you can come up with is a crass and insipid remark.

You MUST have hots for Roy not to notice!
Ninad Huilgol
Sunnyvale California, United States
Dec 14, 2008 12:00 AM
148
If Arundhati Roy feels Bharat is such a terrible suffocating place, has she considered moving to the pious land across the border wehere she may be able to breath more freely.
Pradip Singh
stafford, uk
Dec 15, 2008 12:00 AM
149
"MARATHA TAMIL
CHENNAI INDIA"

I am glad the brutal LTTE thugs are being paid back in kind.
sandy
Mumbai, India
Dec 15, 2008 12:00 AM
150
Dear Ms Roy,
I feel sorry and pity for you; you live off the crumbs off dewy eyed western media and fans and spew hatred about your country and country men.
I like your sob story about the villages and bastis of india; but remind me didn't you have a hair cut in Vidal Sassoon a few years back or don't you jet around the world mud slinging at indians and India while staying at such iconic hotels like the Taj? Spare us , please your tears!
Further what have us poor Hindus done to you to be at the receiving end of your poison pen...that the Lashkar head incites his followers to establish an all muslim state in South Asia and to kill Hindus escapes your attention while you focus on democracy; you refuse to acknowledge forcible conversions or crimes against hindus. Tell me one muslim state which allows human rights or freedom of religion? By focusing your poison pen on 80 million Hindus each and every time you are exposing your pea sized brain and your biased views and you infact are contributing the most to poison the atmosphere! You are a fundamentalist of the worst kind because people like you spew hatred, can't tolerate any view other than your own and you are the kind that gives rise to dictators...I am sure you will be a wonderful one!
And if you have a right to express your opinion and exist then so does the RSS and the Methodist church and the Deobandis in democratic India. Think about that...
Nivedita Barthakur
London, UK
Dec 15, 2008 12:00 AM
151
NIVEDITA BARTHAKUR

>>>>You are a fundamentalist of the worst kind because people like you spew hatred, can't tolerate any view other than your own and you are the kind that gives rise to dictators.

Well said.
Pradip Singh
stafford, uk
Dec 15, 2008 12:00 AM
152
>> 25 pages full of points discussing the deep logical flaws in Roy's...

This forum is infested with hindutvadis. Many come out of the woodwork whenever Arundhati's articles appear!
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 15, 2008 12:00 AM
153
We Indians, instead of all our problems, we have achieved Great Things. Hindus, Jains, Buddhas have achieved great things in past which are enviable to West, even today. Ayurved, Yoga etc.,
Now even modern days we have achieved great things. Now think without shit heads like Roy, we can achieve what more things. To hate hindus is acceptable at any other time. But when our nation is attacked, real bad time to attack them. We are bleeding. They attacked us even before godhra, even before ayodhya. Much, much before that. So, they would have attacked for any other reason. I rembmer in my town (Davangere, Karnataka) muslims condemened these attacks. I fear now This Roy has left with no audience. To whom she is talking? For laskar or any other terrorist? If so, me must quitly cross border, go there. They will be blessed to serve this holy soul.
srinivas
davangere, India
Dec 15, 2008 12:00 AM
154
Yawwwwn.....

Yet another Pakistani sponsored terrorist attack on Indian citizens and Arundirty quickly puts out a rant blaming India and Indians.

Unsurprisingly, musalmaans from India and pakistan on various forums are giddy about such blame shifting.
lookout bug me not
mumbai, India
Dec 15, 2008 12:00 AM
155
Learned/Thiagan,

>> The problem arises when you claim and seek to prove the claim by violence that only your God should be there and all the others should disappear.

Who is doing that? Do you think Al Qaeda and LeT are trying to force their God on you? Do you think Ghori and Ghazanavi, the gold seekers, were trying to teach you who the true God is? Spreading Islam by the sword has become a historical shibboleth, but the actual truth was probably no where near to what you say. You will of course keep bringing it up, because your sole goal in life is to keep hate alive.

>> I will requst Winston Churchill...

If you need quotations from a firebrand racist who hated Indians, and who was a 25 year old unknown hack when he wrote it, then you must be a total moron. The fact that terrible things were written about Hinduism by some Scottish missionaries a century ago does not make it a bad religion. Why do I have to keep writing the same answers again and again to respond to the stupid stuff that you keep on repeating?
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 15, 2008 12:00 AM
156
Rose/Bodepudi,

>> Is Islam itself the problem?

In the minds of the morons like you! Actually you are a lot worse than a moron. You have actually advocated murder and genocide in this forum. You were unethical enogh to try to post messages in this forum using my ID! You are a fraud.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 15, 2008 12:00 AM
157
Last couple of days of contributions from the religion of peace....its hard to publish such a list every other day for any other religion's activists...except of course for Islam...

[12/13/2008 (Miranshah, Pakistan) - Islamists slit one man's throat and shoot another to death.

12/13/2008 (Basilan, Philippines) - A woman is among three people murdered in their home by Moro Islamists.

12/12/2008 (Yala, Thailand) - Three border guards are killed when Islamic militants open up on them with automatic weapons.

12/12/2008 (Pattani, Thailand) - Jihadis kill a man and seriously injure two others with a planted bomb in a karaoke bar.

12/11/2008 (Matta, Pakistan) - Tehrik-e-Taliban terrorists gun down three locals.

12/11/2008 (Helmand, Afghanistan) - Religious extremists trick a 13-year-old boy into carrying explosives to British troops, which were then detonated remotely.]
lookout bug me not
mumbai, India
Dec 15, 2008 12:00 AM
158
Learned/Thiagan,

>> Why internet;

Because you are the moron who had posted internet chit-chat!

>> They at best go on strike, call for bandhs, burn buses and damage raoilway tracks. They do no not go about killing people to propagate their religion.

Do you even know what the topic was, or do you just spill your poison irrespective of the context? Have not people been killed in the disputes I mentioned, namely the Meenas and the Gujjars, or the Maharashtra Navnirman Sena, or the Bodos. The subject was about groups making demands, not about religion. It is so difficult to argue with a dope.

>> There is no Sangh parivar in Europe.

Europeans have the worst record possible in the treatment of the minorities; 1000 years of persecution and slaughter of Jews. Their record in persecuting Indians living in Europe is even worse. I am referring to the Gypsies.

>> So we also say deny fundamental rights to the followers of Islam in Hindu India, Christian West and Buddhist China.

Only retards like you poisoned by the VHP say that.

>> You have to fight hate with hate.

That may be the doctrine of the VHP, Abhinav Bharat, LeT and the Al Qaeda. You are revealing your true colors.

>>>> "Muslims who remained in India should have been killed, or that Muslims in England should be dealt with by a Hitler."
>> I did not say that.

You had said exactly that in your earlier posts, and I just quoted your words back to you. So don't try to wiggle your way out of it. You are no different from those goons in LeT or Abhinav Bharat. You are the worst of the worst among Indians.

>>>> Minorities do best in democracies, especailly those committed to secularism."
>> Left unsaid: That is why we muslims never have democracy and secularism in any of the muslim countries.

I expressed my preference on what I would like to see. But what does a murderous hate machine like you have to do with either democracy or secularism?
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 15, 2008 12:00 AM
159
Anwar:

You said you advocated better treatment of minorities in majority Muslim countries. Then you write, qouting my post that most of the 25 posts are by hindutva proponents coming out of the woodwork.

So you support Roy's view?

Amazing. I thought you were more sensible than that.

Is defending your religion paramount and transcend any need for rational dispassionate analysis?

Do you feel there's any logic to Miss Roy's thinking in this article?

Please elaborate.
Ninad Huilgol
Sunnyvale California, United States
Dec 15, 2008 12:00 AM
160
faruki

what is your opinion of pakistan.

are muslims responsible or is it others for the mess there.

indans distrust pakistanis, and except for a
few ,most indian muslims most are similar to them in their way of thinking.

these are facts.

i agree there is no point in reminding you of this. it just sends you off into your usual
harangues.


i know nothing we say will make sense to you. like the pakistani,s you are not prepared to accept ground realities.

all i know is that is no fun haveing your kind of people in our society, however good or bad it may be.i would not brag about hindus, but its a simple desire amongst us to have a liberal secular society without bigoted fanatics.

this desire is shared by europeans, americans, australians. instead of testing the patience of
these countries, progressive muslims must try and build an islamic shangrila somewhere.
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
Dec 15, 2008 12:00 AM
161
Ninad,

>> So you support Roy's view? ....Do you feel there's any logic to Miss Roy's thinking in this article?

People like Prashant Bhushan and Arundhati Roy are not journalists, and do not write balanced or comprehensive articles to broaden our knowledge base. They are Point-of-View (POV) polemicists who are focussed on certain injustices. They prick our consciences and make us see aspects of ourselves which we do not like to see. They write in the tradition of Emile Zola or Jane Addams. While one would not go to them for a treatise-like treatment of a subject, they serve a useful purpose in national dialogue.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 15, 2008 12:00 AM
162
Rose/Bodepudi,

>> What"s Your ID? "Theocratic Fascist"-"Goebbels.

don't try to throw dust in our eyes. You are a proven cheat, hate pracharak and genocide advocate.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 15, 2008 12:00 AM
163
Useful purpose of provoking dialog?

I think there are better ways to do that. Anyway I think I understand you better now.

I think she brings out the worst in people, which is what happened to me too. I am rarely as riled up as I was when I first read her article. Full of her usual self, and absolutely lacking in basic human fairness required when treating a serious tragedy.

Well it makes people like you to defend vehemently and few others to publish worst of a religion. I have seen this happen time and again. I don't think there's any real benefit out of this marathon slinging sesssions.

Ninad Huilgol
Sunnyvale California, United States
Dec 15, 2008 12:00 AM
164
It seems the mongrel-Arundhati Roy has crawled out from under a stone to spout anti-Hindu tirade.She is nasty Christian crusader who needs to be shipped to a Harem in smelly Saudi Arabia.She has no place in India.
Hriday
London, United Kingdom
Dec 15, 2008 12:00 AM
165
I read the article named 9is not 11 by arundhiti with mixed feelings. I feel that she has disintegrated into a most disreputable intelectual farce. I do not understand how your esteemed journal can allow her to use tax payers money as all the news papers and jounals get subsidy. There was no reason to equate the home grown discontent with the foreign grown implanted terrorists. I for one have never agreed to hindu fundamentalism. I live in U.K. ( and after 30 years i am still an indian citizen )and i have gone through the personal experiences of pitfalls of ethnicity. I continue to follow the law of land. Because of the colour I am at higher risk of being suspected by police than a native white. There are more blacks and asians in jail as a percentage because of more conviction by the court. In this country also pakistani muslims are involved more in criminal activities than other asian communities.I do not think muslims should have a different law to suit their religionin india. I do not think muslims are being persecuted as much as an upper cast hindu in some states, thanks to late V.P.Singh. God saw to it and justice was done as not many people came to know that he is dead. I believe, arundhiti should thank herself that she lives in a democratic india and not in china or for that matter in pakistan. I will suggest her not to get carried away with righteous views which has failed and disappointed the pseudo intellectuals like her. I will prefer to go civil war way so that rogue elements of the country will be flushed out eventually. I beg to differ with her analysis completely. I regret to say that many people in india might start to question her sincerety & loyalty to the country.
satyendra jha
merthyr tydfil, United Kingdom
Dec 15, 2008 12:00 AM
166
There are 31 pages of comments, so I'll try to keep this short.

Ms Roy - you say "Side B believes that though nothing can ever excuse or justify terrorism, it exists in a particular time, place and political context"

It is clear that the perpetrators of this particular act were not disgruntled Indian minorities (though they may have been abettors with or without knowing the larger plot). So I don't see how the time and political context of this one can include dams, US and a whole lot of other topics that you hold close to your heart and bring up given half a chance.

The real shocker is this comment of yours "The RSS has 45,000 branches, its own range of charities and seven million volunteers preaching its doctrine of hate across India". You may have disagreements about the organization's (and its top/middle leadership's) policies, views and deeds, but to insinuate that every one of its millions of volunteers is a hate monger is such a completely insensitive, incorrect, malicious and uninformed comment that it takes out the last vestige of objectivity from anything you might have to say. While your eternally controversial views might have had the remote chance of sparking some contrarian thinking, sweeping comments such as these are the ones that truly make "Fox News seem like a left wing radical".
Bharat Rao
New York, United States
Dec 15, 2008 12:00 AM
167
Also, Ms Roy, you say "We've forfeited the rights to our own tragedies". You have, in fact, devoted the first couple of paragraphs questioning the "9/11" analogy to "11/26". There seems to be as much outrage at the analogy, if not more, than at the incident itself. Like it or not, "9/11" will be the analogy for any large-scale act of terror that targets random innocents where the perpetrators get traced back to the pool of global islamic radicalism. 9/11, after all, was the largest such in the recent past. Don't see the need to waste a lot of words on nomenclature that would come to most people naturally.

Bharat

http://eone.vox.com
Bharat Rao
New York, United States
Dec 15, 2008 12:00 AM
168
9 is not 11
Fart is not shit.
Arundhati , what came first , fart or shit.
Oh!! she thought , those guys just farted loudly to deafening noise on arriving at the Gateway of India. You never know , her new novel may be
called " Misunderstanding Farts" with preface by by Neelabh Misra, titled" The evolution of arse holes and the delusion of loud fart emissions"



gajanan
Sydney, Australia
Dec 15, 2008 12:00 AM
169
Excellent essay by Arundhati Roy. The fact that she says what she says so clearly and persuasively obviously enrages the latent fascists in the audience.
Vine Sivan
Kolkata, India
Dec 15, 2008 12:00 AM
170
It is quite revealing, though not at all surprising, that Ms. Roy compares Mr. Advani to Hafiz Sayeed. That Ms. Roy chose Outlook to preach her doctrine of hate against those who do not agree with her is not surprising though. Outlook has had a long tradition of giving platform to people who have justified the wanton killing of civilians by terrorists by bringing up the bogey of 'communalism'.
Ankan Kumar
Columbus, USA
Dec 15, 2008 12:00 AM
171
Rose/Bodepudi,

>> "Secular" Fascists, in cohorts with Theocratic Fascists are the ones throwing dust into the collective Hindu Eye.

Nobody is as fascistic in this forum as you and Learned/Thiagan. You will never be able to cover up the fact that both of you are low level hate propagandists.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 15, 2008 12:00 AM
172
usually her articles always passionate. this article i think was a bit more balanced.

she just quitely asked Indian authorities n Indian people to make a choice a) Rule by Law
b) or with Corruption / Stoking Religious sentiments descend into a Pakistan like situation.

sure we need to hang Ajmal n the Lashkar-e-Toiba since there is enuff proof they have done.
but dont forget the Sadhvi n the Colonoel Purohit. just because they did not kill in front of TV but by putting bombs in bikes.n dont forget to prosecute the people who are encouraging the Sadhvis n the Purohits be they Chief Ministers or Prime Ministers.

isnt it time the RSS embraces every person having an Indian Passport instead of immediately opening mouths to say Hindu - Buddhists - Sikhs are 1 brother hood while Islam - Christians are another brother hood simply because the people who discovered that religion were not born in India.

do we need to wake up in the next life to realize God all gave us a Simple Message - Love n Tolerate your Neighbour (without thinking of his Religion). If he Slaps you back, do not Worry , he will face the consequances of attacking GOD's child without provocation.
r
d, d
Dec 15, 2008 12:00 AM
173
If I understood what Arundhati says from her longish, boring article is that America should not have hit back at the Islamic killers. Having hit back America is therefore paying a heavy price and has become “a hated nation” on this earth. Therefore it should have avoided going to war in Iraq and Afghanistan and maintained its prestige.

If this is what Arundhati says and suggests then it is not only shameful but outrageously sickening. Chamberlain said the same thing as Arundhati is saying now. Chamberlain said war is not a solution for bringing in peace and went on to appease treacherous Hitler. What happened? Hitler was emboldened and ran amock killing millions.

If we do not fight the terrorists then the terrorists will stand up and spit on our faces, including that of Arundhati, saying “Insha Allah, the enemies of Islam are cowering; let us hit them where it hurts them most and finish them off.”

An Evil and TREACHEROUS religion like Islam understands only one language and that is counter-violence. Hit the bastards as hard as you can and these devilish child-molesters for whom killing of kafirs is as mandatory as giving charity for Hindus will run and hide in the gutters. Once they are in the gutter they can be destroyed with acetylene oxide pumped into their gutter holes and knock them off. We have to fight live. Either it them or us. We can not bleed to death. If not why bother to maintain an impotent army, navy and airforce? Even an army of eunuchs are better. At least they clap forcefully.
siddharth
Chennai, India
Dec 15, 2008 12:00 AM
174
I think it is a fantastic article. Thanks GOD there are people, who can voice theor opinion. I agree with you AR.
Pinaki Basu
Sydney, Australia
Dec 15, 2008 12:00 AM
175
Arundhati is not against the hindus. She is against the hindu terrorists who are as bad as muslim terrorists. These hindu terrorists ran amuck in Kandhmal and Karnataka and they have something to do with Malegaon blasts. and who can forget Gujarat riots? And strangely BJP is not against muslims. They are grateful to muslims because of whom they can hope to win elections. BJP's enemies are as follows Congress,Congress and Congress. Have you forgotten how Advani praised Jinnah and how Vajpayee started off buses and trains to Pakistan until Gujarat riots happened? How Pakistanis showoered love and affection on Advani inspite of Babri demolition and Gujarat riots. They are both a mutual admiration society dependent on each other.
pear
mumbai, India
Dec 15, 2008 12:00 AM
176
Why does Arundhati have to support convicts and demoralize the police? Why does she always relieve herself in the press with her pseudo-intellectualism ? At a time when we need to unite strongly, why does Arundhati feel a need to go BJP bashing and provide further reasons for the various grievances of terrorists? In a way, Arundhati is linking the two issues and infact saying that we cant stop people like Kasab as long as we have people like Modi. This is precisely the logic of the LeT and JeM etc. It is a shame that magazines like Outlook provide acres of coverage for Arundhati and co. If only we can find some way of shutting her out from the press or extradite her to Pakistan
Chitrakaar
Hyderabad, India
Dec 15, 2008 12:00 AM
177
Arundhati is not against the hindus. She is against the hindu terrorists who are as bad as muslim terrorists. These hindu terrorists ran amuck in Kandhmal and Karnataka and they have something to do with Malegaon blasts. and who can forget Gujarat riots? And strangely BJP is not against muslims. They are grateful to muslims because of whom they can hope to win elections. BJP's enemies are as follows Congress,Congress and Congress. Have you forgotten how Advani praised Jinnah and how Vajpayee started off buses and trains to Pakistan until Gujarat riots happened? How Pakistanis showered love and affection on Advani inspite of Babri demolition and Gujarat riots. They are both a mutual admiration society dependent on each other.
pear
mumbai, India
Dec 15, 2008 12:00 AM
178
Not sure if this has been posted. An excellent article


http://www.thesundayind.../editorial.asp?pageno=1


"And pampering and useless tolerance of the wrongs of any community, when it comes to the nation’s security, is what is the sure recipe of 26/11s and the reason behind India’s fate today. This is exactly what doesn’t let governments in India take rightful actions. Because their fear all the time is that if a Muslim bomber is hanged, a Muslim terrorist is interrogated, a Muslim-majority locality is searched, either they will lose their vote banks or – according to their illiterate definitions of secularism – not remain ultra secular."
Al Bundy
San Francisco, United States
Dec 15, 2008 12:00 AM
179
Maybe the Article can fetch some average grade in Primary School level.

It nauseates me to see the people like this author churning out senseless venoms insulting an injured nation, trying to gain so called 'self-actualization'. Hello, I am not here to learn History, Geography and semantics according to this author. And two wrongs cannot make a right!
Arun
Bangalore, India
Dec 15, 2008 12:00 AM
180
>> The terrorists did not distinguish between poor and rich.

There seems to be a deliberate plan behind the choice of targets. By targeting people of various nationalities, they do not want to differentiate between rich, poor, hindu, muslim, Jew, christian etc. Their enemy is not based on such factors, but everyone who is a willing participant of a political system that they oppose (humanist, secular, democracy) is their enemy. The humanist, secular democracy is the greatest threat to islamism threatening its total decimation.

>> If you were watching television you may not have heard that ordinary people too died in Mumbai
>> The Indian media, however, was transfixed by the rising tide of horror that breached the glittering barricades of India Shining and spread its stench in the marbled lobbies and crystal ballrooms of two incredibly luxurious hotels and a small Jewish center.

The media bias towards the rich/elite is obvious, but there is a reason why the Taj/Oberoi/Nariman house are significant. The attack in these places where they held ground for 60 hrs showed the planning, sophistication and the strength of what a handful of well trained men can do. This is a demonstrable proof that they can attack places of much higher importance like defense establishments etc which will be disastrous. This is a warning of the imminent danger, not just for India but for the entire world. That is the reason why the entire world took stock of what happened. The author does not seem to have taken due cognizance of the seriousness of the issue and the implication of what happened in Mumbai.

Apart from this, the author is perfectly right in condemning all anti-human elements.
Kumar
Bangalore, India
Dec 15, 2008 12:00 AM
181
Learned/Thiagan,

>> why muslims avoid democracy and secularism, still remains unanswered.

They will get there by jerks and starts. Turkey is democratic and secular. Malaysia is democrtic, but has recently taken some backward steps on the secularism front. The same is true for Indonesia. By most reports, the recent elections in Pakistan were fair. Sanghis and zionists have tried to create stereotypes and cliches about whether Muslims are ready for democracy. Lawrence Pintak of the University of Michigan writes, "These stereotypes and clichés belie the reality that democracy is already an increasingly important form of government in the Muslim world. Poll after poll reveals the same conclusion: Muslims favor democracy. The World Values Survey found that at 87 percent, support for “democratic ideals” was marginally higher in Muslim countries surveyed (which did not include Saudi Arabia) than in the West, with some countries polling as high as 99 percent, ten points above the U.S. The Pew Global Attitudes project[8] and surveys by pollster John Zogby[9] have found much the same thing. “The people of the Muslim world overwhelmingly want democracy,” concluded researchers Pippa Norris and Ron Inglehart, after examining data from 100,000 individuals in 72 countries. In fact, a majority of the world’s Muslims now live under governments that came to power through at least nominally democratic elections. This reflects the reality that only 15 percent of Muslims live in the Arab world, with well over half concentrated in four countries – Indonesia, Pakistan, Bangladesh and India – headed by elected leaders."

This of course will not stop you or Bodepudi from wagging your deceitful tongues.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 15, 2008 12:00 AM
182
Rose/Bodepudi,

>> Hate against whom?

You do not know whom the RSS shakhas direct their hate against? Whom is your hate propaganda directed against?
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 15, 2008 12:00 AM
183
What more Ms. Roy could have added to her nearly complete treatise (9 is not 11) is that a war is often a solution to recession. It destroys the extra capacity, including the human resources and creates fresh demands.
Aniruddha Sen
Mumbai, India
Dec 15, 2008 12:00 AM
184
Arundhati should preferably migrate to Pakistan or Saudi Arabia where she can get a better perspective about the religion of peace.
Rupesh
Pune, India
Dec 15, 2008 12:00 AM
185
That Arundhati Roy's rationalization of mass murder continues to find legitimacy in the pages of respectable publications like Outlook is proof of the fact that we have learned nothing from the massacre in Mumbai.
V Rajan
Chennai (Madras), India
Dec 15, 2008 12:00 AM
186
Thank you Ms Roy. You actually have polarized the debate. Now even fence sitters are jumping in and taking sides. The RIGHT side. You and the rest of the secular brigade of liberal left loonies are actually pushing more hindus to vote for BJP.

BTW, since BJP benefits from your articles, should the police investigate them? Are you on BJP payroll? In fact, I seriously think Arun Shourie is writing these articles under your name.
Kiran Bagachi
mumbai, India
Dec 15, 2008 12:00 AM
187
Anwar miyan
"Arundhati does understand the Muslim angst well."

Sure. What YOU, her and others like you don’t understand is Hindu angst. You paid for it many times over in Gujarat, when you coolly burnt a bogey full of men, women, and children, you will pay in future.

You guys are no less hate pracharaks! Fundamental muslims do so through madarsas and “liberals” like you do so through your mails and stupid articles, which do nothing but polarize people further and make hardliners out of fence sitters.
Kiran Bagachi
mumbai, India
Dec 15, 2008 12:00 AM
188
Anwar, Learned et al,

As far as adopting democracy as the basis of governance goes, different groups have taken their own times to come around to accepting that the will of affected people gives a better result to our aims for our life in this world.

Ultimately, we all have to move from the concept that our life and it's conditions are 'ordained' to the concept that we may arrive/ be born today to a condition, but can always collectively better it for ourselves and for our coming generations.
I find the mail of Anwar very valid and worth acknowledging on the passage of Muslims to this goal.

In fact, this too is a very competitive situation-and let the followers of those 'religions' which give them a feeling of being better placed on this totem pole realise that they may get overtaken by the late starters if they are complascent on giving Democracy within their group.

I am sure the followers of Hinduism would accept the merit of this suggestion.
Atul Chandra
mUMBAI, INDIA
Dec 15, 2008 12:00 AM
189
“Arundhati should follow your example and become a hate pracharak like you!”

She already is. She spreads hate against India, her army, her police, her middle class people, US, UK, Israel…her list is longer than ours…

But who cares anyways what she (or you) think? In fact, you should be worried about what WE think, what an average middle-class hindu thinks.
Kiran Bagachi
mumbai, India
Dec 15, 2008 12:00 AM
190
Bagachi,

>> "Arundhati does understand the Muslim angst well."

She does! But you don't. You keep your mind tightly closed so as not to understand.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 15, 2008 12:00 AM
191
Atul,

I fully agree with your post.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 15, 2008 12:00 AM
192
Learned/Thiagan,

>> Humbug. There are sixty muslim countries in the world and you could cite only one.

Read that report from Michigan University again. This time read it slowly. But I know that as an RSS hate pracharak your job is to find fault. How much do you yourself believe in democracy and secularism? You have stated that all Muslims who remained in India after partition should have been killed and that Muslims in England need to be dealt with by someone like Hitler! Who is more against secularism than your RSS and VHP. If Savarkar and Golwalkar did not want Muslims and Christians to have the right to vote, what kind of democracy that would have been. You persist with your mindless arguments in spite of all these facts. That shows how retarded you are. Tell your bosses to send someone else if they want to use this forum for your hate prachar, because you are doing a very poor job!
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 15, 2008 12:00 AM
193
Learned/thiagan,

>> The followers are commtting the biggest genocide, since Holocaust in Darfur.

That is a shame. Muslims are dying at the hands of other Mjslims. For you to use such a tragedy for your never-ending hate propaganda shows how ill bred and malicious you are. Just stay in the gutter that you belong to!

>> AP said Churchill is a racist; how about this quote:

Your new hero G K Chesterton wanted all Jews removed from Europe! You and Azeem can keep on exchanging these quotations, you from anti-Islamic writers and he from the pro-Islamic writers. I don't have the slightest interst in this game. I just can't imagine how a creep like you can live with himself!
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 15, 2008 12:00 AM
194
"She does! But you don't. You keep your mind tightly closed so as not to understand."

Read my rest of the post. The answer to your bilge lies there. And as for my mind tightly closed, that should worry you. because the more AR writes, and the more you defend her, many more minds are going to be closed...
Kiran Bagachi
mumbai, India
Dec 15, 2008 12:00 AM
195
>> Read my rest of the post.

I read it. I do understand Hindu angst, but I don't think you are the person I would want to talk to about such a serious subject.

Good night!
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 15, 2008 12:00 AM
196
(LOL) Anwar miyan,

I have yet to see you "disuss" or "talk" to ANYNE on ANY subject, serious or otherwise. All you do is duck, slip, fume, and froth.

When all that fails, you start name-calling. Why are you here at all?

Yeah yeah i know. It’s to answer us hatemongers. You have told us that millions of times. But seriously, you tell EVERYONE with whom you don’t agree, that “you are not the person I would want to talk…”

This makes me wonder whose mind is closed.
Kiran Bagachi
mumbai, India
Dec 15, 2008 12:00 AM
197
The article is really eye opener & now I started believing that it is Hindus/Hinduism responsible for the rise of Islamic Terrorism, Hindus says they are most adaptable & flexible, then after 800 years of Islamic rule why they have not adapted any Islamic tradition & learned Quran. It is unfortunate that now some innocent muslims youth have to do this job. I am with you Arudhanti Roy, Destroy Hinduism Cultrally to end Islamic terrorism. Where can I meet you madam, so we can work out further strategies?
Devendra Patel
Ahmedabad, India
Dec 15, 2008 12:00 AM
198
learned

when ever muslims have a vote, they chose to live
under islamic laws. that means they may want to vote, but the end goal is not liberalism, or secularism.

this has been proved by recent events in pakistan, bangladesh. if kashmiri muslims could chose they would prefer to live under a pakistani
regime rather then in a secular, liberal and
democratic india,

fareed zakaria has stated that one should not
expect muslim countries to chose the democratic and liberal model.

turkeys situation explains this. were it not for the army and a smallish western middle class,
it would become like any other muslim state.

statements of facts out rage faruki. however facts can be seen on the ground, and are reported by mainstream journalists.

muslims in india have not become adherents of
liberalism. this has been forced upon them.

they have shown their committment or lack of same at various occasions, know to all.

eg tasleema nasreen, shah bano, salman rushdie,

i dont see many muslim organisation fighting for liberalism . i see many organised in the all
muslim personal law board, the babri masjid
comittee. all work for typical muslim causes.


banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
Dec 15, 2008 12:00 AM
199
Ms Roy writes .... "The only way to contain (it would be naive to say end) terrorism is to look at the monster in the mirror."

Sure it is always good to look at the "enemy within" or the "monster in the mirror" ... it may be necessary but is it sufficient? The terrorist leadership (or their government sponsors) must be made to feel some downside to get any change of behaviour.

She then writes .... "We're standing at a fork in the road. One sign says 'Justice', the other 'Civil War'. There's no third sign and there's no going back. Choose."

Again is it this simple binary choice? I agree one choice is "justice" (or Rule of Law) but I think the other is just "muddle along" not "civil war". Normally, "Rule of Law" is a bottoms-up driven improvement. I do wonder if "need to defend against terror (contain terror)" can help with strengthening "Rule of Law" or as you seem to suggest always come in the way of "Rule of Law".
Arun Maheshwari
Bangalore, India
Dec 15, 2008 12:00 AM
200
well, i don't agree with all the flames against arundhati. she's not a traitor.

i read in the economist that the BJP's hopes to reap votes out of this didn't happen in some of the key states.

why are the only alternatives a futile selfdestructive anti-terrorist ideology and drama vs contemplating the monster in the mirror?

why so huge? cant we start with something smaller and more manageable: such as: what was it that worked in the past which made that whole sikh militancy thing just disappear and go away? why and how did we manage to get that to go away despite being the mess that we are? there was this big attack in the 80s on a plane

frm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/o...sid_2518000/2518857.stm


it seems in Jun 2005, "an attempt to revive Sikh militancy in Punjab" did not succeed


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4111686.stm


so ... why did it not succeed in 2005? can't we ask "what made sikh militancy disappear" and just try out the same things? whatever it was. it worked. so why not try it again in this case?
Arul Francis
Clayton, California
Dec 15, 2008 12:00 AM
201
arul francis

you guys have to chose.

is your loyalty to christ, or to india.

make your choice. as bush said

you are with us .or against us,

if you reject us , let us know, we dont need you.

but for heavens sake take a position and stick to it.

christians in the west are opposed to islam.
indian muslims are opposed to hindus.

so follow your convictions. immigrate to usa, wherever, but spare us your moral lectures.

if you chose islam and muslims go ahead.

you dont need us and we dont need you
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
Dec 15, 2008 12:00 AM
202
Part III:
9. Another contributing factor was the attitude of resentment of Jinnah, Liaquat, Bhutto. Many believe that Pakistan was created to satisfy Jinnah's desire of becoming PM. Bhutto's mother was a Hindu converted to Islam. Married into a Sindhi Vadhera family, she and her son were never allowed to forget their infidel origins and lesser social background. Bhutto had many rejections in India on the social and sports fields (he stayed on in India till 1951-52). This generated bitterness in him and got reflected in his hatred for India. And also Jawaharlal Nehru single handedly created the Kashmir problem and hence terrorism and hence an over smart Pakistan. Because of less foresighted persons like Jawaharlal Nehru we have to suffer a lot.
10. Another reason was the political, economic and military support by Western nations led by the U.S. Notwithstanding the recent Muslim Christian riots in Egypt, Philippines and Indonesia; there exists a religious and cultural empathy between Islam and Christianity, on the belief that both are true believers of the Book. They are Ahle-Kitab. It is well known that a substantial portion of the arms meant for the fight against the Soviets were diverted to terrorists fighting the Indian state. Operation Topac was started in Kashmir after Pakistan had achieved nuclear capability.
11. China, realized that the best way of containing India was by supporting Pakistan. It has consistently provided support to Pakistan in defence and nuclear areas. It suited the Chinese perfectly to talk of friendly relations on one hand and supply arms, nuclear secrets to Pakistan on the other. The art of Double-Speak and treachery and back-stabbing needs to be learnt from the Chinese.
12. Amazing as some of you might think, it's the power of Satellite TV. Through out the eighties, Pakistan used PTV to carry out an effective anti-India propaganda. As usual we failed to respond. Truth shall prevail is our motto. The Pakistanis were fed with stories about the lack of progress made by India, state of Indians Muslims.
With the advent of Satellite TV, an average Pakistani has India in his bedroom. He saw India 24 hours a day, its democracy, freedom, progress, Madhuri Dixit and listens to the melodious voice of Lata Mangeshwar. The sub - continent including Pakistan gets to see cricket matches live on ESPN Star Sports because of advertisements – subscription revenues collected from India. The size, strength and attractiveness of the Indian market to foreign companies is not lost on the average Paki.
All this has made the average Pakistani realize that his country has been left behind. In order to control this fall out, the Pakistani Government ups the anti-India phobia. Liberation of Kashmir is a core problem.
Pakistan's failure to break India and the lack of an effective response have only enhanced the desire to destroy India. We have let them off in 1948, 1965, 1971 and 1999. Only the naïve will believe that Pakistan's animosity for India would cease if the Valley were to become a part of Pakistan. Assam, North-East and districts bordering Bangladesh are already on the agenda. Be it Marketing or Defence Warfare, the rules of the game are the same. You can be pro active or react. Companies/Generals, who anticipate, are known as Leaders while the followers are consigned to history. You have to grant it to the Pakis. They have set the rules of the game for most of the 53 years that we have been independent.
We need to shed this Defeatists Mentality and learn to deal with the world on equal terms. We should fight with Pakistan to the end and should finish of its atrocities once for all. Let we India proof to the world we men of substance are worthy warriors
shivkumar
Mumbai, India
Dec 15, 2008 12:00 AM
203
Part 1:
Just days after launching a crackdown on the Jamaat-ud-Dawah after the United Nations banned it; Pakistani authorities have released four detained workers and removed police guards deployed at the home of a senior leader of the organisation. This is the news I got just now, which shows that Pakistan has no sincerity in catching the culprits of Mumbai terrorist attacks. Pakistan is a third rogue country, a terrorist country; poison is in their blood. Let us pray that the departed souls rest in peace in the recent attacks in Mumbai. Give their families and friends the strength to cope with the loss. To fight against the barbaric terrorism of Pakistan (and Taliban) and their sponsors in India (including some politicians in the Western Region of India) we Indians, the patriotic Indians, the worthy Indians, the one who want to die for this country should do the following:
One is to increase the cost of those who export terror i.e. for Pakistan, Bangladesh and their supporters in India. Snap air/rail links but not trade. Stop exporting cows to these countries.
Two motivate the Armed Forces i.e. Army, Police etc. with sophisticated Arms and pay them with good salaries; they are the only people to be paid well.
Second is all of us Indians should become Kshatriyas physically i.e. willing to fight all those who are out to weaken Bharat and also we should become Brahmins (Peshwas) for wise thinking and innovative. The fight should be also economic. If I employ Bangladeshis just because they are cheaper, knowing very well who they are, I am anti national. If I am exporter/importer and use the services of a Don whom everyone knows has links with Dawood I am anti national. If I vote for a politician who is from my caste/religion but is known to have links with the underworld I am anti national. The list is infinite. What is needed is positive selfless Action. Can we do? Do we have guts to do that? Do we eat food with salt?
Why Pakistan will never allow Bharat to live in peace
Quoting former Pakistani P High Commissioner Abdus Sattar "I do not think Pakistan or India can be friends or have normal relations in our life time. Not perhaps for another two generations." There are religious and political reasons for the animosity. Britain too played its part while leaving India.
shivkumar
Mumbai, India
Dec 15, 2008 12:00 AM
204
Part6 IIA:
1. The partition of India has its roots in Islamic ethos. It goes back to the Prophets journey from Mecca to Madina in 622 A.D. in the face of persecution and harassment known as Hezira. This concept is acknowledged as a norm, to the effect that Muslims do not live in tyranny or oppression from peoples of other faiths. Where Islam is not dominant, Dar-ul-Harb must be created. The Muslim ethos does not seem to accept being part of a pluralistic, multi-dimensional where they are not dominant elements.
If Muslim vote for a Muslim and a Hindu for a Hindu, it is certain that the Hindus would have four times as many since their population is four times as numerous. And now how then can a Muslim protect his interest?" This explains the reasons why Indian Muslims are keen to increase their population. They realize that the only way they can gain control over India's democratic process is by increasing their numbers. It is for precisely this reason they have not opposed infiltration from Bangladesh. And our so called secular politicians like Laloo Yadav, Ram Vilas Pawan, Mulayam Singh Yadav and the entire Communist parties also never spoke about infiltration through our borders. Politicians supporting smuggling and nefarious activities across the country and this route are widely used by enemies of the state. Why are they not nabbed and punished in public as traitors? Real estate especially in Mumbai. Is totally controlled by the politicians-criminals network and that which is also funding such anti India activities. How do you propose to stop this? Everyone knows that they provide funds to the political parties. Illegal immigrants, Bangladeshis who can easily get ration cards, citizen ship and are vote banks for the Congress and Communists. These are also centers for anti India activities. Again supported by Congress and Left politicians.
Said another doyen, Sir Muhammad Iqbal "I would like to see Punjab, North-West Frontier Province, Sindh and Baluchistan amalgamated into a single state. Formation of a consolidated Muslim state appears to be the final destiny of the Muslims at least of North-West India." The demand for Pakistan came from areas where there were sizeable minorities wanting to escape from an anticipated Hindu domination. The concept of Hezira got translated into sub-continental politics.
2. According to Dr Ambedkar, the Muslim leadership of India desired a separate country because of social stagnation, communal aggression and frustration of the Muslim masses. Thought the desire was met it was flaunted.
3. Not getting the whole of Punjab and Bengal, Jinnah talked about having got a moth eaten Pakistan. Muslim ruled states of Junagarh, Hyderabad and Bhopal became parts of India. This generated bitterness. Sardar Patel's success in integration of the Princely States added to the frustration.
4. The British did not want a strong India but hoped for a strongly allied Pakistan. For years they had been pitting the Hindus and Muslims against one another. They hoped that the situation in India would deteriorate to the extent that they would be called back. They did not anticipate that the unification of India by Sardar Patel.
5. After Partition, while India got involved in the process of nation building Pakistan floundered with the death of Jinnah and the assassination of Liaquat Ali Khan. The country was taken over by bureaucrats, military dictatorships and political parties. Since nearly one third of the Muslims stayed back in India, the social, cultural connections with the overall sub-continental phenomena could not be obliterated. This created a crisis of identity for Pakistan was outlined by Najam Sethi in his now famous Delhi speech.“Pakistan had no option but to continuously harp on its Islamic identity. India's secular experiment had to be prevented, made to fail, questioned otherwise it would have destroyed the reason for creation of Pakistan.”
shivkumar
Mumbai, India
Dec 15, 2008 12:00 AM
205
6. The 1971 defeat with the breaking away of East Pakistan only compounded the problem. The fear of Hindu domination came alive. This is what goaded Pakistan into attempting to break Punjab from the Indian union by helping the extremist Sikh elements.
7. Inspite of all its problems, India was nudging along at a leisurely pace, the failure of Pakistan power structure only increased the hostility. The failure in organizing a political system that was responsive to the needs of the Pakistani people, the nexus between the army, the landed elite and the business class made the average Pakistani frustrated. The only way of diverting his attention was the real or imagined threat from India.
8. Nehru's support to Dr Khan Saheb's (frontier Gandhi) desire to keep the North West Frontier Province out of Pakistan, the division of Punjab and Bengal, holding back of the Rs 55 crores by India, Jinnah's support to Hyderabad, Junagarh were some reasons too.
shivkumar
Mumbai, India
Dec 15, 2008 12:00 AM
206
Ms. Roy's need to crusade against all wrong has ended up making her a very confused writer. Perhaps next time there is a tragedy of this magnitude, outlook should find a writer who can analyse the situation intelligently and not say, "well, too bad so many people died. They deserved it because of the wrongs committed elsewhere". And for the life of me i cant fathom why she would call the cold blooded muderers "boys", sounds almost affectionate.
abcd
sydney, Australia
Dec 15, 2008 12:00 AM
207
"The terrorists did not distinguish between poor and rich"

True socialists!! No class distinctions.
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Dec 15, 2008 12:00 AM
208
Why do you impose the hate Hindu,stupid writings of the Christian fanatic going by the the name of Arundhati Roy?She is neither a historian nor one conversant with current affairs.Just because she has won a Booker,you are frequently encouraging her idiotic writings
S.S.Nagaraj
Bangalore, India
Dec 15, 2008 12:00 AM
209
Raking "shit" about her family including her MOTHER in "GOD OF SMALL THINGS" got Arundhathi- "THE ONE BOOK WONDER"- the Booker price. She must be aspiring for a Nobel Prize by writing "greater shit" against India- her mother land. THE LAST ISSUE OF "OUTLOOK" HAS BEEN SEND WHERE IT BELONGS - FLUSHED DOWN THE TOILET!!!!
Akil
Bangalore, India
Dec 15, 2008 12:00 AM
210
Arundhati Bitch Laden shouted from housetops and even in fora abroad that the wife and daughter of Ehsan Jaffrey, M.P. were stabbed, killed, their abdomen cut open, burning rags were thrust into their bowels..etc. in Gujarat riots-2001 and vividly picturised the gory scenes!! And the media believed her and gave wide publicity to this newly acclaimed Social activist.

The said mother and daughter were at U.S. at the time of riots and appeared in Ahmedabad a week later. And Arundati did not have even the minimum courtesy to apologize for the misinformation, she lied openly everywhere!!

She joined Medha Patkar in anti-Narmada Dam movement. People in Gujarat now realize the importance of Narmada dam that now feeds drought hit areas and evn drinking water to millions, a dam on papers since British days!!

Her leftist leanings due to her genes coming from Kerala and Bengal is well known but she is a liar and aspires for cheap popularity, as her pro-Iraq utterances to her hosts in Australia when she was accepting $50,000 from them
jaleel
luknow, India
Dec 15, 2008 12:00 AM
211
Arundhati Bitch Laden is not Taslima Nasrin.

And I stopped reading her long long garbage like essays long long back.

But I hope she will read the editorial by Arindam Chaudhury

http://www.thesundayind.../editorial.asp?pageno=1
jaleel
luknow, India
Dec 15, 2008 12:00 AM
212
I am saddened by many readers' uncontrolled reaction to the essay by Arundhati Roy. Its counter-productive and unjustified. We have nothing personal against her, do we? Just these reactions justify her martyr-like status. The same article is on Guardian, Tom Dispatch and Asia times online. What does it mean when a well-known and talented writer is vilified to this extent? My fellow readers, calm down. And please stop the mutual slanging matches based on perceived community identities.
Narasimhan M.G
Bangalore, India
Dec 15, 2008 12:00 AM
213
Maha, reg AR:>>"I have stopped reading her articles"

So have I.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Dec 15, 2008 12:00 AM
214
What has the world come to? This is outrageous. People to people contact between India and Pakistan have come to a halt.


http://www.hindu.com/20...es/2008121556681100.htm


The wondeful mechanism which has been promoting peace and reducing terrorism is in great jeopardy. Since the beginning of the people to people contact in 2004, terrorists attacks have dropped dramatically.

One strains every nerve to remember when the last terror attack happened.
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Dec 15, 2008 12:00 AM
215
' have a premonition that day is not far off when the world will end up in some serious clash of civilisations as predicted by Huntington."

Bharti

War is on.Mumbai has already faced advance columns of Queda-Talib-ISI Wariors.Many more colums of Jehad have alredy penetrated our Country and are well sheltered deep in Basties.

Congress Got has tied itself into knots of Vote Bank politics.Manmohan can neither move an inch forward nor can untie from the shackles of Vote Bank chains.

Don't be surprised if similar and more attacks take place shortly.We should be prepared for the consequences of choosing this Govt.We should be ready to suffer more for time being.

Delhi and Rajastan Voters have already given their assent and approval.

AMEN !
Khushi Ram
ambala cantt, India
Dec 16, 2008 12:00 AM
216
The following is the first sentence to the preface of a remarkable book titled CRIMES OF CHRISTIANITY by G.W.Foote and J.M.Wheeler.
.
‘An Irish orator was once protesting his immaculate honesty before a suspicious audience of his countrymen. Displaying his dexter palm, he exclaimed that there was a hand that never took a bribe; whereupon a smart auditor cried, “How about the one behind your back?” ‘

Ms Roy is one of the very few Indians (?) who has been pleading to hand over Jammu and Kashmir to the so called ‘Kashmiris’ as if by that the Muslims could be placated.. But why she is particular about Jammu and Kashmir only and not the North East?

We know, unlike in the rest of the nations, in India, there had taken birth two terror babies simultaneously, from bellies of both Muslim and Christian separatists. If we don’t hear much about the latter it is not because there is no Christian terrorism but because the ‘secular press’ in India has managed to suppress it from the public very effectively attributing it to every one except Christian fanatics Further, how many of us know that the recent elections in Mizoram was conducted not by the Election Commission of India but by the Presbyterian church and the clerics of other Christian denominations or in the whole of North East the Hindu is considered as some sort of vermin? Another reason why they are lying low is that they know the fifth columnists like Ms Roy are in the field to keep the kettle of Hindu Muslim feud boiling by her utterances which is given undue publicity not only in India but all over the world to shame Hindus If Kashmir is given away to the Muslims can Thy Kingdom be stopped? And who cares about fraudulent conversions in the meantime when Muslim terrorists are exterminating innocents? Ms Roy is not in the business of promoting Muslim interests or secularism a word which is so prostituted that decent people shrink from hearing it, but Christian interests. It is in vain if Muslims seem to be undergoing some sort of a catharsis after reading Ms Roy.

