Mohd. Jaffer/ Snaps India
I Bharat: Indian Americans celebrate I-Day on Madison Ave, NY
nri mantra
The Good War
Unbeknownst to us, the NRI has taken on the battle for Bharat. A fight for souls is on.
What Gets The NRI Worked Up
  • India's negative portrayal in the western press before it became an economic success story. Articles about cows, caste system, corruption were front-page news.
  • Pro-Pak policies of the US in the '80s, including tacit acceptance of missile transfers from China to Pakistan
  • Promiscuity in the American society at large and the need to protect Hindu cultural values back home
  • Any questioning of Pokhran II, the Gujarat violence or the trinity of Modi-Advani-Vajpayee
  • 'Pseudosecular' media's soft treatment of Sonia Gandhi
  • The perceived support by Indian Muslims for the Pakistani cricket team

***

Their essential thesis goes thus—Bharat is besieged from within and without, it is maligned and abused, and it must rise to defend itself.
 
 
"The American NRIs let their fears about cultural loss come to the fore and find expression in a form of cultural chauvinism." Sumit Ganguly, Indiana University
 
 
As soldiers stationed abroad, they wage the daily battle via the internet to defend all things Hindu, preposterous or perfunctory, ludicrous or legitimate. In the end, logic takes a backseat to hate and wisdom marks a striking absence. Chat rooms, message boards, blogs, petitions, protests and e-mails generated by the Hindutva-bathed Non-Resident Indians in America burn with an angry nationalism, a hypersensitive edge and a general sense of victimhood. Is there any method in the madness?

Their story begins in the Golden Age of the Vedas when all knowledge emanated in Bharat, from zero to infinity. It was nurtured by the good men and spread by them to the barbaric rest. Debate and democracy came naturally to us. Astronomy and economics were understood while others were roaming the jungles. Even women sages were welcome. The caste system was merely division of labour and gems were falling off the robes of kings for the less fortunate.
 
 
"Is it just noise? Would anything in the Indian political scene change if these (hate) groups were not there? I don't think so." Pratap Bhanu Mehta, Centre for Policy Research
 
 
This era without errors abruptly ended with the invaders, all terribly Muslim and plundering. They wreaked havoc with Bharat, stayed on to rule, converted and coerced at will. Lying, cheating, Mir Jaffers all.

You want to talk about Modern Times. One name should suffice—Pakistan—that warring home of a terrorist nation, which cannot accept that a Hindu king voted Kashmir into India. Started three wars against Bharat, got defeated but still continues to slash with a thousand cuts, killing innocents with bicycle bombs. Even the gullible Americans now know that all terrorists have a Pakistan address at least once their active life. Pakistan has corrupted Bangladesh too with its terror ideology and sleeper cells all working against India. They breed, and talk of Lebensraum, that Hitleresque idea of demanding "living space", slowly seeping into India, migrating illegally by the millions. "Awake, you Hindu," goes the cry.

The most rabid website—HinduUnity.org—complete with a "hit list" of all the enemies of Hinduism and their dripping blood was run by Rohit Vyasmaan of Queens, NY. Advertised as the official website of the Bajrang Dal, it was reportedly registering 17,000 hits a day when it was blocked in 2001 under orders from Mumbai police only to be temporarily revived with the help of another rabid group, the extremist Jewish Kahane movement, in the name of "common suffering" at the hands of Muslims. Vyasmaan proudly told the New York Times his financial backers included a man from Long Island who struck the hammer at the Babri Masjid in '92. He and many others were expecting to die in the battle for Hindu supremacy.

The NRI psyche began throbbing with anger somewhere in the 1980s when "cross-border terrorism" crippled normalcy in Kashmir and thousands died in the proxy war. The soldier abroad was frustrated at mighty Bharat's inability to take "decisive action". The plight of the Kashmiri Pandits touched him deeply. Then came the BJP government in Delhi and the anger found articulation, morphing into hate speech and laying bare a distinct anti-Muslim slant. The communication revolution of the internet helped distribute the anger.

But mostly the NRI rants consist of pseudo-statistics and mendacious arguments, alarmist declarations—geography is demography—and phony fears. Nothing is too "iffy" to field, no claim too audacious. The massacre of 2,000 mostly Muslim citizens of Gujarat was a "spontaneous" outpouring of anger because of the senseless killing of Hindu pilgrims in Godhra. Call Narendra Modi to America and he can explain it all. Except, the US government refused Modi a visa in 2005 under pressure from a coalition of rights activists, Christian missionaries, Muslim associations and secular groups. What an insult, cried the Hindutva votaries, to deny a legitimately elected CM a visit. But they didn't do more given the delicacy of their own visa situations. Green cards in process, H1B being extended or awaiting citizenship—couldn't jeopardise that.


Don't cross: Muslim Indians protest outside the Indian consulate in NY during the Gujarat riots

The Hindutva-sworn NRI does his bit where he can. He methodically creates websites, alerts the community about upcoming Hindu festivals, explains the pantheon, offers online courses on Sanskrit and Vedic Mathematics and even creates Hindu e-cards. He regularly looks for ways to wangle legitimate invitations for parivar spokesmen from universities and sundry associations innocent of India but looking to educate themselves. He not only donates his time but also dollars to the cause back home. Organisations linked to the VHP, RSS and the BJP are often the beneficiaries. He likes that. After all, uncountable amounts flow into India from Christian and Muslim charities. Sumit Ganguly, professor at Indiana University, who has been at the receiving end of the Hindu ire, says, "They let their fears about cultural loss come to the fore and find expression in a form of cultural chauvinism," He was constantly heckled in New York while on a 2001 tour to promote his book on Indo-Pak relations. The Hindutva crowd got a massive injection from India post-Ayodhya and a BJP government in Delhi and the "social and intellectual climate in India made it possible to air views that were previously anathema and the Indians abroad felt they could now join this unholy chorus".

I myself saw the transformation of a college friend from Delhi University, who landed in New York in the early '80s never to return, from a regular Dylan/Stones-listening, adventure-loving woman into a strident Hindutva-spouting virago. She read copiously on the internet, learnt Sanskrit during the holidays and bought into the whole myth of the majority being treated as the minority in India. She began looking for traces of anti-Hindu bias in the articles I wrote from Washington, berating and sending links galore.

It's true that hundreds of extremist Muslim websites, including some created specially for women, spread even more hate, teach terror and generally lash out at the "infidels". It is also true that the lefty crowd generally feels constrained calling them on it. It defends all manner of retrograde declarations in the name of "religious sensitivity". When an Indian-born Muslim woman took up the fight to pray alongside men in the mosque, there was little support either from the larger South Asian academic world or from women in general.

One must remember, however, that the NRIs reflect the same bandwidth of opinion as Indians back home, from the right to the left, from mild nationalism to the rabid, from the merely questioning to the always emphatic and everything in between. And Hindutvawalas are just a part of the larger NRI community, now 1.3 million strong. But they are noticeable because they are loud and often obnoxious. Also true that globally all religions are resurgent from the Vatican to Mecca, from Jerusalem to Jeddah so why would Hinduism buck the trend and not grab space in the public square of opinion? As to the question of how influential they are, it is hard to say.

Pratap Bhanu Mehta, an eminent Indian analyst and president of the Centre for Policy Research, asks, "Is it just noise? Would anything in the Indian political scene change if these groups were not there? I don't think so." He warns against jumping to alarmist conclusions. "As Indian politics has got more polarised, so has Indian opinion both at home and abroad." And yes, the Sangh parivar systematically cultivates links with NRIs through various groups. The donations and the influence are both welcome.

Biju Mathew, associate professor at Rider University, NY, who has battled the Hindutva brigade for years, says, "Religion has been forced into the equation of nationalism, sometimes as the defining element or as a strong second layer, as being Christian has now become part of American nationalism. But it turns pathological when you look at the third transformation, which occurs in people who identify with a specific territorial space but don't live in it anymore."


An Incredible India campaign bus in Manhattan

"They face many contradictions—a liberal, pluralist India vs a Hindu India, the guilt of having left the country they claim they love. And finally the demand to be "American", which means giving up a certain set of markers about their original identity. They are forced to push their Hinduness or their Muslimness, for that matter, into the private spaces, creating a sense of siege," Mathew says. In a study of the Hindu right-wing in the US completed in 2000, the author exposed how the Maryland-based India Development and Relief Fund (IDRF) was actually sending NRI donations to many RSS-affiliated groups in India, some of which were directly involved in violence against Muslims and Christians in three states. While the IDRF claimed to be a charity organisation and enjoyed tax-exempt status under US laws, it violated the rules which prohibit charities from funnelling money to sectarian groups.

"More than 50 per cent of the funds disbursed by the IDRF are sent to Sangh-related organisations whose primary work is religious 'conversion' and 'Hinduisation' in poor and remote tribal and rural areas of India. Another sixth is given to Hindu religious organisations for purely religious use. Only about a fifth of the funds go for disaster relief and welfare—most of it because the donors specifically designated it so," the report found. The amounts raised by IDRF are not small. Since the early '90s, it has raised over $2 million while the Hindu Heritage Endowment has collected $2.6 million.

While taking care of the flock back home, the Hindutva believers also concentrate on the young, throwing a nationwide net of Hindu Students Councils across US university campuses to "provide opportunities to learn about Hindu heritage and culture" and "foster awareness of issues affecting Hindus". The inductees may be unaware that the hsc is a VHP baby. No less a person than Ashok Singhal, now the VHP president but then the general secretary, called the hsc his most important overseas project in '93.

The hsc website offers the Dharma life project, the Samskar newsletter, a Hindu Women project and even NetSeva to students. The activities are designed to reduce the burden of being the "other" which sometimes gets too heavy to bear, once the miracle of arrival on American shores is already absorbed and digested. The cavernous aisles of mega stores become humdrum, the freedom to drive uninterrupted from "sea to shining sea" feels routine and the crisp skyscrapers no longer shock and awe. Meanwhile, the essential loneliness of life in the west has begun encroaching. The tug is powerful and the diaspora desperate. It seeks affirmation in a thousand contradictions, creates an order of battle on the Net, to fight the "good war" for India.

The tactics of the Hindutva brigade can be transparently intimidating. In the 11 years of journalism in Washington, I witnessed incidents that left me wondering if the academic freedom in US varsities was being misused to spread hate. Once at the University of Maryland while attending a speech by a BJP leader, the event ended in a meltdown after a student dared to question the perfectly made-up image of India. A seething office-bearer of the Overseas Friends of the BJP was at his throat shouting, "What do you know about India?" I wrote about it in The Telegraph, earning the wrath of the saffron brigade and blacklisting from future events.

Fast forward to September '04 when RSS spokesman Ram Madhav was invited by two prominent US varsities to give a talk on 'How India Views its Neighbours'. The wisdom of giving a platform to Madhav was questioned by many but in the end, the need for providing a plurality of views won. Madhav talked of the rate of reproduction of South Asia's Muslims and how it threatened Hindu India. An army of RSS supporters confronted student activists opposed to Madhav's presence, tore up fliers, even threatened to sick the fbi on them.

This battle is joined by Indian secularists, liberals, leftists, academics and others abroad who resent the narrow and history-denying presentation of India. Groups such as Campaign to Stop Funding Hate, Friends of Indian Leftists and NRIs for a Secular and Harmonious India counter the onslaught as best as they can. There's much hand-wringing but as Ganguly says, "Few are prepared to enter the public arena, speak in a language that addresses the anxieties and fears of large numbers of Indians and Indian-Americans, however strange it may seem to liberal intellectuals. Fashionable left-wing and post-modernist jargon that heaps contempt on the rest has to be avoided."

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Daily Mail
COLLAPSE COMMENTS :
HAVE YOUR SAY
Jan 18, 2009 12:00 AM
255
As diverse India is, the Indian diaspora outside is also diverse the same way. Everyone has their opinion, same as you do. It just makes no sense in tying up everyone in one bundle and you make money of them.

Come up with something better than ranting.


steve
hyderabad, India
Aug 17, 2008 12:00 AM
254
Lalit,

>> iran, saudi arabia are governed under islamic laws. that makes islam a political idealogy.

Islam is a religion. Political ideology is derived from its practice and from Islamic history. Political ideology can be shed, in spite of stupid mullas and stupid Bagais screaming that it can't. After all, Hindusim is not the same as Manuvad, is it? But why should an empty-headed bigot like you concern yourself with such matters?
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Aug 17, 2008 12:00 AM
253
faruki

stop dreaming.

you mullahs are not going to change. the world
has given up on you.

but nil desperandum.

you have a billion muslims you can have fun with.
lalitmb
kalundborg, Denmark
Aug 16, 2008 12:00 AM
252
I can understand what the author is trying to say. But I think he belongs to the intellegentsia of the fourth pillar of Indian democracy that prides itself in Hindu bashing. We all wish we had a truly secular India - like the United States. Nobody wants a 'Hindu India'. Just, an India where everybody is treated equally - even the majority. Not an India where the Prime Minister says that muslims must have first access to resources, not an India where religion based quotas are becoming a reality, not an India where a Shah Bano has no benefit from a SC judgement because a minority appeasing PM overturns it with a constitutional amendment and follows up with meddling with the Babri Masjid, not an India where a foreign born roman catholic can print "christian crosees" on Indian currency and keep fedex-ing state secrets to Italy. So, yes, as an NRI, I'm proud to counter the onslaught by minority appeasing traitors. In the US, being part of the minority group, I do not want any freebies from the Government. I will and must earn my bread. I'm proud of the equality in the United States - the kind of patriotism amongs the politicians. I dont find anything like that in India. I don't feel ashamed that I have moved out of India. A diaspora is a necessity too - in terms of whatever contributions it makes. But as an Indian who believes in the American values of freedom and liberty to all, I will do my bit in bringing awareness to everyone about how badly the majority (and in warranted cases, the minority)is being treated in India; about how anything pro-Hindu is called communal and anything pro-muslim/minority is called 'secular'. We all wish we didnt have such problems. We all want to have best relations with our Christian, Muslim and Jewish friends. But I have realized that I'm no Alice and India is no wonderland. We are not fighting Muslims or Christians (I have friends from all communities and I'm very proud of them). We are fighting the powers that actualy separate us based on religious lines and are not fighting a battle to 'Hindu-ise' India. Atleast, I'm not doing that - becasue, the day India stops being secular, it will mean the end of the nation. We must remember that there are Hindu extremist organisations too. We dont want to turn India into a Hindu Pakistan - and thereby giving every terrorist an Indian address. What we are fighting for is EQUALITY - but the media prefers Hindu bashing.
Ashwin
Jersey City, United States
Aug 16, 2008 12:00 AM
251
Lalit,

>> my families experience with muslims says it all. should we thank former neighbours,employess forkilling members of the family, driveing us out from our homes.

Such incidents have to be deplored, but they do not characterize any one community or any one country. Muslims in Kosovo, Serbia and Treblenka suffered similar atrocities. Even this week Ottesians are inflicting pains on Georgians as the following article reports. But I do understand and empathize with what your family went through. I am sure you must have read Khushwant Singh's "Train to Pakistan".


http://www.nytimes.com/...15ethnic.html?ref=world

Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Aug 16, 2008 12:00 AM
250
Pal/Bodepudi,

I said to you, "It is the kind of unashamed lie that malicious hate propagandists like you need to perpetuate your vicious agenda." You tried to apply it to me. Show me a single post in which I have expressed hate for Hindus, Buddhists or Jews. Over 95% of your posts try to create anti-Muslim hatred.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Aug 16, 2008 12:00 AM
249
Yakoob/Parbat/Ramdas/Abdullah/Thomas,

>> Churchill was trying to Nazify Britain by leading it to fight Nazis !

Churchill made no attempt to change Britain like what the sanghis' and VHP's Hindutva agenda is trying to do to Hinduism. Your denseness is a put-on job that fails to mask your venom.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Aug 16, 2008 12:00 AM
248
Pal/Bodepudi,

>> My view of islam is that it is not so much a "religion" as it is an ideology.

My view of you is that you are a bigot and an idiot. Your impassioned activity in this forum suggests that you must be consumed by hatred.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Aug 16, 2008 12:00 AM
247
faruki

you obviouly wish that hindus remained passive and nonviolent as in the past. this would be to advantage of muslims. so naturally you are angered that the rss is attempting to harden attitudes of hindus. anyway no where does the hindu religion promote passiveness. the
mahabharata is all about fighting for what is right.

kuldip nayar has written an account of the kashmir story in dawn - he places a lot of the blame on fundamentalist and extremist kashmir
muslims. that came as a srprise to me.

as far as i am concerned i am neither surprised or disappointed with attitudes of mainstream muslim parties in the valley. i have never had any illusions about them.

secularism and plural societies are great. however it needs all communities in them to have liberal attitudes.

your own account of muslims in india was not very
optimistic. " The fortress of Islam is in the hands of extremists. The liberals are nascent, and the moderates are silent"

The Congress party has done all it could to
bring them into the mainstream, and it has failed. They remain doggedly in the side lines.
Same story as that of muslims in Pakistan.

Anyway-its independence day. Cheer up and have a
beer.
lalitmb
kalundborg, Denmark
Aug 16, 2008 12:00 AM
246
Lalit,

>> you obviouly wish that hindus remained passive and nonviolent as in the past. this would be to advantage of muslims.

I want both Muslims and Hindus to be non-violent. They do not have to be passive. They have to be assertive in pursuit of communal harmony.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Aug 16, 2008 12:00 AM
245
ashwin

i consider my self to be modern and get on well with europeans, americans and asians.

however i have had problems with muslim indians, who i went far to please. they are so hung up on religion, that one careless remark, and the relationship breaks down.

i regret this ofcource, but i just can not help saying things, some times quite provacative.

india will become a nation when most indians
dump religion, embrace modernism, free speech,
and lead uncomplicated but rich cultural lives.

i am always happy to see young indians playing
sports, enjoying music, theatre and to hell with
religion.
lalitmb
kalundborg, Denmark
Aug 16, 2008 12:00 AM
244
shri ganesan

well said.

indeed not being biased against some idealogies
shows one to be without feelings .

i am against certain idealogies. but obviously i am in favour of others.

its absurd to demand that i should criticise all.
lalitmb
kalundborg, Denmark
Aug 16, 2008 12:00 AM
243
ashok krshnamoorthy

well said pal.

hindus society is slowly but surely getting rid of its dark stains, such as caste, inequality of women. there are many new laws to protect women.
many new laws to help dalits, obc,s.
lalitmb
kalundborg, Denmark
Aug 16, 2008 12:00 AM
242
If anyone has any doubts that Hindu paper is the Indian version of Xinhua news agency, one has to read this


http://www.hindu.com/20...es/2008081654291100.htm


The writer defends the fake opening ceremony and she gets into a philosophical discussion of what is authentic and what is not. Shameful.
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Aug 16, 2008 12:00 AM
241
Lalit >> indeed not being biased against some idealogies shows one to be without feelings.

That is not a well reasoned argument and makes no sense. I am telling based on what he claimed as an agnostic, now you are making a sweeping statement too. Saying something like "one to be without feelings" would be patently untrue and you know it. I am against all religions and feel strongly about it, however, I do not complain the way some of the people here do it. I do not complain against Islam alone. I never deny the problems in Islam, in fact, I acknowledge and wonder what it will take to change them. However, I am also looking at other religions and their problems and wonder when they will be removed, that is fair surely.

