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Books  / Interviews Web | Dec 19, 2008
For The Record
'Brutality, Incompetence And Cynical Duplicity'
'Arundhati Roy wrote: You have a very simple choice: Justice or civil war... I want to really take issue with this. I do not believe that the project of the terrorists has anything to do with justice.'
The following remarks by Mr Salman Rushdie have been excerpted and transcribed from the audio recording of the panel discussion -- "Understanding the Mumbai Attacks" -- in which he participated along with authors Mira Kamdar and Suketu Mehta. It was organised jointly by the Asia Society, the South Asian Journalist Association (SAJA) and the Indo-American Arts Council. The discussion was moderated by Rome Hartman, executive producer for BBC World News America. The full audio, as well as the video of the conversation is available on the website of the Asia Society

***

[Opening Remarks]

Well, first of all, I think, it is very difficult, as you said in the beginning, to articulate exactly how deeply we were affected by what we saw. I think there were many days when it was almost impossible to think, let alone to speak about what was happening, specially I think to those of us who grew up on those streets. And by the way, I think we have all agreed before hand that we are going to call the city by its proper name, which is Bombay. It is Bombay that was attacked and not Mumbai. And, by the way, I cannot say, and this is the only time I will say it, the words "Chhatrapati Shivaji Terminus". This railway station is and always will be VT. And so, because these are the names of love, the others are the artificial names imposed by the politicians. But these are the names of the city that we love.

I think it was something like a perfect storm that happened in Bombay, that you put together the incredible brutality of the killers, fuelled as we now know by industrial quantities of cocaine and other drugs that were found in their bodies and in their possessions. Combine that with, what I think is generally seen as a collapse of the Indian response, the Indian security response really was negligible. Three hours to get a fire engine to the Taj, a hotel that stands right next to the water. Twelve hours before the commandos were able to go in because they didn't have a plane to get to Bombay. Etc Etc. So that's the second part of it.

But I think the third part of it that has become increasingly clear is perhaps the dominant element and that is the absolute duplicity and hypocrisy of the Pakistani state. So much so that even today, the President of Pakistan, interviewed by the BBC said there is no evidence that Pakistan was involved in this. Even when the father of the surviving terrorist has identified his son as being a Pakistani, the President of Pakistan says that is not evidence.

So here you have these three forces coming together: Brutality, incompetence and cynical duplicity and what that did was to create this horror.

I wanted to read just a brief passage about -- since we are talking about our beloved place, so let's talk about that. This is a passage I wrote in my novel, The Moor's Last Sigh and it was written actually after another series of atrocities in 1993 explosions in Bombay which themselves were in the aftermath of the destruction of Babri Masjid and so it's in that context. But I think it applies, and it certainly applies to what I think about, about the city...

"Bombay was central, had been so from the moment of its creation: the bastard child of a Portuguese-English wedding, and yet the most Indian of Indian cities. In Bombay all Indias met and merged. In Bombay, too, all-India met what-was-not-India, what came across the black water to flow into our veins. Everything north of Bombay was North India, everything south of it was the South. To the east lay India's East, and to the west, the world's West. Bombay was central; all rivers flowed into its human sea.

It was an ocean of stories; we were all its narrators, and everybody talked at once. What magic was stirred into that insaan-soup, what harmony emerged from that cacophony! "In Punjab, Assam, Kashmir, Meerut--in Delhi, in Calcutta--from time to time they slit their neighbours' throats and took warm showers, or red bubble-baths, in all that spuming blood. They killed you for being circumcised and they killed you because your foreskins had been left on. Long hair got you murdered and haircuts too; light skin flayed dark skin and if you spoke the wrong language you could lose your twisted tongue. In Bombay, such things never happened. --Never, you say? -- OK: Never is too absolute a word. Bombay was not inoculated against the rest of the country, and what happened elsewhere, the language business for example, also spread into its streets. But on the way to Bombay the rivers of blood were usually diluted, other rivers poured into them, so that by the time they reached the city's streets the disfigurations were relatively slight. -- Am I sentimentalising? Now that I have left it all behind, have I, among my many losses, also lost clear sight? -- It may be said I have; but still I stand by my words. O Beautifiers of the City, did you not see that what was beautiful in Bombay was that it belonged to nobody, and to all? Did you not see the everyday live-and-let-live miracles thronging its overcrowded streets?

Bombay was central. In Bombay, as the old founding myth of the nation faded, the new god-and-mammon India was being born. The wealth of the country flowed through its exchanges, its ports. Those who hated India, those who sought to ruin it, would need to ruin Bombay..."

....

[On Pakistan's Dysfunctional Power Elite]

We need to say something about where they came from. And about the enormous resentment that the Pakistani power elite has felt about the success of India. There is this you know this thriving... I mean, I think of course we can all, you know, elucidate the many things that are wrong with India. That would be an interesting discussion but... another one. We don't have time.

But here you have this country that is, broadly speaking, democratic and, broadly speaking, economically successful and, broadly speaking, free. On the other hand you have this basket case, you know, where the Punjabis hate the Sindhis and everybody hates the North West Frontier and Balochistan is trying to get away.

Laughs

And half the country already got away, you know. So you have this decreasingly functioning society which has no institutions on which a free society could be built, in which the army is increasingly Islamicised, the army leadership is increasingly Islamicised, the ISI -- the Inter Services Intelligence, the Pakistani intelligence agency -- is totally out of control and the civilian politicians are not that much better. President Zardari, I remember, when, as Benazir Bhutto's husband, he was known as Mr 10 Per cent because of the amount of government money he had siphoned off. And then in Pakistan they decided that it was unfair, unjust to call him Mr Ten Per Cent. So they changed his nickname to Mr Twenty Per Cent which was a clearer reflection of his actual skills.

Here you have a country in the face of the world's agreement about what happened, just blindly refusing to accept it: "No, we don't know. What is the evidence? Where is the evidence? Show us the evidence. And we will fearlessly prosecute them..."

...

[Interjecting when a reference to root causes and justice came up]

Speaking of the roots, I think one of the, I think one of the most worrying developments in the aftermath of the attacks, has been the willingness of a number of commentators, particularly on the left, to place the question of roots in the concept of justice.

People have said that the the reason for these attack was that there is injustice, that Indian Muslims are economically disadvantaged in India, that they have much lower educational qualifications, they have much higher unemployment rates and then of course there is the great injustice of Kashmir. As the argument be that while those injustices exist that is the thing from which these actions spring.

And as our colleague Arundhati Roy wrote the other night, as she ended her article, she said: You have a very simple choice: Justice or civil war -- and you choose. As Suketu said, that is the entire spectrum of possibility from A to B.

[Suketu Mehta on his part agreed with what Rushdie had to say and pointed out that the attack on Parliament in 2001 for example predated the Gujarat pogroms]

[Laughs]

I want to really take issue with this. Because I mean, I think, anyone who knows what I have written in my life knows that I am quite seriously concerned with the condition of Kashmir. And I think that Indian authorities are culpable in the way in which they have treated the ordinary people of Kashmir but so are Jaish-e-Mohammad and Lashkar-e-Toiba.

And you have the people of Kashmir caught between a rock and a hard place. You know, you have a kind of fanatic Islam arriving from Pakistan which is not in keeping with the sufistic Islam that is traditional in Kashmir. So you have this Arabised Islam being forced upon people on the one hand, at the point of a gun, and on the other hand you have Indian security forces treating all Kashmiris as if they are terrorists, and often very brutally. So that's there.

But the point I want to make is that I do not believe that the terrorists such as these -- I do not believe that their project has anything to do with justice.

Ask yourself the question that if the Kashmir problem were resolve tomorrow, if Israel-Palestine reached a lasting peace, do we believe that al-Qaeda would disband? Do we believe that Lashkar-e-Toiba and Jaish-e-Mohammad would put their guns down and beat them into plough-shears and say we would now be farmers because our job is done.

I mean the point about is that is laughable, right? And the point about that is that that is not their project. Their project is power. This is a power grab by the most obscurantist, revanchist, old-fashioned, medievalist idea of modern culture that attempts to drag the world back into the middle ages at the point of modern weaponry ...

[The moderator: "You mentioned Arundhati Roy. This leads me to a question that came from the audience and I want to make sure that we get to as many of these as we can. This question mentions another point that was made in this article, in which the phrase was "the Taj is not our icon" and a criticism that ... and I know you have written lovingly about the Taj...  Address that criticism,that it may be somebody's icon but is not ours" [Arundhati Roy in her article had actually written: "We're told one of these hotels is an icon of the city of Mumbai. That's absolutely true. It's an icon of the easy, obscene injustice that ordinary Indians endure every day."--Ed ]

I thought that particular remark in her piece was disgusting. The idea that the deaths of the rich don't matter because they are rich is disgusting. The idea that the 12 members of the Taj staff, who heroically gave their lives to save many of the guests, are to be discounted because they were presumably the lackeys of the rich -- this is nauseating. This is amoral. And she should be ashamed of herself.

[On the ineptitude of the response -- why the private sector is dynamic, efficient and responsive while the public sector is not]

Because of the venality and cynicism of so much of the political class in India, which I think now people in India feel an enormous amount of scorn and contempt for. You saw what happened after the attacks, that the father of one of the police officers who was killed, was was visited by the chief minister of a state, he threw him out. He didn't want to have anything to do with you. And that's a pretty general attitude towards politicians in India. I mean, look at the scale of how bad the response was.

We now hear that Indian intelligence had informed the coast guard on that evening that they were expecting an attack -- a Lashkar-e-Toiba attack by sea. That evening. And the coast guard had been alerted to go and find the ship. They failed to find it. The Taj hotel had been repeatedly told about an attack by sea and to beef up their security which they did for about two months and then nothing happens and so they took it down, the security down again. And then the attack happened.

The police officers who were wearing bullet-proof vests were wearing clothing so old that it could not stop the high velocity rifles that were being used and so three senior police officers were killed within moments of the attack beginning because the bullets just went through their protective armour.

The commandos who eventually went in were actually based in Delhi and had no dedicated aircraft. So they couldn't get to Bombay. It took them 12 hours to enter the buildings. And as I say, the fire engines. In a city that sits by the sea, hotels that sit by the water were allowed to burn for three hours before water got to them.

Well, this... People could of course with some legitimacy say that the United States was caught unprepared as well you know, and the radios didn't work in the wall street zone...and you could of course make a similar catalogue of errors about what happened on that day on Sept 2001...But it was awful to watch as this pile of mistakes grow, while meanwhile the city was burning...The fact that there were - four terrorists in the Taj - who could hold on the Indian army for four days...when they were coked out of their heads, you know, snorting coke in one nostril, while executing people...I mean, the idea that they were allowed to go on...for four days is unthinkable...

So yes, I agree with Mira that to change the emphasis to these kind of draconian security laws is wrong because what you need to do is clearly to fix absence of a security machinery, you know...You need armoured vehicles, you need proper body protection, you need aircraft to bring people to the scene of the crime, you need a coastguard which can guard the coast, you know... I mean, India has a very long coastline. And y'know Karachi is only a hundred mile away from Bombay... So the idea that there can be an attack by sea is obvious, you know...And as I say, there were warnings...American intelligence says it told the Indian intelligence, many times. Indian intelligence itself says that it told the Bombay police, many times about it pand yet there is this colossal failure. The problem is there and to put it in the other place is to put it in the wrong place.

And I do mean to say, that when Suketu was talking about the quality of the city is what annoyed people. There is a wonderful remark by, I think, HL Mencken that "Puritanism is the haunting fear that someone somewhere might be happy"...And, and I do think that happiness is a part of the thing that really, along with Cocaine, gets up their nose. The idea that, as Suketu said, that this is a city of pleasure makes it, in the same way as the people who tried to bomb night clubs in England, y'know, said that it was legitimate because there were these slags in short skirts there, y'know, who deserved to die because of their sexuality, y'know, so there is in this whole area of the Islamic terrorist project a real dislike of open society, of the way people ordinarily live with each other. And they attack it. ....

[On the role of Media]

I think it is the wrong argument. I mean, what would you have the media do? To look away from the burning building? To look away from the slaughter in the railway station? Not to cover the siege of the Chabad House?

[Did the media end up aiding and informing the terrorists?]

Well there were one or two moments of clumsiness like that where it was reported on NDTV -- which I was, I was in London at that time and I was glued to 24 hours NDTV there... because you can get it on satellite ... and someone reported that they received a phone call from a room on such and such floor of the Taj .... which then informed the listening terrorists where people were...I mean that clearly was a blunder... and I think there were no doubt others, but I think on the whole it is the wrong argument. That's not where the problem was. I mean, you had the journalists doing their best, you know, and sometimes the best of journalism is not good enough...but that doesn't mean that that's where the problem was... the problem I think is elsewhere ...

...

There was a problem of the rolling news that an enormous amount of what was announced as news was almost immediately afterwards, we were told, was not correct... So one minute these killers were supposed to be British, y'know or some of them anyway, and five minutes later they weren't. And originally, there were 20 of them, then there 25, then it turned out that there were only 10 of them ... and maybe some got away... you know, They came by ship, No they didn't. The ship had been arrested by the coastguard which was supposed to have been the mothership. Oh, maybe there wasn't such a ship. They had a room in the Taj hotel. No they didn't. They were members of the hotel staff. No, they weren't. You know, so it was very difficult, I think, which is why I didn't know what to write at that time because the facts were changing so much.

[On the real issue: Pakistan]

These are not the causes of what happened. I mean, this is no doubt significant and We should debate how the media covers events, whichever country we are in. we can no doubt say, they got this wrong, they got that right, you know, but this is not the issue. The issue is -- and it is important as there is a new President due to take office in this country -- what should be the world's policy towards Pakistan? It is a very important matter right now. Because you have the British Prime Minister two days ago, Gordon Brown said that British intelligence, following up leads of various terrorists' activities, they informed him that 75 per cent of what they were studying led back to Pakistan. All the roads of world's terrorism lead to Pakistan

....

But it needs to be very very tough, that argument. It has to be made with enormous force. Who makes it? Let's start with the President of the United States. For the last years, since the 911 attacks, the American government policy towards Pakistan was to give them a lot of aid and to treat them as an ally in the war on terror.

So billions of dollar have been handed over first, mostly, to the Musharraf government and now its successor.

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Daily Mail
COLLAPSE COMMENTS :
HAVE YOUR SAY
Jan 02, 2009 12:00 AM
226
2/1/09
>>”Pakistan is an Islamic terrorist state run by the military.”
VARUN SHEKHAR
TORONTO CANADA

So, what we are experiencing is the resurgence of Islam not only in Pakistan but also in Muslim majority as well as minority countries. The resurgence has shown that “Islam is the solution” to the problems of morality, identity, meaning, and faith, but not to the problems of social injustice, political repression, economic backwardness, and military weakness.

These failures could generate widespread disillusionment with political Islam, a reaction against it, and a search for the alternative solution to these problems. Countries like Malaysia – Turkey – Indonesia (if they continue their economic progress), might provide an “Islamic Model” for development and the world may enjoy a sigh of relief.
dip
Dhaka, Bangladesh
Jan 02, 2009 12:00 AM
225
Taqi, thanks for saying that; at least two posters in this message board have used the word "pagan"- Augustus and Sundar Reddy a.k.a "hard facts". Criminals, no?
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Jan 02, 2009 12:00 AM
224
Mariyah Moten is a despicable propagandist for Islam and Pakistan. Probably parrots the crap that Pakistan stood up for freedom, democracy, liberty and pluralism against totalitarianism during the cold war. What a sick farce. Actually, Indians did a much better job of that while not having a single American military base or missile launch pad, or dictator receiving arms and aid. What more proof for Mumbai does Pakistan need; India has provided more than enough. Pakistan is an Islamic terrorist state run by the military. Period.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Dec 30, 2008 12:00 AM
223
it does not matter how much you say ( and all the muslims does that) islam has been shown as a violent religion by its violent followers.. muslims never accept that there is something wrong in their text.. yes others do have them, but other people do not follow the text in toto..and by the way,why are you living in infidellands you muslims so hate.. muslims are obsessed by religion ad that is why they are always at the bottomof the socialscale..whether it is in India,UK or USA...
GEORGE
LONDON UNITED KINGDOM

Sir!, I know you have not addressed the above mail to me but I'd like to put in my two bits into this general conversation.
I am in no way justifying the acts of fundamentalist Muslims -they are criminals, certainly, but it is not Muslims alone who are at fault - how then would you justify the slave trade, apartheid, the KKK, assaults on Vietnam, and Iraq, the two World Wars, Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, etc?
The texts (Qur'an, like the Bible, the Geeta, etc) are to be understood in context and I agree with you 100% that fundamentalist Muslims (and there are plenty of them) go by the literal word and create problems for themselves and others too. This is a serious thing and needs correction right away.
Sir! All these words, 'ifidels', 'Pagans', etc are part of the lexicon of criminals and cannot be blanket applied to the whole community. The bounties of God are for all and if one lives by the laws of the land and works honestly, religion is no barrier at all. Are there not millions of non Muslims doing well in the Middle East?
Coming to being at the bottom of the social scale, again this is subjective and time bound. While it is true for the most part in today's context, one could take a macro view and include the centuries when Arabs were the enlightened ones and Europe was in the dark ages.
Summing up my points, agreed fundamentalism is criminal and must be destroyed from its roots but, as Jesus said so well, 'Let him who has never sinned cast the first stone.'
Azeem Taqi
Nashville, United States
Dec 30, 2008 12:00 AM
222
George Behen,

I love US of A and I know many Muslims who do too. At the same time, I know quite a few non-Muslims who are not fond of this country. Don't forget, all the Indians hated USA during the Cold War when India were supporting the evil Commies.

Welcome to Capitalism!

I also welcome you to USA, the best country in the world-ONE NATION UNDER GOD, WITH LIBERTY AND JUSTICE FOR ALL! Truly, it is only in USA that you will get to know what 'liberty', 'justice' and 'for all' realy means. Supreme court will not hang ANYONE without proof by saying "The collective conscience of the society will only be satisfied if capital punishment is awarded to the offender."(Supreme court of India). Here, men and women of the Police give their lives to protect yours and equally mine, a Muslim. People like Narinder Modhi, Praveen Togadia, Babu Bajrangi and Col. Prohit will also be put to justice swiftly, rather than just Muslims as in India.
American police work deligently to serve and protect everyone rather than just writng open letters to essayists. In 2006, Indian Gov't admitted that compared to Hindus, Muslims have been provided far less opportunities for development. But continually failed to do anything about it. But then again just as many Hindus are at the rock bottom as any minorities in India. Indian gov't does not provide any social services what so ever to anyone. To be lower on hunger index than Sudan and Somalia must take a lot of work from Idian gov't in the opposite direction. Didn't they have a drought in Somalia. None of that happens here in USA. Jews, Christians, Muslims and all others have equal opportunities in the pursuit of happiness.

But one thing that should really attract you to USA is that here no one will call you a bloody Paki(hahaha...I know in Britain they call you that; they call all Indians that. It gotta kill you all. That is doubly sinister; only brits can be so evil). You gotta love that social-scale! HAHAHAHA!