So far as I can see the only additions to her grievances over the earlier list are ‘attacks’ against Christians in Orissa and Karnataka and ‘Hindu terrorism’ in Malegaon.And no one has any problem with it .But why this talk about Gujrat,Bajrangis and Babri Masjid demolition? Why does her history go back to only that time and not beyond it to those times when wholesale murder of pagans and Hindus by both Muslims and Christians was considered their religious duties and destruction of their temples as essential virtues to gain paradise?

All the churches and mosques except where concrete is used are built up on the ruins of Pagan and Hindu temples. Do you think these mosques and churches are not demolished by the natives there in the manner the Hindu demolished the so called Babri Masjid because they are secular? No. It is simply because there are no Pagans left to claim their temples. It is interesting to speculate about the future of these churches and mosques if paganism is revived. Probably at least for a few it will be news that the Christian fanatics destroyed more temples than their Muslim counterparts did or killed more people for religious reasons. And Ms Roy refuses to contemplate these ruins.
c p narendran
nagpur, india
Dec 16, 2008 12:00 AM
217
"GANESAN -One strains every nerve to remember when the last terror attack happened"

You know what is funny - these are the exact words of Ms. Andhi-Roy
escoss
delhi, India
Dec 16, 2008 12:00 AM
218
While the 2002 Gujarat riots and genocide of Muslims was definitely a disgusting exhibition of racist hatred, wasn't that preceded by the Godhra train massacre of a couple of hundred Hindus, which, I presume, Hindu radicals then used to stir up a frenzy of self-righteous hatred?
M Patel
Chicago, United States
Dec 16, 2008 12:00 AM
219
Ms Roy is nothing but a hypocrite
writer only interested in getting cheap publicity.
She conveniently writes for Jihadi cause
in India, knowing very well that we
Indian being tolerant of diverse opinion, won't
react violently against her pieces of garbage. If
she is a true champion of under class
and oppressed, why is she deafening silent on
ill treatment of Bangladeshi
writer Taslima Nasrin? or Genocide of
Kashmiri Pundits? No, writing for them
will bring wrath of Jihadi against her and
will make her life living hell. She don't
have guts to write truth, just sensesentialism.
Smita
Baroda, India
Dec 16, 2008 12:00 AM
220
Stopperbhai,

>> The difference being that Hindus are in most of the cases are at the receiving end.

Not in this forum!
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 16, 2008 12:00 AM
221
Stopperbhai,

>> They may not be both journalists but they are the blue eyed guys of the selectively secular media.

Your favorite writers must of course be the red-eyed guys of the blatantly communalist media.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 16, 2008 12:00 AM
222
Rose/Bodepudi,

>> This is both a (jihadist)justification and an incitement for committing more 11/26s, including in India.

For idiots who can't read!
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 16, 2008 12:00 AM
223
I read Arundhati's article. So far, this is the best, most comprehensive, thoughtful and sane article that I have read on the matter of the Mumbai terrorist attack coming out of India or for that matter anywhere else in the world. I wished I had the language skill to express myself as she does.

What I find appalling are the overwhelming responses from some of India's most fortunate and probably considered 'educated' , albeit very wrongly; as can be seen in this forum.

A democratic state's foundation is an informed and educated polity. What I see in these comments, surely does not bode well.

cm/USA
Chandan K Mahanta
St. Louis, United States
Dec 16, 2008 12:00 AM
224
Learned/Thiagan,

>> Why muslims will always remain ignorant and backward?

Why are you so ignorant and backward as to use Saudis as examples of where Muslims stand? You need to do something about both your ignorance and your hatefulness.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 16, 2008 12:00 AM
225
AP:>>"If one commits the act of sodomy with a cow"

Are such topics really printed and published in books? Unbelievable!

Humans in the islamic world seem to have almost become animalized in their interests! Perhaps, souls looking for animal birth get born as humans, since most mild animmals get eaten off and forests for wild animals are also shrinking
fast. niryogaat asuraah mrigaah! nir-vanyaat mrigaaSca-asuraah! If humans start living, breeding and thinking like animals, natural disasters and terrorist destructions can, only, be God's answers, to restore ecology and humanity to some stability. Very saddening!
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Dec 16, 2008 12:00 AM
226
Kumar:>>"The humanist, secular democracy is the greatest threat to islamism threatening its total decimation".

Right, bec islamism has become almost animalism.
But then, animalism may end up destroying humanism, also, and then devolution of mankind to monkey-kind?. God alone has the answers.

v.seshadri
chennai, india
Dec 16, 2008 12:00 AM
227
AP:>>"By most reports, the recent elections in Pakistan were fair".

But, the govt formed seems to have only symbolic power, its decisions, directions, systematically disregarded by the army-corporate and the ISI, indirectly organizing terror-trainig camps.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Dec 16, 2008 12:00 AM
228
To Chandan and others praising Arundhati and calling those of us denouncing her intolerant, answer this question: Why don't China, North Korea and Saudi Arabia suffer from these horrible terrorist attacks the way India does? Is it because, unlike India, those countries are truly secular, humanist, democratic and pluralist? Except that they are not. So then, is your position that India had it coming, but not those countries? In what way?
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Dec 16, 2008 12:00 AM
229
Hinduism and cyberspace.
(The relevance of this article to Talibanisque disposal of waste computers).

An article in the journal,. Religion , 38 (2008) pp 233-249. by Heinz Scheifinger, School of Social Sciences, University of Aberdeen, Scotland

(If any body is interested in the above article of Hinduism and cyberspace please go thru google, you will get it).

The abstract of the article concludes ......that overall the cyberspace, is an highly suitable environment for Hinduism

There may be a question , as to how this is related to this article. Yes , there is a connection , just like what has a poor fellow killed in the CST railway station on these eventful days to do with the fall of Soviet Union and after. Sounds far fetched isn't it. Now read further.

The envirommental problems caused by the accumulation of computers for waste disposal is a serious problem. In fact computers are disposed at every three year period now. The old computers are given to retired persons and to some poor countries ( which is not right, because). Even then there is an exponential growth of computers for waste disposal. This is where the above journal article comes in handy. Here is the idea.

Now place all the waste computers with the web sites of Hinduism in Talibanisque areas. There will be a reaction as webolatory images will be an eye sore for the true believers. They will break the computer monitors and make the computers into pulp. Then place many old computers again with the Hindu web sites open. Again there will be smashing of monitors and computers. Now how to collect the pulped computers, there should be an International Neutral Waste Inspector Disposal Squad (INWIDS) sent to these areas ( employment generated at times of financial crisis) and the pulp collected for recycling the right way. In this way the Talibanisque crowd world over can be kept engaged for berating webolatory and providing pulverised material for recycling as pulverised material is easy to handle for recycling. This will be gainful employment for Taliban. This should be a round the clock many days affair.

Hindus will also be happy as they still have the recent version of computers to see the web sites. Of course all will not be able to afford Unlike idol breaking (remember the Bamiyan Buddha statues) , which inflicts permanent damage to hearts and minds of Sanatanis , breaking the computers with the web sites on will not hurt as it is a waste disposal method. Newer versions of computers will keep coming and Cyberspace is Santan (eternal).

In this way, Pulp will not be fiction.







gajanan
Sydney, Australia
Dec 16, 2008 12:00 AM
230
Seshadri,

>> AP:>>"If one commits the act of sodomy with a cow"

I don't think I quoted that. Where did you get it? But there are laws in America (at the state level) criminalizing and setting punishments for bestiality. There must be similar laws in India too.

>> bec islamism has become almost animalism.

I don't think you have the slightest idea what Kumar meant. Why do you comment on posts that you do not understand and keep making a fool of yourself?

>> treating moslems and jews on par in one sentence.

What a stupid and racist statement! Just see my post again and see the obvious context and even a closed mind like yours would see the appropriateness of my comment.

>> IF true, islamists who attacked india and destroyed hindu temples, buddh statues were not mohammedans.

Thet were empire builders and gold seekers and militarists. They happened to be Muslims, but were not paragons of Islam.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 16, 2008 12:00 AM
231
Learned/Thiagan,

>> Who are the moderate muslims?

You answer that by describing the behavior of some fanatic Muslims! It would be like holding up the behavior of some rabid sanghis in Gujerat or Orissa and calling it "moderate" behavior. You seem to know all the low tricks of the badly raised brats.

>> The Wahaabi Islam of Saudi Arabia, it is claimed, is the fastest growing religion in the world.

It is not a religion. It is fundamentalism gone haywire with Saudi money. While it hhas to be fought, using it to defame all Islam is the kind of trick that hatemongers like you can be expected to play. Your sanghi masters want you to do just that.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 16, 2008 12:00 AM
232
AP:>>"I don't think I quoted that. Where did you get it?"

L had given the following info:

Khomeini's book, "Tahrirolvasyleh" fourth volume, Darol Elm, Gom, Iran, 1990

If one commits the act of sodomy with a cow, a ewe, or a camel, their urine and their excrement become impure, and even their milk may no longer be consumed. The animal must then be killed and as quickly as possible and burned."

sent my comments to you, since you may know about khomeni's books.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Dec 16, 2008 12:00 AM
233
Seshadri,

>> sent my comments to you, since you may know about khomeni's books.

Not too bright of you.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 16, 2008 12:00 AM
234
"As more women enter the workforce in our country and become economically independent, practices such as dowry which perpetuate gender inequality should be on the wane. Unfortunately, that is not the case. And it's not just dowry. Disturbing sex ratio imbalances reflect serious gender disparities in our society. A recent study by the Harvard School of Public Health reports that the sex ratio is most skewed among those sections of our population that are much better off than the rest. The Pre-Natal Diagnostic Techniques (PNDT) Act, which makes sex-determination tests illegal, has had little effect. However, there are differences reported across the country; Punjab fares the worst on this measure while Karnataka comes out on top."


http://timesofindia.ind...articleshow/3842107.cms

Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 16, 2008 12:00 AM
235
Teesta setelvad & CJP caught lying !!

SC affidavit wrong, didn’t know what we signed: riot victim

http://www.indianexpres...now-what-we-.../399007/


lookout bug me not
mumbai, India
Dec 16, 2008 12:00 AM
236
>>Thet were empire builders and gold seekers and militarists. They happened to be Muslims, but were not paragons of Islam.

How convenient ! They must have been really stupid gold seekers , as they not only destroyed temples seeking gold but also spent the same gold in building mosques in the same place !!
lookout bug me not
mumbai, India
Dec 16, 2008 12:00 AM
237
Teesta never was trust worthy.Her NGO is a typical anti-Hindus and anti-India .There are many such NGOes being funded with dubious funds from abroad.

A few quotes from Bharti's link :

"SC affidavit wrong, didn’t know what we signed: riot victim
Gujarat cops give clean chitAYESHA KHAN & VIKRAM RAUTELA

AHMEDABAD: In her new home in a narrow bylane of Ahmedabad, Madina Pathan (25) has no idea she has kicked up a storm with her deposition before the Supreme Court-appointed Special Investigation Team (SIT) probing the 2002 Gujarat riot cases.

While an affidavit in the Supreme Court stated that Madina, then a young bride, was raped and stabbed by rioters at her late husband’s house in Naroda Gam, she has told the SIT she was stabbed but never raped. She said she had no idea what was written in that affidavit since it was in English which she could neither read, write or understand.

“In those days, some people used to come and question me. There used to be a Nanu Miyan, I would go to him with the other victims,” Madina told The Indian Express. Nanu Miyan Malek, a Naroda Gam survivor on whose affidavit the Supreme Court appointed the SIT to probe some of the riot cases, says Madina is not lying. “Madina was stabbed in the stomach but no one raped her. She stayed with us in a relief camp for nearly six months,” Malek said.

Malek said the affidavit was “fabricated” and had “incorrect” information. He alleged it was drafted in English without his knowledge by Rais Khan, coordinator of the Citizens for Justice and Peace (CJP), who made him sign on the affidavit. “I had mentioned this in my statement to the SIT too,” he said.

Rais Khan claims it was CJP secretary Teesta Setalvad who sent him affidavits for signatures. “Teesta Setalvad used to send me these affidavits through e-mail. I used to take printouts and get them signed after calling the persons concerned to Shahpur. All these affidavits were drafted by Setalvad along with some legal experts,” Khan said. When contacted, Setalvad declined comment.

According to Malek’s eight-page affidavit, Madina, then the newly married daughter-in-law of his neighbour, was attacked and raped by a Hindu rioter. The affidavit was appended to a petition which the National Human Rights Commission (NHRC) and CJP had jointly moved before the Supreme Court in 2003, seeking a CBI inquiry into the riot cases on the grounds that the Gujarat police was trying to scuttle investigations into these cases.

Madina’s husband, mother-in-law and two brothers-in-law were killed in the attack. She later married one Rafik who now works in Saudi Arabia. She has a three-year-old daughter.

Madina deposed before the SIT on May 20 this year, stating she was never raped. “Jab Gandhinagar ke bade saab ne poochha tab mujhe pata pada ki pehle court mein aisa likha hai. Mera to kabhi balatkar nahin hua tha (I realised that this was written in the court paper only after the official in Gandhinagar (SIT) asked me. I was never raped).”



Khushi Ram
ambala cantt, India
Dec 16, 2008 12:00 AM
238
"Rais Khan claims it was CJP secretary Teesta Setalvad who sent him affidavits for signatures. “Teesta Setalvad used to send me these affidavits through e-mail. I used to take printouts and get them signed after calling the persons concerned to Shahpur. All these affidavits were drafted by Setalvad along with some legal experts,” Khan said. When contacted, Setalvad declined comment."


SO TEESTA IS NOW GUILTY OF MISLEADING THE SC BY FRADULENTLY TAKING FACTUALY WRONG AFFIDEVITS AND SIGNATURES OF THE APPELANTS.
Khushi Ram
ambala cantt, India
Dec 16, 2008 12:00 AM
239
Learned/Thiagan,

>> This is not an isolated incident.

The fact that you have to go to Malaysia and Saudi Arabia to find your daily quota of dirt shows the gutter level nature of your activity. If you read the Cities sections of the larger Indian newspapers you will find several similar incidents of human folly. But your hate-worthy agenda is simply to defame Islam and to use the forum of OUTLOOK for your nefarious activity. You are just a detestable gutter rat.

>> Was the founder a paragon of Islam

Further evidence of your being a poorly brought up uncivil scoundrel.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 16, 2008 12:00 AM
240
I love Arundhati. It may sound juvenile, but its the only thing that comes to my mind. Nobody can write the way she does, express whats so hugely relevant to our sanity to our reality. I couldn't help chuckling when i read about Aranav Goswami. I watched it live and said to myself there is nothing of any worth left anymore. He's an idiot and Aranav i hope you are reading this- we think you are disgusting and we are not alone.
lostintrans
bangalore, India
Dec 16, 2008 12:00 AM
241
Ms. Roy, since you have opted for "B", please leave India. You would enjoy yourself in Pakistan. I am ashamed that as an Indian I read your poisious piece and I am surprised what the reason why OUTLOOK always gives so much importance to antinationals like you
soumya
chandigarh, India
Dec 16, 2008 12:00 AM
242
Well, what was the point of your long essay Ms.Roy?
What do you suggest india should do? Introspect every time a lunatic explodes a bomb? You try to compare two evils and justify one, that is quite disgusting!
War ofcourse is not a solution to all the problems in the world, however if forced upon one has to fight.
You don't want to go out in the street fighting with the dogs however they encroach your space, attack you in your home, you don't introspect but you would take a stick and beat them black and blue so that they don't show up again
Ms.Roy, introspection doesn't deter lunatic terrorists

Saikrishna
Bangalore, India
Dec 16, 2008 12:00 AM
243
Arul F:>>"what was it that worked in the past which made that whole sikh militancy thing just disappear and go away? why and how did we manage to get that to go away despite being the mess that we are?"

No real comparison betw sikh militancy and islamic jihad. Sikh separatism was pak induced, bhindranwala encouraged by indira congress, for political advantage. She herself ended it and paid the personal price; sikhs also paid a price in delhi.

But, spiritually and culturally sikhism is very close to hinduism; but for sikhs and shivaaji, hinduism would have been eliminated by aurangazeb. For every khalisthani, there are dozens of man-mohan singhs! MMS' understanding of the Geeta is far deeper and fuller than that of vajpayi, advani or even joshi! Hence, khalithan movement continues only in Canada, after KPS Gill eliminated it in Punjab!.

Unfortunately, indian moslems operate mainly as nuetral observers for jihadi militants in india, not as vehement opposers. If most moslems in india are nationalist citizens of india, SIMI cells will find it difficult to operate successfully. Other moslems in the neighborhood will expose them to the local police.

There have been committed nationalist moslems in the armed forces of india. Moslem ex-servicemen could be inducted into a central moslem reserve force and their leadership utilized to recruit more young moslems and train them to form some all-moslem anti-terror squads for the country. These can be useful in investigating in sensitive moslem towns, areas, and capturing the chiefs of islamic terror cells in india, inducted from pak, pok or bangla. Where there is a will, there will be a way! Main reason khalisthanism was removed from punjab was that the forces used to handle them were also mostly sikhs only.

v.seshadri
chennai, india
Dec 16, 2008 12:00 AM
244
Ganesan:>>"One strains every nerve to remember when the last terror attack happened"

Really ? The gauhati blasts very recent, cant you remember it? Perhaps, not shown on tv in new york.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Dec 16, 2008 12:00 AM
245
"Really ? The gauhati blasts very recent, cant you remember it? Perhaps, not shown on tv in new york. "

Ever heard of sarcasm?
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Dec 16, 2008 12:00 AM
246
---------

Well, what was the point of your long essay Ms.Roy?
What do you suggest india should do? Introspect every time a lunatic explodes a bomb? You try to compare two evils and justify one, that is quite disgusting!
War ofcourse is not a solution to all the problems in the world, however if forced upon one has to fight.
You don't want to go out in the street fighting with the dogs however they encroach your space, attack you in your home, you don't introspect but you would take a stick and beat them black and blue so that they don't show up again
Ms.Roy, introspection doesn't deter lunatic terrorists


SAIKRISHNA
BANGALORE
INDIA
-----------------------------------------
-------

SAIKRISHNA

Don't worry about her. Never her in life she will come up with one positive idea. I met a lot of good Christians but I also met some incorrigibly horrible ones. One of my professors used to call us into his office and play Gita cassette where Krishna says: "I am not God but God is within you". Then he would turn to us and ask "Why do you believe Krishna is a God when he himself says he is not a God". Ms. Roy is one such type of Christian fundamentalist who hates Hindusim and Hindus and in extension that hatred spread to India. Though she conceals her name, her actual name is Suzzanne Arundhati Roy. By concealing her first name, she gains instant credibility internationally as Indian Hindu woman who is criticizing Hindus and India. No one really digs deep to find her faith. For all, she could be an atheist but just hates Hindus generally by birth (Christians are taught to belittle every other religion where Hindus are taught to respect every other religion).

But the fact is she derives a lot of happiness if you die. She wants your family to die. She wants every Indian (specially Hindus though she will accept sacrifice of Indians of other religious faith to some extent as collateral damage) to be murdered by Paki terrorists or Bangla terrorist or or Naxalite terrorist or any terrorist. Then she can write a book or article over our dead bodies how these deaths are caused because what some hindu leader said something which offended some poor, noble young man from Afghanistan or Saudi Arabia or Pakistan or Bangladesh and it is all your fault. She can sell her book and make money and also can reach orgasm looking at the dead bodies of Indians (specailly Hindus).
VIvek
Hyderabad, India
Dec 16, 2008 12:00 AM
247
KR:>>Delhi and Rajastan Voters have already given their assent and approval"

But, why have MP and chattishghar not approved the congress. bjp lost rajahsthan bec the CM was behaving more like a queen than a public servant for the people. The poor arrangements for the hill-shrine worship leading to hundreds dying could have influenced the voters. Shiela dixit in delhi was seen as the first servant for the state. Bjp, in delhi and R-sthan, were probably sure of victory, especially after terror strikes. Perhaps crooked selfish polits entered the fray and lost, bec of bad image. In MP, C-ghar, the CMs were themselves uncertain, bec of the anti-incumbency factor, hence crooked polits stayed off, honest polits got nominated and won, also. BJP should learn its lessons before the gen-elections. Keep the selfish crooks at armslength, off the tickets.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Dec 16, 2008 12:00 AM
248
Bhaarati:>>"What is she?"

A paid piper for transnational vested interests, I think, for both jislamists and conversionists, together, in this case. Churchians and mullahs fight in the rest of the world, but in India, they would like to eliminate non-abrahamic hindus first, before starting the real H-war!

Especially since the names of abraham and wife saaraa are too close to the hindus' bramha and saraswati, raising uncomfortable questions.
In 1970, when jews and moslems were fighting over palestine, I was in WG; wrote a letter to NYT saying since abraham = ibrahim = bramha, same word pronounced somewh differently; no need for jews, mosl, chr to fight, bec of common origins, anyway. The letter was promptly returned to me saying they cant publish it!
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Dec 16, 2008 12:00 AM
249
Naughty Arundhuti !! how dare you say Hafiz Saeed is a bigot ????

This guy is a true MUslim, with no traces of hypocrisy like the muslim contributors on this forum.
ANBanerjee
Newcastle, United Kingdom
Dec 16, 2008 12:00 AM
250
"Bhaarati:>>"What is she?"

She is an anarchist-in the mold of Noam Chomsky.
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Dec 16, 2008 12:00 AM
251
"Despite media investigation reports about Ajmal Kasab, joint investigations are necessary because one cannot rule out the possibility that elements like the ones who were involved in the Samjhota Express blast and the Malegaon massacre have had something to do with aggravating the situation. After all India’s Anti Terrorism Squad chief Hemant Karkare, who was investigating the involvement of the serving Lt Col Purohit of the Indian military intelligence, along with others, was among the first victims of the terrorists in Mumbai. A joint investigation is also necessary to verify the controversial confessional statement of Ajmal Kasab and different accounts of the incident involving him.'Dawn


http://www.dawn.com/2008/12/16/op.htm#top



Let Mahrashtra Govt handle the wages of their motivated Vote Bank Policies .
a k ghai
mumbai, India
Dec 16, 2008 12:00 AM
252

http://www.dawn.com/weekly/jawed/20080812.htm


'I think Indian Muslim leaders need to accept that the act of terrorism perpetrated in Mumbai, and from which they are trying to dissociate themselves by wearing black armbands, is as much their responsibility as it is of the state that allows them to nurture exclusivist and supremacist ideas in their seminaries. The mullahs viciously targeted the beacon of secular poetry, Yas Yagana Changezi, for chiding them thus:

Sab tere siwa kaafir, aakhir iska matlab kya!

Sar phira de insaa’n ka, aisa khabt-i-mazhab kya!!

(All others except you are kaafirs, does it at all make any sense?

Why are you so obsessed with your religion, or is it just pretence?)

Timothy McVeigh, who bombed a federal building in Oklahoma City, was an alienated member of American society. Can the mullahs deny that Indian McVeighs are lurking in the shadows of alienation for a variety of reasons that foments satanic ideas of revenge and harm? If they are not in denial then they should recognise that helping isolate the lurking Mcveighs is far more urgent than demonstrating their sympathy with the Indian state.

At one of their meetings, so I am told, Muslim intellectuals and priests alike came up with fanciful stories that ranged from the role of the Israeli intelligence to that of Hindu extremists in the devastation of Mumbai’s high-profile Colaba district. Of the bizarre ideas thrown up by these cynics not all should be dismissed without a moment’s pause, or even a probe, as it would be cavalier to ignore such questions, even if they seem predictable."

'To that extent the Indian state is equally culpable for having surrendered the community’s fate and identity to an association of self-serving clerics. The All India Muslim Personal Law Board has proved to be the undoing of the 150 million strong community, as it has kept them tethered to mediaeval notions of religion, a fertile ground for breeding violence. The clerics earned brownie points demanding the ban on Salman Rushdie’s otherwise unreadable book.

They also got the government to overturn a law that empowered Muslim women at par with other Indian women in matters of divorce. Even today there are pockets in northern India where Muslim clerics are holding off a global anti-polio campaign. The other place the polio campaign has met with resistance is the Afghanistan-Pakistan border regions where the Taliban hold sway. If these clerics share a common mindset how can they help fight terrorism, which is an adjunct of fanaticism? But why blame the mullahs alone? They have a pact of mutual support with all the political parties, including the BJP. Who can forget the clarion call by the group called Muslims for Vajpayee that came out in support of the former prime minister in the last elections?

The attack in Mumbai might resemble the 9/11 plot, or even look like an aborted sea-based attack on Israel, but it also has shades of the Oklahoma bomber. In other words, it is at least partly home-grown. Let us not get away by pointing, as some Muslim leaders have done, to the recent discovery of neo-fascist Hindu groups for the Mumbai atrocity. These groups may have indulged in false flag attacks by pretending to be Muslims elsewhere. But the Mumbai terrorists were too spectacular to be blamed on nascent fascists who are under probe. To deny any role of Indian Muslim extremists, as facilitators if not as plotters, in the Mumbai tragedy would be opportunism with an eye on the next elections."
a k ghai
mumbai, India
Dec 16, 2008 12:00 AM
253
I’ve some questions to Arundhati:
1) Do you believe – love is beauty, beauty is love?
2) Can you justify the killings in hotels for a corporate spokesperson’s comment?
3) Do you want to make the whole incident flimsy, establishing some Indians are involved in it?
4) Do you want to color the invaders as heroes as they could manage to perform that scale of massacre instead of the valiant fights of police, NSG and others?
5) What would be your answer in places where Muslims are majority and same blood shading and the insult of humanity is happening?
6) Finally, don’t you think, you are exercising your full freedom of expressing your own opinion in your country?
The tragedy happened in Mumbai is indescribable and is a grave warning to this subcontinent. Let’s not just sublime it by apparently justifying thoughts - if not, the world may face the wiping of all good things and beauty which it has earned through education and knowledge so far!
dip
Dhaka, Bangladesh
Dec 16, 2008 12:00 AM
254
The LEARNED:

You are truly learned.

Don't let that duplicitous and despiscable PR man for Islam, Faruki, deter you. The truth must be told.

By calling you names he shows he has no argument ..and, pray, how can anyone defend Saudi Arabia - or Malaysia for that matter.
sandy
Mumbai, India
Dec 16, 2008 12:00 AM
255
Greetings Varun:

You asked >Why don't China, North Korea and Saudi Arabia suffer from these horrible terrorist attacks the way India does?
I don't know that they don't. But let us assume for a moment they don't. Then which model do you wish for India to emulate?You are in Canada, where none of this kind of violence exists. Does Canada emulate Saudi, China or NK ?

Obviously your question is not a thoughtful one. India is NOT a homogeneous little country that could be brought under the control of a military force, even a brutal one. Arundhati understands that. It should not be that hard for you and I and all of our bright friends around the world to realize that by now. Look at Kashmir. Look at the longest running low intensity warfare in the world-- the Naga/India conflict. Look at Assam. Look at the spread of Maoist rebellions across the heart of India. India has squandered not only huge amounts of its scarce resources but killed hundreds of thousands of its OWN people in its quest to hold on to the land of people who don't want to be ruled by a distant and uncaring semi-alien ruler.

The killing of hundreds of thousands of Kashmiris, Nagas, Assamese, Mizos and Central Indians of numerous ethnicity, the countless that have been left maimed for life not only by the armed forces but also the police and State sponsored Secret Killers and goons, tacitly approved by its dysfunctional justice system and unseen and un-cared for by its intelligentsia who spout democratic values but are abjectly ignorant of what the democratic ethos is; has not brought the constituents of this forced union called India together. It is continuing to breed more and more dissension, hatred and violence from those who have decided that there is no hope for positive change.

It is time for thinking Indians and well-wishers of India like yourself to raise their voices in support of political solutions to the many conflicts that has ravaged the sub-continent with increasing and more frequent violence than ever before.

Oh yes, I have heard the polite argument of my fellow-desis that there are NO solutions to some problems. But that is a self-fulfilling prophecy at best. There always are solutions. Question is how much one is willing to give?

I have a simple rule: A country cannot be one merely with control over the land but minus its population. It is futile and uncivilized to hold on to populations against their will with brute military force.

Only political accommodations hold the hope for reduction of India's conflicts and resultant violence. Arundhati is one of those very few who realizes that. All power to her and who think like her.

Chandan K Mahanta
St. Louis, United States
Dec 16, 2008 12:00 AM
256
DEAR A. ROY I AM WAISTING MY TIME TO TALK SOME SENSE INTO YOU AFTER READING YOUR SO CALLED ESSAY ON TERRORISM.

I DO NOT KNOW FROM WHERE YOU LEARNT TO BE A REPORTER BUT I WILL TELL YOU OONE THING FOR SURE THAT A 5 YEAR OLD CAN DO MUCH BETTER AT YOUR JOB SO JUST A WORD OF ADVICE BETTER LET SOMEONE ELSE HANDLE JOURNALISM LIKE MR. GOSWAMI (OF TIMES NOW)

YOUR CONCLUSION THAT TERRORISM IN INDIA IS DUE TO EXTREMIST HINDUS IS TOTALLY BASELESS AND WITHOUT ANY EVIDENCE. IF YOU HAVE EVIDENCE THEN KINDLY POST IT ON THE SITE AND I WILL BE THE FIRST ONE TO CONGRATULATE (BUT I KNOW THAT THAT DAY WILL NEVER COME)

ANYWAY LET ME CLARIFY CERTAIN THINGS SO THAT PEOPLE LIKE YOU WHO HAVE ALMOST NO COMMON SENSE CAN EASILY UNDERSTAND IT.

1. ACCORDING TO U WE PATRIOTS OF INDIA DO NOT HAVE ANY RIGHT TO LIVE. THE SOLE PURPOSE FOR OUR EXISTENCE IS TO GET SLAUTERED AT PLACES LIKE DELHI, GUJARAT, JAIPUR, BANGLORE, KASHMEER(SPECIALLY KASHMEERI PUNDITS) AND MUMBAI.
LET ME TELL YOU HONESTLY THAT WE HAVE HAD ENOUGH AND NOW ITS OUR TIME FOR REPLY SO HYPOCRATES LIKE U BETTER WATCH OUT.

2. DARUL-E-ISLAM CAN FIGHT FOR THEIR ISLAM TO CONVERT THE WHOLE WORLD UNDER THEIR SO CALLED "GOD".
BUT WE AS INDIANS TAKE A VOW TODAY THAT TILL THE DAY EVEN A SINGLE ISLAMIC TERRORIST BREATHES ON OUR MOTHERLAND AND PEOPLE LIKE "U" WHO WANTS TO HAVE AN OPEN WAR (BY PASSING IDIOTIC LAWS WHICH BAILS TERRORISTS AND HELPING PEOPLE IN DOING SO BY PROVIDING THEM LEGAL EXPERTISE) WE WILL NOT SIT QUITELY UNTIL WE EXTERMINATE THE LAST ONE OF U AND UR JIHADI FRIENDS
INDIA NEEDS A PEST CONTROLLER AND WE ARE WLLING TO GIVE A HAND.


DEAR VOTERS WHO HAVE VOTED IN DELHI, MESORAM, AND RAJASTHAN FOR A DIFFERENT GOVENRMENT ON PETTY EQAUTION

PLEASE GIVE A BOUQUET OF FLOWERS TO OUR BELOVED CHIDAMBARAM(LUNGI) FOR SHOWING THE FUTURE TERRORISTS A BIG LOOP HOLE BY INACTING THE NEW LAW AND MAKING THE POLICE STATEMENT VOID WHEN A TERRORIST IS UNDER CUSTODY.
AND SO NOW KASAB WILL GET BAIL AND HE WILL RETURN NEXT CHRISTMAS AS SANTA OF DEATH WITH FEW OF HIS FRIENDS TO SLAUGTER MORE INDIANS.

PLEASE GIVE UR VOTE TO SECULAR PARTIES LIKE CONGRESS OR LALU, MULAYAM WHO EVEN SUPPORTED ABU SALEM IN ELECTIONS.

I ALSO HOPE THAT AFZAL GURU IS ENJOYING INDIAN HOSPITALITY WITH MY TAX MONEY.

I WOULD URGE ALL TERRORISTS TO COME AND INVADE INDIA AS THIS IS A COUNTRY OF COWARD POLITICIANS AND PEOPLE WHO CHOOSE SUCH GOVERNMENTS BY THEIR POWER OF VOTE.

BHAGWAN BACHAYE IS DESH KO!!!!
shah
mumbai, India
Dec 17, 2008 12:00 AM
257
Chandan, your response to my question was not thoughtful either. Hundreds of thousands murdered? That's utterly false. India has a democratic, federal system that grapples with, and accomodates-mostly successfully- a far greater amount of diversity of language than does Canada. If India were suppressing the languages of these states, imposing a Kim Jong or Idi Amin on the people living there, physically colonising the states with people from other parts of India( recall China's Han settlement policy in Tibet) and imposing a master race/subject race dichotomy on the people in those states in the manner of European colonialism or Nazism, then things could be said to be profoundly different and in dire need of massive political change. And as an accompaniement to my above remarks, it's also important to understand the nature of those movements that seek to separate from India. If they are just rabid ethno-chauvinist or religiously fanatic( as in Kashmir), that simply won't do. What kind of states and political systems do these movements envisage, another Myanmar, North Korea or Saudi Arabia? Not good enough. They should be struggling, if they have to be struggling at all, for more demoracy, secularism and pluralism than what currently exists in India. Otherwise, their movements are plainly reactive, backward looking and stupid.Violence and separatism for the sake of violence and separatism.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Dec 17, 2008 12:00 AM
258
Also Chandan, you didn't answer my question about China, North Korea and Saudi Arabia, even though you made a snide, arrogant remark about India's political system. If, as people like yourself and Roy constantly maintain, that repression leads to terrorism as we saw in Mumbai, then why are North Korea, Myanmar, China and Saudi experiencing it? I obviously made a sarcastic remark about those countries being more secular, pluralist and democratic than India. I did not say they are models for India or for anyone. And stop putting on airs of sophistication, as if you are the big, progressive know-it-all, looking down on us Indians and persons of Indian origin who do feel India is a major victim of terrorism, and has every right to take measures against it.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Dec 17, 2008 12:00 AM
259
I meant to write "then why are North Korea, Saudi, China and Myanmar NOT experiencing it"( i.e terrorism, as a response to political repression)
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Dec 17, 2008 12:00 AM
260
No homeland security,no anti-terror laws,great piece by Arundhati.She stops short of suggesting that problem can be solved by all of us joining Jud
.I would suggest to her to become Attorney General of Pakistan.Of course we rarely search for sense in her writings but the "Intellectual
prostitution" is sickening.
Raghunatha Rao Juvvadi
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 17, 2008 12:00 AM
261
"She stops short of suggesting that problem can be solved by all of us joining Jud"

That was a fantastic line!
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Dec 17, 2008 12:00 AM
262
Ganesan from NJ wrote:

"She stops short of suggesting that problem can be solved by all of us joining Jud"

That was a fantastic line!

*** Yes indeed.

Many of the responses here indicate very clearly that the English language, in which Arundhati and most Indian thinkers write, is a serious problem, even with NRAs living in English speaking countries.
Chandan K Mahanta
St. Louis, United States
Dec 17, 2008 12:00 AM
263
Learned/Thiagan,

>> In the media reporting about Mumbai the words Islam and jihad were noticeably absent.

Only idiots like Bill Warner and you would use terms like Islamic terrorism or Hindu terrorism. You are just retarded.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 17, 2008 12:00 AM
264
Learned/Thiagan,

>> I ask a simple question and why do you abuse?

Since your question showed qualities associated with being a poorly brought up and uncivil scoundrel, that's what I called you.

>> The theology says; the life of the founder confirms and the history of 1200 years reinforces ...

Your idiotic rants do not answer the question, "Do you think Al Qaeda and LeT are trying to force their God on you?"
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 17, 2008 12:00 AM
265
"While other language groups living in Tamil Nadu obtain a working knowledge of Tamil to interact with people in day-to-day life, most Hindi speakers I know do not learn Tamil even after living here for years" MT

Telugus have complaints against the Tamils which are far more serious. Our grandparents and parents taught us that let there be one nationbal language, be it Hindi, Oriya or Tamil, let ALL Indians learn it. We can easily learn Hindi, English and a mother tongue since Hindi is spoken by a majority. Tamilian chauvinism was found to be far worse than Hindi wallahs-though the North has provcen to be a drag on the rest of the country
Rose
New York, United States
Dec 17, 2008 12:00 AM
266
Your idiotic rants do not answer the question, "Do you think Al Qaeda and LeT are trying to force their God on you?"

Watch your Madarasa language-of abuse and hatred against Hindus
Rose
New York, United States
Dec 17, 2008 12:00 AM
267

Response to Varun Part 1

Hi Varun:

Thanks for the response:

>>your response to my question was not thoughtful either. Hundreds of thousands murdered? That's >>utterly false. India has a democratic, federal system that grapples with, and accomodates-mostly >>successfully- a far greater amount of diversity of language than does Canada.


*** I did not write "murdered". But the result is the same. Therefore I won't debate the semantics.

So are you suggesting that the 60/80,000 Kashmiri dead, over 100,000 Naga dead, over 15,000 Assamese dead, over 10,000 Mizo dead and the other tens of thousands of Indians from the heartland were executed as a result of the great Indian democratic justice system's due process?

*** I also have not spoken a thing about language repression, even though language chauvinism is one of a multitude of contributory factors to the conflicts that have ravaged India. Far worse have been economic, political, cultural and religious factors, compounded by a dysfunctional condition of all of India's governmental institutions.

Arundhati took pains to point these out clearly, replete with examples of egregious violations of democratic norms.



>If they are just rabid ethno-chauvinist or religiously fanatic( as in Kashmir), that simply won't do.

*** If only you could enforce your righteous conclusions, then none of these violent eruptions would be there to be exploited by anti-Indians like Arundhati, right :-)? Sorry Varun -- I just could not resist the temptation for the sarcasm here. But I am sure you know what I am trying to say.

See Part 2

Chandan K Mahanta
St. Louis, United States
Dec 17, 2008 12:00 AM
268
Response to Varun, Part 2

>They should be struggling, if they have to be struggling at all, for more demoracy, secularism and >pluralism than what currently exists in India.

*** I will agree with you on this -- to a point. Unfortunately, had the Indian intelligentsia taken a role in improving Indian democracy and its dysfunctional institutions, many of today's conflicts never would have arisen. See Varun democratic reforms cannot be initiated by those who never had seen its virtues in action. When people take to the streets to protest, if the response is gunfire from troops or police, then democratic values have been instantly snuffed out. If blatant violations of the public trust can be cob vered up by those in power with a well placed bribe, then you lost your faith in the system. Obviously you are uninformed about the origins of these conflicts. Just for your taking the trouble in participating, allow me to fill you in on how a little bit of Indian democracy, something I have taken to calling desi-demokrasy, derisively of course, played out in Nagaland :

Nehru was visiting the Nagas, obviously because they were getting restive . A huge
protest rally was organized to demonstrate to Nehru, at Kohima. The local DC, an Assamese
Brahmin, ordered the police to open fire, killing hundreds in a few minutes. It was far worse
than Jalianwallabagh. Did you ever about it? That Sir, was desi-demokrasy in action. The
Naga / India conflict now has become the longest running low intensity conflict in the entire
world.


>I did not say they are models for India or for anyone. And stop putting on airs of sophistication, as if you >are the big, progressive know-it-all, looking down on us Indians and persons of Indian origin who do >feel India is a major victim of terrorism, and has every right to take measures against it.

*** I did not take issue with India's right to take action against terrorism. But terrorism in India has not appeared from nowhere. It has well definable roots. It has a political context. If those Indians and their well-wishers who have seen how a democracy ought to function, like yourself, have an obligation to raise their voices, like Arundhati has been doing, in finding political solutions to the conflicts that have given rise to the increasingly frequent and ever so violent conflicts.

That is my point. And it is Arundhati's too.

Best.

Chandan K Mahanta
St. Louis, United States
Dec 17, 2008 12:00 AM
269
Chandan has ignored the fact that both Nagaland and Kashmir have democratically elected governments in power, which means that the people elected them, or at the very least( if you want to make a negative comment about Indian democracy) had the opportunity to elect them in multi-party elections. Also, why are you talking about the 50's and 60's? And how are you so sure, inter-alia, that the US, UK, Canada et al, would handle something like a violent Naga insurgency with more humaneness and restraint than India has (i.e your reference to some very old shooting of protestors in Nagaland) All the evidence would point to them being far more ruthless and decisive in handling such a problem than weak, vacillating India. And China and North Korea, forget even thinking about it!
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Dec 17, 2008 12:00 AM
270
If a distant,"alien" and unresponsive government in New Delhi is, as you claim, forcing the people of the states you mention into a revolt, then surely Ladakh, the farthest villages in Arunachal, and the town of Nagercoil in Tamil Nadu, should be seething and fuming with resentment. If you look on the map of Kashmir, you'll notice that Ladakh is located farther away from New Delhi than the Kashmir valley. Yet Ladakh hasn't seen so much as a slashed car tire or an angry slogan scrawled on a wall! Sorry, it doesn't add up. And to your remark about Indian democracy, pure, perfect, pristine democracy doesn't exist *anywhere* in the world. But that obviously by itself does not lead to terrorism, separatism and horrific incidents like we witnessed in Mumbai. Again, yours and Arundhati's theories don't hold much water. Terrorism as a response to inadequate democracy- indeed!!
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Dec 17, 2008 12:00 AM
271
Yo Anwar,
"poorly brought up and uncivil scoundrel" - going by your own rants earlier, you will have to agree then that this applies to you very accurately.

Oh my, how the words come back to bit you!

Next time you better accept that you are a jihadi scoundrel who runs with jihadi mongrels!

Yes I no longer call these paki b@astard terrorists as anything else but MONGRELS. Now you have to decide - if you are one of them or an Indian.
Now repeat after me- Vande Matram, Jai Hind, Long Live India
escoss
delhi, India
Dec 17, 2008 12:00 AM
272
Hi Varun:

> But that obviously by itself does not lead to terrorism, >separatism and horrific incidents like we witnessed in Mumbai. >Again, yours and Arundhati's theories don't hold much water.

*** So, what is your recipe for reigning in these increasingly frequent and violent episodes in India?

You do however prove one thing: That you along with your kind of Indian intelligentsia is at the root of India's problems, not solutions.
Chandan K Mahanta
St. Louis, United States
Dec 17, 2008 12:00 AM
273
>> going by your own rants earlier, you will have to agree then that this applies to you very accurately.

Not by a long shot, idiot!
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 17, 2008 12:00 AM
274
For the first time, I found an Arundhati Roy article unreadable. I stopped right after the rant about hunger index.

This article is a sideshow and she is irrelevant to this discussion (certainly not to others, I dont mean to discount her achievements in other areas of society).
vijay
Chennai, India
Dec 17, 2008 12:00 AM
275
Arundathi turns out to be a scared but wanna be leftist with superfluous/no historical knowledge on people's struggle against tyranny and repression. Even though her critique is not fundamentally flawed, her lack real knowledge on historical struggles and contemporary genocides makes her arguments for Indian musilms hypocritical. For example, her sympathies for Kashmiri armed struggle for freedom from India is well known but at the same time she displays a utter lack of understanding on LTTE and Sri-lankan tamil killings. Singala chauvinism is the cause for killing of tamils and LTTE is just an effect. She overlooks an important issue vis-a-vis LTTE which is of scale. One needs to rationalise scale of atrocities committed by both sides, state and freedom fighting groups before denouncing one as terrorist over the other(both implicity or explicity). Because such wavering of liberal middle class could result in irreversible damage. In global politics, you cannot always hope for a situation ideally suited to your level realisation but you always have to choose better of evil hoping for an incremental justice. So, armed struggle of any repressed community needs to be seen in a context of the corresponding state terrorism. Her characterisation of LTTE as a terrorist organization shows that she is more than eager to join the bandwagon of dishonest and castiest tribes of Indian Left.
Sathish
Pune, India
Dec 17, 2008 12:00 AM
276
As much as I admire Ms Roy - for her often misplaced audacity - I cannot help saying that her eassay 9/11 is nice to read, but it is difficult to make out any logical understanding and/or practical solution to the terrorist problem from the lengthy and often convaluted essay. Her "poetic" solution to contain terrorism may sound wonderful to reflect; does it offer a clear strategy and action plan to address all the "ills" inflicted by the socalled secularists on the common man/women in this country.
I am sorry Ms Roy's writing often reminds me of my former employer UN and its official documents - beautifully written, great to read, but little help to "operatilize" our good intentions.
Being a declared social activist she should be more focused on the problems and possible solutions, conveyed in NOT more two written pages (only retirees can ready such lengthy write-ups going nowhere, except for just time pass (as Chennai people often do).
V. Muthuswami
Chennai, India
Dec 17, 2008 12:00 AM
277
Hamid Gul was interviewed by Fareed Zakaria. If only Arundati as the chief and other anchors CNN.IBN and NDTV had interviewed Gul. Let's start, there will be commerical breaks.