Problems in religions have been removed by great leaders in the past. I guess that this may not happen easily now. I suspect that now religions may just gradually disappear as other issues become more important to the younger generation. While this is good, the two side problems with this are - it will take longer for the problems of religion to go away and it will happen faster in urban than in the rural areas.
Prakash
San Francisco, United States
Aug 16, 2008 12:00 AM
240
prakash

johann hari has written an erticle in the english news paper-the independent-

the article will clear up the cobwebs in your
mind. you have a talent for makeing simple things complicated. heaven knows how you handle complicated things.
lalitmb
kalundborg, Denmark
Aug 16, 2008 12:00 AM
239
Prakash
>>If you criticize one religion and claim to be an agnostic, then sorry, you are not unbiased. People think that Hinduism is reformed by seeing the cities and most people here are from the cities, I would recommend them to go to the rural places in Bihar and see for themselves how things are. It has a long way to go. There is nothing wrong in criticizing a religion for its mistakes. Rajaram Mohan Roy did that and did his best to remove the Sati system.>>

You seem more like a muslim posing like a hindu with your biased views and I am sorry i am not interested in explain what "unbiased" means to a biased person like you. neither is there a need to explain to a biased person like you why someone needs to be unbiased.

I don't fight with pigs. they like getting dirty. rot in your promised hell filled with 72 hos.
ashok krihnamoorthy
columbia, United States
Aug 16, 2008 12:00 AM
238
Lalit >> the article will clear up the cobwebs in your mind. you have a talent for makeing simple things complicated. heaven knows how you handle complicated things.

Lalit, I have no cobwebs in my brain. You have no idea what I do, so give up. May be I am wrong about things, but I ask you to use good argument. What you have posted makes no good sense to me. At least have the sense the post the link to the article.
Prakash
San Francisco, United States
Aug 16, 2008 12:00 AM
237
Ashok Krihnamoorthy >> You seem more like a muslim posing like a hindu with your biased views and I am sorry i am not interested in explain what "unbiased" means to a biased person like you. neither is there a need to explain to a biased person like you why someone needs to be unbiased.

That is what I call a well reasoned argument. Kudos to you. Questions for you, if I was a muslim, why would I say that I am an atheist? Why dont you fight with pigs, they are pretty good animals. Do you know something, it is one of the most intelligent animals.
Prakash
San Francisco, United States
Aug 16, 2008 12:00 AM
236
"You seem more like a muslim posing like a hindu with your biased views" AK

Since they are his views, personal, it akes no difference whether one is a Hindu or a Muslim. There is, of course, the problem with Islam as a political ideology that devasted Hindus for centuries, with its primitive dogma and hatred of Infidels, and which it still does with its terror sanctified by the Koranic texts and tenets
Pal
Hong Kong, United States
Aug 16, 2008 12:00 AM
235
You seem more like a muslim posing like a hindu with your biased views" AK

Since they are his views, personal, it makes no difference whether one is a Hindu or a Muslim. There is, of course, the problem with Islam as a political ideology that devastated Hindus for centuries, with its primitive dogma and hatred of Infidels, and which it still does with its terror sanctified by the Koranic texts and tenets

Pal
Hong Kong, United States
Aug 16, 2008 12:00 AM
234
Pal/Bodepudi,

>> There is, of course, the problem with Islam as a political ideology....

There is of course the problem with you as a hate-filled bigot and a liar.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Aug 16, 2008 12:00 AM
233
"While this is good, the two side problems with this are - it will take longer for the problems of religion to go away and it will happen faster in urban than in the rural areas."

With growing urbanization and with terrorism confined to cities, at least since the 9/11, this statement looks so far out!

Pal
Hong Kong, United States
Aug 16, 2008 12:00 AM
232
"There is of course the problem with you as a hate-filled bigot and a liar." Anwar Faruki, speaking the language os Islam, full of hatred and untruths

Pal
Hong Kong, United States
Aug 16, 2008 12:00 AM
231
"There is, of course, the problem with Islam as a political ideology...."

Islam is deeply wedded to politics right from the days of Prophet.

And it was Iqbal who said that communism plus Allah equals Islam.
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Aug 16, 2008 12:00 AM
230
As reports indicate, the patriotic kashmiris hosted the Pakistan flag on Independence day.

This, I know is not as treasonous as pointing it out by hate mongers like me.
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Aug 16, 2008 12:00 AM
229
Ganesan,

>> Islam is deeply wedded to politics right from the days of Prophet.

Always ready with your hostile barbs! Islam developed strategies for survival and for gathering strength in the midst of bitter enemies. But to call Isalm a political ideology is a vicious bodepudism.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Aug 16, 2008 12:00 AM
228
Additional details of what happened is Srinagar..

At 3.45pm, Lal Chowk wore a totally different look. Hundreds of slogan-shouting protesters swarmed the area and at 4pm and planted the flags of Jamaat-e-Islami (which looks like the Pakistani flag) and the terrorist outfit, Hizb-ul Mujahideen, on top of the same tower where the Indian flag had been hoisted.

If one were to go by the symbolism of the spectacle at Lal Chowk, the valley’s alienation from the Indian Union seemed complete. One of the slogans of the protesters drove the message home — Jiyo, jiyo Pakistan, hum hain Pakistani . Other slogans included Islam Zindabad , Lad ke lenge azadi and Allah-u-Akbar .

Around 1pm in the Safa Kadal area, loudspeakers blared out from mosques, humko chahiye azadi. A procession on Maulana Azad Road around 3.30pm had at least 5,000 people. Around 2.45pm, before the namaz at Jamia Masjid in old Srinagar town was over, a bunch of 15 women in burqas burned the Tricolour.


http://timesofindia.ind...articleshow/3369371.cms


As per the print edition of Times of India , people who burnt indian flags were shouting " bharat teri maut ayee, millat ayee, millat ayee "

And these are the peoople whi have ben certified "as indian as any one else " by the resident quack , who thinks he is numero uno psychologist of the ummah. Vetted by people like mullah kamath , who see nothing wrong in hoisting paki flags in India.

I will bet a ruepe against the quack , for coming out with a logical response to the subject, instead of attacking the posters.any takers?
lookout bug me not
mumbai, India
Aug 16, 2008 12:00 AM
227
faruki

shri ganesan is right and you are absolutely wrong.

iran, saudi arabia are governed under islamic laws. that makes islam a political idealogy.

by the way it was mohammet who started wars, by trying to force the jewish tribesmen to become muslims. if they attacked him it was self defence.

by the way some one had written a book -the jewel of medina-its about ayesha mohammets favourite wife. the publishers decided not to print it out of fear of rabid muslims. whats the
matter with you guys.

instead of buckling down usa, britain etc should deport about 50,000 muslim fanatics from their countries.
lalitmb
kalundborg, Denmark
Aug 16, 2008 12:00 AM
226
faruki

whatever your intentions there is at best a tense
peace between nonmuslims and muslim minorities.

islam is not a happy or laid back religion as commonly practiced. thats how nonmuslims see it.
any number of comments in the media confirm my
views.

frankly it may be an idea for the west to have a test amongst muslims, to determine their attitudes and compatibility with western lifestyle.

if this had been done earlier ,then hundreds of thousands of fanatical and dangerous muslims would not be in our midst. society would not be on edge all the time. we would be free of
demands about how muslim kids should be provided
special treatment, and no one would debate and discuss islam and muslims all the time.

we would not require so many secureity checks, and save a lot of money to support the many immigrants who are a permanent burden.

i wonder if mohammet would agree with my way of thinking, but i am sure that many danes would support my ideas, of cource with the exception
of the various human right organisations.

i am certain that muslim countries would not allow large contingents of ultra liberal westerners in their midst.i accept this, and will
stay away.thats a promise.
lalitmb
kalundborg, Denmark
Aug 15, 2008 12:00 AM
225
Pal/Bodepudi,

>> If Islam can not accept Hindus as neighbors in Kashmir, it then tantamounts to open war fare against Infidels.

All you need to do is spread hate and divisiveness. What else is a hate propagandist supposed to do?
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Aug 15, 2008 12:00 AM
224
Lalit,

>> you abuse and insult all who speak against islam and muslims.

How do you want me treat those who have made hatemongering their life's mission?
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Aug 15, 2008 12:00 AM
223
faruki

sooner or later you will have to face the truth
about islam and muslims.

lady macbeth could not wash the blood stains from her hands.

however for a change i would like read a bit about muslim society- the unseemly, the bizarre,
the exciteing, the creativeness, food, wines,the
haunting music and dance.

would any one oblige.
lalitmb
kalundborg, Denmark
Aug 15, 2008 12:00 AM
222
Ganesan,

>> WHy dont you provide us context.

Easily available on Google. I don't want to be a mullah in this forum. I say good things about Hinduism too, but I am not going to give explications from the Upanishads here.

Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Aug 15, 2008 12:00 AM
221
Ashok,

>> USA is unlike other 52 'free Islamic contries'.....

Would you want India to be free and secular like the USA, or backward like many of those 'Isalmic' countries? While 'Islamic' countries should move towards liberalization, sanghis like you are trying to islamicize Hinduism!
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Aug 15, 2008 12:00 AM
220
"If Islam can not accept Hindus as neighbors in Kashmir, it then tantamounts to open war fare against Infidels." Pal

"All you need to do is spread hate and divisiveness. What else is a hate propagandist supposed to do?" Anwar Patel/Ghulam I Faruki

If Kashmiri Hindu plight is propaganda for you, no wonder the narrative of crimes against humanity (serial Islamic genocides against Hindus-Buddhists) is an exaggeration for you. You can not fool Hindus with your "secular" facade any more.

Aren't Hindus made refugees in Kashmir?

How many thousands were killed?

Why?

Was it not the same styroy repeated ad infinitum snce the Sindh genocides in 712?

Pal
Hong Kong, United States
Aug 15, 2008 12:00 AM
219
faruki

your usual garbage.

the bjp and its supporters are liberals and democrats. the party members chose their leaders.

there is law and order in bjp states, and freedom of speech.

compare this with bengal, and how tasleema was chased out.

muslims will never liberalise. this would mean rejecting islam, sharia, the koran which is the
word of god.

we hindus have no such mad ideas. the secular,
democratic constitution has support of the bjp,
the people who have opposed it are muslims and the congress.
lalitmb
kalundborg, Denmark
Aug 15, 2008 12:00 AM
218
Ashok,

>> And that rightful person is the Pro-phut, one that requires that peace be heaped upon him all the time.

Slandering the religions of others has become permissible as a result of the poison that has been let loose in our country by the RSS/VHP parivar. It was not P.C. which prevented our forefathers from indulging in it. It was their common decency.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Aug 15, 2008 12:00 AM
217
faruki

some brave and savvy people hated and attacked nazism. about 20 years ago sakharov and solzenitsyn fought against communism. hate was
their companion in their battles.

liberals hate islam. i hate islam, and its right
and proper to do so.

just comment on issues. dont use this brainless and childish strategy of name calling.

we also see your hatred for our hindutwa idealogy. however your comments are not dismissed on that account.
lalitmb
kalundborg, Denmark
Aug 15, 2008 12:00 AM
216
Yakoob/Parbat/Ramdas/Abdullah/Thomas,

>> the doctrine of secularism became the doctrine of defending religious conservatism among Muslims and attacking it among Hindus.

The vicissitudes of secularism in India! Meghnad Desai's observation may be correct. But abandoning rather than improving upon our secularism can be the prescription of a hate-filled cynic like yourself.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Aug 15, 2008 12:00 AM
215
Pal/Bodepudi,

>> If Kashmiri Hindu plight is propaganda for you...

The plight of Kashmiri Hindus is not propaganda. But all your posts are hate propaganda. Your sole purpose for being in this forum is to spread hate and divisiveness.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Aug 15, 2008 12:00 AM
214
Lalit,

>> some brave and savvy people hated and attacked nazism. about 20 years ago sakharov and solzenitsyn fought against communism.

Equating nazism and Communism with a 1400 year old religion puts you in the same idiot bracket as Bodepudi!
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Aug 15, 2008 12:00 AM
213
faruki

islam is a foul and absurd religion.

it invites abuse, insults and mockery.only threats of violence stop it being mocked more
extensively.

i could laugh at mohammet flying to heaven on a winged horse, and a sign from allah every time he wanted to marry a 6 year old child or his daughterinlaw. faruki can you fall for this.

heaven help us.
lalitmb
kalundborg, Denmark
Aug 15, 2008 12:00 AM
212
Lalit,

>> islam is a foul and absurd religion.

Study your religion and your wife's religion. That might make you more tolerant and less stupid.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Aug 15, 2008 12:00 AM
211
faruki

both of us are agnostics.

most danes are.

however our grand kids believe in santa claus.
my soninlaw dresses up as one, and the children love it.,

but then the eldest is 6 years- and i think
he will soon get wise to it.

you never will.
lalitmb
kalundborg, Denmark
Aug 15, 2008 12:00 AM
210
Lalit,

>> both of us are agnostics.

That is okay. But do agnostics spread hate against the faith of others?
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Aug 15, 2008 12:00 AM
209
faruki

i note that you dont defend islam.

you say it is a 1400 hundred year old religion.
so what. and you guys have not changed either.
mad as coots.

at times you defend islam by claiming other religions are equally bad. thats no defence.
you really are a dunce. not your fault.
its the 1400 year old religion. try something
more modern and sensible.
lalitmb
kalundborg, Denmark
Aug 15, 2008 12:00 AM
208
Guys, I am a bit confused here.

Lalit >> both of us are agnostics.

Anwar >> That is okay. But do agnostics spread hate against the faith of others?

An agnostic is a a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and probably unknowable; broadly : one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god

If you are agnostics, how can you claim a faith or spread hatred against the faith of others (you will not have one).

Just a thought.
Prakash
San Francisco, United States
Aug 15, 2008 12:00 AM
207
faruki-prakash

i dont spread hate.

i just think that islam has a bad record of intolerance and violence, and the way islam is behaveing, its the most likely object of critique.one would be irrational and cowardly
to stand aside as some of the leftists are doing.

did you read johann hari,s article in todays -the independent- from london.

it justfies criticism of islam.

if christianity had not been criticised we would
perhaps still see witches being burnt on the stake.

unless islam is criticised, it will remain dogmatic, with all the laws of blasphemy, apostasy, stoneing of women, and calls for jehad. muslims hate criticism of their religion.
but its a free world. you guys can threaten people, burn flags and bomb embassies, scare of the pope, but it will not stop free speech.

fanatics hate free speech just as dracula hated the cross or garlic.

prakash, i dont know what you are saying. for or
against.
lalitmb
kalundborg, Denmark
Aug 15, 2008 12:00 AM
206
Lalit>>prakash, i dont know what you are saying. for or against.

I am saying that if you are an agnostic, you will criticize all religions. You do not seem to be doing so, only Islam. The issues that you notice with Islam do exist, but all religions have issues. Why don't you criticize the other religions too? Even now, Hinduism has a multitude of problems that refuses to go away. Surely, they deserve a fraction of your time of you are an agnostic. Same for Christianity.

I am not saying that you are spreading hate, that is Faruki.
Prakash
San Francisco, United States
Aug 15, 2008 12:00 AM
205
Lalit,

>> i dont spread hate.

For years now you have been insulting Islam and Muslims every chance you got, or even out of the blue. You are obsessed by Islam and Muslims. You have a sickness.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Aug 15, 2008 12:00 AM
204
faruki

yakoob is like many of us.

we have no trust in the muslim community.

Their attitude as always is- whats in it for us-
In Denmark they are quick to learn all the social laws, to get maximum benefits. They consider danish women to be sluts, and the men to be drunks.

Who has time or patience for such a community.

You guys should look at your own kind, before
blameing others. Muslims in Denmark are the immigrant community most under attack. Even
the socialists and social democrats have not a good word to say about them.

Your 1400 year old religious does not make you
good citizens anywhere.School kids in Denmark
have a better code of morals and good behaviour.
lalitmb
kalundborg, Denmark
Aug 15, 2008 12:00 AM
203
"Why don't you criticize the other religions too? Even now, Hinduism has a multitude of problems that refuses to go away." Prakash

You can not conflate an ideology with a religion. Hinduism is deeply flawed, no doubt, with its temple structures that needed reformation and renaissance Millennia ago. Any references to permanent social divisions, as mentioned in the Vedas, etc have no place in *India and must be flushed out. In truth, though, the caste structures are on their last legs and with rapid spread of skills and employment among women, this will soon be a forgettable nightmare of the past. Following the The Indian constitution, the quota=based legislation is the most radical affirmative program in the world, today.

Islam is an imperialist ideology that killed millions of Hindus-Buddhists (to wit, Kashmir) with its Intolerance and Hatred for Hindu Infidels. Wafa Sultan and Hirsi Ali, among others, have rightly concluded that Islam is an ideology, and an imperialist one at that.

Gandhi-Nehru, though were peerless in their courage and in their legendary struggles against the British, were clueless and perhaps cowardly in confronting the imperialist Islam
Pal
Hong Kong, United States
Aug 15, 2008 12:00 AM
202
faruki

all criticise your hypocracy, lies, insults and
your defence of islam- without a good word being written in defence.

if a commie was in this forum, and expressed your
kinda views he would be roundly abused.

i take a dig at the bongos as well.

but i am afraid islam is the religion which is
the favourite targets of liberals, and agnostics.

you are too dense to see the fallacies, absurdities of your religion.however let me say one thing. a man of your kind would espouse any
religion or idealogy he inherited.from being
a christian evangelist, a militant sikh, or a
member of the red gaurd. a lack of the ability
to think, to appreciate humour are your strong points. i wont go into your weak points.

the kashmiri muslims have also soured the climate. scoundrels - should be kicked all the way to waziristan.
lalitmb
kalundborg, Denmark
Aug 15, 2008 12:00 AM
201
Mrs Jafry of Bangla Desh

Hindu//'Secession scars'

"I spent three years at the parliament trying to tell the rulers they should not spend all the East Pakistani money for development in West Pakistan. I tried to warn them that there was already smoke in East Pakistan, and there would soon be fire."

But in the West Pakistan of the 1960s, no one seemed to be in the mood to heed such advice.

When Bangladesh seceded, she suffered a nervous breakdown and was in hospital for several weeks.
Mrs Jafry was a member of Pakistan's national parliament

As a member of parliament, Mrs Jafry had her first chance to visit West Pakistan, where all the infrastructure of state she had fought for was located. The parliament then used to meet in the city of Rawalpindi.

She didn't like the place much.

"The first thing I noticed here was that men looked at women with lust, something I had never experienced in Bengal. And then there was bonded labour due to the domination of feudal lords."

Pal
Hong Kong, United States
Aug 15, 2008 12:00 AM
200
prakash

i dont treat hindism or christianity seriously.

danes do not take christianity seriously either.
i like going to church for ceremonies- not
when some one close has died. but its just theatre for me,

same again in hinduism. when i do go to a temple,
i fold my hands, get blessed- has never done me any good- get the prasad, and of i go,

if muslims had the same attitude, the world would
be a better place.

look at faruki- he is a grown up man, and is absolutelu blotto about his religion. nutts,

he would be a better chap if he read p.g.woodhouse instead of the holy book.
better still if he could join in for a round
of beer and a bawdy song.

have you heard "seven drunken nights" by the dubliners.
lalitmb
kalundborg, Denmark
Aug 15, 2008 12:00 AM
199
Pal >> Following the The Indian constitution, the quota=based legislation is the most radical affirmative program in the world, today.

Are you serious? It is the stupidest possible affirmative action program. It takes no account of the individual's capability and economic condition. Why not give the whole set of seats based on caste and be done with it? This is a way to win votes, that is all. Instead of trying to improve the quality of the school system (this would require them to use brains), they did this. Interestingly, not a single major party opposed it. The parties tried to extend it to private employment too, the companies did not agree and they did not have enough votes to get it through.
Prakash
San Francisco, United States
Aug 15, 2008 12:00 AM
198
Pal/Bodepudi,

>> You can not conflate an ideology with a religion.

