Illustration by Sorit
opinion
The Hindu Rate Of Wrath
When the Mahatma's cowards erupt in fury, it hurts. It isn't terror.
terror probe: malegaon
In a terror side-story, a sadhvi and ex-servicemen are suspects
Smruti Koppikar
Is there such a thing as 'Hindu terrorism', as the arrest of Sadhvi Pragya Singh Thakur for the recent Malegaon blasts may tend to prove? Well, I guess I was asked to write this column because I am one of that rare breed of foreign correspondents—a lover of Hindus! A born Frenchman, Catholic-educated and non-Hindu, I do hope I'll be given some credit for my opinions, which are not the product of my parents' ideas, my education or my atavism, but garnered from 25 years of reporting in South Asia (for Le Journal de Geneve and Le Figaro).

In the early 1980s, when I started freelancing in south India, doing photo features on kalaripayattu, the Ayyappa festival, or the Ayyanars, I slowly realised that the genius of this country lies in its Hindu ethos, in the true spirituality behind Hinduism. The average Hindu you meet in a million villages possesses this simple, innate spirituality and accepts your diversity, whether you are Christian or Muslim, Jain or Arab, French or Chinese. It is this Hinduness that makes the Indian Christian different from, say, a French Christian, or the Indian Muslim unlike a Saudi Muslim. I also learnt that Hindus not only believed that the divine could manifest itself at different times, under different names, using different scriptures (not to mention the wonderful avatar concept, the perfect answer to 21st century religious strife) but that they had also given refuge to persecuted minorities from across the world—Syrian Christians, Parsis, Jews, Armenians, and today, Tibetans. In 3,500 years of existence, Hindus have never militarily invaded another country, never tried to impose their religion on others by force or induced conversions.

You cannot find anybody less fundamentalist than a Hindu in the world and it saddens me when I see the Indian and western press equating terrorist groups like SIMI, which blow up innocent civilians, with ordinary, angry Hindus who burn churches without killing anybody. We know also that most of these communal incidents often involve persons from the same groups—often Dalits and tribals—some of who have converted to Christianity and others not.

However reprehensible the destruction of Babri Masjid, no Muslim was killed in the process; compare this to the 'vengeance' bombings of 1993 in Bombay, which wiped out hundreds of innocents, mostly Hindus. Yet the Babri Masjid destruction is often described by journalists as the more horrible act of the two. We also remember how Sharad Pawar, when he was chief minister of Maharashtra in 1993, lied about a bomb that was supposed to have gone off in a Muslim locality of Bombay.

I have never been politically correct, but have always written what I have discovered while reporting. Let me then be straightforward about this so-called Hindu terror. Hindus, since the first Arab invasions, have been at the receiving end of terrorism, whether it was by Timur, who killed 1,00,000 Hindus in a single day in 1399, or by the Portuguese Inquisition which crucified Brahmins in Goa. Today, Hindus are still being targeted: there were one million Hindus in the Kashmir valley in 1900; only a few hundred remain, the rest having fled in terror. Blasts after blasts have killed hundreds of innocent Hindus all over India in the last four years. Hindus, the overwhelming majority community of this country, are being made fun of, are despised, are deprived of the most basic facilities for one of their most sacred pilgrimages in Amarnath while their government heavily sponsors the Haj. They see their brothers and sisters converted to Christianity through inducements and financial traps, see a harmless 84-year-old swami and a sadhvi brutally murdered. Their gods are blasphemed.

So sometimes, enough is enough. At some point, after years or even centuries of submitting like sheep to slaughter, Hindus—whom the Mahatma once gently called cowards—erupt in uncontrolled fury. And it hurts badly. It happened in Gujarat. It happened in Jammu, then in Kandhamal, Mangalore, and Malegaon. It may happen again elsewhere. What should be understood is that this is a spontaneous revolution on the ground, by ordinary Hindus, without any planning from the political leadership. Therefore, the BJP, instead of acting embarrassed, should not disown those who choose other means to let their anguished voices be heard.

There are about a billion Hindus, one in every six persons on this planet. They form one of the most successful, law-abiding and integrated communities in the world today. Can you call them terrorists?




(The writer is the editor-in-chief of the Paris-based La Revue de l'Inde.)
terror probe: malegaon
In a terror side-story, a sadhvi and ex-servicemen are suspects
Smruti Koppikar
Translate into:
 
Daily MailPublished
COLLAPSE COMMENTS :
HAVE YOUR SAY
Nov 01, 2008 12:00 AM
1
01/11/08

Exceedingly well balanced and factually correct article. Regarding the demolition of Babri Masjid, there is an earlier example in Poland. In the course of the first Russian occupation of Poland (1614-1915), the Russian built an Eastern Orthodox Christian Cathedral in the principal square in what had been the capital of the once independent Roman Catholic Christian country. After Poland gained independence in 1918, its people pulled down the cathedral. They did so because they felt the purpose for which the Russians had built it had not been religious but political. Arnold Toynbee, in reference to this incident, had this to say in his Azad Memorial Lecture in New Delhi 1960.

“ I do not greatly blame the Polish government for having pulled down the Russian church. On the other hand, I do greatly praise the Indian government for not having pulled down Aurangazeb’s mosques; I am thinking particularly of the two that overlooks the ghats at Benraes and of the one that crowns Krishna’s hills at Mathura. Aurangazeb’s pupose in building those three mosques was the same intentionally offensive political purpose that moved the Russians to build the Orthodox cathedral in the city centre at Warsaw. Those three mosques were intended to signify that an Islamic government was reigning supreme, even over Hindusim’s holiest of holy places”


Real Hindu
Los Angeles, United States
Nov 01, 2008 12:00 AM
2
"In 3,500 years of existence, Hindus have never militarily invaded another country, never tried to impose their religion on others by force or induced conversions."

The first part about hindus never invading other countries is not totally correct. While I will agree that to a very large extent, the locan religion and custom was left untouched.
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Nov 01, 2008 12:00 AM
3
"Therefore, the BJP, instead of acting embarrassed, should not disown those who choose other means to let their anguished voices be heard"

BJP should disown such behaviour. I totally disagree with the article and its tenor.

There are plenty of ways to make voices heard. Does anyone remember Jammu quite recently? The likes of Bajrang Dal should be stamped out.
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Nov 01, 2008 12:00 AM
4
01/10/08

"The likes of Bajrang Dal should be stamped out."

This is pure idiocy; who is going to save the Hindu majority from the evangelical onslaught of the Christians and naked aggression of Islam? The secular fanatics will allow the Hindus to die. They are already doing it for the Jewish Christians in the West.
Real Hindu
Los Angeles, United States
Nov 01, 2008 12:00 AM
5
01/10/08

"The first part about hindus never invading other countries is not totally correct."

Provide evidence and stop talking in air. The Jammu agitation, has it caused the driven out Pandits to go back to their original places? Say things which are in tune with the reality.
Real Hindu
Los Angeles, United States
Nov 01, 2008 12:00 AM
6
very faaltu article/opinion, no subject in it and completely onesided looks like he is favouring someone
raj
hyderabad, India
Nov 01, 2008 12:00 AM
7
after reading the article i felt as if a big heavy stone has been lifted off my chest.all the truth that was buried under the media's(headed by outlook itself),polititian's n pseudo secularist's sick n foul propoganda has come out.thank god there r people out there who r courageous enough to say the truth.hats off to Mr.Gautier,pls accept a humble thanks from an ordinary 'Hindu'.In todays times when my own people r spreading such ghastly lies about my religion it is a god send article of yours that makes people like me sigh a relief and with a tear of joy thank ur courage.Every letter of ur article is true n is a tight slap on the face of the real murderers n the worst of the kind - their protectors(pls refer to the group of 3 mentioned above).

I thank u with my hands folded.
praveen
tokyo, Japan
Nov 01, 2008 12:00 AM
8
"Provide evidence and stop talking in air. "

Both Raja Raja and his son Rajendra Chola conquered other countries. And SriLanka was repeatedly invaded by tamil kings-and the Lankan kings attacking present day Tamil Nadu.
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Nov 01, 2008 12:00 AM
9
FG:>>"There are about a billion Hindus, one in every six persons on this planet."

true? the size of the crypto-chr among hindus, in india, abroad, is quite crypto. One intersting aspect is that, when a kid or gr-kid in a hindu family, the elders in the family tend to behave more fanatically chr than the converted kids themselves. Fifty yrs back, chr schools gave only educ, no conv; now, they are mainly conv centres, conv-promoters. If hinduism should survive, secular non-chr schools should be preferred by all hindus for their kids, help improve their standards, in all possible ways.

>>"They form one of the most successful, law-abiding and integrated communities in the world today. Can you call them terrorists?"

Quite a few are successful, yes. Such are also law-abiding. But, the larger numbers who have made politics their profession seem to specialize in breaking law to capture attention, in all possiblecways.

Integrated? Certainly not. diversity, what was a blessing for hinduism, is slowly becoming its curse also: caste diff, crypto-chr, language diff, culture diff, colour diff, regional diff, etc., all ignored earlier, are getting to be more and more emphasized, mostly by divide-rule polits, for creating votebanks of many kinds. When all hindus come to realize the tricks being played on them by polits, hinduism and india will really rise as a world-force.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Nov 01, 2008 12:00 AM
10
I must thank Gautier for consistently standing up for Hindus though a foreigner by birth he has realized the virtue of it.

As a Hindu (aka Coward) we all a shameless creatures requiring a Woman Sainthood to fight our causes.

Even insects, Bacteria and Virus have some faint self-esteem left in their genes but Hindus have lost this particular trait long back.

I am not even sure whether Hindus deserve to exist anymore in this planet as Hindus!!!!
Ram
Kerela, India
Nov 01, 2008 12:00 AM
11
The Hindu Rate of Wrath --a artical wrote by Gautier is really joke. He is fully ignorant of Hindu psyche.
Hindu by nature is neutral of world affair. His ultimate aim is to acieve MOKSHA[ Libration from bondages oflife and death]
Those who make trouble in his path to achieve MOKSHA,they are his enemy and time to time he attack on them.Muslim are always threating to Hindu in differant way so some Hindu took part in Malegoan blast.How Hindu treated to Dalit is histroy only because Dalit are hiderance to path of Moksha.Hindu by nature are not aggresive only because they are not concern with worldly affair.So Mr. Gauwtier please study deeply Hindu psyche and they express your openion.
Ramesh Raghuvanshi
pune, India
Nov 02, 2008 12:00 AM
12
>> " Hindus who burn churches without killing anybody."

Gautier, who has been lying on behalf of the sangh for years, again turns a blind eye to the fact that several Christians were killed in Orissa, and homes as well as orphanages were set on fire. There are good Hindus and there are bad Hindus, as is true for all communities, but these simple facts are beyond the ken of hate propagandists like Gautier.

>> "However reprehensible the destruction of Babri Masjid, no Muslim was killed in the process; compare this to the 'vengeance' bombings of 1993 in Bombay, which wiped out hundreds of innocents, mostly Hindus."

This is a good example of Gautier's blatant lying. The "vengeance bombings" of the ganglord Dawood Ibrahim followed the riots unleashed by the Shiv Sena in which hundreds of Muslims were killed. Read Srikrishna Commission Report.

>> "Timur, who killed 1,00,000 Hindus in a single day in 1399".

Such figures are always exaggerated. Same number were reported killed in Ashoka's Kalinga battles.

Gautier needs to know that one of the pamphlets of Abhinav Bharat, which was implicated in Malegaon blast, says "the organisation calls for its members to seek revenge for the “killing of millions of Hindus over several centuries”. The Bajrang Dal is responsible for the deaths of hundreds in Gujarat, Bombay and Orissa. In a situation in which extremists of both sides are on a rampage and are learning new ways to kill large numbers of people, cheering on one side, and trying to curry favor with one side, are highly reprehensible activities bordering on the criminal. Gautier should identify himself as a hate propagandist rather than as a journalist or historian.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Nov 02, 2008 12:00 AM
13
what is happening here. OUTLOOK changing colouurs?.what mr gautier has said is 100% correct.

apparantly the so called sadhvi accused in the malegaon blasts has gone thro the narco tests and ATS found nothing. bot the secularfascists are blaming her skills in "meditatation"!!!. read a report in hindustan times. so the secularfascists i.e anti hindus ridicule meditation as a hindu mumbo jumbo and when they couldn't get anything out of sadhvi they blame her meditation skills!!. this really takes the cake.
namo4
London, United Kingdom
Nov 02, 2008 12:00 AM
14
Namo,

>> so called sadhvi accused in the malegaon blasts has gone thro the narco tests and ATS found nothing.

The narco tests and brain-mapping tests are not considered to be credible tests in any civilized country. With such tests, depending upon the test giver, all Muslims will come out guilty and all Hindus will come out innocent!
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Nov 02, 2008 12:00 AM
15
The chief clown Anwar patel speakth.. as per him narco test found sadhvi innocent because test taker was perhaps hindu.. Now ask this clown why was Sadhvi arrested in first place by again a hindu police officer..

this thug can;t accpet any result which goes agaisnt hsi prejudice.. face it mororn all they had against sadhvi was that her bike was used and we all know you mullah peace brothers use stolen vehicles for their sick exercise..

Rahul
Delhi, India
Nov 02, 2008 12:00 AM
16
Francois Gautier is hindu extermist as per likes of clown on thsi board anwar patel.. I know you have spoken the truth but this doesn;t serve the purpose of psec thugs and muslim morons
Rahul
Delhi, India
Nov 02, 2008 12:00 AM
17
Not just after reading this piece but I,all along felt that the blasts at Malegaon, the Samjhauta express,etc were the work of Hindu fundamentalists in response to the incessant attacks on Hindus.
While I do not justify terrorism by any one and against anyone, I do understand the mindset of the Bajrang Dal,etc - in just 1947, India was ripped asunder and our Independence celebrations were mixed with the anguish of the displaced millions, then you had the 80s full of terror in Punjab, and since the late 80s, tens of thousands of Hindus were thrown out of Kashmir, then you have the conversion issue, and naturally, the Hindus feel marginalized in a country where they are the overwhelming majority.
Can anyone give me an example of such a thing happening anywhere else on the planet?
The counter attacks were expected.
While each person's life is equally important, it is time the Muslim fundamentalists and the Christian missionaries saw light.
A point I disagree with the author is (quoted below);
However reprehensible the destruction of Babri Masjid, no Muslim was killed in the process; compare this to the 'vengeance' bombings of 1993 in Bombay, which wiped out hundreds of innocents, mostly Hindus.

Many innocent Muslims were killed too in pogroms all over the country and specifically in Surat and Mumbai.
Of course, Hindu, Christian, Muslim or of any other faith,, every life is equally precious.
Coming to the issue of Aurangzeb, no doubt he was an unqualified b.....d. I do know about the mosques he built close to Hindu temples (as a reader has pointed out) but doing that is certainly a disrespectful thing to do.
To put things in perspective, it is imperative that leaders from Hindus, Muslims and Christians come together and find answers across the table. It is not only the only right thing to do but also the only sensible thing to do.
Such provocations and counter provocations could, God forbid, plunge us into a civil war that will be bad for all of us.
Let us,for the sake of our country, equally dear to all of us, find solutions that lead to peace and prosperity for all.
Azeem Taqi
Nashville, United States
Nov 02, 2008 12:00 AM
18
true rahul...this 'coward'(err....though he is definetly not a hindu)clown anwar patel is typing rubbish....suggestion to u patel - join indian politics....u will b successful.
praveen
tokyo, Japan
Nov 02, 2008 12:00 AM
19
The Hindu rate of wrath is a well written article by an open minded individual. I, as a hindu mother of two well educated and forward moving children feels the need to understand Hinduism in its true essence. Yes a deep sense of insecurity is settling in our minds but i blame no christian or muslim outfits for it. we hindus have been targetted first by the invaders to rule and later by the politicians. first we were divided in the name of religion, then in the name of caste and when hindus saw through all this(They stopped reacting to incidents and thus a great fall in no: of riots), they are being divided in the name of region.when will all this end? the question seems futile. what kind of world are we leaving behind for our successive generations- is a question to be addressed. The threat to Hinduism is not from the out side world but the Hindus themselves will be responsible for their fate.
Rashmi Singh
new delhi, India
Nov 02, 2008 12:00 AM
20
Rashmi:>>"The threat to Hinduism is not from the out side world but the Hindus themselves will be responsible for their fate."

Right. The safety and progress of india lies in the hands of hindus only, if only they will forget caste, cult, lang, region differences, intermarry freely, allow devouts of all castes to learn mantrs and do poojas in temples or at home, see non-jihad moslems and non-conv chr as only hindus seeing god in names of allah and chirst respectively. Only such a national and trans-national unity among hindus and simlilar respectors of all relig, all over the world, can bring peace and progress globally in the new century.

The most important thing is to completely ignore and inactivate all the hidden enemies of hinduism like the paapian rajesh and jihadian hard-facts on these forums, constantly trying to
decry hinduism and revive, reinstate and perpetuate caste-hate feelings among them.

If the hindus still left in assam really unite and agree on only one truly-hindu candidate in each constituency and vote together, ignoring tribal or cultural differences, insist on not voting for ummaists pretending ulfa, churchinans pretending to be indians etc., they can ensure that crypto-chr do not climb to power to destroy india thro bangla infils. Govts committed to indic religions are essential in border states, to ensure that anti-nationals infiltrating are detected and deported promptly. If hindus refuse to get unified even in the space-age for humanity, even the Lord, who has saved its survival over ten millennia, may lose interest and let them go to dogs.

Those hindus, who devoutly believe that bhaarat maataa is an emblem of the divine mother, should really unite to place the wisdom, wealth and valour at the disposal of forces operating for Her fight for survival in human history. It is a pity that the truths that can be clearly seen by an honest christain frenchman journalist on hinduism, are systematically concealed by the psuedo-secular, greedy, mercinary, paid-piper,
counterlectual journalists of india, claiming to be hindus, all the time.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Nov 02, 2008 12:00 AM
21
Some people says Bal Thackeray had some affair with Sharmila Thackeray (wife of Raj Thackeray) and that is why Raj Thackeray left Shiv Sena >>Bhanumati

This could not have been true. Bal thakre is too old to indulge in such activities.
Vivek Chatterjee
Calcutta, India
Nov 02, 2008 12:00 AM
22
Seshadri,

>> ummaists pretending ulfa, churchinans pretending to be indians...

What a liar and smearer this dodo is?
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Nov 02, 2008 12:00 AM
23
A very well written piece. I Love my Muslim friends, but I have an anger inside because of so much of violence everywhere. Be it Kashmir, or Delhi or Ahmedabad or Zamia nagar or Godhra riots everywhere innocent people are at the receiving end.

To please the minorities, our politicians have driven our country to a dead end. Even after 60 years of independence, the minorities are only 'pleased' and never really taken care of. They also feel cheated, the way the Hindu majority feels neglected and 'taken for granted'.

This 'pleasing' of Minorities has not brought any result till date and will not in the future too.
The only result that we can see now because of this 'Pleasing' is that the majority feels neglected and left out.
Abhishek
New Delhi, India
Nov 02, 2008 12:00 AM
24
AP:>>"Seshadri, >> ummaists pretending ulfa, churchinans pretending to be indians..."
"What a liar and smearer this dodo is?"

'unmaadam maati iti ummaa': umma will only mother and nurture cultural madness, if allowed.

'kalim toshayati likhati ca iti catholikhah':
'catholic' religion only pleases the devil and prescribes its continuance, if allowed.

sanskrit reveals the realities.

Those whose first alliegence is to the state of vatican or to the arch-bishop of london or to the caliph in mecca cannot be validly dependable citizens of the sovereign democratic republic of india. They can only remain guest praticipants in the indian economy, like indians in saudi arabia. To become valid indian citizens, they should agree to see mother india with the same respect they give to their mother religion.
Dual loyalties in mind among citizens can create problems to the country.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Nov 02, 2008 12:00 AM
25
Seshadri,

>> sanskrit reveals the realities.

Not to habitual liars and smearers like you. Also not to crackpots.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Nov 03, 2008 12:00 AM
26
Can't wait to see this Anwar Patel's reaction if BJP comes back to power. Poor chap, nothing seems to be going his way lately. Too funny !
satyanshu
Madrid, Spain
Nov 03, 2008 12:00 AM
27
Anwar Patel wrote"

This is a good example of Gautier's blatant lying. The "vengeance bombings" of the ganglord Dawood Ibrahim followed the riots unleashed by the Shiv Sena in which hundreds of Muslims were killed. Read Srikrishna Commission Report.

from:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombay_Riots

The riots started as a result of communal tension prevailing in the city after the Babri Mosque demolition on 6 December 1992. It is commonly believed that the riots occurred in two phases. The first was mainly a Muslim backlash as a result of the Babri Masjid demolition in the week immediately succeeding 6 December 1992 by Hindu hard-line elements in the city of Ayodhya.

The second phase was a Hindu backlash occurring as a result of the killings of Hindu Mathadi Kamgar (Workers) by Muslims in Dongri (an area of South Mumbai). This phase occurred in January 1993 (most incidents reported between 6 January to 20 January).


Ajay
Troy, usa
Nov 03, 2008 12:00 AM
28
Was the editor asleep at the desk when Gautier's essay was accepted for publication? Or did the writer's white skin get him a free pass to spout this rubbish? One can understand the value to the Sangh Parivar of white cheerleaders like Gautier and Konrad Elst, but it does Outlook no credit to provide them with a platform for factually incorrect and intellectually asinine graffiti.
Satadru Sen
St. Louis, USA
Nov 03, 2008 12:00 AM
29
I fail to understand why you continuously propound truthful lies in your writings when you claim yourself A born Frenchman, Catholic-educated and non-Hindu which are diametrically opposite to what you are de facto today? What use a Catholic education when today's reality check is that you do not reflect any such values and further when you have abdicated your faith - like Sonia Gandhi - ages back.

Denying that you are a Hindu too when you are very much a part of the Sangh Parivar might have been termed as a betrayal in normal course but there is a method in the madness. All is fair in Love and War as Napoleon Bonaparte once said - so what do these untruthful lies matter isn't it?

But however when we are faced with the real truth of your true and factual identity, your entire writing attempt/essay boils down to the fact that here is a Hindu fundamentalist propounding the fanatical cause.
Radhakrishnan
Mumbai, India
Nov 03, 2008 12:00 AM
30
sen

pakistani,s comitted genocide against bengalis
hindus as well as muslims. black arabs comitted genocide in darfur.

if muslims have done all of this with the world watching this on tv, its most likely that muslim
invaders were horrible as well.

are you bengalis quite mad, shameless idiots.

after the enormous problems you have had with bangladesh you still remain pro muslim and anti hindu.

its no wonder that ratan tata moved the nano project from bengal to gujerat.

bengal should be kicked out of the union-
lalitmb
kalundborg, Denmark
Nov 03, 2008 12:00 AM
31
radhakrishnan

would writeing about the genocide in bangladesh
in 1971, or darfur now make one fundamentalist.

if so what kind of fundamentalist-

naturally a hindu fundamentalist.

i dont know what to make of you.
lalitmb
kalundborg, Denmark
Nov 03, 2008 12:00 AM
32
RK to FG:>>"why you continuously propound truthful lies in your writings?"

Why don't you change your name from radha-kr to magdalene-jesus, to be really truthful, yourself?.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Nov 03, 2008 12:00 AM
33
Lalit to Sen:>>"after the enormous problems you have had with bangladesh you still remain pro muslim and anti hindu."

I suspect, even the hindu-kids of west bengal, the 'sen's, 'basu's and 'gaurav's, seem to be studying only in saudi-funded madarsas, these days, bec of the free food given to kids there. Hence, perhaps, the hindu-hatred in their minds.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Nov 03, 2008 12:00 AM
34
Ajay:

reg your note on the correct sequence of bombay riots after babri-mosque demolition, followed by dawood bombings:

It is difficult to understand how the moslems can start vengeance riots in bombay, against the demolition of an unused mosque, built over a hindu temple, no moslems killed, provoked mainly bec mullayam singh attacked devout pilgrims circling ayodhya!

It seems to me, the asura-beeja moslem-minds cannot really distinguish betw matter and spirit, since their 'spirit' souls are completely enveloped by ego or ahamkaara, matter only, as as also mind and intellect, as per the Gita. No other reason to explain their propensity to life-killings, even of their own kind, just for extra land-grab for the wahaabi-umma. Animals, in human forms, I suppose. God save the world!
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Nov 03, 2008 12:00 AM
35
Seshadri,

>> the asura-beeja moslem-minds.

You are insulting the Gita again by using its terminology to spew your debased hatefulness.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Nov 03, 2008 12:00 AM
36
AP:>>"You are insulting the Gita again"

read the XVI chapter of the Gita, yourself.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Nov 03, 2008 12:00 AM
37
This is “Sonia Rajyam”. Anything and everything will be done to accuse the Hindus.
Mr. Gautier - you are a liberal / progressive European, so, you have an open mind to see the greatness of Hinduism and the Vedas.
Sonia Gandhi however is an extremely conservative Catholic European who MASQUERADES in India as a secularist. She got into the secular family of the late Panditji who accepted her as a Christian, but, Sonia in return could not accept Hinduism. She still kneels before the Pope and she has to deliver India to the Christian church.
So, Sonia’s agenda is to demonize Hindus as terrorists. Sad, but true - the Sadhvi has been framed. The Sadhvi passed the polygraph tests.

http://timesofindia.ind...articleshow/3660534.cms

Priya Madhavan
Rochester, United States
Nov 03, 2008 12:00 AM
38


"The Sadhvi passed the polygraph tests".

What you mean by this ? She is innocent ?
Are you a stupid

All killers should be hanged whether it is sadvi or Afzal.

What is Sonya Rajyam ?
This is India not america.
There is no sonya rajyam in india.
She is an elected MP of india.

Priya madavan,
sonia worshipping pope, muslims going to meca, hindus going to manasarovar.
we dont care as long as they are good citizens.


we hate the following

untouchability practised by takurs and bramins
muslims jihad
christians conversion.

Priya madavan you raise your voice against untoucabilites practised in India.
not against sonia worshipping pope.

if sonia is not wanted by indians she will be rejected like Parvathi of Andhra (Wife of late NTR).

you do not bother about it.