Finally, you are right, it really does not matter what we say. What matters is what you say. THANK YOU FOR MAKING ISLAM THE FASTEST GROWING RELIGION IN THE WORLD! And with further help of people like you, it will become the most widely practised as well. so keep up the good work!
mariyah a moten
houton, United States
Dec 30, 2008 12:00 AM
221
Azeem Taqi ji,

The word 'Islam' does have conotation into the word 'peace', though it denotes 'total submission to God'. I believe it refers to the 'peace' one feels in total submission to God; but in no way it is asking us to be in peace with the injustices of our 'self' and our world. Hence, the 'jihad' which means 'struggle' against those injustices.
mariyah a moten
houton, United States
Dec 29, 2008 12:00 AM
220
motu bhai from usa..
it does not matter how much you say ( and all the muslims does that) islam has been shown as a violent religion by its violent followers.. muslims never accept that there is something wrong in their text.. yes others do have them, but other people do not follow the text in toto..and by the way,why are you living in infidellands you muslims so hate.. muslims are obsessed by religion ad that is why they are always at the bottomof the socialscale..whether it is in India,UK or USA...
george
london, United Kingdom
Dec 29, 2008 12:00 AM
219
Azeem.. whether Quran describes "Jannat" i.e. heaven as a place for unmitigated sex qith the virgins or not, I am afraid this libido is brainwashed into the jehadis of 9/11, 7/11 or 26/11 in the name of Islam (as evident from their confession and diaries) by the corrupt Mullahs and that is what most common non-Islamic(Kafer's)people of this world are making out of your religion "Islam" which ironically means peace ...
I wish I could know the feelings of the fairer sex in Muslim community about it..
SHYAMAL BARUA
KOLKATA INDIA

To Shyamal ji,
'Jannat' is the Arabic word for what is called 'Heaven' in English, and 'Swarg' in Hindi, a place where the good shall be rewarded.
If you choose to take the fantastically imagined description given by fundamentalists as Islam, that's your misplaced prerogative.
Sir! I too could cherry pick statements by idiots from various faiths and demean them but that, I know is sinful. I bow my head respectfully before every faith, text, and culture, respect everyone's line of thought and do not speak ill of anything sacrosanct to anyone.
Coming the meaning of Islam which you mentioned is 'peace', no Sir! Islam means 'submission' and in the conetxt means 'submission to God and God alone' - whether one addresses the One Almighty God as God, Bhagwan, Allah, Parmatma, or by any other name is immaterial and, he is not the God of any community or people, he is the Lord of all and each.
Coming to the issue of the fairer sex about it....you could check out with someone you know.
Whether widows or blacks or so called lower castes or native Indians or whatever, society as a whole has been unfair to the weaker group. This is wrong but is an all encompassing phenomenon and not restricted to Islam.
People make a joke about multiple marriages by Arabs - the concept of polygamy in not a law but was an option in a situation when women were economically weak and young widows were left poor and alone and certainly not acceptable today.If some Arabs misuse it today, it is incorrect to blame the faith just as Hinduism cannot be blamed for 'sati', and the caste system nor Christianity for 'slavery.'
Azeem Taqi
Nashville, United States
Dec 28, 2008 12:00 AM
218
MARIYAH A MOTEN
HOUTON UNITED STATES


No, thanks I wanna dedicate those for humanity destroyer – jihadis.
dip
Dhaka, Bangladesh
Dec 28, 2008 12:00 AM
217
DIP from Dhaka,
this is from merriam-webster dict.:

Main Entry: fierce
Pronunciation: \ˈfirs\
Function: adjective
Inflected Form(s): fierc·er; fierc·est
Etymology: Middle English fiers, from Anglo-French fer, fers, fiers, from Latin ferus wild, savage; akin to Greek thēr wild animal
Date: 14th century
1 a: violently hostile or aggressive in temperament b: given to fighting or killing : pugnacious
2 a: marked by unrestrained zeal or vehemence b: extremely vexatious, disappointing, or intense
3: furiously active or determined
4: wild or menacing in appearance
— fierce·ness noun
synonyms fierce , ferocious , barbarous , savage , cruel mean showing fury or malignity in looks or actions. fierce applies to humans and animals that inspire terror because of their wild and menacing aspect or fury in attack . ferocious implies extreme fierceness and unrestrained violence and brutality . barbarous implies a ferocity or mercilessness regarded as unworthy of civilized people . savage implies the absence of inhibitions restraining civilized people filled with rage, lust, or other violent passion . cruel implies indifference to suffering and even positive pleasure in inflicting it .


Any other words u wanna learn?
mariyah a moten
houton, United States
Dec 28, 2008 12:00 AM
216
Master Rushdie( since your logic is at 4th grade level),

When you talk about India it is all 'general' and 'at large', but when you talk about Pakistan u speak specifically of punjabis hating sindhis, and they all hating pashtuns and balouchistan drifting away. I guess u r completely oblivious to the fact that similar problems at much greater level exist in India, and more of them naturally since India is bigger and more complex demographically. I guess they don't teach you Indian Studies in 4th grade. But then again you are a paki to begin with. Don't they call you that in britain! I can't believe u made me stoop so low to yourlevel.

Furthermore, you refused to see how a heart, filled with extreme pain, anger, frustration and anguish due to, let's say, not only Bajrangi's acts of ethnic clensing but also the India's INJUSTICE system that let him free, of a survivor would wanna pick up arms. THIS IS ULTIMATELY DISGUSTING ON YOUR PART! But I am not saying this is the case all the time; fanaticism is also a root cause sometimes, as history of all the religions of the world is full of examples of that.

And Oh yah, just because media says Kasab is paki so Zardari should believe it. Why should he not believe the media when they reported that these terrorists were trained in britain, and I can go on and on. Indian torture only got this much out of him; send this so called kasab to GTMO and he will admit that he is osama himself.

One must have hard proofs to try someone and esp. convict someone, or have we all forgotten that. But I forgot this is India, where people go free with all the proofs against them and vice versa. But please nobody worry cause there will be no terrorist that will come out of these injustices as Master Rush-die has so beutifully put.
Bravo! man Bravo! you should be next Indian PM!
you bloody Paki!
mariyah a moten
houton, United States
Dec 28, 2008 12:00 AM
215
“R. Scott Appleby, an expert on religions of the world at Notre Damme, points out that Budhist Monks in Sri Lanka have been the fiercest terrorists in recent years.”

What is the superlative word of ‘fiercest’ ?!?
…so that we can use it to depict world wide mayhem.
dip
Dhaka, Bangladesh
Dec 28, 2008 12:00 AM
214
Going back to Ms. Rose claiming Islam is a fascist political system that is mascarading as a religion.
First, Islam is not only a political system but also a financial system, a socio-economic system, a legal system and the like. In other words, Muslims like to think of it as a Complete Final Religion.
It is in the nature of all religions to be fascist to maintain control. Every single religion in the world promotes its own supremacy. Actualy, Islam is the only religion that give rights to religious minonrities explicitly, though with conditions. But I am in no way saying that Muslims have not, and will not commit injustices that the followers of every other religion have commited and will commit, as well.
R. Scott Appleby, an expert on religions of the world at Notre Damme, points out that Budhist Monks in Sri Lanka have been the fiercest terrorists in recent years.
mariyah a moten
houton, United States
Dec 28, 2008 12:00 AM
213
Ganesan ji, you are right as I can't seem to find where I read that! I am mistaken about the 'Light' part of the String Theory. It is actualy resonating vibrant energy. Also, Hawkins started supporting the String theory in 1995. So, Thanks!
As I correct myself, even this theory is in trouble! Some people have started calling it a fad. Let's see what is next.
mariyah a moten
houton, United States
Dec 28, 2008 12:00 AM
212
I would have preferred a much major defeat for Congress in the Jammu region, but as is the result is indeed good news.

WWhoever forms the new govt should well remember that hindus in the region should NOT be taken for a ride. They must be treated with respect.

Ganesan
Nj, USA
Dec 28, 2008 12:00 AM
211
" He seems to be in transition to move on to this new theory called String Theory."

People have been working on the string theory for nearly three decades. And there are no strings of LIGHT.

A string is a one dimensional object and has tension when taut. Also strings can be joined and broken at will. String theory is being used as a basis for the multiverse model of the universe.

Ganesan
Nj, USA
Dec 28, 2008 12:00 AM
210
Then Rose happened to mention EVOLUTION! and tried to say that since Islam does not believe in it, it stands discredited (a fourth grade logic indeed). In doing so she has discredited Judaio Christian beliefs as well as other pre-Islamic beliefs that very easily dates back to Abraham (PBUH).
On the contrary to her belief, If one does research, she can find that the theory of evolution is missing several major evolutionary links between species that were supposed to have been found years ago. Several scientists have stopped looking even and moved on to bigger and better theories. And this is not the first time it has happened in Science. Several of the Newton's laws were revoked by Einstein and his theories of relativity. Currently, Stephen Hawkings have been video-taped as saying that the Big Bang theory is flawed in that it fails at the beginning and at the end of the big bang. He seems to be in transition to move on to this new theory called String Theory. They have gone deeper into matter than quarks and found that there are strings. But they are not just any ordinary strings; they are strings of LIGHT! Just about all the major religions have been for centuries associating Light with God. Hence, "Let there be Light!"
mariyah a moten
houton, United States
Dec 28, 2008 12:00 AM
209
Also Rose claimed that The Holy Quran is trying to lift material from the Old and New Testaments.
TRUE! but only half way!
The Holy Quran repeats the message going as far back as the Prophet Abraham (may be even further back). The Holy Quran Claims that the message of all the Prophets and the Messengers of God was one: total submission to God Almighty. Though it further says that the message was distorted after the Prophets past on. In the Holy Quran, God promises that He will protect the integrity of the Holy Quran in its entirety to eternity. This is clearly seen in the preservation of Arabic words of the Holy Quran not only in writing but also committed into memory of millions of Muslims, from the time of the revelation of the first word by Gabrial.
mariyah a moten
houton, United States
Dec 28, 2008 12:00 AM
208
Rose also tried to tell a lie that the Holy Quran contradicts itself as to say '6 Days' at one place and then say '8 days' the other. Let's just say for argument sake that it is the case:
First, she and/or the person she is so blindly following in this matter are the only two people to catch that in the Book!

(This leads me to clarify the felacy about the Quran in its written form. As the Angel Gabrial was revealing the verses to the Prophet, He was committing them all to his memory since he did not know how to write. Then he would recite the verses verbatim to his scribe whose name escapes me at the moment. This scribe remained the only scribe throught out who maintained the Quranic menuscripts and he was the one who released the Quran in its final collective form as instructed by the Prophet, after a few years of the Prophet's death. The Phrophet was receiving the revelation even at his deathbed. In addition to this trusted scribe, there were hundreds of Prophet's companions who committed the whole Quran to their memory with the Prophet till His death. They used to recite it to each other and to the Prophet everyday to eliminate any mistakes. After years of intense and rigorous proofreading, they released the final version as it exits today. There are still thousands of Muslims who keep the tradition of reciting the Holy Quran front to back and back to front everyday.) So for her to say that the Quran was written centuries after the death of the Prophet is also dead wrong and misleading.
Second, the word 'day' is not clear. Whose day? our day or God's day? It has been proven in experiments that were design to test the Einstein's theory of relativity, that the atomic clocks ticked slower at very high speeds. So just imagine what would happen at the speed of light!
And...
Finally, 'number of days' in this regard is not relevent at all in any way what so ever . . .
mariyah a moten
houton, United States
Dec 28, 2008 12:00 AM
207
One of the commenters called Rose tried to discredit the Holy Quran and/or the Prophet Muhammed(PBUH)by claiming that the words used in the chapter called "Lahab" Can't be God's words, because they are cruel. Lemme bring u all upto to speed about this thing called the Wrath of God. It is a well known Judaio-Christian Islamic tradition backed by Holy Books and verbal legends that God have destroyed several nations due to their infidelity, disrespect, and out right physical attacks on the respective Prophets sent to them by God. Prophet Noah's story is well-known in this regard. (BTW, Muslims(only) don't believe that Prophet Jesus was crucified or killed by any man, which is more consistent with the rest of the traditions that warned of the destructions of nations that tried to kill their Prophets). In addition the whole concept of Hell is claimed to be the most cruel of all, intentinally. Abu Lahab was The prophet's uncle and the fiercest oponent to the message of Islam. He raised his hands to hurt the Prophet and Abu Lahab's wife used to lay thorns in the path of the Prophet. This chapter was the foreshadowing of what was to happen to Abu Lahab and his wife specifically and to the enemies of the Prophet in general. And they all did perish as history is the witness to that.
mariyah a moten
houton, United States
Dec 26, 2008 12:00 AM
206
>>"He(sic.Muhammed) must have misunderstood them as virgin-girls, given his propensity for desire for the opposite sex. Perhaps he might have talked only of 72 yoginees or virgins, instead of 272, since most of the common organic product molecules need only some 72 of the 272 elements on the table."-Guru Seshadri..

Ha..Ha..Ha..Guruji, Whether the above hypothesis makes any sense or not, but I am impressed by your logic of reasoning ...and Azeembhai, whether Quran describes "Jannat" i.e. heaven as a place for unmitigated sex qith the virgins or not, I am afraid this libido is brainwashed into the jehadis of 9/11, 7/11 or 26/11 in the name of Islam (as evident from their confession and diaries) by the corrupt Mullahs and that is what most common non-Islamic(Kafer's)people of this world are making out of your religion "Islam" which ironically means peace ...

I wish I could know the feelings of the fairer sex in Muslim community about it..
Shyamal Barua
kolkata, India
Dec 26, 2008 12:00 AM
205
Did anyone see the letter written by the SOB Chidambaram to the chief ministers? I mean, the arrogance of the man!! These guys were sleeping for four and half years and the SOB has the galls to lecture others.

The SOB writes "There is no time to lose and therefore I sincerely hope that you will implement the following suggested measures before you attend the meeting on January 6, 2009"

The sheer arrogance from the SOB takes one's breath away. No time to lose!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You dolts were sleeping for four and half years goddammit.

And what will he do if the CM fails to implement the measure? I guess the CM will be asked to stand up on the bench with his hands raised. And if the CM fails the next time, he will beat the CM I suppose.

Like in "Swami and Friends", Chidambaram is thinking he is Father Ebenezar and the CMs are Swaminathans.

The man should have a little humility.
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Dec 26, 2008 12:00 AM
204
PB:

Thank you for your christmas greetings.
Om hreem namah krishTaaya eeSa-roopaaya manoo-velaaya Syaamu-velaaya namah Om!.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Dec 26, 2008 12:00 AM
203
"And you have the people of Kashmir caught between a rock and a hard place." and you Salman - caught between all those youthful whores with their jack boots and brown shirts - the ones that you like to stick it to - you fancy cocksucking gutless motherfucker! you ball-less wonder of this world! you could not stand up to the muslim bullies you coward but now you have advice to offer the rest of the world. fuck off and die you rat!
sal bando
bangalore, India
Dec 26, 2008 12:00 AM
202
Seshadriji and Anwar Bhai:

May Christmas bring peace for both of you you and for all!Smile and shake hands and celebrate the birth of the Prince of Peace
p bodepudi
San Diego, United States
Dec 26, 2008 12:00 AM
201
it is quite unbelievable to read this junk from the man who went into hiding immediately after a fatwa was issued for him. he didn't have the balls to stay above ground for even a little while. this gutless little prick is now making noises about cowardice, etc. fuck you rushdie - yeah, man fuck you!
sal bando
bangalore, India
Dec 26, 2008 12:00 AM
200
Seshadri,

>> Power of positive thinking can generate solutions to problems, no doubt, after the negative problems around are fully understood.

The most negative of all problems here and now is you.

>> the countries in which moslems are still a minority can easily ensure that the moslems there will quietly and voluntarity leave to moslem-majority countries by simple measures.

Indian Muslims are as Indian as you, and have as much right to be in India as any other Indians. Lunatics like you should quietly and voluntarily leave the community and go to the nearest lunatic asylum.

>> 'unity of mankind all over'.

That certainly is not your creed. You are just a charlatan and a hypocrite.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 26, 2008 12:00 AM
199
Sing the songs of PEACE and JOY-in memory of the Prince of Peace. Old and young, male and female, Jew and gentile, Hindu and Muslim all want and DESERVE peace and happiness.

Let's pray for all: May God bestow peace and happiness and Health and Wealth on ALL-even more-10-100 timesx more so on Muslim brothers and sisters-On Christian brothers and sisters-on the entire humanity-on animals and plants-mountains and rivers. Lord, bless peace and spontaneous joy, for all. Peace and happiness with for ALL Hindus, Sikhs, Jains and Buddists. And all others

Merry Christamas!
p bodepudi
San Diego, United States
Dec 26, 2008 12:00 AM
198
>>"Don't you have any capacity for positive thinking at all?"

Doing only positive thinking, ignoring the negatives taking place in front of our eyes, can only be myopia.

Power of positive thinking can generate solutions to problems, no doubt, after the negative problems around are fully understood.

For example, the countries in which moslems are still a minority can easily ensure that the moslems there will quietly and voluntarity leave to moslem-majority countries by simple measures:

ban the slaughter of cows, all animals, birds.
tax heavily the import, preparation or consumption of heavy non-veg food like beef.

create field compounds for old animals to live to their old age and die, arrange for gobar-gas production and supply to neighbourhoods from the stools of such animals, birds, the cost of maintaining animal sheds can be recovered from such gas sales.

Most of the non-moslems in west and east and south will have no problem with such progressive vegetarianism, and deliberately high cost for beef and other non-veg food.

Only strongly ummaist moslems will find the situation very difficult, they will quietly move into wholly-islamic countries. My moslem friends tell me they are happy in india mainly bec beef is cheap here, with plenty of cows there, but majority hindus avoiding beef!. High supply, low demand, drive the prices down.

The clear separation in the world betw umma-ists for 'unity of moslemized mankind all over' and uma-ists for 'unity of mankind all over' will come about for peace and welfare, for all.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Dec 26, 2008 12:00 AM
197
I applaud Mr. Rushdie's stand. Finally someone has had the moral clarity and lack of fear to call the cynical bluff of Arundhati Roy and people like her.

Roy is nothing but a one-novel wonder, who has insisted in staying in the limelight with gimmicks and stands directed to obtain attention. The more outrageous, the better, seems to be Ms. Roy's motto. Like so many of her friends, also bent on basking in fame at no matter what cost, Roy is a specialist in claiming to speak for the poor and against the rich.

People like Roy will not feel bad about victims of terrorism without, first and foremost, ascertaining where the victim worked and what what was his/her lot in life. Compassion will be directed only to those deemed pure of affiliations with the rich, you see. Did a poor man happened to work for the Taj? Too bad. He/she can and will be berated.

Pathetic. Kudos to Mr. Rushdie. And I am not surprised with the reactions of some people here, who will love to shower praise in pathetic performances such as that of Roy.
S. Vatian
Los Angeles, United States
Dec 26, 2008 12:00 AM
196
Seshadri,

>>>> >>"Muslim brothers and sisters love their religion as much as Hindu brothers and sisters love Hinduism. When you understand that you will be a much better person than you are now!".
>> Muslim brothers and sisters love only their own sects of their own religion, very much, hate other sects and other religions, kill them, if and when possible, as also any cousins, wives bringing shame to their family or sect.

Why is it that all your interjections have to be small-minded, mean-spirited and negativistic? Don't you have any capacity for positive thinking at all?
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 26, 2008 12:00 AM
195
>>"Muslim brothers and sisters love their religion as much as Hindu brothers and sisters love Hinduism. When you understand that you will be a much better person than you are now!".

One can be a very much better person if the following is fully understood:

Muslim brothers and sisters love only their own sects of their own religion, very much, hate other sects and other religions, kill them, if and when possible, as also any cousins, wives bringing shame to their family or sect. They like to expand the geo-area occuppied by their sect, destroying shrines of others, especially if they have idols for worship, in them.

Christian brothers and sisters love their own denomination of their own religion, but do not hate others. But, they all love hindu brothers and sisters even more and want to convert them, may be bec Jesus = Skanda, son of hindu god Siva.

But, Hindu brothers and sisters love only their own caste or subcaste or or tribe or cult or language-group of Hinduism, hate all other hindus even more than the people of other religions. Hinduism is, thus, by and large, only hatred-ism, of various sorts.

The hindus fear the moslems who may want to kill their men and take over their women and their lands.

Those Hindus, who are proud of their own castes, hate the christian converters, and resist them. Those hindus, who are ashamed of their caste or tribe, are quite willing to gladly convert to christianity, especially if incentives of monetary help or free education are also provided; they then have increased hatred for other hindus, especially of their pre-conversion castes, who have not yet converted.

It takes all sorts to make the world. The only God, behind all religions, is watching over this process in amusement, but delivers acts-of-god punishments, where unjustifiable hurts or kills take place.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Dec 26, 2008 12:00 AM
194
faruki

you claim that we must love and respect each others religions, and each other, even if we have to break our arm to do it.

i disagree. ofcource that means being called a lot of bad and bizarre names.

there is something called freedom of choice.

that gives me the right to codemn any religion or praise it. it gives me the right to praise
some people, and condemn others.

i have already expressed my likes and dislikes,so
i shall say no more.


banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
Dec 25, 2008 12:00 AM
193
Bodepudi,

>> Our record is of exemplary tolerance, love for all-helping minorities, especially Muslim brothers and sisters under stress-at great sacrifices.

Muslim brothers and sisters love their religion as much as Hindu brothers and sisters love Hinduism. When you understand that you will be a much better person than you are now!
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 25, 2008 12:00 AM
192
Merry Christmas (Recall Whittier's familiar lines)

O sabbath rest by Galilee!
O calm of hills above,
Where Jesus knelt to share with thee
The silence of eternity
Interpreted by love!


Glory and Grace, beyond measure & timeless!

p bodepudi
San Diego, United States
Dec 25, 2008 12:00 AM
191
"You have tried to lie your way out of your shameful record, but you will not succeed." Anwar

Our record is of exemplary tolerance, love for all-helping minorities, especially Muslim brothers and sisters under stress-at great sacrifices.

