opinion
India: A Massacre Justified By Philanthropy?
For all our denial and bluster on Kashmir, the Indian state's secular narcissism may not survive a Modi on the throne
biased indian state
Why is the Indian State quick to nail minority offences but myopic to Sangh transgressions?
Saba Naqvi
media bias
A naive, populist media leads the state in baying for terrorist blood
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bajrang dal
Just who is a terrorist? Definitions change when it comes to the Hindutva extreme.
Smita Gupta
Outlook-GfK Mode Opinion Poll
Interviews conducted in Delhi, Bombay, Calcutta, Hyderabad, Lucknow with 516 respondents on September 23 and 24

For decades now, Kashmir has hosted a bloody stalemate, in which a powerful nation-state repeatedly tries, and fails, to impose its will on a small unyielding population. The Indian state uses political means (elections, special privileges) and financial inducements as well as military force to convince Kashmiris that they should not dream of self-determination. Still, Kashmiri defiance and harsh Indian retaliation exact a terrible human toll: tens of thousands killed, innumerable many disabled, tortured, orphaned and widowed. There is hardly a family in the Valley left untouched by the biggest military occupation in the world.

People in mass democracies are usually slow to recognise the nature of the undeclared wars conducted by their representatives. But by the late 1960s there was hardly a public figure in the United States—from J.K. Galbraith to Philip Roth—who did not feel compelled to build up a chorus of denunciation against their country's deeply dishonourable involvement in Indochina. In comparison, the deaths, in less than two decades, of nearly 80,000 people in Kashmir have barely registered in the Indian liberal conscience.

"I cannot imagine," Pratap Bhanu Mehta wrote last month, "what it is to live like under half a million troops." Until very recently, such honest confessions of a moral impasse were rare not only in an increasingly corporatised media, which is as defiantly ignorant as it is nationalistic, but also among the people most likely to initiate national introspection on Kashmir—the impressively numerous writers and intellectuals who by training and temperament are secular and liberal.

A few Indian commentators did deplore, consistently and eloquently, India's record of rigged elections and atrocity in the Valley, even if they spoke mainly in terms of defusing rather than heeding Kashmiri aspirations. But many more tended to become nervous at the mention of disaffection in the Kashmir Valley. "I am not taking up that thorny question here," Amartya Sen writes in a footnote devoted to Kashmir in The Argumentative Indian. In the more resonant context of a book titled Identity and Violence, Sen yet again relegates the subject to a footnote.

It is not easy for me to point to these acts of omission. Most Indian liberals have fought with admirable courage the good and necessary war to prevent Hindutva from damaging India's multicultural ethos, and their commitment to justice for the poor and defenceless in Indian society cannot be faulted. They are right to suspect Pakistan of malicious intent in the Valley, and to fear that the four million Kashmiri Muslims demanding azadi expose 150 million Indian Muslims even further to the BJP-VHP's bigotry.

But it makes progressively less sense why many Indian liberals should not make nuanced distinctions between Kashmiri and Indian Muslims; why they should help the fanatics of Hindutva hold Indian Muslims hostage by refusing to publicly uphold Kashmiri rights to a life of dignity.

A commonplace secular-nationalist argument is that Kashmiri Muslims, if given the slightest concessions by India, would go radically Islamist or embrace Pakistan, emboldening separatists in the Northeast.

 
 
The Kashmiris are not alone in failing to detect generosity in a state that tortures Muslims, ignores the killing of Christians, organises mercenary armies against tribals.
 
 
But it has never been clear that radical Islam has a sustainable appeal in Kashmir. The Kashmiri feeling for Pakistan, too, is highly capricious, almost entirely fuelled by hatred of the Indian military occupation.

For years the overtly Islamic and violent aspect of the insurgency in the Valley kept many secular Indian liberals from visibly sympathising with the plight of Kashmiri Muslims: if only the Kashmiris, I often heard, had organised a Gandhian-style political campaign. In recent weeks the Kashmiris have repeatedly staged massive non-violent protests, provoking such establishment figures as Vir Sanghvi and Swaminathan A. Aiyar into an exasperated reckoning of Kashmir's cost to India. But Arundhati Roy's frank analysis of the collapse of Indian legitimacy in the Valley is still rare enough to profoundly unsettle many liberal assumptions.

The commonest secularist response consists of fierce denial and bluster. Kanti Bajpai avers that since the Indian state has not committed genocide in Kashmir, the Kashmiri demand for freedom is groundless—surely by this legalistic logic Gandhi and Nehru had no right to ask the British to quit India? G. Parthasarathy at least has the hawkish virtue of clarity when he implores India to follow Russia's example in Chechnya and strike Kashmir with an 'iron fist'.

What's much more disturbing, however, is when Harish Khare of The Hindu accuses separatists and the isi of stirring up trouble in the Valley and urges the government to use force to underscore "New Delhi's will and capacity to stay put in Kashmir". Ritually denouncing the BJP, Khare also exhorts us to a "renewed fundamentalist faith in the idea of secular India".

Indeed, more than one liberal commentator reacting to the mass upsurge in Kashmir piously invoked the 'idea of India'. This solemn liturgy makes it seem that the 'idea of India', like the 'American dream', is divinely ordained to bring happiness to anyone who subscribes to it, as though electoral democracy in a poor, multicultural country isn't an ongoing experiment, one of the most utopian and arduous in modern history, and as such subject to rigorous scrutiny and pragmatic revision—an experiment that is, harsh though this may sound, prone to periodic malfunction, even failure.

The Indian liberal's perennial defensiveness on the question of Indian Muslims has trapped him into a rigid fealty to the 'idea of India'—or what is really an exaggerated faith in the Indian state's ability to maintain India's secular identity in Kashmir. It is true that the original conception of the Indian state contained many redemptive notions of cultural plurality, and social and economic justice. But whatever prelapsarian integrity the Indian state under Nehru may have had (Kashmiris have their own views on this), it now appears to have been deeply compromised; and if our secularist narcissism managed to survive two state-supported pogroms in 1984 and 2002, one of them by an avowedly secular political party, it is likely to be shattered by the enthronement of Narendra Modi as India's prime minister.

During two decades of vicious anti-Muslim campaigns and terrorist retaliation, the Sangh parivar has not only given Indian nationalism a hard majoritarian cast; it has also infected India's state and civil society with its illiberalism. Certainly, Kashmiri Muslims, who feel assaulted with an iron fist by both Hindutva-wadis and secularists, cannot be blamed for failing to spot the fine distinctions between the idea of India and the idea of Akhand Bharat.

The Kashmiris are hardly alone in failing to detect wisdom and generosity in a state that detains and tortures Muslims on the flimsiest of charges, ignores the killing of Christians, organises mercenary armies against tribals and Maoists, and helps big businessmen to fleece small farmers and uproot the landless.

Secular fundamentalists may continue to venerate the state, hoping, against all available evidence, that it would preserve the idea of secular India in Kashmir (and the Northeast, another region where faith in the idea of India needs to be propped up by the Indian state's brutality). But in their revulsion from the inevitably 'communal' politics of Kashmiri Muslims they will find themselves standing with the most virulent Islamophobes among Hindu fundamentalists.

This proximity can't be written off as an unfortunate accident of history. Fundamentalism in the cause of secular ideals has proved even more noxious than its religious counterpart, as the 20th century's extraordinary ideological violence reminds us. The secular fundamentalists, who are determined to nail their cherished 'idea of India' into Kashmiri hearts and minds, seem to forget the many political leaders and intellectuals who rationalised totalitarian brutality and imperialist wars by pointing to the garishly virtuous nature of their secular ideologies (nation-building, economic prosperity, freedom, democracy). The spectacle of American liberal intellectuals cheerleading the war for 'human rights' in Iraq has more recently underscored the grotesque irony of what Albert Camus called 'massacres justified by philanthropy'.

Camus knew that a secular ideology of progress, which tries to validate state violence by positing noble-sounding but purely abstract ends, had replaced traditional religion in the world-conquering nations of the West, one which, as he wrote, 'can be used for anything, even for transforming murderers into judges'.

Having arrived late in the history of the nation-state, we are probably fated to replicate some of the West's ideology-fuelled disasters. The fundamentalist cult of the 'idea of India' has already demonstrated its murderous potential in Kashmir. Is it too late to unshackle the 'idea of India' from a repressive Indian state and its callous elite? This is certainly necessary—for the sake of democracy and pluralism in India as well as in Kashmir. Such revisions in the political and moral imagining of nations are never easy. But until they are made, the 'idea of India' will increasingly risk becoming yet another one of recent history's many beautiful abstractions stained with blood.


(Pankaj Mishra frequently writes essays on politics and literature for Outlook, Guardian and New York Times.)

biased indian state
Why is the Indian State quick to nail minority offences but myopic to Sangh transgressions?
Saba Naqvi
media bias
A naive, populist media leads the state in baying for terrorist blood
Saba Naqvi
bajrang dal
Just who is a terrorist? Definitions change when it comes to the Hindutva extreme.
Smita Gupta
Outlook-GfK Mode Opinion Poll
Interviews conducted in Delhi, Bombay, Calcutta, Hyderabad, Lucknow with 516 respondents on September 23 and 24
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COLLAPSE COMMENTS :
HAVE YOUR SAY
Sep 27, 2008 12:00 AM
1
Pankaj Mishra is an agent of ISI - Pakistan. His views should not be taken seriously since he is a foreign agent. He is an enemy of the Indian people and should not be allowed to enter India. He once argued on the pages of the New York Times that the Indian military was responsible for the killing of 39 sikhs in Kashmir border area an outrageous and patent lie. Outlook should ban ISI terrorist agent Pankaj Mishra from writing for the magazine.
Dr.G.N.Seetharam
Melbourne, Australia
Sep 27, 2008 12:00 AM
2
i believe that india should withdraw from the
kashmir valley. thats their wish.

how about muslims withdrawing from some states
of india, as per the wishes of hindus.

as soon as this demand is made people like the author will call it a hindutwa conspiracey.

a extreme danish political party are asking fo muslims to be expelled from europe. i think that
there should be a poll, just as there is a poll in kashmir.

whats sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

i am sure europeans will pay full costs of relocation and maybe more. muslim countries have
a lot of empty spaces.and lots of oil money.
lalitmb
kalundborg, Denmark
Sep 27, 2008 12:00 AM
3
"But whatever prelapsarian integrity the Indian state under Nehru may have had (Kashmiris have their own views on this), it now appears to have been deeply compromised; and if our secularist narcissism managed to survive two state-supported pogroms in 1984 and 2002, one of them by an avowedly secular political party, it is likely to be shattered by the enthronement of Narendra Modi as India’s prime minister." Pankaj Mishra

Pankaj needs to research and reflect on Islamic Texts and Tenets that preach permanent warfare against infidel Hindus. Please explain the reasons for the massacre and forced EVICTION of Kashmiri Pundits, of Hindus in Bangla Desh and their near extinction in Pakistan.

Why the partitional genocide? Why the unending Islamic terror against Hindus since the Sindh genocides of 712?
Satya
Meru, India
Sep 27, 2008 12:00 AM
4
Pankaj:
Indeed many atrocities in Kashmir valley have taken place. However, they were not committed by India but by Pak-inspired Islamists & Jihadists who killed tens of thousands of Hindus and Sikhs in the region since 1989 (over 65,000 by some estimates) and drove out over 350,000 Kashmir Hindus & Sikhs into exile, who had no other choice after thousands of them were tortured and maimed; and thousands of Kashmiri Hindu women and young girls were molested and forcibly converted to Islam. Unlike these lawless crusaders of the civilizational war the Indian army is under strict discipline and any civilian casualties in combating the jihadists in all probability have to be nothing but collateral as in Iraq.
Earlier on August 22, 08 in their letter full of fabrications addressed to you, the Kashmiri American Council and other US based Islamist organizations grossly distorted and misrepresented the facts. They alleged: a) the Indian Govt. had attempted to confiscate 100 acres of Kashmiri territory for setting up Indian settlements; b) the recently unearthed 4600 gruesome mass graves were of Muslims; and, c) Indian authorities had inhumanly closed the main highways into occupied Kashmir, Pathankot-Jammu and Jammu-Srinagar, to starve Muslims. These allegations are groundless and were cooked up to gain the support of the world body.
As the agreement on the Amarnath land issue, between the Muslim dominated J&K Govt. and the legitimate Hindu protestors on religious freedom shows, these were deliberate lies and distortions meant to encourage separatism and Jihadist terrorism across India for expanding the civilizational war. Both the J&K and Indian Governments have strongly denied and contradicted these vicious lies. The unconfirmed discovery of 4600 graves must be those of Hindus whose lives were taken through the oft repeated massacres, night raids and torture chambers operated by Islamists. As pointed out earlier, Hindus have been killed by the thousands and additional hundred of thousands of them were driven out of Kashmir since 1989-90. This is the story of continuous atrocities, jihad and reign of terror against Hindus & Sikhs of Kashmir in an attempt to eliminate "kafirs" (infidels) for establishing the so-called "Nizam-e-Mustafa".
A review of the Islamic atrocities over the last decades and during Islamic Rule in India is essential to understand the motivation of Islamists to get UN support in their goal of Islamizing and Talibanizing Kashmir and India: 1) In J&K State Hindu Institutions are being destroyed at an unprecedented Scale:
Politically motivated Muslim protests led by the PDP (Peoples Democratic Party, actually a fundamentalist formation) to deny 100 acres of barren land for setting up temporary shelters for Hindu pilgrims transiting to Amarnath shrine during summer months is a recent example of the Taliban like intolerance demonstrated by the Muslim controlled Govt. in Kashmir.

Satya
Meru, India
Sep 27, 2008 12:00 AM
5
Pankaj Mishra is a literary hack who has made his carrier out of slandering Hindus. His hatred for Hindus/India is surpassed only by his love for Islamists and his tendency to be economical with truth. Pankaj Mishra is male, and equally
detestable, counterpart of Arundhati Roy.
J
Bangalore, India
Sep 27, 2008 12:00 AM
6
A Broad summary of instances of atrocities and injustices inflicted upon Hindus by the Muslims in India:
a) Genocide of 80 million+ Hindus by some estimates during 700 years of cruel Islamic tyranny including the killing fields of the Hindu Kush - the worst in the history of mankind, and demolition, vandalizing and looting of tens of thousands of temples and conversion to mosques;
b) Muslims massacred some 20,000 people in Calcutta in August 1946 in three days to force Congress to accept partition against Mahatma Gandhi's declaration of "Partition over my dead body";
c) Massacre of millions Hindus and Sikhs during the partition in 1947;
d) Over three million, mostly Hindus, were massacred in East Pakistan, now Bangladesh, and the exodus of some 9 million Bangladeshi Hindus to India as refugees in early 1970's, when the Indian army had to intervene to rescue the populace;
e) These self styled Islamist victims have expelled, exterminated and ethnically cleansed the entire Hindu and Sikh populations from Kashmir region since 1989;
f) The recent incessant terrorist Jihadist attacks in various parts of India have cost hundreds of lives.
g) Forcible conversion of millions of Hindus to Islam was conducted in India. In fact 98 % of Muslims in India are a converted lot. A particular note should be taken of the fact that there was not a single Muslim in India prior to 711 AD.
h) The Muslim occupiers imposed Jaziya (penalty tax) on Hindus for not becoming Muslims.
i) Thirty million Bangladeshi Muslims have illegally infiltrated into India thereby stressing India's economy, civil society and posing a security threat.
j) The ethnic cleansing of Hindus & Sikhs in Pakistan where they are now less than one percent reduced from over 25 percent at the time of partition in 1947. In Bangladesh where the non-Muslims used to be more than 30% their numbers have been reduced to less than 8 percent from over 30 percent at the time of partition.
Regrettably the justice minded UN, despite its charter and mandates, not to speak of any sympathetic action, did not have a word of sympathy for the Hindus during this massive ethnic cleansing of historic proportions. Doesn't a billion plus Hindu population of the world have any significance for the UN ?
hindu
Varanasi, India
Sep 27, 2008 12:00 AM
7
The hard core Muslims represented by the US based Islamist Kashmiri organizations seem to believe that they must live by the Islamic trilogy consisting of the Koran, Hadith and Sira, which are considered to constitute the complete way of life for them. Tragically such a way of life is in direct conflict with democracy, secularism and freedom to practice one's own religion. Therefore, the prospects of their coexistence and harmony with other religionists are rather bleak. The failure of the global community to understand their inability and incapacity in coexisting with members of other religious formations could prove extremely dangerous, costly and unhealthy for the world order. We firmly believe in human rights and religious freedom for all. But as would be clear from the above presented evidence the Islamists themselves with their indoctrinated mind, militant and terrorist behavior and holier than thou attitude, pose primary threat to peace, order and the global system. By falsifying facts and making noise at the top of their voice at conspicuous places for attracting the attention of the world body and media, they are trying to choke off the voice of those who have tremendously suffered due to Islamist inflicted injustice and violence. They have also adopted this trickery for making the world forget the crimes committed by them against the unsuspecting Hindus and Sikhs in Kashmir. Articles from the likes of Arundhati Roy, Pankaj Mishra, Outlook etc and demonstrations by Islamists, militants, terrorists and jihadists who under the cover of different organizations are attempting to promote the agenda of the Al Qaeda and attract the sympathy and support of the world for its realization. If they are really interested in resolving the Kashmir dispute they should be asked to help in:
a) Vacating the aggression and occupation by Pakistan of at least 1/5th of J&K territory;
b) Recovering thousands of square miles of J&K territory ceded to China by Pakistan to gain support against India;
c) Rehabilitating Hindus & Sikhs in Kashmir in their autonomous region under their own authority
d) Returning all the Hindu-Sikh properties illegally occupied by the Islamists after the ethnic cleansing in Kashmir;
e) Building and re-establishing almost 500 Hindu temples vandalized, desecrated, looted and burnt by the Islamists in Kashmir region;
f) Investigating the causes of ethnic cleansing resulting in Hindu-Sikh exodus and punishing terrorists who engaged in massacres of non-Muslim minorities.
g converting ALL Mosques into multi-faith centres,

i Finally, by having the demographic balance of Hindus and Muslims, in India, as it existed in 1947 since India a separate Pakistan was genocidally created for Muslims
hindu
Varanasi, India
Sep 27, 2008 12:00 AM
8
Dear Pankaj:

Please study & investogate the gory details of Islamic atrocities against Hindus, since 712. Please read and reread the following posts & PLEASE RESPOND
hindu
Varanasi, India
Sep 27, 2008 12:00 AM
9
The Islamic fundamentalist conspiracy against Hindus received unqualified support from the Pan Islamic Movement and from across the border. Here are some of the glaring examples that defy and shred into a million pieces the tall claims made by the Muslim leaders of Kashmir about their dedication and adherence to nationalism, multiculturalism, secularism, Kashmiriyat and religious freedom.