I AM WISE DALIT. RAJAPPAN@AOL.IN
ROORKEE, India
Nov 03, 2008 12:00 AM
39
Hinduism is like Ganga. It is mother of all religions of the world and accepts all its children.
It is true that India has been a highly populous country even during the ancient times because , even in ancient times people from all countries which includes Russia and all Arabian countries , came in search of India, and settled in India.
You can see that there is something called Indianess which is always eqauted with Hinduism common to all of the people of India. It is a definite amalgamation,a decent culture of celebration,festivals and peaceful people ,highly dedicated to a family life.
Even though you can see people in North India with Russian features(physical features), People with Arabic features, and in some parts of India even dance forms are purely Russian.
All are Hindus,if not Indians , with the same type of peculiar Indian type of thinking.
The greatness of Hindu religion,Hindu way of life and thier culture is that it can merge any thing,all diversive ones in to its own flow, like the mother Ganga.
No one should try to make it a predatory,slave religion like Christian religion or military religion like Islam.
Any organistation,which imitates these religions only weaken the Hinduism.
bowenpalle venuraja gopal rao.
warangal, india
Nov 03, 2008 12:00 AM
40
Seshadri,

>> read the XVI chapter of the Gita, yourself.

In Chapter 16 Lord Krishna describes you very well. He delineates the evil propensities and ill conduct which are unrighteous in nature and which determine the unrighteous and which are antagonistic to divinity. So please repent before it is too late.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Nov 03, 2008 12:00 AM
41
Hello BOWENPALLE VENURAJA GOPAL RAO.
WARANGAL INDIA

"Hinduism is like ganaga".

But when will this ganag flow through Andhra.

In your andhra, Police escort is required for the dalits to visit temples.

none of govt orders for banning untouchability are implemented in your andra until now.

News from Hindu.
If you require more proof, we can provide you.


http://www.hindu.com/20...es/2004101707110300.htm


In the village MAHABUBNAGAR,

Speaking to mediapersons here on Saturday, Justice Punnaiah, who was here a two-day visit, said the G.Os 105 and 128 had been issued in October 2001 but were not implemented anywhere in the State.

He said G.O. 105 states that a Sub-Inspector of police must tour villages that fall under his jurisdiction once a week and book cases against those practicing untouchability.

He should lead Dalits in the village into the village temple. G.O. 128 says mandal and police officers should hold a `civil rights day' at the mandal level once a month.

so much for the mother of all religions.

Also i can give you proof that upper castes are original Europeans not original indians. That is why you found russian similarity in india.


http://www.india-today..../20010730/science.shtml


http://genome.cshlp.org...content/full/13/10/2277


Indians were members of this research group. Otherwise you will say this is meadia manipulatoin.
I AM WISE DALIT. RAJAPPAN@AOL.IN
ROORKEE, India
Nov 03, 2008 12:00 AM
42
WDR:>>
Hindus in india are ensuring that all humans are allowed into temples, other than bombers; that dalits are NOT discriminated, thro police vigilance, freq checks. Your churchians, on the other hand, call all hindus pagans, despise them thro leaflets and induce them to convert to your church, so that you can change them heavily for burial space in your grave-yards. My chr friends in india, USA, tell me that they have to worry about funeral exp, soon after middle-age, earning or not, even insure for that! God knows which relig is more spiritual. The hindus who burn their dead bodies, get freq rebiths, evolve to reach the feet of their favourite deity for eternal bliss. You will bury yourself on death, wait for the judgement day that may never come!
Those who convert to your relig are really asking for trouble.


v.seshadri
chennai, india
Nov 03, 2008 12:00 AM
43

hellow sheshadri,

>> Hindus in india are ensuring

Not correct.

Also, do not be upset when facts are presented by Hon. Justice.

Periyar also faced discrimination when he visited varanasi.

We do not have religions.
We are followers of Periyar.

We believe in equality of all indian citizens.
we will not discriminate anyone.
I AM WISE DALIT. RAJAPPAN@AOL.IN
ROORKEE, India
Nov 03, 2008 12:00 AM
44
WDR:>>"We do not have religions.
We are followers of Periyar."

Right. religion means hrillajjaa, heartfelt modesty towards a higher power. You do not recognize any. But you are followers of periar.
EVR is periyavar, great one, for you. You do deepa-aaraadhana before his statue only. May God bless you thro him. His name was also 'ramaswamy' only. God responds to all forms of worship, in faith, in any name or form.

v.seshadri
chennai, india
Nov 03, 2008 12:00 AM
45

All problems of India is because of religions.

Problems of India for 5000 years
-because of religion.

Untouchability in India
-becuase of religion.

Partition of India
-becuase of religion.

Terrorsim in India
-because of religion

Riot in orissa
-because of religion.

When People of India elects, Communists,
ALL CITIZEN OF INDIA WILL BE EQUAL.
NOBODY WILL ASK ANYBODY WHAT IS HIS RELIGION.
WE WILL NOT TOLERATE ANY TERRORISM.
WE WILL NOT TOLERATE ANY DISCRIMINATION.
WE WILL NOT TOLERATE ANY RIOTS.
WE WILL NOT ALLOW RELIGIOUS PLACES FOR TRAINING TERRORISM/RIOTS.
NO REGIONAL LEADERS.

ONLY INDIANS AND INDIA WILL BE IN OUR SOUL.
I AM WISE DALIT. RAJAPPAN@AOL.IN
ROORKEE, India
Nov 03, 2008 12:00 AM
46
Casts are not imposed by some ancient method of the type of some GO number or by order.
That there is a genetic basis for caste has been proved and your cut and paste references though good to read , these researches were not the first ones nor the only ones.
Even our commonsense can tell us that persons belonging to other castes (an ST or SC for example) to become an expert goldsmith is either extremely difficult or nearly impossible.
Persons with long hands and who were brave enough to die fought the wars.They had long nose , as is the nature all creatures in the world ,including dogs,where physical exertion is very high and more amount of breath is required.
A similitary between all mankind do not prove that some fictitous ,imaginary race called Aryans invaded India.
Why Europians,even central Asian Russian, middle east Arabians all came to India, settled in India and emabraced Hindu method of life which only means, life style and belief ssytem of people beyond river Sindhu. Hindu word is not mentioned anwhere in Vedas or Upanishads or even compartively recent one Bagavad-Gita.
Untouchability not- mentioned anywhere.It was a term invented by British.
The practice was a Brahminical order, it was like any "ism", an ideology of Brahminism which was originally not a caste but a movement to drive intelligent,questioning,inquisitive minds among all humans to a separate class to benefit the soceity.
Read the theories of George Bentham and others "theories of Utility".
Hinduism is anyway is constantly reforming itself,contantly criticizes,rejuvinates iteself by its own votarirs.
It does not need Christian missinaries with account books and blasphemy.
bowenpalle venuraja gopal rao.
warangal, india
Nov 03, 2008 12:00 AM
47
faruki,

"The narco tests and brain-mapping tests are not considered to be credible tests in any civilized country"

you wouldn't say this if the so called sadhvi admits in the narco tests that she carried out the blasts. you and your secularfascist heroes like OUTLOOK will be jumping with joy.
namo4
London, United Kingdom
Nov 03, 2008 12:00 AM
48
wise dalit,

"Also i can give you proof that upper castes are original Europeans not original indians. That is why you found russian similarity in india"

even if we accept for the sake of argument the theorey of aryan invasion (which is completely discredited any way)the fact remains that the "invading" aryans never domolished the local cultures. if you look at the present hindu religion, it is the mixture of "aryan" & "dravidian" culture. aryans were nature worshipers, the five basic elements like vayu, prithvi, sun etc. while the dravidians were / are idol worshippers. hindus gods like shiva(pashupati), ganapati, kartikeya(murugan) parvati(mother goddesses) etc were dravidian gods.

if look at present way of hindu worship you would see that it is a mixture of aryan & dravidian cultures. you will find ganapati worshippped along with ram & krushna. the holy trinity of hinduism consists of two aryan gods, brahma & vishnu, third being shiva the dravidian god. in fact the hindus give more importance to the dravidian gods than the aryan gods.

i can give you tonnes of more info but this forum is not the place. all i can say is, the aryans actually accepted the local gods/deities as their own gods, rather than destroying them.

saying this, the caste system is a blot on hindus. it was developed for the smooth functioning of the society. but it was never meant to be by birth(even in the Gita krushna stresses this). unfortunatelly, the so called upper castes, especially the brahmins turned it to be by birth. rest is history. offcourse no explanation of the caste system will wipe out the pain inflicted by the so called upper castes on the dalits. but things are changing. RSS/VHP is training lot of dalits to be priests, especially in TN and bihar. lets hope so it works.
namo4
London, United Kingdom
Nov 03, 2008 12:00 AM
49
"There are about a billion Hindus, one in every six persons on this planet. They form one of the most successful, law-abiding and integrated communities in the world today. Can you call them terrorists? "

I don't know whether Hindus will be called terrorists or not.But one thing I garuntee you that Hindus are fast turning anti-Muslims and anti Congress.I don't see any realisation on the part of either Muslims or the so called Secular Politicians .

I don't know whether Sadvi is guilty or not but Hindus enmasse consider her as victim of the Congress's appeasement Policy.

Anti Terror Squad is interrogating Sadvi for the last one month .IB has joined too.They have jointly interrogated serving Military Officers too but have failed to get any proof against any one .Agencies are also investigating whether the RDX was pilfered from Armed Forces or not .Nothing has sutfaced yet .

Meanwhile BJP and Siv Sena both have joined hands.They appointed topnotch Lawyers to defend Sadvi .Her remands ends today and Agencies are going to ask for remand which they will get as per the Law.They will take her for Narco Analysis Tests.Agencies are banking on these tests as till now they could not pin her .

If she comes clean in Narco Tests too then where will the Congress stand ?? Muslims will say under Hindus' pressure the Congress sabotaged the case and Hindus will say that they knew congress is anti-Hindus . Vice-versa if reverse happens.

Has the Congress been led into dung hill by the over zealous Congress Govt in Maharashtra to garner Muslim votes ?? Let us await.

Till now situation atleast looks bleak for the Congress and Agencies.

a k ghai
mumbai, India
Nov 03, 2008 12:00 AM
50
Dear Mr.Francois Gautier,
My congragulations to you for a beautiful piece of work. I found your comments (albeit politically incorrect, though!!) a very correct reading of this behemoth called Indian culture where you cannot really tease apart the "Hindu religion" from "Indian culture". Also as a disillusioned BJP supporter I find your advice to them very apt, but unfortunately they do not have leaders (any more!!) who have the political courage or the intellectual integrity to accept your advice.
Also I am surprised that you are not an "Indian" by birth & upbringing, because this is the first time that I have to concede that a "foreigner" has such a great grasp of an event/s in Inida.
Sajith Dass
Bangalore, India
Nov 03, 2008 12:00 AM
51
It is a sweeping statement that Hindus have been victims of foreign invasions though 3500 years history. How does he classify Hindu Aryan brutalising of the local population then. They are not as innocent as portrayed. Massacres perpetrated by "Hindu" mobs are conveniently labelled as 'anger reaction'. Can Muslim youth also not have the pleasure of similar anger and frustration reaction. A massacre of above 900 Muslims in Bombay in 1993 is glossed over but the counter blasts (unforgivable) killing around 250 Hindus are highlighted. Unfortunate but totally one-sided opinion. You clap with two hands.
Naseem Faruqui
Noida, India
Nov 03, 2008 12:00 AM
52
naseem faruki

muslims have a bad habit of manupilateing facts

there were two riots in bombay.

the first was engineered by dawood ibrahim-a heroe for muslims- as reprisal for destruction of the babri masjid. muslims have destroyed
hundreds of temples, so there was no cause to act in the way they did.

the second attack was by hindus- and obviously the police being hindu sided with the rioters.

However i simply disbelieve the numbers of muslims killed and the number of hindus killed.

secondly muslims should remember that india is a hindu majority country, and the entire govt machinery is hindu. muslims are very macho, and they are willing to take to violence at any occasion. after friday prayers they can be made
to do anything stupid, with loud cries of allah o akbar.

liveing in the west i can see that muslims make enormous demands on eg danish societies, and
contribute little themselves.

Hindus in India are tired of hearing your greviances, and your demands.

It needs to be said, that you have to take a more pragmatic attitude if you live in nonmuslim countries. Most of us regard you as an unwelcome burden. Thats the truth- but most Hindus being averse to controversey and conflict do not say so.
lalitmb
kalundborg, Denmark
Nov 03, 2008 12:00 AM
53

>> offcourse no explanation of the caste system will wipe out the pain inflicted by the so called upper castes on the dalits.

Nothing is changing NAMO.
In TamilNadu, Andra, Bihar, UP, Haryana, Karnataka It is still going on unchallenged.

IF YOU AT LOOK HISTORY OF INDIA ALL PROBLEMS ARE BECAUSE OF RELIGIONS.

As somebody had said all religions are bloodthirsty.

These religions needs the blood of human beings to survive.

do you need these religions which will not allow you to survive in this world.

All these religions makes you mad.
It makes you kill others.
It makes you rape women.
It makes even the educated to speak stupid things.


Do you need these religions. If you have a religion keep in your home.
don"t bring it out in the streets.

Think about it. don"t blindly support any religion.
I AM WISE DALIT. RAJAPPAN@AOL.IN
ROORKEE, India
Nov 03, 2008 12:00 AM
54
naseem faruki

just look at the genocide comitted by pakistani,s against bengali muslims and hindus in 1971.

it was a blood bath, with tens of thousands
killed and 10 million driven away to seek refuge in india. look at whats happening in your brother country pakistan-daily killings, torture and worse.

you muslims have no defence for your actions, but try and divert the issue by placeing the blame on others .

muslims have a dreadful reputation in the west, and hindus dont. the westerners have no reasons to be biased . there are facts and experience for the way they think differently about us.
lalitmb
kalundborg, Denmark
Nov 03, 2008 12:00 AM
55
Dear Francois Gautier,

This article doesn’t do anything better. Infact what it does is further instigate the people and more so the till now docile Hindus. You should read the comments on the article – it stinks of hatred.

For whatever your credentials are, you should’ve been more responsible and refrained from writing/publishing this.

I don't consider one religion over the other neither do I believe that revenge by killing or hurting sentiments is the solution!

Gopal (Bangalore)
Gopal
Bangalore, India
Nov 03, 2008 12:00 AM
56
"Unfortunate but totally one-sided opinion. You clap with two hands."

after probably 1 million articles in OUTLOOK ridiculing hinduism, blaming hindus for all the ills of muslims in india and some times in UK as well, distorting facts about muslim butchery of hindus etc., ONE article on the side of hindus and you get a heart attack!!!.

just imagine how the hindus on this forum must be feeling.
namo4
London, United Kingdom
Nov 03, 2008 12:00 AM
57
gopal

i am all for sending you as the apostle of peace to afghanistan.

lalitmb
kalundborg, Denmark
Nov 03, 2008 12:00 AM
58

LALITMB-KALUDBORG-DENMARK

gopal just now called me to inform you he is ready to go to afganistan. you please arrange his ticket.

also he said from your kalundi in denamrk, you have to visit our assam, very peaceful place. you can enjoy the breeze cooled by the bay of bengal. also lot of greeneries. tea esates lot of funs.

we hope you will not disappoint us by rejecting our humble request.

I AM WISE DALIT. RAJAPPAN@AOL.IN
ROORKEE, India
Nov 03, 2008 12:00 AM
59
WISE DALIT,

this is how your "god hating communists" in kerala supporting muslim terrorists. what do you say about this?

"“The CPM has gone for an open relationship with radical organisations like the NDF and PDP just to defeat the league. It’s a shame that CPM is ready to go hand-in-glove with any terrorist organisation just to get votes,” General Secretary, IUML, P K Kunjalikutty says."


http://ibnlive.in.com/n...ame-begins/77347-3.html


namo4
London, United Kingdom
Nov 03, 2008 12:00 AM
60
Namo4-London-UK

We are not against GOD. Worship your God. But we cannot accept violence against another community if your God says so in your book.

We are against religions. Those killer blood thirsty religions. Do we need those religions which cannot support by itself ?

I saw a ray of kindness in your posting related to untouchability. That is the reason I am explainging this.

Look at history. How many how many people died for these religions. How many suffered . how many will suffer ? How many more will die. Who knows ?

We need untouchability towards these religions. Christian religion how many sects. Muslim religions how many sects . Hindu religion how many sects. Tell me any good thing done by these religions.

Regarding NDF:
Hope the following news will lead you from darkness to light.

Also, there is an intense fight between NDF and CPIM.


http://www.expressbuzz....nName=X7s7i|xOZ5Y=&SEO=


"Chief Minister V.S.Achuthanandan has said.

“If it poses a danger to the unity and secularism of the country, religious teaching, whether by Hindus, Muslims or Christians, is harmful," the Chief Minister said at the post-Cabinet briefing here on Wednesday.


“Some Muslim leaders do not have the sense of even the parents of those killed in Kashmir," the Chief Minister said.

The mother of Mohammed Fayas and father of Abdul Raheem had said that they had nothing to do with the dead bodies.

The Chief Minister alluded to the Hindu sanyasin, Pragya Singh Thakur, who had been implicated in the Malegaon bomb blast in Maharashtra to drive home the point that terrorism was not limited to a particular community. To stress his point further, Achuthanandan equated NDF with Bajrang Dal and RSS.

When he was reminded about CPM state secretary Pinarayi Vijayan’s observation that the NDF was acting as the recruiting agent for foreign terrorist organisations, he said: "Vijayan might have said that to bring certain information he has to the notice of the Kerala Police." The Chief Minister but did not seem to differ much with his state secretary. "The NDF, like the Bajrang Dal and the RSS, was already under suspicion for their activities. This organisation was said to be behind a number of murders. They are also known to recruit teenagers in the age group of 16 and 18," Achuthanandan said."
I AM WISE DALIT. RAJAPPAN@AOL.IN
ROORKEE, India
Nov 04, 2008 12:00 AM
61

Wonderful article by Gauthier. His erudite and well written columns have appeared in rediff, but this is the first time I've seen them here. One remembers his impassioned call for a "holocaust museum" to mark the genocide against Indic peoples and religions committed by Islamic invaders. His admonition of Indians for being obsessed with cricket to the exclusion of other sports was well taken. His eloquent defense of the Gujaratis against the ludicrous charge of fascism and genocide was particularly timely and needed. His advocacy, in the Outlook article, of the avatar concept as a solution for the conflict of religions is very wise.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Nov 04, 2008 12:00 AM
62

Lalit is quite correct about Pakistanis, and by extension, of Bangladeshis. Let us remember that these people are not Martians or Jovians. They are essentially Indians who hate, fear and reject India. Even if one argues that it is mainly the military in Pakistan which fuels the anti-India feeling, the question remains, why any anti-India and anti-Hindu feeling at all? And why has it persisted year after year after year? By now, the people have to own some responsiblity, in both Pakistan and Bangladesh.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Nov 04, 2008 12:00 AM
63
SUBVERSE: Aping each other
The TV coverage of the arrest of Sadhvi Pragya Thakur brought about a sense of deja vu. Where had we seen this before - a preacher being charged with a terrorist act?Then it struck home. Mullah Omar, Maulana Masood Azhar, the Lal Masjid mullahs... and nearer home, MuftiAbu Bashir, the imam of Mumbai’s Musafirkhana mosque, the maulvi arrested after the Ahmedabad blasts.

One always suspected that the RSS was envious of Muslims. The RSS envied the hold it thought Islam had on its followers, which made Muslims ready to die for Islam. While it hasn’t managed to inspire Hindus to die for their religion, the RSS has, after a campaign lasting almost a quarter century, managed to convert its version of Hinduism into a carbon copy of Islam, but that version which the world is afraid of - militant Islam. The RSS’s version of Hinduism is Hindutva. It hasn’t only changed Hinduism as it is known and practised across India into some unrecognisable intolerant, violent force; it has also transformed the image of one of the most popular Hindu gods, in whose name it has effected this change.

The campaign began in 1985. Lord Ram, who has always been eulogised as Maryada Purushottam, gentle and patient, not given much to anger unlike his younger brother Lakshman, was depicted by the RSS in its campaign against Babri masjid, with his bow drawn. We’ve grown up amid pictures of Ram, Sita, Lakshman and Hanuman, always together, with Ram and Lakshman holding their bows by their side, exuding serenity and compassion. The Ayodhya campaign changed this image into Ram the warrior. While Ram’s enemy was Ravan, a ruler of another kingdom, the RSS made their fellow citizens the enemy. In the preparations for his final battle with Ravan, Ram made many allies: Sugriva, Vibheeshan and others. But the RSS couldn’t get anyone ideologically different from it to ally openly with its campaign, though it managed to get the Congress to give it help at crucial times.

The RSS borrowed from Sikh terminology to call its followers in this campaign kar sevaks, and in doing so, distorted this term too. Kar sevaks volunteer to work in gurdwaras. But the RSS’s kar sevaks didn’t just carry bricks for a temple -one that was to be built after demolishing a masjid. They also shouted abusive slogans that terrified anyone opposing their cause and brandished trishuls onthe streets.

http://timesofindia.ind...articleshow/3670047.cms
Subroto Chatterjee1
Kolkatta, India
Nov 04, 2008 12:00 AM
64
another Moron Naseem Farooqui now props up aryan invasition theory.> I guess these idiots have been sleeping in last decade.. here is the fact genome project gene mapping has made it clear that there never was any migration of human population towards India it has always been from india.. So your dubious philology based theory of aryan invasion has been exposed as a bonafide lie........

And now what theory will you prop up in order to prove benevolent hindus as aggressor..

Accept it fact is hindus never attacked any other country.

Mullahs in pakistan teach their kids that Muhd Bin Qasim attacked to save buddhist population from hindu king dahr's.. They do not tell the truth.. truth is three Ghazzi (islamic warriors were sent by governor of Iraq at the same time
(1) Muhd Bin Qasim was sent to sindh to open the gates of India for islamic invasion
(2)Qutubaba bin Muslim went to mongonlia china .. the province today you know as muslim majority in china was conquered by him but he cud not go any further
(3) Third Was that barbar tribe islamic marauder Tariq Bin Ziyad who went to spain and after entering spian burnt his boat and said you have your enemey before you and vast see behind .

All of these marauders had just one goal to subjugate those countries and spread islam

Sword in one hand and quran in another..

Thankfully Spanish people drove them back once and for all but we indians could not do that..
Rahul
Delhi, India
Nov 04, 2008 12:00 AM
65
another Moron Naseem Farooqui now props up aryan invasition theory.> I guess these idiots have been sleeping in last decade.. here is the fact genome project gene mapping has made it clear that there never was any migration of human population towards India it has always been from india.. So your dubious philology based theory of aryan invasion has been exposed as a bonafide lie........

And now what theory will you prop up in order to prove benevolent hindus as aggressor..

Accept it fact is hindus never attacked any other country.

Mullahs in pakistan teach their kids that Muhd Bin Qasim attacked to save buddhist population from hindu king dahr's.. They do not tell the truth.. truth is three Ghazzi (islamic warriors were sent by governor of Iraq at the same time
(1) Muhd Bin Qasim was sent to sindh to open the gates of India for islamic invasion
(2)Qutubaba bin Muslim went to mongonlia china .. the province today you know as muslim majority in china was conquered by him but he cud not go any further
(3) Third Was that barbar tribe islamic marauder Tariq Bin Ziyad who went to spain and after entering spian burnt his boat and said you have your enemey before you and vast see behind .

All of these marauders had just one goal to subjugate those countries and spread islam

Sword in one hand and quran in another..

Thankfully Spanish people drove them back once and for all but we indians could not do that..

Rahul
Delhi, India
Nov 04, 2008 12:00 AM
66
another Moron Naseem Farooqui now props up aryan invasition theory.> I guess these idiots have been sleeping in last decade.. here is the fact genome project gene mapping has made it clear that there never was any migration of human population towards India it has always been from india.. So your dubious philology based theory of aryan invasion has been exposed as a bonafide lie........

And now what theory will you prop up in order to prove benevolent hindus as aggressor..

Accept it fact is hindus never attacked any other country.

Mullahs in pakistan teach their kids that Muhd Bin Qasim attacked to save buddhist population from hindu king dahr's.. They do not tell the truth.. truth is three Ghazzi (islamic warriors were sent by governor of Iraq at the same time
(1) Muhd Bin Qasim was sent to sindh to open the gates of India for islamic invasion
(2)Qutubaba bin Muslim went to mongonlia china .. the province today you know as muslim majority in china was conquered by him but he cud not go any further
(3) Third Was that barbar tribe islamic marauder Tariq Bin Ziyad who went to spain and after entering spian burnt his boat and said you have your enemey before you and vast see behind .

All of these marauders had just one goal to subjugate those countries and spread islam

Sword in one hand and quran in another..

Thankfully Spanish people drove them back once and for all but we indians could not do that..

Rahul
Delhi, India
Nov 04, 2008 12:00 AM
67
another Moron Naseem Farooqui now props up aryan invasition theory.> I guess these idiots have been sleeping in last decade.. here is the fact genome project gene mapping has made it clear that there never was any migration of human population towards India it has always been from india.. So your dubious philology based theory of aryan invasion has been exposed as a bonafide lie........

And now what theory will you prop up in order to prove benevolent hindus as aggressor..

Accept it fact is hindus never attacked any other country.

Mullahs in pakistan teach their kids that Muhd Bin Qasim attacked to save buddhist population from hindu king dahr's.. They do not tell the truth.. truth is three Ghazzi (islamic warriors were sent by governor of Iraq at the same time
(1) Muhd Bin Qasim was sent to sindh to open the gates of India for islamic invasion
(2)Qutubaba bin Muslim went to mongonlia china .. the province today you know as muslim majority in china was conquered by him but he cud not go any further
(3) Third Was that barbar tribe islamic marauder Tariq Bin Ziyad who went to spain and after entering spian burnt his boat and said you have your enemey before you and vast see behind .

All of these marauders had just one goal to subjugate those countries and spread islam

Sword in one hand and quran in another..

Thankfully Spanish people drove them back once and for all but we indians could not do that..

Rahul
Delhi, India
Nov 04, 2008 12:00 AM
68
My message to those who visist Ajmer to that chishti';s mazaar.. he was the original islamic scholar who invited Muhd Gauri to attack india.. do not go to this islamic scholar's mazaar .. they are all the same.. see it for yourslef a pakistan idiot turmpeting Chishti;s move of inviting Gauri's invasion on India..

See for yourself the true face of this socalled
saint

www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_j-diFGqSgR>
it's in five parts watch this whoile series yeh ghazzi

hear from 5:38 onwards..
he is talking about Moinuddin Chishti

Rahul
Delhi, India
Nov 04, 2008 12:00 AM
69
watch yeh ghazzi on youtube.com

see what these islamic invaders ghazi does.. here he is talking about moinuddin chishti..

See what nonsense he talks about and how tolerant hindus were that allowed this chishti to preach his bull$hit.....This Chishti invited Muhd
Gauri
outlookindia.com/rantsmag.asp?fodname=200
81110&fname=BMalegaon%20Terror%20(F)&sid=2&pn=1#
Rahul
Delhi, India
Nov 04, 2008 12:00 AM
70
watch yeh ghazzi on youtube.com

see what these islamic invaders ghazi does.. here he is talking about moinuddin chishti..