Merry Christams for ALL!


p bodepudi
San Diego, United States
Dec 25, 2008 12:00 AM
190
"Please read and comment on Anwar Patel's post. He is criminally insane".

Merry Christmas dear Anwar and to all friends in this forum. May the New Year bring peace and happiness for all. With Peace within-the peace without shall follow-like a shadow following the object
p bodepudi
San Diego, United States
Dec 25, 2008 12:00 AM
189
Merry Christmas to all!

Let's recall the glory of the Prince of Peace and His message of Love and PEACE for ALL
p bodepudi
San Diego, United States
Dec 25, 2008 12:00 AM
188
Bodepudi,

>> Please read and comment on Anwar Patel's post. His accusations are criminally insane.

How can you say that. I spoke the absolute truth and you know it. Please read my post again: "I read your post knowing full well that it came from a tireless hate merchant of long standing who has openly advocated killing and genocide of my co-religionists, and who has resorted to juvenile antics such as trying to post messages in this forum using my ID. I cannot take a post from such a person seriously."

You have tried to lie your way out of your shameful record, but you will not succeed.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 25, 2008 12:00 AM
187
Bodepudi,

>> Please read the post again.

I read your post knowing full well that it came from a tireless hate merchant of long standing who has openly advocated killing and genocide of my co-religionists, and who has resorted to juvenile antics such as trying to post messages in this forum using my ID. I cannot take a post from such a person seriously.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 25, 2008 12:00 AM
186
Yes Sir! The problem is 'terrorism'. I was specifically replying to something that Seshadri ji had written to me." AT

Azeem Taqi:

Please answer the following. These are common queries among most Hindu families that fought for secular values through out their lives. Please read and comment on Anwar Patel's post. His accusations are criminally insane.

Please help understand the current reform processes going on in the Muslim world, if any. In Turkey? In Iran? Egypt? Saudi Arabia? Pakistan? How can they reconcile to their opposition to conversions and even the presence of few churches/synagogues in Muslim countries while building Mosques where they are a minority?
enjoying the freedoms/civil liberties in the West
while conveniently silent on the same in Muslim countries? Are men and women have equal rights before the law? What is the current status of women's movements in various countries? What do you suggest to hasten such reforms? Is the caste system on its last legs? What do you think should be done to destroy any traces of this evil?
p bodepudi
San Diego, United States
Dec 25, 2008 12:00 AM
185
"who has advocated razing mosques, killing clerics and even carrying out a genocide!"

You are dangerously Insane. I pray for your family

p bodepudi
San Diego, United States
Dec 25, 2008 12:00 AM
184
Anwar Patel:

Please read the post again. Please tell me how many temples and churches are there in Pakistan today, compared to say 10, 20 or 30 years ago. Why the temples had disappeared? Why the Churches were burnt? Why Mumbai terror? Is it not due to intolerance? What are you doing? Look at your post? Are you not ashamed? Why are you so sensitive to TRUTH? Are you insane?
p bodepudi
San Diego, United States
Dec 25, 2008 12:00 AM
183
Bodepudi,

>> while building Mosques where they are a minority

Strange question, like the other hypocritical questions, from this hate pracharak, who has advocated razing mosques, killing clerics and even carrying out a genocide!
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 25, 2008 12:00 AM
182
"Yes Sir! The problem is 'terrorism'. I was specifically replying to something that Seshadri ji had written to me." AT

Please help understand the current reform processes going on in the Muslim world, if any. In Turkey? In Iran? Egypt? Saudi Arabia? Pakistan? How can they reconcile to their opposition to conversions and even the presence of few churches/synagogues in Muslim countries while building Mosques where they are a minority?
enjoying the freedoms/civil liberties in the West
while conveniently silent on the same in Muslim countries? Are men and women have equal rights before the law? What is the current status of women's movements in various countries? What do you suggest to hasten such reforms? Is the caste system on its last legs? What do you think should be done to destroy any traces of this evil?

p bodepudi
San Diego, United States
Dec 25, 2008 12:00 AM
181
AT:>>" Arabic alphabets amount to 786"
Are you saying the arabic script has 786 alphabets? I did not know that.
V.SESHADRI
CHENNAI INDIA

Seshadri ji,
1) When did I say the Arabic language has 786 alphabets? I do not know how many alphabets it has. I clearly gave you an example of how my name would add up: - A=1 Z=26 E=5 E=5 and m=13, thus Azeem would be represented as 50 and in this way explained the symbolism of 786,
2) You are accusing Anwar Patel and me of being in a state of denial regarding your assertion that there is a 'Shiv Lingam' in Mecca. On the contrary, Sir, it is you who is in a state of denial. If there was indeed a 'Shiv Lingam' in Mecca as you assert, every single Muslim in the world would have accepted it, that's a given. I respect your faith but...there are various faiths..Hindu, Jew, Parsi, Muslim, Sikh,...and there are different beliefs...so? follow what you believe and respect the others beliefs, that's all there is to it.
3) If you really know that there is a mention of 72 virgins in the Qur'an, could you please give the reference to it?



You are not the problem. The issue is terrorism. There is the near absence of communications between communities and cultures. You can not build a "bridge to no where", as they say
P BODEPUDI
SAN DIEGO UNITED STATES

Yes Sir! The problem is 'terrorism'. I was specifically replying to something that Seshadri ji had written to me.
Azeem Taqi
Nashville, United States
Dec 24, 2008 12:00 AM
180
Antulay should not be coveted by any political party. If he thinks and talks like that, would you blame (some of) his followers for potentially colluding (acting) with terrorists?
p bodepudi
San Diego, United States
Dec 24, 2008 12:00 AM
179
Seshadri,

>> Such personalized responses 'I against you' become necessary, only bec AP turns to personal abuse...

You routinely abuse people's religions, scriptures, prophets etc everyday. You also habitually insult the ethos and character of a whole community. I would much rather use epithets for you than insult your religion, of which you are not a true representative any way. Also I would much rather call you a hatemonger or liar than say bad things about the whole Hindu community.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 24, 2008 12:00 AM
178
BP:>>"Please stop these silly ego-centric "I" and "You" posts. Try focusing on critical issues of the day-Terrorism, Full Employment, Global Warming, Accountability in Governance"

In full agreement with you. Such personalized responses 'I against you' become necessary, only bec AP turns to personal abuse on all posters not toing his line with terms like idiot, bigot, dumb, ass and so on. Professors are not used to giving abusive replies. Hence, I resort to philo and spiritual answers, trying to understand the basic reasons for his retortive behaviour. I understand your dislike. Shall try to avoid them.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Dec 24, 2008 12:00 AM
177
"Very glad indeed that my comments seem only idiotic and dumb to you" Seshadri

Please stop these silly ego-centric "I" and "You" posts. Try focusing on critical issues of the day-Terrorism, Full Employment, Global Warming, Accountability in Governance, etc
p bodepudi
San Diego, United States
Dec 24, 2008 12:00 AM
176
Seshadri,

>> Spiritually generated perceptions should not be shared with devolutionally oriented souls. The wisdom and veracity in my posts will appear correct and clear, only to those who can be benefitted by them in spiritual growth.

Don't delude yourself. And don't forget that you are asura-beeja.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 24, 2008 12:00 AM
175
S.Barua:>>"please enlighten us about the Sura# of Quran which contains the reward of eternal bliss of the company of 70 virgins aka "hoors" to the jehadis who die for the cause of Islam"

I have no familiarity with all the suras of the quran. But, I can assure you that, if the suras were given to nabhi by gabriel = gaapriya = narada, he would not have said it, in the way it is being interpretted by abu baker, bakaasura- type arabs.

Actually, as per gita, heaven is known as 'swarga'. 'swayam gamyate iti swargah', place where elements, bodies are able to move freely, a gravity-free zone, available in the neighbourhood of Jupiter, where christians expect St. Peter to welcome them to heaven. Narada, gabriel, must have referred only to this heaven, valid for all meritorious human lives, of all religions.

In this swarga, it is said, whatever the souls powerfully desire will be materialized, a body of desired type, apple if desired for eating and so on. The periodic table of atoms has 272 atoms, pictured as the yoginee-devataas [joiner divines, seen as divine virgins in tantra-sastra] on the sree-chakra celebrating the cosmo-mom creative power Sree-devi. Narada = gabriel seems to have talked about these 'atom' virgins to nabhi. He must have misunderstood them as virgin-girls, given his propensity for desire for the opposite sex. Perhaps he might have talked only of 72 yoginees or virgins, instead of 272, since most of the common organic product molecules need only some 72 of the 272 elements on the table.

I am sure narada must be feeling sad for giving the suraan message to nabhi, thinking he was ravan [Jaya, vaikunta gatekeeper], in real repentance! But, Siva's leela is endless, really! Nabhi had to be born once more as aurangazeb in india and get a darsan of ranganatha on raamanuja's pilgrimmage , before really qualifying for liberation. We are left harvesting the seeds sown by him in arabia!.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Dec 24, 2008 12:00 AM
174
AP:>>"your idiotic and dumb comments"

Very glad indeed that my comments seem only idiotic and dumb to you. Spiritually generated perceptions should not be shared with devolutionally oriented souls. The wisdom and veracity in my posts will appear correct and clear, only to those who can be benefitted by them in spiritual growth. Others will feel like ignoring them only.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Dec 24, 2008 12:00 AM
173
"I am a firm believer in 'Each man for himself and God for all.'
Neither do I impose my views on others nor do I want anyone to impose their views on me. I believe in mutual respect and believe in acknowledging and respecting the points of views of others.
Have you ever seen me questioning anyone's views or condemning them?" AT

You are not the problem. The issue is terrorism. There is the near absence of communications between communities and cultures. You can not build a "bridge to no where", as they say

p bodepudi
San Diego, United States
Dec 24, 2008 12:00 AM
172
Seshadri,

>> Thern, why there is so much discussion on the matter?

Because it is a bonanza for hate spewers like you who pick up apocrypha and play keep on repeating it. To be fair there are a lot of bad things that Muslims say about Hinduism which too are not true.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 24, 2008 12:00 AM
171
>>" There is no mention of virgins, 72 or 272 in the Quran!"

Thern, why there is so much discussion on the matter?

They say pakisthan is now a state in denial. AP and AT also seem to be in a state of denial now. Happy holidays and new year to both of you.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Dec 24, 2008 12:00 AM
170
Seshadri,

>> Is this assertion of yours similar to that on the non-existence of a black stone on the kaaba?
Are there many non-authentic qurans?

You are not understanding a word of what Azeem tells you! Why don't you give up instead of embarrassing yourself and your family with your idiotic and dumb comments?
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 24, 2008 12:00 AM
169
AT:>>"To Shyamal ji, and to Seshadri ji,
For the nth time, bhai, there is no mention of 70,72, 272, or whatever 'virgins' anywhere in any authentic Islamic text whatsoever".

Is this assertion of yours similar to that on the non-existence of a black stone on the kaaba?
Are there many non-authentic qurans? Why donot all the mullas of the world give a declaration that the expectation of 72 virgins in martyr's heaven in not authorized by the quran? Perhaps, it will bring down recruitments to al-quida, taliban, LeT and ZuB and a significant reduction in islamic terrorism.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Dec 24, 2008 12:00 AM
168
AT:>>" Arabic alphabets amount to 786"

Are you saying the arabic script has 786 alphabets? I did not know that.

How many letters does the arabic lang have?
40?
1+2=3+3=6+4=10+5=15+6=21+7=28+8=36+9=45+10=
55+11=66+12=78+13=91+14=105+15=120+16=136+17=153+1
8=171+19=190+20=210+21=231+22=253+23=276+24=300+25
=325+26=351+27=378+28=406+29=435+30=465+31=496+32=
528+33=561+34=595+35=630+36=666+37=703+38=741+39=7
80+40=820. It does not seem to add up to 786, unless the prof has made a mistake in arthmatic.
You can check.

The poorvaachaarya of kanchi used to justify the english word GOD, for the totality Absolute, bec G is the 7th letter, O the 15th letter and D the 4th letter, adding up to 26, the total number of english alphabets.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Dec 24, 2008 12:00 AM
167
A.T.:>>"Have you ever seen me questioning anyone's views or condemning them?"

That seems to be your real problem. You wont even condemn anyone's views, however bad. But then, views only lead to plans and actions, demanding the same 'freedom'.

But, the freedom of the finger of any one person ends at the tip of the other's nose. That becomes difficult to ensure, if the world is full of freedom-lovers like you.

Divine action against evil will certainly come, in due course. But, God also wants man to do his duty to fight for justice, as he tells arjuna, 'nimitta-maatram bhava, savyasaachin!', be my dhaarmic instrument in action, using both your hands for the bow!
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Dec 24, 2008 12:00 AM
166
V.SESHADRI
CHENNAI INDIA
But, even after aft 1400 yrs, LeT thinks hindu india should be attacked and destroyed. Of course, you will conveniently disagree, with both myself and the LeT.

Seshadri ji, as regards disagreeing with you, on some things, I agree with you, on some I don't, but I respect your thinking as I respect any view that is different from mine.
God has created everyone of us differently - we look different, have different DNA, voices, and to accept differing views and still be united as humans with the common underlying values of love for others, kindness, etc are,I believe, the right thing to do and be.
To the second point, obviously, I disagree with and abhor the LET and any fundamentalist organization that preaches and practices hate.
I am a firm believer in 'Each man for himself and God for all.'
Neither do I impose my views on others nor do I want anyone to impose their views on me. I believe in mutual respect and believe in acknowledging and respecting the points of views of others.
Have you ever seen me questioning anyone's views or condemning them?


Azeem Taqi
Nashville, United States
Dec 24, 2008 12:00 AM
165
V.SESHADRI
CHENNAI INDIA
How does a number become the equivalent of a statement? by what logic?

OK, Sir, this is how it goes - say AZEEM would be
1+ 26+ 5+5+13 = 50 (A being the first alphabet and so on...)
That way, the Arabic alphabets amount to 786.
Azeem Taqi
Nashville, United States
Dec 24, 2008 12:00 AM
164
SHYAMAL BARUA
KOLKATA INDIA
Guruji, please enlighten us about the Sura# of Quran which contains the reward of eternal bliss of the company of 70 virgins aka "hoors" to the jehadis who die for the cause of Islam...

To Shyamal ji, and to Seshadri ji,
For the nth time, bhai, there is no mention of 70,72, 272, or whatever 'virgins' anywhere in any authentic Islamic text whatsoever.
It is just the ranting of some idiotic,criminal fundamentalist egging on idiots to commit suicide in the name of religion, and those that follow it are certainly crazy - what will anyone do with so many girls? Even High Hefner and Casanova together could not handle them and...anyways, those who kill innocents will,in the first place, be condemned to Hell and will not go to Heaven.
I wish such statements by criminal idiots would not be taken seriously.
Azeem Taqi
Nashville, United States
Dec 24, 2008 12:00 AM
163
Seshadri,

>> Narada = gabriel seems to have talked about these 'atom' virgins to nabhi. He must have misunderstood them as virgin-girls.

You are such an intolerable ignoramus. There is no mention of virgins, 72 or 272 in the Quran!

>> I am sure narada must be feeling sad for giving the suraan message to nabhi.

Such an idiotic commnet! How do you manage to keep yourself out of a mental hospital?
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 23, 2008 12:00 AM
162
India should open multiple channels of communication, cross-investment, travel & tourism with ALL States having business development offices in Kashmir, and conversely. LeT can never be defeated without broad-based support from the Kashmiris. FULL EMPLOYMENT for Kashmiri youth would deepen and broaden kashmiri integration with the rest of India.

For a change, let there be a corruption-free governance
p bodepudi
San Diego, United States
Dec 23, 2008 12:00 AM
161
S.Barua:>>"please enlighten us about the Sura# of Quran which contains the reward of eternal bliss of the company of 70 virgins aka "hoors" to the jehadis who die for the cause of Islam"

I have no familiarity with all the suras of the quran. But, I can assure you that, if the suras were given to nabhi by gabriel = gaapriya = narada, he would not have said it, in the way it is being interpretted by abu baker, bakaasura- type arabs.

Actually, as per gita, heaven is known as 'swarga'. 'swayam gamyate iti swargah', place where elements, bodies are able to move freely, a gravity-free zone, available in the neighbourhood of Jupiter, where christians expect St. Peter to welcome them to heaven. Narada, gabriel, must have referred only to this heaven, valid for all meritorious human lives, of all religions.

In this swarga, it is said, whatever the souls powerfully desire will be materialized, a body of desired type, apple if desired for eating and so on. The periodic table of atoms has 272 atoms, pictured as the yoginee-devataas [joiner divines, seen as divine virgins in tantra-sastra] on the sree-chakra celebrating the cosmo-mom creative power Sree-devi. Narada = gabriel seems to have talked about these 'atom' virgins to nabhi. He must have misunderstood them as virgin-girls, given his propensity for desire for the opposite sex. Perhaps he might have talked only of 72 yoginees or virgins, instead of 272, since most of the common organic product molecules need only some 72 of the 272 elements on the table.

I am sure narada must be feeling sad for giving the suraan message to nabhi, thinking he was ravan [Jaya, vaikunta gatekeeper], in real repentance! But, Siva's leela is endless, really! Nabhi had to be born once more as aurangazeb in india and get a darsan of ranganatha on raamanuja's pilgrimmage , before really qualifying for liberation. We are left harvasting the seeds sown by him in arabia!.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Dec 23, 2008 12:00 AM
160
Guru Seshadri ji,

>>"sultans had harems with hundreds of women and the thousands of their men-servants also had their organs removed, or could go only for animal sex. This is, probably, the main reason that hinduism has survived .."

:: Tussi Great Ho!

By the way, I would like to hear from you about the increased orgasmic pleasure that comes with the removal of the foreskin ...and by the way what is your take on Ajmal Kasab's confession:: " During the training Pakistan Army officers and Lashkar-e-Toiba commanders repeatedly told the terrorists that "the moment you are killed in the Jehad against India in Mumbai attack,your body will emit divine glow and an intoxicating fragrance, before the body rises to heaven, to enjoy sex with beautiful virgins waiting for you," The Political Party.com quoted Kasab's confession with the Mumbai Anti-Terror Squad (ATS).

Guruji, please enlighten us about the Sura# of Quran which contains the reward of eternal bliss of the company of 70 virgins aka "hoors" to the jehadis who die for the cause of Islam...
Shyamal Barua
kolkata, India
Dec 23, 2008 12:00 AM
159
>> You are a sore loser

Another incorrect and meaningless post.
Al Bundy
San Francisco, United States
Dec 23, 2008 12:00 AM
158
>> Meaningless data only makes meaningless point.

You are a sore loser!
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 23, 2008 12:00 AM
157
>> The data made the point that needed to be made. Perfect data on such a subject are not avaiable.

Meaningless data only makes meaningless point.
Al Bundy
San Francisco, United States
Dec 23, 2008 12:00 AM
156
Seshadri,

>> when sultans had harems with hundreds of women, the number of kids they got would have been limited.

Were we talking of sultans and their harems? How do you manage to stay out of a lunatic asylum?
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 23, 2008 12:00 AM
155
Seshadri,

>> I justified it by saying kafir = kabir = hindus protected against evil, as per gita;

How do you manage to stay out of a lunatic asylum?
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 23, 2008 12:00 AM
154
>> Does expressing amusement include making statements based on old, unreliable data?

The data made the point that needed to be made. Perfect data on such a subject are not avaiable.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 23, 2008 12:00 AM
153
>>"When polygamy is thrown in as a cause of higher birth rate, I have to express my amusement".

You do have a point; when sultans had harems with hundreds of women, the number of kids they got would have been limited, anyway, for phisiological limitations. Besides, thousands of their men-servants also had their organs removed, or could go only for animal sex. This is, probably, the main reason that hinduism has survived as a majority relig in india, despite centuries under sultans.

In fact, post-indep islam in india with 4-limited polygamy is a greater danger to india's majority now, 5 to 25 to 125 in just 50yrs. Only hope is that monogamy may be forced on them for economic reasons, since not all of them are nawabs, anyway.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Dec 23, 2008 12:00 AM
152
Azeem:>>"786 is the numerical equivalent of 'Bismillah Ir Rehman Ir Rahim'"

How does a number become the equivalent of a statement? by what logic?

>>"Writing 786 is quite a sub continental thing. I do not recollect seeing it in the Middle East".