In 1967, Shivala temple, Chotta Nazar, Srinagar was desecrated. Again in 1984 Shri Hanuman temple at Hari Singh High Street was damaged and in the same year Arya Samaj temple of Wazir Bagh, Srinagar was burnt down.

Some statistics that prove as to how unfairly Jammu, the province of the state with Hindu majority, is treated by the Muslim dominated Govt. may be seen in the attachment B.

3) Temples desecrated, damaged and/or shut down in Kashmir from 1990 to December 1992

1. DASHNAMI AKHARA, SRINAGAR
2. GANPATYAR TEMPLE
3. RAGHUNATH MANDIR, SRINAGAR
4. SHIVA TEMPLE , JAWAHAR NAGAR, SRINAGAR
5. HANUMAN MANDIR, SRINAGAR
6. SHIVA TEMPLE , BARBAR SHAH, SRINAGAR
7. JAI DEVI TEMPLE , BIJBEHARA
8. VIJESHWAR TEMPLE , BIJBEHARA
9. SHIVA MANDIR, BIJBEHARA
10. RAGHUNATH TEMPLE , ANANTNAG
11. GAUTAM NAG TEMPLE , ANANTNAG
12. THREE TEMPLES OF LUKHBHAVAN, LARKIPURA, ANANTNAG
13. WANPOH MANDIR, ANANTNAG
14. SHAILPUTRI TEMPLE , BARAMULLA
15. DAYALGAM MANDIR, ANANTNAG
16. BHAIRAVANATH MANDIR, BARAMULLA
17. BHAIRAVANATH MANDIR, SOPORE
18. RUPABHAVANI MANDIR, VASAKURA
19. KHIRBHAVANI MANDIR, GANDERBAL
20. SHIVA TEMPLE , GANDERBAL
21. MATTAN TEMPLE , ANANTNAG

There have been reports of further destruction of some 39 temples in Kashmir after December 6, 1992 for which FIR were filed. Please note that FIRs on all destruction cases were not filed with the authorities in view of the complicity of the administration and warnings of retaliation against the complainants by the Islamic terrorists.

These examples represent only a fraction of the systematic mass destruction of thousands of temples in J&K after independence of India when the Islamists assumed the total and unfettered control of the state.

4) Relentless Acts of Islamic terrorism in India:

hindu
Varanasi, India
Sep 27, 2008 12:00 AM
10
Dear Pankaj:

If you have any journalistic integrity, please respond to the following posts
hindu
Varanasi, India
Sep 27, 2008 12:00 AM
11
Here goes the predictable Mr. Mishra again! After reading Mr. Mishra's repeated "writings" in NYT, Guardian and this magazine, it's hard to take him seriously but it is the misfortune of our country that he is taken seriously in certain quarters. Other, more learned commentators have already outlined why India the state cannot simply walk away from Kashmir.
Anyways, even Modi bashing is surely subject to the law of diminishing returns?
sudhi
mysore, india
Sep 27, 2008 12:00 AM
12
there are about 12 articles in this edition.

6 in favour of muslims, and 6 against the hindus.

so sun and wind -as one says in denmark-has been equally devided-

muslims are fatwaed if they are too close to hindus. hindus are demonised if they dont tow
the politically correct line.

lets not expect this line to change.

to the secularists i would say.

if hindu india goes down, so will you be.
i hope the secular hindu girls,women are shared between the taliban.

meanwhile i think i will give up on india. i have
bought myself a bag of crisps and a bottle of red wine. india deserves whatever it gets-courtesy mms, shivraj, pranab, arjun singh, oscar
fernandes,laloo,paswan.

with these guys on board,india does not have a chance.


now saba lets read more sob stories about the wronged muslims and christians.

as a hindu-nonpracticeing- i feel safer and more respected in denmark then in india.
lalitmb
kalundborg, Denmark
Sep 27, 2008 12:00 AM
13
I think exactly due to those appeasements these guys keep acting like spoilt brat.. Just imagine as long as they keep harping they know indian govt will keep subsidizing everythign in kashmir.. You won;t believe but if u enter kashmir u wud feel u are in different world as far as inflation is cocnerned.. everythign is cheap..
soln is to abolish that special status of kashmir and throw its door open for all indians
Rahul
Delhi, India
Sep 27, 2008 12:00 AM
14
Pankaj Mishra has been ranting and raving about Indian atrocitities in Kashmir for more than a decade now. In 2000 in response to an article he wrote in the NY Review of Books, I asked him a simple question:In response to Death in Kashmir (September 21, 2000)

To the Editors:

Pankaj Mishra's articles on Kashmir ["Death in Kashmir," NYR, September 21, 2000; and "The Birth of a Nation," NYR, October 5, 2000] tend to overlook one of the greatest tragedies that has befallen independent India. While his efforts to highlight the plight of the Muslim majority of Kashmir are to be appreciated, he conveniently ignores an important aspect of this issue: the Kashmiri Hindus. The selective killing of Hindus by the Muslim militants prompted, according to his own estimate, more than 130,000 Hindus (who are in a minority in the state of Kashmir) to flee the valley. Never before in independent India have such a large number of its citizens been driven from their homes permanently because they belonged to a different religion and yet the plight of nearly a quarter-million refugees merits but a footnote in the writings of Pankaj Mishra. When the Pakistani army let loose a reign of terror in Bangladesh in 1971, nearly ten million Bangladeshis crossed over to India. The number of refugees is directly proportional to the degree of victimization. If the atrocities perpetrated by the Indian army on the Kashmiri Muslims are so widespread and gruesome as Pankaj Mishra claims, then why are the Muslims not fleeing the valley? Why are not refugees pouring into Pakistan?

He never answered that question because he had none and would unceremoniously deflate this bubble of pesecution that he writes about.
Vivek Gumaste
New York, USA
Sep 27, 2008 12:00 AM
15
Like all the rest of the pseudo-secularists, this lumpen cretin never once mentioned the millions of Kashmiri Hindus either killed or driven from their ancestral homeland by these Islamo-fascist criminals. Such is the fetid crap that passes for the Indian intelligentsia. Now you know why he so admires that other pseudo-secularist Commie hypocrite- Arundhati Roy, India-bashing daughter of one of India's biggest Commie traitors, who openly and unashemedly welcomed the Chinese Communist invasion of India in '62.
Bodh
Springfield, United States
Sep 27, 2008 12:00 AM
16
Dear Mr Mishra, next time please take pain to mention the plight of Kashmiri pundits caused by as called "The Gandhians of Kashmir".
prashant
nantong, China
Sep 27, 2008 12:00 AM
17
Before the OUTLOOK publishes any articles by Mr. Pankaj Mishra, it will be in the interest of OUTLOOK's journalistic integrity to ask him to respond to various mails from your correspondents 'Hindu' and 'Satya'.
gypsycapt
Los Angeles, United States
Sep 27, 2008 12:00 AM
18
Do yor remember the Kashmiri Pandits, Pankaj Misra ?
jaleel
luknow, India
Sep 27, 2008 12:00 AM
19
Couldn't find one word 'Pandit' in this entire sober rattle; may be Hindus are less than human beings need to be mentioned for the right reasons! Misra must be a foot soldier of some UK based White'ass licking liberal getting money for bending his back to Sheiks from Arabia. Not such a difficult job preaching for separation, getting millions and sitting thousands of miles away from the battle ground.
Ram
Kerela, India
Sep 28, 2008 12:00 AM
20

on 20 March 2000, a few hours before United States President Bill Clinton arrived on his first official visit to India, 38 Sikh villagers were massacred in the village of Chattisinghpura, in the Indian State of Jammu & Kashmir. The killers wore Indian army fatigues. Mishra visited the village hours after the massacre, and later produced a report that was carried by several Indian and international papers. In the report, Mishra amplified Pakistani claims that the Indian army had killed the villagers in an attempt to win U.S. sympathy for the Indian stance on Kashmir. A later report carried by the British newspaper, The Guardian in July 2002 focused on the allegations of possible abduction and brutal murder by the Indian army of "innocent Kashmiri Muslim civilians" shortly after the massacre.
jaleel
luknow, India
Sep 28, 2008 12:00 AM
21


on 20 March 2000, a few hours before United States President Bill Clinton arrived on his first official visit to India, 38 Sikh villagers were massacred in the village of Chattisinghpura, in the Indian State of Jammu & Kashmir. The killers wore Indian army fatigues. Mishra visited the village hours after the massacre, and later produced a report that was carried by several Indian and international papers. In the report, Mishra amplified Pakistani claims that the Indian army had killed the villagers in an attempt to win U.S. sympathy for the Indian stance on Kashmir. A later report carried by the British newspaper, The Guardian in July 2002 focused on the allegations of possible abduction and brutal murder by the Indian army of "innocent Kashmiri Muslim civilians" shortly after the massacre.

It has now been established beyond doubt that the acts were perpetrated by the Islamic terrorist group Lashkar-e-Toiba, based on the confession of a member of the terrorist group

jaleel
luknow, India
Sep 28, 2008 12:00 AM
22
jaleel
luknow, India
Sep 28, 2008 12:00 AM
23
Idea of India, new?? What about the rest of the world who knew India as one cultural entity throughout history? What about Alexander? Herodetus? Also, what about Ashoka, the Mughals? They considered the landmass of India as one entity culturally. There are obvious differences across different regions in India however, there is underlying cultural similarity as well that is noth there with people outside ths subcontinent.
I understand that it is easier to make a career outside India if you go negative on India. Keep it up! Other than intellectual prostitution, you could make good money by other equally noble means.
By the way, what is so special about Kashmir that we should let some people living in that region declare independence? Would you support my quest of declaring my farm in rural India an independent country? W have a well, can grow our own food and can survive on candles. All the inhabitants there (all 7 of us) will vote for the independence and maybe do a Gandhain protest as well. This raises an interesting question, where do you stop drawing boundaries? Think about it you might take the first step towards being a real intellectual. Using fancy words and clever language to steer clear of the real issues is no substitue for a good logical argument grounded in reality.
Siddharth
Houston, USA
Sep 28, 2008 12:00 AM
24
One more great gem from Mishraji ...

http://www.guardian.co....07/dec/08/religion.race


"Liberal" Mishraji was so angry with Ayaan Hirsi Ali. Probably he is angry with Taslima Nasreen also, angry with Salman Rushdie also.

Mishraji's essays are longer than Know-All Arundhati's. But Mishraji should know that Taslima Nasreen and Salman Rushdie are Arundhati's best friends.
jaleel
luknow, India
Sep 28, 2008 12:00 AM
25
>> It is not easy for me to point to these acts of omission.

Ahahahaha Mishraji, what do yo do ? Have you ever mentioned the word Pandit in all the garbage you are producing for so many years now?

Why do you foget the holocaust of Kashmiri Pandits everytime ?? Why, oh why ? Why, why, why, why ...................
jaleel
luknow, India
Sep 28, 2008 12:00 AM
26
Attrocities in Kashmir...

http://ikashmir.net/atrocities/11.html


Respected Misharji, Kindly have a look.
jaleel
luknow, India
Sep 28, 2008 12:00 AM
27
>> "But it makes progressively less sense why many Indian liberals should not make nuanced distinctions between Kashmiri and Indian Muslims; why they should help the fanatics of Hindutva hold Indian Muslims hostage by refusing to publicly uphold Kashmiri rights to a life of dignity."

Very well said. Pankaj Mishra's article is a clarion call for Indian liberals who have boxed themselves unwittingly with the Hindutvadis.

>> "the Sangh parivar has not only given Indian nationalism a hard majoritarian cast; it has also infected India’s state and civil society with its illiberalism."

The evidence of this infestation is easy to see and should be a cause of concern for all those who subscribe to secular and liberal values.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Sep 28, 2008 12:00 AM
28
>> The evidence of this infestation is easy to see and should be a cause of concern for all those who subscribe to secular and liberal values.

And a source of joy for all decent folks.
Al Bundy
San Francisco, United States
Sep 28, 2008 12:00 AM
29
Misra’s analysis is mostly on the mark. Yet, there is something off-key about it. Perhaps it is his “Indian logic”: fear of Kashmiri Muslims demanding freedom exposes 150 million Indian Muslims to further BJP bigotry. Just to be sure, BJP has never needed another excuse to anathemise Muslims. That is the very core of their ideology. But the liberals using that inevitability as an excuse to be mealy-mouthed about Kashmir is a prime example of Indian logic. Aren’t there more solid grounds to analyze the Kashmir question on? Such as India’s strategic interests, human rights, plebiscite promises, distractions or simple cost-benefit analysis?

The most common argument against a political solution to Kashmir is the falling dominos argument. It was the same argument that served Americans ill in Vietnam. This argument is as recycled as it is unconvincing. Indians believe that once we talk ourselves into the logic of a proposition, it must be universally valid. Anyone demurring is evil. Such an underdeveloped psyche continues to haunt us.

We use our simplistic understanding of history (when we can actually muster one) and assume the world works in such simplistic linear terms. Thus Bajpai thinks genocide is the only grounds for demand of freedom. Neither American nor Indian independence movements were grounded in genocides.

We have a limited understanding of human yearning for freedom. Virtually all humans say it is better to be the lord of a hovel than a slave in a palace. It is an open question if Indians believe that. We never really believed in the freedom arguments we put forth in wresting our independence from the British. They were merely useful or convenient to persuade the British. Had we truly believed the arguments, their universal application meant they apply equally against us as for us. Thus, Brits ruling India makes no less sense than Indians ruling Kashmir.

Indians are hopelessly addicted to abstractions. That make it difficult for them to live in a concrete world. Example such as “idea of India” is invoked as the entirety of an argument with no need to flesh it out further. Besides, “the idea of British Empire” would have sounded as hollow to our ears as the “idea of India” sounds to Kashmiri ears.

Mishra is incorrect in stating that Sangh parivar has infected India’s state and civil society with illiberalism. Sanghis are upfront with their illiberalism. The non-sanghis furtively masks their illiberalism with yogic contortions. They are two sides of the same coin: an illiberal civilization that doesn’t value human freedom nor understand human yearning for it.
Augustus aaa
Pune, India
Sep 28, 2008 12:00 AM
30
faruki

after recent bombings,and the sentiments expressed by a vast majority of muslims, i think that kashmiri muslims should be allowed to leave the indian union. i even submitted a unsolicitated paper to the indian foreign ministry, justifying kashmiri right to leave on a cost benefit analysis.

howeve muslims have gotten their way by forming
a muslim home land, and thereafter expelling
all hindus. i think its fair that we should get a similar hindu homeland- and perhaps expell some of the most troublesome muslims.

i am damned tired of being the nice guy,after haveing been short changed by muslims since times
immemorial. the chinese have kept the muslims on a tight leash, and so have the russians.

why in hell should we be generous to the oweissis and the shahubuddins. all other communities in europe and australia etc have now taken a stand on national interest. we should do the same.

freedom for kashmiri,s fine, and the same for us from fanatical and backward muslims,who are a daily pain in the butt for us.

and whats more i dont think this is negotiable.
lets be as firm on hindu rights as kashmiri, pakistani, and indian muslims are about their rights.
lalitmb
kalundborg, Denmark
Sep 28, 2008 12:00 AM
31
"But it makes progressively less sense why many Indian liberals should not make nuanced distinctions between Kashmiri and Indian Muslims; why they should help the fanatics of Hindutva hold Indian Muslims hostage by refusing to publicly uphold Kashmiri rights to a life of dignity." Pankaj Mishra

This is 100% "Secular Fascism" that would end up making Hindis extinct in theor land of birth. Look at Pundits in Kashmir and Hindus in Pakistan-endangered! What makes you qualitatively different from those supporting terror against Hindu infidels in India, since 712?

Since Muslims won Pakistan (through their typical weapon, genocide)is it not RATIONAL and COMMEON SENSICAL for Hindus to fear of their long term security, given the exploding Musloim population growth?

You haven't responded to any of my posts, yet. Please answer one by one, in detail
hindu
Varanasi, India
Sep 28, 2008 12:00 AM
32
"But it makes progressively less sense why many Indian liberals should not make nuanced distinctions between Kashmiri and Indian Muslims; why they should help the fanatics of Hindutva hold Indian Muslims hostage by refusing to publicly uphold Kashmiri rights to a life of dignity." Pankaj Mishra

This is 100% "Secular Fascism" that would end up making Hindus extinct in their land of birth. Look at Hindu Pundits in Kashmir and other Hindus in Pakistan-endangered! What makes you qualitatively different from those supporting terror against Hindu infidels in India, since 712?

Since Muslims won Pakistan (through their typical weapon, genocide)is it not RATIONAL and COMMON-SENSICAL for Hindus to fear of their long term security, given the exploding Musloim population growth?

You haven't responded to any of my posts, yet. Please answer one by one, in detail

hindu
Varanasi, India
Sep 28, 2008 12:00 AM
33
"the Sangh parivar has not only given Indian nationalism a hard majoritarian cast; it has also infected India’s state and civil society with its illiberalism." Pankaj Mishra

a "majoritarian" cast! Study carefully the History of Islam where both majorities and minorities were ethnically cleansed out, through Islamic Sword and Fire
hindu
Varanasi, India
Sep 28, 2008 12:00 AM
34
Satya/Bodepudi,

>> Pankaj needs to research and reflect on Islamic Texts and Tenets.