See what nonsense he talks about and how tolerant hindus were that allowed this chishti to preach his bull$hit.....This Chishti invited Muhd
Gauri
outlookindia.com/rantsmag.asp?fodname=200
81110&fname=BMalegaon%20Terror%20(F)&sid=2&pn=1#R>
Bloody why wud Prithvi Raj have hjatred for muslims when there was nomuslim around.. why wud he allow Ghauri to let go alive when he hated so much..

This is weird mullah llgic first attack some country and then accuse the local people for hating you just because local people fought against their attack
Rahul
Delhi, India
Nov 04, 2008 12:00 AM
71
watch yeh ghazzi on youtube.com

see what these islamic invaders ghazi does.. here he is talking about moinuddin chishti..

See what nonsense he talks about and how tolerant hindus were that allowed this chishti to preach his bull$hit.....This Chishti invited Muhd
Gauri
outlookindia.com/rantsmag.asp?fodname=200
81110&fname=BMalegaon%20Terror%20(F)&sid=2&pn=1#R>
Bloody why wud Prithvi Raj have hjatred for muslims when there was nomuslim around.. why wud he allow Ghauri to let go alive when he hated so much..

This is weird mullah llgic first attack some country and then accuse the local people for hating you just because local people fought against their attack
Rahul
Delhi, India
Nov 04, 2008 12:00 AM
72
watch yeh ghazzi on youtube.com

see what these islamic invaders ghazi does.. here he is talking about moinuddin chishti..

See what nonsense he talks about and how tolerant hindus were that allowed this chishti to preach his bull$hit.....This Chishti invited Muhd
Gauri
outlookindia.com/rantsmag.asp?fodname=200
81110&fname=BMalegaon%20Terror%20(F)&sid=2&pn=1#R>
Bloody why wud Prithvi Raj have hjatred for muslims when there was nomuslim around.. why wud he allow Ghauri to let go alive when he hated so much..

This is weird mullah llgic first attack some country and then accuse the local people for hating you just because local people fought against their attack
Rahul
Delhi, India
Nov 04, 2008 12:00 AM
73
watch yeh ghazzi on youtube.com

see what these islamic invaders ghazi does.. here he is talking about moinuddin chishti..

See what nonsense he talks about and how tolerant hindus were that allowed this chishti to preach his bull$hit.....This Chishti invited Muhd
Gauri
outlookindia.com/rantsmag.asp?fodname=200
81110&fname=BMalegaon%20Terror%20(F)&sid=2&pn=1#R>
Bloody why wud Prithvi Raj have hjatred for muslims when there was nomuslim around.. why wud he allow Ghauri to let go alive when he hated so much..

This is weird mullah llgic first attack some country and then accuse the local people for hating you just because local people fought against their attack
Rahul
Delhi, India
Nov 04, 2008 12:00 AM
74
Namo,

>>>> "The narco tests and brain-mapping tests are not considered to be credible tests in any civilized country"
>> you wouldn't say this if the so called sadhvi admits in the narco tests that she carried out the blasts.

Narco tests and brainmapping have no credibility. If they want to convict her, they will have to do it on evidence which is not only credible but "beyond reasonable doubt".
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Nov 04, 2008 12:00 AM
75
Good one, Rahul. Gauthier's( and many other's) remarking on Hindus never invading other countries is quite understandable. There is evidence of a Hindu incursion into Malaysia and Indonesia; however, the scale of this intrusion is nowhere comparable to European and Islamic invasions all over the world, including into those selfsame areas a few centuries later.

Additionally, there is no memory, let alone resentment, of Indian 'invasions' into Southeast Asia. It happened in the very distant past, and it was not massive. Even less impact was made on the pre-existing culture. Indian cultural influence enriched, not supplanted in any way, the older ways. And to cap it all, in a way, while Pakistanis and other Moslems glorify the violence and conquest of their ideological forebearers, no Indian worth his salt would seek to glorify the Indian 'conquests', such as they were, in Malaysia and Indonesia. So yes, there is a big difference.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Nov 04, 2008 12:00 AM
76
Lalit,

>> there were two riots in bombay. the first was engineered by dawood ibrahim-a heroe for muslims- as reprisal for destruction of the babri masjid.

You are such a liar! The massacre of Muslims in Bombay took place in December 1992 and Janusry 1993. Dawood Ibrahim's bomb blasts occurred on March 12, 1993.

>> attack was by hindus- and obviously the police being hindu sided with the rioters.

Only a moronic sanghi could say that without any shame!
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Nov 04, 2008 12:00 AM
77
Narco tests and brainmapping have no credibility. If they want to convict her, they will have to do it on evidence which is not only credible but "beyond reasonable doubt".
ANWAR PATEL
DALLAS TX UNITED STATES

Moron speakth again...... Shoudl we move her trial to pakistan I guess that will satisfy morons like you....
Fact is so far they have got nothign on her......just wait and wathc how she walks out free.......

Rahul
Delhi, India
Nov 04, 2008 12:00 AM
78
varun shekhar.

faruki would have us believe that most indian muslims are moderate and liberal.the only fanatics are us hindus.

my point is that we should look at pakistani,s.
indian muslims and pakistani muslims are 2 peas of a pod.

indian muslims are no better or worse then their pakistani family.

now if one tells me that pakistani,s are moderate and liberals,then i would say he is a fool.

like wise i would say the same for indian muslims. they are neither moderate or liberal.
'they are pakistani,s in essence and i frankly dont care much for pakistani,s.

not to know this is accepting uncertainty and disaster.

large parts of india where muslims live eg azimgarh, jamianagar, malegaon are mini pakistans. they produce fanatics,bigots and terrorists.this has been proven by facts.
lalitmb
kalundborg, Denmark
Nov 04, 2008 12:00 AM
79
Google human miogration project of Genomics and see how aryan invasion theory lies in diustbin in light of revelation.. mind you this is scientific evdience not some philological mumbo jumbo on which aryan invasion theory was based..
Rahul
Delhi, India
Nov 04, 2008 12:00 AM
80
Whatever that Sadhvi is guilty of innocent but if the govt's cavalier attitude against islamic jihad contionues then days are not so far when we have real hindu terorrist group blowing bombs in mosques.. We hindus may be tolerant and even called cowards by mahatma but there is limit to which we can take.. so beware mullah brigade the day safety volve of our tolerence blows hell will have to pay.........
Rahul
Delhi, India
Nov 04, 2008 12:00 AM
81
Fact is each and every riot is started by muslims. Before advent of Shiv Sena riots by muslims andsubsequent butchering was common in mumbai.. IN Godhara Gujarata they used to openly kill hindus so much so that classic Gandhi comment in Young India came after one such killing in Godhara ... the one where he says Hindus are cowards and muslims are bullies...

Story wiht muslim is they will keep spewing crap till the point yuou snap and when you do snap they will paint town saying you are arrogant....

1905 Muslim league came and that was fine but when their nonsense became little much to take then Hindu mahasabha came in 1937 and till this day mullahs point to Hindu Mahasabha for parititon of india.. They have some twisted sense of cause and effect in which the event which comes later becomes cause and the one which happened earlier becomes effect.. yes it;s upside down mullah logic for you
Rahul
Delhi, India
Nov 04, 2008 12:00 AM
82
Fact is each and every riot is started by muslims. Before advent of Shiv Sena riots by muslims andsubsequent butchering was common in mumbai.. IN Godhara Gujarata they used to openly kill hindus so much so that classic Gandhi comment in Young India came after one such killing in Godhara ... the one where he says Hindus are cowards and muslims are bullies...

Story wiht muslim is they will keep spewing crap till the point yuou snap and when you do snap they will paint town saying you are arrogant....

1905 Muslim league came and that was fine but when their nonsense became little much to take then Hindu mahasabha came in 1937 and till this day mullahs point to Hindu Mahasabha for parititon of india.. They have some twisted sense of cause and effect in which the event which comes later becomes cause and the one which happened earlier becomes effect.. yes it;s upside down mullah logic for you
Rahul
Delhi, India
Nov 04, 2008 12:00 AM
83
Francois Gautier misreads facts, Hinduism, Christianity, Islam and finally misrepresents his professional journalism itself. True, Hindus are one of the most harmonious people on earth. First, in the present Indian context a discussion on "Hindu terrorism" some Hindu extremists, not the whole Hindu society. Second, a wholesale acceptance of India as a Hindu nation is intellectual bankruptcy. The subaltern groups like Adivasis and some Dalits neither ever were nor in the present are Hindus. The foot soldiers of BJP and its stooges,including Francois Gautier, claim the contrary. Third, it is true that "Islamic terrorists" have killed innocent lives by planting bombs in civilian locations. Fourth, it also seems true that "Hindu terrorists" abstain from killing human beings, since they respect them. They only destroy mosques, churches and other "structures." Reports say some 50 persons, officially 35, were killed. Were they not human beings? Did those extremists not incinerate Rajni Manjhi and raped a nun? Fifth, Francois claims such barbaric acts involve Dalits and Tribals. Right, but who is the brain behind? Is really conversion the issue? Objective journalist should investigate it. Sixth, the Christian zealots and Muslim terrorists should accept their historical mistakes of the past. But do the "Hindu extremists" have the right to avenge past violence with present violence, that too by using Dalits and tribals? The bottom line is: Is Francisco Gautier a hardcore stooge of the BJP?
Francis Minj
Berkeley, United States
Nov 04, 2008 12:00 AM
84
Anwar Patel,


What shit you imbibed ...what shit you talk ..what shit you spread....You are truly a shit of Allah (shit be upon him )...there is no hope for you and your allah(peace be upon him)...
Rajendra Chaudhary
Indore, India
Nov 04, 2008 12:00 AM
85
Rahul,

Seems your brainwashing by the RSS shakha that you attend is complete! All that you can do from now on is to regurgitate their lies and hate speech!
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Nov 04, 2008 12:00 AM
86
faruki

i got info from mail by ajay, troy ,usa 3 november 2008.

reference wikepedia about bombay riots.

muslims start a fight, and then get beaten, and start complaining. its the same story all over the world.

you guys will never learn.

same happened with arabs and israel.

arabs started the war, got beaten black and blue, and now have been whineing for years.i
understand you support hamas. join them, and
dont come back,

we hindus need to learn from israel. you need to get a sound thrashing to make you behave.if israelis were in india today, they would have bombed azamgarh.they would also have built a wall round it.

americans are also doing it in iraq and afghanistan. do you also send complaints to bush.
lalitmb
kalundborg, Denmark
Nov 04, 2008 12:00 AM
87
Lalit,

>> faruki would have us believe that most indian muslims are moderate and liberal.the only fanatics are us hindus.

Never said that! Your tedious and mindless posts never seem to stop. Aren't you ashamed to fill this space with your dumb drivel?
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Nov 04, 2008 12:00 AM
88
Francis Binj,

>> Is Francisco Gautier a hardcore stooge of the BJP?

He is.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Nov 04, 2008 12:00 AM
89
faruki

this blog is full of your crap.

always implying that basically true islam is a fine religion, most muslims are fine, accepted in the west, and that we should ban the sangh.

just forget it. its time you quit this forum.
you have a few demented bongo supporters. take them with you to a peaceful benign muslim country.
lalitmb
kalundborg, Denmark
Nov 04, 2008 12:00 AM
90
Reality of that socalled saint Chishti.. See how he worked against PrithvI raj Chauhan while he was a guest in his kingdom. Muslims are like this only. Saint or commoner there is no differen whatsoever.

Second Battle of Tarain (1192 CE) The very next year, Ghori repaid Prithviraj's gesture. In 1192 AD he again invaded India with a huge army of 1,20, 000 armed men. Both the armies faced each other again at Tarain. Prithviraj had the support of his feudal chiefs but these were only small princes. No powerful ruler extended his support to him even at this critical juncture. Thus, for all practical purposes he had to face the enemy single handed. Again, the two armies met at Tarain. The Hindus followed a traditional practice of battling only between sunrise and sunset. This practise was based upon great epics and ethics in their civilized society. The Ramayana and the Mahabharata support this practise. Ghori as advised by Moinuddin Chishti attacked the surprised Rajput army before daybreak and thus emerged victorious. At the point when annihilation became certain, Sanyogita committed Jauhar {suicide} for self-immolation rather than face the prospect of personal dishonour at the hands of a barbaric invader. Prithviraj was taken in chains to Ghor in present-day Afghanistan.
Rahul
Delhi, India
Nov 04, 2008 12:00 AM
91
he worked against PrithvI raj Chauhan while he was a guest in his kingdom. Muslims are like this only. Saint or commoner there is no differen whatsoever.

Second Battle of Tarain (1192 CE) The very next year, Ghori repaid Prithviraj's gesture. In 1192 AD he again invaded India with a huge army of 1,20, 000 armed men. Both the armies faced each other again at Tarain. Prithviraj had the support of his feudal chiefs but these were only small princes. No powerful ruler extended his support to him even at this critical juncture. Thus, for all practical purposes he had to face the enemy single handed. Again, the two armies met at Tarain. The Hindus followed a traditional practice of battling only between sunrise and sunset. This practise was based upon great epics and ethics in their civilized society. The Ramayana and the Mahabharata support this practise. Ghori as advised by Moinuddin Chishti attacked the surprised Rajput army before daybreak and thus emerged victorious. At the point when annihilation became certain, Sanyogita committed Jauhar {suicide} for self-immolation rather than face the prospect of personal dishonour at the hands of a barbaric invader. Prithviraj was taken in chains to Ghor in present-day Afghanistan.
Rahul
Delhi, India
Nov 04, 2008 12:00 AM
92
he worked against PrithvI raj Chauhan while he was a guest in his kingdom. Muslims are like this only. Saint or commoner there is no differen whatsoever.

Second Battle of Tarain (1192 CE) The very next year, Ghori repaid Prithviraj's gesture. In 1192 AD he again invaded India with a huge army of 1,20, 000 armed men. Both the armies faced each other again at Tarain. Prithviraj had the support of his feudal chiefs but these were only small princes. No powerful ruler extended his support to him even at this critical juncture. Thus, for all practical purposes he had to face the enemy single handed. Again, the two armies met at Tarain. The Hindus followed a traditional practice of battling only between sunrise and sunset. This practise was based upon great epics and ethics in their civilized society. The Ramayana and the Mahabharata support this practise. Ghori as advised by Moinuddin Chishti attacked the surprised Rajput army before daybreak and thus emerged victorious. At the point when annihilation became certain, Sanyogita committed Jauhar {suicide} for self-immolation rather than face the prospect of personal dishonour at the hands of a barbaric invader. Prithviraj was taken in chains to Ghor in present-day Afghanistan.
Rahul
Delhi, India
Nov 04, 2008 12:00 AM
93
faruki

"i never said that."

then do you accept that muslims are not moderate or liberal.

if we hindus had been like you, muslims would have been driven out of the country, just as the pandits in kashmir.

You need to accept both .
lalitmb
kalundborg, Denmark
Nov 04, 2008 12:00 AM
94
Lalit,

>> i got info from mail by ajay.

Are you unable to do any research yourself? You have been tiresome enough for one day. Go to bed!
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Nov 04, 2008 12:00 AM
95
Lalit,

>> then do you accept that muslims are not moderate or liberal.

Do you understand any English at all, you ignorant jackass?
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Nov 04, 2008 12:00 AM
96
faruki

i think you should move over to pakistan, and
see the reality on the ground.you will also see how indian muslims are.the mirror image of pakistani,s

see islam in action. see how muslims behave and act. take another trip to afghanistan, bangladesh.at least azamgarh.

you are a humbug. afraid to see reality.
lalitmb
kalundborg, Denmark
Nov 04, 2008 12:00 AM
97
Who is this idiot and, more importantly, why has he been allowed to be published in a magazine like Outlook? Not only does he seem like justifying terrorism, he's either mixed up his facts or conveniently ignored them.
"...angry Hindus who burn churches without killing anybody" - these are the same people who burnt a missionary alive in Orissa, and who raped, tortured & burnt scores including young children in Gujarat.
"...destruction of Babri Masjid, no Muslim was killed in the process" - probably only because there was none in the vicinity - plenty were killed in the riots that followed.
"...They see their brothers and sisters converted to Christianity through inducements and financial traps...." - could the Hindu concept of caste and the humiliation and deprivation meted out to 'lower castes' for centuries together have anything to do with this ?
"...What should be understood is that this is a spontaneous revolution on the ground, by ordinary Hindus, without any planning from the political leadership... " - i don't think you realise how naive and ignorant you seem - Pullitzer for fiction, 2008 ?
Terrorism is terrorism, no matter how you or Osama bin Laden would like to present it and all terrorists should be dealt with severely. And quoting Gandhi only makes your justification of violence even more ridiculous.
K
Delhi, India
Nov 04, 2008 12:00 AM
98
faruki

you fraud. you cant dispute the authenticity of the wikepedia report.

so you come up with your stupid remark about
doing my own research.

idiot.

what earthly good are you for cair. you are a disaster, unfit for any intelligent job.

just make tea in the islamic centre.
lalitmb
kalundborg, Denmark
Nov 04, 2008 12:00 AM
99
Lalit,

>> you will also see how indian muslims are.

I know their problems, but your crazed obsession with Muslims is a serious disease. You are as sick as this nut Francois Gautier! Get help!
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Nov 04, 2008 12:00 AM
100
very incisive and yet simply eloquent. This is what a true journalist is and what honest journalism is and very courageous too because I fear that Mr. Francois Gautier will be hated by all those who cannot speak truth - specially a good number of Indian journalists who are used to project either biased versions or their master's voices. We have to also acknowledge that Outlook magazine may provoke readers (to sell more) but it also remains committed to represent all views (though more of "minority pleasing" ones than others).
escoss
delhi, India
Nov 04, 2008 12:00 AM
101
"In 3,500 years of existence, Hindus have never militarily invaded another country, never tried to impose their religion on others by force or induced conversions." Francois Gautier

Absolutely! And yet, the Secular fanatics and the Theocratic Fascists divert attention from the history of Islamic presence in India-that killed approximately 80 million Hindus, directly or indirectly. Hindus have the responsibility and an obligation to UNITE and form a State of their own as otherwise they will be extinct, within a few decades, saurrounded as they are by the sea of theocratic facism, within and without.
hindu
Varanasi, India
Nov 04, 2008 12:00 AM
102
Dear FRANCOIS:

You have quoted the massacre of 100,000 Hindus in 1399 but how about the Sindh Massacres of 712? Hindu Kush genocides agregating several millions, over few centuries? Genocides in Ayodhya, Dwaraka, Somanathapuri and the NalandaMassacre of 1199? I have read that the total number of Hindus killed exceeded 80 million. Please comment on the destruction of the Buddhist civilization in the Northern India, Iran, Afganistan and Pakistan and Central Asia? The Bangla Desh genocides?


hindu
Varanasi, India
Nov 04, 2008 12:00 AM
103
Dear Francois:

Please comment on the following:

"Although Europeans are constantly castigated for having imposed their insidious and decadent values, culture, language on the Third World, no one cares to point out that Islam colonized lands that were the homes of advanced and ancient civilizations, and that in doing so, Islamic colonialism trampled under foot and permanently destroyed many cultures"-IBN WARRAQ, in "Why I am Not a Muslim?" (p 198)
hindu
Varanasi, India
Nov 04, 2008 12:00 AM
104
Hindu/Bodepudi,

>>>> "In 3,500 years of existence, Hindus have never militarily invaded another country, never tried to impose their religion on others by force or induced conversions." Francois Gautier
>> Absolutely!

Absolutely wrong! I can give you a lengthy reply, but it is easier to ask you to read Ganesan's post.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Nov 04, 2008 12:00 AM
105
Stopperbhai,

>> I am told that the mentors of all the world Muslims in Osama...

Just because you worship bajrangi terrorists, you think everyone must be like you!
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Nov 04, 2008 12:00 AM
106
>> Both Raja Raja and his son Rajendra Chola conquered other countries. And SriLanka was repeatedly invaded by tamil kings-and the Lankan kings attacking present day Tamil Nadu.

Actually, instead of being proud of the fact that Hindus never attacked any other country, we should be ashamed of it.

It's not as if Hindu kings didn't fight each other. Our history is littered with kings fighting each other. So, it was not a desire for peace that prevented us from attacking other countries (with stray exceptions like pointed out by Ganesan), but, probably due to the following reasons
1. Few Hindu kings became big/powerful enough to establish an empire over the entire Indian subcontinent. Going beyond it was not possible. Wonder how many had the vision for it.
2. Through out history, we were a relatively rich country. There was little motivation to look beyond our shores in the South, or beyond the Himalayas in the North to expand.

The sad part is that we were never able to unite when attacked by foreigners. We continued to fight each other, and betray each other, allowing outsiders to lord us for centuries.
Al Bundy
San Francisco, United States
Nov 04, 2008 12:00 AM
107
"In 3,500 years of existence, Hindus have never militarily invaded another country, never tried to impose their religion on others by force or induced conversions." Francois Gautier
If they have not imposed their faith on any other community, the bajrangi goons are doing it now in Orissa and Karnataka and elsewhere. Your assumption that there were no Indian incursions made into other countries is premature and false. The Cholas, who ruled the south India, repeatedly attacked Sri Lanka. Samudra Gupta sought to weild his clout over Malaysia, Cambodia etc. In 1971 war, India partitioned Pakistan, creating Bangladesh. How can you overlook such a recent example. You are such a sick bajrangi asshole with a distorted perception of history. If Indian kings did not made any major international forays in the past, it was only due to the fact that they were always internecinely fighting amongst themselves. But, it does not mean that the rulers in ancient India did not have any ambition of ruling the entire planet.
Vivek Chatterjee
Calcutta, India
Nov 04, 2008 12:00 AM
108
This Gautier fellow sounds like a coke-head Hippie from the beaches of Goa who is now trying to pass himself off as an Expert on Indian history. He is playing to the Gallery ( " the COWARDly Hindus " ) and they are just lapping it up !!
Gaurav
Santa Fe, United States
Nov 04, 2008 12:00 AM
109
Vivek Chatterjee, Francois is a passionate Indophile, and someone who is very fond of India's people; who the hell are you to call him "scum"? His articles in rediff.com over the years have been superb. Regardless of the reasons Hindus didn't make many aggressive excursions outside of the bounds of India, the fact is they didn't. And sensible Indians today are not glorifying even those relatively minor forays.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Nov 04, 2008 12:00 AM
110
Genetic angle
A. Virumandi of Usilampatti in Madurai district is one among the remnants of a tribe of coastal migrants who crossed Africa through the Indian subcontinent to enter Australia 50,000 years ago.

http://www.hindu.com/20...es/2007072858821000.htm


This is interesting stuff . If Virumandi is called Dravdian , then he also is a migrant from Africa.

Linguistic angle
Latvian language and Sanskrit.


http://www.lexiline.com/lexiline/lexi51.htm


Sanskrit is still spoken and written in India, by very few people, but in Lithiania and Sanskrit it is not spoken and written, but has words similar in meaning.

The migration of Virumandis ancestors and the similarities of words in meaning to Lativian and Lithuanian languages may be analysed in the following manner.

India's Sapta ( Seven rivers) and the fertile agricultural plains have been reported in ancient literature and in recent history when Babar invaded India , he called it Sona ki Chidiya. The Indo Gangetic plain is considered to be the most fertile plain in the world and thats the reason the population in that region has always benn high, right from ancient times.

What must have happened is that agriculture must have been the most productive activity in ancient times. That is the reason it has the word culture attached to it.

The arrival of diverse type of people right from Virumandis ancestors ( preferred TN as climate akin to Southern Africa) and many others from all over to India , would have created chaos in the management of agriculture as land owning, tilling , selling the food produce and cleaning the fields and storage places. So this must have resulted in functional caste hierarchy according to divison of labor. Further this must have not worked well when the produce had to be allocated to persona. It must have worked well for some time and then vested interests must have cropped up and created a whole lot of problems and the system must have got screwed up and the functional caste hierarchy must have collapsed into real caste hierarchy. In this, some
groups must have migrated Northwards and due to climate must have become fairer ( no fair and lovely cream required). This is exactly the reason why many Sanskrit words match in meaning with Lativian words. If the invaders so called Aryans had come from outside, then Indian languages would have only Sanskrit words and not languages having Sanskrit imbibed in them. e.g ,Malayalam is the closest to Sanskrit. If the Aryan Invaders had come from outside then , why did not Sanskrit stay in more prominence from their state of origin. The question is India alone has Sanskrit in spoken and written terms ( not in large numbers) but sufficient enough to make it available on the internet and much more than Lativia and Lithuania.

Another point to make is the genetic study, how much can the mitochondrial DNA mutate over such long period of time? Does it mutate or not?

Wise Dalit has quoted India Today reference where Risley has been cited. Risley classified fair skin as uppercastes. If genetic study has been done based on Risley's classification then it is bunkum. I have lived in TN and there are many priests ( Brahmins) who are very dark skinned. So Risley's classification will fail here.

gajanan
Sydney, Australia
Nov 04, 2008 12:00 AM
111
Straight from Mel Brook movie "History of the World"

Army General : Highness , the Prussians are fighting the Bavarians. The Russians , some minors. The Poles with Saxons,,,, and the general goes on.

Napolean fumes: If they are all fighting among themselves , whom will we fight with?

This is exactly what happened to India. The Rajas were fighting among themsleves and they had no time to fight others or invade others and even defend themselves when invaded ( to go beyond Mel Brooks script, real facts )
gajanan
Sydney, Australia
Nov 04, 2008 12:00 AM
112
"In 3,500 years of existence, Hindus have never militarily invaded another country .."

No need. Hindus subjugated their own - Dalits.