You seem to be just a more polite version of anwar, only rejecting my statements, in presumed wisdom. You declared there was no stone on the kaabaa, along with anwar, until others plainly said it was very much there. Discussions have no meaning, in the absence of honesty.

>>'Allah, the Beneficient, the Merciful'

om in sans expands as a + u + im, standing for creation [allah the creator, as you belive, the omnipotent], preservation [beneficient, the omnipresent, 'rahamaana' in sans] and transformation for constant improvements, the merciful, as you put it, the omniscient].
There is philo-consistency. Clearly, narada = gabriel has clearly para-phrased the om-kaara on the first line of the suraan given to nabhi.

>>"I do not even understand what you are trying to get at,and, you're right, I respect your line of thought but do not agree with it".

I expected this, of course. You said quran wants kafirs to be just ignored. I justified it by saying kafir = kabir = hindus protected against evil, as per gita; hence, gabriel, being naarada knowing about hinduism, would have certainly said that. But, even after aft 1400 yrs, LeT thinks hindu india should be attacked and destroyed. Of course, you will conveniently disagree, with both myself and the LeT.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Dec 23, 2008 12:00 AM
151
>> When polygamy is thrown in as a cause of higher birth rate, I have to express my amusement.

Does expressing amusement include making statements based on old, unreliable data?
Al Bundy
San Francisco, United States
Dec 23, 2008 12:00 AM
150
varun

india,s problem is that there too many indians, and too many different types of indians.

it seems that christians, dalits have ganged up
against us hindus. grudges of all kinds seem to exist.

then there are the muslims. they have seldom anything good to say about india.

then there the others.tribals, bongos, gujus, punjabis etc etc.

its a witches brew.

we have no common language, we look very different from each other, and our culture is
different.

the only things which tie us togather is that the
top 10 percent speak english, and many are hindus.

though an agnostic i have a soft spot for hinduism, despite all its blemishes.

its my firm conviction that love for bharat mata stems from being a hindu.this ties the tamil to the bengali, to people from gujerat, rajasthan.

when i read comments in this forum i note the
hostility of many of the minorities , who have
a different religion.

as far as i know great efforts have been made to be inclusive . it does not seem to work.,

many muslims feel that any closeness to hinduism-even practiceing yoga or meditation is un islamic. parents tell their children to stay away from nonmuslims. this is the way of keeping
the faithful togather.

minorities seem to feel insecure, victimised,
and just out of synch with the mainstream.

its no use fooling ourselves.

the mumbai killings have shown how much trapped muslims are in their paronia.

i saw antulay say on tv.

i am only answerable to allah.

he is not fit to live in a liberal, democratic society. he will always be aproblem. so will his supporters be. ofcource all this will be forgotten.

indian muslims will be declared to be staunch and patriotic indians. hindu nationalists will be blamed for everything under the sun.
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
Dec 23, 2008 12:00 AM
149
the numeral 786, seen as sacred number in the middle-east, really corresponds to the three parts of temple-top omkaaras, if read frpom right to left, like urdu or arab!.

You may not agree with my view, of course. .

V.SESHADRI
CHENNAI INDIA

Seshadri ji, to the first part of your mail (reproduced above), 786 is the numerical equivalent of 'Bismillah Ir Rehman Ir Rahim' which is the first line in the Holy Qur'an and at the start of all but one of the chapters in the Qur'an and literally means ' In the Name of Allah, the Beneficient, the Merciful'. Muslims say this - taking God's name before doing anything auspicious.
In Hinduism, it would be taking the name of Ganesha.
Writing 786 is quite a sub continental thing. I do not recollect seeing it in the Middle East.
Incidentally, this '786' thing was hugely popularized by Amitabh Bachchan who, as a coolie in the film, 'Deewaar', had a badge bearing the number '786.'

On to the second part, honestly, I do not even understand what you are trying to get at,and, you're right, I respect your line of thought but do not agree with it.

Azeem Taqi
Nashville, United States
Dec 23, 2008 12:00 AM
148
If what Francis and Sivan say is accurate, there should be a jealous/resentful Filipino or Thai peasant/poor person or persons, who hijacks a Chinese or Japanese fishing boat,decapitates the crew, lands in Shanghai or Tokyo, then proceeds to go on a massacre spree in those cities. But it's not happening! Why not? Why only in India/Mumbai, if your smart theory is correct?
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Dec 23, 2008 12:00 AM
147
The Pakistani elite, who are ultimately the perpetrators of the Mumbai massacre, do indeed feel great jealousy and hatred for India because of India's success. Yes, India is a poor country with a hundred-and-one problems, but that's not all it is. India is also a dynamic, vibrant, and democratic country that is highly accomplished in many areas, and looking to be even more so: IT, BPO, Biotech, Space( moon mission etc), alternative energy, animation, pharmaceuticals, astronomy, Bollywood, tourism and several more. The elite in the form of the military/fundamentalist parties/ISI brainwashed these killers to perpetrate the Mumbai killings.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Dec 23, 2008 12:00 AM
146
Seshadri,

>> What is 'spiritual synthetics' is seen as 'schizophrenics' by islamist lunatics.

That is the kind of answer that paranoid schizophrenics give.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 23, 2008 12:00 AM
145
>> A response to a person decrying ridiculousness in personal laws and fertility rates.

When polygamy is thrown in as a cause of higher birth rate, I have to express my amusement.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 23, 2008 12:00 AM
144
Sivan, Seshadri is far more Indian in heart and soul than you are.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Dec 23, 2008 12:00 AM
143
Sivan, invoking Jews in Europe to score a debating point with respect to Moslems is a bad move. Jews in Europe never demanded, never even tried, and of course never succeeded, and are not demanding now, a separate state in Europe. Jews also do not have a history of being rulers and invaders.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Dec 23, 2008 12:00 AM
142
>>"Many paranoid schizophrenics claim they possess the same powers that you claim you have"

What is 'spiritual synthetics' is seen as 'schizophrenics' by islamist lunatics.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Dec 23, 2008 12:00 AM
141
>> Check what that was in response to.

A response to a person decrying ridiculousness in personal laws and fertility rates is not to provide inaccurate data, or one resting on very weak evidence.

If solid data exists, please use it by all means.
Al Bundy
San Francisco, United States
Dec 23, 2008 12:00 AM
140
>> move beyond which community has more polygamous relationships.

Check what that was in response to.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 23, 2008 12:00 AM
139
Lalit:>>"india would be well served in delivering certain areas where muslims can live their separate lives. trying to turn them into modern human beings could take a 100 to 200 years as faruki admits".

You are saying that the arab can just assign a certain portion of his tent to the camel that has come in, and then get along with his own work. This cannot be satisfactory, if the camel is a strange one, which goes on growing in size, exponentially. Very soon, the whole tent will be filled by the camel only and torn out, the arab pushed out into the cold!. If the annihilation procedure is adopted, the earth will be consumed by burial grounds only.

nir-yogaat asuraah mrigaah. If ecology is restored on the earth, expanding forests, many of the asuric humans will be born as animals only, to restart their evolution, spiritually. Population of moslems will start coming down, slowly.

For this to happen, all the non-moslem relig must come fully under the umbrella of sanaatana dharma, only. Since the return of christ/jesus into Siva/skanda and mary's holy spirit into durga, has already happened, this is quite possible. But then, christians, all over the world should fully switch over their trust and prayers only to Jesus, the divine shepherd, and withdraw their commitment and loyalty to the conversionist priest-class, closing down the nunneries, convents, etc. Vegetarianism, burning, not burying, of bodies of non-saints/sanyasins and general reduction of woman-hurt, in all cultures, will have to happen, besides seeing the only ONE GOD behind all religs. Then, His mercyful consort, the cosmo-mom, will really bless humanity with a divine future.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Dec 23, 2008 12:00 AM
138
Seshadri,

>> the mind body comes out around the phys body, the soul body further outside the other two also and starts expanding. When, such things happen, one tends to 'see' the thought patterns of others clearly, bec of the expanding mind; as soul-sphere further expands to include the whole earth, a comprehensive and consistent view of the prehistory of the earth becomes clearer.

Many paranoid schizophrenics claim they possess the same powers that you claim you have.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 23, 2008 12:00 AM
137
>> True! Personally I have never met either a polygamous Muslim or a polygamous Hindu.

Nor have I. So it should be reasonable to move beyond which community has more polygamous relationships, and focus on the differences in the personal laws.
Al Bundy
San Francisco, United States
Dec 23, 2008 12:00 AM
136
>>"How do you manage to keep yourself out of a lunatic asylum?"

The lunacy you notice in me is diff from the 'asylum' kind.

As per yoga-siddhaanta, humans have a physical body, with a subtle mind-body within it and a soul body within that also. As yogic medit habits progress, the mind body comes out around the phys body, the soul body further outside the other two also and starts expanding. When, such things happen, one tends to 'see' the thought patterns of others clearly, bec of the expanding mind; as soul-sphere further expands to include the whole earth, a comprehensive and consistent view of the prehistory of the earth becomes clearer. When the soul-sphere expands to include the orbit of moon also, the 'bhuvar-loka' or 'pitr-loka', ancestor-world, then, one tends to see the progression of souls in re-birth-sequences also, with some clarity.

No wonder, you call this moon-inclusive yogic state a kind of 'lunacy' only. You are welcome to continue to call me a lunatic only, like gabriel who brought the word to nabhi, justifying the moon-crescent on your mosques.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Dec 23, 2008 12:00 AM
135
>> The data however, is very old (1961).

True! Personally I have never met either a polygamous Muslim or a polygamous Hindu.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 23, 2008 12:00 AM
134
sivan

its the muslims who are consumed by hate.
they have shown this in action quite recently

obviously the incident was not noticed by you.

by the way a christian priest in denmark has said " islam and muslims are a plague descended in Europe",

i dont have this opinion.however i feel that pakistan,made up of people who were indians just 60 years ago have shown unbelievable hate for us.
they have recieved support from muslims liveing in india.

ofcource we have a right to be concerned, and wish to live in safe neighbourhoods. most well
off pakistani,s live in gated,gaurded communities.

care to write to them.
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
Dec 23, 2008 12:00 AM
133
This Asia Society, et al meet should try deepening of its discussion on global and India-specific terrorism, India- Pakistan relations, Kashmir. There needs to be depth of understanding (which is missing) which can come from repeat and prolonged meets, perhaps including the likes of South Asia experts (Cohen, et al) and economists(from India, Pakistan and Bangla Desh-Sen, et al)and
the intelligence experts
p bodepudi
San Diego, United States
Dec 23, 2008 12:00 AM
132
sivan

pakistan chose to leave india . they insisted
that they could not live with hindus.

what has changed now. muslims claim to be opressed, victimised and are a lightening rod,
invokeing attacks from pakistan.

muslims wanted a separate state of hyderabad, and now they want kashmir.

my suggestion is to give them what they want, or as much as is practicle.

yes take kashmir, india to withdraw its forces.
give them a part of hyderabad, gujerat, uttarpradesh- where they can freely practice their ideals. i thinks its a generous gesture.

however ofcource what you dont like is, that we
are giveing it to you freely. that means that we
have the nerve to say,that we are tired of this fake pluralist society.

apart from this, you will find the proposal eminently sensible. Muslims in India- will be
able to live just as they do in Pakistan and Bangladesh. Muslims whio dont like this set up can live in the rest of India, with nonmuslims,
shareing the ideals of liberalism, free speech, equality of sexes.
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
Dec 22, 2008 12:00 AM
131
BANITOADOLFO, if you stayed sober and typed, instead of leaning cross-eyed on your keyboard, your posts might be more comprehensible. I gather you are recommending that all Muslims be put in a gulag. Your reasons appear to be: they are a different species and the source of contagion.

Europe already thought like that for several hundred years about the Jews. After many centuries of ghettoes, pogroms, legalized discrimination and widespread anti-Semitism, Germany took the lead and decided to just kill all of them (and the gypsies too, who they thought of along similar lines).

Eventually, such thinking and the actions resulting therefrom became quite a source of shame - it was hard not to see that it was all very uncivilized and barbaric and not in keeping with the image of the west as the fount of all civilization. Big wars etc happened in between, and the Jews were moved this time to a ghetto in (someone else's) desert. They were also armed to the teeth - for fear that they might go back to Europe (which really didn't want them) again. Unfortunately, this move has also backfired because Israel hacked and slashed it's way through other people's countries and created a horde of really angry displaced people (who Israel and the US started to view as a contagion etc etc).

The problem really appears to have begun with the vicious intolerance of minorities: the view that they are a contagion, a different species, to be put in gulags etc. Hindu-Nazis like you are so drunk on your lazy hatred, that you want to repeat such sordidness all over again. Do you not feel sick repeating this Nazi stuff over and over, day in and day out? UGH!
Vine Sivan
Kolkata, India
Dec 22, 2008 12:00 AM
130
>> The data however, is very old (1961).

Come to think of it, I wonder if this data is reliable at all. As the article itself mentions, in the older census reports, lot of groups (Jains, tribals, Lingayats, etc.), were classified as Hindus.

It of course does not mention (and I don't know if the census report did either), as to what was the percentage of polygamous marriages in these groups .

It is possible that many have since converted, even if they considered themselves Hindus earlier. The seculars are also rigid that these groups (tribals in particular) are not Hindus (though they shall classify them as Hindus when they want to pass some blame around). In essence, this data is completely useless.
Al Bundy
San Francisco, United States
Dec 22, 2008 12:00 AM
129
sivan

europe is faceing the problem of terrorism ,
caused by dissatisfied muslims.

one way is to give into them as britain did-and
which made malanie phillips book-londonistan.

the britts went further -allowing hijabs and burqas. koran schools. a muslim prliament.

it did not help.

no civilised society can please people with a taliban mind. neither does it have a duty to do so. muslim countries would certainly not do a damn to please dissatisfied foreigners.

any crime, of any kind and the people are severely punished. no need to describe the macabre punishments, the conditions of jails,the torture and so forth.

the best way to be free of the discontented youth, is not to have them in ones country.

demark has now made laws which permit deportment of criminal foreigners, after they have have served their sentences.

european countries have been too lax, the soviet union, china would put down all terrorism by
brutal actions. and muslims dont complain.
they understand that crime results in punishment,
as it should.
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
Dec 22, 2008 12:00 AM
128
I see Outlook has changed their blurb for this article and chosen to highlight another of Rushdie's erroneous readings of Arundhati Roy:

>>>And as our colleague Arundhati Roy wrote the other night, as she ended her article, she said: You have a very simple choice: Justice or civil war -- and you choose...

I want to really take issue with this...I do not believe that their [LeT's] project has anything to do with justice."

The LeT's project does not have anything to do with justice (and I don't think anyone said that - not even Roy) - but the LeT does appeal to people's ideas about justice when it goes out recruiting militias. Did you not read that they play videos of the Gujarat pogroms, the Babri demolition, Kashmir human rights violations etc., while indoctrinating people? They clearly make a convincing case to rickshaw pullers' sons and bhajia vendors who may indeed, feel a generalized but strong sense of injustice and invisibility, the wrath of the poor and marginalized anywhere. The LeT presents them with a culturally coherent narrative of the origin and cause of their sense of injustice. Leftists and anti-capitalists would give them a whole different narrative - a truer and less mind-fucked one. The CIA recognized this quite well when they fostered this deranged version of Islam to counter the threat of the USSR. As they fostered a deranged version of Hinduism to counter the threat of communism in India.

So, if you don't like what the bhajia vending fraternity of Faridkot is doing about the sense of injustice they understandably feel (as you or I might, if we were bhajia vendors who barely got by *and* were completely invisible in any political calculus) - then you should present an alternate and less mind-fucked narrative and make sure it gets to them in a palatable form. You'd have to stop speaking of the Taj as a paradise for the righteous, for one thing. They just wouldn't get it, I feel. It might turn them off completely.
Vine Sivan
Kolkata, India
Dec 22, 2008 12:00 AM
127
Anwar Patel to V. Seshadri: "How do you manage to keep yourself out of a lunatic asylum?"

His answer will likely be that he uses vedic hymns to turn himself into a noisome cloud, a swarm of gnats or an RSS office holder.

I think the asylums are too fond of their charges to let in such an annoying monomaniac.
Vine Sivan
Kolkata, India
Dec 22, 2008 12:00 AM
126
>> According to the Government census of 1961

Thanks for the link.

The data however, is very old (1961). Per my understanding, the Hindu personal law, banning polygamy was passed after independence. A lot of such marriages, that took place before the laws were passed would have been valid then. By now, many might have passed away, and the data is meaningless unless the new trends are shown to be the same as the older ones.

In essence, if you don't have any new data, this report is meaningless. Chances are that people who want to indulge in polygamous relations, convert to Islam to do so (like Bhajan Lal's son and his wife recently).
Al Bundy
San Francisco, United States
Dec 22, 2008 12:00 AM
125
dr s

for how long can we continue mud throwing with
faruki and muslims who think like him.

at some point we need to take a firm stand.
that was when everyone decided in 1947 that pakistan should be formed as a muslim homeland.

what exactly is wrong with this. muslims are best
off liveing amongst themselves. likewise nonmuslims would be better of in a largely nonmuslim india.

why is there so much opposition to this idea. why all the pretence that we must live tgather. what exactly is the point we want to prove.

as a scientist how long would you continue with a experiment which has failed a hundred times.
what is the point. if there is one, then it must be because several people like the psedosecularists gain by it.

mayawati, laloo prasad and the congress need the
muslim vote. no body would give a tinkers damn for them if they did not have a vote to deliver.

thats the reason why sonia said, muslims are our natural allies. thats the reason for laloo prasad, and mulayam singhs great love for muslims.

should the muslim vote go away ,then things would settle down. politics in india would take a u turn.

india would be well served in delivering certain
areas where muslims can live their separate lives. trying to turn them into moden human beings could take a 100 to 200 years as faruki admits.

who wants to wait so long-

banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
Dec 22, 2008 12:00 AM
124
22/12/08

"Hindus -- 5.06%
Muslims -- 4.31%"

> The aggrieved Hindu first wife can go to the court and put the husband in jail. Hence the ban on polygamy.

> The real intention to retain polygamy is more dangerous. "We will rule the world; see the rate of growth of their population and our rate of growth" is the war cry.

The Learned
Losa Angeles, United States
Dec 22, 2008 12:00 AM
123
>> AP: "I saw a report which said there are more Hindus involved in more than one relationship than Muslims in India."


According to the Government census of 1961:-

The percentages of polygamous marriages among Hindus & Muslims (in proportion to all marriages in the community) for the decade 1951 - 1961 are as under:-

Hindus -- 5.06%
Muslims -- 4.31%.


http://anandnair.sulekh...rals/comment/957471.htm

Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 22, 2008 12:00 AM
122
>> I saw a report which said there are more Hindus involved in more than one relationship than Muslims in India.

Ah this mythical report again! You spoke about it in the past, and when requested to provide a link, didn't even get static from your end, just a deafening silence.
Al Bundy
San Francisco, United States
Dec 22, 2008 12:00 AM
121
Seshadri,

>> I think the word in quran would have only been 'kabir', pronounced as 'kafir', like 'alla' for 'hara'.

How do you manage to keep yourself out of a lunatic asylum?
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 22, 2008 12:00 AM
120
Azeem:>>"when the Prophet started preaching Islam. Some accepted, some did not, and the distinguishing line was 'Muslim' (who believed) and'Kafir' (who did not).It is a general term and not meant to be religious. There was absolutely no force, looking down upon, etc at all"

When writing a poem on kabir, in sans, I have said 'kali-bheerakah kabheerah', meaning someone who puts the devil himself in fear, typical of the hindus, whose trust and devotion in GOD brings the lord Himself to appear again and again to destroy evil, as it surfaces to disrupt justice in welfare of the humans. Hence, I think the word in quran would have only been 'kabir', pronounced as 'kafir', like 'alla' for 'hara'. Perhaps, naarada =gaaapryia = gabriel was telling nabhi that, if the moslems come across hindus, kabirs, they should just be ignored, since they have their own long-standing relig of polymorphic monotheism. If only gazzni and co had done that, india's history would have been quite different!.

What gabriel was asking nabhi to give, to the arabs, was a strictly monotheistic, non-idolatric relig, bec the tribes there were literally taking, competitively for worship, one each of the 272 female virgin icons [yoginee-devataas] on the kubera-sree-cakra, which had fallen on mecca [now covered under the kaabaa], from the northern ice-cone's secondadry peak called 'alaka', next to the main peak peak 'meru', as per descriptions given in the devi-maahaatmaya. Hindu kabirs, altho polythestic, with many ishTadevataas, saw one single absolute power operating all of them in coordination.