What does this article have anything to do with any texts, idiot? Will your hate prachar ever stop?
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Sep 28, 2008 12:00 AM
35
What a belching jerk this Mishra is. No feeling, no empathy in his commentary. Just cold intellectualism. Very un-Indian and anti-Indian in spirit. Mishra didn't even bother to bring up A) Ladakh B) Jammu and C)Kashmiri Hindus. India cannot be an occupying colonial power for Kashmiri Moslems, but not for these other groups. That's practically impossible. British colonialism in India, and American carpet-bombing of distant Vietnam, a country not connected to the US historically or culturally, are awful examples. Northern Ireland *might* be a more accurate comparison. What are the similarities, and what are the differences, between Ireland and Kashmir? It would be appropriate to go into that.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Sep 28, 2008 12:00 AM
36

http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/sep/11guest1.htm


The case against "Azadi". Great one, by Sushant Sareen.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Sep 28, 2008 12:00 AM
37
The elites of NYT "chose" Pankaj Mishra to write about the "Indians", in the 90's that turned an obscure English major into an overnight celebrity. Using NYT as a springboard he had landed the coveted "columnist" position in "Guardian" and contributed in "AXESS" the Swedish liberal magazine. And he has not disappointed
his WASP benefactors. He has been relentless in persecution and demonizing the Indian Middle class. In the early ninetiesit was the poverty and depravity of the "Hindoos" and later
after the liberalization it was the "depravity" and lack of consciousness of the middle
class lulled by prospertity.

Here he compares the Indian Army with the Nazi's an utterly preposterous claim. Indian

army inspite of grave provocations behaved much better than the American Army in Iraq( Haditta and Fallujah any
one?)

www.tehelka.com/story_main.asp?filena
me=op013004ThePullofFascism.asp

He blamed Indian Army for the cold blooded massacre of 35 unarmed civilian Sikhs in

Chattisgarh, Kashmir inspite of lack of evidence and motive. He went on to demonize the

Indian Army later NYT's own reporter interviewed one of the gunmen who participated in the

massacre who confessed to the murder. This gunman was a Pakistani, so much for the insight
of Mishra.

Having been completely wrong on several issues has'nt stopped him from continuing his biased, blinkered and ideological rantings.He need not travel the lengh and breadth of India looking for depraved people whose

consciousness is lulled by prosperity he just needs to look in the mirror!





Malavika
san jose, United States
Sep 28, 2008 12:00 AM
38
"The commonest secularist response consists of fierce denial and bluster. Kanti Bajpai avers that since the Indian state has not committed genocide in Kashmir, the Kashmiri demand for freedom is groundless—surely by this legalistic logic Gandhi and Nehru had no right to ask the British to quit India? G."


So, this is the caliber of a NYR, British did not commit genocide? so what was Jallianwalla Bagh? A little British love? What about the endemic famines which killed 10 of millions of people?

"According to Mike Davis (Late Victorian Holocausts: El Nino Famines and the Making of the Third World, Verso, 2000) there were 31 serious famines during the 200 years of the Christian State, as opposed to 17 during the previous 2000 years! And in the famines of the 1870s and 1880s, as many as 30 million Indians died. Yes, 30 million, one California, 10 per cent of the population. "

"British famine relief: the ration was one pound of rice per day for an able bodied male. An absolute starvation diet. At the same time, during the height of the famine, they exported record amounts of wheat and other grains from India to Britain! Millions were starving to death in India, and thousands of tons of grains were exported to Britain! "




http://www.rediff.com/news/2002/aug/16rajeev.html


Actually this ration was less than the rations at the notorious Aushwitz.

This Mishra guy is a true Uncle Tom, but what ever has happened to the fact checkers of Outlook, clearly they don't exit!

M.Patil




Malavika
san jose, United States
Sep 28, 2008 12:00 AM
39
Dear Mr,Mishra,

1)Are you really an Indian?
2)The issue at hand is unity and sovereignity of India. Kashmir issue is not bigger than India. All of us whether Hindus, Muslims, Christians and other religions are first Indians and then religion or creed.
3)From you article your worldview is extremely naive.India faces fundamental challenges from Islamists and Pakistani Jihadis. While all the columnists of magazines and secular politicians focus on Hindu bashing. All are interested in votebanks of Minorities and so called oppressed classes. BUT AVERAGE INDIAN IS INTERESTED IN ROTI, KAPDA AND MAKAAN and avoiding to die/worse crippled/maimed/become vegetable from bomb blasts.

IS THIS TOO MUCH TO ASK FROM MONKEYS IN INDIAN PARLIAMENT WHO RIDE ON FALSE PROMISES AND EXERCISE ENIRMOUS WEALTH AND POWER IN THE NAME OF INDIAN DEMOCRACY?
4)I suggest you take advice of poor citiizen like me and amswer:
A)WHY DID SECULARIST CONGRESS-NCP GIVERNMENT IN MAHARASHTRA NOT TAKE ACTION ON SRIKRISHNA COMMISSION REPORT?
B)WHY IS MAHARASHTRA SECUKAR GOVERNMENT MORE INTERESTED IN BANNING BAR GIRLS RATHER THAN THROWING RAJ THACKERAY IN JAIL?
C)WHY DID ALL INDIAN GOVERNM,ENT BURY THE JAIN HAWALA SCANDAL WHEN ALL TOP POLITICIANS FROM CONGRESS/BJP/SP/JDS FEATURED IN ILLICIT FUNDS SUPPLIED TO TERRORISTS TOO?

D)HOW CAN YOU CALL FORMER INTELLIGENCE CHIEF AJIT DOVAL AN EXPERT AS HE TOO IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE MESS IN FIGHTING TERROR? IT IS EASIER TO POINT DEFICINCIES WHEN THE BIRDS HAVE FLOWN THE COOP?

E)HOW COME WHEN TERRORISTS CAUGHT ARE INNOCENT IF MUSLIMS EVEN IF CAUGHT RED HANDED WHILE HINDU OUTFITS ARE TRUE TERRORISTS? WHY NOT PUNISH ALL PERPETRATORS REGARDLESS OF POLITICAL/RELIGIOUS AFFILIATION ?

HOW COME HRD MINISTER ARJUN SINGH SUPPORTS JAMI MILIA UNIVERSITY FUNDS TO SUPPORT TERROR SUSPECTS JUST BECAUSE THEY ARE MUSLIMS?

F)IF THE INDIAN POLICE CONDUCT CIVERUOS H=WHY DIES NOT THE INDIAN UPA SECUKLAR GOVERNMENT TAKE ACTION?

CONCLUSION-TOP INDIAN POLITICIANS AND BUREAUCRATS ARE WELL KNOWN TO COVER THEIR BACKSIDES. THEY RUN WITH THE HARES AND HUNT WITH THE HOUNDS.NGOS ARE ONLY INTERESTED TO PROTECT TERROR SUSPECTS THEN WHO WILL FIGHT ON BEHALF OF THE AERAGE INDIAN WHO DIES IN DELHI, MUMBAI OR CITIES/TOWNS IN INDIA?

IS THERE ANY BODY WHO CARES FOR THE AVERAGE CITIZEN IN INDIA?????
nrisgp
Mumbai, India
Sep 28, 2008 12:00 AM
40
Is this guy the male arundhati roy.
Chaitanya
Hyderabad, India
Sep 28, 2008 12:00 AM
41
Varun:>>"Mishra didn't even bother to bring up A) Ladakh B) Jammu and C)Kashmiri Hindus. India cannot be an occupying colonial power for Kashmiri Moslems, but not for these other groups."

You are right. For moslem moneybags and their paid-piper writers as psuedo-sec intellectuals, world history begins with islam, and indian history with independance, with pak as 'pure'-state, expected to eat up infidel india by 'poplosion' very soon!. But to the hindu-indian mind, human civilzn is over 10kyrs old, kashmir is really rishi-valley where sankara ascended the sarvagjna-peeTa over 2kyrs back, ladhak part of buddha-bhoomi, jammu is land of yaamuneSwaree-vaidshnavi and so on. Misradesa is the name for egypt. No wonder, some of the psuedo-brahmin misras of today in india are also playing the middle-east islamic tune!. For them, kashmir pandits, all indian hindus really, are just unfinished business, to be eliminated for the islamization of india as islamia, delhi to be mohammedabad, as planned by the jislamists centuries earlier.

But, such plans were also made, by ancient asura-beejas also. They were defeated by God's will. Same thing will happen; both asura-beeja jislam and adamo-genic churchianity will see defeat and and eventual elimination, only. Siva-vaadi bhakti-yogic shia-islam, and karma-gjnaana-yogic work-ethic Christianity, will find harmonious future with sanatanist dharma of india, based on truth, non-violence and humble service of all lives for the satisfaction and blessing of the ONE GOD of the universe, seen as different worship-worthy symbols among different cultures, as per their different geno-cultural inheritances.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Sep 28, 2008 12:00 AM
42
Seshadri,

>> For moslem moneybags and their paid-piper writers...

Just because he writes things you don't like, or do you have any evidence?

Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Sep 28, 2008 12:00 AM
43
Hindus donot have problem of Muslims or Chritisans living in India, only problem is they should not live at the cost Hindus, Hindu culture on the name secualrism.
Devendra Patel
Ahmedabad, India
Sep 28, 2008 12:00 AM
44
Peel off the layers of sophistry, and what is Comrade Pankaj Gupta? An apologist of goondas.
St James
Pearly Gates, Vatican City
Sep 28, 2008 12:00 AM
45


AUGUSTUS AAA:

You say: "We never really believed in the freedom arguments we put forth in wresting our independence from the British. They were merely useful or convenient to persuade the British."

What hypocritical whining !

Indians certainly belived enough in liberal values to hold free elections at regular intervals and to allow preople to speak and write freely - including you and Mishra.

Total secession of any territory from India has never been allowed, but in that stance India is in good company: the US fought its bloodiest war under its greatest President, Lincoln, to prevent the Southern States from seceding from the Union.

If your pretence to believe in total rights of secession in the name of liberlism were applied, there would have been no United States today.

Come off it, man. Who do you thnk you are fooling?

Hindus are tolerant compared to most.

Incidentally, for a person whining so loudly about minority rights, neither you nor Mishra had enough concern so much as to mention those OTHER minorities in Kashmir - the Hindus and the Buddhists and the Sikhs. They would be left to the tender mercies of jehads baing for blood, should Kashmir be given "freedom".

How can one give "freedom" to those who believe in blood-thirsty totalitarianism?
Iqbal Z
Pune, India
Sep 28, 2008 12:00 AM
46
Mishra's failure to look at what the "freedom" he windily proposes to confer on blood-thirsty jehadies would mean for hapless Hindus and Buddhists and Sikhs in Kashmir shows how utterly hypocritical is his claim to care about the fate of the "oppressed". He couldn't give a damn, provided he can write some lousy article dripping with hypocrisy that will bring him to notice.
Iqbal Z
Pune, India
Sep 28, 2008 12:00 AM
47
Hindus: Please read the following:

There is a story of a Mohammedan boy being ostracized by his community for participating in the Ganesh festival. It's Mohammedans who divide and seggragate themselves, not the other way round. Hindus are too meek and absurdly weak-and hence, only REACTIVE, THUS FAR.

Outlook, Hindu and most other papers in India are "secular" from the outside. Inside, they are seething with anger against Hindus for just calling themselves "Hindus"!

If you want serious questions on Islam debated, please visit unmah.net. If you want rhetorical questions, based on FACTS and REASON, please read books by Srjda Tritkovic, Ram Swarup, Andrew Bostom, KS Lal, RC Majumdar, Sita Ram Goel, Robert Spencer, Ali Sind's Faith Freedom, Islam Wach, Wafa Sultan, Hirsi Ali, etc

Arundhati Roys, Noam Chomskys, etc etc are the "official" "Approved" pro-jihadi candidates

hindu
Varanasi, India
Sep 28, 2008 12:00 AM
48
www.ummah.net, below
hindu
Varanasi, India
Sep 28, 2008 12:00 AM
49
Iqbalz writes:

>>Indians certainly belived enough in liberal values to hold free elections at regular intervals and to allow preople to speak and write freely - including you and Mishra.

As for the former, Cuba has regular elections too. As for later, they should try to take it away to remove the last pretense of a constitutional democracy.

>>Total secession of any territory from India has never been allowed, but in that stance India is in good company: the US fought its bloodiest war under its greatest President, Lincoln, to prevent the Southern States from seceding from the Union.

South was never ceded to the US by a monarch against the will of its people. Instead, South became part of the US by a combination of purchase and military conquest.

>>If your pretence to believe in total rights of secession in the name of liberlism were applied, there would have been no United States today.

The legitimacy of Kashmir's accession to India was questioned from day one.

>>Come off it, man. Who do you thnk you are fooling?

It is you who is fooling himself.

>>Hindus are tolerant compared to most.

I know that's what the travel brochure claims.

>>Incidentally, for a person whining so loudly about minority rights, neither you nor Mishra had enough concern so much as to mention those OTHER minorities in Kashmir - the Hindus and the Buddhists and the Sikhs. They would be left to the tender mercies of jehads baing for blood, should Kashmir be given "freedom".

On what theory do you argue your concern for the "other" minorities in Kashmir? Is that theory limited to your favorite minorities and doesn't extent to the minorities you despise? Your favorite minorities are in the best position to judge for themselves what's good for them. If your "sky will fall" claim is true, then they will leave and come to that "heaven on earth" called India.

>>How can one give "freedom" to those who believe in blood-thirsty totalitarianism?

The same way the Brits who had similar reservations about Indians gave "freedom" to "blood-thirsty" and "totalitarian" Indians.
Augustus aaa
Pune, India
Sep 28, 2008 12:00 AM
50
Jihadi "War is Deceit"

Islam morphs into whatever form it takes to subjugate or eliminate the Kaffurs (Infidels- Hindus, etc), while wearing the mask of a "religion".

Hollow statements like "Peace" and "Mercy" are interwoven into Islamic texts and tenets to deceive the unsuspecting converted Muslims (formerly, Hindus)and non-Musl leading into the bottom, like "War is Deceit". The true nature of Islam can not be understood until the big picture is visible and the contradictions are obvious. (until then, it's like the blind describing the elephant)-"Killing an innocent is like killing humanity", quickly and silently followed by " Whoever changes his religion, kill him). Hence, the BJP may try converting ALL Muslims back into Hinduism, justifiably.

Islam is full of contradictions and CONFUSIONS, leading the blind FAITHFUL who are unable/unwilling to see the elephant-the truth of Islam. Confusion masks deception, leading to the bottom line, "War is Deceit"-thus "religiously" sanctifying the spread of lies and propaganda

hindu
Varanasi, India
Sep 28, 2008 12:00 AM
51
AUGUSTUS AAA:

Your response of a spluttering buffoon answers itself.

How can one take seriously your argument that equates Cuban "elections" with only one totalitarian party allowed and with jailing for exercising freedom of speech, to Indian elections involving hundreds of parties with the most radically differing platforms, and freedom of speech and press? Whatever else in India, the world respects India's free elections.


Another incredible piece of hapless buffoonery on your part: putting the Indian nationalists of the Raj era on the same moral level as the savage jehadi thugs of today's Kashmir. I have plenty of criticisms of the Indian nationalist movement, but I know of no-one worth taking seiously who did not respect the democratic and liberal credentials of the party of Gandhi and Nehru.

After speaking about applying liberal values and the right of secession universally, you withdraw into special pleading as soon as your sacred cow - the USA - is brought up. The majority of the Southernm Confederacy, felt they were entilled to leave the Union if they chose. You make a specious case denying the South the right to secede, on grounds which overlook what most of the people there actually wanted.

But such special pleading setting aside any universal right of secession by free choice can be applied by Indians, too.

You are a blind, pompous and comical practitioner of double-standards.

Back to Wonderville Zoo !
Iqbal Z
Pune, India
Sep 28, 2008 12:00 AM
52
ganjaboy

i think it would be a blessing for all concerned
to permit the alley to leave india,

there is a positive side to this . we hindus
could demand the same freedom as the kashmiri muslims do create a hindu india, or at least some hindu states -

if muslims agree with this logic, then its fine.
if they dont,then its fine too.we should go ahead anyway.

himachal pradesh-simla as capital- and uttarkhand-dehradun as capital, are two of the
most peaceful and progressive states. there are
no minorities,both states have high literacy standards and they are never in the news for
terror attacks, and problems with muslim terrorists or christian missionaries.

what a blessing if the rest of india could be the same.

UP with secular govts, constant appeasement of
minorities is now the chief supplier of terrorism.

other states have christian missionaries
who are now pitted against the native inhabitants. they should travel to pakistan, and
bring christs blessing to them

happy beheadings.
lalitmb
kalundborg, Denmark
Sep 28, 2008 12:00 AM
53
"Another incredible piece of hapless buffoonery on your part: putting the Indian nationalists of the Raj era on the same moral level as the savage jehadi thugs of today's Kashmir. I have plenty of criticisms of the Indian nationalist movement, but I know of no-one worth taking seiously who did not respect the democratic and liberal credentials of the party of Gandhi and Nehru." Iqbal

The courage and confidence Gandhi-Nehru had in fighting against the British (by whom they were trained) imperalism was most tragically and conspicuously missing while confronting the far more dangerous Islamic imperialism.

hindu
Varanasi, India
Sep 28, 2008 12:00 AM
54
Pankaj Mishra fails to see or does not want to see the different dimensions of a problem. Russia, China all have sizable muslim insurgencies but they are all indigenous. None have ISI hand because of the totalitarian nature of the governments there. Kashmir would have got its freedom but for the meddling by the ISI and Pakistan. Thus Kashmir became a proxy for Pakistan. And Kashmir problem is religioncentric as other major communities of Kashmir dont have any sizable problem though they are also kashmiris. Though Indian muslims dont have any truck with kashmiri separatists, some fundamentalist organisations want to link all muslim problems to avenge the dominant hindu rule whether by secular hindus or non secular hindus. It is the responsibility of hindus to see through this game and not to hold every muslim responsinble for terrorism that is being unleashed at regular intervals. This terrorism problem must be treated as a law and order problem. We should not forget the ordinary muslim is as innocent or as guilty as the ordinary hindu.
pear
mumbai, India
Sep 28, 2008 12:00 AM
55
Pankaj Mishra

You and your creed are supreme hypocrites. Your hatred of Hinduism is so deep that you are willing to sleep with the antihuman islamic terrorists.

While your heart bleeds for the poor Kashmiris (the ones left in the valley after one of the most brutal and successful acts of ethnic cleansing in history), oppressed by the Indian state, you do not even a utter a word about what these peaceful Kashmiris have done to the other Kashmiris (Hindus and Sikhs).
Pradip Singh
stafford, uk
Sep 28, 2008 12:00 AM
56
If Narendra Modi were to become the Prime Minister that will be thanks to people like Pankaj Mishra, Arundhati Roy and Barkha Dutt.