This guy is RSS pracharak and assumed french name.
Rajesh
Phoenix, United States
Nov 04, 2008 12:00 AM
113
>>>>The sad part is that we were never able to unite when attacked by foreigners. We continued to fight each other, and betray each other, allowing outsiders to lord us for centuries.
AL BUNDY
SAN FRANCISCO UNITED STATES
You are NOT correct.
We must fairly analyse why we have lost wars to foreign invaders.
When Baber attacked India, all the Rajaput kingdoms fighting with each other , were united which surprised and shocked Baber.
His army was shivering and might be pissing on legs seeing the brave,legendary Rajput forces, with all the five major kingdoms united to fight the invader.
But war is an art. You have to fight with "time" as well.
Baber used small "pharangi", (cannons)which could be moved easily because he also tied them to bullock carts on each side. He moved them so fast that the cannons appeared as if from nowhere on either flanks of Rajaputs ,while the pharangi of Rajaputs were so heavy that the to change this strange tactics of this Baber was impossible, so by noon they started losing and completely lost by night fall.
You can not find fault with Rajaputs either,because the internecine fauds notwithstanding, they unted and bravely defended Indian borders from Huns,from Turks,from various nomadic tribes from Russian planes for almost 200 years.
In the last Panipat,the Marathas united (more than five kingdoms)and defended India , from the invader,Nadir Shah. At this point of time Nadir shah was also shocked to see the unity of Hindu Kings, their financial arrangements and their fighting spirit. He had raised a special wing only to kill,the renegades in his own army. His expectation that Muslim kings would support his war did not happen.
Marathas lost the war because the war was unexpected,depended more on astrology for timing of the war,and there was joker among the pack of Marata sardars(generals). That one joker did not listen to the commands to stay on, so that fast moving phirangi of Nadir Shah could be surpirsed.
He created a hole, a gap, in the Marata defenses, so this third Kurukshetra was lost to Nadir Shah,who killed citizens in Delhi for 15 days, robbed,raped women, and carried them to Afganistan as hostages.
British did not come as invaders and even against this Rani LaxmiBhai united a few kings and put up a fight.
This too much propagated, Hindu disunity is sheer nonsense, propagated by imperialist forces and Church.
If not for Hindu's unity, India would not have existed and to be sure "India" as such would cease to exist once, Hinduism is gone.
bowenpalle venuraja gopal rao.
warangal, india
Nov 04, 2008 12:00 AM
114
He is a Frenchman. No assumed name. See his web site.


http://www.francoisgautier.com


There is Konrad Elst from Holland an Indologist who writes on the Internet. There are many more David Frawley in USA. Dr Frank Morales in USA. Michel Danino in India. The difference is that they have not changed their religion and they write their opinion. They have stuck to their faith , except David Frawley.

Mark Tully the British Journalist settled in India is impartial and writes well. Sometimes he takes sides. So you cannot accuse him, if he sometimes takes sides.

William D is there is India parttime. He also writes well. In his Last Mughal , he took pains to translate rare Urdu script. with the help of a tranalator to show the role of missionaries in 1857 mutiny. It was a remarkable piece of work.
gajanan
Sydney, Australia
Nov 04, 2008 12:00 AM
115
>>>>The subaltern groups like Adivasis and some ?Dalits neither ever were nor in the present are Hindus. The foot soldiers of BJP and its stooges,including Francois Gautier, claim the contrary
You are completely wrong. I do not know if you are an Indian, and if you are , then you must be an ignorant person.
Advasis and Harijans(or dalits) are all Hindus.
They worship Lord Shiva and Parvati in various forms like Ellamma,Mallamma,Durga and others.

Your hatred for Francois can be understood but the Orissa vilence was not just because of convesions of one section of tribals who are dead against another section of tribals.
The tribal feuds were the important reason for such a large sacle murders and mayhem.
The hand of missionary,phadrees in converting tribals and murdering a swami and another monk in the ashram can not be denied.
There is nothing so great about these phadrees.
They write and distribute phamplets with full blasphemy of Hindu Gods,full of lies and most sinful .
Look at what they are doing throught India.
Their concentration earlier was on North East states of India. Now the govt. tightened the enty system in these states (you need a line permit, even for Indians,to show who you visit,where you stay and what for you are going ) their concentration is now shifted to Orissa and Karnataka after their wave of conversions in Andhra.
bowenpalle venuraja gopal rao.
warangal, india
Nov 04, 2008 12:00 AM
116
04/10/08

"No need. Hindus subjugated their own - Dalits."

I have told Rajesh many times that untouchability is a social problem and is being removed through laws and social awareness. Violence in Islanm is theological and can not be removed unless you delete the verses. You should be blind if you can not see the difference.
Real Hindu
Los Angeles, United States
Nov 04, 2008 12:00 AM
117
I totally agree with your article. It is the soldout sould of the Congress and its allies that have protected and promoted terrorism in our country. They are the real culprits and they are the ones who should be persecuted.
Meenakshi
delhi, India
Nov 04, 2008 12:00 AM
118
Gautier is right on - here's what the peaceful folks from the Islam did in the last couple of days...

[11/3/2008 (Buhriz, Iraq) - Four children are among six members of a family taken out in a brutal al-Qaeda bomb attack.

11/3/2008 (Baidoa, Somalia) - A women's rights activist is shot twice in the head and chest in front of her business by Islamic hardliners.

11/3/2008 (Narathiwat, Thailand) - A 66-year-old tea shop owner is shot to death by Islamic separatists.

11/2/2008 (Baidoa, Somalia) - Fundamentalists
kill five Somalis with a roadside blast.

11/2/2008 (Kirkuk, Iraq) - Two children are taken out by Jihadi roadside bombers.

11/2/2008 (Narathiwat, Thailand) - A Buddhist family is attacked by Muslim terrorists, who shoot the mother to death.]

Every week these peaceful mongrels kill in the dozens...
lookout bug me not
mumbai, India
Nov 04, 2008 12:00 AM
119
rajesh

i presume you have had problems being a dalit.

you do not have to add to them by being stupid.

look at usa and barack obama.

thats what dalits should aspire to be. not a freaking,stupid idiot like you.
lalitmb
kalundborg, Denmark
Nov 04, 2008 12:00 AM
120
04/10/08

"says "the organisation calls for its members to seek revenge for the “killing of millions of Hindus over several centuries”. The Bajrang Dal is responsible for the deaths of hundreds in Gujarat, Bombay and Orissa."

The Hindus population in Pakistan and B'desh was around 18% in 1950; today it is around 2% and the balance has been vaporised by the muslims. Jihad is the monopoly of muslims and others can also practise genocide, as the muslims are doing it Darfur. BD is the saviour of the Hindu majority; the West without such an organisation, is counting its days for the ushering in for Eurabia and Londonistan. Anwar Patel is also waiting for the event; till then patiently arguing, without an end.
Real Hindu
Los Angeles, United States
Nov 04, 2008 12:00 AM
121
FRANCOIS GAUTIER
The Hindu Rate Of Wrath

Je suis totalement d'accord avec votre expose. Tres bien fait !
Pinaki S Ray
Adelaide, Australia
Nov 04, 2008 12:00 AM
122
gaurav

i have to conclude after reading the views of other bongos also, that you are neither hindus or
indians. and frankly i could not give a damn.

your miserable basket case of a state is of no benefit to india. join up with bangladesh, and
change your religion, to that of the tribe of islam.

you are both fit for each other-ugly twins.
lalitmb
kalundborg, Denmark
Nov 04, 2008 12:00 AM
123
Oh My God !
Azad
Bangalore, India
Nov 04, 2008 12:00 AM
124
faruki

you are the symbol of islamic fanatacism and bigotry. in my eyes you are an ugly loathsome creature, who tries without sucess to take on the airs of a liberal.

i despise islam, and your kind of muslims.

i feel compelled to reject your lies,and manupilations of the truth. i have seen after
you have been nailed,you slink away like a dog,with its tail between your legs.

as a dogmatic muslim you are persone non grata
here. move to pakistan, we have enough of your kind in india.
lalitmb
kalundborg, Denmark
Nov 04, 2008 12:00 AM
125
RAJESH
PHOENIX UNITED STATES

"... No need. Hindus subjugated their own - Dalits...."

It seems that you were born in the "cowbelt" as a "Dalit" and are still carrying your inferiority complex ever since then.

If so, it is high time you get over it since you are no more living there.

For the record, I was born a Hindu in Calcutta - there were no Dalits in Bengal.

Remember that Hinduism extends beyond the cowbelt.
Pinaki S Ray
Adelaide, Australia
Nov 04, 2008 12:00 AM
126
Hi
Quite an articulate article..However i beg to differ.
For instance Mr.Francois has no idea that in the riots following the Babri Masjid demolition, hundreds of Muslims were killed.
Also the idea that Hinduism is accomodative is an oversimplification.
you just need to look at the numbers of Muslims employed with the government for this.
Also while telling us that 1 in 6 billions in world is a Hindu, he himself stands testimony to
the fact that despite being ruled by Muslim rulers
nobody was converted to Islam at the point of sword which is a fantastic myth
tauseef
bhubaneswar, india
Nov 04, 2008 12:00 AM
127
04/10/08

"The Cholas, who ruled the south India, repeatedly attacked Sri Lanka. Samudra Gupta sought to weild his clout over Malaysia, Cambodia etc."

The Cholas interefered in Shrilanka only at the invitation of one of warring ruling factions. The Cholas also undertook maritime invasions in SE Asia to eradicate the muslim jihadi pirates and the muslims are following the glorious tradition in the North African and Indonesian coasts even now. I think you have read the doctored history books of Marxist historians.
Real Hindu
Los Angeles, United States
Nov 04, 2008 12:00 AM
128
Very good.
Mahesh Kayappurath
Cochin, India
Nov 04, 2008 12:00 AM
129
"The Cholas interefered in Shrilanka only at the invitation of one of warring ruling factions"

I will agree that that happened a few times. And I will also state that Sri Lankan rulers were not pure as wind driven snow. Many times they played politics in the present day Tamil Nadu-pitting one group against other.

But still the fact remains that hindu rulers did attack Srilanka unprovoked many times.
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Nov 04, 2008 12:00 AM
130
RH: You are right. The concept of 'bhaarata- varsha', in mahaabhaarat days, extended from gaandhaara [khandahaar, in afghan] to kaamboja [cambodia] in the east, from kandi [skandee, in ceylon from where skanda started fight with soora and bro] to kailaasa in the himaaalaya. Any king could declare himself emperor, only if the whole of bhaarata-varsha, south-asian water-shed south of himalaya, [mecong = mehagangaa, most names in indonsia are sans only] was subject to him, as tribute-paying subnations. Therefore, feudal conquests among princes of the same indic culture do not qualify as genocidal invasions, like those of jislamists on iraq, iran, afghan, partially on india also. When indic princes fought, only soldiers fought, common people not affected, women, kids, elders went inside large temple compounds, respected by both conflicting parties.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Nov 04, 2008 12:00 AM
131
04/10/08

"But still the fact remains that hindu rulers did attack Srilanka unprovoked many times."

Unless you produce some evidence, I am not ready to accept the theory. Your remarks seem to equate Islamic invasion with these infrequet conquests. You are misssing out the following:

> Hindu coquests were never for land grabbing or for plundering the wealth or for conversion of the other people to Hindu faith. Islamic conquests are precisely for these.
> Hindu conquests were always retalliatory; they were no offensive.
> Hindus did not kill the surrendered soldiers, as Mohammed did.
> Hindus did not torture the prisoners for not elling the whereabouts of the hidden wealth
> Hindus did not rape women captured in war; Lord Ram, as per Quaaran, should have raped Mandodari and married her, after he killed Ravana.
> Hindus did not sell the childred and women captured in the ear as slaves in the slave market; musims are doing it even today in Darfur.

Islam is distilled barbarism and do not compare it with Hinduism.

Real Hindu
Los Angeles, United States
Nov 04, 2008 12:00 AM
132
My final post about hindu rulers invading other countries. I do NOT consider it a bad thing it all. Imperialism today has become a bad word but it was considered a great thing during those days.
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Nov 04, 2008 12:00 AM
133
From a majority of Hindus, Mr. Gautier, a big MERCI!!!
Raveesh Varma
Grand Rapids, MI, USA
Nov 04, 2008 12:00 AM
134
Islamic prophet Muhammad had inspired several hundred years of war even while he was not anymore.. his promise that "any army which conquers constatinopole will go to heaven has charged many islamic invaders to attack constantinopole."

mororn like Farooqui think otherwise but just look at what was tyhe crime of
(1) persia
(2) Sindh
(3) Monoglia
(4) Spain

everywhere islamic army was sent with sword in one hand and quran in another.....

Even today there hardly exists any muslim country where you can preach any religion other that islam on public TV.. Heck even malaysia doesn;t allow that despite presence of 40% non-muslims....

Equality secualrism all these things muslims invoke when they don;t have numbers to force shariah down the throat of one and all..
Rahul
Delhi, India
Nov 04, 2008 12:00 AM
135
"Hindu Hegemony
Harimau Iyer October 27, 2008
Tags: Bali , Indonesia
Hindus in India have been beaten down for the last 1000 years or more. The situation for Hindus improved slightly after 1857 when the Mogul Empire was abolished and the British promised not to interfere in the religious affairs of Indians. The situation has actually worsened for Hindus since Independence.However, strident propaganda by leftists and their fellow-travelers and slanted history texts written by academics with political agendas have indoctrinated the average Indian that being Hindu is bad and demanding equal treatment alongside minorities is a criminal act.

This unhappy state of affairs is not perceived by Hindus who have never left the country. On the other hand, they are so conditioned by the propaganda that they meekly go along, sometimes out of a wrong sense of fair-mindedness.

It takes living in a secular democracy such as the US to realize what secularism means to the average US citizen and understand how it has been twisted out of shape for political reasons in India. Not that a country such as the US that has a holiday for Christmas and issues special stamps for Christmas can be said to be totally secular. But at least they are not shoving their religious observances down the throats of people who follow other religions and permit the free exercise of religions such as Hinduism, Buddhism and even that intolerant brutish Arabian cult called Islam."


http://www.chowk.com/ar...gemony-harimau-iyer.htm



No race in the World is so self defeating and submissive except the Hindus .See the way Hindus are being butchered in India by the Jehadies inspite of Hindus being brute Majority.A couple of Lacs Muslims in Kashmir Valley have calmly created the 63 Islamic Nation in the World.

Next Islamic Nation Assam ??



Khushi Ram
ambala cantt, India
Nov 04, 2008 12:00 AM
136
To equate Chola interfence in Srilanak at the inviation of one of the warring faction to the islamic invasion all over the world would be tantamount to equating IPKF operation of india in srilanak with American invasion around the world sas of today.. Mullah moorons know this very well but it takes intellectual honesty to accept the fact..

Face it morons the following countries had done nothign to islamist invaders to invite the most vile attackl ever known in hostory of mankind
(1) Persia: poor persians had to migrate to India where they found safe haven
(2) Sindh/India
(3) Mongolia
(4) Spain
(5) Constaninopole
(6) Egypt
(7) North africa in general

One after another these ba$tards went around with sword in one hand and quran in another...

The way in modern era first came british then missinaries starte pouring in islamist too used to bring in few sufis after their conquest..

Rahul
Delhi, India
Nov 04, 2008 12:00 AM
137
Theocratic Fascism

There wewre also two wars between Burma and Thailand, two Buddhist countries, but they were not theocratic and much less, fascist, unlike Muslim jihadi wars, These two are like water and oil. Only the medieval Crusaders came close to the jihadi fascists in savagery though they were short lived, mercifully
hindu
Varanasi, India
Nov 04, 2008 12:00 AM
138
Very true, Real Hindu. It's not just the fact that wars and battles took place, internecine or trans-national/trans-cultural. It's the nature of those conflicts. The ancient Indians did not impose their religion or language on anyone else, nor even their physical presence excpet for a relatively brief period in SE Asia( if at all). War per se is inhumane, but the Indians were perhaps the most civlised in this matter of all the ancient peoples. Massacres of the civilian populations and destruction of their cities was almost unheard of. Imposition of religion and language was non-existent. The battles themselves were chivalrously and fairly fought; prisoners were not killed, fleeing soldiers were not pursued, surrendering soldiers not killed. Ferocity and ruthlessness in warfare was brought into India by the Moslems, Portuguese and British.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Nov 04, 2008 12:00 AM
139
Just as there is the myth about hindus never invaded foreign countries, there is the myth about hindus never convery anyone. That is another staple from these people. I wonder what Adi Sankara did in his last 8 years of his life.

The difference which makes hindus great in this regard is not that they did not convert but that they used argument and logic to convert people. Unlike much of the conversions that happened due to Islam and christianity.

But to maintain hindus never converted anyone is a fallacy.
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Nov 04, 2008 12:00 AM
140
This is an interesting perspective on militant Hindutva. Despite being a BJP sympathizer, I don't quite agree with the author. Terrorism in any religion is terrorism. The only fact is that Hinduism has finally come of age and is prepared to fight other religious fundamentalists in the only language they understand - violence.
Ashwin
Jersey City, United States
Nov 04, 2008 12:00 AM
141
"Islam is distilled barbarism" Real Hindu

IBN WARRAQ (a former Pakistani Theocrat)has made a useful distinction between Islam of 1 the Koran (Prophet), 2 Hadith (Mullahs and theologians) and 3 Islamic civilization. Whatever accomplishments Muslims had accomplished as a people and as a civilization was despite 1 and 2. Indian Muslims inherited the Indic genes and it made a difference. Similarly, the influence of Greeks on earlier Islam was profound and Muslims borrowed freely. Not to speak of the Arabic numerical system borrowed 100% from India and their poetry, art and architecture which were all banned in toto by 1 and 2

hindu
Varanasi, India
Nov 04, 2008 12:00 AM
142
Ganesan it;s matter of scale.. you guys find one sample chola and churn thoeris about hindus attacking other countries and expect other people's to buy it.
I was told in class four you can draw as many lines ( meaning theories here) passing through single point .. For youo that is enough data to frame theory and for me it;s just an aberration exception of the rule .. I leave it to sane peopl to decide whether theory dervived from millions of points has better credibility or theories derived from single point.

Talking about conversion whihc hindus never did when we say that we mean we never took sword for that.
When a majority hindu population;s ruler Ashoka turned Buddhist there was no call for his dethroning.. when buddhist convinced hindus again peacefully there was no crying of wolf.. llikewise when shankaracharya converted them back again by argument there was no cry of wolf..

When these foreign invaders cin form of islamist came then game changed they were willing to do anything from sword to finicail inducement.. Go read the system of mansabdari and how it fourished.. Heck even the islamic thinker Alama Iqbal's father Devki Nadan sapru was coerced into accepting islam when he was found guiilty of somoe fraud he was offered to either serve punishment or become muslim and he chose later....

We are revolting the obvious sword wielding with quran in other hand.. we have not yet complained about other forms of coercion yet..

Much hailed Toipu Sultan used to go aroudn killing people on days of dipawali and there are still villages in karnataka mysore region whcih do not celebrate dipawali commemorating that dark period..... He was hell bent on convertinig even his own minister purnaiya and purnaiya was so sick and tired of tipu's anti hindu action that when british came he surrendeder easily saying " How can I fight against those who are saving our people form islamic barbarism"

so for you to even suggest any kind of moral equivalence in hindu and muslim behavious over years is lopsided to the core
Rahul
Delhi, India
Nov 04, 2008 12:00 AM
143
Mr Khushi Ram

What you are saying has a lot of truth ... the word "Hindu" as we have chosen to call ourselves itself is self-defeating and submissive in that it was given to us by Arabs and later westernised as Indian. So by definition every Indian must be a Hindu … in Arab countries even Pakistani/Bangladeshis are frequently addressed as Hindis.

I think we should address ourselves as Vedic or Vedanti and our faith Vedantism - the followers of the Sanatan Dharma, as Swami Dayanand Saraswati and Vivekanand had suggested. This would resolve most of the confusion wrt to Hindus and Hinduism and the innate timidity that is conspicuously discernible even in a Hindu who although privately at home is deeply rooted in his/her "Hindutva" and traditions but is very sheepish to admit it proudly in public.

Our, this apparent "inferiority complex" is the damndest damage that a colonial rule could do to our psyche as Macaulays' children who adopted the lifestyle and attitudes of our colonisers. In other words disloyalty and indifference towards one's own heritage ....

Nehru, the undisputed leader of 20th century India was the classical product of this Macaualyism. Shaped by the independence struggle with Tilak, Gandhi and Patel, he was an ardent nationalist, no doubt. But nevertheless, raised as an upper-crust blue-blooded aristocrat in his father's household and educated at Harrow and Cambridge, he was quite accurately described as a born Hindu with a Muslim culture and Western life style. His own brand of pseudo-secularism with Soviet style socialism clashed with prominent and market friendly conservatives in the Congress party such as Patel and Rajagopalachari who were either marginalised or elbowed out in favour of like-minded socialists.

This was the end of our national Renaissance which started in mid 19th century and the beginning of the decline of our morals and civilisational ethos ...
Vijay Agarwal
Northampton, United Kingdom
Nov 04, 2008 12:00 AM
144
I hope that this article will come as eye opener for our politicians.The should to find solution to the problem rather then carry on their vote bank piolitics.
CA Atul P.Shukla
Allahabad, India
Nov 04, 2008 12:00 AM
145
"Talking about conversion whihc hindus never did when we say that we mean we never took sword for that. "

I never disputed that. I am just saying say it clearly.
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Nov 04, 2008 12:00 AM
146
Ganesan:>>" Imperialism today has become a bad word but it was considered a great thing during those days."

Right. Crowning of a king as the emperor of the indian subcontinent was more by acceptace of most other kings; only the few wjo resisted had to be fought and one, like jaraasandha being killed by bheema, before yushishtira was crowned as emperor, after raaja-sooya-yagjna.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Nov 04, 2008 12:00 AM
147
Coorection on last post:
"only the few who resisted had to be actually fought and won"
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Nov 04, 2008 12:00 AM
148
"Just as there is the myth about hindus never invaded foreign countries, there is the myth about hindus never convery anyone. That is another staple from these people. I wonder what Adi Sankara did in his last 8 years of his life." Ganesan

This belongs to a different Platform altogether.you can not conflate, much less equate, Theocratic Fascism of Islam that decimated cultures and civilizations and freedoms-to Hindu excesses and perversions, however dangerous they were to Dalits, etc
hindu
Varanasi, India
Nov 04, 2008 12:00 AM
149
I have only one basic comment to Mr Francois Gautier - You should first try and understand who are called Hindus ?.
You must be aware if you have been in India people refer to each other not only by you are a
Hindu but rather are you Brahmin, Kshatriya, Dalit, SC, ST etc.. ?
Maybe you are not aware of how the so called lower caste people are treated by other upper class people like Brahmins etc.. even today.
You mentioned
"They see their brothers and sisters converted to Christianity through inducements and financial traps" - If you are an outcast in your own religion what would you do ? Is it wrong to seek the truth and accept Christianity ?
If it was for mere inducements and financial help - all people who convert to christianity would have become rich and wealthy.
I was a Hindu for 25 years from a so called high caste - I have converted to Christianity because of certain things which i have realized on my own not by inducement and financial traps.
Have you heard of any lower caste, SC, ST, Dalit being converted to a Brahmin and given the same respect as they or other high caste people get ?

"What should be understood is that this is a spontaneous revolution on the ground, by ordinary Hindus, without any planning from the political leadership."

This is utter nonsense, this is politically motivated by the fanatics who cannot see the fact that India is for Indians(muslims,christians,hindus). If Father of our Nation saw hindus, muslims and christians alike and as Indians. What should these people who are taking the path for destroying Indians called ?
Nithin
Bangalore, India
Nov 04, 2008 12:00 AM
150
Friedrich Nietzsche once said,"I'm not upset that you lied to me, I'm upset that from now on I can't believe you”..thats what I can say about you Francois Gautier. The way you started to describe about the ethos and qualities of Hindus in Villages that surely falls into place..Who can forget the idea of Hinduism Swami Vivekananda preached, or Ramkrishna Paramhansa pour into the minds of millions. Sri Chaitanya Deb preached Vaishnab Dharma which emphasized on the importance of love for the humanity. But they never said something black as white, what you are trying to portray here. Justifying terror acts in the name of a silent revolution, one must question the editor's interest in authenticity when he published it. Kandhamal 2008, Gujrat 2002, Neily in Assam 1982, Bhagalpur in 1989..stories of rape, mass killing by hindu fanatics which are recorded and Internationally condemned are mere stories of "revolution". I never blame the common Hindus, because they still follow the path of Swami Vivekanand, Ramkrishna and many others. But if fanatics and murderers in Sangh Parivar are called innocents, then please put all your effort to change the definition of "Innocence" in the Oxford Dictionary. Our future generation must not be misguided. If today another Nuremburgh trial would have taken place, I did not know how many persons you are defending now( for which favors ) would not have the same fate like the Nazi Lieutenants.
Again I want to say, go again to the victims of such Genocides and learn to identify What is White and What is Black.
Adil Hossain
Silligudi, India
Nov 04, 2008 12:00 AM
151
"Again I want to say, go again to the victims of such Genocides and learn to identify What is White and What is Black."

It is WIDELY believed that 80 million Hindus were killed by Islamic jihadi terrorists over a span of 700 years, in India. Buddhists fared far worse. Hindus must read and rerea their history and be AWARE of Islamic imperialism in India that occupied 40% of India's HOLY land and is trying to Islamize the rest through terror and EXPLODING population growth of Muslims in India
hindu
Varanasi, India
Nov 05, 2008 12:00 AM
152
Lalit,

>> i despise islam.

You have said this 1500 times over the past 5 years. Don't you have anything new to say?
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Nov 05, 2008 12:00 AM
153
Seshadri,

>> feudal conquests among princes of the same indic culture do not qualify as genocidal invasions.

"Genocidal invasions" must be a term borrowed by sanghi historians from the conquistadors in America! They will do anything to malign the Muslims! Pre-Islamic battles in India were as bloody as any, so stop this "holier-than-thou" charade.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Nov 05, 2008 12:00 AM
154
Ganesan,

>> My final post about hindu rulers invading other countries. I do NOT consider it a bad thing it all. Imperialism today has become a bad word but it was considered a great thing during those days.

Exactly. Thanks for saying that! Hindu conquerors were no worse than Muslim conquerors.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Nov 05, 2008 12:00 AM
155
"Hindu conquerors were no worse than Muslim conquerors."

People can have different opinion about that. My take is in the final analysis, hindus deserved it because they failed to fortify their defense.

A country needs to be on the alert and well prepared ALL THE TIME. If not, the country will be hit. No point blaming outsiders when you did not do everything in your power to protect yourself.
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Nov 05, 2008 12:00 AM
156
hossain

lets stop the blame game, and realise that hindus and muslims have different sets of values, culture and liveing togather has always been a problem,

jinnah realised this and stated this quite clearly, and this was his reason for forming
pakistan. now at least pakistani muslims cant blame us for their various problems.

if pakistan had not been formed then the present hindu muslim problems would have been overwhelming.

attempts of muslims,hindus,bongos, tamils, etc
to live togather have proven to be a disaster.

the problems of hindus and muslims are the most serious. they will continue- unless we can have clear separations ,and bounderies.

africa is faceing similar problems in sudan/darfur,ruwanda , and now congo.

the partition of india in 1947 was incomplete.
it should have resulted in a total separation,
between hindus and muslims.

today i bet indian and pakistani muslims are much
closer to each other then indian muslims are to nonmuslims in india.

maybe another partition would be the right medicine,for all concerned.

the faruki,s of india would be happier and better adjusted in pakistan, and many of us would be happy to see his back side.

its a cold logical descision.parents of faruki and others made a dreadful mistake in not immigrateing to pakistan. what have they gained by staying in india.

for myself not all the gold in the world would tempt me to live in pakistan, or any other muslim country.

why do muslims keep on recounting the number of muslims killed. in 1947 there were 30 million muslims. today there are 170 millions. rabits cant grow faster then this.
lalitmb
kalundborg, Denmark
Nov 05, 2008 12:00 AM
157
faruki

was the genocide of bangladeshi,s in 1971 been a benign act.

the indian army took 110,000 muslim prisoners.
they were treated well. indira gandhi agreed
to let bhutto of the hook by signing the simla
accord,which he repudiated at the earliest opportunity.

look at the genocide in darfur.Liveing old people, and children thrown into blazeing huts.

you are an inveterate lier. indians faced people like you many centuries ago, were decieved,
and lost their mother land.