Arundati:Good morning , Gulji
Gul : Aadab , Arundhati.
A: Yeh , Nariman house , kuch doll ( dhal)me kala lagta hai.
G: They were young boys who were tired and asked for Juice in Nariman House.
A: So that is the thing. Juice ka Jews. I will write it first in Guardian and then Outlook will copy it.
Commercial break. As Gul has retired , he wants to earn money , so the other anchors as mentioned sing a song with Gul as the lead singer. It is an advt for an Attar. Gul does a la Ajit jig and the anchors along with ISI officers sing in chorus Gul starts " Kabhi Kabhi Arundhati , thu likhthi hai tho acha lagta hai. jaise ke mere mulk me mehkhtha hua phool barastha hai" The anchors and ISI officers in chorus " Hamesha acha lagta hai" . C break over interview starts.
A: 10/12 kaar sakhte hai aaisa kaam.
G: They had stomach problem. You know. Probably they were farting in equal decibels to gunshots. Somebody else must have fired.
A: Paar , woh world famous pose Rly station ke paas.
G: That fellow wanted to act in Bollywood. He was doing modelling outside the station. You know Bollywood films.
A: I will write this in Guardian again and Outlook will copy it baar baar lagatar.
Commercial Break , Gul leads an ad for an underwear with the same chorus " Yeh , Gulbadan, Phoolo ki mehk, Kato ki chuban
C break over.
A: Yeh Karkare paar hamla aur baki do paar.
G: The point is that they like Kurmura very much. Now you see Arundhati. Mumbai is such a noisy place. They must have mixed up kurmura with karkare.
A: This also I must write.
G: You know , your own Hindi film hero , Amitabh Bachhan ka dialogue hai . English is a funny language. You see they were well trained for communication skills.
A: They must have removed the s in skills and said communication kills.
G: Wah!! Wah!! Lajawab. What an answer . You are the Mona and Sona of communications.
Commercial break. An ad for Sherbet with Gul and the anchors in chorus
“ Chalo dildaar chalo , us paar chalo , hamahe peena hai juice”

The interview gets interrupted as there is a power cut in the studio of recording the interview.
gajanan
Sydney, Australia
Dec 17, 2008 12:00 AM
278
Hi Learned from Losa

>What political problems? Palestine, Kashmir, Chechenya etc; I have already cited the Mopla >riots in which muslims killled thousands of Hindus and raped hundreds of Hindu women in 1921 >Kerala.


*** So WHAT kind of problems would you categorize them as? Religious? Economic? Something else that ought not to be mentioned, recognized--by civilized people?

And the history that you cite, is it relevant? If it is, why would you not give the same relevance to the killing of Kashmiris or Nagas or Assamese or Garos or Mizos by the Indian armed forces?

*** You know Losa, EVEN Muslims are human beings? Or would you not dignify them as such?
I know how caste-Indians did not and even today do not recognize the humanity of some of the people that call the land called India their home. They devalue their humanity by calling them Dalits, tribals, forest dwellers and the like, fit to be killed as beasts in 'encounters' when they get restive. That to me is no different from the Muslim zealots who would devalue YOUR humanity as 'kaffers'. My point here is this: IF those who supposedly know better, cannot or do not attempt to correct the wrongs of their society that have bred this kind of violence as we witnessed in Mumbai, at Guwahati, at post-Godhra Ahmedabad, how do YOU see arresting the ever increasing violence that have been wreaking havoc in Indian society?

*** IF military might and firepower were to have been proven as an effective antidote to all these, I might have had to capitulate to your or Varun's or the overwhelming number of others' who have voiced their views in this forum. Can you show me, can you honestly show yourself; how India's obsession with 'security' -- not so well disguised obsession with a military
solution, has served its interests as could be observed by all but the legally blind over the past half century? Are you guys so afflicted with this learning disability? What, Losa?
Chandan K Mahanta
St. Louis, United States
Dec 17, 2008 12:00 AM
279
Hello Muthu

>Her "poetic" solution to contain terrorism may sound wonderful >to reflect; does it offer a clear strategy and action plan to >address all the "ills" inflicted by the socalled secularists on the >common man/women in this country.


**** WHAT exactly did you surmise from Arundhati's article as her recommendations for trying to contain and possibly reverse these acts of extreme, mindless violence that has riven India in recent decades?

I ask, because it seems to me you don't read and comprehend ordinary English too well, like so many desis posting in this forum.
Chandan K Mahanta
St. Louis, United States
Dec 17, 2008 12:00 AM
280
Learned/Thiagan,

>> What political problems? Palestine, Kashmir, Chechenya etc; I have already cited the Mopla riots ....

What a stupid question! The only way you can view things is through your thick lenses of hate. Your opinions are worth zilch.

>> In terms of education, upbringing, status and culture I am far ahead of .....

Don't delude yourself. Someone who decides to spend his retirement years in spreading hate against the religion of 150 million of his own compatriots is neither well educated, nor well cultured. You are the lowest of the low!

>> If there is no Islamic terrorism, what shall we do with these"

They are hateful bigots as despicable as yourself.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 17, 2008 12:00 AM
281
The only sane voice I've heard in the entire Indian media coverage. Arundhati is bang on cautioning us about us path to civil war. She was also absolutely correct about US foreign policy back in 2003 even before the Iraq war had started.

A lot of people here do not get it. There is noone who says the terrorists should not be punished. What Arundhati is saying that if we do not punish the terrorists in the government AKA Modi, then this cycle of destruction will never end.
We also need to fix things on the inside in addition to fixing things outside.
root2squared
Stamford, United States
Dec 17, 2008 12:00 AM
282
"cannot help saying that her eassay 9/11 is nice to read, but it is difficult to make out any logical understanding and/or practical solution to the terrorist problem from the lengthy and often convaluted essay" Muthuswami

Even her Goddess of Small things novel was never good in quality compared to Vikrams Seth's Suitable Boy. Seth handled the theme as a narrative very well. Arundhati provided a lot of raunchy excursions in Kerala , which probably tickled the homo erectus judges of Booker prize, more than the intellectual tour de force of Vikram Seth. Overall there is a decline in literature and writing. If you keep Dickens, Bernard Shaw and the all time great Shakespeare as the standard, the present day writers , write more to the meandering commercial aspects rather than a social comment or an indepth analytical essay like Shaw or Dickens. For example Shaw wrote so well , that he was roped in as a Fabian Socialist and his writings and comments resulted in keeping a tab on the medical profession ( A doctor's dilemma). Shaw was the architect of many social security reforms in many western countries ( of course with the present globalisation it is under threat). Shaw's writing was never convoluted. The present day writers like Arundati etc write like they would like to fart artistically. This farty conclusion is like a Salvadorian Dalian hypothesis. In sum you could call this "Rants from Arundati".

gajanan
Sydney, Australia
Dec 17, 2008 12:00 AM
283
Reading an online article according to Outlook's notion of substance is no better than reading the online comments according to Outlook's notion of style.

Which moron of a w3b d3zin3r came up with this? Go to the last page, scroll down to the end, scroll up to the top of the last -- er, first -- comment, read down, scroll up, read down, scroll up, read down, eventually move to the next -- er, previous? -- page, down to the end, up a bit, down, up some more, down... in short, a backwards zigzag.

And lo, this overblown nitwit makes as much sense when her paragraphs are read from back to front. In other words, none at all. Just the usual potted pinko rhetoric on The Manifest Culpability Of All Those Evil Hindus Or Somesuch...

The real point, it seems, was to have this flatulence effluviated -- er, published -- twice. Outlook was the side show. The main program was on that paragon of effete leftist dhimmitude, the Guardian. From where the odor has been picked up by the "Plank" bloggers of the New Republic, and thus propagated to other citadels of "liberal" flabthink.

Yawb.
Arjun Ray
New York, United States
Dec 17, 2008 12:00 AM
284
"if we do not punish the terrorists in the government AKA Modi"
Why not Bush? Why not the notorious ISI ? Why not the states which have erred? She leaves the 1984 anti Sikh riots in her discourse. If she is fair she must include all and not be partial in her discourse.
gajanan
Sydney, Australia
Dec 17, 2008 12:00 AM
285
Gajanan

"Why not Bush? Why not the notorious ISI ? Why not the states which have erred?"

Arundhati has called Bush a murder. Google Arundhati and Iraq war tribunal.

The reason for specifying Modi is because Bush is not governing India, and neither is the ISI. It is not possible for us to do anything about Bush. We should do whatever we can about the ISI. But we cannot have a criminal like Modi inside the government.
root2squared
Stamford, United States
Dec 17, 2008 12:00 AM
286
What about the anti Sikh riots in 1984 , why she silent on this? I mean, I ask again, why is she silenty on this. You failed to mention that in your reply.
gajanan
Sydney, Australia
Dec 17, 2008 12:00 AM
287
gajanan
Sydney, Australia
Dec 17, 2008 12:00 AM
288
Why do you think she has to mention each and every incident that has happened? She is talking about the current events in Mumbai. 1984 is a long long time ago.
root2squared
Stamford, United States
Dec 17, 2008 12:00 AM
289
>>Only idiots like Bill Warner and you would use terms like Islamic terrorism or Hindu terrorism.

Add hajdeep sardesai, burkha dutt , parnob roy , vir sanghvi and numerous other sucular intellectulas to the list , who had no problem in calling sadhvi/ malegaon case as hindu terrorism.
lookout bug me not
mumbai, India
Dec 17, 2008 12:00 AM
290
in her essay she writes
"the demolition of the Babri Masjid in 1992"
If she can go back to 1992 she can go back to 1984 also. This is 2008, So it is exactly 24 yrs ago, 1984. A generation lives for 70 yrs. 1992 was 16 yrs ago, 1984 was 24 yrs ago. Why do you think it was a long time ago? 1992 is 23% of a generation while 1984 is 34 % of a generation. All this is in post independence India after 1947. I am not raking any dates before 1947. So 1984, anti Sikh riot is a very significant episode in post independence India. She never mentions 1984 riots in her essays. if you find it anywhere in her essays, please post the reference.
gajanan
Sydney, Australia
Dec 17, 2008 12:00 AM
291
Religion is a huge factor in terrorism. So, yes, both Hindu and Islamic terrorism are acceptable terms to distinguish between different types of terrorism.
root2squared
Stamford, United States
Dec 17, 2008 12:00 AM
292
The Indian armed forces,which Chandan seems to have no respect for,are in Kashmir and Nagaland to combat the violent insurgenicies cum terrorist movements against India. They are not there for the fun of it. The Indian government has tried to 'solve' the problem by recourse to supporting local democracy and local governance. A large number of people in Nagaland and a significant number in Kashmir- basically everyone outside the valley and even an appreciable number within it- certainly are well disposed to Indian democratic federalism, since it obviously accomodates them linguistically and culturally. The system allows for a huge degree of freedom domestically, though not of course the freedom to separate.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Dec 17, 2008 12:00 AM
293
These were Muslim terrorists. The relevant incidents are therefore the Babri masjid and the Gujarat riots.

What would be the point of talking about the Sikh riots here?
root2squared
Stamford, United States
Dec 17, 2008 12:00 AM
294
>>But we cannot have a criminal like Modi inside the government.

If you have any proof , relocate to India ,file a PIL in supreme cort of India , with relevant data. Better still start a political party here & finish modis career for good.

Till then give a much needed break to unsolicited to Advise from stamford to Indians in India , on how to elect their leaders 7 run their polity.
lookout bug me not
mumbai, India
Dec 17, 2008 12:00 AM
295
>>These were Muslim terrorists. The relevant incidents are therefore the Babri masjid and the Gujarat riots.

What about the systematic rape, killing and genocide of hindu pandits in kashmir, which happened even before babri or gujarat?
lookout bug me not
mumbai, India
Dec 17, 2008 12:00 AM
296

Punish those responsible in all cases, whether they are Hindus or Muslims or anything else. But, remember, it is a lot more dangerous to have terrorists in your own government than on the outside.

This is an online Internet forum, so feel free to ignore my advice. In case you are unable to do so, I suggest you visit every website and every forum on the Internet and ask people who post opinions that you do not agree with, to stop posting on the internet so that you do not have to read them.
root2squared
Stamford, United States
Dec 17, 2008 12:00 AM
297
A point of distinction that is important: People killing other people is very different from government killing people. In the first case, the guilty can be punished by the government. In the second case, the guilty go unpunished. This is a significant factor in creating terrorists.
root2squared
Stamford, United States
Dec 17, 2008 12:00 AM
298
Hah... there's actually an argument going on about whose imaginary friend is better.
root2squared
Stamford, United States
Dec 17, 2008 12:00 AM
299
Learned/Thiagan,

>> The article I have referred to gives a clearer picture.

Your articles are as biased and shallow as yourself.

>> Read the earlier comments and then post.

Do you fancy yourself as a debater? You are just a hate-filled bigot who has actually advocated that those Muslims who stayed behind after partition should have been killed and Muslims in England should be dealt with by someone like Hitler! With what face are you now posing as an interlocutor in this form?

>> The author of the verses is Allah and you are calling him as hateful bigot.

Idiot, those terrorists who utter those verses while carrying out their heinous deeds are hateful bigots, just as despicable as yourself. Are you retarded?

>> My reference to the Mopla riots is the one that is relevent.

Your ignorance about the Moplas riots is as profound as your ignorance on any of the other subjects that you use for your loathsome hate propaganda. You are just an abominable human being.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 17, 2008 12:00 AM
300
L:>>"Moorthy in the end was buried as a Muslim"

He will soon rise up as a monster to destroy malaysia. All hindus in malaysia should come back into central india.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Dec 17, 2008 12:00 AM
301
"The problem for India — and for Pakistan — is that extreme Hindu nationalism has been fed mightily by the Mumbai murders. Zealots like Rajnath Singh are rubbing their hands and licking their lips because they want to get rid of decent men like Dr Singh and the equally cerebral Mr Palaniappan Chidambaram, who has just been appointed home minister in lieu of Mr Shivraj Patil, who took responsibility for the decidedly unstructured response to the attack and most honourably resigned. (British politicians please copy. Fat chance.)

Who benefits from the Mumbai slaughter? Certainly not India’s Congress-led coalition government, tottering as it is with shaky allies. Not the attackers, because all but one are dead, and he’ll never see the light of day again. And certainly not Pakistan, which has quite enough problems on its plate at the moment without getting involved in foreign forays. (According to the UN, some 1445 civilians were killed in Pakistan in the first eight months of 2008; about 800 by homegrown fanatics and the rest by illegal foreign airstrikes.)

So who, then, benefits?

One answer, unfortunately, is the BJP and its supporters in such sinister organisations as the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS), the Vishwa Hindu Parishad (VHP), and the Shiv Sena (SS). In November, the Independent reported the SS leader, Bal Thackeray, as having written that “The threat of Islamic terror in India is rising. It is time to counter the same with Hindu terror. Hindu suicide squads should be readied to ensure the existence of Hindu society and to protect the nation.”


http://communalism.blog...l-reap-benefits-of.html

Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 17, 2008 12:00 AM
302
" because they want to get rid of decent men like Dr Singh and the equally cerebral Mr Palaniappan Chidambaram, who has just been appointed home minister in lieu of Mr Shivraj Patil, who took responsibility for the decidedly "


Surely these are the decent people for the killers who who devasted us.That is why you want us to continue with these decent ones .
Khushi Ram
ambala cantt, India
Dec 17, 2008 12:00 AM
303
More miracles from islam....

This time, its Legalized gender bias - not some shady roadside fringe fanatics spreading a message of bias, but a "constitutional body" which advises the National legislature of a terrorist Islamic state....

[ISLAMABAD, DEC 16 (PTI) Challenging the concept of gender equality, an influential religious panel in Pakistan has said it goes "against" Islamic principles.

The Council of Islamic Ideology, a constitutional body that advises the legislature on whether laws are in line with Islamic principles, has recommended to the government that provisions referring to gender equality should be deleted from laws.

The body made the recommendations in the course of reviewing the working of the National Commission on the Status of Women, Dawn News channel reported today.

The council's recommendations questioned the concept of gender equality in Pakistani laws and described it as "impractical and against Islamic principles"....]
lookout bug me not
mumbai, India
Dec 17, 2008 12:00 AM
304
Learned/Thiagan,

>> Islam in action, Christian graveyard demolished to house a shopping mall in Pakistan; earlier it was a temple.

Idiot, are you going to blame Islam for the actions of the Pakistani government? Are you retarded?
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 17, 2008 12:00 AM
305
>>But, remember, it is a lot more dangerous to have terrorists in your own government than on the outside.

Patented CAIR jihadi tactic of equating victims of terrorism to terrorists ! The police & the NSG who shot jihadi terrorists are NOT terrorists.

Btw, The indian voter decides on who has to be his leader..not an arm chair crtic from youessofffa.
lookout bug me not
mumbai, India
Dec 17, 2008 12:00 AM
306
"Idiot, are you going to blame Islam for the actions of the Pakistani government? "

Pakistan is ruled under Nizame -Mustafa and Hadeed laws .
Khushi Ram
ambala cantt, India
Dec 17, 2008 12:00 AM
307
Learned/Thiagan,

>> I deny having said that.

Liar, you clearly said that Muslims staying in India after partition should have been killed, and that Muslims in England should be dealt with by someone like Hitler. You are not going to be able to wiggle out of that with your lying. Those remarks tell a lot more about you than your silly pretensions at being a knowledgeable debater.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 17, 2008 12:00 AM
308
>>This is an online Internet forum, so feel free to ignore my advice.

Just as you are free to offer advice on an internet forum, others are free to ask you to save it for the needy and say no thanks.

Btw, when I checked last , atleast the people of gujarat were caring 2 hoots for such unsolicited advice.
lookout bug me not
mumbai, India
Dec 17, 2008 12:00 AM
309
>> Pakistan is ruled under Nizame -Mustafa and Hadeed laws.

Takes an idiot like you to give any credence to those mullahs!
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 17, 2008 12:00 AM
310
>>People killing other people is very different from government killing people.

The souls of all pandits killed by terrorists should feel better now, as they were not killed by state!

>>In the first case, the guilty can be punished by the government.

How many kashmiri muslims have been punished so far for killing 3000+ pandits and making 3lac + refugees ?

>> In the second case, the guilty go unpunished.

Rubbish.Plenty of cases have been filed against forces for human rights violation all over India.

>>This is a significant factor in creating terrorists.

No factor is enough for a civilised human being to take up terorism and kill innocents,,but for a jihadi it is a different matter altogether.
lookout bug me not
mumbai, India
Dec 17, 2008 12:00 AM
311
"idiot like you to give any credence to those mullahs!"

Sir that is incorporated in the Costitution of the Pakisatn-a Nation created in name of Islam .
Khushi Ram
ambala cantt, India
Dec 17, 2008 12:00 AM
312
Learned/Thiagan,

>> The earlier instance was Goebbels; he framed the rule that you reapeat the lie hundred times, it becomes the truth.

You are the barefaced liar emulating Goebbels! You have clearly expressed genocidal wishes in this forum. You are not going to lie your way out of it.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 17, 2008 12:00 AM
313
Learned/Thiagan,

>> Pakistan is the Islamic state and is ruled by shariaa. According to shariaa, even the presence of non muslims is an evil that should be eliminated;

So you are an expert on sharia too! All you are is a dope and a bore.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 17, 2008 12:00 AM
314
"No factor is enough for a civilised human being to take up terorism and kill innocents,,but for a jihadi it is a different matter altogether."


Unfortunately, jihad is a Koranic mandate-chief reason why tens of millions of Hindus-Buddhists were killid by the jihadi theocratic fascists. There are millions of Muslims who do not follow violent jihad but there is no peaceful/moderate Islam. That's why Muslims are our friends but Islam is the greatest and perhaps the only existential threat to Hindus, in India
Rose
New York, United States
Dec 17, 2008 12:00 AM
315
>>"Thet were empire builders and gold seekers and militarists. They happened to be Muslims, but were not paragons of Islam".

But, in madarsas world over, qusims, gazznis and ghauris are being eulogized as paragons of islam only; pakisthan, the only moslem nuclear-weapon
state in the world, names its missiles after gazznis, ghauris only.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Dec 17, 2008 12:00 AM
316
Through this essay Arundhati Roy brought out many chilling facts. The media especially the visual ones for their TRPs boost, played a different game at the incident sites totally neglecting the plight of the ordinary people who faced death at VT station. Some print media covered showed their interest to cover this. In short, ‘whoever may be our politicians or the media they want gain out of any pathetic situation’ this is very sad. Arundhati’s essay is an eye opener.
P V Ariel
philip verghese ariel
Secunderabad, India
Dec 17, 2008 12:00 AM
317
Bharati:>>"A hero gets final rites against the wishes of his own family"

Perhaps, moslems in malaysia want their whole landscape to be fully covered moslem buriyals to be islamically holy. Govts of india and malaysia can come to an agreemeent. We can take all hindu citizens and families there, back into india. For each such, they can take two SIMI type indian moslems as citizens of malaysia, to be buried in their holy-land. They can make incentive payments to attract these indian Simians to shift there and have their shops and professions there.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Dec 17, 2008 12:00 AM
318
L::>>"It is considered to be modern and moderate muslim country, because it has not produced any terrorists till date. Now the government is run by a party which swears by pure Islam".

The non-moslems of malaysia should seek justice at the international court of justice, in The Hague, against the islamic nazism being practiced there, against non-moslems.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Dec 17, 2008 12:00 AM
319
Anwar miyan,

The links that you post are as hilarious.

“So who, then, benefits?
One answer, unfortunately, is the BJP and its supporters…”

Why don’t you just spit it out? That its BJP and sanghis who were behind the terror attack on Mumbai?
Kiran Bagachi
mumbai, India
Dec 17, 2008 12:00 AM
320
“You clearly expressed genocidal wishes in this forum…”

This is not addressed to me, but is repeated ad nauseam by Anwar miyan here…I wonder what right do you have miyan, to call names to somebody who just WISHES for a genocide. You pay regular membership fee to an organization, which ACTUALLY fired on Indian troops in Kashmir.

Then you come and sit in here like a saint, doling advise of peace and harmony and chastising people who don’t agree with you! hypocrite, liar, and GADDAR!! And then you ask why muslim loyalty is suspected for their motherland!
Kiran Bagachi
mumbai, India
Dec 17, 2008 12:00 AM
321
BH:>>"Teesta setelvad & CJP caught lying !!"

The main tv media channels shuld stop inviting this setalvad lady for their discussin programs.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Dec 17, 2008 12:00 AM
322
All my friends who talk of persecution of Muslims from Kahmir to Kanyakumari as the reason for terrorism must remember that it all started after the PAKIs were decimated in the 1971 War- when 1,00,000 Lakh Pakis from Generals to Soldiers surrendered before Indian Army. It is apt that the Jehadis trained by the PAKI ARMY kills innocent people and dare not take on the "Armed Forces of India" till date. The fear that ingrained in the PAKI ARMY psyche when they were at the mercy of Indian Soldiers still persist. Every Indian- irrespective of their religion- must realise that terrorism India is facing is PROXY- WAR by PAKIs, because their ARMY is mortally afraid of fighting Indian Armed Forces after the defeat of 1971. Even during Kargil War, Paki Army was careful to project it as "Kashmiri Jehadi incursion" although Paki Soldiers fought the WAR and even refused to accept the dead body of their soldier!!!
Akil
Bangalore, India
Dec 17, 2008 12:00 AM
323
I dont know why Faruki posts nut case articles like "Who benefits"?

As I mentioned before, the person who benefitted most from the murder of Gandhi was Nehru. The person most benefitted from the murder of Indira was Rajiv. Why not apply the "who benefits" test there??

Faruki and his nut case friends are real funny.
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Dec 17, 2008 12:00 AM
324
Vivek:>>"Gita cassette where Krishna says: "I am not God but God is within you".

No such statement in gita, in that format. Must be some motivated translation into another language. In the chapter following viSwaroopa-darSana, He explains how indwells all the divines and humans and lives in the cosmos, besides retraining the evils as and when they arise.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Dec 17, 2008 12:00 AM
325
"Karkare a victim of terrorism plus something: Antulay
Wed, Dec 17 05:16 PM

In remarks that kicked off a controversy, Union Minority Affairs Minister A R Antulay on Wednesday raised doubts whether Pakistani terrorists killed Maharashtra ATS Chief Hemant Karkare suggesting it could be due to his investigation of the Malegaon blasts.

Maintaining that 'there is more than what meets the eyes', he said Karkare was investigating some cases in which 'there are non-Muslims also', an apparent reference to the Malegaon blasts case in which Sadhvi Pragya Thakur and a Lt Colonel Shrikant Prasad Purohit were 11 persons to be arrested.

Antulay said, "This is beyond my comprehension why Karkare didn't go to Taj, Oberoi or Nariman House where the terrorists were holed up. Why he chose to go to a different place".

"It may be a separate inquiry how his (Karkare's) end came, Antulay said.

The Minister's remarks came under immediate attack from BJP which asked the Prime Minister to clarify whether his remarks are an 'individual misdemeanour or the collective wisdom of the Cabinet.'

"The remarks are obnoxious and deserves a clarification from the Prime Minister," BJP spokesman Rajiv Pratap Rudy said.

He said, "Karkare found that there are non Muslims involved in the acts terrorism during his investigations in some cases. Any person going to the roots of terror has always been the target".

"Superficially speaking they (terrorists) had no reason to kill Karkare. Whether he (Karkare) was a victim of terrorism or terrorism plus something. I do not know," he added."

Muslims can'tbe lieve that Muslim Terrorists can kill Karkare.So must be Hindus.Poor man is greving for the death of Karkare at th esame time have not the courag eto admit the facts.

ANOTHER STICK FOR PAKISTAN TO BEAT US.AND ANTULEY SAID IN THE HOUSE AND IS THE MINISTER ALSO .
Khushi Ram
ambala cantt, India
Dec 17, 2008 12:00 AM
326
AKG from dawn:>>"joint investigation is also necessary"

Pak inside india seems to be teaming up pak and pok. Antulay is asking for investig whether hinduists killed karkare! Perhaps, he was the real coordinator and guiding spirit, as ministry of minority affairs, in the cooking up of the hindutva-terror by SR & RR Patils, both of whom have resigned; he must be very unhappy.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Dec 17, 2008 12:00 AM
327
Kashmiri pundit souls?

There is no such thing as a soul. When you die, it's over. What is pathetic is you using a tragedy and someone's grief to excuse Hindu terrorism. It is cheap and degrading to human life.
root2squared
Stamford, United States
Dec 17, 2008 12:00 AM
328
Learned/Thiagan,

>> If Britain does not listen to Thackerey...

So you want the Britons to develop suicide bombers just as Bal Thackerey wants his sainiks to do! You are beginning to reveal your true colors! The Brits will handle the problem in their own civilized way.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 17, 2008 12:00 AM
329
Rose/Bodepudi,

>> jihad is a Koranic mandate.

Jihad in the Quran refers to a struggle to improve one's self and/or society. You however who have actually advocated murder and genocide in this forum may project your own evil impulses on to others, being the hate propagandist that you are.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 17, 2008 12:00 AM
330
""Karkare a victim of terrorism plus something: Antulay "

I have a guess what that something is. It is simply that Karkare had rented a DVD and failed to return it on date.

That anger made the.............to kill Karkare.

Now that we have to explore nonsense, let us leave no stone unturned.
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Dec 17, 2008 12:00 AM
331
Seshadri,

>> qusims, gazznis and ghauris are being eulogized as paragons of islam.

They may be eulogized as military heroes and conquerors, but not as paragons of Islam.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 17, 2008 12:00 AM
332
Actually, jihad is whatever you want it to be. So for moderates, it is an inner struggle, but for extremists it is outer violence. Since all religions are man made constructs, they can be interpreted as wanted.
root2squared
Stamford, United States
Dec 17, 2008 12:00 AM
333
Bagachi,

>> call names to somebody who just WISHES for a genocide. You pay regular membership fee to an organization, which ACTUALLY fired on Indian troops in Kashmir.

CAIR is not responsible for the criminal acts of a member. CAIR has severely condemned the terrorist attack on Mumbai. It has consistently denounced Al Qaeda. It has participated in several programs of interfaith dialogue. Its major work is as an advocacy group and as a civil rights organization.

I am shocked that you use the phrase "who just wishes for a genocide". I do not take such wishes lightly. Both Rose/Bodepudi and Educated/Thiagan are in this forum with the sole purpose of fanning anti-Muslim hatred. Putting up with such activity is not consistent with my image of India.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 17, 2008 12:00 AM
334
kearned/Thiagan,

>> "Through this essay Arundhati Roy brought out many chilling facts." The following are the chilling facts.

The chilling fact from your lousy post is that you will go to any length and tell any lies in the pursuit of your despicable agenda of exacerbating anti-Muslim hatred.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 17, 2008 12:00 AM
335
"Rose/Bodepudi and Educated/Thiagan are in this forum with the sole purpose of fanning anti-Muslim hatred" Anwar Patel

All these fake names are your creation. You were the one acted as a thought cop resultring in multiple identities as Outlook kept on restricting freedom of thought of Hindus, in this very forum. Incidentally, though you called me many names-my name is not Bodepudi

1 CAIR's civil rights activities are a front for its secret mission of spreading Islam through overt and covert support to jihadi groups in India, and in the US.

2 Hatred and violence against innocent individuals is a zero sum game and I never advocated even the death penalty for a proven criminal like a Bin Laden. Muslims are innocent victims of an outdated theocratic dogma that led to millions of Hindu-Buddist deaths and unending civil strife

3 Moderate Muslims are thiose who have renounced the fundamental teachings from the Koran. There are millions of them. But there is no moderate Islam

4 Growth of Islam inevitably means the extinction of Hinduism, in India. This is based on FACTS and REASON



Rose
New York, United States
Dec 17, 2008 12:00 AM
336

*** Have you heard of circular reasoning Varun? If you have not, that is what you are resorting to. It is a patently dishonest attempt at looking at the issues that plague Indian society. But it is your choice, like it is to a vast segment of the responders to Arundhati's article in this forum. Only question is whether you doing it knowingly or because are clueless. I will let it go at that.

*** I have nothing for or against the Indian Army. My issue is with the civilians, the politicians--those pillars of desi-demokrasy--who have been using the might of the armed forces to squelch public discontent, with full compliance of the apathetic and democracy-ignorant intelligentsia that you Sir representing.

*** It is quite laughable to read the outpouring of hostility towards Indian governance--desi-demokrasy that is-- and your defense of it from Toronto.

Good luck to you. And to the hapless, learning disabled India.
Chandan K Mahanta
St. Louis, United States
Dec 17, 2008 12:00 AM
337
Ganesan,

>> As I mentioned before, the person who benefitted most from the murder of Gandhi was Nehru. The person most benefitted from the murder of Indira was Rajiv.

Both those statements are not only cynical but also malicious. Brian Cloughley's article on the other hand makes some cogent and lucid points.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 17, 2008 12:00 AM
338
Stopperbhai,

>> Mr.AR.Antulay put to shame the Indian Muslims.

He knows that the terrorist attack came from Pakistan, but he suspects that Karkare was killed by a side plot. I don't know why he thinks that because such a side plot occuring in the middle of a major terrorist attack would be beyond the imaagination of even the craziest Bollywood scenarist.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 17, 2008 12:00 AM
339
root2squared,

>> Actually, jihad is whatever you want it to be. So for moderates, it is an inner struggle, but for extremists it is outer violence.

But there can be general consensus that religious faith is personal and that all injustices, rights etc can be fought through humanist secular democracy, courts, law enforcement agencies, secular constitution etc. Islam is not there yet. In this age of high-tech weapons like AK47s, Nuclear weapons etc that can inflict huge damage, it is indeed a matter of concern, that such a consensus is yet to emerge.
It is not enough for the moderate muslims to make statements/fatwas/declarations like “terrorism is unislamic” etc. Instead, they should work overtime and with a sense of urgency to bring about such consensus (mentioned above) as normative of Islamic mainstream orthodoxy (most of moderates being people who agree to the concept of secularism in matters of governance and many of them being people living as minorities in just secular governments that pledge to protect the rights/justice of all citizens).
Kumar
Bangalore, India
Dec 17, 2008 12:00 AM
340
>If you had stayed back in India and sincerely worked in the way you have lectured us all to >observe, we would have appreciated you. All that your ilk do is -sit in the comfort of a foreign >country and lecture us on values.

>And you talk with the same arrogance as A.Roy without accepting responsibility.

>If you have contributed any thing specifically to India, please let us know. Otherwise save your >breath and keep your arm chair lectures to yourself dear.
>Leave it to us living in India and you just take care of yourself and your income.

Bharathy Dear,

Yours is a very old argument and a meaningless one at that.

*** First off, had I stayed in India, more than likely, I would be ignorant of democratic values; as the overwhelming majority of these posts in this forum proves beyond all reasonable doubt.

*** My locale or my persona does not, in any way, shape or form, add to or subtract from the substance of my arguments. It is not about me. Nor is it about Arundhati Roy.

*** Arundhati bares the rotten core of that segment of the Indian polity that has been running the country since independence for all the world to see. That bugs the heck out of those, who having secured their own lots, now seek respect from the world. So what do they do? They attack AR. They can't refute a word of what she writes in great and eminently credible detail and instead tries to kill the messenger. But that part of the world whose attention and approval this lot so seeks, is not all that
clueless.

*** I may be arrogant, but not dishonest like those in this forum who are indulging in these mindless, ignorant, bigotry and hatred-laden blather that paints a pathetic picture of some of India's most fortunate and arguably its most informed. But if this is their best, heaven help India!

*** My contribution/s to India or lack of it is MY business. It does not, as I wrote above, in any way, shape or form, add or subtract from the core of my arguments. There would be no need for arrogant ones like myself to get involved in these inane arguments, had desi-intelligentsia as represented in this forum, had a clue towards contributing something constructive to their collective well-being.

Good luck to you all.
Chandan K Mahanta
St. Louis, United States
Dec 17, 2008 12:00 AM
341
>> I don't know why he thinks that because such a side plot occuring in the middle of a major terrorist attack would be beyond the imaagination of even the craziest Bollywood scenarist.

But not our seculars and liberals.

Incidentally, one of your favorite sites, countercurrents, also had an article along these lines

http://www.countercurrents.org/rh081208.htm
Al Bundy
San Francisco, United States
Dec 17, 2008 12:00 AM
342
>> The person most benefitted from the murder of Indira was Rajiv.

And Sonia benefited the most from the deaths of Rajiv, Rajesh Pilot and Scindia.
Al Bundy
San Francisco, United States
Dec 17, 2008 12:00 AM
343
Rose/Bodepudi,

>> All these fake names are your creation. You were the one acted as a thought cop resultring in multiple identities as Outlook kept on restricting freedom of thought of Hindus.

Your fake identities and Learned/Thiagan's fake identities were created by the two of you and no one else. I sometimes bring exceptionally egregious hate material to the attention of the editor. He may do with it whatever he wishes.

You have clearly advocated the razing of mosques and the killing of imams. You have also advocated genocide. I also caught you red-handed trying to post using my ID! You may deny all of the above but all of it is true.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 17, 2008 12:00 AM
344
A Google search of "Muslims against terrorism" yields 327,000 results.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 17, 2008 12:00 AM
345
>> Both those statements are not only cynical but also malicious.

So, according to you, there is nothing cynical or malicious in doing a cost/benefit analysis of the terror attack, and worry more about the possible benefits BJP might accrue, instead of worrying about lapses in security, threat to our national security from Jihadi attacks, and sadness at the loss of innocent lives.

Bravo!
Al Bundy
San Francisco, United States
Dec 17, 2008 12:00 AM
346
Root2 Squared, your justification of Islamic terrorism by citing Gujarat and Ayodhya is disgusting. So are you maintaining that it is okay for any Moslem to come to Mumbai and start a massacre spree, based on Gujarat and Ayodhya? And how long are Moslems going to avenge those incidents, every year for the next 100 years? There were Islamic attacks in Gujarat in 2002 itself, namely Akshardham, and one year later at the Bombay gateway. There was an Islamic terror attack on a Mumbai suburban train in 2006. Many terror attacks in Delhi, Hyderabad, Varanasi and Ahmedabad. These are all essentially Islamic terrorism designed to both punish India and weaken it economically.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Dec 17, 2008 12:00 AM
347
Oh and Roto Squared, you smugly refer to Moslems retaliating. What about Hindus in Bangladesh, Pakistan and within India itself in Kashmir? Those places must be paragons of secular, tolerant, transcendant pluralism, since Hindus are not resorting to terrorism over there!
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Dec 17, 2008 12:00 AM
348
>> Now that we have to explore nonsense, let us leave no stone unturned.

While scoundrels like Antulay are behaving exactly like we expect the liberals and seculars to behave, a more worrying aspect is, why were the Jihadis not scared of Karkare or ATS?

Were the ATS and Karkare involved in investigating only Abhinav Bharat and other Hindu organizations? Were there no attacks in Bombay from the Jihadi factory that needed to be investigated? Was the ATS doing anything about attempting to identify and neutralize threats from Jihadis?

Maybe if ATS had spent some effort in doing its job, instead of spending its entire energy and focus on investigating suspected Hindu terrorists, they might have prevented the Mumbai terror attacks.
Al Bundy
San Francisco, United States
Dec 17, 2008 12:00 AM
349
i presume that the editor considers all of faruki,s comments to be polite,decent.

what is the name of the editor.

i had to change my id- to benito adolfo, the one
was a fascist and the other a nazi.

i have to thank faruki for this.in public schools
its called snitching. i dont know about madrassahs.
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
Dec 17, 2008 12:00 AM
350
"Both those statements are not only cynical but also malicious. Brian Cloughley's article on the other hand makes some cogent and lucid points."

ofcourse. Nut case ideas appeal to you.
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Dec 17, 2008 12:00 AM
351
Varun

You have a severe case of the stupids. Your simple brain caabot comprehend the complexities of life, so it tried to simplify the problem itself. Unfortunately there is no simple way of curing mental deficiencies. It takes hard work. I suggest you go and read some books on logic and morality.

root2squared
Stamford, United States
Dec 17, 2008 12:00 AM
352
ANTULAY SAB IS RATTLED BY SOME CLAUSE IN THE ANTI- TERRORIST LAW BEING PASSED by the Parliament for making such a wild allegation and evidently it has to do something with "money flowing into India" from "outside" of which ANTULAY SAAB must be a major recipient because CONGRESEES SITING PRETTY IN "OFFICE OF PROFIT" ARE KNOWN TO STICK THEIR HEAD OUT ONLY WHEN THEY ARE ABOUT TO LOSE "HARD CASH IN LARGE QUANTITIES". So the CBI must investigate Antulay on source of his "Havala" income OR SHALL WE TELL THE CIA???
Akil
Bangalore, India
Dec 17, 2008 12:00 AM
353
khushi ram

i have stated quite a few time that many muslims
can not use reason. that is why they latch on to the most absurd conspiracy theories.

most pakistani,s have conned themselves, that
the mumbai attack was done by hindu fanatics,
with help from the zionists. they killed the jews
to give it the seal of reality.

can anyone tell me why these people think like they do.
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
Dec 17, 2008 12:00 AM
354
Learned from LA wrote:

> Your reference is irrelevent. Why the army is not stationed in >Karnataka or Andhra Pradesh? There is no insurgency there; if >there is one, the army will go and kill to quell the insurgency.

*** Learned Sir, what you miss here is that INSURGENT is a LABEL. There are actual human beings behind those labels, designed to rob them of their humanity. Insurgents don't just happen . PEOPLE, HUMANS become insurgents, when the STATE no longer provides the institutions for RESOLVING the conflicts
in a civilized manner, without having to resort to violence.

India is riven by violence of many kinds, springing from many sources. Arundhati points them out well. It is about time India took note and those fancying themselves to be learned, learned.
Chandan K Mahanta
St. Louis, United States
Dec 17, 2008 12:00 AM
355
Chandan

Well said.
root2squared
Stamford, United States
Dec 17, 2008 12:00 AM
356
Root2Squared , I mentioned Gujarat and Ayodhya because people like you constantly bring them up anytime a terrorist massacre spree occurs. If some Pakistanis hijack a fishing boat, decapitate the crew and then start mass murdering people in Mumbai hotels, restaurants, railway stations and movie theatres, are people like you going to explain it away by chanting "Gujarat and Ayodhya" for the next friggin 100 years?
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Dec 17, 2008 12:00 AM
357
Insurgents as human.. technically yes. But the motive and fundamental ideology for their insurgency has to be examined. It's not enough to say " I hate the Indian state" or "We in Nagaland have different facial features than most Indians". And then start killing and massacring everyone, including one's own community, who dissents even a little(!) from this position. Insurgencies and separatist movements, particularly in the 21st century, should be premised on, and envision something better than what they are opposing. Otherwise, all you will get is another Myanmar, Pakistan or North Korea. After all, the Indian freedom movement desired more, not less, democracy, openness and pluralism than what existed under the British. And the anti-apartheid movement was certainly not about replacing White racism with Black- that the Africans haven't managed things well is of course another matter!
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Dec 17, 2008 12:00 AM
358
Varun

Please try to understand what I'm saying instead of erecting strawmen.

Terrorism is not justifiable in any circumstances. This means that the Islamic terrorists should be severely punished. This is so obvious that it is not worth shouting out every time, because EVERYONE agrees on this.

Will it make you happy if I shout the obvious? If so, here you go:

MUSLIM TERRORISTS MUST BE PUNISHED!
PAKISTAN MUST BE PRESSURED TO STOP TERRORISM!
ISLAMIC TERRORISM IS DESTROYING THE WORLD!

What many do not realize is that people like Modi and Bal Thackeray are also terrorists who need to be punished. This follows simply from justice. You need to understand that criticising Hindu terrorism does not mean someone is justifying Islamic terrorism. That is a false dichotomy. If you have people like Modi and Thackeray in the government, they undermine the principles of justice and democracy. If your response to Islamic terrorists is to kill innocent Muslims, then there is no difference between you and the terrorists. It does not matter who started it. You cannot kill innocent people, period. If the government is not able to punish the Muslim terrorists, it does not mean you have to punish the innocent Muslims.

Bringing up Ayodhya and Gujarat is important because these are incidents that destroy the country from within. It will lead down the path to a total breakdown of democracy and will turn India into a Hindu mirror of the horrible Islamic states which have complete disregard for human rights, women, and freedoms.

root2squared
Stamford, United States
Dec 17, 2008 12:00 AM
359
Banito/Lalit,

>>i had to change my id- to benito adolfo, the one was a fascist and the other a nazi. i have to thank faruki for this.

I have complained about you in the past, but not this time. However your new ID suits you.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 17, 2008 12:00 AM
360
>> A Google search of "Muslims against terrorism" yields 327,000 results.

May be, the goal is to see zero results on such a search .. the point being, it should become a non-issue. The goal should be that there should not be any doubt in any ones mind (mainstream, normative) whether terrorism and mix of politics/violence/revenge and religion etc are part of Islam or not.
The moderates cannot wash away their hands by simply shrugging “hey, please don’t blame Islam for what the extremists do". They have a greater responsibility - to strive relentlessly, argue, debate and decisively win the theological argument against the extremists (and also win against the arguments of critics of Islam who say that the extremist position is the original position of the founder and the Islamic scripture). That is how reform happened in all other religions.
The issue is larger than some subjective theological/doctrinal difference between moderates and extremists. It impacts the life/rights/freedom/justice of the people at large. There are millions of muslims who support democracy, secularism in governance, universal human rights etc. They are the key to ideological war against islamist terror. Only they need to act with a sense of urgency.
Kumar
Bangalore, India
Dec 17, 2008 12:00 AM
361
Varun wrote:

> " I hate the Indian state" or "We in Nagaland have different >facial features than most Indians".

*** That is yet another example of your utterly dishonest arguments. You make up a stupid comment, attribute to Kshmiris or Nagas or Assamese or whatever suits your purpose and then go on to demolish it. Is that any way to help solve India's conflicts? Is that the best you have to contribute?



Chandan K Mahanta
St. Louis, United States
Dec 17, 2008 12:00 AM
362
>Please try to understand what I'm saying instead of erecting strawmen.--------

Well said Root 2Sq.
Chandan K Mahanta
St. Louis, United States
Dec 17, 2008 12:00 AM
363
We need the Muslim moderates to draw Mohammed cartoons and stand up to the extremists. You cannot whine like children just because you feel insulted. You do not have the right not to be insulted.
root2squared
Stamford, United States
Dec 17, 2008 12:00 AM
364
>> mentioned Gujarat and Ayodhya because people .. constantly bring them up anytime a terrorist massacre spree occurs
>> going to explain it away by chanting "Gujarat and Ayodhya" for the next friggin 100 years?

True, but what is the problem? Why not join in unequivocally condemning all acts of innocent killing, riots, rape, terror etc?
Kumar
Bangalore, India
Dec 17, 2008 12:00 AM
365
My 'contribution' to the Kashmir and Assam issues is to totally agree with the Indian government's and Indian society's position that these are integral parts of India, and that these states already possess considerable freedom and democracy within their borders. And that the repression that you and Miss Roy scream and shout about from the rooftops cannot even begin to compare with the repression in North Korea, Saudi Arabia, China or Myanmar, states not afflicted in the least by terrorism! Something does not feel right here.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Dec 17, 2008 12:00 AM
366
You realise that one of the first things people sympathetic to Naga separatism say is that "Nagas look different than the majority of people in India. They have Mongoloid type features" These sympathisers do NOT aver that the Nagas are fighting a progressive, just cause for a democratic, pluralistic, open, modern state. Or do you have evidence to the contrary. I would LOVE to be proven utterly wrong on this one.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Dec 17, 2008 12:00 AM
367
>> You do not have the right not to be insulted.

True! But one has the right to insult back. Instead of insulting the religion of the offender, one may choose to insult the offender himself.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 17, 2008 12:00 AM
368
"True! But one has the right to insult back. Instead of insulting the religion of the offender, one may choose to insult the offender himself."

Self-styled "progressives" tend to look very sympathetically at Moslems when they go nuts over any insult, real or perceived, to their Prophet, Book or religion. But when Hindus enact a comparatively much milder response to slights and insults toward Hindu symbols, the "progressives" reaction to those Hindus is proportionately harsher. Sheesh!

Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Dec 17, 2008 12:00 AM
369
Insult back? Yes.
Threaten to kill anyone who is critical of your religion? No!
root2squared
Stamford, United States
Dec 17, 2008 12:00 AM
370
>My 'contribution' to the Kashmir and Assam issues is to totally >agree with the Indian government's and Indian society's position >that these are integral parts of India,

*** And look where it has led INdia to. If you are satisfied with it, then why are you all upset over Arundhati's views? She has set down ideas on HOW to resolve the conflicts. And you don't even recognize the existence of them. So, your contributions will lead to---pray will you tell us? On second thought never mind!
Chandan K Mahanta
St. Louis, United States
Dec 17, 2008 12:00 AM
371
>"Nagas look different than the majority of people in India. They >have Mongoloid type features"

Your ignorance is boundless.
Chandan K Mahanta
St. Louis, United States
Dec 17, 2008 12:00 AM
372
Varun

I am a progressive and I am all for mocking and ridiculing the wrongs in any religion, including Islam. The followers of the religion need to understand that free speech is more important than their private beliefs.