The snake never misses a chance to spout his venom.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Aug 15, 2008 12:00 AM
197
Lalit,

>> yakoob is like many of us. we have no trust in the muslim community.

I know that there is not much of a difference in the merchants of hate in this forum. Now give your sick mind a rest.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Aug 15, 2008 12:00 AM
196
"You can not conflate an ideology with a religion." Pal, pointing out the errors in judgement of Gandhi-Nehru-Congress, completely validated by both the "holy" Koranic texts (that MANDATED unending war against Unbelievers-Infidels) and the Islamic practices closely resembling those texts and tenets

"The snake never misses a chance to spout his venom." Ghulam I Faruki/Anwar Patel speaking the language of Islam, full of hatred and venom for the Infidels

Faruki:

This forum is meant for arguments-not for spreading venom and hatred against Infidels. Your language is a confirmation that you are caught red-handed!



Pal
Hong Kong, United States
Aug 15, 2008 12:00 AM
195
"Are you serious? It is the stupidest possible affirmative action program." Prakash, commenting on the Indian caste-based quota system

When the Constitution was being drafted, none could imagine that Congress and Corruption would soon be synonymous. And, perhaps, there were few alternatives:

1 Hinduism had failed in reforming itself. There is deep and wide-spread spiritual stagnation, especially since the decline of Buddhism, in India. There has never been the long sought after catharsis-much needed and seemingly delayed for ever. The political/educational/cultural system is effete & needs a REVOLUTION in culture

2 Islam offers a wonderful opporunity for Hindus to do simultaneously what its reformers had failed in doing: Unity against a much greater threat-threat for their very survival. The alternative social system that Islam offers is so profoundly inhumane that even an unreformed Hinduism looks infinitely better

Keeping the above in mind while charting the road map for a future:

a Survival against Islam and b reinventing/reengineering the nearly broken cultural/ethical social structures-for survival and then for final liberation for ALL. Without the later-the PATH and the VISION, the survival theme has no meaning

Pal
Hong Kong, United States
Aug 15, 2008 12:00 AM
194
Pal/Bodepudi,

>> This forum is meant for arguments.

Yes! Not for hate propaganda, so buzz off!
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Aug 15, 2008 12:00 AM
193
"Yes! Not for hate propaganda" Anwar Patel/Ghulam I Faruki

Genocide of Hindus in Kashmir is not a propaganda-just talk to Pundits if you can still find them

Islamic genocides of Hindus-Buddhists since 712 is based on facts. There is cover up here both by the jihadis and the "seculars"-including the British

That Islamic texts and Tenets preach Hatred and Violence against infidels can be verified by reading the Suras-

Terror bombings all over India is not propaganda

London, Madrid and the 9/11 terror attacks are not propaganda

Only paid Al Queda agents call Islam a "religion(!)" of "Peace"!
Pal
Hong Kong, United States
Aug 15, 2008 12:00 AM
192
anwar

are you merchant of love in this forum??????????
saraswati
jammu, India
Aug 15, 2008 12:00 AM
191
Pal/Bodepudi,

>> Islamic genocides of Hindus-Buddhists since 712 is based on facts.

It is the kind of unashamed lie that malicious hate propagandists like you need to perpetuate your vicious agenda.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Aug 15, 2008 12:00 AM
190
Saraswati,

>> are you merchant of love in this forum?

We may see some things differently, but that should not be a reason for us to be rude to each other.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Aug 15, 2008 12:00 AM
189
faruki

more then anything else ,you are a fool.

not trusting an adversery or an enemy makes sense.it would be stupid to trust them after decades of treachery.

look at pakistani,s. they are your fellow muslims. and on the other side we have bangladeshis.

bigger sons of bitches are hard to find.and this is based on their record all over the world.

from a factual point of view, what is the difference between muslims in india and those in pakistan. brain washed in islam, obsessed by hate for nonmuslims-

the bias against muslims in scandinavian countries is sky high.there is every reason to distrust them. one would be a fool if one did.

my families experience with muslims says it all.
should we thank former neighbours,employess for
killing members of the family, driveing us out from our homes.

how respected are muslims in usa. i understand none of the presidential candidates would meet
with you people. thats a message you need to heed.

how about sending a letter of complaint to the milli gazette. perhaps also the hindu, hindusthan times, both spokesmen for murder inc.
lalitmb
kalundborg, Denmark
Aug 15, 2008 12:00 AM
188
"It is the kind of unashamed lie that malicious hate propagandists like you need to perpetuate your vicious agenda." Anwar Patel, speaking of of self

Pal
Hong Kong, United States
Aug 15, 2008 12:00 AM
187
Dheeraj:>>"any ideology in the world needs a counter to survive . It's a symbiotic relationship"

You have a very valid philosophical point. Ideologies go from thesis to anti-thesis to synthesis, and so, further on. The universe itself is a second-order system. Even in mechanics, there is an equal and opposite reaction, for every action. Even a stable walk requires ground resistance on feet! Mechanisms move against inertia, fricion and elastance; currents against inductance, resistance and capacitance parameters; leading to oscillations of large or small periods, expanding and decaying. Same with ideologies and civilizns, cultures and religions.

One reason why hindu relig/civilizn has survived over millennnia is that divisions and debates have always been part of its religious philosophy itself. The word 'upanishad' itself means: "sitting together for a debate on spiritual truths", yaagjnavalkya-upanishad being aclassical example. Sankara had to win over many others in debate before his 'monism' was accepted as valid.

Hopefully the controversies among the world's religions today will lead to a clearer understanding of the basic spiritual truths behind all of them, by all humanity, so that the world can concentrate on overall growth with justice.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Aug 15, 2008 12:00 AM
186
Stifling the Debate

Johann Hari: "There is now a pincer movement trying to silence critical discussion of Islam"
I have long maintained that the defense of the West against the global jihad is not a Left/Right issue -- but most of the Left has made common cause with the jihadists. "We need to stop being such cowards about Islam," by Johann Hari for The Independent, August 14

{...] Muslims are secure enough to deal with some tough questions. It is condescending to treat Muslims like excitable children who cannot cope with the probing, mocking treatment we hand out to Christianity, Judaism and Buddhism. It is perfectly consistent to protect Muslims from bigotry while challenging the bigotries and absurdities within their holy texts.
There is now a pincer movement trying to silence critical discussion of Islam. To one side, fanatics threaten to kill you; to the other, critics call you "Islamophobic"-On the contrary: it treats all people as mature adults who can cope with rational questions. When we pulp books out of fear of fundamentalism, we are decapitating the most precious freedom we have.





Pal
Hong Kong, United States
Aug 15, 2008 12:00 AM
185
FARUKI PATEL:

//You are a venemous hate-monger speaking from the gutter. A sicko.

You think that Hindus defending themselves are like Islamist terrorists. Actually it is like CAIR, except that Hindu activists are not regularly jailed n the US for international terrorist connections like your CAIR activists.

Now just stp drinking and go to bed.//


Outlook:

Please restrain Anwar Patel/Ghulam Faruki from verbally terrorizing Hindus in this forum-in addition to supporting, directly or indirectly, the jihadi terror directed against Hindus, since 712-especially in Kashmir, today.

Either Anwar Bhai is completely unbalanced or is in the pay roll of CAIR/jihadi terror supporters. Either way, he is doing great disservice to the cause of social harmony, in India
Pal
Hong Kong, United States
Aug 15, 2008 12:00 AM
184
Prakash wrote
>>I am saying that if you are an agnostic, you will criticize all religions. You do not seem to be doing so, only Islam. The issues that you notice with Islam do exist, but all religions have issues. Why don't you criticize the other religions too? Even now, Hinduism has a multitude of problems that refuses to go away. Surely, they deserve a fraction of your time of you are an agnostic. Same for Christianity.>>

Just because you are agnostic doesn't mean you need to criticize religion. And just because you chose to criticize one religion doesn't mean you need to criticize every other religion to project urself as unbiased.

All religions may have evils but the evils of one particular religion is threatening to blow up this whole world. You can either accept this fact or live in denial for eternity. And that religion is the called the "religion of peace" but is anything but peace. And last but not least the way reforms have taken place in Christianity and Hinduism should tell you something that is lacking from the stone age culture that emanated from the sands of arabia.
ashok krihnamoorthy
columbia, United States
Aug 15, 2008 12:00 AM
183
Ashok Krinamoorthy >> Just because you are agnostic doesn't mean you need to criticize religion. And just because you chose to criticize one religion doesn't mean you need to criticize every other religion to project urself as unbiased.

If you criticize one religion and claim to be an agnostic, then sorry, you are not unbiased. People think that Hinduism is reformed by seeing the cities and most people here are from the cities, I would recommend them to go to the rural places in Bihar and see for themselves how things are. It has a long way to go. There is nothing wrong in criticizing a religion for its mistakes. Rajaram Mohan Roy did that and did his best to remove the Sati system.

>>And last but not least the way reforms have taken place in Christianity and Hinduism should tell you something that is lacking from the stone age culture that emanated from the sands of arabia.

Tell me the reforms that have happened in Hinduism. I would like to know what you feel are the main reforms in Hinduism in the last 50 years and who is responsible for them. What is the impact of these reforms? While Hindus may not blow up buildings, they have private armies in different states to make sure that their power is not removed.
Prakash
San Francisco, United States
Aug 15, 2008 12:00 AM
182
"If you criticize one religion and claim to be an agnostic, then sorry, you are not unbiased"

Why should one be unbiased?
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Aug 15, 2008 12:00 AM
181
Witness//

My view of islam is that it is not so much a "religion" as it is an ideology. Christianity and Judaism are also ideologies in my view as well as religions but they are of a similar cloth to one another and are non-threatening in that an individual has an “opt out” option.

As ideologies go, islam is particularly pernicious in what it advocates specifically beheadings, poll taxes, wife beatings, and destruction of anyone who does not agree with these practices; and “opting out” of this ideology is not an option.

Moreover, this ideology called islam like nazi-ism or communism, advocates that it is superior and must be forced upon the world as the prevailing and all embracing ideology. It is also an entire legal and governmental system which I find not merely distasteful – but dangerous to every ideal that I hold dear such as liberty, democracy within a republic, and freedom of expression to name a few.

CAIR must not be allowed to threaten or intimidate those who "criticize islam” in their view, even if they have the funds to prostitute our legislative system against us.

Will CAIR be allowed to effectively censor thoughts and speech with which it disagrees from sites such as this one all in the name of “fairness?”

Would the Muslim countries ever allow CAIR-type organizations? Why not? Isn't CAIR expected to fight for civil liberties in Muslim countries? Against the barbaric sharia laws? How about spending a few Billion dollars on controlling the family-size among Muslims instead of subsidizing larger families?//


Let's discuss and debate, one by one

Pal
Hong Kong, United States
Aug 14, 2008 12:00 AM
180
Migrating to an alien land and adapitng to a foreign culture for better living standards is both comforting and intimidating. You feel joyous of your material prosperity with occasional sadness for leaving behind things that you cared a lot. Even after assimilating a foreign culture at times there may be feelings of alienation and fear that in a foreign land there is an onslaught on your cultural identity. That is why immigrants constantly search for their roots and identities, expose their children to the culture of their homeland, take active interests in things happening in their motherland and clutch at their culture and tradition more closely than those living in their motherland. NRIs this way are no different from any immigrant living in a foreign country. NRIs feel secured being in close touch with their Indian values and culture, yet any obsession with cultural identity can lead to fundamentalist thinking or fanaticism. Since our cultural identities are closely related to religious identities as well, many NRIs take more active interests in their religious identities and have strong religious views. While the NRIs in their minds live in an imaginary homeland they claim to be India - Ram Rajya, the leftist intellectuals also live in their utopian India - a pluralist, secular - all milk and honey society as if there are no religious or ethnic conflicts. BJP's brand of religious nationalism have more appeal overseas than Congress brand of liberal secularism that deemphasizes cultural fundamentalism.
DC
NEW YORK, United States
Aug 14, 2008 12:00 AM
179
Lalit,

>> if you live in a plural civilised society like
in the usa, you are expected to live by their
values ie dress in a modern western style, and same for the ladies.

You may, or you may not. It is a free country.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Aug 14, 2008 12:00 AM
178
Mr Prakash

A country is not just a political entity. At a deeper level, it is much more a cultural concept and in that sense, Bharat (not India) has existed as ONE nation from time immemorial. The claim by some, brainwashed by two hundred years of colonial education, that India was not one country until the British 'united' the kingdoms, is based on ignorance of what a 'country' means, particularly in the context of our cultural traditions.

A country is not just determined by who the ruler is and where the boundaries are at any given time. It draws its existence from its collective memory as a people and that is where Ram, Krishna, Buddha, Mahavira, Chandragupta, Ashok, Valmiki, Adishankar, Kalidas, Tulsi, Meera, Kabir, Ghalib and Ramkrishna come in.

Vishnu Puran says:

"Dakhshinam yat samudrasya himadrischaiv uttaram. Varsham tad Bharatam nam Bharati yatra santati"

Translated into English it means:

“The land that has the ocean to its south and the Himalaya to its north is Bharat and its children the Bharatiya".
Pradip Singh
stafford, uk
Aug 14, 2008 12:00 AM
177
Mr Pradip Singh

I understand your point. A country can be a deep thing based on language, culture, time, religion etc. It has inspired poets, leaders, philosophers to do great things. It draws from collective memory and can be more than one person. However, people have manipulated this to do ugly things too. So, it is a fine line and it is upto mature people to decide where to draw it. For instance, Hitler was born in Braunau Ann Inn, which is in the border between Germany and Austria. This is significant as he felt that two German speaking nations should not have a boundary and said that he intended to remove it. People did not believe him and he made them regret it, this was the cause for the Anschluss. So, you have a lot of madmen too.

I am not speaking blindly based on some colonial education but based on a lot of thinking on this topic. The world as we know is changing. I know that a lot of Indians and Hindus are intent on India based on a historic concept and I accept that. However, the most important thing for human beings is to accept reasonable change, otherwise they will become extinct in a changing world. Please note that I mention the word "reasonable", it is upto each person to decide what that is. Countries are born based on many reasons, I do not wish to repeat myself, you decide what appeals to you.
Prakash
San Francisco, United States
Aug 14, 2008 12:00 AM
176
>> Going back in the recent past, it has resorted to similar tricks .On Feb 25,2002, when it lost the UP election, the next day the Sabarmati train catches fire

Looking at all facts, it makes sense. Godhra train fire is still a mystery. Even highly prejudiced Gujarat police failed to find culprit.
Regarding recent blasts in Gujarat, Modi government still doesn't a clue who is behind. But they found several unexploded bombs in no time. This spike in efficiency does raise question. It is very likely that it was stage managed.
Rajesh
Phoenix, United States
Aug 14, 2008 12:00 AM
175
14/08/08

Anwar says:
"I do not know whether to call you a liar or an idiot, but you certainly are an ignoramus!"

Regarding the Koraanic verses, please read for yourself.

"8:12, I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them
8:15-16, O ye who believe! when ye meet the Unbelievers in hostile array, never turn your backs to them. If any do turn his back to them on such a day - unless it be in a stratagem of war, or to retreat to a troop (of his own)- he draws on himself the wrath of Allah, and his abode is Hell,- an evil refuge (indeed)!
8:17, It is not ye who slew them; it was Allah: when thou threwest (a handful of dust), it was not thy act, but Allah's: in order that He might test the Believers by a gracious trial from Himself
8:60, Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies, of Allah and your enemies, and others besides, whom ye may not know, but whom Allah doth know. Whatever ye shall spend in the cause of Allah, shall be repaid unto you, and ye shall not be treated unjustly.
8:65, O Prophet! rouse the Believers to the fight. If there are twenty amongst you, patient and persevering, they will vanquish two hundred: if a hundred, they will vanquish a thousand of the Unbelievers"

It proves that Anwar is a congenital liar.
Ravi
Los Angeles, United States
Aug 14, 2008 12:00 AM
174
Ravi/Thiagan,

I do not know whether to call you a liar or an idiot, but you certainly are an ignoramus! In addition to being a despicable bigot.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Aug 14, 2008 12:00 AM
173
14/08/08

"you are rewriting history again, the south india was never part of the Maurya empire. The deep south was missed out. You can take a look at it. So, Kerala, Karnataka, Tamil Nadu were left out. Take a look." Prakash"

It is true that political India came into being with the advent of the British. But civilisational and cultural India has been in existence from time immemorial. Please read:

"India is a single geographical unit. Her unity is as ancient as nature. Within this geographic unity and covering the whole of it, there has been a cultural unity from time immemorial. This cultural unity has defied political and racial divisions. In any discussion on Pakistan, the fact can not be lost sight of, that the starting point, if not the governing factor, is the fundamental unity of India" The author is Dr.B.R.Ambedkhar.

Pakistan erased the above civilisational aspects of the Indian culture and imposed the Wahaabi influence and the result is the political, economical and cultural mess. They are also imposing the Wahaabi influence in Bangladesh and it is also sliding into anarchy.

Ravi
Los Angeles, United States
Aug 14, 2008 12:00 AM
172
14/08/08
Anwar says:
"I do not know whether to call you a liar or an idiot, but you certainly are an ignoramus! In addition to being a despicable bigot."

You are abusing me as if I am the author; please take note that the author is some one else. I am transferring the abuse to the rightful place/ person.
Ravi
Los Angeles, United States
Aug 14, 2008 12:00 AM
171
Ravi/Thiagan,

>> You are abusing me as if I am the author.

Your purpose in posting select passages without context is nothing but evil. Your agenda is to spread hate. You are a despicable piece of s..t!
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Aug 14, 2008 12:00 AM
170
14/08/08

"Christianity offers good education and Islam offers immediate social assimilation."

Yes indeed. Social assimilation into the Islamic hell hole.
Ravi
Los Angeles, United States
Aug 14, 2008 12:00 AM
169
14/08/08

"select passages" _ "without context"

There are no verses in the Book that affirm the violent verses are event/time related; in fact it is repeatedly stressed that they are eternal and have universal application. In sequence, the violent verses come later and replace the peaceful verses. Your statement is a lie.
Ravi
Los Angeles, United States
Aug 14, 2008 12:00 AM
168
14/08/08

The situation is fascists in Islam have been joined by left lunatics, socialist scoundrals and secular fanatics. It is a dangerous mix; they have already destroyed the Judeo Christian civilisation in Europe. It is now debated whether Eurabia and Londonistan will come into being in 2020 or 2050. They have attempted to do the same in India but the Hindus have resisted; hence all this campaign of calumny. The Hindu minority in USA is the richest and the most highly educated group. Communism and socialism have failed and they together with muslims are trying to destroy those who have succeeded.
Ravi
Los Angeles, United States
Aug 14, 2008 12:00 AM
167
NRIs love for India is not a problem. Like many "liberals" they don't deride Hindu and Hinduism at every chance. What is wrong about that.

But this is not a problem. The article will only serve as an instrument to make us forget the real problems. There are 2 crores bearded Bangladeshis in India and many of them are planning more and more bomb attacks across India. SIMI and SIMI like organizations are virus worst than AIDS creating havocs in India. The bearded dogs or Mullahs will kill more and more innocent Indians and they won't be punished because of vote bank Arithmetic. Ayodhya, Bombay, Hyderabad, Ahemedabad, Jaipur , there are so many bomb attacks by the satans. They have given a free hand to cause more slaughter of India. THIS IS THE REAL PROBLEM. LET US NOT IGNORE THE REAL DANGER AND NOT WASTE TIME ON PETTY STUFFS.