Pakistani muslims have always acted as barbarians. Read the book by Benazir- Daughter of the East- and see for yourself how muslims treat their enemies. In this case Zia Ul Haq
was kept in a tin hut in the blazeing sun, illtreated, humiliated and carried in a helpless state to be hanged.

The whole list of Sharia punishments, stoneing
of women, amputating the hands of thieves, the
gougeing of eyes of prisoners , whipping prisoners are the core of your religion.

Barbarians-

You have the nerve of saying muslim conquerors were no worse then others. They were worse then hyenas.
lalitmb
kalundborg, Denmark
Nov 05, 2008 12:00 AM
158
Naive, attention - hungry Injuns might gulp down every word against Moslems that Francois Gautier writes but his sincerity is suspect.

Before one can take Gautier's stand on the Hindu Moslem divide seriously, one needs to first see a proof of his sincerity. V S Naipaul had once famously derided people exactly like this Gautier ( a dope - dealing beach - bum turned country - expert ! ) as " revolutionaries / activists from the West with return tickets ".

About the Hindus who he claims to admire, Gautier writes :

" They see their brothers and sisters converted to Christianity through inducements and financial traps, see a harmless 84-year-old swami and a sadhvi brutally murdered. Their gods are blasphemed. "

His pro - Hindu and anti - Moslem outpourings will sound a whole lot more convincing if Gautier has the guts to confront his fellow Christians first. If he really likes Hinduism so much he should have the guts to go up to the Vatican and ask Benedict to lay off his agenda of gaining converts in India by temptation ( promises of equality, education, financial aid and even salvation ).

Otherwise he is just another scam artist like Mark Tully or William Dalrymple on the make in an India still obsessed and deferential to the " Gora Sahibs " !
Gaurav
Santa Fe, United States
Nov 05, 2008 12:00 AM
159
>> People can have different opinion about that. My take is in the final analysis, hindus deserved it because they failed to fortify their defense.

>> A country needs to be on the alert and well prepared ALL THE TIME. If not, the country will be hit. No point blaming outsiders when you did not do everything in your power to protect yourself.

Completely agree. And, if we fail to protect ourselves from regular terrorist strikes, and resort to stupid appeals for peace in place of concrete action, we deserve these too.
Al Bundy
San Francisco, United States
Nov 05, 2008 12:00 AM
160
Pinaki Ray >> For the record, I was born a Hindu in Calcutta - there were no Dalits in Bengal.

Really!! Have you ever stepped out of Bhadralok? You will see that Bengal is not the state of brahmins and kayasthas.

Dalits constitute 20-25% of population in West Bengal, same as in other states.
See census data.

http://www.censusindia....ST/dh_sc_westbengal.pdf

Rajesh
Phoenix, United States
Nov 05, 2008 12:00 AM
161
faruki,
"Exactly. Thanks for saying that! Hindu conquerors were no worse than Muslim conquerors"

wrong. hindus did not destroy other cultures. in fact they changed their beliefs to suit other cultures. if you look at the temples of angkor & wat, you would realise this. even the faces of hindu gods like vishnu, ram etc are distictly ethnic combodian. the cholas and pandyas didn't destroy the ethnic cultures or religions.

on the other hand, your tribe did everything to destroy hinduism & budhism. even your historians boast about it. mughal historians have written volumes about how they destroyed temples, viharas and killed millions of hindus and budhists.
namo4
London, United Kingdom
Nov 05, 2008 12:00 AM
162
hossain,

" I never blame the common Hindus, because they still follow the path of Swami Vivekanand, Ramkrishna and many others"

really!!. even vivekanand is termed as a hindu fanatic by your friends here and the secularfascists like OUTLOOK. ramkrishna is termed as a lunatic by the same people. this is what is leading more & more hindus to BD.

for the so called seculars, hindu bashing gives them roji roti. more hindu basher you are, more secular you are. this is the reason they call vivekanand as a fanatic and ramkrishna a lunatic.

hindus are taking bombs because they are pushed in to corner by the axis of evil, congress-secularfascist media-votebank politics-chrsitian missionaries. if this axis is broken and hindusim is given the respect it deserves, the bombs will stop.
namo4
London, United Kingdom
Nov 05, 2008 12:00 AM
163
Namo,

>> hindus did not destroy other cultures.

After 700 years of Muslim rule, Hindu culture is safe and thriving. It will however be destroyed by the sangh parivar in their attempts to copy Islamofascism.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Nov 05, 2008 12:00 AM
164
Namo,

>> even vivekanand is termed as a hindu fanatic by your friends here.

Not true. Savarkar, Golwalkar, Godse and Modi are the fanatics, not Vivekanand or Gandhi.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Nov 05, 2008 12:00 AM
165
namo

there is no reason to explain or make excuses for the sadhvi. if she did what she is accused of, then there is ample justufication for it.

forgetting stray incidents the facts are that muslims in india,s neighbourhood and in india ,
are fanatics,bigots, unsucessful people- obsessed
by their failures and determined to attack the
societies where they live.

faruki ignores all inconvenient questions, but
they should be asked again and again.

how can he explain the disastrous failure of pakistan, where the population has gone up from 30 to 170 millions in 60 years, without any one dareing to talk about it.

how can he explain that the country by near unanimous consent has chosen a islamic consitution, with laws of blasphemy and the infamous hudood laws.

he ignores the desperate position of minorities
and women in india, and the murders and killings every day.

he ignores that the mullahs, and the islamic parties support taliban. the tiny sliver of the western elite enjoys privileges, but remains
quiet about the awful goings on.

he ignores the awful and horrid regimes of afghanistan and bangladesh. these societies are
the creation of former indian muslims, and the
indian muslims in mindset, are if anything even worse then them.

indian muslims are abject flops- and there is not
even a handful who have made it to the top, except in cinema, and a few in cricket.

Resulting from this failure, and the teachings of their evil religion, they are incapable of being decent loyal citizens of india.They are not decent loyal citizens of any country which has taken them in. Read any article in the foreign press, and the angry letters by the natives of their country, wishing to throw them out.

In short we have 170 million muslims in India, who are no different from Pakistani,s in their religion, culture and mindset. Expecting any good from them is being extremely naive.

Faruki is a prime example of a man who lives in a decent society in USA, but has nothing good to say about it. All his efforts are in defence of people who are in trouble with the law.All his
sympathy lies with terror groups like Hamas, Hexbollah, and the erstwhile Afghan freedom fighters who have now transformed themselves into
the taliban.

I find that the correspondence in this forum reveals that the Hindus who are the victims of
muslim militancy, and backwardness are bending
backwards to please the muslims.

Its time to call this of. The rules of the game will change, regardless of any incident like that of the Sadhvi. Or do we want to accept India
being turned into a half islamic state.

If Faruki and his gang want to live in a islamic state thén they can buy a one way ticket to pakistan- or any other which will let them in.
lalitmb
kalundborg, Denmark
Nov 05, 2008 12:00 AM
166
faruki

we have had 700 years of muslim rule.

now its our turn to have 700 years of hindu rule.

you will be allowed to retain your islamic culture in azamgarh, malegaon etc. if needed you can build walls around them, and no hindu will enter these zones.
lalitmb
kalundborg, Denmark
Nov 05, 2008 12:00 AM
167

The author has captured the essence of the situation. My own thoughts are echoed in his statement. People of the world need to appreciate the Hindu ethos of tolerance and accommodation.
Muslim for Reform
Nashik, India
Nov 05, 2008 12:00 AM
168
AP:>>” After 700 years of Muslim rule, Hindu culture is safe and thriving.”

It will be more correct to say: ‘despite 700 yrs of moslem rule, hindu culture is surviving, bec of its strange ‘cast’ system, of voluntary profnl classes [absent in persian zoro and afghan Buddhism, destroyed]; but it is neither safe nor thriving, bec of the same cast system having deteriorated into 'hereditary caste system’, now.

>>” It will however be destroyed by the sangh parivar in their attempts to copy Islamofascism”

If the sangh parivar copies islamo-fascism, it will destroy itself, along with the latter.
But, Hinduism as catur-yoga sanaatana-dharma religion of spirituality, will live on indefinitely, in india and elsewhere in the world..

But, you are right, the sangh parivar does behave like a ‘sudarshan caliphate’, with permanent-for-life leadership. But then, this seems to be, unfortunately, true of all political parties, in india, today. The leftists have a permanent-till-death politbureau. Congress is really a sonia-caliphate, bjp only an advani caliphate, with permanent sub-caliphs in each state. Shiv sena under Thackerays. Same with alliance parties, in power and oppo. TN has royal family under karunaanidhi. Every super-category film-star, has become another caliph for the film-fans’ association under him or her!

Inner-party democracy, with people in general voting in party-primaries to select the candidates for elections, as in USA, has no place in the Indian demonarchy. Only Mahajan wanted to bring about the primary system for candidate selections in bjp, as a ‘party with a difference’, but he was done away with, unfortunately!
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Nov 05, 2008 12:00 AM
169
dr s

faruki would not dare to give advice to his own community on any serious matter-

in front of a couple of mullahs, he would be stiff with fear.

however he is ever ready to tell us what we should be doing.

i remember a tv interview on danish tv. a couple
of muslim asylum seekers were being interviewed
with the danish foreign minister.

one of them told the minister- i suggest that you convert to islam.its a good religion.

muslims like faruki besides being stupid are enormously naive. its impertinence of the highest
order for him to chose our mentors.

he should try and reform his own mentally challenged tribe,before he gets down to adviseing us. how about a sabbatical for an year in malegaon, or azamgargh.
lalitmb
kalundborg, Denmark
Nov 05, 2008 12:00 AM
170
RAJESH
PHOENIX UNITED STATES

I did anticipate at the time of my writing to you that you could come up with "something" which would demolish me, and now your reference to the census statistics table (CST) for West Bengal (WB) does this ! Hence I should explain my viewpoint re caste-system in India.
First, the definition of "Dalit" is missing in the CST - so who are they in WB? Nevertheless, I am willing to accept your definition and identification of Dalits with the Scheduled Castes (SC) in the CST. This is not to say that I had accepted your hilarious definition of the "capitalist" some days ago in the other forum.

CST quotes a figure of 23% for SC (=Dalits) in WB in 2001. This is sizable, and therefore I am caught wrong footed which I admit now. But this figure could be challenged - over the decades many in the rural sector changed their names (eg. to 'Mondal') for registering as SC for gaining advantages in various walks of life in accordance with the reservation policies of Delhi. I know one such family who did it. Also, many Bihari Dalits have slowly moved over to WB for escaping difficulties in Bihar. This is fine as far as I am concerned as long as these people adopt the local customs and languages and melt down. I have met a few such people as taxi drivers in Calcutta. Thus the true percentage of genuine Bengali Dalits is unknown and must be less than this CST figure.

Interestingly, CST states the following:
"Literacy & Educational Level
...
8.The Sunri (excluding Saha) with 82.5 per cent literacy is on top of the list...."

This figure of 82.5% of literacy is high enough in my books to prove that SC (Dalits) are not oppressed in any way in WB. Otherwise such a figure could not have been achieved. And this is precisely the problem since you are claiming that the Hindus are oppressing Dalits, presumably all over the nation! That is likely to be the case in Bihar, UP etc., but could not be said for WB. In other words, Hinduism extends way beyond the confines of the cowbelt where Dalits are not exploited and are well placed in the society. For example, the "Saha"s are traditional jewelers in Bengal and have amassed huge fortunes in gold over centuries, they are very rich in general, whereas some Brahmins work as domestic cooks! So one cannot say that the "upper" castes exploit and subjugate the "lower" castes among the Hindus wherever Hinduism has flourished. This disproves your claim

"... No need. Hindus subjugated their own - Dalits.... "

I trust this now establishes my message to you in my previous post in this forum. It seems that you have shot yourself in the foot by referring to official census statistics.
Pinaki S Ray
Adelaide, Australia
Nov 05, 2008 12:00 AM
171
Lalit:

In full agreement with you, on your views on AP.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Nov 05, 2008 12:00 AM
172
" After 700 years of Muslim rule, Hindu culture is safe and thriving.”

That argument does not prove anything-apart from the survival instincts of the people involved. The anti-communist movement thrived in Poland even after the clampdown. Jews thrive today even after the holocaust.
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Nov 05, 2008 12:00 AM
173
faruki,
"It will however be destroyed by the sangh parivar in their attempts to copy Islamofascism"

Islamofascism didn't finish islam. infact it is getting stronger!!. islam has fouind a new horse to ride. islamofascism. muslims are using islamofascism as a tool to threaten governments across the world. and they are getting everything they want. why blame RSS for using the same tactics?
namo4
London, United Kingdom
Nov 05, 2008 12:00 AM
174
Lalit,

>> faruki ignores all inconvenient questions, but they should be asked again and again.

You have never made an intelligent comment or asked an intelligent question. You are just a loud-mouthed nuisance in this forum that we have to put up with! Moreover I am not here to answer anyone's questions, least of all those from a dunce like you.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Nov 05, 2008 12:00 AM
175
Seshadri,

>> despite 700 yrs of moslem rule, hindu culture is surviving, bec of its strange ‘cast’ system.

You will for ever be an apologist of the caste system, just as you are an apologist of sati! The theory that the caste system saved Hindu culture is pure bunkum invented by the Hindutvadis.

>> Hinduism as catur-yoga sanaatana-dharma religion of spirituality.

Yes, but this would be less and less so under the hate ideologies of VHP/RSS.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Nov 05, 2008 12:00 AM
176
Seshadri,

>> Lalit: In full agreement with you, on your views on AP.

The Alliance of Evil!
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Nov 05, 2008 12:00 AM
177
>> Jews thrive today even after the holocaust.

In Germany they are just a relic of what they used to be.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Nov 05, 2008 12:00 AM
178
Namo,

>> Islamofascism didn't finish islam. infact it is getting stronger!

If you think Wahabis, Talibans and Al Qaeda have made Islam stronger and are good models for Hinduism to follow, that only shows how your mind was ruined by your being educated in an RSS run school. You could have had a fine mind if you had gone to a good secular school.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Nov 05, 2008 12:00 AM
179
"The theory that the caste system saved Hindu culture is pure bunkum invented by the Hindutvadis."

Like Vivekananda. And Ambedkar.
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Nov 05, 2008 12:00 AM
180
Stopperbhai,

>> While accusing others as apologists what about you justifying the termination of an infidel as a holy act.

When did I justify that? Can you ever open your mouth without lying?
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Nov 05, 2008 12:00 AM
181
"The Constitution of any country — be it India, America, Saudi Arabia or Pakistan — reflects the will of the majority in that society. Democratic Constitutions, as in India and the US, that guarantee equality and equal opportunity are actually bequests bestowed on the minorities by the majority. If the Hindus of India were as narrow-minded as the Muslims of Pakistan, we would not have a Constitution that embodies some of the noblest ideas.

However, the survival of such Constitutions in multi-ethnic and multi-cultural societies is subject to a rider — namely, the state (meaning the legislature, the judiciary and the bureaucracy) should enjoy the confidence of the majority. Democracy becomes unworkable and unviable when the majority loses faith in the state. Should such a situation ever arise, tectonic changes could occur and the first casualty could be the country’s Constitution and democracy.

The arrest of the sadhvi and the talk of possible involvement of former or present members of the armed forces in this alleged conspiracy is sufficient indication of the majority’s lack of faith in the state. For this the Prime Minister and some of his irresponsible colleagues, who console families of terrorists and not the families of the victims of terrorism, must be held accountable.

Only an evil genius could have provoked peace-loving Hindus towards acts of violence. Before a social tsunami destroys all that we value the most - democracy, the secular order, and the liberal way of life - we must rid ourselves of this coalition that is destroying the very basic foundations of our democratic republic."

read:
http://www.outlookindia...n+Terror+%28F%29&sid=2#
Vijay Agarwal
Northampton, United Kingdom
Nov 05, 2008 12:00 AM
182
AP to Namo:>>"If you think Wahabis, Talibans and Al Qaeda have made Islam stronger and are good models for Hinduism to follow"

My God!. You have no time to read any post properly or take the trouble to understand it. Bec you have to give rhetorical rebuts to all of them! This is true of most of your half-read or single-line-read replies, to my posts, also. You reco lun-asylam to me, but you are already there!.

namo does not mean hinduism will follow the wahabi model. He means that these negative forces will induce unification and strengthening of hinduism and some purification, also, of some of its negative features acquired over the ages.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Nov 05, 2008 12:00 AM
183
sorry wrong link ... the correct one is:


http://dailypioneer.com...u-terror-Blame-UPA.html
Vijay Agarwal
Northampton, United Kingdom
Nov 05, 2008 12:00 AM
184
Ganesan,

>>>> "The theory that the caste system saved Hindu culture is pure bunkum invented by the Hindutvadis."
>> Like Vivekananda. And Ambedkar.

I don't think they said that. Gandhi did say it because he considered heriditary nature of occupations to be important. But the ones who mouth this theory these days are the hindutvadis.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Nov 05, 2008 12:00 AM
185
Seshadri,

>> namo does not mean hinduism will follow the wahabi model. He means that these negative forces will induce unification and strengthening of hinduism.

Namo has been a longstanding advocate of militancy and admires the sanghi outfits for their aggressiveness.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Nov 05, 2008 12:00 AM
186
Ambedkar writing on why hinduism survived the muslim onslaught but Buddhism did not

"or the Hindus, every Brahmin was a potential priest. No ordination was mandated. Neither anything else. Every household carried on rituals -- oblations, recitation of particular mantras, pilgrimages, each Brahmin family made memorizing some Veda its very purpose.... By contrast, Buddhism had instituted ordination, particular training etc. for its priestly class. Thus, when the invaders massacred Brahmins, Hinduism continued. But when they massacred the Buddhist monks, the religion itself was killed."

What Ambedkar does not mention(and it is obvious) is that the separation of duties between the four varnas provided a decentralized system for hinduism and hence survived.

And Vivekananda

"Though our castes and our institutions are apparently linked with our religion, they are not so. These institutions have been necessary to protect us as a nation, and when this necessity for self-preservation will no more exist, they will die a natural death. "

And more

"Beginning from Buddha to Rammohan Ray, everyone made the mistake of holding caste to be a religious institution and tried to pull down religion and caste altogether, and failed. In spite of all the ravings of the priests, caste is simply a crystallized social institution, which after doing its service is now filling the atmosphere of India with its stench, and it can only be removed by giving back to people their lost social individuality. Caste is simply the outgrowth of the political institutions of India; it is a hereditary trade guild. Trade competition with Europe has broken caste more than any teaching. THE UNDERLYING IDEA OF THE CASTE SYSTEM The older I grow, the better I seem to think of caste and such other time-honored institutions of India. There was a time when I used to think that many of them were useless and worthless, but the older I grow, the more I seem to feel a difference in cursing any one of them, for each one of them is the embodiment of the experience of centuries. A child of but yesterday, destined to die the day after tomorrow, comes to me and asks me to change all my plans and if I hear the advice of that baby and change all my surroundings according to his ideas I myself should be a fool, and no one else. "

A lot more can be added.
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Nov 05, 2008 12:00 AM
187
Ganesan,

Vivekanad just makes an assertion without explaining it. And Ambedkar seems to assume that the invaders massacred brahmins. There may be better explanations of why Hinduism survived. But when the caste system is held up as a savior, I am suspicious about the motives behind such an avowal.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Nov 06, 2008 12:00 AM
188
"Vivekanad just makes an assertion without explaining it."

Before making such statements, why dont you go ahead and read the four speeches he made in Madras?
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Nov 06, 2008 12:00 AM
189
"indian muslims are abject flops- and there is not
even a handful who have made it to the top, except in cinema, and a few in cricket. Resulting from this failure, and the teachings of their evil religion, they are incapable of being decent loyal citizens of india.They are not decent loyal citizens of any country which has taken them in. Read any article in the foreign press, and the angry letters by the natives of their country, wishing to throw them out."


Lalit MB:

Shame on you for writing this. You sound like a Nazi general of the 1930s Germany. No Indian can talk like this. Your postings reflect your gutter mentality and the rotten family and social values you subscribe to.
Bobby Naqvi
dubai, United Arab Emirates
Nov 06, 2008 12:00 AM
190
Anatomy Of Sangh Parivar
Various components of RSS family sometimes have some differences also, but these are sorted out by the patriarch RSS, through subtle control and ideological mechanisms so that their cohesion with the goal to destroy democracy, through all the means, including using democratic platforms for the same, remains intact. Sadhvi is involved in the blasts or not, army officers or involved in these acts or not should hopefully come out despite their ideological plants scattered all over. What it has brought to our notice is the dangers of this multi headed hydra, which is working in the democratic system with a goal to abolish democracy itself and bring in Hindu nation, another name of fascist formation, abusing the Hindu religion, the religion of Kabir and Gandhi!

In RSS scheme of things the organizational affiliation comes second, the primary thing which they instill is the ideological subordination. Most of those involved in these acts will not have any remorse for what they did, as like the Al Qaeda variety, they are indoctrinated to believe that it is nationalism (Hindu in this case, in Al Qaeda variety it is Islamic nation of course) so what you are doing while instigating anti minority violence or while planting the bombs is for the service of your religion!

While superficially at loggerheads the ideological wavelength of RSS indoctrination is similar to the one used in Pakistani Madrassas for training Al Qaeda. Here the religion is different paradigms are same. To deal with such ideologies leading to acts of terror, what is also needed is to combat their ideological foundations.

http://www.countercurrents.org/puniyani051108.htm
Subroto Chatterjee1
Kolkatta, India
Nov 06, 2008 12:00 AM
191
RELIGION-INDIA: Secular Fabric Under Threat
By Praful Bidwai
"This is not the first time that Hindu fundamentalists have been implicated in acts of violence," says Tanika Sarkar, a professor of modern Indian history at Jawaharlal Nehru University, and author of several books and scholarly papers on the Sangh Parivar and the Hindutva movement.

"But this is probably the first time that an underground network operating on a large scale across different states, which has actually planted bombs targeted at Muslims, has been unearthed,'' Sarkar told IPS.

Sarkar added: "These Hindutva-inspired terrorists are no less dangerous and indefensible than terrorists inspired by jehadi Islam. But the difference is that the first kind of terrorism has a wider base because the Hindus are a majority in India. It also enjoys official sanction and state patronage, unlike jihadi militancy."

Sarkar argues that majoritarian extremism tries to pass itself off as inspired by nationalism, and that this is a major fallacy. It is as pernicious as minority extremism. The BJP stands isolated on the issues of its links with Sadhvi Thakur. It first denied that she has had anything to do with the BJP, the RSS or ABVP in recent years.

However, Thakur campaigned for the BJP in the last two legislative assembly elections in Gujarat, in 2002 and 2007. She also has close links with high BJP functionaries, including Madhya Pradesh state Chief Minister Shivraj Singh Chauhan.

The BJP's prime ministerial nominee LK Advani tried to distance the party from Thakur, and said the law should be allowed to take its own course.

But last week, the RSS intervened and demanded that the BJP staunchly defend Thakur and other suspects. Party president Rajnath Singh now says that there can be no such thing as a "Hindu terrorist" and those who believe in Hindutva can never be attracted to extremism because Hinduism is inherently tolerant.

"This is hogwash," holds Sarkar, "because Hindutva is nothing if not a concentrated expression of intolerance, which believes in forcibly asserting and imposing Hindu primacy or supremacy on a society that is deeply plural, multicultural and multireligious."

http://www.ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=44581
Subroto Chatterjee1
Kolkatta, India
Nov 06, 2008 12:00 AM
192
Kandhamal beats Gujarat in violence statistics
It's the figure that might force Orissa Chief Minister Naveen Patnaik to say good bye to his 'trusted political friends' before the coming polls. The 'figure' is as politically devastating as the riots that witnessed 500 Christians being brutalised and massacred in the Kandhamal district in the wake of the slaying of VHP leader Swami Lakshamananda Sarswati on the night of August 23.

Contrast this with the official tolls in the February-May 2002 Gujarat communal carnage.

According to official figures more than a thousand people were killed in the violence after the Godhra train incident. (Independent estimates by rights groups and NGOs placed the figure higher, nearer to 2000).

Clearly 1,000 deaths (official) in the entire state of Gujarat during fours months stand nowhere in comparison to 500 deaths in one district of Orissa in one month. Kandhamal is just a small district of the state.

http://indiatoday.digit...d=4&issueid=78&Itemid=1
Subroto Chatterjee1
Kolkatta, India
Nov 06, 2008 12:00 AM
193
""because Hindutva is nothing if not a concentrated expression of intolerance,"

The Supreme court called Hindutva a way of life.
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Nov 06, 2008 12:00 AM
194
Faces of terror

Bajrang Dal: Youth wing of VHP, founded in 1984. Played a role in the Babri mosque demolition, murder of missionary Graham Staines, and the Gujarat riots.
Durga Vahini: Women’s wing of Bajrang Dal, set up in 1991 under Sadhvi Ritambhara. Was involved in Babri demolition.
Hindu Defence Force: Set up in Gujarat during the 2002 riots, is active in Maharashtra.
Jaanta Raja: An extremist Hindu organisation linked to the Shiv Sena, had a role in Malegaon riots, 2001 and said to have provided logistical support in the September 2006 blasts.
Hindu Munnani: Formed in 1980 as a front organisation of the RSS in Tamil Nadu. Incited riots after the Babri demolition.
Rashtriya Jagran Manch: Formed in 2007 by a breakaway group of RSS. Believed to be involved in Malegaon, Modasa and Kanpur blasts.
Abhinav Bharat: Formed in 2004. Allegedly involved in Nanded, Malegaon and Modasa blasts.

http://indiatoday.digit...36&limit=1&limitstart=1
Subroto Chatterjee1
Kolkatta, India
Nov 06, 2008 12:00 AM
195
ganesan

in england i remember that a friend gave a lift to his college matron- and she said.

thank you phillip, that was a nice christian act. later on my friend laughed at it.

he was a chinese agnostic, but he realised that the matron had given him a geniune compliment.

we hindus should have the right in our own blessed country to show affection, respect for our culture.

for the seculars this is hindutwa bigotry. if
we said inshallah, bismillah or something on these lines then we would be respectable secular guys.

imagine the absurdity. in danish schools, muslim
children are taught to disregard anything which shows the slightest respect for the christian religion.their parents make a huge fuss about it.
drawing animals or humans is also forbidden. it
is against islam.

one can understand why the resident maulvi is such a strange creature- what with this weird upbringing.



lalitmb
kalundborg, Denmark
Nov 06, 2008 12:00 AM
196
subroto

india has lots of guys like you.

a loss of a thousand or two is nothing to talk about. you would not be missed in any case.
lalitmb
kalundborg, Denmark
Nov 06, 2008 12:00 AM
197
bobby naqvi

dont dare question my family back ground,education. its far superior to yours.

what i have written is the exact truth, and that is annoying for you.

muslims should realise their contribution or lack of same in nonmuslim societies where they live. angry outbursts will not change things.

i bet that muslims at large, especially in their
own areas, like azamgarh, malegaon dont feel they are indians. they are muslims with a big m.

we hindus are tired of being told that we must be tolerant, secular whilst muslims are dogmatic and bigots. the bombings by muslim terrorists
in the last few years, and the reaction of the muslim community at large, has established their
lack of fellow feeling with us hindus.

stop blameing us, stop presenting your list
of greviences to us, and stop makeing demands.

do something for yourselves, if not for the country.

my family was expelled from north pakistan, lucky
just to escape without being hurt. we have not
recieved any kindness or decency, and i am all for paying you guys in the same coin.

you people have proved not just in india, but everywhere that you are not to be trusted.

hell you can not be good even to each other. look at the beastiality with which pakistanis and afghans behave with each other. especially the way they treat their women is unforegiveable.

muslims must learn to behave in a civilised and decent manner. the german generals were at least
good to their own people, and their women.

i have more respect for them then the hideous muslims one meets in pakistan and india.
lalitmb
kalundborg, Denmark
Nov 06, 2008 12:00 AM
198
Good One MB..