But somehow, it does seem that at least some highly learned and philosophical moslems in the mid-east did see some greatness in hinduism with its absolute symbolized by the om-kaara scripted in devanaagari on temple-tower tops, because the numeral 786, seen as sacred number in the middle-east, really corresponds to the three parts of temple-top omkaaras, if read frpom right to left, like urdu or arab!.

You may not agree with my view, of course. .
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Dec 22, 2008 12:00 AM
119
>>"there are more Hindus involved in more than one relationship than Muslims in India"

If true, moslems should be more enthuiastic than hindus in asking for a common civil code, prescribing monogamy as part of it, without the triple-talaq facility for divorces..
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Dec 22, 2008 12:00 AM
118
Indeed the interview of Rushdie sums up the actual scenario and time for ordinary Pakistanis to throw the country's powerful elites lock, stock and barrel.
And I must thank Rose and others for explaining the most scientific of all philosophies i.e Buddhism to the "Mullahs" of this post...
Shyamal Barua
kolkata, India
Dec 22, 2008 12:00 AM
117
>>I saw a report which said there are more Hindus involved in more than one relationship than Muslims in India.

Muslims support AIMPLB on triple talaq, polygamy

The Milli Gazette Online

Sixty-four percent of those interviewed said that Family Courts are not best forum to solve matrimonial disputes and only 15 per cent were in favour of it. While eighty-one percent said that Shariah Courts are the best forum to solve matrimonial disputes.

Seventy-seven percent said that wives did not have the same rights as of husbands in the matters of divorce. Only 19 per cent said that wives had the same rights.

Eighty-eight percent said that the government should not ban triple talaq and polygamy and only 7 per cent of them were in favour of a ban on them by the government. «


http://www.milligazette...dition/011507200531.htm


lookout bug me not
mumbai, India
Dec 22, 2008 12:00 AM
116
>>I saw a report which said there are more Hindus involved in more than one relationship than Muslims in India.

Kerala Muslim cleric vows to preserve polygamy

‘A second wife is biologically justified. Women’s menstrual cycle prevents them from sexual contact for 5-6 days’

THIRUVANANTHAPURAM: The leader of a dominant Muslim group in Kerala has strongly condemned any move to ban polygamy. The community will oppose any piece of legislation aimed at curbing the practice, said Kanthapuram AP Aboobacker Musaliar, a Sunni leader.

But Aboobacker says, “Islam had sanctioned polygamy under certain circumstances long before we were born. Trying to ban it is against the Holy Quran and humanity. We will oppose any new law aimed at banning polygamy.


http://www.dnaindia.com...newsid=1205615&pageid=2
lookout bug me not
mumbai, India
Dec 22, 2008 12:00 AM
115
Salman is a great writer, of all time. His comments on another Booker Prize winner is astounding and may even be appropriate.

Rose: why is some one calling you BODEPUDI? Which Bodepudi? I am just curious. I understand what you are trying to say but look into the FUTURE-not the PAST. There is terror of unemployment, global warming, global recession, on and on.
p bodepudi
San Diego, United States
Dec 22, 2008 12:00 AM
114
Rose/Bodepudi,

>> Ghulam typical language of Islam-filled ...

Try as hard as you can, you will never be able to live down the fact that you have been a cheap full-time hate pracharak for years, and you have actually advocated murders of imams, razing of mosques and even genocide. You even tried to post fraudulently in this forum using my ID! You are an unethical, hate-filled charlatan.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 22, 2008 12:00 AM
113
Azeem,

>> I fail to understand how you have the gall to defend murderers by diverting attention.
OK, Stalin, Mussolini, Hitler were bad but does that justify what fundamentalists have done and are doing misusing religion?

That's why I call you a moron! Have you ever seen me supporting any fundamnealists or Hitler or Stalin or Mussolini? You are going by the statements of the bitter anti-Muslim hate spreader Rose/Bodepudi. You should be ashamed of yourself.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 22, 2008 12:00 AM
112
"I want to really take issue with this. Because I mean, I think, anyone who knows what I have written in my life knows that I am quite seriously concerned with the condition of Kashmir. And I think that Indian authorities are culpable in the way in which they have treated the ordinary people of Kashmir but so are Jaish-e-Mohammad and Lashkar-e-Toiba." SR

I differ with you VEHEMENTLY on this, dear SR. Couple of centuries ago Hindus were an overwhelming majority in Kashmir and Sri Nagar was built a by a Buddhist King. Now comes colonial, imperailist, Monotheistic-fascist Islam. Hindus and Buddhists were genocidally killed and even the fewhundre thousand harmless pundits were either killed ot forced to leave their land and homes. Is it not Islamic fascism? Compared to this, what Indian military was doing in response to LeT terror is both rational and extremely defensible. Today Kashmir and Tomorrow, Assam.

Enough is enough.


Islam is an imperailst ideology nmasquerading as a religion that killed tens of millions of Hindus-Buddhists in cold blood. Islamic Monotheist Allah, for Hindus, isno different than the God of Nazis, Bolsheviks, Red Guards and the rest

No more

Rose
New York, United States
Dec 22, 2008 12:00 AM
111
"I am also asking this. Where is evolution-that is where is the proof for evolution?" Ganesan

There is none-but the point since koran is contradicted at the first grade level, why go beyond?

Statements made by Stephen Hawking and his contemporaries accord with Buddha's stratement that there was no beginning nor an end. the Big Bang just was one of trillions before and as many, to follow

Rose
New York, United States
Dec 22, 2008 12:00 AM
110
"13 Where is the Evolution?"

I am also asking this. Where is evolution-that is where is the proof for evolution?
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Dec 22, 2008 12:00 AM
109
Dear Azeem: Let's look at a very small sample:

1 Ali Dashti considers Sura 111 as the words of Muhammed as these words are unworthy of God. " The hands of Abu Lahab shall perish, and he shall perish. His riches shall not profit him,, neither that which he has gained. He shall go down to be burned into flaming fire, and his wife also, bearing wood on her neck a cord of twisted fibres of a palm tree". These words are not worthy of a religious founder and certainly not of GOd.

2 Foreign vocabulary of Koran: Foreign words from Aramic, Hebrew, Syriac, Ehiopic, Persian and Greek-definitely compilers of Koran used Judaic (Old Testament) and Greek, Persian and Christian sources, extensively

3 Ali Dashti criticizes extensively Muhammed's style-despite the obvious rhetorical power

4 Several verses were missing, and several later were added

5 Unusual words and phrases: Verses 1-5 of sura 78 obviously have been added and so was the verse 15 of sura 20-on and on

6 Sura 2. 105: "Whatever verses we (ie., God) cancel or cause you to forget, we bring a better or its like". The number of abrogated versaes range from 5-500. The doctrine of abrogation makes mockery of Muslim dogma that the koran is a faithful and unalterable reproduction of the original scriptures that are presented in heaven!

7 Islam is monotheistic and fails to prove that it is in any way, shape or form is even an iota better than polytheism. On the contrary, it can be proven the other way by looking around and looking back. Monotheist dogma had killed tens of millions of Hindus and Buddhists-and looted their wealth, raped their women and stole their lands-not to speak of Central Asia, Iran, Middle East, afganistan, North Africa where once more tolerant and more peaceful traditions and freedoms existed, Islam had extinguished them-under the false dogma of monotheism and its sinful arrogance. Compare India to Pakistan, Bangla Desh, Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Afganistan. India is surrouinded by MONOTHEIST FASCISM. Is it not? Let's debate it.

8 Traditions of paganism abound in Islam-Koran, contracting itself, repeatedly. Polygamy was practised and so was the worship of black Stone at Kaaba

9 Koranic god is vengeful and a fabrication. God does not discriminate between believers(in stupidity?) and unbelievers. Does not exhort to kill any of his creations. Does not just speak in Arabic, only-a mindless fabrication even children would laugh at, unless brainwashed before their minds can start to function.

9 For the historian, the Arabs are no more the descendents of Abraham than the French are of Francus, son of Hector-by Maxime Rodinson

10 It is virtually certain that Abraham never reached Mercca-by Montgomery Watt: Ie., Koran was a later compilation and a fabrication

11 Noah and the Flood: It is taken from the genesis

12 Koran gives contradictory accounts of creation: Heaven and earth and in between 6 days? Sura 41 says it was in 8 days!

13 Where is the Evolution?

14 Miracles: Are a violation of the law of nature

15 Koran talks of Christ's virgin birth which many Christinas think a fasbrication

16 Judaism and Christianity were sources for Koran-besides Persian and Greek traditrions

17 Ayesha said once after the prophet taking the nth wife, that the prophet gets revelations whenever "convenient"!

On and on

I disagree with you on Koran and the political/military/colonial ideology of Islam, but I love Moslems and ALL creation, whether by god or by nature.


Rose
New York, United States
Dec 22, 2008 12:00 AM
108
Dear Azeem: Let's look at a very small sample:

1 Ali Dashti considers Sura 111 as the words of Muhammed as these words are unworthy of God. " The hands of Abu Lahab shall perish, and he shall perish. His riches shall not profit him,, neither that which he has gained. He shall go down to be burned into flaming fire, and his wife also, bearing wood on her neck a cord of twisted fibres of a palm tree". These words are not worthy of a religious founder and certainly not of GOd.

2 Foreign vocabulary of Koran: Foreign words from Aramic, Hebrew, Syriac, Ehiopic, Persian and Greek-definitely compilers of Koran used Judaic (Old Testament) and Greek, Persian and Christian sources, extensively

3 Ali Dashti criticizes extensively Muhammed's style-despite the obvious rhetorical power

4 Several verses were missing, and several later were added

5 Unusual words and phrases: Verses 1-5 of sura 78 obviously have been added and so was the verse 15 of sura 20-on and on

6 Sura 2. 105: "Whatever verses we (ie., God) cancel or cause you to forget, we bring a better or its like". The number of abrogated versaes range from 5-500. The doctrine of abrogation makes mockery of Muslim dogma that the koran is a faithful and unalterable reproduction of the original scriptures that are presented in heaven!

7 Islam is monotheistic and fails to prove that it is in any way, shape or form is even an iota better than polytheism. On the contrary, it can be proven the other way by looking around and looking back. Monotheist dogma had killed tens of millions of Hindus and Buddhists-and looted their wealth, raped their women and stole their lands-not to speak of Central Asia, Iran, Middle East, afganistan, North Africa where once more tolerant and more peaceful traditions and freedoms existed, Islam had extinguished them-under the false dogma of monotheism and its sinful arrogance. Compare India to Pakistan, Bangla Desh, Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Afganistan. India is surrouinded by Polytheist FASCISM.Is it not?

8 Traditions of paganism abound in Islam-Koran, contracting itself, repeatedly. Polygamy was practised and so was the worship of black Stone at Kaaba

9 Koranic god is vengeful and a fabrication. God does not discriminate between believers(in stupidity?) and unbelievers. Does not exhort to kill any of his creations. Does not just speak in Arabic, only-a mindless fabrication even children would laugh at, unless brainwashed before their minds can start to function.

9 For the historian, the Arabs are no more the descendents of Abraham than the French are of Francus, son of Hector-by Maxime Rodinson

10 It is virtually certain that Abraham never reached Mercca-by Montgomery Watt: Ie., Koran was a later compilation and a fabrication

11 Noah and the Flood: It is taken from the genesis

12 Koran gives contradictory accounts of creation: Heaven and earth and in between 6 days? Sura 41 says it was in 8 days!

13 Where is the Evolution?

14 Miracles: Are a violation of the law of nature

15 Koran talks of Christ's virgin birth which many Christinas think a fasbrication

16 Judaism and Christianity were sources for Koran-besides Persian and Greek traditrions

17 Ayesha said once after the prophet taking the nth wife, that the prophet gets revelations whenever "convenient"!

On and on

I disagree with you on Koran and the political/military/colonial ideology of Islam, but I love Moslems and ALL creation, whether by god or by nature.

Rose
New York, United States
Dec 22, 2008 12:00 AM
107
Dear Azeem:

//1 Ali Dashti considers Sura 111 as the words of Muhammed as these words are unworthy of God. " The hands of Abu Lahab shall perish, and he shall perish. His riches shall not profit him,, neither that which he has gained. He shall go down to be burned into flaming fire, and his wife also, bearing wood on her neck a cord of twisted fibres of a palm tree". These words are not worthy of a religious founder and certainly not of GOd.

2 Foreign vocabulary of Koran: Foreign words from Aramic, Hebrew, Syriac, Ehiopic, Persian and Greek-definitely compilers of Koran used Hudaic and Christian sources, extensively

3 Ali Dashti criticizes extensively Muhammed's style-despite the obvious rhetorical power

4 Several verses were missing and several later added

5 Unusual words and phrases: Verses 1-5 of sura 78 obviously have been added and so were verse 15 of sura 20-on and on

6 Sura 2. 105: Whatever verses we (ie., God) cancel or cause you to forget, we bring a better or its like". The number of abrigated versaes range from 5-500. The doctrine of abrogation makes mockery of Muslim dogma that the koran is a faithful and unalterable reproduction of the original scriptures that are presented in heaven!

7 Islam is monotheistic and fails to prove that it is in any way, shape or form is even an iota better than polytheism. he contrary can be proven by just looking around and looking back. Monotheist dogma had killed tens of millions of Hindus and Buddhists-and looted their wealth, raped their women and stole their lands-not to speak of Central Asia, Iran, Middle East, afganistan, North Africa where once more tolerant and more peaceful traditions and freedoms existed, Islam had extinguished them-under the false dogma of monotheism and its sinful arrogance

8 Traditions of paganism abound in Islam-Koran, contracting itself, repeatedly. Polygamy was practised and so was the worship of black ston at Kaaba

9 Koranic god is vengeful and a fabrication. God does not discriminate between believers(in stupidity?) and unbelievers. Does not exhort to kill any of his creations. Does not just speak in Arabic, only-a mindless fabrication

9 For the historian, the Arabs are no more the descendents of Abraham than the French are of Francus, son of Hector-Maxime Rodinson

10 It is virtually certain that Abraham never reached Mercca-Montgomery Watt: Ie., Koran was a later compilation and a fabrication

11 Noah and the Flood:It is taken from the genesis

12 Koran gives contradictory accounts of creation: Heaven and earth and in between 6 days? Sura 41 says it was in 8 days!

13 Where is the Evolution?

14 Miracles: Are a violation of the law of nature

15 Koran talks of Christ's virgin birth which many Christinas think a fasbrication

16 Lot of Judaism and Christianity were sources for Koran-besides Persian and Greek traditrions

17 Ayesha said once after the prophet taking the nth wife that he gets revelations whenever "convenient"!

On and on

I disagree with you on Koran and the political/military/colonial ideology of Islam, but I love all Moslems and ALL creation


Rose
New York, United States
Dec 22, 2008 12:00 AM
106
Arundhati Roy:

Please meet and interview the likes of Wafa Sultan and Hirsi Ali. They would dispel your ignorance of Islam, assuming you are writing out of ignorance and not as a stealth or an open jihadi
Rose
New York, United States
Dec 22, 2008 12:00 AM
105
ROSE
NEW YORK UNITED STATES

..continued...
This is an example of an allegorical line from the Qur'an(quoted ad verbatim)..'..surely Allah was well pleased with them when they swore allegiance to you (Prophet) under the tree and he knew what was in their hearts so He rewarded them with a near victory...'
These are the lines from the Book, I read them but they do not relate to me personally.
The point is that many such lines are situational and taken out of context, as done by the fundamentalists, render an entirely different color.
Azeem Taqi
Nashville, United States
Dec 22, 2008 12:00 AM
104
ROSE
NEW YORK UNITED STATES
When the Koran itself is known to have been compiled couple of centuries after the Prophet,..

No Mam! The Qur'an was revealed in its entirety to the Prophet himself.
About the Hadith's,like I mentioned in my earlier post, there are certainly lots of fake ones and,naturally, one has to live by what one believes to be correct. In this context, I remember a nice thing my Hindi teacher told me as a child (because I had made horrible spelling mistakes), ' Yaad rakho, Bhagwan ne bhi aap ka dimag upar aur dil niche banaya hai. Hamesha dimag se kaam kiya karo'. In this serious context, I take my teacher's advice and do not follow whatever any one says, my conscience has to approve it, and it does not and will never approve hurting anyone.
Coming to the oft abused term, 'kafir',it literally means 'one that does not belong to' and goes back to the time when the Prophet started preaching Islam. Some accepted, some did not, and the distinguishing line was 'Muslim' (who believed) and'Kafir' (who did not).It is a general term and not meant to be religious. There was absolutely no force, looking down upon, etc at all. This was illustrated by the following lines from the Qur'an;
1) 'There is no compulsion in religion.' and
2) 'O Prophet! On you lies only the deliverance of the message'
Put into our daily tone, if,say, there was a classification - group of women, I would be a 'kafir'.Nothing wrong in it.
When I say I am a Muslim, I mean I believe in the Oneness of God and logically following it, the oneness of all peoples, I pray and give charity, that's it. A vast majority of my friends are naturally Hindus and neither they nor I have any issues. We have excellent family friendships running for ever.
On the issue of terrorism, any and every form of violence and discord, no matter for what reason is obviously wrong - be it 911, Madrid, Mumbai in our times or Pol Pot, Hitler, Stalin - the ideology of hate is itself hateful.
Naturally, it is the duty of the captains of faith to come out openly against the LET, and their ilk - to say and do what they can against it in tandem with the government.
Though I have never seen the inside of a 'madrassa', I have heard about many of them poisoning young minds. It is the duty of the powers that be to monitor their activities and stop it when they digress.
As an individual, I publicly (like on this forum) and individually too, do my best to unite hearts in whichever way I can.
Finally, I believe that for the general Muslim community, it is imperative that we promote secular education in a big way, become contributing citizens in whichever society we belong, and summarily boycott and chuck the obscurantist elements into the dustbin of history. That is what is good for our country and for us a community.
This hate begetting hate has to end, and now.
Azeem Taqi
Nashville, United States
Dec 22, 2008 12:00 AM
103
"Whereas AP has mostly resorted to abuses when faced with inconvenient and indefensible questions by calling the opposite ignorant, retard, idiot, and at times jugglery of words" Bharathy

Ghulam typical language of Islam-filled with hatred and abuse for the Infidel Hindus. Add to it the combination of senility and lunacy-a perfect make up of a theocratic fanatic, under a "secular" garb in India, under a civil rights garb (CAIR) in the US. When Azeem Taqi asked him as to who pays Ghulam to write these posts, he never answered. Ghulam was once forced to admit that the Mullahs are worse than the Al Queda. The follow through was-what do you with the Mullahs who are worse than the Al Queda? Asking for their banishment from India, if they are worse than the Al Queda, makes sense. This scoundrel then accuses me under wrong names(out of senility) and a result of his nefarious role as a Thought Cop)repeatedly.

He diverts attentioan away from the tragedy of Kashmiri Pundits and their dismemberment where they once were an overwhelming majority in Kashmir-this no Indian can affird to ignore. The Indian army's response to LeT terror can not be conflated to the ethnic cleansing of Hindus in less than 4 centuries. Hindu response to Islamic terror does not approach the scale of defensive bombings by the Allies, during the Second W War. Islamic thocracy is far more dangerous since Fascism, Nazism, Stalin's Gulags, Mao's Red Guards, Pol Pots, etc etc- all disppeared in a few decades, mercifully. The Thocratic menace has to be confronted by EDUCATING all Hiindus and the entire world-by making them AWARE of their present and the past. Only then they will have the fortitude and courage to face up to and defeat this menace, permanently

Rose
New York, United States
Dec 22, 2008 12:00 AM
102
You probably stand by all your fawning posts!
ANWAR PATEL
DALLAS TX UNITED STATES

Anwar, if standing by the truth means 'fawning' in your dictionary,yes, I do stand by it.
I fail to understand how you have the gall to defend murderers by diverting attention.
OK, Stalin, Mussolini, Hitler were bad but does that justify what fundamentalists have done and are doing misusing religion?
Azeem Taqi
Nashville, United States
Dec 22, 2008 12:00 AM
101
Rose/Bodepudi,

>> Add to it the combination of senility and lunacy-a perfect make up of a theocratic fanatic.