Because the traditionally liberal and moderate Hindus are so fed up with the secularist hypocrisy.
Pradip Singh
stafford, uk
Sep 28, 2008 12:00 AM
57
>>How can one take seriously your argument that equates Cuban "elections" with only one totalitarian party allowed and with jailing for exercising freedom of speech,

Makes my point that externals do not determine democracy since that is what you were arguing; elections at regular intervals automatically renders a country liberal.

>>to Indian elections involving hundreds of parties with the most radically differing platforms, and freedom of speech and press?

Even then, it is still merely externals without the necessary attitudes and institutions capable of defending liberal values.

>>Another incredible piece of hapless buffoonery on your part: putting the Indian nationalists of the Raj era on the same moral level as the savage jehadi thugs of today's Kashmir.

splenetic venting about moral levels is mustering fake outrage. I am talking about the applicability of same arguments--without regards to which genre of rogues use that argument. It is you that is making a special pleading that an argument's validity depends on who is making it. In your case, your boogeyman cannot make same argument as your candyman.

>>I have plenty of criticisms of the Indian nationalist movement, but I know of no-one worth taking seiously who did not respect the democratic and liberal credentials of the party of Gandhi and Nehru.

Arguing from ignorance, huh? Because you don't know anyone, that settles the merits of the issue. Besides, those fellows are dead. And their spirit, if they ever had one, is long gone.

>>After speaking about applying liberal values and the right of secession universally,

I have never argued for a general right to secede. I have stated the dubious grounds on which Kashmir was acceded to India and the quixotic combination of bribery and thuggery that is the official policy towards Kashmir.

>>You are a blind, pompous and comical practitioner of double-standards.

You are simply blind.
Augustus aaa
Pune, India
Sep 28, 2008 12:00 AM
58
"South became part of the US by a combination of purchase and military conquest."

Are people living under military conquest in a better situation than those living under a suzerain to whom sovereingty has been transfered without the people having their say?

And if you purchase a country, the opinion of the inhabitants does not matter?

So, military conquest, sale of territory is OK but accession by treaty isn't.

What sophistry. Clearly AAA you are hallucinating.
sandy
Mumbai, India
Sep 28, 2008 12:00 AM
59
And there is a PREACHER CREATURE called PANKAJ MISHRA. Blessed be me for this discovery.

Who the hell is he? In the great tradition of Arundhati Roy he knows which side his bread is buttered ..

For 30 pieces of silver the likes of Mishra can do anything - even sue their mother for wrongful birth. Forget king and country.
sandy
Mumbai, India
Sep 28, 2008 12:00 AM
60
"I have never argued for a general right to secede. I have stated the dubious grounds on which Kashmir was acceded to India and the quixotic combination of bribery and thuggery that is the official policy towards Kashmir."

India then needed a Lincoln, not a Gandhi. There should never have been a Partition, to begin with. I salute Ambedkar who in his infinite wisdom chose Buddhism over others.


hindu
Varanasi, India
Sep 28, 2008 12:00 AM
61
ha ha ha,
another piece of advice come from lines of nom chomosky,arundhati roy,
we are wrong,india is wrong,media is wrong,u are right mr. mishra,
god save this our beloved motherland,
why are u here mr.mishra.go to cuba and you will understand the meaning of democracy
anurag narayan
delhi, India
Sep 29, 2008 12:00 AM
62
Stopperbhai,

>> Its an open secret that money bags keep downloading both from the Vatican as well as Saudi.

Is an "open secret" an excuse for not having any evidence.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Sep 29, 2008 12:00 AM
63
"elections at regular intervals automatically renders a country liberal."

Yeah, you can choose any colour AS LONG AS IT IS RED. That's elections commie style - in former Soviet Union and China. Peaceful transfer of power from the Communist party to lo and behold -the Communist party again.

No 1 in a field of 1!

Talk about being spoilt for choice.

If that's how AAA likes his democracy, I can hardly complain. To each his own.

Just stop the moral posturing.
sandy
Mumbai, India
Sep 29, 2008 12:00 AM
64
Agustuus AAA describes my views on Indian elections as follows:

".....that is what you were arguing; elections at regular intervals automatically renders a country liberal."

Try to learn to read, you abject dolt. I said "free" elections.

The rest of your disjointedly expressed responses are like the above: just too stupid to be worth arguing with.

Return to the chimp's enclosure and quit your periodic pathetically tortuous efforts to join the humam race.

Iqbal Z
Pune, India
Sep 29, 2008 12:00 AM
65
"Is an "open secret" an excuse for not having any evidence." Anwar Patel/Ghulam Faruki

What did you do with glaring EVIDENCE of:

1 genocide of Kashmiri Pundits,
2 Ethnic cleansing odf Hindus in Pakistan,
3 Genocide of Hindus in Bangla Desh,
4 Partitional genocide,
5 Ongoing terror bombings all over India,
6 Genocides since 712 that killed over 80 million Hindus-Hindu Kush genocides, Ayodhya genocides, Dwaraka genocides, Somanatha genocides, Nalanda genocides

7 Ghaznis, Ghoris, Nadir Shahs, et al

8 Destruction of tens of thossands of temples

hindu
Varanasi, India
Sep 29, 2008 12:00 AM
66
Hindu/Bodepudi,

>> What did you do with glaring EVIDENCE of.

I keep posting evidence of your psychopathy for the benefit of the new posters; you have actually advocated murder and even genocide in this very forum!
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Sep 29, 2008 12:00 AM
67
"I keep posting evidence of your psychopathy" Ghulam Faruki

Thus diverting attention from Theocratic Fascismn that washaunting India since 712!

The word "Science" is derived from the Latin: To "Know". Theocratic fascists do not want to "KNOW" thus making social harmony nearly impossible whereever they live
hindu
Varanasi, India
Sep 29, 2008 12:00 AM
68
Internalising racist, outdated, utterly discredited British views of Indians to score a debating point about Kashmir, is as pathetic as it is repugnant. The Indian independence drive was a progressive and widely influential movement, evisaging more democracy, freedom and economic and social development, that what existed under the British at the time. The British huffed and hawed about stupid, incompetent, backward natives, but those were merely mendacious last minute acts of a departing, discredited colonialist regime. Kashmir is just a sickeningly violent religious hatred cum ethno-chauvinist pile of bilge. There's nothing in the movement that tells people "yes, those Kashmiris are really oppressed, and they are striving to be free of that horrid tyranny, by waging a struggle for a truly democratic, pluralistic, secular and modern new state, which will serve as an inspiration to other countries, including the one they are trying to break free from" Isn't is rather strange that the above postion is something you will *never* hear expressed? Neither by Kashmiri separatists nor by individuals sympathetic to the cause.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Sep 29, 2008 12:00 AM
69
Anwar's stupid and repetitive accusations against "Hindu" should not divert from the content and value of Hindu's postings. If there was indeed a genocide in India during Moslem rule-and the evidence does support mass murder and vandalism, if not genocide- then that is something we should try to come to terms with, not
glorify,excuse, rationalise or mitigate as Moslems as a whole have done. It's a serious issue in Indian history.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Sep 29, 2008 12:00 AM
70
>>Internalising racist, outdated, utterly discredited British views of Indians to score a debating point about Kashmir, is as pathetic as it is repugnant.

this must be the warm spit in contrast with cold intellectualism?

>>The Indian independence drive was a progressive and widely influential movement, evisaging more democracy, freedom and economic and social development, that what existed under the British at the time.

Blah, blah, blah....hawk you BS to someone without a brain.

>>The British huffed and hawed about stupid, incompetent, backward natives, but those were merely mendacious last minute acts of a departing, discredited colonialist regime.

they sound rather prescient if you go by the facts.

>>Kashmir is just a sickeningly violent religious hatred cum ethno-chauvinist pile of bilge.

Sounds more like self-analysis...

>>There's nothing in the movement that tells people "yes, those Kashmiris are really oppressed,

Other than military occupation?

>>and they are striving to be free of that horrid tyranny,

Other than military occupation?

>>by waging a struggle for a truly democratic, pluralistic, secular and modern new state,

to meet a standard that India has yet to achieve?

>>which will serve as an inspiration to other countries, including the one they are trying to break free from" Isn't is rather strange that the above postion is something you will *never* hear expressed?

So the oppressed have to meet a purity standard laid out by the oppressor to discontinue the oppression?
Augustus aaa
Pune, India
Sep 29, 2008 12:00 AM
71
I have no doubt that if some of those old colonial farts were alive today, they would say, "we could do a better job than those Indians". Churchill would probably say that. So what? What does that have to do with India, and the state of Kashmir? Internalising more British pomposity and ignorance.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Sep 29, 2008 12:00 AM
72
If India hasn't met those standards, then let Kashmir show the way, and create better standards of democracy, secularism and pluralism, than what India possesses. Not only will their movement be greatly admired the world over, it will positively affect the state of those values in India. And moreover, such a visionary movement, as opposed to a reactive and reactionary one, will likely succeed.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Sep 29, 2008 12:00 AM
73
Hindu/Bodepudi,

>> Thus diverting attention from Theocratic Fascismn.

Letting new posters know about your despicable psychopathy, your genocidal threats and your trying to post deceitfully using my ID, is to just let them know who the hate messages that you write are coming from.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Sep 29, 2008 12:00 AM
74
Varun,

>> Anwar's stupid and repetitive accusations against "Hindu".

Letting new posters know about Hindu/Bodepudi's despicable psychopathy, his genocidal threats and his trying to post deceitfully using my ID, is to just let them know who the hate messages that he writes are coming from.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Sep 29, 2008 12:00 AM
75
faruki and hindu

everything points to dislike and suspicions between hindus and muslims - in general.

every terror incident brings this forth .

muslims and hindus should find a solution, and the proven solution is a further partition.

faruki could work to find place(s) for islamic
enclaves in gujerat. the constant bickering can go on for another 100 years.

as a nri, i feel disturbed by all this mess.

papers,media is full of muslims ,islam, hindu bigots. there is time for nothing else.

muslims and hindus must agree to use surgery once
again. this time it can be done humanely,with carefull planning. gujerat, rajasthan are front line states for this to happen.
lalitmb
kalundborg, Denmark
Sep 29, 2008 12:00 AM
76
What is this child talking about? The Indian nation cannot let Kashmir separate at any cost, half a million soldiers or whatever. Kashmir will not have peace until they recognize this. However, I also want Bajrang Dal banned along with SIMI.
P. K. George
Houston, USA
Sep 29, 2008 12:00 AM
77
Leaving aside for a moment, the loftiness, or rather lack thereof, of the Kashmir freedom movement, even if Kashmiri alienation is explained by the questionable circumstances under which Kashmir acceeded to India, that leaves us with a serious difficulty. Why then is Ladakh, the single largest area in Kashmir, not alienated from India? Ladakh was part of the Dogra kingdom. If you look on the map of Kashmir, you'll notice that Ladakh is located farther away from New Delhi, than the valley. Surely, they would have even more cause to be alienated, than the Kashmiri Moslems. But there hasn't been a single protest, let alone militant activity, in Ladakh. Curious, to say the least.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Sep 29, 2008 12:00 AM
78
"What is this child talking about? The Indian nation cannot let Kashmir separate at any cost, half a million soldiers or whatever. Kashmir will not have peace until they recognize this. However, I also want Bajrang Dal banned along with SIMI.

P. K. GEORGE
HOUSTON USA"

I want the catholic society of India banned.
ashok krihnamoorthy
columbia, United States
Sep 29, 2008 12:00 AM
79
Total crap ... this Mishra guy doesn't really know what he is talking about ...
Vijay Agarwal
Northampton, United Kingdom
Sep 29, 2008 12:00 AM
80
aggarwal

i thought you were a true secularist- and with
the famous jamuna ganga tehzib.

lalitmb
kalundborg, Denmark
Sep 29, 2008 12:00 AM
81
To the Kashmiris.
It is in your own interest to become full fledged Indian citizens with equal rights and duties and,of course, like the rest of us - Maharashtrians, Gujaratis, Punjabis,etc, you too can have your own culture,language and ways under the umbrella of the Indian Constitution.
Of course, before all this, the displaced Pandits are as Kashmiri as you'll and must be welcomed back as such.
There is absolutely no alternative to this solution. You can scream and protest and be instigated by the crooks across the border but, India's land area shall not be reduced by an inch, no matter what.
Azeem Taqi
Nashville, United States
Sep 29, 2008 12:00 AM
82
>>>Blah, blah, blah....hawk you BS to someone without a brain.

yeah only this preacher and his ilk have the right to peddle BS to ppl without brain. Too often they ASSume some ppl to not have any brains only to see their asses get kicked BAD.

>>they sound rather prescient if you go by the facts.

Britishers were always right cos they have two things in common with this douchebag. Christianity and "NATIVE" language English

>>Sounds more like self-analysis...

It may sound like self-analysis but it is not. It is analysis of scum bags like you.

>>Other than military occupation?
you shouldn't defend your property as that falls under military occupation category. you shouldn't defend your culture and religion as that falls under "purging minorities and religious intolerance" category.

>>to meet a standard that India has yet to achieve?

yeah this coward is gonna move to Kashmir to enjoy its tolerance towards missionaries.

>>So the oppressed have to meet a purity standard laid out by the oppressor to discontinue the oppression?

No. the oppressed have to meet a purity standard laid out by paedophiles sitting in vatican spreading a cult in the name of Satan.



ashok krihnamoorthy
columbia, United States
Sep 29, 2008 12:00 AM
83
"Letting new posters know about Hindu/Bodepudi's despicable psychopathy, his genocidal threats and his trying to post deceitfully using my ID, is to just let them know who the hate messages that he writes are coming from."

The subject "Hindu" raises is far larger and more important than one of his outbursts and his supposed antics on this forum.
Conquest and violence are bad no matter who does it. Moslems are the most unwilling to even admit to any wrongdoing. Not only that, they actually consider conquerors, raiders and mass murderers as their heroes. This was one of Jinnah's planks in his drive to create an Islamic homeland.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Sep 29, 2008 12:00 AM
84
Way to go Ashok. This whole Kashmir nonsense is based on their belief that they are different and unique. The underlying philosophy is "We are very different from Indians in language and religion, much more so than Mizos and Tamilians. And in order to protect that difference, an indepedent country is the solution. Without it, we are in danger of being swamped by a tyrannical India, and hence losing what makes us unique" That's not good enough for the 21st century. A freedom movement should be more elevating and transcendent. Particularly when it is being waged in the context of a country that is already democratic, pluralistic and federal. Not communist, fascist, dictatorial, monarchical or colonial settler-state.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Sep 29, 2008 12:00 AM
85
It would really great if all these pseudo-secular garbage selling Media sites let readers rate their articles just to show them how much they stink no matter how much money they make by pandering to the scum of India.

Too bad Indian media has transcended into a joke that happens to be just another business idea which stoops to any level just for TRP ratings and money. We should just let ppl write what is happening as it is happening instead of the garbage handed out to them by their bosses.
ashok krihnamoorthy
columbia, United States
Sep 29, 2008 12:00 AM
86
my grandson frederik is my favourite-though not
wild horses will make me admit this.

he is three years old- and strangely dislikes icecream and layered cakes- which are the best
desert for most danes.

but then no one chides him about this. of all things he likes chicken curry which i make for
family functions.

likewise i have my own tastes. i want a society of level headed people, who can down a few drinks, eat bacon sandwiches, and tell racey jokes.

i cant stand the devoted people of any religion,especially the muslims and the christians. there seem to be more then enough
of the latter on this site, the devoted hindus
are fun-one can tease them without getting beheaded or spat at.

so like frederik i demand to live in a society
made up of people with my values., i know that we can not deport the people we dislike, but at least we should have the liberty to say so.

i have never been a pretentious character, who
solemly swears to love all the various members of man kind and its my observation that we should reengineer india- split it into boxes for various communities.

muslims in boxes marked green, hindutwa hindus in boxes marked saffron, and christians with the boxes marked by a picture of sonia gandhi.

believe me india will never be a wonderful country like denmark or france. but it will be a damn sight better then its today.

maybe we will get a better media, and more intelligent wtiters then the ones who appear in
outlook every week. disliked and despised by most of us.


lalitmb
kalundborg, Denmark
Sep 29, 2008 12:00 AM
87
Mr LalitMB

Sir, my Ganga-Jumna Tehzeeb is eternal like my Sanatan Dharma. It is not a product of some Nehruvian Congressi type of "Secularism" which has converted the people of India into wimps ... it is product of Awadh, the land of Raja Ramchandra ji in whose reign both, the tiger and the goat used to drink from the same pool ...

Vijay Agarwal
Northampton, United Kingdom
Sep 29, 2008 12:00 AM
88
To Lalit MB,
Referring to your post,
... muslims and hindus must agree to use surgery once again. this time it can be done humanely,with carefull planning. gujerat, rajasthan are front line states for this to happen....

I am indeed surprised and shocked by your suggestion and I am sure, so are many others.
We have had the crime of partition and still do not have peace. Every inch of India is sacrosanct. Were we to endorse the surgical partition, where would it stop? Kashmir has problems, as does the North East, and so does the Tamil Eelam manifesto. Where does that leave India and Indians? Allowing one partition is encouraging another to stake its claim.
The solution lies in finding the answers and implementing them,no matter how much it costs and no matter how long it takes. We did find our answer with resolve in Punjab and we shall find it wherever it raises its head again.
Azeem Taqi
Nashville, United States
Sep 30, 2008 12:00 AM
89
Varun,

>> The subject "Hindu" raises is far larger and more important.

The subjects Hindu/Bodepudi raises are murderous revenge, hatred and fascism.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Sep 30, 2008 12:00 AM
90
Lalit,

>> i demand to live in a society made up of people with my values.

Have you considered living on the North Pole?
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Sep 30, 2008 12:00 AM
91
PKG:>>"The Indian nation cannot let Kashmir separate at any cost, half a million soldiers or whatever."

RIGHT. Half-million indian soldiers in j/k, not to suppress people there, but bec it is a border state, reqd to be defended from opponents on the other side of the long LoC, and monitor, prevent and disarm and arrest infiltrators coming in regularly for separatist propaganda and militancy. We should really have had another half-million soldiers on the border betw WB and bangladesh. Then, WB would not have become an extension of bangladesh, with the ugly leftists and trinamools, voted in power by bangla-infitrator fake-citizens, strongly opposing any land allotment for the state's industrial development.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Sep 30, 2008 12:00 AM
92
Dear Brother Azeem:

I completely agree with you regarding your note below to Lalit Bagai. Please explain how and why Muslims are silent when the Kashmiri Pundits in the Valley were ethnically clansed out, in the OPEN! That's why I don't have any trust that Hindus can ever feel secure in the presence of ever growing (twice the rate of Hindu growth) Muslim numbers in India. Does it not lead to the ethnic cleansing of Hindus in India, eventually?