KASHMIR IS A MUCH MUCH BIGGER TRAGEDY THAN GUJARAT. REAL SUFFERERS ARE KASHMIRI HINDU PANDITS. 4 LAKHS OF THEM ARE DRIVEN OUT BY THE BEARDED SATANS. COUNTLESS KASHMIRI HINDU WOMEN WERE RAPED AND MOLESTED BY THESE SLAVES OF ARAB PIGS. AND WHAT SOME BASTARDS OF INTELLECTUALS ARE TRYING TO DO...THEY TRY TO PICTURE THE WHOLE TRAGEDY AS A COMEDY TO LAUGH AT, THEY PAINT THE BEARDED CULPRITS AND DOGS INSPIRED BY THE DIRTIEST PIG OSAMA BIN LADEN AS THE VICTIMS ..... THIS IS THE REAL PROBLEM. AND LET US NOT FORGET THAT. LET THE BASTARDS OF INTELLECTUALS BARK FOR A MILLION YEARS.
jaleel
luknow, India
Aug 14, 2008 12:00 AM
166
>>>"Christianity offers good education and Islam offers immediate social assimilation."
"Yes indeed. Social assimilation into the Islamic hell hole." RAVI

And, you might have added: chr no longer offers 'good education', only churchian indoctrination and harrassment of women in convents and children in orphanges.
See the keralite nun committing suicide.

It is high time catholics allow both men and women to function equally as priests [without being conversionist preachers], without the need for them to be bachelors or spinsters. Forcing women in chr families to join convents as nuns, to avoid property share to dtrs, giving the property to church instead, etc. are social evils, likely to provoke divine wrath and destruction of the church. Same with the mullahs of islam molesting women 'married to the quran', or hindu self-styled god-men misbehaving with women devotees, etc. The twenty-first century world has no need for god-men of any kind, only for all mankind to see theselves as the images of God.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Aug 14, 2008 12:00 AM
165
As I can read that this whole article is focused on hate campaign of so-called Hindu groups. Maybe I missed, but I did not see any new facts or anything new in it. Rather an old wine in new bottle.
I am not sure how hatefull the hate-groups are, but I can see, the auther is full of it. Seems like each word is soaked in it. I can, kind of, see her eyes while writing it. :)
Interesting!
Bunty
Hsinchu, Taiwan
Aug 14, 2008 12:00 AM
164
NRI's look at India and see what is hapepening vis a vis the other parts of the world. People in general cherish their heritage a lot. Unfortunately we Indians are definitely more involved in our day to day issues and the heritage seems to be a distant past. Accordingly NRI's feel this is neglected and take it up. Further in the name of secularism and tolerance anything goes in India. This is not done in other parts of the world and hence you find lot of NRI's as natural supportors of RSS or BJP. Because they find them nationalistic while others are more focussed on immediate gains by pleasing this or that community.

A few other things which appear quite galling to a NRI is that we Indians are generally focussed more on us and our family. We rarely get concerned about the Country as a large. Anybody thinking on those lines is in fact admonished as being an emotional fool. However, nationalistic fervour abounds in other parts and NRI's definitely try to rake it.

Another thing which strikes an NRI is general way of softness in our thought process. We pardon or give way too easily. Otherwise no other major country would have ever forgiven anybody who has carried out a series of bomb attacks on the country
vibhaas
Doha, qatar
Aug 14, 2008 12:00 AM
163
The first part of this article is exactly the same jargon and contempt for those who want see the truth.
What Pakistan has been doing and is doing is known to the whole world,so why should its mention be contemptible?Same goes for Bangladeshi infiltration.The demographic change in Tripura and other areas neighbouring Bangladesh also is a fact admitted even by courts.So Seema cannot now deny it although earlier she would have done so.Truth will surely be out one day but what purpose does it serve to avoid seeing it?
K.C.Sharma
Delhi, India
Aug 14, 2008 12:00 AM
162
Hum bolega to bologe ki bolta hain!! This is what happens when Hindus speak out. Hindus have kept quiet for far too long and now people do not expect them to open their mouths. Hain na? And what was India Incredible ad doing there in the artcile? That was not run by NRIs... it was Indian Govt who ran it. Oh... you did not want to see Hindu images in the ad. Right? Unfortunately... for you... the revolution has begun. It won't stop... like it or not.
Niraj
Dubai, United Arab Emirates
Aug 14, 2008 12:00 AM
161
namo2

just look at the brightest in india-

are they christians, or muslims.

the only christians that i know in delhi are former drivers who worked for us, or the nurses
in max clinic, close to our house.

yes the muslims are close to each other, but are
on the fringe of indian society. the same is the case of muslims in western countries.

christians and muslims have been indoctrinated to dislike the idol worshipping hindus- a silly
caricature of us, which i fail to recoganise.

many in my family are married to europeans, americans and they have been easily accepted by all.i have had foreign guests in delhi, and they
have been greatly impressed by my families friendliness and hospitality.And vice versa.

I have befriended a few Christians and Muslims
and they themselves are uncomfortable with their
own communities naive and awkward behaviour.
lalitmb
kalundborg, Denmark
Aug 14, 2008 12:00 AM
160
HF:>>"The political humilitation suffered by the fascist party on July 22,2008 makes these blasts the work of BJP."

The political humiliation of 22-7-2k8 was not so much that of the BJP [they were only saying they will renegotiate the deal later], but much more only for the leftists and the moslems in the country, who wanted india tied only to iranian gas-line. Salim of CPI[M] was the most aggressive in parliament. Siddiqui of UP even changed over from SP to BSP, when SP decided to support MMS on the deal.

Hence, I think the Ahmedabad blasts were only by moslem groups like SIMI. But, perhaps, the non-blast bombs set up in Surat could be by Modi's bjp, to make the moslem traders and workers of gujarat in the diamond industry to introspect on what damages could have occurred if they had really blasted.

Your connection of UP election defeat of BJP to sabarmati exp fire appears farfetched.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Aug 14, 2008 12:00 AM
159
Ganpat urf Lalit Bagai

Your comments against Christians are not only biased but also mean .Tell me in which way Indian Christians are less than Hindus ? You studied in Missionary Schools and you speak like a Bajrangi.Mothe rof your childern is a Christian she too is a slu-- ?

Whatway you are better than Farooqi ?
Khushi Ram
ambala cantt, India
Aug 14, 2008 12:00 AM
158
Vibhaas:>>"A few other things which appear quite galling to a NRI is that we Indians are generally focussed more on us and our family. We rarely get concerned about the Country as a large."

You have a real point. Indians are family-centred, at best caste/community centred, so long as they arre in india. Only when they go outside the country as NRIs, they start thinking of India as a total country, its past, present and future. Even in Gandhi, Nehru, Subhash, Jay-prakash, the amplification of their patriotism and commitment to nationalism was brought about, mainly bec of their stay abroad focussing their minds on india as a whole and its performance compared to other countries.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Aug 14, 2008 12:00 AM
157
I have visited many of the chat rooms . They are filled with BJP supporters in the ratio of 9:1 . But what everyone forgets that any ideology in the world needs a counter to survive . It's a symbiotic relationship .
For example in a chat room if there is no Hindu Bashers , The hindu right do not have the oppurtunity to defend their religion and so on .
RSS was born was as a result of Muslim parties . BJP born out of minority appeasment .
If there were no leftisis there would be no rightists .
dheeraj
trivandrum, India
Aug 14, 2008 12:00 AM
156
I appologise Lalit I lost my head being a Christian . Very Sorry. Christians are the most loyal Indians. Naga problem was caused by the Britishers who misguided the Christian Nagas .Nehru was too naive to see through the game.

Anyway sorry again for personal comments. Even for Gulam Mian I have no personal anger .Unfortunately he can't see beyond Modi.
Khushi Ram
ambala cantt, India
Aug 14, 2008 12:00 AM
155
Here the issue is Islamic ideology and its global drive for supremacy. If Islam can not accept Hindus as neighbors in Kashmir, it then tantamounts to open war fare against Infidels.

Christianity is more mature and subtle. Hindus can and must learn to peacefully coexist with Christians but the missionaries should not be allowed to convert people with bribes and propaganda
Pal
Hong Kong, United States
Aug 14, 2008 12:00 AM
154
Islamic ideology is the Issue number One

//Saudi man cuts daughter's tongue, burns her to death
Her crime? Converting to Christianity. "Saudi man kills daughter for converting to Christianity," by Mariam Al Hakeem for Zawya, August 13:

Riyadh: A Saudi man working with the Commission for Promotion of Virtue and Prevention of Vice recently killed his daughter for converting to Christianity.

According to sources close to the victim, the religious police member had cut the tongue of the girl and burned her to death following a heated debate on religion.

The death of the girl sent shockwaves and websites where the victim used to write with various nick names have allocated special space to mourn her, while some others closed temporarily in protest.

According to the Saudi Al Ukhdoud news website, the victim wrote an article on the blog of which she was a member under the nickname "Rania" a few days before her murder.

Pal
Hong Kong, United States
Aug 14, 2008 12:00 AM
153
faruki

you abuse and insult all who speak against islam and muslims. that is how you judge people. in
your book people must like, respect muslims even if they have an opposite view.

you would be better off trying to find the weak spots of your religion and community. it would keep you busy 24 hours of the day.

its still time to choose, between the values you support and the values you oppose.

many people like me find islam to be a completely
irrational, and antihuman,antiwoman religion.

the fact that you stand in opposition to most members of the liberal society in usa and europe should make you rethink your positions.

after all you do prefer most things in the usa
then you do in muslim societies. so why are so blindly supportive of your religion and muslim
society.

scared to change familiar attitudes. eh faruki.

its time to change and take up the challenge of inventing the islamic can opener.1.3 billion
muslims and the 5 billion others will cheer you.
lalitmb
kalundborg, Denmark
Aug 14, 2008 12:00 AM
152
ravi

the blame for the hate verses must be placed on the author.

mr mohhamett-the messenger of god.

eh faruki. why cant you give credit when credit is due.
lalitmb
kalundborg, Denmark
Aug 14, 2008 12:00 AM
151
hard fact

the hard facts are that muslims and hindus are
natural adverseries. we dislike and even hate each other.this will carry on.

blameing the bjp, the americans,jews or others
is the futile efforts of losers who can not live
peacefully or win acceptance in plural societies.

the worst has still to come for muslims and islams. not at the hands of hindus-we are a confused lot- but at the hands of americans,
russians and chinese.

but let me repeat myself. hindus within and without the bjp dislike muslims, and we dont give a damn what you think of us.

you are the people largely ignorant, irrational
and fighting with the rest of humanity.

pakistan and bangladesh shows the nature of muslims, unable to live in peace even amongst themselves.dont try to be a smart ass.

kashmiri muslims have exposed what muslims are
all about. i dont blame them for being fanatics or bigots. but it does give hindus a right and obligation to rethink their attitudes to muslims.
lalitmb
kalundborg, Denmark
Aug 14, 2008 12:00 AM
150
Are these psec jounralists peeved that their lie-leddplking is being challanaged.. What else could justify these rabid NRi hatred filled article bordering oN lies and BS mostly..
Rahul
Delhi, India
Aug 14, 2008 12:00 AM
149
I would like to see an article on police vanadalism of FACT sposoored historical depiction fo Auragnjbe in chennai..

That news never saw the frontpage.. I am sure these secularist chuckle on the fate of poor Francois Giite's FACT..
Rahul
Delhi, India
Aug 14, 2008 12:00 AM
148
khshi ram

culturally i am a christian. i find the verses
in the bible to be truly beautiful. and i am still loyal to my old school st columbas,s

however i am really angry with the st stephens
controversey. people should not discriminate, and the christians responsible for the college are doing so openly. the bastards will ruin the college. after all with a faculty of mediocre
teachers, whose main competence is being christians is not anything great.

however i stand by my criticism of the poor not
so smart christians-

however thats because i oppose stupidity, prejudice in any one.of what ever religions-

thats why i am an agnostic.

your apology accepted.
lalitmb
kalundborg, Denmark
Aug 14, 2008 12:00 AM
147
"Your purpose in posting select passages without context is nothing but evil."

WHy dont you provide us context-atleast in one instance? Why are you so lazy to provide the actual context?
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Aug 14, 2008 12:00 AM
146
Ms.Sirohi,
Journos, please step back and remove the yellow tinted glasses from your eyes before maligning the NRIs again!
Again, another "holier than thou" journalist has put together a long article without much of an insight into the NRI scene. Most of the NRIs in Canada and the U.S (I know this scene very well and not other countries) truly practice "to each his own". The Hindutva faction is a small percentage of the entire NRI Hindu populace in the Americas.
The group that you are portraying (your one friend does not represent the entire NRI bunch), is MAINLY made up of the younger NRIs who started migrating to the Americas at the beginning of the software bubble in the 90's and many of them tend to relocate to India. As for the "hate" that you see on the net, much of it comes from India.
However, this much is true. I used to be a true moderate, a Gandhian. Even now, I do not want to be part of the Hindutva group. However, the hate that is spewed by the Indian media against the Hindus makes me understand what Hindus in India are up against. I am not a religious person, but I think that the U.S as a nation, accords more respect to my religion and my culture than the Indian media. I am not put on the defensive in this country. I am proud to be a Hindu and an Indian. Maybe this country teaches us to take a hard look at ourselves and own up to the negative AND the positive within us.
THE FOLLOWING IS A REAL TESTIMONY TO THE DIFFERENCE IN THE LEVEL OF RESPECT ACCORDED TO INDIA BY THE INDIAN MEDIA AND THE NRI. I WENT THROUGH THE ARTICLES WRITTEN ON THE EVE OF INDEPENDENCE DAY ON OUTLOOK ONLINE AND A FEW OTHER INDIAN NEWS SITES YESTERDAY. THE IMPRESSION THEY GIVE IS THAT INDIA NEEDS TO HANG ITS HEAD IN SHAME ON THE EVE OF INDEPENDENCE DAY. THERE IS NO SENSE OF PRIDE IN THE INDIAN MEDIA ABOUT THEIR OWN COUNTRY ! THERE IS HARDLY ANYTHING POSITIVE AT THESE SITES ABOUT INDIA, ON THE EVE OF INDEPENDENCE! AND THE INDIAN MEDIA IS ALWAYS COMPARING INDIA TO THE WEST. THE AMERICAN MEDIA (THO' NOT ALWAYS JUSTIFIED) IS SO FULL OF PRIDE FOR THEIR COUNTRY. MAYBE YOU CAN TAKE SOME POINTERS.
ON THE OTHER HAND, TODAY I CLICKED ON REDIFF. AND THE SITE CATERING TO THE NRIS, HAS A POSITIVE I-DAY SPECIAL THAT WOULD MAKE ANY DOUBTING INDIAN PROUD! There you go !
HOPE WE WILL HAVE BETTER EDUCATED GUESSES AT THE NRI SCENE BY THE INDIAN JOURNOS IN THE FUTURE. I DON'T HAVE ANY HOPES FOR THEM TO DEVELOP ANY SENSE OF PRIDE FOR THEIR MOTHERLAND!!
S.K
hamden, United States
Aug 14, 2008 12:00 AM
145
Yet another Indian journalist proving that journalists are above anybody in India. Indian Journalists easily start crying when people don't agree with what they are writing.

They find it hard to digest the dichotomy of their life that in one hand the ordinary ppl easily digest their crap while the netizens give it back to them in the same currency. For a change why not write an article about the evils of I-s-l-o-m which is a danger not just to this world alone but to the entire universe
ashok krihnamoorthy
columbia, United States
Aug 14, 2008 12:00 AM
144
Full of rhytorics without any objectivity - except ofcourse abusing Hindus and BJP in particular. Braid dead psedo-secular, not surprisingly covering the front page of outdated Outlook!
Ram
Kerela, India
Aug 14, 2008 12:00 AM
143
Lalit,

>> just look at the brightest in india-. are they christians, or muslims.

Were you by any chance a Ku-Klux-Klanner in your last avataar?
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Aug 14, 2008 12:00 AM
142
faruki

stick to my comments.

are they right.if so. admit it.

if not- say so.

even the kkk can be right.
lalitmb
kalundborg, Denmark
Aug 13, 2008 12:00 AM
141
Pal, "J. Barthelemy Saint-Hilaire, A christian missionary and a crusader against Buddhism (which he thoroughly misunderstood), nevertheless, writes in "Buddha And His Religion", Rupa, 2002, regarding Ashoka:"

Basically, you are introducing some unknown person rewriting history as THE history of India. Next you will say that this is the only history of India, all else is false. Know what that is called, revisionism. Grow up, the world is a big place.
Prakash
San Francisco, United States
Aug 13, 2008 12:00 AM
140
Lalit,

>> fortunately the most discerning humans are now
beyond religion and medieval traditions.

People have the freedom to choose. Calling this group "discerning" and that group "undiscerning" is stupidity.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Aug 13, 2008 12:00 AM
139
Ashok,

>>>> There are ugly aspects to all religions, but talking of Islam's ugly aspects is fashionable these days!"
>> Just as fashionable as it is for Muslims to become terrorists, fidayeen and Jehadis.

Probably less than 1% of Muslims or Hindus become terrorists or bajrangis respectively. But a lot more of the sanghis are repugnant hate spewers like yourself.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Aug 13, 2008 12:00 AM
138
Ashok,

>>>> I do not disagree with Hindus raising their voice against injustice.
>> Means: But, why should they come out on the street like us Muslims?

Only an idiot will take that meaning!

>>>> "I said that agitating over the land deal only helps our enemies."
>> Means: Hindus shoudn't agitate.

How come you are so dense?

>>>> "I do not glorify Kashmiri Muslims or any Muslims."
>> Means: I just defend them as prescribed to me by Islam, for they are Muslims.

You seem peculiarly unable to derive the right meaning from any of my statements. Are you dumb?

>>>> "I fight their vilification."
>> Means: I defend them for they are Muslims.

I defend them from bigotic hatemongers and liars like you.

>>>> Making villains out of them has become an easy way to ignore their viewpoint.
>> Means: and their view-point is so simple to understand.

Obscurantism is another nasty technique that hate pracharaks like you use.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Aug 13, 2008 12:00 AM
137
faruki

answer this

obama, hillary and maccain are keeping muslims at arms length.

is not a sign that they have the same bad opinion of muslims, which we have.

is it right that over 60 percent americans want to expell muslims.

look at yourself in the mirror.
lalitmb
kalundborg, Denmark
Aug 13, 2008 12:00 AM
136
faruki

discerning people are like me. civilised and sophisticated.

undiscerning people are like you. bachward, fanatics and misfits in civilised societies and forum like this one.

simple. you have made your bed, now you have to lie on it.
lalitmb
kalundborg, Denmark
Aug 13, 2008 12:00 AM
135

The value of having (things) is well felt while you don't have it. That's what happens with NRIs. When we try to identify ourselves, we bank up on our roots and traditions. I'd say the attitude of NRIs towards India is more positive than the one of the locals in India.

NRIs from Indian point of view or from India might look rich and famous. However, the hard facts are different. Majority of NRIs live in a shoe-string budget, calculating on each penny spent, living in an OK-kind apts, driving used cars, converting foreign currencies into Rupees, planning for a trip to India, looking at deals for every thing they want to spend on....the list continues.

The only immigrants who don't gel with the local culture and population; who still think of their country and the values are our sweet INDIANS.

This's the reason why, you will not find Indians as target audience in commercial ads in foreign lands...
Sasi KC
Reston, United States
Aug 13, 2008 12:00 AM
134
Lalit,

>> discerning people are like me. civilised and sophisticated.