Seems you are losing it! Seems all hate pracharaks come to this! Since your attempts to deny the fact that you had actually advocated murders and even genocide did not work, you have now let loose your bizarre and tendentious all-out attack which raises the question of your being mentally imbalanced.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 22, 2008 12:00 AM
100
"Whereas AP has mostly resorted to abuses when faced with inconvenient and indefensible questions by calling the opposite ignorant, retard, idiot, and at times jugglery of words" Bharathy

Ghulam typical language of Islam-filled with hatred and abuse for the Infidel Hindus. Add to it the combination of senility and lunacy-a perfect make up of a theocratic fanatic, under a "secular" garb in India, under a civil rights garb (CAIR) in the US. When Azeem Taqi asked him as to who pays Ghulam to write these posts, he never answered. Ghulam was once forced to admit that the Mullahs are worse than the Al Queda. The follow through was-what do you with the Mullahs who are worse than the Al Queda? Asking for their banishment from India, if they are worse than the Al Queda, makes sense. This scoundrel then accuses me under wrong names(out of senility) and a result of his nefarious role as a Thought Cop)repeatedly.

He diverts attentioan away from the tragedy of Kashmiri Pundits and their dismemberment where they once were an overwhelming majority in Kashmir-this no Indian can affird to ignore. The Indian army's response to LeT terror can not be conflated to the ethnic cleansing of Hindus in less than 4 centuries. Hindu response to Islamic terror does not approach the scale of defensive bombings by the Allies, during the Second W War. Islamic thocracy is far more dangerous since Fascism, Nazism, Stalin's Gulags, Mao's Red Guards, Pol Pots, etc etc- all disppeared in a few decades, mercifully. The Thocratic menace has to be confronted by EDUCATING all Hiindus and the entire world-by making them AWARE of their present and the past. Only then they will have the fortitude and courage to face up to and defeat this menace, permanently

Rose
New York, United States
Dec 22, 2008 12:00 AM
99
Rose/Bodepudi,

>> Add to it the combination of senility and lunacy-a perfect make up of a theocratic fanatic.

Seems you are losing it! Seems all hate pracharaks come to this!
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 22, 2008 12:00 AM
98
Rose/Bodepudi,

>> The above is a logical consequence in light of polygamy.

How many polygamous Muslims have you met? I saw a report which said there are more Hindus involved in more than one relationship than Muslims in India.

>> Koranic commandments to kill Hindus.

You keep repeating this lie when you yourself are the shameless hate pracharak who advocated murders and genocide in this forum!
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 22, 2008 12:00 AM
97
OUTLOOK Management:

Please have your viewers post without names since views count-names are important for the informants only
Rose
New York, United States
Dec 21, 2008 12:00 AM
96
"People have said that the the reason for these attack was that there is injustice, that Indian Muslims are economically disadvantaged in India, that they have much lower educational qualifications, they have much higher unemployment rates and then of course there is the great injustice of Kashmir"

Let's go deeper into this fraudulent propaganda, the "ROOT CAUSES", theory

1 Islam inevitably incubates the vicious poverty cycle, with no family planning. There is the true stroy of a famous musician who was given monetary compensation running into crores and yet was desperately poor because his family consisted of a veritable tribe, by itself (over 200 members of an extended family)

2 The above is a logical consequence in light of polygamy and lack of self respect among Muslim women-the founder had 19 wives!

3 The virtual slavery of Muslim women under the veil-ensures that this poverty cycle is closed

4 Kashmir: Indian army's response to LeT and other terror gangs in Kashmir INEVITABLY leads to innocent deaths-since there is wide spread support for theocratic terror

5 Kasmiri Pundits were ethnically cleansed out-from a majority at one time to near total disappearance today. This is the crux of the Kashmir issue

Let's debate the ROOT CAUSES theory further

The ROOT CAUSE is Islam itself-the Koranic commandments to kill Hindus and their use of jihad for spreading Islam's imperialist hegemony
Rose
New York, United States
Dec 21, 2008 12:00 AM
95
"Whereas AP has mostly resorted to abuses when faced with inconvenient and indefensible questions by calling the opposite ignorant, retard, idiot, and at times jugglery of words" Bharathy

Ghulam typical language of Islam-filled with hatred and abuse for the Infidel Hindus. Add to it the combination of senility and lunacy-a perfect make up of a theocratic fanatic, under a "secular" garb in India, under a civil rights garb (CAIR) in the US. When Azeem Taqi asked him as to who pays Ghulam to write these posts, he never answered. Ghulam was once forced to admit that the Mullahs are worse than the Al Queda. The follow through was-what do you with the Mullahs who are worse than the Al Queda? Asking for their banishment from India, if they are worse than the Al Queda, makes sense. This scoundrel then accuses me under wrong names(out of senility) and a result of his nefarious role as a Thought Cop)repeatedly.

He diverts attentioan away from the tragedy of Kashmiri Pundits and their dismemberment where they once were an overwhelming majority in Kashmir-this no Indian can affird to ignore. The Indian army's response to LeT terror can not be conflated to the ethnic cleansing of Hindus in less than 4 centuries. Hindu response to Islamic terror does not approach the scale of defensive bombings by the Allies, during the Second W War. Islamic thocracy is far more dangerous since Fascism, Nazism, Stalin's Gulags, Mao's Red Guards, Pol Pots, etc etc- all disppeared in a few decades, mercifully. The Thocratic menace has to be confronted by EDUCATING all Hiindus and the entire world-by making them AWARE of their present and the past. Only then they will have the fortitude and courage to face up to and defeat this menace, permanently
Rose
New York, United States
Dec 21, 2008 12:00 AM
94
this line of they-resent-our-success is such an old line, he's just being a copycat and lifting that idea straight out of the 2001 bush speech. and it goes back further in the ideology of colonialism. mid 1840s-mid 1870s was a period when free trade liberalism was in vogue in britain (src gilmour, r, p 180). the 1857 indian mutiny swung political opinion straight into empire and the "predatory" .. "ideology of possession" and made that seem like a high minded ideal. see, you can go to cambridge and write excellent novels and still come out with dumb copycat statements such as "the pakistani elite resent india's success" and "pakistan is a basketcase". oh salman, i heard that there is a magical land halfway between florence and the bosphorus, where a lady at the local bodyshop has a special ointment for self-hating muslims who suffer from an imbalance of the thyroid and an extended detached tongue like an ant-eater for specialized boot-licking. why don't you try rubbing yourself vigorously with it. it might help. otherwise you'll end up like ...oh michael jackson (formerly black and normal, now white and freaky w way too much bleaching and plastic surgery) or even v.s. naipaul, who wanted to be soo very english that he now breaks out helplessly into acute diarrhea and vomiting all through his books. you don't want to go there.
Arul Francis
Clayton, California
Dec 21, 2008 12:00 AM
93
Bharathiy,

>> mostly resorted to abuses.

You are talking absolute rubbish. I have shown you friend again and again how he is wrong, but he keeps coming back with the same old arguments. Someone whose sole purpose in being in this forum is to carry out hate propaganda is not going to be interested in any arguments.

And regarding your post to SR, neither Arundhati nor SR justify terrorism, nor do they rationalize violence. What gave you the impression that they do?

My last post to you on this subject.

Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 21, 2008 12:00 AM
92
>>>>>>"Arundhati Roy in her article had actually written: "We're told one of these hotels is an icon of the city of Mumbai. That's absolutely true. It's an icon of the easy, obscene injustice that ordinary Indians endure every day."--Ed ]

Rushdie responds: "I thought that particular remark in her piece was disgusting. The idea that the deaths of the rich don't matter because they are rich is disgusting."

Firstly, it is irresponsible and incredibly mean spirited of Rushdie to repeat the words of a television vigilante against Arundhati Roy, words that she explicitly referred to in her essay as incitement. When the general populace is feeling murderous towards anybody who presents a nuanced view, I completely agree with Roy that to say "Arundhati Roy, we think you are disgusting" on national television, is pretty much like Khomeini's fatwa - incitement to go out and 'get' somebody. And then Rushdie, who has experienced fatwas himself, repeats this, *after* reading Roy's essay, where she says she objects to it? He's clearly forgotten what it feels like to have people gather a mob to go out and get you - instead (eager to be on the other side for a change, perhaps), he joins the mob himself!

Secondly - can Rushdie read? The declining quality of his books suggests that he may have stopped reading. Where, pray, did Arundhati Roy say anything like what he is imputing to her - that the deaths of the rich don't matter?? What she said was "the Taj is an icon for the easy, obscene injustice that ordinary Indians endure every day". Anything there about the lives or deaths of those who died within? I can't see it, Mr Rushdie - did you dream it up? Perhaps you should start reading again, so you can more clearly understand the written word. Until then, do spare us such misreadings - which I genuinely hope are unintentional, because if intentional, they suggest a troubling level of malice.

It was always clear that Arundhati Roy's formidable talent, intellect, personality and beauty provoked an automatic spray of venom from the general direction of men and women of small heart, shaky self esteem and middling intelligence. It's sad that Rushdie (who, despite the tragic loss of his writing abilities, still has much to be proud of) should join such a band of mediocre stone-throwers.
Vine Sivan
Kolkata, India
Dec 21, 2008 12:00 AM
91
Corrected post:

Learned/Thiagan,

>> Now you are abusing the framers of the Constitution.

I was abusing the quoter who is a hate-filled retard calling himself "The Learned"! What a joke!
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 21, 2008 12:00 AM
90
Learned/Thiagan,

>> Now you are abusing the framers of the Constitution.

I was abusing the quoter who is a hate-filled retard calling himself "The Educated"! What a joke!
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 21, 2008 12:00 AM
89
Rose/Bodepudi,

>> couldn't remember saying that the theocratic fascist terror against Hindus was relatively "benevolent".

Why are all hate pracharaks such liars? I had said that Muslim conquests were no more bloody than conquests all over the world throughout history.

>> Nazis were better than the other thugs-like the Mussolinis, Tojos, Pol pots, Stalin's Gulags, Mao's Red Guards.

What a stupid lie! I have never said the Nazis were better than anyone ever in anything. All genociders are equally evil. Since you only advocated genocide without participating in one, you are slightly better than them.

>> said Ahmedinejad was one of his two heroes.

You have been repeating this shameless lie for the 4th or the 5th time. I have never called him anything other than a lunatic.

>> preventing Hindus expressing their ideas in their only land of birth by complaining to OUTLOOK.

If you use this forum for your systematic hate campaign and for advocating murder or genocide, and if you try to post messages using my ID, it is appropriate to report your misdeeds to the editor.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 21, 2008 12:00 AM
88
"I do recollect writing that and stand by it."
Azeem Taqi recollecting his apt observation
regarding who pays Ghulam to write such posts

Unfortunately, the senile theocrat couldn't remember saying that the theocratic fascist terror against Hindus was relatively "benevolent" ( saying that the Nazis were better than the other thugs-like the Mussolinis, Tojos, Pol pots, Stalin's Gulags, Mao's Red Guards), otr that he said Ahmedinejad was one of his two heroes, and that he is SINGULARLY responsible for preventing Hindus expressing their ideas in their only land of birth by complaining to OUTLOOK, acting like a Nazi Thought Cop, being DELIBERATERLY silent on the genocide of Kashmiri Pundits, on ethnic cleansing of Hindus in Pakistan and Bangla Desh. What a shameful hate pracharak and a stealth jihadi!

He doesn't deserve to be read are conversed with. Please ignore this anti-Hindu theocrat
and focus on our dialogue. Don't disasappear and leave space for these Sunni jihadis working over time to Islamize India, with Saudi money and Demographics
Rose
New York, United States
Dec 21, 2008 12:00 AM
87
Rose/Bodepudi,

>> Why the differentiation between believers and Infidels?

Your ignorance has been pointed out and corrected several times, but it seems that for some reason you need to hold on to your ignorance.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 21, 2008 12:00 AM
86
Rose/Bodepudi,

>> While the most recent terror attack in Mumbai is afresh, why should any one apread such malicious hate, lies and vicious propaganda unless Ghulam Fatruki is on some one's pay roll?

Liar, it is you who is usually off topic, spreading your anti-Islamic venom irrespective of whatever the topic might be.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 21, 2008 12:00 AM
85
Azeem,

>> I do recollect writing that and stand by it.

You probably stand by all your fawning posts!
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 21, 2008 12:00 AM
84
>> UCC is not an issue that impinges either on democracy or secularism.

Of course it is. Pretending otherwise is communal.

>> However this is not a subject for a hate-driven moron like you.

It is a subject for all Indians, including hate filled ones.
Al Bundy
San Francisco, United States
Dec 21, 2008 12:00 AM
83
Rose/Bodepudi,

>>>> You have no shame!" Anwar Faruki
>> For being an Infidel?

For being a liar and hate pracharak, and for advocating murder and even genocide.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 21, 2008 12:00 AM
82
Banito/Lalit,

>> we agree that muslims in india are backward,

So are many Hindus. Even some Hindus in Denmark are backward. Look at yourself!
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 21, 2008 12:00 AM
81
Rose/Bodepudi,

>> Islam-as an ideology that treats infidels as inferior and preaches jihad against them.

The less you know, the more you preach ; that is the hate pracharak's creed.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 21, 2008 12:00 AM
80
"The Arabs hijacked Islam and gave it their own skewed view which they then and to this day continue to poison young minds with. Another source of Muslim jurisprudence is the 'Hadith' (traditions of the Prophet). Here too, we have 12,000 sources, some written by people who lived centuries after the Prophet and never spoke a word of Arabic.Obviously, there are lots of fake 'Hadiths' and I summarily reject what I believe is not from the Prophet.
When I pass it thru' the filter of my mind, I apply it to my day to day life. When following the 'Sunnat' (way of the Prophet), I know it means praying, fasting, giving charity, living in peace with all, etc and not literally - I co not speak Arabic, wear an Arab dress or travel by camel." AT

Dearest Brother Azeem:

Precisely. When the Koran itself is known to have been compiled couple of centuries after the Prophet, when the hadiths wrt to bigamy, (black) stone worship at Kaaba, and even the stories of abraham were paganic and pre-Islamic, why to revere such a human-creation as the Word of God? Even the most charming Ayesha said once that the prophet gets revelations whenever it was convenient! Of course, there are moral precepts in Islam (not original) like in any other faith and following them does good to all, not just to Muslims. Why the differentiation between believers and Infidels? If the jihad was just contextual and its meaning referred only to a time and place, why then the Islamic world did not protest in their tens of millions against the abuse of jihad by the terrorists soon after the 9/11? On the contrary, there were millions marching in support of Bin Laden! The Muslim world overwhelmingly supported the horrific events! Why? why did not the Mullahs march and protest against Bin Laden? Against LeT? Against Al Queda? Against genocide of Kashmiti Pundits? Against the ethnic cleansing in Pakitan of ALL Minorities? In Bangla Desh? Against Sadam Hussein's use of WMD agiant Iran and the Kurds? Slaughter of Iraninans, non-stop, for 8 years? Against Pakistani genocide in Bangla Desh? In Sudan? In Nigeria? In Algeria? In Somalia?

How many in the Muslim world did march against the Madrid, London, Bali and the unending Indian terror bombings? What's wrong?

It's an Islamic pathology-not a healthy unifying physiology. Religions Unite-nevber DIVIDE. Religions bring peace-do not wage wars. Religions are NEVER teritorial. Islam certainly is and was!

Please answer these queries, one by one. I am willing and anxious to learn from you
Rose
New York, United States
Dec 21, 2008 12:00 AM
79
To Rose,
In one of your posts, you have mentioned about the faith itself advocating violence.
I'd just like to put in my bit on it, of course, in no way digressing from the truth that the LET, and their ilk are the scum of the earth and deserve nothing but bullets.
I had mentioned it in an earlier post (I do not remember to whom) that in the Qur'an itself states that parts of it are quintessential (such as the Oneness of God, the Day of Judgment, etc) and parts are allegorical (stated in a given context). The Arabs hijacked Islam and gave it their own skewed view which they then and to this day continue to poison young minds with. Another source of Muslim jurisprudence is the 'Hadith' (traditions of the Prophet). Here too, we have 12,000 sources, some written by people who lived centuries after the Prophet and never spoke a word of Arabic.Obviously, there are lots of fake 'Hadiths' and I summarily reject what I believe is not from the Prophet.
When I pass it thru' the filter of my mind, I apply it to my day to day life. When following the 'Sunnat' (way of the Prophet), I know it means praying, fasting, giving charity, living in peace with all, etc and not literally - I co not speak Arabic, wear an Arab dress or travel by camel.
Obviously, I practice my faith as an individual, respect the faith of others and live like just another regular part of society.
I am personally more spiritual than religious and have read, besides the Qur'an, the Torah, the Bible, Granth Sahib, Zenda Avesta, and the Bhagvad Geeta and have come across any number of cases where I was totally foxed but concluded that the context is beyond my understanding.
An example - the laws of Manu stated in the 'Manusmruti' were to have an equitable division of labor and not to look down upon others yet that happens.
Hitler was a criminal but one cannot blame Chrisitanity for it.
Likewise, the LET, Taliban, Aurangzeb, etc are crooks but please don't blame the faith for it.
There are millions like me who treat faith as a personal affair and abhor and call for the utter destruction of terrorists like all right minded people do.
Azeem Taqi
Nashville, United States
Dec 21, 2008 12:00 AM
78
"The idea that the 12 members of the Taj staff, who heroically gave their lives to save many of the guests, are to be discounted because they were presumably the lackeys of the rich -- this is nauseating. This is amoral. And she should be ashamed of herself." SR

Absolutely! Equally revolting is the thought that while Hindu Pundits were ethnically clansed out, systemically over the last 4 centuries from Kashmir, and during the last 15 years, most tragically, you talkof the excesses of Indian soldiers reacting to LeT and Al Queda?

Of more serious issue is the ethinic cleansing of Hindus-Buddhists in Pakistan, Bangla Desh, Afganistan, Persia and in Kashmir. You are talking only the side issue of MARGINAL importance ie., the Al; queda, LeT and the ISI. Of more importance is the Koran itself-its call for Jihad against Infidels, globally
Rose
New York, United States
Dec 21, 2008 12:00 AM
77
//Dear Azeem:
You once queried Ghulam Faruki as to who pays him to write posts here. By repeating it I wanted to tell you how correct that query was, and is
ROSE
NEW YORK UNITED STATES

Yes, Rose! I do recollect writing that and stand by it.
Extremely sorry for misunderstanding your mail.
Azeem."

Absolutely! While the most recent terror attack in Mumbai is afresh, why should any one apread such malicious hate, lies and vicious propaganda unless Ghulam Fatruki is on some one's pay roll?
Though this topic is diversionary from the terror
one keeps wondering why he is so psychotic and compehensively lunatic?

Rose
New York, United States
Dec 21, 2008 12:00 AM
76
rose

some one-i dont have the patience- should priny out faruki,s comments and show them to a shrink.

i know what he would say.

there is nothing right with the left side of his brain. and there is nothing left of the right side. the man is bonkers, and a very abusive one
at that. i pity his poor family. he must be an
embarrasment to them.
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
Dec 21, 2008 12:00 AM
75
Learned/Thiagan,

>> He is only suggesting;

Only suggesting that all mosques be razed, all imams killed and a genocide be carried out? Suggesting it is okay? What kind of vicious demon are you?

>> It is I who quoted extensively from Constituent Assembly debates.

Your quotations are partial and meaningless. UCC is not an issue that impinges either on democracy or secularism. A model UCC has never been formulated. Hindus, Muslims, Christians, Parsis and Jews have their own interpersonal laws. Jewish civil laws are still operational in Britain. But I do advocate drastic reforms in sharia, giving equal rights to women, and making the laws more consonant with the times. Attempts to draw up a UCC should also be underway. However this is not a subject for a hate-driven moron like you.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 21, 2008 12:00 AM
74
Dear Azeem:
You once queried Ghulam Faruki as to who pays him to write posts here. By repeating it I wanted to tell you how correct that query was, and is
ROSE
NEW YORK UNITED STATES

Yes, Rose! I do recollect writing that and stand by it.
Extremely sorry for misunderstanding your mail.
Azeem.
Azeem Taqi
Nashville, United States
Dec 21, 2008 12:00 AM
73
Azeem, If someone says they believe in the Flying Spagetti Monster is God and Creator, how do you disprove them or argue with them without "hurting" their feelings?
VIJAY
CHENNAI INDIA

Vijay ji, what I meant was not to accept whatever they say. Everyone has a right to choose whatever faith he wishes to follow and should respect that right in others.
Agreed Islamic fundamentalists are criminals and must be treated as such.
The point I was referring to was the offensive paintings by M F Hussain, the book, 'The Satanic Verses' by Salman Rushdie, the derogatory statements made by Karunanidhi during the Ram Setu issue and the like.
We anyways have enough problems to solve why do people names above create new ones? This was the point I was making.
A reader asked me what I would do about it and my reply is - absolutely nothing - I am a small man living his own life with no power to do anything. My views are those, I believe, that are shared across the spectrum by most people looking only for peace among all.