So your characterization of progressives is wrong. It is always a bad Idea to generalize. Let me take my own advice and rephrase that. It is almost always a bad idea to generalize.

root2squared
Stamford, United States
Dec 18, 2008 12:00 AM
373
>> Threaten to kill anyone who is critical of your religion? No.

In this forum, the threats of murder and genocide are coming from the other side.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 18, 2008 12:00 AM
374
Other side? What is the other side?

How about being on the human side instead of the Muslim side or the Hindu side?
root2squared
Stamford, United States
Dec 18, 2008 12:00 AM
375
> But when Hindus enact a comparatively much milder response ..

Why even go down that route? Is the guy who raped just two women and killed five in Gujarat "better" than the guy who shot down 50 people with Ak47? May be, but why go down that route, why not just condemn all rape/murder/terror? And then, one may argue that there is a more imminent security threat on a grander scale with the guys with Ak47.
Kumar
Bangalore, India
Dec 18, 2008 12:00 AM
376
>> Other side? What is the other side?

Two posters in this forum have advocated killing Muslims. I called them "the other side".
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 18, 2008 12:00 AM
377
I guess we can call the other side the genoside then.
root2squared
Stamford, United States
Dec 18, 2008 12:00 AM
378
Arundhati expects the media to articulate an "authentic Indian" response to our tragedy. Such expectation is misplaced. The clientele of the larger media companies, both print and television, is the upper and middle class of the cities. This clientele appears to be more Western in outlook. Its hopes, dreams, clothes, food, drinks, language etc is more Western than that of the typical villager. The voice of the villager is not frequently found in the mainstream media.

Jaipat S. Jain
mycable
new york, United States
Dec 18, 2008 12:00 AM
379
Hi JSJ:

I agree with your observation that the Indian mainstream media does not reflect the aspirations of the vast majority of Indians who live in the hinterland . In fact, as someone who is an authentic villager, I can vouch without hesitation that today's media and the urban population are abjectly uninformed about the lot of the rural population, their aspirations and their day to day challenges merely to survive. What is really problematic is that they don't care.

Having said that, I can also say with a lot of certainty, that they do understand and care about humane and honorable solutions to the conflicts that have been plaguing India all these decades and that their alienation, at least in the peripheries are real. Of course I can't say that about ALL of India, because my own roots are in what is referred to by intellectually lazy people as a homogenized NE. I know little about rural north or west or south or the center.

The question is IF India's movers and shakers are willing to change the mindset that has institutionalized the status-quo, pursuing the same ineffective policies for decades but expecting different outcomes?

What I see in this forum is that they are neither able nor willing to try.
Chandan K Mahanta
St. Louis, United States
Dec 18, 2008 12:00 AM
380
Mahanta, you would be surprised( I guess) at the ignorance of people displaying sympathy with the Naga separatist cause. One of the very first things they will mention is how "different" the Nagas are in appearance, religion and culture to other Indians. They will not say one single word about the nature or character of this putative independent Naga country. Obviously they haven't given that a moment's consideration! All they are looking at are cultural/linguistic differences, and then using that measuring rod to justify Naga separatism. Needless to say, most of these "commentators" are going by the traditional European concept of the 'nation-state' with one language, one religion, one race. They can't fathom a place like Nagaland, containing people possessing Mongolian type features and following either Christianity or Animism, being in the same 'nation-state' as India, with its brown caucasoid Hindu population.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Dec 18, 2008 12:00 AM
381
mahanta

many moons ago i prepared a smallish memo, advocateing parting with kashmir. its obvious that like all muslims,given the chance they do
not like the idea of liveing under nonmuslims.

however recently i have wondered why the separateists dont go for elections. if they win
and form a govt, then can gradually loosen the
bonds between india and themselves.

or is there a huge mind of perverion in their
mindset. they are incapable of sitting quietly and decideing things. every issue, even insulting
the koran, or mocking the profet results in serious conflicts.

i frequently watch tv programmes fro norway and denmark. the way these people debate and discuss
matters is so civilised, though now and then people do get het up.

i agree that india should allow kashmir to leave
by the back door. india will be greatly benefited, if pakistan wants them and they wish the same,then its a great idea.

benefits are.

aaa the indian army will be freed to do better
things.

bbb defence expenses will be reduced

ccc all the money spent in subsidesing kashmiris
will be saved.

ddd with kashmiri muslims out of our system, it will reduce the need to please the other indian muslims on silly issues.

its a win win situation.
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
Dec 18, 2008 12:00 AM
382
faruki

one way for you to avoid insults would be to stop writeing in this forum.

alternatively write on mughal food, flower
decoration, and about muslims who are doing well
in india- i mean muslim ikons. leave your name aside.
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
Dec 18, 2008 12:00 AM
383
kumar

every morning you should recite all the killings
and genocide committed since the birth of jesus.

after this, have a great cry and solbbing sessions, along with your mom in law.

we dont mind at all.

some of us could donate a bunch of handkerchiefs to you.
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
Dec 18, 2008 12:00 AM
384
Hi Bonito:

What kind of responses did you get from the participants ? Did they come after you like they are doing to Arundhati? Call you names? Declare their OWNERSHIP of the land that the Kashmiris call home ( you know, like a familial inheritance?)

>i agree that india should allow kashmir to leave by the back door. india will be greatly benefited, if >pakistan wants them and they wish the same,then its a great idea.

***I don't like the choice of your language, as in 'allowed to go', implying they are somehow OWNED, slave-like, either by India or by Pakistan.

>benefits are.

>aaa the indian army will be freed to do better things.

*** I am not sure of that. What will half a million soldiers from Kashmir, and another quarter million from the NE will all of a sudden doing, if they were to be drawn down? Can you imagine some gainful activity for them? Right now it is an industry, albeit something that does not produce anything, but surely helps destroy.

>bbb defence expenses will be reduced

*** True.

>ccc all the money spent in subsidesing kashmiris will be saved.

*** I prefer to call it BRIBERY, the quintessential Indian art, the answer to all desi problems. But yes , it would be a humongous saving, and could surely have helped uplift the lives of so many and have prevented the taking-to-arms of so many.


>ddd with kashmiri muslims out of our system, it will reduce the need to please the other indian muslims >on silly issues.

*** India's need to or claim of having to 'please' the Muslims is a myth and a fabrication of Hindu fantasies. Too bad you are still mired in it. Have you ever been to Muslim majority areas of the country? I lived in one once, in Ahmedabad, side by side of the Shahpur/Khanpur slums, which is not quite Dharavi in size, but one of the most horrific shantytowns one could imagine. I don't know if it still exists or if it was incinerated post Godhra. But the affluent Hindu Gujarati s having to please or appease them would be an insult to the intelligence of even an imbecile.

>its a win win situation.

*** That is true. But why would Indians want to win, when they are so smug with losing?
Chandan K Mahanta
St. Louis, United States
Dec 18, 2008 12:00 AM
385
>> … every morning you should recite all the killings and genocide committed since the birth of jesus
>> … after this, have a great cry

Firstly, it is not so much about how long back in history a crime has been committed. It is still an issue of concern and debate if the ideology/doctrine/groups that proclaim it still exist, advocate it and are active enough to carry on their activities. The only way forward is to keep correcting the things and avoid mistakes of the past. Those who do not do it need to be condemned. Secondly, it is not about "crying", but debating about what is right/wrong. That is what democracy is about.
Kumar
Bangalore, India
Dec 18, 2008 12:00 AM
386
faruki

in denmark a member of parliament formed an organisation of moderate muslims. there were 50
muslims and about a thousand danes. hopeful
one would imagine.

however in 3 months tikme the party was over.

the moderate muslims were hunted down, with threats to their lives. they apologised and
had to leave.


you are great at finding sunshine stories. keep
it up. you have no alternative.
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
Dec 18, 2008 12:00 AM
387
I have read Arundhati Roy's article '9 is not 11' as well as some rather excited reactions to it. From my perspective her analysis of the Mumbai terror attack and specifically sub-continental historical causes seems measured, informative and wise.
David
British Columbia
Canada
David Finn
Nanoose Bay, Canada
Dec 18, 2008 12:00 AM
388
David Finn, you would likely be singing a different tune if you or your family were affected by a terrorist strike in British Columbia. The last thing you would want to hear is a lecture by Arundhati Roy( or her like) about underlying causes behind a massacre. There was no underlying cause in the Mumbai terror attack, except for the desire of the Islamic terrorists to kill as many people as possible, damage Mumbai, cause a blow to India, and then die themselves. Gujarat and Ayodhya are just excuses; they would have found other ready-made excuses, like Kashmir, Pakistan's loss to India in 4 wars, the history of Moslems ruling large parts of India, or India simply being a big, accomplished, dynamic non-Moslem country.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Dec 18, 2008 12:00 AM
389
Banito/Lalit,

>> in denmark a member of parliament formed an organisation of moderate muslims....

You have told this story six times already! I am proud of liberal Muslim Danes such as Nasser Khader, but an empty-headed bigot like you would always go supporting a VHP-ite in America, such as Sonal Shah. I must admit however that I like her latest statement.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 18, 2008 12:00 AM
390
I am sure the new anti-terror law brought out by the government of her highness, Madam, will be deemed secular by Outlook and Mr. Vinod Mehta. The debate about the security of our country has been so debased by the secularists that anything that they say has to be accepted and anything that people opposed to them has to be rejected.
Ankan Kumar
Columbus, USA
Dec 18, 2008 12:00 AM
391
faruki

you can never write a comment with out insulting
your opponents.

empty headed bigot is perhaps the mildest.

i have pointed out to you that most muslims are unable to reason. if they could reason and think, they would not always be in opposition to the rest of humanity.

a pew poll has stated that 45 percent of europeans have a bad opinion of muslims.the number is perhaps greater in usa.

these people are not empty headed bigots, and
their animosity towards islam and muslims is
a result of the news comeing out in the media.

monday to sunday ,the news about muslims and the muslim world is starkly negative. people who are influenced by this are useing their mental faculties, and disregarding your passionate defences for muslims.

you are the bigot who can get so aroused by sonal shah, selected by mr obama, after a thorough check up. he has not found one muslim
to be useful enough to be in his team.

i am not against christians-except the loony ones, or jews,parsees, whatever. the reason being that these people -except for a few- their societies are sensible and civilised.

can one say the same for pakistan, bangladesh,
afghanistan etc.they are your fellow muslims,

your community in india is pretty close to these.

ghanni kharab jat che.

when i look at news comeing from pakistan, denying,lieing about their role, i think the worst is that they seem to be so childish, and such irrational people.following islam has not done a thing for them

read pakistan link, and eminent pakistanis write such incredible nonsense. the people lower down are probably much worse.

that is the general view of most americans, westerners. that is a fact- you can deny this. you can label them as you will. reading your bitter attacks in this forum,,it does not seem that you are getting far.

by the way nasser kahder has rejected islam, and is more anti islam then most danes.
and he has little to do with your kind of muslims.
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
Dec 18, 2008 12:00 AM
392
>> We've forfeited the rights to our own tragedies because our media claimed this was India's 9/11.

Kinda like we have forfeited the right to sex because we have prostitution and pornography.

>> But November isn't September, 2008 isn't 2001, Pakistan isn't Afghanistan and India isn't America.

Yeah, but the terrorist is still the terrorist, the victims are still dead.

>> So perhaps we should reclaim our tragedy and pick through the debris with our own brains and our own broken hearts so that we can arrive at our own conclusions.

She means we have arrived at our conclusion but they are not HER conclusion, so we should try harder so we can come to the RIGHT conclusions.

>> It's odd how in the last week of November thousands of people in Kashmir supervised by thousands of Indian troops
lined up to cast their vote, while the richest quarters of India's richest city ended up looking like war-torn Kupwara—one of Kashmir's most ravaged districts.

Obviously if there was no security precautions, Kashmiris would have been allowed to vote freely by the terrorists.

>>
>> They were mowed down in a busy railway station and a public hospital. The terrorists did not distinguish between poor and rich. They killed both with equal cold-bloodedness. The Indian media, however, was transfixed by the rising tide of horror that breached the glittering barricades of India Shining

If the terrorists had mowed down a people in the Taj and then barricaded themselves at VT, then according to Ms. Roy, the media would still be obsessing over the Taj. If she had taken a break from her relentless class warfare, it would not be difficult to see the media for what it is, a creature of live events.
vijay
Chennai, India
Dec 18, 2008 12:00 AM
393
L: 327 thousands, not 327 millions of mosl oppo to terrr.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Dec 18, 2008 12:00 AM
394
>> Side A believes islamic terrorism is a threat to India. Side B believes "though nothing can ever excuse or justify terrorism, it exists in a particular time, place and political context"

Since context is so important, we obviously have to discuss Babu Bajrangi of 2002 whenever Hafeez Saeed of 2008 plans and executes a massacre.

>> Of course, Muslims are not the only people in the gun sights of the Hindu Right. Dalits have been consistently targeted. Recently in Kandhamal in Orissa, Christians were the target of two-and-a-half months of violence which left more than 40 dead.

Why have Dalits or Christians not mowed down crowds in Bombay? Could it be that factors other than Babu Bajrangi are at play here? Like for example a malevolent neighbour intent on making sure no grudge goes unsetteled for want of a AK 47?
vijay
Chennai, India
Dec 18, 2008 12:00 AM
395
>> In much the same way as it did after the 2001 Parliament attack, the 2002 burning of the Sabarmati Express and the 2006 bombing of the Samjhauta Express, the Government of India announced that it has 'incontrovertible' evidence that the Lashkar-e-Toiba backed by Pakistan's ISI was behind the Mumbai strikes. The Lashkar has denied involvement, but remains the prime accused. According to the police and intelligence agencies, the Lashkar operates in India through an organisation called the 'Indian Mujahideen'. Two Indian nationals—Sheikh Mukhtar Ahmed, a Special Police Officer working for the Jammu and Kashmir Police, and Tausif Rehman, a resident of Calcutta in West Bengal—have been arrested in connection with the Mumbai attacks.

This passage more than any other shows the bankruptcy of Ms. Roy's column, her penchant for discounting facts not in conformance with her ideology. The link to LET indeed looks incontrovertible, and Sheikh Ahmed was an undercover agent of the Indian Government arrested by WB police because of their incompetence. Certainly, the Indian government is more competent at blaming LeT than Ms. Roy at blaming Indian nationals.

>> Having wired up these Frankenstein's monsters and released them into the world, the US expected it could rein them in like pet mastiffs whenever it wanted to.

Yes, it was all America's doing. Pakistan was distraught at the creation of a shadow army that they have gleefully used in Kashmir ever since.

>> If at this point India decides to go to war, perhaps the descent of the whole region into chaos will be complete.

At no point has the Indian government said it was going to war. Who is raising the bogey here?
vijay
Chennai, India
Dec 18, 2008 12:00 AM
396

>> Over three days and three nights, we watched in disbelief as a small group of very young men armed with guns and gadgets exposed the powerlessness of the police, the elite National Security Guard and the marine commandos of this supposedly mighty, nuclear-powered nation. While they did this, they indiscriminately massacred unarmed people, in railway stations, hospitals and luxury hotels, unmindful of their class, caste, religion or nationality.

They were not unmindful. WSJ carried an article that clearly mentions eye witnesses who claimed the gunmen spared Turkish guests at the Taj after they claimed they were Muslims. Again, inconvenient facts are ignored. I am no muslim baiter, but I agree with Ms. Roy that we should see things as it is. I just wish she took her own advice.
vijay
Chennai, India
Dec 18, 2008 12:00 AM
397
>> The boy-terrorists' nonchalant willingness to kill—and be killed—mesmerised their international audience. They delivered something different from the usual diet of suicide bombings and missile attacks that people have grown inured to on the news. Here was something new. Die Hard 25. The gruesome performance went on and on. TV ratings soared. Ask any television magnate or corporate advertiser who measures broadcast time in seconds, not minutes, what that's worth.

Yes, it is all the fault of the TV! Just ban the damned box and everything will be fine.

>> If the men were indeed members of the Lashkar-e-Toiba, why didn't it matter to them that a large number of their victims were Muslim, or that their action was likely to result in a severe backlash against the Muslim community in India whose rights they claim to be fighting for?

Because they are stupid.

>> Through the endless hours of analysis and the endless op-ed essays, in India at least there has been very little mention of the elephants in the room: Kashmir, Gujarat and the demolition of the Babri Masjid.

She forgot Partition and Pakistan. If Kashmir and Gujarat are elephants then Pakistan is T-Rex. Without its enabling capacity, none of this would have happened. Its role is the equivalent of the INdian government giving Babu Bajrangi an endless supply of AK-47s and claiming that he is merely doing "social work". Then after he mowes down a bunch of Muslims, Ms. Roy will exhort Muslims to look at all the bomb blasts and Taj carnages as the reason why it happened.
vijay
Chennai, India
Dec 18, 2008 12:00 AM
398
>> The Supreme Court upheld the death sentence of another of the accused, Mohammad Afzal. In its judgement, the court acknowledged that there was no proof that Mohammad Afzal belonged to any terrorist group, but went on to say, quite shockingly, "The collective conscience of the society will only be satisfied if capital punishment is awarded to the offender. " Even today we don't really know who the terrorists that attacked Indian Parliament were and who they worked for.

This is a sinister use of words to imply something that is baseless. The court said that there was no proof of Afzal belonging to a terrorist group. It did not say there is no proof of him carrying out the attack. The implication that the INdian government strung up someone without proof is intentionally malicious and incorrect.
vijay
Chennai, India
Dec 18, 2008 12:00 AM
399
>> What we're experiencing now is blowback, the cumulative result of decades of quick fixes and dirty deeds. The carpet's squelching under our feet.

Translation: If you got shot up in Mumbai, it is your fault.
vijay
Chennai, India
Dec 18, 2008 12:00 AM
400
>My concept is clear: violence should be met with violence.

*** I had an inkling that was YOUR vision of democratic values. But thanks for making it very clear.
Chandan K Mahanta
St. Louis, United States
Dec 18, 2008 12:00 AM
401
>> The only way to contain (it would be naive to say end) terrorism is to look at the monster in the mirror. We're standing at a fork in the road. One sign says 'Justice', the other 'Civil War'. There's no third sign and there's no going back. Choose.

I did not see a single report of hate crime against any Muslim in India post Bombay. If we are to "look at the monster in the mirror", we will see Pakistan. How long will the author pretend that she is seeing the sins of her fathers instead?
vijay
Chennai, India
Dec 18, 2008 12:00 AM
402
>>"They may be eulogized as military heroes and conquerors, but not as paragons of Islam".

So, it would be appropriate to rename the so- called purely islamic-paragon state of pakisthan into the purely violent-conquest hero-worshipping evil state of papi-sthan. Besides, it seems, one needs a microscpe to find any paragons of islam being eulogized by the islamic evilizn of over 1400! Thanks for the clarification.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Dec 18, 2008 12:00 AM
403
>>"There is no such thing as a soul. When you die, it's over. What is pathetic is you using a tragedy and someone's grief to excuse Hindu terrorism. It is cheap and degrading to human life"

Strange statement from a soul-less being, talking of pathetic, tragedy, grief, life-degradation etc! If there is nothing left after death, the body elements settling on the world of matter, what is there additionally present in life, and where does it go?
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Dec 18, 2008 12:00 AM
404
Ever heard of atoms, molecules? Matter is all there is.
root2squared
Stamford, United States
Dec 18, 2008 12:00 AM
405
>>"Who benefits from the Mumbai slaughter?"

the congress and its mosl-votebank allies would have benefitted, if all ten terrorists had been killed, as expected, perhaps; whole thing could then have been blamed on hindutva-terrorism, being framed up by the ITS, to make bjp lose votes. But, one terrorist survived to spell the truth, and the ITS chief died before he could get to him, to make him say that it was all hindu conspiracy only. BJP is happy, Antulay unhappy. The impartial divine behind all religions has delivered real justice as per truth.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Dec 18, 2008 12:00 AM
406
"The impartial divine behind all religions has delivered real justice as per truth."

I guess this impartial divine was sleeping when the terrorists were killing innocent people.
root2squared
Stamford, United States
Dec 18, 2008 12:00 AM
407
">>"Who benefits from the Mumbai slaughter?"

This is yet another example to show succulars have no logical consistency.

The blasts are supposed to benefit BJP. In the same breath, we have stories about the "resounding" rejection of the terror politics of the BJP-since Congress won the recent state elections 3-2. Winning elections is all about good governance.

If that is the case, why bother with the question of "who benefits"?
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Dec 18, 2008 12:00 AM
408
>>"I guess this impartial divine was sleeping when the terrorists were killing innocent people".

Perh the innocent people killed had no 'souls', as claimed by you; hence, divine ignored their death, as He will, your own also, when it happens.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Dec 18, 2008 12:00 AM
409
Learned/Thiagan,

>> Civilised methods will be useless when you deal with the barbarians and suicide bombers.

If you think being a suicide bomber is the correct answer for them, go ahead! Bal Thackerey is beckoning you.

>> There is no verse in the Book that says jihad is an effort towards self improvement.

The word jihad itself means "striving". Islamic teaching says, "In its primary sense it is an inner thing, within self, to rid it from debased actions or inclinations, and exercise constancy and perseverance in achieving a higher moral standard." Holy war is a kind of jihad, but it is not the primary meaning of the word.

>> A meaningless distinction and potently dangerous for non muslims.

Military men are dangerous for those who are being conquered. Calling them paragons of Islam, besides being wrong, does not add or subtract from their dangerousness. Making empty points may suit hate propagandists like you.

>> It is claimed that there are one billion muslims and only.327 millions are aginst terrorism.

Idiot, there are 327,000 entries in Google on the subject of Muslims being against terrorism, not Muslims against teerrorism. You are truly retarded!

>> Islamic terror is the only serious issue; naxal menace is the second.

Hate spreaders like you are also a major issue.

>> non muslim majorities in all the countries have almost come to the uniform conclusion that muslims are an impossible minority.

The favorite lie of hate pracharaks like you and Lalit.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 18, 2008 12:00 AM
410
I think Bush deserved more than a shoe being hurled at him. This bast#rd of the lowest pedigree had lakhs killed in Iraq(in some instances the whole families wiped out in indiscriminate American bombing of the Iraqi towns. The government in Iraq is a puppet government which is taking orders from the Washington. Kudos to the journalist who threw the shoe and called Bush a dog. I think Bush is a pig or even worse than that. This criminal should be tried in the Hague for going to war against Iraq on a false pretext. He is a mutt of the street variety.
Vivek Chatterjee
Calcutta, India
Dec 18, 2008 12:00 AM
411
>>>>"Who benefits from the Mumbai slaughter?"
>> This is yet another example to show succulars have no logical consistency.

Advani and Rajnath were flying high with their indignant wrath and criticism in the aftermath of the attack. They quietened down when they saw the results of the election. But we still do not know who it will benefit in the long run.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 18, 2008 12:00 AM
412
>>"Ever heard of atoms, molecules? Matter is all there is".

What exists primarily is vacuum = absolute. hydrogen atoms, naaraah, released from this vac-space = viSwam vishNuh = naaraayaNa, as basic matter, aparaa prakriti. Simultaneusly, paraa Sakti, spiritual power, antimatter is also released, which enforces formation of bigger atoms, stars, planets to HER gravity field, property of space, vishNu-maayaa, gauree gagana-dhaariNee. Part of spirit also provides jeeva-souls to coordinate with matter bodies over short periods to form lives. When life dies, matter merges back with matter, soul into spirit, if free of attachments; otherwise seeks and finds rebirths, until full freedom, salvation.

poorNam adah poorNam idam porNaat poorNam udacyate, poorNasya poorNam aadaaya, poorNam eva avaSishyate. poorNa = infinity, also poorNa = zero, in sanskrit. Lives start as fish, end as angels to merge back with divine Abslute.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Dec 18, 2008 12:00 AM
413
"Perh the innocent people killed had no 'souls', as claimed by you; hence, divine ignored their death, as He will, your own also, when it happens. "

Then why did he deliver justice as you claim? You need to take a lesson in logic.
root2squared
Stamford, United States
Dec 18, 2008 12:00 AM
414
"
poorNam adah poorNam idam porNaat poorNam udacyate, poorNasya poorNam aadaaya, poorNam eva avaSishyate. poorNa = infinity, also poorNa = zero, in sanskrit. Lives start as fish, end as angels to merge back with divine Abslute. "

What quackery. Do you have any evidence for it?
Don't make stuff up. Go and read some science and how it works.
root2squared
Stamford, United States
Dec 18, 2008 12:00 AM
415
Vivek

Agreed. Bush is a war criminal. Unfortunately, he will get away without any punishment.
root2squared
Stamford, United States
Dec 18, 2008 12:00 AM
416
Questions for Ms. Roy: Has India treated muslims and exploited muslim lands worse than the US? Has India sent its armies to capture and control the resources of muslim lands? Have muslims invaded and enslaved the US or India? Did muslims create a theocratic homeland out of parts of the United States and ethnically cleanse such parts? Are muslims in parts of the US actively trying to secede, create a theocratic state, and ethnically cleanse such areas? Are theocratic, ethnically cleansed states formed out of parts of the US now carrying out terrorism in support of other such theocratic movements? How does Ms. Roy reconcile her supposedly secular values with support for such theocratic movements? Will an Independent Kashmir be a secular democracy?!! Is this what these people are fighting for? Has Pakistan been supporting the creation of a secular democracy in Kashmir?

If the US has the right to be angry for terrorists that killed innocents why doesn't India have the same right?

India has many flaws but atleast it tries to achieve a higher ideal. The right wing of India is as disgusting as the Muslim league and PPP of Pakistan. That is, the worst of India is comparable to the best of Pakistan. Even if India only mourns its rich, the average rich innocent Indian victim of a terrorist attack certainly deserves the attention that has been paid this one time.
Ashish K
Cambridge, USA
Dec 18, 2008 12:00 AM
417
Mr. Mehta’s Hatchet woman

Once again the bleeding heart liberals and conspiracy theorists like by Ms. Arundhathi Roy will wait for the Republic’s anger to subside before raising suspicion on the investigations and try to get the boy-TERRIORIST Abdul Kasab out of the gallows.

Once again they will tell us about the mitigating circumstances - poverty, backwardness, persecution and exploitation by the elite and the state.

They will equate the law and order problems in India with International Terrorism, wherein citizens of Pakistan come into our country as mercenaries, to kill and destroy.

And they call themselves Indians.

Shame on Them!!!

Gopi K. Nambiar
Gopi K. Nambiar
Bangalore, India
Dec 18, 2008 12:00 AM
418
Banito/Lalit,

>> you can never write a comment with out insulting your opponents.

But do you know how much hatred there is in your posts, and the posts of Seshadri, Rose/Bodepudi and Learned/Thiagan?
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 18, 2008 12:00 AM
419
Learned/Thiagan,

>> This happened way back in 1992. Dr Abdul Raza...

You have to go far and wide to find dirt for your usual daily quota of hate prachar! Similar stories abound in the deliberations of VHP and Bajrangdal, but you of course will not pay any attention to them. You are just despicable.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 18, 2008 12:00 AM
420
>>>> This happened way back in 1992. Dr Abdul Raza...

>> You have to go far and wide to find dirt for your usual daily quota of hate prachar

Interesting. Wasn't Babri demolition also in 92?
Al Bundy
San Francisco, United States
Dec 18, 2008 12:00 AM
421
I guess you didn't get the memo.

Stalin is DEAD.
root2squared
Stamford, United States
Dec 18, 2008 12:00 AM
422
>Probably you suggest we should do a sathygraha before the >terrorists. Great idea; but I am not ready for any suicide.

Thus Spake the Learned One.

*** The only problem here is that the Rule of Law - the foundation of a democratic society -could not be substituted by the rule of those who shoots first and asks questions later, like the Indian ARMY empowered by AFSPA .

Chandan K Mahanta
St. Louis, United States
Dec 18, 2008 12:00 AM
423
Just compare Arnaditi and Antuley with this loyal muslim :

"Hang Ajmal Without Trial, Says Muslim Forum


PANAJI, DECEMBER 17 (PTI)

All India Milli Council on Wednesday supported a demand of Shiv Sena chief Bal Thackeray to hang without trial, Mohammad Ajmal Amir, the sole terrorist arrested in the Mumbai terror attacks, said a spokesman.

The AIMC, which is a representative platform of Muslims living in India, claimed that Thackeray was spot-on in his editorial in Wednesday's edition of the Saamna, a mouthpiece of the Shiv Sena, which seeks a hanging for Ajmal without trial.

Iqbal Mohideen, president of the All India Mili Council (Goa), told reporters that Ajmal's chilling crime should be judged through the Shariah (Islamic law).

"The AIMC supports Bal Thackeray's demand. Even the Shariah says an eye for an eye, a limb for a limb and life for life," Mohideen said.

Condemning the Goa police for storming a madrassa in Vasco on Tuesday and the handling of the 60-odd minor female students studying there, Mohideen accused the police of terrorising the minority community.

"Show me one instance where Muslim women have participated in a terror act? And here the police were accusing the management of the all-girl madrassa of breeding terrorists," he charged.

"We are Indians first and Muslims next. Why are we forced to make a public display of our patriotism time and again?" he asked.

"The AIMC has already made it public that none of these terrorists should be buried in our burial grounds, because they have slaughtered innocents," Mohideen said.
Khushi Ram
ambala cantt, India
Dec 18, 2008 12:00 AM
424
Pls. join me in congratulating M. Andhi Roy - her brother who was separated from her in childhood has been found - the mofo AR Antulay - yeah the same b@stard who had to resign from maharashtra for corruption charges
escoss
delhi, India
Dec 18, 2008 12:00 AM
425
Chandan Mahanta

“I don't like the choice of your language, as in 'allowed to go', implying they are somehow OWNED, slave-like, either by India or by Pakistan.”

Slave-like is your choice of word. But yes, a state does belong to a nation, till it receives aid from that nation. In Kashmir’s case, it gets more aid than any other state, with a ‘special status’ thrown in.

“Right now it is an industry, albeit something that does not produce anything, but surely helps destroy.”

Only nut cases can ask army to ‘produce’ something, or call it an ‘industry’. Don’t you need people to GUARD what you produce? Why don’t you ask the security guards of your housing society to weave baskets in the night, than roam around aimlessly ‘guarding’ you?

“India's need to or claim of having to 'please' the Muslims is a myth and a fabrication of Hindu fantasies.”

We gave in to their demands of partition, didn’t we? Even Gandhi couldn’t stop it for all his gun-to-his-own-head kind of non-violence. Partition was not a fabrication of Hindu fantasies, it was their worst nightmare.

“Have you ever been to Muslim majority areas of the country? I lived in one once…”
Ever wondered why a community that ruled India for 5 centuries is living in such conditions? Only lazy ones whine for their plight. Dalits have been worse, but they have done better.

“But the affluent Hindu Gujarati s having to please or appease them would be an insult to the intelligence of even an imbecile.”

That’s the truth, yes. A hindu gujarati does not have to abide by Indian laws, not the hindu laws. His teerth yatras are not subsidized. Yes, muslims have been appeased, though it has done nothing for them because it was just tokenism.
Kiran Bagachi
mumbai, India
Dec 18, 2008 12:00 AM
426
“The only problem here is that the Rule of Law - the foundation of a democratic society -could not be substituted by the rule of those who shoots first and asks questions later, like the Indian ARMY empowered by AFSPA.”

You answered your own question. Army is empowered by AFSPA, and that’s the rule of the Indian law. Under this rule, they are ALLOWED to shoot first anybody who tries to infiltrate in India, and ask question later. If enemy is killed in the process, too bad for them.
Kiran Bagachi
mumbai, India
Dec 18, 2008 12:00 AM
427
Yo Anwar - Good news for you. Your long lost dad Antulay was found in Delhi.
escoss
delhi, India
Dec 18, 2008 12:00 AM
428
edit:
A hindu gujarati HAS to abide by Indian laws, not the hindu laws.
Kiran Bagachi
mumbai, India
Dec 18, 2008 12:00 AM
429
MUSLIMS ARE KILLING MUSLIMS IN PAKISTAN, AFGHANISTAN IRAQ etc for USA because they are getting paid by USA in Dollars. "The name of the game is called MONEY". ARUNDHATI is writing all this shit for MONEY. Antulay is talking shit because some rule in the anti-terror law may have infringed on his MONEY making capability. PAKI ARMY is killing TALIBAN it created and nurtured for MONEY. Let USA offer Rs ONE LAKH pay per month to any INDIAN MUSLIM willing to fight against TALIBAN in Afghanistan and if India allows the recruitment, there will be a line of INDIAN MUSLIMS in front of US counselate so huge that it will stretch from Delhi to AGRA. MONEY is the most secular thing in the world. All the religions, all the priests, all the journalist and all ARUNDATHI ROYs, TISTA SETELVAD, SHAHI IMAMs, SHANKARACHARYAS, POPE/ BISHOPs etc etc will tie themselves in knots to get to the elusive MONEY.
Akil
Bangalore, India
Dec 18, 2008 12:00 AM
430
Learned

You are an idiot. Your monumental stupidity is beyond belief. You talk like a child.

Stalin is DEAD. Mohammed is DEAD i.e if he ever existed.
root2squared
Stamford, United States
Dec 18, 2008 12:00 AM
431
Root2Squared,

>> Learned, You are an idiot. Your monumental stupidity is beyond belief. You talk like a child.

Fully agree with you. He does not know what he is talking about.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 18, 2008 12:00 AM
432
Anwar

Yes, he seems to be a bigot who wants to just hate rather than find solutions.
root2squared
Stamford, United States
Dec 18, 2008 12:00 AM
433
Learned/Thiagan,

>> "Islam in Acrion" is mega serial.

Your sick obsession is a mega serial. See a doctor.

>> Sabeel Ahamed, the Glasgow bomber does not agree.

He sounds as delusional as yourself.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 18, 2008 12:00 AM
434
Learned/Thiagan,

>> Now the terrorists openly cite their holy text and claim that they have a religious duty to kill the kafirs — read Hindus. Yet, no Islamic school including the Deoband seminary, challenges them.

While those terrorists are as evil and psychotic as yourself, or as any of the Abhinav Bharatis, how come you missed all those pronouncements against terrorism from the Deoband seminary? Are you just a plain liar, or are you out of touch with the news? You showed your ignorance when you claimed that Turkey had sided with the Nazis in WWII, and that when Israel declared its indepedence, terrorism stopped!!! Those were whoppers typical of high school drop outs. For an economist, you sure are ignorant and imbalanced. Did you have to take your retirement because of a head injury or Alzheimer's?
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 18, 2008 12:00 AM
435
>>"Go and read some science"

I happen to be a prof who has taught more sc and tech than you will ever learn at stanford. But, dont bother, spiritual knowledge is not to be given to egoistic materialists. Nor any logic with someone who denies souls, but talks of justice.

We had a problem in IITM decades ago with a chap who claimed a phD from stanford and applied for senior faculty position; was found to have only worked as mechanic in some stanford motor shed, before interview for appointment, was sent off. Hope you are not one such. Sorry for Stanford, anyway. Had some high-competance friends there, decades ago.

True wisdom can be received only by minds with some humility and willingness to learn.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Dec 18, 2008 12:00 AM
436
Arundhati's views are on expected lines of pseudos like she is. Such persons live off society's tragedies and gain media attention which they crave by such useless intellectual masturbation. Outlook is expected to provide a platform to such elements, as it eyes circulation rather than professionalism.
Shubhang Pandya
Ahmedabad, India
Dec 18, 2008 12:00 AM
437
You are not qualified to teach science as you do not even understand it. Science is based on evidence and naturalism, not make up as you go along spiritual mumbo-jumbo.

root2squared
Stamford, United States
Dec 18, 2008 12:00 AM
438
Also, learn to read. Stamford is different from Stanford.
root2squared
Stamford, United States
Dec 18, 2008 12:00 AM
439
Seshadri, Stamford is a city in Connecticut, while Stanford is an Ivy League University.
gajanan
Sydney, Australia
Dec 18, 2008 12:00 AM
440
Pak’s Geo TV draws flak for airing report on Ajmal
Geo TV , Jeeyo Jeeyo Jeeyo
gajanan
Sydney, Australia
Dec 18, 2008 12:00 AM
441


They killed the Daughter ,Son in Law and grand childern of their Prophet immediately after his death.The whole of the surviving family of Prophet (PBUH)was tortured and was mercilessly killed by the followers of Islam .Even a drop of water and a morsel of food was denied and unfortunate ones were perished in the scorching sandunes encircled by the Muslims.

So what is new if they have killed a small Kafir kid ?

"Terror's youngest victim :December 18, 2008

Text: Savera R Someshwar | Video and photographs: Hitesh Harisinghani
It is a long walk from the main gate, through the Sir Jamshetjee Jejeebhoy Hospital's labyrinthine innards and up a slope, before you reach Ward No 41, on the first floor of the building dedicated to the care of sick children.

At the far end of the ward, two beds away from the head nurse's station, four-month-old Sheetal Yadav looks around curiously. Her beautiful large eyes focus on you -- a new curiosity within the bland, flaking walls of the multi-bed hall that serves as the children's ward.

You pick her up and she gives you a bright, pleased smile. But her clothes are wet; her skin wrinkled from the damp. She is not wearing any underwear.

"Kya karoon (What can I do)?" says her 25-year-old mother Sunita helplessly. "I only have a few clothes for her, and she's wet them all."

Sheetal is much too young to understand the horror that has befallen her family. But her mother is reeling under the impact of the devastation that targeted them on November 26.

When the terrorists launched their murderous spree at Mumbai's Chhattrapati Shivaji Terminus on November 26, Sunita's family was one of the many destroyed in the brutal attack.

Upendra Yadav, a data entry operator for a company in Vapi (located at the southern tip of Gujarat; it touches the state's border with Maharashtra), was taking his wife and daughter back home to Basawan in Uttar Pradesh. They were accompanied by Sunita's brother, Upendra's cousin sister and her five-year-old son.

In a voice so soft you can barely hear it, Sunita says her husband is dead; she believes he died almost instantly in that murderous hail. The shock of her unexpected loss is evident -- she moves like a zombie, eyes vacant, voice without emotion, as she mechanically goes through the motions necessary for the mother of a four-month-old baby. She does not eat enough to survive, says her father sadly.

"I picked up my baby and ran," Sunita says tonelessly. She, too, was hurt. Sunita had been hit by bullet in her chest and shrapnel struck other parts of her body.

As she struggled to find her way out of the panic-ridden station, her blood drenched her child. Then, she could no longer run. The loss of blood had made her giddy and she fainted, holding tightly to her precious child."
Khushi Ram
ambala cantt, India
Dec 18, 2008 12:00 AM
442
Seshadri,

>> I happen to be a prof who has taught more sc and tech than you will ever learn ...

It is a pity that you could not broaden your horizons, and have remained as prejudiced, intolerant and bigoted as a high school drop out.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 18, 2008 12:00 AM
443
Learned/Thiagan,

>> Bush is better than Stalin and Mohammed.

Comparing Bush with Stalin or Mohammed is idiotic and ignorant. Bush should be compared with contemporary democrtic leaders such as his father or Clinton or Sarkozy or Manmohan Singh or Nelson Mandela. He started a war which was illegal, it was called illegal by the Secretary General of the UN, he lied to the American people about the WMD's, his blunders have made Al Qaeda and Taliban stronger in Afghanistan, he was criminally negligent in delaying help to Katrina victims, his own people have rated him ( at 27%) lower than any President in recent history, and he fully deserved those two shoes thrown at him. You probably love him because he kills Muslims! You and he fully deserve each other.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 18, 2008 12:00 AM
444
please dont mix the mumbai terror attacks with the other stuff, for gods sake and dont confuse the people with your complicated writing
ATUL CHAUDHARI
nagpur, India
Dec 18, 2008 12:00 AM
445
Arundhati Roy,

For your information, truth needs no colours.

Only a snake bitten person can feel the degree of the ache of the poison.
How can one be able to understand the severity of the pain, if that person never experiences a BITE!

Now look,-


http://www.newsweek.com/id/174277

dip
Dhaka, Bangladesh
Dec 18, 2008 12:00 AM
446
Fatwas are honoured only by followers of "ALLAHS ISLAM" and not "MULLAHS ISLAM". Unfortunately 99% of Muslims follow "Mullahs Islam" and Qur'an has a few (very few) verses which can be misused by the followers of "MULLAHS ISLAM" to justify their act of violence against innocent people- in fact against anyone. some are given below
Surah 8/12 – Al-Anfal- I will instil terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers. Smite you above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them.
Surah 9/1 to 5-At- Tawhah- Declaration of immunity to Unbelievers and then slaying them
Surah 9/29-At- Tawhah- Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the last day- Until they pay Jizyah.
Surah 9/30-At- Tawhah- Christians call Christ son of God.- Allahs curse be on them.
Surah 47/4- Muhammad- When you meet the Unbelievers smite them at there neck.
Akil
Bangalore, India
Dec 18, 2008 12:00 AM
447
A R Antuley has put his foot in his mouth by saying :

1.Karkare was killed by terrorism plus some thing .When asked what was THAT something he exPlained that Karkare was investigating Hindu terrorism and was killed by Muslim terrorists is troubling him .So:

i Antuley like other Muslims is doubtfull of Govt's Version of Karkare's death .He raised his doubts when speaking on behalf of the Govt during discussions for the Anti Terror Bill.So should we take this the vesion of Congress Govt ?

Though Congress and not the Govt has distanced from Antuley;s remarks.

11). What is other some thing ? Could be Bajrangdal and LET have joined hands ? We can check whther bullet fired by paki terrorist's AK-47 or Karkare was killedby some other bullet .

iii). There is an eyewitness body gaurd of Karkre who was in the vehicle and was himself injured by the terorists.

Is the bodygaurd hiding the role of the 'Hindu terror ie something ?

2.Another querry raised by the Minister Antuley is -Why Karkare and other officers chose to go to Camma Hospital ? Why did not they go to Taj or Oberoi where the actual action was taking place .Now this is the crux of the matter .So ;

i .Had they not gone to Camma Hospital the officers would not have been killed ? The Minister Antuley said this is the disturbing aspect in Antuley's words as I heard on TV that" Karkare was not a fool to commit such a mistake being an intelligent officer" ? Mind it Karkare's not going to Taj is the main problem .

So could it be that Mysterious ++ Some Thing took the Officers directly in the trap of Ajamal and his Partner ? Or could be that the Some Thing + + did the job and delivered the bodies to the Pak terrorists with request that they should take over onwards.

Nothing can be ruled as the Officers did not go to Taj .

SO WHY THE OFFICERS DID NOT GO TO TAJ OR OBEROI WHERE THE MAIN ACTION WAS TAKING PLACE ?

ii) Minister implies that though appx. 64 persons died and hundereds of commuters were killed by the LeT killers at VT as flies still this was not the main action like Taj and Oberoi .

Hence 'some thing plus' involvement is feared.

I am fully with Antuley sahib on this issue why the officers went towards Camma Hospital ?? I AM BAFFELED

THIS RAISES SERIOUS DOUBTS IN MY MIND TOO as to WHY THEY CHOSE the Hospital ? Who will clear the doubts ? Oh God who will tell me why ? Why Karkare did not go to hotels ??

'Antulay self-goal: sees a Malegaon mystery in Karkare Mumbai murder' cntd

a k ghai
mumbai, India
Dec 18, 2008 12:00 AM
448
faruki

you will have a case against us when usa papers,those in europe, and in india start writeing positive articles about islam and muslims.

you are pitted against many independent columnists , thinkers across the world.

you and many muslims,are not able to see the wood for the trees,

islam will not be considered a decent religion, and muslims the same unless there is evidence on
the ground.your not so smart retorts just get you disliked. besides being irrational we consider you unfit for decent societiey.

pakistans behaviour shows how decietful,childish
they are. these and bd muslims are about 70 percent of south asian muslims. not fit to be in the company of man or beast.
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
Dec 18, 2008 12:00 AM
449
"Antulay self-goal: sees a Malegaon mystery in Karkare Mumbai murder :

Manoj C G & Seema Chishti
NEW DELHI: Union Minority Affairs Minister A R Antulay today kicked up a political storm when he raised doubts over the circumstances around the killing of Maharashtra Anti-Terrorism Squad chief Hemant Karkare and suggested a link with the Malegaon blasts that the officer and his team were investigating.

Calling for a CBI probe into his death, Antulay said “there is more than what meets the eye” as Karkare was investigating cases in which “there are non-Muslims also” and “somebody wanted Karkare killed”. That “somebody”, Antulay claimed, sent the officer to the place where he was killed.

Congress spokesperson Abhishek Singhvi said these should be treated as Antulay’s “personal views” and the party did not agree with him.

Karkare was attacked by leaders of the BJP for his probe into the blast that killed six Muslims in Malegaon on September 29 — 11 suspected Hindu extremists are in jail in the case. Leader of the Opposition L K Advani had even called for a change in the investigation team.

BJP attacked Antulay for his remarks and demanded an immediate clarification from the Prime Minister.

Speaking to The Indian Express, Antulay said: “Somebody who knew both the ends sent him (Karkare) in the wrong direction otherwise why should he have gone to Cama hospital? He should have gone to Taj, Oberoi or Nariman House. He went to such a place where there was nothing compared to what was happening in these three places. He went to the Cama hospital on the basis of a phone call. Who is that person who made the phone call? This should be probed.”

“Karkare found that there are non-Muslims involved in acts of terrorism... Any person going to the roots of Terror has always been the target... Superficially speaking, they (the terrorists) had no reason to kill Karkare. Whether he (Karkare) was a victim of terrorism or terrorism plus something, I do not know,” he said.

“I can’t say who killed him,” Antulay said. “I leave it you. But you remember what all was said against the poor man. He was an upright officer. I know a bandh call was given against him before he was killed.”

He said the CBI should be asked to find out “who was responsible for sending him (Karkare) in the wrong direction... somebody wanted him to be killed... why all three (Karkare, Additional Commissioner Ashok Kamte and encounter specialist Vijay Salaskar) went together is beyond my comprehension.” cntd
a k ghai
mumbai, India
Dec 18, 2008 12:00 AM
450
R:>>"Science is based on evidence and naturalism"

Thanks for the kind infrmation.


v.seshadri
chennai, india
Dec 18, 2008 12:00 AM
451
"He said the CBI should be asked to find out “who was responsible for sending him (Karkare) in the wrong direction... somebody wanted him to be killed... why all three (Karkare, Additional Commissioner Ashok Kamte and encounter specialist Vijay Salaskar) went together is beyond my comprehension.” "

NOW ISSUE BOILS DOWN TO :

1 WHO WANTED TO KILL KARKARE ?

2 WHO SENT HIM IN WRONG DIRECTION ?

Karkare would not have been killed at Taj or Oberpi assured by Antuley ? So now what we understand that :

1) That the three Police Officers should have been at Taj and the V Commando Major,Havaldar and one other commando who sacrificed their lives at othe rlocations should have been VT and Camma Hospital .