Please explain what the Muslim "moderates"had done regarding the following list temple destruction in Kashmir.
Temples desecrated, damaged and/or shut down in Kashmir from 1990 to December 1992
1. DASHNAMI AKHARA, SRINAGAR
2. GANPATYAR TEMPLE
3. RAGHUNATH MANDIR, SRINAGAR
4. SHIVA TEMPLE , JAWAHAR NAGAR, SRINAGAR
5. HANUMAN MANDIR, SRINAGAR
6. SHIVA TEMPLE , BARBAR SHAH, SRINAGAR
7. JAI DEVI TEMPLE , BIJBEHARA
8. VIJESHWAR TEMPLE , BIJBEHARA
9. SHIVA MANDIR, BIJBEHARA
10. RAGHUNATH TEMPLE , ANANTNAG
11. GAUTAM NAG TEMPLE , ANANTNAG
12. THREE TEMPLES OF LUKHBHAVAN, LARKIPURA, ANANTNAG
13. WANPOH MANDIR, ANANTNAG
14. SHAILPUTRI TEMPLE , BARAMULLA
15. DAYALGAM MANDIR, ANANTNAG
16. BHAIRAVANATH MANDIR, BARAMULLA
17. BHAIRAVANATH MANDIR, SOPORE
18. RUPABHAVANI MANDIR, VASAKURA
19. KHIRBHAVANI MANDIR, GANDERBAL
20. SHIVA TEMPLE , GANDERBAL
21. MATTAN TEMPLE , ANANTNAG

There have been reports of further destruction of some 39 temples in Kashmir after December 6, 1992 for which FIR were filed. Please note that FIRs on all destruction cases were not filed with the authorities in view of the complicity of the administration and warnings of retaliation against the complainants by the Islamic terrorists.

These examples represent only a fraction of the systematic mass destruction of thousands of temples in J&K after independence of India when the Islamists assumed the total and unfettered control of the state.

hindu
Varanasi, India
Sep 30, 2008 12:00 AM
93
faruki

i am most comfortable in denmark. i get on superbly with the people.

i am sure this is a better place for me then with azamgarh types or rheindeers in the north pole.

you should move over to malegaon , or azamgarh.
surely you will find the place congenial.
lalitmb
kalundborg, Denmark
Sep 30, 2008 12:00 AM
94
The article needs an allout condemnation/Thios is a legacy of an ill concieved and appeasment policy followed by the successive congress govtts at the centre.If indira gandhi could consider privy purse abolition and justify it as an anachronism needing that step,she did not see anachronism on the continued retention of article 370 for J&K,because in both these actions a concealed vote bank issue was involved.Atleast for the sake of blood our brave soldiers had shed in kashmir let there not be an encuragment to separatism through such article for appeasments/ramachandran vn/on e mail from nj/usa
ramachandran v n
baroda, India
Sep 30, 2008 12:00 AM
95
"prevent Hindutva from damaging India’s multicultural ethos" - cheap journalism to get attention! Pankaj your self-esteem seems to be really low - must be so low maybe because you were abused as a child, have narcissistic needs to see your name in print or may have a depraved mind. Indian state is where you live in, maybe you'd like to go and live across the border and live in the liberal state. I would have felt anger but strangely enough all I feel is pity for you and your family. You need to go in therapy but I'm afraid your psychologist may go in depression after first meeting with you.
escoss
delhi, India
Sep 30, 2008 12:00 AM
96
For those who wish to know more about this retard Pankaj Mishra "on 20 March 2000, a few hours before United States President Bill Clinton arrived on his first official visit to India, 38 Sikh villagers were massacred in the village of Chattisinghpura, in the Indian State of Jammu & Kashmir. The killers wore Indian army fatigues. Mishra visited the village hours after the massacre, and later produced a report that was carried by several Indian and international papers. In the report, Mishra amplified Pakistani claims that the Indian army had killed the villagers in an attempt to win U.S. sympathy for the Indian stance on Kashmir. A later report carried by the British newspaper, The Guardian in July 2002 focused on the allegations of possible abduction and brutal murder by the Indian army of "innocent Kashmiri Muslim civilians" shortly after the massacre.

It has now been established beyond doubt that the acts were perpetrated by the Islamic terrorist group Lashkar-e-Toiba, based on the confession of a member of the terrorist group [1].

The massacre coincided with the visit of United States president Bill Clinton to India. In an introduction to a book written by Madeline Albright titled The Mighty and the Almighty: Reflections on America, God, and World Affairs (2006), he accused "Hindu Militants" of perpetrating the act. The allegation created a major fury, with both Hindu and Sikh groups expressing outrage at the lie. Clinton's office did not return calls seeking comment or clarification. In the hours immediately after the massacre in March 2000, the US condemned the killings but refused, to accept the Indian governments contention that it was the work of Pakistan based Islamist groups. That changed as soon as Clinton's claims were debunked. The publishers,Harper Collins routed a correction through Albrights office. In a public statement they acknowledged the error.[2]

Page xi of the Mighty and the Almighty contains a reference to Hindu militants that will be deleted in subsequent printings, both in America and in international editions (while retaining it in the current edition to act as fodder for misuse as and when needed. [2]"
escoss
delhi, India
Sep 30, 2008 12:00 AM
97
escoss

how is it that hindus provide so many people tell lies, to condemn fellow hindus.

there are few such in denmark, who will
wrongully malign their country- likewise no such people in other european countries

if india is beset with many problems, the reasons
are clear. too many mishras guys.
lalitmb
kalundborg, Denmark
Sep 30, 2008 12:00 AM
98
AUGUSTUS AAA

It is always too easy to ridicule Augustus Ganjaboy because he is too choking with anti-Hindu spite to use his feeble brain.

For instance, he pompously calls for Hndus to accept the Musim majority's self-determination in Kashmir, leading to independence, without worrying about what this will mean for the Kashmiri non-Muslim minorities. They'll just have to take pot luck, without worrying that the sky will fall down under Muslim rule.

Fine.

Except that, by tht same principle of majority self-determination, even Pakistan would not be possible, let alone an independent Kashmir.

The Hindu majority in British India could simply have opted for a Hindu state, leaving the minorities not worrying, Ganjaboy-style, that the sky would fall in for them under Hindu rule.

Tough luck, Ganjaboy.
Iqbal Z
Pune, India
Sep 30, 2008 12:00 AM
99
Hindu/Bodepudi,

>> That's why I don't have any trust that Hindus can ever feel secure.

You are a paranoid who wants to spread his distrust and hate. You are doing more harm than good.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Sep 30, 2008 12:00 AM
100
>>You are doing more harm than good.

your mullah clan is doing nothing but harm. that still doesn't stop you from trolling this forum.
ashok krihnamoorthy
columbia, United States
Sep 30, 2008 12:00 AM
101
>>It is always too easy to ridicule Augustus Ganjaboy because he is too choking with anti-Hindu spite to use his feeble brain.


I proved a month ago that Augustus doesn't have a brain. please take back your statement.
ashok krihnamoorthy
columbia, United States
Sep 30, 2008 12:00 AM
102
>>The subjects Hindu/Bodepudi raises are murderous revenge, hatred and fascism.

you don't qualify to make that statement as your religion and koran are all about hatred, fascism and opressing women, not to mention terrorism.
ashok krihnamoorthy
columbia, United States
Sep 30, 2008 12:00 AM
103
"During two decades of vicious anti-Muslim campaigns and terrorist retaliation, the Sangh parivar has not only given Indian nationalism a hard majoritarian cast; it has also infected India’s state and civil society with its illiberalism. Certainly, Kashmiri Muslims, who feel assaulted with an iron fist by both Hindutva-wadis and secularists, cannot be blamed for failing to spot the fine distinctions between the idea of India and the idea of Akhand Bharat. "---------

Dear Author,

With due respect to your thoughts,i feel the above mentioned part of your article are really confusing.Althouh i confer with you that sangh pariver might have a hand in vindicating nations muslims,but in no ways it has been involved in changing/influencing the thoughts of kashmiri muslims(yes i consider Kashmiri muslims different from Indian muslims.)
Infact it is the reverse case,kashmiri muslims have been involved in genocide of lakhs of Kashmiri hindus,the fact international community always ignores.I don't think the new uprising(after 1991) is some or the other way related to Sangh parivar and secularists,this is clearcut magnification of the amarnath land issue into an avalanche.Perhaps what needs to be noted is that the current turmoil is the gift of Kashmiri muslim politicians only,and also callous approach of Indian govenment to resolve the issue in quick time.

Any comments are most welcome.

Thanks and Regards,
Vivek Koul


Vivek Koul
Florida, United States
Sep 30, 2008 12:00 AM
104
Stopperbhai,

>> Hindus are not feeling insecure but feeling helpless.

That is not what Hindu/Bodepudi said. Talk to him.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Sep 30, 2008 12:00 AM
105
Stopperbhai,

>> People with your kind of a mindset do not deserve to stay in that free,liberal,secular country like America but in Saudi Arabia.

What is this in reference to? Or are you just spewing hate as a matter of habit?
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Sep 30, 2008 12:00 AM
106
Outlook:

Please ban the posts by Anwar Patel/Ghulam Faruki/Green Leaf, et al as he is a proven leader/supporter of pro-terrorist organizations in the US, as stated by two senior Senators( Senator Schumacher of NY and Senator Durbib of Illinois. He is also a self-proclaimed supporter of theocratic fascist Ahmedinejad. Ghulam Faruki accuses others with NO PROOF and cunningly diverts attention from the ethnic cleansing of Kashmiri Pundits. He never answers:

1 Why minorities are ethnically cleansed out in Muslim countries,
2 What happened to Jews, Christians, Parsees, Zoroastrians, Buddhists, etc who were opncve a MAJORITY in the current Muslim imperailist countries,

3 How could a genuine religion degrade women into slavery by sanctifying 4 wives for one man?

4 Why the "religion of peace" sanctifies killing of "apostates" and "infidels"?

5 Aren't the "secular" fanatics in India, Europe and the US like the blind describing the proverbial elephant, missing the REAL thing-the theocratic fascism?

6 Is it not the birth right of ALL Hindus to know of their Islamic past, in light of ongoing terror? This is their very survival

7 Why do Hindus need to read, much less respond, to the ravings of a theocratic fascist?
hindu
Varanasi, India
Sep 30, 2008 12:00 AM
107
Hindu/Bodepudi,

>> Please ban the posts by Anwar Patel/Ghulam Faruki.

This from a hatemonger and liar who has advocated murder and even genocide in this forum, and who fraudulently tried to post using my ID!

>> Ban Islam from India which threatens the very survival of Hindus.

The idiot uses the hospitality of Outlook to print his execrable hate prachar.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Sep 30, 2008 12:00 AM
108
So what is special about these kasmiri muslims. Have they descended from heaven or what. Indian government is treating rest of India as less human material compared to the kashmiris.
Chaitanya
Hyderabad, India
Sep 30, 2008 12:00 AM
109
Will the kashmir be any better if it is separated from India? Are there any industries(except for the tourism, apples and carpets) there or possibility for it? Will the Kashmiri economy thrive without aid from Indian government?
Chaitanya
Hyderabad, India
Sep 30, 2008 12:00 AM
110
Indians should be beware of secular liberals like Pankaj Mishra. These unemployable English major types make their living by kow towing to Western universities and authorities and are forever trying to get handouts by aooearing to be politically correct. Their loyalty lies with themselves not to the principle of secularism etc.
Gaurav
Santa Fe, United States
Sep 30, 2008 12:00 AM
111
chaitanya

you have said it all.

kashmir would be financially strapped without
indian aid.

however they are grown up people-let them decide.
its admirable that they will accept a lower life
style , rather then stay away from us.

muslims in general have the same mindset.

they prefer the 5 times namaz per day, friday prayers, and a month of hunger dureing ramadan,
which effectively reduces their work output, to
a better and modern life style.

they want to keep their women uneducated, and unable to work outside the house, to protect them away from being lured by the local youth.

their destiny is to be bare feated and pregnant,
looking after the family.

one of the terror suspects has 10 brothers and 4 sisters. this ofcource is all the fault of the devious bajrangis.

let kashmir go its own way. the price can be
negotiated, perhaps being only that they make room for the gujerati muslims, who can relocate at the expense of the indian govt.

nothing on earth justifies keeping kashmir by force in india.its just that no one has the courage to say so. the ones who do, are brushed
of as loonies.

i have favoured kashmirs independence from india
for ages.

i would consequently deport afzal guru immediately to pakistan. he is regarded as a freedom fighter by kashmiri muslims, and all muslims in the world.

i see him as a small rather pathetic creature.
a creature of circumstances. let him go for christs sake.same again for nalini the tamil
heroine.
lalitmb
kalundborg, Denmark
Sep 30, 2008 12:00 AM
112
faruki-hindu

frank and open speech is good.

reading faruki has revealed to all of us how liberal muslims think.

reading hindu serves the same purpose.

reading gangaboy,kumar is most useful.it shows the alienation of indian christians.one should not ignore this

makeing a united liberal india, out of such people is a job not for man or god.

trying to do so,has little reward and is a frightful waste of time. the whole concept of pluralism is a lunatic idea.

i remember ages ago that we invited an american
professor from copenhagen to talk about muslim
immigration. he was quite taken up with this idea, and he told us of the immense benefits of
cultural enrichment from immigrants.

i was most sceptical, and i can see that i was right. heavens knows the quality of cultural
enrichment we have gotten.and we know the cost.

about 4 billion usd per year in welfare payments
to muslim immigrants. the chinese, vietnamese, tamils, dont normally live on welfare. both men
and women work, and the children get on reasonably well in danish society.
lalitmb
kalundborg, Denmark
Sep 30, 2008 12:00 AM
113
"As innocent victims of “bomb terror” and “mob terror” scream for media attention, the Indian
liberal seems to be losing his focus."

So this fellow wants the media to leave behind the victims of terror and focus on the grievances, imagined or otherwise, of these fundamentalists, when the common folks are being bombed to death nonstop?
Chaitanya
Hyderabad, India
Sep 30, 2008 12:00 AM
114

"This from a hatemonger and liar who has advocated murder and even genocide in this forum"

His name, Ghulam Faruki. Repeats lies against infidels and is scared of the TRUTH of Islamic horrors in India. His admirers : bAhmedinezad (and, naturally, Hitler)-a memeber of pro-terrorist organization called CAIR-condemned by two senior SEnators as pro-terrorist
hindu
Varanasi, India
Sep 30, 2008 12:00 AM
115
SUBROTO CHATTERJEE
KOLKATA INDIA

why do bongs always root for China and treat India as their enemy. If they hate India so much why not just jump across the border into Bangladesh. whatever happened Netaji and Tagore. the present day bongs are just communist scums who sleep with the enemy.
ashok krihnamoorthy
columbia, United States
Sep 30, 2008 12:00 AM
116
Chaitanya>>Will the kashmir be any better if it is separated from India? Are there any industries(except for the tourism, apples and carpets) there or possibility for it? Will the Kashmiri economy thrive without aid from Indian government? >>

we shouldn't even be asking this question about something that rightfully belongs to us. if the pakis wage a proxy way we just defend our motherland. no point in justifying the presence of army. if you own something and are responsible you protect it from aggressors.
ashok krihnamoorthy
columbia, United States
Sep 30, 2008 12:00 AM
117
chatterjee

i know of the constant complaints from muslims, christians and sikhs. we dont need a man like
you to tell us more.

for a change i will recount the killings of hindus in india, despite haveing an army of a million men

aaa killings of hindus by the khalistani,s
in punjab.

the terrorist bombing of an air india plane over the atlantic -about 300 dead.

the killing of indira gandhi,by her sikh gaurds.

bbb killing by muslims

a huge number of hindus killed in kashmir,and
400,000 expelled by threats-

ccc killing of hindus in bombay bomb blast.

ddd terror attacks on hindu over the last many years- about a thousand killed, and many more
injured.

the secular hindus dont write about this.

you are full of chicken shit.
lalitmb
kalundborg, Denmark
Sep 30, 2008 12:00 AM
118
Roadmap for Hindus regarding Islam

"moderate" Quradawi//If we let Shiites penetrate Sunni societies, the outcome won't be praiseworthy. The presence of Shiites in Iraq and Lebanon is the best evidence of instability."

Qaradawi is a prominent moderate cleric, but he has grown skeptical of Shiite intentions. Two years ago he suggested that Shiites were using the mystical Sufi order of Islam as a cover to penetrate Sunni society. His most recent volleys undercut efforts by Islamic leaders to ease religious tensions, and raise questions about his motivations. Much of the funding for Qaradawi's Qatar-based media enterprises comes from Sunni nations uneasy over Iran's widening influence in the Persian Gulf.
Abul-Fazel Amoee, an Iranian political scientist, said Qaradawi had become an instrument of anti-Shiite propaganda orchestrated by Sunni royals. He said this parallels the "deep rivalry between Saudi Arabia and the Islamic Republic of Iran, and the stage of this competition or ideological battle today is the field of Iraq."

hindu
Varanasi, India
Sep 30, 2008 12:00 AM
119
"Hindus in India exhibit many weaknesses of the heart and the mind in relating to their Muslim brethren. These are a cause for worry in the difficult times that India is currently passing through. One weakness is the dangerous temptation amongst a tiny section of the Hindu society to think that they can make the community strong by meeting extremism with counter-extremism, terrorism with counter-terrorism. India’s history shows that neither religious extremism nor political extremism has ever found support with the Hindu masses ...

Soul-searching about the many ills in Hindu society is of course necessary. But soul-searching should not degenerate into self-blame, which is the attribute of a coward masquerading as a progressive. How many secular Muslims have you seen who loathe their own religion the way secular Hindus routinely do? How many secular Hindu intellectuals have you seen voicing legitimate Hindu concerns (such as mass conversions by Christian evangelists) the way secular Muslims endorse legitimate Muslim concerns? This Hindu weakness, coupled with the attraction of a Muslim vote-bank, is rapidly influencing the stance of many self-styled secular political parties on serious challenges before the nation (Islamist terrorism, large-scale infiltration by Bangladeshis, and separatism in Kashmir, to name a few). In the name of secularism, nationalism is being undermined.