Everywhere USA UK EUROPE all muslims do is whinge and seek secial concession.

Hindus too live in those countries and are ahead of even the whites in education economics ladder..

Point is this is not india specific story these guys are eternal whiners they keep whining until they get shariah republic even then do not stop.. then bunch of them start whining that they did not get real shariah that;'s whay they are backward .. no freaking boyd knows what real shariah is or whether it;s practicable.. Muhd cud practice real shariah because wheatever he did actually was shariaha so you see there was no pressure to follow any principle for muhd.. whatever he did became shariah ..

Rahul
Delhi, India
Nov 06, 2008 12:00 AM
199
Missinary graham Staines was killed by Dara singh who later on was found to be youth congress member by the hounrable court.. repeat after me GrahN Staines was killed by youth congress member........
Rahul
Delhi, India
Nov 06, 2008 12:00 AM
200
Missinary graham Staines was killed by Dara singh who later on was found to be youth congress member by the hounrable court.. repeat after me GrahN Staines was killed by youth congress member........
Rahul
Delhi, India
Nov 06, 2008 12:00 AM
201
Missinary graham Staines was killed by Dara singh who later on was found to be youth congress member by the hounrable court.. repeat after me GrahN Staines was killed by youth congress member........
Rahul
Delhi, India
Nov 06, 2008 12:00 AM
202
Real face of
congress
www.thehindu.com/2008/10/05/stories/20
08100560571000.htm

Congress ministert found guilty and booke for ten years for terrorism .. so should we ban congress party now..

I mean if ex BajranG Dal member dying while making bomb can be reaosn enough for bannign bajrang dal then why not a congress minister found guilty of killing others not himself unlike ex-bajrang dal member be reaosn enough for bannign the congress party...........
Rahul
Delhi, India
Nov 06, 2008 12:00 AM
203
Real face of
congress
www.thehindu.com/2008/10/05/stories/20
08100560571000.htm

Congress ministert found guilty and booke for ten years for terrorism .. so should we ban congress party now..

I mean if ex BajranG Dal member dying while making bomb can be reaosn enough for bannign bajrang dal then why not a congress minister found guilty of killing others not himself unlike ex-bajrang dal member be reaosn enough for bannign the congress party...........
Rahul
Delhi, India
Nov 06, 2008 12:00 AM
204
Real face of
congress
www.thehindu.com/2008/10/05/stories/20
08100560571000.htm

Congress ministert found guilty and booke for ten years for terrorism .. so should we ban congress party now..

I mean if ex BajranG Dal member dying while making bomb can be reaosn enough for bannign bajrang dal then why not a congress minister found guilty of killing others not himself unlike ex-bajrang dal member be reaosn enough for bannign the congress party...........
Rahul
Delhi, India
Nov 06, 2008 12:00 AM
205
Real face of
congress
www.thehindu.com/2008/10/05/stories/20
08100560571000.htm

Congress ministert found guilty and booke for ten years for terrorism .. so should we ban congress party now..

I mean if ex BajranG Dal member dying while making bomb can be reaosn enough for bannign bajrang dal then why not a congress minister found guilty of killing others not himself unlike ex-bajrang dal member be reaosn enough for bannign the congress party...........
Rahul
Delhi, India
Nov 06, 2008 12:00 AM
206
Real face of
congress
www.thehindu.com/2008/10/05/stories/20
08100560571000.htm

Congress ministert found guilty and booke for ten years for terrorism .. so should we ban congress party now..

I mean if ex BajranG Dal member dying while making bomb can be reaosn enough for bannign bajrang dal then why not a congress minister found guilty of killing others not himself unlike ex-bajrang dal member be reaosn enough for bannign the congress party...........
Rahul
Delhi, India
Nov 06, 2008 12:00 AM
207
"Bajrang Dal: Youth wing of VHP, founded in 1984. Played a role in the Babri mosque demolition, murder of missionary Graham Staines, and the Gujarat riots."

Please read CAREFULLY the summary by Francois Gautier. BJP might be leaderless, unimaginative and gutless in its defense of either all Hindus or only some of them, but they all are victims of Islamic imperialis and colonialism.

As Francois states so aptly, the (for centiries ) persecution of Brahmins by Christian missionaries in Goa might be the reason for atrocities against Chrstians in Karnataka but the real issue is of Islamic Theocratic Fascism endangering the survival of all-Hindus, Buddhists and Christians alike

hindu
Varanasi, India
Nov 06, 2008 12:00 AM
208
RAJESH
PHOENIX UNITED STATES

Further to my response to your claim

"... No need. Hindus subjugated their own - Dalits.... "

I should refer you to the post by GANESAN NJ USA appearing in this forum, in particular to his quotes

"... Caste is simply the outgrowth of the political institutions of India; it is a hereditary trade guild...."

It seems to me that you are confusing the concepts of Hinduism as a religion with the Hindu society's caste hierarchy. Hindu religion never imposed caste hierarchy on its followers to my knowledge, whatever anyone may say.

Pinaki S Ray
Adelaide, Australia
Nov 06, 2008 12:00 AM
209
>> " Hindus who burn churches without killing anybody."

Gautier, who has been lying on behalf of the sangh for years, again turns a blind eye to the fact that several Christians were killed in Orissa, and homes as well as orphanages were set on fire. There are good Hindus and there are bad Hindus, as is true for all communities, but these simple facts are beyond the ken of hate propagandists like Gautier.

>> "However reprehensible the destruction of Babri Masjid, no Muslim was killed in the process; compare this to the 'vengeance' bombings of 1993 in Bombay, which wiped out hundreds of innocents, mostly Hindus."

This is a good example of Gautier's blatant lying. The "vengeance bombings" of the ganglord Dawood Ibrahim followed the riots unleashed by the Shiv Sena in which hundreds of Muslims were killed. Read Srikrishna Commission Report.

>> "Timur, who killed 1,00,000 Hindus in a single day in 1399".

Such figures are always exaggerated. Same number were reported killed in Ashoka's Kalinga battles.

Gautier needs to know that one of the pamphlets of Abhinav Bharat, which was implicated in Malegaon blast, says "the organisation calls for its members to seek revenge for the “killing of millions of Hindus over several centuries”. The Bajrang Dal is responsible for the deaths of hundreds in Gujarat, Bombay and Orissa. In a situation in which extremists of both sides are on a rampage and are learning new ways to kill large numbers of people, cheering on one side, and trying to curry favor with one side, are highly reprehensible activities bordering on the criminal. Gautier should identify himself as a hate propagandist rather than as a journalist or historian.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Nov 06, 2008 12:00 AM
210
006/11/08

"This is hogwash," holds Sarkar, "because Hindutva is nothing if not a concentrated expression of intolerance,"

This is pure hogwash. This is how Supreme Court ruled on Hindutva.

"The development of Hindu religion and philosophy shows that from time to time saints and religious reformers attempted to remove from the Hindu thought and practices element of corruption and superstition and that led to the formation of different sects. Buddha started Buddhism; Mahavir founded Jainism; Basava became the founder of Lingayat religion; Dhyaneshwar and Tukaram initiated the Varakari cult; Guru Nanak inspired Sikhism; Dayananda founded Arya Samaj, and Chaitanya began Bhakti cult; and as a result of the teachings of Ramakrishna and Vivekananda, Hindu religion flowered into its most attractive, progressive and dynamic form. If we study the teachings of these saints and religious reformers, we would notice an amount of divergence, there is a kind of subtle indescribable unity which keeps them within the sweep of the broad and progressive Hindu religion."
SC ruling on 11-12-95

Subrato is a confirmed left lunatic and is behind the todays India by hundred years.
True Hindu
Los Angeles, United States
Nov 06, 2008 12:00 AM
211
06/11/08

"trying to curry favor with one side, are highly reprehensible activities bordering on the criminal."

When one side continue to indulge in mindless violence, fuelled by an evil theology and hateful verses, it is suicidal for the others to remain silent and inactive; it calls for an active retalliation. It is the case of justifiable homicide.
True Hindu
Los Angeles, United States
Nov 06, 2008 12:00 AM
212
06/11/08

"Exactly. Thanks for saying that! Hindu conquerors were no worse than Muslim conquerors."

Name one Hindu king who made an offensive war, killed all the men on the enemy side, raped the women and sold the children and women captured in the war in the slave market. All these and more sanctioned by the verses in the Book.
True Hindu
Los Angeles, United States
Nov 06, 2008 12:00 AM
213
( Indian Muslim doing same what Paki did-Lait to me)

In Kashmir and Assam yes .Rest of India still some hope left for sanity which is evaporating speedily.Now Hindus have taken up the Arms .

We are in War of Cultures Mode.Any body any other explanation as honestly I am predicting doom ?? Welcome .


a k ghai
mumbai, India
Nov 06, 2008 12:00 AM
214
Pinaki Ray,
>> many Bihari Dalits have slowly moved over to WB for escaping difficulties in Bihar... Thus the true percentage of genuine Bengali Dalits is unknown and must be less than this CST figure.

Another guesswork. By co-incidence this is too is wrong.
There are lot of Bihari Dalits migrated to West Bengal. But they are not counted as scheduled caste in Bengal, thanks to discriminatory policies of successive W Bengal government.

Once again, I suggest you to step out of "bhadralok" and see the real world.
Dalits are discriminated and treated inhumanly in all states, not just Hindi heartland.

Next doubt is - whether real disadvantaged groups are categorized as scheduled caste. This is very important issue. For success of reservation and other welfare schemes, it is critical that castes categorized under scheduled caste is done not only with utmost care but also re-validate periodically.
You might find few wealthy Dalits and poor brahmins. But affirmative action is about class (caste in India), not individuals.
Rajesh
Phoenix, United States
Nov 06, 2008 12:00 AM
215
How did Hinduism survive in India in spite of 8 centuries of Moslem Invasion, Forced Conversion & Rule when faced with similar onslaught Buddhism could not survive in Afghanistan ? I am seeing posts here with various "poetic" reasons as to how this was possible e,g. the Hindu caste system ( some have even quoted Vivekananda - he could have been merely speculating and he certainly was not infallible ). No, one of principal reasons why Hinduism did survive is that there were simply too many Hindus for the Moslems to kill off and the conquerors ( much like the Brits after them ) had to depend on Hindu collaborators to carry on trade and collect the taxes for the Nawabs and up. This is very much why the Zebra or the Gnu survives in the African Plains in spite of predators like the Lions. Timid animals, be they the Zebra or Hindus, reproduce like heck in order to compensate for losses to predators who they dare not fight. In order to survive Hindus need not themselves turn into Jihadis ( which is what the BJP, the Bajrang Dal or their ilk aspires to ) but simply continue to live with dignity and let live. There is no reason to panic.

The days of Islam are numbered. It will soon vanish from even Mecca just as Communism has vanished from Russia itself.
Gaurav
Santa Fe, United States
Nov 06, 2008 12:00 AM
216
Whosoever thinks that there are no Dalits in W. Bengal must be NUTS !

Of course W. Bengal does not quite have the same level of violent apartheid that is common among Hindus in other states of India, where lower caste or outcasts are frequently barbecued by upper caste Hindus and their henchmen. But nevertheless W. Bengal has its share of the downtrodden. Like most of the rest of India there is a darker underclass who are the overwhelming majority in the countryside. These are proto - Dravidian / australic / Santhal type people who constitute abour 80 % of the Bengali population. The so - called Bhadralok ( gentry ) in WB on the other hand are the left overs and mixed breed from the Buddhist Pal dynasty that ruled Bengal for 4 centuries till the 10 th century AD and the Hindu Sen dynasty that followed in the 11th century. In order to establish a Hindu society this Sen dynasty had imported pure Aryan Brahmins from Kanauj in UP. But most so-called Brahmins in W. Bengal today are dark-skinned and uneducated who rebel against traditional Hinduism as they are the products of the old practice of those original Brahmin imports having their way with the dark proto Dravidian tribal Bengali women ( much like the later Moslem invaders ) and then not taking care of their numerous half - breed off - springs.

Most Communists and so - called intellectuals of Bengal are dark skinned half-breeds who rebel against the Hindu order beause they resent their Brahmin forefathers who created these bastards.

Gaurav
Santa Fe, United States
Nov 06, 2008 12:00 AM
217
[Nothing exceptional, just another day for the peaceful folks.....

Bus Stop, Market Blasts Kill 16, Wound 43 In Iraq- AHN

Taliban Suicide Attack Kills 7 - Daily Times

2 bombs in southern Thailand wound 71- AP

Taliban Open Fire on Police, 3 Killed - The News

The good Muslims are sure difficult to find... ]
lookout bug me not
mumbai, India
Nov 06, 2008 12:00 AM
218
Ghai,

>> We are in War of Cultures Mode.

Crying wolf does not do any good. We need to speak up against specific and factual points of danger; e.g. teaching of hate in shakhas and madrasas, Muslim and Hindu acts of terrorism, attempts by police and politicians to subvert justice, Muslim and Hindu vote banks etc. General comments expressing panic or hopelessness do not help.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Nov 06, 2008 12:00 AM
219
All I can say after reading the article is - Thank you Mr.Mehta and Thank you Mr.Gautier.
Ashok Mathur
Delhi, India
Nov 06, 2008 12:00 AM
220
" General comments expressing panic or hopelessness do not help.

Faruki

Perhaps different locations have resulted in difference of opinions.
a k ghai
mumbai, India
Nov 06, 2008 12:00 AM
221
06/11/08

"e.g. teaching of hate in shakhas and madrasas, Muslim and Hindu acts of terrorism, attempts by police and politicians to subvert justice, Muslim and Hindu vote banks etc."

Islam has a history of 1200 years of unabated violence, with a long list of genocides and is incomparable with any other religion/belief system in the world. It has destroyed Buddhism and Zorastrian religions. It is utter rubbish to compare it with a single retalliatory attack by a few Hindus. Only a Koraan brainwashed follower can do and believe that.
True Hindu
Los Angeles, United States
Nov 06, 2008 12:00 AM
222
Ghai,

>> Perhaps different locations have resulted in difference of opinions.

I don't see the same panic and hopelessness in the posts of others. Situation in India is always worrisome, but one has to maintain hope.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Nov 06, 2008 12:00 AM
223
mr ghai

the congress has been in power in india for 50 years. parties sympathatic to muslims have been in power in several states for decades.

bengal, kerala, assam, tamil nadu, andhra,
up,bihar have bent backwards to please muslims.

the results are abmyssal, and the explanations and excuses are long and tiresome.

i have pointed out the near total absence of muslims in the elite of india.

when i think of prominent muslims i think of say-
abul kalam, azeem premjee, hussain the painter,
salman rushdie, sania mirza, the khan bollywood
actors, the abdullahs from kasmir, a few congress leaders eg salman khursheed, ahmed patel,oweissi, imam of jama masjid, and then i
start wondering - is that all.

and then if i look at the bad guys amongst them, then there are quite a few. dawood ibrahim, chota shakeel, mohammed telgi, shahubdin, taslumiddin both from bihar.

muslims must take a hard look at themselves.
preaching homilies by various people in this
forum will not help.

the upward mobile middleclass are going to run at least a few of the progessive statés. they are biased against muslims, and this has nothing to do with the rss. middle class elite in europe is similarly biased against muslims.

obama did everything to dismiss his muslim connection, and emphasise his christianity.

problems of islam are universal and not india specific.only fools will disregard this.

i have great sympathy for muslim liberals eg tasleema nasreen, sania mirza, even hussain the painter. but they are as few as daffodils in
winter in denmark.

however muslims do not approve of these liberal
ikons. how many muslims in this forum have anything good to say about dr sultan, ayan hirsi
ali, or tasleema nasreen.

muslims tried to kill tasleema , and failing this had her deported.rushdie was similarly banished from india for several years.

lalitmb
kalundborg, Denmark
Nov 06, 2008 12:00 AM
224
faruki

i admire gautier.

he is expressing his own opinion. unlike the
seculars he has no axe to grind.

try and see that hindus, jews , americans, serbs,russians are no longer going to put up with muslim killers.

they will be and should be paid back in the same coin. muslim countries are dens of infamy, murder and mayhem, but i dare say you dont send your peace messages there.

as a jewish professor i met in london said to me-we are tired of being killed, and murdered.

now we will not tolerate this any more.

i have exactly the same feelings.

not just indian muslims, your blood brothers from across the borders have been killing, murdering innocent civilians, and no muslim in india has said one angry word to them.

enough is enough.

nemesis has caught up with the muslim world.

decent muslims are welcome in india. but they must first repudiate scum bags like you.
lalitmb
kalundborg, Denmark
Nov 06, 2008 12:00 AM
225
06/11/08

"Situation in India is always worrisome, but one has to maintain hope."

What about the situation of the Hindus in Pakistan, B'desh and Malaysia? Muslims can not practise barbarism when in majority and demand decency when in minority.

True Hindu
Los Angeles, United States
Nov 06, 2008 12:00 AM
226
RAJESH
PHOENIX UNITED STATES

First, you are now throwing up a new concept when you say

"... But affirmative action is about class (caste in India), not individuals. "

My interpretation following you verbatim will be then, "affirmative action" is preferential treatment according to the class an individual belongs to (by birth ?), which mimics the caste system advantages as practiced in India. Thus this discriminates between the classes or castes in Indian terminology - one in favor of the other. I thought that this was precisely what you were complaining about when it goes against the Dalits, whereas what you are implying now is that it will be fine with you as long as the discrimination is in favor of the Dalits ! Why should the Dalits be treated better than other members of the society ? I am not supporting the view that they - or for that matter any other section - should be oppressed as a group. If they have grievances, the state must redress their situation on an individual basis. But anything beyond that completely defies my logic of understanding the norms of level playing with others in the society or fair play. Under no circumstances, I can support that position.

You have not stated your disagreement with my identification of SC in WB with your definition of Dalits. So I assume that you have accepted it. In that case, my arguments given previously, based on the data of the census table referred by you, that Dalits (or SCs) are not oppressed in Bengal hold their validity.

As regards the Bihari Dalits in West Bengal, the responsibility of including them in the national census rests with the officials of the central authorities in Delhi. If they have failed in their duty, I do not see how anybody can blame the successive State Governments for that oversight !

In conclusion, barring the ambiguity of definition of "Dalits" in Bengal, I do not see why I should change my original views expressed in these exchanges.


Pinaki S Ray
Adelaide, Australia
Nov 06, 2008 12:00 AM
227
"oweissi, imam of jama masjid, and then i"

Owessi's grand father was the cause of all the troubles in Hyderabad in 1948 .He patron of Rajakars.

Shahi Imam has already said in Azamgarh that he will create another 1947 .
a k ghai
mumbai, India
Nov 06, 2008 12:00 AM
228
"I don't see the same panic and hopelessness in the posts of others. "

Faruki

I know Muslims as much as I know Hindus . Few persons have this unique oppertunity .Hence my judgement is perhaps --I said perhaps -more nearer to the ground realities in India.I seen partition and caught in Terror Blasts

Please note my words :

1. More and more Hindu groups will now take to arms for revenge.

2.Muslim Human Bombers will soon be a reality in India.We are already facing Fidayeens trained in Pakistan now operating in India.Human Bomber is the next variant of Islamic Terror.

If Allah,God,Parmatma prove me wrong -I will be the blessed one.

I will be also extremely happy if what you say ultimately turns out to be true.However I never loose hope .I too can move out of India and move to safe heavens abroad. But I and my wife have decided to slug it out in India .Better die in India than in foreign lands.

And I don't regret it at all.
a k ghai
mumbai, India
Nov 06, 2008 12:00 AM
229
Hindus are tolerant no doubt but there is limit to it.

Gandhi confused the tolerance of hindus by their cowardice. Hell will have to pay once Hindus get mad.

(1) you preach your religion we have no problme we rather invite you to do. When the chrstian jews and muslims were practicing slavery where vanquished army used to get ensalved we had the tradition of according respect even to the vanquished. So do not lesture us on morality of religious behaviour
(2) More and more the footsy game with terrosim goes on by psec political and media organization more and more hindus will take to arms.
We just can't be expected to butchered and then move on with our lives as nothing happened.

Medn your ways mullas or you will have to pay big time.
Rahul
Delhi, India
Nov 06, 2008 12:00 AM
230
Affrimativbe action accorded to sc/st dalit in my voiew is justified but this OBC one is plain politics.. historically 67% of ruling clan have bene PBC and it was POBC and even today it;s OBC which is at the forefront of exploiting dalit.

IN bihar Laloo prasad yadav's party's ex cabinet minister pissed in his sc/st drivers moouth because he dared to go against him and nothign happened.. he is still mMLA of his party..

King Ashoka Achandaragupta allcame from PBC class so were jaat rulers......
For OCBCs to claim smeohow they were discriminated against is bull when you have all the powers how can anyone discriminate agaisnt you..
Rahul
Delhi, India
Nov 06, 2008 12:00 AM
231
Pinaki Ray,
>> that Dalits (or SCs) are not oppressed in Bengal hold their validity.

If Dalits are not oppressed in W Bengal then they are not Dalits.

There is tendency is assume rise of low caste leaders as indication of casteism. Fact that there is no Dalit leader in Bengal is indicative of lack of assertion among Dalits and oppression by upper castes.
Rajesh
Phoenix, United States
Nov 06, 2008 12:00 AM
232
Gauthier is a great guy, with as Lalit said, no axe to grind. His basic philosophy is "I'm Ok,you're OK". He sees this attitude in Hindus far, far more than in Moslems, or Christians. And because of that, he is pilloried by certain sections of the Indian population. They want him to assert that all Indians are equally good, or equally bad on all issues. If Moslems indulge in terrorism in Kashmir, Mumbai, Varanasi and a dozen other places, then one must balance that fact by pointing out that "Hindus do it too", witness...Malegon, where the SIMI office was bombed. Gauthier doesn't mince words when assigning culpability to mainly Moslems for terrorism and intolerance, and Christians for evangelical, missionary zealotry. And because of this lack of 'balance'- where no balance really exists- he is dismissed as an apologist for the Parivar! Such is the pettiness and shallowness of much of the Indian intelligentsia.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Nov 06, 2008 12:00 AM
233
mr a.k.ghai

i respect you , and i like your views.

you have always stood for compromise, and if you
have changed your mind, then its out of compulsion and not out of spite.

in my case i have skimmed through articles , comments about the koran, the life and teachings of the profet, and the scene across the muslim world.

my ideas on islam predate samuel huntington,
and v.s.naipaul,s book. maybe i express my ideas with too much jet fuel, but i stand by every word i write.

i and my familiy have helped many muslims- but these are humble people, and busy trying to make ends meet. so my adverse views apply only to the dogmatic muslims, who however seem to dominate in their community.

whereas i greatly admire western culture, and life style most muslims are opposed if not directly hostile to it.

i have no meeting grounds with most of the dogmatic muslims, and most people in the west think like i do.

i think that india should change its constitution. its not possible for a unified state to have states run by the commies in bengal and modi in gujerat. neither can or should impose their views on the other.

india is on the verge of a separation between the bjp run states and the secular run states.
this will if it happens give enough room for all
to full fill their hopes and dreams as they seem fit.

all the best-

lalit
lalitmb
kalundborg, Denmark
Nov 06, 2008 12:00 AM
234
Agnivesh asks Hindu religious leaders to condemn terror acts

New Delhi, Nov 06: Claiming that there was enough evidence to prove the involvement of RSS-related organisations in the Malegaon blasts, social activist Swami Agnivesh on Thursday asked Hindu religious leaders to condemn terror incidents as has been done by their Muslim counterparts.

Accusing BJP chief Rajnath Singh and Shiv Sena chief Bal Thackeray of adopting double standards in responding to "militant activities" by people of different faiths, Agnivesh said while they demand immediate hanging of Parliament attack accused Afzal Guru, they have given a "clean chit" to the accused in the Malegaon blasts.

"While scholars and religious leaders in the Muslim community have come forward to speak out against terrorism in their community, those of Hindu faith are yet to speak and condemn such actions," Agnivesh said.

Claiming that the timing of airing of the news of blasts on a news channel coincided with the exact time of the blasts, Agnivesh said it might be seen as a clear evidence of involvement of RSS in the incident.

"The September 29 blast took place at 9.30 pm, which was also the time when the news channel relayed the breaking news about it.

"Being a religious channel, we do not assume it has the kind of network other news channels have. Still it left behind others by broadcasting the news as soon as the blast occurred," Agnivesh alleged, adding it was a pointer to the connection between the RSS and the Malegaon blasts.

Former ABVP leader Sadhvi Pragya Singh Thakur and a retired army officer are among those who were arrested in connection with the Malegaon blasts.