Azeem Taqi
Nashville, United States
Dec 21, 2008 12:00 AM
72
"Anwar and me have more often than not disagreed and,incidentally-" Azeem Taqi

Dear Azeem:

You once queried Ghulam Faruki as to who pays him to write posts here. By repeating it I wanted to tell you how correct that query was, and is
Rose
New York, United States
Dec 21, 2008 12:00 AM
71
"You have no shame!" Anwar Faruki

For being an Infidel? We are proud of Hinduism and Buddhism-and Sikhism and Jainism. Have you hard of them killing tens of millions in Saudi Arabia and raging tens of thousands of Mosques? Destroying Mecca and Medina? Raping Arab women in their hundreds of thousands? Buring the Arabs' books and libraries? Stealing 40% od Sausi arabia, by terror and demographics?

If Hindus did all of the above, ONLY then your query will have relevance. There is glaring history and proof of the PRESENT that Muslims had done all of the above and have jihadis defending them, to boot!

You said in this very forum that the Mullahs are worse than Al Queda. Why don't you then banish them from India by closing their safe havens?

You are truly a shameless hate pracharak
Rose
New York, United States
Dec 21, 2008 12:00 AM
70
ROSE
NEW YORK UNITED STATES

Hello! How did my name crop into your mail to Anwar Patel?
Anwar and me have more often than not disagreed and,incidentally, I am just another middle class fellow minding only my own business, got nothing to do with any organization whatsoever, and haveing neither the money to bankroll anything except a middle class life for myself and my immediate family.
If you have an angst against something I said, please, please address me directly and we could always discuss matters but please do not link me with anyone.
Azeem Taqi
Nashville, United States
Dec 21, 2008 12:00 AM
69
faruki

we agree that muslims in india are backward,

in your words

aaa the muslims produce a few doctors and engineers-the rest pull rickshaws

bbb islam will take a 100 to 200 years to reform.

ccc islam has inbuilt resistance to change.

pakistan is the mirror image of most indian muslims. seldom has a country tried to carry out
relentless attacks against a neighbouring country.all the time talking of peace and trade.

muslims in india -or many of them- resemble
pakistani,s in their mindsets-

i dont both to smear people like you. it is being done on tv and other news media world wide.
you dont have the guts to take on these people. instead you insult and abuse others, whose views
are based on news from mainstream papers-newsweek, new york times, econonomist.

thats it.

no sensible person should have anything to do with you.its degradeing.

ps pakistan is a mirror image of indian muslims.
a failed state. the epicentre of terrorism- mms

not all your angry rebuttals can change this fact
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
Dec 21, 2008 12:00 AM
68
Banito/Lalit,

>> criticiseing islam and muslims here in this forum.

What you call criticizing is nothing but smearing! You are just a gutter level hatemonger. Stop giving yourself airs.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 21, 2008 12:00 AM
67
Rose/Bodepudi,

>> your defense of Islamic pogroms against Hindus-support for CAIR and other terrorist-support units.

More lies from a rabid hate pracharak! You will not be able to lie your way out of the fact that you have advocated murder and even genocide in this forum. You also tried fraudulently posting in this forum using my ID. You have no shame!
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 21, 2008 12:00 AM
66
>> but Hindus have both the right and an obligation to defend their lands, culture, and freedoms in SELF defense while praying for the welfare of ALL human beings without any semblance of a contradiction

What do you suggest on how to go about doing it?
Kumar
Bangalore, India
Dec 21, 2008 12:00 AM
65
Ideology Vs its victims, the individuals

It's the fascist IDEOLOGY that we fought against and its OPEN defenders, in order to defeat and destrot that ideology. Ditto with Stalin's and Mao's and of Islam-as an ideology that treats infidels as inferior and preaches jihad against them (irrespective of how many Muslims follow suit). I the same way, it's the ideology of CASTE and not Brahmins as individulas that we needed fighting against.

This is the distinction we need to be AWARE of all the time and avoid violence against ANY INNOCENT individials as a tool for change. There was the famous story of a Bodhisattva killing a would-be terrorist on a boat who otherwise would have killed hundreds of passengers. None of the Buddhists would even approve of such defensive violence but Hindus have both the right and an obligation to defend their lands, culture, and freedoms in SELF defense while praying for the welfare of ALL human beings without any semblance of a contradiction. Let's pray that all peace loving Muslims live longer than any on eaerth, have more wealth and always are happy with 10 times more fortune and luckthan the rest (including virgins and all).

Rose
New York, United States
Dec 20, 2008 12:00 AM
64
"This from a hate pracharak who has advocated destruction of all mosques and killing the imams and has even advocated genocide!" Anwar Patel/??????

Your old age (80?) and senility should be no excuse for spreading LIES with no proof and calling me by wrong names, REPEATEDLY. Your jihado pay roll is an open book ("who pays you to write such trash? Azeem Taqi) and your defense of Islamic pogroms against Hindus-support for CAIR and other terrorist-support units, Madarasa-based jihadi groups in India and in the US-Claiming Ahmedinejad as your hero-igniring ethnic cleansing of Hindus in Kashmir, Pakistan and Bangla Desh-with malicious delight

Rose
New York, United States
Dec 20, 2008 12:00 AM
63
BHARATIY

I have no desire to question your liguistic skills.

Yes. Please read my posts again and follow the thread. They were meant to be a response to postings by SATHISH.
Pradip Singh
stafford, uk
Dec 20, 2008 12:00 AM
62
"But I think the third part of it that has become increasingly clear is perhaps the dominant element and that is the absolute duplicity and hypocrisy of the Pakistani state. So much so that even today, the President of Pakistan, interviewed by the BBC said there is no evidence that Pakistan was involved in this. Even when the father of the surviving terrorist has identified his son as being a Pakistani, the President of Pakistan says that is not evidence." SR

Now the whole world is given a proof-before, only India had it but it couldn't convince the world because of its cowardice and spinelessness-arising out of its corruption and the wholesale sell out to the jihadi money/vote bank

Rose
New York, United States
Dec 20, 2008 12:00 AM
61
Rushdie,have you understand the real problem of terrorism? Brutality, Incompetence and Cynical Duplicity is there but WHY?
Your all argument are superficial, if terrorism is not brutal,there is no meaning to terrorism.
Indian are Incompetence from last ten century. have you read Indian history? Hindu never wrote , never read, never learn from history, that was their great great tredition from last ten century.
You third point Zardari``s Cynical Duplicity, had you know who is real ruler of Pakishan?ARMY, without army`s consent Zardari donot take tiny decision.Army is dead against U.S. Army donot want to slove the Kashmir issue.Kashmir and hating India is bread and butter of Pakishani Army.If there is peace between India and Pakishan that one is death of Pakishani Army.You expect sucide of Pak army?
Ramesh Raghuvanshi
pune, India
Dec 20, 2008 12:00 AM
60
BHARATHIY
and
VIJAY

Don't you understand sarcasm! Read my posts again.
Pradip Singh
stafford, uk
Dec 20, 2008 12:00 AM
59
satish

why dont muslims look at their own community, their own police. pakistan is close by.

visit this islamic heaven- perhaps you will decide to stay.

muslims lecture the whord, usa eu . they never
look at themselves.

saudi arabia beheads lots of pakis foe crimes. no complaints from muslims anywhere.

its only the others who are targeted.
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
Dec 20, 2008 12:00 AM
58
faruki

just ugly retorts. anyway i think its pointless
criticiseing islam and muslims here in this forum. its all over the international media,
and pakistan is an example of islam followed
by tens of millions of pakistani,s.

faruki go tell them that they are not true muslims.take your running shoes along, and wear a bullet proof vest.
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
Dec 20, 2008 12:00 AM
57
Rose/Bodepudi,

>> What Islam had done wherever it went-destroying

This from a hate pracharak who has advocated destruction of all mosques and killing the imams and has even advocated genocide!
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 20, 2008 12:00 AM
56
"But here you have this country that is, broadly speaking, democratic and, broadly speaking, economically successful and, broadly speaking, free. On the other hand you have this basket case, you know, where the Punjabis hate the Sindhis and everybody hates the North West Frontier and Balochistan is trying to get away." SR

What Islam had done wherever it went-destroying freedoms, cultures and civilizations in North Africa, Middle East, Central Asia, Afganistam Iran and in Northern India (incuding Kashmir)

Rose
New York, United States
Dec 20, 2008 12:00 AM
55
"Three hours to get a fire engine to the Taj, a hotel that stands right next to the water. Twelve hours before the commandos were able to go in because they didn't have a plane to get to Bombay. Etc Etc" SR

Congress should resign and stay in opposition for at least 50 years-Good riddance!
Rose
New York, United States
Dec 20, 2008 12:00 AM
54
Nasar,

"Salman Rushdie is no expert on political matters.Erudition is not enough.His opinions may be published but not in so many pages.That is a waste of paper and reader's time"

Neither is Arudhanti Roy. So what is your point ? She is not even erudite. She wastes more paper for her drivel. Thankfully nowadays readers have stopped wasting their time reading it.
Maha
NJ, United States
Dec 20, 2008 12:00 AM
53
>> Salman Rushdie is no expert on political matters.Erudition is not enough.His opinions may be published but not in so many pages.That is a waste of paper and reader's time.

As opposed to Arundhati Roy who is a political maven? Her "pages" were longer.
vijay
Chennai, India
Dec 20, 2008 12:00 AM
52
>> It is vile these terrible Indians suppressing the peace loving Kashmiris whose only desire is to build a pious and pure Muslim state like the one that was created in 1947.

Yes, we can all see how well THAT worked. lol.

>> The Kafirs deserve no mercy.

OK, I am sure the terrorists will wholeheartedly agree and start with you.
vijay
Chennai, India
Dec 20, 2008 12:00 AM
51
>> continued....and,friend, if everyone starts deciding what is right irrespective of what hurt it causes another, there will surely be disorder.

Azeem, If someone says they believe in the Flying Spagetti Monster is God and Creator, how do you disprove them or argue with them without "hurting" their feelings?

There is as much evidence for the truth of the various "isms" out there as there is evidence for the Flying Spagetti Monster. Given this, the broad analogy is that of a criminal. If you kill one person, you are a murderor, if you kill a million, you are a leader.

If you are the only one believing in FSM, you are delusional, but if a million other believe in the same then it is Relgion. And as a Religion, your beliefs are automatically above debate and you have the right to attack anyone who questions then. (To quote you "You and me will disagree with them but...would it not be sensible to avoid treading on corns?")

The fact of the matter is that unless these tendencies towards blind faith are aggressively confronted, we will bleed through a thousand cuts and MILLIONS will die in addition to the many millions already killed in the name of religion.

There is no live at let live with religious fanatics of any religion. Moderate members of all religions should start siding with moderates of other religions instead of saying "why provoke the extremists" and thus implicitly siding with the worst elements of their own religion.
vijay
Chennai, India
Dec 20, 2008 12:00 AM
50
Salman Rushdie is no expert on political matters.Erudition is not enough.His opinions may be published but not in so many pages.That is a waste of paper and reader's time.
nasar
Raleigh, USA
Dec 20, 2008 12:00 AM
49
Terrorism is a religion in itself. It no longer represents the oppressed. It only uses the oppressed. Terrorism whether it is jehadi, LTTE, ULFA, Naxalism are all one face with various names and thats why they help each other. The so called intellectuals fail to realise this simple truth and support terrorists. Pakistan is a muslim state and yet jehadi terrorists belonging to certain fundamentalist factions are bombing hotels, assassinating a former prime minister blithely. The more peaceful Srilankan tamilians are being assassinated by the lTTE cadres. Terrorist groups are intolerant and impatient in the puruance of absolute power.
pear
mumbai, India
Dec 20, 2008 12:00 AM
48
Pradip Singh, You are shamelessly putting your imaginary and hate-filled words into my mouth. If you cannot understand a simple difference between criticising one's own government for its numerous excesses and outright support for terror, why should I not adopt a patronising attitude towards you? On the other hand, you apparently seem to be unapologetic supporter terrorism (State terrorism/right wing thuggery). Why am I not surprised that 'pot is calling the kettle black'??
Sathish
Pune, India
Dec 20, 2008 12:00 AM
47
BANITOADOLFO
ROMA ITALY

continued....and,friend, if everyone starts deciding what is right irrespective of what hurt it causes another, there will surely be disorder.
A case in point (of course, I thought it up): - If someone were to tell the fundamentalists who attacked Taslima Nasreen why they attacked her since she was merely exercising her right, they would in all probability turn round and say it is their right to attack someone who speaks ill of their faith.

You and me will disagree with them but...would it not be sensible to avoid treading on corns?
How does one have a universal acceptance of rights and wrongs?
Non veg food is right for some but wrong for some.
Rather, do what you like and avoid hurting others.
Azeem Taqi
Nashville, United States
Dec 20, 2008 12:00 AM
46
what would you do to the danish cartoonists, people like dr sultan,tasleema nasreen.
BANITOADOLFO
ROMA ITALY

You asked me what I would do. Exactly what I have done and am doing - absolutely nothing.
I am absolutely indifferent to what anyone does or says so long as it does not affect me.
However, I do believe in respecting the faith,language, culture, et all of others and not hurting anyone's feelings and I believe that is the right thing to do by anyone.
Coming to the issue of hyper sensitivity, agreed the actions of Owaisi,etc against Tasleema Nasreen in Hyderabad, and the death threat to Rushdie are absolutely wrong but the point I am trying to make is - why step on sensitive issues like faith, language, etc for no valid reason except to (ostensibly) get publicity?
Of course, Taslima Nasreen's 'Lajja' highlighting the plight of innocent Hindus in Bangla Desh after the destruction of the Babri Masjid in 1992 was great. She had the courage to stand up for a beleaguered minority and hats off to her for her courage.
Also, it is not just Muslims but people from other faiths too that get hyper over sensitive matters - refer the Baba Sachha Sauda issue in Mumbai and Punjab, the ostracising of gays in the UK, the tirade against M/ F. Hussain for his objectionable drawings,etc. Often these things are done subtly and so do not get wide press coverage but they do exist.
Finally, friend, there are enough problems in the world. Would it not be better to work to solve them rather than create new ones?
Azeem Taqi
Nashville, United States
Dec 20, 2008 12:00 AM
45
Sathish

>>>"But all that he is doing here is to implicitly supports Indian occupation of Kashmir and misuse Mumbai incident to perpetuate Indian occupation and continue killing Kashmiris."

It is vile these terrible Indians suppressing the peace loving Kashmiris whose only desire is to build a pious and pure Muslim state like the one that was created in 1947. The Kafirs deserve no mercy.
Pradip Singh
stafford, uk
Dec 20, 2008 12:00 AM
44
Sathish

>>Anwar, I do understand your need as an Indian Muslim, who have no choice but to reconcile and co-exist with Hindus, but you are making a cardinal mistake of accepting oppressor's conditions in toto."

You must deal those murderous oppressors (with whom you are forced to co-inhabit this land) a fatal blow like your friends did in Mumbai. That is what these terrible Hindus, who have been oppressing Muslims for so long, truly deserve.
Pradip Singh
stafford, uk
Dec 20, 2008 12:00 AM
43
azeem

what would you do to the danish cartoonists, people like dr sultan,tasleema nasreen.

the editor of jyllands posten stated as follows.

muslims can not dictate to us what we shall write or not write. danes mock dronning margrethe
,her husband prince phillip, everything and every body. thats western ideal of free speech.

if muslims dont care for rushdies book, the satanic verses,they can just ignore it.
dan brown has written about jesus christ. no
demonstrations and no fuss.

muslims are hyper sensitive.
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
Dec 20, 2008 12:00 AM
42
Sathish

>>"Do you wish to live as a fool all your life with your ultra-patriotism blinding your eyes from seeing what our ruling elite is doing on our names. do you have anything to add or respond to the questions?
Nevertheless, I do think that this level discussion is enough for bigots like you to start doubting (only if you have the will to)"

I am grateful for this patronising sermon coming from such a liberal and open minded person whose sympathies naturally are with the innocent Kashmiri victims (of course only the Muslims) who have so successfully cleard their land completely of those horrible Kafirs, and mounted such a brave attack on the terrible Indian state. I salute you, Sir. Apart from being a truly enlightened person, you are also an intellectual powerhouse.
Pradip Singh
stafford, uk
Dec 20, 2008 12:00 AM
41
All this talk of fascism of the Indian state, etc is so amusing.

In a not-so fascist state like China, people won't even be able to say these things. Internet filters, secret police behind you at all times, etc.

But India is truly free. Anyone can say anything, do anything in this hopeless country, the government is free to do nothing.

You can crap on the roads, pee on the railway platform, terrorist can freely invade your most well-known and rich city and slaughter hundreds ..

That's true freedom. That's why we cherish our freedom strugle.

(Incidentally, it was not Gandhi or Nehru who gave us freedom, but Hitler. Hitler broke the back of the British empire, forcing Britain to give up its colonies.)

Truly a free country.
sandy
Mumbai, India
Dec 20, 2008 12:00 AM
40
satish

how exactly are you being opressed.

my experience from denmark is that muslims demand more then their share of rights, and some-not all- use all the favours they can get.

many danes have said that they came uninvited, (and many just came as relations later on), and are welcome to leave if they dont like their
country.

imagine the opressed people of kashmir have forced out 400,000 hindu pandits, incidentally
the best educated, out of kashmir.

muslims live in areas where they are a huge majority. they have opportunities to make good.
azamgarh in up is not too badly off. lots ogf muslims work in the gulf, but use all their money to build mosques,madrassahs, and keep their
women at home or in burqa,

now who is opressing them there.
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
Dec 20, 2008 12:00 AM
39
"What India is doing in Kashmir, N-E and SL is much worse what british did in India (in words and deeds)"

Really? Then, bring back the British - as Indians have demonstrated they cannot rule themselves.

A few months back, some prominent editors - chiefly Vir Sanghvi of the Hindustan Times - said the unthinkable. That India should let Kashmir go. He cited figures like population below the poverty line (one of the lowest in India - less than 2%) and the fact that the Indian state spends almost 12 times more per capita on the Kashmiri then the wretched Bihari.

That led to howls of protest.

Quiet a dilemma. Cannot let go; neither can keep Kashmir peacefully.

India will just have to listen to endless lectures for all eternity.
sandy
Mumbai, India
Dec 20, 2008 12:00 AM
38
Wonder if Rushdie typed in a hurry or just did'nt proof read. He went off the topic any number of times, contradicted himself, and at the end of 6 long pages came to an unacceptable conclusion.
To begin with,on Page 1, he insisted on calling the city Bombay and not Mumbai, and the railways station, VT and not Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj terminal - what bearing does this have that so much print and time was wasted on it?
On to Page 3, he goes hammer and tongs after the political class (read government sector undertakings) and in the same breath points out the same failings by the Taj Group which (Indian Hotels) is a private sector undertaking.
On Page 4, he says that the distance between Mumbai and Karachi is 100 miles. No Sir! you are not even remotely close to it. It is a good 550 miles apart.
Finally, on Page 6, in his closing arguments,he suggests Mumbai should have its own defense. What a divisive and hair brained suggestion is this? If every part of India thought like that, what happens to us a nation? Rather than suggesting concrete ways to deal with (God forbid) issues in any part of the country on a war footing and extremely effectively and efficiently, he has the gall to suggest Mumbai is different.
Apart from this article, Mr. Rushdie, I as a common Indian citizen would like to ask you two pointed questions;
1) Aren't you the same person who with his 'Satanic Verses', unprovoked, created law and order problems. If you reiterate the right of 'freedom of speech', friend, your rights end where anther's rights begin. You are more than welcome to follow any faith or no faith at all but are duty bound to respect the feelings and faith of others. Under your facade of flowery language, you are as despicable as that other hypocrite, M. F. Hussain, and
2) Come on, be real, Rushdie. If your heart really bleeds for India and for innocent blood shed, how come you did not utter an alphabet when their were blasts in trains in Mumbai, when blasts rocked Jaipur, Hyderabad, Delhi, Coimbatore, and so many places all over the country over such a long time and with such alarming regularity? One suspects you are writing this now only to curry favor with the rich and famous who have been affected by this terrorist attack. If you really did care about humans per se, you'd adopt the lines expressed so well by the great Che Guevara,
"The life of a single human being is worth a million times more than all the property of the richest man on earth."

It's strange how your pen found words only when the elite were affected?