What India needs today is the coming together of proud Hindus and proud Muslims, joined by the common unbreakable bond of Indianness and willing to introspect about the shortcomings in their own communities."

read:
http://www.indianexpres...heart-and-mind/366736/0
Vijay Agarwal
Northampton, United Kingdom
Sep 30, 2008 12:00 AM
120
aggarwal

you are much attracted to sentimental bilge.hindus and muslims have been daggers drawn
since the day ghauri landed in india.

europeans have had a similar enemity with the muslims- from the times crusaders landed in
palestine.

lets not try and build relationships, when they
offer only failure and frustration.

nehru should have accepted the truth of the 2 nation theory made by jinnah. simple and straightforward. lets proceed from this.

india is in trouble because of various communities-who dislike each other-liveing togather. i dont know the solution to this, but
putting on a black patch on ones eyes will not help.

lalitmb
kalundborg, Denmark
Sep 30, 2008 12:00 AM
121
The Congi Media Engineering on gifting J&K to terrorists might look, as if it had a good reception with people. It was not a silent acceptance, it was a fuming volcano which will burst out on the D-Day in '09
Narayan
Zurich, Switzerland
Sep 30, 2008 12:00 AM
122
Faruki:

"you don't qualify to make that statement as your religion and koran are all about hatred, fascism and opressing women, not to mention terrorism."

Well said Moorthy.

What is genocide but Jehad against infidels.
sandy
Mumbai, India
Sep 30, 2008 12:00 AM
123
ADVANTAGE ISLAM:

"one of the terror suspects has 10 brothers and 4 sisters. this ofcource is all the fault of the devious bajrangis."

Why bomb the infidels when you can simply outbreed them - and then usher in Dar ul Islam for all.

Can't the Jehadis wait just for a few decades?
sandy
Mumbai, India
Sep 30, 2008 12:00 AM
124
Pankaj Mishra’s piece, India: A Massacre Justified By Philanthropy?, caught my attention and in fact, I find it very convincing in as much as Kashmir valley had been a burden for the people and governments. I think of a social experiment, the last act of philanthropy, with gradual transfer of Kashmiris and land into a buffer region between India and Pakistan that may emerge as a sovereign nation or merge with Pakistan. The managers of the historical event would be a team of intellectuals, Supreme Court judges, professionals, industrialists from among various religions, and the Indian security forces devoid of preachers and politicians.

UN peace keeping force manages the Line of Control with Indian security forces stationed parallel to it along the entire length of Jammu and Kashmir State. Just as the locks are used for water transport, the UN peace keeping force and the Indian security forces will facilitate gradual transfer of Kashmiris and land. The only difference I see is that whereas the locks are a permanent feature, people and lands, unlike ships, remain at the location. The Indian security forces, instead, move back. The Team evolves a methodology that will allow Kashmiris living in a (select) region (towns and villages) along the entire length of the Jammu and Kashmir State to choose to vote in or out of their Indian citizenship. Those Kashmiris who vote out should be allowed to stay put in the region (based on density of population, keeping in mind the abandoned property of the Pandits). Kashmiris who vote in with India move back with the security forces to the next region away from the border for a repeat voting process until all Kashmiris have made their choices. Finally, a new border will emerge that will keep the trouble out of India. The Indian security personnel will return to their units and enjoy the peace time environment. The Indian Kashmiris will willingly show allegiance to the Indian flag and live in peace and prosper along with their countrymen throughout the length and breadth of India.
P. Paul
Kartarpur, India
Sep 30, 2008 12:00 AM
125
@ P. PAUL

Have you been smoking pot lately?
photonman1
Hyderabad, India
Sep 30, 2008 12:00 AM
126
Have you been smoking pot lately?

PHOTONMAN1

As a matter of fact, yes, and that is how I could concentrate on one of the most important issues facing the nation today. It is just that I may not have approached it the way most of you would want. The pot I smoke is of deewangi—live and let live.
P. Paul
Kartarpur, India
Sep 30, 2008 12:00 AM
127
Our secular roots are deeper than Kashmir and Modi. It is possible that our failures in Kashmir, or more power to a Modi may divide us further. Yet, we have a 1,000 or so years of shared history of largely secular existence.

Jaipat S. Jain
mycable
new york, United States
Sep 30, 2008 12:00 AM
128
"Yet, we have a 1,000 or so years of shared history of largely secular existence." Jaipat S. Jain

You are only partially correct. While Muslims had prospered through Sword and Fire during the last 13 centuries, millins of Hindus and Buddhists had ceased to EXIST, INVOLUNTARILY, thanks to unending Islamic terror since the Sindh Genocides of 712
hindu
Varanasi, India
Sep 30, 2008 12:00 AM
129
"one of the terror suspects has 10 brothers and 4 sisters. this ofcource is all the fault of the devious bajrangis."

Hopefully from all wives
hindu
Varanasi, India
Sep 30, 2008 12:00 AM
130
Below should read: "Hopefully from the same father and mother"
hindu
Varanasi, India
Oct 01, 2008 12:00 AM
131
paul
India is indeed willing to concede POK and convert the LOC to International Border. but the expansionist views of mullahs don't allow any final settlement. they don't even want that in Palestine.

ashok krihnamoorthy
columbia, United States
Oct 01, 2008 12:00 AM
132
Hindu/Bodepudi,

>>>> "Yet, we have a 1,000 or so years of shared history of largely secular existence." Jaipat S. Jain
>> You are only partially correct.

In order to be "fully" correct, one has to echo Hindu/Bodepudi's malicious hate propaganda!
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Oct 01, 2008 12:00 AM
133
"Yet, we have a 1,000 or so years of shared history of largely secular existence." Jaipat S. Jain

"You are only partially correct. While Muslims had prospered through Sword and Fire during the last 13 centuries, millins of Hindus and Buddhists had ceased to EXIST, INVOLUNTARILY, thanks to unending Islamic terror since the Sindh Genocides of 712" Hindu

Ghulam:

Comment on the entire statement, based on facts and reason. That would help Muslims with a sense of cathartic sense of repentece and recompense, necessary (not sufficient) for making adjustments necessary for a peaceful co-living. This will help Hindus with a sense of understanding of Islam and Muslims, necessary for grace and forgiveness

You are so confused you are helping neither-other than the lunatic fringe-the terrorists


hindu
Varanasi, India
Oct 01, 2008 12:00 AM
134
Hindu/Bodepudi,

>> His admirers : Ahmedinezad (and, naturally, Hitler)-a memeber of pro-terrorist organization called CAIR-condemned by two senior SEnators as pro-terrorist.

I don't know if they are my admirers, but I am certainly not their admirer. And you know it. But being a professional hate pracharak, I suppose you just can't help lying.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Oct 01, 2008 12:00 AM
135
Hindu/Bodepudi,

>> Comment on the entire statement, based on facts and reason.

Facts and reasons from you, a hate propagandist of the worst kind?
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Oct 01, 2008 12:00 AM
136
PAUL:>>"a new border will emerge that will keep the trouble out of India."

Your procedure is too elaborate. A good part of orginal J&K has already been given to Pak as Pok.
Hence, all that is needed is for india and pak to agree: all in indian j/k who want to be pak citizens should be allowed to move into PoK across the LoC. Similarly, any one if any, in PoK wants to join indian J/k for developmental advantages, they can move east over the LoC, which can then be frozen as the international border. If there are moslems in indian J/K who want to be ‘free of india’ also, they can become free non-citizens of india, not paying any taxes nor taking any educ benefits from govts of india or j/k. They can live as 'free' guests of india and move to 'Allah's own country in arabia', 'akllakhyo rahati, bharati ca yatra, iti arabhah' [some sans for Paul, whether you like it or not], if and when the saudis would allow them.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Oct 01, 2008 12:00 AM
137
faruki

whats your reaction to americans who are blatantly antimuslim- this group seems to be growing exponentially.

yasmin is my source on this subject in britain.

pakistan link gives american views on islam and muslims-

i dont hate muslims. the few i know are all right,but very sensitive about their religion.
it makes any close contact impossible.

i believe its best to say things right out. ask my kids.

hypocracy is no use . it creates problems,
even though it may be convenient at times.

by the way. whats your own opinion about pakistani,s. are they the best people to know.?
lalitmb
kalundborg, Denmark
Oct 01, 2008 12:00 AM
138
Lalit:>>"nehru should have accepted the truth of the 2 nation theory made by jinnah. simple and straightforward"

Perh you are right. Even now, india, pak, bangla, lanka, nepal, bhutan can all agree that any one who wants to change citizenship from one of these countries to any other voluntarily can be allowed to do so. They cant take their land or house with them, but the can sell and take the money with them to settle down in the other country. Many pakis left in bangla after its freedom, and ther children, could also happily move back into pak, instead of moving into india as militants and terrorists.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Oct 01, 2008 12:00 AM
139
Lalit,

>> whats your reaction to americans who are blatantly antimuslim.

Anti-terrorist. You would not know the difference. Go to bed!
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Oct 01, 2008 12:00 AM
140
HINDU

I PREFER A SOCIETY WHICH IS PEACEFUL AND
FUN LOVEING.IT DOES NOT MATTER IF IT CONSISTS
OF ONE TYPE OF PEOPLE, OR MANY.

HOWEVER EXPERIENCE SHOWS THAT SUCH A MIXED SOCIETY IS FULL OF PROBLEMS.

ALL MINORITIES IN INDIA SEEM TO HAVE SOME GRUDGE AGAINST HINDUS.

THEREFORE FOR THIS REASON I WOULD PREFER A HINDU
SOCIETY, BUT WITH SOME OUTSIDERS WHO CAN ASSIMILATE IN THE MAINSTREAM

CHINESE, DANES,JEWS , FRENCH WOULD BE WELCOME.
ALSO MUSLIMS IF THEY CAN FIT INTO A MODERN LIBERAL SOCIETY.

IF MUSLIMS DONT FIT IN, THEN IT WOULD BE BETTER
THAT WE HAD ANOTHER PAKISTAN-OR MINIPAKISTANS.

WE SHOULD NOT SPEND ALL OUR TIME, ANSWERING COMPLAINTS FROM THE FARUKI,S. THEY SHOULD LIVE ON THEIR OWN.

THATS NOW THE UNIVERSAL EXPERIENCE OF MANY COUNTRIES.

FARUKI DO YOU LIVE IN A MUSLIM NEIGHBOURHOOD ,CLOSE TO A MOSQUE.
lalitmb
kalundborg, Denmark
Oct 01, 2008 12:00 AM
141
"His admirers : Ahmedinezad (and, naturally, Hitler)-a memeber of pro-terrorist organization called CAIR-condemned by two senior SEnators as pro-terrorist." Hindu

"I don't know if they are my admirers, but I am certainly not their admirer" Ghulam Faruki

They certainly should admire you for propagating their ideology of hate and intolerance for the "other", though your OVERT reciprocation seems now to be based more on convenience forgetfulness due to senility

hindu
Varanasi, India
Oct 01, 2008 12:00 AM
142
Hindu/Bodepudi,

>> They certainly should admire you for propagating their ideology of hate and intolerance for the "other".

They are your soul brothers since you are the perpetrator of lies and hate in this forum. You are also a fascist.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Oct 01, 2008 12:00 AM
143
>>Anti-terrorist. You would not know the difference. Go to bed!

There ain't no difference u liar.

>>They are your soul brothers since you are the perpetrator of lies and hate in this forum. You are also a fascist.

it would be nice if there was a voting system in this forum to prove that you are the terrorist here.

>>I don't know if they are my admirers, but I am certainly not their admirer. And you know it. But being a professional hate pracharak, I suppose you just can't help lying.

u r a shameless liar!!!

>>In order to be "fully" correct, one has to echo Hindu/Bodepudi's malicious hate propaganda!

nope. you have to consider genocides by muslims as spreading love and brotherhood.
ashok krihnamoorthy
columbia, United States
Oct 01, 2008 12:00 AM
144
To Hindu ji,

In response to our mail (partly copied below);

Dear Brother Azeem:

I completely agree with you regarding your note below to Lalit Bagai. Please explain how and why Muslims are silent when the Kashmiri Pundits in the Valley were ethnically clansed out, in the OPEN! That's why I don't have any trust that Hindus can ever feel secure in the presence of ever growing (twice the rate of Hindu growth) Muslim numbers in India. Does it not lead to the ethnic cleansing of Hindus in India, eventually?

Sir! I agree with you 100%. There is no way I or any right thinking person can ever, under any circumstances, justify causing harm to anyone. I am not even attempting it.
I too am an Indian Muslim and a 100% patriot and totally secular and wish all Indian Muslims would be so to.
I believe the government should get tough with terrorists on a 24x7 basis, be firm and delete Article 370, and strictly monitor 'madrassa' activities ( I have never seen the inside of one but have heard lots about it), and promote secular education. Platitudes and vote bank politics will not work. Get firm in the national interest.
Regarding the Ayodhya-Kashi-Mathura issues, they should respectfully dismantle the 'Masjids' and relocate it elsewhere in the country and build 'Mandirs' there. If the Muslim community realises that this is a great way to build good relations, great! If not, go ahead with firmness anyways.
Small families - that's the stuff of common sense but if this is not the case, we could adopt the Chinese line by levying extra taxes on,say, more than 2 children.
These could be an approximate roadmap to begin with.
Sir! I fully emphatize with your viewpoint and as an Indian, have always been doing my bit in speaking out against the terrorism in Kashmir and elsewhere, supporting reforms, etc. I do this on public posts like this one and even on a personal basis and join you in praying for our Pandit brothers and sisters and for the greater glory of our beloved Motherland.
Azeem Taqi
Nashville, United States
Oct 01, 2008 12:00 AM
145
Enough Is Enough

Five more killed in Delhi Blasts while the Parliament bomber is still hasn't faced the pinishment since India is run by cowards and spineless.

The BJP is cluless and gutless since it never represented Hindus at large and has no imagination how to unite them. Idiots, get rid of your caste psychosis and get liberated, first. You are unfit to liberate others.

A new leadership will emerge that will send the BJP frauds packing
hindu
Varanasi, India
Oct 01, 2008 12:00 AM
146
Dearest Brother Azeem:

Thanks for the post. Nothing less can unite us. The Sunni-Jihadi mindset should be defeated, 100%. A sufi version of Indianized Islam that truly represents the Prophet's early Mecca phase is consistent with the Hindu Advaita (Oneness of ALL) and the Buddha Dharma (Compassion for ALL-including the animals and plants) and the Sermon on the Mount. Please speak forcefully against Ghulam Farukis who are primarily responsible for the Indian Muslims' misalignment with the rest.

There is a movement in Turkey to rewrite parts of Koranic texts and tenets. Please find out and tell us more and let's foster the Hindu-Muslim amity, on a daily basis
hindu
Varanasi, India
Oct 01, 2008 12:00 AM
147
Dear Azeem:

Let's work on a draft for Hindu-Muslim amity based on the road map we both seem to agree on, for wide distribution in India and abroad. I will mail you the first draft which you can amend/refine

hindu
Varanasi, India
Oct 01, 2008 12:00 AM
148
Hindu/Bodepudi (to Azeem),

>> Please speak forcefully against Ghulam Farukis who are primarily responsible for the Indian Muslims' misalignment with the rest.

Do you mean my speaking up against hatemongers and liars like you is responsible for Indian Muslims' "misalignment with the rest"? If you see a crackpot like yourself to be well-aligned with the larger Hindu community, you are a greater buffoon than I thought!
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Oct 01, 2008 12:00 AM
149
":Do you mean my speaking up against hatemongers and liars like you is responsible for Indian Muslims' "misalignment with the rest"? Ghulam Faruki

I meant both speaking against the Jihadis (Al Queda, SIMI, etc) and their open (Ghulam Faruki) and hidden (Congress, CPM etc) supporters, alike

1 What have you done regarding the ethnic cleansing of Pundits in Kashmir?

2 What had you done regarding the destruction of thousands of Hindu temples in Kashmir, some very recent, and posted in this very forum

3 What had you done regading the unending jihadi terror all across India?


4 What had you done regarding the preching of hatred against infidels, quoting from the Koranic texts, on a daily basis?

5 What had you done regarding the pre-meditated attack against Hindu pilgrims at Godhra?

6 Was not the Gujarat tragedy a reaction, that started NEXT day-but not BEFORE?

7 Do you blame Hindus for reminding themselves of unending Muslim terror, since the 712 Sindh genocides? Do you want the proverbial chicken to sing the praises of Colonel Sanders?

8 Why are you defending the CAIR and the suspicious flying imams in the US-endlessly litigating and fraudulently utilizing civil liberties of the US democracy, for propagating the jihadi agenda in the US?

9 Why do you blame BJP (though they are gutless and clueless) and call them FASCIST when they are only defending (though meekly) the victims?

10 why do you speak the language og abuse and intolerance-is it because you are incurably sick-as Wafa Sultan once called the likes of you?
hindu
Varanasi, India
Oct 01, 2008 12:00 AM
150
Hindu,

>> I meant both speaking against the Jihadis (Al Queda, SIMI, etc) and their open (Ghulam Faruki) and hidden (Congress, CPM etc) supporters.

Anyone who does not agree with your hateful communalist views is, for you, a supporter of jihadis!!! You, with your murderous revengefulness and your advocacy of genocide, are in fact more akin to jihadis than anyone else in this forum.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Oct 01, 2008 12:00 AM
151
faruki

would it not be better for you to live in malgaon and me in new delhi, to avoid constant
conflicts.

you are at daggers drawn with a lot of hindus-right wing- but you still want to live in a plural society with them.

you believe muslims are doing fine,there is nothing the matter with them .so stay along with them. what possible interest will a dogmatic mullah wish from a plural society-other than that
you dislike liveing with other muslims.
lalitmb
kalundborg, Denmark
Oct 01, 2008 12:00 AM
152
Dear Azeem:

Please answer Ghulam's queries. Only a fellow Muslim can silence him. I do not want to accumulate bad karma by using intemperate language, which his abuse of "others" invariably attracts, in terurn. He is your responsibility, from now onwards.