Agnivesh also demanded a CBI probe into the connection between Nanded and Kanpur explosions, where Bajrang Dal workers were killed while allegedly assembling bombs, with the Malegaon blasts.

http://www.zeenews.com/....asp?aid=481408&sid=NAT
Subroto Chatterjee1
Kolkatta, India
Nov 06, 2008 12:00 AM
235
Mr. Guatier: you speak like a hindu fundementalist, Journalist report on matters as they happen, first of all your claim that India has not invaded other countries is false, you should brush up your history (hint ASHoka)that there are gems in Hindu philosophy, this is true, any sane person with marginal education will agree to that, that India has accepted people of all cultures and relegon is also true, using these points to make your point is reduntant, if one uses a line from the end of your article, please do the Math on all the muslims in the world, they too are law abiding... can one call all of them terrorists? the fact remains that there was a muslim invasion, just like there was a dutch, portugese, french and above all a British invasion, but we cannot hark back to the past constantly to explain our present situtation, your article suggests that Muslims today are paying a price for what their ancestors did.you suggest that if your home is invaded and destroyed and no is killed.. it is ok! you also claim that you are politically incorrect, I think you are only incorrect, your comments are simplistic, India's situation viz a viz hindu-muslim relation is bleak. no one should deny the fine attributes of this great way of living, this Hinduism. likewise no hindu, journalist or otherwise should deny the facts, your 25 years of reporting is not enough to explain how I as a muslim have felt in my country India, and oh! I am not a terrorist nor do I subscribe to that Idea. You can never be as sad as I.
Aleya Jung
New York, United States
Nov 06, 2008 12:00 AM
236
Lalit

Owaisi family :

"HYDERABAD : Majlis-e-Ittehadul Muslimeen – Thriving on the ideology of its pre-Independence parent body

Source: SAAG.ORG
by R. Upadhyay

To know further about the Islamist character of the party, we may look into the historical background of its parent body as well as its own contribution towards radicalization of the Muslim society. Like August 9 incident this year, the pre-Independence MIM also came in hot news on this eventful day of Indian History sixty five years back in 1942, when it had opposed ‘Quit India’ movement against the colonial British power and mobilized the Muslims of then Hyderabad State for defending the Islamic rule of Nizam. Founded in 1927 by a group of Islamists of Hyderabad initially as a socio-religious organization, its successive presidents particularly Nawab Bahadur Yar Jung, a religio-political activist and Qasim Rizvi, a militant Islamist gradually turned it into an Islamic fundamentalist, secessionist, communal and a pro-Nizam political party.

For MIM “the ruler throne (Nizam) is the symbol of the political and cultural rights of the Muslim community …. (and) this status must continue for ever”. (Party Politics in Andhra Pradesh by Vadakattu Hanumantha Rao, 1983, Page 163). Under the leadership of Bahadur Yar Jung, the party “proclaimed Muslims as the monarchs of Deccan with Nizam as only the symbolic expression of their political sovereignty. It demanded the creation of an independent Hyderabad to synchronise with the lapse of British paramountcy” (State Government and Politics – Andhra Pradesh by Reddy & Sharma, 1979, page392).

After the death of Bahadur Yar Jung in early forties of the last century, the command of the MIM was taken over by Kasim Razvi, who enrolled a large number of Muslim youths as Razakars to fight against the freedom fighters of Congress, Arya Samaj and Hindu Mahasabha and emerged as “champion of Muslims and protector of a Muslim State”. The militancy of the party however reached to its peak on the eve of independence, when Nizam was virtually put on hold by the MIM and was not allowed to sign the instrument of accession of Hyderabad State with Indian Union. In fact about 150,000 Razakars led by Razvi created a reign of terror against the non-Muslims and forced the Nizam to buy time under the cover of "


http://intellibriefs.bl...muslimeen-thriving.html
a k ghai
mumbai, India
Nov 06, 2008 12:00 AM
237
Lalit-Read on :

"Although Owaisi was an eye witness to all the misdeeds of Razvi, the Islamist element in him did not allow him to be reconciled with the loss of an independent Islamic State. “In 1957 the MIM was revived in Hyderabad and a decade later was petitioning the Government of India for the foundation of a purely Muslim State on India’s eastern coast” (Encyclopaedia of Islam – Lieden E.J.Brill, Vol. V, Page 1081). For over a decade the MIM maintained a low profile and remained a marginal player in the politics of Hyderabad but gradually Owaisi cashed on the hidden anger of Muslim society against the loss of Islamic power in the state. “Majlis played passion politics by trading on hate-Hindu sentiments and cashed on the angry Muslim electorates” (Party Politics in Andhra Pradesh – Hanumantha Rao, 1983, Page 164).

In 1976 Salahuddin Owaisi, a widely traveled barrister son of Abdul Wahed Owaisi took over the presidentship of the party after the death of his father and launched an aggressive campaign for the cause of his community members. Increasingly aligning the party with the fundamentalist ideology of its parent body the Owaisis carried forward the legacy of parent organization, which was “regarded as remarkably aggressive and a violent face of Muslim militancy as it organized the Razakars to defend the independence of this Muslim State with Indian Union”.

There are many more such characters who part of UPA.ANY WONDER WE ARE WHERE WE SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN AND NEED NOT HAVE BEEN ???

If today Muslims of India lament the rise of Hindutava then better they should also check what type of Leaders they allowed to userp Muslim Politics.
a k ghai
mumbai, India
Nov 06, 2008 12:00 AM
238
VARUN SHEKHAR
TORONTO CANADA

Additionally, there is no memory, let alone resentment, of Indian 'invasions' into Southeast Asia. It happened in the very distant past, and it was not massive

Come on, friend! That does not make it any less incorrect.
Of course, right now we are discussing the present scenario and it is undoubtedly fundamentalist Muslims at the center stage.
Azeem Taqi
Nashville, United States
Nov 06, 2008 12:00 AM
239
RAHUL
DELHI INDIA

Thankfully Spanish people drove them back once and for all but we indians could not do that..

Rahul ji, not just this, but history is replete with tens of confrontations between Muslims and Christians trying to impose their faith. Around this time, Spain was Muslim and Turkey Christian and then we had this pivoting which we see today.
A request, friend, I empathize with your feelings but it'll be great if we could all stick to correct language. By God's Grace, everyone on this forum is an educated person and if we too get emotional and spew hatred, how are we going to be examples to those we seek to improve?



Azeem Taqi
Nashville, United States
Nov 06, 2008 12:00 AM
240
Which country Asholka invaded mr illiterate Jungi..

would like to know.. yes hindu kings used to fight among themselves but they never went beyond border of india
Rahul
Delhi, India
Nov 06, 2008 12:00 AM
241
You are not being forced to feel like terorist for past misdeeds it;s present misdeeds mr Jungi.. whenver any terrorist gets caught whole local muslim community throws its rank behind him and refuses to copperate in investigation.. this in my view is the soul reaon why one after another terrorist get away with wrap on their wrist.........

this tendency of the community to identify with likes of sohrabuddin afzalk gurru is the real cause of hindu backlash ....
Rahul
Delhi, India
Nov 07, 2008 12:00 AM
242
aleya jung

i have lived in britain as a student and now in denmark for many years.

i have always thanked danes for what ever they have done for me. i admire their culture, food,
music, sense of humour.

i admire their way of life,sans hypocracy, and
their willingness to help all people in trouble.

old age pensioners give help for various causes
in the world,as do school children.

i make it a point to pay compliments to fellow danes, and this makes a lot of difference for me.

i have along with my wife brought up our two daughters as danes, with full freedom from day one. they are now both married to danish men, and
this ofcource has been a blessing.

danish men take care of the kids, put them to sleep, change their clothes and are helpful
and kind to my two kids, and grand kids.

unless immigrants and minorities are willing to
walk the extra mile, they remain outsiders.

unless people geniunely make an effort to please their neighbours they remain strangers.


there are many in this forum who attack hindus for being intolerant, horrid casteists, bride burners.

i have seldom read a good word said about us.

muslims seldom adopt any hindu custom. my danish family have visited hindu temples, and been charmed with the tilak and flower offerings.. no muslim or christian would do this.


people who converted to islam and christianity
might get heaven unlike us, but certainly they have done little to make friends with us,in this life.

as a modernist ,and an agnostic i am a bit biased against extreme religious people. however
i could get on well with modern christians, muslims or satanic worshippers.

unfortunately muslims and christians are not only dogmatic in their faiths, but many have
a provincial and conservative way of thinking.

one can see how out of place they are not just in modern india, but all other western countries.

i read and hear muslims condemn danes for their free and easy life style, but they accept all the welfare they can get- and seldom say thank you.

we have many muslim groups with strange sounding names, with web sites plastered with verses from the koran, some calling for death for jews and others.

one organisation started by moderate muslims lasted about a few months. the members were maligned,attacked and then they jusy gave up.

this says someting. its just a tiny minority amongst muslims who are moderate and modernists.

the majority have still a mindset from the middle ages.

best wishes to you

lalit
lalitmb
kalundborg, Denmark
Nov 07, 2008 12:00 AM
243
This article could have ben written by a person who has no knowledge of what is ahppening in the ground. Is he kidding when he says that nobody was killed during the Babri Majid riots? What was the provocation for the well engineered and orchestrated riots in Mangalore recently or the terror unleasehd on the tribal Christians in Orissa by the fanatic criminal gangs? It is really very frustrating not to get a balanced view recognizing the humane and inclusive Hinduism of overwhelming number of Hindus while at the same time acknowledging that there is a small segment of fanatic elements (who violate all the tenets of inclusive Hinduism)who perpetrate atrocities which rank on par wth the Islamic terror and cruelty.
H. M. Siddhanti
Richmond, United States
Nov 07, 2008 12:00 AM
244
So it is Ok if a northen Hindu king ataacks a southern Hindu kingdom (or vice varsa) and kills, plunders, etc. since he is doing it within the borders of "India". Strange logic! (Of course, the military conquests of Tamils in southeast Asia and Sri Lanka should be conveniently forgotten). History of the maurading Marathas after their defeat where even the riches in the temple were looted is alos OK. (There are ballads about these raids in eastern and southern parts of the country). And by the way, Indian Muslim kings also attacked only the other Indian Muslim or Hindu kings.
H. M. Siddhanti
Richmond, United States
Nov 07, 2008 12:00 AM
245
Francois Gautier in his Opinion, The Hindu Rate of Wrath, attempted to sum up historical and contemporary aspect of the Hindu psyche. Mahatma’s cowards now more than a billion, happily or unhappily follow their destiny, individually. And, because they are not a unified billion, it does not really matter who leads. It is only here in India that minority, be it the invaders, thugs, ideological groups, or simply visitors like Francois Gautier himself, enjoys gains and privileges at a time only to be submerged in the ultimate whirlpool of Indian individualism.

However, Gautier’s suggestion that “…the BJP, instead of acting embarrassed, should not disown those who choose other means…” is uncalled for and against the spirit of peaceful coexistence. BJP is not a social organization catering to its members. It should instead engage in creating legislation to curb communal violence and to defeat home grown terrorism. But, then, after all it is Gautier’s individual opinion.
P. Paul
Kartarpur, India
Nov 07, 2008 12:00 AM
246
No, it's not "OK" if a northern kingdom attacks a southern kingdom. It's not okay if a village attacks a neighbouring village. War and conquest are not intrinsically good things. However, one has to distinguish between the nature or character of one type of conquest and 'invasion', and another. The wars waged between Indian kingdoms were not geared toward permanent conquest, conversion( from religion or sect), imposition of language, destruction of native/local cultures, customs and script, massive destruction and vandalism of religious and secular buildings, and permanent settlement.The vast majority of wars fought between Hindu kings were in the nature of jousting tournaments, a sport of kings, an outlet for testerone-filled youth. The wars as such were also( almost by defintion) more humane, with less abject cruelty.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Nov 07, 2008 12:00 AM
247
Azeem Taqi, I hope no one here is justifying or glorifying invasion and conquest- I know for sure I am not! But yes, if there is hardly a memory of hordes of invaders and moreover, atrocities committed by those invaders, that certainly counts for something! If there are any modern Malaysians, Indonesians and Burmese who have studied these ( reputed) Indian 'invasions' and come to the conclusion that many atrocities accompanied those incursions, let's hear about them. I( and I'm sure many Indians/persons of Indian origin) would be very happy to apologize to,or commiserate with the modern SE Asians, for any sense of violation they feel because of those historical events.
The problem with Moslems is that they go in the exact opposite direction in glorifying and idolozing mass murderers and vandals from the past such as Mahmud of Ghazni, Mohammed of Ghor etc.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Nov 07, 2008 12:00 AM
248
Lalit, that was so well taken, about the Danes being impressed by Hindu temples. In contrast to the stand-offishness of Indian Christians and Moslems on this matter.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Nov 07, 2008 12:00 AM
249
Varun,

>> The problem with Moslems is that they go in the exact opposite direction in glorifying and idolozing mass murderers and vandals from the past.

But you glorify Godse, Modi, Bajrangibabu, Vanzara, and now the new idol Sadhvi! You are quite right to denounce Ghori and Gaznavi, but then you want all Muslims to denounce them too. Some Muslims may, others may not. That's how the cookie crumbles! Get used to it.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Nov 07, 2008 12:00 AM
250
Lalit,

>> i admire gautier.

I fully expect you to! That's why I call you an empty-headed bigot.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Nov 07, 2008 12:00 AM
251
Ghai,

>> Please note my words.

When you denounce Muslim terrorism, I agree with you. When you say Muslim community could stop it, I do not agree. When you say Muslim terrorism will have dire repercussions, I agree with you. But Hindu terrorist organizations such as Abhinav Bharat and Bajrangdal are not just reactions to Muslim terrorism. They have their own agenda which is even more nefarious than anything we can think of. When you say that pursuing Hindu terrorists and prosecuting Sadhvi will make things worse, you may be right but condoning lawlessness for political reasons is far more dangerous. You are falling in the same trap that the Congress has fallen into over the Afzal affair. Congress seems to feel that executing Afzal will have serious repercussions in Kashmir, but converting his sentence to life imprisonment will give a powerful tool to the BJP in the next election. So they have decided to do nothing. A government has to act according to what it considers to be right and lawful and take the consequences.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Nov 07, 2008 12:00 AM
252
>> Which country Asholka invaded.

Kalinga.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Nov 07, 2008 12:00 AM
253
faruki

from a cost benefit view point, muslims in india
are a burden.

there is no other community with so many greviences, so many demands, and which does so little for itself ,leave alone for others.

to cap it, prominent muslims like omar abdullah says in parliament that he is a muslim first.
the same says oweissi in hyderabad.

we know the extreme views, dogmatic and fanatical
muslims have. political correctness over years ,
has meant that no one speaks about it.

we all pretend hindu, muslim bhai bhai-not true.

you are day in and day out demoniseing sawarker,
gowalkar- whom most young hindus have never heard of.

not a word against jinnah, who threatened the country with disaster if india was not partitioned.

cut out the hypocracy- muslims and hindus have tried to live togather before partition, and now
60 years after partition. its been a disaster.

why dont you just give up. you have chosen to live in the usa, away from your muslim community, and you dont regret it for a moment.
thats my guess.

why are you so interested in both communities liveing togather,when there is so much hostility on both sides.

muslims should be encouraged and helped to build
modern muslim areas, cities, towns where they can follow their religion,and tradition.

we wont bug you, and dont bug us.

if there are hindus who want a muslim experience they can live in azamgarh.

muslims like wise can move to hindu haridwar, new delhi if they so wish,

the artificial and failed relationship between the two communities has been a disaster.

look at cyprus, timor, lebenon,bosnia, spain. all over the two communities no longer live togather.obama refused to meet muslim americans.
now what would you call him- a bigot, hate merchant, or just some one with biased views.
lalitmb
kalundborg, Denmark
Nov 07, 2008 12:00 AM
254
faruki

lots of people admire gautier, samuel huntington, salman rushdie, naipaul,robert spencer,sam harris, melanie phillips mdr sultan,ayan hirsi ali.

all bigots.

also the pope. he is a ex nazi as you claimed.
lalitmb
kalundborg, Denmark
Nov 07, 2008 12:00 AM
255
Lalit,

You will do everyone in this forum a favor if you get proper psychiatric treatment.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Nov 07, 2008 12:00 AM
256
" But Hindu terrorist organizations such as Abhinav Bharat and Bajrangdal are not just reactions to Muslim terrorism. They have their own agenda which is even more nefarious than anything we can think of. When you say that pursuing Hindu terrorists and prosecuting Sadhvi will make things worse, you may be right but condoning lawlessness for political reasons is far more dangerous.'

Can't condone any terror from any Race.Infact that is my compain that we condone terror wrt our religeonists.

I have said that no Muslim is posting about Islamic terror and vice versa.

Sadvi's terror -I feel that is a counter reaction.So say all commentators.
a k ghai
mumbai, India
Nov 07, 2008 12:00 AM
257
Where did Bajrang dal came into picture Sadhvi is member of Abhinav bharat or we should buy that since abhinav bharat has been found reacting to the violent ways of jihadist with violence so all hindu organizations are violent..

Please keep your judgement in check till we find anyone from bajrang dal blowing bombs in any public place.. so far we have none other than rhetoric..

Yes if found guilty dadhvi must face law abhinav bharat must be banned.. I hope sthg good comes out of this after this there should be no quarter given to jihadist in name of secularism u know the action like afxal guru being protected must stop.. soharabuddin being shown as a victim must stop..

And muslim community must stop throwing ranks with these suspects and cooperate in investigation as of today they make every terrorist a hero.......

Rahul
Delhi, India
Nov 07, 2008 12:00 AM
258
>> Which country Asholka invaded.

Kalinga.


ANWAR PATEL
DALLAS TX UNITED STATES

Mororn anwar patel again speakth.. Kalinga was a part of India moron it;s orisa hindu kigs used to fight all the time amongst themselves..

Question was which country Ashokla attacked where he had sword in one hand and Geeta in another......
Sick people like you have exposed your real nefarious design by saying kalinga because u believe india is not one countyr..

If I ask same idiots why did muhamamdattacked pagans and occupied their land their place of woprship suddenly I am an extremist..
Rahul
Delhi, India
Nov 07, 2008 12:00 AM
259
Well, after all the enquiry, the BJP Govt. in Karnataka is not yet able to identify who distributed the pamphlets the blasphemed against our Hindu Gods. In the light of the Malegaon blasts and how the Fanatic organizataions are planning blasts to blame it on Muslims, it will not be surprising if the pamphlet in Mangalore was the handiwork of such criminal fanatic groups. Judging from the orchestrated violence in Mangalore (which was anyhting but spontneous), this whole episode seems to be pre-planned. And regarding the brutal killing of the Swamiji in Orissa, Have not the Maoists been implicated in that?
H. M. Siddhanti
Richmond, United States
Nov 07, 2008 12:00 AM
260
But you glorify Godse, Modi, Bajrangibabu, Vanzara, and now the new idol Sadhvi! You are quite right to denounce Ghori and Gaznavi, but then you want all Muslims to denounce them too. Some Muslims may, others may not. That's how the cookie crumbles! Get used to it.


ANWAR PATEL
DALLAS TX UNITED STATES

Anwar patel do u have gumption to call muhd teroprist because that;s what he was going by his war mongering.. if u can;t then u have no right to attack sadhvi or anybody else......

Muhd killed meccans took their property their place of worship so call that guy terrorist I will accept sadhvi as terroist too..

You deify the bloodthirst persons like muhamamd but expect others who respondedto his or hsi follwoers sword to be framed as terrorist
Rahul
Delhi, India
Nov 07, 2008 12:00 AM
261
Muslims call these massmuders either prophet or Ghazi.. beginning from khalid Bin walid ( muhd's main hitman) they have churned one after another mass murderer under direct or indirect aegsi of original terrorist muhammad.

watch these youtube videos where a pakistan clonw is talking about ghazis.....

Even their socalled sufi saint was war-monger.. Khwaza Moinuddin chishti invited Ghori to attack India and when Ghori was losing he taught them a secret which was to attackrajputs in wee houors because they have scriptural sanction not to fight in that epriod.. this sort of devilish character is saint in their religion.. hindus should stop visitign that clown Chishti's mazaar..


Similarly in bahraich Ghazi masood.. son of Muhd Ghazni was killed when he attacked india with 1lakh soldiers.. this one time all indian kings united and asked him to go back he refused saying it is his right to propagate islam then battle insued where each and every solider of masood was killed along with masood. Today if u go to Bahraich you will find a mazaar for this mar-monger masood and muslims worship him as Ghazi meaning god's
warrior..
www.youtube.com/results?search_query=
yeh+ghazi+episode+1&search_sort=video_date_uploade
d&page=5
Rahul
Delhi, India
Nov 07, 2008 12:00 AM
262
Muslims call these massmuders either prophet or Ghazi.. beginning from khalid Bin walid ( muhd's main hitman) they have churned one after another mass murderer under direct or indirect aegsi of original terrorist muhammad.

watch these youtube videos where a pakistan clonw is talking about ghazis.....

Even their socalled sufi saint was war-monger.. Khwaza Moinuddin chishti invited Ghori to attack India and when Ghori was losing he taught them a secret which was to attackrajputs in wee houors because they have scriptural sanction not to fight in that epriod.. this sort of devilish character is saint in their religion.. hindus should stop visitign that clown Chishti's mazaar..


Similarly in bahraich Ghazi masood.. son of Muhd Ghazni was killed when he attacked india with 1lakh soldiers.. this one time all indian kings united and asked him to go back he refused saying it is his right to propagate islam then battle insued where each and every solider of masood was killed along with masood. Today if u go to Bahraich you will find a mazaar for this mar-monger masood and muslims worship him as Ghazi meaning god's
warrior..
www.youtube.com/results?search_query=
yeh+ghazi+episode+1&search_sort=video_date_uploade
d&page=5
Rahul
Delhi, India
Nov 07, 2008 12:00 AM
263
Muslims call these massmuders either prophet or Ghazi.. beginning from khalid Bin walid ( muhd's main hitman) they have churned one after another mass murderer under direct or indirect aegsi of original terrorist muhammad.

watch these youtube videos where a pakistan clonw is talking about ghazis.....

Even their socalled sufi saint was war-monger.. Khwaza Moinuddin chishti invited Ghori to attack India and when Ghori was losing he taught them a secret which was to attackrajputs in wee houors because they have scriptural sanction not to fight in that epriod.. this sort of devilish character is saint in their religion.. hindus should stop visitign that clown Chishti's mazaar..


Similarly in bahraich Ghazi masood.. son of Muhd Ghazni was killed when he attacked india with 1lakh soldiers.. this one time all indian kings united and asked him to go back he refused saying it is his right to propagate islam then battle insued where each and every solider of masood was killed along with masood. Today if u go to Bahraich you will find a mazaar for this mar-monger masood and muslims worship him as Ghazi meaning god's
warrior..
www.youtube.com/results?search_query=
yeh+ghazi+episode+1&search_sort=video_date_uploade
d&page=5
Rahul
Delhi, India
Nov 08, 2008 12:00 AM
264
>> Kalinga was a part of India.

What an idiot! The subcontinent was not a country but a collection of various kingdoms. About 100,000 people were killed in Ashok's war.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Nov 08, 2008 12:00 AM
265
No idiot there always used to be one oSamrat and little kingdom with relative sovereignty.. go check on with historical facts .. whoever was strongest used to have that Samrat status..

Now try again had any hindu ruler unlike muhaam and his terrorist ghazi gone anywhere in any other country with sword in one hand and geeta in another..

Rahul
Delhi, India
Nov 08, 2008 12:00 AM
266
Had any hindu guru isnitigated war ewhile alive or dead like muhd did in case of constantinopole by promising the ghazi terrosit murderer heaven if they conquer constantinpole no matter what the human cost.. why should such a war monger be accorded any respect
Rahul
Delhi, India
Nov 08, 2008 12:00 AM
267
>> there always used to be one Samrat and little kingdom with relative sovereignty.

You were an ignoramus to start with, but your shakha has made you a liar too!
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Nov 08, 2008 12:00 AM
268
Mororn Patel speakth again.. You are a liar and not to mentiona terrosit liek muhd worshipper..

Prithvi raj Chauhan was accepted as samrat no doubt therre were small eatates one Jaychand was opposed to it but these used to far and few exceptions..

mind you there was no rule this or that will be smarat it used to change hands depnding on who has more firepower.......

Just ask yourslef a question you moron why did all hindu kings assembled togetehr to defeat the blood-thirsty ghazi named masood Ghazni after all he was parked in Bahraich no threat to someone for instance in orisa..

Face the fact

India was one since time immemorial with little kingdoms and one powerful thread who used to go by name samrat....

I know yoour medresah have taught you that indian was million countries and it was those blood thirsty jerks of muhd who brought i under one umbrella but it's a fiction..
Rahul
Delhi, India
Nov 08, 2008 12:00 AM
269
BTW mr moron patel when will you condemn muhd for killing pagans in mecca and occupying their place of worship.. When will you call him what he was that is terrorist.
Rahul
Delhi, India
Nov 08, 2008 12:00 AM
270
>> muhd did in case of constantinopole by promising the ghazi terrosit murderer heaven if they conquer.

What a liar! Your shakha teaches nothing but lies. Muhammed never conquered Constantinople. It was conquered by Sultan Mehemed several hundred years after Muhammed died. Imagine how much hate and how many lies are dished out by RSS shakhas on a daily basis throughout India. With the spread of so much hate, what is going to happen to our country?
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Nov 08, 2008 12:00 AM
271
"What an idiot! The subcontinent was not a country but a collection of various kingdom"
Kalinga was considered to be part of the "country". The idea of present day India is there even in the Mahabaratha. For exampl,e it describes the yatra of Arjuna who goes North-South and East-west. He passes thro' various kingdoms but he was crisscrossing a single country.
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Nov 08, 2008 12:00 AM
272
Nobody said muhd conquered constantipole youo moron don;t try to change topic.. muhd promised heaven to any muslim marauder who conquers constantinpole .. thereby instigating 500 years of war even when he was long gone.. anyoen calling this guy peaceful needs to see psychiatrist......



Rahul
Delhi, India
Nov 08, 2008 12:00 AM
273
Anwar patel has been taught in medersaha thereby that BS about small states.. Since time fo mahabharata there used to be samrat to which everyone else was subservient at the same time enjoyign partial sovereingnty.. who would be that samrat in those days used to be decided by Ashwamedh yagya.. later on it took the form of war of hegemony but there was always one samrat above the rest ..

Again I will ask that question to this moron anwar patel when did any hindu king ventured outside india with sword in one hand and geeta in another like muhd and his army......
Rahul
Delhi, India
Nov 08, 2008 12:00 AM
274
Ganesan,

>> Kalinga was considered to be part of the "country".

Good of you to put "country" in between quote signs! So if the king of Magadha attacks Kalinga, it is not a war? Are you going to compare it to American Civil war? The countries of European Union did fight many wars with each other in the past. Were they not wars between countries? Aren't people stretching facts a bit to promote their mendacious theories.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Nov 08, 2008 12:00 AM
275
>> muhd promised heaven to any muslim marauder who conquers constantinpole .