Thus none would have been have killed.When Manmohan's Cabinet Minister that too all knowledgeable Minority Minister say we must agree.

3. Why three officers chose to travel together ??

Please handover such sensitiv eoperation sto Antuley Sahib .Be wise .

Safety Saves !
a k ghai
mumbai, India
Dec 18, 2008 12:00 AM
452
Gajanan:>>"Seshadri, Stamford is a city in Connecticut, while Stanford is an Ivy League University".

Thanks for the clarification, Gajanan. I did notice the 'm', but took it as typing mistake!
Anyway, I had on business to comment on some new poster's strange views, saying 'soul' is fiction.
Should I ask him to enquire 'who you really are, body, mind or intellect, like ramana maharshi ?
It takes all sorts to make the world, anyway.

Good wishes to you, family, for merry christmas and happy new year.


v.seshadri
chennai, india
Dec 18, 2008 12:00 AM
453
root2 squared
'
muslims should get a stamp of approval from all the countries where they live

your and ours opinion is not enough, because
we all seem very prejudiced.
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
Dec 18, 2008 12:00 AM
454
>>poorNam adah poorNam idam porNaat poorNam udacyate, poorNasya poorNam aadaaya, poorNam eva avaSishyate. poorNa = infinity, also poorNa = zero, in sanskrit. Lives start as fish, end as angels to merge back with divine Abslute. "

>>>>>What quackery. Do you have any evidence for it?
Don't make stuff up.

Sheshadri is certainly not making up that shloka. that is a very well known invocation form Ishavasya upanishad., written 1000s of years ago.

Any one with even a passing interest in hindu scriptures wold have heard that shloka.
lookout bug me not
mumbai, India
Dec 18, 2008 12:00 AM
455
LBMN:>>"Any one with even a passing interest in hindu scriptures wold have heard that shloka".

Thank you for your kind interjection. Anyway, it was my mistake to put in spiritual info to someone uninterested in that. Gita prohibits it, specifically, in the last but one sloka! I deserved the rebuke I got.

Merry christmas and happy new year to you.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Dec 18, 2008 12:00 AM
456
It's sad to see our mainstream newsmagazines publishing such articles full of uncorroborated facts and figures. Can Outlook substantiate the following facs from the author that:
1. LTTE was trained by INDIAN ARMY.
2. Human Shields are used by Indian Security Forces during their counter terrorist operations in Jammu and Kashmir.
3. People of Kashmir, given their dreadful experience of last 20 years, have honed terrorism to an exquisite art.
4. Supreme court's judgement on Mohammad Afzal is questionable.
5. There are half a million soldiers in Kashmir Valley.

If you can not substantiate the above facts atleast you can ask the auther to do it and publish them also alongwith the article.
Sanjay
New Delhi, India
Dec 18, 2008 12:00 AM
457
dr s

i admit i am no genius- i have made some terrible mistakes in business, with the attitude
that problems will get solved. this is not
true.

however at least i am sorry for the mistakes i
have made. i have at times in the past talked to my doctor , and he was very good in listening to
my problems.

have been to see pschyciatrist at one time, but he gave me a clean chit.

i believe that some people in this forum need to see a doctor, and perhaps a pshycologist.

faruki is like many muslims suffering from paronia. he blows up the crimes committed by others, and gives islam and muslims a good report.malegagaon is now being bracketed with mumbai massacre. bizarre.

in this ofcource he ignores mainstream media, and seeks comfort in some tiny noncomformist
press . all muslims love arundhati roy. all hate tasleema nasreen.

the whole community seems to be on a suicidal
mission, and pakistans behaviour is symptomatic about this.

i feel faruki needs to see some one who is understanding. it will be of help to him.
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
Dec 18, 2008 12:00 AM
458
>>"He said the CBI should be asked to find out “who was responsible for sending him (, Karkare) in the wrong direction... somebody wanted him to be killed"

Yes, CBI enquiry is reqd, after Auntulay resigns, on whether he, as minister of mino affairs, was the force behind the central and mhrtra gvts together trying to build up a fictitious case of hindutva terrorism in the country, so that it could be blamed for the expected mumbai attack, when in occurred.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Dec 18, 2008 12:00 AM
459
"We've forfeited the rights to our own tragedies." AR

Instead of "rights" to tragedies, we should focus on those responsible for inflicting tragedies on us, for over 13 centuries.
Linguistic gymnastics can not disguise Arundhati's closed mind regarding Islamic terror and the unending land-grab of India.

AR: Please write about Jihad, politics and geo-politics of Islam-and its territorial aggrandizement and demographic and terrorist invasions of India
Rose
New York, United States
Dec 18, 2008 12:00 AM
460
A stunning blow to peace between India and Pakistan!! The cricket series has been cancelled.

I am disappointed. When the matches begun in 2003 and 2004, we were assured that cricket will bring peace between the two neighbours-since Pakis were just like us.

And the last four years have been an extraordinary era of peace. Terrorism reduced drastically. But now, the extremists on both sides have struck a blow to peace.

Tragic.
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Dec 18, 2008 12:00 AM
461
"He parroted Wednesday's remarks that Karkare was a brave and intelligent officer and he only wanted to know who had "misled" him and his colleagues to take a "wrong direction" towards Cama hospital on that fateful night where he was killed."

"Who sent Karkare in the wrong direction when the fire was somewhere else," he said referring to the terror attacks in Taj and Trident Hotels and the Nariman House "

I agree with Antulay must know who sent Karkare to Camma Hospital ? On the contrary he would have been totally safe if he had not left his Office.

So who wanted to kill Karkre and sent him into lap of Let Killers waiting at the Hospital ?

Who directed and who killed Karkare ? Let us examine :

1 Sadvi or Col Purohit ? No way .

2 Could be the State Cheif Mindster or Home Minister or Karkare's Seniors ? That means they were aware and wanted to bump off Kakare .

Again wrong as the whole of Mahrashtra Govt and Maharashtra Police Brass was praising Karkare for exposing the Hindu Terror.

So who could be who sent Karkare to Hospital ?

Now I totally reject these allegations of BJP against Antulay : ""Despite being a Union minister, Antulay is speaking in favour of Pakista n government," Kadam alleged "

Man he is trying to solve the riddles of Karkare's last journey which are equally puzzling for all of us.Let us not cast slur on Antulay sahib.

Who ? Who ??
a k ghai
mumbai, India
Dec 18, 2008 12:00 AM
462
">>"He said the CBI should be asked to find out “who was responsible for sending him (, Karkare) in the wrong direction... somebody wanted him to be killed"


Do we know for sure he that someone was not Antulay???

I am not insinuating anything. Since we must explore all possibilities, let us start with Antulay. And then we go down the list of whomever Antulay wants to put in his list.
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Dec 18, 2008 12:00 AM
463
BTW, Antulay's remark is a standard political trick. When you want to say something but do not want to say it, you use a proxy with perfect deniability.

Take the Delhi encounter. The Congress was all praise for the police. Mulayam and Amar Singh threw the spanner. Congress made a token condemnation. Congress and Mulayam are still allies.

Or the Osama look alike during the Bihar election. Paswan and Laloo were fine with it while Congress made a token protest. The Osama lookalike appeared even after the "protest". And Congress and Laloo are allies.

Antulay's remarks must be seen in this context. The PM, Chidambaram play to one gallery while Antulay is playing to another gallery. Whether this charade will work or not remains to be seen but it is pretty obvious.
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Dec 18, 2008 12:00 AM
464
"Do we know for sure he that someone was not Antulay???"

Ganeshan

You are hitting below the belt .Antulay was Cheif Minster of Mahrashtra.He had clean record so we considered. Till that BJP man Arun Shourie exposed Antulay's noble cause "Cement Quota against Donations to Indira Gandhi Pristhan." Just a matter of few Coroes but your Arun Shourie destroyed the spotless career of Antulay.

But question still remans who delivered Karkare into lap of Terrorists ? For your information Karkare's office is located at a distance of three minutes walk from the site of his encounter .

Damn cofusing !
a k ghai
mumbai, India
Dec 18, 2008 12:00 AM
465
K Bagachi: Part-1

>Slave-like is your choice of word. But yes, a state does belong to a nation, till it receives aid from that >nation. In Kashmir’s case, it gets more aid than any other state, with a ‘special status’ thrown in.


*** A 'state'--here to mean a division of a 'country' , is not a commodity, not a piece of real-estate, to be OWNED by anyone. IF there is a OWNER, it is the people who live there, call it home. A state ceases to be a state when it is used to purge the people who call it home from the equation, like my fellow desis do when they spout their fantasy of OWNING Kashmir, Nagaland, Assam--or what have you.

Herein lies a serious problem with desi-demokrasy and its proponents, an intelligentsia that is fundamentally ignorant of what constitutes democratic values . But we do understand why it is so: Because they never have been taught those fundamentals. They never have seen or experienced the democratic ethos in action. Since these ideals do not come imprinted on the genes or the foreheads, even desi-ones, we see these patently absurd arguments made by what could be surmised to be the country's best minds. Ugh!

>Only nut cases can ask army to ‘produce’ something, or call it an ‘industry’. Don’t you need people to >GUARD what you produce?

*** A nation , even the billion people country of India , would NOT need half a million soldiers to protect its border at Kashmir/Pakistan. India needs such numbers to control the Kashmiris under the barrels of its guns. Just like it does to control the restive NE region Peoples. And if Kashmir did not have to be controlled with an overwhelming military presence, there would be no border protection issue at the Pakistan/Kashmir boundary.

The huge military presence requires a massive logistical support system. Who provides that? There is a INDUSTRY of these providers, properly supported and promoted by a 'duly elected' and 'selected-on-merit'' body of BRIBE recipients.This huge cabal will collapse, if all of a sudden India's military presence at Kashmir and the NE region becomes redundant. Will the BENEFICIARIES of this industry let this golden goose be killed without a fight-to-the last? You tell us.

Chandan K Mahanta
St. Louis, United States
Dec 18, 2008 12:00 AM
466
K Bagachi: Part-2


>>“India's need to or claim of having to 'please' the Muslims is a myth and a fabrication of Hindu >>fantasies.”

>We gave in to their demands of partition, didn’t we?

*** WHO is this "WE"? Hindus? Was there a HINDU nation, a HINDU India before the British colonized the sub-continent ? A bit of high-school history surely would have prevented making such arguments.

>Ever wondered why a community that ruled India for 5 centuries is living in such conditions?

*** How about the Shining India's non-Muslim slums of today? Have you been to Dharavi? If not, go see
Slum-dog Millionaire. Or Kolkata's municipal dumps on the way to the city from the airport.

> Dalits have been worse, but they have done better.

*** That would be a very funny comment , if not so tragic.

>His teerth yatras are not subsidized.

*** Sure. They go buy their way to heaven with their own loot. That I will agree. The only difference is that the Haj transportation lobby is mostly owned by Gujaratis and Hindus and Parsees and Marwaris, with whose blessings, the BJP and NDA govts. actually EXPANDED the program. Of course you would not know anything about that, and if you did won't speak of it here, would you?

Chandan K Mahanta
St. Louis, United States
Dec 18, 2008 12:00 AM
467
GANESAN you said that "The PM, Chidambaram play to one gallery while Antulay is playing to another gallery. Whether this charade will work or not remains to be seen but it is pretty obvious."
1. "it is pretty obvious." - Apparently it is not obvious to everyone. I was scanning blogs on one of Indian news sites and and a muslim blogger wrote "The truth is coming out now"
2. "Whether this charade will work or not" - going by history of our nation, not only will it work but its already working.
We are not nationalists - we are Mumbites, Keralites, Delhites - anything but Indians

escoss
delhi, India
Dec 18, 2008 12:00 AM
468
GANESAN you said that "The PM, Chidambaram play to one gallery while Antulay is playing to another gallery. Whether this charade will work or not remains to be seen but it is pretty obvious."
1. "it is pretty obvious." - Apparently it is not obvious to everyone. I was scanning blogs on one of Indian news sites and and a muslim blogger wrote "The truth is coming out now"
2. "Whether this charade will work or not" - going by history of our nation, not only will it work but its already working.
We are not nationalists - we are Mumbites, Keralites, Delhites - anything but Indians

escoss
delhi, India
Dec 18, 2008 12:00 AM
469
Unfortunately Kashmir, Gujrat Riots and Babri Masjid demolition and lately zionist-American- Hindu nexus (elaborated by our Hon. minister of Minority Affair in Parliament) have become a favouite song for all short sighted journalists to sing singly or conjointly whenever terrorists even from other country strike India. The above does not hold good for Pakistan, Afghanistan, Middle East, Chenchaya, China, Indonesia, Europe and USA. Let us open our eyes and recognise that terrorism is rampant all over the world.Unforutately its base is in Pakistan as said by our PM. Hence I will request open their eyes and recognise the underlying cause of this malady. Let us not be guided by propaganda by terrorist front organisations and individuals. On the other hand we should be united to face this menace. Jai Hind
Chandra Prakash
Munster (IND), United States
Dec 18, 2008 12:00 AM
470
"That I will agree. The only difference is that the Haj transportation lobby is mostly owned by Gujaratis and Hindus and Parsees and Marwaris "

There is no such lobby .Haj is purely an Muslim affair .No hindu is involved.

Your views that Assamese are not Indians is again a propganda like ULFA.Being an Assamese you must be knowing that ULFA has become now a hafta Collecting Machine .ULFA through its proxies grab various contracts in the Assam .20% funds go for the Projects so contarcted and balnce 80% funds go into Pockets of the ULFA .

Flushed with loot ULFA cadres are able to send their wards for higher studies in USA and other countries.

How do I know ? Becuause I served in Asaam in Public Sector .I know how the ULFA and SULFA are depriving Assamese .

Come on freind let us be honest .
a k ghai
mumbai, India
Dec 18, 2008 12:00 AM
471
K Ghai wrote:

>>"That I will agree. The only difference is that the Haj transportation lobby is mostly owned by >>Gujaratis and Hindus and Parsees and Marwaris "

>There is no such lobby .Haj is purely an Muslim affair .No hindu is involved.

*** I admire the certitude with which you defy reality. Would be very commendable, had it not been for the fact that it either is a demonstration of total ignorance or a bald-faced lie.

Do you know WHO provides all the air transportation that take Haj pilgrims to Mecca? It is not the Pakistani air-force or Air India. Most of them go by chartered flights. Now if you did a wee bit of research you would find out who owns them. But that would mean bothering with the truth, Who needs that, right?


>Your views that Assamese are not Indians is again a propganda like ULFA.

*** It is not MY view. I don't even live in Assam. But there is a low intensity warfare going on in Assam for a quarter century. Over 15,000 Assamese are dead. They are MY people. I lost two nephews--sons of first cousins, one to police summary execution and one being caught in a crossfire. My people want peace, an honorable and fair POLITICAL settlement of the conflict.
Just like Arundhati Roy spoke about for the other conflicts.

Propaganda usually has no substance. If there was no substance to the alienation of the people of Assam, there would have been no ULFA, and the Indian govt. could not be held in such contempt by the people of Assam for creating the monster of SULFA.


>Assamese you must be knowing that ULFA has become now a hafta Collecting Machine ----

*** And THAt is NEW to India?

>Flushed with loot ULFA cadres are able to send their wards for higher studies in USA and other >countries.

*** And THAt is NEW to India? Do you know that every minister of any significance from the Center or the states, every high govt. official, police ooficers, military officers have children in the USA today, NRIs. MM Singh's daughter included. Many of them have attended pRIVATE colleges and universities with their OWN money, no dubt from thre high govt. salaries for their outstanding public service.

>.I know how the ULFA and SULFA are depriving Assamese .

**** Heh-heh! While Indian businesses have looted the region dry over the decades, and continue to do so with the assistance of the cadres of the dysfunctional and rotten desi-demokrasy, with no tools for holding anyone accountable.

Chandan K Mahanta
St. Louis, United States
Dec 18, 2008 12:00 AM
472
mahanta

assamese people can vote for a govt which will
permit separation from india.

i have nothing against it. in any case assam will
one day be swallowed up by bangladesh. that be
your major headache and not the other indians,

for that matter bengal can leave along with you.
that way indians can be rid of arundhati roy,
communists and millions of spercilious bongos.
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
Dec 18, 2008 12:00 AM
473
Arundhati: Learn from Rushdie

''Rushdie said that only two months ago the Zardari government authorised the purchase of an armoured vehicle for a Lashkar-e-Toiba leader. "So he is driving around Pakistan in an armoured vehicle purchased by the army of Pakistan."

The panelists recalled that Musharraf was responsible for aiding Lashkar-e-Taeba to fight in Kashmir during his years in the army and Rushdie said he put up a western face to the Westerns but was mullah to extremists.

Rushdie strongly attacked Booker Prize winner Arundhiti Roy for linking the Mumbai terrorist attacks to Kashmir, Gujarat riots and demolition of Babri Masjid.

The terrorists, the participants said, are driven by a different philosophy and ideology and want to take the world back into the medieval ages.

But they agreed that terrorists failed in their apparent bid to split Hindus and Muslims and ignite communal riots as both the communities condemned the attacks and vowed to unitedly fight terror.

Visibly agitated at Pakistan's involvement in the terrorist attack, Suketu Mehta said, "ISI should be declared a terrorist outfit. They are behind the attack on Indian Embassy in Kabul. They are behind the attacks in Bombay (as Mumbai was called ea rlier). They should be banned first and foremost for the sake of Pakistan itself." AP
Rose
New York, United States
Dec 18, 2008 12:00 AM
474
Arundhati Roy is now a proven STEALTH jihadist-helping spread the Islamic terrorist-demographic conquest of India
Rose
New York, United States
Dec 18, 2008 12:00 AM
475
Mahanta, perhaps the ULFA or the NSCN of Nagaland should teach the rest of India what it means to be truly democratic, secular, pluralistic, tolerant and modern. They could at least start by setting an example themselves, rather than merely being forever reactive to what the Indian government and armed forces are doing (which, incidentally, is at least upholding democratic federalism in Assam and Nagaland, and not imposing a Kim Jong or an Idi Amin).
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Dec 18, 2008 12:00 AM
476
Paraphrasing Mahanta "...there never was an India" Oh, for the love of ....That is not an issue, and it wasn't an issue in 1947. There are arguments for an against the idea that there was an India before the British came. There are people who speak of a deep underlying fundamental unity as well. But the issue back in '47 and now, is not whether India is a monolithic entity- is any country, is Britain?- but whether India's democratic, federal system can accomodate the great variety of language and culture that exists in the subcontinent. Quite a lot of people feel that it can and does!
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Dec 19, 2008 12:00 AM
477
Why is everyone giving this woman so much importance? She is just a one novel wonder. Her views are always anti-India whether or not it is correct. She speaks garbage with such authority as if she heads an international or national intelligence agency. Stop publishing her nonsense. Ignore her complety and poor stupid woman will go find some other job.
RV
Minneapolis, USA
Dec 19, 2008 12:00 AM
478
Learned/Thiagan,

>> The context was who killed innocent civilians and went without punishment.

(1) Al Qaeda, LeT, Abhinav Bharat, Bajrang Dal and other terrorists. (2) Bush (3) Modi. There are others, but these three are the main killers of innocent civilains. The majority of them went without punishment. You, as a supporter of Modi, Bush, Bajrangdal and Abhinave Bharat, are complicit, but being an idiot, you would not realize that.

>> Last time the imams who congregated in Deoband and passed the fatwa against terrorism was more anti American than anti terror.

The last major gathering was in Hyderabad, not in Deoband. Read their resolution. I have already shown sufficient evidence of your ignorance and misinformation, which together with your extreme ill-will, make you the ludicrous commentator that you are.

>> He is, of course, less delusional than the founder.

Stupidly bringing up religion irrespective of what issue is being discussed, is further evidence of your poor upbringing as well as dopishness.

>> Darfur. Please read on the greatest genocide in the recent past.

Using a human tragedy, in which the victims and perpetrators are both Muslims, for your hate propaganda purposes shows what a low level person you are. Over 800,000 Africans have been killed in the fighting between Tutsis and Hutus in Rwanda and Congo, but it is of no interest to you, because there are no Muslims to smear in that conflict!

>> Swedish police are mulling chartering special planes in anticipation of the government’s wishes to step up the pace of deportations of the thousands of unsuccessful asylum seekers.

Idiot these are not just Muslims, but illegal immigrants from the third world. Sweden has an excellent record accepting Muslim immigrants from Iraq. You search far and wide to get material for your anti-Muslim hate campaign usually leads to duds, which you, being not too bright, present triumphantly, and make a fool of yourself. You are truly a creep. I wonder how you can live with yourself!
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 19, 2008 12:00 AM
479
Banito/Lalit,

>> faruki..... blows up the crimes committed by others, and gives islam and muslims a good report.

I do not give any clean chits to anyone, but in this forum there is already enough dirt being thrown at Muslims by you, Bodepudi, Seshadri and Thiagan, so I try to tell you first of all that you guys often do lie and exaggerate, and secondly that, contrary to your delusions, there are no people with clean hands.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 19, 2008 12:00 AM
480
Seshadri,

>> trying to build up a fictitious case of hindutva terrorism in the country.

Although I do not agree with Antulay, you are one hundred times worse then him. You can lie and lie and lie without any compunction!
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 19, 2008 12:00 AM
481
Rose/Bodepudi,

>> AR: Please write about Jihad, politics and geo-politics of Islam.

AR, please write about Rose/Bodepudi's call for murder of Muslim clerics and razing of mosques and his call for genocide in our beloved country.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 19, 2008 12:00 AM
482
Chandan,

>> go see Slum-dog Millionaire.

I agree. All Indians should see it. It is an eye-opener on life in big city slums and on exploitation of children for beggar business and prostitution.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 19, 2008 12:00 AM
483
faruki

we should stop judgeing each other.

lets be judged by impartial foreign observers.,

will you accept this- and lets stop right now,

you reject all mainstream opinion, just as you reject us.

i have critucised islam and muslim. i criticise
caste driven hindu hard liners.

however the hindus have modernised fast- this can be seen by watching tv, the street scene,
and the number of women in society.

muslims have not.

being a modernist myself i am biased against islam, an d muslims who are bacward, and antimodernist.

i have nothing against modern liberal muslims.
they are just fine.

banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
Dec 19, 2008 12:00 AM
484
Rse::>>"Arundhati Roy is now a proven STEALTH jihadist-helping spread the Islamic terrorist-demographic conquest of India"

My own assessment, after finally going thro her long-drawn ramble, the moral of her story seems to be that every one in the world, hindus, other indics, moslems, jews and protestants should all join her catholic christian faith, for total peace in justice, under His Holiness, her Pope, the only entity in the world she has not castigated, in her message. Clearly, her mind is still firm on what she might have been told at her nursery convent school, not broadened any further. May God and the pope bless her with some peace of mind.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Dec 19, 2008 12:00 AM
485
faruki

you provoke people, by abuses and insults which
are bizzare and hideous.

what are you getting out of this.

this is like mud wrestling.

for a change confront americans. wrestling american free style.

frankly besides getting thoroughly disliked you achieve nothing,
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
Dec 19, 2008 12:00 AM
486
"My own assessment, after finally going thro her long-drawn ramble, the moral of her story seems to be that every one in the world, hindus, other indics, moslems, jews and protestants should all join her catholic christian faith, for total peace in justice, under His Holiness, her Pope, the only entity in the world she has not castigated, in her message. Clearly, her mind is still firm on what she might have been told at her nursery convent school, not broadened any further. May God and the pope bless her with some peace of mind."

Ms. Roy is an atheist.
root2squared
Stamford, United States
Dec 19, 2008 12:00 AM
487
"AR, please write about Rose/Bodepudi (?)'s call for murder of Muslim clerics and razing of mosques and his call for genocide in our beloved country." Anwar Patel

This cements yours and her political fiction writing and consummates the alliance between theocratic and secular fascists

Rose
New York, United States
Dec 19, 2008 12:00 AM
488
>>So the man who presided over the Gujarat genocide was re-elected twice

A Roy. will openly express her disgust for a democratically elected chief of state.

>>Arnab Goswami turned to the camera; "Arundhati Roy and Prashant Bhushan," he said, "I hope you are watching this. We think you are disgusting." For a TV anchor to do this in an atmosphere as charged and as frenzied as the one that prevails today amounts to incitement

But if another reporter expresses his non-violent views against A Roy, in a program where he has total right to air his views -A Roy will call it incitement, call to violence and what not.

Indeed She is a God of Small Minds.

She will advocate in favor of the cessation of Kashmir (
http://www.time.com/tim.../0,9171,1838586,00.html
)
But will forget one of the largest instances of ethnic cleansing of Kashmiri Pandits as not intellectual enough.


>>What we're experiencing now is blowback, the cumulative result of decades of quick fixes and dirty deeds. The carpet's squelching under our feet.

A Roy will justify the terror attacks on India as something that we invited, even invented, will rationalize it away as a result of injustice, but will not acknowledge that injustice is a double edged sword - and includes those that died in Mumbai, Jaipur, Varanasi, Bangalore, Hyderabad - and Malegaon.

varun
Bangalore, India
Dec 19, 2008 12:00 AM
489
R:>>"Ms. Roy is an atheist"

Quite possible, like karat and other communists.
Among churchians, the church often takes over the place of God, replaced by the politbureau, when they turn communists. They call themselves atheists, but their ideology becomes the equivalent of a theology for them. Excessively 'organized' religions or socio-systems develop this character. Buddheists started with 'buddham SaraNam gacchaami' ended up with 'sangham SaraNam gacchaami'. Some elements in the sangh-parivar do demand abslute powers for the sarsaalak. There are some hindu mutts, where the maTaadhipathis want to be treated as God, by the disciples. religion should be based on hrillajja, heart-felt humility, to be spiritually productive; otherwise, it becomes a demonic cult, self-destroyed over time. genuine agnostics, atheists but humbly given to human service, not self-theists, like Nehru was, are rare specimens. They are really monotheists, with no specific names for their God, but seeing it as real power behind the cosmos, like Tagore with his 'religion of man'.

sarva-ahantaah Subhaantakaah. All forms of ego delude and deny spiritual enhancement and enlightenment. dehaahantaa: seeing oneself as body alone: leads to pleasure-seek decay; mano-ahantaa, leads to wealth-seek only; buddhyahantaa leads to ideological power-seek; aatmaahantaa can be true spirituality if one sees one's soul as sub-tuned to the absolute supersoul, otherwise it becomes a demonic devil-force to be destroyed by God, eventually. Most atheists operate only as self-theists of this category, before self-destruction. .
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Dec 19, 2008 12:00 AM
490
will someone give a hard slap to that woman arundhati roy.. and send her to the pakiland.. she is an idiot.....
george
london, United Kingdom
Dec 19, 2008 12:00 AM
491

http://www.dailypioneer...9/Islamist-Antulay.html


The Minister’s shocking comments are no off-the-cuff remarks; they are of a piece with the sinister fiction that is being peddled by Islamists at home and abroad and are indistinguishable from the Goebbelsian propaganda that has flooded Islamic websites after the fidayeen attack to absolve Pakistan, Pakistanis and Islamabad-sponsored terrorist organisations like the Lashkar-e-Tayyeba of the gruesome mass slaughter and horrific destruction.

There can be only two responses to his outrageous statement: The Prime Minister must summarily sack him from the Cabinet and the Congress should expel him from the party. But such response can be possible only if Mr Antulay has acted on his own, without the Prime Minister’s approval and the Congress leadership’s clearance. Since the Prime Minister and the Congress have not reacted as they should have, we can only presume that Mr Antulay, who now says that he “does not owe an explanation to anyone”, is not alone in this gross attempt to caricature the truth. This is typical of the Congress: It will stoop to any level to pander to fanatics in the hope of garnering Muslim votes.
Al Bundy
San Francisco, United States
Dec 19, 2008 12:00 AM
492
Banito/Lalit,

>> you reject all mainstream opinion, just as you reject us.

You call yourself mainstream? That's a laugh! You are an ultra-rightwing communalist nut.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 19, 2008 12:00 AM
493
>>"Although I do not agree with Antulay"

Minority-phobia ends up destroying democracies, whether it operates as minority eliminators as in pak or malaysia, or as minority-appeasers, as in india. The ideal situation would be to avoid recognizing minorities of any kind, in an equi-dimensional citizenship for all, the state working for all, equally. Having a mindset for mino is itself anti-demo.

Modi has been successfully developing gujarat at a high rate, only after he started talking, always, only about the needs of 'all gujaraties' 'not any sections thereof. Same thing must happen for india as a whole, for indians as a whole, without any micro-perceptions based on creed, caste, sex, region, language, etc. Those politicians who talk divisively should be banned from elections and legislatures. Social uplift prgrams, if any, should be only based on plain and simple and transparent economic criteria.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Dec 19, 2008 12:00 AM
494
Rose/Bodepudi,

>> This cements yours and her political fiction writing.

On the contrary, it highlights your venomous and murderous character, making it a worthy subject for a cautionary tale.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 19, 2008 12:00 AM
495
Seshadri,

>> Minority-phobia ends up destroying democracies.

Simplistic and unidimensional answers to complex problems may satisfy you, especially if you can align them to your deeply ingrained prejudices. Answers to such sociological issues have to be multifaceted.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 19, 2008 12:00 AM
496
I bet A Roy contributed to this book ->

http://www.outlookindia...081215&fname=naim&sid=1

varun
Bangalore, India
Dec 19, 2008 12:00 AM
497
faruki

call me upstream, and you are down street.forget the mainstream. its definateluy not countercurrents or the other pamphlets you read. salman rushdie is mainstream.so is fareed zakaria. nasser khader as well. all disliked by most muslims.

you are on full time defending muslims, even admitting they are backward . thats all that i say. nothing more then that. we dont disagree at
all.

you dont have to flare up all the time. thats one reason why people mock you. its like throwing
stones at caged chimps.

as an animal lover i find this most depressing.
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
Dec 19, 2008 12:00 AM
498
varun

bangalore

in europe there a few gangs of killers, all out
to kill the capitalist swine,as they called them.

you could google- baader meinhoff- from germany.

roy is a nonviolent version of the same. like
the shineing path in peru.

just forget her.
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
Dec 19, 2008 12:00 AM
499
RV from Minneapoils wrote:

>Why is everyone giving this woman so much importance? She is >just a one novel wonder. Her views are always anti-India >whether or not it is correct. ----

**** Hard to figure out, isn't it?

How about perhaps her arguments make these folks who get bent out of shape to no end feel crummy about their uninformed, bigoted, hateful beliefs ? Being unable to articulate a coherent and logical rebuttal, they resort to what amounts to mud-slinging, to put it mildly; hoping that somehow it will stick on her persona and thus devalue the message she puts forth. Just proves what little people they are.
Chandan K Mahanta
St. Louis, United States
Dec 19, 2008 12:00 AM
500
mahanta

read salman rushdie about the mumbai likkings and his comments on arundhati roy.

you seem to have a personal grouse against india,
but your cynical attitude towards the people killed is no credit for you.

its silly for roy to keep on liveing in india .she no love for the country. for many indians she is worse then pakistanis. and thats
saying something.
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
Dec 19, 2008 12:00 AM
501
Mahanta,
>>Being unable to articulate a coherent and logical rebuttal

Coherent and logical rebuttals are given to coherent and logical and fact based articulations.

What we have in A Roy's writings are stuff like

"What we're experiencing now is blowback, the cumulative result of decades of quick fixes and dirty deeds. The carpet's squelching under our feet."

This worst kind of terror justification deserves only dearly whatever bricks it gets.
varun
Bangalore, India
Dec 19, 2008 12:00 AM
502
All those who are saying that Roy is justifying the attacks are monumentally stupid brain dead morons who should remove themselves from the gene pool or at least not breed so as not lower the collective IQ of the world.

She is NOT JUSTIFYING it.

She is pointing out some uncomfortable truths that pose a danger to democracy and justice in India and which play a role in terrorism. Not the sole role, but one of many factors.
root2squared
Stamford, United States
Dec 19, 2008 12:00 AM
503
Yo ROOT2SQUARED,
Nothing against you but why don't you mention that your name is Mohammad Maulana Jaleel Kameen!

Next you will tell us is that this mofo Antulay is just pointing out some uncomfortable truths!

Go back under the stone you crawled under from.
escoss
delhi, India
Dec 19, 2008 12:00 AM
504
Escoss

You retard. I am not a Muslim. Your assumption that anyone who criticizes Hindus must be a Muslim shows your lack of inability to think rationally.

root2squared
Stamford, United States
Dec 19, 2008 12:00 AM
505
Yo Rootunknown!
Lying never helped anyone including Antulay so own up.
escoss
delhi, India
Dec 19, 2008 12:00 AM
506
I am an atheist from a Hindu family from Bombay
root2squared
Stamford, United States
Dec 19, 2008 12:00 AM
507
>>>:"Answers to such sociological issues have to be multifaceted".

Right. Even if moslems within major non-moslem countries are nationally integrated for progress in peace, there are at least two more problem-facets to be faced transnatinally: Osama [aSama, duryodhan, in khaandahaar, gaandhaara and faruki [vara-roki, duhSaasan, in texas, daksha-raajya].
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Dec 19, 2008 12:00 AM
508
Varun wrote:

>This worst kind of terror justification deserves only dearly >whatever bricks it gets.

*** Wow! You hit hard Varun. Except that you have not articulated a single credible, meaningful rebuttal yet, since I have visited this forum , what about three or four days back? In case I missed your point/s of rebuttal, will you be kind enough to point me to them?

BTW, calling AR names does not constitute a rebuttal, if you haven't got that yet.
Chandan K Mahanta
St. Louis, United States
Dec 19, 2008 12:00 AM
509
ROOT2SQUARED,

I am one too-an atheist from a nominally Hindu family, but from Assam. Keep up the good work :-).
Chandan K Mahanta
St. Louis, United States
Dec 19, 2008 12:00 AM
510
AR: Please respond to Rushdie

"Rushdie also slammed Pakistan for its "cynical denial" that the terrorists involved in Mumbai strikes were not its nationals.

"The fact is the world's terrorist organisations are all based in Pakistan. Taliban are there, al-Qaeda are there, LeT is there. They are all there with the active support of the Pakistani intelligence," he said while participating in a panel discussion at the Asia Society.

Referring to the remarks of British Prime Minister Gordon Brown that three-fourths of terror plots had links to Pakistan and al-Qaeda, the India-born novelist said Islamabad "can't go on pretending that there is no evidence. That's all garbage".

He said that "when the President of Pakistan pretends that there is no evidence against somebody, he is also complicit in that. It is time to say to Pakistan this has to stop. You can't be a member of the free group of nations, if you are among the world's sponsor of terrorism, which is what now they have been".

Rose
New York, United States
Dec 19, 2008 12:00 AM
511
Seshadri,

>> there are at least two more problem-facets to be faced transnatinally: Osama [aSama, duryodhan, in khaandahaar, gaandhaara and faruki [vara-roki, duhSaasan, in texas, daksha-raajya].

Do you think that is a clever reply? You can offer only lies or inanities.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 19, 2008 12:00 AM
512
Learned/Thiagan,

>> They are muslim illegal immigrants.

Liar, Sweden has illegal immigrants from Muslim countries, sub-saharan Africa and Eastern Europe. Rape statistics have been used at different times against Muslims, Jews, Gypsies and Afro-Americans. They may be useful to stupid hate propagandists like yourself. I had to point out to you before that India has a staggering increase in cases of gang rape. You have come back with the same subject again. Rape must be on your mind! Seems you are groping for anti-Muslim material all over the internet. All you are proving is your sick obsessionalism and your stupidity.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 19, 2008 12:00 AM
513
Hi Adolf
>read salman rushdie about the mumbai likkings and his >comments on arundhati roy.

*** I don't need Salman Rushdie's opinions or analyses to be able to read, comprehend, analyze and make up my mind about what has been going on in India.

AR was explicit, detailed and categorical about her denunciation of the mindless killings perpetrated by the terrorists. If you missed that, you need to take some remedial courses in reading simple English. Even Italians could teach you that. And if Salman Rushdie missed that, he too could use some of that .

>you seem to have a personal grouse against india,
>but your cynical attitude towards the people killed is no credit >for you.

*** What exactly did you read in my writings in this forum that displays that 'cynicism' you charge me with towards people killed by the Mumbai terrorists? Will you be kind enough to point them out?

Incidentally, I have run into this charge about my anti-Indianism any number of times. It is always levelled by people of low or no intellect, who equate criticism of Indian policies with anti-Indianism. Just like the pack of desis here levelling that charge against AR.

Take a moment to ponder: IF Indian policies on this matter had been wise, useful or productive, WHY have these acts of violence been more and more frequent and more and more violent? I am not sure if you read graphs, but if you did, you would see a very steep curve. It is called a trend. Do you not see the trend? If you do, why do you think more of the same Indian policies will produce better or different outcomes?


>its silly for roy to keep on liveing in india .she no love for the >country.

*** So , those who disagree with state policy is unpatriotic and undeserving to be a citizen of a 'democratic, pluralistic society' to you, right? Do you understand the implications of what you are saying Adolf? I am not sure if one should laugh or cry.

Chandan K Mahanta
St. Louis, United States
Dec 19, 2008 12:00 AM
514
Varun wrote:


>Mahanta, perhaps the ULFA or the NSCN of Nagaland should teach the rest of India what it means to >be truly democratic, secular, pluralistic, tolerant and modern.


*** Perhaps they would, if they are given that chance.

I have heard that argument too a myriad times before. It is amazing that grown men make that argument . I presume you are a grown man, that is.

What however would be more apt in this instance, and far more useful, would be for desi-demokrasy to show its mettle; show how it upholds the rule of law, how its institutions of state are able to exact accountability of its ranks, how the people's interests are served by their elected reps, how those who run for elective office are able people and elections are not between dumb and dumber, between a convicted criminal and a shyster, so on and so forth. And if it becomes evident that the state is being run by able people and justice is available for all, in their life-times ( I refer to the 30 yr.backlog in desi-courts in case you had not heard), then it might make a difference. Most of all, you would not be bombarded with the cacophony of Indian voices out for their politicians' blood -- all of them; post Mumbai.


>They could at least start by setting an >example themselves, rather than merely being forever reactive >to what the Indian government and >armed forces are doing (which, incidentally, is at least upholding >democratic federalism in Assam and >Nagaland, and not imposing a Kim Jong or an Idi Amin).


*** I do admire your care about Nagas , Assamese, Kashmiris etc. having to endure Kim Jong Il or Idi Dada. Brings tears to my eyes.
Chandan K Mahanta
St. Louis, United States
Dec 19, 2008 12:00 AM
515
Hi Adolf:



>assamese people can vote for a govt which will permit separation from india.

*** Now THAT is a mature idea. And I am not being sarcastic this time. Not a new one, but a courageous one to advocate. I did that, and was hounded by desis like this pack is doing to AR. Incidentally, ULKFA has agreed to abide by the outcome of such an election. What more could one ask? If only India had the you-know-whats to submit to it!


>i have nothing against it. in any case assam will one day be swallowed up by bangladesh. that be
>your major headache and not the other indians,

*** That may be scary to Hindians, but most in Assam live quite amicably with their Muslim brethren. There are exceptions -- from the usual quarters obviously. And the unchecked flow across the borders guarded by those selfless, fearsome, patriotic Indian BSF personnel is a problem. But there are solutions for it. Only India is unable to deal with those as it stands.


>for that matter bengal can leave along with you. that way indians can be rid of arundhati roy,
>communists and millions of spercilious bongos.


**** Oooh! You hate them Bongos too, huh? What did THEY do to you? Won't pay homage to your
culture, language, politics?
Chandan K Mahanta
St. Louis, United States
Dec 19, 2008 12:00 AM
516
"most in Assam live quite amicably with their Muslim brethren"

Must be, an alternate reality world - or is this how people who really understand English insist on distorting reality....what an immaculate liar!
lookout bug me not
mumbai, India
Dec 19, 2008 12:00 AM
517
Yoginder Sikand Pukes out the latest conspiracy theory !

Mossad & CIA were responsible for the mumbai terror attack !!

Mossad-CIA Connection ToMumbai Terror Attacks?

By Yoginder Sikand


http://awamibharat.blog...on-tomumbai-terror.html

lookout bug me not
mumbai, India
Dec 19, 2008 12:00 AM
518
LOOKOUT BUG ME NOT

>Must be, an alternate reality world - or is this how people who >really understand English insist on distorting reality....what an >immaculate liar!

*** Really? Obviously Hindians consumed by muslim-hatred cannot comprehend it, but trust me, it is true. I may not know much, but I know enough not to hurt my credibility by making a false or exaggerated claim that could be extremely easily verified foraccuracy.

And it has nothing to do with my ability to comprehend ordinary English.
Chandan K Mahanta
St. Louis, United States
Dec 19, 2008 12:00 AM
519
>>She is pointing out some uncomfortable truths that pose a danger to democracy and justice in India and which play a role in terrorism. Not the sole role, but one of many factors.

No amount of "uncomfortbale truth" justifies terrorism.

She is another pseudo liberal commie who has no problem explaining away violence against innocents , due to some "uncomfortable truths" as she perceives., just as hamas , let , al qaida are doing.

Rot cause theory is long dead. Nothing justifies violence against innocents in the name of religion.
lookout bug me not
mumbai, India
Dec 19, 2008 12:00 AM
520
LOBMN,


>No amount of "uncomfortbale truth" justifies terrorism.

*** Huh? What does that mean? Is it supposed to mean that since AR points to the uncomfortable truths about the Indian state and its people she condones violence?

That damned English language is a serious problem , for sure!


>She is another pseudo liberal commie who has no problem >explaining away violence against innocents , due to some >"uncomfortable truths" as she perceives., just as hamas , let , al >qaida are doing.


**** Now THAT really demolishes AR's arguments, heh-heh!

>Rot cause theory is long dead.

**** It may be dead to you, but obviously it has not gone away for some. Question is what are you going to do about it?

>Nothing justifies violence against innocents in the name of >religion.

*** Obviously the Mumbai terrorists don't agree with you. But Have you considered trying that on Narender Modi?





She is another pseudo liberal commie who has no problem explaining away violence against innocents , due to some "uncomfortable truths" as she perceives., just as hamas , let , al qaida are doing.

Rot cause theory is long dead. Nothing justifies violence against innocents in the name of religion.
Chandan K Mahanta
St. Louis, United States
Dec 19, 2008 12:00 AM
521
[Obviously Hindians consumed by muslim-hatred cannot comprehend it, but trust me, it is true. I may not know much, but I know enough not to hurt my credibility by making a false or exaggerated claim that could be extremely easily verified for accuracy.]


Hmmmm... - you don't have any statistically verifiable proof - so all this nonsense about your hypothetical credibility and your harangue about muslim hatred.

Nice try - but, find some data and post it - if you make a claim, back it up - rather than whine petulantly.
lookout bug me not
mumbai, India
Dec 19, 2008 12:00 AM
522
>> Is it supposed to mean that since AR points to the uncomfortable truths about the Indian state and its people she condones violence?

It means justifying terorism due to so called "uncomfortable truths" is a well known jihadi tactic , routinry practised by organisations like al qaida . LET and their supporters.

>>That damned English language is a serious problem , for sure!

It certainly looks like that for YOU.
lookout bug me not
mumbai, India
Dec 19, 2008 12:00 AM
523
Chand-ass says :
"That damned English language is a serious problem , for sure!"

Chand-ass seems like a regular English-man set about amongst us unwashed desis - so, far in terms of backing up his claims - he's suggested:

- he has some magic potion called credibility - so, we must all believe it

- other people have the responsibility of "verifying" this poor wanna-be white-boy's claims

- of course if all that fails - there's always the excellent retort of questioning the English skills of everyone else.

Keep trying chand-ass...
lookout bug me not
mumbai, India
Dec 19, 2008 12:00 AM
524
>>** Now THAT really demolishes AR's arguments, heh-heh!

Did she have a cogent argument in the place, which needed to be demolished ?

MAy be thats why you are pondering "That damned English language is a serious problem , for sure!", as you really thought she has an argument.
lookout bug me not
mumbai, India
Dec 19, 2008 12:00 AM
525
>> I may not know much, but I know enough not to hurt my credibility by making a false or exaggerated claim that could be extremely easily verified foraccuracy.

here is one documented calim by certified secular hindu



Printer Friendly Page Send this Article to a Friend

THE STATES

Communal inferno

SUSHANTA TALUKDAR
in Udalguri and Darrang

Clashes in two districts create more than two lakh refugees.
The clashes that broke out on October 3 between Bodos and immigrant Muslim settlers in Northern Assam’s Udalguri and Darrang districts led to the displacement of over two lakh people. Some fled when their homes were burnt, while others were driven to relief camps by the fear of attacks. Villages on either side of National Highway 52, which passes through the two districts, were turned into virtual battlegrounds.

The clashes left 55 dead: 39 immigrant Muslim settlers, 10 Bodos, two Garos, one Bengali Hindu, one Assamese, and two unidentified people. There were 31 dead in Udalguri alone, where the clashes broke out first: 19 Muslim settlers, nine Bodos, and three others. There were 21 dead in Darrang, where the violence soon spread: 17 Muslim settlers, one Bodo, and three others. In Chirang district, an immigrant Muslim woman, who was seven months pregnant, was shot dead by unidentified gunmen. An adult and a child belonging to the community were killed in Baksa district.

http://www.hinduonnet.c...s/20081107252202800.htm

lookout bug me not
mumbai, India
Dec 19, 2008 12:00 AM
526
" While Indian businesses have looted the region dry over the decades, and continue to do so with the assistance of the cadres of the dysfunctional and rotten desi-demokrasy, with no tools for holding anyone accountable'

Mahanta ,

The Marwari Traders plus Assamese Govt Officers plus ULFA + Sulfa all are deeply involved together or individually in pocketing the funds earmarked for Developement under tutelage of Assamia Politicians.

Why blame one group ? By the way the people of Assam like rest of the Indias are equally reponsible for electing corrupt Politicians time and again .Mahanta AGP Cheif Minister and his team was fired with zeal to clean the mess created years of Congress Rule.