Thanks for providing the laugh of the day!
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Aug 13, 2008 12:00 AM
133
Ashok,

>> Bajrangis are not terrorist.

Tell that to the Gujarati Muslims!

>> 1% Muslims becoming Jehadis is 1% too many!!

True, but I had clearly said "less than 1%." Do you lie from force of habit?

Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Aug 13, 2008 12:00 AM
132
Prakash :

You wrote

'.. Germany has a strong linguistic culture- base over two centuries [Deuchland means German-land], "

Please spare us from your half baked wisdom on this BB till you have at least learned to spell !

Anyone who claims to have graduated from IIT KGP should at least know how to spell. What was your major - Ghaasi ? Or were you perhaps just serving at Chhedis ?
Gaurav Gupta
San Luis Obispo, United States
Aug 13, 2008 12:00 AM
131
Gaurav >>>> "'.. Germany has a strong linguistic culture- base over two centuries [Deuchland means German-land], "
>> "Please spare us from your half baked wisdom on this BB till you have at least learned to spell ! "

You idiot, first check who wrote that, it was written by V. Seshadri, not me. Get lost!!
Prakash
San Francisco, United States
Aug 13, 2008 12:00 AM
130
faruki

if you live in a plural civilised society like
in the usa, you are expected to live by their
values ie dress in a modern western style, and same for the ladies.

i think muslim women particularly should take to smart western attire. skirts, nylon stockings,
hats and gloves.

it will please the americans. put up the american
flag in front of your house, and chat pleasantly
with the neighbours.

avoid bringing attention to your islamic activities.dont sacrifice a lamb in the front
of the house dureing eid. and for heavens sake dont celebratate nine elleven at the islamic centre.

in about 50 years you will be accepted by the
americans around you.

if that is what you are aiming for.think again.
lalitmb
kalundborg, Denmark
Aug 12, 2008 12:00 AM
129
Pal/Bodepudi,

>> The Jihadi terror for over 13 centuries was (is) based on Koranic exhortations to kill the Infidels...

I do not know whether to call you a liar or an idiot, but you certainly are an ignoramus!
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Aug 12, 2008 12:00 AM
128
Pal/Bodepudi,

>> Muslim thugs killed Hindus and Buddhists in their tens of millions.

But then you are a professional liar as well as a hate merchant.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Aug 12, 2008 12:00 AM
127
"The Jihadi terror for over 13 centuries was (is) based on Koranic exhortations to kill the Infidels..." Pal

"I do not know whether to call you a liar or an idiot, but you certainly are an ignoramus!" Jihadi supporter

Another proof, if proff is ever needed, that my statement above must be true!

Pal
Hong Kong, United States
Aug 12, 2008 12:00 AM
126
Pal/Bodepudi,

>> Another proof, if proff is ever needed, that my statement above must be true!

Another proof of how flimsy your "proofs" are!
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Aug 12, 2008 12:00 AM
125
Prakash>>"all you point about Bharath Matha, what have you done for your mother India that makes you the person that decides who loves her and who does not. Give me a break, I am sick of all this stuff."

Sorry if I have hurt your feelings personally. I did not mean to do that.

'Bharat Maataa' was a real force in the minds of my generation, born in the nineteen thirties, witnessing the independance-decades as youngsters in school. When the mahatma was assassinated in 1948, kids in most families, even deep south, coul not eat for a whole day.
Integrative Nationalism was much in the air. After engg-grad in '55, I served in BIT, Ranchi, Bihar, for 7 yrs. The principal there, from Nainital, was almost a dad for dozens of youth from south, teaching there. He and other senior profs signed the financial guarantees for our passports [not reqd these days, my dad too poor to do that] to get visas for our going to USA under TCM scholarship. After MS and pre-doc in US, my scholarship ended, I could have continued on an assistantship and stayed further on, but returned with an 'enthusiasm' to 'serve india', getting my doc from IITM and serving there for 30 yrs until retirement, on a monthly pension which Vinod Mehta once said he was spending on a night's dinner-outing in Delhi!.

Well, mother India was reality in the virtual world of my generation, Gandhi, Nehru, Subhash held in lager-than-real grandeur. I do not blame you, if your generation is unable share that sentiment, after growing up under the self-seeking politicians of the post-emergency politics, with charan singh bringing down morarji's govt, the three aayaa-ram gayaa-ram type of Laals of Haryana, and the kazhagams of TN etc., only worsened with the Lalus, Balus, Gaudas, Rajs, Karats et. al. I do not blame you if you are not able to share my sentiment for nationlism, in these days when reservationist sub-nationalism, sprouting in our young days, has grown to dominate the country as an ugly banyan.

v.seshadri
chennai, india
Aug 12, 2008 12:00 AM
124
Namo, "since about 300BC, hindu/budhist kings of north india faced many agressors like the greeks,persians, huns, kushans etc. most of the time was spent defending "india" rather than attacking other countries. this invasions by outsiders went up to 1947 when india was finally free."

I think that many people in this including V. Seshadri when seeing this do not see one essential thing. The concept of a country also modifies with time. A kingdom is a country. It changes with time. We call it a country now, they called it that at some point in time. Later, it might be called something else. People are obsessed with India. At no point in time before the British did the India come together fully. If you do not see that, you are blind. You can choose to be that, however do not tell people outside India about it without proper references, it will look stupid. Afghanistan has had many religions, in historic order, they include nature worshippers, buddhists, hindus, muslims, sikhs, jews, christians. These religions are introduced due to conquests or trade. Telling that Afghanistan was part of India and making up all these names will get no one anywhere. First is that, Afghanistan did not exist as a country, it was part of different empires at different points in time, so, depending on one's perspective, it belongs to Greece or Maurya or Persia.
Prakash
San Francisco, United States
Aug 12, 2008 12:00 AM
123
Chinese Solution to Kashmir

Hindu// Uighurs make up roughly 45 per cent of Xinjiang’s 20 million population. The number of Han Chinese has been steadily growing since the People’s Liberation Army occupied the region in 1949. Before the arrival of the PLA, an independent East Turkestan republic briefly existed in the region, formed with the support of the Soviet Union.

Han Chinese made up roughly 6 per cent of the population in 1949. According to the 2004 census, Han Chinese constitute around 40 per cent of Xinjiang’s population, more than the Kazakhs and Huis, and only second to the Uighurs. The Chinese government argues that the growing presence of Han Chinese is only a natural indicator of Beijing’s attempts to accelerate industrial development in the region.

Pal
Hong Kong, United States
Aug 12, 2008 12:00 AM
122
"At no point in time before the British did the India come together fully" Prakash

Mauryas united India and look at the spread of the Ashoka Stupas from deep south to Afganistan. You are talking from a "secular" perspective from the history books written by the invaders

Pal
Hong Kong, United States
Aug 12, 2008 12:00 AM
121
Pal, "Mauryas united India and look at the spread of the Ashoka Stupas from deep south to Afganistan."

you are rewriting history again, the south india was never part of the Maurya empire. The deep south was missed out. You can take a look at it. So, Kerala, Karnataka, Tamil Nadu were left out. Take a look.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maurya_empire


Go and read your history. At no point was one empire able to have the whole of it.
Prakash
San Francisco, United States
Aug 12, 2008 12:00 AM
120
"you are rewriting history again, the south india was never part of the Maurya empire. The deep south was missed out. You can take a look at it. So, Kerala, Karnataka, Tamil Nadu were left out. Take a look." Prakash

J. Barthelemy Saint-Hilaire, A christian missionary and a crusader against Buddhism (which he thoroughly misunderstood), nevertheless, writes in "Buddha And His Religion", Rupa, 2002, regarding Ashoka:

" It is difficult to believe, notwithstanding tradition, that these Stupas numbered eighty eight thousand, but Houen-Thsang asserts that he saw with his own eyes monuments attributed to this potentate from the capital of Nagahara, at the foot of the Black Mountains of the Hindu Kush, down to the kingdom of Malakuta, at the southern extremity of the peninsula, and from east to west, from the kingdom of Tamralipti to the borders of the Sindh and even thePersian frontiers. It is therefore extremely probable that Ashoka, who convoked ther secon council, and that his authority was recognized by the multitude of small states-. This is an historical fact that has a certain importance in the annals of India, and which therefore admits of no doubt".

In fact, the Indian history is yet to be written-there is no question of rewriting it. There was the Pre Vedic India and the narratives of Mahabhrata and Ramayana are yet to be fully investigated-in light of the Islamic Fire that destroyed nearly all of the written records of the ancient Indian history

Please consult the memoirs of Houen Thsang and Fa Hien and STUDY the history of Islam in India, fully, before reaching conclusive verdicts on Indian history



"



Pal
Hong Kong, United States
Aug 12, 2008 12:00 AM
119
"you are rewriting history again, the south india was never part of the Maurya empire. The deep south was missed out. You can take a look at it. So, Kerala, Karnataka, Tamil Nadu were left out. Take a look." Prakash

J. Barthelemy Saint-Hilaire, A christian missionary and a crusader against Buddhism (which he thoroughly misunderstood), nevertheless, writes in "Buddha And His Religion", Rupa, 2002, regarding Ashoka:

" It is difficult to believe, notwithstanding tradition, that these Stupas numbered eighty eight thousand, but Houen-Thsang asserts that he saw with his own eyes monuments attributed to this potentate from the capital of Nagahara, at the foot of the Black Mountains of the Hindu Kush, down to the kingdom of Malakuta, at the southern extremity of the peninsula, and from east to west, from the kingdom of Tamralipti to the borders of the Sindh and even the Persian frontiers. It is therefore extremely probable that Ashoka, who convoked ther Second Council, and that his authority was recognized by the multitude of small states-. This is an historical fact that has a certain importance in the annals of India, and which therefore admits of no doubt".

In fact, the Indian history is yet to be written-there is no question of rewriting it. There was the Pre Vedic India and the narratives of Mahabhrata and Ramayana are yet to be fully investigated-in light of the Islamic Fire that destroyed nearly all of the written records of the ancient Indian history

Please consult the memoirs of Houen Thsang and Fa Hien, and you MUST STUDY the history of Islam in India, fully, before rendering conclusive verdicts on the Indian history

Pal
Hong Kong, United States
Aug 12, 2008 12:00 AM
118
A bronze medal for Raj Bhavsar and for his USA gymnastics team at Beijing.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Aug 12, 2008 12:00 AM
117
"One must remember, however, that the NRIs reflect the same bandwidth of opinion as Indians back home,"

True. Remember that one cannot think of India without caste in mind. Indians in US are largely professionals and from upper caste back home. Pretty much same as in India where upper castes benefited from engineering and other professional education.
However, long time NRI in US lived in isolation and are decades old time capsule. Often their Hindu identity and caste pride get amplified several times.
Back in India, upper castes had opportunity to mingle with lower caste counterpart. They are more likely to accept Laloo and Mayawati.

But lately things are changing. Newly arrived NRIs are little more diversified. But there is ways to go.
Rajesh
Phoenix, United States
Aug 12, 2008 12:00 AM
116
Prakash:>>" The concept of a country also modifies with time. A kingdom is a country. It changes with time."

All three statements above are unaccepatable.
England, Scotland and Ireland are recognized as distinct 'countries' over centuries. The United Kingdom encompasses Eng, Scot and only northern Ireland, leading to problems until northern ireland was reunited with ireland as a recognized 'country'. Kingdoms are defined by the region ruled by 'kings' or govts, changing from time to time. Kingdom = raajya in sans, associated with raajaa or king. Country = raashtra in sans, raaga-Saktyaa-traatah iti, meaning 'protected by the power of attachments in popular minds'. Raashtra or country, generally defined by geography, can be divided into many kingdoms, modified by fights among kings from timeto time, some kingdoms may also
extend beyond one country into another, occasionally, for short periods.

>>"We call it a country now, they called it that at some point in time. Later, it might be called something else."

What you say is true in modern definitions of 'countries' as 'nations' recognized internationally by UNO. Not in earlier centuries.

>>" People are obsessed with India."

Well, for ages, purohits have been saying in hindu poojas: meroh dakshiNe paarSwe [south of the earth's nrth-pole ice-cone called meru], jumboo-dveepe [in the eureshyan continent], bhaarata-varshe [in the subhimalayan watershed from arabia to vietnam], bharatah kanDe [in bharata-kanda, i.e. indian subcontinent, from himalaya to sethu, kutch to kaamaroopa, Assam], gangaa-teere [in gangaa river bank, may be in Benares], and so on.
Thus, india as a country, raashTra, has been recognized, more culturally than imperially in pre-brittish times, if you refuse to believe the pre-history of the times of Raghu or Ram or Krishn.

>>"At no point in time before the British did the India come together fully. If you do not see that, you are blind. You can choose to be that, however do not tell people outside India about it without proper references, it will look stupid."

You are quite right, if you disregard prehistory of india, saying history starts only with Greece, Rome and Jesus. Then, of course, the 'blindness' rests with your churchian ego, not with the hindu indians.

>>"Afghanistan has had many religions, in historic order, they include nature worshippers, buddhists, hindus, muslims, sikhs, jews, christians. These religions are introduced due to conquests or trade. Telling that Afghanistan was part of India and making up all these names will get no one anywhere."

No one claims Afghan belonged to bharata-kanDa, India; only part of 'bhaarata-varsha',[the other two watersheds being rosha-varsha of russia/europe and ksheeNa-varsha of china and mangolia]. Bhishma from hastinapur conquered gaandhara and its princess became wife of dhrita-raashtra and mom for the kauravas, Duryodhaan and brothers. You may, of course, deny both ramayan and mahaabhaarat, in line with karunanidhi.

>>"First is that, Afghanistan did not exist as a country, it was part of different empires at different points in time, so, depending on one's perspective, it belongs to Greece or Maurya or Persia."

True, of course. [Greece? I wonder.]
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Aug 12, 2008 12:00 AM
115
faruki

all of us know enough about islam, and its many ugly aspects. dont make a fool of yourself by
denying what is commonly known, taught in muslim schools, preached in your mosques, and revealed by people like dr sultan who know more, and are
definately brighter then you.

if you dont like the ugly aspects, you can opt out of islam. but dont pretend that they dont exist.

you need to eat brain pills.even those from sheep brains should help.
lalitmb
kalundborg, Denmark
Aug 12, 2008 12:00 AM
114
ANWAR

u call others professional liars and hate merchants.....what are u? if you say you are not a liar...then i must say whenever you charge those who raise voice against injustice to Hindus then whatever you say is a BIG MISCONCEPTION BASED ON MISINFORMATION.

and if you say you are not a hate merchant...then i must say by glorifying the muslims for their horryfying acts and denouncing others for their demand of justice ....YOU ARE A COMMUNAL
saraswati
jammu, India
Aug 12, 2008 12:00 AM
113
Why this sudden animosity against NRIs? Have they conspired to artificially boost sales of India Today?
Vishwanath Rao
Bangalore, India
Aug 12, 2008 12:00 AM
112
V. Seshadri, "All three statements above are unaccepatable.England, Scotland and Ireland are recognized as distinct 'countries' over centuries. "

You have conveniently picked a country that has been distinct for a long time. First, even UK is going to split, Scotland is going to become a distinct country. Why dont you pick, say Germany? It came together only in the 18th century, until then it used to be a set of independent city-states. So many other countries like US or Canada did not even exist. Greece was so different. Turkey was part of the Roman Empire after it became separate. Shall I go on? It may be possible that Iraq may split into 3 states. We just saw Yugoslavia split. Europe is changing in so many ways. People say that Pakistan may split. Nothing is static in the world, that is the reality.
Prakash
San Francisco, United States
Aug 12, 2008 12:00 AM
111
Prakash:>>"You have conveniently picked a country that has been distinct for a long time".

But only nations having a strong enduring common culture over a century or more would qualify to be called 'countries'. Hence, my choice.

>>" First, even UK is going to split, Scotland is going to become a distinct country."

That is exactly what I myself said. England, Scotland, separate 'countries' united as a 'kingdom' may split as separate 'countries' again.

>>" Why dont you pick, say Germany? It came together only in the 18th century, until then it used to be a set of independent city-states".

But, Germany has a strong linguistic culture- base over two centuries [Deuchland means German-land], qualifying it as a 'country', like France, England. It is one reason for east and west Germany to be reunited within 3 decades, breaking the Berlin wall. I wont be surprised if india, pak, bangla also get reunited if the middle-classes see the advantage and suppress the lunatic jihad-fringe.

>>"So many other countries like US or Canada did not even exist."

These are nations, in the modern sense of the term.

>>" Greece was so different".

Greece qualifies as a 'country', yavana-deSa, with an ancient civilizn and high-culture values and wisdom from Socrates, Plato and Aristotle.

>>"Turkey was part of the Roman Empire after it became separate. Shall I go on? It may be possible that Iraq may split into 3 states. We just saw Yugoslavia split."

The balkan area has gone thro civilizn-cum-religion conflicts, with very limited stability as 'countries'. In fact, the word 'balkanizn' is used to describe splitting up of countries into sub-nations.

>>"Europe is changing in so many ways."

Europe is becoming another united state like the US, after suffering two world wars, learning painful lessons on such conflicts".

>>"People say that Pakistan may split."

Right, unless the states of pak decide to re-unite with India in a con-federation for the advantage of being part of large globalizing economy.

>>"Nothing is static in the world, that is the reality".

True. But, nevertheless, you must concede 'india' does qualify as an ancient 'country', with changing patterns of kingdoms within and around it, over the millennia. You may remember Colombus started off only to find an alternate sea route for trade with "India" and ended up discovering America!
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Aug 12, 2008 12:00 AM
110
Seshadri, "But, Germany has a strong linguistic culture- base over two centuries [Deuchland means German-land], qualifying it as a 'country', like France, England. It is one reason for east and west Germany to be reunited within 3 decades, breaking the Berlin wall. "

If you are picking based on linguistics you are off again as Austria and Germany should be together, but they were never together. Austria was part of the Austro-Hungarian empire while Germany was in Prussia. The only time they were together was briefly during WW2.

>> That is exactly what I myself said. England, Scotland, separate 'countries' united as a 'kingdom' may split as separate 'countries' again.

Scotland does not want to be part of the Britain any more. Neither does Ireland. Especially the Irish have had enough. Have you read how the Irish were made part of UK, it was nasty. If I was Irish, I would not want to be part of Britain.

It takes more than a culture to make a country, people who were part of one culture have split at times. Look at Latvia and Lithuania, they are very similar, but have become separate.

Some times, states in US want to become separate countries as they feel that they can do better as individual nations. This includes Texas, California. During the civil war one of the biggest things that forced President Lincoln was keeping the states together. So, economy is also a big reason. If a lot of poor and under performing states drain a set of rich states, they eventually may want to break away. Countries are formed for a multitude of reasons. If you think that it is for culture, that is simplistic.
Prakash
San Francisco, United States
Aug 12, 2008 12:00 AM
109
Seshadri, "Greece qualifies as a 'country', yavana-deSa, with an ancient civilizn and high-culture values and wisdom from Socrates, Plato and Aristotle."

Greece has been several things. It was one country, then it has been city states, based on Macedonia etc. This is despite it having one culture. In fact, when Darius from Persia tried to conquer Greece, it was not one country. So, it has changed in many ways over time. You can see


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Greece


During the roman times, they were city states and paid homage to Rome. They were different during the Byzantine empire. So, countries look different in time.

>>But, nevertheless, you must concede 'india' does qualify as an ancient 'country', with changing patterns of kingdoms within and around it, over the millennia.