Azeem Taqi
Nashville, United States
Dec 20, 2008 12:00 AM
37
"Ask yourself the question that if the Kashmir problem were resolve tomorrow, if Israel-Palestine reached a lasting peace, do we believe that al-Qaeda would disband?"

Right on the money. What Arundhati Roy says is to fix our house. Muslim is deprived class, along with Dalits and large section of OBCs.

But it would naive to assume that Jehadis will start loving us once Muslims get fair share. Remember that country's richest man is a Muslim, most popular actor is a Muslim, most celebrated scientist is a Muslim.
Rajesh
Phoenix, United States
Dec 20, 2008 12:00 AM
36
Sathish,

Rushdie has in previous articles expressed his horror at the Gujerat massacre and the justice system going AWOL, and at the excesses of the Indian Army in Kashmir. I agree with you that getting the disaffected and the alienated into the mainstream will take more than speech making.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 20, 2008 12:00 AM
35
Anwar, I do understand your need as an Indian Muslim, who have no choice but to reconcile and co-exist with Hindus, but you are making a cardinal mistake of accepting oppressor's conditions in toto. A conflict can never go way unless the suppressed people are sufficiently empowered to confidently take part in the mainstream affairs. The primary task any sensible person is to force the oppressor to loosen his grips on power.
Sathish
Pune, India
Dec 20, 2008 12:00 AM
34
Anwar, I do not see how Rushdie is correct on the count of kashmir issue and what gallery or you talking about. He is very correct in case of dysfunctional ruling elites of Pakistan and LeT. But what is he trying to convey on Hizbul-Mujaheddin's struggle. Is it legitimate. He is entitled to his personal wishes and opinions. I would have had no problem if he had addressed to Kashmiris to give up their freedom struggle and join Indian mainstream. But all that he is doing here is to implicitly supports Indian occupation of Kashmir and misuse Mumbai incident to perpetuate Indian occupation and continue killing Kashmiris.
Sathish
Pune, India
Dec 20, 2008 12:00 AM
33
The focuses of Rushdie and Arundhati are different. Rushdie rightly condemns Pakistan for its unlawful behavior. Arundhati questions our own lawfulness in view of the fact that people like Modi, Bajrangibabu and Thackerey are still walking free, and we have made a travesty of justice with jokers like the Nanavati Commission and by letting the Srikrishna Commission Report sit on the shelf gathering dust. Rushdie himself has spoken out on these subjects in earlier articles. In the current debate it appears that Rushdie may be playing a bit to the gallery, whereas Arundhati loves nothing more than vexing the gallery. But both of them are saying things that need to be said.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 20, 2008 12:00 AM
32
arul

are you a faggot as well, in addition to being
a simpering ,stupid and repulsive creature.

now what next, after this olympian gesture.
follow socrates and drink hemlock .
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
Dec 20, 2008 12:00 AM
31
I felt so sad when taking the trash out today, standing in the rain next to the blue recycle bin with "midnights children" "imaginary homelands" and "moors last sigh" in my hand. i am discarding those books, to which i am so attached, and also this subconscious belief that culture and literature is path to some kind of civilised tolerant enlightened mental state. and now we see that it is not. salman rushdie bashing down the power ladder, making all those nasty comments about pakistan, like some master beating his servants or some big bully laughing at someone smaller after having thrashed him. so gratuitous and so cruel and so nasty. how could this have happened? how could he end up like this? i just don't understand it.
Arul Francis
Clayton, California
Dec 20, 2008 12:00 AM
30
Pradip, I guess in your state, pure hatred on muslims is considered coherency and few grammatical mistakes alone constitutes incoherency?
Do you wish to live as a fool all your life with your ultra-patriotism blinding your eyes from seeing what our ruling elite is doing on our names. do you have anything to add or respond to the questions?
Nevertheless, I do think that this level discussion is enough for bigots like you to start doubting (only if you have the will to)
Sathish
Pune, India
Dec 20, 2008 12:00 AM
29
satish

muslims kashmir have a good chance of makeing things better. the chief minister is muslim,and also the police.

do you deny there are terrorists, who have an interest in keeping the fire of civil war going.

personally i would rather that the kashmir valley
left india. ditto for assam, northeast states
and bengal. they are the laggards who are holding the rest of india back,

maybe you would join them, no ones gonna hold you back.

india has enormous problems. if difficult states leave, it will make things easier fot the rest.
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
Dec 20, 2008 12:00 AM
28
Mr Satish

You accuse others of incoherence, but your own last post is not exactly a model of clarity.
Pradip Singh
stafford, uk
Dec 20, 2008 12:00 AM
27
satish

the police is there to ensure a peaceful election. there are international observers.

not even kashmiri muslims claim that the last election was unfair.

check it with the leaders of the various parties. mehbooba and omar abdullah. how about ngo,s like arundhati roy, teesta seetalwad, prant bhushan, and thousands og leftists and seculars. go there yourself.

muslims like you blame the others, for not behaveing in a normal manner.theres always some damned excuse.
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
Dec 20, 2008 12:00 AM
26
BANITOADOLFO, Your comments does not even merit any response since it incoherent, idiotic and expressly refuses to involve any reason. Any ways, I try to respond one last time. Let us assume a hypothetical situation, Pakistan claiming a Mughalic legitimacy of ruling India invades us with help of chinese and captures our country. For next 40 years, we fight peacefully against Pakistani occupation but were always suppressed with excessive force. Pakistan even conducts sham elections in India for every five years with out giving Indians right to self-determination. Then, instead of pick up arms against occupiers, I hope, BANITOADOLFOs like you, will preach
"Hindu-Indians have the right tio vote. is that not more sensible then declareing a war.

sometimes i feel that outlook attracks some really crazy cooks, just like dung attracts flies. "

Do you understand meaning of the word hypocrisy??
Sathish
Pune, India
Dec 19, 2008 12:00 AM
25
Pear, What a logic you offer!!, according to your logic, British should have never left india, because, Indian Dalits, N-E people, Tamils and muslims did not want british leave them under the oppressive rule of upper caste hindus. I suppose if colonial Brits were like you, we may have never gained independence. I just using colonialism as a example for you to put in context what you preach. What India is doing in Kashmir, N-E and SL is much worse what british did in India (in words and deeds)
Sathish
Pune, India
Dec 19, 2008 12:00 AM
24
satish

muslims claim to be opressed in britain and france, despite the fact that they are economocally, and in every way better off then in
algeria,or pakistan.

kashmiri,s have the right tio vote. is that not more sensible then declareing a war.

sometimes i feel that outlook attracks some really crazy cooks, just like dung attracts flies.
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
Dec 19, 2008 12:00 AM
23
faruki

"the difference betwee him and arundhati may be purely acadamic"

Now excuse me, but what exactly are you trying to say-

I had a colleague in a engineering company,and
in order to confuse some of the other engineers he used a jargon which left them stumped.

" Because of enthalpy considerations"- or some other irrelavent phrases.Arundhat is no intellectual, as is Salman Rushdie. The other
thing about Rushdie is that he is in the centre
of circles, which includes world class thinkers,
authors, and pretty women.

In comparison Roy is slumming it out with b grade
lawyers and editors, and assorted clowns and
fools.

I have her book "the god of small things" Its unreadable- However I dont intend to trash it.
It has a pretty cover.
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
Dec 19, 2008 12:00 AM
22
That is how joint families breakup. Mother in law becomes the oppressor and daughter in law oppressed. Only difference is mother in law does not possess an army. Every region feels oppressed and every other regionalist wants to separate. Only difference is Kashmiri people have overt support from Pakistan. Arundhati's response to mumbai terror attacks is shallow and callous. And this is not the first terror attack. Does this help the Kashmiri cause in any way? Every thinking person forms many sets of opinion on any given subject. Only some people stick to one opinion and are afraid to entertain any other ideas and they become stubborn to the point of blindness. For example, I feel sometimes that Kashmiris need to decide their own fate but then I think of Kashmiri pandits and Ladakh's buddhists also.
pear
mumbai, India
Dec 19, 2008 12:00 AM
21
Salman Rushdie is clearly torn between his genuine desire for Kashmir to be less Pak-type islamic fundamentalist and need for a peaceful & dignified livelihood for Kashmiris. In his rush to argue for a Kashmir sans islamic fundamentalism, he completely overlooks Indian State's culpabilities and atrocities. Simply, he is barking at the wrong tree. What does he suggest government of India to do in Kashmir? How will we ever reconcile with will of Kashmiris, who rejected Indian entreaties wholesale. (By killing more Kashmiri Muslims?) Why are we so scared to find out what kashmiris want? What is the need for us to suppress a population and occupy their lands and maintain more than a million armed men to enforce our will on them. Where does morality of all those 'outraged hindus' go when 60, 000 kashmiri muslims got killed. How different is modern India from Colonial British vis-a-vis Kashmiris, Lankan Tamils, Punjabis, & N-Easterners? Both these occupiers, rule/ruled native people against their own wish. Middle classist and status-quoers like Rushdie are of no significance in any debate because both oppressor and oppressed can not identify with him in any sense. His positions can only strengthen the people who are already in position of power. It is a shallow response from Rushdie to Arundhati article!
Sathish
Pune, India
Dec 19, 2008 12:00 AM
20
Raj from Germany, how do you assume that I am not contributing anything for India? You are not graceful because you are using dirty four letter words in you anger and frustration which I will never do.
pear
mumbai, India
Dec 19, 2008 12:00 AM
19
Raj from Germany, I am not in Germany to get out. I am a graceful Indian and not a terrorist supporter. Graceful Indians include famous and non famous, naming some is only as a reference point. And Arundhati Roy is a callous cynic. Rushdie may enjoy a luxurious life and that does not prevent him from expressing his feelings. Mine is a voice against terrorists, not an apologist for them. Every terrorist has a cause or grievance but that does not legitimise his or her acts of terrorism. And that cause or grievance is kept alive by vested interests.
pear
mumbai, India
Dec 19, 2008 12:00 AM
18
AP >> Rushdie himself expounds passionately on Kashmir related grievances, but maintains that the grievances do not have anything to do with terrorism... The difference between him and Arundhati may be academic.

The difference between them is more than academic... he confines himself only to lip-service whereas she's never shy of getting into action to show that she's not merely an arm-chair writer... the most important difference is, Rusdhie wants to enjoy his glamorous life and doesn't want to get into a sticky wicket by criticizing too much abt the draconian policies (towards 3rd world) of those very same (western) open societies... whereas Arundathi speaks and stands for what she says and believes...

Rushdie, you better confine yourself to your fantasy writings... an article here and an article there about Kashmir, Bush etc. doesn't make you a political intellectual...

Pear >> India belongs to the graceful Indian muslims like Abdul Kalaam and the Khans of the film industry.

oho! I thought India also belongs to the muslims like the one in the Pan shop at the corner of my street... what do you do Pear? if you don't contribute anything to India, then please fcuk off from my country... now, how does that sound?

AP >> Trying to understand it (terrorism) is not the same thing as trying to justify it.

well said... unfortunately, our society has more sickheads who take Dubya's stand (either you are with us or with them) rather than applying their own minds, i.e, if they have one...

Raj
Leipzig, Germany
Dec 19, 2008 12:00 AM
17
Dear Mr. Rushdie,
A very big thank you! With best wishes.
Raveesh Varma
Grand Rapids, MI, USA
Dec 19, 2008 12:00 AM
16
´pradip singh

quite simply what are the goals of roy and her
salvation band.

quite simply it is to defend and support various odious misfits, terrorists and goons.

a better goal for her would be to work for

aaa the right of kids in india to get at least
2 wholesome meals per day.

bbb to attend a school where they will learn to use their faculties to get as far as they can.

ccc protection of women from ugly husbands, families and others.

ddd to get india to clean up. a danish diplomat in delhi once said to me.

why is india so filty- all over. villages,towns and metroes.

eee to ensure clean drinking water, water to wash
onceself, a good supply of power, decent roads,schools, hospitals for all.

to ignore these most needed areas of attention,
and concentrate on defending a few or many
suspects seems absurd to me.

it shows a pathetic understanding of the reality
of the world today,

when i get angry i think to myself.

lets load these guys into cattle trucks, and
pack them of the pakistan, iran whereever they
wish to go. they can deliver back the indian passport on the wagah border.

outlook india should move to islamabad, and change its name. outlook islam would be an appropriate.
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
Dec 19, 2008 12:00 AM
15
"and how DARE you criticize arundhati,"

arundhati roy should not only be criticised but needs to be tried for spreading lies against india. it is an open fact that even if modi, RSS, BJP, VHP etc are hanged, islamic terrorism is not going to stop. in fact it will grow faster as there will be no one to stop islamic terror. the so called muslim intellectuals are condemning islamic terror because of the fear of RSS/VHP. i am sure they must be supporting the terrorists thro the back door. col purohit, the alleged mastermind of malegaon blasts wanted to take revenge of the genocide of hindus in kashmir. what is wrong with it then?

pakistan and their creations like lashkar want first to break india and then create another pakistan in india. their only aim is to spread islam in india by whatever means. arundhati moron roy simply do not understand this. why can't she go to afghanistan and work for muslims there?. she will be shot.

namo4
London, United Kingdom
Dec 19, 2008 12:00 AM
14
"The difference between him and Arundhati may be academic."

That is total BS. Arundhati is a nutcase who said the parliament attack was an inside job.
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Dec 19, 2008 12:00 AM
13
pear,

"They are forgetting that their community is not being targetted "

they want the muslims to believe that entire muslim population is targetted. this is the only reason muslim politians like antulay come up with these fantastic ideas of hindu terrorism. it is the congress and their so called secular supporters who are creating fear in the minds of muslims.
namo4
London, United Kingdom
Dec 19, 2008 12:00 AM
12
this is how congress spreads hatread and creates divisions between hindus & muslims..

"Even as commandos had just entered the Taj and the Oberoi hotels to overpower terrorists holding Mumbai hostage, a hysterical e-mail went round the country screaming away at ‘RSS complicity’ in the attacks. “...This terror attack in our analysis has been planned and orchestrated by the Sangh Parivar and its allies within the security apparatus to counter the investigation of the ATS led by Hemant Karkare, so as to nullify and deflect attention from the exposé of the BJP-RSS Parivar’s involvement in fomenting terror attacks in the country,” the e-mail from ‘Awami Bharat’ began."


http://www.hindustantim...+of+conspiracy+theories
namo4
London, United Kingdom
Dec 19, 2008 12:00 AM
11
pradip singh

rushdie is considered a superb writer in the english language. he has been honoured several times- last he was knighted by the queen.

He is an ikonoclast- and is book "The satanic verses" really shook the world.

Madrassah guys, choir boys, leftists , seculars
admire Roy, a literary loose cannon, and they ofcource hate Rushdie.

To be expected.
banitoadolfo
roma, Italy
Dec 19, 2008 12:00 AM
10
>>>>"jesus christ!!! it has nothing to do with literature or being an intellectual: just having the basic common sense to see who is the bullier and the bully-ee and take a stand on that; and how DARE you criticize arundhati, you silly piece of styrofoam you; you don't even have one zillionth her insight or her moral integrity to see the big picture of the ugliness of fascism and to call it like it is. oh lord.

i am taking all 3 of your books from my bookshelf and taking them straight to the recycle bin you silly wuss you. and how can you make those ignorant remarks about palestine."

The above remarks can only be described as a frenzied hysterical reaction resulting from an inability to deal with the stark truth.

Pradip Singh
stafford, uk
Dec 19, 2008 12:00 AM
9
>>>The difference between him and Arundhati may be academic.

The above remark is a distortion, probably a deliberate one. There is a very FUNDAMENTAL difference.
Pradip Singh
stafford, uk
Dec 19, 2008 12:00 AM
8
>>>There are graceless and witless muslims like like Antulays and Syed shahabuddins. They dont want to see the truth and resort to all sorts of gimmicks to defend their community from onslaughts. They are forgetting that their community is not being targetted and only terrorists who belong to their community are targetted. It is they who make the average muslim cringe with shame and guilt. India belongs to the graceful Indian muslims like Abdul Kalaam and the Khans of the film industry.


Well said. I totally agree.
Pradip Singh
stafford, uk
Dec 19, 2008 12:00 AM
7
"the bastard child of a Portuguese-English wedding, and yet the most Indian of Indian cities"

"They were ceded to Charles II of England in 1661, as dowry[17] for Catherine de Braganza"


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mumbai


Dowry is imperial , still practised by the rich , with great many social problems for the middle class, who exploit this. Bit piqued between the relation of illegtimacy and dowry.

"Bombay is this entrepreneurial hub. It is efficient. It understands efficiency. It better be given the power, the power, localised political power, to reorganise its own defence"

Agreed.

"On the other hand you have this basket case, you know, where the Punjabis hate the Sindhis and everybody hates the North West Frontier and Baluchistan is trying to get away"

"Punjabis hate the Sindhis" Here you go
Nawaz Sharif's statement.


http://www.expressindia...-Kasab-from-Pak/400494/


Nawaz vs Zardari. Politics is the art of the possible and impossible .... GB Shaw.
gajanan
Sydney, Australia
Dec 19, 2008 12:00 AM
6
Atul,

I would not try to balance out terrorism with anything. It is an unmitigated evil and cannot be justified under any circumstances. Trying to understand it is not the same thing as trying to justify it.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 19, 2008 12:00 AM
5
There are graceless and witless muslims like like Antulays and Syed shahabuddins. They dont want to see the truth and resort to all sorts of gimmicks to defend their community from onslaughts. They are forgetting that their community is not being targetted and only terrorists who belong to their community are targetted. It is they who make the average muslim cringe with shame and guilt. India belongs to the graceful Indian muslims like Abdul Kalaam and the Khans of the film industry.
pear
mumbai, India
Dec 19, 2008 12:00 AM
4
Arul,
the likes of you deserve to be ignored completely, as they would be.

Anwar,
You have to somehow try to balance out things. No matter what, how unrelated and however bizzare, you have to copulsively seek or create a mirror image to deny stark reality by presenting some mirror.

Please, even for sake of show do not be like Antulay. You do greatest disservice to your own community. There comes a time when the only course of action is looking to reality in face to see what is wrong in your approach and what could you do without expectations from the other side-only then change is possible.
Atul Chandra
mUMBAI, INDIA
Dec 19, 2008 12:00 AM
3
Arul,
the likes of you deserve to be ignored completely, as they would be.

Anwar,
You have to somehow try to balance out things. No matter what, how unrelated and however bizzare, you have to copulsively seek or create a mirror image to deny stark reality by presenting some mirror.

Please, even for sake of show do not be like Antulay. You do greatest disservice to your own community. There comes a time when the only course of action is looking to reality in face to see what is wrong in your approach and what could you do without expectations from the other side-only then change is possible.
Atul Chandra
mUMBAI, INDIA
Dec 19, 2008 12:00 AM
2
"But the point I want to make is that I do not believe that the terrorists such as these -- I do not believe that their project has anything to do with justice,"

Rushdie is right in saying that the blood-thirsty terrorists who attacked Mumbai were probably not really seeking justice either on Kashmir or Babri Masjid or Gujerat. However the birth of LeT, Al Qaeda etc was from most accounts spurred by immediate geopolitical issues. Religiosity and grandiose talk of establishing a caliphate and imposing sharia were probably incorporated later in order to aid recruitment and to bolster solidarity. The expansion of goals may also have been the result of some of their heady successes, e.g. defeating the Soviet Union in Afghanistan. Rushdie himself expounds passionately on Kashmir related grievances, but maintains that the grievances do not have anything to do with terrorism. He may be completely right or he may be just partially right. The difference between him and Arundhati may be academic.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Dec 19, 2008 12:00 AM
1
oh salman salman salman - how can you make a complete ass and fool of yourself for all eternity, just to ingratiate yourself to accommodate yourself to this new ugly indian national chauvinism; where oh where is your self-respect;

jesus christ!!! it has nothing to do with literature or being an intellectual: just having the basic common sense to see who is the bullier and the bully-ee and take a stand on that; and how DARE you criticize arundhati, you silly piece of styrofoam you; you don't even have one zillionth her insight or her moral integrity to see the big picture of the ugliness of fascism and to call it like it is. oh lord.

i am taking all 3 of your books from my bookshelf and taking them straight to the recycle bin you silly wuss you. and how can you make those ignorant remarks about palestine.

this ugly indian fascism will go away one day and will be written up as the ugly thing it is, like mussolini and franco and stalin - and then you will be read about as one of the writers who lost your backbone and sided with the fascists of the time, like the supporters of the Vichy regime. pah! disgusting! low low low!
Arul Francis
Clayton, California