Within a few months the AGP played into hands of the businessmen.

Mr Mahnta you have said that your two cousins were killed .I am sorry and I know many families in Assam whose brothers were involved with ULFA but they themseves were not .They do send their wards to USA to save them from joining ULFA or becoming victims of State .I met many such youngmen .I felt really sad for those innocent young men whose future was wrecked in India and had to leave country .

You are free to exhale your anger here but if really want to change Assam go (not advisable )and try for the upliftment of the Assamese society.

However I must confess that when I was sent with a heavy doze of advises , do/don'ts etc from my well wishers.I was a terrified and troubled soul when I landed in Assam .Every next person was under my secrutiny being a suspeted ULFA person.

However with in a span of two days I started loving Assameses .They are down to earth,loving ,caring and God fearing but highly emotional persons.Literature and Asamia Languages are deeply seeped in ancient values and Religeon.

Delhi could have brouht ULFA boys into maistram easily .Delhi failed as it has to built up its Vote Bank by patronisng Migration of Bangladeshies.Alredy demography in Assam has started eroding Assamesi Hindus majority .

And UPFA has abondned its core plank of infiltration .Why ? You know very well.
a k ghai
mumbai, India
Dec 19, 2008 12:00 AM
527
And ULFA has abondned its core plank of infiltration .Why ? You know very well
corrected
a k ghai
mumbai, India
Dec 19, 2008 12:00 AM
528
The problem with some of the liberal writers in India is that whenever one condemns one extremism, they have to condemn the other form of extremism as well. Although any form of extremism (race/religion etc) is dangerous, but in quest of being politically correct, one should equate both forms of extremism (hindu and islamic) in terms of its reach and destructive power. Islamic extremism has got state backing from pakistan and some of the middle east countries and moreover logistic and financial help from the western superpowers for more than two decades. Therefore, today it has achieved an international character, while hindu extremism still do not have complete state backing as yet, and is more local in nature. For the sake of being political correct, equating these two form is, to put it mildly, a mistake.
Indranil
Kolkata, India
Dec 19, 2008 12:00 AM
529
>>:lies or inanities?.

Everybody knows that isama's al-quida and your cair will do all you can to prevent, if ever the hindus and moslems in india become unitedly committed to work together as equal-rights citizens of india.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Dec 19, 2008 12:00 AM
530

True Indian Muslim opposite of Antulay :

"Mumbai strike: attack on Indian nationhood
— Sazzad Hussain

Indian Islam, which constitutes the second largest concentration of the world has blossomed in the rich cultural tradition of Persia and Central Asian Turkey customs along with the Hindu-Buddhist and other elements has never produced hatred and animosity of this proportion as advocated by the Pakistan based Jehadis though its followers have faced too many upheavals here ever since the Partition. Therefore the Mumbai attacks do not bear the mark of Islam, at least from the Indian Muslim perspective--"


http://www.assamtribune...ls.asp?id=dec1908/edit2

a k ghai
mumbai, India
Dec 19, 2008 12:00 AM
531
Seshadri,

>> Everybody knows that isama's al-quida and your cair will do all you can to prevent, if ever the hindus and moslems in india become unitedly committed to work together as equal-rights citizens of india.

Al Qaeda is a terrorist organization and has done more to hurt communal harmony than even the RSS/VHP parivar. You yourself are doing all you can to exacerbate communal hatreds.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 19, 2008 12:00 AM
532
Learned/Thiagan,

>>>> Rape must be on your mind!"
>> Worng again; it is here.

It is there. Did you read what I wrote to you a few weeks ago on how big a problem rape is in India? So rape is there in reality. But I was referring to the fact that rape has become another of your ugly obsessions in your shameful hate war against Muslims. You sick mind seems to seek mud all the time in order to continue your hate war. You are pathetic.

Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 19, 2008 12:00 AM
533


http://www.dawn.com/weekly/jawed/20080812.htm


'I think Indian Muslim leaders need to accept that the act of terrorism perpetrated in Mumbai, and from which they are trying to dissociate themselves by wearing black armbands, is as much their responsibility as it is of the state that allows them to nurture exclusivist and supremacist ideas in their seminaries. The mullahs viciously targeted the beacon of secular poetry, Yas Yagana Changezi, for chiding them thus:

Sab tere siwa kaafir, aakhir iska matlab kya!

Sar phira de insaa’n ka, aisa khabt-i-mazhab kya!!

(All others except you are kaafirs, does it at all make any sense?

Why are you so obsessed with your religion, or is it just pretence?)

Timothy McVeigh, who bombed a federal building in Oklahoma City, was an alienated member of American society. Can the mullahs deny that Indian McVeighs are lurking in the shadows of alienation for a variety of reasons that foments satanic ideas of revenge and harm? If they are not in denial then they should recognise that helping isolate the lurking Mcveighs is far more urgent than demonstrating their sympathy with the Indian state.

At one of their meetings, so I am told, Muslim intellectuals and priests alike came up with fanciful stories that ranged from the role of the Israeli intelligence to that of Hindu extremists in the devastation of Mumbai’s high-profile Colaba district. Of the bizarre ideas thrown up by these cynics not all should be dismissed without a moment’s pause, or even a probe, as it would be cavalier to ignore such questions, even if they seem predictable.

-- it does not absolve Indian Muslims of their responsibility to prepare for a big battle within their ranks against fanatical tendencies that breed terrorism.

To that extent the Indian state is equally culpable for having surrendered the community’s fate and identity to an association of self-serving clerics. The All India Muslim Personal Law Board has proved to be the undoing of the 150 million strong community, as it has kept them tethered to mediaeval notions of religion, a fertile ground for breeding violence. The clerics earned brownie points demanding the ban on Salman Rushdie’s otherwise unreadable book.

They also got the government to overturn a law that empowered Muslim women at par with other Indian women in matters of divorce. Even today there are pockets in northe--

The attack in Mumbai might resemble the 9/11 plot, or even look like an aborted sea-based attack on Israel, but it also has shades of the Oklahoma bomber. In other words, it is at least partly home-grown. Let us not get away by pointing, as some Muslim leaders have done, to the recent discovery of neo-fascist Hindu groups for the Mumbai atrocity. These groups may have indulged in false flag attacks by pretending to be Muslims elsewhere. But the Mumbai terrorists were too spectacular to be blamed on nascent fascists who are under probe. To deny any role of Indian Muslim extremists, as facilitators if not as plotters, in the Mumbai tragedy would be opportunism with an eye on the next elections.'
a k ghai
mumbai, India
Dec 19, 2008 12:00 AM
534
chandan

assamese like you dislike us common desis.

frankly i dislike you in return.

thats fair.

and yes i think assam and bengal are poor, argumentative, and a burden on the rest of india, who still believe in india.

you want to leave. good.goodbye.

just stop bmw.
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
Dec 19, 2008 12:00 AM
535
chandan

i visit india 2 months an year.

dureing this time i try and do someting useful,
for children and the many poor.

i have worked for a better environment in delhi,through a self created ngo. thats over
and done with.

dureing this time i made friends with a few journalists. some of them told me.

civic matters eg environment dont interest readers, they prefer reading about other matters.

well i am disgusted by many indians. they bmw,
and do damn all.

you are one of this ludicrous, shameless brigade.

go spend your whole life hateing us, i am fed
up of this woman roy. she did her best to stop construction of the narmada damn , which is now a huge sucess.

europe has ridden itself of these loose cannons.
the type of anarchic politicians like roy dont
have any support at all.

do some good, or leave india, and thats fine.
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
Dec 19, 2008 12:00 AM
536
Daily Times : "Killing of Indian terrorist squad chief conspiracy’

Storm in Lok Sabha over minister’s claim

* Red-faced Congress swiftly dissociates itself from statement, will seek explanation from Minority Affairs Minister AR Antulay

NEW DELHI: Indian Minority Affairs Minister Abdul Rahman Antulay has caused a storm in the Lok Sabha on Wednesday and Thursday, suggesting that the killing of Anti-Terrorism Squad chief Hemant Karkare in Mumbai during last month’s terror attacks was a conspiracy.

The minister said he was killed due to his leading role in the investigations of the 2006 Malegaon bombings that killed eight people outside a mosque and have been blamed on Hindu nationalists.

“Anyone trying to go to the roots of terror has always been a target,” he said, calling for a separate inquiry into Karkare’s death. “There is more than what meets the eye,” he said, adding that the top official went to Cama Hospital instead of the Taj and Oberoi hotels, and was wearing a ‘substandard’ bulletproof vest.

Creating five minutes of pandemonium as Antulay sat quietly, opposition legislators said they were not satisfied with his clarification in the House the previous day that he did doubt the terrorists had killed Karkare.

Speaker Somnath Chatterjee tried in vain to pacify the agitated legislators, who continued to protest even after Parliamentary Affairs Minister Vyalar Ravi intervened and assured them the government would look into the matter.

Congress: A red-faced Congress swiftly dissociated itself from the minister. “We don’t accept the inference and the innuendo that underline the statement (by Antulay)...We don’t agree with bringing this case under a cloud,” Times of India newspaper quoted a Congress spokesman as saying. Citing its sources in the party, it said the Congress would seek an explanation from the minister.

Statement: External Affairs Minister Pranab Mukherjee said the government would make a statement on Antulay’s remarks either today (Friday) or before the end of the Lok Sabha on December 23. iftikhar gilani/agencies/ daily times monitor"

Unfortunately Muslims believe Antulay .End of new found unity ?

a k ghai
mumbai, India
Dec 19, 2008 12:00 AM
537
>> The problem with some of the liberal writers in India is that whenever one condemns one extremism, they have to condemn the other form of extremism as well.

Not just 'liberal', many who consider themselves 'conservative' also condemn all forms of extremism, rioting, terrorism etc.

>> Although any form of extremism (race/religion etc) is dangerous, but in quest of being politically correct...

Why think that it is only a quest for being 'politically correct'? For most, it is a quest for being morally correct and consistent on the basis of same principles/values. You dont have to 'defend' a person who did 2 rapes/terror strikes, in order to condemn a guy who did 20.

>> one should (not) equate both forms of extremism … in terms of its reach and destructive power..

True. But what is wrong needs to be condemned nevertheless.

>> For the sake of being political correct, equating these two form is, to put it mildly, a mistake

To equate the level of danger, motivation, reach, sophistication of weapons etc is a mistake. But it is equally a mistake to soft-pedal any of the rioting/murdering/rape/terror etc when such ideology by the group in question is very much active/operational.
Kumar
Bangalore, India
Dec 19, 2008 12:00 AM
538
faruki

most muslims are antimodernist, illeberal,
have problems in nonmuslim socities.

they are much too involved in religion, and much less in education, busness and professions.

the ones who break away do quite well, fareed
zakaria, m.j.akbar are examples. so are the khan bollywood guys, cricketers and sania mirza.


all in all muslims have become very controversial. they fill mainstream media with
negative news.

their govts eg pakistan are decietful, and most
unbalanced.

muslims need to make a uturn.

i am just bored at listening to their problems.
to them i would say. get off your butt and do
something positive. you will get a good response.

the world has lost faith in muslims. you have
to work on the ground to change this.
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
Dec 19, 2008 12:00 AM
539
Indranil::>>"
The problem with some of the liberal writers in India is that whenever one condemns one extremism, they have to condemn the other form of extremism as well...Islamic extremism has got state backing from pakistan and some of the middle east countries and moreover logistic and financial help from the western superpowers for more than two decades. Therefore, today it has achieved an international character, while hindu extremism still do not have complete state "backing as yet, and is more local in nature. For the sake of being political correct, equating these two form is, to put it mildly, a 'mistake' ".

Anwar has kindly provided an example for the 'mistake' you are talking about:

'Al Qaeda is a terrorist organization and has done more to hurt communal harmony than 'even' the RSS/VHP parivar'.

Note the 'even' above. It implies that hinduists are basically cruel, but some islamists are foolishly doing worse than 'even' the fundamentally despicable hindu infidels.

And this anvar objects if I see him spiritually as the 'younger brother' to osama !
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Dec 19, 2008 12:00 AM
540
>> It may be noted that non muslims do not commit any violence in the first instance; if they retalliate, after much forbearance, the violence needs to be understood in the context of self preservation.

You are obviously wrong in stating that "non muslims do not commit any violence". History is full of such violence and in most cases giving justifications on how/why they are giving a befitting treatment to their victims. The simple point is this: By default every human being deserves respect/dignity/justice. Those proven guilty needs to be punished on the basis of a law that is defined and laid out. Ideologies that promote hate/violence/revenge etc on the basis of ethnicity, religion, race etc (where deliberate attack with the intention to harm innocents belonging to the 'opponent' camp is advocated/justified) needs to be condemned and ideologically defeated. If someone thinks that Islam or Christianity or Hinduism itself promotes such ideology of degrading and harming fellow beings, the religious doctrine needs to be criticized. The defender of the religion needs to answer why it is not the case (and bring about such a general consensus among the adherents of that religion).

Kumar
Bangalore, India
Dec 19, 2008 12:00 AM
541
>> You have to understand that the person has committed the two rapes/murders because the other man has committed 20 rapes/murders of the family members of the former.

Firstly, we are talking about killing/raping/rioting/terror strikes etc on the innocents. Secondly, even if the person who raped a family member is clearly identified, going and raping someone from his family is still loathsome. If a person had to kill in self-defense or containing someone on a rampage, even a court would support it.
Kumar
Bangalore, India
Dec 19, 2008 12:00 AM
542
>>>"Al Qaeda is a terrorist organization and has done more to hurt communal harmony than even the RSS/VHP parivar."

This is a truly amazing statement (EVEN MORE!)and some may take is as indicative of the author's real less than totally wholesome intent.
Pradip Singh
stafford, uk
Dec 19, 2008 12:00 AM
543
respected mr ghai

Its worth looking at the response from Pakistan
regarding the assault on Mumbai.

It shows a lack of honesty, deciet and a unbalanced and irrational mind.

I am afraid that there are many in india who have a similar mindser

a merry christmas and new year to you and your
family.
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
Dec 19, 2008 12:00 AM
544
kumar.

how many hindus,christians and muslims do you know. i imagine that most hindus are not so obsessed about their religion. the christians are mkore true to their religion, and ofcource muslims are completely obsessed by it.

we hindus are prepared to accept the absurdities of our religion. its because of this that so many reforms have been made,

muslims do not admit there is anything much wrong with the Koran, the word of good. Obviously
they are not prepared to make changes.

Islam is frozen in time.

Europeans have little interest in Christianity.
Its become a part of their cultural life.

People get married in church-its more stylish and
in better taste then going to a govt office.

Christians in India are about 50 years behind, and the clerics wish the status quo to remain.
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
Dec 19, 2008 12:00 AM
545
Lookout

You get an F for comprehension. Now go and write on the blackboard 1000 times "Roy is NOT justifying terrorism".

Chandan

Good to meet a fellow rational indian :)


root2squared
Stamford, United States
Dec 19, 2008 12:00 AM
546
Lalit:>>"we hindus are prepared to accept the absurdities of our religion. its because of this that so many reforms have been made"

You are right.

Good wishes to you and family, for merry christmas and happy new year.

It is smewhat disturbing to learn that incereasingly larger fractions of the budgets of european countries are getting consumed in unemployment reliefs to moslem minorities with multiple mothers and multitudes of kids, their preferring to stay only unemployed indefinitely, concentrating on procreation only. Brittain, Sweden seem to be getting badly affected. How about Denmark? Perhaps, the laws could be modified to stipulate that, in case of polygamous families, unemployment benefits, for the kids, will be given only for one kid per mother. They would, probably, then go for family planning, abortions or operations, to discontinue childbirths, after the first child.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Dec 19, 2008 12:00 AM
547
In these times, please dont carry the articles by the likes of Arundhati Roys, which only makes our blood boil more. It sucks. Please Vinod Mehta, have mercy ol' man
Robert
Delhi, India
Dec 19, 2008 12:00 AM
548
would like to comment on Arundhati Roy's essay after the 9/11 tragedy.well seeing her antics over the year,i have concluded that the only logical reason for her to indulge in such behaviour is to advertise her lateral thought process,which i may add is non-existent in a schizophrenic psychopath like her.'oh,how can i say what everyone is saying,how can i think the way everyones thinking.i have to sound different.see this shows how i can look at this incident and still be unaffected and can look at a bigger picture.im a super brain sent by Him to show u little ppl the right path.'Mrs Roy..WE DONT THINK SO!!please shut up.thank u.
shardul
ahmedabad, India
Dec 19, 2008 12:00 AM
549
actually i have a theory,she started off trying to prove that she is a intellectual giant and now she has ended up believing it herself!!!she need a reality check and a healthy dose of southeast asian torture techniques performed on her to revive her.
shardul
ahmedabad, India
Dec 19, 2008 12:00 AM
550
Sir

Writen on the blackboard 1000 times "Roy is NUT in justifying terrorism".
Khushi Ram
ambala cantt, India
Dec 19, 2008 12:00 AM
551
Anothe rquestion torturing the stunne dmin dof Antulay : "Why all the three Officers went in one jeep? "

Any answere Mr Ghai or any body ?
Khushi Ram
ambala cantt, India
Dec 19, 2008 12:00 AM
552
khushi

You get an F for spelling.
root2squared
Stamford, United States
Dec 19, 2008 12:00 AM
553
["Roy is NOT justifying terrorism...
ROOT2SQUARED]

Wow - what convinced you of that -
- was it when she was fondling Hamid Gul in Pakistan

- or was it during hug and grope with Yasin Malik

OR - did you get this as elixir, during your rear-end sniffing session of chand-ass.

For someone who does not "justify terrorism" - AR sure does seem to have a lot of love for terrorists who kill Indians on a regular basis.
lookout bug me not
mumbai, India
Dec 19, 2008 12:00 AM
554
Adolf:

>>its silly for roy to keep on liveing in india .she no love for the >country.

*** So , those who disagree with state policy is unpatriotic and undeserving to be a citizen of a 'democratic, pluralistic society' to you, right? Do you understand the implications of what you are saying Adolf? I am not sure if one should laugh or cry.

You did not respond to the above. If you are at a loss of explanation, why not ask Varun of Toronto, who has well memorized the talking points of the propaganda about the liberal, democratic and pluralistic India he so adores. He ought to be able to explain things to you considering that you are a fellow propagandist of his.
Chandan K Mahanta
St. Louis, United States
Dec 19, 2008 12:00 AM
555
Lookout

This is what she wrote

"Side B believes that though nothing can ever excuse or justify terrorism, it exists in a particular time, place and political context, and to refuse to see that will only aggravate the problem and put more and more people in harm's way. Which is a crime in itself"

"So, on balance, if I had to choose between Side A and Side B, I'd pick Side B."

Can you read the sentence above? It says "Side B believes that though nothing can ever excuse or justify terrorism....".

Are you so stupid that you cannot understand this? Please don't have any children. You are the reason the world is becoming stupider every day.
root2squared
Stamford, United States
Dec 19, 2008 12:00 AM
556
LOOKOUT BUG ME NOT

*** You made my day. I do love the epithet 'chand-ass'. I can't see it myself, but lucky you--can revel in its shine.

R2S:

This LOOKOUT BUG ME NOT is by far the best piece of work I have seen in this fish market.
Chandan K Mahanta
St. Louis, United States
Dec 19, 2008 12:00 AM
557
root2squared
Stamford, United States
Dec 19, 2008 12:00 AM
558
Chandan

Lookout creates the world he wants to see and then twists reality to fit into it.
root2squared
Stamford, United States
Dec 19, 2008 12:00 AM
559

>>This is what she wrote

And she's so credible when she does that while handing out talking points to every Pakistani talking head, right after a Pakistani attack on Indian soil.

Interesting...but, let us know, when you understand what blame-shifting is.

" Please don't have any children."

Did you pass that along to your mother - she could have chosen to take it up her rear-end, in stead of have you as her litter.
lookout bug me not
mumbai, India
Dec 19, 2008 12:00 AM
560
Lookout

You are unable to reply to the thread of conversation. So you divert it by making up your own stuff. You are quite sad really.
root2squared
Stamford, United States
Dec 19, 2008 12:00 AM
561
Lookout

Logic is clearly not your strong point. How can I tell my mother not to have me? I already exist. If I did not, then I wouldn't have to tell her.

Even your insults have no logic. Sad.
root2squared
Stamford, United States
Dec 19, 2008 12:00 AM
562
Rooting Tootin's whining has started - a little bit of bit$$h slapping, and the whine starts...

>> You are unable to reply to the thread of conversation
>> How can I tell my mother

Poor Rootin' Tootin' - thinks that handing out grades for spelling to people, is part of "a thread of conversation"....never thought of that.

>> How can I tell my mother not to have me? I already exist.

Awwww!!! Rootin' Tootin' is actually trying to be clever. Good - its a step up for your kind - but don't forget to tell her to masturbate it out, when feels horny, the next time.
lookout bug me not
mumbai, India
Dec 19, 2008 12:00 AM
563
Lookout

You seem to have a weird fetish for talking about mothers, sex, and masturbation. Maybe it is a projection of some of your repressed feelings coming out in some sick way?
root2squared
Stamford, United States
Dec 19, 2008 12:00 AM
564
Mahanta,
I was arguing "rationally" and "coherently" about A Roy's writing. Yet as all psuedo-liberal fanatics you chose to attack -not my argument, but me.

You are not worth my time, except that you present a classical nutshell case of a liberal facist. In that respect i continue to study you.
varun
Bangalore, India
Dec 19, 2008 12:00 AM
565
[Rooting..Tootin'...
>> You seem to have a weird fetish
>> Maybe it is a projection of some of your repressed feelings ]


Rootin' - hold the liquor in your whine-fest...

In stead of wasting my time, order that Ma of yours, not to fornicate - spanking whore-boy litters like you can be get to be quite a chore.
lookout bug me not
mumbai, India
Dec 19, 2008 12:00 AM
566
Lookout

Your fetishes are quite strong. May I suggest finding porn fetish/incest forums on the Internet ? They will satisfy your sexual frustrations.

You might also be able to cure yourself by picking up an issue of playboy or something like that.

root2squared
Stamford, United States
Dec 19, 2008 12:00 AM
567
Lookout's rants actually provide a perfect example of everything that's wrong with right wing Hindus.

Lookout could not argue my points. He could not attack me effectively the way I did him. So he started insulting my mother.

In a similar manner, people who are unable to catch and punish the real terrorists start attacking innocent people simply because they are associated with them by way of having the same religion.

It is cowardice and a feeling of insecurity to see their own shortcomings and that of their fellow religious loons.
root2squared
Stamford, United States
Dec 19, 2008 12:00 AM
568
Rootin' Tootin' - reveals his internet scouring and reading habits....

R2S >> "May I suggest finding porn fetish/incest forums on the Internet ?"

R2S >> "by picking up an issue of playboy"

Ok - enough about your "incest" reading suggestions - now, run along and stop that Ma of your from producing any more litters like you.
lookout bug me not
mumbai, India
Dec 19, 2008 12:00 AM
569
Lookout

Anyone reading this thread can see who has the fetishes. I had to say "find" because I do not know about these things. Seriously, you need to find a source to feed your sexual fetishes so that they don't come out in the wrong forums like this one.
root2squared
Stamford, United States
Dec 19, 2008 12:00 AM
570
R2S whines >> "Anyone reading this thread can see who has the fetishes"

You mean like asking people on this forum not to breed...

RSS caught in his own lies >> "I had to say "find" because I do not know about these things"

So, let me see - R2S confidently recommends incest sites to people in a forum and even recommends a specific porn supplier - and now the claim is "I dont know about these things".

R2S digging a little more >> "you need to find a source to feed your sexual fetishes so that they don't come out in the wrong forums like this one"

Doesn't seem to have worked for you - so, why recommend it to others.
lookout bug me not
mumbai, India
Dec 19, 2008 12:00 AM
571
Lookout

Asking someone not to have children to prevent passing down stupidity genes is not a fetish. It is an indication of your weird mind that you focused on the sexual aspect of that rather than the main reason which is genetic. Did you know that you can have sex and not have children? It's called a condom.

Also playboy is normal nudity. It does not feature any fetishes of the kind you seem to desire.
root2squared
Stamford, United States
Dec 19, 2008 12:00 AM
572
R2S >> "Asking someone not to have children to prevent passing down stupidity genes"

How magnanimous of R2S (sarc) - recommending Hitlerian "constructive" birth policies for Indians he does "not like" or "agree with"; now, he'll wonder why he's getting slapped around.

R2S >> "Did you know that you can have sex and not have children. Its called a condom"

At least some good news - So, R2S is going to tell its mother to start using condoms with her customers. Thats fine - that'll work too - anything to curtail morons who don't understand the implications of "fraternizing with Hamid Gul".

Just after R2S states ""I dont know about these things" - R2S dribbles out details like..

R2S >> "playboy is normal nudity"

More "incest/porn" site details from R2S awaited - for all you "fetishists" out there - All the while claiming that "I dont know about these things"
lookout bug me not
mumbai, India
Dec 19, 2008 12:00 AM
573
Learned,

>> the Islamic violence can not be stopped, unless the verses are removed or a firm reinterpretation of the verses is made. The tragedy is they are doing neither and are trying to deceive others, for the last 1200 years, that it is the handiwork of a few individuals. The bigger tragedy is they, in all probability, may not do it in the future also. What shall we do?

Let us simplify the problem a bit. Ultimately, a person has to accept the rights/justice of all people and accept a humanist democracy where the state asserts universal human rights, dignity, freedom of speech/religious faith, security etc on behalf of all citizens. As longs as this is genuinely the belief and practice (in the public sphere) of the mainstream, it does not matter much what other personal religious beliefs one has.
Most Muslims living in non-muslim majority nations tend to accept this (and in fact demand such secularism, when they see threats from non-muslim extremist groups). In the TV debates after Mumbai attacks, many muslim celebrities come on TV to declare that they are secular muslims. Most Indian muslims would echo that. But the question is, are the muslims in muslim majority nations demanding the same? Until the majority of muslims world over demand it in all its seriousness and achieve genuine humanist secular democracy in muslim nations, a legitimate concern remains that Islam seeks to use armed jihad to take over states and impose their religious law on the people (if/when they are strong enough to do it) resulting in loss of legitimate rights/freedom (the same reason why muslims legitimately demand secularism in non-muslim nations).

In other words, a genuine/honest/demonstrable separation of religion and the state is the key (or the state defending the rights of all citizens). This has to be fought at the ideological level in debates etc. The millions of muslims who are supporting (even demanding) humanist secular democracy play a key role here. They have a heavy responsibility on their shoulders. Where it surfaces as terrorism, killing innocents, causing communal havoc etc to weaken the nations, then the state, in consultation with the elected representatives, should use the appropriate enforcement agencies to tackle and dismantle the terror outfits.
Kumar
Bangalore, India
Dec 19, 2008 12:00 AM
574
lookout

Hitlerian?

I said please. I will not force you. You can have 20 kids if you want. But it would be best for the world if you had 0.

Lesson in logic
Knowing that incest sites exist does not mean you visit them.
Similarly, trying to understand reasons for terrorism does not mean justifying them.

I've put that as simply as I can. The onus is now on you to try and comprehend what it means. While trying to understand the above it would be helpful if you removed all weird sexual thoughts from your head.
root2squared
Stamford, United States
Dec 20, 2008 12:00 AM
575
R2S >> "You can have 20 kids if you want. But it would be best for the world if you had 0"

Hear ye!!

R2S is ONLY RECOMMENDING that people he "does not agree with" be NOT allowed to have children. He has been "kind enough" not to "force" this on us - hence, his kind is soooo much better than Hitlerian types.


R2S claims >> "trying to understand reasons for terrorism does not mean justifying them"

Lets see R2S is AOK with
- AR fraternizing with Hamid Gul who has been responsible for tens of thousands of Indian deaths

- AR fraternizing with naxalites - who kill in the hundreds every year

All in the name of "understanding the reasons of terrorism"

Yep - first the hitlerian principles of "who can breed and who cannot", then this piece of Lahori Logic.

R2S - keep digging - you're excellent entertainment.
lookout bug me not
mumbai, India
Dec 20, 2008 12:00 AM
576
Lookout

For your homework in my logic lesson, you get an F.

You need to think harder.

root2squared
Stamford, United States
Dec 20, 2008 12:00 AM
577
Arundhati’s endless act to glorify the heinous attack and the attackers:

# “...the gourmet restaurants they loved (ironically, one was called Kandahar), and the staff who served them, a small box on the top left-hand corner in the inner pages of a national newspaper (sponsored by a pizza company I think) said 'Hungry, kya?' (Hungry eh?). It then, with the best of intentions I'm sure, informed its readers that on the international hunger index, India ranked below Sudan and Somalia….”

- Tried to match the act with a popular flair of fight of proletariat. By the way, TV coverage was expected – don’t be so angry. Of course your attempt to prove the whole incident other way round would have much stronger without the live TV coverage.
-
# “Two Indian nationals…have been arrested in connection with the Mumbai attacks. So already the neat accusation against Pakistan is getting a little messy.”

- Well, Mr. Nawaz Sarif has already found the root of your unending search for the truth.

# “Over three days and three nights, we watched in disbelief as a small group of very young men armed with guns and gadgets exposed the powerlessness of the police, the elite National Security Guard and the marine commandos of this supposedly mighty, nuclear-powered nation.”

- Just think one of your loved one was kept as hostage there. Now try those pinching words again!

# “The boy-terrorists' nonchalant willingness to kill—and be killed—mesmerised their international audience. They delivered something different from the usual diet of suicide bombings and missile attacks that people have grown inured to on the news. Here was something new. Die Hard 25.”

- O.K thrilled by new James Bonds, yeah! younger ones…

# “The truth is that we have no idea what to make of them, because we can sense that even before they've died, they've journeyed to another world where we cannot reach them.”

- From the world of poverty and illiteracy to Jannat!

# “What we're experiencing now is blowback, the cumulative result of decades of quick fixes and dirty deeds. The carpet's squelching under our feet.”

- Don't you think without considering entire history and time you just tried to simplify the whole issue flavored by your kin literary work which definitely has the specific hitting zone but does not bear any clue to solution?
dip
Dhaka, Bangladesh
Dec 20, 2008 12:00 AM
578

R2S backpedalling on his incest recommendations>>”Knowing that incest sites exist does not mean…”

R2S – what your desires are, about your children and your mother is your business – don’t make us puke by telling us about it or recommending us to read about it.

Of course, the "please dont spank me" rona-dhona continues...

R2S >> "I said please..."
R2S >> "I've put that as simply as I can"
R2S >> "it would be helpful if you..."

All said and done, R2S finally back to his ultimate “intellectual” weapon – handing out hypothetical grades for spellings, logic or some such – what an argument winner…

R2S - you really seem to have a future with mosque monkeys - tell them about this "grading people" argument winner - they might actually recommend you for a nobel.
lookout bug me not
mumbai, India
Dec 20, 2008 12:00 AM
579
>> Secondly, even if the person who raped a family member is clearly identified, going and raping someone from his family is still loathsome.

Then why did a secular party like SP give ticket to Phoolan Devi and make her an important leader in their party? I don't recall liberals expressing disapprovals then. On the other hand, I do recall some liberals justifying the action.
Al Bundy
San Francisco, United States
Dec 20, 2008 12:00 AM
580
Lookout

Back to your weird sexual fetishes? And I thought with your previous post you had improved.

I've already won the argument, but you are too dense to see it. The only way your tiny brain can comprehend what's going on is by simple letter grade assignments.

Your last post also gets an F-

Think harder.
root2squared
Stamford, United States
Dec 20, 2008 12:00 AM
581
R2S >> “I've already won the argument”

Must be – after all, you’ve already recommended that people you disagree with, not be allowed to breed; all the while doing the intellectually challenging job of handing out “simple letter grades” for spelling. What a winner (sarc)

How can you not have – after your “winning” Lahori logic of why AR is so great, in spite of fraternizing with naxalites, Pakistani islamists who kill Indians in the thousands….

You’ve absolutely won the argument that your mother should have used prophylactics or at least a little more selective in not fornicating with the wrong crowd.

Kudos to you, for getting here.

lookout bug me not
mumbai, India
Dec 20, 2008 12:00 AM
582
Lookout

Sigh! Another 'F' post.

You really need to try harder. I'm sure you can get at least a C if you apply your brain to logic instead of weird sexual fetishes.
root2squared
Stamford, United States
Dec 20, 2008 12:00 AM
583
So, the mumbai attacks were about injustice...

Any injustice has to be justiced...right?


Marad in kerala, where 40+ hindus were killed, by muslims, in a conspiracy known to several muslim league individuals [official probe report] has still not been justiced...

Karunanidhi has withdrawn criminal charges against muslims who had confessed in court, that they willigly entered a temple to destroy the idol and thereby provoke hindus, this is double injustice...there should be justice here tooo....

Taslima nasreen, beaten up in public by Muslim MLAs of andhra pradesh assembly, which arundhati and co have no comments on, need be justiced too.

Laxmanananda saraswati killed by naxlalites for be supposedly propogating brahminism, needs to be justiced...

The family of the hindu guy who ran away with a muslim girl, had to endure rape of a woman of their house by the Muslims girls family men, also needs to be justiced...

Since all above havent been justiced...hindus can start blowing up muslims in the name of injustice..surely logical per arundhati's logic..
kiran
bangalore, India
Dec 20, 2008 12:00 AM
584
Seshadri,

>>>> AP : 'Al Qaeda is a terrorist organization and has done more to hurt communal harmony than 'even' the RSS/VHP parivar'.
>> Note the 'even' above. It implies that hinduists are basically cruel, but some islamists are foolishly doing worse than 'even' the fundamentally despicable hindu infidels.

Do you know how to read at all? I condemned those who are poisoning communal relations, and in this Al Qaeda is definitely even worse than the RSS/VHP goons. I did not crticize either Hindus or Muslims. But for dyed-in-the-wool hindutvadis like yourself RSS and VHP are synonymous with Hindusim!
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 20, 2008 12:00 AM
585
Learned/Thiagan,

>> non muslims do not commit any violence in the first instance.

Only a retard would make such a stupid comment.

>> the person has committed the two rapes/murders because the other man has committed 20 rapes/murders of the family members of the former. It proves that there is no crminality in the act of the former.

Only a retard would make such a stupid comment.

>> the Islamic violence can not be stopped, unless the verses are removed or a firm reinterpretation of the verses is made.

Only a retard would make such a stupid comment.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 20, 2008 12:00 AM
586
Varun:

>I was arguing "rationally" and "coherently" about A Roy's writing

*** Again WHAt was your coherent argument? Since I must have missed it, please, may we see it again?

>Yet as all psuedo-liberal fanatics

*** You know, I am very curious about these pseudo-this, pseudo-that characterizations as made famous by the noted Indian philosopher LK Advani. Since you all see the pseudo-liberals, pseudo-intellectuals everywhere, by definition there must also be REAL liberals and REAL intellectuals. Or are there?
If there are, would you help a fascist like myself finding true liberalism?

I will be pleased to help you study me. Don't be bashful about asking if I can help. Will be more than delighted to help out.
Chandan K Mahanta
St. Louis, United States
Dec 20, 2008 12:00 AM
587
Kiran:>>"So, the mumbai attacks were about injustice...Any injustice has to be justiced...right?"

'daivatam ca-atra pancamam', says the Gita, inplying whatever finally 'happens' does so with divine approval only. Perh the gvt failure to prevent the mumbai attack, despite warnings received, has an element of 'divine justice' in the kind of tragedy it resulted in, in the sense that it brought home the misery to the real super-classes of the country, the political class, the corporate class, the media-class and the security class. Earlier terror-acts, in random blasts in various public places mostly on the streets, entrances/exits to bldgs, even the parliament house or IISc, did not really affect the four superclasses mentioned above, within their high-security rings. Hence, they took it in their stride, mainly offering condolences, compense-doles, promising any action other than POTA, the sonia-ch-raj really happy over the widening hindu-moslem wedge in the country, for the electoral advantage of the congress.

But, the direct-shooting attacks in high-profile places where such super-classes really relax, leaving their security behind at hotel gates, has put the fear of God for the first time, in the minds of these superclasses of the country. Hence, the quick removal of sleepy and sloppy ministers, the proposal for really strong acts even more aggressive than POTA, even some political convergence on it and on the creation of a central investigation agency, besides the strong intervention by international powers also in anger towards pakisthan. If the same 200 deaths, as in gauhaati the prev month, had taken place thro bombs on the beaches and bazaars of mumbai, along with the railway station also, the govts in delhi and mumbai would have taken it as just one more deplorable attack, to be noted down, with appropriate messages of condolence and visits in hospitals, while perverse politics will go along on usual lines.

Perhaps, 11/27, was really the doing of the 11-fold rudras in Siva dominating the 27 star-constellations astrologically determining human experiences on earth, within the galaxy, just as 9/11 was also a significant event brought about by the 9-prone paraaSakti cosmo-mom under the will of the 11-formed Siva-rudra. May His will be done!
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Dec 20, 2008 12:00 AM
588
Chandan,

>> most in Assam live quite amicably with their Muslim brethren.

The sangh's literature and teaching strictly forbid any mention of Hindus and Muslims living peacefully together anywhere in India at any time. The official line is that they were always enemies, that the Muslims always killed Hindus, kidnapped or raped Hindu women, and the Hindus were always oppressed. Such propaganda is essential in order to create sufficient anti-Muslim hatred so as to facilitate the final solution.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 20, 2008 12:00 AM
589
so anwar mia,what rubbish are you talking..wherever there are muslims,there will be problems..in bangladesh hundreds hindu temples were demolished, and nobody says anything,as it is HALAL to kill infidels, it is another thing to take theirmoney..bloddy hipocrates...
george
london, United Kingdom
Dec 20, 2008 12:00 AM
590
Anwar:

>The sangh's literature and teaching strictly forbid any mention of >Hindus and Muslims living peacefully together

*** I don't know what these clowns' problem is, but if they go to Assam, they may find a surprise. Perhaps our friend here,Ghai, who lived in Assam will tell these buffoons what he saw.
Chandan K Mahanta
St. Louis, United States
Dec 20, 2008 12:00 AM
591
faruki

"only a retard would make such a stupid comment".

this applies to you in rich measure.

many hindus have combined their intrnsically
nonviolent nature with western rationalism.

many muslims eg pakistan are inspired by their
religion, and sometimes inflamed to do some
horrific things. western liberalism has been bypassed ,and all the moderateing indian influence via books,films has been rejected.

just watch pakistan tv, and see how drab it is.
look at the street scene- women are not to be seen. only a few go out covered in burqa.

as i have said i am willing to accept the judgement of the international media about you and us. no need for us to give points to each other.
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
Dec 20, 2008 12:00 AM
592
London George:

>.in bangladesh hundreds hindu temples were demolished, and >nobody says anything,

*** What do you know of pre-partition Bengal and how the Hindus who ruled treated their fellow Muslims?

I have been told, by Hindus, that what went around came around. Not that I condone that , much less advocate, but history has a habit of repeating itself. In the absence of a state with the rule of law -- as in B'desh or India, such repetition of history is inevitable. It it therefore of paramount importance that those who know better stand up and be counted on the side of what is right and practice what they preach. A Roy is one of the few people who is doing that.
Chandan K Mahanta
St. Louis, United States
Dec 20, 2008 12:00 AM
593
chanda

you should work to seek independence from india
by useing your vote. i at least dont want anyone
to be forced to stay in india.

india is over populated, if some leave for what ever reasons then thats fair and sensible.

however the problems of assam and bengal will not be solved by leaveing india.

both assames and bongos are lazy, without the can do attitude. that accounts for their problems.all you guys do is bitch and moan.
no industry, nothing on the ground.
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
Dec 20, 2008 12:00 AM
594
Yo Anwar,
Produce any such literature that you mention! On the contrary, if you want to see dirty designs of muslim radicalism, all you need to do is go to Jama Masjid area in Delhi where you can get reams of papers talking trash about India, Hindus and all other religions, or Go to area around AMU in Aligarh and find tons of books in the market openly inciting muslims against their own country, or go around suburban Meerut and hear loudspeakers blaring trash in all hours of the day - Get real!

You are so far from reality that you can't distinguish between your personal fantasy and ground reality.

In fact, I'd be happy if Sangh counters the radical islamic literature by writing some of its own because in current yellow India, in the name of secularism no one wants to touch sensitive issue of "renegade muslims".
Of course the trouble with all this prominence to radicalism by an overwhelming majority of muslims is that the minuscule minority of good muslims in India never dare to or get to voice their opinion even within muslim society and allah forbid if they do say something sensible because within milliseconds they are either shouted down by the majority (+99%) of their "brother" muslims or considered outcasts in their own biradari - and yes, I've personally witnessed that for many years.
I have three muslim friends - all well educated and in good work positions. They have been embarrassed innumerable times when we are together around other muslims (who are unaware that I'm a non-muslim) and these other guys spew venom or make statements against India/Hindus (and I mean dangerous statements that would scare a person about the level of hatred they carry) or talk about napakistan as if that is their home country. Fortunately, for me, my friends are nice but I feel sorry for them when they end up apologizing later or sometimes even defending some things which even they know are morally/factually incorrect. Fortunately, we have been together since grade 6 in the school so we know each other too well but when they are embarrassed I feel bad too.
I think, a lot of what you and other muslims say on this and other forums is based on the fact that either you had very protected life, a sheltered existence or maybe deep down you are also embarrassed in your heart, because your writings are too far from the reality on Indian streets.
Either get the ground reality or admit that you are a desk bound muslim.
Then no one would object to your arguments because dealing with truth is easier for everyone.
This "I don't know anything about jihadi islam but I will defend them anyways because I'm also a muslim" mentality is a big cause of troubles in the muslim world.
We may get islam or its teaching wrong, but we are clear on its intentions, since we see it in daily life - Mumbai is just one example.
That is why, your defending the indefensible always sounds hollow.
escoss
delhi, India
Dec 20, 2008 12:00 AM
595
The central agenda of A Roy's and other pseudo-liberals' discourse is a radical intellectual opposition (not to be confused with CPM). To rile against everything that has been said is the fixed, certain and central theme of all their discourse.

The pseudo-liberals thrive on being different (and in this case, opposite) from any and all voices of a public debate. That is their way of coming across as intellectually elite in a space which unfortunately for them is shared by lesser mortals like Arnab Ghosh (the object of A Roy's ire here).
The "x-factor" that peddles such pseudo-liberals being a guaranteed uniqueness - however devoid of basic logical premises or facts, and consequently immoral and dangerous it may be. Its like the intellectual version of British snobbery ("Poor girl, you drink tea?")

Sometimes where the main discourse is itself undermined, this works not so bad - A Roy and other p-liberals aren't such bitches all the time. But when the facts are indisputable, victims and villains solidly identified and no room for debate on these facts; this "x-factor" of being opposite to only serves in the reverse.

The main services that this article does are

1. Exposes the perversion and intellectual hollowness of the mind behind the big fancy booker winning facade. If anything the self-indulgence of such pseudo-liberals in their fight to be "The Outsider" is too clearly evident.

2.Brings to fore the question that has been sidelined in our quest for literary and intellectual heroes - how much importance should these asinine, logic devoid and therefore dangerous dilettantes that pose as experts be accorded?

3. Raises the question, Is education and more importantly, intellectual appearing education totally over-rated?
varun
Bangalore, India
Dec 20, 2008 12:00 AM
596
i would say that ms roy is sensitive, has integrity and has written of her views on what happened and why. there are many historical wrongs. talk alone does not help and violence provokes violence. what is the solution ?
r s mathoda
chandigarh, India
Dec 20, 2008 12:00 AM
597
"What we're experiencing now is blowback the cumulative result of decades of quick fixes and dirty deeds."
- Arundhati Roy

"To every action there is a reaction"
- Babu Bajrangi
varun
Bangalore, India
Dec 20, 2008 12:00 AM
598
Bangaluru Varun:

>"To every action there is a reaction"
>- Babu Bajrangi


*** Newton't third law applies to inanimate objects, not human beings who can reason.

I guess Babu Bajrangi, like Narender Modi are such inanimate objects too.
Chandan K Mahanta
St. Louis, United States
Dec 20, 2008 12:00 AM
599
>> where you can get reams of papers talking trash about India, Hindus and all other religions, or Go to area around AMU in Aligarh and find tons of books in the market openly inciting muslims against their own country.

Communalists are a curse, whether they are Hindus or Muslims. They have to be fought equally.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 20, 2008 12:00 AM
600
>>Newton't third law applies to inanimate objects, not human beings who can reason.

Alas, our resident pseudo-liberal A. Roy fails to understand this basic truth.
varun
Bangalore, India
Dec 20, 2008 12:00 AM
601
faruki

do you visit india.?

do you see evidence of hate being expressed against muslims. i have not noticed this in delhi-

what i have noticed is that muslims stick togather, but so do sikhs, and i dont know about christians.

compare india with pakistan,bangladesh- i presume you do not find indians to be decent tolerant people!. i have invited scandinavians
to visit my family in delhi. they were most
impressed by the warm welcome - and hospitality.

i know there is lots wrong with india .it will never be the country,that we want it to be,

however takeing a permanent attitude of hate against modi,togadia, bjp,bajrang dal will not help.i presume you have been scarred by events of
2002. it was wrong-but then i have to say it
was the burning of the sabarmathi with the
kar sevaks which did it.

after bombing of the wtc, bush and usa paid back
muslims a thousand fold. many americans still dislike muslims. so do some europeans.

muslims have to take a u turn to survive. there
is no alternative.

so far history has shown that those indians who liberalised and westernised have done well for
themselves. those who did not, have fallen behind.

by sticking to islam, traditions and rituals
most muslims have just opted out of the race.

they have rejected the west, and the religion
and culture of their age old ancestors.

incas, aztecs in latin america still respect their ancient culture. they do not repudate
their past.

in india there are muslims who believe that they are a nation apart.in pakistan history starts after india was invaded a thousand years ago.

such attitudes are nor acceptable.if muslims insist on being a foreign nation they will pay the same price as pakistani muslims are paying
today. they are regarded as pariahs.

i wish one could hear what americans in high govt positions say about pakistani,s
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
Dec 20, 2008 12:00 AM
602
R S MATHODA

> would say that ms roy is sensitive, has integrity and has >written of her views on what happened and why. there are >many historical wrongs. talk alone does not help and violence >provokes violence. what is the solution ?