India has gone through changes but it is a young country, it has a rich past, but it is not a whole until the last 150 years or so. Before that, it was a set of kingdoms that were separate. If they were not separate, Britain could have never taken over it so easily.
Prakash
San Francisco, United States
Aug 12, 2008 12:00 AM
108
Lalit,

>> all of us know enough about islam, and its many ugly aspects.

There are ugly aspects to all religions, but talking of Islam's ugly aspects is fashionable these days!
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Aug 12, 2008 12:00 AM
107
Saraswati,

>> whenever you charge those who raise voice against injustice to Hindus.

I do not disagree with Hindus raising their voice against injustice. I said that agitating over the land deal only helps our enemies.

>> by glorifying the muslims for their horryfying acts.

I do not glorify Kashmiri Muslims or any Muslims. I fight their vilification. Making villains out of them has become an easy way to ignore their viewpoint.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Aug 12, 2008 12:00 AM
106
Seshadri, "Europe is becoming another united state like the US, after suffering two world wars, learning painful lessons on such conflicts". "

That is true.

>>"Right, unless the states of pak decide to re-unite with India in a con-federation for the advantage of being part of large globalizing economy."

That would be OK in the long run if India can get over the handle and work on economy and reduce the focus on the religion. However, you can see from the rants and raves that it is not likely in the near future.
Prakash
San Francisco, United States
Aug 12, 2008 12:00 AM
105
fraruki

all religions have some ugly aspects.

fortunately the most discerning humans are now
beyond religion and medieval traditions.

europe is now in a post christian era.

modern hindus use religion to add a a bit of glitter to their lives. even the poor hindus are
not so much shackled by religion as muslims are.

however you yourself are mired in dogmatism and
supersticion. even your long stay in usa has made
no difference. this is the same for most muslims in the west as well.

thats why muslims and the rest are natural adverseries. thats why i believe that muslims should live on their own. and thats why i believe kashmiri muslims should be allowed to leave india.

the communalism and bigotry of kashmiri muslims has been in evidence for decades. the congress and secularists dare not accept this, because it wll discredit their special relationship with muslims- primarily for votes.

my family has originated from north west frontier
provoince. we worked for and with the british.

after 1947 we had to leave- because otherwise we
would been killed. our properties were confiscated. we accepted as a fact that the muslims would kill us because of the way they had
been taught to hate hindus.

this can be seen in pakistan today. the muslims
there are cruel, bigoted and hateful creatures.
not fit to live in civilised societies. your
quoteing a few good verses from the koran are
insignificant in comparison with the overwhelming
number of hate messages.

the behaviour of muslims when ever they are in power is ultimately the final argument against
islam-

i am afraid that all of us consider you to be hypocrtical, biased, dogmatic and untruthful.
you are the fanatical muslim who dr sultan describes in her talks and interviews.

imagine that with all the information, new thinking available to you in usa, you have not been able to free yourself from islam.

europeans now believe that muslims will not change, and all that they wish for is to to see
the least possible of them.

it true .check it out in the british media.
lalitmb
kalundborg, Denmark
Aug 12, 2008 12:00 AM
104
"Before that, it was a set of kingdoms that were separate. If they were not separate, Britain could have never taken over it so easily."

There were shifting borders within a cultural/ civilizational confluence of EXPERIENTIAL traditions and spiritual traditions based on ONENESS.
Pal
Hong Kong, United States
Aug 12, 2008 12:00 AM
103
Indian identity: Geographical and Spiritual

J. Barthelemy Saint-Hilaire, A christian missionary and a crusader against Buddhism (which he thoroughly misunderstood), nevertheless, writes in "Buddha And His Religion", Rupa, 2002, regarding Ashoka:

" It is difficult to believe, notwithstanding tradition, that these Stupas numbered eighty eight thousand, but Houen-Thsang asserts that he saw with his own eyes monuments attributed to this potentate from the capital of Nagahara, at the foot of the Black Mountains of the Hindu Kush, down to the kingdom of Malakuta, at the southern extremity of the peninsula, and from east to west, from the kingdom of Tamralipti to the borders of the Sindh and even the Persian frontiers. It is therefore extremely probable that Ashoka, who convoked ther Second Council, and that his authority was recognized by the multitude of small states-. This is an historical fact that has a certain importance in the annals of India, and which therefore admits of no doubt".
Pal
Hong Kong, United States
Aug 11, 2008 12:00 AM
102
Seshadri,

>> In that case, the agenda of jihadi-islam from its inception 15 centuries ago....

The phrase "jihadi Islam" is a recent invention. Strictly speaking it is an incorrect use of the word'jihadi'.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Aug 11, 2008 12:00 AM
101
In one word, this is another article from another pseudo secular writer..
You seem to be so obsessed with Hindu supremacy.. why dont you write the Muslim supremacy tendencies.. or the christian power play through out india..

The very starting of your article, has shown you who you are..

While you accuse NRI Hindus of hate speech/chat, isnt this very article an expression of hatred towards Hindu People..

As per your logic, all those hindus who silently watches the discrimination against them, are peace loving, good people.. Those who fights back, demands justice are hatred people..

God.. who gave you this moral authority to decide who is good and bad..

senthil
chennai, India
Aug 11, 2008 12:00 AM
100
Anwar, while it is true that the US supported Taliban and encouraged them, I did not know Israel supported them. Can you show me where this is listed please? I cannot find it anywhere in the web, of course I am not a good searcher.
Prakash
San Francisco, United States
Aug 11, 2008 12:00 AM
99
Anwar, let me give some data on the people who were used as priests in Mosques in US. The Saudis had used diplomatic quota to hire people from Africa who were not even from Saudi Arabia as priests for some mosques in US for their ultra orthodox preaching. After 9/11, these were found out and these people were sent back. The basic problem is not with Islam but with the way it is being given to people in US. As US is getting more careful about immigration, we do not people who are good at Wahhabism but good at other things. Of late, Saudi Arabia is realizing that it cannot get away with this and is trying to improve its image in the US. However, it has a long way to go.
Prakash
San Francisco, United States
Aug 11, 2008 12:00 AM
98
Prakash,

"Most of the Afghan war against the Soviet Union was fought using Israeli arms supplied after General Ziaul Haq entered into secret deals with Tel Aviv"


http://www.rense.com/general39/pakh.htm

Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Aug 11, 2008 12:00 AM
97
Anwar, you are basing it on that book. I have read the reviews of that book from all sources including the new york times. Most of the data in that is verifiable through other sources. It is all bogus. You can come up with a book like that as it is still classified.

To quote new york times, ''Charlie Wilson's War'' is a behind-the-scenes chronicle of a program that is still largely classified. Crile does not provide much insight into his reporting methods, but the book appears to be based on interviews with a number of the principals. The result is a vivid narrative, though a reader may wonder how much of this story is true in exactly the way Crile presents it. Still, few people who remember Wilson's years in Washington would discount even the wildest tales.

Please use better methods to back it up.
Prakash
San Francisco, United States
Aug 11, 2008 12:00 AM
96
Sorry, I missaid one of my statements, it must read

Most of the data in that is not verifiable through other sources.

A book is solid only if backed up by independent sources, something like "A Problem From Hell" by Samantha Power. It shows all the places it derives its references.
Prakash
San Francisco, United States
Aug 11, 2008 12:00 AM
95
Praksh,

The Israeli connection in Wilson's book was also portrayed vividly in last year's popular movie, "Charlie Wilson's War". Do you know if anyone has contrdicted the story?
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Aug 11, 2008 12:00 AM
94
Anwar, you need to base your premises on better data. Those with references. The movie is based on the book and received better ratings (but not reviews). To quote new york times

The Charlie Wilson on the screen is more honorable and less reckless than the real one. Left on the cutting-room floor was a scene of Mr. Wilson in a drunk-driving accident. And the movie doesn’t depict some of the book’s wackier moments. There is no mention of Mr. Wilson’s dispute with the Pentagon after he sought to bring Annelise (Sweetums) Ilschenko, a former Miss U.S.A.-World, on a Defense Intelligence Agency plane in Pakistan. And though a memorable belly dancing scene remains, it ignores the part where the dancer brandishes a sword at the Egyptian defense minister, taking aim at his groin. Even Mr. Wilson, who at 74 underwent heart-transplant surgery in September, emerging from quarantine for the first time to attend the premiere on Monday night in Los Angeles, said, “They were kind to me.”

Please do a better job of what you chose for what you base your data on. It never states at any time that it has references and backup data. Without that, you will fail. Sorry.
Prakash
San Francisco, United States
Aug 11, 2008 12:00 AM
93
Praksh,

If a story appears in a popular book and a popular movie, it means that a lot of people have seen it. If it is untrue, surely someone would contradict it.

As the new York Times said, "few people who remember Wilson's years in Washington would discount even the wildest tales", meaning that even his wildest tales are likely to be true.

If you come across any information about someone contradicting the Israel connection, do let me know.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Aug 11, 2008 12:00 AM
92
AP:>>"The phrase "jihadi Islam" is a recent invention"

The 'phrase' could be a recent 'invention'. But, the majority of moslems today seem to be only 'jislamic', see China is also getting serial blasts! Perhaps, over the past millennium also, islam has only been operating as 'jislam'. Otherwise, only Arabia should be islam-sthan today, like India being Hindusthan. Iran would only be Parsisthan, Afghan only Buddhisthan. Only small colonies of moslems in all south-asian states, as it is now in Europe.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Aug 11, 2008 12:00 AM
91
Anwar, you are believing a book and a movie that has been run down by the New York Times without any references. That is fine, that is your choice. However, do not use it to back up your word, you will be laughed at in any proper history place. The world does not work that way. You cannot say, "The Afghan freedom fighters, were supported by the US and even Israel", that is not right, as you are not using a legitimate source to back it up with your source.
Prakash
San Francisco, United States
Aug 11, 2008 12:00 AM
90
Prakash,

>> do not use it to back up your word, you will be laughed at in any proper history place.

Anyone can say that! But you have to cite a source which says that the story about Israeli connection is not true.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Aug 11, 2008 12:00 AM
89
Anwar, I did not make the statement, you did. So, it is upto you to prove it. You can do it with different methods - scientific, documentary, geographic. People have done different mechanisms in the past, however, one cannot issue statements in the air or use books that are without reference. However, the onus is on you, not on me. I did not make the statement, I do not have to prove that it is untrue. That is not the way history works, no one will take you seriously this way.
Prakash
San Francisco, United States
Aug 11, 2008 12:00 AM
88
Prakash,

>> no one will take you seriously this way.

I am not attending any history conference. I am just telling you where I got the story about the Israeli connection. You don't have to believe it. I believe it. If you come up with any material that refutes it, I shall stop believing it.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Aug 11, 2008 12:00 AM
87
Anwar, it is OK for you to believe anything. Your standards for believing something are a bit unusual, but that is your choice. However, with this, you cannot call Lalit a liar, you need to improve your quality before you call others a liar. That is all.
Prakash
San Francisco, United States
Aug 11, 2008 12:00 AM
86
Prakash,

>> Your standards for believing something are a bit unusual.

You are taking this to absurd lengths. George Crile's book "Charlie Wilson's War" came out in 2003. The movie came out in 2007. Millions of people have seen the movie, and thousands have read the book. Hundreds of reviews of the book and the movie have been written. And yet no one either from the US government or the Israeli government has ever challenged the story! None of the retired CIA or the Mossad agents, who can't stop talking after they have retired, have said anything either. You are carrying on this argument with great confidence without offering anything to refute the story! As I said before, if and when you quote somebody who says the story is false, I shall be with you on this. Fair enough?
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Aug 11, 2008 12:00 AM
85
Anwar, "None of the retired CIA or the Mossad agents, who can't stop talking after they have retired", you are wrong there. People who leave their services cannot talk about it ever. That is part of it, if you cannot see that, you are crazy. In fact, most members of CIA and Mossad never even admit that they have worked there. That is true in most countries, including in MI6.

Do you really think that US or any country will come and confirm or deny every book or movie made about the CIA. They have better things to do in their life. CIA is top secret, even you can see that. Some things leak out, however, it is not the role. The US govt has a bigger role than this, get it?
Prakash
San Francisco, United States
Aug 11, 2008 12:00 AM
84
Prakash,

>> People who leave their services cannot talk about it ever.

They write best-seller books and appear on CNN and Fox news!
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Aug 11, 2008 12:00 AM
83
Anwar, most of the times, it is not the original person who writes the books. They will not dare too, they will get into deep trouble. A lot of people have good imagination and can write these books, that is the power of imagination. Then people believe them. Did you see the CIA lady, Valerie Plame who was revealed. She did not write any book that would reveal stuff that would give away world secret info. All books go through detailed review for such people.
Prakash
San Francisco, United States
Aug 11, 2008 12:00 AM
82
Prakash,

>> it is not the original person who writes the books.

Not true. Valerie Plame herself wrote "Fair Game", and gave several TV interviews. Mike Scheuer, a senior CIA officer, wrote two book about his work and was on CBS Sixty Minutes. I can come up with at least a dozen names like this, but I have other things to do.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Aug 11, 2008 12:00 AM
81
Anwar, that is what I said, when they write books, they go through detailed reviews inside the CIA. That is the way it is in all countries. Some countries do not allow that even. I have read her book, the book does not go into any detail about her assignments. It does not talk about any of the other people she was assigned with, their names, the main tasks. It goes in detail about her personal involvement with the CIA, how she liked her job, her connection with her husband etc. So, a lot of attention is paid to make sure that no other main assignment or task is given away in any such book. That is what I meant.
Prakash
San Francisco, United States
Aug 11, 2008 12:00 AM
80
Anwar, you need to do a better job of looking at what I wrote. I wrote,

>>"Anwar, most of the times, it is not the >>original person who writes the books."

>>All books go through detailed review for such >>people.

You wrote back,

>>>> it is not the original person who writes the books.

>>Not true. Valerie Plame herself wrote "Fair >>Game",

Please be more careful, it can make a difference between wrong and maybe right. I hope that you know the difference.
You conveniently left out the most of the time.
Prakash
San Francisco, United States
Aug 11, 2008 12:00 AM
79
Praksh,

>> when they write books, they go through detailed reviews inside the CIA.

They do not want some operations to be revealed. But we have been talking about an operation that is already in a book and in a movie. If it was a lie, saying so is not the same thing as revealing a secret operation.

>> you need to do a better job of looking at what I wrote.

???
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Aug 11, 2008 12:00 AM
78
Ashok,

>> When the whole idepology is worng, how does it matter whether one calls it Jehadi or Fasadi?

Whose ideology is right? Is your ideology right? Your rotten breeding seems to be your most prominent characteristic!
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Aug 11, 2008 12:00 AM
77
Anwar, the person who wrote it was not a CIA operative, it was not based on a reference, you still believe it. When books are written by CIA operatives, they cannot give details of anything that is considered important. So everything is without value.

I wrote, "most of them CIA operatives do not write themselves". You cut out part of it and said, "they do not write themselves". Then you replied for this as "Not true."
Prakash
San Francisco, United States
Aug 11, 2008 12:00 AM
76
Ashok,

>> Just look in the category of "Conspiracy Theories of Muslims", where you will find this alongside stories of how USA and Jews knocked-off Twin Towers...

What an idiotic remark from this moron!
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Aug 11, 2008 12:00 AM
75
Prakash,

>> the person who wrote it was not a CIA operative, it was not based on a reference.

I did not say it was written by a CIA operative. I said that for CIA to refute it, if it was false, would not be the same thing as revealing a secret operation.

>> I wrote, "most of them CIA operatives do not write themselves"

Big deal!
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Aug 11, 2008 12:00 AM
74
Ashok,

>> Anwar's argument is simple. You float a lie lie.

You are both a liar and an idiot!
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Aug 11, 2008 12:00 AM
73
Ashok,

>> in 3,500 years of their known existence, Hindus have never invaded another country.....

Self-glorification again! Coming from a base hate-monger like you, it does Hinduism, a great religion, no favors.

>> Hindus, who accept everybody and welcome all religions....

Good Hindus do, but vicious bigots like you want to take crdit for it!
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Aug 11, 2008 12:00 AM
72
"in 3,500 years of their known existence, Hindus have never invaded another country....." Ashok

"Self-glorification again! Coming from a base hate-monger like you, it does Hinduism, a great religion, no favors." Anwar Patel

Truth is truth, who ever says it. If the message is right, messenger doesn't matter. Unfortunately, with Theocratic Islam, the Message is of eternal warfare with Infidels and predictably the language of Islam had consistently been negative, divisive, abusive and full of Hate-as your quote above proves, quite transparently.
Pal
Hong Kong, United States
Aug 11, 2008 12:00 AM
71
Pal/Bodepudi,

>> If the message is right, messenger doesn't matter.

So you agree that Ashok is a base hate-monger just like yourself.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Aug 11, 2008 12:00 AM
70
Vinod, what you are saying is not true. Hindus have also invaded countries. The Maurya empire was one of the largest and was created by conquering other countries. So, were other empires. It is not a prestige of Islam or Christianity, so please do not reinvent history. Invasion of countries is a human thing, it has nothing to do with religion.
Prakash
San Francisco, United States
Aug 11, 2008 12:00 AM
69
[Bindra wins gold in 10m Air Rifle event
NDTV Correspondent
8/11/2008 10:15:00 AM]
lookout bug me not
mumbai, India
Aug 11, 2008 12:00 AM
68
" Hindus have also invaded countries "

Examples pleae ? No proof that Maya culture was due Hindus's subjugation .


But Prakash you made me feel proud that at least my great great Grandfathers were BHADURS ! Had this tradition continued I would have still been a Hindu.
Khushi Ram
ambala cantt, India
Aug 11, 2008 12:00 AM
67
Khunshi, here is the example I gave, the Maurya empire conquered Afghanistan, Persia. I can give others too. In south india, the Chola empire conquered places in Java and Sumatra. There are lots of examples in north india too.
Prakash
San Francisco, United States
Aug 11, 2008 12:00 AM
66
Mauraya never ruled Persia.May be some Budhh Bhikkus might have went there.Afganistan was always the Part of India.Even there too Mauryas did not ruled.Only Budh Bikkus went there.

Maurayas started to rule parts of India after the Alendra's invasion.Even after the arrival of Mauryas Afganistan was still under the Selukus Governor of Alexander.

Persia Alexendra had conqured before invading India.
Khushi Ram
ambala cantt, India
Aug 11, 2008 12:00 AM
65
Khushi Ram, please see about the Maurya Empire and what they had.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maurya_Empire


It is based on conquests. This is before Islam existed in Afghanistan and Persia. It led to Buddhism in these places during the time of Ashoka.
Prakash
San Francisco, United States
Aug 11, 2008 12:00 AM
64
Khushi Ram, Afghanistan was never part of India. Now you are stating new things. India was never a country. All these were separate kingdoms. What the Mauryas did was conquer all of them and introduce their version in them. It did in parts of Persia too.
Prakash
San Francisco, United States
Aug 11, 2008 12:00 AM
63
Prakash:>>"India was never a country"

A very convenient perception for basically antinational conversionist churchians.
But, for devout hindus, india is seen as the bahaarat-maataa, from sethu to himaacala, 'aasetu-himaalaya' as it is usually referred to. Another is 'sapta-sindhu', land of seven rivers including gangaa, jumna, godavaree, saraswti, narmada, sindhu and kaveri.

After daakshaayani's self-immolation, her charred body bits were thrown all over india, fell in 51 different places of shakti-worship, from vaishnavi in the north to kanyaa-kumari in the south; when chinese attacked in 1962 and Nehru was paralized, the poorvaacaarya of kanchi was approached for blessing: he gave a sanskrit talk on AIR, saying the cosmomom in 51 sakti shrines in india including kaakakhya in assam will always protect india; soon after, the chinese soldiers packed their bags and went back by themselves! It was assumed they had run out of rations in their bags!.