Totally false! Better change your shakha! You are not only becoming a worse liar, you are also becoming a lot more hateful.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Nov 08, 2008 12:00 AM
276
>> when did any hindu king ventured outside india.

Ganesan already answered this question a few days ago. But you will forever remain an ignoramus and a hate pracharak.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Nov 08, 2008 12:00 AM
277
08/11/08

"Ganesan already answered this question a few days ago. But you will.........."

RH has already replied Ganesan saying that Chola kings invaded only to eliminate the muslim jihadi prates in SE Asia and they were not for religious expansionism. Mohammed went around killing non muslims with sword in one hand and the Book in the other and slaughtered millions in the process.
Arjun
Los Angeles, United States
Nov 08, 2008 12:00 AM
278
Would Francois Gautier honestly tell the world that money plays a role in conversion? Where is the record? He has filed the fictional story based on hearsay. He should read Oct.27 issue of Outlook-I, The Convert, written by Anand Mahadevan and other testimonies that have the answers.

Fracois Gautier must check facts before spreading canards to join Hindu outfits like RSS,Bajrang Dal and VHP in orchestrating violence on Christians.

Sadly, he fancies coward Hindu terrorists arrested in connection with a bomb blast by his tacit support and not equating with Muslim terrorists.


His biased conviction can do more harm for Christian missionaries and NGOs who sacrifice their lives for uplifting the poor tribals and villagers who do not get basic facilities like drinking water,healthcare,education,employment etc without asking for something in return.

G.Johnson Manickaraj
Chennai, India
Nov 08, 2008 12:00 AM
279
manickraj

we get water 24 hours of the day, like wise
power.

i dont have to change my religion for that.

organisations like oxfam, greenpeace, medicine sans fronteirre all work without preaching religion.

your mail shows a simplistic mind.

christianity may or may not do good.

but christians like you are no longer indians.
the conversion has taken care of that.

most christians today would welcome british rule, and failing that then sonia amma.

thats why i oppose conversions. it means converting hindus into non indians, with political problems. chinese govt has the same view point.
lalitmb
kalundborg, Denmark
Nov 09, 2008 12:00 AM
280
I agree with most of the things Gautier says, except where he says ordinary Hindus, with no planning, are responsible for Gujarat 2002, Kandhamal, Mangalore and Malegaon. It is an insult to the members of that great community to attribute these horrendous events, in particular te first two, to ordinary Hindus. In fact, ordinary Hindus tried to come to the rescue of their brothers and sisters in trouble.

Gautier is trying to create a divide in our country by claiming that terrorists belong only to one community and the victims are only Hindus. I would advise him to stop being a spokesman for Hindu fundamentalists and propogate their agenda.

I would request Mr. Gautier to investigate the militant training college which is said to be behind the Malegaon blasts and tell us the TRUTH.
N. J. Thomas
Noida, India
Nov 10, 2008 12:00 AM
281
Thank you very much for sharing your opinion based on your experience. Country also called "Hindustan" where Hindus are getting deprived of there rights & religion. And portrayed in a wrong way. Temple collection are considered Government property.
And all other religion are given MINORITY pass. GOOD JOB Media & Politicians. You should travel far Eastern region of country will see Hindu tribal converted into Christianity. Why?? We all know answer.



Mrs S Dubey
Seattle, United States
Nov 11, 2008 12:00 AM
282
The starting point/assumption of the article is wrong.

Gautier claims that everyone is equating Hindus with Terrorists. Which is clearly rubbish. Like it is rubbish to paint every Moslem as such.

No one is painting Hindus in general with a single brush of terror. No one looks at every Hindu in terror, nor do security persons do a double-check on Hindus.

Any act of violence against an individual or community is either a crime or an act of terror, no matter what be the reason.

Collective (mob) action doesn’t necessary mean the issue is correct, and any educated law-abiding person knows that.

Just because no one dies, it doesn’t make it okay to burn churches and demolish centuries old structures.

Terrorism is more about spreading fear and hatred, which is what such acts do.

Hence what these mobs have indulged in are crimes and acts of terror. Similar to mobs chasing people of another region out of their state, similar to mobs vandalising artists shows, similar to mobs parading village girls naked for speaking to boys of other castes, albeit being Hindus.

Likewise Gautier doesn’t know the Mahatma’s values or understand his actions.

The Mahatma said protest peacefully, not violently.
The Mahatma asked people burn their own western clothes, not that of others.
And so on...

Gautier’s piece does nothing for the Hindu cause, which is strong, correctly righteous and doesn’t need his endorsement.

His opinion only serves the purpose of the misguided and illegal acts of few rotten individuals, who thrive under the garb of religion.
SanitySpeak
New Delhi, India
Nov 11, 2008 12:00 AM
283
Madam Francois, First of all I would like to thank and congrajulate you for this frank, informative, educative article.Being a Hindu, I was literally in tears after reading the article.
Manjunath
Bangalore, India
Nov 11, 2008 12:00 AM
284
sanityspeak

the mahatma was an eccentris, rediculous figure.

he was admired by hindus- no member of the other
communities gave a tuppence for him.

jinnah was cold and disdainful.

ofcource the muslims like him. he has been a loyal friend all his life to them, though they never listened to him.

i for one feel that the mahatma was a exaggerated phenomena.

we should have had a more modern,rational and progressive leader.but india does not produce leaders like roosevelt, de gaulle or churchill.

just wimps. look at the latest example.

poor old mms, who mumbles, with his innane smiles, and cant decide a thing.
lalitmb
kalundborg, Denmark
Nov 11, 2008 12:00 AM
285
Lalit, well said about Christianity and the Mahatma. Yes, that is a major concern about conversions, that it creates, in effect non-Indians, people who cannot or will not identify with a) the majority people of India and b) the pre-Christian( pre-Moslem) history of India, which is very rich.
As far as the Mahatama goes, that it true that hardly anyone gives a hoot about him, though many Hindus respect him, rightly. The Moslems don't- and they showed it in 1947. Non-Indians use his name as a way of badgering India for things like having missiles, a nuclear programme and for resisting Kashmir's violent separatism. Not for any intrinsic liking of Gandhi.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Nov 11, 2008 12:00 AM
286
N.J Thomas, are you prepared to say that all Christians are not exactly exemplary, either? It's all well and good to remark that some Hindus may be violent, but what about your missionaries and worse, your evangelists? They are not exactly going around respecting Hindus and Hinduism!
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Nov 11, 2008 12:00 AM
287
varun

i believe an honest poll needs to be made about the views of various communities.

their prefereces and dislikes.

their view on gender equality, their attitude to
animals- to india, america.

i believe it will remove a lot of cob webs from
our minds.
lalitmb
kalundborg, Denmark
Nov 12, 2008 12:00 AM
288
It is indeed sad that Monsieur Gautier, hailing from a great and tolerant land - the birthplace of a great social revolution, and the very nation which was the first to elect a Jew as a prime minister, that too at a time when European hatred for Judaism was at its peak- has taken such a sectarian and narrow-minded view of a vibrant and multi-ethnic country like India. I trust that he does not speak for other Frenchmen. His article reads too much like Sangh Parivaar propaganda, and is wholly unexpected from the pen of a French journalist who has reported for 25 years in India. If he needs any evidence of Hindu fanaticism - resulting not only in destruction of property, but also of life - it would do him good just to look back at that grim evening of 30th January 1948, and realize that it was a 'Hindu' terrorist, no different from the likes of Sadhvi Pragya, who inflicted the profoundest shame and sorrow a newly-born nation had yet known, or was ever to know.

M. Gautier must realize that the moment an individual becomes a fundamentalist, a fanatic, a militant or a terrorist, he ceases to be a Hindu, a Muslim, a Christian, or even an Indian for that matter. Terms like 'Hindu fundamentalist' or 'Islamic militant', are, in my opinion, oxymoronic, and serve only to deepen the communal divide. Therefore, the question of a Hindu fundamentalist being more or less harmful than an Islamic terrorist, is not worth debating. Both are equally anti-national, and must unequivocally be condemned and eliminated to preserve the integrity of our nation.

The average Indian Muslim is as peace loving and tolerant as the average Indian Hindu, and if India has survived as a secular entity for so long, it is not because of the 'Hindu ethos and spirituality' that Gautier is talking about, but the Indian ethos and Indian spirit, which he has completely failed to identify in his 25 years in the subcontinent. He must cast his sectarian blinkers off and look at India from the realistic and not propagandist viewpoint - the largest Hindu population on earth co-habiting with the third largest Muslim population, within the framework of a fully-functional democratic and secular polity, without ever having taken recourse to any of the extreme and repressive forms of government that our two immediate 'Islamic' and 'Hindu' neighbours (read Pakistan and Nepal) are conversant with, a country whose presidential mansion has been occupied by both Hindus and Muslims, the only country in the world where Id and Diwali are both national holidays, a country that is the largest democracy this world has ever seen! That is the true wonder of India, Francois Gautier and his hate-filled journalism notwithstanding!

Fundamentalists are fundamentalists. Please do not confuse them with Hindus, Muslims or even Indians.

Jai Hind!


Sourav Sengupta.
Sourav Sengupta
Durgapur, India
Nov 12, 2008 12:00 AM
289
Sengupta, Gauthier is a rarity- a non-Indian who press correspondent who likes Hindus and the Hindu ethos, and moreover, who refuses to demonize the Sangh Parivar, just it is fashionable in certain circles in India: the fake Hindu liberal, the pseudo-secular and the communist. Gauthier sees the "Sangh" as serving a caluable and necessary role.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Nov 12, 2008 12:00 AM
290
Varun,

>> Gauthier is a rarity- a non-Indian press correspondent who likes Hindus and the Hindu ethos.

Hindus and Hindu ethos are fine by themselves and do not need any pats on the back from chamchas like Gautier. He not only lies but tells others to lie too. Prior to Prime Minister Vajpayee's visit to Washington, he wrote to Western reporters asking them to go easy on both the Gujarat massacres and the persecution of Christians!
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Nov 12, 2008 12:00 AM
291
Are you implying then, that the other wonderful non-Indian correspondents, tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth? What about execrable types like Barbara Crossette, Edward Gargan, Pamela Constable, Gavin Rabinovitz, Mark Fineman, Bryan Johnson, Peter Goodspeed( the latter 2 Canadian)? What brilliant, incisive, witty, eloquent and balanced coverage did they bring to India when they wrote about the country? Absolutely none! The cipher! Gauthier has written some real heartfelt, eloquent articles and columns about India, including one imploring Indians to remember the holocaust on India's soil conducted by invaders. What other writer has done that?
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Nov 13, 2008 12:00 AM
292
Varun,

>> Are you implying then, that the other wonderful non-Indian correspondents, tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth?

Hardly the point.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Nov 13, 2008 12:00 AM
293
Well, my point is this: Gauthier is one of the few who writes with some eloquence and awareness of history; he is also quite brave to take a contrarian position i.e that it is Hindus who have been wronged and on the receiving end, but that most people are loath to admit it. He also comes out strongly in favour of keeping Kashmir in India, as opposed to the wishy-washy stuff the others churn out: "India, which is predominantly Hindu controls 2/3 of Kashmir; Pakistan which is predominantly Moslem, the other 3rd. India accuses Pakistan...Pakistan denies, provides only moral support yada, yada, yada, yada!
India is fortunate to have Francois take up cudgels on its behalf. Let's appreciate him for that, instead of running him down in the name of 'secularism'. Just because it is fashionable and oh so intellectual.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Nov 13, 2008 12:00 AM
294
Varun,

>> Let's appreciate him for that.

He is an anti-Muslim propagandist who was doing the rounds of India with an Aurangzeb Exhibit that he had created (which was shut down because of protests). He admitted that he had some exhibits showing Aurangzeb in good light, but could not exhibit them because of lack of space! If he wants to curry favors with the sangh by offending the feelings of 15% of Indians, he is not good for India. Except perhaps in the minds of those who have a sectarian view of India.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Nov 13, 2008 12:00 AM
295
13th November 2008

Dear Friends

This refers to the write-up on THE HINDU RATE OF WRATH by the french journalist FRANCOIS GAUTIER along with my own commentary.

I fully agree with most of the points mentioned by the experienced journalist. I agree with him -that Hinduism, as old as humanity, has the culture and religion followed by a billion Hindus all over the world who accept all other relgions more gracefully; that the history tells us that Hindus have suffered most in the hands of invaders and aggressive fanatics of other religions and that Hindus, following their philosophy of karma and spritualism, tend to become pacifist.

However, I do not agree with the conclusions drawn by the learned journalist out of the recent incident of arrest of Sadhvi Pragya Singh Thakur and others. First, It is the bad journalism where the journalists have given the name 'Hindu terrorism'. Terrorists have no religion, cast, country or faith. These self-appointed protectors of any sect, religion or views are only terrorists. Second, if few terrorists come from the same religion/community we tend to blame all the people of the same religion/community. When the sikh security soldiers of Indira Gandhi shot dead the Prime Minister, it was wrong to blame all Sikhs for the act of few individuals. Pulling down of Babri Masjid was as bad as riots following the incident. Neither conversion of Hindus to Christianity should be accepted, nor attack by Bajrang Dal on Christians be condoned. Gadhodra incident was as shameful as burning of a railway bogey by Muslims. Third, In the modern world and the civil society, violence by few people can not be justified who may claim to be aggrieved. 'Tit for Tat' attitude will only lead to anarchy.

This tendency to prove one's point through terrorism is misguided. Political opportunists take the maximum advantage of such incidents. We have seen the Shiv sena people using violence for the cause of Maharashtrians. We have seen Jats, schedule casts, farmers, not to talk of Naxalites, Bodos, resorting to violence. Terrorism is not a solution to any of the problems one may have. I feel that any person, whatever may be his political or religious standing should be punished for a terrorist act without fear or favour.

My text should not be read as calling Sadhvi Pragya or Dayanand as terrorists. I support that they should be questioned or investigated if there is a reasonable information that they have been supporters of terrorist activities. Punish them if proven guilty. Do not support it as a counter-act of Muslim terrorists. Say loudly that terrorism is bad and must be stopped.

Raj Bhatia
Raj Bhatia
DLF, Gurgaon, India
Nov 13, 2008 12:00 AM
296
He's not out to 'curry favour' with the Sangh; this is his own hearfelt perception of the reality. If some of his views merge with those organisations, that's his perogative. As for Aurangazeb, Pakistan is the only country that glorifies him; most sensible people see him as a fanatical tyrant.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Nov 14, 2008 12:00 AM
297
Varun,

>> He's not out to 'curry favour' with the Sangh.

Everything about him suggests otherwise. I have posted more than four posts in this segment to support what I say.

>> As for Aurangazeb, Pakistan is the only country that glorifies him; most sensible people see him as a fanatical tyrant.

Again, that was not the point.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Nov 14, 2008 12:00 AM
298
That doesn't make sense, given his background, and what he himself says about how his perceptions came about. "Currying favour" implies that he is thinking 'Hmmmm, what can I do or say that will please the Sangh" Gauthier has ideas of India some of which happen to be shared with the 'Sangh', by accident, not by design.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Nov 14, 2008 12:00 AM
299
>> Gauthier has ideas of India some of which happen to be shared with the 'Sangh', by accident, not by design.

As far as I am concerned, he is a sycophant. He can create divisions between Hindus and Muslims, but we are the ones who have to live together.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Nov 14, 2008 12:00 AM
300
faruki

we have to live togather.

not willingly, but despite that.

and with no love lost.

accept facts, and get out of your make belief world.

in fact i welcome the most harsh views.
we have to face reality, and that consists of some very hateful people on both sides.

your angry abuse and taunts dont make it easier
to be in this forum. it would be awful to have guys like you in the neighbourhood.

lalitmb
kalundborg, Denmark
Nov 15, 2008 12:00 AM
301
Lalit,

>>>> we have to live togather.
>> not willingly.

Nobody would want to live with a hateful neanderthal like you. But one has to, if one has the misfortune of having you as a neighbor.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Nov 15, 2008 12:00 AM
302
Faruki

No one would sell or rent you a house in my
neighbourhood.

But you could try your luck in little Pakistan,
little Somalia in Copenhagen.

The area where the Somalians live is now called Mogadishu.
lalitmb
kalundborg, Denmark
Nov 15, 2008 12:00 AM
303
Stopperbhai,

>> Regarding your false campaign that for a Muslim its impossible to get an accommodation in a predominantly Hindu area.

Ask a Muslim who is looking for a house in a nice suburb. Two of my friends managed to find houses in nice areas. Both those houses were set on fire, and they had to run for their lives.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Nov 15, 2008 12:00 AM
304
Hello,
This is in reference to your article on 'The Hindu Rate of Wrath', 10 Nov 2008.

I have heard your name before or as in french we say 'ça me dit quelque chose'. But reading your article I wonder how you became famous with your biased writing and insipid journalism. It was like reading 'Samna' of Thackeray.

So, I should give you some correction. You say ordinary angry Hindu burning Christians without killing them.
You forgot the incident in Orissa where an Australian priest and his two sons were burnt alived by your friends Bajrang Dal? The mob was led by Dara Sing.
The nuns are raped and the christians are killed and you give deaf ears?
SIMI is as much as terrorist as Bajrang Dal or other Hindu groups who have the same agenda of terror.
No muslim was killed after math of Babri Masjid? There was riot all over India. Every time when kar sevak went there, muslms were killed.
You are advocating Gujarat and Malegaon. It is shame. Any way you are pampered by Hindu extremists in India.
I think you have problem with 'les arabes et les noirs'.
It isn't terror?
You know LTTE in Sri Lanka? Aren't they Hindu?
After the murder of Indira Gandhi, who came on the road to kill the Sikhs? There were 3 lakhs Sikhs killed, You love 'chiffres' non. Hindus were victims, Hindus are victims as much as people from other communities.
Reading your article gave me an idea of your dangerous ideology and I am thankful to Outlook to publish all this nonsense so that I can know who is writing for the good.

Pity that in India you have always the place as we have bunch of fools to let you in and do work.
We are first Indians (not from the patriotic or nationalistic view) and we want peace.
Zakhmi Majaz
Göteborg, Sweden
Nov 15, 2008 12:00 AM
305
Hello,
This is in reference to your article on 'The Hindu Rate of Wrath', 10 Nov 2008.

I have heard your name before or as in french we say 'ça me dit quelque chose'. But reading your article I wonder how you became famous with your biased writing and insipid journalism. It was like reading 'Samna' of Thackeray.

So, I should give you some correction. You say ordinary angry Hindu burning Christians without killing them.
You forgot the incident in Orissa where an Australian priest and his two sons were burnt alived by your friends Bajrang Dal? The mob was led by Dara Sing.
The nuns are raped and the christians are killed and you give deaf ears?
SIMI is as much as terrorist as Bajrang Dal or other Hindu groups who have the same agenda of terror.
No muslim was killed after math of Babri Masjid? There was riot all over India. Every time when kar sevak went there, muslms were killed.
You are advocating Gujarat and Malegaon. It is shame. Any way you are pampered by Hindu extremists in India.
I think you have problem with 'les arabes et les noirs'.
It isn't terror?
You know LTTE in Sri Lanka? Aren't they Hindu?
After the murder of Indira Gandhi, who came on the road to kill the Sikhs? There were 3 lakhs Sikhs killed, You love 'chiffres' non. Hindus were victims, Hindus are victims as much as people from other communities.
Reading your article gave me an idea of your dangerous ideology and I am thankful to Outlook to publish all this nonsense so that I can know who is writing for the good.

Pity that in India you have always the place as we have bunch of fools to let you in and do work.
We are first Indians (not from the patriotic or nationalistic view) and we want peace.
Zakhmi Majaz
Göteborg, Sweden
Nov 18, 2008 12:00 AM
306
Actually, all these people are very public converts to Hinduism. For example, Dr. Frank Morales is also known as Sri Dharma Pravartaka Acharya, and is the Acharya of a Hindu temple in the U.S. There are millions of converts to Hinduism outside India!
Hemant Rasgulla
Delhi, Central African Republic
Nov 19, 2008 12:00 AM
307
i completely agree with the author. The sudden rush of adrenaline within congress against terrorism is just a poll gimick. Shame on them ? Are they Indians ? Atleast unite together in crisis ? thats a basic courtesy you can show to people who elect you. Arresting a muslim for blast is non secular and they are wrongly framed, The Batla encouter is fake .. shame on all you congress and alies.. shame on you.. you are the most unfit of the lot. how can you face the publc ? really thick skinned...
Mahesh
Bangalore, India
Nov 23, 2008 12:00 AM
308
I do agree till a point where the congress maybe pulling its sleeves to latch on the Muslim votes by getting the Sadhvi. But why was BJP not as vocal about ill-treatment of Muslim youth?

But sir, we can never be so sure if they are not terrorists. So, we must let the investigations finish, and in turn the truth shall only prevail.

Why is this being called Hindu terror? Well sir, I am no supporter of Muslim Extremism, but when some muslims did it, we called it Jihadi terror. If hindu right wing has been inching towards violence, it is not unfair to to target muslims alone.

There is no reason that A colonel of the intelligence corps can't be involved in such a thing if his links to extremists are made clear. These people have specialised knowledge about such things. Radical Hinduism is nothing new, its just not a global phenomenon as it's concentrated in India.

Sir, Our culture has seen a evolution for the better. We have become more diverse with time. Our secular ethos are unfallable, it is because of this that we survive and forget the misdeeds of a few. We all know a Modi does not represent Hindus, same as no Maulana Masoud represents Muslims! Saying we have this culture owing to Hindus is grossly wrong. Hindus have been dominant but not the only one. We have had great periods of Buddhist, Jain and Islamic influence in our history. All ahve contributed to making the country the most cultured and deep rooted in history. A quagmire of things!


Regards,

Abhik sen
abhik sen
Delhi, India
Dec 03, 2008 12:00 AM
309
The article shows no respect for facts while building on the pernicious thesis that no Hindu can be a terrorist. What is the basis of this thesis? Let me restate Gautier's core point:-

Gautier's thesis is that when some Hindus "erupt in uncontrolled fury" and destroy property, kill and rape, or bomb ordinary people (as this happened "in Gujarat ... Jammu , then in Kandhamal, Mangalore, and Malegaon" -- quoting Gauitier's own listing of heroics by some Hindus!), then according to Francois Gautier, "It isn't terror".

Let me list just a few of the blatant falsehoods that Gautier cynically deploys in order to establish the above immoral and barbaric thesis:-

a) He suggests that "the Indian and western press" equates "terrorist groups like SIMI, which blow up innocent civilians, with ordinary, angry Hindus who burn churches without killing anybody".

Can Gautier (or any one else on his behalf) quote ANY news items that equates terrorists (of any community) with "Hindus who burn churches without killing anybody"? Gautier is being positively unethical when he makes this false suggestion about an undefinable entity such as "the Indian and western press"....

b) Gautier pontificates, "What should be understood is that this is a spontaneous revolution on the ground, by ordinary Hindus, without any planning from the political leadership"

What is the basis of this claim that seeks to absolve political leadership (no doubt, of the BJP)? If the "revolution" is indeed morally justified, then why should there be no OPEN political support for this from those who believe that this is morally acceptable?

It is dishonest to whip up hate and hysteria -- and then seek to absolve the political parties that are openly involved in talking about "minority appeasement", "pseudo-secularism", "conversions" and so on. These morally depraved chaps want to use the "dalits and tribals" (as named by Gautier) as cannon fodder, while taking care to hide themselves from the legal consequences of criminal activities.

c) Gautier suggests that journalists "often" describe the destruction of Babri Masjid as "more horrible" than "the 'vengeance' bombings of 1993 in Bombay".

Can Gautier (or any one else on his behalf) quote ANY journalist (or Congressman or any politician from the left, or any one else) who has described the two events in the manner as suggested by Gautier?

(In this very article, Gauiter himself seeks to provide moral justification for "vengeance bombings" by angry Hindus in Malegaon! The ATS may not be so sure ... but Francois seems to have no doubt that the Malegaon bombings were done by "ordinary Hindus"!)
Anand
Chennai, India
Jan 12, 2009 12:00 AM
310
Francois Gautier in his Opinion, The Hindu Rate of Wrath, attempted to sum up historical and contemporary aspect of the Hindu psyche. Mahatma’s cowards now more than a billion, happily or unhappily follow their destiny, individually. And, because they are not a unified billion, it does not really matter who leads. It is only here in India that minority, be it the invaders, thugs, ideological groups, or simply visitors like Francois Gautier himself, enjoys gains and privileges at a time only to be submerged in the ultimate whirlpool of Indian individualism.

However, Gautier’s suggestion that “…the BJP, instead of acting embarrassed, should not disown those who choose other means…” is uncalled for and against the spirit of peaceful coexistence. BJP is not a social organization catering to its members' needs. It should instead engage in creating legislation to curb communal violence and to defeat home grown terrorism. But, then, after all it is Gautier’s individual opinion.
P. Paul
Kartarpur, India
Jan 27, 2009 12:00 AM
311
This is a great article.We have been slaughtered and been pushed to poverty...read India has over 200 million people who cannot have 1 full meal a day and 60 million child labourers....Imagine the same india was once the richest country in the world.Since this is a hindu majority country other communities are able to live in peace, if it was a muslim majority or any other communities majority, hindus would have been torchered and even made to run away.Our politicians will sell the country one day to outsiders....What happened to the lives of our freedom fighters.....and soldiers.....??? is it gone waste....We need freedom from bureaucracy and political dictators.
Madhusudan
Hyderabad, India
Jan 31, 2009 12:00 AM
312
There is a lot of bias in this article. I think that to ensure that this is not just a random explosion of a unique & tantalizing possibility thought out of the author's mind, every article must be linked to a detailed thesis work represnting that article only, which explains each point of view expressed. If that takes too much time then the author should not bother to write the article... or maybe publish it as fiction.

The criminal point of this article is to invoke the BJP. The could have easily called upon all the Indian representatives. This is nothing less than setting off a dynamite among the Indian populace. I stop here before expressing any further.

This article would not be read and leveraged by as many of the "angelic Hindu" the author describes as it would be by those who are "not Hindu enough" and the gap beween the two would be more than vast.

This article is not a must-read or it-takes-a-Frenchman-to-write-this. It is just-another-point-of-view-with-a-careless(or cunning?)-bottomline.
GD
Mumbai, India
Jan 31, 2009 12:00 AM
313
A cogitative retrospection, though BJP part is provocative.
dip
Dhaka, Bangladesh
May 09, 2009 12:00 AM
314
I love this article. And so true. I think the media and anthropologists should really base a study on this!
devendra
Mumbai, India
COLLAPSE COMMENTS   
Post a Comment
You are not logged in, please log in or register
ABOUT US | CONTACT US | SUBSCRIBE | ADVERTISING RATES | COPYRIGHT & DISCLAIMER | COMMENTS POLICY