*** Since most human beings like to LIVE , it is imperative that those who are able to reason, look into WHAT makes people take the path of violence, to risk death and cause death and destruction to others. It is quite universally accepted ( by thinking people that is) that desperation is a result of seeing no hope, of running into dead-ends. For example, know that the violence in Kashmir began in 1985, when Indian govt. foisted a fraudulent ELECTION on the people against their will--and things have never been the same again. Exactly the same thing happened in Assam, and things have never been the same again. There are similar instances involving Punjab., involving Nagas. So, the CONTEXT, the HISTORY cannot be purged from a discourse in attempting to find solutions, as Arundhati eloquently sets forth. Those who attempt to deny these, live in a world of dishonest illusions.

Solutions therefore must be found thru a sincere dialog and thru a political settlement. India's attempts to find solutions thru brute military force or thru bribery has NOT brought any resolution, it has merely escalated the violence and at a faster pace. People who are able to reason, therefore, must speak up,
help build a groundswell of public opinion to goad and encourage the politicians whom they trust to govern, to engage in sincere dialogs to find mutually acceptable political solutions.

That simple.
Chandan K Mahanta
St. Louis, United States
Dec 20, 2008 12:00 AM
603
Chandan

You make a lot of good points. I will add one more cause.

Religion. It is based on faith, which means asking no questions and blindly believing in things. It divides people and makes them arrogant since all of them claim to know what god is and what god wants. It is also used to justify killing people of other religions.
root2squared
Stamford, United States
Dec 20, 2008 12:00 AM
604
Banito/Lalit,

>> i presume you do not find indians to be decent tolerant people.

Why are you so dense? When I condemn communalists and bigots, you think I am condemning Indians!
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 20, 2008 12:00 AM
605
Adolf:

>you should work to seek independence from india
>by useing your vote. i at least dont want anyone
>to be forced to stay in india.

*** My vote does not count. But if Indian intelligentsia and its well wishers had the wherewithal, they would demand from the Indian state to seek a resolution thru either a sincere dialog or thru a free and fair referendum after allowing a period of honest and open debate in which the people can examine the pros and cons of whether to remain under the dominion of India or to seek independence or a form of autonomous existence within India or seek a full-fledged participation as an equal constituent of an India, which could be counted to be a liberal democracy with a rule of law and with functioning institutions of democracy thru which conflicts could be resolved and accountability exacted from the public servants.

Question is if Indians are able to rise to the occasion? So far it has not been so. Their real-estate lust
has prevailed over good sense, never mind what the people who call that real-estate home want. Shades of something they ought to despise--colonialism!

>india is over populated, if some leave for what ever reasons then thats fair and sensible.

*** While the statement itself makes sense, it demonstrates your ignorance of geography. Assam is far less populous than any place else in the subcontinent. It has now become a place for the overflow from Indian and B'deshi ghettos , causing ever more resentments, as if they needed any more.

>however the problems of assam and bengal will not be solved by leaveing india.

*** Perhaps you can explain that to those who don't want any part of India. Come to think of it, I would love to learn why myself, should you be kind enough to explain.

>both assames and bongos are lazy, without the can do attitude. that accounts for their >problems.all you guys do is bitch and moan no industry, nothing on the ground.

*** In Bengali and in Assamese there is an ancient proverb which roughly translates to: " Bites like a snake, yet tries to treat like a healer" and is usually directed to slimy, dishonest people who tries to have it both ways. Need I say anything more?
Chandan K Mahanta
St. Louis, United States
Dec 20, 2008 12:00 AM
606
>>”Newton't third law applies to inanimate objects, not human beings who can reason”.

There are three basic properties [guNas] of nature, as per Gita: tamas, rajas and satva: inertia, action and balance, seen as Newton’s three laws of motion, applicable to inanimate matter, apara-prakriti. But, along with matter as hydrogen atoms, antimatter [+ve plus –ve = zero, poorNa], paraa-Sakti, holy spirit, is also released, with components cid, cetana and praaNa, being the tamas, rajas and satva components thereof. When some paraa and aparaa operate jointly over some period, ‘lives’ come into existence, and ‘die’ when the spirit associated separates off; but continue as souls of spirit, to later combine with other matter to have successive lives, until evolution to salvation.

Even inert matter has cid in it; plants have matter, basic, non-soul cid and praana, as in marines, animals in herds, birds in flocks, humans in the ‘jana’ state also; humans develop permanent souls after reaching the ‘nara’ state, of god-cognition, for eventual full entunement with ‘narrayaNa’ to attain the Siva state of salvation, seeing oneself as ‘Sivo-aham’ absolute only.

Humans have body, mind and intellect, representing inertia, action and balance. Hence, humans, who can do reasoning, are able to do so only bec they have the spiritual component corresponding to the third law of motion, thinking leads to enduring ‘concepts’ in reaction to perceptions, as in sc and techno, in their intellects [buddhis]; they can also derive further ‘enlghtenments’, codana, from paro-rajas, saraswati, Sophia, the cetanaa resident as the sister of Siva, in the abslute. When humans evolve to be rid of all physical matter, praana, and ego, with only caitanya bodies, they become eternal divines, as angels in the humble service of the absolute, without need for rebirths, other than by God’s will, as saints and seers.. But, when some, among even such, are unable to be fully rid of ego, they operate as demons in anti-divine operations, with rebirths to wash off the ego-remnant in them.

Some foolish philo from an old fool.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Dec 20, 2008 12:00 AM
607
Learned/Thiagan,

>>>> "Only a retard would make such a stupid comment."
>> Only a mentally unbalanced will make a series of such remarks.

I cannot imagine how a person with normal intelligence would even think of making the three comments that you had made. I have shown you so many times how ignorant and ill-informed you are. But even in areas of simple logic and common sense you show yourself to be utterly deficient.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 20, 2008 12:00 AM
608
Seshadri,

>> humans, who can do reasoning, are able to do so only bec they have the spiritual component.

Is that why your reasoning is so poor?
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 20, 2008 12:00 AM
609
R2S


>Religion. It is based on faith, which means asking no questions and blindly believing in things. It >divides people and makes them arrogant since all of them claim to know what god is and what god >wants. It is also used to justify killing people of other religions.


**** You are right. I will go a step farther: Religious dogmas are actually is the worst form of arrogance. They leave no room for doubt, of examining the merits of those dogmas, leading the faithful to commit the worst forms of crimes against humanity, under an aura of self-righteousness.
Chandan K Mahanta
St. Louis, United States
Dec 20, 2008 12:00 AM
610
Look Out BMN
>The clashes that broke out on October 3 between Bodos and >immigrant Muslim settlers in Northern Assam’s Udalguri and >Darrang districts led to the displacement of over two lakh >people.

*** That damned English language problem again here I see.

The report speaks of IMMIGRANT muslims, B'deshi migrants, infiltrating into Assam to take over land and livelihoods of indigenous populations. But of course you won't know the diff. between new immigrant land grabbers and indigenous muslims
who have over centuries lived amicably with others around them.
Chandan K Mahanta
St. Louis, United States
Dec 20, 2008 12:00 AM
611
Shesadri:

>Hence, humans, who can do reasoning, are able to do so only bec they have the spiritual component >corresponding to the third law of motion, thinking leads to enduring ‘concepts’ in reaction to >perceptions, as in sc and techno, in their intellects [buddhis]---


*** Voodoo science!

The ancients were bright people. They were creative, thoughtful, intelligent.

But today's Indians who attempt to spin the wisdom of the ancients to fit their own little , narrow minded
and bigoted preoccupations are truly a pathetic lot.

I wonder what happened to the genes of the illustrious ancients to produce the despicable, effete lot of today.
Chandan K Mahanta
St. Louis, United States
Dec 20, 2008 12:00 AM
612
"Some foolish philo from an old fool. "

Well, you finally got something right.
root2squared
Stamford, United States
Dec 20, 2008 12:00 AM
613
[Chand-ass >> *** That damned English language problem again here I see.

The report speaks of IMMIGRANT muslims, B'deshi migrants, infiltrating into Assam to take over land and livelihoods of indigenous populations.]

Chand-ass – nice try – with your superior English and magic potion of credibility – you should have clarified, that according to you, Muslims only meant indigenous Muslims and not Bangladeshis.

Why try and shift the goal post now, that you’ve been caught without any evidence to backup your claim about "most Assamese".
lookout bug me not
mumbai, India
Dec 20, 2008 12:00 AM
614
With people like Arundhati Roy, we do not need a Pakistan with its terrorist supporters there bending backwards to justify their sickness and brutalities on the world. We have one in her here, to welcome them with open arms to justify more such killings. Looks like Arundhati Roy is too tired of the freedom in India which she uses to express her spineless defense to comfort mass murderers. Maybe she should move to Pakistan and find the heaven she is searching for amidst the honor killings and acid maiming of women, and among the pigs she so admires. It will be good riddance for India as we can live very well with fewer ones like her.
Non Fanatic
London, United Kingdom
Dec 20, 2008 12:00 AM
615
>>”Do you know how to read at all? I condemned those who are poisoning communal relations, and in this Al Qaeda is definitely even worse than the RSS/VHP goons”

Actually, my comment is only bec I read “even worse than the RSS/VHP goons’ as your description of the Al quida evil. While pretentively despising osama, you are despising sudarshan also, by courtesy, as the real reference standard for evil, to please your Saudi paymasters, perhaps.

>>” I did not crticize either Hindus or Muslims. But for dyed-in-the-wool hindutvadis like yourself RSS and VHP are synonymous with Hindusim!”

Right, for you, only the 'jihadist terrorists' are evil, they have no ‘religion’, hence non-mslem; but, those who finance them, encourage them, watch their actions with glee, waiting for umma, are the real moslems, angelic devotees of all-mercy Allah!.

Similarly, sanghis working for the survival of Hinduism, in its land of origin, are non-hindus, only goons; only the psuedo-secular casteist, atheist, crypto-chr anti-hindus, [like the higher-educ[?] minister of TN who tells the Anna Univ in convoc that the rama-sethu was built only by a squirrel [!] and hence no architectural human heritage], are the only real ‘hindus’ to be respected and assisted to fully wipe out Hinduism from india, to make way for umma/Christendom duality to settle their claims, eventually, on the prospective huttingtonian war.

Well, bhaarata varsha, as also europe [aarya-paaScima] has seen the antics of asurabeeejas, over the ten millennia of its perceived pre-history, rise up only to be wiped off by the divine will, paritraaNaaya saadhoonaam, vinaaSaaya ca dushkritaam, again and again! Exit of evil is built into it, itself.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Dec 20, 2008 12:00 AM
616
Non-Fanatic???

That's hilarious. It's almost like you knew your comments would cause people to view you as a fanatic, so you called yourself non-fanatic.

I guess sub-consciously you know you are one. Your comments certainly are all nonsense.
root2squared
Stamford, United States
Dec 20, 2008 12:00 AM
617
Chandan:>>" *** Voodoo science!'"

Well, I thought, in these bad days for the earth, duryodhan and duhSaasan, killed by bheema in kurukshetra, have been reborn as trouble-makers osama and faruki, to be taken care of by bheema also reborn as Obama!. But, I did not know that ChanDa who was killed, along with brother MunDa, long ago by durga as Kaalee, has also been reborn as ChanDan again. Could you tell where your dear brother MunDan has been born now! Good wishes to you for merry christmas and happy new year!.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Dec 20, 2008 12:00 AM
618
CKM:>>"Religious dogmas are actually is the worst form of arrogance".

Right. India's praNava-vidyaa, called 'perennial philosophy' by Aldous Huxley, is the only thelogy, free of any dogmatic dictates. The conclusions in indic faiths have been only sustained, not belied, by all sc-tech developments, over centuries, from darvinian evolution to dalton's atomics to maxwell's electromagnetics to einsteinian relativity to chandrasekhar's fusion in stars.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Dec 20, 2008 12:00 AM
619
>>"Is that why your reasoning is so poor?"

Yes, for asura-beeja jana-type humans, like faruki, in whom the buddhi or intellect, the 'antar-lakshya yantra', insight-mechanism, is somewhat inadequately developed. Some vegetarianism in food habits might be helpful.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Dec 20, 2008 12:00 AM
620

Seshadri,

>> While pretentively despising osama, you are despising sudarshan also.

The question was who poisons community relations. So of course I have to include the RSS and VHP, and also you.

>> for you, only the 'jihadist terrorists' are evil, they have no ‘religion’, hence non-mslem; but, those who finance them, encourage them, watch their actions with glee, waiting for umma, are the real moslems, angelic devotees of all-mercy Allah!.

When did I praise them? You are such a shameless liar!

>> sanghis working for the survival of Hinduism.

Hinduism has survived for over 4,000 years without the help of Hindu jihadis like the sanghis. Asurabeejas like you with poor spiritual development and poor reasoning easily fall prey to such hateful doctrines. The parivar probably will prove destructive to true Hinduism.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 20, 2008 12:00 AM
621
>>:"Hinduism has survived for over 4,000 years"

For over ten millennia and more, by grace of God, despite oppo from your asura-beeja forefathers.

>>" The parivar probably will prove destructive to true Hinduism"

Your petro-dollars may even be able to purchase the parivarites also, to make them also destructive on hinduism for money. But, then, God will then destroy them also, along with you. When you reach your heaven of virgins, you can meet aurangazeb there; he will tell you how his efforts to destroy hinduism in india were countered by God by strengthening Shivaji among the marathas and the sikhs under Khalsa, later on. Shameless lying is what you do, when you claim to be more sympathetic to hinduism than sangh-seshadri and myself.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Dec 20, 2008 12:00 AM
622
Kashmiris Weary of Violence Fight Back by Voting : The New York Times report.


http://www.nytimes.com/.../20kashmir.html?_r=1&hp

Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 20, 2008 12:00 AM
623
Seshadri,

>> For over ten millennia and more, by grace of God.

Good! But now with asurabeejas like you and hate organizations like the RSS and VHP, it faces greater dangers than ever before.

>> you claim to be more sympathetic to hinduism than sangh-seshadri and myself.

It is not a question of sympathy. It is a question of your small mindedness and hatefulness, qualities not associated with true Hinduism.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 20, 2008 12:00 AM
624
Congratulations Arundhati for such a brave article. the best article I have read in recent time. You are brave to put your thought into words without any prejudice. great work..keep it up.
waris
KOTA, India
Dec 20, 2008 12:00 AM
625
Learned/Thiagan,

>> How do you know they accept a secular democracy?

We do know that you are dead set against secularism nor democracy. You are just a pea-brained fascist.

>> Why a uniform civil code in India could not be passed.

This has nothing to do with either secularism or democracy. The subject has been discussed extensively in this forum over the past three years and will I am sure be discussed again. Your knowledge of the subject is zero. The rest of your post is a stupid and hate-filled rant typical of you.

>> Islam and democracy is inconsistent.

Idiot, after all the material I gave you just a couple of days ago! Your closed mind does not seem to imbibe anything!

>> The religion is the beard; it will come first and the others will follow.

You are a moron and no one follows you.

>> you could not cite a single reference, a single quote or even single piece of history in your favour.

Your three arguments were so patently idiotic and laughable that to adduce any arguments to debunk them would be a redundancy.

>> Islam draws its sustenance from violence and hatred.

You come out of your gutter to this forum to spew your daily quota of anti-Muslim hate material everyday, but you have become repetitious, jaded and boring. You are truly disgusting.

Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 20, 2008 12:00 AM
626
chand

from your harangues i realise that you want the indian peoples outside assam to help you leave india.

you claim that your vote does not count. so let there be an informal poll to decide how many assamese want to leave india.

frankly do people in mumbai, delhi, ahmedabad
or chennai give 2 red cents what happens to youi. if you want to separate, most indians will not give a damn.

you guys should be free to do what you want.
india should not act as the russian empire.

let me say your leaveing would be of no loss to india. for assamese it would mean a change of
passport from indian to assamese.
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
Dec 20, 2008 12:00 AM
627
faruki

you have to insult everyone.

that shows your ugly nature.

however about 40 percent hindus support the bjp.
many more support modi. lots of business people
admire him.

you happen to have a grudge against hindu nationalists- you can not get away from it.

however this grudge will lead you no where.you
can keep on abuseing modi, but he will presumably
get reelected. likewise the west will remain neutral to hostile against most muslim countries.

you pay little attention to affairs of pakistani,s who are closest to you. your bile is
concentrated against india, and its tiresome to read you.

we will never accept your views on the bjp.rss.

for a change look at pakistan. the people there are staunch muslims. indian muslims would follow their example if they had the chance. so look
at the fire in your own house, and stop bothering
about the imperfections of the bjp etc.

despite many provocations most hindus,though at times tired of the muslim fanatics, have not espoused a policy of a hindu country.

most pakistani,s did in 1947, and many would also today,if they had the opportunity.eg kashmir, azamgarh.

not just in india.also all over europe, muslims have formed muslim parliaments, muslim areas,
where the writ of the state does not run.

if you look at the faults of many muslim communities they are like a dense forest. the fault of other communities in comparison is like that of a clump of a few trees.
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
Dec 20, 2008 12:00 AM
628
faruki

many hindus share the views of bjp, and are not
opponents of rss. so you are opposed to lots of indians.

on the other hand most muslims support orthodox
islam .
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
Dec 20, 2008 12:00 AM
629
>> How do you know they accept a secular democracy? Why a uniform civil code in India could not be passed ..

If SRK comes on TV and says that he supports secularism (and that he is also a muslim), there is no reason to take the path of questioning it. Instead, I take the opposite path of seeking further support in the same direction he is speaking out. There are millions of muslims who would say what SRK is saying. So instead of questioning and nit-picking, I say, "Thank you for your support/demand for humanist, secular democracy. Please join in the fight against terrorism, communalism, theocracy etc and support values of freedom, human rights, secularism. Please speak up with a loud voice, demonstrate, protest, conduct rallies etc for the same principles/values all over the world including Muslim nations and condemn the violation of these values wherever it occurs. Support the right/freedom of people like Salman Rushdie and Taslima Nasreen".

>> Islam is religion, law, economics, banking, social restrictions, military and even sex; all rolled into one.

Yes. The millions of muslims who say that they support secular democracy will have to deal with it. Other religions have dealt with it in various ways. They have to work with a sense of urgency. They have to write, protest, demonstrate and be even willing to die for reform/change. As things stand today, the process is frustratingly slow (if at all). When will we see demonstrations and rallies demanding the right/freedom of say a Salman Rushdie to speak/write? Or criticizing the muslim nations for not having genuine secular democracy? Hope we will see such things. That is the question for SRK and other celebrities and millions of Muslims who support/demand secularism and freedom.
Kumar
Bangalore, India
Dec 20, 2008 12:00 AM
630
kumar

most of the secular muslims are married to hindus. srk, amir khan. fareed zakaria to an
american. rusdie has never had a muslim wife.
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
Dec 20, 2008 12:00 AM
631
>> How many reformers Islam has produced, like Raja Ram Mohan Roy, Gandhiji etc. None

One of the reasons I think is that Islam covers all aspects like theology, politics, law, military, business, social behavior/customs etc. It looks like it will either stand all together or fall all together. It seems like a all or nothing. In Christianity, though the church had a strangle hold in Europe the middle ages, once there is information explosion (with the printing press etc) all that the reformers did was to point to the actual teachings. What followed was a rush of free-thinkers and philosophers of various stripes, critics of religion, defenders of religion etc all battling out in the market place of ideas. Hinduism has an inherently built in diversity of philosophical thought. Even those who practiced untouchability etc as part of a prevailing culture opened up to better sense in course of time. In case of Islam, all the aspects of religion, politics, warfare, economics, law etc are all ingrained in the Quran and the life of Muhammad himself. If you puncture even a single aspect of it, you are puncturing the Quran and Muhammad, meaning essentially the entire edifice will come down like a punctured tyre. Can Islam stand apart from its doctrine of politics, law, warfare, economics etc? That is the challenge. Anything that you touch, it is as if the entire structure of Islam falls down (or so it seems as of now). But there should be people willing to bite the bullet and take on what they see as wrong. And we should see scores of them. Muslims from a place like India who support secularism would be a good starting point.

>> confront Islam now; if not, we will not be there later to confront it.

If by that, you mean confronting theologically, doctrinally in debates and challenging it socially/politically etc without resort to violence/riots, I am all for it. And I see the moderate/secular Muslims who support secular democracy in our country to be on the same side and their participation is crucial. When SRK was interviewed where he said that he supports secularism, the anchor should have asked if he also supports such secularism (as in India) in all Muslim nations and if he is willing to agitate/fight for such ideas/values to be the mainstream values of Muslim society in general all over the world.
Kumar
Bangalore, India
Dec 20, 2008 12:00 AM
632
I think she is a genuine stupid writer. To link Kashmir to the Mumbai terror attacks is way to far fetched. It is very clear that all the terror attacks in the last 1 year or so had nothing that said "Give us Kashmir and we will stop" It was a plain terror attack aimed at India seen as a part of the so called Wester zionists as one Pak scribe puts it on a video widely out on YouTube. It had no Kashmir foot prints and infact if statistics are anything to go by, the Kashmir problem is slowly waning out with a pan India problem and that is not driven by Kashmir. If it were Kashmir, Jews and foreigners would not be targeted.

To link 4-5 different issues into one is something fiction writers are good at and Arundati is no exception.
Kanishka Agiwal
Bangalore, India
Dec 20, 2008 12:00 AM
633
To AK Ghai, Part I



>Mahanta ,

>The Marwari Traders plus Assamese Govt Officers plus ULFA + Sulfa all are deeply involved together >or individually in pocketing the funds earmarked for Developement under tutelage of Assamia >Politicians.

>Why blame one group ? By the way the people of Assam like rest of the Indias are equally reponsible >for electing corrupt Politicians time and again .


**** You are exactly right. So where is the Indian intelligentsia fixing the broken, dysfunctional desi-demokrasy ? It is not new. They have been spouting about it for decades on end. But has there been any change?

India CANNOT change, because of its fractiousness, because of the ignorance of the intelligentsia about how a democracy is supposed to function, because of their preoccupation with Hinduttwa/Islam/Conversion and other religious sounding hang-ups; while religion actually being little more than perfunctory performance of rituals--a show-- and trading/bribery with the gods, devoid of an intellectual foundation. And desi-demokrasy is little more than yet another set of rituals of 'elekshuns' to wave at the world, while the state of the state is rotten to the core.

The only hope remain therefore is for smaller progressive entities , who are not bound to the rotten Indian cultural and religious bondage, to chart their own course by thoroughly restructuring their governance.

Chandan K Mahanta
St. Louis, United States
Dec 20, 2008 12:00 AM
634

To AK Ghai, Part 2


>Mahanta AGP Cheif Minister and his team was fired with zeal to clean the mess created years of >Congress Rule. Within a few months the AGP played into hands of the businessmen.

*** And have you ever attempted to find out WHY it failed? It failed because the students who led the movement were just as ignorant of what they were trying to accomplish and HOW they were going to accomplish it. As soon as they took power, they fell smack-dab -back into the same cesspool of dysfunctional-desi-demokrasy and got absorbed by it.

And without a complete SYSTEMIC overhaul, it will continue to remain so, as we have seen over and over again with change of govts., be it at Delhi or be it at the state capitals.



>Mr Mahnta you have said that your two cousins were killed .I am sorry and I know many families in >Assam whose brothers were involved with ULFA but they themseves were not .

**** They were sons of my cousins. I mentioned the point just to point to the fact that almost everyone in Assam has been affected by what has been going on, some directly, while others only indirectly.


>They do send their wards to USA to save them from joining ULFA or becoming victims of State .I met >many such youngmen .I felt really sad for those innocent young men whose future was wrecked in >India and had to leave country .

**** Obviously you were exposed to a tiny, elite segment of Assam. Few Assamese have the ability to send their children away to the USA. Those who do, are usually high govt. officials, politicians, police officials and the like, or children of a handful of professionals . Few of these people know or care about the lot of their kin in the hinterland -- just like elsewhere in the sub-continent, who, out of desperation took to arms 25 years back, and continue to do so.

Chandan K Mahanta
St. Louis, United States
Dec 20, 2008 12:00 AM
635
To AK Ghai, Part 3


>You are free to exhale your anger here but if really want to change Assam go (not advisable )and try >for the upliftment of the Assamese society.

**** Obviously you too are ignorant of the impediments to such upliftment. No one person can uplift
the lot of a society. It can happen only when a great majority of individuals that make up the society improve their own lots. For that you need a functioning govt. , which must create the environment for individual enterprise, conflict resolution, provide public infrastructure /education/health/ sanitation/water supply and the like; none of which exists under Indian governance; not even its most affluent regions or enclaves.



>However I must confess that when I was sent with a heavy doze of advises , do/don'ts etc from my well >wishers.I was a terrified and troubled soul when I landed in Assam .Every next person was under my >secrutiny being a suspeted ULFA person.

**** Your well-wishers and advisers; would you consider them educated, informed ranks of a modern India? And if you do, how good were their advices to you? Were they useful, realistic, constructive? If NOT, what was WRONG you think?

And were your advisers unique or would they have represen
Chandan K Mahanta
St. Louis, United States
Dec 20, 2008 12:00 AM
636
To AK Ghai, Part 3


>You are free to exhale your anger here but if really want to change Assam go (not advisable )and try >for the upliftment of the Assamese society.

**** Obviously you too are ignorant of the impediments to such upliftment. No one person can uplift
the lot of a society. It can happen only when a great majority of individuals that make up the society improve their own lots. For that you need a functioning govt. , which must create the environment for individual enterprise, conflict resolution, provide public infrastructure /education/health/ sanitation/water supply and the like; none of which exists under Indian governance; not even its most affluent regions or enclaves.



>However I must confess that when I was sent with a heavy doze of advises , do/don'ts etc from my well >wishers.I was a terrified and troubled soul when I landed in Assam .Every next person was under my >secrutiny being a suspeted ULFA person.

**** Your well-wishers and advisers; would you consider them educated, informed ranks of a modern India? And if you do, how good were their advices to you? Were they useful, realistic, constructive? If NOT, what was WRONG you think?

And were your advisers unique or would they have represen
Chandan K Mahanta
St. Louis, United States
Dec 20, 2008 12:00 AM
637
To AK Ghai, Part 3


>You are free to exhale your anger here but if really want to change Assam go (not advisable )and try >for the upliftment of the Assamese society.

**** Obviously you too are ignorant of the impediments to such upliftment. No one person can uplift
the lot of a society. It can happen only when a great majority of individuals that make up the society improve their own lots. For that you need a functioning govt. , which must create the environment for individual enterprise, conflict resolution, provide public infrastructure /education/health/ sanitation/water supply and the like; none of which exists under Indian governance; not even its most affluent regions or enclaves.



>However I must confess that when I was sent with a heavy doze of advises , do/don'ts etc from my well >wishers.I was a terrified and troubled soul when I landed in Assam .Every next person was under my >secrutiny being a suspeted ULFA person.

**** Your well-wishers and advisers; would you consider them educated, informed ranks of a modern India? And if you do, how good were their advices to you? Were they useful, realistic, constructive? If NOT, what was WRONG you think?

And were your advisers unique or would they have represented the norm of what you would have received, if you had sought them elsewhere in India?
Chandan K Mahanta
St. Louis, United States
Dec 20, 2008 12:00 AM
638
To AK Ghai, Part 4


>However with in a span of two days I started loving Assameses .They are down to earth,loving ,caring >and God fearing but highly emotional persons.

**** I am surprised! I was afraid, you would not have returned alive :-; ! Were you too?

My big question is: WHAT made them that EMOTIONAL? Did they share that with you? Would share it with us? And what do you make of it? From the sounds of it, you don't give it much weight--as something without substance. If so, would you explain why ?



>Literature and Asamia Languages are deeply seeped >in ancient values and Religeon.

**** While it is always helpful for a people to have a tradition of intellectual achievements., I consider it far more important to have a present culture of such. Did you see a culture of REAL intellectual pursuits? How is it similar or different from your own culture or elsewhere in India?

**** Also, how have ANCIENT religious mores helped people in the subcontinent in betterment of their lives in their societies today? Have they at all? If they had ANY impact, why is the subcontinent so rife with CORRUPTION for example? WHY is it so devoid of the most rudimentary of ETHICS in their PUBLIC lives? I highlighted public intentionally-for obvious reasons.

Chandan K Mahanta
St. Louis, United States
Dec 20, 2008 12:00 AM
639
To AK Ghai, Part 5

>Delhi could have brouht ULFA boys into maistram easily .

**** While this is true,

>Delhi failed as it has to built up its Vote Bank >by patronisng Migration of Bangladeshies.Alredy >demography in Assam has started eroding Assamesi >Hindus majority .


**** The HOW of it as you see above is profoundly FAULTY. While Assamese fears of being overrun by B'deshis is real, what created ULFA really is the dysfunction and failure of the state-- made in the image of and with the powers of the Indian state, in every conceivable sphere. When the first discontents spilt out on to the street, the govt. decided to suppress with bullets, instead of responding to the needs of the people. The very first to be gunned down by Indian paramilitary forces in a peaceful demonstration was the youngest son of the poorest of the families of MY village. And the rest is history.

Arundhati's point about JUSTICE, therefore, is very real and those who try to dismiss it, does it at their own peril!
Chandan K Mahanta
St. Louis, United States
Dec 20, 2008 12:00 AM
640
To AK Ghai, Part 6

>And ULFA has abondned its core plank of infiltration .Why ? You know very well.

*** I appreciated your attempt to engage in a serious discourse, thus far.

Here you have fallen victim to your own anti-Muslim paranoia, by attempting to devalue ULFA as having lost its honor by supposedly taking shelter in B'desh instead of undertaking a vigilante movement against B'deshi migrants, ethnic-cleansing and such; while you turn a blind eye to the responsibilities of the Indian state for border protection, apprehension of illegal migrants, of determination of status in a fair and trustworthy court of law, maintaining a neighborly and friendly discourse and relationship with B'desh to return those who entered illegally and so forth.

That is the tragedy of India. And Assam, ought not to buy into any of that. I try to explain that to my fellow Assamese when and where I can. But in this forum, I doubt that more than two or three people will buy that.


Chandan K Mahanta
St. Louis, United States
Dec 20, 2008 12:00 AM
641
“One sign says 'Justice', the other 'Civil War'. There's no third sign and there's no going back. Choose.” -A. Roy

- Respect all religion
- Pray for the peace of every human being’s life in the world
- Believe in World Brotherhood

- YES, JUSTICE – WE NEED!!! -
dip
Dhaka, Bangladesh
Dec 20, 2008 12:00 AM
642
>The report speaks of IMMIGRANT muslims, B'deshi migrants, infiltrating into Assam to take >over land and livelihoods of indigenous populations.]

>Chand-ass – nice try – with your superior English and magic potion of credibility – you should >have clarified, that according to you, Muslims only meant indigenous Muslims and not >Bangladeshis.

>Why try and shift the goal post now, that you’ve been caught without any evidence to backup >your claim about "most Assamese".



LOBMN

Could you read and understand what I wrote below?



>*** That may be scary to Hindians, but most in Assam live quite amicably with their Muslim brethren. >There are exceptions -- from the usual quarters obviously. And the unchecked flow across the borders >guarded by those selfless, fearsome, patriotic Indian BSF personnel is a problem.



**** If you still don't get it, the EXCEPTIONS are the newcomers -- those who have poured into into Assam, not just from B'desh, but from India as well, who have ignited these violent episodes of clashes
among the indigenous and the newcomers.


But I can see, how your prejudices make you blind to seeing anything but Muslim paranoia as legitimate but respectable, never mind if they are indigenous or immigrant land-grabbers.
Chandan K Mahanta
St. Louis, United States
Dec 20, 2008 12:00 AM
643
Adolf:



>from your harangues i realise that you want the indian peoples outside assam to help you leave india.

**** I want thinking Indians to assert themselves in changing their dysfunctional governance, which gave rise to Assamese disaffections. Failing that they ought to prevail upon their government from holding on to with brutal military force those who don't want any part of them. Isn't that the honorable thing to do?


>you claim that your vote does not count. so let there be an informal poll to decide how many assamese >want to leave india.

**** If YOUR expressed wishes, dishonest as they are, were to be given any weight by desi-realestate -lust. we might have not seen the profoundly violence and loss of lives that has engulfed the subcontinent over the last quarter century.


>frankly do people in mumbai, delhi, ahmedabad or chennai give 2 red cents what happens to youi. if >you want to separate, most indians will not give a damn.

**** That is as false bravado as it comes. It is useful only as a comeback in a debate, when there is little substance to offer.

>you guys should be free to do what you want. india should not act as the russian empire.

>let me say your leaveing would be of no loss to india. for assamese it would mean a change of
>passport from indian to assamese.

*** Heh -heh! Go tell that to ONGC, to Oil India, to Tata Tea, to Birla tea and to all those Indian business houses that have run one of three most prosperous economic zones at independence to one of the last.

Chandan K Mahanta
St. Louis, United States
Dec 20, 2008 12:00 AM
644
Waris of KOTA:

Well said!

And don't give in to the little minds that spread venom as here in this forum, Take them on, put them in their place!
Chandan K Mahanta
St. Louis, United States
Dec 20, 2008 12:00 AM
645
chanda

take a piece of paper and find out what you give to india, and what you get.

let this be your programme- if you feel you are being done it, write to papers, call a meeting in a few colleges.

come back when you have done this.debate it in the asian society. ask roy and her assopciates to out across your view point.

bengal, and other states should do this excercise. it will be very useful in shapeing future policy.
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
Dec 20, 2008 12:00 AM
646
chandan

i understand your predictament.

you are hopelessly and weak people,who can not fight the bangladeshi illegal immigrants.

you are unable to do well despite haveing some natural resources.

in your frustration you attack the indian govt,who are equally incompetent.

thats the case in a nut shell.

i suggest you guys be free to leave india, and pull the chesnuts out of the fire yourselves.

you must have a job in usa. and i know what people must be thinking of you.
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
Dec 21, 2008 12:00 AM
647

Hi Adolf:


>i understand your predictament.

>you are hopelessly and weak people,who can not fight the bangladeshi illegal immigrants.


*** Anyone who sees such migration of people across artificial boundaries arbitrarily drawn by people as something that could be stemmed by military might, shows one's intellectual depth; more precisely the utter lack of it.


>you are unable to do well despite haveing some natural resources.

*** It is an argument equivalent to that of the thief who accuses the homeowner for not securing the doors well enough for enabling him to rob and pillage. It is a display of umitigated gall, chutzpah, if you will.

>in your frustration you attack the indian govt,

*** Attack huh? I see the language problem has afflicted you too.

>---who are equally incompetent.

*** Yeah, really? How could that be? And how is the DDD and their defenders dealing with it?


>thats the case in a nut shell.

*** You dropped the 's with nut. It should have been "--in a NUT's shell "


>i suggest you guys be free to leave india, and pull the chesnuts out of the fire yourselves.

*** That would be good, if Indian real-estate lust somehow would abate and Indians' concept of COUNTRY begins to INCLUDE not just the landownership but the people who call the land their home as well.

>you must have a job in usa.

*** Actually I am a lazy Assamese. I work to live and not live to work.

> and i know what people must be thinking of you.

*** I am impressed !
Chandan K Mahanta
St. Louis, United States
Dec 21, 2008 12:00 AM
648
>take a piece of paper and find out what you give to india, and what you get.

**** Where does India get the goods to give out to whomever they do? If you could tell me that, I might consider the suggestion. Besides, WHO gave Dilli the right to be the mai-baap of everyone? It smacks of an effete Bollywood movie plot, in which the Big Daddy exercises complete control, not only on his children, but also of the neighbors', never letting them learn how to be grown-ups in a challenging world with limited resources, forever remaining forced to live their lives on the handouts of the mai-baap.

Sure sounds like the model of a medieval feudal estate than a modern, pluralistic, democratic state.

Chandan K Mahanta
St. Louis, United States
Dec 21, 2008 12:00 AM
649
chanda

all this accounting is beyond your ke,

ask some professor in a assamese university to
find out. or at least the cash given to assam govt by delhi must be easily known,

its absurd for you to make charges,when you admit you dont know.
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
Dec 21, 2008 12:00 AM
650
Adolf:

>all this accounting is beyond your ke,>ask some professor in a >assamese university to find out. or at least the cash given to >assam govt by delhi must be easily known,

*** I can get anything I need from people who have a complete accounting of it. But I was asking you about the CONCEPT, if you knew HOW the Center gets its resources to divvy up among the states. Obviously you don't know, gfor if you did you would NOT have made the recommendation you did.

Get it?

Chandan K Mahanta
St. Louis, United States
Dec 21, 2008 12:00 AM
651
Learned/Thiagan,

>> Can you not write something sensible other than showering abuses.

Write sensible answers to your despicable hate prachar? All your posts are nothing but spewing of your vile venom. You are a sick man. See a doctor.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 21, 2008 12:00 AM
652
chanda

states in india must be independent as far as possible.

the rich ones should contribute to pool,and this could provide help to the poorer ones.

everyone to knoe what they contribute and what they get,

this system is followed in the eu.
i think it could be followed in india as well.
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
Dec 21, 2008 12:00 AM
653
The Learned/

“Believe in World Brotherhood”
……………………………………
There is no difference in thoughts. You just misunderstood my post.
dip
Dhaka, Bangladesh
Dec 21, 2008 12:00 AM
654
Learned/Thiagan,

>> Are you a bigger historian than Churchill? Even he envisages that in the end violence may be the only answer.

Churchill said it when he was an unknown 25 year old! He was considered a loose canon right upto the age of 50. Only a retard like you would hold him up to be some kind of a sage.

>> Take Anwar; he will not accept all religions are equal; he will not accept gender equality; he will not accept single child norms and he will not eschew ideas of world domination.

You are such a shameless liar! You are dead wrong on all counts, except that I have advocated family planning but not one-child norm, which is not a norm anywhere except in China. Why do you lie so much? And why are you so misinformed about things? And why do you want to use this forum for your personal sick hate war? See a psychiatrist, please!
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 21, 2008 12:00 AM
655
L:>>"extracts from the book"

Quite unbelievable.

Why do educated moslems want to treat such things as part of Islam, Azad approving it!
All such aspects of quran, hadiths and fatwas should be separated out, as 'sex-slam', ignored by modernists, only for historians.

Kaama-sutras should not be equated in spiritual value, to the bhagavat geeta, upanishads, etc.

Only the purely spiritual suras in quraan, dealing with bhakti, [devotion] and karma, [humanist morality] should be selectively compiled and published as 'Suraan' to be taught in schools. Rest of quraan to be redefined as 'kuraan', for references on non-current religion. Islam and moslems may then become more humanist, in due course.

One wonders why so much is asked and replied on 'taking baths'. Perhaps, daily baths were not common, in water-scarce arabia and the middle-east. Things might be better now, energy from oil being used to convert seawater for bath, drinks.

The propopensity for men to seek sex with animals is even more astounding. Perhaps, circum- cision and beef-eating led to excessive libidos, unfulfilled even after tiring out the many wives! Perhaps, excessive polygamy by the well-to-do and the large harems of sultans and nawabs, rendered the men-servants and soldiers without many girls left for them to marry, forcing them to go after animals! The male servants in harems had their organs removed, though.

Islam is in great need for reforms. Good moslems should concentrate on that aspect, worldwide, inside of supporting terrorists and hoping, praying, for its spread word-wide, as UMMA.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Dec 21, 2008 12:00 AM
656
“There are those who point out that US strategy has been successful inasmuch as the United States has not suffered a major attack on its home ground since 9/11. However, some would say that what America is suffering now is far worse…”
- A. Roy

Is that why Barack Obama has decided to use ‘Hussein’ in his name?
Is it a pure managerial approach?

Obama’s victory was possible in a country where LIFE, LIBERTY AND PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS are considered as absolute rights of all men. We just cannot think this value is practiced in TERRORIST GENERATING COUNTRIES.

Remember, only iron can cut the iron!
dip
Dhaka, Bangladesh
Dec 21, 2008 12:00 AM
657
Very intellectual article standing for the truth.
I appreciate you for your analysis and not falling prey to the mass hysteria that is being developed by the media which has become totally biased. Even Pakistan media like Geo TV has the guts to go against the Government but the media in India seems to have become the Government propaganda machine.
The issue of Hindu terrorists and Hindu terrorism has been totally forgotten now. The chilling voice of a hindu terrorist asking that why were such less Muslims killed in the Malegoan blast is the same voice of a terrorist like Kasab. Both have similar agendas, that is to kill as many innocent people as possible.
Also noticed the many comments against your article and against the true religion of God worshipping 1 God only. And I can only say that, "The dogs are barking and the caravan is moving…”.
Muddassir
bangalore, India
Dec 21, 2008 12:00 AM
658
MS. ARUNDHATI,

YOU ARE ESTABLISHING ANNIHILATION
COMPARING POND WITH AN OCEAN!!!
dip
Dhaka, Bangladesh
Dec 21, 2008 12:00 AM
659
All the talks of LET sleeper cells in India are grossly exaggerated. With Indian intellectuals like Arundhati Roy and politicians like AR Antulay LET doesn't need any, they are far more destructve than LET can ever imagine to be.
Sanjay
New Delhi, India
Dec 22, 2008 12:00 AM
660
Seshadri,

>> The propopensity for men to seek sex with animals is even more astounding.

I answerd this before, but since your mind is both closed and sick, you must have missed it. Bestiality is not unknown either in India or in America. There are criminal laws in America against it, as there must be in the Indian Penal Code too. You seem to be ignorant about what kind of abnormal behaviors exist in all communities, but as per your habit you always absolve all Hindus and point fingers at Muslims only! You are indeed a small man.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 22, 2008 12:00 AM
661
“…falling prey to the mass hysteria that is being developed by the media which has become totally biased. Even Pakistan media like Geo TV has the guts to go against the Government…”

Media was in favor of HUMANTY. Geo TV was not an exception - joined the caravan of HUMANKIND.

Confused?
dip
Dhaka, Bangladesh
Dec 22, 2008 12:00 AM
662
>>"You seem to be ignorant about what kind of abnormal behaviors"

If this is from an acknowledging practitioner, I must admit my igonarance, on the matter.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Dec 22, 2008 12:00 AM
663
Seshadri,

>> If this is from an acknowledging practitioner, I must admit my igonarance, on the matter.

These kinds of comments show how stupid and hostile you are. Since I cannot imagine an educated Indian with average intelligence making such a coarse statement, I have to conclude that your judgement has been seriously impaired because of senile dementia. You should see a doctor.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 22, 2008 12:00 AM
664
Here is a Question for you Ms. Arundhati Roy,-

“After all, if 10 young Indians from a splinter wing of the Hindu nationalist Bharatiya Janata Party traveled by boat to Pakistan, shot up two hotels in Karachi and the central train station, killed at least 173 people, and then, for good measure, murdered the imam and his wife at a Saudi-financed mosque while they were cradling their 2-year-old son — purely because they were Sunni Muslims — where would we be today?”
- THOMAS L FRIEDMAN, THE NEW YORK TIMES

http://www.nytimes.com/...on/03friedman.html?_r=1

dip
Dhaka, Bangladesh
Dec 22, 2008 12:00 AM
665
BH:>>"she acquired the name Arundhati just to fool us and they, the leftist Brits".

The wife of a land-grabber takes the name of the
wife of maharshi VasishTa, kula-guru of SreeRama's soorya-vamsa! People will think twice before dengrating her. Churchians in india are causing disgrace to Jesus Christ. What if He decides to frown on them? No one can save them.
.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Dec 22, 2008 12:00 AM
666
BHARATHIY
CHENNAI INDIA

‘This is a must read for all those who admire and criticise Arundhati.”

Link is inaccessible, please post other link, if you can.


dip
Dhaka, Bangladesh
Dec 22, 2008 12:00 AM
667
I am surprised over hue & cry over Antuley's remarks over suspicious nature of Karkare's death just before he was about to nab Praveen Togadia for Hindutva Terror.

I read the article by Amit Verma "What Killed Hemant Karkare?". In there he says that,

"We now know that these two terrorists had lost their way and were coming down from the hospital roof when they encountered Hemant Karkare in his vehicle."

The question all intelligent people should ask themselves is, what is the probability of,

"Terrorists loosing there way", && "Karkare being misguided to the same spot" && "All this happening just when BJP was being exposed as a terror organization" "All this happenning at the same time & space"

If my car gets stolen && exactly at the same time, my servent starts driving a suspiciously similar looking car, police will doubtlessly dig a little deeper into this "coincidence". It wont make either me or Police "unpatriotic" or a Pak sympathizer to follow this lead.
chanakya
Denver, United States
Dec 23, 2008 12:00 AM
668
Mahanta, those Indians from other parts of India are working hard in Assam, and for their troubles, they have been attacked and killed by aggressive, intolerant, lazy Assamese. The big difference between them and the Bangladeshis, is that the latter entered India illegally, whereas the Hindi-speaking labourers from Bihar/UP did not. Also, the Hindu speaking labourers are not a separatist threat to Assam, leave alone India; the Bangladeshis would certainly be one, though of course exceptions can be found. One question you haven't answered in all your messages: what vision of superior governance and elevated democracy does the ULFA or Bodo this or that have, to improve on the current dispensation? Just reacting and reacting again to the Indian government isn't good enough.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Dec 23, 2008 12:00 AM
669
Dip from DHAKA, thnaks so much for that link. Mr Friedman asks a very pertinent question, no doubt!
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Dec 23, 2008 12:00 AM
670
A few Pertinent observations
Ms. Roy is a muddlehead. Couldnt she have cut the fluff and come to the point (if there is one)
Ms Roy is also a moron. Comparisons need to be drawn between roughly similar items not between apples, oranges, Donkeys, rotten tomatoes and the like
The booker guys got it all wrong.
And finally the article talks of Intellectual infancy or something like that. Babe those who live in glass houses.... you know.

Though I am not a fan of Arnab... may be he is right after all.
Cramblr
Blr, India
Dec 23, 2008 12:00 AM
671
Reply to Varun Shekhar , Part 1

>Mahanta, those Indians from other parts of India are working hard in Assam, and for their troubles, they >have been attacked and killed by aggressive, intolerant, lazy Assamese.

*** What do you make of that? Perhaps these lazy Assamese and Bodos don't like the 'prosperity' the "Other Indians" are bestowing upon the indigenous populations of the region. What would your advice to these Indian missionaries be, unappreciated by the intolerant natives? The army has long been unleashed, with an open season on the natives, armed with AFSPA. Anything else you can think of?