Let's work on the project earlier mentioned
hindu
Varanasi, India
Oct 01, 2008 12:00 AM
153
Ghulam Faruki:

Please answer the 10 queries below, in depth. If you can not, since you are so afaraid of TRUTH, at least reveal who is paying you to write such trash? (Azeem's Query)?
hindu
Varanasi, India
Oct 01, 2008 12:00 AM
154
Hindu/Bodepudi,

>> I do not want to accumulate bad karma by using intemperate language.

What kind of karma does a professional hate propagandist and habitual liar like you have?
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Oct 02, 2008 12:00 AM
155
To Hindu,
Refer your post;
There is a movement in Turkey to rewrite parts of Koranic texts and tenets. Please find out and tell us more and let's foster the Hindu-Muslim amity, on a daily basis

I have never heard of the Qur'an being altered anywhere.
About the Holy Qur'an, it is clearly stated in it that parts of it are quintessential (the Oneness of God, the Prophets, the angels, the Day of Judgement,etc) and parts are allegorical, ie. situational. Quoting it out of context is certainly incorrect.
I'll give you a real life example; The Qur'an states 'In Mohammed, I (God) has given you the perfect example.' This is what we call 'Sunnat' (ways of the Prophet). By this I understand and follow to the best of my ability, his ways - truth, honesty, love for fellow humans, respect for all faiths and people,etc. Obviously, I cannot literally follow it to the 'T' - I do not speak Arabic, nor wear the Arab dress, nor travel by camel. I am born in a different age and in a different country and, common sense tells me what 'Sunnat' means to me.
Of course, down the ages, we have had Arab hegemony and many fake narrations of the Prophet's life dictated by stupid and criminal people and a right thinking person must certainly question and reject what he believes could never be the Prophet's words.
It is also clearly stated that 'there is no compulsion in religion' and this is the core of my belief - everyone has a right to believe or even not believe in God and again, to quote the book, 'Judgement is wholly Allah's.'
As for Mr. Faruqi, you must have noticed, he and me are invariably on opposing sides of any discussion.
Of course, you,me and all nationalist and secular people are and shall continue to do our best and ,God willing, succeed in rooting out fundamentalism and help usher a timw when all live in peace and respect the other's faith,culture and beliefs.
Azeem Taqi
Nashville, United States
Oct 02, 2008 12:00 AM
156
Azeem,

>> Of course, you,me and all nationalist and secular people are and shall continue to do our best and ,God willing, succeed in rooting out fundamentalism.

Does anyone who takes a different approach from your boot-licking approach deserve to be called anti-nationalist and fundamentalist? If you want to kiss the butts of hate pracharaks like Hindu/Bodepudi it is your business.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Oct 02, 2008 12:00 AM
157
"It is also clearly stated that 'there is no compulsion in religion'" Azeem Taqi

Dear Azeem:

But there was more than compulsion under Islamic PRACTICES-it was worse. The Sindh massacres? Aurangazeb? Ghaznis and Ghoris? Hindu Kush massacres? Kashmir genocides? Over 700 hundred years of genocidal history in Afganistan, Persia, Pakistan, Central Asia and Northern India. When I first read that nearly 80 million Hindus were killed during a 700 hundred year span under Islamic terror, I first thought it was an exaggeration, But after I read few authoritative works, I am more than convinced it was true. First the able bodied men, women and children were slaughered at the first sight of the marauding armies, and then those who were left behind either committed mass suicides or bacame victims of disease since they lost will to live.

"Religion of {Peace": This is the most bogus of the claims ever made in the history of religion, by Islam. Yes, it must be a religion of peace, ato paraphrase Bill Maher, since otherwise you will be killed!

Look at Kashmir? Bangla Desh? Pakistan? Look at what happened to Hindu minorities. I challenge you to investigate the most recent history of ethnic cleansing of Hindus-through compulsion-genocides!

I agree with you on the early phase of Islam during the Mecca years. This had the high spiritual quotient and similar to what Christ and Buddha, in many ways. But the Medina phase was entirely different-it was the most brutal of phases in human history-through compulsion and extreme violence
hindu
Varanasi, India
Oct 02, 2008 12:00 AM
158
Hindu,

>> But the Medina phase was entirely different ..

True, but the simple fact is that there are about a billion and half people in this world who, as part of their strong religious faith, believe that Quran is given by God and believe in the Hadiths for guidance. These texts can be interpreted in a violent way involving continuous wars on the nations to establish Islamic rule. I think the way to deal with this is to somehow try and usher in a Islamic consensus about the merits of secular humanism in public domain/governance with religion in private domain. Muslims living as minorities in non-muslim nations can surely appreciate the merits of secular humanism for rule of law and the scholars/theologians from these places can work for such a consensus. They can also see the impracticality and lack of moral merit in waging wars to impose islamic rule at the point of sword. Then, if the islamic nations slowly move to secular humanist states, that will be a great development.
Kumar
Bangalore, India
Oct 02, 2008 12:00 AM
159
Hindu/Bodepudi (to Azeem),

>> But there was more than compulsion under Islamic PRACTICES.

Only an idiot would blame a religion for the excesses of its followers. And only a moron would engage a hate propagandist like you in a serious debate.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Oct 02, 2008 12:00 AM
160
"Then, if the islamic nations slowly move to secular humanist states, that will be a great development." Kumar

By then, Hindus will be extinct

hindu
Varanasi, India
Oct 02, 2008 12:00 AM
161
>> >> "Then, if the islamic nations slowly move to secular humanist states, that will be a great development." Kumar

>> By then, Hindus will be extinct

I have told you what I see as the problem and the direction of what needs to be done. Why dont you spell out what you see as the problem and what needs to be done?
Kumar
Bangalore, India
Oct 02, 2008 12:00 AM
162
Azeem:

Peter writes in Yale Law (sept 26) that secularism is as alien to Islam as Sharia Law is to America. He writes in depth, and at length. I KNOW this to be true, not a question of "belief"
hindu
Varanasi, India
Oct 02, 2008 12:00 AM
163
"I have told you what I see as the problem and the direction of what needs to be done. Why dont you spell out what you see as the problem and what needs to be done?" Kumar

1 One-child norms, taxing families with mor than two. Jobs and other incentives for families with 2 or less. This should be highly publicized.

2 All places of worship should be multi faith centers. No conversions through bribery and coercion. Freedoms to be left alons

3 Common civil and criminal laws foe ALL Indians. No special status for Kashmir

4 A vote among Hindus whether they want state of their own. If a majority opt for it,so be it with equal rights for all-except no freedoms for jihadis and the books that preach divisions should be disallowed

5 All Sharia Laws & associated organizations to be banned from India

6 Economy based on need-not on greed

hindu
Varanasi, India
Oct 02, 2008 12:00 AM
164
Mishra uses the term "Islamophobia" to describe some of the opponents of Kashmiri independence. "Phobia" denotes an irrational or unreasonable fear of a particular entity. There's nothing irrational about Indian and Hindu concerns and fears about Islamic terror in Kashmir. India has had enough experience with it to justify a legitimate concern.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Oct 02, 2008 12:00 AM
165
Anwar's "approach" is to equate the non-equivalent i.e VHP=Al Qaeda, Bajrang=Taliban, without a thought for context, differences, nuances, past behaviour and motivation. So if someone fails to constantly make that connection, and moreover bring it up every time there is a terrorist attack, he risks being called a bootlicker of the 'Sanghi' organisations.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Oct 02, 2008 12:00 AM
166
"Hindu", very good ideas, and a lot of Indians would agree with them. The question is electing a government that can be strong and resolute enough to carry out these policies. And one that is impervious to the inevitable international criticism that would follow, if the laws are implemented.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Oct 02, 2008 12:00 AM
167
Hindu/Bodepudi,

>> Peter writes in Yale Law (sept 26) that secularism is as alien to Islam as Sharia Law is to America.... I KNOW this to be true.

You will agree with anything adverse about Islam ever written because you are a bigotic hate propagandist besides being an idiot!
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Oct 02, 2008 12:00 AM
168
Varun,

>> Anwar's "approach" is to equate the non-equivalent i.e VHP=Al Qaeda, Bajrang=Taliban, without a thought for context, differences, nuances, past behaviour and motivation.

I make no equations. I am all for facts, evidence and open-ended investigations.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Oct 03, 2008 12:00 AM
169
Religions are essentially different thoughts which came about at different places at different times and all of them have been invariably influenced by the places where they originated. This has happened in case of all religions regardless of the place where they originated. However, one common strain between all of them is: They all want us to be good human beings and at the same time all the religions try to provide a path to salvation. The differences were are there but they are more because of their place of origin, the circumstances, the geography and social milieu in which they originated. In an era where they were working separately in different geographies, it was fine. Conflicts arose when two or three major religions came together, Like in India where all the major religions of the world are there. However in the past, this challenge was also dealt by people in one way or the other. People evolved their own local processes by which they could leave peacefully with each other. There were many processes evolved by them to leave peacefully with each other rather than attacking each other.

Globalisation and the instant transfer of news now places a major challenge to all the religions. The local balances created by the local communities are now falling apart. The different religions have not yet evolved a common milieu. This is resulting in conflicts at global level. This can be finished very quickly if interfaith understanding is fostered and developed at global level. We all need to understand that essentially all the religions are same at macro level and differences can only be at micro level. We need to understand to interact at macro level. Essentially we are all citizens of same universe and to all of us the same global laws are applicable.

Why all the leaders of major religions can’t sit together and ultimately agree on some basis of universalism something which can join all of us and we can then have less conflict. This would easily take away atleast one major point of conflict between people.

India in the past has provided leadership to the world in resolving religious and spiritual matters. Let's do it one more time so that this conflict gets resolved. As a start why can’t our religious leaders in India start this process? This can be a model which entire world can follow. Because if India with the presence of all major religions can do it everybody in the world can do it.
vibhaas
Doha, qatar
Oct 03, 2008 12:00 AM
170
Stopperbhai,

>> You get agitated when ever some non Muslim poster digs at a jihadi.

This would not be a problem if you knew English.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Oct 03, 2008 12:00 AM
171
VIBHAAS, Doha, Qatar
“India in the past has provided leadership to the world in resolving religious and spiritual matters. Let's do it one more time so that this conflict gets resolved. As a start why can’t our religious leaders in India start this process?”

I appreciate your input, Vibhaas.

Within Hinduism, I think of Nanak, Rammohan Roy, Mahavir, and others who gave new direction to the religion. Those who followed them always remained in minority. Hinduism instead honored these great souls as religious leaders with different viewpoint and lived despite centuries of foreign rule. It was then mostly agriculture-based economy with simple folks and limited wants.

In the so called globalization today there are distinct disparities and basic differences in the socio-economic environments. In India and its neighboring countries, there is a sort of social stampede in amassing wealth and its vulgar display (PM) and the casualties are nationalism, social and religious ethics, personal values, and many innocent lives. When young Indians kidnap for hefty ransom or rob a bank or make irresponsible public statements to feed their unholy zeal for contesting elections to join the lucrative political cadres of those ahead of them, we should already know the democracy has been hijacked by criminals. India is crying for leaders who can overhaul the political and bureaucratic make up of the government and create an environment where good things happen. Ours is a great country and its image, as in its glorious past, has to be revived.

Although it played well in favour of the occupying forces before the independence, it was highly desirable, particularly after creation of an Islamic state on religious ground, that we had effective legislation to control and prevent communal disturbances and bring about social awareness and brotherhood among all Indians. It is never too late to have such measures in place and as a start, why can’t our unselfish and true religious leaders start the process.
P. Paul
Kartarpur, India
Oct 04, 2008 12:00 AM
172
ANWAR PATEL USES FINE LANGUAGE WITH A FELLOW MUSLIM (AZEEM):

"If you want to kiss the butts of hate pracharaks like Hindu/Bodepudi it is your business."

You are all for "kissing the butts" of Afghan Muslim jehadis who slit the throats of countless innocent people - fellow Muslims !

You are the lowest garbage there is


Iqbal Z
Pune, India
Oct 04, 2008 12:00 AM
173
"I make no equations. I am all for facts, evidence and open-ended investigations." Ghulam Faruki/Anwar Patel, et al

What investigations you had done, open-ended to boot, on the ethnic cleansing of Hindus in the Kashmir Valley? In Pakistan? Genocide of Hindus in Bangla Desh? Ethnic cleansing of Christians, Jews, Zoroastrians, Parsees, Hindus, Buddhists, Sikhs in the Muslim countries? What investigations you had done on the destruction of tens of thousands of Hindu temples and massacre of millions of them? What happened to Buddhists in Afganistan, Pakistan, Persia, Pakistan, Central Asia and North India?


Why is CAIR accused by two US Senators as having links with terror groups?
hindu
Varanasi, India
Oct 04, 2008 12:00 AM
174
"Peter writes in Yale Law (sept 26) that secularism is as alien to Islam as Sharia Law is to America.... I KNOW this to be true." Hindu in a post his friend, Azeem

"You will agree with anything adverse about Islam ever written because you are a bigotic hate propagandist besides being an idiot!" Ghulam Faruki/Anwar Patel, et al

Where is the open-ended investigation? You never wanted to know who is Paul? You had never read the article? You are indoctrinated by jihadi Islamic texts and tenets and your posts are out-dated by 13+ centuries

hindu
Varanasi, India
Oct 04, 2008 12:00 AM
175
Iqbal/Parbat/Ramdas/Abdullah/Thomas,

>> Afghan Muslim jehadis who slit the throats of countless innocent people.

A cowardly wretch like you would of course badmouth those who bravely fought the mighty Soviet Empire and drove them out of their country.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Oct 04, 2008 12:00 AM
176
Hindu/Bodepudi,

>> What investigations you had done, open-ended to boot....

All one has to do is to read the posts in this forum to know that you are an advocate of murder and genocide, and you are the fraud who tried to post in this forum using my ID. You are also a professional hate merchant.

Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Oct 04, 2008 12:00 AM
177
To Hindu ji,
In response to your mail (quoted below);

Peter writes in Yale Law (sept 26) that secularism is as alien to Islam as Sharia Law is to America. He writes in depth, and at length. I KNOW this to be true, not a question of "belief"

HINDU
VARANASI INDIA

Whatever may be the opinion of the gentleman, Mr. Peter, referred to above, I'll give you a quote (below);

Sir George Bernard Shaw in 'The Genuine Islam,' Vol. 1, No. 8, 1936.

"If any religion had the chance of ruling over England, nay Europe within the next hundred years, it could be Islam."

"I have always held the religion of Muhammad in high estimation because of its wonderful vitality. It is the only religion which appears to me to possess that assimilating capacity to the changing phase of existence which can make itself appeal to every age. I have studied him - the wonderful man and in my opinion far from being an anti-Christ, he must be called the Savior of Humanity."

"I believe that if a man like him were to assume the dictatorship of the modern world he would succeed in solving its problems in a way that would bring it the much needed peace and happiness: I have prophesied about the faith of Muhammad that it would be acceptable to the Europe of tomorrow as it is beginning to be acceptable to the Europe of today."


http://www.cyberistan.o...slamic/quote2.html#shaw


To just about everything - whether it is religion, culture, nationalism, whatever, there will be quotes for and against and holding a quote by anyone as God's word is obviously erroneous.
In the above case, Mr. Peter had his reasons and George Bernard Shaw had his.
Hindu ji, the point I am making is that these to and from quotes are only fanning unneeded feelings of vainness and retribution in turns and serve no useful purpose.
How does the opinion of these people affect the ground situation?
We, the people, need to use the extremely limited resources of our time and energy to educate the misguided and seek ways to unite hearts in ever way we can.

Azeem Taqi
Nashville, United States
Oct 04, 2008 12:00 AM
178
To Hindu ji (continued)
This is in reply to a reply you wrote to my mail (..'there is no compulsion in religion'..)
Sir! I never once justified it. I condemn the genocide as much as you do and vote for equally strict action against terrorists as you do.
Could you suggest anything better that I can do besides speaking out against it publicly and privately and, if put to vote, promising to vote to fight it?
Azeem Taqi
Nashville, United States
Oct 04, 2008 12:00 AM
179
To Anwar Patel,
Refer your post,
Does anyone who takes a different approach from your boot-licking approach deserve to be called anti-nationalist and fundamentalist? If you want to kiss the butts of hate pracharaks like Hindu/Bodepudi it is your business.

Anwar Patel, I never referred to you even indirectly. It was an exchange of ideas only between Hindu ji and me, so why do you have to get so worked up.
You and me may have disagreed any number of times but I have never used incorrect language and wish you too would refrain from doing so.
Azeem Taqi
Nashville, United States
Oct 04, 2008 12:00 AM
180
Dear Azeem Taqi, Why do you waste your time on a wanker like Faruqi? He's confessed that he is a CAIR member and also on the payroll of Congress. He should be ignored and allowed to stew in his own hate-filled juices.
Ajit Tendulkar
Seattle, United States
Oct 04, 2008 12:00 AM
181
Azeem to Hindu/Bodepudi,

>> I condemn the genocide as much as you do.

Hindu/Bodepudi has actrually advocated genocide against Muslims in this forum, you moron!
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Oct 04, 2008 12:00 AM
182
"Hindu/Bodepudi has actrually advocated genocide against Muslims in this forum, you moron!: Ghulam Faruki/Goebbels of the 21st Century

I repeatedly called for prayers for the happiness of ALL beings-you can find hundreds of such posts. You can never find a SINGLE instance where I had advocated GENOCIDE! You are slipping beyond any hope in spreading lies and malicious propaganda.

On the other hand, your activities in supporting terror oraganizations are well known-CAIR!



hindu
Varanasi, India
Oct 04, 2008 12:00 AM
183
Hindu/Bodepudi,

>> You can never find a SINGLE instance where I had advocated GENOCIDE!

You have advocated murder and genocide. As soon as you are confronted about these posts, you right away lie and deny. You were also caught redhanded trying to post messages in this forum using my ID.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Oct 04, 2008 12:00 AM
184
Dear Brother Azeem:

I am glad George Bernard Shaw spoke of "Genuine" Islam which seems conspicuously different in PRACTICE. Did George Bernard Shaw compare Islam textually to other religions? Did he compare it to the barbaric practices of the medieval Christianity? Did he talk of Islamic horrors in India?

Why not look at what happenedin OUR life time, in India, Pakistan and Bangla Desh? Why the ethnic cleansing of Kashmiri Pundits in front of our very eyes? Why are minorities disappearing in Pakistan and in Bangla Desh? Have you studied the history of Jews, Christians, Parsees, Hindus, Buddhists, Ahmediyas, Majlis, Zoroastrians in the now Muslim dominated countries?