Every major monarch in india could do the aswamedha yagjna or raajasooya yaaga only after bringing the whole of india under his control. Raghu, Rama, and Yudhishtira, for example.

India is an indestructible nation for those who love her and revere her saying 'vande maataram'. For anti-nationals like you, she is not even a country. So be it. You should be happy to be out of india, anyway.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Aug 11, 2008 12:00 AM
62
Prakash:>>"Afghanistan was never part of India"

Gaandhaara, 'Khandahaar' in Aapa-gaana-sthaana, Afghan today, was the birthplace of Duryodhan's mom, Gaandhharee. It as part of the empire under
yudhishtira after the kurukshetra war.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Aug 11, 2008 12:00 AM
61
Prakash /Dr.Seshadri

Thanks for the information.But uncle Seshadri has a valid point too .

Dr. Sheshadri did you find any instance where the Hindusism wa sspread on strenght of the Sword ?

Curious to know.

Khushi Ram
ambala cantt, India
Aug 11, 2008 12:00 AM
60
KR:>>"Dr. Sheshadri did you find any instance where the Hindusism wa sspread on strenght of the Sword ? Curious to know"

Not to my knowledge. Sanatan dharma recognozed and still recognizes all worships with faith and humility of godhead in any name or form. Hence, war for spread of any one worship-pattern was never reqd. But, dharma implied ahimsa, non-hurt of passive individuals, nations. Asura, Rakshasa kings were killed by hindu divines, like naraka by krishn, ravan by ram, bec these demons grossly violated the sexual freedom and chastity of women, a worst form of 'adharma' as per hinduim. These were not for territorial enlargements, only for establishment of justice.

In fact, the emperors doing aswa-medha sacrifice did not take-over all the other kingdoms in the country under their direct rule. They only collected the surplus wealth of all kings, chieftains, loaded on horses and brought to the sacrificial fire-site. The tired-horse's mouth-foam [aswa-medha] was symbolically put into the fire, and then, the gold/silver collected was given as charity to the really poor people coming to the yaja-maana emperor, from all over the country; thus, it was nation-wide socialism directly implemented without intermediaries, getting the surplus money from rich and distributing it to the poor! Kalidasa says, Raghu had a poor man arriving late in ayodhya from deep south, after his yagjna was over and all collections distributed. Not wanting to disappoint him, Raghu goes north to kubera in north-pole alaka-mount [their chariots had flight-capabilty when reqd], gets some gold from him and gives it the late-comer mendicant. India's prehistory has had a largely benevolent culture, worth being proud of.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Aug 11, 2008 12:00 AM
59
Seema says:
It's true that hundreds of extremist Muslim websites, including some created specially for women, spread even more hate, teach terror and generally lash out at the "infidels".

It is also true that the lefty crowd generally feels constrained calling them on it. It defends all manner of retrograde declarations in the name of "religious sensitivity".

When an Indian-born Muslim woman took up the fight to pray alongside men in the mosque, there was little support either from the larger South Asian academic world or from women in general.

I wonder is all is this is true, why she chose to signal out only Hindu organisations. if muslim organisations, in her own words, 'spread even more hate', did she ever write about them? No. Why then she is she picking on Hindu organisations that spead less hate and have not planned terrorist attacks anywhere in the world?

But, as someone in this forum said, Seema should keep writing and people should keep reading her. She and her kind are pushing more and more hindus towards BJP.
Kiran Bagachi
mumbai, India
Aug 11, 2008 12:00 AM
58
Which Gets The NRI Worked Up:
India's negative portrayal in the western press before it became an economic success story. Articles about cows, caste system, corruption were front-page news.

I wonder why NRIs get worked up on the negative portrayal of India in the western press before it became an economic success story. I mean what was there to get worked up? Why the NRI couldn’t keep quite or nodded in agreement when the ignorant world ridiculed their country? How rude could they be? If the world thinks of India as a country of cows, snake-charmers and yogis sleeping on nail beds, who the hell were NRIs to disagree?

And who asked them to take offence for such portrayal and protest by violent means? Why did they riot on American streets? Stabbed Americans? Planted bombs or flew airplanes into buildings?

Also, why should they get worked up for the pro-pak policies of the US in the '80s? why they didn’t approve of the tacit acceptance of missile transfers from China to Pakistan? After all, the Left never complained, the muslims never complained. What bee got into the bonnet of Hindu organizations?

Bad hindus!!
Kiran Bagachi
mumbai, India
Aug 11, 2008 12:00 AM
57
I am astounded at Outlook.

This 'article',is a most elaborate hate mail
and Outlook has published it as an article.

Once earlier I had reasons to refer to an article as a moral debasement of Outlook. This time too I feel soiled at having written to Outlook India on various issues.

Please, for sake of sanity do not grant such hate mails the position that you have,-perhaps inadvertently(?) given.
Atul Chandra
mUMBAI, INDIA
Aug 11, 2008 12:00 AM
56
Further to my last mail..

Please note that I wholeheartedly support Seema Sirohi's right to point out what she observes-even if it is lopsided and not completely clear on priorities-but OutlookIndia should have published it as a column in the 'interactive' section, where anybody can put in what they feel.

By publishing it as an article OutlookIndia has debased itself.
Atul Chandra
mUMBAI, INDIA
Aug 11, 2008 12:00 AM
55
faruki

i get mails from various people from india,
who are extremely angry with the govt, muslims
for the current situation. i dont read them.
there are too many.

however i am glad that the frustrations of hindus in jammu are comeing out in the open. we
can see also the completely uncompromiseing
attitude of kashmiri muslims. they are quite
smug haveing expelled the hindu pandits. they have launched a huge hate campaign wrt the land for pilgrims.


the good thing will be if there is a division of j and k, which will prove my central point,that
coexistense of muslims and nonmuslims is a lousy
deal for hindus.

secularism in india is the most hypocritical
idealogy practiced any where. it allows govts
to placate a backward, unreasoneable and irrational minority at the expense of a majority
struggleing against all odds to find a better
future. this has been the bitter experience of europe also, and now islamophobia is an established fact here.

europe today however is prosperous, with efficient and fair institutions. the govts do not
pander to muslim interests, and muslims do not
serve to block progress, as they do in india.

i think by now hindu middle classes have seen the blatant methods by govts to appease muslims
in many irrational causes. i am furious that a
backward minority can decide tasleema nasreens
future-whether she can live in india, or whether
she is allowed freedom to speak.

i hope that jammu and ladakh get to be hindu
and budhist states just as kashmir is a wholely
muslim state.

i hope this will be followed with other adjustments so that the hindus and nonmuslims
are not hindered and blocked by a backward muslim community,which is fast anchored to the 7th century.

muslims in kashmir have by example shown us the typical attitudes of muslims in india.hindus should learn from this lesson, and not forget it.
lalitmb
kalundborg, Denmark
Aug 11, 2008 12:00 AM
54
seema sirohi

I have lived abroad for most of my life, and I have many relations liveing in USA and Britain.

They are all well educated, prosperous, and get
on well with their Amrican compatriots.

They show no sign of religious madness. They send
their children to elite schools and universities.
Given time I believe that they will become conservative Americans- not my cup of tea- but definately not conservative Hindus.

Some of their children marry amongst Americans,
and many of the young have no connection with India.

There may be some Hindus who are dogmatic Hindus.
However I have never met even one, and I have on
the other hand met only the Americanised Indians.

So I regard your article as an angry and biased
view, which reflects the attitudes of muslims and not Hindus.

Finally I read only praise about India in the Danish press, and only negative views about Pakistan, your favoured country.
lalitmb
kalundborg, Denmark
Aug 11, 2008 12:00 AM
53
Indonesia yearning to be liberated from Theocratic Fascism

Jakarta (AsiaNews) - More than 3,500 Christians have protested in Jayapura, the capital of Indonesian Papua, against the introduction of sharia, Islamic law, in the region.
The demonstration of a few days ago was organized by the Indonesian Christian Communication Forum, and took place to the cry of "Papua Pancasila, yes. Papua Syariat Islam, no!". Pancasila, literally "the five basic pillars", is the official ideology of the state founded on modern democratic principles like freedom of expression and of religion. Recently in Jakarta there has been talk of introducing sharia in Indonesia. The Christians of the province object that Papua enjoys special legal autonomy, which would prevent the introduction of such law without local approval.

The demonstrators went to the offices of the provincial government, where Tedjo Suprato (who is standing in for the governor Barnabas Suebu, a Catholic, in Mexico on official business) reassured them that Islamic law will not be adopted in Papua....

Pal
Hong Kong, United States
Aug 11, 2008 12:00 AM
52
Namo, there is no such thing as the Aryan invasion theory, it is a myth that has no proof based on DNA. A lot of the invasion is based on commerce, how do you think that the British invaded and took over different places in India? It is not to spread christianity, it is mainly to enhance their economy. So, a lot of hindu kings did invasion for similar reasons at different times, to enhance their economy and protect their commerce. Only rarely do people use ideas like spreading religion as a reason, I do not imply that it does not exist, statistically, the probability is low.
Prakash
San Francisco, United States
Aug 11, 2008 12:00 AM
51
"Only rarely do people use ideas like spreading religion as a reason, I do not imply that it does not exist, statistically, the probability is low." Prakash

British had sent the Missionaries and Troops for protecting the East India Comnpany commerce. Saudi Arabia trains missionaries in Mosques and Madarasas and funds the Muslim population explosion through subsidies to millions of families through Islamic charities.

The 9/11 terror was not for commerce, nor the Al Queda movement is for profits. The Jihadi terror for over 13 centuries was (is) based on Koranic exhortations to kill the Infidels and to punish the Unbelievers in all sorts of ways-definitely not for commerce, but only for propagation of theocratic fascism. The commercial aspect you speak of, perhaps, is related the tax free treatment of jihadi ventures-for building Mosques and Madarasas
Pal
Hong Kong, United States
Aug 11, 2008 12:00 AM
50
Pal, you have no idea what you are talking about. Let me point out, the British never invaded India for Christianity. It was for commerce. They might have sent missionaries later, but that was a byproduct, not the main reason.

Saudi Arabia sends missionaries everywhere and promotes madrassas, but has not invaded any country so far, we are talking about invasion. You are confusing different topics.

Next 9/11 is an act of terrorism. Terrorism is different from invasion by an army. I do not think that any country in the world would dare to invade US at the moment. You are totally lost.
Prakash
San Francisco, United States
Aug 11, 2008 12:00 AM
49
Namo,

>> it is left to "hindu fanatics" like us to shout from the rooftops.

Speaking about Hindu history and culture is good, but lying is not necessary. There was as much bloodshed in pre-Islamic India as there was during the Muslim period. Just during the 140 years of the Maurya period, there were over 25 bloody wars, including Ashok's invasion of Kalinga, which alone accounted for over 100,000 deaths. Conquest over Buddhism too was not as peaceful as it is touted to be. This does not mean that Hindu history is more violent than histories of other people elsewhere in the world. Hindus, for example, never burned 6 million members of a minority in any holocaust. Nor did Muslims. European colonization of the Americas inflicted, according to some estimates, up to 15 million deaths. Neither the Hindus nor the Muslims ever wreaked such havoc.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Aug 11, 2008 12:00 AM
48
"Pal, you have no idea what you are talking about. Let me point out, the British never invaded India for Christianity. It was for commerce. They might have sent missionaries later, but that was a byproduct, not the main reason.
Saudi Arabia sends missionaries everywhere and promotes madrassas, but has not invaded any country so far, we are talking about invasion. You are confusing different topics." Prakash

You are correct to the extent that the British imperialism (mainly, profits) can not be conflated with the theocratic Islamic imperialism-which is political and ideological and territorial (spreading the messge of Allah through jihadi wars and the barbaric Sharia Laws). Hitler's motive was ideological-not commercial. Bolsheviks and Gulags, the Cultural Revolotion and the Red Guards were motivated by ideolohy-similar to the Islamic theocratic fascism-which destroyed cultures and freddoms across a wide swath of the entire Middle East, North Africa, North India and Central Asia. In its wake it genocidally killed tens of millions of Jews, Christians, Parsees, Zoroastrians, Majlees, Hindus, Buddhists, Sikhs, Jains, Ahmediyas and countless other cultures and traditions in these countries. Tens of thousands of temples were destroyed-not all for just the loot. To carry the Koranic injunction-kill the Infidels. Was the partitional genocide for commercial purpposes?

Nearly ALL johadi movements are territorial, not commercial, although the theocratic thugs invaded India many times for loot and plunder.

Demographic invasion: The old style of invasion is no longer feasible. The Islamic invasions are now is carried through demographic conquest-in Indabia and Eurabia
Pal
Hong Kong, United States
Aug 11, 2008 12:00 AM
47
"European colonization of the Americas inflicted, according to some estimates, up to 15 million deaths. Neither the Hindus nor the Muslims ever wreaked such havoc." AP

Muslim thugs killed Hindus and Buddhists in their tens of millions. You can not compare the Nazism of the Third Reich to Jews, nor conflate Muslims to Hindus. Hitler was merciful since his reign of terror lasted few years-but the Islamic terror since the 712 Sindh massacres still goes on-in Kashmir and all over India


Pal
Hong Kong, United States
Aug 11, 2008 12:00 AM
46
V. Seshadri "India is an indestructible nation for those who love her and revere her saying 'vande maataram'. For anti-nationals like you, she is not even a country. So be it. You should be happy to be out of india, anyway."

You do not have to give statements like that. It takes more than things like that to make up national pride. You can say anything you want about me, call me an anti-national, however, you have yet to give a rational argument to justify the truth. Coming to a different point, for all you point about Bharath Matha, what have you done for your mother India that makes you the person that decides who loves her and who does not. Give me a break, I am sick of all this stuff. Go back and prove yourself before you talk.
Prakash
San Francisco, United States
Aug 10, 2008 12:00 AM
45
"Seema: Please answer the above queries, one by one." Pal

"You are back with your single-issue hate campaign. Your solitary goal is to divide Indians against Indians and to discourage communal harmony. This is not the kind of prachaar India needs at this time." Anwar Patel/Ghulam Faruki

You are back with your pro-terrorist propaganda. You have never answered why you are closely identified with CAIR, condemned by two senior senators as pro-terrorist, whose many members are in US jails for conspiracy charges. Nor did you explain how and why Al Queda terrorists can be equated with BJP supporters! You are a defender of the Islamic pogroms and rule in India
and never explained what had you and other "Moderate" Muslims had done regarding an ongoing genocide of Kashmiri Pundits, in a Hindu-majority India.

You are mainly (or, solely!) responsible for curtailing freedom of thought in this forum wherein OUTLOOK had blocked genuine debate and discourse in this very forum-typical "secular" reaction to "Moderate" Muslim anti-secular demands


Pal
Hong Kong, United States
Aug 10, 2008 12:00 AM
44
"Building temples and facilities for Hindu education of their children are good things, but emphasizing their Hindu identity instead of their identity as Indians, and identifying with Hindutva groups breeds chauvinism and jingoism, the kind we see in this forum." Anwar Patel/Ghulam Faruki

This is the agenda of "Secular" and Jihadi forces in India so Hinduism will have similar fate as those of numberless traditions and cultures and freedoms that were ethnically cleansed out by Islam in the Middle East, Central Asia, North Africa and Northern India

Pal
Hong Kong, United States
Aug 10, 2008 12:00 AM
43
Seema Sirohi

Your pseudointellectual and pseudosecular patronising rubbish is not going to stop or intimidate voices being raised to protest against second class treatment meted out to Hindus in their own (and the only)land. You are not capable of seeing blinding facts such as:

a. Partition of India into two Islamic and one secular (anti Hindu) states with total ethnic cleansing in the two Islamic states on the one hand, and especial privileges provided to the Muslims in the secular state (Haj subsidies, giving in to blackmail by the fanatics in Kashmir valley in the current Amarnath land issue, formal government level protest to the Dansih embassy about the cartoons depicting Mohammed, banning of books by Rushdie, and Nasreen etc.)

2. Total ethnic cleansing of Kashmir valley

3. Mass infiltration by Bangladeshis virtually changing the demography of some states like Assam and West Bengal.

The list can go on and on.

Come on. Shed some of the hypocrisy and double standards, and show a little honesty and integrity.
Pradip Singh
stafford, uk
Aug 10, 2008 12:00 AM
42
Pal writes:

"This is the agenda of "Secular" and Jihadi forces in India so Hinduism will have similar fate as those of numberless traditions and cultures and freedoms that were ethnically cleansed out by Islam in the Middle East, Central Asia, North Africa and Northern India"

This is the fate that 'intellectuals' like Seema Sirohi would love Bharat and Hindus to meet.
Pradip Singh
stafford, uk
Aug 10, 2008 12:00 AM
41
faruki

i have family in britain, usa, france etc.

they are very well assimilated in these countries. they respect the good qualities of these countries. i do as well .

we have no problems with these countries. have you read in usa or europe of indians makeing problems and getting disliked.

for a very long time the english media has been supporting muslims and criticiseing hindus.
all tv channels are doing the same. how has it helped, when hundreds of thousands of muslims
make a spectacle for stupid causes.

i am sore at how muslims have blackmailed the upa govt wrt tasleema nasreen, held demonstrations against all their hate objects,
disrearding hindu views.for a minority community you have some some cheek, just as you have in the west.

have you not seen muslims calling for murder of
britts in london city. i have not read melanie philips , but i believe she has called this city londonistan.
lalitmb
kalundborg, Denmark
Aug 10, 2008 12:00 AM
40
Pal/Bodepudi,

>> You are back with your pro-terrorist propaganda.

How does fighting a hate spreader like you become "pro-terrorist propaganda".
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Aug 10, 2008 12:00 AM
39
Pal/Bodepudi,

>> This is the agenda of "Secular" and Jihadi forces in India so Hinduism will have similar fate as those of numberless traditions and cultures.

Seems you have been trapped by your own lies! Happens sometimes to hate propagandists.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Aug 10, 2008 12:00 AM
38
Pal writes:

"This is the agenda of "Secular" and Jihadi forces in India so Hinduism will have similar fate as those of numberless traditions and cultures and freedoms that were ethnically cleansed out by Islam in the Middle East, Central Asia, North Africa and Northern India"

//This is the fate that 'intellectuals' like Seema Sirohi would love Bharat and Hindus to meet.// Pradip Singh

Precisely. Seema Sirohi has obviously not studied in depth of Islamic history in India, nor the texts and tenets of Islam that preach violence and hatred against the Hindu Unbelievers. Unless we confront the self-styled "secular", "intellectuals" and the jihadi fanatics, Islam will ethnically cleanse out ALL traditions out of India, save Islam, in a few decades, as happened in Turkey and 50 + other muslim countries.

Pal
Hong Kong, United States
Aug 10, 2008 12:00 AM
37
Pal/Bodepudi,

>> Seema Sirohi has obviously not studied in depth of Islamic history in India.

She has not been brainwashed by the same lies you have been brainwashed by, and which you are now trying to use on others.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Aug 10, 2008 12:00 AM
36
"Seems you have been trapped by your own lies! Happens sometimes to hate propagandists." Anwar Patel/Ghulam I Faruki

Telling truth as it is (regarding Islam) and asking of Hindus to be aware of dangers ahead is certainly not a "Hate" propaganda. This is precisely to counter the Islamic ideology from dangerously spreading in India.

If countering the Islamic jihadi terror in India in defense of the nealy extinct Kashmiri Hindus is a hate propaganda, then so be it. We take it as a huge compliment!