>The big difference between >them and the Bangladeshis, is that the latter entered India illegally, >whereas the Hindi-speaking >labourers from Bihar/UP did not.


*** Yes indeed. For a Canadian or an American, where the law means something, it would be a difference to note. But tell me what the law means in India. The B'deshis routinely bribe Indian BSF personnel to sneak into Assam. Or just walk right over that invisible line on the mud. It is said that one can be let in for as little as Rs. 150. Any chance Indians might be outraged by such violations of the 'law'? Indian armed forces , even its lowest ranks, can routinely shoot and kill or maim a local, without ever being held to account; as AFSPA allows it to do. Two recent Indian govts.--the NDA and later the UPA had high power commissions to study AFSPA and make recommendations, because it was criticized by many as being totally undemocratic. The NDA never released the finding. The UPA did release theirs after a long quarantine. It recommended abolition. But nothing has happened. One of the top UPA ministers, I think it was Pranab Mukherjee, who suggested that if it is to be repealed, an exactly similar one will have to be re-enacted.

Now my question for you is this: IF the lazy natives remain restive, even under AFSPA, with the place crawling with Indian armed forces personnel and go shoot up "legal" hardworking, Indian missionaries; something is seriously amiss, wouldn't you think?

As an avowed believer in democratic values and beneficiary of a liberal democratic state's laws and institutions, what would YOUR recommendation be for India as it relates to its holdings of lands inhabited by the lazy and savage ingrates?

Chandan K Mahanta
St. Louis, United States
Dec 23, 2008 12:00 AM
672
Reply to Varun Shekhar , Part 2


>Also, the Hindu speaking labourers are not a separatist threat to >Assam, leave alone India;

*** You have a little problem here thinking thru these complex issues I see. The fear of secession is
not a problem for those who would rather be left alone, let go. It is a problem for those Indians who are fearful of losing the real estate they so covet. Question is why, if it had nothing in it for them?


>the Bangladeshis would certainly be one, though of course exceptions can be found.

*** I can't quite understand why Hindu desis get so worked up about the B'deshis taking over the lazy, NE savages' land. Paranoia over the lungi menace?



>One question you haven't answered in all your messages: what vision of superior governance and >elevated democracy does the ULFA or Bodo this or that have, to improve on the current dispensation? >Just reacting and reacting again to the Indian government isn't good enough.

*** Well, first off, nobody asked that question. I try to answer when I have one., unlike those others who won't answer ANY that I posed.

I don't know What ULFA 's or NDFB's proposals are for a governmental system that might be more sophisticated or better or merely functional than the dysfunctional desi-demokrasy that they people having reeling under. I don't speak for either of them, even though I have sympathies, knowing what I do.

But for discussions's sake, let us assume worst and that they have none a, just want independence as a trophy to hang in their huts.

If so, what should be the response of the so-called ;legitimate government in place that have all the power and the resources to do the right things by the people-lazy and savage as they might be?

More of the same?

Reform and show that IT is the better choice for the people and that it can deliver them to the promised land and so they ought not to support the insurgents and secessionists, overtly or covertly, as they have been for a quarter century.

Is it a fair question for Indian intelligentsia or its supporters abroad?

Chandan K Mahanta
St. Louis, United States
Dec 23, 2008 12:00 AM
673
chandan

you bums are no good for man or beast.

get out of india. no body wants you.´

cotton pickin niggers.

banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
Dec 23, 2008 12:00 AM
674
Adolf wrote:

>chandan
>you bums are no good for man or beast.get out of india. no >body wants you.´cotton pickin niggers.

*** Geez, Adolf, did I say something to anger you? Or did I ask an unpleasant question of you folks in my response to the great democracy exponent from Toronto?



Chandan K Mahanta
St. Louis, United States
Dec 23, 2008 12:00 AM
675
Mahanta is more upset with my description of those Assamese goons who slaughtered 60 innocent, hard working, productive, non-offending Bihari labourers a few summers back,( and STILL mount sporadic attacks on these people!) rather than condemning that outrageous behaviour. Those victims were not provoking anyone by their behaviour, merely going about their daily work, work that those Assamese killers probably were not willing to do! If the Assamese people as a whole were boycotting all the state elections, and again as a people had some alternative idea to develop the state economically and politically, the world would take sympathetic notice. Just throwing grenades at vegetable markets in Gauhati, and staging murders of Hindi-speaking labourers is not helping the cause, whatever that is.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Dec 24, 2008 12:00 AM
676
Banito/Lalit,

>> cotton pickin niggers.

Can you stop using such detestable racist terms?
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 24, 2008 12:00 AM
677
Reply to Varun Shekhar, Part A


Varun Shekhar wrote:


>Mahanta is more upset with my description of those Assamese goons who slaughtered 60 innocent, >hard working, productive, non-offending Bihari labourers a few summers back,( and STILL mount >sporadic attacks on these people!) rather than condemning that outrageous behaviour.


**** I am ashamed of myself for trying to pretend I was not angry, Varun. Taught me a lesson. You saw right thru my subterfuges. Should have known not to try to pull wool over a God's-gift-to-humanity NRI ! From now on I promise to lash back with the same kind of language so many other stellar examples of desi-intellectualsim that lurk the shadowy crevices of this forum, if only I can find the words and phrases that they use. Adolf for example. I am sure it has nothing to do with their inability to muster a set of credible arguments to rebut what gives them a slow-burn.

But did you not write the following:

>Mahanta, those Indians from other parts of India are working hard in Assam, and for their troubles, they >have been attacked and killed by aggressive, intolerant, lazy Assamese.

Just asking, to see if you can see a difference between the two statements. But I realize that we are dealing with a foreign language, this damned English language that plays with our little minds so and so often.

I thought that you all have already determined why the likes of myself could not possibly be sensitive to mindless slaughter of hardworking missionary Indians in Assam toiling to uplift the conditions of the savages.

Chandan K Mahanta
St. Louis, United States
Dec 24, 2008 12:00 AM
678
Reply to Varun Shekhar, Part B

>Those victims were not provoking anyone by their behaviour, merely going about their daily work, >work that those Assamese killers probably were not willing to do!

*** Once again allow me to congratulate you on your steel-trap mind that can see the obvious in uber-clarity that mere mortals must not .

But the question remains, the one that I posed and you refused to touch it:

>As an avowed believer in democratic values and beneficiary of a liberal democratic state's laws and >institutions, what would YOUR recommendation be for India as it relates to its holdings of lands >inhabited by the lazy and savage ingrates? ------
---- Those that do not hesitate to sluaghter the good hardworking Indians in Assam, and do it with ease, in spite of the place crawling with Indian armed forces and in spite of them having an open season, armed with AFSPA, which they don't have even in Kashmir?

Chandan K Mahanta
St. Louis, United States
Dec 24, 2008 12:00 AM
679
Reply to Varun Shekhar, Part C

>If the Assamese people as a whole were boycotting all the state elections, and again as a people had >some alternative idea to develop the state economically and politically, the world would take >sympathetic notice.


*** I don't know how much of sordid modern Indian history you know, but it was such a boycott in the mid-80's that unleashed CRP tyranny backed up with the army that led to the "Andolan", the uprising which led to AGP rule and gave birth to ULFA shortly thereafter. May I also remind you of the resistance of the Kashmiris to the forced election , about the same time, '85 if I am not mistaken, that led to the widespread rioting and slaughter of Kashmiris by the INdian armed forces, the repercussions of which continue to haunt India even today.

But most of all, if election boycott is all you, an NRI who spouts the virtues of liberal a democratic ethos,can imagine to stem the relentless downward slide of desi-governance, it speaks volumes of the clueless condition you are mired in.


>Just throwing grenades at vegetable markets in Gauhati, and staging murders of Hindi-speaking >labourers is not helping the cause, whatever that is.

*** Very perceptive indeed. You are right. Isn't it laughable how these lazy savages are trying to get your sympathy by slaughtering Biharis? What a riot!!
Chandan K Mahanta
St. Louis, United States
Dec 24, 2008 12:00 AM
680
Anwar:

>> cotton pickin niggers.
>>Can you stop using such detestable racist terms?

*** Why even bother to converse with someone like this moron?
He is a desi alright!

Chandan K Mahanta
St. Louis, United States
Dec 24, 2008 12:00 AM
681
Chandan,

>> Why even bother to converse with someone like this moron?

You and Square-2-Root write good stuff, but you seem to be stuck in this one discussion on Arundhati's article. You should click on the "Interactive" button at the top of the page and go to "Rants and Raves".
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 24, 2008 12:00 AM
682
One of the few times I agreed with Ram Guha was when he Ms. Roy to stick to fiction!
p bodepudi
San Diego, United States
Dec 24, 2008 12:00 AM
683
One of the few times I agreed with Ram Guha was when he admonished Ms. Roy to stick to fiction!

p bodepudi
San Diego, United States
Dec 24, 2008 12:00 AM
684
Bodepudi wrote:

>One of the few times I agreed with Ram Guha was when he >admonished Ms. Roy to stick to fiction!

*** Wow! What a comeback by Ram Guha !!!

I never cease to be amazed by the intellectual acuity of our fellow men in these forums.
Chandan K Mahanta
St. Louis, United States
Dec 24, 2008 12:00 AM
685
>>"hardworking missionary Indians in Assam"

from kerala and south tamilnad, I suppose; paid professionals, reducing a religion of love to a profession for profits for the corpo [sarpa], called the church..
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Dec 24, 2008 12:00 AM
686
Whatever, Mahanta. But the Assamese movement, whether inside ULFA or out of it, hasn't shown anything constructive or elevating or forward looking. It is merely negative, reactive stuff bemoaning the inadequacy of Indian democracy and the policies of the Indian central government. And the same goes for the rest of the 'movements' in the various states in the Northeast.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Dec 24, 2008 12:00 AM
687
Varun wrote:

>Whatever, Mahanta.

*** You sure took a long amount of time to get to this point from your haughty verdict about how desi-demokrasy can solve all its problems. Allow me to add the piece that you left out:

"--Whatever, Mahanta" ---- my mind is made up, don't bother me with the facts!

My own observation of the desi-discourse on the internet spanning over a decade is that the intellectually lazy NRI cheer-leaders of the dysfunctional desi-demokrasy, clueless about what they speak of, are far more guilty than the sloth ridden desi-intelligentsia in perpetuating the dismal Indian state's misgovernment and non-government. But the RIs at least have an excuse, they never have seen a REAL functioning democratic state in action in their life times !




>But the Assamese movement, whether inside ULFA or out of it, hasn't shown >anything constructive or >elevating or forward looking. It is merely negative, reactive stuff bemoaning >the inadequacy of Indian >democracy and the policies of the Indian central government. And the same >goes for the rest of the >'movements' in the various states in the Northeast.


*** Yes? Is that why the Indian state, tacitly or overtly supported by the Indian intelligentsia and its carbon-copy abroad, continues on its dismally failed policies ?


At least Arundhati Roy had the b**** to say it like it is, making you guys squirm like you do here in these forums. Good thing she knows how to shame you folks in front of the world whose approval and recognition you so grovel for.

Good bye!

Chandan K Mahanta
St. Louis, United States
Dec 24, 2008 12:00 AM
688
Shesadri wrote:

>>"hardworking missionary Indians in Assam"

>from kerala and south tamilnad, I suppose; paid professionals, >reducing a religion of love to a profession for profits for the >corpo [sarpa], called the church..


*** You Hinduttva-wallas are a pathetic lot! The Christians have done an enormous amount of good in these far flung colonies of Indian misrule. They are not the ones that are despised.
Chandan K Mahanta
St. Louis, United States
Dec 24, 2008 12:00 AM
689
Arundhati’s blurred conclusions:

-“India's richest city ended up looking like war-torn Kupwara”

-“something's going very badly wrong in this country.”

-“Pakistani government succumbed to international pressure, putting Hafiz Saeed under house arrest. Babu Bajrangi, however, is out on bail and continues to live the life of a respectable man in Gujarat.”

-“By 1998, the BJP was in power at the Centre. The US War on Terror put the wind in their sails. It allowed them to do exactly as they pleased, even to commit genocide and then present their fascism as a legitimate form of chaotic democracy. ------- This, then, is the larger historical context of terrorism in the subcontinent, and of the Mumbai attacks.”

-“the neat accusation against Pakistan is getting a little messy.”

-“In today's world, trying to pin down the provenance of a terrorist strike and isolate it within the borders of a single nation-state is very much like trying to pin down the provenance of corporate money. It's almost impossible.”

-“The boy-terrorists' nonchalant willingness to kill—and be killed—mesmerised their international audience. They delivered something different from the usual diet of suicide bombings and missile attacks that people have grown inured to on the news. Here was something new. Die Hard 25.”

-“The truth is that we have no idea what to make of them, because we can sense that even before they've died, they've journeyed to another world where we cannot reach them.”

-“This in a country with a shadowy history of suspicious terror attacks, murky investigations, and fake 'encounters'.”

-“The only way to contain (it would be naive to say end) terrorism is to look at the monster in the mirror”

IT WOULD BE IMPOSSIBLE TO END TERRORISM IF INTELLECTUALS LIKE YOU BREED TRASHES LIKE THIS.
dip
Dhaka, Bangladesh
Dec 24, 2008 12:00 AM
690
"-“something's going very badly wrong in this country.”

Amazing insight. One example of things going wrong is that trash gets published in papers. I mean, remove the name from this article and send it anonymous, would any editor have cared to read beyond the third para?

Ganesan
Nj, USA
Dec 24, 2008 12:00 AM
691
CKM:>>"The Christians have done an enormous amount of good in these far flung colonies of Indian misrule".

Kaamaroopa-deSa, on the banks of bramha-putra, where chaitanya mahaaprabhu was born, has been an honored and integral part of the cultural and spiritual heritage of bhaarata-varsha and bharata-kanDa, hindu-deSa, although somewhat separated by the incursions and intrusion of the churchians and islamists in recent centuries, reducing it to an 'aSama-deSa', uncontrollable place, Assam, now. But, evil will die by its own connivance. Churchianity will be eliminated by the grace of jesus christ Himself in due time.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Dec 25, 2008 12:00 AM
692

Elevating message: Indian democracy is inadequate or deficient. NRI's are deluded about the weakness of Indian democracy even though they live in perfectly democratic countries. Ergo, ULFA has the right approach, which will lead to greater democracy than what exists. Yeah, right.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Dec 25, 2008 12:00 AM
693
Ass-Seshadri,

>> somewhat separated by the incursions and intrusion of the churchians and islamists in recent centuries, reducing it to an 'aSama-deSa', uncontrollable place, Assam, now. But, evil will die by its own connivance. Churchianity will be eliminated by the grace of jesus christ Himself in due time.

I had to again call you Ass-Seshadri because you have again used your insulting inventions, 'jislam' and 'churchianity". Your post, by the way, is as stupid and evil as any of your other posts.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 25, 2008 12:00 AM
694
Ms. Arundhati Roy:

Please respond to many posts criticizing you-especially by Salman. You seem to have lost much of credibility you had built with great essays on environment/dams, etc
p bodepudi
San Diego, United States
Dec 25, 2008 12:00 AM
695
"Churchianity" and "Jislam" refer to the organised aggressive religions of Christianity and Islam, spread with violence, verbal in the case of the former, and physical with the latter.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Dec 25, 2008 12:00 AM
696
Varun.

>> "Churchianity" and "Jislam" refer to ....

There has never been any hate pracharak in this forum that you have not gone ass-kissing!
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 25, 2008 12:00 AM
697
Varun:

Satyam eva jayate, for people like you and I.

But, for AP, 'ass-tvam eva jayate', is the belief, meaning: 'calling people asses is the way to win!' May he win his way! We can ignore him.

Perhaps, outlook can even be renamed 'ass-look'. All posters can be numbered ass-1, ass-2 etc., to be assified permanently by Faruki.

Happy new year to you.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Dec 25, 2008 12:00 AM
698
Seshadri,

>> for AP, 'ass-tvam eva jayate', is the belief, meaning: 'calling people asses is the way to win!'

The guy has absolutely no idea how much he himself insults and denigrates individuals and groups in this forum! He is a pompous self-glorifying nincompoop!
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 25, 2008 12:00 AM
699
AP:>>"The guy has absolutely no idea how much he himself insults and denigrates individuals and groups in this forum! He is a pompous self-glorifying nincompoop!"

It is quite amusing how this man is clearly giving a very close description of himself, whenever he goes on his diatribes against me!
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Dec 25, 2008 12:00 AM
700
Sesshadri,

>> It is quite amusing how this man is clearly giving a very close description of himself.

It is quite clear how little you know yourself, and how unaware you are of the hate and hurt that you dish out everyday to members of the minorities and to their religions. A man with so little insight cannot be completely sane.

>> Perhaps Allah has decided to answer AP's prayers. Hindusthan will soon be a 'place, where hindus lived, once upon a time!'.

That is projection! You think my prayers will be the same as your prayers! You are wrong again!

Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 26, 2008 12:00 AM
701
Arundhati Roy is the darling daughter of privelege and her elevation to unofficial spokesman for Jehadis and India haters is because of her ease with thought and the elitist language English.

Were she a poor hindi(only) or Malyali(only) or bengali(only) speaking, traditional product of some moffusil Indian town unfamiliar with the attitudes of those who bestride two cultures with equal ease, she would not be published by our contrarian Outlook and might have had to turn to toting guns and grenades.

So folks please permit Ms Roy, the sophisticated and enchanting user of the elite language English that many believe has divided Indian from Indian, to throw her verbal bombs on us.

She is empowered and she wishes to hurt and from
the degree and quantum of response generated every time she writes or speaks , she succeeds....she has been labelled a verbal and emotional terrorist, against the grain of all kinds of people in India and I must admit she gets my bile going...I don't think there is a janat for her because she is obviously diluting in her own poisonous world view and will possibly self destruct one day ....unless the LeT and others appoint MA Lashkari or Arundhati bin Laden...harsh words I know,,,but this lady sure takes the cake!

Lady you wrote a great book once upon a time and you write trashy history and social pedagogy so please go back to literature...we can always do with a masterpiece and we can do without your bitter untruths about our world!

Bindu Tandon
Mumbai, India
Dec 26, 2008 12:00 AM
702
Sir, I was hoping against hope that after her notorious piece about azadi for Kashmir et al, what a clever, but asinine phrase,but how sensational,but alas, she was not writing fiction, or was she? and now that she had got a resounding slap on the face, if not a blob of a spit, on the face, by the Indians in Kashmir, who voted wholeheartedly in the elections, braving inclemnet weather, and sundry threats by the terrorists, for whom Arundhanti Roy's, heart always bleeds, her paranoid rant against Hindus, would not be published by the editor, not the dog or the ass, though the distinction is getting increasiingly blurred,but how wrong I have been. One more piece of rubbish. Just to give one instace, in Roy's reckoning what happened in Gujarat, where 2000 were killed,is always genocide,never mind that 700 of them were Hindus, for Hindus don't count,if not holocaust, what happened during partition,wherein a million were killed, 50% of them were Hindus,is only a massacre! There is again mention of massacre of Christians in Orissa,but not a word about the brutal massacre of an 84 year old Sanyasi, along with five of his followers, including women, whose only fault was that he tried to stop the conversion of poor, illiterate tribals to Christainity. Which brings to me to the fundamental question; what lies behind the visceral hatred of this Roy to anything Hindu? Except that she is the daughter of a Hindu father and a Christain mother(whose mother's ancestrs converted to Christianity( how?!) centuries ago)And the parents got divorced later.They say the majority of criminals in America come from single parent homes.Since Roy suffers from this megalomania that she is the only repository of wisdom, above even the apex court of the country,and has no hesitation in raving and ranting against the apex court, of all places in Turkey,I hope, she can swallow this!It is always the massacre of innocent Muslims in Gujarat, never mind 59 Hindus were burnt alive, without any provocation whatever...When willArundhathi Roy will come out of this delusion that she is this reincranation of Athena or Minerva? The editor of Outlook may gloat over the fact that he has beaten his rival in the circulation war.But, alas, the credibility of the magazine is going down and downer...
K.Niranjan Sharma aka Vikshiptha
Neelanjana, Shanthipalla,
Kumbla-671321
M:9945773325
K.Niranjan Sharma aka Vikshiptha
Mangalore, India
Dec 27, 2008 12:00 AM
703
Mrs. Arundati Roy,
I truely think that you are a disgrace to the nation you have born in. I do not understant what motivates you write the kind of craps you do write.
Shankar Shetty
Kuwait, Kuwait
Dec 27, 2008 12:00 AM
704
i would like to ask all people who shout/abuse roy to just open their purse and see the photo on the rupee notes and ask them selves what he would have done after mumbai terror.thank god there was no pota/tada/uapa as gandhi would have been booked under these acts for not nationalistic like bjp/sangh parivar.gandhi was introspecting and asked evry indian to introspect after partition which killed a million.was he any different from what arundati has written.he was killed by the same group which now says that arundati will get slippers which will stand for 40 generations.its not that sangh parivar alone exists in this country and there r thousands like me who will be there to protect her from sanghis.
ganapathi
chennai, India
Dec 27, 2008 12:00 AM
705
Mr Ganapathi

You must have enjoying ample spaces in your house still now. Time is coming when you will find yourself in infinite disbelief that you’ve become a stranger in your own house. The circumference of your beloved known circle will be narrowed down sarcastically. The blow will come as ill treatment, hatred, imbalance of power and finally you will have to surrender. Otherwise you will be eliminated.

Your ideology is great. But who cares in this cruel world. - it wants a eye for an eye now.

And I’m sure you’ll be in the group of blinds. The time is not so far, you’ll repent – and if not you – your children will.
dip
Dhaka, Bangladesh
Dec 28, 2008 12:00 AM
706
Another instance of police terror in the garb of fight against terror.

http://ibnlive.in.com/n...-shot-dead/81484-3.html
Muddassir
bangalore, India
Dec 28, 2008 12:00 AM
707
A great article as usual, but wish she could make it a lot more concise. It's really funny that how many of us foolishly think a police state is good one. An independent judiciary & law enforcement force (which is also competent) would get us on the road to redemption.
PVRajagopalan
Chennai, India
Dec 29, 2008 12:00 AM
708
>> Another instance of police terror in the garb of fight against terror.

While the death of the 20 year old college student in Bangalore is tragic, it seems from the news report that his behavior was largely at fault.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 29, 2008 12:00 AM
709
After carefully reading this article, I finally realized that 9 Is Not 11,
November isn't September and Arundhati Roy has gone totally insane.
san
bankalore, india
Dec 29, 2008 12:00 AM
710
"After carefully reading this article,.........."

You are the man!! I applaud your patience in reading the entire stuff. I went just to the last page and completing even that proved tough.
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Dec 29, 2008 12:00 AM
711
>>"If the student that was killed belonged to a non Muslim community then our secular media would not have stood on thier toes"

If the boy had been a hindu and brahmin to boot, the psuedo-secular media would have given him honorary membership of 'abhinav bhaarat' and asked for the sadhvi, swami, colonel et. al., under investigation for malegaon blasts, shot down without further ado.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Dec 29, 2008 12:00 AM
712
Seshadri,

>> If the boy had been a hindu and brahmin to boot, the psuedo-secular media would have given him honorary membership of 'abhinav bhaarat' and asked for the sadhvi, swami, colonel et. al., under investigation for malegaon blasts, shot down without further ado.

Such impish accounts can be expected from irresponsible provocateurs, but from a professor.....?
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 29, 2008 12:00 AM
713
The recent terrorist attacks by Israel on innocent Palestinian civilians are creating another generation of humans who will grow up hating Israel and its terrorism.
We Indians must condemn this terrorist attack just as we condemned the terrorist attacks on innocent people out of whom 40% killed were Muslims.

http://muslimmatters.or...-humanitarian-disaster/
Muddassir
bangalore, India
Dec 29, 2008 12:00 AM
714
"We Indians must condemn this terrorist attack"

How about first condemning the bomb attacks by Hamas for a week?
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Dec 29, 2008 12:00 AM
715
after wasting time on reading the article of madam arundhati roy i came to know shw had nothing to say in fact on the topic. At least she should have enumerated the unjustices done to Mr Hafeez Saeed and others for which she wants indians to atone. Does she want to tell every body whosoever feels unjusticed that this is the way to get the things corrected? Instead of atleast condemning the terrorist attacks she has told to us to do justice to contain these terrorist attacks. Madam may I ask if all the people who feel unjusticed take arms what will happen. These terrorists are not seeking justice for any body, neither for themselves nor for islam. They are only and purely murderers and they kill since they are sure that they will not be killed. She has tried her level best to equate the lashkar e toeba with RSS, Shiv Sena and other hindu organisations without giving any basis. Actually some persons strive on the controversy and hindu bashing is quite fashionable these days. All the drawing room intelligensia feels proud on doing this duty.
R.K.SHARMA.
Ludhiana, India
Dec 29, 2008 12:00 AM
716
"We Indians must condemn this terrorist attack just as we condemned the terrorist attacks on innocent people out of whom 40% killed were Muslims. "

MUDDASSIR

Barring 6 Muslims alleged to be killed by Hindus in Malegaon rest of the Muslims World over have been killed by the Muslims theselves.

36 lacs Muslims killed by Muslims in Bangladesh and Pakistan.

I do lament for killed Indian Muslims our owns but no sympathies for other Muslims specially the Arabi breed who stabbed India at each and every moment when India was attacked by Pakistan.

Sorry boss !
a k ghai
mumbai, India
Dec 29, 2008 12:00 AM
717
mudassir

go ahead and condemn the attack.

hoowever remember that few if any muslim country
said anything after mumbai.

and did you have anything to say when sadaam killed thousands. ofcource not.
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
Dec 29, 2008 12:00 AM
718
MUDDASSIR
BANGALORE INDIA

I saw a very little Palestinian girl’s blood covered face on CNN two days ago.

She does not know it is an age of disillusion,
of doubt and uncertainty and questioning.
She does not know this world is drowning
under the see of hatred and terrorism.
The face of that little girl touched me very deeply
as the face was the snapshot of viciousness of today’s world.

This is for you little girl,-

“For the world which seems
To lie before us, like a land of dreams,
So various, so beautiful, so new,
Hath really neither joy, nor love, nor light,
Nor certitude, nor peace, nor help for pain;
And we are here, as on a darkling plain
Swept with confused alarms of struggle and fight,
Where ignorant armies clash by night.”

- Matthew Arnold

Let’s pray and act
so that we can make this world livable
for our next generation.
dip
Dhaka, Bangladesh
Dec 31, 2008 12:00 AM
719
When most are blinded by rage and hatred, Arundhati Roy has the wisdom and courage to point to the elephant in the room. Never mind Salman Rushdie's gross misinterpretation of her views in his riposte. Where does she write (or even imply) that it is okay for the rich to get killed? Rushdie's trumped up charges against her were shocking and preposterous. Arundhati's message is pretty clear, I think. As always, she appeals for life, love, freedom and justice. The ring of honesty in her voice has always made me stop and listen.
shradha
kathmandu, Nepal
Dec 31, 2008 12:00 AM
720
>>“As always, she appeals for life, love, freedom and justice. The ring of honesty in her voice has always made me stop and listen.”

SHRADHA
KATHMANDU NEPA

She also appeals for the
life of a vulture very near to a wounded person about to die.
She loves the killing-happy terrorists; in fact, she is always dazzled by their bravery.
She seeks justice for the murderers like a top-ranked barrister in the court of Jihadis.

Please, pray for the persons murdered in Mumbai.
Also stop and listen the unending sighs of their loved ones.
dip
Dhaka, Bangladesh
Dec 31, 2008 12:00 AM
721
Interesting article.

http://in.rediff.com/ne...villain-of-the-year.htm


I specially liked this paragraph.
"Another promising candidate for the top spot is the 'human rights brigade'. Unfortunately, presently shell-shocked by the Mumbai attacks, most of them have gone back into the woodwork. They would resurface once the terror trial begins and demand 'justice' to the terrorist, tarnish the reputation of NSG commandos who saved lives, and launch an agitation. They will again invoke the Babri masjid demolition to justify the terror acts. But all that is likely to happen in 2009 and hence they do not qualify in this year's contest."

Probably he has not read this article from Arundhati. The spokesperson for the brigade has already spoken.
Maha
NJ, United States
Dec 31, 2008 12:00 AM
722
My choice for the villain of the year is Manmohan Singh-for doing aboslutely nothing and remaining in a trance for a whole year.

Some villains make a lot of noise and put up a lot of show. A very few villains remain silent and cause carnage. Manmohan Singh is the second category.

He was busy with the nuke deal that he had no time to discuss security issues.
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Dec 31, 2008 12:00 AM
723
ganesan

my choice would be the vinod mehtas, and the simpering, sanctimonious, and dumb yes men, who praised the nonexisting clothes of the emperor.

perhaps it should be arundhati roy. her problem perhaps lies in that she has never been properly laid. all her sexulal frustrations culminate in a bitter accusation of the society she lives in.

send her of to mullah omar. she will be his wife or concubine. she needs this treatment. and we
deserve to see her get the treatment she deserves.
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
Dec 31, 2008 12:00 AM
724
Ganesan,

>> My choice for the villain of the year is Manmohan Singh.

I would have never guessed:-)
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 31, 2008 12:00 AM
725
Banito

She has created a complete confusion
among the progressive minded groups here in Bangladesh.
Her 9 is not 11 has been a sixer for the pro-fundamentalists here.
Her translated articles are published here in dailies with full interest in a regular basis.

She is the plastic surgery that fanatics are exploiting to mend their ugly faces.
But what they don’t know she infact stinks.
Well, what’s the measure then?
dip
Dhaka, Bangladesh
Jan 01, 2009 12:00 AM
726
1/1/09

FBI had presented strong evidence to Islamabad of Pakistani links to November's militant attacks in Mumbai that killed 179 people.
-Reuters

dip
Dhaka, Bangladesh
Jan 06, 2009 12:00 AM
727
Evidence given:


http://www.google.com/h...zIiwt1mgiJyR4LFu6B0vf2w


Uneasy question:
The invaders are stateless actors according toPak.
Well, what about the ringleaders who are participating in talk sows or under custody?
Funny stage drama, Pakistan should include Arundhati in its advisory team to make it smarter.

Bizarre Math based on root!
9 is 11

dip
Dhaka, Bangladesh
Jan 06, 2009 12:00 AM
728
'commies and christian evangelists are pals in India only'

Mian Awarey

The link provided by Bhupesh clearly say that Christians are unwanted in China.


http://www.indianexpres...ng-christianity/407263/



'China allows Christianity but wants to channel it into state-backed churches. Still, religious activity is expanding, putting officials and police on the defensive '

Hope Canada will accomodate these unfortunate ones too .

a k ghai
mumbai, India
Jan 07, 2009 12:00 AM
729
Bizarre Math based on root:

9 is 11


“The lone surviving gunman captured after November's militant attacks in Mumbai has links to Pakistan, a Pakistani government minister said on Wednesday, after media reported he was Pakistani.

"He has links to Pakistan but the investigation is ongoing," Information Minister Sherry Rehman told Reuters.

Earlier, Dawn News television, citing unidentified officials, said a Pakistani investigation had determined the gunman, Mohammed Ajmal Kasab, who is in Indian custody, was Pakistani. “
-bdnews

dip
Dhaka, Bangladesh
Jan 08, 2009 12:00 AM
730
WE WANT EXPLANATIONS FROM ARUNDHATI ROY THE GRANDMA OF THE TERRORISTS:

"Mumbai attackers ordered by phone to kill: documents"

“Militants who attacked Mumbai were urged to kill their hostages in cold blood and fight to the death in the name of Islam, according to transcripts of intercepted telephone calls made public Wednesday.
In one exchange, one of the two attackers who stormed the luxury Oberoi-Trident hotel was told to "inflict the maximum damage" and to "kill all hostages, except the two Muslims" they were holding.
"We have three foreigners, including women," the attacker identified as Fahadullah said.
"Kill them. Keep your phone switched on so that we can hear the gunfire," he was told.
The transcript then said the two attackers were heard to tell the two Muslims to step aside and order the hostages to stand in a line. Gunfire was heard, then cheering.
Details of the attackers' conversations, allegedly with their six "Pakistan-based handlers," are contained in a dossier of evidence that India says "unmistakenly" points to elements in Pakistan being behind the attacks.
The document, obtained by The Hindu, an English-language newspaper, puts the official death toll at 165 civilians and security personnel -- two more than previously -- plus nine of the 10 attackers.
It also lists items recovered after the attacks, including Pakistan-made weapons and global positioning systems with coordinates of a sea route from off southeast Pakistan, as well as Pakistani washing powder and shaving cream.”
-AFP-
Jan 07, 2009
dip
Dhaka, Bangladesh
Jan 08, 2009 12:00 AM
731
“Pak NSA Mahmud Ali Durrani sacked”

Oh! Another attempt to hide the Sun in a broad daylight!!
dip
Dhaka, Bangladesh
Jan 09, 2009 12:00 AM
732
'the Mumbai attacks focused her entire article on the terrible doings of the "Hindu Right." Arundhati Roy, asked us to "contextualize" the Mumbai attacks as a choice for India to make between "justice and civil war." And parts of the Pakistani blogosphere and Pakistan television and sites like countercurrents.org were alive with murmuring of a conspiracy by—who else?—Hindus, Jews and Americans, all to defame Muslims. Practically all these Ostrich-like responses, burying their head in the sand with various forms of denial and apologia, chose to ignore the elephant sitting in the room—the reality of Pakistan-based Islam-enabled terrorism. Sacrificing this elementary truth to the gods of politically correctness, helps no one—including the many Muslims, among them Pakistanis, who are genuinely aghast at these acts.'



http://www.chowk.com/articles/15182


The first kind of apologia is denial. This generally takes the form of elaborate conspiracy theories—such as the most popular theory doing the rounds of the Muslim world after the 9/11 attacks, "the Jews did it." For what? "To blame the Muslims" of course. It appears that the entire world is engaged in the construction of elaborate hoax plots to kill themselves simply to blame Muslims. The version doing the rounds in the Mumbai terror attacks was that the attackers were Hindu, evidenced by the fact that one of the photographs of a suave young man, casually toting an AK-47 with a back-pack full of ammunition, showed him wearing a thick red band on his arm. "Tying a red thread or cord around the wrist is a Hindu practice" proclaims the blog, titled "Evidence being deliberately ignored" perhaps not quite aware that the Hindu practice involves a sacred thread or mauli, not a broad band, though at least one report pointed out that they were specifically instructed to wear a red band to cause confusion. And wearing a band is hardly clinching evidence versus the spate of satellite, phone, ordnance-based and confessional evidence that is available. Already this "clinching" evidence of the "Hindu band" has been picked and quoted up by numerous people with Muslim names posting comments on the news as incontrovertible proof of the conspiracy. But the conspiracy theory proponents are not found only in the anonymous blogosphere. It is broadcast as the explanation on mainstream Pakistani TV. No less than Maulana Syed Nizamuddin, All India Muslim Personal Law Board general secretary, has latched onto the ascription of the Mumbai attacks to Muslims as a conspiracy. Abdul Rahman Antulay of the Congress, in remarks disowned by the party, has come out with his own version of the conspiracy. So the arrest of the Pakistani operative of Lashkar-e-Taiba; the selective targeting of Americans, Britons, Hindus and Jews, the "Western powers" and Yehudi-Hindu "devils" that form the backbone of the Islamist terror universe; the evidence of traced satellite calls to Pakistan, is all rendered meaningless by this single red-band. The explicit instructions they carried to "kill indiscriminately, particularly white foreign tourists, and spare Muslims" that led them to spare the Turkish Muslim couple at the Taj and massacre the 13-year old American girl is of no consequence.

All this, say the conspiracy theorists, is simply a grand plot to "defame Muslims."
'
a k ghai
mumbai, India
Jan 09, 2009 12:00 AM
733
'The final apologia is the apologia of mitigating circumstances—that of poverty and lack of education. Among its recent proponents—none other than the good doctor Chopra, amiably turning Larry King's questions on the Mumbai attacks into the "root causes" of "poverty", "education" and lest we forget, "fundamentalist Hindus." In the bliss generated by the chanting of mantras and the counting of dollars, while carefully distancing himself from Hinduism to skillfully market himself to the broader American public, Dr. Chopra also distanced himself from reasoned analysis. If poverty and lack of education were the root causes, it is strange that most of the 9/11 suicide-attackers were both well-to-do and educated as is Osama Bin Laden himself. The "Indian Mujahideen" that claimed responsibility for recent bomb blasts included well-educated and well-off software engineers and college students. Of course all these arrests have already been dismissed by the apologists as part of the unending conspiracy against Muslims. The Versace T-shirt wearing Lashkar-a-Toiba attacker in Mumbai who gleefully shot down bystanders and police officers alike may have been poor, but it was not poverty that turned him into a lethal killer. That required something else. The trained Mumbai attackers had little problem using the GPS or Google Earth to carry out their blood-soaked plots. Neither poverty nor lack of education is the "root cause" propelling these cold-blooded and merciless killers.
'
a k ghai
mumbai, India
Jan 09, 2009 12:00 AM
734
'This is not to say that innocents, Muslims and others, are not targeted by the Indian State or that the Indian police is not often sloppy, venal and corrupt. The problems with the Indian state are manifold and are the subject of other writings. However, the Indian state is by- and-large an equal-opportunity oppressor in addition to being blissfully incompetent. But its acts alone do not yield clues into the phenomenon of terrorism by Islamic groups in India.

By their choice of targets, and by the causes they espoused, there is sufficient cause to conjecture that the Mumbai attackers were Muslims, mostly from Pakistan, fighting for what they considered as Islamic causes. They were specifically indoctrinated using Islamic concepts and the promise of Islam-justified heavenly rewards. And, in this case, they were specifically the product of the terror apparatus from Pakistan. Now whether Islam is properly or improperly used and how deeply the Pakistan state is implicated are reasonable follow-up research questions.

But we can ask these questions properly once we go past the three forms of apologia. Whether or not other Muslims agree with their actions, the first step is to admit the existence of Islam-inspired terror groups. Denial and apologia, both by Muslims and by others on their behalf, is much more damaging to Muslims. This is because, even when the thought censors of political correctness refuse to look at this inconvenient truth, it doesn’t go away—it simply becomes part of private conversation rather that open public discourse. And it is these private conversations, about anti-Muslim conspirators on the one hand and all-guilty Muslims on the other, which are far more dangerous to the future of a harmonious India.

On the other hand, once we plainly admit of Pakistan-based Islam-inspired terror without pretending it away, we are able to examine it in the light and come up with possible solutions. This will be the subject of the next article.'


a k ghai
mumbai, India
Jan 09, 2009 12:00 AM
735
'The second form of apologia is the apologia of "just cause." This form of apologia bandies about every imaginable excuse—economic disparities, the pulling down of the structure of the Babri Masjid, the situation in Kashmir, the riots in Gujarat, the alleged persecution of "minorities" in India and so on and so forth as the reason for terror. All this must apparently be fixed, we are told, before the terror will go away. The choice as the doyen of selective apologia, Arundhati Roy, herself informs us in an article about the Mumbai attacks that the choice is between "justice" for all these things and "civil war" in India. How that relates to Pakistan-based terror groups with a pan-Islamic mission killing Jews in Mumbai is somehow lost in the fog of her own picturesque prose. Yes, somehow, the persecution of the Hindu minorities in Pakistan and Bangladesh to the point of elimination in Pakistan and to truly genocidal proportions in Bangladesh, has yet to generate bands of Hindu terrorists turning into random mass-murderers in those countries. By contrast, Muslims have increased, both in absolute numbers and in percentage terms in independent India. These are simply facts to be acknowledge. Severe genocidal persecution would show up in census data. Ask the Tibetans. The Tibetan genocide by the Chinese, a real genocide in an age of hyperbole, in which over 1 million Tibetans have been killed, their monasteries have been destroyed and their identity and culture under attack has continued for decades, have scarcely turned Tibetans into taking AK-47's into their hands and blasting Chinese tourists in Mumbai. The Ahmediyas, an unorthodox Muslim sect, are likewise a severely persecuted minority in Pakistan who have not take recourse to terror. Nor did Buddhists the world over start blowing people and declare Muslims as their enemies because of the great injustice in the destruction of the magnificient Bamiyan Buddhas, a marvel of far greater grandeur than the obscure and relatively insignificant Babri Masjid, by the Taliban.

Who remembers the riot in India a few years ago where a particular community was targeted and hundreds were killed and over twenty thousand people were rendered homeless? This is not Gujarat 2002 but something that took place after that—Assam in 2003. Its victims were "Hindi-speaking" Biharis living in Assam, some for generations. It is a riot that has virtually vanished from history. No "Concerned Citizens" tribunal went to do a probe. No Nussbaum's write about it. No campaigns will be launched to deny the Chief Minister of the state at the time (anyone remember the name?) a US Visa. No University Chairs will be created in its name. There is not even an entry in Wikipedia. The Biharis are among the poorest and most underprivileged groups in India, many of them facing discrimination as they seek employment as migrant laborers across India. One wonders why the Biharis have not unleashed a reign of terror across India, despite being the repeated target of attacks, most recently in Mumbai itself. When Poverty, discrimination, even selective targeting during riots and killings from Assam to Mumbai is amply available to Biharis as a justifying "context."

a k ghai
mumbai, India
Jan 09, 2009 12:00 AM
736
Roys,Antulays etc are not only liers and but also are anti Indians
a k ghai
mumbai, India
Jan 09, 2009 12:00 AM
737
This is for the last unbroken illusory image created by
Arundhati to hide the heinous crime

“But of course this isn't that war. That one's still being fought in the Dalit bastis of our villages…”
ARUNDHATI


Let us put the logical weight between
clashes of religion and that of class.
Magnitude of destruction
the clash of religion has made is mammoth
compared to the conflict of class.

Class is there in a society and that is reality.
Exploitation free society is not the
same as classless society. Socialism
strives to achieve exploitation free society, not a
classless society.

Just as a human is not possible without its limbs,
so is the establishment of a classless society not
conceivable.
dip
Dhaka, Bangladesh
Jan 10, 2009 12:00 AM
738
To those who criticize Arundhati Roy, as being an anti-nationalist, a traitor and a terrorist, stop and take a look at what right-wing nationalists who blindly put God and country ahead of truth and justice have given us in America with George W. Bush; an unnecessary and unjust war in Iraq, torture, illegal wiretaps, the suspension of habeas corpus… need I continue? If you (in India) support executing a man as a terrorist, with no proven links to terrorism, simply because the nation demands that someone pay the ultimate price for the sins of another, then I would suggest that you tread lightly. Otherwise, it might be you who India’s Supreme Court decides should be executed for someone else’s crime to satisfy the nation. Thank you Arundhati!
Robert Langdon
Cape Canaveral, United States
Jan 10, 2009 12:00 AM
739
ROBERT LANGDON

The reaction you have noticed here is not hatred.
It is just fear of worshiping evils.
Ms. Arundhati Roy has exactly promoted that
worship especially in her essay “9 is not 11”.

After that horrendous crime in Mumbai she took
an all-out campaign named “9 is not 11”; a hero worship for the terrorists.
Idolization of sin is not at all acceptable.
Yes, she tried her best to justify the crime
with multiple humanitarian issues.
But rejected overwhelmingly by the conscious people as she has chosen wrong time to justify an immoral matter.

One should remember bloodshed will only breed bloodshed. No way to justify any killing synchronizing it with any logical or illogical issues.
How could she approach such raw matter
when her country was suffering excruciating pain?

It was a complete shocker.
dip
Dhaka, Bangladesh
Jan 11, 2009 12:00 AM
740
Arundhati Roy is a fanatical Christian and can never see anything good in Hindus.our country is infested with many of these Christian and Muslim fanatics carrying Hindu names to easily fool the Hindus by masquerading themselves as leftists.Arundhati,Rahul Gandhi,Teesta Setalvad are all enjoying the stupidity of the Hindus.
S.S.Nagaraj
Bangalore, India
Jan 16, 2009 12:00 AM
741
Roy, you are writing for the wrong audience. People read and understand English in India is not even ten percenatge. So better write in Hindi or some other language, it would reach vast amount of Audience and you also will also get very good response from them. Now you are writing only for elite or middle class people and western people.

Why dont you start your essay from British conolial ruling, cheating, audacity and slavery? I think that would give answer to all your questions. Then people who are telling you brave, great writer behave(Westners)

Cirtizing everyone in the world even will not solve any problem. I think you never appreciated anybody in your life.

All the problems are not started after independence, everything has a beginging before that. I would appreciate if you compare the minorities rights and freedom with other countries and India? You may be very surprised.

Just Imagine, In India Hindus are minority what will happen? I doubt that religion may be in the history today.

murugan
chennai, India
Jan 24, 2009 12:00 AM
742
Well, Mr Zaved Ahmed Khan, I am one of those who oppose Ms Roy, and I give away a sizeable part of my earnings - I am a normal professional, not rich - for less fortunate ones (without regard to caste or religion). So, this is neither here or there. Even if others have not done anything, they have same right to question her ideas and motives, as she has of others.
Gopi Maliwal
Hong Kong, China
Jan 27, 2009 12:00 AM
743
"What we're experiencing now is blowback, the cumulative result of decades of quick fixes and dirty deeds. The carpet's squelching under our feet."

Arundhati Roy's most myopic view comes across. In her above paragraph, decades means the years in which babri masjid,Gujarat occurred.I think she can be forgiven as she is not old enough to know the ancient history of our great nation,Kashmir's past or the workings of the congress under Indira Gandhi's rule.
The whole essay revolves around demeaning the keepers of security.She has taken this extreme step & falls into the same pit as Arnab Chowdhury etc by taking the opposite stance totally.
Intellectual infancy may be a true description of the young generation who we see on news channels.But they have done their job well during the Mumbai nightmare. We needed their praise of the army,police. We needed their conviction that India can stand upto this. We needed the follow up of Pkistan's role in this.

I "thank the Lord" that we dont have many Intellectually mature persons like Ms.Roy. with the views that this essay projects.


sudha
doha, Qatar
Mar 31, 2009 12:00 AM
744
Arundhati seems to have an extremely bleak opinion of everything to do with the indian state. Extremism including hers is a disease. However, as one extreme counters another and since amidst her hyperbole, every few lines, one really sensible one does come along, we need to tolerate her. Perhaps even need her in the public discourse.
Vinayak
Bangalore, India
Jul 12, 2009 12:00 AM
745
salaams abba. Read this article
Asad Baig
Mumbai, India
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