Please KINDLY STIUDY IN DEPTH this factor and EDUCATE us as to why ALL minorities practially from ALL Muslim countries, diasppear over time!

Why bomb the Indian cities? Why Godhra? The 9/11 terrorists were quoting from the Koran before they destroyed our very faith in our oft repeated "secular" slogans-All religions are similar. Yes, I know, all faiths are "authentic"-and certainly Islam was so espercially during the Mecca phase.

Next Steps:

1 Let us TRY crafting a road map that can bring peace and social harmony in India-on which I see no differences between us-none at all. Regarding our differences-Pleasestudy history of Islam from the "Infidel" point of view and we will take it up at THAT time.

Road Map:

1 A two child norm with monetary and other incentives-disincentives beyond the first two-with the state raising children beyond the first two, in a truly secular fashion.

2 All places of worship to be converted into multi faith centres

3 Common civil code in India where ALL states have maximum autonomy-and banning of Sharia-related activities and organizations.

4 An in depth discussion and study of organizing our societiesbased on need-not on greed. This is since easier said than done-How?

1 Perhaps the automobile and other polluting industries pay for highways, bike paths and health care needs tied to their activities in a quantitative way.

2 Meat products will be taxed since they cause significant global warming

3 Strict control in population (zero growth) since India is 4-5 times more people than our resources can reaonably support

4 No loud speakers in front of Mosques, Temples or churches

5 Marriage sanctified through one man one wife-principle

6 No recitation of scriptures of any religion that treat people unequally, in every sense of the word


hindu
Varanasi, India
Oct 04, 2008 12:00 AM
185
Dear Brother Azeem:(Edited for spell check)

I am glad George Bernard Shaw spoke of "Genuine" Islam" which seems conspicuously ABSENT, in PRACTICE. Did George Bernard Shaw compare Islam textually to other religions? Did he compare it to the barbaric practices of the medieval Christianity? Did he talk of Islamic horrors in India-with thousands of RECORDED cases of pogroms, rape and plunder?
Why not look at what is happening in OUR life time, in India, Pakistan and Bangla Desh? Why the ethnic cleansing of Kashmiri Pundits in front of our very eyes? Why are minorities disappearing in Pakistan and in Bangla Desh? Have you studied the history of Jews, Christians, Parsees, Hindus, Buddhists, Ahmediyas, Majlis, Zoroastrians in the now Muslim dominated countries? Please answer.
Please KINDLY STIUDY IN DEPTH this MINORITIES factor and EDUCATE us as to why ALL minorities practially from ALL Muslim countries, diasppear over time!
Why bomb the Indian cities? Why Godhra? The 9/11 terrorists were quoting from the Koran before they destroyed our very faith in the oft repeated "secular" slogans that "All religions are same or similar"! All faiths MUST be "authentic" at the beginning-and certainly Islam was so especially during the early Mecca phase of the Prophet.
Let us TRY crafting a road map that can bring peace and social harmony in India-on which I see no MAJOR differences between us. Beofore talikng of differences-Please study history of Islam from the "Infidel" point of view and we will then take up at THAT time.
Road Map:
1 A two child norm with monetary and other incentives-disincentives beyond the first two-with the state raising children beyond the first two, in a truly secular fashion.

2 All places of worship to be converted into multi faith centres

3 Common civil code in India where ALL states shall have maximum autonomy-and banning of Sharia-related activities and organizations.

4 An in-depth discussion and study of organizing our societies based on need-not on greed. This is since easier said than done-How?

1 Perhaps the automobile and other polluting industries pay for highways, bike paths and health care needs tied to their activities in a quantitative way.

2 Meat products will be taxed since they cause significant global warming

3 Strict control in population (zero growth) since India is 4-5 times more people than our resources can reaonably support

4 No loud speakers in front of Mosques, Temples or churches. eligious practices should be personal and hence private-not "communal"

5 Marriage sanctified through one man one wife-principle

6 No recitation of scriptures of any religion that treat people unequally, in every sense of the word



hindu
Varanasi, India
Oct 04, 2008 12:00 AM
186
Hindu/Bodepudi,

Your Road Map addressed to Azeem is just a whitewashed version of your vicious anti-Muslim campaign! Whom are you trying to fool?
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Oct 04, 2008 12:00 AM
187
Stopperbhai,

>> A smaller fool like Hindu/Bodepudi...

Actually he is as big a fool as you are, and equally vicious.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Oct 04, 2008 12:00 AM
188
To Hindu ji, to Anwar Patel, and to Ajit Tendulkar.

To Hindu ji.
I take it that George Bernard Shaw was a great man and his intellectual insight and breadth of knowledge was leagues ahead of me and, of course, what he referred to was the Islam that the Prophet taught and not the crime that took place in its name later and is taking place till today. I explained in a post to you earlier what my core belief as a Muslim is, I believe in God, the Prophet and the Book, and that is my faith, and I bow my head respectfully before every faith,belief and text. Of course, Sir, the mayhem that we are seeing today is pure sin and the crooks use the name of faith which makes it worse. Blaming Islam for Aurangzeb (admitted there were and are many such crooks) is as erroneous as blaming Christianity for Hitler or Hinduism for the crimes committed in the name of the caste system which was established by Shri Manu with a good division of labor in mind and not to look down on others.

To Anwar Patel.
You think the roadmap to peace that Hindu ji and me talk about is a ploy by him? What reason do you have to doubt it? Are his arguments not backed by reality? Is peace and understanding not the best solution?
As regards the Afghan freedom fighters (as Stopperbhai rightly pointed out), they were right so long as they fought for the freedom of their country. It is their morphing into fanatics that is troubling. The Soviets are not their today. So what are they fighting for and whom are they fighting? How can they decide that women should be barred from public life? that education is unnecessary? that killing innocents is called 'Jehad'? Incidentally, the Prophet mentioned (and so did Jesus) that the greatest 'Jehad' (battle) is the one within a person where the good battles the evil. I am sure every single religion has this concept in it.

To Ajit Tendulkar.
You are right, friend. I should not take Anwar Patel/ Faruqi's language to heart. He is opposed to virtually everyone on the forum and if he has decided not to see reason and call right, right and wrong ,wrong,God help him. As is well said, you can wake up him who is sleeping but not him who pretends to be sleeping.

I am sure he will respond with more foul language but I shall not respond, the above post to him certainly being my last to him.
Azeem Taqi
Nashville, United States
Oct 04, 2008 12:00 AM
189
Azeem,

>> Is peace and understanding not the best solution?

Peace and understanding are the farthest things from Hindu/Bodepudi's mind. He has called again and again for the closure of all mosques, eradication of Islam, bringing down population ratios to pre-1947 levels, and has also mentioned murdering imams and carrying out genocide against Muslims.

>> It is their morphing into fanatics that is troubling.

It is the vacuum created in Afghanistan after the collapse of the Communist government that allowed Talibanism to raise its ugly head. To smear the freedom fighters now, and to try to detract from their achievement is just a malicious ploy, and it is without any tangible purpose.

You may carry on your boot-licking shenanigans. However when they become intolerable, I shall respond with the language that boot-lickers deserve.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Oct 04, 2008 12:00 AM
190
"To Anwar Patel.
You think the roadmap to peace that Hindu ji and me talk about is a ploy by him? What reason do you have to doubt it? Are his arguments not backed by reality? Is peace and understanding not the best solution?
As regards the Afghan freedom fighters (as Stopperbhai rightly pointed out), they were right so long as they fought for the freedom of their country. It is their morphing into fanatics that is troubling. The Soviets are not their today. So what are they fighting for and whom are they fighting? How can they decide that women should be barred from public life? that education is unnecessary? that killing innocents is called 'Jehad'? Incidentally, the Prophet mentioned (and so did Jesus) that the greatest 'Jehad' (battle) is the one within a person where the good battles the evil. I am sure every single religion has this concept in it." Azeem Taqi

Dear Azeem: We collectively wasted much time & effort talking to this fanatic. You are absolutely correct-you can't awaken those pretending to be asleep.

Soon after the Gujarat tragedy, few of us published an article condemning the Modi administration for the excesses. At a Pakistan National Day I confronted the Pakistani Consul, the Chief guest, regarding the ethnic cleansing of Hindus and Christians in Pakistan. Every one at the table, barring ONLY the Chief guest-The Pakistani Consul, supported me (some covertly) Perhaps they were Shias and not a SINGLE Pakistani Christian was present at the function.

Let's forgive Faruki since he is UNAWARE. Otherwise, he would not be so fanatically supporting CAIR who consistently side with pro-terrorist elements in the US. It's most important that we keep alert against terrorism and against its open and secret supporters. AWARENESS is the best cure against UNENDING Jihadi terror.

Hindus must be MADE aware of their past as otherwise they CERTAINLY will have no future. Despite the prayers and the best wishes of 90-95% of Muslim brothers and sisters, Hindus were murdered in their millions and practically disappeared from the K Valley. Buddhists fared far worse. It is, therefore, critically important that we keep keep writing articles on the points we agree on, and disseminate widely. We can exchange eails at a later date and draft a joint letter (with many others) to be widely distributed, for peace and social harmony in India and in the world at large
hindu
Varanasi, India
Oct 04, 2008 12:00 AM
191
Hindu/Bodepudi,

>> Let's forgive Faruki since he is UNAWARE.

I don't need your forgiveness, and I am aware that you are a despicable hate pracharak.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Oct 04, 2008 12:00 AM
192
faruki

be nice, and polite to the members of ths forum.

is that not what the prophet taught by example.

take up the fun loveing western ways of liveing. some sporting activities,never mind if its just ludo.

a glass of wine, will be good for you too,
just once a day.

do a few good acts ever day. feed the pidgeons in
the park. help the less fortunate- there will not be too many in this category.

good week end.
lalitmb
kalundborg, Denmark
Oct 04, 2008 12:00 AM
193
Lalit,

>> be nice, and polite to the members of ths forum.

I am nice and polite with those who are nice and polite.

Good night.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Oct 05, 2008 12:00 AM
194
To Hindu ji,

It is, therefore, critically important that we keep keep writing articles on the points we agree on, and disseminate widely
HINDU
VARANASI INDIA

Yes Sir! We and like minded people shall consistently do our utmost to find solutions to do away with hatred and prejudice and instill love and understanding, both on this forum and wherever else we can.
In this context, I'd like to quote the great Rev. Martin Luther King Jr. who said it so well, ' Either we live together as brothers or die together as fools.'
No sane and right thinking person can deny that failure in an issue of such import is not an option. Peace and harmony must prevail - for the good of all, and evil must be destroyed - for the good of all good people.
Azeem Taqi
Nashville, United States
Oct 05, 2008 12:00 AM
195

ANWAR PATEL

YOU ARE A DESPISED ISLAMIST FANATIC ON THIS SITE.

EVEN A FELLOW MUSLIMHAS SEEN WHAT A LOUSY FELLOW YOU ARE. SEE WHAT HE SAYS -

To Ajit Tendulkar.
You are right, friend. I should not take Anwar Patel/ Faruqi's language to heart. He is opposed to virtually everyone on the forum and if he has decided not to see reason and call right, right and wrong ,wrong,God help him. As is well said, you can wake up him who is sleeping but not him who pretends to be sleeping.

I am sure he will respond with more foul language but I shall not respond, the above post to him certainly being my last to him.

AZEEM TAQI
Iqbal Z
Pune, India
Oct 05, 2008 12:00 AM
196
Iqbal/Parbat/Ramdas/Abdullah/Thomas,

>> EVEN A FELLOW MUSLIM HAS SEEN WHAT A LOUSY FELLOW YOU ARE.

Being the measly-mouthed coward that you are, you use the words of others to take digs at me! If both Hindus and Muslims want to fight with me, I must be doing something right. If villains like you try to smear me, I am ecstatic.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Oct 05, 2008 12:00 AM
197
azeem

i fail to understand how a many liveing in the usa for long, reading books on everything except
tibetan cooking, can be so irrational, biased,
pompous, and full of hateful bilge.

if one wants to find an explanation for the failure of muslims in india and else where then
the explanation is that there are so many faruki,s and so few azeems.

to all muslims i would say ,ignore what ever hostility or bias you face, you owe to it yourself and especially your children to make
a mark of your self.

jews and some blacks have done it in usa, hindus
have done it usa and elsewhere. all of these faced enormous prejudices, but they did not take to a policy of blameing others and giveing thems selves an excuse to stay backward.

why have muslims not managed to make one prestgious modern university or hospital. who is
stopping them.

and muslims do not face discrimination in southern states, bihar,bengal, up, and delhi.

here they are as well looked forward as endanangered species.

people like faruki should be, but never will be
able to do any thing for their own community.

the evidence is there for all to see.
lalitmb
kalundborg, Denmark
Oct 05, 2008 12:00 AM
198
How to stop terrorism and stop religion being used as a power tool in India

Religion works at two levels one is for spiritual upliftment and salvation which is good and is a common thread in all religions. However, there is another level and that is where is starts going wrong. It is used as a power tool. People use this as one of the major tools of identification with their own. This gives an easy tool to the ruling bodies of all religions and politicians to use as a power tool. This allows them to mobilise people behind themselves on the basis of religion. This results in so many conflicts. There had been plenty of religious wars in the past because of this. It is one of the reasons of terrorism which the world faces now as it allows people to be misguided based on their religious identity to attack others.

India's history makes the whole thing a bit complicated. Muslims ruled for around 6 centuries and then were followed by Christians. During their rule both of them used their power to convert the natives. [The conversions have not stopped as lot of funding still continues from outside]. At the time of creating our freedom our leader’s defacto agreed a special status for minorities in India. That is what secularism in India was. A special status for minorities was enshrined in our constitution. Hindus Right was never happy about it and that is what resulted in the assassination of Mahatma Gandhi. The Hindus expected their motherland to be given back to them after independence or at least the primacy of their religion restored. They were not happy with the special status for the minorities. Muslims and Christians were not happy about losing their power status. The power struggle still continues.

Muslims and Christians get huge funding from outside to promote these religions in India as these religions are strong outside and are backed by strong economic powers and the whole thing results in conflicts. Everybody feels threatened, Hindus feel threatened as conversions are seen by them as an attempt to reduce their majority. Presence of largely Islamic Pakistan and Bangladesh as neighbours hasn’t helped as they want to meddle in our country and this has given a basis to the Islamic terrorism in India with full support of these countries. Whenever there is backlash, there is violence. We need to do something to become a truly secular country, reduce conflict and make our country a place where we can respect all religions. This will remove the religious fault lines between us and when there are no fault lines, so that relegious identity cannot be used as a power tool. This will stop terrorism and eliminate violence in the name of religion.
vibhaas
Doha, qatar
Oct 05, 2008 12:00 AM
199
We need to work at two levels:

• Following needs to happen immediately to stop the usage of religion as a power tool:

- Ban on all funding from outside India for any religion. The conversions should stop. Also it is one of the major reasons why so many funds are channelled for conversions. The channelling of funds by any religion is not helping anybody. It is only increasing hatred and violence. World has already witnessed that in many places. Now we are seeing in India.

- Take stern measures to deal with any external interference especially in the name of religion and specifically by neighbours.


- We need to secure our borders, limit infiltration from all sides to practically zero and reduce influence of our neighbours through infiltration in India.

- Have zero tolerance for violence by anybody in any form. Immediate and drastic punishment needs to be imparted.

- The State should become totally neutral and have no religious leanings hence no funding for any religious institution, no support for any religious activity, no religious holidays. Have a pool of 10 holidays and people take them as they want. Only National holidays need to be common. The last one might be too radical but follow the path of Turkey and now France not allowing anybody to wear any religious symbols. This is important as these are utilised as identifiers and are big creators of faultlines.

- All instruments of state have to be perfectly neutral including police.

• Further, we need to create common denominators between all religions. We all need to understand that essentially all the religions are same at macro level and differences can only be at micro level. We need to understand to interact at macro level. Essentially we are all citizens of same universe and to all of us the same universal laws are applicable.

Religions are essentially different thoughts which came about at different places at different times and all of them have been invariably influenced by the places where they originated. This has happened in case of all religions regardless of the place where they originated. However, one common strain between all of them is: They all want us to be good human beings and at the same time all the religions try to provide a path to salvation. The differences are there but they are more because of their place of origin, the circumstances, and the geography and social milieu in which they originated. In an era where they were working separately in different geographies, it was fine.

India in the past has provided leadership to the world in resolving religious and spiritual matters. Let's do it one more time so that this conflict gets resolved. As a start why can’t our religious leaders in India start this process? This can be a model which entire world can follow. Because if India with the presence of all major religions can do it everybody in the world can do it.

If we don't do it then we shall continue to have situations where religion will be used as a tool for politics and power play in our country. If we want our country to take its place in the major nations, we need to stop the influence of religion on our politics and become a truly secular country. This will eliminate a major basis on which we fight with each other, further we shall also eliminate any basis for terrorism as the religious faultlines shall be stopped from being exploited.
vibhaas
Doha, qatar
Oct 05, 2008 12:00 AM
200
Lalit (to Azeem),

>> can be so irrational, biased,
pompous, and full of hateful bilge.

Can you give examples of my being irrational, biased, pompous and hateful? You have never given any examples of your wild accusations, which are merely projections of your own being bigotic, hateful and close-minded while living in Europe for so many years. You have been stupid enough in the past to say that the simple fact that I am a Muslim is proof of my being backward, but then Azeem, to whom you addressed your post, is perhaps even a more devout Muslim than I am! I am anti-Sangh and anti-BJP, but so are millions of Hindus, Muslims, Christians and Sikhs.

You just don't know what you are talking about!
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Oct 16, 2008 12:00 AM
201
16/10/08

"Is it too late to unshackle the ‘idea of India’ from a repressive Indian state and its callous elite?"

What does this character want? Does he want the Indian state to be withdrawn and allow the country to go the Taliban way? He is crazy.
Proud Hindu
Los Angeles, United States
Mar 24, 2009 12:00 AM
202
This is BS
Himanshu Rajgor
New York, United States
Mar 24, 2009 12:00 AM
203
Male Arundhati Roy strikes back with another article on Kashmir. Let him first apologize for his past article on Sikh massacre before I could cl
Maha
NJ, United States
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