In TRUTH, Only Islam spoke the language of hatred, anger and intolerance almost exclusively, for over 13 centuries No one else deserves that credit despite your feverish and futile propaganda, in defense of Islamic terror in India

Pal
Hong Kong, United States
Aug 10, 2008 12:00 AM
35
"She has not been brainwashed by the same lies you have been brainwashed by" Anwar Patel/ Ghulam Faruki

Brainwashing is an Islamic ideology, infinitely worse than than that of Bolsheviks, Nazis, Khmer Rogues, Red Guards and others who were fortunately short-lived, though deadly and dangerous. Unlike all other iseologies in history, the Islamic ideology is most dangerous since it keeps growing even after 13 centuries, through terror and demographics
Pal
Hong Kong, United States
Aug 10, 2008 12:00 AM
34
Pal/Bodepudi,

>> Telling truth as it is (regarding Islam).

Is that what you are calling your hate propaganda these days? You give a damn about who dies either in Jammu or in Srinagar, as long as you can post your hate messages from Chicago.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Aug 10, 2008 12:00 AM
33
Pal/Bodepudi,

>> Brainwashing is an Islamic ideology...

And yet you are the basest practitioner of the art in this forum. You are truly a disgrace.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Aug 10, 2008 12:00 AM
32
faruki

if you are concerned about people dieing look
at pakistan-a brother muslim country.

what you are looking for is a status quo which serves muslims best.the numerous deaths after terrorist attacks leave you cold.you react only when protesting internment of innocent muslims.

it is seldom one sees such a man like you, so self centred behind muslim interests in nonmuslim countries. oddly muslim deaths at the hands of muslims are of no interest.

recent events show that plural societies do not
work.
lalitmb
kalundborg, Denmark
Aug 10, 2008 12:00 AM
31
"recent events show that plural societies do not
work." Lalit Bagai

The plural societies can not survive with the Muslim presence. Otherwise, they do well. Hindus, Christians, Jews, Sikhs, Jains, Buddhists, tribals, the agnostics and theists and atheists alike-can live in peace and harmony=wothout the Koranic ideology of Us Vs Them-Believers Vs Infidels. Koran repeatedly calls for the destruction of Unbelievers and Osama and the company faithfully follow it. At least Osama and the Al Queda and the Wahabis are sincere though a bloody and deadly. These "Moderate" Muslims are far more dangerous since Hindus are put to sleep by these trojans, in collusion with the "Seuclar" fanatics
Pal
Hong Kong, United States
Aug 10, 2008 12:00 AM
30
Pal/Bodepudi,

>> The plural societies can not survive with the Muslim presence.

The globe has shrunk. The world is a pluralist society. So where will you go, you Bodepudis and Bagais?
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Aug 10, 2008 12:00 AM
29
"The plural societies can not survive with the Muslim presence." Pal

"The globe has shrunk. The world is a pluralist society" Anwar Patel//Ghulam Faruki, et al

But Muslims live in a different world, created by the Koran, the equivalent of the Black Magic. Virgins in heaven are white in color, waiting for the faithful-the killers of Infidels-with wine (white again) flowing like a river!
Pal
Hong Kong, United States
Aug 10, 2008 12:00 AM
28
>> but emphasizing their Hindu identity instead of their identity as Indians

These are not mutually exclusive.
Al Bundy
San Francisco, United States
Aug 10, 2008 12:00 AM
27
but emphasizing their Hindu identity instead of their identity as Indians"

The same people were having orgasms when Omar Abdullah said he was a muslim and an Indian. A hindu on the other hand cannot say both.
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Aug 10, 2008 12:00 AM
26
faruki

hopefully there will still be countries like denmark, where people have similar views to mine,

get it checked by your friends in this country.

why do you favour plural societies. the reason i can think of is that you dont want to líve in
a muslim country.

danes are quite happy liveing amongst themselves.
denmark has been voted to be the happiest country in the world, with high level of prosperity, welfare, and freedom of speech,
which has not won many friends amongst muslims.
lalitmb
kalundborg, Denmark
Aug 10, 2008 12:00 AM
25
From IANS

[SIMI has terror links with Pakistan: Muslim body
Saturday August 9 2008 01:04 IST

IANS

NEW DELHI: The All India Minority Front on Friday said it had evidence that the outlawed Students Islamic of Movement of India (SIMI) had links with terror outfits in Pakistan.

"We have evidence of SIMI's links with Pakistani terror outfits and are ready to provide it to the central government provided we are assured security," Front national president S.M. Asif told reporters here.

"We have spoken to various Muslim people who have proof in this regard but they fear for their lives," Asif said.

"We want SIMI should be banned and punished. The minorities in the country are opposed to all sorts of militancy. Even then Muslims suffer whenever there is any terror attack in the country," Asif said.

Attacking Railway Minister Lalu Prasad and Samajwadi Party leader Mulayam Singh Yadav for demanding that the ban on SIMI be lifted, Asif said: "They are supporting the outfit only for political gains."]
lookout bug me not
mumbai, India
Aug 10, 2008 12:00 AM
24
Pal/Bodepudi,

>> But Muslims live in a different world...

It is the Bodepudis, the Bagais, the Ravis and the Ashoks who live in a different world; the world of hate, bitterness and revenge.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Aug 10, 2008 12:00 AM
23
>> The same people were having orgasms when Omar Abdullah said he was a muslim and an Indian.

I don't know if you did. I never mentioned his speech.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Aug 10, 2008 12:00 AM
22
faruki >>

NRI's in the West are the beneficiaries of tolerance and secularism of their new countries


And they are grateful for that, unlike the muslims who take pride in going against their adopted country. British muslims are case in the point.
chester pester
timbaktoo, timbaktoo
Aug 10, 2008 12:00 AM
21
I don't know if you did. I never mentioned his speech..

you were speechless and thoughtless in the orgasmic feeling.


chester pester
timbaktoo, timbaktoo
Aug 10, 2008 12:00 AM
20
Actually these articles are good. I got sick and tired of the "Indian secularists" that I moved from being a rabid "pseudo secularist" to a right leaning centrist.

The more people hear from the likes of Seema Sirohi, Biju Mathew etc.. the better.
Selvan
Boston, United States
Aug 10, 2008 12:00 AM
19
Perhaps, the time has come to distinguish betw NNRIs, nationalist NRIs, mostly hindus and ANRIs, anti-national NRIs, mostly non-hindus. Perhaps 'seema' sirohi, 'bhanu' pratap mehta and 'sumit' ganguli, being crypto-chr anti-hindus, probably, are only supportive of the latter category.

Soon after independance, mostly chr-converts from india went for higher studies in USA. But, most of them returned to india, probably to increase land-grab by churchians in india and co-work with them in conversions. Hindu indians started going to USA only in the late nineteen-fifties on assistant-ships and TCM scholarships.
Most of them returned to India to serve in emerging higher-educ institutes like the IITs. The good scholastic image created by these in their PG-programmes led to their gradual absorption into american universities, corporations and research instituions, in ever-increasing numbers, with special visa facilities. Altho non-resident in india, their minds were still resident in india, espcially after girls also started going, leading to some hindu temples being set up in most regions, taking strong interest in high-culture devotional music and dance, also taken for the hindu indians there. Slowly, they also became keen on improving and spiritualizing the worship patterns in indian temples also, besides helping hindu organizns in india in their resistance to land-grab and soul-grab by conversionist churchians, especially of dalits and tribals, declaring them not hindu at all in the first place. This explains the justifiable liason betw hindu NRIs and RSS/VHP, in india.

Slowly, the broadminded liberal non-churchian christians in US also started looking upon hindu indians as respectable humans with a spiritually valid religion. When this happened, the churchian NRIs have recently woken up to offer strong resistance hindu NRIs and their depiction of india as a nation with commendable history and prehistory, hinduism as a humanist faith, not a pagan mythology deifying stones, snakes and monkeys. The chr and crypto-chr ANRIs, from Kerala, TN, Guj & NE states have now started staying on in USA, prevailing on the churchian orgnzns there to oppose teaching of respectable indian history in american schools, or real hindu philo in american universities, besides supporting jislamism in India, defaming prominent and successful hindu-indian leaders like Modi, denying them visa, and so on.

The ANRIs in US have also worked with the pak lobby against the Bush-MMS deal for exemption to India from the nuclear-fuel apartheid. When they see their opposition failing, they are inducing their anti-hinduism 'secularists' like Seema Sirohi, to write articles derogatory of hinduism in india and NNRIs in America. But, the knowledgible citizens in india and USA are unlikely to be influenced by these writings.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Aug 10, 2008 12:00 AM
18
AIMF:>>>""We have evidence of SIMI's links with Pakistani terror outfits and are ready to provide it to the central government provided we are assured security"

If they present the evidence confidentially directly to the prime minister, secrecy and security for them may be assured.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Aug 10, 2008 12:00 AM
17
>>>"emphasizing their Hindu identity instead of their identity as Indians"

Hindu identity includes indian identity, especially for india-resident hindus, since name india is only the english-version of hindu-sthan, the sapta-sindhu aarya-varta bharata-kanDa. Hence, for hindus in india, indian identity is strongly present, doubly emphasized, faith-wise and nationality-wise.

Perhaps, non-hindus like AP, expect that, when hindus expect mosl and chr india also to feel indian, hindu indians should honour their relig rights to jihad-kill and force-conv their fellow hindus, offering no opposition for these valid religious activities of isl and chr. In such a situation, hindu-inds will only tell them, we don't mind your being non-indians, if only you do not demand voting rights, remain guest citizens until you leave for other countries more affiliated to your own respective religions.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Aug 10, 2008 12:00 AM
16
Ashok,

>>>> "NRI's in the West are the beneficiaries of tolerance and secularism of their new countries. "
>> But, Muslims are exmpted from such tolerance and secularism because for them, these are meaningless and not as per Q'ran and Islam.

Moron, does the word "NRI" apply only to Hindus?
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Aug 10, 2008 12:00 AM
15
Ashok,

>>>> Your solitary goal is to divide Indians against Indians and to discourage communal harmony."
>> That is Islamic theology and ideology and you Hindus shouldn't!!

Bodepudi is notoriously using this forum to spread hate. Are you now an official advocate for all the hate spreaders in this forum?
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Aug 10, 2008 12:00 AM
14
Ashok,

>> Building temples and facilities for Hindu education of their children are good things, but emphasizing their Hindu identity instead of their identity as Indians, and identifying with Hindutva groups breeds chauvinism and jingoism, the kind we see in this forum.

This can be said for Muslims too, but the article discusses temples and Hindutva. But your simplistic logic is that if Muslims are doing it then that is a sufficient answer, whether it is good or bad!
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Aug 10, 2008 12:00 AM
13
Obama's Advisor a Hamas supporter (CAIR)?

Ten days after the announcement of his appointment as the Obama campaign's coordinator for Muslim affairs, Chicago lawyer Mazen Ashabi resigned, saying he didn't want investigations into his past associations to become "distracting."

Mazen Asbahi became the campaign's coordinator of outreach to Muslims on July 26, but earlier this week a report by the Internet newsletter Global Muslim Brotherhood Daily Report was surfaced by the Wall Street Journal that linked Asbahi to Jamal Said, a man thought by the U.S. Department of Justice to be involved in racketeering and fundraising for the Palestinian terror organization Hamas.

A pair of Detroit Free Press articles this week also revealed Asbahi spent part of the day of his appointment at a fundraiser at the home of Dr. Jukaku Tayeb, president of the Michigan chapter of the Council on American-Islamic Relations, or CAIR.

CAIR has been accused in the book "Why We Left Islam: Former Muslims Speak Out", published by WND books, of being a co-conspirator in funneling $12 million to Hamas, operating as a front for the Muslim Brotherhood and extensive connections to terrorist organizations.

The Global Muslim Brotherhood Daily Report, which initiated the events leading to Asbahi's resignation, is published by a Washington think tank that tracks the Muslim Brotherhood, a world-wide Sunni Islam fundamentalist group based in Egypt.

Pal
Hong Kong, United States
Aug 10, 2008 12:00 AM
12
Pal/Bodepudi,

>> linked Asbahi to Jamal Said, a man thought by the U.S. Department of Justice to be involved in racketeering and fundraising for the Palestinian terror organization Hamas.

Past connections with Hamas and Hezbollah are very common. Only idiots like you would be surprised by them.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Aug 10, 2008 12:00 AM
11
faruki

you support hamas and hizbollah. you supported
the taliban when they were fighting the russians.
most muslims support the taliban against americans. i suppose you have the same view, though you may not admit it.

as i have said, i have moved on. i do not wish to
repeat the usual insults and abuses against islam
and muslims. however i believe that hindus and muslims in india, as in some other countries.
the concept of plural societies with a large muslim content is in tatters. books have been
published by several british, american and the french all highly critical of islam and muslims.

nonmuslims have a right to live peacefully , and if this requires exclusion of intolerant muslims so be it. the britts are entitled to live as britts, their traditional values, and so do the french. only those people who add to their societies are entitled to live there.

muslims do not permit any outsiders to live amongst them, if they disobey their traditions. kashmiri muslims have expelled the pandits.

i think the glass is now full. its time that
we hindus do what is required to further- and its
not for you to lecture us. after all you were silent when muslims expelled hindus from kashmir, when they bombed trains and temples.

i think you are a hypocrite, but it seems naive as you are you dont know it- or you will not
admit it. your moral stance is both opportunistic and comic.
lalitmb
kalundborg, Denmark
Aug 10, 2008 12:00 AM
10
"More than 50 per cent of the funds disbursed by the IDRF are sent to Sangh-related organisations whose primary work is religious 'conversion' and 'Hinduisation' in poor and remote tribal and rural areas of India" Seema Sirohi

Compared to Billions of dollars, annually, Saudis spend for converting Infidels into Islam by building the terror cells-Mosques and Madarasas-and through subsidizing large (tribal-sized) Muslim families, in India
Pal
Hong Kong, United States
Aug 10, 2008 12:00 AM
9
Namo,

>> look who is talking!. a jihadi muslim who supports CAIR & SIMI.

Will you ever stop lying. I have never supported SIMI. I support CAIR's civil rights advocacy of American Muslims. If they, as an organization, are funding any hate groups anywhere, I would resign. Zionist hate-websites are involved in a campaign of defaming CAIR, but all they could come up with was that it had supported the legal defense of some of its officers who had supported Hamas and Hezbollah!

>> "fanatics" are trying to do some thing good for hindusim.

VHP and Bajrangdal are hate groups with a sinister agenda. Sending funds to them is not "trying to do some thing good for hindusim."
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Aug 10, 2008 12:00 AM
8
Namo,

>> you don't have to brainwash anyone as far knowing the true nature of islam.

You do! Why else do you think so many hate propagandists like Bodepudi, and so many zionist hate-websites exist?
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Aug 10, 2008 12:00 AM
7
AP:>>"VHP and Bajrangdal are hate groups with a sinister agenda."

In that case, the agenda of jihadi-islam from its inception 15 centuries ago, should be characterized as 'extremely sinister'.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Aug 10, 2008 12:00 AM
6
Lalit,

>> you supported the taliban when they were fighting the russians.

You are such a liar! The Afghan freedom fighters, were supported by the US and even Israel. Who had heard the word "Taliban" then? A band of unorganized freedom fighters repulsing a mighty empire like the Soviet Union, and contributing to its eventual downfall, should earn anyone's admiration. What's the matter with you sanghi bigots?
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Aug 10, 2008 12:00 AM
5
///"More than 50 per cent of the funds disbursed by the IDRF are sent to Sangh-related organisations whose primary work is religious 'conversion' and 'Hinduisation' in poor and remote tribal and rural areas of India.///

What is wrong in funding religious work and conversion among tribals ?

Isn't this the modus operandi for the missionaries ???

I don't understand this particular insinuation by Seema. Just 'coz you put a few words in "quotes" does not mean they are wrong. Or, are you trying to say that "conversion" per se is wrong. If that be the case, BJP is right with its "anti-conversion" laws.

Or am I missing something, Seema ?
Koman Vijay
stillwater, USA
Aug 09, 2008 12:00 AM
4
Hey! Lunatic Fringe of this Forum, this article is about you guys!!!!
pkkumar
pune, India
Aug 09, 2008 12:00 AM
3
"This battle is joined by Indian secularists, liberals, leftists, academics and others abroad who resent the narrow and history-denying presentation of India. Groups such as Campaign to Stop Funding Hate, Friends of Indian Leftists and NRIs for a Secular and Harmonious India counter the onslaught as best as they can." SS


We belonged to such secular traditions as you mention here, for generations, in India and in the US. But now the organizations you mention are infiltrated, supported and funded by Muslim charities, and by Saudi-funded Wahabi cells. There is no room for freedom of thought and inquiry and rational debate in these fora if one queried the Islamic history in India and of Muslim demographics, based on FACTS-not on speculation or exaggeration.

1 Is it not true that counless traditions and cultures and freedoms were ethnically cleansed out by the Islamic ideology in the entire Middle East, North Africa, Central Asia and in Northern India?

2 Is it not a FACT that tens of thousands of Kashmiri Pundits were murdered, and 350,000 were made refugees in their own land, by the Muslim fanatics?

3 Is it not a FACT that many Indian cities are bombed by the Islamic terrorists, funded and supported by Al Queda and Wahabi fanatics, to terrorize Hindus in their home land so Islam can take over, again?

4 Is it not a FACT that the Christians were a majority in Turkey in 1914, abut now less than a mere .01%? Ethnically cleansed out? Why should it be different in Pakistan today, in Bangla Desh tomorrow, and in India the day after?

5 Please name a SINGLE Muslim country where ANY minority had maintained its ratio in total population undiminished, after a few decades?

6 Is it not a fact that in India the Muslim ratio in total population has at least doubled within a few decades? Does it not portend what happened elsewhere in the neighborhood?

7 Does Islam and pluralism go together? Why then these "freedom" struggles all over the globe?

8 Does Islam and Freedom of thought go together? Where is the proof?

9 Does Islam and gender equality go together?

10 Does not Koran teach to kill the Infidels and exhort its fanatic faithful to Discriminate against the Unbelievers, repeatedly? Can such a "Holy" book, a veritable terror manual, can ever be amended?

11 Hadn't Gandhi and Nehru, though peerless in their courage against the British imperialism, failed in confronting the far more dangerous Islamic imperialism?

Did they not cave in? I know they cettainly did cave in to Muslim terrorists during the partition.

I have had not a single contact with either the BJP or any of the the "sanghi" groups-not even once! These were my personal observations based on information I had gathered, first hand!

Seema:

Please answer the above queries, one by one.

Please don't let the Wahabi and the Al Queda funded Muslim groups in India(and in the US) divert us away from this mission critical debate
Pal
Hong Kong, United States
Aug 09, 2008 12:00 AM
2
An excellent article. This forum itself is a good example of what the author is talking about. NRI's in the West are the beneficiaries of tolerance and secularism of their new countries. One may think that they would foster the growth of pluralism and secularism in India. Instead they have been patronizing and funding hate groups. Building temples and facilities for Hindu education of their children are good things, but emphasizing their Hindu identity instead of their identity as Indians, and identifying with Hindutva groups breeds chauvinism and jingoism, the kind we see in this forum.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
Aug 09, 2008 12:00 AM
1
Pal/Bodepudi,

>> Seema: Please answer the above queries, one by one.

You are back with your single-issue hate campaign. Your solitary goal is to divide Indians against Indians and to discourage communal harmony. This is not the kind of prachaar India needs at this time.
Anwar Patel
Dallas Tx, United States
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